General discussion thread #14

[chicoliving]

Here's a new thread for general discussion. Feel free to start threads on certain subjects that you'd like to discuss.

[Texana]

Maybe Moongoddess knows something about the strollers--owned vs. rented, since she was at the resort?

[Barnaby]

Can't understand why they would change strollers even if they were rented! Surely if you had twins you would have a stroller at home & bring it with you? I went on hols with kids aged 3 & 4 & I brought a twin stroller with me. Young kids get tired walking.
One of the pics with Gerry pushing the 3 wheeled stroller totally covered by a dark cover could have concealed Madeleines body, no child was visible.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Maybe Moongoddess knows something about the strollers--owned vs. rented, since she was at the resort?


Hopefully she knows something about the toilets used too. This sounds totally disgusting, but after reading about the woman who tried to flush her newborn baby, it had me thinking that maybe a couple doctors could carefully bleed out, dismember and flush smaller parts of a small child, with little or no blood if done properly. The torso & head could have been stored in the tank behind the seat for a few days in the cold water. We have rather large tanks on a regular toilet here, but I have no idea what they look like there. I see people talk about wrapping her body in blankets and towels, but most hotel rooms I've stayed in have had a large selection of plastic laundry bags...She could have been easily carried out in one of those without causing much suspicion or a shopping bag for that matter, if only parts of her where left.

[MoonGoddess]

Maybe Moongoddess knows something about the strollers--owned vs. rented, since she was at the resort?

Hi:) Sorry I cant help out there - my kids are 28&20 I didn't get to learn much about the runnings of the kids facilities, thinking about it, when I saw on tv today them arriving back and unloading the car - I didn't recall seeing a buggy being bought into the house... they could have hired one... maybe the Mark Warner site would indicate if they are for hire?

Hopefully she knows something about the toilets used too. This sounds totally disgusting, but after reading about the woman who tried to flush her newborn baby, it had me thinking that maybe a couple doctors could possibly bleed out, dismember and flush smaller parts of a small child. The torso & head could have been stored in the tank behind the seat for a few days in the cold water. We have rather large tanks on a regular toilet here, but I have no idea what they look like there. I see people talk about wrapping her body in blankets and towels, but most hotel rooms I've stayed in have had a large selection of plastic laundry bags...She could have been easily carried out in one of those without causing much suspicion or a shopping bag for that matter, if only parts of her where left.

Hi:) Ewwww - I dont personally go with the theory that she was dismembered... we were supplied with 3 fresh towels each when the maids called which we didnt always need as we took our own, at one point I think we ended up with around 6 each - I dont think it would be noticed if one or two of the big towels went missing, - I couldn't see that they were replacing like (dirty)for like (clean) so to speak - although we didn't have a maid service everyday (not at all at the weekend) I did ask about the water system because once one person had had a shower, it took at least half an hour for the water to heat up again and even then you didn't get a full tank... the plumbing out there isn't like it is at home...

We had bin liners supplied for the bins - the one in the kitchen was a fair size - put it this way, one could have gone over the top of her little body and another on the bottom half - it would have taken two...and there was one in the bottom of the bin ready to replace to used one...

As I have stated I feel she was taken out in a suitcase and quite possibly the suitcase bought back temporarily...

I have posted some pic's on picture thread which give a good indication of the type of land surrounding Luz...

I hope I have answered everything... gone midnight here...

Diane

[Spazkat9696]

Hopefully she knows something about the toilets used too. This sounds totally disgusting, but after reading about the woman who tried to flush her newborn baby, it had me thinking that maybe a couple doctors could carefully bleed out, dismember and flush smaller parts of a small child, with little or no blood if done properly. The torso & head could have been stored in the tank behind the seat for a few days in the cold water. We have rather large tanks on a regular toilet here, but I have no idea what they look like there. I see people talk about wrapping her body in blankets and towels, but most hotel rooms I've stayed in have had a large selection of plastic laundry bags...She could have been easily carried out in one of those without causing much suspicion or a shopping bag for that matter, if only parts of her where left.

I think that's a leap. I think they were involved, but I doubt they cold have done that. I think they loved her and this was an accident. What you have described I just can't imagine being able to do that to someone who you love. If they had done that I think one of them would have broken down by now.

[Texana]

Thanks Moongoddess! I know what you mean, once you don't need the little kiddie things anymore!

So we don't know if the resort rented or had strollers available, although if they did, it wasn't obvious to all guests. Perhaps it was just one of those services listed for guests but not displayed.

I can't see any reason anyone would think about taking a body apart. It's time consuming and messy and the most important thing to whoever is trying to dispose of a body, is to get it done as quickly as possible, without being detected.

[BirdieBoo]

I noticed the same ting about the sunshade, Barnaby!

[Trino]

Towels at a resort are a dime a dozen. Often maids leave carts in the hallway - wouldn't be difficult to take a few.

[JanetElaine]

I am bringing this over from another thread because it is more appropriate in the general discussion than it is there (and I fear it might get deleted, lol). My post was brought on by this quote:


Originally Posted by strach304 http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1669677#post1669677)
I know a lot of the reports haven't been accurate but I have questioned why an abductor if stalking came into play, would go through the window instead of an unlocked door. If he was observing from a window upstairs he couldn't see the door because of the overhang.


I have been wanting to say this about the locked/unlocked door part. Being from Europe I've been to a lot of European countries and the doorknobs/doorhandles are different than in the US.

In the US I have encountered many a door where you can just turn the doorknob from the outside and it will open the door if not locked. 'Locking the door' in the US usually means locking this doorknob, sometimes a seperate deadbolt is locked too (through a seperate keyhole).

No-where in Europe have I ever encountered a doorlock like this (and I have actually stayed in resorts in towns near Praya da Luz as well). Once you close the door it is impossible to open it without using a key. A lot of people also lock the door but that is an extra precaution like the deadbolt in the US. It just happens through the same keyhole that you use to unlock (open) the door when you want to get in.

A door in Europe would be called 'unlocked' when it is only pulled closed behind someone (even though you would need a key to open the door again).

An unlocked door in the US can still be opened from the outside without a key by turning the doorknob.

Just an observation, and hopefully MoonGoddess can shed some light on this also.

[strach304]

Thanks JanetElaine, that is very interesting. MoonGoddess, do you know what kind of locks are on the french doors there? I know in many of the reports I've read Kate and Gerry said they left those doors unlocked to check on the children. I've seen where there are additional locks that are on the inside such as bolts but I didn't get the impression that the french doors were secured in any manner.

[Reannan]

Does anyone else recall that when the Portugese tracking dogs were first brought in, shortly after Madeleine went missing, they tracked her to another apartment in the complex, and to the grocery store that was near by. I had thought perhaps at the time, that they were actually tracking blood on someone else's shoes. Does anyone know how trash is disposed of from the apartments? Is there a large trash bin at that grocery store? What about a large freezer that could have been used? Just thinking horrible thoughts here...... I hate this.

[JanetElaine]

Thanks JanetElaine, that is very interesting. MoonGoddess, do you know what kind of locks are on the french doors there? I know in many of the reports I've read Kate and Gerry said they left those doors unlocked to check on the children. I've seen where there are additional locks that are on the inside such as bolts but I didn't get the impression that the french doors were secured in any manner.

I have to add to my observation that what I said basically goes for front doors. Sometimes people have a back door with a door handle (push down) and such a door usually can be opened from the outside without using a key.... these doors (handles/locks) really are only used on entrances that are not accessible for everyone (i.e. the backdoor inside a fenced-in yard with locked gate).

But never on any door that I have ever encountered in any resort including in Portugal, and that's why I didn't elaborate in my first post about this. I somehow felt the need to explain now, though. :o

Really hoping MoonGoddess will chime in about this.

[JanetElaine]

Does anyone else recall that when the Portugese tracking dogs were first brought in, shortly after Madeleine went missing, they tracked her to another apartment in the complex, and to the grocery store that was near by. I had thought perhaps at the time, that they were actually tracking blood on someone else's shoes. Does anyone know how trash is disposed of from the apartments? Is there a large trash bin at that grocery store? What about a large freezer that could have been used? Just thinking horrible thoughts here...... I hate this.

Yeah I remember that. That's why in the thread 'Where is she' I asked at exactly which point the dogs were brought in (I didn't get an answer yet though). If it was after the dumpster at the grocery store usually gets emptied, then that's my guess of where she is.... :(

[CaliKid]

I am bringing this over from another thread because it is more appropriate in the general discussion than it is there (and I fear it might get deleted, lol). My post was brought on by this quote:



I have been wanting to say this about the locked/unlocked door part. Being from Europe I've been to a lot of European countries and the doorknobs/doorhandles are different than in the US.

In the US I have encountered many a door where you can just turn the doorknob from the outside and it will open the door if not locked. 'Locking the door' in the US usually means locking this doorknob, sometimes a seperate deadbolt is locked too (through a seperate keyhole).

No-where in Europe have I ever encountered a doorlock like this (and I have actually stayed in resorts in towns near Praya da Luz as well). Once you close the door it is impossible to open it without using a key. A lot of people also lock the door but that is an extra precaution like the deadbolt in the US. It just happens through the same keyhole that you use to unlock (open) the door when you want to get in.

A door in Europe would be called 'unlocked' when it is only pulled closed behind someone (even though you would need a key to open the door again).

An unlocked door in the US can still be opened from the outside without a key by turning the doorknob.

Just an observation, and hopefully MoonGoddess can shed some light on this also.

Thanks for clarifying this. Can you tell me if sliding patio doors are like the ones in the US or do they also lock when closed. I ask because I don't think it's ever been established what door the McCanns used to check the kids.

[strach304]

Calikid, I've read several places where they said they used the french doors. They were facing the pool and closest to the restaurant as well. I've read reports stating they were locked and unlocked but the reports where they state unlocked seem to be coming from the McCanns directly.

