DNA/Forensic Evidence

[colomom]

Let's talk about the DNA/blood/forensics in this thread.

[L L & S]

Has it been reported anywhere that the luggage was tested?

[colomom]

Not that I have seen. I wish they would. I have often wondered if she was moved in a suitcase and the suitcase returned to the apartment. Perhaps that is where the cadaver scent was originating??

[L L & S]

To me, so far, it's the only scenario that works. Where else could they have hidden the body in the time frame of settling the kids to bed and getting ready to meet everyone for dinner? Also, how could someone else in the group NOT see something strange going on with the McCann's during this time? Argg... so many questions.

[BloodshotEye]

Cadaver Scent on Kate and the Keys
I have been trying to search some of the internet forensic sources, to find out more about the liklihood of "transferring" a scent of a cadaver. Not having much luck with the specifics. Are we seriously supposed to believe, that:

1. Kate came in contact with a patient that had been dead for X hours (estimate 2 hours).
Hello Kate, care to tell the PJ that patient's name? ;

2. Kate transferred this cadaver scent to her civilian clothes and to that damn stuffed cat (I refuse to call it, cuddle-cat).
Yo Kate, have you heard of infection control? How about cross-contamination of bacteria & viruses from patient to your children? Will someone please do a culture and sensitivity on that disgusting stuffed cat? ;

3. Some weeks later, and presumably, loads of washing later, Kate continues to transfer this cadaver scent to other articles of clothing and/or blankets, personal items, etc. - all/some of which are taken on vacation.
And yes, I am fully aware that cadaver dogs have made successful "hits" on car interiors that were burned out.

Uh huh. Kate's explanation for this particular piece of evidence, is pretty thin to me. That, or Kate is clueless about cross-contamination and laundry.

[Shazza]

Cadaver Scent on Kate and the Keys
I have been trying to search some of the internet forensic sources, to find out more about the liklihood of "transferring" a scent of a cadaver. Not having much luck with the specifics. Are we seriously supposed to believe, that:

1. Kate came in contact with a patient that had been dead for X hours (estimate 2 hours).
Hello Kate, care to tell the PJ that patient's name? ;

2. Kate transferred this cadaver scent to her civilian clothes and to that damn stuffed cat (I refuse to call it, cuddle-cat).
Yo Kate, have you heard of infection control? How about cross-contamination of bacteria & viruses from patient to your children? Will someone please do a culture and sensitivity on that disgusting stuffed cat? ;

3. Some weeks later, and presumably, loads of washing later, Kate continues to transfer this cadaver scent to other articles of clothing and/or blankets, personal items, etc. - all/some of which are taken on vacation.
And yes, I am fully aware that cadaver dogs have made successful "hits" on car interiors that were burned out.

Uh huh. Kate's explanation for this particular piece of evidence, is pretty thin to me. That, or Kate is clueless about cross-contamination and laundry.
I believe she is clueless and lying.

[BloodshotEye]

Agreed.

I think Kate has the cadaver scent "on" her, because she hugged her daughter, when she realized she died.

[christine2448]

Some forensic scientists have begun to question some of the evidence against the couple - supposedly samples of Madeline's blood found in the boot of the car they hired 25 days after the disappearance, and the "death smell" allegedly found on Mrs McCann's belongings by a police sniffer dog.
There is suspicion that tiny DNA samples obtained from the McCanns' apartment - and compared with the blood found in the car boot - could have been contaminated.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/09/nmcann609.xml

[Shazza]

Agreed.

I think Kate has the cadaver scent "on" her, because she hugged her daughter, when she realized she died.
Now theres a thought that I never thought of. Good onya BloodshotEye.
That would definitely leave Madelaines scent on her.

[CaliKid]

I can easily imagine something happening to Madeleine- a tragic accident from overdosing or reacting to a sedative- and Kate just sitting there holding her dead daughter in her arms for who knows how long, stunned over her passing and trying to figure out what to do. The cuddling for the last time would be the maternal thing to do.

[christine2448]

I can easily imagine something happening to Madeleine- a tragic accident from overdosing or reacting to a sedative- and Kate just sitting there holding her dead daughter in her arms for who knows how long, stunned over her passing and trying to figure out what to do. The cuddling for the last time would be the maternal thing to do.

I can't even begin to imagine. Chills me to the bone.

[CaliKid]

Yes, it is chilling. Dosing your daughter with something just so you can go out and have fun without providing a sitter or leaving her crying is monstrous. Causing her death because of an overdose, allergic reaction or accident is tragic, and covering it up is beyond comprehension. But afterwards, when you know it's too late and you can't take any of it back, my maternal instinct (apart from the cover-up) would be to gather up my child in my arms and just sit with her.

I'm not condoning what they did. I'm just saying I think that's one way Kate got the cadaver scent on her.

[Texana]

Yes, it is chilling. Dosing your daughter with something just so you can go out and have fun without providing a sitter or leaving her crying is monstrous. Causing her death because of an overdose, allergic reaction or accident is tragic, and covering it up is beyond comprehension. But afterwards, when you know it's too late and you can't take any of it back, my maternal instinct (apart from the cover-up) would be to gather up my child in my arms and just sit with her.

I'm not condoning what they did. I'm just saying I think that's one way Kate got the cadaver scent on her.

I agree completely.

