Explain the Blood in the Trunk

[Tricia]

The big evidence seems to be Maddie's blood in a rental car trunk THREE WEEKS after she went missing.

WHAT????? HOW????

How in the world could her parents have kept her body hidden before putting her in the trunk?

I think it's blood transfer from a towel or a blanket. Only thing that makes sense.

What do you all think?

[englishleigh]

I think your explanation makes a LOT of sense, Tricia.

[Olivia77]

I am with you that it is probably transfer. I have a hard time believing that with all the media attention on them,they toted her body around for nearly a month.

I think that if they did it, they sedated her and she had a terrible reaction, which could have included vomiting blood and other fluids. :(

[concernedperson]

It has been reported that cadaver dogs hit on the car keys of that rental car. So, 3 weeks after Maddie's disappearing would have to mean Kate or Gerry came in contact with the body after renting the car otherwise they would be no cadaver odor.

[Lurker]

Could it be from Maddie herself? Maybe she had dried blood on her
and when they put her in the trunk to move the body it was transferred?

[sherri79]

It has been reported that cadaver dogs hit on the car keys of that rental car. So, 3 weeks after Maddie's disappearing would have to mean Kate or Gerry came in contact with the body after renting the car otherwise they would be no cadaver odor. what exactly do the dogs need to get a "hit"? if she was killed in bed and laid there for 2 hours then her body was dumped and the blankets from the bed was not. how would the blanket carry the scent? 3 weeks later the blanket that her body was under and that has her blood on it is moved in the car. would that cause the dogs to alert?

[concernedperson]

what exactly do the dogs need to get a "hit"? if she was killed in bed and laid there for 2 hours then her body was dumped and the blankets from the bed was not. how would the blanket carry the scent? 3 weeks later the blanket that her body was under and that has her blood on it is moved in the car. would that cause the dogs to alert?

I would think the dogs alerted because the hand that used the car keys had cadaver scent on them. The DNA in the trunk was some biological whether it was blood or decomposing remains. The cadaver scent lasts a long time once it has been established....I think it would be a little longer than 2 hours though to be fully pungent (sorry couldn't think of another word). I would have to research that.

[MREG2]

Did I hear the news correct this afternoon about traces of blood being found in the hotel room or were they talking about the car?

[christine2448]

decomposing remains

Would decomposition cause, gosh this sounds awful, blood to 'leak' from body?

The rental was 3 days after her disapperance right? Would that forensically be possible?

It was my first thought concerned, but not sure if my theory even is plausable.

[Elphaba]

I go with transfer... if they hid sheets and clothing away that had her fluids on it, say in a bag or suitcase, the fluids would have had a hard time drying up... especially in a tropical setting... the moisture factor is a pain in tropical settings. A "3 week later transfer" could be very plausible in that setting. And yes, even the smell of a corpse could have been found, if the material at one point held her body long enough to have the postmortom fluids get on it.

I thought I heard that the Madeleiene's DNA showed up in a cupboard of some sort, the flat that the McCann's rented after her disappearance. This would fit the "transfer" scenario of DNA, if the parents were moving the material from place to place, hiding the stuff and waiting for the opportune moment to get rid of the stuff.

[2sisters]

Would decomposition cause, gosh this sounds awful, blood to 'leak' from body?

The rental was 3 days after her disapperance right? Would that forensically be possible?

It was my first thought concerned, but not sure if my theory even is plausable.
yes, after a body bloats it collapses and the flesh becomes soft, then the fliuds begin to run out. 3 weeks later would have been about the time this stage of decomposition would take place if she died the day she vanished. But where was she for 3 weeks?

[christine2448]

I go with transfer... if they hid sheets and clothing away that had her fluids on it, say in a bag or suitcase, the fluids would have had a hard time drying up... especially in a tropical setting... the moisture factor is a pain in tropical settings. A "3 week later transfer" could be very plausible in that setting. And yes, even the smell of a corpse could have been found, if the material at one point held her body long enough to have the postmortom fluids get on it.

I thought I heard that the Madeleiene's DNA showed up in a cupboard of some sort, the flat that the McCann's rented after her disappearance. This would fit the "transfer" scenario of DNA, if the parents were moving the material from place to place, hiding the stuff and waiting for the opportune moment to get rid of the stuff.

Ohhhhhh, the rental was 3 WEEKS not 3 DAYS...dang, I misunderstood...hmmmm.

Did they for sure say it was BLOOD specifically or just evidence?

[sherri79]

Would decomposition cause, gosh this sounds awful, blood to 'leak' from body?

The rental was 3 days after her disapperance right? Would that forensically be possible?

It was my first thought concerned, but not sure if my theory even is plausable.from a horrible case we had locally i know "fluids" leak. a large amount of think brown foul smelling liquid leaked from the body of a 7 yr old in a week. i also remember learning a little about decomp in science. all the blood in a body flows to the lowest point not long after death causing discoloration that can prove a body was moved.

[JanetElaine]

Also it has been said that when a frozen body starts to defrost, blood will leak out.

Now someone said they didn't think there were freezers around big enough for her Madeleine to fit into... And I really really hate to bring this up, and I am sorry that I've been 'little miss far-fetched' on many occasions here lately, but erm, what if Madeleine was disposed of little by little... so to speak? :(

I know most of the blood would have been gone then, but they also said it was only a tiny bit they found.

Christine yes it has been said it is Madeleine's blood that was found (links in the general thread).

[concernedperson]

This is by no means conclusive but a trial of cadaver dogs indicate most would be able to scent remains at the 2.5-3 hour mark from death. So, it also means that there would be no chance of the dogs missing a cadaver scent days or weeks later.

http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html

[colomom]

Also it has been said that when a frozen body starts to defrost, blood will leak out.

Now someone said they didn't think there were freezers around big enough for her Madeleine to fit into... And I really really hate to bring this up, and I am sorry that I've been 'little miss far-fetched' on many occasions here lately, but erm, what if Madeleine was disposed of little by little... so to speak? :(

I know most of the blood would have been gone then, but they also said it was only a tiny bit they found.

Christine yes it has been said it is Madeleine's blood that was found (links in the general thread).

Ewwwww, I didn't even think about that. As far as I am concerned anything is possible. Human beings are strange animals.

[englishleigh]

Ewwwww, I didn't even think about that. As far as I am concerned anything is possible. Human beings are strange animals.

And they are doctors and so are the people who were with them...dismemberment wouldn't be as gross to them as it would be to the average person.

[Pinkhammer]

...more than once. The McCanns would most likely have needed accomplices to do this. Only the McCann apartment was searched immediately. She could have been transferred first to the apt. of one of the Pact of Silencers.

Or maybe this is where Murat came in? He was friends with some of the Pacters?? But dogs didn't hit on anything at his place, which was searched several times, and thoroughly.

It will be interesting to find out just how The Worst Parents in the World pulled this off.

[ceeaura]

I think it was transfered from a blanket,towel or sheet maybe even some clothing.

Maybe it went something like this.Something horrible happened to Madeleine causing her death.She was bundled up in a blanket and taken to a safe place while the apartment was cleaned and for her nowhere to be found when the police where called.Thinking one or two in the Tapas 9 helped with this or someone in the 9 knew of someone there that helped them also.Rings a bit true for the "a man was seen walking very fast with a child bundled in a blanket.She was dumped somewhere and the blanket was brought back to the apartment or one of the tapas 9s apartment.The blanket then is put into the trunk of the rental car and then maybe put into the other rental place if they did indeed find DNA in a cabinet.