The date for the dogs was the 4th of May. I'd love to know which top apt. those dogs traced her scent to. We know one was occupied by the elderly lady and another by someone in the McCanns group.

[april4sky]

Can't understand why they would change strollers even if they were rented! Surely if you had twins you would have a stroller at home & bring it with you? I went on hols with kids aged 3 & 4 & I brought a twin stroller with me. Young kids get tired walking.
One of the pics with Gerry pushing the 3 wheeled stroller totally covered by a dark cover could have concealed Madeleines body, no child was visible.
Maybe they only booked the first stroller for the duration of their holiday dates and this had to be returned. They then had to hire a second as they didn't return home.

[Elphaba]

Anyone else following the many interviews that Philomena McCann has been doing? (a very vocally supportive family member that is often referred to as "Aunty Phil") Some of the things she says, as she flits from one interview after another, are almost comedic in nature, but this case isn't something to be made light of. She's regaled the cadaver dogs along the lines of "Lassie"... she's said Gerry told her not to antagonize the Portuguese, but then went on to call the PJ imbeciles (nothing says "NOT antogonzing them" like calling the PJ imbeciles)... and one that had me shaking my head at her, she said: "the police shouldnt be looking at any evidence that implicates Kate and Gerry".

Seriously... why are the McCann's allowing this lady to speak for them? She's doing them more harm than good... and as each day passes and she engages in more interviews, the more crazier she sounds. Team McCann needs to seriously put a muzzle on her...

[ceeaura]

A thought just occured to me while reading this on another thread.Was'nt sure where to put it so thought I would put here to get some feed back from it.

poco


This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script
__________________



Maybe an accident happened or what they thought was a mild reaction to the sedative occured.They didn't think it was serious.Maybe they had or one of their friends knew someone there that they asked to look in on Madeleine.The person or persons did not check like they should have and when they did they discovered she had died,they panic and took Madeleine away.Maybe that is why kate said "They took her".

So I asked myself why G&K would not say who took her?The only thing I can come up with is that that person(s) had something on them and are blackmailing them.G&K may have thought all along that Madeleine was alive until now with the cadavar dogs and the DNA samples.

I don't think this is what happened.Still think it was an accidental death that the parents are covering up.I just wanted to throw this idea out there.

[colomom]

Anyone else following the many interviews that Philomena McCann has been doing? (a very vocally supportive family member that is often referred to as "Aunty Phil") Some of the things she says, as she flits from one interview after another, are almost comedic in nature, but this case isn't something to be made light of. She's regaled the cadaver dogs along the lines of "Lassie"... she's said Gerry told her not to antagonize the Portuguese, but then went on to call the PJ imbeciles (nothing says "NOT antogonzing them" like calling the PJ imbeciles)... and one that had me shaking my head at her, she said: "the police shouldnt be looking at any evidence that implicates Kate and Gerry".

Seriously... why are the McCann's allowing this lady to speak for them? She's doing them more harm than good... and as each day passes and she engages in more interviews, the more crazier she sounds. Team McCann needs to seriously put a muzzle on her...

In my opinion that woman should be muzzled :furious:

She is embarassing...

Just my opinion, of course :innocent:

[Rino]

So I asked myself why G&K would not say who took her?The only thing I can come up with is that that person(s) had something on them and are blackmailing them.G&K may have thought all along that Madeleine was alive until now with the cadavar dogs and the DNA samples.

I don't think this is what happened.Still think it was an accidental death that the parents are covering up.I just wanted to throw this idea out there.


Interesting. Even if a friend did the "taking" as an attemp to aid in covering up the accident, it would benefit the McCanns at this point to go along with the ruse. Therefore some, if not all of the Tapas 9 are involved with at least the cover up and that would explain the pact of silence

[Texana]

And why wouldn't she call the police from the apartment, instead of running back to the restaurant? or go to a neighbor?

Why doesn't anyone call the police for another 40 minutes when "They've taken her!" is the first words out of Kate's mouth?

[MoonGoddess]

:blowkiss: Hi all,

Re the 'front door' (Brown Wooden) If you just went out and shut the door, it could be opened from the inside by pulling to one side a 'lever', if you turned the key twice (anti-clockwise that I recall) in the 'keyhole' (front) as you went out - you could not open it from the inside ... I hope this makes sense - I think it is referred to as 'dead-locking'.

The patio doors are 'sliding', you can only lock them from the inside, where the UPVC panels meet in the middle, there is a little black knob which you press inwards, this releases a small iron cylinder that fits into the back panel (no key involved) - this is the best likeness I could find:-

http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/151262.100x100.jpeg

(not an exact likeness but to give you an idea) to 'release' (open) it again there is another small black knob which you press inwards... (do hope this makes sense) by leaving them open just an inch or so would allow you to slide to one side in order to gain access.

I did speak to someone involved in the search, they did say the big green bins (I saw @12 dotted around in the immediate vacintity - including 3 at front of supermarket and three at back) - this is a good likeness of the type of bin:-

http://www.preston.gov.uk/Images/General/Envionment/cleansing/trade%20bin.jpg

I made a point of noticing that @6.30 they were full to overflowing (at supermarket) and where they were located (supermarket), it would be difficult to stuff something anywhere near the bottom without raising suspicion), there are bins in surrounding streets though and not so full, but I was told these bins were checked (quite how they would get to the bottom I dont know) also I believe they are collected @10 at night by refuse dept. I guess it is feasable that they may have been emptied before the full search was under way... but I would sincerely believe that as the PJ were suspicious from the start about the 'abduction' theory that surely they would have checked with their refuse dept...

Hope this all makes sense....

Diane

[ceeaura]

And why wouldn't she call the police from the apartment, instead of running back to the restaurant? or go to a neighbor?

Why doesn't anyone call the police for another 40 minutes when "They've taken her!" is the first words out of Kate's mouth?


Yea no kidding! As a mom if I had discovered my child gone,my screaming my childs name in pure panic mode while searching under the beds and closects ect would have had people in near by apartments or passerbys running in.Then I would have been on the phone to the police.

as a side note I know this is what I would have done because I have done it.My son who was 4 at the time(hes 13 now) was playing out side I turned my back for just a couple of minutes to deal with my 8 yearold daughter who was being very bratty to another child and when I turned back around he and the little boy he was playing were gone(don't know where his mother was).I screamed and went running into our apartment searching for them.Neighbors in the apartment complex came out and everyone was searching the area (pool area,underbushes,behind the apartments)while I was on the phone with the police.The police responded within 5 minutes.We had 2 entrances in the complex.One was a major highway.My biggest fear was he was abducted.As I was talking to the officer who had came in the etrance off the highway.Another police officer pulled in the second entrance with both boys and two little bikes..how and where they got those bikes from I have no idea:eek:.When I saw my son I went running like a mad woman to pick my son up,the other cop whom I was talking to told me to stop.I didn't.I wanted my child in my arms and nobody was going to keep me from him,even a police officer with a gun.

This all happened from beginning to end in just under 10 minutes.That other mother and I got so lucky that day.I still have not forgiven myself and the what ifs still run through my head.

So her actions that night don't ring true with me.Speaking from my own experience.

[colomom]

MADELEINE: 'WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT'

Monday September 10,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz and Martin Evans in Rothley

The parents of Madeleine McCann flew back to Britain yesterday as Portuguese police said: “We have enough evidence to convict you.”

They made their confidence clear as Kate and Gerry McCann dramatically returned home with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.

The couple left the Algarve just two days after they were named as official suspects in the disappearance of their elder daughter. Detectives now expect to receive further forensic evidence gathered from the McCanns’ ground-floor apartment at the Ocean Club complex today or tomorrow.

A source close to the Policia Judiciaria said they were expecting the results from the latest batch of tests to clinch their case against the couple.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/18738

[JanetElaine]

Re the 'front door' (Brown Wooden) If you just went out and shut the door, it could be opened from the inside by pulling to one side a 'lever', if you turned the key twice (anti-clockwise that I recall) in the 'keyhole' (front) as you went out - you could not open it from the inside ... I hope this makes sense - I think it is referred to as 'dead-locking'.

That's correct, that's how it would work. Now to open this door from the outside, you would always need a key, 'dead-locked' or not. Europeans though would only call a dead-locked door 'locked'. A door that's just shut behind you would still be referred to as unlocked, even though you'd need a key to get in from the outside.

The patio doors are 'sliding', you can only lock them from the inside, where the UPVC panels meet in the middle, there is a little black knob which you press inwards, this releases a small iron cylinder that fits into the back panel (no key involved) - this is the best likeness I could find:-

http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/151262.100x100.jpeg (http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/151262.100x100.jpeg)

(not an exact likeness but to give you an idea) to 'release' (open) it again there is another small black knob which you press inwards... (do hope this makes sense) by leaving them open just an inch or so would allow you to slide to one side in order to gain access.

CaliKid, you asked about the sliding doors, as I know them they are all as MoonGoddess described them, no lock on the outside. I also know sliding doors though that can be closed all the way but just slid back open by whoever, from the outside, I don't think you'd need to necessarily leave them open a bit (was that what you were saying, MG?). But no locks, only from the inside.

I made a point of noticing that @6.30 they were full to overflowing (at supermarket) and where they were located (supermarket), it would be difficult to stuff something anywhere near the bottom without raising suspicion), there are bins in surrounding streets though and not so full, but I was told these bins were checked (quite how they would get to the bottom I dont know) also I believe they are collected @10 at night by refuse dept. I guess it is feasable that they may have been emptied before the full search was under way... but I would sincerely believe that as the PJ were suspicious from the start about the 'abduction' theory that surely they would have checked with their refuse dept...


