Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 10

[WindChime]

Links to earlier threads:

Madeleine Pt. 9:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52129


Madeleine Pt. 8: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51774

Madeleine Pt. 7: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51218

Madeleine Thrd.: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51205

Madeleine Pt. 6: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50759

Madeleine Pt. 5: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50571

Madeleine Pt. 4: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50250

Madeleine Pt. 3: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49855

Madeleine Pt. 2: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49652

Madeleine Pt. 1: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49339

[CaliKid]

http://lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=14231

"British sniffer dogs found dozens of forensic clues - including specks of blood, fibres and hairs - inside the apartment which were missed by Portuguese police."

Another criticism of the PJ. I don't think this evidence was missed by them. I think they simply wanted it analysed by their British counterparts so that the McCanns and their supporters couldn't claim it was a Portuguese smear tactic.

[CaliKid]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article2253547.ece

This has a thread of its own, but I thought I'd bring it over here since it discusses Madeleine and the use of an Amber alert-style system in Europe. IMO, the author is very uninformed.

[Trino]

I am writing from France and thought everyone might want a perspective from here. Madeline's picture was posted in Dinan. BBC showed the parents attending church. They were like celebrities. Everyone lined up to see them enter and exit. The Portuguese police said the parents are not suspects.

[CaliKid]

I am writing from France and thought everyone might want a perspective from here. Madeline's picture was posted in Dinan. BBC showed the parents attending church. They were like celebrities. Everyone lined up to see them enter and exit. The Portuguese police said the parents are not suspects.

The parents' behavior and the media circus surrounding them would almost be funny if this mess wasn't over a missing, presumed dead, child. Someone said you couldn't make this stuff up, and I agree. I can't get my head around how Madeleine has become such an industry. Does GM have so big an ego that he feels he's untouchable? Or did the McCanns take a terrible tragedy and tweak it to manipulate the masses and make money off them? And their daughter!

[fox1950]

When a child is missing, I think most parents reaction, without thinking, would be to make a lot of noise rather than being quiet as not to wake up the other children. To me, this would be a normal reflex to starting yelling the child's name and running around looking for the child. All else would be forgotten-especially the waking of the other children.

While I have not determined for myself what happened to little Maddie, I can say that some of the statements made sound very odd to me. Reminds me for the Ramsey case where Burke was supposely left alseep while the parents looked around and called 911. My first thought would be to wake up the other children, get them to safety, and if they were old enough (which the McCann's children were probably not) to start questioning the other children to see what they knew.

Little Maddie is/was a beautiful child. I hope she is alive.

One thing that comes to my mind was the little bear was put out of reach of Maddie by someone. Three year olds are not easy to contend with sometimes no matter if they are well adjusted children or not. I sometimes wonder if the bear was put on the shelve as a punishment to little Maddie by her parents and in an attempt to retrieve her bear she may have feel and hurt/killed herself.

Althought, I do have made a determination in the Ramsey case as to who did this horrible crime I am still at odds has to what happened to little Maddie.

[colomom]

copied from: http://crimeblog.us/?p=471

Chief Inspector Olegário of PJ to the portuguese TV, SIC:
(Q - Question) (A - answear)
.
____________________
Q: Why you say Madeleine is dead?
-
A: I say it is possible that Madeleine is died. But all of options still open.
-
Q: Why?
-
A: Because there are not sufficient evidences that Madeleine stills alive. That is why we did start investigate the option of her dead.
-
Q: Is normal only now detect the blod in the appartment?
-
A: Our forencics made a very good job. Is is the case where more evidences were collected. But we all were thinking in abduction like our first option. The dead of Madeleine was the last option, very remote.
When the evidences of finding Madeleine alive start decreasing, we start looking for the others options.
We were informed by British police of the existence of 2 snifer dogs that could detect evidences of dead people and mark dead corpses. We ask for them collaboration.
-
Q: But is normal only now detect blood. And the quimic products used before?
-
A: We were not investigate the dead of Madeleine but the abduction of her.
Is much more easy for this snifer dogs to detect this evidence of blood because was impossible to see by a human eye, smell and we were not investigating the dead but the missing of Madeleine.
-
Q: Her parents are suspect?
-
A: I said before. At this point of investigation, the parents of Madeleine and the friends of the parents are not suspects.
When someone is a suspect, is because there are evidences that appoint him.
At this point, if we dont classified that suspect as ARGUIDO, that is made by the the Public Ministry Procurator). The classification as ARGUIDO is used to protect the rights (Me: Our Constituition) of the suspect. (Me: Right to be questioned in the presence of a lawyer, controled inquiries, etc…).
At this point, neither PJ or the Procurator of the Republic made them as ARGUIDO, so there are not, at this point, suspects of nothing.
.

I believe that the last bit is very important when we hear that "The Portuguese police said the parents are not suspects."

I appears to me that the term "suspect" in Portugal would only apply if a person was placed in Arguido status. Therefore, suspect is the wrong word. I believe we would get a different answer if the question was asked like this: "Are the parents under suspicion?"

It is also interesting to note that once a person is placed under Arguido status they would then be entitled to the "Right to be questioned in the presence of a lawyer, controled inquiries, etc…" It occurs to me that the PJ would rather have the access to the McCanns that they now enjoy.

Make sense?

[colomom]

One thing that comes to my mind was the little bear was put out of reach of Maddie by someone. Three year olds are not easy to contend with sometimes no matter if they are well adjusted children or not. I sometimes wonder if the bear was put on the shelve as a punishment to little Maddie by her parents and in an attempt to retrieve her bear she may have feel and hurt/killed herself.

Intuition is a wonderful thing....:cool:

[angelmom]

...

Q: Her parents are suspect?
-
A: I said before. At this point of investigation, the parents of Madeleine and the friends of the parents are not suspects.
When someone is a suspect, is because there are evidences that appoint him.
At this point, if we dont classified that suspect as ARGUIDO, that is made by the the Public Ministry Procurator). The classification as ARGUIDO is used to protect the rights (Me: Our Constituition) of the suspect. (Me: Right to be questioned in the presence of a lawyer, controled inquiries, etc…).
At this point, neither PJ or the Procurator of the Republic made them as ARGUIDO, so there are not, at this point, suspects of nothing.
.

I believe that the last bit is very important when we hear that "The Portuguese police said the parents are not suspects."

I appears to me that the term "suspect" in Portugal would only apply if a person was placed in Arguido status. Therefore, suspect is the wrong word. I believe we would get a different answer if the question was asked like this: "Are the parents under suspicion?"

It is also interesting to note that once a person is placed under Arguido status they would then be entitled to the "Right to be questioned in the presence of a lawyer, controled inquiries, etc…" It occurs to me that the PJ would rather have the access to the McCanns that they now enjoy.

Make sense?

It makes perfect sense. I think the arguido status is probably similar to the point (in the US) where someone would have to be Mirandized before they could be further questioned.

IOW, LE might think the parents could have had something to do with it and question them, but they don't have to advise them of Miranda until they officially become suspects. Just b/c they have not been Mirandized does not mean they have been cleared of all suspicion.

That is what I think this interview is trying to say. There is no evidence at this point to incriminate OR exculpate the parents.

Good catch!

[sherri79]

if i read that link correct colomom it sounds like they did not really check for blood or any evidence she was dead at the start. they just took the parents at their word til things stopped adding up.

it sounds like you are right about the word "suspect".

[Jdee]

One thing that comes to my mind was the little bear was put out of reach of Maddie by someone. Three year olds are not easy to contend with sometimes no matter if they are well adjusted children or not. I sometimes wonder if the bear was put on the shelve as a punishment to little Maddie by her parents and in an attempt to retrieve her bear she may have feel and hurt/killed herself.

Good point and Madeleine dieing in the apartment alone by some accident and her parents discovering her deceased had not occured to me.
However what I have a hard time with here is the McCann's going to the Pope. If they are at all involved in their daughter's 'disapearance' I have a hard time getting my head around their visiting the Pope to ask for his prayers in finding their daughter. I can grasp them lieing to the public and the LE about the events of that night but I lean more to their lies having to do with fear of their losing their two remaining children for leaving them unatended, and not their involvement in Madeleine's disapearance, but I can't grasp them lieing to the Pope IF they did...

[CaliKid]

You have the parents insisting that their child was kidnapped, not merely disappeared. It's possible that they might even have "manufactured" evidence of this, such as insisting Cuddle Cat (which Madeleine wasn't even sleeping with) could only have been thrown up on the window sill by an adult. And you have the British ambassador calling up the Portuguese ambassador within hours to make sure the McCann family gets all the help they need. No wonder the PJ didn't look at the idea of her dying from the get-go.

[Jdee]

Cali was Cuddle Cat on the 'window sill'? I have not heard that.. I just heard it was high up on a shelf. If it was on a window sill could Madeleine or the perp have dropped it on their way out the window IF that was the route of escape? And of course that is IF she was taken at all...

[Texana]

Good point and Madeleine dieing in the apartment alone by some accident and her parents discovering her deceased had not occured to me.
However what I have a hard time with here is the McCann's going to the Pope. If they are at all involved in their daughter's 'disapearance' I have a hard time getting my head around their visiting the Pope to ask for his prayers in finding their daughter. I can grasp them lieing to the public and the LE about the events of that night but I lean more to their lies having to do with fear of their losing their two remaining children for leaving them unatended, and not their involvement in Madeleine's disapearance, but I can't grasp them lieing to the Pope IF they did...

But they wouldn't have necessarily lied to the Pope, it's not as if he asked them questions--rather, he was with them for a few minutes (probably attended by a cardinal or two or three) and he most likely just blessed them and prayed for them, etc.

Did they ask to meet the Pope by themselves? If they didn't, then they couldn't very well turn it down, could they? "Oh, no thanks, we don't want to meet with the Holy Father this week."

And like the Ramseys, what one parent knows or doesn't know, doesn't necessarily include the other parent.

