Cuddle Cat (and Other Obvious Lies)

[englishleigh]

OK, we all agree that Kate's assertion to the PJ that the reason Cuddle Cat had a cadaver scent on it, as well as her clothing, was that she is a doctor and she was around dead bodies right before coming to Portugal, and that she often took Cuddle Cat to work with her....was utter BS.

What other obvious or possible lies have there been? Any? The fact that the children were checked on every several minutes when the Tapas staff says no one ever left the table that night comes to mind.

This is the thread for LISTING THE LIES or the stories that don't wash.

[Shazza]

They lied about how far the restaurant was away from their apartment, they lied about sedating their children, there are so many I cannot process them all but am sure other posters will come up with plenty more.

[L L & S]

They lied about how far the restaurant was away from their apartment, they lied about sedating their children, there are so many I cannot process them all but am sure other posters will come up with plenty more. Shazz, I'm glad you brought this up. I admit coming into this case late. Two quick quistions......Did they sedate the kids? Were the twins tested? Do we know this 4sure? Every media outlet has a different story and it's so confusing. TIA!

[Shazza]

Shazz, I'm glad you brought this up. I admit coming into this case late. Two quick quistions......Did they sedate the kids? Were the twins tested? Do we know this 4sure? Every media outlet has a different story and it's so confusing. TIA!
Gerry McCann admitted to sedating the children, I dont think the twins were tested. But the words came out of Gerrys mouth so they must be true.

[L L & S]

With WHAT did they sedate the kids? Like a shot of Benedryl, or something stronger?

[Shazza]

With WHAT did they sedate the kids? Like a shot of Benedryl, or something stronger?
I cant remember the name of the drug, there were also syringes found in the bedside drawers, whether they were used for injecting or easier to put into the mouths of children am not sure how or what they were used for, Im sure the P LE have more info on this that they havent made public.
Sorry I cant be of more help LL&S.

[colomom]

The thing that always struck me as a "lie" was the description of the checking of the children, how often and by whom. Check Calikid's timeline and you will see that the version of events we have heard would have the Tapas 9 jumping up and down from the table all evening.

Wonder how they managed to play a trivia game??

:waitasec:

[L L & S]

I cant remember the name of the drug, there were also syringes found in the bedside drawers, whether they were used for injecting or easier to put into the mouths of children am not sure how or what they were used for, Im sure the P LE have more info on this that they havent made public.
Sorry I cant be of more help LL&S. Actually you've been very helpful. It's not easy wrapping my brain around the PJ and their procedures vs our procedures. That would be a good thread, but I am NOT the one to start it.

Peace! http://bestsmileys.com/waving/2.gif

[Shazza]

Actually you've been very helpful. It's not easy wrapping my brain around the PJ and their procedures vs our procedures. That would be a good thread, but I am NOT the one to start it.

Peace! http://bestsmileys.com/waving/2.gif
It is hard to keep up with everything that has and is going on with this case. The Australian procedures would be different again, it could get quite confusing.

[T-Rex]

OK, while I dont' think the McCanns killed their kids, if the cadaver dogs alerted in the Praya de la Luz apartment, then they must have left them alone for more than two hours.

[CaliKid]

According to family members, they claim the children were given Calpol, a pain reliever.

[Shazza]

According to family members, they claim the children were given Calpol, a pain reliever.
Hi CaliKid, do you know if that has to be injected or taken orally. I have never heard of that drug being used here in Australia.

[STEADFAST]

Gerry McCann admitted to sedating the children, I dont think the twins were tested. But the words came out of Gerrys mouth so they must be true.

Didn't he just say that they gave them Calpol? That is not a sedative; it is
a brand name of paracetamol which is known as acetaminophen in the United States. In other words, it is Tylenol. And I don't mean Tylenol PM either. Here's Calpol's web site:
http://www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8 (http://http//www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8)

[Shazza]

Didn't he just say that they gave them Calpol? That is not a sedative; it is
a brand name of paracetamol which is known as acetaminophen in the United States. In other words, it is Tylenol. And I don't mean Tylenol PM either. Here's Calpol's web site:
http://www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8 (http://http//www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8)
As far as I have read the type of drug given hasnt been confirmed.
If their children needed any medication for ill health, IMO they should not have the children alone, their actions dont make sense. I know I would not give my children medicine if they were sick and then go out and leave them alone.

[philamena]

I don't know much about cadaver dogs and what actually leads them to a scent but I'll bet the farm that there is no way in Hades that Maddie's toy had a strange scent on it because of her mother's job. That is ludicrous.

[STEADFAST]

As far as I have read the type of drug given hasnt been confirmed.
If their children needed any medication for ill health, IMO they should not have the children alone, their actions dont make sense. I know I would not give my children medicine if they were sick and then go out and leave them alone.

I haven't seen anything confirming that the children were given a sedative at all, of any kind. No idea where that info came from.

I agree that the children should not have been left alone -- whether they needed Tylenol or not. It's completely selfish and irresponsible, and here in the U.S. also against the law. Don't know about Portugal.

I guess my thing is, I don't admire the McCann's and I don't think they have likeable personalities, and I think they certainly contributed to this situation by their neglect. But I just haven't been convinced that they killed their daughter and disposed of her body. Much of the suspicion surrounding them is based on speculation and exaggeration as far as I can tell. (Now, what the suspicions of PJ are based on, I'd love to know -- that could change my mind for sure.)

[BloodshotEye]

Kate's explanation of why the cadaver dog "hit" on the stuffed cat, is probably one of those elements in this case, that caused the PJ to look at her statements very carefully.

1. She stated (in so many words) that the toy is Maddie's favorite.
2. And yet, who takes the toy to their workplace? Kate. Beyond creepy.
3. She is a part-time GP. And yet it has been reported that she indicated she had contact with more than one cadaver. Maybe she should stop telling people she is a GP, and explain that she signs off on death certificates for the hospital morgue.

These "hits", appear to require that Kate stuffs it into the pocket of her jeans (that got a "cadaver hit"), as she makes her rounds as a part-time general practioner, to these cadavers that have been laying around for some time. And THEN, she has to have contact between her jeans and the cadaver.

please. This is beyond ridiculous.

[BloodshotEye]

I know Steadfast...it's hard to believe; but the husband admitted to sedating all three children. The exact drug used, has not been reported yet.

[L L & S]

I don't know much about cadaver dogs and what actually leads them to a scent but I'll bet the farm that there is no way in Hades that Maddie's toy had a strange scent on it because of her mother's job. That is ludicrous.Didn't it sound like a story that she had to make up on the "fly". Silly and unbelievable..... dare I say desperate?

[sherri79]

how is this for a lie. "we will not leave til maddie is found"

[poco]

Kate's explanation of why the cadaver dog "hit" on the stuffed cat, is probably one of those elements in this case, that caused the PJ to look at her statements very carefully.

1. She stated (in so many words) that the toy is Maddie's favorite.
2. And yet, who takes the toy to their workplace? Kate. Beyond creepy.
3. She is a part-time GP. And yet it has been reported that she indicated she had contact with more than one cadaver. Maybe she should stop telling people she is a GP, and explain that she signs off on death certificates for the hospital morgue.

These "hits", appear to require that Kate stuffs it into the pocket of her jeans (that got a "cadaver hit"), as she makes her rounds as a part-time general practioner, to these cadavers that have been laying around for some time. And THEN, she has to have contact between her jeans and the cadaver.

please. This is beyond ridiculous.

LOL good one! How many GP's are actually around cadavers???? Give me a break!

[poco]

This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script

[aussie_mum]

This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script

100% agree! Considering she had previously left the apartment and she was a 3 year old, first thoughts would have been that she had left again and they should find her before she got hit by a car or found her way to the ocean. Even a "Someone's taken her!" But they???

Ummmm just had a crazy thought.... you don't suppose she could have been offered up to someone in a sexual type way but they were meant to not take her she was meant to stay in the appartment.... and when she was yelling that she knew who 'they' were.

[lizziedripping]

OK, we all agree that Kate's assertion to the PJ that the reason Cuddle Cat had a cadaver scent on it, as well as her clothing, was that she is a doctor and she was around dead bodies right before coming to Portugal, and that she often took Cuddle Cat to work with her....was utter BS.

What other obvious or possible lies have there been? Any? The fact that the children were checked on every several minutes when the Tapas staff says no one ever left the table that night comes to mind.

This is the thread for LISTING THE LIES or the stories that don't wash.

Hi English

I have read a few times on here that Cuddle Cat was supposed to be a present for Maddies' 4th birthday, by which time she had disappeared. If this is the case then why was Kate often taking it to work with her?

Does anyone know the true facts about Cuddle Cat - has anyone ever seen photos of Maddie with Cuddle Cat or any other pics of Cuddle Cat before Maddie disappeared?

[lizziedripping]

how is this for a lie. "we will not leave til maddie is found"

:clap: :clap:

[Shazza]

:clap: :clap:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

How many more lies are there?

[Texana]

Gerry's uncle was on CBS morning show today, said in regards to the "will not leave" statement that Kate and Gerry will definitely return to Portugal if necessary to keep the investigation on track (my paraphrase) and going, that in the past they have even been the ones "driving the investigation" (exact quote.)

I don't know if that counts exactly as a lie, but it was definitely shaded towards the impression that without the McCanns the investigation would have just slowed to nothing.

[lizziedripping]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

How many more lies are there?

I don't believe that Kate was offered the plea bargain whilst being interviewed by the Portugese Police. All we know about her interview is what she has relayed to friends and family - the Portugese Police have called this plea bargain as 'absolutely absurd' -

I think I believe them before I believe 'Kate (I took Cuddle Cat To Work) Mc Cann'!

[Texana]

Mrs. Fenn testified that on the night Madeleine went missing, she heard all the commotion downstairs (she had the apartment above the McCanns and is a permanent resident there) she asked Kate McCann if she would like her to call police.

Kate said no, they had already been called.

The police were not called for another forty minutes by the parents.

It's a gap worth questioning why so long--especially since Kate insisted immediately "they've taken her."

[Edwards20]

I am having a hard time deciding what media reports are fact or fiction. Are we reading any of these "statements" on the blog ? Is there video/audio from any media outlet ? Or, are these just strictly print reports.

[Rino]

I don't believe that Kate was offered the plea bargain whilst being interviewed by the Portugese Police. All we know about her interview is what she has relayed to friends and family - the Portugese Police have called this plea bargain as 'absolutely absurd' -

I think I believe them before I believe 'Kate (I took Cuddle Cat To Work) Mc Cann'!
Right.

The windows and the shutters were not used as an entry point into or exit out of the apt.

[Salem]

Couple of comments - hope I remember everything:crazy:

I believe the first LE was called within 10/15 minutes. This was the small, local police force. After they arrived on the scene, they contacted the PJ. This was approximately 40 mins later. This has caused confusion from the beginning because of the 2 different arms of LE.

As to the plea bargain - there have been several posts addressing that issue. Remember this was an interrogation in two different languages. I believe there is a link or post that quotes a Portugese attorney that explains the procedure for a plea bargain and then there is a post (I think from Philomena?) that indicates that the max sentence for "negligent homicide" is two/three years. It is thought from these two posts that what might have really been said, was: If you confess to accidently killing Maddie, the most you will get is 2/3 years.

The Portugese Attorney said the police have absolutely no authority to offer a plea bargain. I subscribe to the theory that this was a miscommunication based on the language differences.:o

Edwards - there are many videos, many of which can be accessed through the media link thread. Some of which are very interesting.

Now - how long before the McCanns start the fight against extradition? Isn't the new lawyer a specialist is fighting extradition? as well as defending people's reputations?

Very interesting their choice of attorneys, that will be paid for from the Maddie campaign fund.:banghead:

I will say - if they are innocent - then I have no problem with them using the fund. The sooner they prove their innocence and get back to finding Maddie, the better. But if they are guilty, I hope contributors to the fund sue them for fraud!

Salem

[gaia]

The funds are frozen, I think. So, the parents will have to come up with defense $$$ somewhere else, thank God!!!

gaia

[englishleigh]

The funds are frozen, I think. So, the parents will have to come up with defense $$$ somewhere else, thank God!!!

gaia

How do you know??

[Texana]

How do you know??

Do you remember when the articles came out almost simultaneously that Gerry wanted to get back to a normal life with the twins BUT wanted to go all out with a "last ditch everything spent" kind of approach to finding Maddie? There was a tabloid type report that his brother who is the fund administrator, said no to that. No reason given, just that.

I don't think the funds can be frozen. It's a private account and not a charity.

As well, if people voluntarily sent their money, I doubt they can get a dollar or rather, pound back if the money is used for legal defenses rather than search expenses. There were no contracts signed, and unless someone gave a substantial amount of money AND can get a lawyer (solicitor, right, in Britain? I remember vaguely there are two kinds of attornies?) to take it on, then they are just so out of luck with that.

(Edited to add, it seems to have been set up basically as a trust fund, with an administrator or guardian other than the McCanns, a relative or more than one, who approves expenses and signs off on checks.)

[Barnaby]

Can authorities not step in to freeze the funds even in a private company?

[robinparten]

This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script

If the above is true, I definitely think it was staged. From what I have read about other children gone missing, generally speaking, the parents don't automatically assume the child has been kidnapped, that is too painful and stunning to wrap your mind around. Instead, the first words might be something along the lines of "she is gone, she must have wandered away, did she go to someone else's room looking for us," that kind of thing. No parent wants to leap into the world of abduction and possible murder, you want to believe there is a logical explanation for why you can't find her, at least for the first few moments.

[MREG2]

If the above is true, I definitely think it was staged. From what I have read about other children gone missing, generally speaking, the parents don't automatically assume the child has been kidnapped, that is too painful and stunning to wrap your mind around. Instead, the first words might be something along the lines of "she is gone, she must have wandered away, did she go to someone else's room looking for us," that kind of thing. No parent wants to leap into the world of abduction and possible murder, you want to believe there is a logical explanation for why you can't find her, at least for the first few moments.


Exactly. It reeks of Scott Peterson to me. When he called Laci's mom he said Laci's missing. Hmmm..... :waitasec:

[Texana]

Can authorities not step in to freeze the funds even in a private company?

Not without evidence of a crime. When the fund was set up, I'm sure it was worded broadly enough to include living expenses for the McCanns. So whatever charges the administrators approve can be paid, as long as they are broadly categorized as living expenses.

Unless one of the trustees accuses the other of mishandling the funds, (and I'm sure all of them are McCann family and friends) then it's doubtful the fund would or could be frozen.

It wasn't set up as a special charity, it was set up as a trust fund for the McCanns, basically.

I'm certain their mortgage/bills at home, etc, have been paid out of the fund while they are not working. Several months of not working would deplete most "middle class" (as they've been repeatedly labeled) people's savings, and they had no immediate intent to go back to work, either one of them.

[Barnaby]

Not without evidence of a crime. When the fund was set up, I'm sure it was worded broadly enough to include living expenses for the McCanns. So whatever charges the administrators approve can be paid, as long as they are broadly categorized as living expenses.

Unless one of the trustees accuses the other of mishandling the funds, (and I'm sure all of them are McCann family and friends) then it's doubtful the fund would or could be frozen.

It wasn't set up as a special charity, it was set up as a trust fund for the McCanns, basically.

I'm certain their mortgage/bills at home, etc, have been paid out of the fund while they are not working. Several months of not working would deplete most "middle class" (as they've been repeatedly labeled) people's savings, and they had no immediate intent to go back to work, either one of them.

They have denied that any mortgage/bill payments have been paid for from the fund but then of course who knows with all their lies. Gerry McCann said that holiday insurance was paying for the rented villa, I found that strange.

[BloodshotEye]

Lies of Omission?

The following link, was provided by Jdee, on the Timeline thread. Thanks Jdee.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece
"Reports also claimed that police sources said Kate is mentally unstable, displayed “aggression” and has been using her right to remain silent."
The issue I would like to make note of, is Kate, using her right to remain silent. Huh? This smacks of Peterson telling LE to go get a search warrant.

There is another article I read yesterday (will look for it), that indicated PJ asked something like 40 questions, of Kate. And that she "declined" to answer a number of them.

I am reading through a number of articles that discuss her interview by PJ, and taking another look at how each news source reports Kate's response.

If this is an accurate report of Kate's response to questions, it is a big red flag to me.

[snvoigt]

I know when I give my dd or ds Tylenol it knocks them on their butts. My dd who is 4, will be asleep with in 30 min, and will sleep for hours. Can't wake her up for anything. So, yes I can see this being used to knock them out. For a little kid, a dose of Tylenol is like taking vicidon for an adult, they don't have a tolerance built up for pain killers.



Didn't he just say that they gave them Calpol? That is not a sedative; it is
a brand name of paracetamol which is known as acetaminophen in the United States. In other words, it is Tylenol. And I don't mean Tylenol PM either. Here's Calpol's web site:
http://www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8 (http://http//www.calpol.co.uk/en/latest.asp?section=38&ct=8)

[snvoigt]

Kinda like Scott saying "Laci is missing"? That right there is what made me think he did it, he knew what happend to her.




This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script

[patti54]

Found an interesting article written by David Brown of the Times Online, in it he says:
"How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?
Kate and Gerry McCann and their friends are reported to have told detectives they shared four bottles of wine, with another two barely touched before Madeleine was discovered missing.
However, it is claimed detectives have recovered a bill showing they downed eight bottles of red wine and six white during the afternoon and evening."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece?token=null&offset=0

I wonder why they didn't have a baby monitor with them. One of the other people in the group had one. Then again, I wonder why they left the babies home alone at all.

[patti54]

Why did Kate wash the toy after Maddie was missing for 4 days? Wouldn't you think she would want to keep Maddie's scent on the toy? I just don't get it... your daughter is missing, her favorite toy left behind, Mommy Dearest carries the toy with her everywhere she goes and then decides to wash it? Who gives a crap about laundry when your daughter is missing?

[solidarity]

Not without evidence of a crime. When the fund was set up, I'm sure it was worded broadly enough to include living expenses for the McCanns. So whatever charges the administrators approve can be paid, as long as they are broadly categorized as living expenses.

Unless one of the trustees accuses the other of mishandling the funds, (and I'm sure all of them are McCann family and friends) then it's doubtful the fund would or could be frozen.

It wasn't set up as a special charity, it was set up as a trust fund for the McCanns, basically.

I'm certain their mortgage/bills at home, etc, have been paid out of the fund while they are not working. Several months of not working would deplete most "middle class" (as they've been repeatedly labeled) people's savings, and they had no immediate intent to go back to work, either one of them.

I heard on the news that once they become official SUSPECTS in the case, they were prevented from using the fund. Personally, I hope this is the case. People donated money to help find Maddie, and not to legally defend those who may have actually harmed her!!

[philamena]

Why did Kate wash the toy after Maddie was missing for 4 days? Wouldn't you think she would want to keep Maddie's scent on the toy? I just don't get it... your daughter is missing, her favorite toy left behind, Mommy Dearest carries the toy with her everywhere she goes and then decides to wash it? Who gives a crap about laundry when your daughter is missing?

Good question patti54. I can't think of any mothers who'd do that. Like you said, they'd want their child's scent on the toy.

Think about it, if reports are correct, Kate took the cat to work...doesn't sound like she was worried about it getting dirty to me.

[BethInAK]

Good question patti54. I can't think of any mothers who'd do that. Like you said, they'd want their child's scent on the toy.

Think about it, if reports are correct, Kate took the cat to work...doesn't sound like she was worried about it getting dirty to me.

you know, I'm about as attached to my kid as you get, but I don't' take his stuffed animals into my professional workplace. And I can't imagine that even doctors get much contact with cadavers. And if maddy loved it so much why would mom take it to work???

[ThoughtFox]

This is from another thread, but IMO, has some real cover up issues surrounding it......

From a post by Cali -

c. Kate McCann's screams to GM at 10:00 that "They took her", as she raced back to the restaurant without the twins. Who is "they"? Which one of her daughters is "her"? Like if she suspected that someone had kidnapped one of the children, why would she leave the twins alone?

My response.....

WOW, this sets my hinky meter off - good call Cali -

WHY would she leave the two twins alone when she just found her one daughter missing..........

WHY did she say "THEY took HER"; if that is in fact exactly what she said. Can anyone verify this? This sounds like a staged comment. THEY - who is they?? why did she say they? and HER - her who? There was another little girl in that room that night - Kate didn't specify which child was taken. Shey just said "THEY (small foreign faction??) took HER."

Wouldn't you think she would have said something more along the lines of "Maddie is not in the apartment" or "Maddie isn't in her bed" -
NOT - THEY TOOK HER!!!!!

In a way it sounds to me like a rehearsed script

Yeah, Poco - that is just nuts! :waitasec: Why would she leave the twins alone, when the first thing a mother would do is to pick them up and make sure they are ok? And if she had two daughters - then what the heck is that indefinite pronoun "she" about? Gah!

And about the Tylenol thing? I've read a few places that there are possible health risks with it - I don't take it, and I don't give it to my kids. I can't believe that doctors would be injecting their children with it - good Lord! Why would three small children need injections of pain killer - this is really creeping me out. How can they justify knocking out the kids so they can go drink and play a trivia game?

I always gave these parents the benefit of the doubt, and I followed the case as a kidnapping waiting to be solved. Other miracles have happened. But just in the two days I've been reading here about the case, I've become convinced that this is a crime and that the parents are covering up something. There are plenty of lies and there are lies to come.

[gord]

Yeah, Poco - that is just nuts! :waitasec: Why would she leave the twins alone, when the first thing a mother would do is to pick them up and make sure they are ok? And if she had two daughters - then what the heck is that indefinite pronoun "she" about? Gah!

And about the Tylenol thing? I've read a few places that there are possible health risks with it - I don't take it, and I don't give it to my kids. I can't believe that doctors would be injecting their children with it - good Lord! Why would three small children need injections of pain killer - this is really creeping me out. How can they justify knocking out the kids so they can go drink and play a trivia game?

I always gave these parents the benefit of the doubt, and I followed the case as a kidnapping waiting to be solved. Other miracles have happened. But just in the two days I've been reading here about the case, I've become convinced that this is a crime and that the parents are covering up something. There are plenty of lies and there are lies to come.

nowhere has GM or KM admitted to injecting their kids with anything . All they have ever said is they have given Calpol - which in the UK is fairly common as mild pain relief or as an aid to reduce temperature

In every statement from the Mcanns I have read or heard they fervently deny anything about sedating the kids

[poco]

If the above is true, I definitely think it was staged. From what I have read about other children gone missing, generally speaking, the parents don't automatically assume the child has been kidnapped, that is too painful and stunning to wrap your mind around. Instead, the first words might be something along the lines of "she is gone, she must have wandered away, did she go to someone else's room looking for us," that kind of thing. No parent wants to leap into the world of abduction and possible murder, you want to believe there is a logical explanation for why you can't find her, at least for the first few moments.

Keywords here are THEY and HER (remember, there was another daughter in that room)

As I stated in another thread - your first statement in all likelihood would be
"Maddie is missing from the apartment." You would not ASSUME that THEY took her. To me, the statement THEY took her makes you think that she knew who THEY were................

IMO, this is the most damaging piece of evidence thus far.

[Barnaby]

Yes & that everyone else in the party knew who SHE was

[patti54]

It does seem very odd that Kate immediately assumed anyone had taken Maddie immediately. Wouldn't your first thought be that she had woken up and wandered off? Wouldn't you be screaming for help to find the wandering child? And if you did think she had been abducted, would you leave your other 2 children alone in the room? Don't these people have cellphones? I have not read any reports other than on forums that she actually went back to the bar. Does anyone have precise information on that?

I also have not read that the children were drugged.

Just read in the morning online edition of the Times that a journalist doing a documentary has shown up in Rothley.....again cue the eerie music while we compare this case to the Ramsey case.

[patti54]

That whole cat thing is bugging me so I went Goggling for information on it this morning. Apparently the police are curious about the cat as well as why Kate immediately thought her daughter had been abducted rather than wandered off.
From http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22379573-2,00.html?from=mostpop
"Police also asked the distraught mother why she washed Cuddly Cat after Madeleine disappeared, despite it being her favourite toy, with her distinctive smell.

Before asking her outright if she killed her child, detectives also questioned her on why she yelled that someone had "taken my little girl" and instantly assumed an abduction, on the night of her disappearance.

Mrs McCann reportedly swore at police when they asked her the final question."

Another question that has plaqued me: Kate is an anesthetist. Why has she been around 6 dead bodies recently? If she is good at her job, there should be no dead bodies. It also puts her availability to knock out drugs very very near at hand.......

I am on the fence as to theri guilty but again, shades of Ramsey are coming forth. At this point the evidence/reports indicate to me that they may not have done it but they know who did.

Does anyone have a link to report that gives more detail on what has been reported in the minutes immediately following the discovery of the missing child?

[Barnaby]

Kate trained as an anesthetist but is now a GP

[poco]

Kate trained as an anesthetist but is now a GP

Right, she's a GP and I doubt many GP's see dead bodies............... In fact, how my doctors do actually see dead bodies unless you are the medical examiner or the patient dies right in front of your eyes.

If a patient dies in the hospital, do you think the doctor comes rushing in to double check??? Dead is dead - don't need no doctor anymore. Need a medical examiner.

[patti54]

Would a GP's presence be required at the morgue?

[poco]

Would a GP's presence be required at the morgue?

IMO, I would say no. Anybody else????

Besides, a GP now is only used basically for your routine illnesses - colds, flus, etc etc., anything more than that you are referred to a specialist. I can't even imagine a cardiologist wanting to see the dead body of one of his patients. I don't know, maybe any doctor in the hospital at the time can confirm death. But a GP??? Who knows.

[wtsn5]

From my understanding where Kate lives she as a GP would do house calls on patients. So yes she may come across dead bodies, GPs in the UK don't seems to be like the GPs in North America. She would be called to a patients house to declare them dead. At least this is what I heard yesterday listening to one of the "experts" Nancy Grace had on last night.

[patti54]

While looking for reports on what happened at the moment Kate realized Maddie was missing, I found this article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2188493.ece
"There was about 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought 'that can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit.
"I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was just total fear.
"I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
"But I knew she wouldn't do that anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken. That's why the fear set in

"BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE APARTMENT HAD BEEN LEFT" ??
Anyone know what she is referring to?

Why does she run to the group without checking on her other children (again shades of Ramsey here...)

[poco]

From my understanding where Kate lives she as a GP would do house calls on patients. So yes she may come across dead bodies, GPs in the UK don't seems to be like the GPs in North America. She would be called to a patients house to declare them dead. At least this is what I heard yesterday listening to one of the "experts" Nancy Grace had on last night.

Thanks for the clarification.................. then I guess it is possible.... :waitasec:

[Texana]

One of the British news reports (I posted two this morning on the media thread) referred to her as "locum" GP. I found the definition and it means "temporary" or basically, a substitute doctor. So she fills in for others, therefore, she might very well have come in contact with corpses.

Although I think that's a stretch, if she didn't wash her clothes after coming in contact with cadavers--does she wear the same shoes and belt on vacation that she wears to work? Really?

[englishleigh]

One of the British news reports (I posted two this morning on the media thread) referred to her as "locum" GP. I found the definition and it means "temporary" or basically, a substitute doctor. So she fills in for others, therefore, she might very well have come in contact with corpses.

Although I think that's a stretch, if she didn't wash her clothes after coming in contact with cadavers--does she wear the same shoes and belt on vacation that she wears to work? Really?

I think it's a stretch, too, but even if it isn't, it doesn't explain the ludicrous claim of dragging Cuddle Cat to work with her around corpses. :liar:

[concernedperson]

I think it's a stretch, too, but even if it isn't, it doesn't explain the ludicrous claim of dragging Cuddle Cat to work with her around corpses. :liar:

Honestly, how can anyone get around that as an explanation?

I think Kate's clothes and Cuddle Cat got decomposition permeated into them whilst moving Maddie's remains. To me that is the only way cadaver smell would remain on them in those few weeks from the time they rented the car. It had to be more than a passing by of a corpse or quick viewing for this to happen.

[patti54]

I think it's a stretch, too, but even if it isn't, it doesn't explain the ludicrous claim of dragging Cuddle Cat to work with her around corpses. :liar:

Where is this information reported that she took Cuddle Cat to work with her? I have read nothing in all the articles I have read.

Thanks.

[gord]

I think it's a stretch, too, but even if it isn't, it doesn't explain the ludicrous claim of dragging Cuddle Cat to work with her around corpses. :liar:

these facts can all be easily checked at the surgery she works - I dont see much point in her lying to that extent when the records of whet she did can be cross checked

The cadaver thing is also a bit of a red herring - it cannot possibly be used as admissable evidence to convict anyway - merely pont the police in the direction - they will need a lot more than that

[wtsn5]

Where is this information reported that she took Cuddle Cat to work with her? I have read nothing in all the articles I have read.

Thanks.


I have wondered that my self. Is this a fact about cuddle cats or just something that was reported by a source. As none of the parties are allowed to discuss the case.

[Texana]

Exactly, EnglishLeigh, if she really said that, she's desperate.

Wouldn't a more reasonable reaction be, "Oh my God, the abductor took Cuddle Cat and placed it on a shelf, does this mean my child was holding it when she died?"

[englishleigh]

these facts can all be easily checked at the surgery she works - I dont see much point in her lying to that extent when the records of whet she did can be cross checked

The cadaver thing is also a bit of a red herring - it cannot possibly be used as admissable evidence to convict anyway - merely pont the police in the direction - they will need a lot more than that

When being directly questioned about the cadaver scent on her clothing and Cuddle Cat, which perhaps she was not aware of the PJ having in evidence, I doubt she would think about anything being able to be cross-checked at her place of work. From the lameness of her response, esp. about Cuddle Cat, it sounds like the first response that came into her head.

We also need to remember that Cuddle Cat was reportedly--by the parents' own report in the days immediately following Maddie's disappearance--supposed to have been a fourth birthday gift for Madeleine...Madeleine was already missing when that day rolled around, so why would Kate have been taking CC to work with her when it was supposed to be a future gift for her daughter?

[close_enough]

Gerry McCann admitted to sedating the children, I dont think the twins were tested. But the words came out of Gerrys mouth so they must be true.

whoa, i didn't know this:eek:

[gord]

whoa, i didn't know this:eek:


All he has ever admitted was giving the kids Calpol - which is NOT the same as sedating far from it

In fact they have fervently denied ever having given the kids sedatives

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Why did Kate wash the toy after Maddie was missing for 4 days? Wouldn't you think she would want to keep Maddie's scent on the toy? I just don't get it... your daughter is missing, her favorite toy left behind, Mommy Dearest carries the toy with her everywhere she goes and then decides to wash it? Who gives a crap about laundry when your daughter is missing?

Exactly...and have you noticed that you never seem to see Dr. Kate in the same outfit? I mean, how many outfits did the woman take with her? She must have taken 100 days worth, or has been enjoying many shopping trips.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Where is this information reported that she took Cuddle Cat to work with her? I have read nothing in all the articles I have read.

Thanks.


To be fair to the parents, there is a lot of information on this case that I have only read HERE, on WS. Like cuddle cat being a b-day present, parents admit to sedating children with syringes, and Maddie possibly being autistic or asperger's. I have questioned the person who have reported these things but She always seems to miss, or ignore my request for a reference. Most of what you read here is gossip, and should be treated as such.

[gord]

To be fair to the parents, there is a lot of information on this case that I have only read HERE, on WS. Like cuddle cat being a b-day present, parents admit to sedating children with syringes, and Maddie possibly being autistic or asperger's. I have questioned the person who have reported these things but She always seems to miss, or ignore my request for a reference. Most of what you read here is gossip, and should be treated as such.

very true - that is why I started to post as I saw a lot of stuff being written that seemed wildly off the mark

But I suppose that is the nature of a case like this where there always seems to be modicum of specualtion

[Texana]

Here's one article from the UK Telegraph that briefly mentions at the end how Kate's clothing could have been contaminated from work. I don't know if that response about being contaminated from work came from one of the family members like Philomena or was leaked, though. Doesn't say here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/11/wmaddy411.xml

I think the confusion over CuddleCat being a birthday present or not happened because there was a second toy bought after she went missing as a birthday present--a green "ragdoll." It was mentioned in either Gerry's blog or one of the many interviews. I'll see if I can locate it later, it's probably way back in the beginning threads/links now--with all the initial publicity about the yellow and green bracelets, etc.

I did find this one from the Mirror in which Kate talks about washing CuddleCat, although I honestly don't know how dirty it could get since she's constantly holding it and gives the impression it doesn't leave her grip:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/05/i-m-sorry-madeleine-98487-19573670/

[Texana]

While looking for reports on what happened at the moment Kate realized Maddie was missing, I found this article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2188493.ece
"There was about 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought 'that can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit.
"I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was just total fear.
"I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
"But I knew she wouldn't do that anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken. That's why the fear set in

"BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE APARTMENT HAD BEEN LEFT" ??
Anyone know what she is referring to?

Why does she run to the group without checking on her other children (again shades of Ramsey here...)

The window shutters were open, and Cuddle Cat was moved. That seems to have been it.

[Rino]

While looking for reports on what happened at the moment Kate realized Maddie was missing, I found this article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2188493.ece
"There was about 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought 'that can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit.
"I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was just total fear.
"I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
"But I knew she wouldn't do that anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken. That's why the fear set in

"BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE APARTMENT HAD BEEN LEFT" ??
Anyone know what she is referring to?

Why does she run to the group without checking on her other children (again shades of Ramsey here...)
Also from the article her following remarks go in direct opposition to what Mrs. Fenn tells as well as the accusations that the PJ did a bad job not allowing the scene to be contaminated.....

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that.
"I look back sometimes and think 'you didn't do that badly.' We were very conscious of not touching things.

[CaliKid]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2188493.ece

From TimesOnline interview with Kate McCann- Aug. 12- Memories of a Lost Daughter

"I was desperately hoping that Madeleine would be back before the cat got washed. In the end Cuddle Cat smelt of suntan lotion and everything. I forgot what colour it was. "It was special to Madeleine, she took it to bed every night. If she was upset or tired she had Cuddle Cat. It was special to her so it's special to me.

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that.

"I look back sometimes and think 'you didn't do that badly.' We were very conscious of not touching things.

"I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."
---------------------------------------

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=madeleine-my-guilt-regret&method=full&objectid=19572601&siteid=93463-name_page.html

The People interview with Kate McCann- Aug. 5- Madeleine: My Guilt and Regret

Hugging Maddie's treasured Cuddle Cat, anguished Kate revealed she could no longer smell her daughter's scent on the toy. ... And she clung tightly to Cuddle Cat as she relived the nightmare of her daughter's disappearance. She said she still kisses the pink and white toy - but admitted Madeleine's scent was fading from it.

My note- How convenient for Kate that she carried Cuddle Cat around with her all summer and only washed it as soon as she realized the PJ would be going back and retesting for traces of DNA.

[CaliKid]

Discrepencies:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/05/i-m-sorry-madeleine-98487-19573670/

Sunday Mirror interview with Kate McCann- Aug. 12- I'm Sorry Madeleine

Clutching the pink Cuddle Cat toy which has been a constant source of comfort to her since it was left lying in Madeleine's bed the night she was taken, Kate says: "I want to tell her we love her very much. She knows we're looking for her, that we're doing absolutely everything and we'll never give up." ... Kate says she saw that Madeleine's toy Cuddle Cat had been left behind, but was careful not to touch it in case it held a clue to who took her.
--------------------------

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/12/maddy-was-alive-when-taken-98487-19613517/

Sunday Mirror- Aug. 12- Maddy was alive when taken

Missing Madeleine McCann's favourite pink Cuddle Cat toy was taken from her arms as she slept and placed beyond her reach by her kidnapper. That is why police are certain Madeleine was snatched while she was asleep - and was NOT killed or injured in the holiday apartment.

When her mum Kate, 38, tucked Madeleine into bed, the four-year-old was cuddling the toy - but it was later found placed on a ledge that Madeleine could not have reached. ... Madeleine was kidnapped as the toy she had fallen asleep with was left on a ledge placed too high for a child to reach

[Gin]

What kidnapper would carefully place a child's cuddly toy on a high shelf???

I just don't think kidnappers tidy up the nursery.

[ThoughtFox]

To be fair to the parents, there is a lot of information on this case that I have only read HERE, on WS. Like cuddle cat being a b-day present, parents admit to sedating children with syringes, and Maddie possibly being autistic or asperger's. I have questioned the person who have reported these things but She always seems to miss, or ignore my request for a reference. Most of what you read here is gossip, and should be treated as such.

Oh, I don't think so. Most people here are very careful about spreading rumors, and almost all these things have been widely reported either in the British press or on the TV talk shows. But it could be this article that has caused a bit of confusion, because it is about Maddie's birthday, and the Mom is seen holding Cuddle Cat:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/05/13/mum-s-birthday-plea-for-madeline-98487-19094685/

Madeline's birthday was on Day 11 of the search:

MUM'S BIRTHDAY PLEA FOR MADELINE
THE SEARCH FOR MADELEINE: DAY 11
By Lori Campbell And Simon Wright In Praia Da Luz and Susie Boniface In London 13/05/2007

. . . IT was the cruellest day any mother could face. She should have been celebrating her little girl's fourth birthday at a party packed with friends, family and laughter. Instead Kate McCann, sleepless with anxiety, greeted dawn with a growing despair as the hunt for missing Madeleine today enters another unbearable week. In a statement read on her behalf she pleaded" "On Madeleine's birthday, please keep looking, please keep praying, please help bring Madeleine home."

The McCanns walked silently side-by-side into church, Kate clutching the Cuddle Cat toy that has not left her side since Madeleine's disappearance.

I just found this interview that seems really strange to me - and it's really worth reading because it is just with Kate in her own words. She says over and over that no one "would ever dream" about a predator stealing a child. Oh yeah? I think alot of parents think of that all the time and make sure their kids are safe:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2836182.ece

That night

The night she went missing there was about 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought 'that can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit. I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was just total fear. I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.

But I knew she wouldn't do that anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken. That's why the fear set in. Then you go through the guilt phase. Straight away, because we didn't know what had happened. We were just so desperately sorry. Every hour now, I still question, 'why did I think that was safe?'

I can't describe how much I love Madeleine. If I'd had to think for one second, 'should we have dinner and leave them?' I wouldn't have done it. It didn't happen like that. I didn't have to think for a second, that's how safe I felt.
Maybe it was because it was family-friendly, because it felt so safe. That week we had left them alone while we had dinner. There is no way on this planet I would take a risk, no matter how small, with my children. I do say to myself 'why did I think it was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I love her and I'm a totally responsible parent and that's the only thing that keeps me going. I have no doubt about that.

You don't expect a predator to break in and take your daughter out the bed. It could have happened under other circumstances and there would still be the regret. It wasn't like a decision we made. It was a matter of 'let's get the kids to sleep, then we'll have dinner.' It wasn't a 'shall I, shan't I?' thing. I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there.

This has touched so many people. I've had so many letters from mothers, really kind words. People have said 'Kate, we've done this a hundred times over ourselves. Why would you for one minute think something like that would happen?' It's not like we went down town or anything.


Hmmm - that just raises my eyebrows even more. How could she "know" that a child wouldn't suddenly get up and go looking for Mommy and Daddy? I know from my own kids that they can be totally unpredictable, especially at age 4, and you have no way of knowing what they are going to do. If a toy was up high somewhere, and it wasn't supposed to be, I would assume the kids threw it up there, but then, I didn't usually knock my toddlers out before dinner - geesh.

[Gin]

Unfortunately one way you would "know" a child wouldn't wake up and look for Mommy and Daddy is if you're a doctor and you've sedated your kiddos.

I have to hope that sedating children for the parent's convenience is considered abuse in Great Britain, USA, or anyplace on the planet

[CaliKid]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/05/13/mum-s-birthday-plea-for-madeline-98487-19094685/

As Thoughtfox said, this may be where the idea that Cuddle Cat was a birthday gift came from.

I can't find anything to substantiate it either way. All I've read is speculation from the forums, some of them originally anecdotes from family members that found their way there through second-hand information. Unfortunately, many of the early threads in the Madeleine forums are now gone because of the hacker wars over the summer. People were posting porn, etc. trying to get various non-McCann threads shut down.

[KR2tonenow]

Unfortunately one way you would "know" a child wouldn't wake up and look for Mommy and Daddy is if you're a doctor and you've sedated your kiddos.

I have to hope that sedating children for the parent's convenience is considered abuse in Great Britain, USA, or anyplace on the planet

EXACTLY!!

[BloodshotEye]

The stuffed cat toy vs. Maddies B-day present of a greenish stuffed thing

Maddie's stuffed "cuddle cat" toy
My understanding, is that there was a little confusion with the initial reports of these two toys. The stuffed thing that Kate very childishly refers to as "Cuddle Cat" (pronoun), as opposed to the stuffed cuddle cat (noun), is a favorite toy of Maddies. The tag on the toy, is impinted with the words "Cuttle Cat". Kate reported that she took this stuffed cat to work with her, and that is why the cadaver dogs may have detected a cadaver scent on it. Yea. Sure Kate...
See a photo posted by CaliKid, in the "Pictures" thread. Post #11.