Thats my thought in a nutshell.Transfer DNA.

[Texana]

I vote for transfer as well of the DNA. The McCanns had already moved into the other lodging after she went missing--my understanding is they never spent another night in that room. They did not have the rental car until 25 days later.

The most likely explanation seems to be something that Maddie was wrapped in or lay on when/if she died, or some article of clothing.

Ceeaura, I think you explained it very well!

[concernedperson]

Just because of the transfer why would they bring the blanket or sheet back? They are doctors and are familiar with that kind of DNA evidence. Wouldn't it be smarter to leave the blanket or sheet in a trash can or bury it somewhere so their own DNA wouldn't be attached to it?

If they are trying to blame this on an abductor then returning evidence to the apartment makes no sense at all.

[ceeaura]

Thank you Texana...I usually end up having to explain a bit more because I get carried away with a thought and I confuse people.So am very happy I explained something and it was understood :)

[Texana]

Just because of the transfer why would they bring the blanket or sheet back? They are doctors and are familiar with that kind of DNA evidence. Wouldn't it be smarter to leave the blanket or sheet in a trash can or bury it somewhere so their own DNA wouldn't be attached to it?

If they are trying to blame this on an abductor then returning evidence to the apartment makes no sense at all.

If they handled the blanket or clothing, they would want to make sure they did dispose of it properly--which would mean removing it from the resort area all together.

[Alice253]

Could they have wrapped and placed her little body in a suitcase? That might explain some of the cadavar "hits".

[concernedperson]

If they handled the blanket or clothing, they would want to make sure they did dispose of it properly--which would mean removing it from the resort area all together.

I agree. So why would it be in the rental car 3 weeks later? Wouldn't you think they would have disposed of it immediately and not try and hide it in the apartment knowing that DNA was there including their own. I am trying to think like they would I guess, but it isn't working.

[angarella]

This is far fetched, but. What if on the night in question, they hid Maddie down by the beach in one of the caves or something. And then, thinking that all was clear, took a suitcase or duffle bag down there and got her out and took her somewhere else to dispose of? Hmmm... just thinking. I need to go back and check a few links.

ETA: To clarify, I mean her body. :(

[concernedperson]

Could they have wrapped and placed her little body in a suitcase? That might explain some of the cadavar "hits".

Alice, that is exactly what I am thinking. They wrapped her body and placed her in a suitcase and disposed of it fairly nearby but hidden. They must have been concerned that she could be discovered and decided to move it again to a more secure area. Thus, renting a car 3 weeks AFTER her disappearance wouldn't raise any eyebrows at the police department to their way of thinking. I believe the strong hit of cadaver was because there WAS a cadaver in the trunk of the rental vehicle.To place her there and then use keys to start the ignition would leave scent for the dogs to pick up especially after 3 weeks of decomposition. It would also explain the biologicals found in the trunk.

[Alice253]

That's exactly what I was thinking, CP!

[Alice253]

I've been trying to search, but geez, there's so much --- where or what all did the cadavar dogs hit on? For some reason, I have in my mind that there was some place they hit on that was up out of the way - like a shelf or something. Did I dream this, or did I really read it on here somewhere? Because, if that's true, then perhaps a suitcase had been there as well?

[concernedperson]

I've been trying to search, but geez, there's so much --- where or what all did the cadavar dogs hit on? For some reason, I have in my mind that there was some place they hit on that was up out of the way - like a shelf or something. Did I dream this, or did I really read it on here somewhere? Because, if that's true, then perhaps a suitcase had been there as well?

Here is the article about blood in the rental car. Still looking for the cadaver hits.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[Alice253]

OK, found this post by KOOL LOOK that mentions the cupboard.
Since we know there is blood involved, in the car, on the wall, forensics in the cupboard, and death smell on the cat toy and Kate's clothing, we know it wasn't a soft kill.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1666058&highlight=cupboard#post1666058

I am just about convinced she was placed in a suitcase. Poor little Maddy was missing - no one was searching the luggage.......

[L L & S]

Significant Moment In Hunt For Madeleine (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283063,00.html)

Sky News

~~ clipped

The police now have the results from fibres, saliva, and blood samples obtained during forensic examinations of the apartment where Madeleine disappeared on the May 3, as well as from various other premises and vehicles that have been examined.


Whilst this is excellent news, the finding of forensic evidence does present the investigating police with some significant difficulties, if not now, certainly in the future, should anyone be charged or brought to trial.


The problem is one of 'cross contamination'.


For example we know the McCann's apartment was examined and then re-let and it was only after it was re-let that a further examination took place and the blood was found.

[philamena]

When did the parents have time to kill Maddie? Wasn't Maddie seen throughout the day and part of the evening? Were other children in the room with Maddie and the twins?

Sorry, but I think the supposed blood evidence sounds fishy.

FWIW-Let's say the McCann's accidently killed their daughter.....why not come out and say that? They're 2 well respected drs. Why not call 911 and say what happened?

[martin walkerdine]

hello there i am writing to suggest that police in portugal are getting nearer to solving the crime if the mcCanns did hire that rental car 3 week after madeleine vanished then that suggests that the body stored inside let say a suitcase and then moved to the house when they left the holiday resort after they were told to leave by the management of mark warner holidays

[dottierainbow]

Reported on Fox the Dad is now a suspect also.

[martin walkerdine]

reports from portugal are now suggesting that gerry mccann is now a formal suspect in madeleine missing case

[ceeaura]

When did the parents have time to kill Maddie? Wasn't Maddie seen throughout the day and part of the evening? We other children in the room with Maddie and the twins?

Sorry but I think the supposed blood evidence sounds fishy.

FWIW-Let's say the McCann's accidently killed their daughter.....why not come out and say that? They're 2 well respected drs. Why not call 911 and say what happened?


It could have been accidental.Think it could have happened between 6-7:30 pm

Texanna summed it up nicely why they would not come out and say that.Heres the quote

Faced with losing their other children, loss of livelihood, and maybe even prison time, they might very well rationalize covering things up. After all, doctors make mistakes in judgement every day that result in people's deaths. It's something every doctor has to learn to live with in some way or they can't practice medicine.

[Jack]

When did the parents have time to kill Maddie? Wasn't Maddie seen throughout the day and part of the evening? We other children in the room with Maddie and the twins?

Sorry but I think the supposed blood evidence sounds fishy.

FWIW-Let's say the McCann's accidently killed their daughter.....why not come out and say that? They're 2 well respected drs. Why not call 911 and say what happened?


I've been following this story for awhile but not posting about it. So I'm just going to jump in with both feet...


Since some of the other parents in the group hired sitters I'm not buying that it was so common for kids to be left alone sleeping while parents dined.. and then tonight I hear on the evening news the possibility of the children being sedated that evening. Sooo it's possible she died from an overdose while parents were dining. Maybe she vomited up blood and such. And two doctors would know that they'd lose their other children, their careers, and their good name if it was found that they were obtaining drugs to sedate their children so they could party. No better reason for a coverup, IMO.

That said, I'm not convinced they did it.

[mjak]

The biggest hurdle right now is explaining how blood evidence got into a car three weeks after Maddies dissapearance. I believe PLE is very competant and methodical and probably have an explanation for this which is why they have moved forward with labeling the parents as suspects. If both blood evidence of Maddie was found and the dogs indicated the presence of death then I think the parents need to explain this and just saying the three weeks makes no sense is not good enough to dispel it. Sorry PLE is not stupid and I am certain that have a scenerio which explains the 3 week gap.

mjak

[Shazza]

I am holding judgement until the facts of the DNA are made public by the LE, they have their reasons and I have faith that we will all know soon enough.