And Bloodshot Eye, good points about carrying the toy around work with her.

[BloodshotEye]

DNA Evidence

"The DNA taken from the boot of the car is reportedly a full match of 99 per cent and it's understood police believe Kate McCann was somehow involved in Madeleine's accidental death and that the pair conspired to cover this up".
ref: http://www2.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=188964

A lot of us were pondering the question of a report of the DNA test results being inconclusive and below 60 and 70%. Something like that. And now, they are a 99% match. I don't know what to make of this news report. Perhaps, they were reporting preliminary results yesterday. I dont' get it.

[CaliKid]

A 99% match is a done deal. If they have a 99% Madeleine match in the car, either the parents are done for or the person who was driving the car earlier is.

[Guruinu2]

I am wondering if in the process of collecting evidence, if hair samples of the twins was "inadvertently" obtained and if so, if the presence of sedatives were found? I would think that LI would be very interested in the twins for this reason..

[gord]

A 99% match is a done deal. If they have a 99% Madeleine match in the car, either the parents are done for or the person who was driving the car earlier is.


How is it a done deal ? It is still very possible for minute fragments of Maddys DNA to be all over the place - especialy on the mothers clothes /belongings etc .

As I said on another thread . If Maddys body had been in the car - we are talking a badly decomposed body - then there would have been a mass of DNA evidence - it would not have been cell fragments that I all I see being talked about at the moment

[april4sky]

From the BBC. Contains some info and thoughts about DNA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988485.stm

[englishleigh]

How is it a done deal ? It is still very possible for minute fragments of Maddys DNA to be all over the place - especialy on the mothers clothes /belongings etc .

As I said on another thread . If Maddys body had been in the car - we are talking a badly decomposed body - then there would have been a mass of DNA evidence - it would not have been cell fragments that I all I see being talked about at the moment

Not if she was contained in something, like a trash bag or box or something.

[Texana]

DNA Evidence

"The DNA taken from the boot of the car is reportedly a full match of 99 per cent and it's understood police believe Kate McCann was somehow involved in Madeleine's accidental death and that the pair conspired to cover this up".
ref: http://www2.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=188964

A lot of us were pondering the question of a report of the DNA test results being inconclusive and below 60 and 70%. Something like that. And now, they are a 99% match. I don't know what to make of this news report. Perhaps, they were reporting preliminary results yesterday. I dont' get it.

There are two samples being discussed, and the results of the test are checked and more or less, tested again. It is confusing the way the media reports it, and they make it sound like the match is because the test isn't complete, because of the word "preliminary."

It's preliminary only because it hasn't been verified by separate and second testing, but it's not preliminary because it will match more or less later.

I wish the media would make that clearer.

[wtsn5]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

[gord]

Not if she was contained in something, like a trash bag or box or something.

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye

[englishleigh]

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye

OK, so...maybe it WAS a trash bag. We don't know exactly WHAT the PJ have found, do we? But they have found something, and it was not transference materials, they said they have evidence it came directly from the dead body of Madeleine.

[gord]

OK, so...maybe it WAS a trash bag. We don't know exactly WHAT the PJ have found, do we? But they have found something, and it was not transference materials, they said they have evidence it came directly from the dead body of Madeleine.

at the moment there a lot of conflicting stuff coming from the PJ - I dont think you can distinguish between DNA that comes from a living body or an dead body - DNA is DNA

It would not be that surprising if there was some sort of 99% DNA of Maddys in the car - as has been poited out - but this could be skin / saliva - anything . I have not seen any report that there is direct evidence that proves Maddy's body was in the car - none

In think that if the PJ had some sort of 100% cast iron evidence then the Mcaans would not have left portugal

[englishleigh]

at the moment there a lot of conflicting stuff coming from the PJ - I dont think you can distinguish between DNA that comes from a living body or an dead body - DNA is DNA



I think the PJ has said, it was definite post-mortem DNA...it definitely came from a deceased Maddie, as opposed to a live Maddie.

[gord]

I think the PJ has said, it was definite post-mortem DNA...it definitely came from a deceased Maddie, as opposed to a live Maddie.

this came from the bbc web site

quote

Can investigators establish if the DNA sample comes from someone who was alive or dead?
Unlikely, according to British experts. A DNA profile does not change just because someone dies. You can tell if DNA has degraded but that can happen if, for example, it had been exposed to sunshine.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece

[BloodshotEye]

For the moment, I am entertaining the possibility that this report is accurate (who knows, right?). Meaning, that the results of some type of analytical testing has yielded the conclusion, that this is post mortem DNA. I will speculate that, the DNA sample was/included cellular material, that may exhibit certain changes, post mortem. The DNA sequence is not what suggests the "post mortem state", but rather the cellular material from which the DNA is obtained.

Examples might be: liver, kidney, pancreas, heart tissue, etc.

I read a UK newpaper, absolutely go on a rant about how this is obviously a ridiculous frame up, bla bla bla - as everyone knows that DNA sequencing does not/cannot determine a living vs. a dead person. How lame was that. They conveniently did not address the fact that certain types of cellular material may, indeed, suggest a post mortem state. At that point, I came to the conclusion that the UK papers have an obvious agenda.

[BloodshotEye]

Question: Does anyone have a link to a news source, that specifically reports that FSS is the one that is conducting the sample collection from the car, hotel apartment, etc.? Thanks in advance.

DNA/Forensics Who's Who

1. Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for Portugal’s PolÍcia Judiciária
2. Alipio Ribeiro, head of the investigative Policia Judiciaria, who has been quoted in newspaper articles. eg. "But Alipio Ribeiro, head of the investigative Policia Judiciaria, today revealed the returned tests from the Forensic Science Service (FSS) in Birmingham were not conclusive".

3. Guilhermino Encarnacao - director of the judicial police in the Faro region. Reported that officers responded within 10 minutes of being alerted.

4. Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses - Algarve-based prosecutor.

5. Forensic Science Service (FSS) - Located in Birmingham England. It is reported to be a government-owned laboratory. This U.K. laboratory is reported to be the lab that is conducting the DNA analyticals.

6. Birmingham Lab - the FSS laboratory that is conducting the DNA analyticals.

7. British Sniffer Dogs - Keela and Eddie. The newspapers seem to refer to these dogs as "sniffer dogs" and cadaver dogs.

8. Leicestershire Police - The U.K. police that are are working very closely on the case, reported to be often liaising on a daily basis with the PJ.

Mod: Feel free to move this post, if you like. If you see any errors, don't hesitate to post corrections.

[Texana]

For the moment, I am entertaining the possibility that this report is accurate (who knows, right?). Meaning, that the results of some type of analytical testing has yielded the conclusion, that this is post mortem DNA. I will speculate that, the DNA sample was/included cellular material, that may exhibit certain changes, post mortem. The DNA sequence is not what suggests the "post mortem state", but rather the cellular material from which the DNA is obtained.

Examples might be: liver, kidney, pancreas, heart tissue, etc.

I read a UK newpaper, absolutely go on a rant about how this is obviously a ridiculous frame up, bla bla bla - as everyone knows that DNA sequencing does not/cannot determine a living vs. a dead person. How lame was that. They conveniently did not address the fact that certain types of cellular material may, indeed, suggest a post mortem state. At that point, I came to the conclusion that the UK papers have an obvious agenda.

Which wouldn't be surprising as one little snippet I read this morning said that an attorney for the McCanns or the McCanns themselves would be meeting with media representatives in an effort to get the news articles reported back in their favor again.

[BloodshotEye]

I read that too, Texana. Unbelievable.

The posturing of the McCanns, suggests to me they know they are so far into this, due to their obvious neglect of the children and lying about it. Their "believability quotient" (if there is such a thing), is a big zero. What have they got to loose, by using a media relations specialist?

A Media relations person, or public relations spokes-mouth, would be expensive. If it were me, I would much rather spend the money on the best and most successful private investigator. Seems that there are some people who resort to "deflecting" the scrutiny of the press - away from them, with the aid of a public relations hack. As soon as that happens, I feel that we are more likely to see "spin for sympathy", rather then a parents' quest for the truth.

And while I am on a rant (pardon me), who on earth suggested to these parents that they should spend money traveling the globe, passing out t-shirts and armbands to the pope? That, rather then soliciting and paying for the help of the top 3 private investigative teams who work internationally?

It smells...big time.

[Smurf]

it would have to have been a very secure container - airtight - normal trash bags would let all sort of stuff out which are invisible to the naked eye


What about a Rubbermaid Tote? I don't know if they would have traveled with one but there could have been one in the apartment complex that they emptied out and then buried her in it somewhere nearby.....If they had a key to the church and were able to be alone there-they could have found the tools they needed (shovels etc. in the garden shed) and would have had ample time to get their stories straight and plan what to do from there on out.

[Whiner]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6992372.stm

"The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case."

[CaliKid]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

Let's assume that Madeleine had her hair brushed every day. Probably the twins did too. Even cleaning a hairbrush, you aren't going to get everything out.

It would be process of elimination. Collect the hair in the brush. Collect the hair of every occupant of the apartment. Analzye the hair. Match out samples to known occupants- the rest of the family. Whatever is a close match to the children, but not an exact match, must be Madeleine's.

[BloodshotEye]

Smurf, that is an excellent question. I wonder if people at the University of Tennessee have tested various containers for permeability of cadaver scent. Cadaver scent being:
- Hydrogen sulfide
- Ammonia
- Mercaptans
- Ptomaines (any of several toxic bases formed by decarboxylation of an amino acid, often by bacterial action), such as the following),
* Cadaverine (a foul-smelling nitrogenous base),
* Pentamethylenediamine, produced by decarboxylation of lysine. It is produced in decaying protein material by the action of bacteria, particularly species of Vibrio.
* Putrescine/Tetra-methylene-diamine. A polyamine first found in decaying animal tissues but now known to occur in almost all tissues and in cultures of certain bacteria. It is formed by decarboxylation of ornithine and is itself a precursor of Spermidine
* Muscarine
* Neurine (A poisonous ptomaine with a fishy odor, formed by dehydration of choline during putrefaction and found in decaying fish, fungi, and also in the brain and in many other normal tissues; used in biochemical research).
* Ptomatropine [ptomaine + atropine] (A poison from putrid sausages and the viscera of corpses of those dead from typhoid fever; it has effects somewhat like those of atropine).

And then we've got those gasses produced in "fermentation", when anaerobic conditions exist (Possibly under water or an airtight container?).


I think, given the right container as you suggest, like a very tightly fitting plastic lid/bin - it might buy you a couple of days. Maybe 3 days. If the container were something that was promoted as being "water tight", such as those that hold expensive camera and video equipment, and have a gasket around the lid and box opening, you might be able to store a body for a bit longer. Examples of these containers are those under the brand name "Pelican". If the container were metal, with the requisite gaskets (to prevent out-gassing), putrefaction might take even longer, as the metal often inhibits microbial activity; thereby "buying" someone more days in which to dispose of a body.

Wow. That would be a great thesis, if anyone from U of T Forensic Anthropology Facilty is reading this thread ;]

[Smurf]

Well all of that just went right over my little head....

I was just thinking maybe she was transported or buried in this type of container as they are easy to find in most locations like the apartment complex or the church.

[BloodshotEye]

Sorry Smurf, that I went off on a tangent. I do that often. Don't mind me ;]

I simply expanded your excellent theory, just a bit. You got me thinking, of how we can use plastic snap-lid containers (Tupperware) to stow something in the refrig. These containers seem to contain food odors very well.

Trust your instincts, Smurf. You have visualized a simple, yet kind of ingenious scenario. Those are the best. A rubbermaid-like container, large enough to contain a body, yet compact enough to be transported or buried. It is not an exotic type of container. Found all over.

And the practicality of using such a container? It just might contain the odor of putrefaction, such that it is not really detectable by people. At least, they probably don't know what they are smelling at that point, unless they know what a dead body smells like.

Stay with it Smurf - it is a very good theory.

[Smurf]

thank you, most of my posts are basically boring and already been hashed out elsewhere.

[Smurf]

BYW; I guess I don't really know what a dead body smells like; unless it smells like that dead mouse or whatever that we can't locate out in the shed.

Or would it smell like that whiff of awful smell you get when you visit an old nursing home- Not the new ones with the good a/c and fresh paint smell but the older-low income ones.

[BloodshotEye]

Smurf: I would say that it is going to smell more like your dead mouse. But many times stronger.

Have you have ever encountered a larger animal, such as a large raccoon or coyote, that was injured somehow, and scurried off into the bushes, and died there? Man. The stench cuts through the air like a knife. Our reaction is so reflexive. Meaning, that our brain appears to send this signal to the autonomic nervous system (responsible for blinking eyes, swallowing, respiration, etc.), that stops you from breathing in air. You would be able to smell the putrifaction, if you walked by a house, and a person had died, and had simply remained in the house.

If someone is buried in a shallow grave, a person would be able to smell the putrification for a time. The shorter and longer limits of this time interval would be dependant upon the conditions. And then, at some point, there is nothing more to ferment or putrify, and the odor would likely become less strong over a significant amount of time. It might be easily mistaken for rotting food, garbage, sewage, rotting fish at the bottom of a stagnent pond...that sort of thing.

I marvel at how the Turkey Vultures seem to sniff out these dead animals, considering their crusing altitude can be pretty significant (they look like little specks up in the sky). When I see them take on that watchful flight pattern, I know that I can find something dead, located directly below that tight "circle" they have defined.

[Betsy]

My kids found a dead bird and wanted to bury it, so we put it in a tupperware container and buried it in the garden (complete with head stone and date!).

Within a day, I could smell it whenever I was in the backyard. It was awful. And it was a tiny bird.

On garbage day, it got thrown out (my kids do not know this). I felt so bad for the garbage man....

[colomom]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482593&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

DNA experts hit back after McCanns challenge 'pathetic' evidence

Doubts have been raised over the DNA samples found in the car, but experts at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham are confident that they will get accurate results. This is despite the failure of the Portugese police to protect this evidence in the weeks after Madeleine went missing

The forensic experts are also fully aware of the similarities in the DNA of Madeleine and her siblings who were carried in the Renault Scenic along with several other blood relatives.

[Morag]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

Since the mother was over 35 when her children were born, it seems likely that either CVS or amnio or other tests would have been done during the pregnancy. Although the McCanns may never have considered terminating a pregnancy regardless of the results, tests to prepare for a newborn with problems would be logical. I'll bet Madeleine's DNA profile is on file somewhere (and the twins' also).

[ceeaura]

I have a question - how did the lab or the police get Maddies DNA, don't you need a body. Something that only she would have used. Lets face it she was 3/4 whatever hairbrush or toothbrush she used might have one of her parents or sibilings DNA on them as well. I know I would be hard pressed in my house to find something only my 4 yr old used that had not come in contact with her brother or sister.
Any ideas?

I wonder if they had a clip of Madeleines hair from her first hair cut in a baby book ?Could that even be used or would you need the root of the hair?

I know I have a lock of hair from all 3 of my childrens first hair cuts tied with a ribbon in a little plastic ziplock bag and taped in their baby book.

[Texana]

I wonder if they had a clip of Madeleines hair from her first hair cut in a baby book ?Could that even be used or would you need the root of the hair?

I know I have a lock of hair from all 3 of my childrens first hair cuts tied with a ribbon in a little plastic ziplock bag and taped in their baby book.

Remember you could have the DNA for the other children given and identify the one that was different as being related...but not the other children. Process of elimination.

Once they start losing teeth if the Tooth Fairy keeps a little stash...there you go as well.

[Dr. Creepin]

Keela, South Yorkshire Constabulary’s cadaver dog, praised as the top-dog in the WORLD, at detecting a corpse, is now a useless cur. It can’t tell the difference between a dead body and a dirty nappy. Clan McCann said, “These dogs are not the super detectives they are cracked up to be” and “There is good legal work being done on the inaccuracy of the dogs.”

Most parents dispose of soiled nappies by placing them into a polythene bag and depositing them in a bin, but Kate just chucked the stinking urine-soaked, faeces-encrusted things into the boot of the car along with Maddy’s pyjamas and drove around... That explains the DNA! No wonder there is MRSA super-bug in hospitals if this is the hygiene standard of doctors!

[BloodshotEye]

Well, at least that's what their spin-master has suggested that they say; or that someone suggest it FOR them, within the context of the daily press relases.

How ridiculous.

So now we are supposed to withdraw our anger at them having abandoned their children at night, in a first floor room, in a foreign country; simply because the spin is suggesting that "they are a busy, kinda quirky - slobs". I guess that their PR hack-for-hire, decided that was a decent trade-off: let the people think you are slobs, rather than murderers.

[Texana]

Well, at least that's what their spin-master has suggested that they say; or that someone suggest it FOR them, within the context of the daily press relases.

How ridiculous.

So now we are supposed to withdraw our anger at them having abandoned their children at night, in a first floor room, in a foreign country; simply because the spin is suggesting that "they are a busy, kinda quirky - slobs". I guess that their PR hack-for-hire, decided that was a decent trade-off: let the people think you are slobs, rather than murderers.

We should add to that, people-trusting (it felt safe!) chicken-carcass-totin' professionals.

[KR2tonenow]

We should add to that, people-trusting (it felt safe!) chicken-carcass-totin' professionals.

That's funny! The McCann's are going to try everything they can, to take all of us who believe they are guilty off their tails.

When they start critizing these dogs, then you really know we have them.
Cadaver dogs are trained to find cadavers, duh, not living and breathing humans. Then we can assume that Kate is dead, if the cadaver scent was on her. Does she want us to believe that???

I agree with the poster here. Surgical gloves, hospital clothes and showers work to get off the scent of the dead. Then we can assume that all professionals working in ER, surgery, and nursing smell like death. Wow, the dogs would be going nuts all the time!

I am so tired of their lies! I wish PL could find Maddy. Then the police could really charge them!:mad:

[Texana]

We should add to the list, "cadaver-smelling professionals."

I find it interesting that the McCanns' PR constantly attacks the means of finding the evidence, or offers alternative explanations, but not the actual evidence itself.

The PJ is incompetent and the DNA tests therefore flawed (although there were TWO independent tests run at separate and highly reputable crime labs,)

The dogs were just sniff-happy mutts (instead of being highly trained professionals in their own right, who are highly compensated for their skill and world renowned for it.)

Etc, etc, etc.

[colomom]

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=24847&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

DNA II - Are These Results Real?

[Barnaby]

We should add to the list, "cadaver-smelling professionals."

I find it interesting that the McCanns' PR constantly attacks the means of finding the evidence, or offers alternative explanations, but not the actual evidence itself.

The PJ is incompetent and the DNA tests therefore flawed (although there were TWO independent tests run at separate and highly reputable crime labs,)

The dogs were just sniff-happy mutts (instead of being highly trained professionals in their own right, who are highly compensated for their skill and world renowned for it.)

Etc, etc, etc.
Eddie & keela are not "sniff happy mutts" They are highly trained animals who located a body in Northern Ireland & who identified the victims blood on the murderers car even though the car had been burned!

[Squishified]

Eddie & keela are not "sniff happy mutts" They are highly trained animals who located a body in Northern Ireland & who identified the victims blood on the murderers car even though the car had been burned!

I think Texana was saying what some of the McCann PR is implying.

[Trino]

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=24847&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

DNA II - Are These Results Real?


I think the last sentence in the article is revealing: "What I would say is this: If this report is correct and DNA established to be Madeleine's was indeed found in the hire car, in such amounts that it is not reasonable to conclude that it came from secondary transfer, then the McCanns have a hard job of explaining to do. I'll leave it at that."

[Barnaby]

I think Texana was saying what some of the McCann PR is implying.
Oh God I am so sorry Texana, I see that now, I misread it sorry again.
Thanks for pointing that out Squishfield.

[CaliKid]

Beachy on the mirror forums does an admirable job explaining the lab testing and results. I am so hoping that when everything is collected, there will be no doubt in any mind of those involved in the case, British as well as Portuguese, of guilt. My biggest worry is politics and that because the McCanns have courted high-ranking officials in the UK, pressure will be put on the Portuguese court system to refuse to arrest and put them on trial without a body.

[Texana]

Oh God I am so sorry Texana, I see that now, I misread it sorry again.
Thanks for pointing that out Squishfield.

:laugh: No apology necessary~!

An exceptional dog like Keely is more reliable than a human eyewitness. Humans are notoriously poor at identifying people. Dogs have no agendas or egos.

[Barnaby]

:laugh: No apology necessary~!

An exceptional dog like Keely is more reliable than a human eyewitness. Humans are notoriously poor at identifying people. Dogs have no agendas or egos.
Thanks Texana & agree with what you say!

[Tuba]

If the report in the Daily Mail is to be believed, cadaverine & putrescine in some quantity was found in the rear of the Renault Scenic. That in itself is more than ominous but it has also been identified to Madeleine according to today's news piece. But even if the testing had not obtained that i.d. or had not proceeded to that point, the finding of corpse fluids in the tire well is damning. A month and a half ago, we read of the same findings but we do know retesting has been ongoing ever since. This may be an accurate report of the result. The PJ should have got this before the news source did, however and I'm sure they did. Why the McCanns are not to be reinterviewed because the public prosecutor finds too little evidence is a puzzle. He would not have made such a big announcement knowing the cadaver evidence was arriving & could overturn his assessment. He must know the results. All of the news agencies should be reporting on this today and tonight.

[Texana]

If the report in the Daily Mail is to be believed, cadaverine & putrescine in some quantity was found in the rear of the Renault Scenic. That in itself is more than ominous but it has also been identified to Madeleine according to today's news piece. But even if the testing had not obtained that i.d. or had not proceeded to that point, the finding of corpse fluids in the tire well is damning. A month and a half ago, we read of the same findings but we do know retesting has been ongoing ever since. This may be an accurate report of the result. The PJ should have got this before the news source did, however and I'm sure they did. Why the McCanns are not to be reinterviewed because the public prosecutor finds too little evidence is a puzzle. He would not have made such a big announcement knowing the cadaver evidence was arriving & could overturn his assessment. He must know the results. All of the news agencies should be reporting on this today and tonight.

Exactly Tuba!

And as you said--finding corpse fluids in the tire well--damning.

Nicely said.

[daffodil]

Exactly Tuba!

And as you said--finding corpse fluids in the tire well--damning.

Nicely said.

I have to agree and it turns out to be true I will never trust my instincts again :bang:

[Barnaby]

I would just love to know if it is all true!

[Squishified]

I would just love to know if it is all true!

I honestly have no idea anymore what is fact and what is rumor in this case. It's enough to make anyone's head spin. :crazy:

[colomom]

I have to agree and it turns out to be true I will never trust my instincts again :bang:

Daffodil,

I hope you aren't serious. I have done nothing but question my "instincts" since the beginning. I am fairly certain of my theory but all it takes is for someone to raise a good point regarding a scenario that doesn't fit my theory and I am doubting myself again.

The thought of another human capable of what some people think the McCanns may have done in PDL is abhorent and a huge dissapointment to those of us that believe in the basic goodness in all people. It is not easy thinking that someone could be capable of such dishonesty and disregard.

If I take my "instincts" out of the equation and examine the evidence (it is what it is) then I am drawn to my conclusions. Can't help it.

I also fear that my "instincts" may be inaccurate because, for me, the thought of parental involvement is easier for me to "wrap my brain around" than the thought of that little girl being in the hands of a pedophile.

Don't doubt your instincts, if we ever find out what truly happened we can look back and probably find valid reasons for why we felt the way we did. I will never doubt my instincts but I may never trust people in the same way again. Until I am proven wrong, my instincts are all I have.

[Tuba]

http://www.newsdeskspecial.co.uk/2007/11/maddie-search-m.html

Another reversal of leaked information. Now the PJ plans to close the case in 7 weeks unless some new discoveries are made. The testing from FSS is in and is unhelpful according to this latest report.

[colomom]

http://www.newsdeskspecial.co.uk/2007/11/maddie-search-m.html

Another reversal of leaked information. Now the PJ plans to close the case in 7 weeks unless some new discoveries are made. The testing from FSS is in and is unhelpful according to this latest report.

http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/

Madeleine: "We are not going to drop the investigation"

"It's ridiculous. Even we do not have the power to drop the investigation ... This is a manipulation of the whole piece, "says an official source of the Judicial Police, confronted by SOS Madeleine with the information disclosed by the Daily Mail quoting - turn the Sunday Mirror-come Portuguese police who is preparing to leave the investigation to Christmas.

"I can assure you that there is not a single police inspector who could have them this assertion", "confirms the same source:" we depend on the Public Ministry, PJ has no authority to decide to abandon the investigation, especially at the stage where he is now. "

(continues)

(translation posted on the Mirror board: http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=25148)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/Tennis_2_32194.gif

[gord]

If the report in the Daily Mail is to be believed, cadaverine & putrescine in some quantity was found in the rear of the Renault Scenic. That in itself is more than ominous but it has also been identified to Madeleine according to today's news piece. But even if the testing had not obtained that i.d. or had not proceeded to that point, the finding of corpse fluids in the tire well is damning. A month and a half ago, we read of the same findings but we do know retesting has been ongoing ever since. This may be an accurate report of the result. The PJ should have got this before the news source did, however and I'm sure they did. Why the McCanns are not to be reinterviewed because the public prosecutor finds too little evidence is a puzzle. He would not have made such a big announcement knowing the cadaver evidence was arriving & could overturn his assessment. He must know the results. All of the news agencies should be reporting on this today and tonight.

If they have found this much DNA / blood / cadaverine /putrescine - 100% linked to a dead Madeline then they have a case - The Mccaans should be arrested immediatly and charged . It would be cast iron

The fact that they havent and are still not been charged maked me belive that they do not have this type of evidence - or it is contaminated

The FSS have been going over this for the last 3 to 4 months - I am not a scientist but from what I have read it shouldnt take this long

[Tuba]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/19001/Maddie-DNA-found-in-Murat-house/

Interesting statement here, that the DNA at Murat's villa matched the DNA in the hire car. Anyway, this is one of the reports that hair, body fluids and DNA belonging to Madeleine were found at Villa Liliana.

[Tuba]

No DNA from Murat that I have read about ever found in 5A but you will remember that a stranger's DNA was lifted from the McCann flat. Fox News has reproduced the full page from The Times (of London) on this sample. As far as I know the mystery was not resolved, the man not identified.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277163,00.html

[Barnaby]

mmmm Very interesting Tuba, Murat was not in the apartment but madeleine was at his house! Why haven't they hauled him back in for questioning?

[Tuba]

The London papers continue to say Murat is due to be requestioned but, as with the doctors, no follow-up.

[Barnaby]

I wish they would get on with it!

[Tuba]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/24389/Police-No-evidence-Maddie-died-in-apartment

I thought the Portuguese lab had completed its analysis some time ago but it appears to have been running parallel to the FSS at Birmingham. What about all of those leaks purporting that Madeleine died at home on the night of 3 May! Those leaked from Portuguese "sources".

[Barnaby]

I don't know Tuba, it is becoming more ridiculous by the minute!

[CaliKid]

You would expect strange DNA in a holiday rental apartment- the McCanns were only there for a week, and many unknown people were probably inside at some point- other vacationers, maids, etc. However, if the DNA in question was mixed with Madeleine's or was something like a fingerprint in her blood, that's different.

[Tuba]

When the stranger DNA was first found the announcement was that it was where it did not belong, should not have been. It may have been on items of hers. There was not enough blood from anyone for there to be a fingerprint in it. Very little blood was found in 5A. One drop on a window sill, some blood on a wall that belonged to another (male) tenant and then some fine spray that the dogs detected but that we wouldn't have seen. We also don't know the nature of the DNA vehicle. As far as I know it was never disclosed but probably not blood. I say that because the PJ discussed blood fairly freely.

[Tuba]

More than on the jeans, the DNA from the Faro airport bag was on the fleece jacket and at FSS they are running it against the DNA of known sexual deviants, predators, molesters. The index doesn't extend to Portuguese perverts, unfortunately, only in country.

[Tuba]

About a month ago, maybe 5 wks. back, the PJ called in British tourists in an effort to collect evidence in the form of clothing, voluntary DNA samples, fingerprints and more. These travelers are not witnesses but simply present on the scene at the time. PJ wanted to include or eliminate them in cross checks with other findings at the crime scenes. The tourists are free to speak about their experience in May and at this call up but there has been no follow-up in the news. Was the demand even worthwhile? Maybe the Portuguese media has covered this from the PJ side of the matter but I haven't seen that.

[Tuba]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1111_maddie.shtml

This report concerns two hairs being analysed at FSS. They were found on the adult clothes in the Faro airport bag and have no tie to any Madeleine DNA. Since the DNA said to "link to Madeleine" is weak in correlation, it is doubtful the bag is part of a kidnapping but the lab is running the DNA against known offenders. The news article also mentions that the McCanns are expecting to be re-interviewed at the request of the PJ but in the last 2 wks., the public prosecutor has said that will not occur until there is stronger evidence of their involvement. Again, contrasting & contradictory stories!

[Tuba]

http://express.lineone.net/posts/view/24389/-No-evidence-Maddie-died-in-apartment This headline is only 4 days old but there is word this weekend that the PJ know or are convinced that Madeleine died in 5A on 3 May. In other words, despite lack of evidence, that belief is held fast. I could accept that if some explanation were given. PJ does assert that the times and places given by the dinner party are crucial and are inconsistent, which leads me to believe PJ is hanging absolutely the total theory of the case on what comes out of an alignment of the Tapas accounts. That is beyond sketchy. Those descriptions can be mashed into such conformity that a preferred line of thinking is supported but no one will be fooled. Better to admit that facts are thin on the ground, that precious time & evidence was lost and that it's too late to reassemble this broken construction. I don't believe this was a perfect crime. Someone will make an unexpected discovery by persistence or by chance. Until then, it seems to me a mistake to strain after conclusions. We have seen nothing but serial conclusionary & sensational headlines, each one defeating the last. This buys time & feeds the public appetite but does nothing to advance the case and honor the victim, Madeleine.

[Pinkhammer]

I agree that it was not the perfect crime. The perp or perps may have already confessed to a close and trusted confidante. It is only a matter of time before that person, conscience-stricken, comes forward with the truth.

Meanwhile, we are treated to daily contradictions. There have been more red herrings thrown out in this case than are tossed to the seals by the zookeeper at the National Zoo.

[Salem]

Okay - I know everyone does not really want to talk about this - but I can't stop asking why has not Maddie been ruled out as Baby Grace by DNA yet? I don't understand. I know the police believe this baby is not Maddie, but they won't come out with a DEFINITE determination.

Do you think that is because the story may receive additional press coverage if it is lined to Maddie's name? Do you think there may be some other reason?

Have the police looked to see if Mr. McCann went to Target or WalMart when he came to visit the US back in July or August? Maybe his real purpose for coming to the US was to go shopping.....

It just doesn't make sense that it has not been Officially, Once and for All Determined that Maddie is not Baby Grace.

Salem

[Pinkhammer]

As horrible as Gerry is, I don't think he is callous and ghoulish enough to tote around a decomposing body across the Atlantic Ocean.

A better gambit would be to hire a private pilot to fly him out near the coast of Portugal to drop off his "package" in the ocean.

The prevailing currents being what they are, the body would not be carried west to FL, but rather north to Ireland (I think.)

[Barnaby]

Tuba, Do you have the link to the article that you found saying that the paynes did not attend the 6 months memorial service please. TIA!

[Texana]

Okay - I know everyone does not really want to talk about this - but I can't stop asking why has not Maddie been ruled out as Baby Grace by DNA yet? I don't understand. I know the police believe this baby is not Maddie, but they won't come out with a DEFINITE determination.

Do you think that is because the story may receive additional press coverage if it is lined to Maddie's name? Do you think there may be some other reason?

Have the police looked to see if Mr. McCann went to Target or WalMart when he came to visit the US back in July or August? Maybe his real purpose for coming to the US was to go shopping.....

It just doesn't make sense that it has not been Officially, Once and for All Determined that Maddie is not Baby Grace.
Salem

Age difference and size. Baby Grace is 2-3 years old. Also if they already have the DNA results for Maddie it does not take that long to take Grace's (I'm sure that was one of the first things done) and compare the results.

The authorities really made it clear that they ruled out Madeleine McCann it is the press clinging to a little bit of "if" just to keep the press going. They are being very hush hush with the actual results, though, I think they also want to not alert any of the true suspects for Baby Grace yet.

[Tuba]

Tuba, Do you have the link to the article that you found saying that the paynes did not attend the 6 months memorial service please. TIA!

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=26363

This was not my source but you will find the Paynes if you scroll down a few entries on the above page. They did not go to the memorial at the beginning of this month. It was somewhere in the Mirror that I learned that when we were curious as to which couple was not there.

[Barnaby]

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=26363

This was not my source but you will find the Paynes if you scroll down a few entries on the above page. They did not go to the memorial at the beginning of this month. It was somewhere in the Mirror that I learned that when we were curious as to which couple was not there.
Thanks Tuba, if you come across the original please let me know, someone on another forum wants it.

[Barnaby]

As horrible as Gerry is, I don't think he is callous and ghoulish enough to tote around a decomposing body across the Atlantic Ocean.

A better gambit would be to hire a private pilot to fly him out near the coast of Portugal to drop off his "package" in the ocean.

The prevailing currents being what they are, the body would not be carried west to FL, but rather north to Ireland (I think.)
Agreed Pink & I think everyone is forgetting that all suitcases are scanned, a body would be visible I am sure.

[Texana]

I don't think there was much moving around of Madeleine.

I think she was put in one place, and then moved for some reason to a more secure place. We will probably not ever find her unless someone confesses.

She was wrapped in a blanket, I think. JMO.

[CaliKid]

And maybe not moved at all if it can be proven that one of the Tapas group rented the same car before Madeleine's disappearance.

[gord]

And maybe not moved at all if it can be proven that one of the Tapas group rented the same car before Madeleine's disappearance.

that would be such an easy thing to prove - hire car companies keep detailed records they have to -


anyway that wasnt why I posted in this thread

I dont know if anyone has followed the Meredith Kercher case in Italy - The girl was murdered by persons known and unknown in Italy ( google the name ) The point is that they have managed to secure DNA evidence within days to apprehend all the suspects - it didnt take that long - so it is possible

[Pinkhammer]

Salem...news on Baby Grace today, if you haven't heard. Her grandmother recognized her photo. Parents are divorced...mom claims a "social worker" from someplace took the child and didn't return her. Father is giving DNA sample to police to see if it is his three-year-old.

http://www.bloggernews.net/111873

Baby Grace may be Riley.

[CaliKid]

that would be such an easy thing to prove - hire car companies keep detailed records they have to -


anyway that wasnt why I posted in this thread

I dont know if anyone has followed the Meredith Kercher case in Italy - The girl was murdered by persons known and unknown in Italy ( google the name ) The point is that they have managed to secure DNA evidence within days to apprehend all the suspects - it didnt take that long - so it is possible

But in Meredith's case they had a dead body, and it didn't take long to look at her housemates and friends.

[april4sky]

Madeleine McCann's mother takes drug test

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/23/wmaddy223.xml

The McCanns' two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, have also been tested to prove they were never given sedatives, after claims that Madeleine may have died of an accidental overdose.
Detectives were said to believe that the McCanns, who are both doctors, may have sedated their children to ensure they slept while they went to dinner with friends at a nearby restaurant.

The drug tests, which were conducted in September, form part of a dossier of evidence compiled by the McCanns' legal team to demolish the police case against them.
Edward Smethurst, the lawyer coordinating the McCanns' defence, said: "Hair grows by about a centimetre a month so if you have eight centimetres of hair, you can test for drugs going back eight months.
"With the appropriate, fully-accredited experts, hair samples were taken from Sean, Amelie and Kate and the conclusion was no evidence of sedatives or drugs were found.

[Pinkhammer]

In Meredith's case, rape was involved.

Rape=lots of DNA evidence.

No comparison at all to the killing of Madeleine.