[CaliKid]

Cali was Cuddle Cat on the 'window sill'? I have not heard that.. I just heard it was high up on a shelf. If it was on a window sill could Madeleine or the perp have dropped it on their way out the window IF that was the route of escape? And of course that is IF she was taken at all...

You may be right. I've heard two versions- shelf and high sill. But Madeleine's "favorite" toy hadn't even been given to her yet. She was sleeping with a blanket, not Cuddle Cat.

[Shazza]

You may be right. I've heard two versions- shelf and high sill. But Madeleine's "favorite" toy hadn't even been given to her yet. She was sleeping with a blanket, not Cuddle Cat.
Maybe because Madelaine was hard to get to sleep that night, she was being punished and therefore cuddle cat was put out of reach, or if she was sedated the parents could have put the cat up high and forgotten to put it with her when she did fall asleep..
The word suspect in an earlier thread was explained very well as to not put the McCanns offside, I think they are being scrutinised very closely.

[Elphaba]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article2253547.ece

This has a thread of its own, but I thought I'd bring it over here since it discusses Madeleine and the use of an Amber alert-style system in Europe. IMO, the author is very uninformed.


wow... couldn't agree with you more, Cali... the man seriously needs to research his topics before ranting against them.

[Salem]

A new link - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2259861.ece

This says they think some of the DNA tests have been sent to Portugal. How come we are not hearing anything? Does that mean the tests were inconclusive, the blood was not hers or they are playing things very close to the chest to see what the McCanns do next?

Salem

[Salem]

Here's a snip ~

The traces, which were not visible to the naked eye, were sent for testing at the headquarters of the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham. The first set of results from the tests is believed to have already been sent to Portugal.

The bolding is mine. These PLE are very hmmmmm, what is the right word? Sneaky?

Is there anything new from SOL or the Daily Notice?

Salem

[colomom]

Jornal de Noticias 15 AUG

There could be more suspects if the PJ prove Madeleines death

Alexandra Seródio, e Marisa Rodrigues

The exam results of the samples collected at the apartment where Madeleine disappeared last May 3rd, should be ready tomorrow according to the staff of the forensic laboratory in Birmingham. The revelation as to whether the blood found on the wall and on a curtain in the McCanns bedroom is or isnt Madeleines would depend on the PJ, as, according to laboratory sources, the English laboratory staff have no authorization to reveal that.

Though the results are awaited with some expectations on the part of the investigators, the PJ guarantee that it will not be decisive as per the investigation. According to Olegario Sousa, the spokesman for the PJ for this case, ‘there is other evidence to sustain the theory of the child´s death, besides the samples collected´. The investigation does not solely depend on the results that will come from England.

“Its not just these samples that support our theory that the child is dead, but a combination and cross referencing of all data, from the detailed scrutiny of the case and witnesses, together with the samples, ” explained the chief inspector to the Journal Nacional, admiting that the face to face meeting between Robert Murat – the only suspect of the case – and the three English friends of the McCanns who were also on holiday at the Ocean Club “ also could have contributed that this theory (that the child is dead) has credibility’.

The spokesman for the PJ said that the disappearance of Madeleine ‘ is complex and extremely difficult to investigate as it involves a child and therefore is an emotional issue for people’. Despite that, however, ‘never has there been collected so much evidence from a crime scene by trained teams such as in this situation’.

Questioned about the fact that only now blood samples were collected and two highly trained dogs from England (specialized in detecting blood and cadaver smells) were used, Olegario Sousa pointed out that initially the investigation was focussed on a disappearance – ‘ on a living child and not a dead one’.

With the possibility that Madeleine is dead, though the hypotheses of kidnapping for adoption or sexual abuse will still be followed up, Olegario Sousa admits the possibility that new suspects may be named.

As for the McCann couple and their friends who holidayed at the Ocean Club, the spokesman said that until this moment ‘all are witnesses.’

[Salem]

Thank You Colomom!:blowkiss:

Maybe something tomorrow. Here is a little snip from another thread in the missing forum. Thought I would post it here, because I learned something from it:

"Police executed a search warrant on Kynande's home and her family's vehicles, and took blood and saliva samples from both parents. They later stated that the Bennett residence had been "sanitized" with bleach, but they found transfer stains, which come from fluid spatters being wiped. The stains were linked to Kynande by DNA."

Bolding is mine. Apparently, the type of evidence they are looking at for Maddie has "come through" in other cases. Let's hope it comes through again.......

Salem

[Ang50]

Despite that, however, ‘never has there been collected so much evidence from a crime scene by trained teams such as in this situation’.



THis is a particularly interesting quote.

[CaliKid]

Hmmm. It sounds as if the face-to-face meeting yielded some clues for the PJ. Since it sounds like they have pretty much eliminated Robert Murat, I wonder if this means they suspect one of the other three present- Fiona Payne, Rachael Oldfield or Russell O'Brien.

[Shazza]

THis is a particularly interesting quote.
I think it is very interesting, if they have so much evidence, what are they doing with it in relation to the investigation, so far we have heard of no actual evidence but yet they are saying they have it. When are we going to find out what is going on. What evidence do they have. Hoping to hear soon.

[Trino]

We're in Paris for a day or two. Madeline was not on the news either last night or today.

My husband has an interesting perspective. He said there was no way a perp would enter an apartment, kill a child in that apartment, then remove her body. He said a perp would just take the child.

If the police are saying Madeline's blood was there and the thought was she was killed there, hmmmm.

[FlowerChild]

It isn't a LOT of blood - very very small amount. Maybe she bit the perp? OR It could be she struggled and was injured and bled or was slapped and her lip or nose bled or she was struck on the head to shut her up and it bled. It does not mean she was killed in the room. She may have died from being HIT on the head or suffocated by a hand over her mouth to quiet her but I do not believe it was the intent to kill her there - just immobilize her and silence her quickly.

I think the perp would have LEFT her there if she had been OBVIOUSLY killed in the room - he wouldn't bother to take a dead child out with him. Talk about getting caught "red handed" - lotta risk moving a dead child around where there are people everywhere - and no reason to do it. She wasn't going to be what he wanted dead, for sure. More likely he was in a panic to get her under control and get outta there and used a little too much force...which may or MAY NOT have resulted in her death within a short time or within days. The amount of blood does not point to a murder on the spot to me - too many other ways it could have gotten there.

My Opinion

[colomom]

http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.asp?id=254050&idselect=181&idCanal=181&p=0

(BabelFish Translation :rolleyes: ...best I could find at the moment)

Tomorrow it promises to be one day decisive to uncurl it of the inquiry to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. The results of the analyses to the blood found in the apartment of the Ocean Club of where Madeleine disappeared are waited this thursday for the Judiciary Policy.

This day will be able to show determinative for the couple, Kate and Gerry, and to the friends who had been of vacation in Lakes, therefore will be able to again come to be interrogated by the investigators of the PJ.

After the English dogs - two to springer spaniel -, specialists in detecting blood, having joined a spot suspicion in the apartment, the Judiciary Policy sent the vestiges for a laboratory in Birmingham, in England. The Forensics Science Service, organism that carries through the scientific analyses for the English policies, is specialized in determining the ADN in samples very spoiled. The vestiges had been sent during last week for England and the results are give to arrive.

The English couple, Kate and Gerry McCann, have, however, passed the days more collected, looking for to anticipate the habitual meeting with the policy, of form to see clarified some questions on uncurling of the inquiry. One of the subjects that they intend to see explained is the reason of Olegário Sousa, spokesman of the Judiciary Policy, to have given an interview to televisions BBC and ITN, in which assumed, for the first time, the hypothesis of Madeleine McCann, of four years, to be deceased. Friends next to the couple, had given account of the enormous insatisfação of the parents, for not having been informed before the Social Communication, also accusing the Portuguese policy with insensibilidade and delicacy lack.

The policy, however, as selected the cm, does not intend to satisfy the pretension of the parents. To that everything indicates, the investigators intend to have in its ownership the results of the analyses to the blood found in the detected apartment and other biológios vestiges in the inspeccionadas viaturas already before speaking with the McCann. In case that if it confirms the delivery of the same ones, already tomorrow, the Judiciary Policy will be able to call Kate and Gerry to be questioned officially.

It has been remembered that in the last meeting, carried through in the installations of the PJ, the couple it was interrogated separately by the investigators. The objectivo age to confirm the existence of contradictions in the couple in that it says respect to the hour where Madeleine disappeared e, over all, to clarify who was the last person to see the child with life and the one that hours. This meeting, in contrast of that it happened until then, was not become fullfilled in the English consulate in Portimão, but before in the installations the PJ. The director of the PJ of the Algarve, Guilhermino Incarnation, supervised these meeting.

Madeleine McCann disappeared more than has one hundred days of an apartment in the Beach of the Light, close to Lakes, where it passed vacation with the parents, who in the height had supper in a restaurant the 50 meters of the lodging. With the child they were two new gémeos brothers, Sean and Amélie, that slept when the parents had given for the lack of Maddie.

PJ POINTS BATTERIES WITH RESPECT TO DEATH OF MADELEINE MCCANN

The Judiciary Policy still did not discard the other hypotheses, but the thesis of that Madeleine McCann can be deceased, gains more force to each day that passes.

The spokesman of the PJ, Olegário Sousa, affirmed yesterday, in interview to the SIC, that the "possible death of the girl is the line that has more attention of the Judiciary Policy", underlining, however, that "none of the other hypotheses if finds locked up

Questioned on the reasons now to only give importance to this line of inquiry, the chief-inspector enhanced the sensitivity of this case: "Beyond the delicacy, because we are to say of a life human being, of a child. The time plays, clearly, against the Judiciary Policy. The inquiry goes collecting elements, goes working these elements, trying to get test. The determined height this hypothesis, face to the lack of indications in the other hypotheses, started to gain more consistency ".

m relation to the possibility of the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, to be suspicious in the disappearance, the chief-inspector of the Judiciary Policy came back to move away this hypothesis. "Until the o moment", he related Olegário Sousa, the parents and friends are not suspected. For already, the only one arguido and suspecting in the case is Rober Murat, a neighboring British of the aldeamento where she was the McCann family.

