Breaking News – TRACES FOUND ON A SECOND APARTMENT AT OCEAN CLUB

[colomom]

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS
MADELEINE McCANN DISAPPEARANCE: TRACES FOUND ON A SECOND APARTMENT AT OCEAN CLUB (13h33)
The Forensic Science Service, in Birmingham, is analysing several samples collected on another apartment of Ocean Club where, in the early morning of May 4, Portuguese sniffer dogs have signalled the presence of Madeleine McCann.

A new set of results will be send to Portugal in the next days. Those results are considered “very important”, as Police expects they can confirm or, at least give strong indications about the presence of Madeleine McCan on the second apartment at Ocean Club. Among the samples of this new set of results are also traces of biological material collected at apartment 5A and in the house the McCann rented, at Praia da Luz, when they left Ocean Club, several weeks after Madeleine disappeared.

The last set of results received by Portugues Police has a low degree of reliability – between 50 to 60 % - which is not enough to be admitted as evidence, on a trial. However, they were useful to help to give more consistency to other clues that Polícia Judiciária, in a close cooperation with British Police, has been collecting during the last four months. A surveillance operation, for example, has been set up one month ago and all movements of the McCann couple were followed closely by Police.

One of the first results to be ready was from blood specks found on the wall of the apartment from where Madeleine disappeared. Those results showed that the blood was not from Madeleine but from a man and the Forensic Science Service preliminary report referred a 72 % degree of reliability. Other blood sample, collected from the floor of the same apartment, matched partially the genetic profile of the missing child, but with a lower degree of reliability, a little bit over 50 %, result that does not allow to say that it belongs to Madeleine. (continue)

Paulo Reis, in Praia da Luz and Duarte Levy, in Leicester
(http://gazetadigital.blogspot.com)

[Taximom]

Is this 2nd apartment one rented by their friends?

Thanks, colomom, for the updates. And everything else you do here!

[colomom]

Don't know Taximom, it could be or it could be the 2nd apartment that the McCanns moved into May 4th. Oh, and your welcome....

Found this:

timesonline: http://tinyurl.com/ypsw7h

At the Ocean Club all four families had apartments in Waterside Gardens Block 5, which overlooked one of two pool and restaurant areas on the resort. It was not a gated site and Gerry’s and Kate’s ground floor apartment, 5a, was on a street corner. The group occupied two of the neighbouring apartments, 5b and 5d, and another on the floor above.

On the first night, Saturday, April 28, the adults and children all ate together at the Ocean Club’s other location, some 10 minutes away, the Millennium Restaurant and Terrace. But the next night, and for all the nights thereafter, all four families settled the children in their apartments and then walked down to the nearby Tapas restaurant with its open air tables offering a clear line of sight to the apartments, about 50 metres away.

You could see the rear of the apartments where french windows opened out of the lounge and kitchen area. In the McCanns’ apartment there was a master bedroom next to the lounge, a bathroom and, furthest away from the Tapas restaurant, at the front, next to the front door, the second bedroom where the three children were put to sleep every night.


**Now that I re-read it, it says the dogs scented on May 4th, that must have been one of the friend's apartments**

[colomom]

Wow, Paulo has been very busy:

http://gazetadigital.blogspot.com

I do not think Paulo is always correct, sometimes I think he is way off. But he has compiled alot of information in one spot for reference.

[BloodshotEye]

Thanks so much for the post, Colomom. Man, do you ever sleep? ;]

If anyone hears of the number of this "second" apartment, please post. Very curious to know.

Reliability of the Test Results
I wish the report would differentiate why there test results have varying degrees of reliability. Is it the quantity of the sample submitted for analysis, or is it the source, or method of collection.

Wondering if the quantity of sample is an issue, could it be submitted to a lab that can process micro amounts of sample. Like the DNAUI facility in Quantico, Virginia.

Thanks again for your work, Colomom.

[Taximom]

I'll admit to not being totally up on this case, so pardon my thoughts.

If this truly was a swinging holiday, is it possible that kids were involved? Since Madeleine's parents were doctors, she wouldn't be seen by any other doctors that might catch sexual abuse.

This is probably the wrong thread to post this on, now that I think about it.

[CarpeDiem]

I just don't know that even if they were swinger's, it means anything at all in relation to the crime in what happened to Madie. I also think that if that was what the vacation was about, it would have been more likely that they would have used some type of babysitting service, but maybe not. I also don't know that adult's that are involved in swinging are any more likely to sexually abuse a child than those that don't. Are there stat's, is there a perception that a swinger would be more likely to blur the line? I've never felt that way, I don't care whom other adult's we know are sleeping with, I only care about my husband and I and we are more than enough for eachother, but I wouldn't end a friendship or not allow my child to play with kid's of adult's whom did do that. I think we would probably be surprised by the amount of couples that do have "open" relationships.

