Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 11

[Jeana (DP)]

Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate McCann ---------------------------------- Everyone else
Gerry McCann

8:45 Russell O’Brien, Matthew and Rachael Oldfield arrive at Tapas Bar.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Jane Tanner
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Fiona Payne
Russell O’Brien --------------------------------- David Payne
Rachael Oldfield -------------------------------- Dianne Webster
Mathew Oldfield? (May have arrived later)

8:55 David and Fiona Payne arrive at Tapas Bar. David says all members, including Mathew, Russell and Jane, were there. Rachael Oldfield claims Mathew arrived a few minutes after the Paynes. No specific mention is made of Fiona’s mother, Dianne Webster, or Jane Tanner’s arrival.

Kate
Gerry
Russell
Rachael
Mathew
Fiona Payne
David Payne
Dianne Webster? (Assume she arrived with her daughter/son-in-law.
Jane Tanner? (No arrival time given)

9:00 Mathew Oldfield checks on the children- he went back to apartments to do first check 5-15 minutes after his arrival time, depending on witness statements.

At Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate ------------------------------------------- Mathew
Gerry
Russell
Rachael
Fiona
David
Jane?
Dianne

9:05 Gerry leaves to check on children- this is corroborated by acquaintance Jeremy Wilkins who encounters Gerry while out walking his own child- they talk for a few minutes. Neither of the men see Jane Tanner (nor her, them) when she leaves for her child-check five minutes later, even though they are using the same narrow street to and from the Tapas Bar. Nothing is said about whether Gerry or Jane cross paths with Mathew Oldfield. Gerry will later report seeing light in the bedroom and the door open but assumed all was okay.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew (not back yet)
Russell ---------------------------------------- Gerry
Rachael
Fiona
David
Dianne
Jane?

9:10 Jane Tanner is now checking on children- the 3rd person in ten minutes. If each parent was responsible for own child-check, this makes sense. But, when you take into account that Mathew Oldfield claims to have checked on the McCann children later on, it doesn’t. Also, has Jane already joined them at the Tapas Bar and left the group to check, or was her first appearance at the Bar after she checked the children? According to reports, one of her daughters was vomiting.
Jane, Gerry and Mathew have never said whether they ran into each other coming and going between the Tapas Bar and the apartments that night. But if this account is true, they must have seen each other.
Jane Tanner will also claim she saw a man in the dim light outside the apartment building holding something wrapped in a blanket and hurrying away. After Robert Murat is named an arguido, she will positively state it was him, and she will give a detailed description of him, claiming he was carrying a child who looked like Madeleine and dressed like her. However, she doesn’t mention this to anyone at the Tapas Bar at the time.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Russell ---------------------------------------- Gerry
Rachael --------------------------------------- Jane
Fiona
David
Dianne

9:25 Gerry returns to the Tapas Bar, and Russell O’Brien will later tell the PJ that he and Mathew plan to visit the children. How can Mathew check on the kids when, if the reports are accurate, he hadn’t returned from his first visit? Neither is there any testimony of Jane’s return, so why is Russell checking their children if she is still with them?

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Gerry (after 20 min. absence) ------------------ Russell
Rachael --------------------------------------- Jane
Fiona
David
Dianne

9:30 Mathew and Russell leave the Tapas Bar. Mathew will also state that he saw light in the McCann apartment, and Russell will say his daughter was vomiting and he had to change her sheets. But housekeeping has no record of him asking for clean linens.
Najova Chekaya, aerobics instructor and quiz director, joins the party at Gerry’s invitation. She will later state that one chair was empty and nobody got up from the table except Kate (around 10:00).

At Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Russell
Rachael
Fiona
David
Jane -------------------- or ------------------ Jane?
Dianne

9:35 Mathew Oldfield returns to Tapas Bar.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew?
Gerry
Rachael
Mathew
Fiona
David
Jane? (When did she rejoin group?)
Dianne
Najova

9:45 Jane Tanner confirms that at this time, and not at 9:30, Russell and Mathew left to check on children. However, this is unlikely as Najova Chekaya makes no note of this and says Mathew was there.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew?
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Russell?
Rachael
Fiona
David
Dianne
Najova
Jane? (When did she rejoin group?)

9:55 Russell O’Brien returns to Tapas Bar.

Kate
Gerry
Russell (gone either 10 or 25 minutes)
Rachael
Mathew?
Fiona
David
Dianne
Jane
Najova

10:00 Kate McCann goes to the apartment and discovers Madeleine missing. She goes back to the Tapas Bar to sound the alarm. They all leave the table except Dianne Webster. No mention is given about her departure except to say she returned to the bar at 10:05 for her purse and camera. Since, according to Jane’s testimony, Mathew hadn’t returned to the restaurant before Kate left, when did he get back?


If any of the McCann friends are suspected of harming Madeleine, I doubt it's Rachael Oldfield, the Paynes or Fiona's mother, Dianne. They didn't leave the table the entire time.

[Morag]

As I almost certainly recall, but too lazy-er-busy- to search link, ROB was not present on at least one of the evenings previous to the May 3. Have we heard if there were others absent on any previous night, or is this the only Tapas member who ever missed an evening's ****-up?

[Elphaba]

Portugal papers are buzzing... O'Brien may be the new suspect!

[Texana]

The problem with the timeline as presented is that it's obviously full of contradictions, like the aerobics teacher's testimony.
Anyone of the people there could have been gone longer or returned sooner than anyone really noticed or remembered.

If they really did, as the restaurant people said, drink about a bottle and a half of wine per person in that time frame, then they were drinking a lot of wine in a very short amount of time. That would make it far less likely that they were noticing the actual time, and far less likely that their recollections were not blurred by alcohol.

How much did the alcohol consumed affect their judgement and actions and recollection?

And my recurrent question is--why would Russell O'Brien leave a child who had been vomiting severely, unless he knew for certain that child would not throw up again and aspirate--because perhaps he gave his child Phenergan? It stops nausea but makes anyone very sleepy.

[sleuthin4fun]

Portugal papers are buzzing... O'Brien may be the new suspect!

Is there a link?

[CarpeDiem]

Portugal papers are buzzing... O'Brien may be the new suspect!

WOW!!! Thanks for letting us know!

[CarpeDiem]

Is there a link?

It's being reported/suggested in the Diario de Noticias.

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/21/sociedade/prisao_suspeito_britanico_pode_estar.html

[Texana]

It's being reported/suggested in the Diario de Noticias.

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/21/sociedade/prisao_suspeito_britanico_pode_estar.html

Here's a not very good translation from World Lingo of the first part:

he English policy is to prepare the detention of a friend of the McCann, in Exeter, for suspicion of envolvement in the disappearance of Madeleine, in the Algarve. It has been remembered that some friends who had passed vacation with the McCann couple in the The Ocean Club, in the Beach of the Light, inhabit in that locality.
The Judiciary Policy has very to follow the tracks on movements considered strange on the part of the suspected one in the night of 3 of May, when Madeleine disappeared. The friend of the McCann arrived for return of the 20,30 at the supper in the restaurant Covers, situated in that aldeamento and about 30 meters of the apartment where it was Maddie with its two gémeos brothers, finishing for if absenting for the most part of the time. Shortly after to come back to join it the group, already for return of the 22,00, appeared Kate McCann to cry out “They take-in! ”, mentioning the son to it.

Maybe we can get a better translation from someone else. ;)

[CarpeDiem]

A polícia inglesa está a preparar a detenção de um amigo dos McCann, em Exeter, por suspeita de envolvimento no desaparecimento de Madeleine, no Algarve. Recorde-se que alguns amigos que passaram férias com o casal McCann no The Ocean Club, na Praia da Luz, residem naquela localidade.

The British police is ready to arrest a friend of the McCanns in Exeter, on suspicion of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine in the Algarve. It has been mentioned that some of the friends who spent the holidays with the McCanns at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, live in that locality.

A Polícia Judiciária está há muito a seguir as pistas sobre movimentações consideradas estranhas por parte do suspeito na noite de 3 de Maio, quando Madeleine desapareceu. O amigo dos McCann chegou por volta das 20.30 ao jantar no restaurante Tapas, situado naquele aldeamento e a cerca de 30 metros do apartamento onde estava Maddie com os seus dois irmãos gémeos, acabando por se ausentar na maior parte do tempo. Pouco depois de voltar a juntar-se ao grupo, já por volta das 22.00, apareceu Kate McCann a gritar "Eles levaram-na!", referindo-se à filha. Mas as versões apresentadas à PJ pelos pais de Madeleine e pelos amigos, sobre os passos seguidos naquela noite, são contraditórias.

The PJ are following up the investigation regarding the strange movements of the suspect on the night of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared. The friend of the McCanns arrived around 8.30pm to dine at the Tapas restaurant situated in the complex and about 30 meters from the apartment where Maddie and her twin siblings were located, and the person was then absent for a major part of the time. Soon after the person returned to the group around 10 pm, Kate McCann appeared and cried out `They have taken her`, refering to her daughter. But the versions presented to the PJ by the parents and by the friends about what followed that night are contradictory.

O suspeito mudou-se para Exeter quatro semanas antes de ir de férias para a Praia da Luz. É também naquela cidade inglesa que vive a irmã mais nova do luso-britânico Robert Murat, único arguido no caso Madeleine por suspeita de rapto da menor. Murat esteve em Exeter antes de vir de férias para Portugal, no dia 1 de Maio. De resto, terá sido este suspeito a denunciar à PJ movimentações de Murat junto do apartamento onde estava a criança.

The suspect moved to Exeter four weeks before going on holiday to the Praia da Luz. The younger sister of Robert Murat, the only person designated as a suspect for kidnapping Madeleine, also lives in the same city. Murat was also in Exeter before returning to Portugal on 1st of May. Additionally, it was this suspect who denounced Murat to the police – re. his movements near the apartment where the child resided.

Segundo apurou o DN, as televisões britânicas preparam-se para deslocar, hoje, equipas de reportagem para aquela cidade, a fim de acompanhar a situação.

According to the DN, the British television crews and reporters are preparing to move to Exeter with a view to following the situation.

Espera-se que os detectives no Reino Unido actuem depois de terem recebido informações dos colegas portugueses. A informação é avançada pelo jornal inglês Daily Express, que assegura que há suspeitos ingleses que têm vindo a ser vigiados há já várias semanas.