Another one of the questions answered for Olegário Sousa said respect to the delay in the discovery of blood in the room of the apartment of the Ocean Club. The spokesman of the Judiciary Policy guaranteed not to have existed imperfections, clarifying some details: "nothing did not fail. It is normal in ours and other countries. Although the death was one of the hypotheses, it was the one that was more far. My colleagues of the laboratory had carried through its work and, passed this time, the death started to gain force. In England these dogs exist, identified some places and them they had made its work ".

"TO THE FIRST SIGHT AN IMPERFECTION WILL HAVE EXISTED"

Jose Manuel Anes, Former-director of the scientific Laboratory of the judiciary policy, recognizes, while observing external, that the inquiry will be able to present imperfections Post office of the Morning
- the blood vestiges alone had been found reason now?
Jose Manuel Anes - It has some hypotheses, but seen for who it is in the exterior is a strange bit the vestiges not to have before been joined. But attention, we do not dominate the details of this inquiry. It has, of fact, a queerness on the part of the people and observers, but if they cannot make negative judgments. The Judiciary Policy has given tests of its ability and after more concrete data if only can make value judgments.

- This can spot the procedures of the inquiry and the proper PJ?
- This examination is of the responsibility of the laboratory of the scientific policy. We still do not know had an imperfection. To the first sight it seems to have had.

- One knows that the joined blood already very would be penetrated in the wall. This harms the resulted quality of the sample and consequentes?
- it is not by chance that the samples had been for the laboratory of Birmingham, in England. We have excellent analysts, but it has experience, devices and protocols of analysis for samples that more are spoiled. They, in this particular one, have this ' know-how '.

- But she continues to be possible to determine the ADN and to have unquestioned conclusions of this sample?
- She makes it difficult, but she can not harm. She continues to be possible to determine the ADN. She will be able to delay more time, because more adequate devices and protocols for spoiled samples exist. - But if she was more early... -... it would be simpler and the analyses could have here been done. But it is necessarily here that doubts are arisen. It has some queerness where the apartment has been freed of this safekeeping of conservation. I do not know if, the certain height, was abandoned the hypothesis of crime in the place.

- What it can happen if the ADN will not be of Madeleine?
- one will be of an English, will be more easy there, because they have a database of ADN. If it will not be of none of the familiar ones or friends and one will be of an English is possible that there if it arrives. - It is possible to say itself since when that blood is in the room? - I am not specialist in biology, but I think to be difficult. It is not impossible to determine the ADN, exactly with spoiled samples of blood. To say that it is has years one or two or if is contemporary, already I cannot say if it is possible.

- Already it will be known if the blood resulted of a aggression?
- Yes clearly. This is part of the ABC of the criminology. If the blood indicated haul, if it has direcção or if it is a circular spot. To this height already they know as the blood appeared there.

- the investigators must not have looked for soon for blood?
- I do not obtain to say as the inquiry of the scene of the crime was made. I do not know what it was made. Now, cause queerness that only appears now. Without knowing details we cannot make judgments, but that he is strange it is.

- How it analyzes this inquiry?
- we do not know if it had imperfections, but it has a bigger problem related with the procedures and organization. It is in the height to reflectirmos in the necessity to form Technician of the Scene of Crime and to think better about the coordination between the police forces.

- Which the importance of these technician?
- the preservation and examination of the crime scene ' Only ' make. They have great experience and they follow protocols of exhausting examination of research. That they keep the tests, that send them for the laboratories and prevent its contamination. They are basic in an inquiry.

PROFILE
Jose Manuel Anes, of 62 years, is one of the appraised criminal attorneys more of the Country. On to the masonry, Manuel Anes was supreme master of the Great Legal Store of Portugal. It entered 1978 in the pictures of the Scientific Laboratory of the Judiciary Policy, where it remained during about 20 years.

[colomom]

today in Diario de Noticias:

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/15/sociedade/pj_acredita_chave_os_amigos_mc_cann.html

PJ believes the key lies with the McCanns’ friends

The PJ’s spokesman for the Madeleine case has made several public statements yesterday, insisting that the possible death of the child is at this point the path the police authorities are giving more strength to.

At a time when the results of the lab tests from Birmingham, England, are awaited, which tested for DNA from the blood residues that were detected in the Ocean Club apartment, in Praia da Luz, close to Lagos, from where Madeleine McCann disappeared on May 3, Policia Judiciaria (PJ) continues to act discreetly on the terrain, listening to conversations in public places and observing the locals, as DN could fin dout.

Furthermore, the investigators hold “a lot of information” and apparently know who originated Madeleine’s death. The key to the mystery lies with the parents’ friends that were dining as a group that night. And the sea is still one of the possibilities to make the body disappear.

Chief inspector Olegario de Sousa, the PJ’s spokesman for the Madeleine case, has repeated the death theory, in an interview to SIC, four days after having admitted that scenario for the first time, to tv stations BBC and ITN. But “until now”, he observed, Maddie’s parents are not suspects in her disappearance. Olegario de Sousa said it was “perfectly normal” for the police to return to the resort’s apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays, in order to collect evidence with dogs that detect cadaver traces. He also guaranteed that “nothing failed” at the beginning of the investigation, and underlined the fact that the Scientific Police then collected the most elevated number of clues that were ever obtained in a case. Yet, it was only now that PJ was informed that there were dogs in England that were specially trained to detect the odour of cadavers.

Speaking to TVI, Olegario admitted that “new arguidos” may be constituted, and that status may fall on people that are presently witnesses in this process.

While they try to assimilate the scenario of their eldest daughter’s death, the McCann couple try to hide from indiscrete looks, as they chose the most expensive real estate area in Praia da Luz, which is mostly inhabited by british citizens, many of which are retired. Located in Luz Parque, and with a view on the sea, the Vista Mar villa, where Madeleine’s parents and her twin siblings have been staying for over a month, “is worth 800 thousand euros”, and was built “less than ten years ago”, according to a real estate agent in the area.

[dannyodie]

seems like I had read somewhere in all this info that it looked like a attempt was made to wipe blood splatters from a wall, I don't know if the blood was visible to le or if they used luminol to investigate if blood could be found, to me, if it had been wiped away, then it would really be out of the ordinary for a kidnapper or adbuctor to take time to clean blood up, it just wouldn't make since to take that time to remove blood when kidnapping a child, but if a parent or gaurdian did something to her and got to rough, then cleaning up the blood would be more in the normal habit of someone wanting to cover up a crime.

[Jdee]

Now newspaper Diario de Noticias has quoted a police source as saying: “We know what has happened to Madeleine but we do not know the reason why she died — whether it was an accident or murder. Nothing is being ruled out.”

[Morag]

Here's a new story about the babysitting issue:

http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/331952-100796-0-Crecen-las-sospechas-contra-los-padres-Madeleine

My translator is on strike, but apparently the hotel's Silvia somebody (I remember she was involved with the search that first night) has said that the McCann's declined the sitter service even though she told them that burglaries were common. And that they declined it that "same night", meaning May 3. Now I wonder if they actually declined it at night--post 6PM--or just on that very day. I would also wonder if it was customary for Silvia to offer the service to each family, or was this because of problems with the McCann children on previous nights? Can you imagine turning down a sitter if you have just been informed that there are burglars at work in the resort? ("Oh, no, burglars only want valuable items, so they won't harm my kids even if they do enter the apartment")

[meowy]

Ohhh.... what if this happened as a possible event chain:

They went out to dinner but didn't check on the kids like they claim they were doing (this even would cover if they did check). If they sedated Maddie even in the slightest, she may have been in an inbetween state (I get that with my medications) and thought she was still fully awake, capable of playing like normal. If she's not usually under sedation, she wouldn't understand the feeling probably.

Perhaps she started jumping up and down on the bed, slipped, fell, and that'd account for a little blood. It'd also account for the sniffer dogs 2 hour or more mark, if no one checked on her.. or if they did, they may have seen rumpled blankets and thought she was still there in bed rather than on the floor.

Maybe she was tossing her own toy around too, jump up and down on the bed, throwing her cat so it flies as well. Super CuddleCat gets stuck and she can't reach, maybe she tried to jump up there. Not out of a tantrum, but just fun to begin with and later to rescue her kitty.

Just an idea, not fact in any way. Just something I was thinking of today when I was standing on the bed to change a lightbulb this morning and had to resist the urge to jump up and down on the bed.

[CaliKid]

DIÁRIO DE NOTÍCIAS - 15/08/2007
Society
THE INVESTIGATION ON THE CRIME SCENE
José Manuel M. Anes
Former specialist in criminal law at the PJ Scientific Police Laboratory

Madeleine´s case has been targeted by conspiracy comments, inducing that the British Government asked ours (and our police) to exclusively follow the abduction hypothesis. Yet, don't confuse between Sky News and other media and the British police. It is actually the British police and the scent dogs, put at the Pj´s disposal and trained to trace non-fresh blood and the scent of a dead body, which led to the discovery, three months after the little girl´s disappearance, of blood traces on a wall and a curtain in the McCanns´apartment. This not only contradicts the abduction conspiracy theory but also presents a delicate task to our PJ as well as to those, like myself and a lot of others, who have always maintained our ability and hard work and have no reason to change our minds.

In any case, even more than underlining possible failures and especially considering that the analysis of the discovered traces of blood is still being done in Birmingham, Britain without knowing to whom they belong (and if they are relevant to the case), the interesting point lies on thinking about a present-day vogue (through a television series), which is the scene of the crime.