[ceeaura]

Thanks for posting about the second apartment colomom :blowkiss:

I am on pins and needles,biting my nails cause I just want the truth to come out and justice for Madeleine to be served on whoever it maybe is responsible.I still think the parents and one or 2 of tapas 9 are involved.I could be wrong and if I am I would be elated and happy that I am that that crow I would be eating would be the most filling ever because I would much rather Madeleines parents be innocent.I can't help what my gut and senses are telling me. :(

[docwho3]

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS
MADELEINE McCANN DISAPPEARANCE: TRACES FOUND ON A SECOND APARTMENT AT OCEAN CLUB (13h33)
The Forensic Science Service, in Birmingham, is analysing several samples collected on another apartment of Ocean Club where, in the early morning of May 4, Portuguese sniffer dogs have signalled the presence of Madeleine McCann.. . . It was this 2nd apartment DNA evidence I was referring to in one of my first posts in the fence sitting thread. Don't know where I first heard of it but it was on TV, just can't remember which news agency. If true this evidence would be harder for the parents to explain than the first apartment evidence.

[Chanler]

Thanks so much for the post, Colomom. Man, do you ever sleep? ;]

If anyone hears of the number of this "second" apartment, please post. Very curious to know.

Reliability of the Test Results
I wish the report would differentiate why there test results have varying degrees of reliability. Is it the quantity of the sample submitted for analysis, or is it the source, or method of collection.

Wondering if the quantity of sample is an issue, could it be submitted to a lab that can process micro amounts of sample. Like the DNAUI facility in Quantico, Virginia.

Thanks again for your work, Colomom.

BloodShotEye, I don't anything about this specific test result, but it could be several things: It could be that specimen is degraded or it could mean that isolating the DNA from surrounding materials has either not been completely possible or has destroyed some of the DNA.

[mjak]

It is really hard to make any sense out of all this DNA evidence when all we can get is hearsay from media sources. There is a huge difference between blood splatter found and a miniscule finding of DNA matter belonging to Maddie. As these are her parents and siblings and they were moving from apartment to apartment. It is concievable that DNA matter for as innocent as skin droppings to saliva from tooth brushing could be found. I have to believe that PLE knows what is and is not relevant DNA findings but still it is so fustrating to just not really know what all this means. I mean I don't think it is shocking if you look hard enough to find DNA evidence of Maddie somewhere on her parents or their belonging. However, if that finding is blood or brain matter that is a whole different can of worms.

mjak

[poco]

Call me confused - what made them check this second apartment? Whose was it?

[Pinkhammer]

Where are all these swingers club rumors coming from?

I would think if the Brit docs are all swingers, that would be a reason to leave their nannies at home. Nannies are very observant and sometimes gossip.

[ceeaura]

Back at the beginning dogs were brought in and traced to the second apartment and the to a supermarket where the scent was then lost.

Whose apartment it was is not known yet.

[englishleigh]

If this apartment belonged to one of the Tapas 7, I hope it's an opening to some of, if not all, of them being called back in for questioning again.

[poco]

If this apartment belonged to one of the Tapas 7, I hope it's an opening to some of, if not all, of them being called back in for questioning again.

And this is breaking news because...............? It means that............?

Someone help me out here.

[Pinkhammer]

Good article about the early days of the case:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10462630

The Tapas Nine drank FOURTEEN bottles of wine the night Maddie disappeared?

Also, a bartender in a town 8 km away saw the McCanns, sans kids,in there for an entire evening days before the disapperance of Maddie.

Maybe not swingers, just drunks???

[philamena]

And this is breaking news because...............? It means that............?

Someone help me out here.
poco, I'm asking the same questions. ;)
If I understand this correctly, early on it was reported that the McCann's and their friends stayed in a few different condo's at the resort. It was just released that the blood splatters/DNA was found at this other apt. Hope that makes some sense.

[Pinkhammer]

Both swingers AND drunks tend to leave bodily fluids all over the place.

But not fluids detected by CADAVER DOGS.

[strach304]

If the lady upstairs could hear Madeleine crying then so could others in that complex. Logically speaking I think that could have been what initially got a predator's attention in the first place. That was reported as happening two days before the abduction so whoever did have time to stake out the situation and was right there and probably able to watch the comings and goings of the parents.

I know a lot of the reports haven't been accurate but I have questioned why an abductor if stalking came into play, would go through the window instead of an unlocked door. If he was observing from a window upstairs he couldn't see the door because of the overhang.

[strach304]

Another possibility is that apt. was empty and that's where an abductor originally took Madeleine. Could be the reason for LE being on the roof. I know, how did he get her out of there undetected? Hell if I know but the same rule applies for how the parents could have done it and not be seen.