[concernedperson]

The biggest hurdle right now is explaining how blood evidence got into a car three weeks after Maddies dissapearance. I believe PLE is very competant and methodical and probably have an explanation for this which is why they have moved forward with labeling the parents as suspects. If both blood evidence of Maddie was found and the dogs indicated the presence of death then I think the parents need to explain this and just saying the three weeks makes no sense is not good enough to dispel it. Sorry PLE is not stupid and I am certain that have a scenerio which explains the 3 week gap.

mjak

To me it was they were moving the remains. Plain and simple.

[Angie4b1g]

To me it was they were moving the remains. Plain and simple.

I agree, and that only infuriates me more. Why weren't they being watched 25 days after she'd gone missing????? :banghead:

[Angelrat]

I had one idea, all resorts have those big crushed Ice bins they are deep and you rarely get to the bottom of one, they could have dug through the ice and put her in the bottom of a bin and kept her frozen. :( Until when ever.

I sure will never get crushed ice again :sick:

[angarella]

I had one idea, all resorts have those big crushed Ice bins they are deep and you rarely get to the bottom of one, they could have dug through the ice and put her in the bottom of a bin and kept her frozen. :( Until when ever.

I sure will never get crushed ice again :sick:

Sounds like you just might be onto something there.

ColoMom, will you ask your friends if there were ice machines located in and around the resort? Thanks.

[Texana]

I agree. So why would it be in the rental car 3 weeks later? Wouldn't you think they would have disposed of it immediately and not try and hide it in the apartment knowing that DNA was there including their own. I am trying to think like they would I guess, but it isn't working.

They might take anything to the new apartment where they have been staying for the past 120 days--betting that the police won't search or test the new lodgings.

Or it might have been taken to the apartment of one of the dinner party members--if they were in on it.

[txsvicki]

I'm not sure I have an opinion on the parents yet. It does sound suspicious, but I do hope that any previous renters of the car the few weeks before are checked out thoroughly. What if an abductor rented the car that the McCanns just happened to rent a few weeks later.

[Texana]

I'm not sure I have an opinion on the parents yet. It does sound suspicious, but I do hope that any previous renters of the car the few weeks before are checked out thoroughly. What if an abductor rented the car that the McCanns just happened to rent a few weeks later.

Those would be astronomical odds, that an abductor would also be a visitor/tourist who would rent a car but yet know a resort area thoroughly enough that he/she could take a child without being noticed or drawing attention to him/herself.

I don't want to believe that the parents are involved, either, but there are lots of unanswered questions and discrepancies with the parents' story and behavior.

[BloodshotEye]

Can anyone confirm that Madeleine is a twin? Or am I confusing two different cases ...

Regarding the blood. If Maddie is a an identical twin (one egg is fertilized and splits), the DNA may actually belong to her twin. If maddie is a fraternal twin (two different eggs are fetilized), we are back to square one...wondering.

If we are talking about identical twins, the DNA will be identical, but the fingerprints may be different (there is some debate about the fingerprints).

Very strange turn of events. I am following someone's theory that the child was in a piece of luggage. Wonder if this luggage could have been temporarily stored in a train depot somewhere. Granada has a central station for the Eurorail, that has luggage lockers. Wonder if something similar, is nearby their hotel. A lot of these luggage lockers at the train stations, are available 24 hours a day. But seriously, where/how the hell would they know how to dispose of the body, once the retrieved it again? Just can't wrap my brain around this just yet.

[BloodshotEye]

Answered my own question. I think I seriously need sleep.

Maddie has a twin brother and sister, as you all probably know ;] . I just lost my mind for a few minutes there. So...the luggage theory. There is a train station that is reasonably close to the Praia da Luz resort in the Algarve.

It Happened Before The Parents Went To Dinner
If there is indeed, evidence that ties directly back to the parents; then I speculate that "it" happened before they left for dinner. And that is the reason the parents left the twins by themselves. To create an alibi. Becuse it would have been difficult to store the body, and then retrieve it again - after they call the police, I speculate that the body would have already been taken somewhere, and buried. Wonder if the hotel housekeeping noticed if any of the pillow cases were missing...

According to this travel site, the Praia da Luz resort is only a short drive to the protected Costa Vincentina Natural Park.

Here is the link: take a look at the surroundings, and see if you "feel" a sense for how resourceful someone could be, if they had to dispose of a small satchel. A child could easily fit in a large/kingsize pillow case.
http://www.traveluzion.com/local/PraiaDaLuz

[AfterMidnight]

There are many unanswered questions, and I have some myself:

Why were the employees at the tapas bar so sure of the McCann party’s comings and goings when they should have been busy, busy, busy? Are they that interested in ALL their patrons movements? If so, why so? Something bothers me about this "resort" thing. Was there a possible kidnaping gone bad? The McCanns seemed to be rather well-to-do. Ransom would not be out of the question - neither would the burglaries we have heard about in the area, especially if someone is keeping a good "eye" on the intended victims.

From whence came the sample of Maddie’s DNA? Did it come from a hair brush; toe-nail clippings; an old blanket she had bled on? I’m very curious about this.

Maddie’s blood in the trunk of the car could have come from the same source they got the DNA from, a blood-stained blanket, or some such. I believe the only way there could have been fresh/liquid blood was from a transport of the actual body or part(s) thereof. WHO rented and/or had ACCESS to that car prior (or during) the McCann’s rental thereof is VITAL.

In the same vein, a cadaver dog can only hit on a cadaver, they cannot tell you the dead body’s name. I believe it’s within the realm of possibility that there’s been more than one death around that resort and/or the rental cars - although maybe not little children with well-off parents. Aruba and a few cruise ship mysteries should have taught us "stuff" happens.

I believe Kate McCann said "cuddle cat" SMELLED like Maddie. Now there’s a scary thought for you, if the cadaver dogs "hit" on it.

A tiny body could be cut up and put in the freezer of a common refrigerator, if the butcher knew what they were doing. Did LE check the frig?

I don’t know the truth of this story, but these are some of the questions I would like an answer to.

[Shazza]

There are many unanswered questions, and I have some myself.
Why were the employees at the tapas bar so sure of the McCann party’s comings and goings when they should have been busy, busy, busy? Are they that interested in ALL their patrons movements? If so, why so? Something bothers me about this "resort" thing. Was there a possible kidnaping gone bad? The McCanns seemed to be rather well-to-do. Ransom would not be out of the question - neither would the burglaries we have heard about in the area, especially if someone is keeping a good "eye" on the intended victims.
From whence came the sample of Maddie’s DNA? Did it come from a hair brush; toe-nail clippings; an old blanket she had bled on? I’m very curious about this.
Maddie’s blood in the trunk of the car could have come from the same source they got the DNA from, a blood-stained blanket, or some such. I believe the only way there could have been fresh/liquid blood was from a transport of the actual body or part(s) thereof. WHO rented and/or had ACCESS to that car prior (or during) the McCann’s rental thereof is VITAL.
In the same vein, a cadaver dog can only hit on a cadaver, they cannot tell you the dead body’s name. I believe it’s within the realm of possibility that there’s been more than one death around that resort and/or the rental cars - although maybe not little children with well-off parents. Aruba and a few cruise ship mysteries should have taught us "stuff" happens.
I believe Kate McCann said "cuddle cat" SMELLED like Maddie. Now there’s a scary thought for you, if the cadaver dogs "hit" on it.
A tiny body could be cut up and put in the freezer of a common refrigerator, if the butcher knew what they were doing. Did LE check the frig?
I don’t know the truth of this story, but these are some of the questions I would like an answer to.
As would we all, but the LE are not releasing the results of the DNA tests, they are making sure that the investigation is being done thoroughly, I am assuming we will find out the answers to all our questions, when the P LE know without a doubt what has happened.

