Where is Madeleine? Where is she?

[christine2448]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:

[mic730]

I too could beat my head againist a brick wall :banghead: when I think about where Madeleine could be. I very much to lean towards that she is dead. I also thought that about Elizabeth Smart and I am so glad I was wrong.

[Shazza]

That is the million dollar question.

[Texana]

My head says that if she were still alive, she would have been released by now, because of the big reward and the distinctive look of her eyes. You can change many things about a child, but her iris could never be disguised, so that would always be a give away to anyone.

I think that someone disposed of her in one of the rocky little caves along the coast or in the sea.

My head thinks these things, but my heart wants to believe she is alive.

[JanetElaine]

Before I can answer, I have a question first: on what day were those dogs brought in that tracked her scent to another apartment and then to the supermarket?

[CaliKid]

I am going to throw some ideas out there, but I don't have links to prove them except for the suitcase issue which we've already discussed. I am in contact with other people looking stuff up and trying to find out where the info originally came from.

One of the challenges put to Kate McCann was, when was the last time someone besides the family saw Madeleine alive? There is a theory that the so-called "last picture of Maddie" (her in the pink hat with her dad and sibling) was actually taken several days before, not on May 3, and her parents changed the date on the camera as a way to provide an alibi.

There are also questions about whether she went with her parents to a cafe that night for a snack before they went out to dinner. From what I understand, the CCTV tape was never found to prove she'd eaten with them. This leads to speculation that she might have died much earlier than that evening and the McCanns had much more time to dispose of her body.

So the question is, did Madeleine go to the creche on that Thursday afternoon following lunch? Was she there at all that day?

From 5/06/07: McCann and his wife, both 39, yesterday walked hand in hand through the apartment complex. They had lunch with the twins at the same tapas bar as the evening before. McCann returned alone to the apartment, emerging with a suitcase and a bucket and spade for the twins."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1752277.ece

There are reports that the McCanns complained about a non-working refrigerator in one of the apartments they stayed in and having to replace it. Early in the investigation, there was mention of searching a freezer. Was Madeleine's body dumped with the "broken" refrigerator?

Gerry McCann's frequent travels back and forth from the apartment to the airport in Faro are also suspicious. He easily could've disposed of Madeleine's body during one of the trips. Apparently, blood from Madeleine was found in the car they rented 25 days after she disappeared.

The McCanns have had a key to the Catholic church at PDL since early on, and they have asked for time alone inside to pray. Just recently, the Archbishop in Lisbon reprimanded the priest of the PDL church for handing the key to the church over to the McCanns. It's not known whether there is a cemetary vault inside the church, but most assuredly there is one outside.

And lastly, a new reverend at either the Catholic or Anglican church at PDL began his job 3 days after Madeleine's disappearance. The retiring priest/father returned to England. Gerry McCann was frantically asking to speak to a priest in the early morning hours of the night Maddie went missing.

[Shazza]

The refrigerator is playing on my mind, Calikids post is the first I have heard about this, but I could have missed it in a earlier post.
Its seems that all these little bits of information are starting to tell the story of Madelaines disappearance. If they had to hide the body for a long time the refrigerator is the ideal place.

[CaliKid]

Shazza, I hadn't heard about the fridge either until today at Aussie Mike's. I asked for a link to the report but don't have it yet. And we may never find it because of the way the news from the UK disappeared or changed constantly. There are many, many links for old articles that don't work anymore, and I suspect that is going to become the case more and more as the British media tries to cover their butts from the way they so blantantly backed the parents.

Does anyone know how to get into back issues of the McCanns' blog?

[philamena]

Where is Maddie? Don't we all want and in a sense have a need to know? I realize that all our hearts break for her. I pray for her every night.

I hate to admit this but I think she's dead and buried. :(

[Trino]

Before I can answer, I have a question first: on what day were those dogs brought in that tracked her scent to another apartment and then to the supermarket?

I'm not certain where the scent was lost, but dogs did follow it to another apartment, then lost it after that.

So, how could the McCann's have disposed of a body?

Possibilities:

1. Madeline was immediately taken in another vehicle. How was this done, since the McCann's had no vehicle until 3 weeks after Madeline disappeared. Did someone help them?

2. Madeline was buried (access to children's shovels), then moved to another location after they rented a car. If so, why didn't the dogs trace this? For sure, DNA showed Madeline was in the trunk of the rental car.

Unanswered Questions:

1. Why was cadaver scent on Cuddle Cat? Since this supposedly was Madeline's favorite toy, did she have it with her when she was killed? Did they forget to hide it?

2. Why didn't Kate throw away her jeans which contained cadaver scent? Were they her favorite pair?

3. Did the McCann's dispose of any of their clothing?

4. When was the last time Madeline was actually seen by a live person? (The camera date may have been altered.)

[poco]

I'm not certain where the scent was lost, but dogs did follow it to another apartment, then lost it after that.

So, how could the McCann's have disposed of a body?

Possibilities:

1. Madeline was immediately taken in another vehicle. How was this done, since the McCann's had no vehicle until 3 weeks after Madeline disappeared. Did someone help them?

2. Madeline was buried (access to children's shovels), then moved to another location after they rented a car. If so, why didn't the dogs trace this? For sure, DNA showed Madeline was in the trunk of the rental car.

Unanswered Questions:

1. Why was cadaver scent on Cuddle Cat? Since this supposedly was Madeline's favorite toy, did she have it with her when she was killed? Did they forget to hide it?

2. Why didn't Kate throw away her jeans which contained cadaver scent? Were they her favorite pair?

3. Did the McCann's dispose of any of their clothing?

4. When was the last time Madeline was actually seen by a live person? (The camera date may have been altered.)

Can you alter the camera date AFTER the filming has taken place?

[Edwards20]

There are reports that the McCanns complained about a non-working refrigerator in one of the apartments they stayed in and having to replace it. Early in the investigation, there was mention of searching a freezer. Was Madeleine's body dumped with the "broken" refrigerator?
How do you move a refrigerator containing a "body" and no one notices ? The doors never came open ? I would think in an apartment setting this would not be a chest type freezer, but either a side by side or freezer on top unit. However, I have no idea of the design of appliances in Portugal. Are they different ? I just can't phathom the idea of somone moving a freezer and not noticing the body of a child inside of it.

[Shazza]

How do you move a refrigerator containing a "body" and no one notices ? The doors never came open ? I would think in an apartment setting this would not be a chest type freezer, but either a side by side or freezer on top unit. However, I have no idea of the design of appliances in Portugal. Are they different ? I just can't phathom the idea of somone moving a freezer and not noticing the body of a child inside of it.
Hi Edwards20, the body in the refrigerator sounds a bit far fetched, but anything is possible in this case, there has been so many twists it would make the best sellers list if there was ever a book written.

[Edwards20]

Hi Edwards20, the body in the refrigerator sounds a bit far fetched, but anything is possible in this case, there has been so many twists it would make the best sellers list if there was ever a book written. Shazza, I do agree that ANTYHING is possible ... in any case for that matter.

Sometimes what I post is not necessarily my opinion, but a devil's advocate comment simply to provoke discussion and thought, and prevent tunnel vision.

I like to keep an open mind. :innocent:

[CaliKid]

Okay, I found something.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49652&page=3

Apparently we discussed the priest situation here at WS back in late May. The original link doesn't work, but what was discovered was that the priest who had been at the Praia da Luz church was Father John Wilson who moved back to the UK and took up a church in Wells, the same town Robert Murat's ex-wife lived in. Check out posts #87 through 143.

[Trino]

How do you move a refrigerator containing a "body" and no one notices ? The doors never came open ? I would think in an apartment setting this would not be a chest type freezer, but either a side by side or freezer on top unit. However, I have no idea of the design of appliances in Portugal. Are they different ? I just can't phathom the idea of somone moving a freezer and not noticing the body of a child inside of it.

I don't think it would have been possible to move a small refrigerator with a body inside, but what if the body were stored there for a couple of days? It's rather debateable when Madeline was last seen. I think the McCanns say they took her w/o the twins to a restaurant the day she disappeared, yet this has not been verified.

Was this the refrigerator that supposedly wasn't working, or was it a refrigerator in their new apartment? Where did the non-working refrigerator go - DNA???

[CaliKid]

What if Madeleine had been stored in the refrigerator for awhile and then removed and either buried or thrown in the ocean. Then the McCanns deliberately break the fridge so a new one must be purchased, getting rid of the one with potential DNA in it.

My only problem is that in a rented apartment, usually it's the landlord who handles appliance replacement, but I suppose the McCanns could've worked something out with them under the guise of helping out the owner.

[Shazza]

Okay, I found something.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49652&page=3

Apparently we discussed the priest situation here at WS back in late May. The original link doesn't work, but what was discovered was that the priest who had been at the Praia da Luz church was Father John Wilson who moved back to the UK and took up a church in Wells, the same town Robert Murat's ex-wife lived in. Check out posts #87 through 143.
Are you thinking that Madelaine could have been taken back to England by a priest, if so how.

[kazzbar]

I have never beleved Maddie to be alive...I think her body was dumped in the sea after being concealed in luggage very soon after she was found dead from an overdose.
Overdosed to get her to be quiet whilst parents had a 'nice' dinner...without interruption and crying. I do not believe any of those kidies were being checked on as often as 'party' table claim.

[angelmom]

I think the fastest way to find Maddie's little body would be to declare all of the Tapas 9 "arguido" and question them about conspiracy (aiding and abetting after the fact) to commit murder. One of them will roll.

Unlikely, I know.

[Zelda]

If the murderer buried the body in the ground what did he use to dig with? Two little sand shovels would have taken forever. I don't think the friend took his children to the beach with large shovels. They were probably small sand shovels.

[CaliKid]

Are you thinking that Madelaine could have been taken back to England by a priest, if so how.