[Chanler]

It is really hard to make any sense out of all this DNA evidence when all we can get is hearsay from media sources. There is a huge difference between blood splatter found and a miniscule finding of DNA matter belonging to Maddie. As these are her parents and siblings and they were moving from apartment to apartment. It is concievable that DNA matter for as innocent as skin droppings to saliva from tooth brushing could be found. I have to believe that PLE knows what is and is not relevant DNA findings but still it is so fustrating to just not really know what all this means. I mean I don't think it is shocking if you look hard enough to find DNA evidence of Maddie somewhere on her parents or their belonging. However, if that finding is blood or brain matter that is a whole different can of worms.

mjak

I can agree with everything you say here. I think that sourcing is a central problem here: The stories in the Portuguese press are detailed, but sometimes contradictory, confusing, or refuted by later reports.

[CaliKid]

The McCanns didn't just go to the Tapas every night. They were dining much further away, including a restaurant some 15 km down the coast.

[CaliKid]

It was this 2nd apartment DNA evidence I was referring to in one of my first posts in the fence sitting thread. Don't know where I first heard of it but it was on TV, just can't remember which news agency. If true this evidence would be harder for the parents to explain than the first apartment evidence.

doc, I believe this is one of the places the PJ was referring to when they said that DNA evidence of Madeleine had turned up in places it shouldn't have been.

[pedinurse]

am i the only one who thinks it is ENTIRELY possible that they WERE swingers, and that is why they DIDN'T bring their nannies?!?!?! that may have also been why they didn't hire the service... but maybe that is just me. just in theory, i would think that people would NOT want to bring their own personal babysitters or nannies on vacation with them if they were, um, planning that sort of behavior on vacation!!! and if it was planned... IT WAS PLANNED wayy in advance... you know what I mean?!?

And it would probably be obvious to adults around them... so keeping uninvolved adults to a minimum would have been what they wanted.

but that doesn't them guilty of murder. but i still think the mom did it.

i think it is entirely possibly they were swingin'... just from the LITTLE bit I have read though... my opinion!

[colomom]

am i the only one who thinks it is ENTIRELY possible that they WERE swingers, and that is why they DIDN'T bring their nannies?!?!?! that may have also been why they didn't hire the service... but maybe that is just me. just in theory, i would think that people would NOT want to bring their own personal babysitters or nannies on vacation with them if they were, um, planning that sort of behavior on vacation!!! and if it was planned... IT WAS PLANNED wayy in advance... you know what I mean?!?

And it would probably be obvious to adults around them... so keeping uninvolved adults to a minimum would have been what they wanted.

but that doesn't them guilty of murder. but i still think the mom did it.

i think it is entirely possibly they were swingin'... just from the LITTLE bit I have read though... my opinion!

I agree.

[Texana]

Good article about the early days of the case:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10462630

The Tapas Nine drank FOURTEEN bottles of wine the night Maddie disappeared?

Also, a bartender in a town 8 km away saw the McCanns, sans kids,in there for an entire evening days before the disapperance of Maddie.

Maybe not swingers, just drunks???

They've disputed the number of bottles of wine and said it was more like 4. So they went from a large number to a bare minimum. I find that number hard to believe just based on Oldfield's comment, "So what, we were drinking, we were on holiday." You don't have to defend much with less than two glasses of wine per person.

I don't think they were swingers. I think they liked to enjoy adult beverages with adults, and that's not so bad.

Leaving the kids alone, now we have to question their judgement altogether, in everything.

[Rino]

McCann's to be charged .....

http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=21385

I didn't know if this had been posted yet

[Taximom]

Wow. Thanks, Rino. I hadn't heard that.

[luvbeaches]

Thanks, Rino. I had not heard this information.

[concernedperson]

Kate with manslaughter. I wonder what they found in the apartment to come to that conclusion?

Thanks, Rino for the article. I can't say I am surprised.

[Anita Richman]

I have read very little on this case, so if someone can please clear this up, I would appreciate it. I thought the McCann's swore they weren't leaving Portugal until little Madeline was found. Have they gone back to England before this weekend? If not, why did they go now, which is the worst possible time image-wise?

[BloodshotEye]

BloodShotEye, I don't anything about this specific test result, but it could be several things: It could be that specimen is degraded or it could mean that isolating the DNA from surrounding materials has either not been completely possible or has destroyed some of the DNA.

Thanks Chanler. You're right. I wasn't thinking about a degraded sample, as it was only 25 days. But with the heat of the car, etc. - you're right.

[BirdieBoo]

I have read very little on this case, so if someone can please clear this up, I would appreciate it. I thought the McCann's swore they weren't leaving Portugal until little Madeline was found. Have they gone back to England before this weekend? If not, why did they go now, which is the worst possible time image-wise?

They did say as recently as yesterday that they would not leave until their names were cleared. However, they did arrive in the UK today. I believe their reason for leaving was to leave while they still had their freedom. Guilty or not I think an arrest of one or both was imminent if they had stayed. Also someone else mentioned that they may know they are to be charged and wanted to get their twins settled with relatives in the UK.