[AfterMidnight]

It Happened Before The Parents Went To Dinner
If there is indeed, evidence that ties directly back to the parents; then I speculate that "it" happened before they left for dinner. And that is the reason the parents left the twins by themselves. To create an alibi. Becuse it would have been difficult to store the body, and then retrieve it again

That makes a lot of sense because I read "somewhere" on here that the parents had lined up a sitter for that night but cancelled before dinner.

The suitcase in the train station makes sense, too, and if you add the trips all around the continent searching for Maddie and leaving pictures, etc., they could have been leaving cut-up body parts.

I'm not sure the parents are guilty. I have no idea who is, just throwing out scenerious, questions, and ideas.

[CaliKid]

Can anyone confirm that Madeleine is a twin? Or am I confusing two different cases ...

Regarding the blood. If Maddie is a an identical twin (one egg is fertilized and splits), the DNA may actually belong to her twin. If maddie is a fraternal twin (two different eggs are fetilized), we are back to square one...wondering.

If we are talking about identical twins, the DNA will be identical, but the fingerprints may be different (there is some debate about the fingerprints).

Very strange turn of events. I am following someone's theory that the child was in a piece of luggage. Wonder if this luggage could have been temporarily stored in a train depot somewhere. Granada has a central station for the Eurorail, that has luggage lockers. Wonder if something similar, is nearby their hotel. A lot of these luggage lockers at the train stations, are available 24 hours a day. But seriously, where/how the hell would they know how to dispose of the body, once the retrieved it again? Just can't wrap my brain around this just yet.

Madeleine has twin siblings but isn't a twin herself.

The corpse-scent dog hit on a cupboard or closet in the rental apartment the McCanns moved to after Madeleine disappeared. Maybe a suitcase was inside or maybe Madeleine's body had been in it for a short while, although I don't know how it wouldn't smell.

If blood was found in the trunk of a rental car the McCanns used after May 3, it means either she was in the car and something flaked off her, OR something that she came in contact with was in the car.

There has also been some rumors that the car the McCanns used was the exact same car used by one of the doctors in the group they went to Portugal with.

[AfterMidnight]

There MUST be rental car records proving WHO had the car. If not, WHY not? I also believe the employees of the rental car service need to be checked out THOROUGHLY. And, NO, I don't believe the Portugeese LE are smart and "on top" of this. They didn't even find the blood until British LE went over the car.

[philamena]

It could have been accidental.Think it could have happened between 6-7:30 pm

Texanna summed it up nicely why they would not come out and say that.Heres the quote

ceeaura,
Thanks for the reply and explanation.

[philamena]

I've been following this story for awhile but not posting about it. So I'm just going to jump in with both feet...


Since some of the other parents in the group hired sitters I'm not buying that it was so common for kids to be left alone sleeping while parents dined.. and then tonight I hear on the evening news the possibility of the children being sedated that evening. Sooo it's possible she died from an overdose while parents were dining. Maybe she vomited up blood and such. And two doctors would know that they'd lose their other children, their careers, and their good name if it was found that they were obtaining drugs to sedate their children so they could party. No better reason for a coverup, IMO.

That said, I'm not convinced they did it.

Jack,
Thanks for the reply. You have a reasonably scenario, imo.

[BloodshotEye]

Well, let's see if we can back this rental car thing, into this little "group" scenario. If the car was initially rented by one of the other doctors in this group, perhaps they turned it over to the McCanns, when they left Portugal.
Sometimes during the peak vacation season, rental cars are hard to get. It would not surprise me, if one of the other doctors turned their rental car over to the McCanns.

Wish we knew who had the original rental agreement on that car, and who else in the group used the car. Anyone at that famous Tappas Bar table, who used that car, please stand up...

[AfterMidnight]

Instead of backing the car into the little group scenerio, why not deal with facts and find out WHO had access to that car prior to the McCanns?

[kk's mom]

I'm not all that sure about how forensics, etc. works. Won't they run some type of dna testing on the blood found in the car to see if there is a possible match to Maddie?

[Shazza]

I'm not all that sure about how forensics, etc. works. Won't they run some type of dna testing on the blood found in the car to see if there is a possible match to Maddie?
I think that is what they have already done, and Madelaines DNA was found in a blood sample in the back of the car.

[kk's mom]

I think that is what they have already done, and Madelaines DNA was found in a blood sample in the back of the car.

Thanks Shazza. I was confused when they said they found traces of blood. I wasn't sure if it was "just blood" or "Maddie's blood".....

[Shazza]

Thanks Shazza. I was confused when they said they found traces of blood. I wasn't sure if it was "just blood" or "Maddie's blood".....
They found traces of Madelaines blood, but not sure if it was transferred via clothing or something she could have been wrapped in, or a blood stain on the interior of the car.

[Edwards20]

Here is the article about blood in the rental car. Still looking for the cadaver hits.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
But a spokeswoman for the family, Justine McGuiness, said police have said the girl's blood was found in a vehicle rented by the family 25 days after Madeleine (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/madeleine_mccann) went missing. I would like to hear this from LE. Perhaps this is what LE is telling the family, perhaps not.

So, I still need solid clarification that Maddie's DNA was in that trunk. Also, the spokesperson is stating the car was not rented until 25 days later. I am still not sure we are getting the "facts". \

However, in the scenario of there truly being DNA from Maddie in that trunk. I will go with "transfer". I am not sure her body was in that trunk.

I am sitting here listening to Gerry or Kate's brother on the Today Show. He said if they have "forensic evidence" why are they showing it to them ? So, I am just not sure what to believe.

I am holding judgement until the facts of the DNA are made public by the LE, they have their reasons and I have faith that we will all know soon enough. DITTO

I agree, and that only infuriates me more. Why weren't they being watched 25 days after she'd gone missing????? :banghead: I think they were being watched ... perhaps not being "followed", but they have managed to keep this case in the public eye.

Also, I would like to know where the original DNA sample came from.

[Shazza]

I think the McCanns were watched by the P LE from day one, they were the last to see Madelaine alive, so they would have to have been suspects in the eyes of the law even if they were told that they were not, the testimonies of the McCanns and their friends would have been read and reread over and over. If most of the posters here thought they were guilty from the start, then surely the P LE would have had their suspicions, they had to cross their T's and dot their I's before the could formally tell them they were suspects. I think they have evidence to convict them but are unable to release it to the public in case it hinders the case.

[Trino]

I think the McCanns were watched by the P LE from day one, they were the last to see Madelaine alive, so they would have to have been suspects in the eyes of the law even if they were told that they were not, the testimonies of the McCanns and their friends would have been read and reread over and over. If most of the posters here thought they were guilty from the start, then surely the P LE would have had their suspicions, they had to cross their T's and dot their I's before the could formally tell them they were suspects. I think they have evidence to convict them but are unable to release it to the public in case it hinders the case.

Good post. We voice suspicions, but LE has evidence. While it would be nice to know what LE has, it's to their advantange to keep it under wraps. We'll learn more when (and I think this will happen) the McCanns are arrested. (I wonder if they can jog in jail.)