The fundamental point of a criminal investigation is based on the protection and examination of the crime scene and the consequent gathering of material evidence. If we have excellent Criminal Investigators (as we do have), excellent analysts at the Scientific Police Laboratory (as we do have), but without specialists exclusively trained for the Scene of the Crime, it will be difficult to achieve a good job. The CSI TV series has implied some confusion in the public minds, since criminalists ("forensics") there not only perform the examination of the crime scene but also the criminal investigation and the contacts with the forensic laboratory for analysis. This is not valid nowadays, at least in the countries with a modern police team. Thus it is necessary to have specialised tecnicians in protecting, in registering (drawing, picture, video, etc.) and in examining the scene of the crime (research of various items and traces), who should be neither laboratory analysts nor Criminal Investigators; obviously there are already fingerprints specialists, photographs, artists and laboratory criminalists, but we are talking about another kind of professional. They are called, in the English-speaking countries, as "crime-scene officers", police officers whose skill is in the investigation of a crime and are notified with the shortest delay to immediately come to the scene, the "first responders" who arrive early and are first informed of the facts (in Portugal, normally the GNR and PSP) and who expert isolate the scene of the crime.

This is a situation that requests the greatest coordination between the police and the security forces in Portugal, and deserves the highest integrity of all, starting from the governmental authorities supervising those bodies. But it is also a concern of the justice, since if the scene of the crime has not been duly protected, everything that has been collected can be questioned (putting forward possible contamination, for example), and in the same way, if a material evidence has escaped from the examiners, the investigation of the crime can dramatically be jeopardized. All these precautionary measures (and other ones) are fundamental to ensure the necessary preservation of the material evidence which a good justice is based on. It is therefore necessary for us to provide good technicians for the scene of the crime exclusively dedicated to that task to be performed with professionalism and according to the worldwide stated examination procedures of the crime scene (either on closed spaces or in the open air).

[rashomon]

Good point and Madeleine dieing in the apartment alone by some accident and her parents discovering her deceased had not occured to me.

But in that case, how should the parents have had the opportunity to remove the body from the apartment? And didn't they take turns with their friends at the tapas bar to check on all their kids?

Time line questions:
- When was Madeleine last seen alive in public?
- When did the McCann's go to the tapas bar?

[Morag]

http://mccannphotoblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/ocean-club-complex.html

Here's a link to some pictures that I hadn't seen before. There are several aerial views of the Ocean Club- the one with big red labels makes it very clear how far away the apartment was, and also how the apartment was located on a rather busy road.

[CaliKid]

http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/331952-100796-0-Crecen-las-sospechas-contra-los-padres-Madeleine

"The search for a new personality in the desperate search of the small British four-year-old is complicating even more the McCanns' situation.

The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the same night on which Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but they rejected that". Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. Batista confirmed in an interview with the website Globo.com that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again. Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.

"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "the parents of the girl that night were very unconcerned", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder.

[mjak]

Why did the parents leave the children alone? It is not normal, safe or acceptable to leave 2 and 3 year old children alone. What explanation did the parents give. The explanation I heard is that they did not trust strangers However, this explanation is nullinvoid by the fact they left the chidren in the care of strangers in the daycare during the days. So the quesiton I would like an answer to is why did they leave them alone? okay I have another question , question number 2 why did they think this was okay to do?

mjak

[colomom]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/16/nmaddy116.xml

Madeleine sniffer dogs detect scent of body

A British sniffer dog detected the scent of a body inside the apartment of Madeleine McCann, according to Portuguese police......

[CarpeDiem]

Mixed News:

'Blood not Madeleine's'

August 16, 2007 08:05am


MISSING UK girl Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, police said today as tests revealed blood found where she was sleeping was not hers.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence, including traces of blood found in the Praia da Luz apartment where the McCann family had been staying, and the detection of the scent of human remains there by British sniffer dogs.

Mr Sousa also revealed that new official suspects, known as arguidos, may soon be named.

His revelation comes on the same day as a report that the blood found in the bedroom where the four-year-old had been sleeping was not hers.

The Times reported that forensic results showed the blood came from a man.


(more)

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22254160-5008620,00.html

[colomom]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=475623&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Madeleine 'died the night she vanished' says police chief

Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, a Portuguese police chief has said.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence.....

[colomom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2267836.ece

DNA test boosts parents' hope that Madeleine is still alive

Traces of blood discovered in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was sleeping on the night that she disappeared do not come from the missing girl, The Times has learnt.....

[colomom]

Very interesting that while they are reporting that the DNA tests shows that the blood found was not Maddy's (thank you God) they still say they KNOW that Maddy was killed that night.

What else do they have?

Tomorrow, we may find out....

[CaliKid]

colomom, who is reporting this? Everything I've been reading at Aussie Mike's today says the tests won't even be back until tomorrow morning by phone, mid-afternoon or the next day in writing. I somehow doubt that a British newspaper got their hands on top-secret DNA reports about the most famous little girl of the 21st century. I'd be willing to bet that it's all made up and just typical UK spin.

[ceeaura]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=475623&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Madeleine 'died the night she vanished' says police chief

Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, a Portuguese police chief has said.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence.....


This part caught my eye:

Mr Sousa also revealed that new official suspects, known as arguidos, may soon be named. Portuguese newspapers speculated that friends who were on holiday with Kate and Gerry McCann could be made "arguidos", but only over alleged discrepancies in their witness statements and not as suspects in Madeleine's disappearance on May 3.


And this



The dramatic police comments came as Kate McCann revealed for the first time that she and Gerry have discussed returning home without their daughter.
She said: "We know we will be going back and I guess one day we will wake up and it will be right.
"We never thought we would go before Madeleine came back. Now we just don't know but we have our two-year-old twins to consider. "I can't imagine how we came out as a family of five and could be going back as a four."



Very interesting.I wonder if there will be a person or two arrested within the next couple of days??

[colomom]

colomom, who is reporting this? Everything I've been reading at Aussie Mike's today says the tests won't even be back until tomorrow morning by phone, mid-afternoon or the next day in writing. I somehow doubt that a British newspaper got their hands on top-secret DNA reports about the most famous little girl of the 21st century. I'd be willing to bet that it's all made up and just typical UK spin.

I have to agree with you Cali...it is the famous "muzzled" UK press reporting...I am not at all convinced. I would feel alot better if the test were done here in the US ;)

I have read (in the above links) that the blood evidence is insignificant....

Time will tell....

I LOVE the PJ :dance:

[Texana]

I think the fact that the massive reward has been unclaimed is probably the biggest factor to me, in pointing to no good news about Maddie.

The thing I still don't understand is the unlocked door. Did the McCanns really, really leave the door unlocked?

How could they be so sure none of the children would try to open the door? That is my biggest unanswered question.

[CaliKid]

I've heard rumors from posters in Portugal (and that's all they are- rumors) that the door wasn't left unlocked but the McCanns had to have some kind of explanation for how someone could get into their apartment.

[twinkiesmom]

The oversedation theory is gaining steam.

[CaliKid]

Does anyone have a link for that website that you can run an interview through to determine when someone is lying?

[ceeaura]

Take a look at this Headline for tomorrows Daily Express...

http://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper/view/2007-08-16

Wish I could read the article.Its probably another one of those "headlines" meant to get you to buy their paper and then the article doesn't really tell you anything.

[KR2tonenow]

Mixed News:

'Blood not Madeleine's'

August 16, 2007 08:05am


MISSING UK girl Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, police said today as tests revealed blood found where she was sleeping was not hers.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence, including traces of blood found in the Praia da Luz apartment where the McCann family had been staying, and the detection of the scent of human remains there by British sniffer dogs.

Mr Sousa also revealed that new official suspects, known as arguidos, may soon be named.

His revelation comes on the same day as a report that the blood found in the bedroom where the four-year-old had been sleeping was not hers.

The Times reported that forensic results showed the blood came from a man.


(more)

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22254160-5008620,00.html




It's about time they came up with this information! Hopefully, they can get a match on this arguidos!!

[docwho3]

Wednesday, August 15 11:47 pm
". . . Blood traces found in the bedroom where Madeleine McCann was sleeping the night she was snatched were not hers, it has been reported. . . ."
". . . Detectives may soon name new official suspects in the case, it has been reported.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa is said to have not ruled out the possibility that friends of the family, from Rothley, Leicestershire, could be connected to Madeleine's disappearance. . . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070815/tuk-traces-of-blood-not-madeleine-s-6323e80_1.html
**********
Monday, August 13 02:25 pm
". . . Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, one of the detectives leading the inquiry, told the BBC on Saturday that Madeleine's parents are not considered suspects, despite media speculation. . . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070813/tuk-uk-britain-mccann-fa6b408_1.html
************
Saturday, August 11 07:45 pm
". . . Mr Sousa also said the young girl's parents were not being considered as suspects despite reports in Portuguese papers this week suggesting they were now under suspicion. . . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070811/twl-police-admit-madeleine-may-be-dead-41f21e0_1.html

[philamena]

So now what? The LE officers imo buggled this case from the get go. Now where do they begin again? Do they re question everyone who was on vacation with Maddie's family that week?

Have the parents taken a LD test? Anyone know?

[Pinkhammer]

Friends from Rothley...would that be Russell O'Brien and his bimbo Jane?

Jane is the one who made up the story implicating Murat. Pointing the finger at someone else. Covering for Russell? Does Russell like little girls???

Wasn't Russell fired from one hospital?

I guess we'll learn soon who the new suspects are.

[Texana]

I've heard rumors from posters in Portugal (and that's all they are- rumors) that the door wasn't left unlocked but the McCanns had to have some kind of explanation for how someone could get into their apartment.

With no signs of forced entry, either the door was left unlocked or it wasn't an intruder.

Interesting.

It would make more sense that they would lock the door and then pass the key/card off to whoever's turn it was to do Baby Check.

[CaliKid]

Mathew Oldfield was the one who is under investigation for a wrong diagnosis. But IMO, two of the three couples have acted suspiciously.

Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien also left their children unsupervised, and according to RO, his youngest daughter was throwing up that night. Why?