[jilly]

From the article:

Police believe the McCann's hid Madeleine's body for more than three weeks—then disposed of their dead child, using a hire car they rented 25 days after she disappeared, while they traveled Europe seeking financial and other support for the return of their 'missing daughter'.

So it's thought that they disposed of Madeleine in Europe??

[BirdieBoo]

From the article:

Police believe the McCann's hid Madeleine's body for more than three weeks—then disposed of their dead child, using a hire car they rented 25 days after she disappeared, while they traveled Europe seeking financial and other support for the return of their 'missing daughter'.

So it's thought that they disposed of Madeleine in Europe??

Portugal and the UK are both parts of Europe, it's a big continent. I don't think there's any doubt if they did something to her that they disposed if her in Europe.

[haypaula]

McCann's to be charged .....

http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=21385

I didn't know if this had been posted yet

Thanks for posting the link, Rino.

If the McCanns did what is alleged in that article, then they are true sociopaths, IMO, as besides causing their daughter's death and hiding her body, they traveled the world, had an audience with the Pope, met celebrities and bilked many generous, caring people who donated their hard earned dollars to help find Maddeleine.

However, at this time, I am not yet convinced they are involved in Maddie's disappearance, and await evidence of such.

IMO

[BloodshotEye]

The off-the-hook partying (swinging?), has me thinking about that horrid San Diego California case of an abduction and murder of little Danielle Van Dam. (Westervield v. Superior Court of San Diego County). If you recall, the parents' history of partying, specifically their antics on the night of the murder, put them in the unenviable position of being accused of their daughter's murder. Horrid case.

You guys are always masters, at pushing the envelope with regard to theories. I am grateful that we can express our edgy theories here. We have to be willing to ask the difficult questions, and pose the most detestable theories. It is my sense, that the PJ is doing just that - behind closed doors.

[mic730]

Kate with manslaughter. I wonder what they found in the apartment to come to that conclusion?

Thanks, Rino for the article. I can't say I am surprised.

I am also wondering what they have to charge Kate with manslaughter.

[jilly]

Portugal and the UK are both parts of Europe, it's a big continent. I don't think there's any doubt if they did something to her that they disposed if her in Europe.

So risky though....don't you think?

[BirdieBoo]

The off-the-hook partying (swinging?), has me thinking about that horrid San Diego California case of an abduction and murder of little Danielle Van Dam. (Westervield v. Superior Court of San Diego County). If you recall, the parents history of partying, specifically their antics on the night of the murder, put them in the unenviable position of being accused of their daughter's murder. Horrid case.

You guys are always masters, at pushing the envelope with regard to theories. I am grateful that we can express our edgy theories here. We have to be willing to ask the difficult questions, and pose the most detestable theories. It is my sense, that the PJ is doing just that - behind closed doors.

Bloodshot, I had the same thought about the parrallels to Danielle. Even these "DNA traces" seem to be similar. That is why, even in this case where I think the parents did it, I am trying to keep an open mind. It's difficult though.

[luvbeaches]

From the article:

Police believe the McCann's hid Madeleine's body for more than three weeks—then disposed of their dead child, using a hire car they rented 25 days after she disappeared, while they traveled Europe seeking financial and other support for the return of their 'missing daughter'.

So it's thought that they disposed of Madeleine in Europe??

Was this before of after they saw the Pope?

I wonder where they put her during that time? Do you think it's at all possible that she wasn't dead, but in very bad shape, and they left her with someone, and then ultimately she died? And at that point, they disposed of her body? Or even worse, she was barely alive and they left her adandoned somewhere and then they returned to get her late r(they knew she would be dead).

I'm having a hard time with the idea that after she died in the apartment, they put her somewhere, and went back to retrieve her body. After that length of time...OMG, the state of the body had to be horrendous.

[haypaula]

I have read very little on this case, so if someone can please clear this up, I would appreciate it. I thought the McCann's swore they weren't leaving Portugal until little Madeline was found. Have they gone back to England before this weekend? If not, why did they go now, which is the worst possible time image-wise?

Hi Anita!!!

It's great to see you!! Hope all is well with you and yours, and that you've enjoyed the summer!

I think the main reasons the McCanns left Portugal and returned to England are twofold; to seek counsel in their own Country and to leave the twins with family, as it seems Kate's arrest might be imminent, and neither she nor her husband would be able to care for the twins while they fight those charges in Portugal.

IMO

[jilly]

Was this before of after they saw the Pope?

I wonder where they put her during that time? Do you think it's at all possible that she wasn't dead, but in very bad shape, and they left her with someone, and the ultimately died? And at that point, they disposed of her body?

I'm having a hard time with the idea that after she died in the apartement, they put her somewhere, and went back to retrieve her body. After that length of time...OMG, the state of the body had to be horrendous.
Unless I am not following along on this correctly.