It is hoped that the UK detectives will act after having received information from their Portuguese colleagues. The information was leaked by the English newspaper Daily Express, which has confirmed that there are English suspects who have been kept under surveillance for many weeks.

Após as declarações do director nacional da Polícia Judiciária, Alípio Ribeiro, que admitiu que Madeleine pudesse ter sido morta no apartamento, colocando de lado a teoria do rapto, os detectives voltaram a examinar os testemunhos recolhidos na noite do desaparecimento de Maddie.

After the declaration by the national director of the PJ, Alipio Ribeiro, who admitted that Madeleine could have been killed in the apartment, thus setting aside the kidnapping theory, the detectives have re-examined the depositions made on the night of the disappearance.

Nesse grupo estão incluídos alguns amigos próximos dos Mc Cann.

In this group some of the close friends of the McCanns have been included.

De acordo com a edição online do diário inglês, Daily Telegraph, a Polícia Judiciária irá proceder a uma série de buscas nas próximas 48 horas. Os mandados de captura já estão assinados e a polícia apenas aguarda a ordem final para iniciar uma operação que poderá estar relacionada com o potencial novo suspeito.

According to the online edition of the Daily Telegraph, the PJ will start on a series of arrests in the next 48 hours. The arrest warrants have been signed and the police are only waiting for the final orders to start an operation which might be connected with the potential new suspect.

O jornal britânico acrescenta que esses mandados são válidos até ao final do dia de hoje, mas podem ser prolongados caso as autoridades necessitem.

The British paper says the warrants are valid till the end of this day but can be extended if deemed necessary.

Pode estar, assim, iminente,um "desenvolvimento significativo" na investigação do desaparecimento da menina britânica, quando as autoridades aguardam os resultados de uma prova forense, que pode ser uma peça chave na resolução do caso. Uma porta-voz da Forensic Science Service, em Birmingham, garante que as análises "estão em progresso", mas, para já, não há qualquer estimativa de quando possam ser divulgados os resultados. |

Therefore a significant breakthrough seems imminent in the investigation of the disappearance of the British child, while the authorities await the results of the forensic examinations, which might be a key to the resolution of the case. A spokesman for the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, assures that the analyses is progressing, but up to now there is no indication as to when the results will be divulged.

[sleuthin4fun]

As upset as I am with the McCanns for leaving Maddie, I would not wish this upon them. If this is accurate and ROB is to be arrested this just piles on more guilt. I just don't know what to make of this. My guess would be that if he is arrested and if their are others involved (possibly the McCanns) I would think he would begin to sing like a canary. Hopefully the cards will begin to fall.

[sherri79]

thank you so much for the great translation carpedeim.

[Texana]

Thank you CarpeDiem!

:blowkiss:

[CarpeDiem]

You're welcome, just holding down the fort until colomom get's back. Got to feel sorry for O'Brien's kid's too, one is the same age as Maddie, the other I believe is still a baby. What a shame. They still use the plural as in arrests and warrants, so I assume Jane is included.?

[KR2tonenow]

Thanks for the interesting update!

[philamena]

I'm trying to figure out why now the police suddenly have a suspect in Maddie's disappearance? Why now? What caused them to suspect this so called acquaintance of the Mccann's?

[sleuthin4fun]

I'm trying to figure out why now the police suddenly have a suspect in Maddie's disappearance? Why now? What caused them to suspect this so called acquaintance of the Mccann's?


The PJ has been very tight lipped. I wonder if they have been watching them and building a case against them all along.
Do we know how well the McCanns actually knew them?

[docwho3]

I'm trying to figure out why now the police suddenly have a suspect in Maddie's disappearance? Why now? What caused them to suspect this so called acquaintance of the Mccann's?He has been under surveilance a long time already. This makes me think he has long been a suspect, possibly due to both deception in his statements and the records of his phone calls and then just lately perhaps forensic evidence is coming to haunt him.

[philamena]

He has been under surveilance a long time already. This makes me think he has long been a suspect, possibly due to both deception in his statements and the records of his phone calls and then just lately perhaps forensic evidence is coming to haunt him.

Hi docwho3.
Please excuse my ignorance about this case.
I knew LE had watched and were possibly still watching someone. I had no idea it was someone the family knew.
I agree with you that this guys misstatements and other things are coming back to haunt him. If he's the perp, I hope he's haunted for the rest of his stinking life. Maddie was such a pretty little girl and she looked so happy in her pictures. If this creep harmed Maddie, I hope he has the heart to tell LE where she is. ;(

[CaliKid]

In one of the recent Portuguese newspapers, there was an article about the PJ having a suspect in their sights from the very beginning. The way the article read, it almost sounded as if they've known Robert Murat was innocent but let the true suspect believe in his guilt to trip him up and keep him from being suspicious.

I don't know how well Russell O'Brien knows the McCanns, but he's friends with Mathew Oldfield who worked with GM at the hospital in Leicester.

I'm confused by one thing. The above reads: Additionally, it was this suspect who denounced Murat to the police – re. his movements near the apartment where the child resided. Doesn't this sound more like Jane Tanner?

I realize there are quite a few people here who don't think the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's death apart from leaving her alone, and at this point it could go either way. But if it turns out the McCanns did do something to her and this other was simply the person in charge of moving her body and cleaning up the crime scene, I would bet s/he'll talk.

[docwho3]

Hi docwho3.
Please excuse my ignorance about this case.
I knew LE had watched and were possibly still watching someone. I had no idea it was someone the family knew.
I agree with you that this guys misstatements and other things are coming back to haunt him. If he's the perp, I hope he's haunted for the rest of his stinking life. Maddie was such a pretty little girl and she looked so happy in her pictures. If this creep harmed Maddie, I hope he has the heart to tell LE where she is. ;( I very much agree with you when you said, ". . .If he's the perp, I hope he's haunted for the rest of his stinking life. Maddie was such a pretty little girl and she looked so happy in her pictures. If this creep harmed Maddie, I hope he has the heart to tell LE where she is. . ."

Well said.

[docwho3]

. . . But if it turns out the McCanns did do something to her and ROB was simply the person in charge of moving her body and cleaning up the crime scene, I would bet he'll talk. The truth is the truth is the truth is the truth is the truth. May the blindingly bright light of truth shine upon the case of this missing little girl.

[CaliKid]

The truth is the truth is the truth is the truth is the truth. May the blindingly bright light of truth shine upon the case of this missing little girl.

Amen! I want to know where Madeleine is. We all do.

[CarpeDiem]

I don't know how well Russell O'Brien knows the McCanns, but he's friends with Mathew Oldfield who worked with GM at the hospital in Leicester.



They may have all been on a previous trip together in Greece in addition to their shared professional contacts in the UK. At any rate, I find this article that was originally published in the Sol Newspaper in early July an interesting read again:

Pact of Silence

Madeleine’s parents and the friends with whom they spent their holidays in PDL are suspects in the inquiry. There are contradictory versions about the night of the kidnapping, and an assumed pact of silence in the group

A few kilometres from Lagos, in the Ocean Club resort at Praia da Luz, the faint illumination further densifies the climate. At the reception, which leads to the Tapas restaurant, there is nobody. Getting inside is easy.

It’s 9.30 p.m. If we were to believe the several members of the McCann’s holiday group, and after several mismatching versions, at this time Madeleine was being carried out of her apartment by a dark-haired man, who would be around 35 years old.

From the same table where the group of nine had dinner on that evening, one tries, in vain, to observe the apartment’s front – a ground floor apartment that faces the restaurant. A linoleum screen on the side of Tapas and the corridor of bushes that follows the limits of the apartment’s back yards prevents any vigilance to that level.

The choice of Algarve as a holiday destination would come to change their lives. Everything was arranged with three other couples, with whom they used to travel. Some of them had recently been to Greece, with their children, and the Mark Warner agency, the same that prepared their trip to the Algarve, had done their itinerary for the islands. According to their reports, the hotel where they stayed had a baby listening service – a service that is assured by four or five members of staff who would control the children while the adults dined, by listening through doors and windows to confirm that everything inside was quiet.

At the Tapas bar, from bartenders to staff from the Kid Club, criticism is whispered: “We have a creche where they left their children for most part of the day, where they could be until 11.30 p.m. without spending another Euro. They could also have used our baby-sitters, who stay with the children in their rooms until 1 p.m. In this case, they would have to pay an extra fee, but these people looked like they could afford it”, an employee comments, concluding that “this was a very strange group, that never stayed with their children”.

The children’s routine

The story of Madeleine looks like a tangled ball of wool. In the last days of April, Kate and Gerry, both 39 and doctors, arrive with their friends in Praia da Luz. The weather is not very good, but the group makes the best of it. The children seem to exist outside of the adults’ world. In the morning, Kate would take Madeleine, almost 4, and the 2-year old twins, to the Kid Club. The other couples in the group did the same. While the little ones entertained themselves with collages and paintings, the group divides itself between tennis and jogging until lunchtime. In the creche, the girl’s picture is taken: “She was shy and had some difficulty in adapting to the group. She always stayed close to the english children she already knew”.

It is at lunchtime that the families socialize a bit. After a short nap, the children go back to the Kid Club, while the parents use the activities that the club offers. They only get to meet again in the late afternoon, when the children’s dinner is served. Before 8 p.m., Madeleine and her siblings, who seem to function like a clock, are already asleep. Half an hour later, the group of friends meets at Tapas. The staff remember that they only leave at midnight: “They were very lively and drank a bit too much. I didn’t even realize they had children, because I never saw them around”.

Mathew Oldfield, one of the elements of the group, is back in England. He reacts with surprise upon the contact of Sol, but he does not avoid the conversation: “We drank. We were on holidays. So what?”.

And thus the days followed one upon another, at the Ocean Club. The holiday week is almost over and the group’s spirit does not change. Nobody had noticed until then, how the children were kept at a distance.

The most reliable way to undrestand what happened on May 3, when Madeleine disappeared, is to analyze the various versions that emerged.

It would have been 10 p.m. when Kate decided to check the children at the apartment. This is the only moment in the story that gathers consensus. Madeleine had vanished from her bedroom and the twins were sleeping like nothing had happened. The mother was back at the restaurant in one leap. She was disoriented.