I'm more thinking she may be buried in the church vault, possibly under the misguided direction of a priest or without his knowledge.

But being taken back to the UK has come up in some of the other forums under various conspiracy theories.

[englishleigh]

I think the fastest way to find Maddie's little body would be to declare all of the Tapas 9 "arguido" and question them about conspiracy (aiding and abetting after the fact) to commit murder. One of them will roll.

Unlikely, I know.

I think this is a great idea and I wish the PJ would do just that.

[CaliKid]

I agree. I believe someone in the group knows more than they're saying. Keep them in Portugal so they can't see their families or work, and sooner or later the co-conspirator will talk.

[Salem]

I'm more thinking she may be buried in the church vault, possibly under the misguided direction of a priest or without his knowledge.

But being taken back to the UK has come up in some of the other forums under various conspiracy theories.

Cali - I think you are on to something here. Is it possible there was another funeral at the church with burial in the church cemetary/vault sometime between the day Maddie disappeared and when the sniffer dogs discovered her scent in the car?

Putting all this McCann religious stuff together:

1. It was reported that the McCanns were not such "devout" catholics until Maddie disappeared.
2. Gerry desparately wanted a priest at 4:00 in the morning on 5/4/07.
3. McCanns went to see the pope.
4. McCanns are now spending a lot of time at that church.
5. McCanns have their own key so they can spend private time

It might be a stretch, but I'd bet $$ that Maddie is very near to that church and it is very possible she is in the vault or in a shallow grave the McCanns managed to dig over a period of time before they placed her there. Maybe why she had to be transported in the rental car (if she was) 5 weeks after her disappearance. Might have taken a bit of time to dig a grave with children's toys. And it would have been some work to keep it from being discovered before it was large enough.

I bet that's where she is. Who can we call to have them go check? Does anyone speak Portugese?

Salem

[Shazza]

Cali - I think you are on to something here. Is it possible there was another funeral at the church with burial in the church cemetary/vault sometime between the day Maddie disappeared and when the sniffer dogs discovered her scent in the car?

Putting all this McCann religious stuff together:

1. It was reported that the McCanns were not such "devout" catholics until Maddie disappeared.
2. Gerry desparately wanted a priest at 4:00 in the morning on 5/4/07.
3. McCanns went to see the pope.
4. McCanns are now spending a lot of time at that church.
5. McCanns have their own key so they can spend private time

It might be a stretch, but I'd bet $$ that Maddie is very near to that church and it is very possible she is in the vault or in a shallow grave the McCanns managed to dig over a period of time before they placed her there. Maybe why she had to be transported in the rental car (if she was) 5 weeks after her disappearance. Might have taken a bit of time to dig a grave with children's toys. And it would have been some work to keep it from being discovered before it was large enough.

I bet that's where she is. Who can we call to have them go check? Does anyone speak Portugese?

Salem
A very good possibility, would love to know if they have searched the church and surrounding areas, were there any funerals at the church since Madelaines disappearance, could they have put her body in someones coffin, if a coffin was stored in the vault before a funeral, the McCanns had access, sounds so far out there but I think it would be worth checking out.

[petra]

I don't have any idea where Madeleine is. Even though unlikely, I sure hope it is with a loving family somewhere, somehow.

I do know, Madeleine is not on her way back home this morning with the rest of her family.

And this makes me just so sick and so sad.

Madeleine, we are praying for a miracle on this Sunday morning !

[jacobean]

Theres some real possibilities here, i think the church yard/vaults definitely need to be checked out, very good idea calikid! Im also very interested in the cliffs and caves around the area - we discussed before and (i think) a portuguese poster had said that there were plenty of places there that would be easy to hide a small body. I think the refrigerator, for me, is out, most appartments in EU only have a small freezer section (a couple of drawers in the top or bottom of the fridge), even with a separate freezer, it would not have been a chest freezer (Concur with Edward20 here) so i dont think it would be big enough.

just my 2 cents, got a couple more, but trying to work in my head first!

[CaliKid]

Not being Catholic, I don't really know for sure, but I've read enough books to believe that Catholics require burial in hallowed ground. Like in a church yard?

[Salem]

I think we really need to call in the thoughts about the church yard. Cali - this is really your idea, do you want to call it in? I will call it in if I can't get another taker. I prefer not to be the one because I am hard of hearing and chances are they will not speak English and I will never be able to communicate with them.

Do you think PLE or even the British police have an email address I could write to? Is it on findmadeleine? I'll go look!

[Barnaby]

OMG! What a theory! gerry McCann could have gone to the churchyard to bury Madeleine in a recently opened grave perhaps so that noone would notice!

[MoonGoddess]

I think we really need to call in the thoughts about the church yard. Cali - this is really your idea, do you want to call it in? I will call it in if I can't get another taker. I prefer not to be the one because I am hard of hearing and chances are they will not speak English and I will never be able to communicate with them.

Do you think PLE or even the British police have an email address I could write to? Is it on findmadeleine? I'll go look!

Hi Salem:)

The email address for PJ is:-

dic.portimao@pj.pt

I have posted some pics on 'pictures' thread - there is one of the cemetary and its location in relation to the church...

:blowkiss:

[Salem]

Moongodess - thank you so much!!! I'm hoping they will understand English? I'll go look at the pictures while I wait to hear from Cali.

Cali - do you mind if I send an email. It was your original idea and I don't want to step on your toes, but Maddie's being in that graveyard/vault/church yard just makes so much sense to me that I just think an effort should be made to get PLE to take a really close look there.

Salem

[Salem]

This is what I propose to say:

To Whom it May Concern - the matter of Madeleine McCann I am respectfully requesting that the Portugese Law Enforcement complete a thorough search of the local church and it grounds. It is possible that Maddie may have been buried with another corpse or that a grave was prepared for her over a period of time in the church yard.
Given the parent’s religious beliefs it is logical to assume the parents would try to keep the child on sacred ground and near their faith.

I am open to any suggestions, etc.

Thanks!

Salem

[Salem]

The matter of Madeleine McCann would be in the email "subject" line.

[concernedperson]

Moongodess - thank you so much!!! I'm hoping they will understand English? I'll go look at the pictures while I wait to hear from Cali.

Cali - do you mind if I send an email. It was your original idea and I don't want to step on your toes, but Maddie's being in that graveyard/vault/church yard just makes so much sense to me that I just think an effort should be made to get PLE to take a really close look there.

Salem

I was researching for another case today and ran across something very similar. The murder victim was placed in the grave but the cadaver dogs were able to distinguish because the murder victim had not been embalmed and therefore cadaver dog alerts discovered the body.

[Salem]

Concernedperson - I put that in my email. Do you remember what case you were looking at? It would be nice if I could refer them to the case, might help them to seriously consider my email?

Thanks,

Salem

[englishleigh]

Not being Catholic, I don't really know for sure, but I've read enough books to believe that Catholics require burial in hallowed ground. Like in a church yard?

No, they don't. They do prefer that Catholics are buried, but cremation is now okay, too. Any cemetery is ok if you are Catholic. I know many Catholics who are buried ion our city cemetery here and it's just a city cemetery and multi-denominational.

[concernedperson]

Concernedperson - I put that in my email. Do you remember what case you were looking at? It would be nice if I could refer them to the case, might help them to seriously consider my email?

Thanks,

Salem

Sorry, I don't but it was in Georgia. I spent many hours researching and my brain is frazzled.

[Salem]

That's okay CP. I put the info in the email anyway.

Cali - I haven't heard back from you, so I'm just sending the email.

Salem

[Salem]

Cali - I sent the email last night. And did you notice? Many of the news reports today say the PLE will be searching near the church and possibly at the church. Now, I'm sure it wasn't just because I emailed them, others must have suspicions also. But I really think if they search that church thoroughly, they will find little Maddie.

Salem

[Salem]

For me, its the only reason I can think of that makes any sense for moving the body so many weeks later.....

Salem

[CaliKid]

I hope so. I had this dream last night that they found Madeleine there and after forensic testing there was no doubt that strong sedatives had been administered and her parents were the perps. At that point, despite interference from the British government, the parents were arrested and tried. I woke up before I found out what happened next.

[aussie_mum]

Just having a thought..... under what conditions does a body become 'mummified'? Cool, dark, dry places? Perhaps a vault or similar in a church?? Then she was moved explaining how she could be moved with no major ickiness and why the hair was able to come out?

[missacorah]

Another grave that was already prepared would be the perfect place to dispose of a body. How many funerals if any have there been there since the disappearance I wonder?

[MeddleGuru]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007420470,00.html
"The target for the police excavations is a new pedestrianised area outside the Church of Our Lady of Light in the resort of Praia da Luz — where the youngster vanished from the family’s holiday apartment in May.

"Detectives believe Maddie — who would now be aged four — was killed accidentally and her body left temporarily in a roadworks trench.

"It has since been filled in. Cops will be hunting for evidence Maddie was there but do NOT expect it to be her final resting place."

Note: the article does say the police are operating only on a theory.

[Jeana (DP)]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007420470,00.html
"The target for the police excavations is a new pedestrianised area outside the Church of Our Lady of Light in the resort of Praia da Luz — where the youngster vanished from the family’s holiday apartment in May.

"Detectives believe Maddie — who would now be aged four — was killed accidentally and her body left temporarily in a roadworks trench.

"It has since been filled in. Cops will be hunting for evidence Maddie was there but do NOT expect it to be her final resting place."

Note: the article does say the police are operating only on a theory.

Seems to be pretty specific to be simply a theory.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I was researching for another case today and ran across something very similar. The murder victim was placed in the grave but the cadaver dogs were able to distinguish because the murder victim had not been embalmed and therefore cadaver dog alerts discovered the body.