I agree LB. I've only come on board here the last couple of days so I'm sure one of the veterens here will be able to answer your questions. General consensus seems to be that immediately after her death she was put in a suitcase.

[BloodshotEye]

Bloodshot, I had the same thought about the parrallels to Danielle. Even these "DNA traces" seem to be similar. That is why, even in this case where I think the parents did it, I am trying to keep an open mind. It's difficult though.

I know what you mean, BirdieBoo. I agree.

[BirdieBoo]

So risky though....don't you think?

I think it would be more risky to try to move a dead body outside of Europe, if that's what happened. This of course would be if the parents harmed her. I think if she is dead and the parents did it, she will probably be found somewhere that the parents traveled to, or never found because of being in the ocean. I like the theory that she has been laid to rest near or in the church, though. I hope if she is deceased, she has been laid to rest in the church.

It has also been speculated that she was taken alive as a kidnap victim to Morocco, which is part of Africa.

[luvbeaches]

I agree LB. I've only come on board here the last couple of days so I'm sure one of the veterens here will be able to answer your questions. General consensus seems to be that immediately after her death she was put in a suitcase.

OMG, that's terrible! A suitcase...that poor baby. :(

[BirdieBoo]

Was this before of after they saw the Pope?

I wonder where they put her during that time? Do you think it's at all possible that she wasn't dead, but in very bad shape, and they left her with someone, and then ultimately she died? And at that point, they disposed of her body? Or even worse, she was barely alive and they left her adandoned somewhere and then they returned to get her late r(they knew she would be dead).

I'm having a hard time with the idea that after she died in the apartment, they put her somewhere, and went back to retrieve her body. After that length of time...OMG, the state of the body had to be horrendous.

I have thought that as well, about the state of the body. It's an interesting theory that she might have been in bad shape but not dead.

Is it possible that something was used to preserve the body if the parents killed her? Since they are doctors maybe they know of a preservation technique.

[nanandjim]

If they suspected the parents, I wish that they would have put a GPS on the car. I guess that they couldn't do it because they weren't in Portugal then. ??

[jilly]

I think it would be more risky to try to move a dead body outside of Europe, if that's what happened. This of course would be if the parents harmed her. I think if she is dead and the parents did it, she will probably be found somewhere that the parents traveled to, or never found because of being in the ocean. I like the theory that she has been laid to rest near or in the church, though. I hope if she is deceased, she has been laid to rest in the church.

It has also been speculated that she was taken alive as a kidnap victim to Morocco, which is part of Africa.

I like the church theory too. If they did kill her then I can't see them throwing her body in the ocean because that it very complicated and unless it's done properly the body could wash up on shore. Scott Peterson tried that even after researching tides and currents.

[mjak]

Thanks for posting the link, Rino.

If the McCanns did what is alleged in that article, then they are true sociopaths, IMO, as besides causing their daughter's death and hiding her body, they traveled the world, had an audience with the Pope, met celebrities and bilked many generous, caring people who donated their hard earned dollars to help find Maddeleine.

However, at this time, I am not yet convinced they are involved in Maddie's disappearance, and await evidence of such.

IMO

This is exactly the argument that keeps be from being convinced they are guilty. One has to beleive they are both sociopaths and that the group of 8 with them also are demented if they are involved with this. It is just so so so hard to accept.

mjak

[Trino]

This is exactly the argument that keeps be from being convinced they are guilty. One has to beleive they are both sociopaths and that the group of 8 with them also are demented if they are involved with this. It is just so so so hard to accept. mjak

Both are doctors, so they are used to see dead bodies. IMO they most likely thought of Madeline as just another corpse rather than their child.

Kate seemed to be having the most difficult time. Often she didn't look well, IMO perhaps mentally unstable. I think she would be the first to "crack."

[okietexan]

Kate with manslaughter. I wonder what they found in the apartment to come to that conclusion?

Thanks, Rino for the article. I can't say I am surprised.

I wonder the same. I guess I always thought if the parents did it (and I still just don't know!), that it was Gerry and not Kate who was responsible. Maybe because I am a mom and even though I know these things happen, it is just so hard to believe. Poor dear little Madeleine! I just wish she would be found, as I am sure we all do.

[sleuthin4fun]

From the article:

Police believe the McCann's hid Madeleine's body for more than three weeks—then disposed of their dead child, using a hire car they rented 25 days after she disappeared, while they traveled Europe seeking financial and other support for the return of their 'missing daughter'.

So it's thought that they disposed of Madeleine in Europe??


Does anyone suppose that they had help from someone to dispose of her body? If this is actually what happened.

[mjak]

Both are doctors, so they are used to see dead bodies. IMO they most likely thought of Madeline as just another corpse rather than their child.

Kate seemed to be having the most difficult time. Often she didn't look well, IMO perhaps mentally unstable. I think she would be the first to "crack."