Which bins were checked, do you know? I can't really tell if you meant all of them (supermarket and surrounding streets) or just the surrounding streest (or just the supermarket). I really really hope they got to all of them, especially the store dumpsters, before emptying time.... there should be a ban against picking up garbage in the general area of where a child (someone) is missing, or it should be put in a seperate area at the dump or something. :(

[Barnaby]

Maybe they only booked the first stroller for the duration of their holiday dates and this had to be returned. They then had to hire a second as they didn't return home.
A media article confirmed that they had left toys, other things & a twin buggy behind in Portugal yesterday so they had their own with them as one would expect. Most peculiar that they are seen wheeling two different ones. I think that 3 wheeled buggy should be examined!

[Jdee]

April posted this article... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece

I found this statement interesting and if true does change what Kate said when she ran back to the bar..

"She ran down the hill and into the restaurant, where Gerry recalls her shouting or screaming either “Madeleine has gone. Somebody has taken her” or “Madeleine has gone. Someone has taken her”. Other reports suggest she shouted, “They've taken her.”

The article also gives an interesting timeline to the events that night.

[Rino]

MADELEINE: 'WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT'

Monday September 10,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz and Martin Evans in Rothley



http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/18738


Concern has also been raised that the PJ were apparently happy to allow the McCanns to continue using the hire car in which Madeleine’s blood was allegedly found despite British sources saying it should be treated as evidence.


Last night it emerged that the McCanns have chosen not to return the silver car to the hire firm. They are understood to be continuing to rent it so that they can have their own forensic tests carried out.(snip)

I remember thinking it was odd that they were able to continue to use the car. But what is not odd is that the McCanns will now not return the car.

[KOOL LOOK]

Having just returned froma five week vacation in florida, i can tell you i left with a whole lot more than I arrived with. Due to shopping, picking up items not packed, etc...

So to weigh in on the Mccanns leaving items behind, that's one hundred percent understandable. Especially considering many many strangers, family probably sent and donated toys, clothes, etc... as they were there for months.

Understandable. I almost needed an eighteen wheeler to get me home, te he, hubby realized how much shoppin I had done while he worked on our vacation. Teach him to take Beau and me on a working vacation, hah hah!

I bought him lots of goodies too, so don't go blasting me :blowkiss:

[MoonGoddess]

That's correct, that's how it would work. Now to open this door from the outside, you would always need a key, 'dead-locked' or not. Europeans though would only call a dead-locked door 'locked'. A door that's just shut behind you would still be referred to as unlocked, even though you'd need a key to get in from the outside.



CaliKid, you asked about the sliding doors, as I know them they are all as MoonGoddess described them, no lock on the outside. I also know sliding doors though that can be closed all the way but just slid back open by whoever, from the outside, I don't think you'd need to necessarily leave them open a bit (was that what you were saying, MG?). But no locks, only from the inside.



Which bins were checked, do you know? I can't really tell if you meant all of them (supermarket and surrounding streets) or just the surrounding streest (or just the supermarket). I really really hope they got to all of them, especially the store dumpsters, before emptying time.... there should be a ban against picking up garbage in the general area of where a child (someone) is missing, or it should be put in a seperate area at the dump or something. :(

Hi:blowkiss:

Re patio doors - TBH I cant recall if there was a handle on the outside that would be used to slide them back once fully closed, I guess you could slide them back without a handle, but I was thinking along the lines that they had claimed (via a source close to) they left them open "incase of fire" - it would be hard for a child to have opened them from the inside if fully closed... know what I mean?

Re bins - I was told "we searched all the bins" - from that I accepted (just my interpretation) that all the bins in and around surrounding area were checked...

Diane

[ceeaura]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2423304.ece?token=null&offset=12

From Times Online
September 10, 2007


Police push for charges against Madeleine McCann's mother as case goes to prosecutor

David Brown and Steve Bird, of The Times, in Praia da Luz

A police file of evidence which allegedly proves that Kate McCann killed her daughter is expected to be handed to a public prosecutor in Portugal today.
Detectives believe they have now collected enough evidence for Mrs McCann to be charged with the homicide of Madeleine by failing to prevent her death. The charge is equivalent to manslaughter in British law. She would also face a charge of concealing a Madeleine’s body.
Officers were furious when a plan for Mrs McCann to be charged on Thursday last week was halted after her lawyer met with the Portugal’s Attorney General, it was claimed today.
A new file of evidence includes lengthy interviews with both Mrs McCann and her husband, Gerry, after they were made official suspects last week. It also includes details of forensic evidence collected in the McCann’s apartment and hire car and the results of surveillance by Portuguese and British police.
function pictureGalleryPopup(pubUrl,articleId) {var newWin = window.open(pubUrl+'template/2.0-0/element/pictureGalleryPopup.jsp?id='+articleId+'&&offset=0&&sectionName=UK','mywindow','menubar=0,resizable=0, width=615,height=655');}Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses, the public prosecutor based in Portimao, will have to decide what, if any, charges should be brought against Mr and Mrs McCann. The couple can remain as official suspects for up to eight months.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the Portuguese police inquiry, said: “At the moment the inquiry is being prepared to be handed to the prosecutor in charge of the case. He will analyse it and after this he will make his decision.”
Asked when the papers would be handed over, he said: “Probably during today.”
Portuguese police decided to pass the file on to the prosecutor despite not having all the results from forensic tests being carried out by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
Mr Sousa said: “The information is that we have received part of the forensic results, so we are waiting for the rest."
The McCanns' Portuguese lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, has said he has no idea how long it would take for the case to be concluded. It is understood the McCanns could have to wait months before learning whether they will be charged or cleared.
If charged, the couple could be remanded in “preventative custody” by a judge while they await trial.
The McCann’s had previously insisted they would return to Portugal if requested by police but their decision to consult a British expert in extradition law has led to speculation that they may fight an extradition order.
Michael Caplan, QC, has previously represented Chilean dictator General Pinochet in his battle to avoid extradition on charges of torture and human rights abuses.
However, the introduction of a European Arrest Warrant in 2004 will make it much harder for Mr and Mrs McCann to successfully challenge any extradition request.
Portuguese detectives appear to be working on the theory that Mrs McCann killed her daughter by accident and covered up the death by claiming she was abducted. Her husband’s alleged role is not clear, but sources said police believe he was an accessory to the killing and helped hide their daughter’s body.
Portuguese newspapers claimed today that Madelene was accidentally killed by an overdose of sedative, by drinking medication or after being slapped or pushed. Mrs McCann is the key suspect as British tourists claim she put Madeleine to bed while her husband played tennis or swam.
Portuguese police were yesterday reported to be preparing for a fresh series of searches in Praia da Luz. The sites included the villa where the McCanns had stayed and an area south of the Ocean Club resort where Madeleine disappeared 130 days ago,
Mr and Mrs McCann returned to their home in Rothley, Leicestershire, yesterday with their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said today it was "unbelievable" that Kate and Gerry McCann had been named as "arguidos", or formal suspects, in her disappearance.
"The way the Portuguese have turned this investigation round, and they are no longer looking for a live child, they are assuming on spurious evidence, that Madeleine is now dead, well, we don't agree with that in any shape or form," she told BBC Breakfast.
"We want the investigation changed round to look for Madeleine alive, as we reckon she is."
Ms McCann said the couple would be "absolutely" co-operating with the Portuguese police and were prepared to return to Portugal to undergo further questioning.
After touching down at East Midlands Airport just after noon yesterday, Mr McCann, his voice breaking, insisted they played no part in her disappearance.
He said: "Whilst it is heartbreaking to return to the UK without Madeleine, it does not mean we are giving up our search.
"As parents we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened."
The couple do not know if or when police will call them back to Portugal, although they will obey even if they fear they could be arrested, a family friend said.
"They are not running away. It is a change of place but they are very happy to help the police," the friend said.
The family's decision to return to Britain was in large part based on their desire to maintain a sense of normality for their two youngest children.
Mr McCann said: "We want the twins, as much as is reasonably possible, to live an ordinary life in their home country, and we want to consider the events of the last few days which have been so deeply disturbing."
It is very unlikely they will bring the twins back to Portugal with them if police need them for further interviews, a friend said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Long article.Very interesting.Heres one part that caught my eye


Portuguese newspapers claimed today that Madelene was accidentally killed by an overdose of sedative, by drinking medication or after being slapped or pushed. Mrs McCann is the key suspect as British tourists claim she put Madeleine to bed while her husband played tennis or swam.

[Texana]

April posted this article... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece

I found this statement interesting and if true does change what Kate said when she ran back to the bar..

"She ran down the hill and into the restaurant, where Gerry recalls her shouting or screaming either “Madeleine has gone. Somebody has taken her” or “Madeleine has gone. Someone has taken her”. Other reports suggest she shouted, “They've taken her.”

The article also gives an interesting timeline to the events that night.

This is the first article that says the parents often "crisscrossed each other" in their paths to check on the children--however, at the most critical time, the last check Gerry made on the children, when he encountered Jeremy Wilkins, Jane Tanner was also away from the table checking on her children.

She did not see either of the two men and they did not see her.

The "crisscrossing" is most definitely an exaggeration at best or an outright distortion of truth.

[Edwards20]

A slap OR overdose ? Still seems like speculation to me. It would be hard to pinpoint either while she has not been found. I am still having a hard time with this.

What type of newspaper is this timesonline ?

[JanetElaine]

Hi:blowkiss:

Re patio doors - TBH I cant recall if there was a handle on the outside that would be used to slide them back once fully closed, I guess you could slide them back without a handle, but I was thinking along the lines that they had claimed (via a source close to) they left them open "incase of fire" - it would be hard for a child to have opened them from the inside if fully closed... know what I mean?

Re bins - I was told "we searched all the bins" - from that I accepted (just my interpretation) that all the bins in and around surrounding area were checked...