This is where my theory comes in. I think it was a premeditated murder. Knowing that Dr. K was around "dead people" on a regular basis, (According to her statement), she probably could get her hands on formaldehyde, or other type of embalming fluid. I think they killed her, then carefully bled her out, (maybe in the bath tub) and filled those syringes with embalming fluid, and that's how they kept her body from rapidly decomposing. An embalmed body can last for weeks. Heck, they had the last Pope's body displayed for almost a month before they finally buried, (crypt) him.

[Jeana (DP)]

This is where my theory comes in. I think it was a premeditated murder. Knowing that Dr. K was around "dead people" on a regular basis, (According to her statement), she probably could get her hands on formaldehyde, or other type of embalming fluid. I think they killed her, then carefully bled her out, (maybe in the bath tub) and filled those syringes with embalming fluid, and that's how they kept her body from rapidly decomposing. An embalmed body can last for weeks. Heck, they had the last Pope's body displayed for almost a month before they finally buried, (crypt) him.

Are you serious? Is this a real theory?

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Are you serious? Is this a real theory?
I am totally serious, but it's just MY theory, I'm sure every one will disagree, and that's okay with me. I like being different and thinking outside of the box.

How else could they keep a body around for 25 days without a stench that would call in the vultures.

[sleuthin4fun]

This is where my theory comes in. I think it was a premeditated murder. Knowing that Dr. K was around "dead people" on a regular basis, (According to her statement), she probably could get her hands on formaldehyde, or other type of embalming fluid. I think they killed her, then carefully bled her out, (maybe in the bath tub) and filled those syringes with embalming fluid, and that's how they kept her body from rapidly decomposing. An embalmed body can last for weeks. Heck, they had the last Pope's body displayed for almost a month before they finally buried, (crypt) him.


Seriously? I can respect all opinions but, this is really sick. I just don't see it. I do think that the parents are somehow involved but, I think it was by accidental overdose or unintentional injury and they have tried to cover it up. If they would have "bled her out" in the bath tub there would have been so much blood they could never have gotten rid of every drop. As far as a GP getting a hold of embalming fluid that would not be all that easy either. As an RN I can also tell you that as a part time GP there is no way Kate was around very many dead bodies. Why would she be? The nurses do all the care in those situations not the Dr. Very rarely are they around.

[Brefie]

This is where my theory comes in. I think it was a premeditated murder. Knowing that Dr. K was around "dead people" on a regular basis, (According to her statement), she probably could get her hands on formaldehyde, or other type of embalming fluid. I think they killed her, then carefully bled her out, (maybe in the bath tub) and filled those syringes with embalming fluid, and that's how they kept her body from rapidly decomposing. An embalmed body can last for weeks. Heck, they had the last Pope's body displayed for almost a month before they finally buried, (crypt) him.

Don't you think they would have been arrested by now?

[Seeker]

I'm not ready to crucify these parents until it's proven that Madeliene is indeed dead.

We know that strangers abduct children from their beds when they see an opportunity arise. Danielle vanDam is a case in point as is Elizabeth Smart. We know these things really do happen.

If someone were watching this family then they would know when the best time to snatch Madeleine was. The parents have been watched consistantly since that first night. I don't believe they would have been able to take anything larger than Kate's purse anywhere without it being noticed and checked on.

I'm going to sit and wait until it's proven this child really is dead.
BTW I read somewhere that Portugues papers are known for citing rumor and innuendo as fact....I don't know if that's true, but it could be.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Seriously? I can respect all opinions but, this is really sick. I just don't see it. I do think that the parents are somehow involved but, I think it was by accidental overdose or unintentional injury and they have tried to cover it up. If they would have "bled her out" in the bath tub there would have been so much blood they could never have gotten rid of every drop. As far as a GP getting a hold of embalming fluid that would not be all that easy either. As an RN I can also tell you that as a part time GP there is no way Kate was around very many dead bodies. Why would she be? The nurses do all the care in those situations not the Dr. Very rarely are they around.

WELL...she SAID she was.

[sleuthin4fun]

WELL...she SAID she was.


I know thats what she said, I just don't believe it but, there are many things she has said that I don't believe.

[Jeana (DP)]

I am totally serious, but it's just MY theory, I'm sure every one will disagree, and that's okay with me. I like being different and thinking outside of the box.

How else could they keep a body around for 25 days without a stench that would call in the vultures.

Okay, I just want to go through it with you if you agree. Do you think that they planned the entire trip simply to murder her? Do you think they brought formaldehide with them? Don't you think that they did some sort of forensic testing in that room and that bleeding out an entire body's worth of blood in a bathtub would be pretty easy to pick up just using luminol? Wouldn't burying her be enough to keep the smell contained?

[Jeana (DP)]

I know thats what she said, I just don't believe it but, there are many things she has said that I don't believe.

Even IF she was around that many, there's absolutely no way that there could be enough transfer after that amount of time that would be required to leave the samples that were found. And this would be assuming that she disregarded EVERY single step that is required for treating and/or handling deceased bodies and having ZERO personal hygene practices.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Don't you think they would have been arrested by now?

As opposed to accidentally killing her? Why would it be different. If you have ever watched a mortician, bleeding a body out is very quite simple. It is takes is a small catheter inserted into a major artery. The catheter has a hose on it that leads to a drain. There is no splatter, it's very clean. No more mess than drawing blood for lab work.

[Jdee]

WELL...she SAID she was.

Actually that statement came from someone out of the Mirror forum where they 'heard' it from somewhere else (I know because I originally posted it here). If anybody has a link to where Kate actually said it I want to read it.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Okay, I just want to go through it with you if you agree. Do you think that they planned the entire trip simply to murder her?

Yes.

Do you think they brought formaldehide with them?
Yes.

Don't you think that they did some sort of forensic testing in that room and that bleeding out an entire body's worth of blood in a bathtub would be pretty easy to pick up just using luminol?

They could have used a hose, (catheter tubing) long enough to slide deep into the drain. She was very small, a couple plastic bag over the top of the insertion sight could keep any blood from splattering. Easy clean up, a couple showers and any trace of blood in the pipes would be swept away. . Wouldn't burying her be enough to keep the smell contained?

They could have done that anyway, but I think she was stored in a cool dry place...

[Jeana (DP)]

Yes.


Yes.



They could have used a hose, (catheter tubing) long enough to slide deep into the drain. She was very small, a couple plastic bag over the top of the insertion sight could keep any blood from splattering. Easy clean up, a couple showers and any trace of blood in the pipes would be swept away. .

They could have done that anyway, but I think she was stored in a cool dry place...

Luminol could still pick up the blood even if a tube was run down the drain, right? Do you have a theory on a motive? Any reason why they'd go to such lengths simply to murder a three-year old?

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Actually that statement came from someone out of the Mirror forum where they 'heard' it from somewhere else (I know because I originally posted it here). If anybody has a link to where Kate actually said it I want to read it.

Fair enough, maybe she wasn't around dead bodies, more gossip I guess.

[Brefie]

As opposed to accidentally killing her? Why would it be different. If you have ever watched a mortician, bleeding a body out is very quite simple. It is takes is a small catheter inserted into a major artery. The catheter has a hose on it that leads to a drain. There is no splatter, it's very clean. No more mess than drawing blood for lab work.

Well, I don't actually believe they killed her at all, that's why I believe they have not been arrested.

I had no idea your theory included a such a 'clean' procedure...I had imagined a bathtub full of blood.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Luminol could still pick up the blood even if a tube was run down the drain, right? Do you have a theory on a motive? Any reason why they'd go to such lengths simply to murder a three-year old?

Depends on how far they looked. You wouldn't normally be able to see past the "Catch drain", (the "s" shape part of the drain which purpose is to keep sewer gasses from coming back up the drain) without taking the drain apart.

Of course there are hundreds of rumors, so what can you believe right? But I seriously think there was a major problem with the child. This oppenion is based on video and pictures I have seen of her. They wanted a perfect family, and once the twins got old enough to rule out any neurological developmental disorders, (Which I believe Maddie had based on my observations, and reinforced by hearsay) they decided to rid themselves of their problem child. Perfect, beautiful family of 4. A boy and a girl as cute as buttons. The perfect amount for the dinner table.

They chose to go out of the country to create an "Aruba" situation. Hoping the local government would do anything in their power to keep it quite to avoid a tourism nightmare.

I could go on for hours, but I can tell you as a part time GP, Dr. Kate would have seen her fair share of ASD kids, and known where they were headed if Maddie was in fact ASD or developmentally delayed. I don't think they were willing to do what it takes to get Maddie the help she needed to halfway function (or maybe never) in society.

[JanetElaine]

Depends on how far they looked. You wouldn't normally be able to see past the "Catch drain", (the "s" shape part of the drain which purpose is to keep sewer gasses from coming back up the drain) without taking the drain apart.

Of course there are hundreds of rumors, so what can you believe right? But I seriously think there was a major problem with the child. This oppenion is based on video and pictures I have seen of her. They wanted a perfect family, and once the twins got old enough to rule out any neurological developmental disorders, (Which I believe Maddie had based on my observations, and reinforced by hearsay) they decided to rid themselves of their problem child. Perfect, beautiful family of 4. A boy and a girl as cute as buttons. The perfect amount for the dinner table.

They chose to go out of the country to create an "Aruba" situation. Hoping the local government would do anything in their power to keep it quite to avoid a tourism nightmare.

I could go on for hours, but I can tell you as a part time GP, Dr. Kate would have seen her fair share of ASD kids, and known where they were headed if Maddie was in fact ASD or developmentally delayed. I don't think they were willing to do what it takes to get Maddie the help she needed to halfway function (or maybe never) in society.