I am refurring to more then just the horrific act of what they might have done to thier child but the months of campaigning and lying. To have done all of this these people would have to be sociopaths.

mjak

[Anita Richman]

Both are doctors, so they are used to see dead bodies. IMO they most likely thought of Madeline as just another corpse rather than their child.

Kate seemed to be having the most difficult time. Often she didn't look well, IMO perhaps mentally unstable. I think she would be the first to "crack."
Trino, what kind of doctors are they? My bf's hubby is a general practitioner and has never had a patient die.

[jilly]

am i the only one who thinks it is ENTIRELY possible that they WERE swingers, and that is why they DIDN'T bring their nannies?!?!?! that may have also been why they didn't hire the service... but maybe that is just me. just in theory, i would think that people would NOT want to bring their own personal babysitters or nannies on vacation with them if they were, um, planning that sort of behavior on vacation!!! and if it was planned... IT WAS PLANNED wayy in advance... you know what I mean?!?

And it would probably be obvious to adults around them... so keeping uninvolved adults to a minimum would have been what they wanted.

but that doesn't them guilty of murder. but i still think the mom did it.

i think it is entirely possibly they were swingin'... just from the LITTLE bit I have read though... my opinion!

I don't think they'd want their nannies around but on the otherhand, if I was going on a swinger vacation I don't think I'd want my kids there either. :p

[pedinurse]

I don't think they'd want their nannies around but on the otherhand, if I was going on a swinger vacation I don't think I'd want my kids there either. :p

Yeah me neither LOL but then again, I wouldn't go on a swinger vacation! LOL

[pedinurse]

Trino, what kind of doctors are they? My bf's hubby is a general practitioner and has never had a patient die.

Well, they can have people die.. but what GP is hanging around dead bodies all day? And if they do end up going and seeing someone at the time of a passing, are they caring around thier CHILDRENS TOYS WITH THEM? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was thinking WTF about that statement. She is nuts. Who does she think she is? Scully from the x-files?

[Camper]

I have only been following this case on TV.

First trip to this thread.

HOW in the hing hang could Maddies blood be found in the car rented 25 days AFTER Maddie went missing. I would lock them up on throw away the key. NOT legal, I know, grrrr.

The mother looks like she might have an eating disorder, seems unusually thin to me, unless she has lost a lot of weight after Maddie disappeared.

Maddie was the most beautiful child, how can people exist that do harm to babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Both the mom and dad, are tearless and stoic, their speaking and behavior seem so 'ODD' to me, not like me, but not everyone is like me, sad to say!!!

I had not heard news about the wine, could Maddie have been struck with a wine bottle by someone who had too much to drink? All things are possible I guess.

Wonder just where in the rented car the blood was found???? Anyone ?, thanks.

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.

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[jilly]

Does anyone suppose that they had help from someone to dispose of her body? If this is actually what happened.

They could have s4f - especially if they put her in the ocean. I don't know though. If they did have anything to do with her death, they've made such a big deal about child abductions, travel, the Pope and everything else, I would think it would be too risky for them to involve someone else. Better to just keep this between the two of them?

[jilly]

Yeah me neither LOL but then again, I wouldn't go on a swinger vacation! LOL

Me neither pedinurse! lol
I have to say, I always did wonder why they didn't take the nanny. Doesn't seem like they had much to do with the kids while they were there anyways. I seem to remember at the beginning of this case we were told the kids were in daycamps every day.

[Camper]

Wonder where their luggage was WHILE the PD was questioning them?

I could only hope LE put some sort of chip into the baggage or in their clothing to get some on the spot coverage of WHAT they talk about when they are alone.

.

[Salem]

I am refurring to more then just the horrific act of what they might have done to thier child but the months of campaigning and lying. To have done all of this these people would have to be sociopaths.

mjak

I agree majk.... but I think the media train got away from them. They were in quiet little Portugal. Make a report, the police will investigate, it will be over and they can go home. But within 2 days the story was covered by world news agencies, celebraties were coming out of the woodwork to donate money, political figures from England were pledging their support...... Everything just spun out of control.

Now, it appears they are in it up to their eyeballs and there is no way to save face. The only thing that can help them now, is if they take a deep breath, get the twins settled, go back to Portugal, admit what happened and say they are sorry.

At this stage of the game, I think the majority of people would believe it was an accident. We all watched how the media took over and made things crazy, so we can understand that.

However, it is my opinion that if they don't immediately go back to Portugal after settling the twins and if they fight extradition, the public will cry FOUL very loudly.

In most of the news reports it said the McCanns would go back to Portugal at any time for "further interviews." They did not agree they would go back to be charged/arrested in the death of their daughter. They did not say they would go back whenever summoned. They are saying they will go back for further interviews. So.... is that a media ploy or just carefully chosen words?