[Autumn2004]

I believed the parents till this point even though I had suspicions when the twins were not taken along with her. Now I think they did it. I always thought they were incredibly negligent when it came to their kids but now Im sure they did something to her.

[sleuthin4fun]

I think the McCanns were watched by the P LE from day one, they were the last to see Madelaine alive, so they would have to have been suspects in the eyes of the law even if they were told that they were not, the testimonies of the McCanns and their friends would have been read and reread over and over. If most of the posters here thought they were guilty from the start, then surely the P LE would have had their suspicions, they had to cross their T's and dot their I's before the could formally tell them they were suspects. I think they have evidence to convict them but are unable to release it to the public in case it hinders the case.


Shazza,
I agree with you. I think that LE has been on them from the very beginning. In America we are so used to getting so much information that some may assume that because P LE has had little to say they must not be doing their job. I believe they are cunning and getting the house in order.

[Texana]

Now that the McCanns are both formally named "arguido" under Portugese law, all evidence against them must be shown to them. Anything they say can be used against them in court (unlike their previous witness status.)

It has been reportedly leaked that the car the McCanns rented 25 days after Maddie disappeared was rented before that by one of the other members of the vacationing British group.

It has not been officially said that the DNA sample was from blood but rather bodily fluids which would include many things.

[MoonGoddess]

Sounds like you just might be onto something there.

ColoMom, will you ask your friends if there were ice machines located in and around the resort? Thanks.

Hi angarella:)

I am colomoms 'freind' - I didn't notice any 'ice machines' near the resort. All the apartments at the OC vary - ours was over two floors so very different to the McC's one but I beleive the facilities inside are about the same, ours had a fridge/freezer and no way would even a small body fit inside one. I have toyed with the idea that they (McC'S) were into their tennis - aren't tennis balls kept at a certain temperature? in an iced container? just how they would have had access to that I really dont know or beleive that would be feasable - I am of the belief that as there is miles and miles of waste/barren scrubland VERY close to the resort - this would be the most feasable method of disposal to me.

I personally feel that at some point Madeleines body was transported in a suitcase, whether that same suitcase was then used to transport their belongings in the back of their hire car to their new apartment - I am not sure... but I sincerely hope that the PJ have checked to see if they are in posession of the same suitcases that they arrived with - I doubt it!!

Somebody mentioned the Tapas staff being able to have been aware of all the comings and goings of the group - I was VERY surprised at how small the Tapas bar was (and the fact that Tapas was not on the menu!!) there was approx 24/30 placed settings (you HAVE to prebook due to limited space) - this was a group of nine, 4 tables would have to have been placed together to accomodate the size of the party, there were two cooks on display in an open air type kitchen preparing the food, there were 3 waiting staff in attendance when we ate there, and it was not full, I would imagine you would have about 1 member of staff attending 3 tables (depending on size) so it would be easy for the staff to be fully aware of the comings and goings.

I do hope this makes sense.

Love to everyone:blowkiss:
Diane

[ThoughtFox]

I've been lurking and reading through all the great posts - thanks for opening the new page just about Madeline also. ;)

I thought I heard them say something on the news that I couldn't believe - that the parents had always been interviewed together up till now, and only in the past few days have they been interviewed separately. :doh:

I doubt that in the U.S. the police would wait so long to interview them separately, so it's disturbing. However, surely after all the hours of questioning they are unable to completely match their stories. I hope one of them slips up and tells the truth.

I hate to think they did this, but I heard a criminologist speak at length yesterday on MSNBC about the possibility of drugging the children so the parents could go party alone. I have three children and it infuriates me that doctors would do such a thing. It's one of the most selfish things I've ever heard.

I think this thread may be the key to case, because the car is the worst piece of evidence yet. I don't buy the idea that 'someone else' might have used the car. If the parents rented the car, and the child's bodily fluids are in there weeks after she was supposedly "kidnapped," then something is just not right.

We have to remember that this is supposed to be a kidnapping case, and that is based on what the parents told the police to begin with. If they are caught lying now, there is something really wrong with them, and they should be suspects.

[angelmom]

Hi angarella:)

I am colomoms 'freind' - I didn't notice any 'ice machines' near the resort. All the apartments at the OC vary - ours was over two floors so very different to the McC's one but I beleive the facilities inside are about the same, ours had a fridge/freezer and no way would even a small body fit inside one. I have toyed with the idea that they (McC'S) were into their tennis - aren't tennis balls kept at a certain temperature? in an iced container? just how they would have had access to that I really dont know or beleive that would be feasable - I am of the belief that as there is miles and miles of waste/barren scrubland VERY close to the resort - this would be the most feasable method of disposal to me.

I personally feel that at some point Madeleines body was transported in a suitcase, whether that same suitcase was then used to transport their belongings in the back of their hire car to their new apartment - I am not sure... but I sincerely hope that the PJ have checked to see if they are in posession of the same suitcases that they arrived with - I doubt it!!

Somebody mentioned the Tapas staff being able to have been aware of all the comings and goings of the group - I was VERY surprised at how small the Tapas bar was (and the fact that Tapas was not on the menu!!) there was approx 24/30 placed settings (you HAVE to prebook due to limited space) - this was a group of nine, 4 tables would have to have been placed together to accomodate the size of the party, there were two cooks on display in an open air type kitchen preparing the food, there were 3 waiting staff in attendance when we ate there, and it was not full, I would imagine you would have about 1 member of staff attending 3 tables (depending on size) so it would be easy for the staff to be fully aware of the comings and goings.

I do hope this makes sense.

Love to everyone:blowkiss:
Diane

Diane,

Great post. You have light bulbs going off in my head every which way! Although I've never heard of tennis balls being kept cold, I could be wrong. BUT I think the suitcase theory is very interesting.

What if they used the suitcase to hide Maddie? On that first night, the suitcase could have just been placed in the trunk of the car. Or somewhere equally innocuous. While the parents were under quite a bit of scrutiny, I don't think their friends were so much at first.

They could have disposed of Maddie's body as you said, among the caves and rocks, and waited with the suitcase for the right time to dump it. Just in case someone asked them to account for their luggage.

Later, on one of their many jaunts to generate "awareness", how easy would it have been to bring along an extra suitcase and dump that one at the airport before you got on the plane. Or if driving leave it in another city in a dumpster. Wipe it down and how could you ever prove it was theirs? All you have to do is say, "Damn, the handle/wheel/zipper broke, I had to replace it."

As for the car, is it possible that it was rented by one of them but used by all? For the few times they needed one? And then changed over to the McCann's name as people began to go home? Maybe K&G thought that the longer they kept it and used it, the less likely there would be any evidence. Also, if they had it and used it, the easier to explain any traces of Madeline as transfer.

But not blood, and certainly not a cadaver smell.

That poor baby girl. Please God let her be found.

[Chanler]

Shazza,
I agree with you. I think that LE has been on them from the very beginning. In America we are so used to getting so much information that some may assume that because P LE has had little to say they must not be doing their job. I believe they are cunning and getting the house in order.

I think that you bring up a good point. The Portuguese legal system is much less informative than our own. In fact, the Brits (who we think of as being secretive) complain about the tight restrictions of the Portuguese system. Of course, this doesn't necessarily make them more competent or less competent than we think; it just leaves us in the dark for longer.