Diane

Definitely know what you mean re. the sliding doors. Don't they have some kind of 'dent' in them that serves as a 'grip', both inside and out tho? That's what I remember anyway... But it doesn't make sense, if they claimed they left them open 'in case of fire', they would have had to leave them open quite a bit, for a child to at least be able to put their arm/shoulder in there to push the door open (as they wouldn't be strong enough IMO to just slide the doors open by only putting their hand(s) in the opening). Of course not a lot the McC's are saying makes sense so I don't know why that would surprise me. :doh:

Thanks for the info about the bins too. :)

[T-Rex]

From the article above: "When Oldfield reached the corner apartment he entered through the closed but unlocked french windows and checked on the sleeping children."
Does that mean the sliding glass doors?

[Jdee]

A slap OR overdose ? Still seems like speculation to me. It would be hard to pinpoint either while she has not been found. I am still having a hard time with this.

What type of newspaper is this timesonline ?

I think it is The Times online and The Times has a good reputation in the U.S.

[MoonGoddess]

From the article above: "When Oldfield reached the corner apartment he entered through the closed but unlocked french windows and checked on the sleeping children."
Does that mean the sliding glass doors?

Hi:)

Yes it does mean the sliding patio doors.

[Salem]

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1391412007

~snip~ And the McCanns strongly denied that they would ever use sedatives on any of their three children.
Mr McCann said: "Our daughter was snatched from her bed on 3 May. She is still missing. The police have said time and time again we are not suspects.
"These are the facts. Everything else is at best speculation and, in some cases, downright lies."
A spokesman for the McCann family added: "This statement is without truth or evidence.
"The McCanns feel the allegations are very serious and damaging to their professional and personal reputations." ~end snip~

My bolding. Never use sedatives? Calpol is "rumored" to be used as a sedative. My research show it is the same as Tylenol. Although on the Calpol thread it has been stated that you can buy Calpol with codiene in it over the counter. But don't even think you might get some neosporin :p

If, as is indicated, Gerry administered the Calpol by needle, would that make you think it was the kind with codiene? Tylenol comes in liquid form for little guys. What the heck were the needles about?:waitasec:

Salem

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1391412007

~snip~ ...If, as is indicated, Gerry administered the Calpol by needle, would that make you think it was the kind with codiene? Tylenol comes in liquid form for little guys. What the heck were the needles about?:waitasec:

Salem


Heroin? Maybe the syringes where really used by the parents, and the sedative/ and/or medication thing is all a lie. Think about it, the only parents I have ever heard of who leave their BABIES purposely alone (While they party) are those on drugs. You hear about it all the time...even respected "doctors"

[Rhett]

What about in one of the articles I believe located on the media links thread which states that Kate called the media before calling the police when Maddi disappeared? No one has commented on that. If true, that is very telling. Also, I think the PJ are giving more importance than we realize to the older lady who heard Maddi crying. I think she may have heard more than has been released. I think Kate was abusive towards Maddi and the lady heard it. JMO

[CaliKid]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsosmaddie.dhblogs.be%2F&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

SOSMaddie probably won't have this posted tomorrow (no embedded links) so I'm going to post/translate here what it says for today:

Friends of McCanns Refuse to Travel to Portugual

A source close to the investigation claims that four of the seven friends who were in Praia da Luz on May 3 and took part in the dinner at the Tapas Bar Restaurant refused to travel to Portugal and be questioned by the Criminal Investigation Department (CID).

[Texana]

I'm betting that's O'Brien and Tanner, and the Oldfields.

[JanetElaine]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsosmaddie.dhblogs.be%2F&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8 (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsosmaddie.dhblogs.be%2F&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)

SOSMaddie probably won't have this posted tomorrow (no embedded links) so I'm going to post/translate here what it says for today:

Friends of McCanns Refuse to Travel to Portugual

A source close to the investigation claims that four of the seven friends who were in Praia da Luz on May 3 and took part in the dinner at the Tapas Bar Restaurant refused to travel to Portugal and be questioned by the Criminal Investigation Department (CID).

So if your daughter was really kidnapped and your friends did this, that'd be the end of the friendship, right?

:doh:

[BloodshotEye]

The list of Drivers of the Rented/Hired Car
Reference: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480805&in_page_id=1770

Quoting from article:
"The revelation came as a friend of the McCanns raised further questions over the credibility of the police's evidence against Kate. The friend said the car, believed to have been rented from Eurocar at Faro airport, had been hired on May 28 --25 days after Madeleine vanished. And she revealed that "a variety of other named drivers" had access to it over the 72 days before it was taken in to be swabbed on August 7. The revelation suggests that any traces of blood in the car could not be directly linked to Madeleine's parents.

The friend said: "The car was hired 25 days after Madeleine disappeared and a variety of people, family included, used the car.

"Then police took the car in around 100 days after Madeleine disappeared before giving it back to Kate and Gerry." The family friend was also able to give an explanation for the timing of the rental which it is believed had caused interest among detectives. The car was hired the day before the McCanns travelled to Rome to be blessed by the Pope, at a time when they would not personally need a vehicle. But the family friend explained that the car was always intended for use by a number of people around the couple in Praia da Luz, especially while the McCanns were away on their tour to gain publicity for the Find Maddie campaign. "

Comment:
Well then, if the family is so sure that others drove the car, e.g. some of the Tappas 9, then they need to come up with a list of names. Presumably, the PJ already has such a list.

I am mentally reviewing the short list of people who "put ear to the McCann's door", "peeked in on the McCann's children", while the Tappas party was going on. And from that short list, who - if any of them, drove or had access to this "communal set of car keys". It would be a very short list.

Question:
Are we presuming that it is these car keys, are the set on which the dogs detected a cadaver scent?

[philamena]

BSE,
Yep the list would be short and fairly easy for LE to investigate.

[sleuthin4fun]

Does anyone find it strange that we really haven't heard much from their friends and co-workers. I know in the hospital I worked in we were like a big family. We were there for each other through the good annd the bad. Why are we not hearing anything in support of the McCanns from them? Curious.

[kazzbar]

Does anyone find it strange that we really haven't heard much from their friends and co-workers. I know in the hospital I worked in we were like a big family. We were there for each other through the good annd the bad. Why are we not hearing anything in support of the McCanns from them? Curious.
yes, you raise a very interesting point. I find the fact that we only hear from the family and no-one else strange too.

[glezell]

What do you think of the possibility that the car rented was previously rented by someone else in the party but had shared access with the McCann's. After that other family went home after their holiday, the McCann's then took over the rental of the car. yes, THEY did not rent the car until 25 days later, but had access to it???? Possible I guess....

[Zelda]

Message board has a good description of the Tapas 9 people, adults and children.
Well worth reading.

[patti54]

Anyone else following the many interviews that Philomena McCann has been doing? (a very vocally supportive family member that is often referred to as "Aunty Phil") Some of the things she says, as she flits from one interview after another, are almost comedic in nature, but this case isn't something to be made light of. She's regaled the cadaver dogs along the lines of "Lassie"... she's said Gerry told her not to antagonize the Portuguese, but then went on to call the PJ imbeciles (nothing says "NOT antogonzing them" like calling the PJ imbeciles)... and one that had me shaking my head at her, she said: "the police shouldnt be looking at any evidence that implicates Kate and Gerry".

Seriously... why are the McCann's allowing this lady to speak for them? She's doing them more harm than good... and as each day passes and she engages in more interviews, the more crazier she sounds. Team McCann needs to seriously put a muzzle on her...

Kind of reminds me of crazy Auntie Pam from the JonBenet Ramsey case.

[CaliKid]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481124&in_page_id=1811

Catholic Church in PDL to be searched for Madeleine

Also heard that police moved into the villa that the McCanns just vacated looking for more evidence

[CaliKid]

Kind of reminds me of crazy Auntie Pam from the JonBenet Ramsey case.

This woman is a menace to her family. I truly think she is reveling in the fame.

[ThoughtFox]

Does anyone find it strange that we really haven't heard much from their friends and co-workers. I know in the hospital I worked in we were like a big family. We were there for each other through the good annd the bad. Why are we not hearing anything in support of the McCanns from them? Curious.

In England, isn't it by law that people don't talk publically about court cases the way we do here? And it sounds like the other doctors who knew this family were a close group, and alot of them were in Portugal with the McCanns. Although, surely some of their coworkers have spoken out over the last year.

The obvious reason for not saying anything would be that people don't want to be involved in a possible murder case. And the other families they were with in Portugal definitely fear they could become suspects.

[Shazza]

Dont know if this has already been posted but just got home and saw this and posted it before I caught up on reading.

Portugal Police to take the children from the McCanns.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=269533

[poco]

Dont know if this has already been posted but just got home and saw this and posted it before I caught up on reading.

Portugal Police to take the children from the McCanns.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=269533

I just read this a few minutes ago and am, once again, totally confused, especially in regards to this comment:

However, Portugal's national police chief Alipio Ribeiro suggested that the forensic tests had not been conclusive.

"We can't say with certainty whether it was the blood of person 'A' or person 'B,"' Ribeiro told Portuguese state Broadcaster RPT.

"They help guide us in our investigation but not with the mathematical precision some people are saying."

Yesterday, they were 100% certain in regards to the DNA, now they are inconclusive - WTF???????????

It's pretty hard to sleuth when you only get part of the information or the WRONG information.

I'm still a fence sitter at this point, simply because of all the mixed media reports; not sure what to believe as truth or speculation.

[poco]

I just read this a few minutes ago and am, once again, totally confused, especially in regards to this comment:

However, Portugal's national police chief Alipio Ribeiro suggested that the forensic tests had not been conclusive.

"We can't say with certainty whether it was the blood of person 'A' or person 'B,"' Ribeiro told Portuguese state Broadcaster RPT.

"They help guide us in our investigation but not with the mathematical precision some people are saying."

Yesterday, they were 100% certain in regards to the DNA, now they are inconclusive - WTF???????????

It's pretty hard to sleuth when you only get part of the information or the WRONG information.

I'm still a fence sitter at this point, simply because of all the mixed media reports; not sure what to believe as truth or speculation.

Something is going on here - first it is her DNA, now they can't say with certainty. I'm tending to believe they (PJ) are trying to keep as closed mouth about this investigation as they can at this point, but leaks are getting out. Possibly they are hot on the tracks of the McCann's and don't want them to realize it as yet. Who the heck knows.

[Shazza]

Something is going on here - first it is her DNA, now they can't say with certainty. I'm tending to believe they (PJ) are trying to keep as closed mouth about this investigation as they can at this point, but leaks are getting out. Possibly they are hot on the tracks of the McCann's and don't want them to realize it as yet. Who the heck knows.
Poco, it is all so confusing, but they are suppose to be handing all their paperwork to the prosecutor who will determine whether there is enough information to take this case to court. I personally dont think we have heard everything the P LE have, will have to wait to see if the prosecutor thinks there is enough to charge the parents and go to court.

[MrsG728]

Dont know if this has already been posted but just got home and saw this and posted it before I caught up on reading.

Portugal Police to take the children from the McCanns.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=269533 Thanks Shazza.
There are a few versions of this article, but the most damning and interesting part is right here:



"The traces are part of lengthy dossier of evidence which Portuguese police have been preparing. Britain's Channel 4 news reported that it included intercepted emails and transcripts from phone calls the McCanns made to others.
It has been suggested that the DNA may have come from Madeleine's favourite stuffed toy - Cuddle Cat - that Kate McCann carried around for months after the disappearance."

There's a lot more than we know in that dossier.

MG

[angarella]

What do you think of the possibility that the car rented was previously rented by someone else in the party but had shared access with the McCann's. After that other family went home after their holiday, the McCann's then took over the rental of the car. yes, THEY did not rent the car until 25 days later, but had access to it???? Possible I guess....

IMO, that is exactly what happened.

[Shazza]

Thanks Shazza.
There are a few versions of this article, but the most damning and interesting part is right here:



"The traces are part of lengthy dossier of evidence which Portuguese police have been preparing. Britain's Channel 4 news reported that it included intercepted emails and transcripts from phone calls the McCanns made to others.
It has been suggested that the DNA may have come from Madeleine's favourite stuffed toy - Cuddle Cat - that Kate McCann carried around for months after the disappearance."

There's a lot more than we know in that dossier.

MG
MrsG728, I totally agree about us not having all the information, there are facts in that dossier we have not heard about.

[poco]

I was under the impression that the CAR was, in fact, previously rented by a member(s) of their party. I am wondering if the car "boot" was where Maddy was initially placed.

I am also wondering if, when that car was returned and the McCann's went back to rent a car if they requested that car in particular - that would be of great interest to me, and I'm sure the PJ already know the answer to this one.

What a coincidence that they would get the EXACT same car???!!!!

[Barnaby]

I think that Madeleines body was removed in that car before dinner that night when the McCanns were not being observed not 25 days later. Either Gerry borrowed it from the friend who had it or the friend drove the body away. The fact that the McCanns were being watched & could not have hidden the body later is a total smokescreen.

[patti54]

Does anyone know what time Maddie was actually seen by a credible witness? As far as I can tell, the only account of Maddie being alive was from a witness who heard her (assuming it was not one of the twins) crying for 75 minutes on the night prior to the disappearance.

[gord]

Does anyone know what time Maddie was actually seen by a credible witness? As far as I can tell, the only account of Maddie being alive was from a witness who heard her (assuming it was not one of the twins) crying for 75 minutes on the night prior to the disappearance.


I think it has been established that the group all saw Madeline alive at about 7.00pm that night as she was going back to be settled in for the night - The kids all tended to play /get fed together before the adults went out -

I will try and find a link - hence as I said earlier it would have been fairy hard for Madeline to have beem murdered and moved to a very safe place in that 45 minute to an hour time frame before the Mcanns arrived at the restaurant

[gord]

On the evening of May 3, the last moment when Madeleine was definitely seen alive by anybody other than the McCanns was at about 7pm as the group put their children to bed.

taken from

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece

[colomom]

Oh Gord, there are so many thing wrong with that article....I can't even begin to pick it apart.

[gord]

Oh Gord, there are so many thing wrong with that article....I can't even begin to pick it apart.

the times is generall accepted as being less sensational and circumspect than say our tabloid papers such as the mirror and the sun -

I am not saying it is verbatim - just giving the contex to my thoughts to avoid total specualtion

[Edwards20]

the times is generall accepted as being less sensational and circumspect than say our tabloid papers such as the mirror and the sun -

I am not saying it is verbatim - just giving the contex to my thoughts to avoid total specualtion
Gord, I would be interested in your thoughts on all the media outlets reporting. This has been a lot of my problem ... not knowing who/what is reputable.

[colomom]

the times is generall accepted as being less sensational and circumspect than say our tabloid papers such as the mirror and the sun -

I am not saying it is verbatim - just giving the contex to my thoughts to avoid total specualtion

No offense but, the media in the UK, as a whole, is not my primary source of information.

I have found that the Portuguese press has been much more thorough in their reporting.

I read everything, everywhere and then put it all together, with a bit of gut instinct thrown in, and that is how I put together what I believe to be the most plausible theories.

I absolutely do not believe that Madeleine McCann was seen, alive, by someone other than the McCanns, at 7:00PM on May 3rd.

[colomom]

Gord, I would be interested in your thoughts on all the media outlets reporting. This has been a lot of my problem ... not knowing who/what is reputable.

Don't mean to but in on your question Edwards20 but, Jacobean put together a very good overview for us here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52538&page=6

Post # 147

We all found it to be really helpful and accurate.

...butting out now...

[gord]

Gord, I would be interested in your thoughts on all the media outlets reporting. This has been a lot of my problem ... not knowing who/what is reputable.

well over here the general rule of thumb is to take all what the papers report with a pinch of salt

but in general

The Mail , The Mirror , The Sun and Express are tabloids and in the whole never let thr truth get in the way of a good story - they go for the most sensationilst angle - they want to sell more copies

The broadsheets such as the Times , Telegraph , and Guardian tend to check their sources a bit more and be less sensational - hence I would take a lot more credence from the Times than say the Mail

[jacobean]

Personally, i dont trust any media. I dont think it matters which country it comes from. I dont think Portuguese press are any better or worse than reports from UK, Dutch, US or anywhere else for that matter. Ofcourse, we can only go on what we have access to, which unfortunately are press articles/ reports, so thats where we start, but i take every article i read with a pinch of salt, dont care which country it originates from. I believe in instincts, mine and i think many others, smelled something funky in the parents story from the beginning, and my lurking on various threads here has taught me that alot of posters esp the veterans and heavy users have really good instincts and they're often right about alot of stuff so i prefer to read the posts and the opinion before i read the article (thats maybe a bit backwards to some people), i find thats easier for me to see the article in its true light as im probably a bit naieve when it comes to these things (although im learnin fast!)

[gord]

No offense but, the media in the UK, as a whole, is not my primary source of information.

I have found that the Portuguese press has been much more thorough in their reporting.

I read everything, everywhere and then put it all together, with a bit of gut instinct thrown in, and that is how I put together what I believe to be the most plausible theories.

I absolutely do not believe that Madeleine McCann was seen, alive, by someone other than the McCanns, at 7:00PM on May 3rd.

I have no real way of knowing for sure - I would agree that it can be dangerous to believe everything in any of the newspapers . I am sure that both can have misleading articles

I did read somewhere that the routine the kids had was they played and ate together before bed time - maube the 3rd of May was different . But I suppose that if the PJ havent yet solved the case then it is going to be a bit more difficult sitting in front of a PC

I just find it very hard to believe that the body could have been hidden so well in say even a timeline of 1.5 hours - bearing in mind that this is the biggest manhunt in Portugal history

if I am going over old ground sorry - although I have read a lot - I probably havent read every post

[colomom]

I just find it very hard to believe that the body could have been hidden so well in say even a timeline of 1.5 hours - bearing in mind that this is the biggest manhunt in Portugal history

if I am going over old ground sorry - although I have read a lot - I probably havent read every post

Please accept my apologies if I came across as trying to imply that you should read every post. I believe that "going over old ground" is absolutely necessary when trying to sleuth a case such as this.

I was just offering a suggestion (searching for my posts) that would point you in the direction of some information that you may not have considered or even been aware of.

Alot of my explanations on how she could have been hidden, very well, in a very short period of time comes from information we have been given by one of our members who was in Praia da Luz within the last couple of weeks. You might find those details of the surroundings to be very interesting.

[CaliKid]

On the evening of May 3, the last moment when Madeleine was definitely seen alive by anybody other than the McCanns was at about 7pm as the group put their children to bed.

taken from

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece

This is the same stuff we've been reading all summer. You pick almost any newspaper from the UK to read and it will say how the McCanns are innocent and the Portuguese are trying to smear them with "vicious lies and rumors".

The UK has a vested interest is this not being Kate and Gerry. For one thing, high-ranking politicians have publicly come out in their support, and they would look completely stupid to be proven wrong. Second, many Britons have bought the whole "McCanns are victims" point of view (stoked by the media, of course) and refuse to let go. And third, they would much rather the perp be some foreign kidnapper than two of their own, and middle-class doctors at that.

Take anything you read with a grain of salt.

[colomom]

Jacobean put together a very good overview for us here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52538&page=6

Post # 147


To go along with this I just received this information from one of our Portuguese friends on another board:

Colomom - I'll try to assess the portuguese newspapers, but it'll always be my opinion only, ok?

The most reliable of all sources would be Lusa, the central newsagency for Portugal. But they are no newspaper; they are just the main source for the media in general.

Let's start with the more 'serious' side of the scale, which would be Expresso (a weekly) and Publico (daily). They have devoted very little of their editions to the Madeleine case, and usually it's very 'dry' stuff. Circumspect & reliable.

Sol is a respectful weekly, in fact an offspring of Expresso and its closest competitor. The coverage from Sol has been more intense, but you'll have to distinguish between 'investigative' reports from Felicia Cabrita and news articles, which will cover the stuff they get from Lusa. Controversial in a well founded way.

At the center of the scale, there are dailys Diario de Noticias, Jornal de Noticias and Correio da Manha. CM is the most sold daily newspaper in Portugal. It is usually a bit 'popular' in a sense that it does cater for the 'masses', but they have built a reputation, over recent years, of having good police sources. Diario de Noticias & Jornal de Noticias belong to the same group, and they are in fact very similar. JN is mainly read in the North area of Portugal, while DN is maily read by the South. They are not very different from Correio da Manha, although they pretend to look more 'serious'. These three are the most popular papers and it shows. Exciting, but not tabloid style.

Then at the other end there is 24Horas. The closest thing that Portugal has to a tabloid - but they are mere apprentices when compared to what I've seen in the Sun, for example. Don't believe everything they print, I would advise. Saucy and mostly exaggerated.

[ceeaura]

To go along with this I just received this nformation from one of our Portuguese friends on another board:

Colomom - I'll try to assess the portuguese newspapers, but it'll always be my opinion only, ok?

The most reliable of all sources would be Lusa, the central newsagency for Portugal. But they are no newspaper; they are just the main source for the media in general.

Let's start with the more 'serious' side of the scale, which would be Expresso (a weekly) and Publico (daily). They have devoted very little of their editions to the Madeleine case, and usually it's very 'dry' stuff. Circumspect & reliable.

Sol is a respectful weekly, in fact an offspring of Expresso and its closest competitor. The coverage from Sol has been more intense, but you'll have to distinguish between 'investigative' reports from Felicia Cabrita and news articles, which will cover the stuff they get from Lusa. Controversial in a well founded way.

At the center of the scale, there are dailys Diario de Noticias, Jornal de Noticias and Correio da Manha. CM is the most sold daily newspaper in Portugal. It is usually a bit 'popular' in a sense that it does cater for the 'masses', but they have built a reputation, over recent years, of having good police sources. Diario de Noticias & Jornal de Noticias belong to the same group, and they are in fact very similar. JN is mainly read in the North area of Portugal, while DN is maily read by the South. They are not very different from Correio da Manha, although they pretend to look more 'serious'. These three are the most popular papers and it shows. Exciting, but not tabloid style.

Then at the other end there is 24Horas. The closest thing that Portugal has to a tabloid - but they are mere apprentices when compared to what I've seen in the Sun, for example. Don't believe everything they print, I would advise. Saucy and mostly exaggerated.

This is great information colomom!!Tell our Portuguese friends from the other board thank you!!This going to help so much on the Portuguese news media reports.

You are great!:blowkiss: Thanks sooo much!

[poco]

The DNA of Madeleine McCann has been found in a car that was hired by her parents, although the DNA was previously thought to have come from the blood of Madeleine, it is now believed that the DNA came from other body fluids from Madeleine.

According to sources, the DNA has a 88% match to the missing Madeleine’s DNA.

Also found in the boot of this car that was hired by her parents was some hair of the missing four year old.

http://www.product-reviews.net/2007/09/11/madeleine-mccanns-body-fluid-dna-found-in-car-hired-by-her-parents/

[Betsy]

Where did they get a sample of Maddie's DNA to use as a comparison, I wonder....

[colomom]

This is great information colomom!!Tell our Portuguese friends from the other board thank you!!This going to help so much on the Portuguese news media reports.

You are great!:blowkiss: Thanks sooo much!

Ahhhhh, shucks. No prob! I will pass on your thanks.

BTW, I posted all of this information on the Media links thread so we can always find it.

[wtsn5]

Where did they get a sample of Maddie's DNA to use as a comparison, I wonder....


I asked the same question in the another section but have had no reply. i would love to know the answer to that as well.

[SewingDeb]

Since Maddie was an IVF baby was an amnio done during Kate's pregnancy? Other sources could be her toothbrush and hairbrush.

[Betsy]

Since Maddie was an IVF baby was an amnio done during Kate's pregnancy? Other sources could be her toothbrush and hairbrush.

Interesting thought, SewingDeb. I'm not sure using her tooth brush or hairbrush would be reliable; I have small children and they use each other's everything...BUT the amnio is another thought, if she indeed had one.

Does anyone know if the DNA markers are kept as part of a patient's medical record after an amnio?

Other than that, since the twins would still be in diapers I'm assuming, perhaps any of Maddie's dirty underwear could be examined? (Oh my God, it breaks my heart thinking about this...)

[jacobean]

Since Maddie was an IVF baby was an amnio done during Kate's pregnancy? Other sources could be her toothbrush and hairbrush.

Ive done some searches on this, and it seems that amnio is performed for IVF pregnancies or is at least offered. I cant find a source that says how long these results are kept on file for...will keep looking.

What if they have DNA samples from the parents, isnt that also a way to test, like they do for paternity tests?? Maybe ive just been watching too much tv..?

[Edwards20]

the times is generall accepted as being less sensational and circumspect than say our tabloid papers such as the mirror and the sun -

I am not saying it is verbatim - just giving the contex to my thoughts to avoid total specualtion Thank you Gord.


Don't mean to but in on your question Edwards20 but, Jacobean put together a very good overview for us here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52538&page=6

Post # 147

We all found it to be really helpful and accurate.

...butting out now... Thank you dear. No worries, it's a public forum .... so I don't look at replying to any post as a butting in.

well over here the general rule of thumb is to take all what the papers report with a pinch of salt

but in general

The Mail , The Mirror , The Sun and Express are tabloids and in the whole never let thr truth get in the way of a good story - they go for the most sensationilst angle - they want to sell more copies

The broadsheets such as the Times , Telegraph , and Guardian tend to check their sources a bit more and be less sensational - hence I would take a lot more credence from the Times than say the Mail Thank you.

Personally, i dont trust any media. I dont think it matters which country it comes from. I tend to agree with you somewhat on this, since I work for a media outlet.

Where did they get a sample of Maddie's DNA to use as a comparison, I wonder.... I have asked this as well.


Interesting thought, SewingDeb. I'm not sure using her tooth brush or hairbrush would be reliable; I have small children and they use each other's everything That is my thought on taking the DNA from something such as a hairbrush. I would hope the toothbrush was not share (teehee). But, if it's only an 88% perhaps the original sample isn't really Maddie's. That was my point in wondering where the original sample was obtained. I know each person's DNA is as different as a fingerprint, but I would think siblings would have similarities.

Just some random thoughts .........

[Edwards20]

Ive done some searches on this, and it seems that amnio is performed for IVF pregnancies or is at least offered. I cant find a source that says how long these results are kept on file for...will keep looking.

What if they have DNA samples from the parents, isnt that also a way to test, like they do for paternity tests?? Maybe ive just been watching too much tv..?
Ok, this makes me wonder something else. I am assuming that an IVF baby would have a different parent ? Or are they both her biological parents ? Then perhaps the siblings DNA could be quite different.

[wtsn5]

Answering Edwards20 reply to Becky

With a four year old it is hards to get them to understand that sharing or using someone elses toothbrush is just yucky - trust me many fights have been started in my house over whos toothbrush is touching whos.

So again where did the police and the lab get maddies DNA. If they are using the parents or sibilings as a source then the results will definately be flawed. JMHO

[Edwards20]

Answering Edwards20 reply to Becky

With a four year old it is hards to get them to understand that sharing or using someone elses toothbrush is just yucky - trust me many fights have been started in my house over whos toothbrush is touching whos.

I know .... that's why I put (teehee) in my post.

[SewingDeb]

Interesting thought, SewingDeb. I'm not sure using her tooth brush or hairbrush would be reliable; I have small children and they use each other's everything...BUT the amnio is another thought, if she indeed had one.

Does anyone know if the DNA markers are kept as part of a patient's medical record after an amnio?

Other than that, since the twins would still be in diapers I'm assuming, perhaps any of Maddie's dirty underwear could be examined? (Oh my God, it breaks my heart thinking about this...)

I have 4 children so I have to agree about the toothbrush and hairbrush.

It does seem to me that Maddie's DNA markers would be in a file somewhere, if amnio was done. It could have been important if there was ever a lawsuit filed.

I had not thought of the dirty underwear but that is a thought.

[SewingDeb]

Ive done some searches on this, and it seems that amnio is performed for IVF pregnancies or is at least offered. I cant find a source that says how long these results are kept on file for...will keep looking.

What if they have DNA samples from the parents, isnt that also a way to test, like they do for paternity tests?? Maybe ive just been watching too much tv..?

They do take DNA samples from parents to match with bodies. Didn't Kate and Gerry give DNA swabs at some point? I think I remember reading that in an article.

[Betsy]

They do take DNA samples from parents to match with bodies. Didn't Kate and Gerry give DNA swabs at some point? I think I remember reading that in an article.

I think that's more so they can identify the body, should Maddie ever be found. But how would Maddie's DNA be different than her twin siblings' if they are only taking samples from the parents?

[Rhett]

Colomom, I thought I had read all of the posts but I guess not. Could you direct me to the posts from your friend that was in Portugal recently? Thank you. Rhett

[jacobean]

Ok, this makes me wonder something else. I am assuming that an IVF baby would have a different parent ? Or are they both her biological parents ? Then perhaps the siblings DNA could be quite different.

Hi Edwards20 - sorry took me a while to answer....had to go searching....apparently, it depends on the reason for infertility, the process of ivf is combining the sperm and egg outside of the womb, so you can use a donor or not depending on why you need the ivf in the first place....