The elderly woman with the group (Fiona Payne's mother) said the parents were only checking on their own children, but Mathew and Rachael Oldfield had a babyphone service for their child. So why did he go back to the apartment if he'd already made other arrangments?

[philamena]

.....

Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien also left their children unsupervised, and according to RO, his youngest daughter was throwing up that night. Why?

....

Man oh man does that ever distress me. Why? Why would people leave their child ALONE, AT NIGHT, IN A STRANGE PLACE????:silenced: It's inexcusable.

Why leave a sick child? Why leave a sick child alone in a strange place WITHOUT a parent or a responsible adult present?!?!?! It's infuriating! :doh:

I'm leaning more towards the parents either being the biggest dumb azzes in the world or parents that are involved in their child's disappearance. :(

[CaliKid]

Me too, philamena! I'm convinced the parents are lying. They've been lying from the very first.

[Texana]

Me too, philamena! I'm convinced the parents are lying. They've been lying from the very first.

I agree. The question is, are they lying about big things, or little things that they think are big.

I wonder why any doctor would leave a vomiting child, knowing the risk of aspiration--unless he happened to have something like Phenergan on hand, gave the child a dose, and then left the child sleeping. Again, something left out of the story, if he did.

[AfterMidnight]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/16/nmaddy116.xml

Madeleine sniffer dogs detect scent of body

A British sniffer dog detected the scent of a body inside the apartment of Madeleine McCann, according to Portuguese police......

The body may have been the one whose blood was found in the apartment. God knows what goes on in "rentals".

[AfterMidnight]

The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the same night on which Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but they rejected that". Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. Batista confirmed in an interview with the website Globo.com that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again. Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.

"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "the parents of the girl that night were very unconcerned", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder.

Burglaries? What kind of security, if any, did this place have?

Does the hotel call all their guests offering child-minding services?

And. . .WHY was the room used by the McCanns closed, then opened for 15 days, then closed again?

Something doesn't smell right.

[philamena]

I agree. The question is, are they lying about big things, or little things that they think are big.

I wonder why any doctor would leave a vomiting child, knowing the risk of aspiration--unless he happened to have something like Phenergan on hand, gave the child a dose, and then left the child sleeping. Again, something left out of the story, if he did.

Calikid I appreciate your response and your agreement. ;)

Texana,
THAT is a wonderful question! One that I seriously think you should send into the whatever agency is handling the case. Why would a dr. ignore a sick child?

You all are really on the ball about this case. :clap:

[CaliKid]

The body may have been the one whose blood was found in the apartment. God knows what goes on in "rentals".

I would hope a resort would tell the truth, but Ocean Club stresses that as far as they know, there has never been a death in the apartment.

This brings up something else. The apartment owner kicked the McCanns out in early July (I think) because he was going to sell it. So it makes me wonder why it was put on the market.

[CaliKid]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3725

I found this really interesting article about the Madeleine Media Circus. It's kind of long and written by the same doofus who disagrees with using an Amber alert-style system in Europe, but IMO it asks many of the same questions we have about the McCann's behavior and how it all got out of hand.

[sherri79]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3725

I found this really interesting article about the Madeleine Media Circus. It's kind of long and written by the same doofus who disagrees with using an Amber alert-style system in Europe, but IMO it asks many of the same questions we have about the McCann's behavior and how others worship them. i have heard given enough time even a monkey can write shakespeare.

[CaliKid]

i have heard given enough time even a monkey can write shakespeare.

True, but this was a good article. Maybe he was sick the day he wrote it.

[Shazza]

Just got online havent caught up with the latest, so this snippet has probably already been posted.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=286852

[Tristan]

Can someone tell me why the police believe that Madeleine died the day she disappeared?

What makes them think that?

[rashomon]

Take a look at this Headline for tomorrows Daily Express...

http://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper/view/2007-08-16

Wish I could read the article.Its probably another one of those "headlines" meant to get you to buy their paper and then the article doesn't really tell you anything.
The Daily Express is more a tabloid type of newspaper. I wouldn't trust it farther that I can throw it.

[rashomon]

Can someone tell me why the police believe that Madeleine died the day she disappeared?

What makes them think that?
That would interest me too.

[Salem]

All the news is beginning to sound the same, again, but here are a couple of new links (at least i think they are new)

http://www.ukparentslounge.com/index.php?pg=104&utwkstoryid=1045&title=Blood+not+from+Madeleine+McCann&ind=0

~snip~
But a spokesperson for the lab in Birmingham says The Times story is premature. "This is an ongoing investigation and we can't make any comment. However, we are surprised at The Times piece," the spokesperson is quoted as saying to the AFP news agency.

~snip~
Over-zealous reporting of leads has led newspapers, especially in the UK, to paint a very confusing picture of the Madeleine case.

Confusing? Who’s confused?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html in_article_id=475704&in_page_id=1770

~snip~
Her evidence is understood to corroborate the McCanns' movements in the hour before the disappearance was discovered.
So someone is agreeing to at least a portion of the timeline that night……

[englishleigh]

Friends from Rothley...would that be Russell O'Brien and his bimbo Jane?

Jane is the one who made up the story implicating Murat. Pointing the finger at someone else. Covering for Russell? Does Russell like little girls???

Wasn't Russell fired from one hospital?

I guess we'll learn soon who the new suspects are.

Jane is also the one who claimed to have seen the man carrying the sleeping child, and the Wilkins man who was out strolling with his infant said he never saw any such man...they were supposedly on the same path at about the same time. Jane and Russell were both also late to dinner......

[Shazza]

Have caught up on the information posted here, and I also would like to know why the LE think Madelaine died the night of her disappearance, and also why a doctor would leave a child unattended whilst sick.

I have said before that the LE know more than the media are telling us, but are keeping it to themselves so it does not hinder the case. It has been stated that they have an abundance of evidence that we havent heard about, as we have not seen it written or said in interviews what this evidence is. We just have to wait until more information of the evidence found and the re interviews with the McCanns, their friends and any other witnesses is released.

The outcome for Madelaine does not look good, but until I hear otherwise I still pray for the safety of Madelaine.

[Jdee]

"The results of tests on blood traces found in the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared are not yet known, contrary to some newspaper reports."...
"Samples are still being tested at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
This is despite some newspapers claiming forensic tests showed the blood was not Madeleine's."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1280082,00.html

so the results are NOT in yet!

[CatLynnette]

Can someone tell me why the police believe that Madeleine died the day she disappeared?

What makes them think that?



I know that the links to these articles had already been posted here earlier this month, however, these articles may help answer your question.


Link:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8144

The First Post
August 8, 2007

<snip> Quote:
"Intercepted telephone calls and emails between the McCanns and their friends have "confirmed the death of Madeleine" say police, according to one Portuguese newspaper today. The intercepts are said to have been made in a joint operation conducted by Portuguese and British police officers.
Diario de Noticias reports investigators have already concluded that the missing four-year-old was killed in the apartment where she slept in Praia da Luz."

AND

Link:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8102

The First Post
August 6, 2007

<snip> Quote:
"It follows revelations, 95 days on from her disappearance, that specially - trained British cocker spaniel sniffer dogs had located the smell of a dead body in the Ocean Club apartment - only possible if a cadaver had been left there for two hours.
According to Portuguese news reports, the police have virtually abandoned the kidnap theory or any hope that she may still be alive..."


Keep in mind that at 10:00pm Kate McCann supposedly announced to her friends at the Tapas Restaurant that Madeleine was gone/taken.

edited to add: There is some discrepancy as to when Madeleine was last seen alive by someone other than her parents and siblings.

[colomom]

http://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gifhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gifhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gifhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gifhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gifhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/318.gif

[CatLynnette]

There is this article which says that Madeleine was last seen at a restaurant with her parents at 6:30pm on the evening of her disappearance which was captured on the restaurant's security camera.

Translated from Portuguese:

<snip> Quote:
"The periodical disclosed the McCann couple ate snacks with Madeleine at 18h30 the evening of the disappearance of the girl, in a restaurant at the Beach of the Light.

The fact alone was known by the Portuguese Judiciary Policy because the owner of the restaurant asked them if they would have interest in reviewing the video made by the security cameras of the establishment.

After seeing the images, the policemen had interrogated the parents of the girl, questioning the reason for which the parents had forgotten to mention this fact in their previous declaration.

The daily Portuguese affirmed that the declarations of the friends of the parents and the parents of Madeleine are full of contradictions and omissions.” - Gazeta do Povo Online August 12, 2007

[colomom]

in Diario Economico today:

http://diarioeconomico.sapo.pt/edicion/diarioeconomico/edicion_impresa/politica/pt/desarrollo/1026552.html

“Death is on the table and we must analyse it”

The leader of PJ guarantees he was not pressured and that the means that are being used in the investigation are enough.

author: Miguel Costa Nunes

The result of the analyses on the blood that was found in the McCanns’ apartment may be made public today or tomorrow. In this exclusive joint interview to Diario Economico and spanish daily ‘El Mundo’, Alipio Ribeiro says he is “optimistic” on the possibility of finding Madeleine McCann. But he recognizes that PJ has not found a motive for the crime.

How much has Maddie McCann’s case investigation cost so far?
We don’t have numbers. We don’t make that accountability for this type of investigation. We invest the necessary means in each moment. Sometimes more, sometimes less, according to the moment of the investigation.


When will the results of the analyses that were performed on the collected blood be made public?
We don’t have a specific day and that depends, as you know, on the labs. They may take 7, 10 or 12 days. That depends on the quality of the collected residues. We may as well receive inconclusive results. I may be here talking to you, and in two hours I may come to know the results. At this moment, we have no results yet.

What’s the next step after the results?
The next step depends on the results. On what the results point to.

For example, if it’s Madeleine’s blood, what will happen?
We will see. We have to function according to those results. It’s evident that we are not going to report on what we are going to do, at the moment. The results are important in order to configure the scenario we’re going to have, and according to those we will later determine what are the more adequate procedures.