Why did they bring all their friends with them? If it was to more easily create an alibi, they would have done a better job at it, since there is so much controversy about what actually happened that night in the restaurant. Interestedwoman, that's one far-fetched theory right there and I'm not buying it, but it was interesting nonetheless! :)

[sleuthin4fun]

Why did they bring all their friends with them? If it was to more easily create an alibi, they would have done a better job at it, since there is so much controversy about what actually happened that night in the restaurant. Interestedwoman, that's one far-fetched theory right there and I'm not buying it, but it was interesting nonetheless! :)

Janet,
Yes I would say intersting. Interstedwoman, I have a very strong stomach but that theory makes me sick.

[meowy]

Oh my gosh.. I think I'll take a break from the Maddie forum, I wish I hadn't read this thread. Far too much gory precise detail for a theory. I'm all for everyone having theories and ideas so don't get me wrong.. I'm in no way dissing your opinions!

But really, a new thread with a warning in the title would have saved me from barfing up a really great lunch.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Why did they bring all their friends with them? If it was to more easily create an alibi, they would have done a better job at it, since there is so much controversy about what actually happened that night in the restaurant. Interestedwoman, that's one far-fetched theory right there and I'm not buying it, but it was interesting nonetheless! :)


As a smoke screen. Sorry if I grossed you folks out :silenced:

[Jeana (DP)]

Depends on how far they looked. You wouldn't normally be able to see past the "Catch drain", (the "s" shape part of the drain which purpose is to keep sewer gasses from coming back up the drain) without taking the drain apart.

Of course there are hundreds of rumors, so what can you believe right? But I seriously think there was a major problem with the child. This oppenion is based on video and pictures I have seen of her. They wanted a perfect family, and once the twins got old enough to rule out any neurological developmental disorders, (Which I believe Maddie had based on my observations, and reinforced by hearsay) they decided to rid themselves of their problem child. Perfect, beautiful family of 4. A boy and a girl as cute as buttons. The perfect amount for the dinner table.

They chose to go out of the country to create an "Aruba" situation. Hoping the local government would do anything in their power to keep it quite to avoid a tourism nightmare.

I could go on for hours, but I can tell you as a part time GP, Dr. Kate would have seen her fair share of ASD kids, and known where they were headed if Maddie was in fact ASD or developmentally delayed. I don't think they were willing to do what it takes to get Maddie the help she needed to halfway function (or maybe never) in society.


Thanks very much!! Very interesting theory. I look forward to reading more from you.

[JanetElaine]

As a smoke screen. Sorry if I grossed you folks out :silenced:

I have to clarify this.... the reason I'm 'not buying it' is because it's too much work to get rid of a 3 year old. They could have done all of this at home. Throw a party as a smoke screen. Invite everyone and their brother, also friends of friends of friends. Oops, one of them must have took her. Or with all of the crowd, the stranger snuck in. Hey, I've felt like the inventor of far-fetched at times so I really appreciate your theory.... just still not buying it, lol.

[Pocono Sleuther]

Where do you think they kept the body before permanently burying it? I do believe she's near that church. And I do believe they killed her either accidently or in a rage. I really think Kate snapped just as Patsy Ramsey did.

[christine2448]

Depends on how far they looked. You wouldn't normally be able to see past the "Catch drain", (the "s" shape part of the drain which purpose is to keep sewer gasses from coming back up the drain) without taking the drain apart.

Of course there are hundreds of rumors, so what can you believe right? But I seriously think there was a major problem with the child. This oppenion is based on video and pictures I have seen of her. They wanted a perfect family, and once the twins got old enough to rule out any neurological developmental disorders, (Which I believe Maddie had based on my observations, and reinforced by hearsay) they decided to rid themselves of their problem child. Perfect, beautiful family of 4. A boy and a girl as cute as buttons. The perfect amount for the dinner table.

They chose to go out of the country to create an "Aruba" situation. Hoping the local government would do anything in their power to keep it quite to avoid a tourism nightmare.

I could go on for hours, but I can tell you as a part time GP, Dr. Kate would have seen her fair share of ASD kids, and known where they were headed if Maddie was in fact ASD or developmentally delayed. I don't think they were willing to do what it takes to get Maddie the help she needed to halfway function (or maybe never) in society.


Always Interesting, Interested. Much to think about.

[CaliKid]

No, they don't. They do prefer that Catholics are buried, but cremation is now okay, too. Any cemetery is ok if you are Catholic. I know many Catholics who are buried ion our city cemetery here and it's just a city cemetery and multi-denominational.

Sorry it took so long to get back.

I think a cemetary is hallowed ground. What I would consider non-hallowed ground would be to bury someone in the woods, a cave or out in the open under rocks. That's why I was asking- would good Catholics ever feel comfortable leaving a family member just dumped somewhere?

[CaliKid]

I think we really need to call in the thoughts about the church yard. Cali - this is really your idea, do you want to call it in? I will call it in if I can't get another taker. I prefer not to be the one because I am hard of hearing and chances are they will not speak English and I will never be able to communicate with them.

Do you think PLE or even the British police have an email address I could write to? Is it on findmadeleine? I'll go look!

Sorry for dropping the ball, Salem. Good for you for mailing. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

[philamena]

I'm not ready to crucify these parents until it's proven that Madeliene is indeed dead.
.......
I'm going to sit and wait until it's proven this child really is dead.


Ditto!

[Brefie]

Sorry it took so long to get back.

I think a cemetary is hallowed ground. What I would consider non-hallowed ground would be to bury someone in the woods, a cave or out in the open under rocks. That's why I was asking- would good Catholics ever feel comfortable leaving a family member just dumped somewhere?

Good Catholics - or 'good anyone' would not murder their daughter. I think it's safe to assume that for most murderers, usual religious procedure for the passed is out the window.

[Jeana (DP)]

Good Catholics - or 'good anyone' would not murder their daughter. I think it's safe to assume that for most murderers, usual religious procedure for the passed is out the window.

Ain't that the truth!

[Salem]

Good Catholics - or 'good anyone' would not murder their daughter. I think it's safe to assume that for most murderers, usual religious procedure for the passed is out the window.

Normally I would agree with this statement. However if the death was an accident and the parents were stunned and shocked at what happened, I think they would revert back to some level of caring about Maddie. I would however concede that any "level of caring" would be contaminated with their perceived need to cover their a$$e$$.

The saddest thing about this situation, if it is true that the McCanns harmed their daughter, is that they would have fared so much better in the legal system, the media, and with the world at large if they would have admitted what happened and how it happened.

Probably they would have been looking at manslaughter charges. Now, I think they are looking at manslaughter (and possibly murder), interference with justice, interference with a criminal investigation, hiding the body, and on a very GRAND scale, fraud.

They should have stepped forward and stopped the media circus immediately.......

My opinions only,

Salem

[Brefie]

Normally I would agree with this statement. However if the death was an accident and the parents were stunned and shocked at what happened, I think they would revert back to some level of caring about Maddie. I would however concede that any "level of caring" would be contaminated with their perceived need to cover their a$$e$$.

The saddest thing about this situation, if it is true that the McCanns harmed their daughter, is that they would have fared so much better in the legal system, the media, and with the world at large if they would have admitted what happened and how it happened.

Probably they would have been looking at manslaughter charges. Now, I think they are looking at manslaughter (and possibly murder), interference with justice, interference with a criminal investigation, hiding the body, and on a very GRAND scale, fraud.

They should have stepped forward and stopped the media circus immediately.......

My opinions only,

Salem

I hear ya......big old 'IFs' though. I would agree that some religion MAY come into it, if they killed her by accident. They would probably want what they think is 'right' and 'good' by God for their daughter.

I don't believe they did, just yet. I do disagree to much of what is written here just because I think much of what we are going on is false information. BUT, like I said on another thread, if they are proved to be guilty, I will be screaming from a height for the most harsh of punishment, least of all because they campaigned for sympathy from silly folks such as myself.

It all remains to be seen.

[christine2448]

bumpidy bump bump

[txsvicki]

I say if the McCann's did it, then they aren't expecting a body to be found any time soon since they are blogging and calling attention to themselves. I can't imagine why they would have been so stupid as to leave lots of hair in a rental car though.

[Salem]

I am very interested in the "proposed" searches of Fatima (I think that is right) that I have been reading about. Sorry I didn't grab a link. It is being reported that the PLE thinks the McCanns put a lot of miles on the rental car and that they may have taken the car on a 500 mile "return" trip to the very holy place of Fatima. I'm not sure, but Fatima might be in Spain. Apparently the McCanns had been there before - after Maddie went missing, but before they rented the car. The PLE thinks they went back after they rented the car and placed Maddie there somewhere.

I'm ready for next week to happen so that maybe they will find Maddie!

Salem

[lovebites]

This is where my theory comes in. I think it was a premeditated murder. Knowing that Dr. K was around "dead people" on a regular basis, (According to her statement), she probably could get her hands on formaldehyde, or other type of embalming fluid. I think they killed her, then carefully bled her out, (maybe in the bath tub) and filled those syringes with embalming fluid, and that's how they kept her body from rapidly decomposing. An embalmed body can last for weeks. Heck, they had the last Pope's body displayed for almost a month before they finally buried, (crypt) him.

And just Why would they have wanted to kill her deliberately? For what purpose? Makes no sense.

[CaliKid]

I am very interested in the "proposed" searches of Fatima (I think that is right) that I have been reading about. Sorry I didn't grab a link. It is being reported that the PLE thinks the McCanns put a lot of miles on the rental car and that they may have taken the car on a 500 mile "return" trip to the very holy place of Fatima. I'm not sure, but Fatima might be in Spain. Apparently the McCanns had been there before - after Maddie went missing, but before they rented the car. The PLE thinks they went back after they rented the car and placed Maddie there somewhere.

I'm ready for next week to happen so that maybe they will find Maddie!