I found this info at the link below, i dont know a thing about ivf so i found it quite interesting....

https://simplyivf.com/In-Vitro_101.html

[Rhett]

Also, I just read the latest on the thread translated from the Portugal news. In the piece it mentions that the cadaver dog hit upon a trail in the cupboard. I have heard this mentioned before and wondered what is a cupboard in this instance? Could someone answer that for me?

[jacobean]

They do take DNA samples from parents to match with bodies. Didn't Kate and Gerry give DNA swabs at some point? I think I remember reading that in an article.

Hi SewingDeb! Im sure i saw it somewhere in one of the earlier threads, but i cant find it in all the links - they also tested the straw on the drink from the little girl in Belgium so they must have had a source for comparison quite early on, i checked the DNA thread but didnt see anything about this particularly...

[pinto]

Also, I just read the latest on the thread translated from the Portugal news. In the piece it mentions that the cadaver dog hit upon a trail in the cupboard. I have heard this mentioned before and wondered what is a cupboard in this instance? Could someone answer that for me?

I believe it's what Americans would call a closet.

[glezell]

Ok, this makes me wonder something else. I am assuming that an IVF baby would have a different parent ? Or are they both her biological parents ? Then perhaps the siblings DNA could be quite different.

Ok, I have done two IVF/ICSI (injecting the sperm into the egg), so lets see if I can answer some questions...

Just because you have IVF, does not mean you have the need for an amnio any more than the general population. Depends on your reason for doing the IVF. If you have genetic issues (family historys of genetic problems or genetic problems that are inconsistent with being able to fertilize an egg or continue growing an embryo, downs, trisomy 18, etc) then you would be more likely to have an amnio, if you so chose. Alot of time, when you do an IVF and have genetic issues you can do pregenetic testing. They can take one cell of an embryo and test it before transferring it back to the uterus, making an amnio less necessary. otherwise, an IVF pregnancy is treated as a regular pregnancy and it in itself does not elevate a pregnancy to high risk.

IVF does NOT mean that you did not use each spouses egg/sperm. My husband and I both did. It depends again why you are doing IVF. I didn't ovulate, but my eggs are fine, so we just bypass the ovulation issue with ivf. Donor comes in when woman does not produce eggs or are not a good quality or when a man has no sperm or his sperm cannot fertilize an egg, or neither can conceive and both are donated or embryos themselves are donated.

Hope that cleared it up some....

ETA:

(Not that it relates to the case, but just an interesting tidbit)

Madeleine and the twins could have even been created during the same IVF. If there were left over embryos from Madeliene's ivf, they could have been frozen and used to conceive the twins. They would be no more than siblings and DNA no more similar, just a interesting dynamic of IVF.

[BethInAK]

I think that Madeleines body was removed in that car before dinner that night when the McCanns were not being observed not 25 days later. Either Gerry borrowed it from the friend who had it or the friend drove the body away. The fact that the McCanns were being watched & could not have hidden the body later is a total smokescreen.


if all the doors were left open, presumably so they could check on the kids, then he would be able to just go get the keys and take the car.

[BethInAK]

They can take DNA from the parents and figure out of the DNA in the car is the child of the parents. They could also take dna from the twins and see if its the same as the dna in the car and show that its not theirs.

more simply, they take a hair from madeleines pillow.

[Betsy]

They can take DNA from the parents and figure out of the DNA in the car is the child of the parents. They could also take dna from the twins and see if its the same as the dna in the car and show that its not theirs.

more simply, they take a hair from madeleines pillow.


Right, and that's why I'm wondering if they indeed did get to obtain DNA from the twins. That would be the only way to truly say the DNA was Maddie's, after ruling out the other family members.

The pillow wouldn't be a reliable sample, at least in my house. My kids use each other's pillows all the time (usually to hit the other one with.....)

I wonder if that's another reason to get the twins out of dodge--to not comply with a DNA sample request?

[Edwards20]

Interesting thoughts .... so it can be the sperm/egg of the parents or there could be donors ?

How DID we conclude that Maddie was an IVF baby ?

How do we conclude that both donors are her parents ?

..... just some random thoughts.

[glezell]

Interesting thoughts .... so it can be the sperm/egg of the parents or there could be donors ?

How DID we conclude that Maddie was an IVF baby ?

How do we conclude that both donors are her parents ?

..... just some random thoughts.


options are either 1. both their sperm/egg used, 2. her egg/donor sperm, 3. his sperm/donor egg, 4. donor embryos. If they are donor (any manner), Maddie and the twins could have different donors or could be the same, depending on situation...

[colomom]

Colomom, I thought I had read all of the posts but I guess not. Could you direct me to the posts from your friend that was in Portugal recently? Thank you. Rhett

Hi Rhett,

Her username is MoonGoddess and she does not post alot. If you search you will see 4 or 5 recent posts that give alot of details.

I also did some back and forth yesterday on the "Damning Proof Found" thread, first few pages. I gave some more info there...

Let me know if you have specific questions, I'll try and find an answer for you.

[englishleigh]

options are either 1. both their sperm/egg used, 2. her egg/donor sperm, 3. his sperm/donor egg, 4. donor embryos. If they are donor (any manner), Maddie and the twins could have different donors or could be the same, depending on situation...

I think Madeleine was their natural child, both of theirs, however she was concieved, she looked like BOTH Kate and Gerry, IMO.

[Edwards20]

I think Madeleine was their natural child, both of theirs, however she was concieved, she looked like BOTH Kate and Gerry, IMO. Thanks. I thought the initial post about the IVF was leading to Gerry not being her natural father.

[ceeaura]

Ok, I have done two IVF/ICSI (injecting the sperm into the egg), so lets see if I can answer some questions...

Just because you have IVF, does not mean you have the need for an amnio any more than the general population. Depends on your reason for doing the IVF. If you have genetic issues (family historys of genetic problems or genetic problems that are inconsistent with being able to fertilize an egg or continue growing an embryo, downs, trisomy 18, etc) then you would be more likely to have an amnio, if you so chose. Alot of time, when you do an IVF and have genetic issues you can do pregenetic testing. They can take one cell of an embryo and test it before transferring it back to the uterus, making an amnio less necessary. otherwise, an IVF pregnancy is treated as a regular pregnancy and it in itself does not elevate a pregnancy to high risk.

IVF does NOT mean that you did not use each spouses egg/sperm. My husband and I both did. It depends again why you are doing IVF. I didn't ovulate, but my eggs are fine, so we just bypass the ovulation issue with ivf. Donor comes in when woman does not produce eggs or are not a good quality or when a man has no sperm or his sperm cannot fertilize an egg, or neither can conceive and both are donated or embryos themselves are donated.

Hope that cleared it up some....

ETA:

(Not that it relates to the case, but just an interesting tidbit)

Madeleine and the twins could have even been created during the same IVF. If there were left over embryos from Madeliene's ivf, they could have been frozen and used to conceive the twins. They would be no more than siblings and DNA no more similar, just a interesting dynamic of IVF.

glezell:
options are either 1. both their sperm/egg used, 2. her egg/donor sperm, 3. his sperm/donor egg, 4. donor embryos. If they are donor (any manner), Maddie and the twins could have different donors or could be the same, depending on situation...

Thanks for posting the above glezell.Helped me understand a lot more :)

[colomom]

Here is the DNA question answer....IMHO.

Early on it was reported that the PJ found "mystery DNA" in the apartment...remember? I could search for a link if you'd like, but trust me on this one.

Therefore, obviously the PJ swabbed the parents and the twins, ran DNA tests on other "samples" (hair, toothbrush, swab of the creepy cat, etc.) and through the process of elimination were left with DNA from Maddie. It was probably run through a maternal DNA comparison and Voila!!!

Believe me when I tell you that the British Police have been working VERY closely with the PJ on this case (an example is given in this article: http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=brit-police-watch-and-listenfrom-the-room-next-door&method=full&objectid=19758723&siteid=93463-name_page.html) and the DNA testing that was done in Birmingham (reportedly the best lab in the world) was done under the most careful process possible.

No one wants an international incident to happen because of shoddy investigations. Definitely, not the PJ and especially not the British Police. Also when I say British police I do not mean just any police, it was reported that Scotland Yard sent LE to PDL.

[Edwards20]

I am trying so hard to remain neutral here, but it is getting harder and harder by the moment. I don't want the media to tell me what the think, etc. I want the facts .... I am having to agree that even though not all of this might be factual, something has to be remotely close. They have to have something, huh ?

[docwho3]

If the parents did any sort of crime then the pressure on them must seem unbearable. I think there needs to be a suicide watch kept on them by L.E. I am concerned one or both of them may crack and even the remaining children might be in danger if that happens.

[colomom]

I am trying so hard to remain neutral here, but it is getting harder and harder by the moment. I don't want the media to tell me what the think, etc. I want the facts .... I am having to agree that even though not all of this might be factual, something has to be remotely close. They have to have something, huh ?

HAS to be Edwards20...exactamundo!!!

1000 pages compiled and forwarded to the Ministry of Justice....HAS to be.

I think if people would step back and look at this case in the "big picture" they would see....HAS to be.

Just my opinion, of course :D

[Edwards20]

HAS to be Edwards20...exactamundo!!!

1000 pages compiled and forwarded to the Ministry of Justice....HAS to be.

I think if people would step back and look at this case in the "big picture" they would see....HAS to be.

Just my opinion, of course :D
I am still not ready to crucify them, but there seems to be SOMETHING there.

[angarella]

"Creepy cat". LMAO ColoMom! :D

[poco]

"Creepy cat". LMAO ColoMom! :D

Just sitting here thinking...... (do that sometimes). Anyway, IF the parents (mother probably) are charged with Maddie's death, I believe, from would I have been reading, she would be charged with an accidental death, not murder.

In any event, how much time would you possibly get for something like that? I mean they were supposedly willing to give her 2 years in the beginning if she came clean - what would it be up it to now, 3 years??????