PJ called two hours later

In seconds, the resort is in turmoil. The group’s four men and the club’s employees check every corner. They seem to be oblivious of the essential: to call the authorities. GNR is the first to arrive at the scene, but the news only reach Policia Judiciaria (PJ) more than two hours later. The first explanations arise. Where were the parents when the child disappeared? Gerry explains that, inspired in the scheme that some of the friends had used on their holidays in Greece, the nine members of the group took turns in checking on the children with some regularity.

This is the beginning of a story that will change in many chapters. Gerry starts by saying that he first left the table to check on the children around 9.05 p.m. When he entered the apartment the children were fine, he just noticed that the door to their bedroom was partially open. He looked at the window, which was closed, just as the shutters, and relaxed.

Ten minutes later, his friend Jane Tanner, who went around the apartments, crossed ways with a dark-haired man who was walking in the opposite direction, carrying a child. She didn’t make any connections either.

A few minutes later, Mathew Oldfield enters the room, sees the McCann children fast asleep, and notices nothing out of the ordinary. It is at 10 p.m. that Maddie’s mother discovers her daughter has disappeared. The window was wide open and the shutters were up.

To GNR, who is in the area with sniffer dogs to search for the child, this is a highly unlikely scenario. One of the military assures: “This is an extremely silent area, where there are practically no passing cars. That shutter was very difficult to lift from the outside, and would have made a lot of noise. It would have been a lot easier to use the door, but there were no signs of a break-in”.

This was just one of the reasons why the group became suspicious in the eyes of the investigators. Russell O’Brien, Jane Tanner’s husband, is already back in England, but he knows he could be summoned back to Portugal for a deposition anytime. Over the phone with Sol, he tries to keep his british phlegm: “It is normal that we are suspects, and the DNA test is a consequence thereof. We were the closest people involved”.

The conversation always comes back to the same issue: the night of the disappearance. The account of that last dinner has disparate versions among the group’s members. Some swear that someone left the table every half hour to check on the kids; other reduce that time to half of it. Some say control is made window by window; others say the adults entered each other’s apartments.

One of the employees that was on duty that evening does not remember a lot of movement: “I only remember a tall, grey-haired man getting up once from the table”. It was Russell, who, two days earlier, also had attended dinner.

An aerobic instructor from the resort entertains the dinner guests at Tapas with a ‘Quiz’. At 9.30 p.m. the game ends, and Gerry invites her to their table, where she stays for half an hour. During that time, as she later confided to friends, nobody left the table, but one of the chairs was vacant. Najova Chekaya refuses to talk to Sol. And Russell, when the questions start to surround him, loses his sympathy: “I have nothing further to tell you. I am not going to dishonor the compromise I assumed with Kate and Gerry. They want to control all information that is disclosed”.

Gerry changes his version several times, but he maintains that the door to his children’s room was open. Mat revokes his first statement: when he entered Madeleine’s room, the door was open and there was more light, as if the shutters had been raised. Here starts to develop the theory that there was already someone inside the apartment. Which reinforces Jane Tanner’s version (that she saw a man carrying a child).

Only Jane saw the man carrying a child

But there is a witness whose deposition contradicts this theory. Jeremy Wilkins – a tv producer who had met Maddie’s father during their holidays and used to play tennis with him – was walking his eight months old son at that time. He met Gerry, who went out through the apartment’s back door after having checked on the children, and the two man exchanged a brief conversation. At that time, if one is to believe the first accounts, Jane would have left Tapas in the direction of the apartment’s main entrance, and would have crossed paths with both of them. “It was a very narrow road and I think it would have been almost impossible to walk by without me taking notice”, Jeremy says, pointing out the fact that he saw no man carrying a child, as Jane states.

But Jane continues to guarantee that, at the top of the street, she saw a man with a child in his arms.

Although the area is scarcely lit, and the situation did not make her suspicious at the time, she describes the beige trousers, the dark thick jacket and the black classic-style shoes in a detailed way. Once again, Jeremy disagrees: “If that happened, I would have likely seen it”.

On the next day, the media circus was fully installed. The first reports are on Sky News first thing in the morning, even before portuguese press takes hold of the story. Journalists and locals dispute the information. Robert Murat, the son of an english mother and a portuguese father, with little luck in business, does not waste the opportunity. He moves from failed businessman into the role of a translator for the press and the police. Some british journalists, after sucking him to the bones, start suspecting his availability.

The Murat contradiction

Contrarily to the GNR elements and the Ocean Club’s staff, who participated in the searches on the night before and assure they did not see Murat around, Gerry and some of his friends guarantee that he was there. And thus he becomes an arguido.

Gerry and Kate’s friends, who are interrogated tightly by the PJ over almost a month, refuse to clarify this contradiction, when asked by Sol. “We have a pact. This is our matter only. It is nobody else’s business”, says David Payne, another element with the group. Minutes after we tried to contact Kate, Gerry, in a fury, calls the Sol journalist: “What do you think you are doing? Do you think you’re better than the portuguese police? I’m going to forward your contact to PJ and you will have to explain yourselves”.

http://sol.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Sociedade/Interior.aspx?content_id=51551&dossier=Madeleine

[CaliKid]

This was the original SOL Pact of Silence report. It seem so long ago that it came out. But when you re-read it, with today's headlines as a guide, it seems to make a lot more sense.

I wonder if the JP are pulling in ROB or JT to break them down and make them tell the truth (assuming they haven't so far- I don't know if they have) or if they really believe they're guilty of something.

I just wish we could find Madeleine or her body. If she's alive, I'd jump for joy. But if not, her remains would provide crucial clues that would solve the case and maybe lead to arrests.

[kazzbar]

This was the original SOL Pact of Silence report. It seem so long ago that it came out. But when you re-read it, with today's headlines as a guide, it seems to make a lot more sense.

I wonder if the JP are pulling in ROB or JT to break them down and make them tell the truth (assuming they haven't so far- I don't know if they have) or if they really believe they're guilty of something.

I just wish we could find Madeleine or her body. If she's alive, I'd jump for joy. But if not, her remains would provide crucial clues that would solve the case and maybe lead to arrests.I am glad to read this news ..thanks to you all for keeping this alive. I think we will find out what became of poor Maddie. It is only a matter of time.

[Shazza]

This is truly a sad state of affairs, if it is true and they now suspect one or more of the McCanns friends then hopefully we will find out what has happened to Madelaine. It sounds to me as if the LE had their suspicions about the McCann party but until they had the proof to back up their suspicions were unable to act. I personally always thought that it was the McCanns or their friends, hopefully the truth will be known soon.

[angarella]

Waiting anxiously hoping to hear some news today. Prayers for little Madeleine!

[englishleigh]

WHY would Russell O'Brien do such a thing, if he did????

Possible reasons (just my OPINIONS ONLY):

1) He accidentally overdosed her with her parents' knowledge of the sedation ONLY, parents are unaware that Maddie died.

2) He accidentally overdosed her with her parents' knowledge of both the sedation and death.

3) He is a pedophile and he did his nasty thing to her and then killed her and disposed of her.

4) He is a pedophile and she died accidentally during his nasty thing and he disposed of her.


5) She was screaming for her father as she reportedly did on previous nights and he killed her in anger, sick of her being the one child to not comply with going to sleep and ruining the adults' evening together.

6) Back to the sedation theory: is it possible he sedated her WITHOUT her parents' knowledge?

Anyone else have any other ideas?

[docwho3]

08/21/2007
". . .Full results of DNA tests on blood specks found in the family's apartment are expected from a British forensic laboratory "imminently". . ."

". . .They are also looking again at claims a pensioner disturbed an intruder in her apartment directly above the McCanns' holiday flat just two weeks before Madeleine vanished. . ."

". . .A Briton who owns a holiday flat in Praia da Luz's Ocean Club complex, where Madeleine was snatched on May 3, suggested that burglars could be behind her disappearance. . ."

". . .Ian Robertson, from Neyland in Pembrokeshire, south Wales, experienced a break-in at his apartment, which is just 100m from the McCanns' flat and identical in layout, in February. . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070821/twl-mccanns-meet-bigley-s-brother-41f21e0_1.html

[colomom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2296373.ece


Madeleine police follow burglar lead

The only thing about this is....2 hours in the apartment in order to detect the scent of a body....I wonder if the scent detection was a ruse? With the PJ, you can never be sure. The are sneaky buggers...IMHO.

[colomom]

this morning in Correio da Manha:

http://www.correiodamanha.pt/noticia.asp?id=254749&idselect=9&idCanal=9&p=200

Madeleine McCann case
English delay exams

Since Thursday, the result from the exams on the biological residues that were collected by the PJ, are awaited in Portugal. The English lab has once again delayed the delivery, and now denies to establish a new deadline. The PJ continues to follow the death theory and Olegario de Sousa, the institution’s spokesman, recognized that “the results are precious”. The English police continues to insist on imminent detentions.

Four days after the foreseen date to receive the results from lab tests on the residues that were collected in Praia da Luz, the English lab has again not sent any elements to Policia Judiciaria. It has only communicated that the analyzes are in their conclusion phase, and that they will be sent to Portugal opportunely. And in order to avoid hollow expectations, the lab doesn’t even announce an arrival date. It could be this morning or it could be any other day this week, police sources have assured to CM.

A reality that disappointed Policia Judiciaria who seems to be increasingly on a run against time. With information leaks in Portuguese and English press, the authorities believe it will be difficult to achieve the effect of surprise in the investigation, namely if the possibility of searches on a specific suspect are made real, who has been identified by the police for a long time.

The expectations around the day of yesterday were great. Olegario de Sousa, the PJ’s spokesman, guaranteed to Lusa at the end of the morning that Judiciaria hadn’t received any indication on the results from the lab in Birmingham, but he admitted that could happen “still today [yesterday]”.

Olegario de Sousa then recognized that in order to follow the investigation lead that is analyzing the possible death of Madeleine, the “results are precious” from the blood residues. But he said those data would only be useful “if they bring any information” that is new.

On other “open” investigation lines, the PJ’s spokesman said the police “keeps working”, but he refused to reveal what diligences were being performed.