How many agents are involved in this investigation?
I don’t want to be redundant, we have the means that are necessary at each moment. I am saying this for a reason that I think is understandable. An investigation of this type is not about the involvement of a great number of people. This is not a case of persecution, of street, of assault, of arresting a bandit that involves a lot of police forces. In this case, we have pure investigation. All we need is people who think the problems out well. And under that aspect, we’ve had everyone. It’s obvious that in the first stages, when there were searches, there was a lot more people than now. But there are always people available, if necessary, to develop those investigations. If we need more people. I would always say that Poirot acted alone, and he was effective. It’s not an issue of numbers. At this moment, it’s not even an issue of means.

In this case, has PJ had people who think well?
I hope so. I think so. It’s been obvious since the beginning that this is not a simple case. It’s manifestly complex. And it’s been asumed as such.

Are you ready for a failure?
It’s evident that the word failure cannot be used in this case. The police must be optimistic and I believe that work that is serious, effective and systematic, will lead to results sooner or later. The issue is not failure of results, it’s failure of procedures. If tomorrow I discover that the procedures were not good, then we have a failure. I’m optimistic…

Do you believe you’ll find the child?
I’m optimistic that we will understand what happened.

How optimistic?
I’m optimistic that we may find [Maddie], I am.

Very optimistic?
Optimistic. These things always have a personal aspect. There are more optimistic persons, but it’s obvious with police work, that if you’re not optimistic and you don’t have the courage to advance, we’ll give up too early. There are cases that are rapidly solved, others are really complex, and this is a complex case.

It is known that two specks of blood were found in the apartment. Where were they exactly?
I am not going to speak about that. It’s been made public that some residues were found. But I’m not telling you where, the law does not allow me to. And that is the secret that is important to the investigation. Those are elements that will be valued in due time. According to the result of the analyses.

Are Madeleine’s parents suspects?
They were never constituted arguidos, and they’ve never been suspects. We don’t use that language of speaking of suspects, because if we direct an investigation against someone, we must constitute those persons as arguidos. Those are the rules.

And why weren’t they informed that the possibility of death has become the priority?
They have been informed. It must be said that an investigation like this one has all slots always open. I mean, we don’t close this one to open that one. We work on a net of possibilities. New possibilities appear and the investigation is always dynamic, because reality is also dynamic. And we follow the dynamics of reality, but we don’t close compartments. We must focus more attention here and there. We keep excellent relations with the parents, it could not be otherwise.

But the PJ’s spokesman, Olegario Sousa, said the hypothesis of death has intensified.
It’s a hypothesis, which is understandable to everyone. But I cannot dialogue with the parents. It’s a possibility, there is always a possibility. We’re not saying she’s dead. It’s a possibility we have to work on. It’s on the table and we must analyze it.

Does Policia Judiciaria have an idea where Maddie is?
No.

Is Robert Murat the suspect?
Yes, because he was constituted an arguido at a given moment. The investigation was directed.

Is he no longer a suspect?
That cannot be said. As long as the inquiry on him is not closed, he is an arguido. The most important thing for us, today, is to have exact results. To combine that with other elements. There is an issue that is the continuous re-evaluation of everything that was said, because we must evaluate, in the dynamics of the investigation, the past with the present. What we read from the past, may be completely different from what we read today. There are new elements that bring another focus and another light.

Were there contradictions in the statements?
We will see. The contradictions themselves are not very valuable. They must always be evaluated in certain moments, so we can see their relevance. I myself may say one thing today, another thing tomorrow, but those are issues, aren’t they… The question is: it would be totally unjustified that I as the director of Policia Judiciaria, or the police as an institution, would live off rumors and would support rumors. We don’t do that, we should not do it, and we cannot. The idea I have is this: determination, rigor and above all, serenity. We will see, because reality is always more surprising than imagination – I read this somewhere – but the truth is I’m optimistic and I should be optimistic. We need that, and that is what we work for, to clarify a situation that is difficult. Especially when we don’t have an objective motive. There could be a motive of money, of revenge, of jealousy, of hatred, but we don’t have one. I hope some day we can discuss that issue here. My optimism is indeed visceral, but that’s mainly because I’ve been around for so many years.

There has been criticism of the Judiciaria. Has the media pressure conditioned the investigation?
I think all these situations have high and low moments But we should not let that ascending and descending curve influence us, when those phenomena are seen from the outside. It’s obvious that people would like there was the possibility of an open, transparent investigation, where everyone knew what is going on, but legally that is not possible. And really it’s not convenient. That would be disastrous to the investigation. We always have a lot of people producing opinions on this matter.

Did that affect the image of Judiciaria at any moment?
I don’t think so, I don’t think so. People understand that the work that is done demands for safety. It’s a safe, rigorous and, above all thing, serene work.

But there are many policemen telling things to journalists, which are then published. Is there an intention behind the information that has leaked?
The idea I have is that occasionally there are some information leaks that would be important they would not exist. But that’s a human factor we have to deal with, and until this moment it has not harmed the investigation.

Did information leaks help the investigation?
They did not help either.

Was there never an intention to direct the investigation?
No. In this investigation, we never leaked information in order to produce certain results.

Are we close to the end of this investigation?
In these situations we should level our expectations low. We must keep in mind this is not easy, because we still have a long way to go, and it would be foolish if I said we’re close to the end of this investigation.

Will it be possible to point to a culprit?
We’re working for that.

What support did PJ have from portuguese and english governments, and from the english police?
We have had full cooperation from the english police, since day one. And we need that cooperation, as many of the people who surround this process are english. We also have been recognized as having an excellent collaboration. We don’t hide anything from those who should know about these things. We’ve hidden some things from the journalists, naturally.


Did PJ receive pressure from the english government, from the english embassy in Portugal, from the family, or from anyone else, in order to follow the kidnapping theory that existed before the death theory?
No. I never received any indication from whomever about that issue. The english police never exercised any kind of influence on the portuguese police and I never received from anyone, or from the british ambassador, any indication that this is the way this is, or it should be done that way. And the same applies to the english police. We always discussed with british police what we were doing wrong. Please tells us what we are doing wrong, here. And they never actually told us you’re doing this or that wrong. The relationship has been excellent, and a good example of cooperation between both states.

It was published that the ambassador of England in Portugal called you and asked you to investigate the kidnapping. How did that happen?
There is a basic issue in this investigation: we don’t work on speculations. We’re in the domain of fantasy and romance. The ambassador didn’t even phone me. I talked to him on the following day, for the first time.


Does PJ have the means it needs to do their job?
Yes. This type of investigation is mainly an investigation in which the human factor is utterly important. It’s obvious that there are aspects in which some foreign polices have more experience in certain areas. If you tell me the spanish police is more experienced in dealing with terrorism, I have no doubts about that. It’s natural.

Is there a memory of such police involvement as we see being applied on the Maddie case?
I don’t think so.

A huge mediatism was generated. Why?
You’ll have to ask your colleagues. These are foreigners spending vacations in Portugal and because of that it has an international dimension. Maybe that is the case, and not really because this is the ‘silly season’. To say that would be in rather bad taste.

The english press accuses PJ of being at the same point as in the beginning of the investigation. Is that the case?
We are not at the same point.

What is the PJ’s success rate in these cases?
Our success rate in these cases is high. If we look at it from the abduction point of view, there are not many abductions is Portugal. We have many family abductions, of a father who takes the child away from the mother, to hide him. We have those situations. Not even those are very frequent in Portugal. Because we’re a small country, because there’s few of us, because we’re a parish and we’re very close to each other. For that reason and no other.

Does that confirm information that the data will be compared to the entire english population at Praia da Luz or at the Ocean Club, where the family was staying?
No. That is not possible. England, in terms of DNA data bases, is the most advanced country. They own a very complete database. We don’t have one, and neither does Spain. But we don’t imagine that comparison with all the english citizens.

Does that information indicate that the suspects could be british and not portuguese?
We don’t distinguish between nationalities. That could lead to xenophobe judgments. I’m not going that way.

[CaliKid]

Alipio Ribeiro said a lot of nothing about nothing. He's very closed-mouthed about this case and that's probably because of the way they do things in Portugal, but it doesn't help us to understand. With a little less secrecy, I wonder if it would've been solved faster.

[ella's mom]

Mathew Oldfield was the one who is under investigation for a wrong diagnosis. But IMO, two of the three couples have acted suspiciously.

Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien also left their children unsupervised, and according to RO, his youngest daughter was throwing up that night. Why?

The elderly woman with the group (Fiona Payne's mother) said the parents were only checking on their own children, but Mathew and Rachael Oldfield had a babyphone service for their child. So why did he go back to the apartment if he'd already made other arrangments?

Just curious, what is a babyphone service? Does that mean the Oldfield's had a sitter at their apartment, or is it something else and I am not understanding the term?

[Jdee]

MCCANNS: WE DID NOT GIVE OUR CHILDREN MEDICATION




Thursday August 16,2007

By Martin Evans in Praia da Luz


"THE parents of Madeleine McCann have denied giving their other two children drugs to stop them waking up on the night of her alleged abduction.

Police in Portugal are baffled why Madeleine’s twin brother and sister never stirred the night she disappeared from her holiday apartment.

Detectives had hoped that the two-year-olds Sean and Amelie could be key witnesses in the case and provide vital clues about their sister’s fate.....

"But reports in Portugal claimed detectives had abandoned plans to try to coax information gently out of the toddlers – because they slept through the whole ordeal.....
There has been growing speculation in the Portuguese media that Madeleine and the twins may have been administered drugs by their parents, who are both doctors, to help them sleep.
But yesterday the McCanns categorically denied that they had sedated their children.
A source close to the family said: “They did not give the children sedatives that night. They have never given their children sedatives.’’
It is understood that the couple have never given their children anything stronger than the over-the-counter painkiller Calpol, the infant form of para­cetamol.
Reports in Portugal claim that the twins did not even wake when part-time GP Kate, 39, found Madeleine missing – and repeatedly screamed out her name in desperation. And they slept on after the McCanns raised the alarm and a frantic search began involving their friends and other ­holidaymakers.
The twins were eventually carried out of the apartment still sleeping by two police inspectors, it was reported.
Officers were so stunned that they even asked the McCanns if they had given the children sedatives to help them sleep, it is claimed.
The couple insisted that the children had been tired & exhausted after a long day in the sun. Police have also asked local pharmacies to check their records for anyone buying sedatives in the days before Madeleine vanished.
Chemists were asked if they had sold insect sprays containing the knock-out drug in the days leading up to Made­leine’s disappearance.
Frustrated detectives are now resigned to the fact that two “witnesses” who were in the same room as Madeleine at the time when they believe she died saw or heard nothing.
A police source said: “It is a remarkable aspect of the investigation. Madeleine was asleep in a bed between the twins’ cots – one on either side.
“They were just a few feet away, yet they never woke up.
“We had hoped officers could have discovered information from the young ones in a gentle way.
“It might have been possible that they could have unearthed things children may even have tried to bury in their subconscious – things they never even thought they’d witnessed.
“But in this case there was nothing. The twins simply carried on sleeping, even through all the noise and the con­fusion during the desperate search that followed.
“The two children were asleep when police arrived and were removed from the apartment by two inspectors.
“Because of this they were unable to be of any use in our investigations.’’
Kate and her consultant cardiologist husband Gerry, also 39, believe that Madeleine was abducted from the apartment while they dined in a tapas bar and is still alive.
They think the twins simply slept through the abduction.
A family friend said: “They didn’t give the children anything to help them sleep. The youngsters must have just been exhausted after a long and exciting day on holiday.
“In some ways it may be a blessing they didn’t wake.’’
Last week the McCanns were forced to take the twins out of a creche facility at the holiday resort after other parents “became upset” at the daily Portuguese media scrum outside the babysitting service at the Mark Warner Ocean Club...."

[BethInAK]

“They were just a few feet away, yet they never woke up.
“We had hoped officers could have discovered information from the young ones in a gentle way.
“It might have been possible that they could have unearthed things children may even have tried to bury in their subconscious – things they never even thought they’d witnessed.
“But in this case there was nothing. The twins simply carried on sleeping, even through all the noise and the con­fusion during the desperate search that followed.
“The two children were asleep when police arrived and were removed from the apartment by two inspectors.

I totally think this is possible - I see kids passed out in their strollers and in shopping carts all the time. What I don't see is that Kate didn't grab them and shake them awake to make sure they were ok. Perhaps she just checked their breathing (I do this oh, five times a night STILL).

[CourtScribe]

The public/PJ tide has definitely turned against the McCann's. They can no longer deflect the questions posed to them; so, pr manager, Justine McGuinness says today, "They do not want to be disturbed."
For 3 months, McCann's have sought media attention/donations; now that the heat is on pointing more toward them and their friends involvement in daughter's disappearance, "THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE DISTURBED"!
Within the next week, there will be major changes in the Tapas9' status.

[angelmom]

I totally think this is possible - I see kids passed out in their strollers and in shopping carts all the time. What I don't see is that Kate didn't grab them and shake them awake to make sure they were ok. Perhaps she just checked their breathing (I do this oh, five times a night STILL).

While I know what you mean about some kids who are hard sleepers, I still find this hard to believe. I mean, both of my sons can sleep through a LOT! My middle one even rolled out of bed onto the floor one night during a minor earthquake and slept on. BUT, that is when all else around them is pretty normal. Even a kid in a stroller or with a younger, crying sibling is not being screamed at...the noise is more of a dull roar.

I would think that the sheer panic and number of strangers who were in that apartment would have woken even my deepest sleeper. And I agree with Beth in AK that even if it hadn't, my first reaction would have been to shake them awake to check on them and ask, "Where's Madeline???" Even knowing they probably wouldn't be able to answer, I don't think I could stop myself from trying to ask them.

Too bad no one thought to snag a diaper from either of them. It could have been tested.

[CarpeDiem]

While I know what you mean about some kids who are hard sleepers, I still find this hard to believe.

I agree, I find this UNBELIEVABLE. And in the shoes of the investigators, I would find the twin's state alarming, enough to warrant a trip to the hospital. They weren't infants afterall, where that deep sleep while being picked-up and staying asleep amongst the situation would be more understandable and believable.

[Jdee]

The public/PJ tide has definitely turned against the McCann's. They can no longer deflect the questions posed to them; so, pr manager, Justine McGuinness says today, "They do not want to be disturbed."
For 3 months, McCann's have sought media attention/donations; now that the heat is on pointing more toward them and their friends involvement in daughter's disappearance, "THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE DISTURBED"!
Within the next week, there will be major changes in the Tapas9' status.

Yep.. and probably why they suddenly are talking about leaving Portugal when they have said all along they would not leave...

[meowy]

I thought they fired Justine McGuiness last week and hired a guy? I forget his name now. Weird that she speaks for them again.

[mjak]

All I can say if I discovered my 3 year old missing from her bed and I believed she had been abducted the scream I would let out would deafen anyone else sleeping in that room. It is hard to rationalize that the twins never woke up during all of this commotion. However, it is possible, so therefore really isn't something that one can draw any conclusions from. However it does add one more notch in the suspicion cloud surrounding the parents.

mjak

[CaliKid]

Just curious, what is a babyphone service? Does that mean the Oldfield's had a sitter at their apartment, or is it something else and I am not understanding the term?

I'm not positive, but it sounds like some way to turn a telephone into a baby monitor.

[CaliKid]

MCCANNS: WE DID NOT GIVE OUR CHILDREN MEDICATION

Thursday August 16,2007

By Martin Evans in Praia da Luz

"THE parents of Madeleine McCann have denied giving their other two children drugs to stop them waking up on the night of her alleged abduction.

Police in Portugal are baffled why Madeleine’s twin brother and sister never stirred the night she disappeared from her holiday apartment.
~snip~
Officers were so stunned that they even asked the McCanns if they had given the children sedatives to help them sleep, it is claimed.

I agree with the above posters and find this very hard to believe. Even if they had an exhausting day, you're talking about Kate noticing that Madeleine is missing three hours after they went to bed. That's followed by 2-5 hours of lots of strange people in and out of the apartment, bumping and moving stuff, yelling and calling for Madeleine. Even the most deep-sleeping child would wake up.

I wish LE had been suspicious about the sleepiness and had drug tested the twins that night.

[CaliKid]

I thought they fired Justine McGuiness last week and hired a guy? I forget his name now. Weird that she speaks for them again.

David Hughes.

[Shazza]

Im with some of the other posters about the children being sedated, even if there is no evidence that they bought some at the chemists in Portugal they could have brought something with them.

[englishleigh]

If there was sedation, I think Russell O'Brien was involved in it. There was something someone found about him having some kind of background in that...maybe he's an anesthesiologist? I can't remember.

Anyway...what about this? What if Russell sedated the children at the parents' request with meds he brought with him. What if RUSSELL was the one who later found Maddie dead on his turn to do the children check, and he (and Jane?) did away with her without Kate and Gerry's knowledge, to cover themselves??? So the McCanns really do think she was abducted but Russell (and Jane?) know the truth...and the reason Cuddle Cat was found on a high shelf was that Russell panicked when he found Maddie dead and he put CC out of the way in his haste to do something with Maddie's body?

JM HUMBLEST O, of course!!!

[colomom]

http://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper/view/2007-08-17

Hmmmmm, another "tease"....grrrrrr

[colomom]

If there was sedation, I think Russell O'Brien was involved in it. There was something someone found about him having some kind of background in that...maybe he's an anesthesiologist? I can't remember.

Anyway...what about this? What if Russell sedated the children at the parents' request with meds he brought with him. What if RUSSELL was the one who later found Maddie dead on his turn to do the children check, and he (and Jane?) did away with her without Kate and Gerry's knowledge, to cover themselves??? So the McCanns really do think she was abducted but Russell (and Jane?) know the truth...and the reason Cuddle Cat was found on a high shelf was that Russell panicked when he found Maddie dead and he put CC out of the way in his haste to do something with Maddie's body?

JM HUMBLEST O, of course!!!


You know who is a trained anesthesiologist...Kate! I believe your theory is also possible, except for the Cuddle Cat part...IMHO. If you are in a panic...you would not stop to do ANYTHING...know what I mean?

The Cuddle Cat up high is either a complete fabrication or it was done to antagonize Maddie.....therefore....??

I am in a mood tonight....:mad:

[CaliKid]

If there was sedation, I think Russell O'Brien was involved in it. There was something someone found about him having some kind of background in that...maybe he's an anesthesiologist? I can't remember.

Anyway...what about this? What if Russell sedated the children at the parents' request with meds he brought with him. What if RUSSELL was the one who later found Maddie dead on his turn to do the children check, and he (and Jane?) did away with her without Kate and Gerry's knowledge, to cover themselves??? So the McCanns really do think she was abducted but Russell (and Jane?) know the truth...and the reason Cuddle Cat was found on a high shelf was that Russell panicked when he found Maddie dead and he put CC out of the way in his haste to do something with Maddie's body?

JM HUMBLEST O, of course!!!

Kate McCann trained as an anesthesiologist too but gave it up and became a GP so she could combine her career with motherhood.

[englishleigh]

Kate McCann trained as an anesthesiologist too but gave it up and became a GP so she could combine her career with motherhood.

Ahhhh!! I didn't realize that....hmmmmm. Veddy interrrrresting.

[englishleigh]

You know who is a trained anesthesiologist...Kate! I believe your theory is also possible, except for the Cuddle Cat part...IMHO. If you are in a panic...you would not stop to do ANYTHING...know what I mean?

The Cuddle Cat up high is either a complete fabrication or it was done to antagonize Maddie.....therefore....??

I am in a mood tonight....:mad:

OK..forget the Cuddle Cat...it was just a thought that popped in...I could see the perp grabbing it up out of Maddie's arms or from beside her and just tossing it onto a shelf or just anywhere, it landing on the shelf....but anyway...I just have this creepy feeling about RO. His 18-mo-old daughter throwing up and him just leaving her alone, sick like that, doesn't wash with me. Maybe she wasn't sick, and that was just his excuse for being away...

[mic730]

I have felt so bad thinking the parents were involved.
I hope I am sooooooo wrong thinking that.

[englishleigh]

I have felt so bad thinking the parents were involved.
I hope I am sooooooo wrong thinking that.

Me, too, Mic.....me, too. I hope we're all wrong. :(

[Jdee]

You know if my child turned up missing... and I had all my friends in my apartment scrambling around looking for said child.. and then I call the LE.. and they too come in and scramble around looking.. and in this chaotic process my two small children slept on peacfully and never woke NOT even when the LE picked them up to carry them out... I would think that perhaps something was wrong with them. The idea that Kate didn't or G didn't makes me think they KNEW why those 2 kids didn't wake up so didn't check them.
My children are grown and I too recall that they could sleep through a storm or me vacumming... BUT a room full of hysterical people looking for a vanished child?

[CaliKid]

Very good point, Jdee.
The parents carelessly leave their 3 children every night to go out to dinner- it doesn't make sense.
Three parents leave the Tapas bar at almost the same time to check on their children, making it impossible to have the quiet dinner they risked their kids for- it doesn't make sense.
KM goes and finds Madeleine missing and returns to the Tapas without the twins- it doesn't make sense.
The whole group runs amuck in the apartment, contaminating the crime scene- it doesn't make sense.
Cuddle Cat is found on a high shelf or sill, not where it was left and the parents don't mention it to LE- it doesn't make sense.
The twins sleep through everything and don't even wake up when they're carried outside, but the parents aren't concerned- it doesn't make sense.

Nothing makes sense unless the unthinkable is true.

[Salem]

You know if my child turned up missing... and I had all my friends in my apartment scrambling around looking for said child.. and then I call the LE.. and they too come in and scramble around looking.. and in this chaotic process my two small children slept on peacfully and never woke NOT even when the LE picked them up to carry them out... I would think that perhaps something was wrong with them. The idea that Kate didn't or G didn't makes me think they KNEW why those 2 kids didn't wake up so didn't check them.
My children are grown and I too recall that they could sleep through a storm or me vacumming... BUT a room full of hysterical people looking for a vanished child?

I have to jump in here about the sleeping kids........ It is odd that the twins did not wake up. It is odd that Kate did not wake them up. I realize they are only 2, but they were in the same room. It would be instinctive to wake them up and ask them where Maddie was, you wouldn't be able to help yourself.

And then, it is LE that picks them up and removes them from the room...., excuse me, but you touch my two remaining children and I will break your arms. What is this about? People clammering all over the place and complete stangers remove your children from the room. I don't care if they are wearing uniforms...... it would take a whole lot of explaining, etc. to get me to let you take my children, even if one of them was not already missing.

K & G are full grown adults. They have both been to college, medical school and practiced in the real world. They must have some smarts, right? Their actions are the actions of MORONS. Their story is so unbelievable it is hardly worth commenting on. Which, to me, means they are hiding something. Something they do not want to be held accountable for. Even if K & G did not harm Maddie, I firmly believe they know who did and for some reason they are protecting that person.

Watching K's face in the recent photos and videos, I see an expression that gives her away. In one photo she is looking at G and I would bet money she is thinking "they don't believe us anymore."

In a recent video, it appeared that K's right and left profiles were at war. Her left profile was following what G was saying, while her right was saying "it's time to throw in the towel and tell the truth." Very interesting... I have never noticed a face before that appeared to be telling two different stories.

I really wish and encourage both G & K to move forward and tell the truth, no matter how ugly they think it is. If they did not harm Maddie initially, then their lies are harming her now. And what good does it do to protect someone? It won't bring Maddie back nor will it erase the pain of her loss. And if this really is all about collecting money for the Maddie fund, then shame on them. They are selling out their daughter so that they can live some sort of high life.......

All my opinion of course.

[Salem]

I posted twice - so deleted this one :)

[CarpeDiem]

You know if my child turned up missing... and I had all my friends in my apartment scrambling around looking for said child.. and then I call the LE.. and they too come in and scramble around looking.. and in this chaotic process my two small children slept on peacfully and never woke NOT even when the LE picked them up to carry them out... I would think that perhaps something was wrong with them. The idea that Kate didn't or G didn't makes me think they KNEW why those 2 kids didn't wake up so didn't check them.
My children are grown and I too recall that they could sleep through a storm or me vacumming... BUT a room full of hysterical people looking for a vanished child?

Your post is so on the money.

Seems the twins do have a story to tell about that night, just not in the way it first appeared.

If Madeleine was put to bed that night, she wasn't awake and didn't ask for Cuddle Cat, Kate has been telling little lies and half-truths, all those are being exposed and who is quiet now - Gerry.

[Texana]

Very good point, Jdee.
The parents carelessly leave their 3 children every night to go out to dinner- it doesn't make sense.
Three parents leave the Tapas bar at almost the same time to check on their children, making it impossible to have the quiet dinner they risked their kids for- it doesn't make sense.
KM goes and finds Madeleine missing and returns to the Tapas without the twins- it doesn't make sense.
The whole group runs amuck in the apartment, contaminating the crime scene- it doesn't make sense.
Cuddle Cat is found on a high shelf or sill, not where it was left and the parents don't mention it to LE- it doesn't make sense.
The twins sleep through everything and don't even wake up when they're carried outside, but the parents aren't concerned- it doesn't make sense.

Nothing makes sense unless the unthinkable is true.

Exactly!

Nicely summarized.

[AfterMidnight]

KM goes and finds Madeleine missing and returns to the Tapas without the twins- it doesn't make sense.
The whole group runs amuck in the apartment, contaminating the crime scene- it doesn't make sense.

Sure it does. Most likely they've read about the Ramsey case.

But, don't get me wrong. I have no idea whether or not the parents are guilty of "whatever", or the child was actually abducted. I'm still not leaning either way.

[BethInAK]

I have to jump in here about the sleeping kids........ It is odd that the twins did not wake up. It is odd that Kate did not wake them up. I realize they are only 2, but they were in the same room. It would be instinctive to wake them up and ask them where Maddie was, you wouldn't be able to help yourself.


My son is 26 months and he could absolutely tell me if someone came in the house and he saw it. He can describe all sorts of things that happened at school during the day - what he had for lunch, if he got a time out and why, who else got time outs and why, who he played with - i'm certain if he saw a sibling kidnapped or aa strange person in the room he would be able to say that. He might not be able to give a descriptoin but he would be able to let us know.

[calgirl]

Hi, I have never posted here but I read every day. I have to chime in and say that I believe that while the McCann's did not mean to hurt Madeline, I think they did cause her death. I believe what happened was, in order to go out and have dinner with their friends, they gave their children something to sleep (Benadryl or something else that would make them sleepy). They accidently gave Maddie an overdose and she died. That would also explain why the twins did not wake up while all this commotion was going on in the apartment. They were drugged up. What puzzles me however is that they must have moved her body out of the apartment before dinner. There was just no time to do it during dinner or after the discovery that she was "taken". I don't understand how they were able to go have dinner with their friends and stay so composed, knowing their child is dead?! Maybe that explains the frequent getting up to "check on her", so they could compose themselves!

[Reannan]

The twins are a big part of the mystery in this awful case. The biggest hit to my hinky meter, is Kate leaving them after she realizes Madeleine has been taken! WTF??? I would have been terrified to leave them. But then you have to imagine being the type of parent who goes on vacation with your children, and leaves them every night to go party. Maybe it was just a natural reaction. I am not trying to be facitious with that statement. Think about it. If you have left them every night, you really don't have the instinct to protect them like the rest of us do. That doesn't in itself make the parents guilty of murdering their child. It certainly makes them guilty of endangering their children, but Madelene's disappearance makes them guilty of that, and they will have to live with it forever. If they are innocent, they are the most wretched souls on the planet. Generally speaking, these types of tragedies are soothed with time. In this case, I think time will make matters worse.

[CaliKid]

calgirl, the time of death, the composure of the parents and how they would've moved her are the biggest stumbling blocks of the entire case.

[Schmerty_Jones]

For some reason this leaaves me with a SADNESS I will never be able to get over. ! Something that Parents would have & do is just not there.!!!

[docwho3]

Thursday, August 16 09:35 pm
". . . Mr Ribeiro said he was still "optimistic" about solving the case and added that "the parents have never been suspects". . . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070816/twl-strong-theory-madeleine-is-dead-41f21e0_1.html

I wonder why L.E. keep stating this in almost every news article where senior L.E. are quoted. You would think by now that they would begin to say "yes the parents are suspects now that we believe the little girl is dead." if they really suspected the parents. They would seem to have little to gain at this point in trying to lull the parents to complacency. The parents must know from all the media hype what much of the world thinks and so can't really be lulled much anyway.

[Shazza]

Nothing about this case makes sense to me anymore, but I truly believe the parents are involved, how I dont know, my thinking is mirrored by many posters here.
Please god let the truth be known as to where Madelaine is and what happened to her. I personally cannot take much more of this, it saddens and sickens me to the core.

[Lurker]

My 4 year old will sleep through a lot. I made it a point to never have it "too" quiet when he was a baby. He'll sleep through the vacuum, the phone ringing, the dogs barking etc. On that same note, he'll also wake up, albeit groggily of he's moved and he always wakes up if there's a different sense of atmosphere in the room ie: fighting, excitement, etc.
I think the twins were drugged but it can probably never be proven now unless the parents are caught on tape buying the medicine there. If they brought it from home, it'll never be proven. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the parents won't submit the twins to hair analysis. LOL