Somebody else brought up a point about cadaver smell: That nauseating scent hits in the first day or two, even earlier in warm climates. Cadaver dogs can pick it up much, much sooner, but not all of them are infallible.

[MoonGoddess]

Diane,

Great post. You have light bulbs going off in my head every which way! Although I've never heard of tennis balls being kept cold, I could be wrong. BUT I think the suitcase theory is very interesting.

What if they used the suitcase to hide Maddie? On that first night, the suitcase could have just been placed in the trunk of the car. Or somewhere equally innocuous. While the parents were under quite a bit of scrutiny, I don't think their friends were so much at first.

They could have disposed of Maddie's body as you said, among the caves and rocks, and waited with the suitcase for the right time to dump it. Just in case someone asked them to account for their luggage.

Later, on one of their many jaunts to generate "awareness", how easy would it have been to bring along an extra suitcase and dump that one at the airport before you got on the plane. Or if driving leave it in another city in a dumpster. Wipe it down and how could you ever prove it was theirs? All you have to do is say, "Damn, the handle/wheel/zipper broke, I had to replace it."

As for the car, is it possible that it was rented by one of them but used by all? For the few times they needed one? And then changed over to the McCann's name as people began to go home? Maybe K&G thought that the longer they kept it and used it, the less likely there would be any evidence. Also, if they had it and used it, the easier to explain any traces of Madeline as transfer.

But not blood, and certainly not a cadaver smell.

That poor baby girl. Please God let her be found.

Hi angelmom:)

I did wonder if they kept M hidden in the locked suitcase whilst the search was going on - who would be looking in there for her? but I dont think they would risk it - I personally feel that this was an accident (bought about by G's temper) they were panic stricken and I feel they would want to hide the evidence asap - as you say - was a car hired that they all had access to? they must have had access at some point during the week as the went to Sagres, from memory that is about a 20/30 minute drive, I also heard (I do accept it could be hearsay!!) but it was a good source - that they were having a 'swinging' time out there - did G still have hold of car keys? even if he didn't - there are many barren spots where you could place a tiny body within walking distance without detection, or did he ask to borrow a car that night to go out and look for her? ... many possible scenarios...

The 'monument' where they have bragged about jogging to in 19 minutes - you can drive most of the way up there - it is mountainous but many parts are covered in dense shrubbery, it is vast - you could 'fling' something downwards and it would be impossible for searchers to get amongst it - I dont know whether the cadavar dogs were taken there - I walked up there on my own around 7pm one night - I was the only one up there - (lol I was cr*pping myself) it is one of the 'things to do' there - IF they had done that during the week - he would have been aware how easy it was to hide a little body - as I believe this was a panicked and unplanned happening - I feel he was thinking on his feet so to speak... (I hope this makes sense)

I honestly believe her little body is laying in remote scrubland quite nearby - I was told by a few people there that if that is the case - unless they admit it - she could never be found - there are also disused 'well systems' within a couple of miles within the resort - God Bless her Darling Heart - I also Pray to God she will be found in order for her to have a proper burial - that really hurts me right now, the thought she is still laying out there.

As for excusing the 'lost' suitcase - he would say they lost it in the confusion - OR it would be easy enough to buy a similar looking one - I am utterly convinced he is not in posession of the same luggage carriers that they arrived with and I wonder why he was seen leaving the new apartment with a bucket and spade for the twins and a suitcase 3 days after Maddie went missing? (Times Online - I'll try and find the link if you need me to)

God help them:furious:

edited with link:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1752277.ece

From The Sunday Times
May 6, 2007


McCann and his wife, both 39, yesterday walked hand in hand through the apartment complex. They had lunch with the twins at the same tapas bar as the evening before. McCann returned alone to the apartment, emerging with a suitcase and a bucket and spade for the twins.

[CaliKid]

Oh Diane, how nice to see and hear from you again. I should've known it was you who went to Portugal.

I'd like to ask if you visited the PDL church while you were there. If so, do you know if has a cemetary inside?

GM made a big deal in asking for a priest at 4:30 on May 4, early in the morning after Madeleine went missing. The McCanns were also given the key to the chapel to use when they wanted for "private time". I'm wondering if they could've buried her there?

[MoonGoddess]

Oh Diane, how nice to see and hear from you again. I should've known it was you who went to Portugal.

I'd like to ask if you visited the PDL church while you were there. If so, do you know if has a cemetary inside?

GM made a big deal in asking for a priest at 4:30 on May 4, early in the morning after Madeleine went missing. The McCanns were also given the key to the chapel to use when they wanted for "private time". I'm wondering if they could've buried her there?

Hi CaliKid:blowkiss:

Its nice to be back - I have struggled very badly emotionally/spiritually with all this...

I did spend a fair amount of time in the Church praying for Madeleine CaliKid... there is not a 'cemetary' there - the Church was a lot smaller than I imagined - there is a small garden on the left hand side of the Church - whether there is a 'vault' inside I really dont know... there is a cemetary about half a mile up the road - I didn't go there, I just passed by it - I am not at all sure how big it was tbh (being a bit 'sensitive' I try to avoid cemetary's!!)

As for him needing to see a Priest at that time, I dont know Cali - I personally feel, in his deranged mind - maybe he needed to 'feel' close to 'source'? (I think possibly Kate had sent him to fetch him?) I dont personally feel that he would have confessed to anyone - I think it would be incredibly hard for him to have carried on this act knowing that a man of the cloth was aware?... I know some go with theories of the Priesthood somehow being involved?... I dont think so?

I personally think only the two of them are in on it - my concious mind just cannot comprehend :confused: that they could have acted it all out to this degree if ANYONE else was in on it... I just cant comprehend that - I think they have duped EVERYONE - I think they are deranged enough to have convinced themselves - what a terrible, terrible state of affairs...

I found it incomprehensable how they were still dropping the kids off at the Kids Club everyday - I didn't see them (my son did) and other guests said how they had seen them sitting by the pool etc - how could you carry on life as usual IF your child had been abducted so close by:confused: they pass that apartment everyday - they are very sick individuals IMHO.

Diane

[angelmom]

Oh Diane, how nice to see and hear from you again. I should've known it was you who went to Portugal.

I'd like to ask if you visited the PDL church while you were there. If so, do you know if has a cemetary inside?

GM made a big deal in asking for a priest at 4:30 on May 4, early in the morning after Madeleine went missing. The McCanns were also given the key to the chapel to use when they wanted for "private time". I'm wondering if they could've buried her there?

I cannot imagine any priest (or other stranger) would help them cover up a murder or accidental death, especially a priest who did not know GM from Adam. What motive would the priest have for doing such a thing?

However, I can imagine an overwhelming need to see a priest whether innocent or guilty. If innocent, I would be begging for him to pray for her to be found safely, to activate any sort of "prayer chain" or other group that might help, and to console me. If guilty I can imagine one or both of them feeling the need to "confess" - not that they'd literally confess, but that they might tell the priest, "It's all my fault. We shouldn't have left her!" and have him give them absolution.

It doesn't really work that way, but I can imagine those thoughts rolling around in the head of a devout Catholic after an accidental death, especially.

ETA: OR, maybe they just thought that's what an innocent person would do. Hmmm...

I wish they could get EQUU Search or a similar type of team there to do an all-terrain search for her body. I am astonished that this has not been done, especially if the caves and wells are as near the resort as Diane reports. I had pictured them farther off, a good drive.

[Salem]

Okay - I have to put this out there. How long was it before the Dutch physic said Maddie was in the field? Is this when the McCanns rented the car and went and got Maddie, moving her before someone actually found her?