Why do I get the sense that when Kate mentions this stuffed toy, she is about to break into a conversation with Mr. Cuddle Cat? e.g. So, where were you Cuddle Cat? And she answers for it: "Well, I was in your pocket when we went to work, remember"? Psycho. That's all I have to say about that.

Maddie's Birthday Present that was a stuffed toy
There was yet another stuffed toy, that was for Maddie's birthday present. I think I recall that it was greenish. There isn't a photo of it in the sticky "Photo" thread yet. I think it even looks cat-like. Will try to hunt one down.

Hope I didn't confuse the issue, anymore than it is. ;]

[Texana]

The stuffed cat toy vs. Maddies B-day present of a greenish stuffed thing

Maddie's stuffed "cuddle cat" toy
My understanding, is that there was a little confusion with the initial reports of these two toys. The stuffed thing that Kate very childishly refers to as "Cuddle Cat" (pronoun), as opposed to the stuffed cuddle cat (noun), is a favorite toy of Maddies. The tag on the toy, is impinted with the words "Cuttle Cat". Kate reported that she took this stuffed cat to work with her, and that is why the cadaver dogs may have detected a cadaver scent on it. Yea. Sure Kate...
See a photo posted by CaliKid, in the "Pictures" thread. Post #11.

Why do I get the sense that when Kate mentions this stuffed toy, she is about to break into a conversation with Mr. Cuddle Cat? e.g. So, where were you Cuddle Cat? And she answers for it: "Well, I was in your pocket when we went to work, remember"? Psycho. That's all I have to say about that.

Maddie's Birthday Present that was a stuffed toy
There was yet another stuffed toy, that was for Maddie's birthday present. I think I recall that it was greenish. There isn't a photo of it in the sticky "Photo" thread yet. I think it even looks cat-like. Will try to hunt one down.

Hope I didn't confuse the issue, anymore than it is. ;]

You did a nice job listing the differences and hopefully clearing up the confusion.

I remember reading about the greenish toy, too. It was green for "hope" and it was described as a "ragdoll" kind of toy, that the McCanns bought for Madeleine's birthday.

I think I saw a photo of it but it's being carried by one of the McCanns and you can't really make out what it is.

[BethInAK]

Unfortunately one way you would "know" a child wouldn't wake up and look for Mommy and Daddy is if you're a doctor and you've sedated your kiddos.

I have to hope that sedating children for the parent's convenience is considered abuse in Great Britain, USA, or anyplace on the planet

Thats an excellent point. We know from Mrs Fenn that we DID have her waking and calling for daddy. So how could they possibly know that it wouldn't happen?

[Spotted1]

All he has ever admitted was giving the kids Calpol - which is NOT the same as sedating far from it

In fact they have fervently denied ever having given the kids sedatives

I'm sorry to just jump in here at random... but I've been lurking the McCann case threads on this forum for quite some time, and I continually see it said that Calpol/paracetamol/acetaminophen/tylenol doesn't sedate children. But for some kids, it does! I have a 3.5 year old daughter, and a 4 month old daughter, and everytime I've ever given either of them a dose of infants/children's acetaminophen, it causes drowsiness. Even as an adult woman, I can take half an adult dose of acetaminophen and experience drowsiness.

In the right sized dose, it can cause sedation, especially in a small child.

[Gin]

I'm sorry to just jump in here at random... but I've been lurking the McCann case threads on this forum for quite some time, and I continually see it said that Calpol/paracetamol/acetaminophen/tylenol doesn't sedate children. But for some kids, it does! I have a 3.5 year old daughter, and a 4 month old daughter, and everytime I've ever given either of them a dose of infants/children's acetaminophen, it causes drowsiness. Even as an adult woman, I can take half an adult dose of acetaminophen and experience drowsiness.

In the right sized dose, it can cause sedation, especially in a small child.

It absolutely is used for sedation. It's use a "mommy's helper" to get little ones to sleep seems to be becoming controversial, which is a very good thing.

[Rino]

It absolutely is used for sedation. It's use a "mommy's helper" to get little ones to sleep seems to be becoming controversial, which is a very good thing.
And Gin is mommies little helper at martini hour:D

[Gin]

And Gin is mommies little helper at martini hour:D........actually Gin prefers chardonnay.......... :)

[Spotted1]

It absolutely is used for sedation. It's use a "mommy's helper" to get little ones to sleep seems to be becoming controversial, which is a very good thing.

Right. Benadryl is another common medicine used for sedation.

I know prior to appointments for vaccines, pediatricians will reccommend a dose of tylenol about 30 minutes prior to the appointment time so the child will a) have the fever reducer/pain relief already in their system and effective, and b) be drowsy so they'll be less aware of the shots being given to them.

[gord]

Right. Benadryl is another common medicine used for sedation.

I know prior to appointments for vaccines, pediatricians will reccommend a dose of tylenol about 30 minutes prior to the appointment time so the child will a) have the fever reducer/pain relief already in their system and effective, and b) be drowsy so they'll be less aware of the shots being given to them.

Caplpol is freely available over the counter - it has mild pain killing qualities and is used by thousands of mothers in the UK tio help bring down temp .
I know what people are saying about drowsiness , but that is more to do with it is almost alwas given at night aftert a warm bath when the child temp is a little high or they are teething

The way it is being described in various threads here as some sort of knovk out drug that renders the child unconcious . It is not

I have given calpol to all my kids at various stages of their lives it is quite normal

[Gin]

Calpol, is similar to Tylenol. Tylenol is not a drug without danger. When used properly, it's fine. Most health experts feel that the risk of liver damage in young children is a good reason why any acetaminophen drug shouldn't be used routinely.
If a child truly has a fever, or has a very, very bad day of teething, that's one thing. Otherwise, it's far better to go with bath, rocking, and soothing without drugs.

Which brings up another question-why would doctors, who know this stuff, be so comfortable dosing their little ones?

[gord]

Calpol, is similar to Tylenol. Tylenol is not a drug without danger. When used properly, it's fine. Most health experts feel that the risk of liver damage in young children is a good reason why any acetaminophen drug shouldn't be used routinely.
If a child truly has a fever, or has a very, very bad day of teething, that's one thing. Otherwise, it's far better to go with bath, rocking, and soothing without drugs.

Which brings up another question-why would doctors, who know this stuff, be so comfortable dosing their little ones?

I have no ideas how often they were given it - I doubt that sort of detail has been given . They werev in a hot country oustide - so maybe if they got a touch of sun then it would be useful .

I was justy trying to make the point -- Calpol is the only " drug " the Mccaans have admitted to giving their kids

They have denied ever using any other drugs whatsoever and Calpol will not have the results of being a knock out drug so they could go and party as it has been suggested .

Now it is entirely possible that they gave all sorts of drugs to the kids - but that has never come out and is just pure specualtion

[Spotted1]

Caplpol is freely available over the counter - it has mild pain killing qualities and is used by thousands of mothers in the UK tio help bring down temp .
I know what people are saying about drowsiness , but that is more to do with it is almost alwas given at night aftert a warm bath when the child temp is a little high or they are teething

The way it is being described in various threads here as some sort of knovk out drug that renders the child unconcious . It is not

I have given calpol to all my kids at various stages of their lives it is quite normal

I know it's sold OTC. I have a bottle of infants tylenol and childrens tylenol both in my medicine cabinet. I have children, as I said earlier, and I know the effects it has. I've given it to my children midday (prior to appointments for vaccinations) and it still sedates them, no bath necessary.

Infants tylenol is concentrated to have 80mg per .8ml dosage. A 2-3 year old, or a child weighing between 24 and 35 pounds is given a 1.6ml dose. Purely speculating on my part, I would assume that is the dosage administered to the twins. Maddie, being just shy of 4, would've required a slightly larger dose.

What is there to say that Gerry didn't give Maddie one dose, and Kate (without realizing Gerry had already done so) gave Maddie more, and it caused a problem?

[Betsy]

Sometimes if my kids have spent all day outside or at the pool, they will feel warm at bedtime and I'll give them a little Tylenol to bring their (slight) fever down. They do seem to sleep better, but I couldn't say if the Tylenol itself causes this or if they are simply exhausted from a busy day. I could definitely see Maddie being pretty tired at the end of the day--the twins, too, I'm sure. Being bathed and put to bed at an early hour should be sufficient to get them to sleep, unless they had hit the wall and were overly exhausted. That's another issue altogether.

[gord]

I know it's sold OTC. I have a bottle of infants tylenol and childrens tylenol both in my medicine cabinet. I have children, as I said earlier, and I know the effects it has. I've given it to my children midday (prior to appointments for vaccinations) and it still sedates them, no bath necessary.

Infants tylenol is concentrated to have 80mg per .8ml dosage. A 2-3 year old, or a child weighing between 24 and 35 pounds is given a 1.6ml dose. Purely speculating on my part, I would assume that is the dosage administered to the twins. Maddie, being just shy of 4, would've required a slightly larger dose.

What is there to say that Gerry didn't give Maddie one dose, and Kate (without realizing Gerry had already done so) gave Maddie more, and it caused a problem?

it is a parecetamol based drug - any over dose would attack the liver - which would take a few hours for symptons to occur -

I have also read that you would have to give a kid a lot more than two 1.6ml doses for it to have any overdoe affect -

anyway they are doctors - if they wanted to sedate theiir kids they would get their hands on stuff a lot stronger than calpol

[Belle]

I haven't seen anything confirming that the children were given a sedative at all, of any kind. No idea where that info came from.

I agree that the children should not have been left alone -- whether they needed Tylenol or not. It's completely selfish and irresponsible, and here in the U.S. also against the law. Don't know about Portugal.

I guess my thing is, I don't admire the McCann's and I don't think they have likeable personalities, and I think they certainly contributed to this situation by their neglect. But I just haven't been convinced that they killed their daughter and disposed of her body. Much of the suspicion surrounding them is based on speculation and exaggeration as far as I can tell. (Now, what the suspicions of PJ are based on, I'd love to know -- that could change my mind for sure.)



This decribes how I feel exactly.

[teacherbees]

I've given tylenol to my chlldren for things like teething, sunburn pain, mild fever, etc...and I think it does have a mild sedating effect.

However, from the description of the twins - completely out and unable to be aroused even with the tremendous amount of commotion going on and being picked up and transported to another place - it sounds like there are some possibilities that might have been considered beyond the normal dosage of a children's pain reliever.

It's possible K and G were overdosing the kids to make sure the sedative effect took...or they lied about what drug they used.

I personally don't trust their word. Kate's absurd "I took my child's bedtime lovey with me to work and rubbed it on the dead folk before bringing it back into my home and into contact with my small children" sure sounds like a whopper to me.

Initially, they flat out denied giving their kids any drugs...

So these are people who have the ability to lie. And, as I tell my kids, when you're caught lying, it only makes things harder for you because, from that point on, no one ever really knows what things you're saying are the truth and what are more lies.

[mom24boys]

long time reader, but finally decided to join.

Here's another lie.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2188493.ece

. Kate says: "It was a really uncomplicated pregnancy. I had no sickness, nothing. It was so easy..." speaking of Madeline.

um..Auntie Phil has stated that Kate's pregnancies were all "absolutely terrible". The last time she said that was last Friday. I can look for the link if you want me to, but I noticed they were talking about Kate's terrible pregnancies on the mirror forum and then I noticed this article tonight...

I don't know which of them is lying, or even if it's a big deal, but somebody is clearly changing the story.

[ThoughtFox]

Hi, mom24boys! :)

I've been looking around trying to find a quote from Auntie Philomena about the pregnancy from last Friday or anytime, and all I can find is this quote from a different relative - Norah Paul - about "what she went through" which was referring to the In-Vitro Fertilization, and not the pregnancy:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070907/McCann_mother_070907/20070907?hub=TopStories

Norah Paul, the aunt of Kate and godmother to Madeleine, told CTV on Friday that the allegations are baseless. She described the parents and their three children as a happy family.

"It is absolutely ridiculous to even be able to talk like that knowing our Kate and knowing how desperately they wanted children and the work she went to get children, the IVF (in vetro fertilization)," said the Vancouver resident.

"When Madeleine came along, it was the answer to all their prayers and they just loved their kids. I was with them just before they went to Portugal, and they were just a very happy family unit."



There is a quote from Philomena in that article, but it just says they were framed. I searched through alot of transcripts but I can't find any quotes about Kate having such bad pregnancies, although having twins is always risky and difficult.


anyway they are doctors - if they wanted to sedate theiir kids they would get their hands on stuff a lot stronger than calpol
That's the thing, though - they could be lying. Of course they would tell the police that they gave all the kids something mild - they wouldn't say they knocked their own children out so they could go party.

I personally don't trust their word. Kate's absurd "I took my child's bedtime lovey with me to work and rubbed it on the dead folk before bringing it back into my home and into contact with my small children" sure sounds like a whopper to me.

Initially, they flat out denied giving their kids any drugs...

So these are people who have the ability to lie. And, as I tell my kids, when you're caught lying, it only makes things harder for you because, from that point on, no one ever really knows what things you're saying are the truth and what are more lies.
That's been the case in so many murders - the lies accumulate. Pretty people who seem "nice" and "decent" will lie to protect themselves, and it seems to me these folks are way too concerned about appearances to admit they ever did anything that wasn't acceptable.

[CaliKid]

long time reader, but finally decided to join.

Here's another lie.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2188493.ece

. Kate says: "It was a really uncomplicated pregnancy. I had no sickness, nothing. It was so easy..." speaking of Madeline.

um..Auntie Phil has stated that Kate's pregnancies were all "absolutely terrible". The last time she said that was last Friday. I can look for the link if you want me to, but I noticed they were talking about Kate's terrible pregnancies on the mirror forum and then I noticed this article tonight...

I don't know which of them is lying, or even if it's a big deal, but somebody is clearly changing the story.
I believe you, but it would be nice to have the link to compare. Thanks.