Salem

The McCanns did go to Fatima three weeks after Madeleine went missing to pray for her return.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=456974&in_page_id=1770

[narlacat]

I say if the McCann's did it, then they aren't expecting a body to be found any time soon since they are blogging and calling attention to themselves. I can't imagine why they would have been so stupid as to leave lots of hair in a rental car though.

Maybe because they didn't- lol- maybe that is just heresay.

[narlacat]

And just Why would they have wanted to kill her deliberately? For what purpose? Makes no sense.

Making sense is not something that is abundant on this forum!
The Mc's left their kids by themselves so they must have killed one of them as well- it's ridiculous I know :doh:
Not to mention no evidence against them..

[poco]

Making sense is not something that is abundant on this forum!
The Mc's left their kids by themselves so they must have killed one of them as well- it's ridiculous I know :doh:
Not to mention no evidence against them..

It may not make sense to you or some other people, but it's called brainstorming.....

[poco]

More like witch hunting.


Nah, it's called Websleuths - designed to generate a large number of ideas for the solution to a problem. Some of us who have posted have probably hit very close to what actually happened. I don't know whether the McCann's are involved or not; in fact, I am still on the fence, probably leaning more towards they are involved, but still not convinced as there hasn't been enough concrete evidence to point me completely in that direction.

It sounds as you believe in their innocence. What are you thoughts about what happened that night?

[narlacat]

Nah, it's called Websleuths - designed to generate a large number of ideas for the solution to a problem. Some of us who have posted have probably hit very close to what actually happened. I don't know whether the McCann's are involved or not; in fact, I am still on the fence, probably leaning more towards they are involved, but still not convinced as there hasn't been enough concrete evidence to point me completely in that direction.

It sounds as you believe in their innocence. What are you thoughts about what happened that night?
I deleted my post- no use arguing- (plus in the mean time I saw a mod saying about arguing soooo...)

I really think it's a witch hunt... the whole case... not just TWS..

I'm not sure what happened- maybe Maddie woke up wandered off, someone took her... maybe someone ran over her, panicked...I dunno, I just don't think it's that plausible that the parents killed her and somehow got rid of her body-
I'm on the fence- leaning towards them being innocent.

[Shazza]

I deleted my post- no use arguing- (plus in the mean time I saw a mod saying about arguing soooo...)

I really think it's a witch hunt... the whole case... not just TWS..

I'm not sure what happened- maybe Maddie woke up wandered off, someone took her... maybe someone ran over her, panicked...I dunno, I just don't think it's that plausible that the parents killed her and somehow got rid of her body-
I'm on the fence- leaning towards them being innocent.

Noone is arguing they are just asking your opinion as all opinions are welcomed in this forum.

[poco]

Noone is arguing they are just asking your opinion as all opinions are welcomed in this forum.

Whatever - I just hope they find her - alive would be GREAT, but if she is dead (which I tend to lean towards), I hope they find her poor little body!!!

[narlacat]

Noone is arguing they are just asking your opinion as all opinions are welcomed in this forum.

Okay.

Was also going to say- I did have a chuckle when I saw someone calling Cuddle Cat- Creepy Cat though...must have been a KDI or GDI or a K&GDI.......:p

[Shazza]

Whatever - I just hope they find her - alive would be GREAT, but if she is dead (which I tend to lean towards), I hope they find her poor little body!!!
At least she could be laid to rest. I too am leaning towards her death Poco. Prayers that she is in the arms of god.

[christine2448]

And just Why would they have wanted to kill her deliberately? For what purpose? Makes no sense.

Some theories I have heard that could possibly fit the deliberate scenario would be if Maddie was a really big problem, causing problems to the family 'unit', if the parents were the narcissists (sp?) some are saying they are, yada yada, some say the perfect family didn't include Maddie, just mum dad and twins. You'd have to look around the threads, this theory has been mentioned a few times.

Another deliberate reason would be $$...not sure if that would be motive at this point. Could be a little of both.

I don't think either of the above is what happened.

But, until we know what has happened, anything is open right now.

[SleuthMom]

Narlacat:

I'm not sure what happened- maybe Maddie woke up wandered off, someone took her... maybe someone ran over her, panicked...I dunno, I just don't think it's that plausible that the parents killed her and somehow got rid of her body-

So according to you, she could have wandered off, a kidnapper took her, someone ran over her BUT the possibility of her parents killing her is not there? Hmmm...interesting. I would have assume since you do not have facts about any of those possibilities you would add the theory of the parents on the list (which you said there is no evidence either) So how come you add those possibilities but not the one of the parents? After all,they were made official suspects.

[gord]

I honestly believe that if Madeline was killed in the appartment - the body would have been found by now - the Mccaans would have made a mistake somewhere along the line in the aftermath

I still think that Maddy was taken out of the resort almost immediatley - and by the time the police got down to doing something she was miles away

for me the abduction theory still makes the most sense

[AfterMidnight]

Whatever became of the empty apartment next door. I believe there were some traces of Maddie found in there. Has there been any follow up?

[CaliKid]

There has been speculation that the PJ want to dig around the PDL church for Madeleine, particularly a construction project that has been ongoing since May.

The following link is to a blog written by a man named Mike Hitchen. We know him as Aussie Mike, and he has been writing about Madeleine since way back when she first went missing.

The link connects to Mike's latest blog in which a Portuguese poster named Isabel took some pictures of the PDL church from all sides. I'm just providing the pictures for your own curiosity and comments.

http://ionglobaltrends.blogspot.com/2007/09/photographs-of-church-in-praia-da-luz.html

[englishleigh]

There has been speculation that the PJ want to dig around the PDL church for Madeleine, particularly a construction project that has been ongoing since May.

The following link is to a blog written by a man named Mike Hitchen. We know him as Aussie Mike, and he has been writing about Madeleine since way back when she first went missing.

The link connects to Mike's latest blog in which a Portuguese poster named Isabel took some pictures of the PDL church from all sides. I'm just providing the pictures for your own curiosity and comments.

http://ionglobaltrends.blogspot.com/2007/09/photographs-of-church-in-praia-da-luz.html



Read down into the blog comments. Someone posted something about a large sports bag washing ashore Friday morning in Praia de Luz....and that the Portuguese press acting strangely??? Supposedly it was posted on the Mirror forums. Colomom?

[CaliKid]

There has been absolutely nothing in the media about any sort of black bag. So either there was no bag, it has nothing to do with Madeleine or it might and it's being kept a secret (checking DNA evidence on it).

[englishleigh]

There has been absolutely nothing in the media about any sort of black bag. So either there was no bag, it has nothing to do with Madeleine or it might and it's being kept a secret (checking DNA evidence on it).

That's what I thought, it was just rumor. Was just wondering if anyone else had heard this b/c it was interesting, if true.

[Texana]

Making sense is not something that is abundant on this forum!
The Mc's left their kids by themselves so they must have killed one of them as well- it's ridiculous I know :doh:
Not to mention no evidence against them..

No, not that.

The McCanns left their children alone that evening, showing a definite disregard for their well-being, and a willingness to put their personal goals or needs ahead of their children.

There are dozens of foreseeable accidents that can happen to children that age left alone--with or without an unlocked door.

If they could put their needs ahead of a living child, they most certainly could put their needs ahead of one that was dead.

Again, I don't think the McCanns deliberately killed their child. As I see it, three possibilities:

1) Maddie was abducted by a kidnapper who deliberately chose her over easier targets, and within a very small window of time
2) Maddie wandered off via an unlocked door, and then was either abducted (a stretch) or injured and hidden/buried somehow
3) Maddie suffered some kind of injury resulting in death, including something related to a medicinal dose, and rather than lose their licenses/livelihood and remaining children, and knowing they are well-meaning and caring parents overall, her parents chose to cover up her death.

Occam's Razor says the most likely/simplest explanation works. Which one of these is the most likely then?

I don't want to believe the parents did #3, but I will point out that most of their behavior after the fact backs up #3.

[Shazza]

No, not that.

The McCanns left their children alone that evening, showing a definite disregard for their well-being, and a willingness to put their personal goals or needs ahead of their children.

There are dozens of foreseeable accidents that can happen to children that age left alone--with or without an unlocked door.

If they could put their needs ahead of a living child, they most certainly could put their needs ahead of one that was dead.

Again, I don't think the McCanns deliberately killed their child. As I see it, three possibilities:

1) Maddie was abducted by a kidnapper who deliberately chose her over easier targets, and within a very small window of time
2) Maddie wandered off via an unlocked door, and then was either abducted (a stretch) or injured and hidden/buried somehow
3) Maddie suffered some kind of injury resulting in death, including something related to a medicinal dose, and rather than lose their licenses/livelihood and remaining children, and knowing they are well-meaning and caring parents overall, her parents chose to cover up her death.

Occam's Razor says the most likely/simplest explanation works. Which one of these is the most likely then?

I don't want to believe the parents did #3, but I will point out that most of their behavior after the fact backs up #3.

Wish I could take the credit for this post, well said Texana,:clap: it is exactly how I feel. I wish I didnt, as I always give the benefit of doubt, but in this case, there have been to many lies and cover ups which makes me think the McCanns are involved.

[Jeana (DP)]

Making sense is not something that is abundant on this forum!
The Mc's left their kids by themselves so they must have killed one of them as well- it's ridiculous I know :doh:
Not to mention no evidence against them..

Excuse me. Do we have to go over this YET AGAIN???????

IF you have any sort of problem with the members of this forum talking about, speculating about or forming opinions about anything having to do with this or any other case, PLEASE STOP READING it. You will not make any other statements about the members on this forum whether you believe they make sense or not. I honestly don't want to have to have this discussion with you again.:doh: :banghead:

[CaliKid]

No, not that.

The McCanns left their children alone that evening, showing a definite disregard for their well-being, and a willingness to put their personal goals or needs ahead of their children.

There are dozens of foreseeable accidents that can happen to children that age left alone--with or without an unlocked door.

If they could put their needs ahead of a living child, they most certainly could put their needs ahead of one that was dead.

Again, I don't think the McCanns deliberately killed their child. As I see it, three possibilities:

1) Maddie was abducted by a kidnapper who deliberately chose her over easier targets, and within a very small window of time
2) Maddie wandered off via an unlocked door, and then was either abducted (a stretch) or injured and hidden/buried somehow
3) Maddie suffered some kind of injury resulting in death, including something related to a medicinal dose, and rather than lose their licenses/livelihood and remaining children, and knowing they are well-meaning and caring parents overall, her parents chose to cover up her death.

Occam's Razor says the most likely/simplest explanation works. Which one of these is the most likely then?

I don't want to believe the parents did #3, but I will point out that most of their behavior after the fact backs up #3.

Apart from the strange behavior on the part of the parents leading my away from #1, your explanation is exactly why I don't believe it was an abduction. Why take Madeleine when a younger, lighter, easier-to-carry child was closer to the door (not sleeping between two other children)? Someone wanting to kidnap a child would most likely grab and run, going for the easiest to get.

[southcitymom]

I honestly believe that if Madeline was killed in the appartment - the body would have been found by now - the Mccaans would have made a mistake somewhere along the line in the aftermath

I still think that Maddy was taken out of the resort almost immediatley - and by the time the police got down to doing something she was miles away

for me the abduction theory still makes the most sense

These are my thoughts as well. For now at least.

[AfterMidnight]

Apart from the strange behavior on the part of the parents leading my away from #1, your explanation is exactly why I don't believe it was an abduction. Why take Madeleine when a younger, lighter, easier-to-carry child was closer to the door (not sleeping between two other children)? Someone wanting to kidnap a child would most likely grab and run, going for the easiest to get.

Why take Madeleine? Perhaps Madeleine is the beautiful child that was being stalked. The others were a younger boy and his twin sister. Madeleine was just the right age IMO.

[SleuthMom]

I don't think she was abducted but the possibility is there, specially if someone has been watching the idiotic behavior of the parents of leaving those three toddlers by themselves for a whole week while they dined with friends. It was like an open invitation. :rolleyes:

Since the timeline given by the parents does not make any sense, and their behavior after the "abduction" is so odd in so many aspects, I personally do not think she was sedated but died as a consequence of one of the parents losing their temper.

[Rino]

I deleted my post- no use arguing- (plus in the mean time I saw a mod saying about arguing soooo...)

I really think it's a witch hunt... the whole case... not just TWS..

I'm not sure what happened- maybe Maddie woke up wandered off, someone took her... maybe someone ran over her, panicked...I dunno, I just don't think it's that plausible that the parents killed her and somehow got rid of her body-
I'm on the fence- leaning towards them being innocent.

Some one ran over her?!?! Yeah, thats a real possability. A hit and run in a crowded resort with no tell tell signs while she was in bed for the night, with the adults making bed checks constantly is more likely than the parents playing a role in her disappearance.....h'okay. Remember MK said in no uncertain terms there is no way Maddie walked out on her own. How about alien abduction :D


You're on the fence leaning toward innocent but those of us leaning towards guilty are on a witch hunt??
Since when is does trying to find the killer, or abductor of a child make anyone bad?

Liking someone is not an alabi.

[AfterMidnight]

How about alien abduction :D

Actually, there may be an element of the mystical here. A while back on one thread or another I said Madeleine had an unearthly beauty. I believe that may be one reason someone possibly wanted her.

I'm still solidly on the fence watching the circus.

[AfterMidnight]

OOPS! I meant media circus.

[ceeaura]

Actually, there may be an element of the mystical here. A while back on one thread or another I said Madeleine had an unearthly beauty. I believe that may be one reason someone possibly wanted her.

I'm still solidly on the fence watching the circus.


Circus is what it sure has become.Which is sickening and sad.I don't think we are ever going to find out what happened to Madeleine.:(

[Rino]

Circus is what it sure has become.Which is sickening and sad.I don't think we are ever going to find out what happened to Madeleine.:(
I fear we will not find out either, because of the media circus I believe the McCanns very cleverly orchestrated.

[SleuthMom]

I fear we will not find out either, because of the media circus I believe the McCanns very cleverly orchestrated.

You're right Rino.

[BethInAK]

Actually, there may be an element of the mystical here. A while back on one thread or another I said Madeleine had an unearthly beauty. I believe that may be one reason someone possibly wanted her.




To me, she looks like a cute four year old.

[Rino]

Actually, there may be an element of the mystical here. A while back on one thread or another I said Madeleine had an unearthly beauty. I believe that may be one reason someone possibly wanted her.

I'm still solidly on the fence watching the circus.
LOL...you're good.

You claim she had unearthly beauty,and now can defend alien abduction because its mystical. You missed your calling :D

[Texana]

Circus is what it sure has become.Which is sickening and sad.I don't think we are ever going to find out what happened to Madeleine.:(

When the test results are finally made public, if the DNA sample is a reasonably close match to Maddie's--particularly if her hair is there, as that will be easy to test no matter how many months have passed--and it contains decomposition chemicals, then sadly, we will at least know for certain what happened to Madeleine. What we may never know is why or how.

And her parents, if they don't already know it, they have enough chemistry and biology backgrounds to understand that as well.

[ceeaura]

I have been having this nagging thought in the back of my head and I could not quite figure out what it was.Well I just had a :doh: moment.

It looks in pictures as if Madeleine has had her hair cut at a salon.

I have hair from each of my 3 children from their first hair cut tied in a ribbon and it is placed in their baby book.

I wonder if Kate did that.If she did that would be a huge help in the DNA.

I don't think I have ever met anyone who did not save hair from babys first cut.

[Texana]

To me, she looks like a cute four year old.

Me, too. It's such a precious age.

[Seeker]

No, not that.

The McCanns left their children alone that evening, showing a definite disregard for their well-being, and a willingness to put their personal goals or needs ahead of their children. I read somewhere that this happens a lot. It's not just people on holiday/vacation either. It happens here in the states all the time. We just never hear about it until/if something happens.

There are dozens of foreseeable accidents that can happen to children that age left alone--with or without an unlocked door.
Yes, but these same accidents can happen with parent in the next room too.

If they could put their needs ahead of a living child, they most certainly could put their needs ahead of one that was dead. I don't think it was their "needs" so much as it was probably rather normal for them and the other adults they were with. Jayelles at FFJ said they did better by checking on their kids than the door listeners.

Again, I don't think the McCanns deliberately killed their child. As I see it, three possibilities:

1) Maddie was abducted by a kidnapper who deliberately chose her over easier targets, and within a very small window of time For me this is the most likely option.

2) Maddie wandered off via an unlocked door, and then was either abducted (a stretch) or injured and hidden/buried somehow
3) Maddie suffered some kind of injury resulting in death, including something related to a medicinal dose, and rather than lose their licenses/livelihood and remaining children, and knowing they are well-meaning and caring parents overall, her parents chose to cover up her death.

Occam's Razor says the most likely/simplest explanation works. Which one of these is the most likely then?

I don't want to believe the parents did #3, but I will point out that most of their behavior after the fact backs up #3.

[pinto]

I read somewhere that this happens a lot. It's not just people on holiday/vacation either. It happens here in the states all the time. We just never hear about it until/if something happens.


....Yes, but these same accidents can happen with parent in the next room too.

And kids can be taken from their beds, too, while the parents are home. Isn't that how it happened with Smart and Van Dam?

Of course it makes it less likely, but it is possible. If the parents were at the apartment next door, same thing. Would we be all over them if they were in the same building, but not the same unit? Where is the line?

Now, this doesn't mean I don't think going 75 yd away is irresponsible, because that is too far for me. But right now, I'm sitting in my family room. If someone comes in the front door, I can't hear it unless the dog barks. The stairs are by the front door, and you could run up, swipe my child, and I'd never know.

So I'm not going to blame a kidnapping, if that's what happened, solely on the distance. If you leave your car in the driveway with its engine on to heat it up in the cold winter, is it a risk? Yes, a small one. But it still takes a criminal to steal it.

[angelmom]

And kids can be taken from their beds, too, while the parents are home. Isn't that how it happened with Smart and Van Dam?

Of course it makes it less likely, but it is possible. If the parents were at the apartment next door, same thing. Would we be all over them if they were in the same building, but not the same unit? Where is the line?

Now, this doesn't mean I don't think going 75 yd away is irresponsible, because that is too far for me. But right now, I'm sitting in my family room. If someone comes in the front door, I can't hear it unless the dog barks. The stairs are by the front door, and you could run up, swipe my child, and I'd never know.

So I'm not going to blame a kidnapping, if that's what happened, solely on the distance. If you leave your car in the driveway with its engine on to heat it up in the cold winter, is it a risk? Yes, a small one. But it still takes a criminal to steal it.

Please go lock your front door.

[christine2448]

The stairs are by the front door, and you could run up, swipe my child, and I'd never know.




:silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:


Oh, good nite my poster friends, I am crashin'! My children are in bed (alarmed windows) and all doors are locked (also alarmed and ON).....WS has really changed the way I 'walk' in this world. We should not be paranoid, but we should be smart, IMO, FWIW.

[pinto]

Please go lock your front door.

Well, yes, it's all hypothetical (my kids are too old to steal, really), but ... it's worth remembering. I live in a really really safe neighborhood, statistically speaking. Sometimes I don't lock my door until I go upstairs to bed, that is true.

I know, "you can't be too safe," but when you feel safe, sometimes you forget. Hopefully it doesn't mean that I'mautomatically a suspect if something bad happens ... maybe it's even the opposite? My innocent mind doesn't think about criminal activity all the time, so I let my guard down.

In any case, I agree with the posters who caution to not let the neglect factor weigh too much toward the suspicion of the McCanns UNTIL there is some better evidence against them. Everything is hearsay, in the biggest way, right now.

[pinto]

:silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:


Oh, good nite my poster friends, I am crashin'! My children are in bed (alarmed windows) and all doors are locked (also alarmed and ON).....WS has really changed the way I 'walk' in this world. We should not be paranoid, but we should be smart, IMO, FWIW.

Sure, but I think WS probably makes us feel that these things are waaaaay more likely to happen than they are. Your kids are in far greater danger (like, 100 times more likely to die) when buckled into their car seats than mine are when they are in bed with all the windows and doors unlocked.

But we are numbed to car accidents, whereas child stealing is sensationalized.

(And no, I don't leave my doors and windows open at night; and I'm not criticizing your driving ;) -- just looking for some perspective.)

[AfterMidnight]

Sure, but I think WS probably makes us feel that these things are waaaaay more likely to happen than they are. Your kids are in far greater danger (like, 100 times more likely to die) when buckled into their car seats than mine are when they are in bed with all the windows and doors unlocked.

But we are numbed to car accidents, whereas child stealing is sensationalized.

(And no, I don't leave my doors and windows open at night; and I'm not criticizing your driving ;) -- just looking for some perspective.)

I agree with that, but only to a point. I grew up in SmallTown, USA, during the Happy Days era of the 50's. I call myself AfterMidnight because I often walked alone after midnight. I learned years later, after my cousing was murdered by person(s) unknown, there were 2 or 3 serial killers roaming our neck of the woods.

So, ya see, I believe these things are way more likely to happen than most of us can even comprehend, especially these days.

I believe there's a lot more going on in this case than meets the eye. The simple answer may usually be the right one - but not always. There are cases so weird and convulted, no one could ever make it up and be believed.

[philamena]

I agree with that, but only to a point. I grew up in SmallTown, USA, during the Happy Days era of the 50's. I call myself AfterMidnight because I often walked alone after midnight. I learned years later, after my cousing was murdered by person(s) unknown, there were 2 or 3 serial killers roaming our neck of the woods.

So, ya see, I believe these things are way more likely to happen than most of us can even comprehend, especially these days.

I believe there's a lot more going on in this case than meets the eye. The simple answer may usually be the right one - but not always. There are cases so weird and convulted, no one could ever make it up and be believed.

My deepest sympathies on your loss. And agree with you. We live in a different era.....I too was raised in the late 50's, early 60's and today's world is different and filled with evil. I agree with you about alot going on in the McCann case.
Good post :clap:

[SleuthMom]

I am trying to respectfully understand the reasoning of some posters. If no matter what you do (leave the door locked or unlocked, leave your kids alone or supervised, etc etc etc) a perp can break in and take your child ....then why do we even bother with alarms, locks in our doors, babysitters and alarms in our cars, baby monitors, etc??? :confused:

Guys, I sincerely think we need to use a little common sense here. I mean, I can be walking down the road now and a car can run to me and kill me...does it mean I am going to purposely walk in the middle of the road to wait for that car to kill me??? No, unless I am an idiot.

This exact same reasoning applies here. Just because a perp can break in anyways and take your child no matter what you do ( unless you are an idiot or don't care at all about your kids) you are NOT going to leave the doors open and three tots under 3 by themselves in a foreign country!!!!!!!! because....if "happens, will happen anyways with or without supervision"

I do not think ANY of us reason like this, now do we? :rolleyes:

[Jeana (DP)]

I am trying to respectfully understand the reasoning of some posters. If no matter what you do (leave the door locked or unlocked, leave your kids alone or supervised, etc etc etc) a perp can break in and take your child ....then why do we even bother with alarms, locks in our doors, babysitters and alarms in our cars, baby monitors, etc??? :confused:

Guys, I sincerely think we need to use a little common sense here. I mean, I can be walking down the road now and a car can run to me and kill me...does it mean I am going to purposely walk in the middle of the road to wait for that car to kill me??? No, unless I am an idiot.

This exact same reasoning applies here. Just because a perp can break in anyways and take your child no matter what you do ( unless you are an idiot or don't care at all about your kids) you are NOT going to leave the doors open and three tots under 3 by themselves in a foreign country!!!!!!!! because....if "happens, will happen anyways with or without supervision"

I do not think ANY of us reason like this, now do we? :rolleyes:

Well as parents we need to do everything within our powers to protect our children. Unfortunately, there are some things that are out of our control. Until recently, I had a hard time believing that a perp would go into someone else's home and remove a child. We now know that it happens. However, in this case, that doesn't explain the "alleged" evidence that points to Mrs. McCann. We all know that unless they can rule her out as a suspect, they've got to follow the trail that unfortunately led to her.

[SleuthMom]

Jeana:

]Well as parents we need to do everything within our powers to protect our children.

Exactly!

Unfortunately, there are some things that are out of our control. Until recently, I had a hard time believing that a perp would go into someone else's home and remove a child. We now know that it happens.

Yes and that's why as parents we should try our best to protect our kids but leaving three tots by themselves while you go party is beyond me. To be honest with you, I do not buy for a second they thought it was "Safe". I mean, even the most uneducated person KNOWS is not safe, how come two doctors would think it was? To me, they just simply (as hard as it may sound) did not care, they just took the risk because they wanted to enjoy themselves.

However, in this case, that doesn't explain the "alleged" evidence that points to Mrs. McCann. We all know that unless they can rule her out as a suspect, they've got to follow the trail that unfortunately led to her.

Correct, the question is now how much evidence the police REALLY has? I want to believe IF they have STRONG evidence, they would have been back to Portugal by now, no?

[Jeana (DP)]

Correct, the question is now how much evidence the police REALLY has? I want to believe IF they have STRONG evidence, they would have been back to Portugal by now, no?



No, not necessarily. We're used to how they do things here in the United States. Portugal law is much different. Here, they would have ruled out the parents first. They did not do that. Here, they would have obtained a search warrant for the property and any DNA samples needed from the parents. They did not do that. So, while we're hearing rumors about this and that, we don't actually KNOW anything for a fact. The truth of the matter is that we don't know the truth about anything. So far, all we have are rumors and speculation.

[pinto]

I am trying to respectfully understand the reasoning of some posters. If no matter what you do (leave the door locked or unlocked, leave your kids alone or supervised, etc etc etc) a perp can break in and take your child ....then why do we even bother with alarms, locks in our doors, babysitters and alarms in our cars, baby monitors, etc??? :confused:

Guys, I sincerely think we need to use a little common sense here. I mean, I can be walking down the road now and a car can run to me and kill me...does it mean I am going to purposely walk in the middle of the road to wait for that car to kill me??? No, unless I am an idiot.

This exact same reasoning applies here. Just because a perp can break in anyways and take your child no matter what you do ( unless you are an idiot or don't care at all about your kids) you are NOT going to leave the doors open and three tots under 3 by themselves in a foreign country!!!!!!!! because....if "happens, will happen anyways with or without supervision"

I do not think ANY of us reason like this, now do we? :rolleyes:

No, and I don't think anyone actually said that, did they? I said it is much less likely that a child is taken from a supervised house, but that it isn't impossible. We've seen it before.

The reasoning is that there is a very black-and-white vibe going on re the parents' actions. I think it should be a little more gray. Others have said the same. This kind of thing happens all the time, but you don't hear about it unless something bad happens. Usually nothing bad happens.

It's just the need to separate the "they were unlucky" from "they messed up" from "they had it coming" from "they must be murderers" memes.

[Rino]

It's just the need to separate the "they were unlucky" from "they messed up" from "they had it coming" from "they must be murderers" memes.
Did anyone ever say they had it coming, ever? Or they must (may is the proper term here) be murderers based on them leaving their children unattended as a sole reason?

[SleuthMom]

Pinto:

The reasoning is that there is a very black-and-white vibe going on re the parents' actions. I think it should be a little more gray.

Not sure if I agree with this. We are not dealing with two parents whose child is missing. We are dealing with two parents who are also official suspects in their daughter's disappearance.

[Jeana (DP)]

Did anyone ever say they had it coming, ever? Or they must (may is the proper term here) be murderers based on them leaving their children unattended as a sole reason?

I don't remember having seen that.

[april4sky]

No, not necessarily. We're used to how they do things here in the United States. Portugal law is much different. Here, they would have ruled out the parents first. They did not do that. Here, they would have obtained a search warrant for the property and any DNA samples needed from the parents. They did not do that. So, while we're hearing rumors about this and that, we don't actually KNOW anything for a fact. The truth of the matter is that we don't know the truth about anything. So far, all we have are rumors and speculation.

That says it all for me. In a nutshell!!!

[BethInAK]

I am trying to respectfully understand the reasoning of some posters. If no matter what you do (leave the door locked or unlocked, leave your kids alone or supervised, etc etc etc) a perp can break in and take your child ....then why do we even bother with alarms, locks in our doors, babysitters and alarms in our cars, baby monitors, etc??? :confused:

Why bother supervising them at all?
I mean, if kids can get injured even if you watch them and childproof your house, and if kids can get kidnapped even if you lock your front door and stay in the next room, then whats the point right?

In fact, tomorrow, when I come to work I'll just leave 27 month old Monk at home instead of dropping him off at school, since conceivably he could get injured at school, right?

[Salem]

Oh Beth - don't do that!:crazy:

We watch them so we have every opportunity to scare that kidnapper away or stop the bleeding, or blow air into their little lungs until help arrives.

We watch them so that we are there to pass out the encouragement that little ones need everytime they try to do something new and to pass out the love whenever they feel they need it and to comfort them whenever they get their feelings hurt, or their toes stepped on. :blowkiss:

We watch them to protect them to the best of our abilities no matter what they face during the day or night.

I could say so much more, but then I would really be parent bashing the McCanns and any other parents who might think it is okay not to be there to protect their children when the need arises:banghead: , so I will stop here.

Salem

[Shazza]

Oh Beth - don't do that!:crazy:

We watch them so we have every opportunity to scare that kidnapper away or stop the bleeding, or blow air into their little lungs until help arrives.

We watch them so that we are there to pass out the encouragement that little ones need everytime they try to do something new and to pass out the love whenever they feel they need it and to comfort them whenever they get their feelings hurt, or their toes stepped on. :blowkiss:

We watch them to protect them to the best of our abilities no matter what they face during the day or night.

I could say so much more, but then I would really be parent bashing the McCanns and any other parents who might think it is okay not to be there to protect their children when the need arises:banghead: , so I will stop here.

Salem
That brought tears to my eyes Salem, I think all of the parents here would agree with you.

[pinto]

Did anyone ever say they had it coming, ever? Or they must (may is the proper term here) be murderers based on them leaving their children unattended as a sole reason?

I called it a meme, not a quotation.

And yes, there is definitely the sense that they had it coming ... you leave your kids alone, and you deserve what you get. There are posts about them NOT being victims, because of their actions. And the posters who criticize them the most for leaving the kids alone are generally the posters who tend to believe they are the killers, as well.

Now, statistically speaking, they ARE more likely to have something to do with it than not. But that's all I'm willing to say at this point ....

[Rino]

I called it a meme, not a quotation.

And yes, there is definitely the sense that they had it coming ... you leave your kids alone, and you deserve what you get.
I couln't disagree more.

There is a huge difference between addressing the neglegent behavior on their part and claiming Maddie deserved to be harmed for it. Something horrible has happend to MADDIE, no one had ever claimed she deserved to be harmed simply because her parnets put her in that position. It is offensive that you would make such an accusation.

There are posts about them NOT being victims, because of their actions. And the posters who criticize them the most for leaving the kids alone are generally the posters who tend to believe they are the killers, as well.
Since many believe the victim here is Maddie has little or nothing to do with the fact that they were neglegent. It would appear that many times prior to this their poor choices did not have a tragic outcome.

When an unsupervised child is harmed, I do not accept that somehow the careless adult is too a victim. How can you be a victim of your own bad decisions when someone else had paid the price, most likely in this case with her life? That aside, Maddie is the victim, they are the victims parents, jmo.

Believing they are guilty of more then bad parenting is harder than blindly pretending they are innocent becuase it's what you want to be true. You try to find reasons to defend the McCanns while I try to find what happened to Maddie - I don't care who did it, you care that they did not do it.

Now, statistically speaking, they ARE more likely to have something to do with it than not. But that's all I'm willing to say at this point ....
No, you've accused others of being on a witch-hunt and put words in our mouths.

[Jeana (DP)]

I couln't disagree more.

There is a huge difference between addressing the neglegent behavior on their part and claiming Maddie deserved to be harmed for it. Something horrible has happend to MADDIE, no one had ever claimed she deserved to be harmed simply because her parnets put her in that position. It is offensive that you would make such an accusation.


I believe the poster insinuated that the "parents" had something coming to them for their negligent behavior, NOT Maddy.

[SleuthMom]

I couln't disagree more.

There is a huge difference between addressing the neglegent behavior on their part and claiming Maddie deserved to be harmed for it. Something horrible has happend to MADDIE, no one had ever claimed she deserved to be harmed simply because her parnets put her in that position. It is offensive that you would make such an accusation.

Since many believe the victim here is Maddie has little or nothing to do with the fact that they were neglegent. It would appear that many times prior to this their poor choices did not have a tragic outcome.

When an unsupervised child is harmed, I do not accept that somehow the careless adult is too a victim. How can you be a victim of your own bad decisions when someone else had paid the price, most likely in this case with her life? That aside, Maddie is the victim, they are the victims parents, jmo.

Believing they are guilty of more then bad parenting is harder than blindly pretending they are innocent becuase it's what you want to be true. You try to find reasons to defend the McCanns while I try to find what happened to Maddie - I don't care who did it, you care that they did not do it.

No, you've accused others of being on a witch-hunt and put words in our mouths.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Rino]

I believe the poster insinuated that the "parents" had something coming to them for their negligent behavior, NOT Maddy.
Sure, but the connection is flawed.

Having their kids taken by social services or being brought up on charges is something coming to them.

Having Maddie harmed is something totally different and separate. Tying to make the connection, imo, is deliberately offensive.

[SewingDeb]

I am trying to respectfully understand the reasoning of some posters. If no matter what you do (leave the door locked or unlocked, leave your kids alone or supervised, etc etc etc) a perp can break in and take your child ....then why do we even bother with alarms, locks in our doors, babysitters and alarms in our cars, baby monitors, etc??? :confused:

Guys, I sincerely think we need to use a little common sense here. I mean, I can be walking down the road now and a car can run to me and kill me...does it mean I am going to purposely walk in the middle of the road to wait for that car to kill me??? No, unless I am an idiot.

This exact same reasoning applies here. Just because a perp can break in anyways and take your child no matter what you do ( unless you are an idiot or don't care at all about your kids) you are NOT going to leave the doors open and three tots under 3 by themselves in a foreign country!!!!!!!! because....if "happens, will happen anyways with or without supervision"

I do not think ANY of us reason like this, now do we? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't leave thee tots alone, ever, much less at night with a door unlocked, and would not do this even in my own country. How 2 educated people could do this is beyond me.

The world has never been a safe place, not even in the 50's and 60's.

[CaliKid]

I believe the parents had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance above and beyond leaving the children unsupervised.

I do not believe they "had it coming". And I definitely do NOT think Maddie had it coming or got what she deserved.

Madeleine is a baby, an innocent victim. No matter how "hysterical" she might have been or how much she did or didn't obey her mother or how much she cried.

She is as much a victim of her parents' neglect as from anything a possible perp might have done to her.

[Jeana (DP)]

Sure, but the connection is flawed.

Having their kids taken by social services or being brought up on charges is something coming to them.

Having Maddie harmed is something totally different and separate. Tying to make the connection, imo, is deliberately offensive.

Yes, but I'm not willing to try and guess what these folks are thinking, nor do I think any of us can.

[Rino]

Yes, but I'm not willing to try and guess what these folks are thinking, nor do I think any of us can.
You lost me. What folks?, is my point.

Pinto implied some here feel they had it coming. There is no guessing, Pinto was clear with her accusations.


Originally Posted by pinto
I called it a meme, not a quotation.

And yes, there is definitely the sense that they had it coming

[Jeana (DP)]

You lost me. What folks?, is my point.

Pinto implied some here feel they had it coming. There is no guessing, Pinto was clear with her accusations.

Sorry, I'm working on minus zero sleep, so I may not be making much sense. By "folks," I mean the famiy and the posters here.

[Texana]

Sorry, I'm working on minus zero sleep, so I may not be making much sense. By "folks," I mean the famiy and the posters here.

Burning the candle at both ends again and then some?
Hope you get to catch up this weekend!

:blowkiss:

[pinto]

You lost me. What folks?, is my point.

Pinto implied some here feel they had it coming. There is no guessing, Pinto was clear with her accusations.

"Accusations" ... wow. I didn't think I'd been so strong. I'm pretty sure I wasn't. I was just pointing out that there has become a bit of a mob mentality against the parents because they were irresponsible and neglectful (which isn't even universally agreed upon: Times UK article (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1762734.ece)).

To me, it is a lot like not wearing your seatbelt. Most of the time, you are completely safe. But if there's a problem, it can be catastrophic. I ALWAYS wear my seatbelt, and make sure my kids do too. But some people don't. I try not to judge too much. If someone I know loses a kid because they didn't have them in a carseat and had an accident, I will know that that was a stupid error, but I'm not going to think about it very much. I will pity them.

If it is later suggested that the parent driving might have swerved into the other car on purpose, I might be pretty suspicious, but I'll make damn sure that it isn't just a rumor before I start believing that the parent caused the accident.

That's all. It just seems that some are really, really willing to believe the worst about the McCanns because they made an error in judgment.

[Jeana (DP)]

That's all. It just seems that some are really, really willing to believe the worst about the McCanns because they made an error in judgment.


I disagree. If they had "just" left the kids alone in that room night, after night, after night, that would be one thing. However, IF the evidence that has come to light is true, its a hell of a lot more serious than an error in judgment.

[docwho3]

. . .That's all. It just seems that some are really, really willing to believe the worst about the McCanns because they made an error in judgment. I think understand what you meant. I admit that the way the sentence was worded could easily be misread and misunderstood though. If I understood you correctly I agree with the sentiment you expressed. People need to try to separate their anger over the negligence issues from the issue of guilt or innocence of the actual crime of murder or kidnap or other criminal involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine. And if possible we need to try tamp down the strong emotions a bit as that can skew our thinking to the point that we might miss important clues if they do pop up to be noticed.

At the same time I also understand, as someone recently pointed out to me, that people are still human beings and in a case like this emotions often run high in spite of best efforts.

Edited to add: I acknowledge that it is also true that not all people that think the parents might be guilty of a crime are thinking that based solely on emotion. There has been a fairly good amount of evidence reported in the news. Whether that evidence is solid or not remains to be seen but it certainly has sounded very damning in its scope and nature so people have some reasons for thinking the parents might be guilty of a crime.

[concernedperson]

I think understand what you meant. I admit that the way the sentence was worded could easily be misread and misunderstood though. If I understood you correctly I agree with the sentiment you expressed. People need to try to separate their anger over the negligence issues from the issue of guilt or innocence of the actual crime of murder or kidnap or other criminal involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine. And if possible we need to try tamp down the strong emotions a bit as that can skew our thinking to the point that we might miss important clues if they do pop up to be noticed.

At the sa