Just my opinion and question......

Salem

[MoonGoddess]

I cannot imagine any priest (or other stranger) would help them cover up a murder or accidental death, especially a priest who did not know GM from Adam. What motive would the priest have for doing such a thing?

However, I can imagine an overwhelming need to see a priest whether innocent or guilty. If innocent, I would be begging for him to pray for her to be found safely, to activate any sort of "prayer chain" or other group that might help, and to console me. If guilty I can imagine one or both of them feeling the need to "confess" - not that they'd literally confess, but that they might tell the priest, "It's all my fault. We shouldn't have left her!" and have him give them absolution.

It doesn't really work that way, but I can imagine those thoughts rolling around in the head of a devout Catholic after an accidental death, especially.

ETA: OR, maybe they just thought that's what an innocent person would do. Hmmm...

I wish they could get EQUU Search or a similar type of team there to do an all-terrain search for her body. I am astonished that this has not been done, especially if the caves and wells are as near the resort as Diane reports. I had pictured them farther off, a good drive.

Thats what I was trying to say angelmom - I think they have probably sat in Church and tried to plea bargain with God, even getting involved in Child Welfare issues as a kind of penance... I thought it interesting that Kate said to the Pope... along the lines of 'please pray for Madeleine Holy Father' - not 'please pray that our child be returned' or suchlike - it was like she was asking him to pray for her soul... just IMHO of course...

They would do better to confess and allow their child a proper burial...

[BirdieBoo]

The way I see it, there are a few possible solutions in no particular order of my preference:

1: There was no blood, this was a police ploy used to obtain a confession

2: There is a shortage of rental cars and the car had been previously used by the "real killer" in commission of the crime

3: The blood was planted by the "real killer"

4: The parents killed Madeleine and used the car to transport her body

5: There was blood transfer from an item the parents had in their posession

Personally I have always thought Madeleine was dead and the parents did it from day 1. Their story about leaving the children alone & Madeleine disappearing is too far-fetched for their socioeconomic status. I might believe it if we were talking about a couple of teenage parents living in a slum (not that all economically-challenged teenage parents would do this) but not a well-heeled pair of doctors on a resort holiday. They could easily afford child care.

[angelmom]

Thats what I was trying to say angelmom - I think they have probably sat in Church and tried to plea bargain with God, even getting involved in Child Welfare issues as a kind of penance... I thought it interesting that Kate said to the Pope... along the lines of 'please pray for Madeleine Holy Father' - not 'please pray that our child be returned' or suchlike - it was like she was asking him to pray for her soul... just IMHO of course...

They would do better to confess and allow their child a proper burial...

EXACTLY.

[CaliKid]

Okay - I have to put this out there. How long was it before the Dutch physic said Maddie was in the field? Is this when the McCanns rented the car and went and got Maddie, moving her before someone actually found her?

Just my opinion and question......

Salem

Hi Salem,

Funny you should ask that. I was thinking the same thing last night. I don't remember when the psychic sent the letter to the Dutch newspaper, but I do remember the McCanns reaction- anger that someone would say such a thing and the media would call them to ask what they thought.

[MoonGoddess]

Okay - I have to put this out there. How long was it before the Dutch physic said Maddie was in the field? Is this when the McCanns rented the car and went and got Maddie, moving her before someone actually found her?

Just my opinion and question......

Salem

It was interesting his reaction to all that wasn't it Salem - he did get rather angry about the fact he wasn't notified - Odiaxere - where they were searching is about nine miles out from Luz...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2102182,00.html

Wednesday June 13, 2007
Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

It is understood the author states that the four-year-old lies buried under rocks in deserted scrubland in an area called Odiaxere, some nine miles from the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz, where Madeleine went missing.

From what I understand the McC's hired a car 25 days? after Maddie went missing so they would have had it for a couple of weeks before this mediums claim...

[Chanler]

The way I see it, there are a few possible solutions in no particular order of my preference:

1: There was no blood, this was a police ploy used to obtain a confession

2: There is a shortage of rental cars and the car had been previously used by the "real killer" in commission of the crime

3: The blood was planted by the "real killer"

4: The parents killed Madeleine and used the car to transport her body

5: There was blood transfer from an item the parents had in their posession

Personally I have always thought Madeleine was dead and the parents did it from day 1. Their story about leaving the children alone & Madeleine disappearing is too far-fetched for their socioeconomic status. I might believe it if we were talking about a couple of teenage parents living in a slum (not that all economically-challenged teenage parents would do this) but not a well-heeled pair of doctors on a resort holiday. They could easily afford child care.

I like your list of solutions, BirdieBoo. There are a few possible caveats: The tests, as I understand, are still preliminary; or at least were so on the 6th, according to BBC. Also some of the reports swirling indicate that the substance might not be blood. I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.

[mrsmousemat]

If I'm not mistaken, the McCanns were pictured in the car with the twins' pushchair/stroller in the back.

It's conceivable that the blood was transferred from the apartment via its wheels. Or if, you beleive she was killed by the McCanns, that the pushchair was used to remove the body.

[MoonGoddess]

If I'm not mistaken, the McCanns were pictured in the car with the twins' pushchair/stroller in the back.

It's conceivable that the blood was transferred from the apartment via its wheels. Or if, you beleive she was killed by the McCanns, that the pushchair was used to remove the body.

Hi mrsmousemat:)

That is a very feasable theory - the police did remove one of the ceramic floor tiles which indicated that there could have been blood on the floor, so yes the wheels of the buggy could have come into contact with it and then transferred to the back of the car at a later date...

[Texana]

Thats what I was trying to say angelmom - I think they have probably sat in Church and tried to plea bargain with God, even getting involved in Child Welfare issues as a kind of penance... I thought it interesting that Kate said to the Pope... along the lines of 'please pray for Madeleine Holy Father' - not 'please pray that our child be returned' or suchlike - it was like she was asking him to pray for her soul... just IMHO of course...

They would do better to confess and allow their child a proper burial...

I agree with your scenario of what they were thinking when they were alone in the chapel/church.

I don't see any priest be willing to hide any body, but anything said to the priest remains under the seal of the confessional. I don't believe one priest can even tell another, but I'm not completely certain. However, if the McCanns did confess and receive absolution, then they might very well consider working for better laws for children's safety a kind of penance.

One more thing: If the window of time is long enough to allow an abductor to leave with a living child, it's long enough to allow for anyone else to leave with a dead one.

[angarella]

Hi angarella:)

I am colomoms 'freind' - I didn't notice any 'ice machines' near the resort. All the apartments at the OC vary - ours was over two floors so very different to the McC's one but I beleive the facilities inside are about the same, ours had a fridge/freezer and no way would even a small body fit inside one. I have toyed with the idea that they (McC'S) were into their tennis - aren't tennis balls kept at a certain temperature? in an iced container? just how they would have had access to that I really dont know or beleive that would be feasable - I am of the belief that as there is miles and miles of waste/barren scrubland VERY close to the resort - this would be the most feasable method of disposal to me.

I personally feel that at some point Madeleines body was transported in a suitcase, whether that same suitcase was then used to transport their belongings in the back of their hire car to their new apartment - I am not sure... but I sincerely hope that the PJ have checked to see if they are in posession of the same suitcases that they arrived with - I doubt it!!