[colomom]

Just sitting here thinking...... (do that sometimes). Anyway, IF the parents (mother probably) are charged with Maddie's death, I believe, from would I have been reading, she would be charged with an accidental death, not murder.

In any event, how much time would you possibly get for something like that? I mean they were supposedly willing to give her 2 years in the beginning if she came clean - what would it be up it to now, 3 years??????

But then I suppose you would have to add a charge for hiding a body, maybe abuse of a corpse (if it was moved around or tossed off a cliff), maybe fraud, maybe theft, maybe child neglect or child abuse, conspiracy, maybe a charge for being just plain stoopid...

You know how those prosecuting attorneys are they will pile it on just to make sure something sticks.

[poco]

But then I suppose you would have to add a charge for hiding a body, maybe abuse of a corpse (if it was moved around or tossed off a cliff), maybe fraud, maybe theft, maybe child neglect or child abuse, conspiracy, maybe a charge for being just plain stoopid...

You know how those prosecuting attorneys are they will pile it on just to make sure something sticks.

Yeah, but what ticks me off about it all is that even through all this - all the lies, deceit and whatever else you said above - is that IF IT IS PROVEN THEY (the parents) DID IT, they won't serve enough time, IMO.

[colomom]

Also, I just read the latest on the thread translated from the Portugal news. In the piece it mentions that the cadaver dog hit upon a trail in the cupboard. I have heard this mentioned before and wondered what is a cupboard in this instance? Could someone answer that for me?

I believe it's what Americans would call a closet.

I found this site (http://www.bookmyvillas.com/villadetails.asp?villaid=10002) awhile back and we all agreed that this is the exact apartment that the Mccann's rented (note: 5A).

In the description it mentions: "various cleaning materials in the sink cupboard."

So from this picture (also on this site):

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/10002_6.jpg

I would think that the cupboard would be those cabinets under the kitchen counter/sink. My other thought was that they might be referring to a wardrobe (the tall cabinet just outside the kitchen) as a cupboard.

I really believe it is one or the other.

[Jdee]

From Sky News.... Breaking News.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/home
"The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object"

Wonder what this is?

[colomom]

Yeah, but what ticks me off about it all is that even through all this - all the lies, deceit and whatever else you said above - is that IF IT IS PROVEN THEY (the parents) DID IT, they won't serve enough time, IMO.

You might be right BUT since they may be serving time in Portugal perhaps the prisons there would be like those in Midnight Express....remember?

no tule, no tule :eek:

So maybe even short time could be hard time....

I would bet that the women in a Portuguese prison would make life for Kate quite miserable....

BTW, I did a Google search for portuguese women's prison (under images) and look what shows up on the first page:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/images.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[colomom]

From Sky News.... Breaking News.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/home
"The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object"

Wonder what this is?

Computer hard drive???

[englishleigh]

From Sky News.... Breaking News.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/home
"The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object"

Wonder what this is?

Cuddle Cat? FINALLY?

No, I guess it would have to be something still in Portugal, unless he's going to have the British LE get it.

Hmmm..

[Jdee]

:laugh: OMG you just threw me over the edge with laughter! THat poor 'darn cat'!

[Jdee]

I was thinking more along the lines of some sort of bag.... as everyone keeps talking about her stuffed in a bag....

[colomom]

Cuddle Cat? FINALLY?

No, I guess it would have to be something still in Portugal, unless he's going to have the British LE get it.

Hmmm..

I can't imagine what else they could get from that darn cat, they already got cadaver scent documented...:waitasec:

[colomom]

:laugh: OMG you just threw me over the edge with laughter! THat poor 'darn cat'!

Hahaha, great minds...Jdee!

[englishleigh]

I was thinking more along the lines of some sort of bag.... as everyone keeps talking about her stuffed in a bag....

Oooooh...yeah. Something they feel her body was contained in. Good one, JDee!!

[Texana]

Cuddle Cat? FINALLY?

No, I guess it would have to be something still in Portugal, unless he's going to have the British LE get it.

Hmmm..

Please, please, make it be the cat!

[BethInAK]

From Sky News.... Breaking News.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/home
"The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object"

Wonder what this is?


Creepy Cat.

[peace9274]

As usual, I mainly just read here, pondering over and absorbing the fabulous posts, with all the facts.... and your mind-boggling theories, that make me go "HmmMMMmmm".

But now that the parents of Maddie are suspects, I just want to say that ever since I first saw Madeleine's photo, several months ago, my first thoughts were that she doesn't/didn't look like a happy child. Her flat affect, (even with the smiles), her pale cheeks, and her eyes that don't sparkle reminded me of Lisa Steinberg. (Lisa was the daughter of Hedda Nussbaum and Joel Steinberg.... abused and killed by her daddy, Joel.)

I've had a gut feeling that there was some sort of emotional or possibly physical abuse hidden somewhere behind those sad eyes.

Has anyone else felt this? FWIW, I've been a psych nurse for 25 + yrs and have worked with children of all ages, newborns - adolescents and beyond, including those with battered child syndrome.
Maddie just seems to have that look/expression... to me.

[colomom]

As usual, I mainly just read here, pondering over and absorbing the fabulous posts, with all the facts.... and your mind-boggling theories, that make me go "HmmMMMmmm".

But now that the parents of Maddie are suspects, I just want to say that ever since I first saw Madeleine's photo, several months ago, my first thoughts were that she doesn't/didn't look like a happy child. Her flat affect, (even with the smiles), her pale cheeks, and her eyes that don't sparkle reminded me of Lisa Steinberg. (Lisa was the daughter of Hedda Nussbaum and Joel Steinberg.... abused and killed by her daddy, Joel.)

I've had a gut feeling that there was some sort of emotional or possibly physical abuse hidden somewhere behind those sad eyes.

Has anyone else felt this? FWIW, I've been a psych nurse for 25 + yrs and have worked with children of all ages, newborns - adolescents and beyond, including those with battered child syndrome.
Maddie just seems to have that look/expression... to me.

I have....especially when I watched this home video of her: http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1283541,.html (just the part at the very start). She does not seem to be a "happy" little girl. She seems unsure...maybe looking for approval....

[sandraladeda]

Get the whole sorry lot - the Tapas 9 - in for questioning - separate them all, and sweat them until they say what they know. Someone knows something! :banghead:

[englishleigh]

Get the whole sorry lot - the Tapas 9 - in for questioning - separate them all, and sweat them until they say what they know. Someone knows something! :banghead:

I agree, Sandra, that the other 7 of the Tapas group need to be forced into questioning. I think they all know something, if not everything!!!!

I bet these friends are wishing they'd never heard of the McCanns....

[KR2tonenow]

Get the whole sorry lot - the Tapas 9 - in for questioning - separate them all, and sweat them until they say what they know. Someone knows something! :banghead:

When they go to trial, they will be (TG)!

[BloodshotEye]

What is it that the Prosecutor wants to seize?

Please, please, make it be the cat!

Texana, that cracks me up! Put me down too, for that disgusting excuse for a cat. Cat? It's a "stuffed petri dish", a seething fomite of pathogens. It is a positive "hit" for cadaver scent, could it get any more disgusting than that?

Other possiblities:
1. I like Colomom's suggestion of a hard drive. Perhaps they were emailing their attorney, via the resort's little business services area. A lot of hotels now have a computers for the convenience of their guests. Good one, Colomom.

2. The Scenic (car for hire).

3. Some piece of luggage, or the trolly cart(s) used to push the children around (might be owned by the McCanns or made available by the resort).

4. Night stand or drawer, in which the PJ was reported to have found a dispensing syringe containing a sedative. It may have leaked some trace, into the night stand drawer.

5. Linens. I'm thinking either bed linens, specifically a pillow case.

[guineveer]

And why wouldn't she call the police from the apartment, instead of running back to the restaurant? or go to a neighbor?

Why doesn't anyone call the police for another 40 minutes when "They've taken her!" is the first words out of Kate's mouth?

It was reported that because they didn't speak Portuguese, the front desk was used to phone the police for translation purposes. Completely understandable. Also, the officers that initially arrived on scene likewise didn't speak English and translation was needed again from the resort staff.

I can't remember reading how long it was before the initial phone call was made? But I do remember that they looked for Madeleine around the resort first before calling (especially since she had wandered off previously?) I'm sure they were frantic, but hoping she would turn up safe in the resort compound within minutes.

[Barnaby]

I have....especially when I watched this home video of her: http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1283541,.html (just the part at the very start). She does not seem to be a "happy" little girl. She seems unsure...maybe looking for approval....
i thought that from the start, it looks like someone is giving out to her!

Latest news police have applied to sieze an unknown item! Maybe the car who knows!

[colomom]

I agree, Sandra, that the other 7 of the Tapas group need to be forced into questioning. I think they all know something, if not everything!!!!

I bet these friends are wishing they'd never heard of the McCanns....

I just wanted to let you know that I think you are freakin' awesome to make your signature American Flags...you are an awesome person....and a friend forever.

I love you Leigh.

Thank you for remembering us....on this so terrible of anniversaries.

[englishleigh]

I just wanted to let you know that I think you are freakin' awesome to make your signature American Flags...you are an awesome person....and a friend forever.

I love you Leigh.

Thank you for remembering us....on this so terrible of anniversaries.

Awww, Heather, you're going to make me cry!!!

Thank you. I love you, too!!

YOU are the awesome person for all your hard work here!!! :blowkiss:

Oh, and by the way, I am American, too. =) I'm just a huge Anglophile.

[CaliKid]

As usual, I mainly just read here, pondering over and absorbing the fabulous posts, with all the facts.... and your mind-boggling theories, that make me go "HmmMMMmmm".

But now that the parents of Maddie are suspects, I just want to say that ever since I first saw Madeleine's photo, several months ago, my first thoughts were that she doesn't/didn't look like a happy child. Her flat affect, (even with the smiles), her pale cheeks, and her eyes that don't sparkle reminded me of Lisa St