Salem

[mjak]

I agree majk.... but I think the media train got away from them. They were in quiet little Portugal. Make a report, the police will investigate, it will be over and they can go home. But within 2 days the story was covered by world news agencies, celebraties were coming out of the woodwork to donate money, political figures from England were pledging their support...... Everything just spun out of control.

Now, it appears they are in it up to their eyeballs and there is no way to save face. The only thing that can help them now, is if they take a deep breath, get the twins settled, go back to Portugal, admit what happened and say they are sorry.

At this stage of the game, I think the majority of people would believe it was an accident. We all watched how the media took over and made things crazy, so we can understand that.

However, it is my opinion that if they don't immediately go back to Portugal after settling the twins and if they fight extradition, the public will cry FOUL very loudly.

In most of the news reports it said the McCanns would go back to Portugal at any time for "further interviews." They did not agree they would go back to be charged/arrested in the death of their daughter. They did not say they would go back whenever summoned. They are saying they will go back for further interviews. So.... is that a media ploy or just carefully chosen words?

Salem

They drove the media campaign. They set up the most bizzare website and blog for their missing child I have ever seen. Then glavanted to the Pope and other places. I do not think the media got away from them. I think then fully joined the circus and encouraged it. If they did harm Maddie and did this campaign hoax they are sociopaths. They have to be.

mjak

[Salem]

Good points and I totally agree with you. But I think they could pull off the sympathy factor if they give up the chase NOW. Yes, it is amazing they could do such a thing, isn't it?

How long did it take them to get lawyers? A week? and only 2 weeks to get that campaign designated a corporation. They couldn't get the tax break for a non-profit, because they said the use of the money was for their personal expenses, legal fees, living expenses, etc. and then, anything left over would go to other missing kids.

It was a HOAX. It's still a hoax. Beyond comprehension. Their own daughter......

If they are innocent - they better pull something out of the hat pretty darn quick!

Salem

[Trino]

They drove the media campaign. They set up the most bizzare website and blog for their missing child I have ever seen. Then glavanted to the Pope and other places. I do not think the media got away from them. I think then fully joined the circus and encouraged it. If they did harm Maddie and did this campaign hoax they are sociopaths. They have to be. mjak

I agree - website. The first thing that struck me was donate - donate - donate - buy a bracket. Information appeared to be secondary.

[dingo]

Well, they can have people die.. but what GP is hanging around dead bodies all day? And if they do end up going and seeing someone at the time of a passing, are they caring around thier CHILDRENS TOYS WITH THEM? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was thinking WTF about that statement. She is nuts. Who does she think she is? Scully from the x-files?
Good points Pedi....we,ve been discussing this in the cuddlecat thread.

[englishleigh]

Honestly, next to killing their own child, accident or not....for me, the most heinous thing is the way they perpetrated this horrible hoax on the world and the POPE, for pete's sake!!! THE POPE!!! And had all these hard-working, well-meaning people donating money to them, they were just begging for money all the time...and all these celebs willing to help them and donate their money, etc....the McCanns, if they really did kill Maddie, are worse than sociopaths...I don't even think there's been a word invented yet for what they are. Even MONSTERS doesn't cover it for me. :furious:

[pedinurse]

Good points Pedi....we,ve been discussing this in the cuddlecat thread.
woops sorry. :-) the threads are all kind of bleeding together now... i've been over on that thread too! LOL

[Shazza]

Just saw on our local news, the McCanns leaving Portugal, arriving at their home and Gerry McCann made a statement, that he was unable to talk about the case and that they had left Portugal with the permission of the LE and that they wanted everyone to respect their privacy and leave them alone so they and their twins can settle back into a normal life.

Gerry McCann did say that Kate and he had nothing to do with Madelaines disappearance, as he said it, it was the first time I had seen any emotion from him throughout this whole ordeal, he stuttered and did sound as if he was about to cry.

[concernedperson]

Well, they can have people die.. but what GP is hanging around dead bodies all day? And if they do end up going and seeing someone at the time of a passing, are they caring around thier CHILDRENS TOYS WITH THEM? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was thinking WTF about that statement. She is nuts. Who does she think she is? Scully from the x-files?

I agree she is nuts. How many GP's hang around corpses unless they are coroners in a small town? The nurses are handling the bodies until they are turned over to the funeral home not the doctors.

[pedinurse]

I agree she is nuts. How many GP's hang around corpses unless they are coroners in a small town? The nurses are handling the bodies until they are turned over to the funeral home not the doctors.

Exactly. Doctors don't even usually come at the time of death unless they are unusually close to the families or it is a very special case. Now, I am talking in cases where death is expected. Now, for cases of unexpected death... all bets are off. EVERYONE is notified, and usually your regular doctor is showing up to the code along with the doctors that were in hours and the CODE BLUE team. Of course, everyone and their brother is there at an unexpected code blue. But if you ask any GP, they are not showing up to unexpected code blues daily...