Somebody mentioned the Tapas staff being able to have been aware of all the comings and goings of the group - I was VERY surprised at how small the Tapas bar was (and the fact that Tapas was not on the menu!!) there was approx 24/30 placed settings (you HAVE to prebook due to limited space) - this was a group of nine, 4 tables would have to have been placed together to accomodate the size of the party, there were two cooks on display in an open air type kitchen preparing the food, there were 3 waiting staff in attendance when we ate there, and it was not full, I would imagine you would have about 1 member of staff attending 3 tables (depending on size) so it would be easy for the staff to be fully aware of the comings and goings.

I do hope this makes sense.

Love to everyone:blowkiss:
Diane

Thank you SO MUCH for your response and all of the research that you do on the actual sight for us!

I always thought that the staff at the Tapas bar would easily be able to monitor the comings and goings of the dinner party. Every on site restaurant in Mexico that we have been to, has been very small and not very crowded. But had lots of staff to attend to us. So, I would see that they would be able to notice these things. I know that Mexico and Portugal are not the same, I was just using that as a comparison.

Once again, thank you for your response and all that you have done! You are much appreciated!

xo

Ang

[Texana]

Moongoddess/Diane (lovely name,by the way!)

That is so interesting about the bar/restaurant staff and table settings. It is yet another fact that makes the scenario different in reality than what one might think from the original reporting.

Originally, we read that the family was vacationing with their children, and spent their time with the children during the day, then going out to dinner with adult friends in the evening. Come to find out, the children were in the day care/creche during the day, and the only days they were with their parents, was the day the creche was closed.

Originally, we heard that the restaurant was like "eating in the garden" of one's house. Reality, the apartment was a block away, and not easily seen from the restaurant, with a back door open and opening onto a public thoroughfare.

Originally, we heard that comments from the Tapas 9 diners and from the staff, that seemed to be contradictory. It seemed that perhaps the staff would be more likely to get things wrong, in a busy restaurant with other diners. But now we see that the staff was much larger and the restaurant much smaller than one would think. The staff's word carries much more weight than the usual U.S. large vacation resort staff would have.

[Chanler]

The way I see it, there are a few possible solutions in no particular order of my preference:

1: There was no blood, this was a police ploy used to obtain a confession

2: There is a shortage of rental cars and the car had been previously used by the "real killer" in commission of the crime

3: The blood was planted by the "real killer"

4: The parents killed Madeleine and used the car to transport her body

5: There was blood transfer from an item the parents had in their posession

Personally I have always thought Madeleine was dead and the parents did it from day 1. Their story about leaving the children alone & Madeleine disappearing is too far-fetched for their socioeconomic status. I might believe it if we were talking about a couple of teenage parents living in a slum (not that all economically-challenged teenage parents would do this) but not a well-heeled pair of doctors on a resort holiday. They could easily afford child care.

There seem to be some denials that there was evidence of blood in the car. This again from the respected Guardian Unlimited, which includes The Observer:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2165452,00.html

Some reports have already spoken of blood found not only in the flat, but in a car that they rented more than two weeks after Madeleine went missing. Others, elaborating on the theme, have suggested the police suspect Kate of having some connection with the death of her daughter and of then possible transporting her body. 'All completely false,' a senior source close to the investigation told The Observer yesterday, saying that no blood at all had been found in the car and that a DNA sample taken from its interior, though still a likely match for Madeleine, could have come from just about any item with which the McCanns' daughter had come into contact in the days before she vanished.

[BirdieBoo]

I like your list of solutions, BirdieBoo. There are a few possible caveats: The tests, as I understand, are still preliminary; or at least were so on the 6th, according to BBC. Also some of the reports swirling indicate that the substance might not be blood. I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.

Thanks Chanler. I noticed after I posted that I kind of jumped right into this thread without regard for where the discussion had gone in the meantime.
I saw Tricia's title: "Explain the blood in the trunk" so I explained it :) I still haven't had time to go through all the Madeleine posts, I have been away from WS for a little while.

I really wish she would be found but as I stated in my post I do not have a lot of hope for poor little Madeleine:(

[Shazza]

Having eyes and ears at the resort where the McCanns were holidaying has been a great insight and answered a lot of questions that a lot of us have been asking, thankyou MoonGoddess for the information provided by you whilst in Portugal.

[delilah]

The forensic information is incredibly confusing, not least because we are getting this all from 'unofficial' sources and there is speculation that the PJ have a strategy of releasing snippets to prompt reaction from the McCanns.

Cadaver smell
I don't know a great deal about what and how the Brit dogs detect this but I understand it requires the subject to have been dead for about 2 hours. I don't know for how long the scent persists (ie if a dead body was in a room a year ago, would the dog still pick up the scent?) The point of this being if the dog did detect a scent, that does not mean it was from Madeleine's dead body. Given we are dealing here with two doctors, it is more than possible that one of them (more likely KM, being a part time GP) could have a cadaver scent on her from months back. What I thought was odd was the ALLEGED claim that KM had said, on being confronted with the evidence of cadaver smell on CuddleCat, that she took it to work with her pre-holiday (?). Furthermore, as I've posted elsewhere, when could the CuddleCat test have been carried out given the wretched toy has been with KM all the time? Perhaps this is all just yet more inaccurate reporting.

Blood/DNA/bodily fluids
The crime scene was completely contaminated after the incident. Madeleine's DNA and possibly minute traces of blood (kids constantly sustaining minor cuts, etc) could conceivably been present on the McCanns themselves, on clothing, on CuddleCat, personal belongings etc. As human beings we are dropping microscopic DNA samples everywhere we go, from dead skin, sweat, etc. So the presence of microscopic samples could have come from Madeleine when she was alive and what we have here is entirely innocent transference. The key is what the samples found in the car really were, if indeed anything was found at all! If it indicated post-death traces, that would be extremely significant. If pre-death, I don't think it's that important.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

...
I personally think only the two of them are in on it - my concious mind just cannot comprehend :confused: that they could have acted it all out to this degree if ANYONE else was in on it... I just cant comprehend that - I think they have duped EVERYONE - I think they are deranged enough to have convinced themselves - what a terrible, terrible state of affairs...


I absolutely 100% agree with you here. There is so much talk of the entire travel party, to a select few being in on this. There is NO WAY. If anyone else knew about it, the McCanns would be sitting in jail awaiting their trial by now.

[MysteryAddict]

If I'm not mistaken, the McCanns were pictured in the car with the twins' pushchair/stroller in the back.

It's conceivable that the blood was transferred from the apartment via its wheels. Or if, you beleive she was killed by the McCanns, that the pushchair was used to remove the body.

Very shrewd deduction!!!!!
Now that makes sense- that if there was blood in
the apartment it could have gotten on the wheels
of the stroller.
When the stroller was put in the trunk of that car,
the blood was transferred to the floor mat.
Wow, I do believe you hit the nail on the head!

[BloodshotEye]

Blood vs. Bodily Fluid in the Trunk
I am reading various news sources, and they seem to contradict eachother. One reports blood, the others report bodily fluid.

If it was bodily fluid, and it can somehow, be determined that it is not simply a transfer from miscellaneous articles of clothing, I am speculating that this DNA is possibly from a bout of emesis Maddie had while under sedation that night.

For the moment, I am speculating that Maddie had an adverse reaction the the sedative. She had a sedative induced apnea, or she aspirated vomit.

The stroller theory, is pure genius! You're right; so easy to move things about. Wonder if these trollys are also owned by resort, and are available to any of the guests (kind of like bicycles). That might account for the ability to "ditch" one the McC's owned, and quickly pick up another double. Interesting that the sunshade looks the same.