Olegario Sousa also explained that news that were published by some media, giving as certain the inquiry of a neighbour of the apartment from where Madeleine disappeared on the night of May 3, were “pure speculation”. But he did not advance any information on new diligences of Judiciaria in the Algarve, as the press in general has been suggesting.

English speak of detentions

British daily newspaper ‘The Times’ insisted yesterday, in its online edition, that a detention could be made at any moment. They guaranteed that the execution of that diligence was only depending on information that should arrive from Portuguese police, namely after receiving the analyzes’ results, which might confirm the investigation line that was already being followed.

As CM has reported, the same newspaper had guaranteed last weekend that arrest warrants had been issued in England, for searches to be made or even the detention of the suspect that police identified.

At the same time, English journalists advanced the possibility that the operation could happen today, having even assured that a great number of elements was being mobilized. The diligences would be accompanied by Portuguese police, and any arrested suspect could be extradited.

CM could not confirm such a scenario.

[colomom]

in Diario de Noticias today:

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/21/sociedade/regresso_mc_cann_penaliza_pj.html

McCanns’ return penalizes PJ

If Madeleine McCann’s parents return to England, as they have already announced, Policia Judiciaria (PJ) may have difficulties in making the couple return to the country for a new interrogation, if they come to be considered suspects according to new clues.

This is the opinion that was yesterday expressed to DN by a lawyer, who believes that the strong media impact and the pressure that has been made by English media on the Portuguese authorities will make it more difficult for PJ to guarantee the presence of Gerald and Kate McCann in future inquiries.

On the other hand, he adds, if the couple is constituted arguidos in Portugal, their situation would depend on the coercion measure that is imposed by a judge. Yet, it would be assured that “they could not return to England anymore” in order to try to lead a normal life, even defending the stability of their twin children.

“PJ has been preparing, for two weeks, the public opinion and Maddie’s parents and friends for clues that point to the death of the child and the possibility of advancing with new arguidos”. For that, “security in the investigations is necessary, as the credibility of Portugal is questioned, at a time when we preside the EU”.

70-year old Pamela Fenn, who was supposed to be heard as a witness in the Madeleine case, will presumably be heard today.

[docwho3]

This reminds me of an army or a navy laying down lots of smoke so you can't see their movements clearly. I think I know whats going on but I don't think it good to say at this time. An interesting strategy for handling the media and working the case at the same time.

[colomom]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/RussellOBrien.jpg

Russell O'Brien

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/JTanner.jpg

Jane Tanner

[colomom]

This reminds me of an army or a navy laying down lots of smoke so you can't see their movements clearly. I think I know whats going on but I don't think it good to say at this time. An interesting strategy for handling the media and working the case at the same time.

I can relate to this...it has always felt that way to me....

[colomom]

(Babelfish Translation)

http://tinyurl.com/2mrh7b

Dog with strong reaction inside of the used car for the McCann

"The announcement to the PJ of the return of the McCanns appeared at the same time that a pisteiro dog of the English Police inside had "a strong" reaction of the car that the couple rented after the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine. A reaction that left the investigators intrigued. The Renault Mégane demoradamente was analyzed, for more than a week, by the technician of the Laboratory of Scientific Policy, which removed some vestiges that are to be analyzed and that will be able to help to explain whether the car was related to the disappearance of the girl. What is fact is that "springer spaniel" Eddie, that detects the odor immediately the corpse, it inside had a very strong reaction - that the investigators try to understand - of the automobile, a time that Kate and Gerry had occupied the car two or three days after the daughter had disappeared from the room where she slept, in the past day 3 of May, in the apartment Ocean Club (Beach of the Light). Such with the JN notified, the dogs had also had strong reactions inside of the apartment that the McCann had occupied during its week of vacation, and also noutros places in the Beach of the Light."

Is this the first we have seen that confirms detection by the dogs in a car?? Where/how does the 2 hour window fit with this? This is not good, not good at all....

[colomom]

(From: http://tinyurl.com/2goj4l)

List of Registered Medical Practitioners

Results of search on 21 AUG 2007 at 14:53:16. The details shown are valid at the date and time of the search only.

GMC Reference Number 4090124
Given Names Russell James
Surname O'Brien
Sex Male

Registration Status
Registered

More Details
Primary Medical Qualification
MB ChB 1994 Leic (Conferred)
Provisional Registration Date 11 JUL 1994
Full Registration Date 02 AUG 1995
Specialist Register
General (internal) Medicine from 24 OCT 2006
Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics from 24 OCT 2006

GP Register
This doctor is not in the GP Register

[twinkiesmom]

I remember reading a news report that PJ thought she had been buried and then moved. The media certainly would have been watching their movements several days out from the disappearance, but that doesn't prevent them from lending out the car.

[CaliKid]

(Babelfish Translation)

http://tinyurl.com/2mrh7b

Dog with strong reaction inside of the used car for the McCann

"The announcement to the PJ of the return of the McCanns appeared at the same time that a pisteiro dog of the English Police inside had "a strong" reaction of the car that the couple rented after the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine. A reaction that left the investigators intrigued. The Renault Mégane demoradamente was analyzed, for more than a week, by the technician of the Laboratory of Scientific Policy, which removed some vestiges that are to be analyzed and that will be able to help to explain whether the car was related to the disappearance of the girl. What is fact is that "springer spaniel" Eddie, that detects the odor immediately the corpse, it inside had a very strong reaction - that the investigators try to understand - of the automobile, a time that Kate and Gerry had occupied the car two or three days after the daughter had disappeared from the room where she slept, in the past day 3 of May, in the apartment Ocean Club (Beach of the Light). Such with the JN notified, the dogs had also had strong reactions inside of the apartment that the McCann had occupied during its week of vacation, and also noutros places in the Beach of the Light."

Is this the first we have seen that confirms detection by the dogs in a car?? Where/how does the 2 hour window fit with this? This is not good, not good at all....

Everything we heard about the McCanns early on said they didn't rent a car for their vacation, but this turned out to be untrue. However, they didn't keep the same car during their entire stay in PDL. They turned in the original and rented out at least one other vehicle, all of which were searched. If the car they rented after Madeleine went missing was hit on by the scent dog, it means the McCanns know where her body is and moved it with the car.

[Reannan]

Could the body possibly have been hidden inside a suitcase? Most likely, the searchers who were looking in the apartment on the night of May 3rd, would not have even thought to have opened up the suitcases and look. It would then make it fairly simple to walk out with a day or so latter. Horrible thought.:sick:

[Juliana]

I read somewhere that the Mc's and Madeleine met with Russell O'Brien at a restaurant earlier in the evening, before going to the Tapas Bar. Has this been confirmed?

If so, I wonder if there is CCTV proving that the Mc's left the restaurant with Madeleine after parting ways with Russell? Obviously this question is only relevant if the early evening meeting with Mc's, Madeleine and Russell has been confirmed. Thanks.

[CaliKid]

Could the body possibly have been hidden inside a suitcase? Most likely, the searchers who were looking in the apartment on the night of May 3rd, would not have even thought to have opened up the suitcases and look. It would then make it fairly simple to walk out with a day or so latter. Horrible thought.:sick:

Good question Reannan! I think it would depend on how insistent the McCanns were that she'd been kidnapped. It's putting a lot of hope into convincing LE that she isn't simply missing or walked off. If I were a parent or friend of a parent and had killed this child, I wouldn't take the risk.

[colomom]

For anyone that can read Power Point presentations on their 'puter:

http://www.le.ac.uk/sm/LWMS/resources/pharmacology/lectures/Opiate%20Pharmacology%202003.ppt

It is very clinical....

[Rino]

For anyone that can read Power Point presentations on their 'puter:

http://www.le.ac.uk/sm/LWMS/resources/pharmacology/lectures/Opiate%20Pharmacology%202003.ppt

It is very clinical....

I can't :mad:

[Morag]

Rachael Oldfield is defending O'Brien, and has said he was only away from the table for a few minutes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476800&in_page_id=1770

Today Rachael Oldfield, who was also with the McCanns at the holiday complex, said: "It is just ludicrous. He is a lovely bloke. It is a total smear."
...But Mrs Oldfield insisted today he was only away for minutes at a time checking on his children.

[CaliKid]

That's the problem. They all defend each other and make excuses; hence, the Pact of Silence.

[SewingDeb]

Everything we heard about the McCanns early on said they didn't rent a car for their vacation, but this turned out to be untrue. However, they didn't keep the same car during their entire stay in PDL. They turned in the original and rented out at least one other vehicle, all of which were searched. If the car they rented after Madeleine went missing was hit on by the scent dog, it means the McCanns know where her body is and moved it with the car.

Who rented the car the week Medeleine went missing? Who was renting the car right before and right after she went missing? I think they should look into that possibility as well.

[Texana]

Here's one of several articles that mentions O'Brien specifically saying he saw Murat at the resort that night:

http://www.anorak.co.uk/news/madeleine-mccann/175151.html

[cinsbythesea]

You all have provided so much info - thank you! I'm not as up on this case as a lot of you but have been reading here as much as I can. What troubles me is that it's known the more people involved in a crime the more likely someone is going to "spill. If there was some sort of accident with Madeline and the parents - I don't understand why they wouldn't just come forward. And if they didn't come forward for whatever reason - why take the chance of involving others who could certainly point fingers later on? What really bothers me that if the parents are involved - that they've carried on the way they have - no hint of remorse, apprehension of being caught, nothing. Could they possibly be that cold and callous? Perhaps one is protecting the other ala John and Patsy Ramsey? For the sake of the two little ones they have left- I sure hope they aren't involved in this.

[Rhett]

I think they might all be smucking swingers! Something. There has to be a reason why they cover for each other. Someone or several has something on one or several of the others. I hope I made sense. Maybe they gave her to someone or some group to get themselves and their other children out of something. It is either some variation of what I propose and what has been proposed here regarding sedation of the children or the police are putting out a lot of smoke. IMHOO

[colomom]

You all have provided so much info - thank you! I'm not as up on this case as a lot of you but have been reading here as much as I can. What troubles me is that it's known the more people involved in a crime the more likely someone is going to "spill. If there was some sort of accident with Madeline and the parents - I don't understand why they wouldn't just come forward. And if they didn't come forward for whatever reason - why take the chance of involving others who could certainly point fingers later on? What really bothers me that if the parents are involved - that they've carried on the way they have - no hint of remorse, apprehension of being caught, nothing. Could they possibly be that cold and callous? Perhaps one is protecting the other ala John and Patsy Ramsey? For the sake of the two little ones they have left- I sure hope they aren't involved in this.

Good post Cinsbythesea,

I agree about involving others greatly increases the chance of somebody making a mistake. What if (big IF here) the PJ has leaked this "new information" appearing to implicate Russell O'Brien, just to increase the pressure on the actual person responsible. If the parents are involved could they actually stand by and watch him take a fall? If one is protecting the other perhaps one would confess? Can you imagine the arguments that might be going on behind closed doors?

Course, you all know what I am hinting at...

So, along those lines, ever hear about how a horrible secret can eat you up inside??

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/r.jpg

OFF TOPIC:

I lived in San Mateo/Foster City for many years, I really miss the Bay Area...sometimes ;)

[CarpeDiem]

Yikes, Kate looks TERRIBLE in that photo.


Hot off the presses, McCann's told NOT to leave Portugal:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/21/nmaddy221.xml

[less0305]

I think they might all be smucking swingers! Something. There has to be a reason why they cover for each other. Someone or several has something on one or several of the others. I hope I made sense. Maybe they gave her to someone or some group to get themselves and their other children out of something. It is either some variation of what I propose and what has been proposed here regarding sedation of the children or the police are putting out a lot of smoke. IMHOO

Funny, I had the exact same suspicion about the swinging lifestyle when I first started reading about this group of friends vacationing, etc. together. Something about their arrangements and whatnot made me think they may possibly be swingers and they're trying to protect their public image from their private image.

[Rino]

Mr Sousa said that detectives have a “positive feeling” about the inquiry and that the picture of what happened to the four-year-old on the night she disappeared is becoming clearer.


OMG I hope so

[BethInAK]

Good post Cinsbythesea,


So, along those lines, ever hear about how a horrible secret can eat you up inside??

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/r.jpg



I'd assume that having a missing child can eat you up inside too though.

[colomom]

(copied from the Proboards79 forum)

It's an interview with Olegario de Sousa with RTP on August 15.

Entirely in Portuguese but....

____________________________________
To access

For RealPlayer:

http://multimedia.rtp.pt/

(click the VIDEO button)

Note the date...

The interviews with de Sousa are on 8/15 (select from the drop down date menu and click "go") and the program is:

Jornal da Tarde (1ª Parte)

click the green arrow under the VIDEO REAL column.

______________________________________

For those who can access a .wmv file... mms://195.245.176.20/rtpfiles/videos/auto/jornaltarde/jtarde_1_15082007.wmv

_______________________________________

Fast forward until 15 mins 37 secs into the video.

A transcript & translation of some relevant answers, concerning the dogs and the cadaver issue:

"The dogs reacted at the locations where they were doing their work."

"The results of the collection of residues were sent to be analyzed. The dogs - their work was done in several locations. I will not specify (...) where or how [their reaction] happened."

"We will now see what the lab can tell us about what they eventually analyzed."

(on whether a cadaver does not have to remain at a given location for a long time in order to make the dog react)

"According to the information that I collected, that is the situation. Right after a human being stops living, as its vital functions cease, odors are set free, the body immediately enters the decomposition process, due to the various enzymes and other substances that are contained in the organism. In most cases, it takes hours or days for the body to release odor, for example, for a human being to detect. In the case of that dog, he doesn't need that amount of time, he can detect the smell in the first moments."

If you see the clip, you'll notice some talk about Russell O'Brien close to the end of the interview. Olegario de Sousa is totally non-comittal concerning this subject.

_____________________________________

This was very interesting because most things written indicate a minimum of 2 hours for detection and this indicates a completely different time frame. Of course, we do not know enough detail of the dog's searches but, It could mean a different "window of opportunity" or a different "possible time of death".

~just to keep you all completely confused :rolleyes: ~

[colomom]

I'd assume that having a missing child can eat you up inside too though.

That is true however, my post was concerning a completely different scenario.

[CarpeDiem]

Funny, I had the exact same suspicion about the swinging lifestyle when I first started reading about this group of friends vacationing, etc. together. Something about their arrangements and whatnot made me think they may possibly be swingers and they're trying to protect their public image from their private image.

Well, if that's what is going on, they need to get over themselves, because the lying and diversion doesn't help Madeleine. If that's the case, they aren't the first to have that happen and have their lifestyle/secrets exposed. The Van Dam's had to face that fire. Even the Walsh's when Adam was missing and Reve had to admit an affair with a close friend that was staying with them. But THEY layed every aspect of their lives open to investigators to clear themselves so the real perp and answers to the circumstances of their children's disappearance could be sought. They didn't hide behind a "pact of silence" or friends that seem more important to them than their own child!

[colomom]

Well, if that's what is going on, they need to get over themselves, because the lying and diversion doesn't help Madeleine. If that's the case, they aren't the first to have that happen and have their lifestyle/secrets exposed. The Van Dam's had to face that fire. Even the Walsh's when Adam was missing and Reve had to admit an affair with a close friend that was staying with them. But THEY layed every aspect of their lives open to investigators to clear themselves so the real perp and answers to the circumstances of their children's disappearance could be sought. They didn't hide behind a "pact of silence" or friends that seem more important to them than their own child!

Absolutely Carpe!!

That has bugged me from the get go when I sent the McCanns an email begging them to just tell the truth.

Also, the post about the PJ suggesting that this might not be the best time to think about leaving Portugal...why would they insist (or suggest) they stay? The rest of the Tapas9 were allowed to leave and it has been reported that they could be called back at any time. Why not allow the McCanns the same freedom with the same set of stipulations?

:waitasec:

[Reannan]

The powerpoint from ROB appears to be a lecture or presentation he had put together for a medical school or some similar audience on the use and misuse of opiates. What if this happened? The McCann's were concerned about the previous complaints from neighbors to management about the kids crying. ROB offered to give Madeleine something to help her sleep, so the McCann's and ROB went to dinner before the main meal at the Tapas bar, and ROB provided medication for Madeleine into the food. The only thing that doesn't fit here, is WHEN did the McCann's know that Madeleine had died under this scenario? I can't see the McCann's going to dinner as if nothing had happened while ROB hid the body! I can see them going to dinner, and ROB returning to check on Madeleine, and finding her dead. Perhaps Kate and Gerry really didn't know Madeleine had died until latter; at which point, it would have been awkward to tell the truth. This would also explain the vomiting of ROB's child.....maybe she also received a dose that was too strong, and was vomiting, but was given an opiate antagonist to counteract the drug. Under this scenario, it would create a fairly tight bond for the McCann's and Russell O'Brien to cover for each other. Even though I can see it happening, it still seems far fetched - agreed? All of this of course, is my sad, fact-deprived mind grasping at straws.

[Rino]

Absolutely Carpe!!

That has bugged me from the get go when I sent the McCanns an email begging them to just tell the truth.

Also, the post about the PJ suggesting that this might not be the best time to think about leaving Portugal...why would they insist (or suggest) they stay? The rest of the Tapas9 were allowed to leave and it has been reported that they could be called back at any time. Why not allow the McCanns the same freedom with the same set of stipulations?

:waitasec:
I imagine it is the begining of separting them. The pact is only as strong as its weakest line

[colomom]

I imagine it is the begining of separting them. The pact is only as strong as its weakest line

Very good!
:clap:

[colomom]

The powerpoint from ROB appears to be a lecture or presentation he had put together for a medical school or some similar audience on the use and misuse of opiates. What if this happened? The McCann's were concerned about the previous complaints from neighbors to management about the kids crying. ROB offered to give Madeleine something to help her sleep, so the McCann's and ROB went to dinner before the main meal at the Tapas bar, and ROB provided medication for Madeleine into the food. The only thing that doesn't fit here, is WHEN did the McCann's know that Madeleine had died under this scenario? I can't see the McCann's going to dinner as if nothing had happened while ROB hid the body! I can see them going to dinner, and ROB returning to check on Madeleine, and finding her dead. Perhaps Kate and Gerry really didn't know Madeleine had died until latter; at which point, it would have been awkward to tell the truth. This would also explain the vomiting of ROB's child.....maybe she also received a dose that was too strong, and was vomiting, but was given an opiate antagonist to counteract the drug. Under this scenario, it would create a fairly tight bond for the McCann's and Russell O'Brien to cover for each other. Even though I can see it happening, it still seems far fetched - agreed? All of this of course, is my sad, fact-deprived mind grasping at straws.

I still don't "feel" that ROB is involved other than perhaps supplying the possible sedative. I think the reason he was away from the table for so long was because his own daughter was sick. Remember, KM was also trained in anesthesiology...

I think ROB is patsy #2....

It's OK Reannan, I appreciate your "sad, fact deprived mind grasping at straws" ;) :D

[Rino]

I still don't "feel" that ROB is involved other than perhaps supplying the possible sedative. I think the reason he was away from the table for so long was because his own daughter was sick. Remember, KM was also trained in anesthesiology...

I think ROB is patsy #2....

It's OK Reannan, I appreciate your "sad, fact deprived mind grasping at straws" ;) :D
What about the different stories about the dirty sheets? Staff claims no calls went out for more sheets while he claims he had to change them due to her vomiting?

[docwho3]

What about the different stories about the dirty sheets? Staff claims no calls went out for more sheets while he claims he had to change them due to her vomiting? Interesting question.

[CarpeDiem]

What about the different stories about the dirty sheets? Staff claims no calls went out for more sheets while he claims he had to change them due to her vomiting?

I'd like to know if HE changed clothes and this vomiting was an excuse for him having to do so.

[colomom]

What about the different stories about the dirty sheets? Staff claims no calls went out for more sheets while he claims he had to change them due to her vomiting?

Remember the link I provided on the apartment? It stated there that sheets were not provided (but extras were provided for an emergency) and you should bring your own....

[colomom]

I'd like to know if HE changed clothes and this vomiting was an excuse for him having to do so.

Do we have a good source for the "changing clothes"? I don't remember where that was reported...

[Elphaba]

Dirty sheets query:

Resorts I have stayed at with holiday suites like the ones shown on the MW site, had compact washer and dryers in them. Like in Hawaii, I had maid service, but my daughter dropped juice on the bed, so I washed the sheets myself in the little washer and dryer. Not that I am defending these people, I am just putting forth a probablity as to why no service was needed for the sheets to be changed, if his daughter really threw up.

[Elphaba]

Just looked... MW Resorts do say that the apartments DO have washing machines...

[CarpeDiem]

Do we have a good source for the "changing clothes"? I don't remember where that was reported...

I don't know, I don't remember it being reported at all. That's why I was asking.

[Texana]

But we don't know what exactly happened,because O'Brien won't give any details. We don't know why he thought it was all right to leave a sick child, or if he mentioned that to anyone else at the table who could verify what he said.

Although I tend to go with the O'Brien as Patsy #1 story.

[Brefie]

I don't understand why people are all over this 'Pact of Silence'. My understanding was that witnesses are not permitted to discuss the case? Wouldn't that amount to the same thing?

[colomom]

I don't know, I don't remember it being reported at all. That's why I was asking.

Whoops, sorry. I did think I read somewhere that he changed clothes but I don't remember where and can't find anything on that. I will keep my eyes open and let you know if I find anything.

:o

[Reannan]

I am back to reseraching the capabilities of these cadaver dogs. Here is an interesting article about some attempts that are being made to create a device that can be used in place of the dogs:

http://tinyurl.com/2mxr7s

A snipet from the article is here:

"At the University of Tennessee Anthropological Research Facility (dubbed the Body Farm), Vass and his colleagues found that donated dead bodies lying on the surface or buried in shallow graves emitted more than 400 different volatile compounds. The researchers are honing in on groups of chemicals that are consistently emitted for each stage of decomposition: fresh, bloated, decayed, and skeletonized." ......

"If the chemicals that attract cadaver dogs can be identified, then one type of detector that ORNL researchers could build would use polymers that react with specific chemical vapors wafting by. A reaction changes each polymer's electrical conductivity enough to produce an electronic signal. Thus, a specific group of signals from the electronic nose could alert law enforcement that a shallow grave is nearby."

[CaliKid]

I don't know, I don't remember it being reported at all. That's why I was asking.

It wasn't reported, but I think it was among the questions asked several threads back- whether someone changed clothes, smelled of bleach, etc. when we were discussing the blood traces on the walls.

[Reannan]

This article makes it sound like the cadaver dogs are very accurate IF they are trained correctly. The British dogs which were brought over and have been used are some of the best in the world.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/cadaverdogs.html

"To fully appreciate the HRD (human remains detection) teams, it is necessary to learn as much as possible regarding the circumstances surrounding investigations in which they are asked to participate. Bodies buried, disarticulated bodies, bodies submerged in water, or hidden in vehicles or structures have been efficiently located by HRD teams. HRD teams are equally important in revealing that there was no odor of human remains present at a designated location, despite an informant's insistence to the contrary. "Clearing" an area by determining that no odor of human remains was available enables the investigation to move on to other venues. HRD teams do not work miracles and in some cases, foot searches have been conducted by the requesting agency following the HRD teams preliminary scan of an area. Use of credible HRD teams will contribute to the expeditious and through conclusion of most searches for human remains."

[Brefie]

Anyone seen this yet?
Google says it's only about 20 mins old

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2303356.ece

[Reannan]

Anyone seen this yet?
Google says it's only about 20 mins old

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2303356.ece

This case is filled with more confusing and mismatched information than I have ever seen! I honestly don't know what to think anymore, and the only way for the Portugese LE to maintain any sort of respect at this point in time, is to solve this dang thing....correctly. If the case becomes like Jon Benet Ramsey's, it will go down in history as being the fault of the Portugese LE because of the "mishandling" in the beginning. The truth of the matter is we don't KNOW if it was mishandled because of their dang secrecy laws. Everything ends up being rumors and gossip, which is almost always sensational! One minute, they are convinced Madeleine has been taken by an international organized pedophile gang, the next minute they are going to be conducting "swoops" throught the area in Portugal, then, they are sure she is dead, but they have no hard evidence to base this one. Just yesterday, they cancelled the leave of most of LE because of imminent arrest. I am beginning to think everything I read is just sensational crap. :razz:

[Elphaba]

This case is filled with more confusing and mismatched information than I have ever seen! I honestly don't know what to think anymore, and the only way for the Portugese LE to maintain any sort of respect at this point in time, is to solve this dang thing....correctly. If the case becomes like Jon Benet Ramsey's, it will go down in history as being the fault of the Portugese LE because of the "mishandling" in the beginning. The truth of the matter is we don't KNOW if it was mishandled because of their dang secrecy laws. Everything ends up being rumors and gossip, which is almost always sensational! One minute, they are convinced Madeleine has been taken by an international organized pedophile gang, the next minute they are going to be conducting "swoops" throught the area in Portugal, then, they are sure she is dead, but they have no hard evidence to base this one. Just yesterday, they cancelled the leave of most of LE because of imminent arrest. I am beginning to think everything I read is just sensational crap. :razz:

Just when we hear something that might mean the case is headed into a direction of action and moving forward, things turn around and we hear nothing, or we hear contradictions from people saying that they aren't suspects, as reported. I am to the point of throwing my hands up... and that is a very frustrating feeling, when you are hoping that something will happen and this poor girl will either be found, or justice will be served in regards of her disappearance.

I said this many threads back and it is this is, I think, the only thing any of us can really hold as the truth: Madeleine McCann has disappeared. Other than that... we know nothing more that can be held in a reliable light. :(

[Jdee]

Yes and the media and LE have dangled us by a thread for weeks and weeks with imenant' information about to be released which in reality we heard that weeks ago and to date nothing new has come to light... other than some spots of blood that may or may not be Madeleine's.

[colomom]

I totally agree with you Reannan, Elphaba and Jdee, it is enough to make you just throw up your hands in disgust! http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/willy_nilly.gif

After all this time, after all this dis-information or conflicting information, after being jumped on for "wondering aloud", after up and down, up and down, up and down emotions, after all that and more...what in the world keeps bringing us back?

Serious question...what do you think? I have never seen anything like this in my life!

[Texana]

It does really bring to mind the Ramsey case: Crime scene botched, conflicting testimony and contradictory statements, attitude and actions by parents after the crime causing more concern about their involvement. And we all know how THAT ended up sadly...

I still think that with that much alcohol consumed, the memories were impaired because they were all impaired. Not falling down drunk, but buzzed and happy. Mathew Oldfield admitted as much when he made his defensive comments about drinking because they were on holiday.

[Reannan]

I totally agree with you Reannan, Elphaba and Jdee, it is enough to make you just throw up your hands in disgust! http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/willy_nilly.gif

After all this time, after all this dis-information or conflicting information, after being jumped on for "wondering aloud", after up and down, up and down, up and down emotions, after all that and more...what in the world keeps bringing us back?

Serious question...what do you think? I have never seen anything like this in my life!

I think we come because Madeleine represents ALL of the children that are harmed by evil in this world. Madeleine represents hope and all that is good in this world. Her parents are a total enigma. Statistically, we all know that they are the most likely individuals to have harmed her. Emotionally, we all want to put our arms around them and help them through this terrible, terrible tragedy - if they are not invovled. Intellectually, we can't understand the parents. I have yet to meet one individual who thinks they were wise or justified in leaving their children alone. Even the McCann supporters struggle with this issue, and they do not seek to justify the behavior. We don't know how to feel about their behavior since May 3. The fund is unprecedented, and it is unclear what they are doing with the money. They look miserable, and yet they don't shed tears! Is their behavior based on strength or shame? We want to find Madeleine and place her gently back in the arms of her parents. We want them to be good, loving parents who are reunited with one of the most beautiful little girls in the world. We want her little brother and sister to grow up and have the chance to argue, go on dates, get married, and vacation together someday with their own families. We come because the saga represents what we fear most - a stranger coming into our homes and stealing the love of our lives; our children. I totally agree that this has been the strangest case I have ever watched unfold. The ups and downs are unparalleled. I often go outside after midnight and lay on my trampoline in my back yard and look up to the sky. I still have hope for an unprecedented ending to this saga - much like the Shawn Hornbeck story.

[CaliKid]

Absolutely Carpe!!

That has bugged me from the get go when I sent the McCanns an email begging them to just tell the truth.

Also, the post about the PJ suggesting that this might not be the best time to think about leaving Portugal...why would they insist (or suggest) they stay? The rest of the Tapas9 were allowed to leave and it has been reported that they could be called back at any time. Why not allow the McCanns the same freedom with the same set of stipulations?

:waitasec:

Answer is here: http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/21/s.....za_pj.html

McCanns’ return penalizes PJ

If Madeleine McCann’s parents return to England, as they have already announced, Policia Judiciaria (PJ) may have difficulties in making the couple return to the country for a new interrogation, if they come to be considered suspects according to new clues.

This is the opinion that was yesterday expressed to DN by a lawyer, who believes that the strong media impact and the pressure that has been made by English media on the Portuguese authorities will make it more difficult for PJ to guarantee the presence of Gerald and Kate McCann in future inquiries.

On the other hand, he adds, if the couple is constituted arguidos in Portugal, their situation would depend on the coercion measure that is imposed by a judge. Yet, it would be assured that “they could not return to England anymore” in order to try to lead a normal life, even defending the stability of their twin children.

“PJ has been preparing, for two weeks, the public opinion and Maddie’s parents and friends for clues that point to the death of the child and the possibility of advancing with new arguidos”. For that, “security in the investigations is necessary, as the credibility of Portugal is questioned, at a time when we preside the EU”.

70-year old Pamela Fenn, who was supposed to be heard as a witness in the Madeleine case, will presumably be heard today.

[colomom]

I think we come because Madeleine represents ALL of the children that are harmed by evil in this world. Madeleine represents hope and all that is good in this world. Her parents are a total enigma. Statistically, we all know that they are the most likely individuals to have harmed her. Emotionally, we all want to put our arms around them and help them through this terrible, terrible tragedy - if they are not invovled. Intellectually, we can't understand the parents. I have yet to meet one individual who thinks they were wise or justified in leaving their children alone. Even the McCann supporters struggle with this issue, and they do not seek to justify the behavior. We don't know how to feel about their behavior since May 3. The fund is unprecedented, and it is unclear what they are doing with the money. They look miserable, and yet they don't shed tears! Is their behavior based on strength or shame? We want to find Madeleine and place her gently back in the arms of her parents. We want them to be good, loving parents who are reunited with one of the most beautiful little girls in the world. We want her little brother and sister to grow up and have the chance to argue, go on dates, get married, and vacation together someday with their own families. We come because the saga represents what we fear most - a stranger coming into our homes and stealing the love of our lives; our children. I totally agree that this has been the strangest case I have ever watched unfold. The ups and downs are unparalleled. I often go outside after midnight and lay on my trampoline in my back yard and look up to the sky. I still have hope for an unprecedented ending to this saga - much like the Shawn Hornbeck story.

Ahhhhhhh Reannan, you made me cryhttp://smileydatabase.com/s/343.gif

Very nicely said!!!

:blowkiss:

[CaliKid]

So what happened to the arrrest? The search warrants and questioning Mrs. Fenn? All the promises of a big break-through? I'm beginning to think the Portuguese media is as bad as the British newspapers in throwing out useless, sensational lies.

This just reminds me so much of the JonBenet case, and the McCanns are the new Ramseys. Forever suspected of harming their daughter, but never proven or cleared. But it's worse because we don't have a body- Madeleine is out there somewhere and may never be found.

I agree with colomom. The up and down rollercoaster is so emotionally draining. Sometimes I just feel like throwing up my hands and quitting. It hurts too much.

[dingo]

Hi mates.....I read here every day but dont post...I just want to thankyou for the updates and informative posts that you all provide.:blowkiss:

[sleuthin4fun]

I think we come because Madeleine represents ALL of the children that are harmed by evil in this world. Madeleine represents hope and all that is good in this world. Her parents are a total enigma. Statistically, we all know that they are the most likely individuals to have harmed her. Emotionally, we all want to put our arms around them and help them through this terrible, terrible tragedy - if they are not invovled. Intellectually, we can't understand the parents. I have yet to meet one individual who thinks they were wise or justified in leaving their children alone. Even the McCann supporters struggle with this issue, and they do not seek to justify the behavior. We don't know how to feel about their behavior since May 3. The fund is unprecedented, and it is unclear what they are doing with the money. They look miserable, and yet they don't shed tears! Is their behavior based on strength or shame? We want to find Madeleine and place her gently back in the arms of her parents. We want them to be good, loving parents who are reunited with one of the most beautiful little girls in the world. We want her little brother and sister to grow up and have the chance to argue, go on dates, get married, and vacation together someday with their own families. We come because the saga represents what we fear most - a stranger coming into our homes and stealing the love of our lives; our children. I totally agree that this has been the strangest case I have ever watched unfold. The ups and downs are unparalleled. I often go outside after midnight and lay on my trampoline in my back yard and look up to the sky. I still have hope for an unprecedented ending to this saga - much like the Shawn Hornbeck story.


Reannan,
Beautiful! You are one of those people that makes this world a better place.:blowkiss:

[Brefie]

Do we really think the McCanns and the Ramseys are one and the same?

The sticking point for me is this: I have never heard of a case where the parents denied themselves a funeral...not saying it never happened (happens), but any case I can think of the body is always there. Barring, of course, Scott Peterson, but I really don't think he considered Conor an actual child. crazy as that seems to us.

[colomom]

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1330712007

Time is against us, say Madeleine police

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/5959-coaster2.gif (just for you Cali)

Down we go......

[colomom]

Hi mates.....I read here every day but dont post...I just want to thankyou for the updates and informative posts that you all provide.:blowkiss:

Awesome...thanks for checkin' in Dingo!

I am very happy to see that there are people reading other than the steady posters, who I also appreciate more than I can say!

:blowkiss: right back atcha....feel free to jump in anytime...

[CaliKid]

Do we really think the McCanns and the Ramseys are one and the same?

The sticking point for me is this: I have never heard of a case where the parents denied themselves a funeral...not saying it never happened (happens), but any case I can think of the body is always there. Barring, of course, Scott Peterson, but I really don't think he considered Conor an actual child. crazy as that seems to us.

I meant this in terms of the case going unsolved. If Madeleine is dead, I suppose it's possible her body might be found in a shallow grave some day or wash up on a beach. But without a body to examine to see what took place prior to her death (or when death occurred) and nobody 'fessing up, it's anyone's guess what happened. The rate it's going, we might never know the answers.

[concernedperson]

I meant this in terms of the case going unsolved. If Madeleine is dead, I suppose it's possible her body might be found in a shallow grave some day or wash up on a beach. But without a body to examine to see what took place prior to her death (or when death occurred) and nobody 'fessing up, it's anyone's guess what happened. The rate it's going, we might never know the answers.

Actually, I think this case is advancing. New info is surfacing daily and the McCann's don't look so good in the realm of things. This isn't a quiet case it just includes international boundaries which makes it harder for us to decifer.

[dingo]

Awesome...thanks for checkin' in Dingo!

I am very happy to see that there are people reading other than the steady posters, who I also appreciate more than I can say!

:blowkiss: right back atcha....feel free to jump in anytime...Thank you Colomom....I havent go anything to offer here but I do like to keep up to date with this sad event and do wish that Maddy could be found.

[colomom]

Actually, I think this case is advancing. New info is surfacing daily and the McCann's don't look so good in the realm of things. This isn't a quiet case it just includes international boundaries which makes it harder for us to decifer.

Very good observation concernedperson, that makes alot of sense.

A big "welcome" to you too!! Thanks for posting.

[Pinkhammer]

Sounds like my hunch about O'Brien and Tanner was right.

When is an arrest expected?

[Reannan]

Thank you Colomom....I havent go anything to offer here but I do like to keep up to date with this sad event and do wish that Maddy could be found.

Actually, dingo, you DO have something to offer! Your support and ideas. I think all the people at Websleuths are fantastic! :blowkiss: It is very helpful to have people share their thoughts, but also their questions! It helps all of us to clarify a very confusing situation. :waitasec:

[Pinkhammer]

I forgot to say "THANKS" to Carpe for the great translation of the article up above.

And thanks to all those who have worked on the timeline to figure out who was present and who was absent from Tapas during that evening. It is very helpful.

[colomom]

Actually, dingo, you DO have something to offer! Your support and ideas. I think all the people at Websleuths are fantastic! :blowkiss: It is very helpful to have people share their thoughts, but also their questions! It helps all of us to clarify a very confusing situation. :waitasec:

PLEASE people, don't be nervous about laying those questions, observations or outlandish theories out there for us to examine. In a case such as this it is imperative that we have as much input as possible. Consensus (IMHO) will lead to the key, the answer, the truth..if you will.

Don't be afraid of those that will ridicule you for your "speculation", I believe that all of us will defend your right to say whatever you want, and that includes those who can present a logical, intelligent argument...

It's all about participation and tolerance.....

On that note I bid you good night!!

[CaliKid]

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1330712007

Time is against us, say Madeleine police

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/5959-coaster2.gif (just for you Cali)

Down we go......

Thanks colomom. :crazy:

[april4sky]

This case is filled with more confusing and mismatched information than I have ever seen! I honestly don't know what to think anymore, and the only way for the Portugese LE to maintain any sort of respect at this point in time, is to solve this dang thing....correctly. If the case becomes like Jon Benet Ramsey's, it will go down in history as being the fault of the Portugese LE because of the "mishandling" in the beginning. The truth of the matter is we don't KNOW if it was mishandled because of their dang secrecy laws. Everything ends up being rumors and gossip, which is almost always sensational! One minute, they are convinced Madeleine has been taken by an international organized pedophile gang, the next minute they are going to be conducting "swoops" throught the area in Portugal, then, they are sure she is dead, but they have no hard evidence to base this one. Just yesterday, they cancelled the leave of most of LE because of imminent arrest. I am beginning to think everything I read is just sensational crap. :razz: I agree Reannan. This sums it up perfectly for me!!!!

[Reannan]

Actually, Colomom, you bring up a very good point. I also visit other forums, some very pro-McCann, and some very anti-McCann. One of the many things I love about this forum, is the fact that FACTS are sought and discussed. You can't help but deal with your emotions in a case like this, but by and large, we always get back to seeking the facts. Everyone's opinion is tolerated....even if it is questioned sometimes.:clap:

[Salem]

Actually, I think this case is advancing. New info is surfacing daily and the McCann's don't look so good in the realm of things. This isn't a quiet case it just includes international boundaries which makes it harder for us to decifer.

Concernedperson - I agree 100%. This case is really bigger than just Maddie as we all know. Not only has the media got the whole world watching, Portugal is trying to join the EU. Based on earlier reports, it appears that Britian has the ability to be either helpful or hurtful in Portugal's goal. So there are some heavy political issues at stake here.

Then there is the media war - Britian against Portugal. To date, it is my take that the Portugal reports, especially those from SOL and "the Daily Notice" (don't know how to spell it in Spanish) have been the most accurate in the long run and have provided the best sense of what is really happening in Portugal. The UK papers appear to be very biased in favor of the McCanns and while that is not necessarily bad, the bias has, in my opinion, affected their ability to be objective.

Reading between the lines of many of these articles, it is my opinion that PLE will not make a move that is not supported (read discovered) by the UK LE. Granted the UK has better technology and resources but I do believe the PLE is better at manipulation...... meaning that as long as they look like fools, the UK will help and eventually the UK will decide who the next suspects are. If they turn out to be the McCanns or their friends, then it will be the UK that has named them as suspects and not PLE. This will keep Portugal "safe" from any wrath handed down by the UK in Portugal's bid to join the EU.

And then - slightly off topic here, I would like to say that I really didn't appreciate the "blood-letting" comment directed at this thread. I don't think there is one of here that is going to jump for joy if it is discovered that the parents are involved in Maddie's disappearance, and I'm willing to bet that any tears that are shed by these posters if the parents are NOT involved will be tears of relief. I do believe we all understand that harm inflicted upon a child by a parent is the ultimate betrayal. Your spouse can cheat on you, your sister can steal your boyfriend, or your brother can steal your girlfriend and you get over it. But suffering at the hands of your parent(s) scars you for life (if you live through it). They are the 2 people in the entire world that are supposed to love you unconditionally and protect you from all the "badness" in the world.

Having said all that, my last comment will be that the parents are never above suspicion until they have been investigated and ruled out.

Salem

[CaliKid]

Actually, Colomom, you bring up a very good point. I also visit other forums, some very pro-McCann, and some very anti-McCann. One of the many things I love about this forum, is the fact that FACTS are sought and discussed. You can't help but deal with your emotions in a case like this, but by and large, we always get back to seeking the facts. Everyone's opinion is tolerated....even if it is questioned sometimes.:clap:

And that's part of the frustration of this case. Everything concerning a crime in Portugal is cloaked in secrecy. Take a look at any interview given by a member of its PJ, and you see a lot of "I can't reveal that" (or words very much like them). So instead of press conferences given by LE to state where the case stands and ask for help from the community, we get... silence. In the void, it looks as if the newspapers are just making stuff up. We are trying to seek facts, but it's hard when we don't know what they are.

[Texana]

Hi mates.....I read here every day but dont post...I just want to thankyou for the updates and informative posts that you all provide.:blowkiss:

You little dog, you. :blowkiss:

I read posts here for a long time before saying anything--and even now I find myself just echoing other posters who have far better insights.

It's great that so many people care about Maddie, no matter what they think happened.

[Texana]

PLEASE people, don't be nervous about laying those questions, observations or outlandish theories out there for us to examine. In a case such as this it is imperative that we have as much input as possible. Consensus (IMHO) will lead to the key, the answer, the truth..if you will.

Don't be afraid of those that will ridicule you for your "speculation", I believe that all of us will defend your right to say whatever you want, and that includes those who can present a logical, intelligent argument...

It's all about participation and tolerance.....

On that note I bid you good night!!

And good night to you as well. :blowkiss:

Couldn't agree more with you!

[CarpeDiem]

And that's part of the frustration of this case. Everything concerning a crime in Portugal is cloaked in secrecy. Take a look at any interview given by a member of its PJ, and you see a lot of "I can't reveal that" (or words very much like them). So instead of press conferences given by LE to state where the case stands and ask for help from the community, we get... silence. In the void, it looks as if the newspapers are just making stuff up. We are trying to seek facts, but it's hard when we don't know what they are.

Yes, and we don't even know if the UK investigators are sharing info with the PJ. So how would the PJ know anything about an operation being conducted in the UK by the UK investigators? The PJ are the one's whom screwed this all up from the start. Why should we believe what the PJ is saying today about O'Brien? Once this case is solved, I doubt it will be because of them.

[AfterMidnight]

That has bugged me from the get go when I sent the McCanns an email begging them to just tell the truth

Did you actually expect a reply? I find this sort of ludicrous.

[marynice]

Portugal joined the EU in 1986 and uses the Euro as it's money so I don't think it needs Britain's help to attain that goal!

[philamena]

It does really bring to mind the Ramsey case: Crime scene botched, conflicting testimony and contradictory statements, attitude and actions by parents after the crime causing more concern about their involvement. And we all know how THAT ended up sadly...

I still think that with that much alcohol consumed, the memories were impaired because they were all impaired. Not falling down drunk, but buzzed and happy. Mathew Oldfield admitted as much when he made his defensive comments about drinking because they were on holiday.
Ditto!

[Salem]

Portugal joined the EU in 1986 and uses the Euro as it's money so I don't think it needs Britain's help to attain that goal!

I was looking for the link - but haven't found it yet. There is something Portugal wants that the UK could help with. I'll find the link, it had something to do with the new guy Brown (I think). That's what I get when I try to use my memory:doh: without refreshing it first.

Salem

[Salem]

Apparently it some kind of EU treaty.

http://euobserver.com/9/24608

~snip~ The treaty issue is set to move from the technical back to the political stage on 7 September when EU foreign ministers are expected to tackle the topic at informal talks in Portugal.
~end snip ~

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=20553

~snip~Upon being asked about his views on the current relationship between Portugal and the United Kingdom, President Cavaco Silva said they were excellent, adding: "Portugal has a very good relationship with the United Kingdom, which has recently been reinforced by José Sócrates’ visit to the new British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

"It is very important for Portugal to maintain a good relationship with all countries in the European Union, including Germany and France." ~end snip~


Neither of these is the article I was looking for, but I think they relate. It is an EU treaty issue, not joining the EU. And I confess, I don’t really understand it all but the article I remember reading indicated it was important to Portugal.

A couple more links:

http://euobserver.com/9/24517

http://www.adfero.co.uk/news/autocodes/countries/russia/new-round-eu-talks-finalise-treaty-$1112407.htm

[dingo]

Im not sure if this is new or not..
I didnt abduct Maddie...family friend.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=288869

[dingo]

You little dog, you. :blowkiss:

I read posts here for a long time before saying anything--and even now I find myself just echoing other posters who have far better insights.

It's great that so many people care about Maddie, no matter what they think happened.Hi Texana:blowkiss: ......this little dog got her heart broke with the JBR saga....Im a bit gunshy now.

[CaliKid]

Im not sure if this is new or not..
I didnt abduct Maddie...family friend.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=288869

Well, if he's guilty you wouldn't expect him to just admit it.

[Shazza]

Apparently it some kind of EU treaty.

http://euobserver.com/9/24608

~snip~ The treaty issue is set to move from the technical back to the political stage on 7 September when EU foreign ministers are expected to tackle the topic at informal talks in Portugal.
~end snip ~

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=20553

~snip~Upon being asked about his views on the current relationship between Portugal and the United Kingdom, President Cavaco Silva said they were excellent, adding: "Portugal has a very good relationship with the United Kingdom, which has recently been reinforced by José Sócrates’ visit to the new British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

"It is very important for Portugal to maintain a good relationship with all countries in the European Union, including Germany and France." ~end snip~


Neither of these is the article I was looking for, but I think they relate. It is an EU treaty issue, not joining the EU. And I confess, I don’t really understand it all but the article I remember reading indicated it was important to Portugal.

A couple more links:

http://euobserver.com/9/24517

http://www.adfero.co.uk/news/autocodes/countries/russia/new-round-eu-talks-finalise-treaty-$1112407.htm



If this is really happening, Britain against Portugal at the expense of a missing little girl, then I am truly disgusted. Politics should not be brought into this, the two countries should work together to find Madelaine, not to score points against each other.
This is absolutely infuriating. I am soooo mad, angry, frustrated, THIS IS ABOUT A MISSING CHILD CALLED MADELAINE.

[Shazza]

Well, if he's guilty you wouldn't expect him to just admit it.
Too true, if he told the truth about where he was the night that Madelaine disappeared, then maybe he could be ruled out as a suspect, but he was missing from the restaurant that night, and because of the so called Pact of Silence, we dont know exactly where, who and for how long people were gone from the dinner table that night. I think if we knew that then we will know what happended to Madelaine.

[wtsn5]

Maybe I missed this but where does it state that the friends of the Mccanns had a "Pack of Silence". My understanding the pack of silence is because the police don't want them to talk and keep things quiet. Also the one friend I think it was Matt said everything should go through Gerry we made that promise.

I'm just not sure where the "Pack of Silence" came from.

[colomom]

Did you actually expect a reply? I find this sort of ludicrous.

Of course I did not expect a reply!!! But, I did hope they would read it!

In the early weeks of this case I was very emotionally upset by it. I cried for Madeleine every day. I was desperate for her to be found. I was convinced from day 1 that the McCanns were hiding something and I know how damaging that can be for LE to conduct a proper investigation. While I still feel these things it is less intense (thank God).

The word ludicrous means:

1 : amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2 : meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

therefore your comment is very insulting. If you can't comment without being insulting I would appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself!

Thank you very much! :slap:

[englishleigh]

Maybe I missed this but where does it state that the friends of the Mccanns had a "Pack of Silence". My understanding the pack of silence is because the police don't want them to talk and keep things quiet. Also the one friend I think it was Matt said everything should go through Gerry we made that promise.

I'm just not sure where the "Pack of Silence" came from.

Actually, it is "PACT of silence"...not "pack"....and I think the very fact that they agreed everything would go through Gerry could be considered a "pact"... A "pact" is a promise or agreement, so it implies much more than the word "pack", which just sounds like they were huddling in a pack together being quiet...which they have been, I suppose, but a pact implies an agreed-upon promise they would be silent about ratting each other out or saying anything that could be considered incriminating.

I don't remember where it was said they had agreed to a pact of silence but I believe they did. Colomom and CaliKid will know where it was said/reported first.

[Brefie]

wtsn5 - 'Pact of Silence' is a term I may have picked up from here or from news reports, but my understanding is the same as yours - they are not allowed to discuss the case, so I don't understand why some people think it's a conspiracy among the tapas 9 and that they have something sinister to hide.

Additionally, if this had happened to one of my friends, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would NOT be talking to reporters unless they SPECIFICALLY asked me to. I mean, look at the tabloids. See how they SPIN everything?? These people are saying nothing and they are STILL getting crucified.

I see this as damned if you, damned if you don't.

[colomom]

Maybe I missed this but where does it state that the friends of the Mccanns had a "Pack of Silence". My understanding the pack of silence is because the police don't want them to talk and keep things quiet. Also the one friend I think it was Matt said everything should go through Gerry we made that promise.

I'm just not sure where the "Pack of Silence" came from.

You can read the article here:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1903

It was originally published:

Sol, on June 30, 2007
an article by Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim

Madeleine Case
Pact of Silence

[colomom]

wtsn5 - 'Pact of Silence' is a term I may have picked up from here or from news reports, but my understanding is the same as yours - they are not allowed to discuss the case, so I don't understand why some people think it's a conspiracy among the tapas 9 and that they have something sinister to hide.

Additionally, if this had happened to one of my friends, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would NOT be talking to reporters unless they SPECIFICALLY asked me to. I mean, look at the tabloids. See how they SPIN everything?? These people are saying nothing and they are STILL getting crucified.

I see this as damned if you, damned if you don't.

In the report I mentioned above (see: http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1903) the Sol reported:

Gerry and Kate’s friends, who are interrogated tightly by the PJ over almost a month, refuse to clarify this contradiction, when asked by Sol. “We have a pact. This is our matter only. It is nobody else’s business”, says David Payne, another element with the group. Minutes after we tried to contact Kate, Gerry, in a fury, calls the Sol journalist: “What