But if death is expected... your doctor probably won't be there when you're passing unless you're especially close and they have especially asked to be notified. They are just so busy, so overloaded... it is hard. The nurses are the ones there handling the patients at the time of passing, spending time with the families. We notify the doctor after the patient has passed, they say "Oh, OK, thanks for letting me know." Some practices usually make an effort to send out cards to families, but when you're working 70+ hours a week... it is hard to make it every funeral.

We have pastoral care there too, of course. Between pastoral care and nursing, the funeral home is notified. Nurses and nursing assistants, in the meantime, pepare the bodies at the time of death so the families can view their loved one before they are taken to the funeral home. We had a palliative care unit with two room suites, so usually we just had them step into the family room (attached to the patient room with an adjoining door) while we did the preparation. They never had to leave. It was nice.

As stressed as healthcare can be in this area, the family sometimes never sees the doctor again unless they are their own doctor in the office or hospital. It's sad... when I was growing up, we were always really close to our doctors. It just doesn't seem to be that way these days. :(

So, unless she is going to code blue or arrests... I don't know that she would be seeing dead people on a regular basis?

[dingo]

woops sorry. :-) the threads are all kind of bleeding together now... i've been over on that thread too! LOLNo you dont need to apologise.....Im not the thread police:p

[colomom]

Quick thing folks, I agree with a prior poster that this thread has become a bit off topic. We should probably move over to the general discussion thread.

I will keep this one for us to report any BIG news just coming across the wire...

I will open a DNA thread and a thread about the cadaver dogs.

PM me if there is any other specific topic you would like to discuss. I would be happy to open a thread.

Thanks!!

[JanetElaine]

I know a lot of the reports haven't been accurate but I have questioned why an abductor if stalking came into play, would go through the window instead of an unlocked door. If he was observing from a window upstairs he couldn't see the door because of the overhang.

I have been wanting to say this about the locked/unlocked door part. Being from Europe I've been to a lot of European countries and the doorknobs/doorhandles are different than in the US.

In the US I have encountered many a door where you can just turn the doorknob from the outside and it will open the door if not locked. 'Locking the door' in the US usually means locking this doorknob, sometimes a seperate deadbolt is locked too (through a seperate keyhole).

No-where in Europe have I ever encountered a doorlock like this (and I have actually stayed in resorts in towns near Praya da Luz as well). Once you close the door it is impossible to open it without using a key. A lot of people also lock the door but that is an extra precaution like the deadbolt in the US. It just happens through the same keyhole that you use to unlock (open) the door when you want to get in.

A door in Europe would be called 'unlocked' when it is only pulled closed behind someone (even though you would need a key to open the door again).

An unlocked door in the US can still be opened from the outside without a key by turning the doorknob.

Just an observation, and hopefully MoonGoddess can shed some light on this also.

[EZRA]

Am I the only one that finds it odd that they gave their kids painkillers before they went out? She admitted that they gave them some painkiller? How messed up is that?

[Opie]

No, Ezra. You are not the only one. Certainly as physicians they would be familiar and probably comfortable with sedatives, etc, BUT such drugs are for patients who need to be relaxed, etc. for various reasons. To administer such drugs to their own very young children for reasons of convenience is just beyond my way of thinking.

I was thinking this very thing and came here and found your post on the subject.

[CaliKid]

EZRA. this is just what the grandfather said. I personally think it isn't true- I think something stronger was given. But owning up to use of a painkiller (Calpol) is more acceptable to the masses. It's another one of those "everybody does it" moments.

[Zelda]

Call me confused - what made them check this second apartment? Whose was it?

Was it the apartment of the father who had to stay and change sheets because his child vomitted?
None of the staff were contacted to bring fresh sheets. And what happened to the dirty sheets?
Maybe the friend was helping the doctors and the body was in his room.
I find this very strange. And I'd like to know if the apt. belonged to one of the group. If it didn't then it is a can of worms.

[Texana]

Regarding the sheet changing, none of the resort staff remembered being asked for clean sheets. The units did have washing machines and dryers, so they could have been washed by the father himself.

It's still a mystery to me why a doctor would leave a child so sick they were vomiting.

Unless he had given them something like Phenergan, which stops nausea/vomiting but makes one very, very sleepy. It'll knock you out in minutes.

[colomom]

Quick thing folks, I agree with a prior poster that this thread has become a bit off topic. We should probably move over to the general discussion thread.

I will keep this one for us to report any BIG news just coming across the wire...

I will open a DNA thread and a thread about the cadaver dogs.

PM me if there is any other specific topic you would like to discuss. I would be happy to open a thread.

Thanks!!
___________

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/UPDATE.gifhttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/UPDATE.gifhttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/UPDATE.gif

I have also asked a Mod to move this thread over to General Discussion as the discussion here is important and should be saved.

I guess a BREAKING NEWS thread doesn't work quite as I hoped....my bad.

Sorry and thanks for your patience with this newbie....:blushing: