"Damning Proof Found"

[poco]

London - Portuguese police say they have found firm DNA evidence that the body of Madeleine McCann was in the family's hire car five weeks after she went missing, sources have told Sky News.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2180910,00.html

[colomom]

So this means that Maddie was absolutely in this rental car. Guaranteed.

Therefore, if the car was rented by the McCann's 5 weeks after she went missing then:

A. She was still alive 5 weeks after the reported abduction (doubtful, very doubtful).

B. Her body was moved in the car 5 weeks after she was reported missing (more likely).

C. Whoever had the car at the time she went missing, had her in the car with them (not as likely).

So, who had the car at the time she went missing?
What type of DNA are we talking about? Blood? Hair?

Did I miss anything?

[englishleigh]

Nope, Heather, that about covers it.

Sounds like the McCanns are TOAST.

[T-Rex]

They all sound so unlikely to me.... Could the DNA be from urine on something she wet previously?

[Jdee]

I have to throw this one out there... Was their car left where anyone could access it? Was it left unlocked? What IF the so called 'kidnapper' got access to it in the dark of night and scattered Madeleine's DNA throughout it?
Just a thought....

[CaliKid]

I'm going to throw out something else. I have read unsubstantiated rumors that the car the McCanns used after Madeleine's disappearance was the same car as the one Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner used when they were in Portugal in May.

[BloodshotEye]

Holy crap!

[delilah]

So this means that Maddie was absolutely in this rental car. Guaranteed.

Therefore, if the car was rented by the McCann's 5 weeks after she went missing then:

A. She was still alive 5 weeks after the reported abduction (doubtful, very doubtful).

B. Her body was moved in the car 5 weeks after she was reported missing (more likely).

C. Whoever had the car at the time she went missing, had her in the car with them (not as likely).

So, who had the car at the time she went missing?
What type of DNA are we talking about? Blood? Hair?

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you missed out

D. Madeleine's DNA from before she disappeared was transferred into the hire car on other items - clothing, toys, bags, etc

I don't think it's possible to find DNA evidence that 'proves' Madeleine was in the car. If the DNA definitely came from blood that would be much more significant, but I'm presuming this could be DNA from hair or dead skin. We drop our DNA all over the place every day. We're talking here about what are almost certainly minute traces, if indeed the traces HAVE been found (all rumour, conjecture, nothing confirmed yet). There's therefore a strong likelihood that if minute DNA traces have been found from hair or skin it's probably a result of transference.

[Texana]

So this means that Maddie was absolutely in this rental car. Guaranteed.

Therefore, if the car was rented by the McCann's 5 weeks after she went missing then:

A. She was still alive 5 weeks after the reported abduction (doubtful, very doubtful).

B. Her body was moved in the car 5 weeks after she was reported missing (more likely).

C. Whoever had the car at the time she went missing, had her in the car with them (not as likely).

So, who had the car at the time she went missing?
What type of DNA are we talking about? Blood? Hair?

Did I miss anything?

I agree, although I'll add "D."

D. Whoever had the car at the time Maddie went missing, either used the car themselves to move her, or loaned the car to someone else to do so.

[mic730]

I want to know what's in the transcripts of the emails and tapped phone calls.
As I bet we all do.

[CaliKid]

I'm sure that the PJ have already been to the car rental agency and collected the rental records for the car to see who used it.

[Rino]

Yes, you missed out

D. Madeleine's DNA from before she disappeared was transferred into the hire car on other items - clothing, toys, bags, etc

I don't think it's possible to find DNA evidence that 'proves' Madeleine was in the car. If the DNA definitely came from blood that would be much more significant, but I'm presuming this could be DNA from hair or dead skin. We drop our DNA all over the place every day. We're talking here about what are almost certainly minute traces, if indeed the traces HAVE been found (all rumour, conjecture, nothing confirmed yet). There's therefore a strong likelihood that if minute DNA traces have been found from hair or skin it's probably a result of transference.

But to make your point even more curious, Kate herself claimed it was impossible for Maddies DNA to be in the car, for the fact that it was hired after the abduction. As a Dr. or even an educated adult in this day and era I find her denials odd.

[colomom]

Yes, you missed out

D. Madeleine's DNA from before she disappeared was transferred into the hire car on other items - clothing, toys, bags, etc

I don't think it's possible to find DNA evidence that 'proves' Madeleine was in the car. If the DNA definitely came from blood that would be much more significant, but I'm presuming this could be DNA from hair or dead skin. We drop our DNA all over the place every day. We're talking here about what are almost certainly minute traces, if indeed the traces HAVE been found (all rumour, conjecture, nothing confirmed yet). There's therefore a strong likelihood that if minute DNA traces have been found from hair or skin it's probably a result of transference.

According to this report:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283359,00.html

"It shows, as far as they are concerned, the presence of Madeleine's body in the car five weeks after she disappeared."

He continued: "The evidence suggests very strongly that it was not that her DNA had been transferred from clothing or from a cuddly toy.

"The allegation is that the DNA shows a full match of 99%. According to police, it shows the presence of Madeleine's body in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she disappeared."

Looks like transferrence is not the case.

[colomom]

But to make your point even more curious, Kate herself claimed it was impossible for Maddies DNA to be in the car, for the fact that it was hired after the abduction. As a Dr. or even an educated adult in this day and era I find her denials odd.

VERY good point. She was not able to put together a list like mine? Maybe I should be a doctor. :rolleyes:

[colomom]

I agree, although I'll add "D."

D. Whoever had the car at the time Maddie went missing, either used the car themselves to move her, or loaned the car to someone else to do so.

C. Actually covers that except for the loaning of the car. I think I mentioned that possibility in my timeline theory of the night in question back on the main thread. Cali, where did you see that information about R. O'B and JT having the car? Just curious. I would love to track that down.

Jdee, don't think an abductor would have chosen that particular car(to spread DNA in) unless it was tied to one of the Tapas 9, because if it was not connected to one of them the police would have no reason to search it.

So, either the car was rented by one of the Tapas 7 and they moved her body prior to the McCanns renting it OR the McCanns had access to it prior to the 5 week rental date, perhaps by borrowing it, OR they moved her body 5 weeks after her dissapearance.

Which seems most likely?

**keep in mind, the DNA was in the trunk, that pretty much rules out her being alive 5 weeks later because people probably not move someone in the trunk if they were alive...agreed?**

[Wudge]

No facts, no corroboration, pure innuendo and speculation. Wait for corroborated facts.

[robinparten]

OK, I have not really followed this case all that closely until the last week when the allegations against the parents hit the news. I have been really unwilling to believe the parents could be involved. I kept thinking about the Van Dams in San Diego, when their daughter went missing and they were raked over the coals about their swinging lifestyle, etc, and made to look responsible for her disappearance, when in fact their neighbor had abducted, raped and murdered Danielle.

But this news about Maddy's DNA leaves me floored. What kind of freaks would carry the body of their daughter around for weeks after they killed her? How would that work? They were surrounded by people almost all the time after her disappearance - how could they have snuck the body to the car? And do they still have it? It would have been almost impossible to dispose of it after the case went public, there were too many people around them. This is really mind-blowing to me.

[Rino]

Madeleine: Full DNA match 'proves body was in boot of McCanns' hire car'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

[Jdee]

What sort of DNA was it that proves she was in that trunk of that car? Couldn't just her DNA have been in there without her body actually being in there?

[aj1020]

But this news about Maddy's DNA leaves me floored. What kind of freaks would carry the body of their daughter around for weeks after they killed her? How would that work? They were surrounded by people almost all the time after her disappearance - how could they have snuck the body to the car? And do they still have it? It would have been almost impossible to dispose of it after the case went public, there were too many people around them. This is really mind-blowing to me.

Ditto. The thought of the McCann's toting their departed daughter's cadaver around for 5 weeks, then putting her in the trunk of a rental car makes me want to throw up. Seriously. If indeed Maddie's poor body was in there DURING the 5 weeks before the McCann's had it, I would speculate that one of the Tapa's group had to have rented it before the McCann's.

But seriously, she was SOMEWHERE during those 5 weeks the McCann's were jet-setting around the globe, and that is a horrible thought. Where is she now?!?!

[Jdee]

Good point.. So just where did they 'stash her' while they went to meet the Pope or hang in the US trying to get in to to see The First Lady?
When you spell it out it all just rings stupid to me or complete insanity...

[TaylorJ4]

I think they placed her body somewhere after she died, then when the search got too close to the hidig place, one (or both) of the parents used the rental car to move her body somewhere else.

[philamena]

This is the most concrete evidence I've heard so far but I'm still not ready to accuse the parents yet.

[colomom]

No facts, no corroboration, pure innuendo and speculation. Wait for corroborated facts.

What would be the point of sleuthing then??

Sleuth=detective...to detect...to figure out the truth...

If you have the facts then you have the truth!!

[Taximom]

Well, her decomposing body had to be somewhere where the cadaver dogs couldn't follow the scent to. Where did they stash her, and cover that smell too?

[Barnaby]

Well, her decomposing body had to be somewhere where the cadaver dogs couldn't follow the scent to. Where did they stash her, and cover that smell too?
I think that her body would have been buried before the cadaver dogs arrived

[Jdee]

Very good point Taxi! Did the LE take the dogs to the cliffs and walk them all around?
IF Madeleine was moved in that car then her body HAD to be somewhere between the point of her death and the point she was put in the car and moved. All that moving around of a corpse would spread the scent (and DNA) I would think to the area she was or still is.
I am having a very hard time with the 'kept body' or stashed body for weeks until they moved her.
Turns the whole thing in to the macabre.

[Elphaba]

well, they are drs... they do have medical knowledge that could lend to keeping her ferried away until there was a convenient time to move her.

[philamena]

Well, her decomposing body had to be somewhere where the cadaver dogs couldn't follow the scent to. Where did they stash her, and cover that smell too?


Ditto!
There's no way they could hide the scent....is there?
Unless she was put into the ocean.

[colomom]

OK, I have not really followed this case all that closely until the last week when the allegations against the parents hit the news. I have been really unwilling to believe the parents could be involved. I kept thinking about the Van Dams in San Diego, when their daughter went missing and they were raked over the coals about their swinging lifestyle, etc, and made to look responsible for her disappearance, when in fact their neighbor had abducted, raped and murdered Danielle.

But this news about Maddy's DNA leaves me floored. What kind of freaks would carry the body of their daughter around for weeks after they killed her? How would that work? They were surrounded by people almost all the time after her disappearance - how could they have snuck the body to the car? And do they still have it? It would have been almost impossible to dispose of it after the case went public, there were too many people around them. This is really mind-blowing to me.

The McCann's did not have possession of the car in question until 5 weeks after the dissapearance of Maddie. So, she would not have been in the car all that time. They would probably have hidden her somewhere and then 5 weeks later moved her body to a more remote location.

Maddie was a small child and could have been placed into a large duffle bag. Carrying a duffle bag out to a car and placing it into the trunk would not appear suspicious to me. As another poster said, perhaps they were getting close in their searches and somebody got nervous. She might even have been in the duffle bag when initially hidden and never removed from it. Just moved to another location. I do not believe that the PJ had the McCanns under 24 hour survelliance from the get go. They were operating as if there had been an abduction. They did not suspect the parents, outright, until much later, like when the dogs came out.

The DNA has been reported as being from blood or other bodily fluids.

[Jdee]

yes but where? Fridges are too small and with the LE in and out you don't just stash a coprse under the bed.
I think the medical knowledge would perhaps keep them from grossing completely out of shuffeling a dead body around... but passed that I can't grasp it.

[NewMom2003]

What is "PJ"?

I haven't followed this case until now, sorry.

[colomom]

Ditto!
There's no way they could hide the scent....is there?
Unless she was put into the ocean.

Ok, here's the deal...I know for a fact that within a 10 minutes drive of the resort...it is like basically out in the middle of nowhere....there are many wells and old viaduct systems as well as very deep crevices and caves in the cliffs.

The PJ do not have the resources to conduct searches of the entire region. MoonGoddess, who was just there last week, confirmed that the area surrounding the resort is barren, vast and finding a body would be like "finding a needle in a haystack".

[colomom]

What is "PJ"?

I haven't followed this case until now, sorry.

Polícia Judiciária which is the name of the local law enforcement agency in Praia da Luz. The "cops".

[philamena]

Ok, here's the deal...I know for a fact that within a 10 minutes drive of the resort...it is like basically out in the middle of nowhere....there are many wells and old viaduct systems as well as very deep crevices and caves in the cliffs.

The PJ do not have the resources to conduct searches of the entire region. MoonGoddess, who was just there last week, confirmed that the area surrounding the resort is barren, vast and finding a body would be like "finding a needle in a haystack".

Oh my! Thanks for the information colomom.

[poco]

yes but where? Fridges are too small and with the LE in and out you don't just stash a coprse under the bed.
I think the medical knowledge would perhaps keep them from grossing completely out of shuffeling a dead body around... but passed that I can't grasp it.

Brainstorming here -

Okay, wasn't there another apartment that they found some blood/DNA in and are testing that too? Is it possible they moved her body to that apartment immediately after it happened while the initial search took place.

Wasn't the car they rented previously rented a few weeks earlier by another couple they were vacationing with? Was she possibly placed in the back of that car immediately following the "incident", and then again moved there???

We don't know how many times their apartment was searched - heck, we don't know alot.

There was something about a refrigerator, too.

[colomom]

yes but where? Fridges are too small and with the LE in and out you don't just stash a coprse under the bed.
I think the medical knowledge would perhaps keep them from grossing completely out of shuffeling a dead body around... but passed that I can't grasp it.

I still believe that she was taken from the resort immediately and someone either drove or hiked or jogged to a location far enough away, not hard to do, and easily hidden.

[colomom]

Brainstorming here -

Okay, wasn't there another apartment that they found some blood/DNA in and are testing that too? Is it possible they moved her body to that apartment immediately after it happened while the initial search took place.

Wasn't the car they rented previously rented a few weeks earlier by another couple they were vacationing with? Was she possibly placed in the back of that car immediately following the "incident", and then again moved there???

We don't know how many times their apartment was searched - heck, we don't know alot.

There was something about a refrigerator, too.

I think MoonGoddess told us that fridges were too small BUT everything else...poco...fantastic...YES!! Absolutely.

[philamena]

Please don't say the parents hid her in the refridgerator. That's too unbearable to even think about.

[Jdee]

In that Times article I posted ealier.. (heck if I rememeber which thread now).. it did state that after everyone left that night when she went missing that Gerry and Kate went out alone in the dark along the cliffs and called for Madeleine. I suppose it is possible they could have hidden her then.. but before that....?
Then of course they had to go back probably in the dark and find where they stashed her (I think that might have been difficult given the state of mind they were in upon initially stashing her) to move her once again.

[colomom]

I think that her body would have been buried before the cadaver dogs arrived

Correct Barnaby. The cadaver dogs did not come to Portugal until maybe 4 weeks ago...

The sniffer dogs were used in the first few days, just around the resort to try and track what they assumed would have been a kidnapped (alive) child and then another kind of sniffer dog was used in the scrubland search. But, that was all I read about dogs being used.

[colomom]

In that Times article I posted ealier.. (heck if I rememeber which thread now).. it did state that after everyone left that night when she went missing that Gerry and Kate went out alone in the dark along the cliffs and called for Madeleine. I suppose it is possible they could have hidden her then.. but before that....?
Then of course they had to go back probably in the dark and find where they stashed her (I think that might have been difficult given the state of mind they were in upon initially stashing her) to move her once again.

This is where it gets harder to try and nail down for sure...

We will probably never know those kinds of details until a confession...or maybe never.

I am like alot of others though....I just want to know WHERE SHE IS!!!

[colomom]

Please don't say the parents hid her in the refridgerator. That's too unbearable to even think about.

I agree...but it is better than thinking she is with a pedophile....

[Jdee]

I agree...but it is better than thinking she is with a pedophile....

I have to completely agree with this one... As sad as it is...

[Texana]

VERY good point. She was not able to put together a list like mine? Maybe I should be a doctor. :rolleyes:

Or play one on tv.

Yes, your list was perfect. (I remember you suggesting several threads ago that the McCanns could have borrowed vehicle(s) from any other member of the party.

And they could have used another apartment from someone else in the group. Wasn't their second villa another one rented by one of the party previously, before they left to return home?

I really want to know if there is other evidence such as the intercepted emails or phone calls. I can't see the DNA alone being strong enough to charge Kate--and not Gerry--and not one the original renter--Unless there's something else that specifically implicates Kate.

[poco]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=65542&in_page_id=34

Not one, not two, but THREE DNA matches......

But last night it was claimed that forensic tests have found three DNA matches to the missing girl.

One came from the window sill of the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz and two from the Renault Scenic car the McCanns hired 25 days after the girl disappeared.

[Betsy]

I agree...but it is better than thinking she is with a pedophile....

This I whole-heartedly agree with.


What if....she died accidently, and the parents were terrified of something else being discovered if they called the police right away (drugs? abuse?), so they hid her little body somewhere where they were sure *someone* would find her--but when no one did, they couldn't bear to have her eternal resting place being *there* (and they couldn't leave Portugal and leave her out *there*), so they (or someone) moved her (using their car) where they could have a ceremonial burial at sea or something like that. Something to ease their consciences. Then they stuck around to make sure she didn't surface (think Scott Peterson), thus all the jogging along the beach and sticking around "searching".

Maybe the PJ has had this DNA car evidence for a long time, and were just biding their time hoping the parents would lead them to her, but when the parents started making plans to leave, that's when they turned up the heat.

My God, if my child was *missing*, I would always be watching for her to come home from where she was *missing*. They seem to know for sure at this point she's never coming back. You'd have to drag me away from wherever my child went missing and I'd be kicking and screaming and hysterical every second.

They seem relieved to be home. For now anyway.

[twinkiesmom]

And yet the Gazeta Digital site has an item that says this is false:

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS

Portuguese CID spokesman: “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in van rented by McCann is false” - 10.09.07 (22h07)
Chief-Inspector Olegário de Sousa, spokesman of Portuguese CID, said that “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in the van rented by the McCann, is false.” Mr. Olegário said also that the he talked with Martin Brunt today (September 10) afternoon, around 7.00 pm, but the Sky News crime correspondent didn't asked any question about DNA samples in the McCann van and that subject wasn't even referred during the conversation. “The content of that news is completely false”, the Polícia Judiciária spokesman said.

[concernedperson]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=65542&in_page_id=34

Not one, not two, but THREE DNA matches......

But last night it was claimed that forensic tests have found three DNA matches to the missing girl.

One came from the window sill of the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz and two from the Renault Scenic car the McCanns hired 25 days after the girl disappeared.


Notice they are saying fluids vs. any other description. Blood was more than likely the DNA on the window sill but I imagine it was bodily fluids easily identified as decomposition fluids with identifiable DNA in the boot of the car. This would mean without a doubt that Maddie was transferred after her death in that vehicle.

[goddess]

Brainstorming here -

Okay, wasn't there another apartment that they found some blood/DNA in and are testing that too? Is it possible they moved her body to that apartment immediately after it happened while the initial search took place.

Wasn't the car they rented previously rented a few weeks earlier by another couple they were vacationing with? Was she possibly placed in the back of that car immediately following the "incident", and then again moved there???

We don't know how many times their apartment was searched - heck, we don't know alot.

There was something about a refrigerator, too.

Plausible, especially if the hid her in a duffle bag. If at first the parents were not being watched by PJ, they could have stored her in a cooler in someone else's home. Someone who empathized with their plight in a 'there but for the grace of god I go' manner, and someone who would be loyal supporters of their plight.

I hope they find Maddy's body soon. IF the parents are guilty of anything, then they should be required to disclose her location if they want any chance of legal leniency.

[BloodshotEye]

And yet the Gazeta Digital site has an item that says this is false:

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS

Portuguese CID spokesman: “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in van rented by McCann is false” - 10.09.07 (22h07)
Chief-Inspector Olegário de Sousa, spokesman of Portuguese CID, said that “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in the van rented by the McCann, is false.” Mr. Olegário said also that the he talked with Martin Brunt today (September 10) afternoon, around 7.00 pm, but the Sky News crime correspondent didn't asked any question about DNA samples in the McCann van and that subject wasn't even referred during the conversation. “The content of that news is completely false”, the Polícia Judiciária spokesman said.

Interesting. I was wondering how these investigative details were released to the press, when the PJ is so strict about public discussion of the case. Very odd.

[BOESP]

Well, her decomposing body had to be somewhere where the cadaver dogs couldn't follow the scent to. Where did they stash her, and cover that smell too?

A dog can't detect someone buried under a layer of pine mulch, so I'm told by a forensic expert in Knoxville, Tennessee. I had never heard this before but this source swears it is true. I even asked a second time to make sure I'd understood correctly.

[Edwards20]

And yet the Gazeta Digital site has an item that says this is false:

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS

Portuguese CID spokesman: “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in van rented by McCann is false” - 10.09.07 (22h07)
Chief-Inspector Olegário de Sousa, spokesman of Portuguese CID, said that “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in the van rented by the McCann, is false.” Mr. Olegário said also that the he talked with Martin Brunt today (September 10) afternoon, around 7.00 pm, but the Sky News crime correspondent didn't asked any question about DNA samples in the McCann van and that subject wasn't even referred during the conversation. “The content of that news is completely false”, the Polícia Judiciária spokesman said.
Until I hear/see a statement from LE, this is still too much to grasp. Too many rumors and speculation. Guilty or not, the media has certainly crucified them already.

[Kgram]

I hate to think the parents are involved in this but has anyone ever used these? http://www.ziploc.com/?p=b8
They are huge zip lock bags. I've used them at the beach, dump all your wet sandy towels and toys in them and to store king sized comforters for the summer. It's a awful thought but if she was put in 2 of these the human nose may not have smelled a decomposing body. I pray they are not guilty but things do look strange.

[philamena]

I hate to think the parents are involved in this but has anyone ever used these? http://www.ziploc.com/?p=b8
They are huge zip lock bags. I've used them at the beach, dump all your wet sandy towels and toys in them and to store king sized comforters for the summer. It's a awful thought but if she was put in 2 of these the human nose may not have smelled a decomposing body. I pray they are not guilty but things do look strange.

Kgram,
I use those large Ziplocs to store large items in. BUT the scent of a dead person would permeate those bags, that's my opinion of course.

[mic730]

I love dogs and trust dogs but I am skeptical of cadaver dogs picking up on a scent. When it works to finding a body I think what special, wonderful creatures but when it comes to picking up on a scent of a body and no body is found I have to put that aside as 'real' evidence.

[englishleigh]

Kgram,
I use those large Ziplocs to store large items in. BUT the scent of a dead person would permeate those bags, that's my opinion of course.

Plastic, like plastic wrap, ziplock bags, bubble wrap absolutely absorb smells, esp. strong ones. I sent a friend in Ohio a perfume sample in a bubble mailer, the kind lined with plastic bubble wrap, and she said she could smell it when she took the package out of her mailbox, and 6 months later, the envelope still smells like the perfume.

[colomom]

And yet the Gazeta Digital site has an item that says this is false:

BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS - BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS

Portuguese CID spokesman: “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in van rented by McCann is false” - 10.09.07 (22h07)
Chief-Inspector Olegário de Sousa, spokesman of Portuguese CID, said that “Sky News story about Madeleine's DNA in the van rented by the McCann, is false.” Mr. Olegário said also that the he talked with Martin Brunt today (September 10) afternoon, around 7.00 pm, but the Sky News crime correspondent didn't asked any question about DNA samples in the McCann van and that subject wasn't even referred during the conversation. “The content of that news is completely false”, the Polícia Judiciária spokesman said.

Hi twinkiesmom...

I am afraid I am not one of Paulo Reis' biggest fans. Here is a picture of his desk:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/PROffice2.png

and his office/house...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/PROffice1.png

Not that this is a judgement on his reporting abilities, he actually has a good rep. I just really had a hard time with him saying he was convinced of Kate McCanns innocence (way back, early days) because he looked into to her eyes and saw such deep sorrow and grief....I think that you would see that even if she was involved in the accidental death and cover up....

I am very familiar with Police Chief Olegário de Sousa, he would say this because it was not information officially released, but probably leaked.

BTW, I am reading on the Mirror board that the report the PJ is sending on to the judicial systems contains thousands of pages :eek:

[englishleigh]

What would be the point of sleuthing then??

Sleuth=detective...to detect...to figure out the truth...

If you have the facts then you have the truth!!


Exactly, but we're not supposed to sleuth, didn't you know that?? :rolleyes:
All murderers are supposed to get away with their crimes!!!

[philamena]

Plastic, like plastic wrap, ziplock bags, bubble wrap absolutely absorb smells, esp. strong ones. I sent a friend in Ohio a perfume sample in a bubble mailer, the kind lined with plastic bubble wrap, and she said she could smell it when she took the package out of her mailbox, and 6 months later, the envelope still smells like the perfume.

I should thought of that myself :doh: because just last week I received candles by mail and you're right, they were wrapped in bubble wrap yet I could smell their delicious scent before I unwrapped them.

[Texana]

I love dogs and trust dogs but I am skeptical of cadaver dogs picking up on a scent. When it works to finding a body I think what special, wonderful creatures but when it comes to picking up on a scent of a body and no body is found I have to put that aside as 'real' evidence.

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

[colomom]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree, these dogs are AMAZING. I read (and I am too darn tired to look for a link and it's my birthday http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/wineglass.gif) but I read that one of these dogs was able to detect blood in a car that had been burned....:eek:

AWESOME!!!

[mic730]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

I don't doubt what you say for a second! I grew up in the South and still live in the South and I love dogs. I am suspect of any eyewitness testimony and I am also suspect of any dog hitting on a cadaver scent with no cadaver found. Scent dog testimony is very often reviewed before the courts in the US before being allowed and I thing that is the right thing.

[aj1020]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree, these dogs are AMAZING. I read (and I am too darn tired to look for a link and it's my birthday http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/wineglass.gif) but I read that one of these dogs was able to detect blood in a car that had been burned....:eek:

AWESOME!!!

HAPPPYYYYYYYYY BIRTHDAYYY! :HappyBday

cheers to that!

[MrsG728]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. :( What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

[concernedperson]

I don't doubt what you say for a second! I grew up in the South and still live in the South and I love dogs. I am suspect of any eyewitness testimony and I am also suspect of any dog hitting on a cadaver scent with no cadaver found. Scent dog testimony is very often reviewed before the courts in the US before being allowed and I thing that is the right thing.


Mic, cadaver scent can be all consuming depending on the days of decomposition and where the scent was detected. If the cadaver was moved after it was in the position for a time then the scent would remain for awhile. I went into a home for sale and the agent was baking chocolate chip cookies and burning candles and I could still smell decomposition of the owner who had passed away some time before. It permeated the walls. Now, with this said, it was an enclosed space so out in the open the scent would travel to the lowest point.

[Texana]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. :( What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

Well, we don't know about the Pope. He's probably far more used to human failings than one might think--after all, he runs the Vatican and has survived church politics! :blushing:

Seriously, I would love to see some hard-core evidence that exonerates the McCanns. I felt the same way about Scott Peterson. I kept examining the evidence desperately hoping for something that proved innocence, not guilt.

I've been the same way with the McCanns. I just can't come up with anything that proves they were not involved, but so much else being reported that shows they were.

They are an attractive, well educated, personable couple. It is easier to believe in a faceless evil abductor, than it is to believe two such people could make a stupid or arrogant mistake, and then try to cover it up in the mistaken belief they were doing the right thing.

[poco]

Just reported on Nancy Grace that the McCann's have five days to return to Portugal.

[MrsG728]

Well, we don't know about the Pope. He's probably far more used to human failings than one might think--after all, he runs the Vatican and has survived church politics! :blushing:



Haha, true. :crazy:

MG

[englishleigh]

Just reported on Nancy Grace that the McCann's have five days to return to Portugal.

Or what?? British police will arrest them and drag them there?

[mic730]

Mic, cadaver scent can be all consuming depending on the days of decomposition and where the scent was detected. If the cadaver was moved after it was in the position for a time then the scent would remain for awhile. I went into a home for sale and the agent was baking chocolate chip cookies and burning candles and I could still smell decomposition of the owner who had passed away some time before. It permeated the walls. Now, with this said, it was an enclosed space so out in the open the scent would travel to the lowest point.


I believe you totally! However, I think if dogs could be that accurate we would have way more solved cases rather than 'the dog hit here'. I am just not convinced that we should trust a dog scent when it resulted in no body.

[colomom]

HAPPPYYYYYYYYY BIRTHDAYYY! :HappyBday

cheers to that!

Thank you very much aj1020...and I meant to post a "right on" to one of your posts...sorry I am fading fast...but I wanted to tell you that "you rock".

:D

[colomom]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. :( What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

OMG MG...anybody who has DE SR. on their sig is AOK in my book....:D

Please share your theory on the Theories thread...we need more.

Man, I missed NG again....

[s_finch]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

Agreeing with you Texana, cept I've always heard , "I don't have a dog in this fight"----and yes, Whoopie was right, dog fighting is very much part of the deep south heritage, right along with rooster fights (Gamecocks).

I'm not quite ready to crucify Gerry and Kate, but it certainly doesn't look good for them IMHO.

[Zelda]

I'm going to throw out something else. I have read unsubstantiated rumors that the car the McCanns used after Madeleine's disappearance was the same car as the one Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner used when they were in Portugal in May.

Who are the other couple?

[MrsG728]

OMG MG...anybody who has DE SR. on their sig is AOK in my book....:D

Please share your theory on the Theories thread...we need more.

Man, I missed NG again....

haha, DE sr. was a great man. I loved the movie the other nite, and added him back to my siggy. :blowkiss: The intimidator rides forever, 3 lanes wide...


I'll post my theory in the theories thread. I'm afraid it's not original; just a conglomerate of all of your brains put together. I need to know where this poor little girl is.

MG

[Zelda]

If Madeleine's body was stashed somewhere for 25 days and not found why would she be moved? Why not leave the body in the hiding place? If she hadn't been found in 25 days chances are she wouldn't be found. Unless the situation at the hiding place was such that she had to be moved. Like in someone's vacant house but owners were coming back.
Very sad story.

[Texana]

If Madeleine's body was stashed somewhere for 25 days and not found why would she be moved? Why not leave the body in the hiding place? If she hadn't been found in 25 days chances are she wouldn't be found. Unless the situation at the hiding place was such that she had to be moved. Like in someone's vacant house but owners were coming back.
Very sad story.

My question exactly, unless where she was being kept was a temporary location such as a room or car or similar location.

[PagingDrDetect]

I believe you totally! However, I think if dogs could be that accurate we would have way more solved cases rather than 'the dog hit here'. I am just not convinced that we should trust a dog scent when it resulted in no body.

I really don't understand your logic here. Perhaps you don't understand what a cadaver dog is trained to do. They don't just locate dead remains, They find the scent of dead remains in the air and follow that scent to its most concentrated point... which may result in a body being found or may result in a place where that body was before it was removed, which in turn may reveal evidence that points to a suspect.

For example, say a dead body was taken out of the trunk of a car and dragged or carried to a spot in a field where it was left, but later the person who dumped that body got nervous the body would be discovered, so they went back to the body, and threw it back in the trunk to be moved elsewhere. The dog would find the scent "cone" in the air and track it to the spot where the body was dumped. The dog insists this is where the body was, so the search team digs thinking the body must be in the ground... but find no body. This doesn't mean the body wasn't there, only that it HAD BEEN there but moved in such a way that the scent couldn't be followed. What the dog found was the most concentrated area of scent. The dog handler knowing this is the most conentrated area of scent knows by the dog's reaction that the body WAS there but had been moved. So the team checks around the area and finds tire tracks that may lead to identification of the car used to transport the body. Or in the dirt they find tiny scraps of decomposed material like skin or blood. They can take samples of the dirt and find that there is a high concentration of decomposed material that proves a body lay in that spot decomposing. Now they have other leads they can use like checking the shoes of certain people to see if they can match dirt or other seeds/grasses that show a certain person was in that field. They can also check whatever is on the shoes to see if there is any decomposed dead body material in the dirt or other seeds/grasses on the shoes which would identify who it was that dumped the body and/or retrieved it again to dump somewhere else.

This is how ALL dogs scent whether they're tracking prey, live fugitives on the run, dead remains, or whatever. But specialty trained dogs are dogs that have a highly developed scenting ability plus the desire to follow a particular scent without being distracted or giving up. The rest is pretty much just the training to respond to signals from and handler and give the handler signals of a find.

[CaliKid]

Who are the other couple?

Russell O'Brien is a doctor friend of Gerry McCann's, and along with his girlfriend, Jane Tanner (who is one of Kate McCanns's friends) have a daughter the same age as Madeleine.

On the night she disappeared, Russell O'Brien was missing for most of the time from the rest of the group at the Tapas bar, supposedly because their daughter was ill and vomiting. His gf, Jane Tanner, is the woman who claims she saw a man with "something" in a blanket; then later after a suspect emerged, she swore it was him with Madeleine. I think her testimony has almost completely been disproved.

In any case, several weeks ago the Portuguese police said that Russell O'Brien was a suspect in Madeleine's disappearance. I think he and Jane Tanner are two of the 4 people wanted back in Portugal for questioning.

[KatK]

I think that her body would have been buried before the cadaver dogs arrived

Cadaver dogs are used to find buried bodies too. The body would have had to have been on ice. Maybe they also used something like coffee grounds to confuse the scent trail as well? I am still unsure as to who did it, but IMO the parents at the least know more than they are telling. :twocents: This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog#Purpose_and_function) Wikipedia article alludes to what I was saying. The cadaver dogs can scent buried bodies, or even bodies in running water it says.

[WindChime]

I also heard on NG last night that the McCann's can't or won't account for a hour time period if I'm not mistaken.

NANCY GRACE

Portuguese Police Turn McCann Case Over to Prosecutor for Action

Aired September 10, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old (SIC) little girl, baby Maddie, reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation, her parents party at dinner just 100 yards away at the time. Tonight, police naming Maddie`s own mom and dad prime suspects. Police announce they`re set to turn evidence over to prosecutors, reportedly police seeking charges of homicide and concealing the baby`s body.
As we go to air, stunning reports. Baby Maddie`s DNA, possibly blood, found under the carpet of a car trunk, that car rented by Maddie`s family 25 days after she goes missing. Mom and Dad now flee the country, denying any involvement in Maddie`s disappearance. The clock is ticking. Maddie`s parents have just five days to surrender to police, all the while experts continue to comb through evidence from that rental car and the luxury vacation resort where baby Maddie last seen alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A stunning development in the case of missing girl Madeleine McCann, a Portuguese television station now reporting a full DNA match to baby Maddie found in the family`s rental car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents home now in the UK, waiting to see if they will, in fact, be charged in her disappearance. Now, we told you last week the McCanns now reportedly suspected of accidentally killing Madeleine and then hiding her body. They have hired a high-profile legal team that specializes in protecting the reputations of people under investigation. Portuguese police are turning the case over to the prosecutor`s office tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And Tonight, after 11 full days of intense searching by land, by air, by water, police confirm they have ID`d remains of 22-year-old BYU coed Camille Cleverley, found Provo Canyon, Utah, Cleverley last seen leaving her apartment on a silver and purple Schwinn. At this hour, autopsy under way to determine how that BYU senior ended up 200 feet below her bike trail at the foot of a cliff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say her body was at the base of these cliffs. It is believed she fell some 200 feet into a forested area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was about a thousand yards from the falls. They walked right up on her and were able to find her there. It`s so dense in that area that, literally, if you had been 10 feet to the left or right, they may not have seen her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search and rescue teams from Wasatch and Utah Counties canvassed the steep, rugged terrain surrounding the falls. It was in an area already searched several times that the sad discovery was made. Camille`s family gathered and watched as rescuers removed her body from the mountainside, comforting each other and grieving. There is sorrow but also relief. Now it will be up to investigators to determine how Camille might have fallen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have been able to confirm from clothing articles and items that this is indeed Ms. Cleverley. We`ve turned this into an investigation, but we can confirm that she did die upon the mountain at this time.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0709/10/ng.01.html

[fox1950]

Where would a body be put for 27 days, that would not decompose to the point that it would be almost impossible to remove? Seems the body would be covered with migets, bugs, worms, etc. if it was buried in a swallow grave until it was moved back to the car to be taken with the McCanns when they went travelling around. How would you hide a body without all these horrible things happening to it? And the smell would be horrifying. I can not buy that they buried her somewhere in the areas surrounding where they were-in the hot sun.

Seems to me if the body was around after 27 days it would have had to be kept on ice to slow down the decomposing process-then hidden where the spare tire was normally kept in the trunk to move to another location. Could be this was the whole reason for the trip-to remove the body and bury it in a more suitable place while on their trip.

How cold are the caves surrounding where they were staying and how easy is it to get an ice chest at the resort? Could the body have been put in a ice chest in the trunk of the car and somehow bodily fluids linked into the car while on the trip?

[Luanne]

Do we know who else rented the same car? Could one of the Tapas 9 have rented it around the time that Madeleine disappeared?

Gerry's blog is maddening, curious, frustrating and confusing all at the same time....what's betting he/they are working on a book? Might have to look for it on the fiction shelf, but I bet there's one in the works....

Hoping there's justice for Madeleine

[Texana]

Do we know who else rented the same car? Could one of the Tapas 9 have rented it around the time that Madeleine disappeared?

Gerry's blog is maddening, curious, frustrating and confusing all at the same time....what's betting he/they are working on a book? Might have to look for it on the fiction shelf, but I bet there's one in the works....

Hoping there's justice for Madeleine

Reportedly one of the other Tapas 9 did have the car at the time Maddie disappeared. That's what makes it so damning.

[ceeaura]

WindChime:
I also heard on NG last night that the McCann's can't or won't account for a hour time period if I'm not mistaken.



Oh wow I wonder what frame of time was for that hour.:confused:

[englishleigh]

Reportedly one of the other Tapas 9 did have the car at the time Maddie disappeared. That's what makes it so damning.

Right, and apparently they wanted to keep it within the group for some reason, since the McCanns rented the exact same car directly after Russell O'Brien did.

[gord]

Right, and apparently they wanted to keep it within the group for some reason, since the McCanns rented the exact same car directly after Russell O'Brien did.

Can you give a link to this ?

I read a lot on this case and have seen nothing that confirms that the car the Mcaans hired was the exact one that the O briens had and they actually asked for the same car ?

[englishleigh]

Can you give a link to this ?

I read a lot on this case and have seen nothing that confirms that the car the Mcaans hired was the exact one that the O briens had and they actually asked for the same car ?

I cannot but I feel certain that Colomom or CaliKid or someone who is a news researcher CAN....

[colomom]

I can't...I heard this too...I very much want to follow-up on this line. It seems to me that if this is the case, that the body may have been in the trunk the night she dissapeared rather than 25 days later, as is being reported.

I think this is VITAL information. If anyone knows where this report about Russell O'Brien having rented the car and having it on rent when Maddie went missing....please point us to the source of this information.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Until I hear/see a statement from LE, this is still too much to grasp. Too many rumors and speculation. Guilty or not, the media has certainly crucified them already.

Depends on what media you tune into. Greta Van Susteren on Fox News in the US was very disturbed at the accusation on the parents. She was clearly pro McCanns as was her panel.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

snip......

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. :( What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

It's not his job to condemn, but to forgive.

[Betsy]

It's not his job to condemn, but to forgive.


Perhaps that was the motivation for their visit with him...

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Perhaps that was the motivation for their visit with him...

could very well be.

[gord]

I can't...I heard this too...I very much want to follow-up on this line. It seems to me that if this is the case, that the body may have been in the trunk the night she dissapeared rather than 25 days later, as is being reported.

I think this is VITAL information. If anyone knows where this report about Russell O'Brien having rented the car and having it on rent when Maddie went missing....please point us to the source of this information.

I discussed this on another thread - it has been reported that Maddie was last seen alive by the rest of the group at about 7 is after they ate and played together

If Maddie was put in the car that night then the time frame to murder - prepare and then dispose of the body safely is only about 45 minutes - granted it takes seconds to murder - I just cant see how the body could have been hidden so well in the time frame before teh Mcaans arrived at the tapas bar - unless the whole group in implicated ( which I highly doubt )

[colomom]

I discussed this on another thread - it has been reported that Maddie was last seen alive by the rest of the group at about 7 is after they ate and played together

If Maddie was put in the car that night then the time frame to murder - prepare and then dispose of the body safely is only about 45 minutes - granted it takes seconds to murder - I just cant see how the body could have been hidden so well in the time frame before teh Mcaans arrived at the tapas bar - unless the whole group in implicated ( which I highly doubt )

Hi Gord,

I just responded to that post on the other thread. I expressed my belief that the article you reference for the 7PM time of last sighting is full of discrepancies and is very biased. I could pick it apart for DAYS...

I do not believe the 7PM last time of sighting...

I do not believe that the last time Maddie was seen alive has been proven or stated as fact anywhere. This is still a big question in this case.

Also, I have posted numerous times about the scenario of the hours leading up to Kate's declaration of Maddie's abduction and I have offered plenty of information that works with a very small window of time allowing for her to be hidden in a very short period of time.

Please search posts under my username and read about the area around the resort and the possible methods of a quick disposal.

[Edwards20]

Depends on what media you tune into. Greta Van Susteren on Fox News in the US was very disturbed at the accusation on the parents. She was clearly pro McCanns as was her panel. Thank you. I was basing my statements on what I was reading here.

[Rino]

Please search posts under my username and read about the area around the resort and the possible methods of a quick disposal.


LOL, Heather that could take forever with all the info you alone have posted:D

[KR2tonenow]

My question exactly, unless where she was being kept was a temporary location such as a room or car or similar location.

If she was kept in the refridgerator (in the room) and later stashed in the trunk of the car, deposited over a cliff, then later on May 28th, they left the car at the airport and flew to Italy, to see the Pope, then home.
(Remember, the mother said herself that she was exposed to 6 dead bodies before the vacation, IMHO, would be de-sensitized to a cadaver, even her own daugther to save her own skin).

I suppose they didn't think the Portuguese police would figure it out. They thought the lies would gel.

Clearly they were very wrong. Justice will be for Maddy!!

[KR2tonenow]

I also heard on NG last night that the McCann's can't or won't account for a hour time period if I'm not mistaken.

NANCY GRACE

Portuguese Police Turn McCann Case Over to Prosecutor for Action

Aired September 10, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old (SIC) little girl, baby Maddie, reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation, her parents party at dinner just 100 yards away at the time. Tonight, police naming Maddie`s own mom and dad prime suspects. Police announce they`re set to turn evidence over to prosecutors, reportedly police seeking charges of homicide and concealing the baby`s body.
As we go to air, stunning reports. Baby Maddie`s DNA, possibly blood, found under the carpet of a car trunk, that car rented by Maddie`s family 25 days after she goes missing. Mom and Dad now flee the country, denying any involvement in Maddie`s disappearance. The clock is ticking. Maddie`s parents have just five days to surrender to police, all the while experts continue to comb through evidence from that rental car and the luxury vacation resort where baby Maddie last seen alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A stunning development in the case of missing girl Madeleine McCann, a Portuguese television station now reporting a full DNA match to baby Maddie found in the family`s rental car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents home now in the UK, waiting to see if they will, in fact, be charged in her disappearance. Now, we told you last week the McCanns now reportedly suspected of accidentally killing Madeleine and then hiding her body. They have hired a high-profile legal team that specializes in protecting the reputations of people under investigation. Portuguese police are turning the case over to the prosecutor`s office tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And Tonight, after 11 full days of intense searching by land, by air, by water, police confirm they have ID`d remains of 22-year-old BYU coed Camille Cleverley, found Provo Canyon, Utah, Cleverley last seen leaving her apartment on a silver and purple Schwinn. At this hour, autopsy under way to determine how that BYU senior ended up 200 feet below her bike trail at the foot of a cliff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say her body was at the base of these cliffs. It is believed she fell some 200 feet into a forested area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was about a thousand yards from the falls. They walked right up on her and were able to find her there. It`s so dense in that area that, literally, if you had been 10 feet to the left or right, they may not have seen her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search and rescue teams from Wasatch and Utah Counties canvassed the steep, rugged terrain surrounding the falls. It was in an area already searched several times that the sad discovery was made. Camille`s family gathered and watched as rescuers removed her body from the mountainside, comforting each other and grieving. There is sorrow but also relief. Now it will be up to investigators to determine how Camille might have fallen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have been able to confirm from clothing articles and items that this is indeed Ms. Cleverley. We`ve turned this into an investigation, but we can confirm that she did die upon the mountain at this time.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0709/10/ng.01.html

Thank you, MG , for the manuscript. I watched this last night. I loved Nancy's theories. I also watched Greta on Fox, and felt like she was smiling the whole time.

On Larry King, Elizabeth Smart's father defended the McCann's and claimed they were "good friends", and the interview seemed to move more in the direction of politics and downplaying the Portuguese Police findings rather than focusing on the truth of what happened to Maddy.

NG is spot on as ALWAYS!

[colomom]

LOL, Heather that could take forever with all the info you alone have posted:D

Gosh, I guess that is true huh? I didn't think about that...

Ok, just posts within the last week. It has been since we moved into our nice big new house (our own forum).

I must look like such a :loser: if all I ever do is post here....:D

[KR2tonenow]

Hi Gord,

I just responded to that post on the other thread. I expressed my belief that the article you reference for the 7PM time of last sighting is full of discrepancies and is very biased. I could pick it apart for DAYS...

I do not believe the 7PM last time of sighting...

I do not believe that the last time Maddie was seen alive has been proven or stated as fact anywhere. This is still a big question in this case.

Also, I have posted numerous times about the scenario of the hours leading up to Kate's declaration of Maddie's abduction and I have offered plenty of information that works with a very small window of time allowing for her to be hidden in a very short period of time.

Please search posts under my username and read about the area around the resort and the possible methods of a quick disposal.

I agree, in the middle of night, up to 45 mins. is ample time to dispose of a body. In a quiet resort, full of children and numerous quests going to dinner and drinking would sleep right through ANYTHING!

[CaliKid]

The biggest question we've had about Madeleine- from the very start back in May- is: when was the last time someone besides a family member saw her? 131 days later, we still don't know.

[Zelda]

from the SkyNews article:

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

I heard Van Sandt on msnbc saying the blood was found in the trunk of the car, in the depression on the floor that holds a spare tire.

Was the spare tire in the trunk when they found the sample?
And if it was, was it in the depression with the blood? Or somewhere else in the trunk?

[KR2tonenow]

from the SkyNews article:

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

I heard Van Sandt on msnbc saying the blood was found in the trunk of the car, in the depression on the floor that holds a spare tire.

Was the spare tire in the trunk when they found the sample?
And if it was, was it in the depression with the blood? Or somewhere else in the trunk?

not sure about the tire, but it is a perfect spot to hide a 4 yr old!UGH!:mad:

[englishleigh]

from the SkyNews article:

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

I heard Van Sandt on msnbc saying the blood was found in the trunk of the car, in the depression on the floor that holds a spare tire.

Was the spare tire in the trunk when they found the sample?
And if it was, was it in the depression with the blood? Or somewhere else in the trunk?

Sounds like they removed the spare tire and placed Maddie's body in that compartment where the tire should be...and then covered her over with the boot mat.

[Seeker]

I have to ask the obvious question here. How do they know this is Maddies blood? What are they comparing it with?

Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have all the genetic markers to prove conclusively that it is from Maddie and only Maddie? IOW it is from someone in the family, but not necessarily a perfect match for Maddie.

I may have missed something though.

[colomom]

I have to ask the obvious question here. How do they know this is Maddies blood? What are they comparing it with?

Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have all the genetic markers to prove conclusively that it is from Maddie and only Maddie? IOW it is from someone in the family, but not necessarily a perfect match for Maddie.

I may have missed something though.

Check here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53216&page=5 (post #108)

Tell me if it makes sense...

[mic730]

I really don't understand your logic here. Perhaps you don't understand what a cadaver dog is trained to do. They don't just locate dead remains, They find the scent of dead remains in the air and follow that scent to its most concentrated point... which may result in a body being found or may result in a place where that body was before it was removed, which in turn may reveal evidence that points to a suspect.

For example, say a dead body was taken out of the trunk of a car and dragged or carried to a spot in a field where it was left, but later the person who dumped that body got nervous the body would be discovered, so they went back to the body, and threw it back in the trunk to be moved elsewhere. The dog would find the scent "cone" in the air and track it to the spot where the body was dumped. The dog insists this is where the body was, so the search team digs thinking the body must be in the ground... but find no body. This doesn't mean the body wasn't there, only that it HAD BEEN there but moved in such a way that the scent couldn't be followed. What the dog found was the most concentrated area of scent. The dog handler knowing this is the most conentrated area of scent knows by the dog's reaction that the body WAS there but had been moved. So the team checks around the area and finds tire tracks that may lead to identification of the car used to transport the body. Or in the dirt they find tiny scraps of decomposed material like skin or blood. They can take samples of the dirt and find that there is a high concentration of decomposed material that proves a body lay in that spot decomposing. Now they have other leads they can use like checking the shoes of certain people to see if they can match dirt or other seeds/grasses that show a certain person was in that field. They can also check whatever is on the shoes to see if there is any decomposed dead body material in the dirt or other seeds/grasses on the shoes which would identify who it was that dumped the body and/or retrieved it again to dump somewhere else.

This is how ALL dogs scent whether they're tracking prey, live fugitives on the run, dead remains, or whatever. But specialty trained dogs are dogs that have a highly developed scenting ability plus the desire to follow a particular scent without being distracted or giving up. The rest is pretty much just the training to respond to signals from and handler and give the handler signals of a find.
I don't doubt for a minute that the
properly trained dog can do all the things you suggest. What I do doubt is that we don't know in each case how the dog was trained and the accuracy of said dog. I am skeptical of dog scents until it has been properly vetted by a court of law.

[Wudge]

I have to ask the obvious question here. How do they know this is Maddies blood? What are they comparing it with?

Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have all the genetic markers to prove conclusively that it is from Maddie and only Maddie? IOW it is from someone in the family, but not necessarily a perfect match for Maddie.

I may have missed something though.

Empty suits and dresses say LE has an 88% DNA match. Human DNA is a 98% match to chimpanzee DNA. I wonder what DNA percentage humans match to LE and empty suits and dresses?

[colomom]

No....

[colomom]

Empty suits and dresses say LE has an 88% DNA match. Human DNA is a 98% match to chimpanzee DNA. I wonder what DNA percentage humans match to LE and empty suits and dresses?

I hate cryptic...what exactly are you trying to say?

[BethInAK]

Empty suits and dresses say LE has an 88% DNA match. Human DNA is a 98% match to chimpanzee DNA. I wonder what DNA percentage humans match to LE and empty suits and dresses?


I think you are misunderstanding the process by which they do DNA testing for identification purposes.

Human DNA is 98% similar to chimpanzee DNA (i haven't looked this up to verify but know its a high number, so will use your numbers) - meaning that 98% of the DNA is in common.

When they do DNA testing to determine if DNA came from a person, the don't look at the whole DNA, of course, they look at specific markers which have a wide variety of diversity in humans to determine the likelihood that the DNA came from this person. Sometimes some of the markers have degraded (as in this case) and aren't able to be determined.

[T-Rex]

Oh, [sigh!], I can't believe you and I are on the same side, Wudge! I was going to wring your neck in the Peterson case!

But making a leap to connect the dots with the DNA evidence worries me. That's what happened in the West Memphis Three case, and that damage is just starting to be undone now, a decade later.

[Jeana (DP)]

I think you are misunderstanding the process by which they do DNA testing for identification purposes.

Human DNA is 98% similar to chimpanzee DNA (i haven't looked this up to verify but know its a high number, so will use your numbers) - meaning that 98% of the DNA is in common.

When they do DNA testing to determine if DNA came from a person, the don't look at the whole DNA, of course, they look at specific markers which have a wide variety of diversity in humans to determine the likelihood that the DNA came from this person. Sometimes some of the markers have degraded (as in this case) and aren't able to be determined.

Wudge is fairly knowledgeable about these things. I'd prefer to hear from them about the mitochondrial DNA comparison because from what I understand this is pretty clear comparision, even using degraded samples. Aren't they able to reproduce the markers if there is a too-small sample or if its degraded?

[Jdee]

Oh, [sigh!], I can't believe you and I are on the same side, Wudge! I was going to wring your neck in the Peterson case!

But making a leap to connect the dots with the DNA evidence worries me. That's what happened in the West Memphis Three case, and that damage is just starting to be undone now, a decade later.

Amen to that.. and that's from someone who was 'there' when it happened.

[poco]

[/B]

Amen to that.. and that's from someone who was 'there' when it happened.

Now they want to subpoena Kate's diary.....?????

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1016265_judge_asked_to_seize_kates_diary

PROSECUTORS in the Madeleine McCann case want to examine her mother’s private diary for clues, sources close to the investigation said today.

Police passed their 4,000-page dossier of evidence against Kate (pictured) and Gerry McCann to Algarve-based public prosecutor Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses yesterday.

Do you think she wrote in there what happened?? ha!

[Jdee]

Pretty stupid if she did.

[christine2448]

What would be the point of sleuthing then??

Sleuth=detective...to detect...to figure out the truth...

If you have the facts then you have the truth!!

I kinda sorta agree w/both of you. We need the facts, and I agree with Wudge we should deal with the facts....I also agree we should be sleuthing, but IMO you have to sleuth where the FACTS take you, not speculation, theories, guessing.

In chat last night I asked about a dozen times for every one to come forth with actual evidence we are SURE of, then we take the facts and work from there. I couldn't get anything.

In other cases we have 'worked' on we get snapsnots of docs, warrants, statements, actual press releases from reliable people involved in case....to date, I haven't seen any thing that has been FACT. The newspapers we can not rely on.

I think the parents were involved, don't get me wrong..I just think we should be sleuthing the FACTS. Doing otherwise is just making us walk around in circles guessing. IMO.

Now this does however make for a great discussion, but if you want to sleuth it, JMHO, we should sleuth with FACTS. There is a theories thread for theories, polls for guesses, where are the FACTS? (I speak of mostly evidence, we have timelines, etc, this scenario I speak of evidence)

[lviola]

Now they want to subpoena Kate's diary.....?????

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1016265_judge_asked_to_seize_kates_diary

PROSECUTORS in the Madeleine McCann case want to examine her mother’s private diary for clues, sources close to the investigation said today.

Police passed their 4,000-page dossier of evidence against Kate (pictured) and Gerry McCann to Algarve-based public prosecutor Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses yesterday.

Do you think she wrote in there what happened?? ha!

In her picture she's reaching for her neck again, just like Patsy did ...

[Jdee]

I kinda sorta agree w/both of you. We need the facts, and I agree with Wudge we should deal with the facts....I also agree we should be sleuthing, but IMO you have to sleuth where the FACTS take you, not speculation, theories, guessing.

In chat last night I asked about a dozen times for every one to come forth with actual evidence we are SURE of, then we take the facts and work from there. I couldn't get anything.

In other cases we have 'worked' on we get snapsnots of docs, warrants, statements, actual press releases from reliable people involved in case....to date, I haven't seen any thing that has been FACT. The newspapers we can not rely on.

I think the parents were involved, don't get me wrong..I just think we should be sleuthing the FACTS. Doing otherwise is just making us walk around in circles guessing. IMO.

Now this does however make for a great discussion, but if you want to sleuth it, JMHO, we should sleuth with FACTS. There is a theories thread for theories, polls for guesses, where are the FACTS? (I speak of mostly evidence, we have timelines, etc, this scenario I speak of evidence)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[christine2448]

The biggest question we've had about Madeleine- from the very start back in May- is: when was the last time someone besides a family member saw her? 131 days later, we still don't know.

I started the Where is Maddie thread and forgive me, I dont' remember the poster, but she said "the million dollar question"..I'm thinking this now is the million dollar question, last time Maddie was seen was????

[Jdee]

I started the Where is Maddie thread and forgive me, I dont' remember the poster, but she said "the million dollar question"..I'm thinking this now is the million dollar question, last time Maddie was seen was????

I believe it was Shazza that gave that answer. I have a deadlock mind. Sometimes it's a curse!

[Wudge]

I hate cryptic...what exactly are you trying to say?

Please note that if you accept or buy into media spin, you are necessarily dealing in "cryptic" that has but one purpose. i.e. excite sensibilities in exchange for ratings.

Headlines: DNA in trunk matches Madeline's DNA.

What is not said is that it is not a perfect match. How imperfect is the match? Allegedly, there was an 88% match. That would be extremely imperfect.

Of course, the 88% is pure crimetainment input, not fact, just rumor like everything else. All that we hear is basically rumor. There are no corroborated facts.

It's smart to wait for real, corroborated facts , and let empty dresses (media morons) like Nancy Grace talk to herself.

[Jdee]

I bow to you Wudge...

incredibly well said!

[narlacat]

In her picture she's reaching for her neck again, just like Patsy did ...

Geez, if the woman touches her neck it reminds you of Patsy?

That photo of kate looked nothing like the one of Patys on bended knee in front of gravestone, I fail to see the comparison.

[Show Me]

Wudge is fairly knowledgeable about these things. I'd prefer to hear from them about the mitochondrial DNA comparison because from what I understand this is pretty clear comparision, even using degraded samples. Aren't they able to reproduce the markers if there is a too-small sample or if its degraded?

That's what I'd like to know.

I have a problem with hair and Madeline's DNA in the tire compartment of the trunk. I believe hair and DNA can be transferred but in the tire compartment of a rented car?

Still not convinced the McCann's killed Madeline....but I haven't followed the case like many on this forum.

[Jeana (DP)]

That's what I'd like to know.

I have a problem with hair and Madeline's DNA in the tire compartment of the trunk. I believe hair and DNA can be transferred but in the tire compartment of a rented car?

Still not convinced the McCann's killed Madeline....but I haven't followed the case like many on this forum.

Agreed. And, if reports are true, it was a cadaver dog that hit on the DNA scent in the trunk so she was dead when she was there. It wasn't "live DNA" transferred.

[Wudge]

Wudge is fairly knowledgeable about these things. I'd prefer to hear from them about the mitochondrial DNA comparison because from what I understand this is pretty clear comparision, even using degraded samples. Aren't they able to reproduce the markers if there is a too-small sample or if its degraded?

We simply do not know what DNA tests they ran (nuclear or mitrochondrial)but they should not be leaking and/or reporting results from any sample that was "degraded". So I would put that thought aside. Of course, LE is not required to be truthful.

As you might have guessed, the way this story has been leaking out makes me think that the prosecutors and/or LE were telling half-truths and/or lies to try and get one of the parents to crack. I am reminded very much of JonBenet's witchhunt.

If the prosecutors had the goods, they would have arrested one or both of the parents. It's that simple.

[Jeana (DP)]

We simply do not know what DNA tests they ran (nuclear or mitrochondrial)but they should not be leaking and/or reporting results from any sample that was "degraded". So I would put that thought aside. Of course, LE is not required to be truthful.

As you might have guessed, the way this story has been leaking out makes me think that the prosecutors and/or LE were telling half-truths and/or lies to try and get one of the parents to crack. I am reminded very much of JonBenet's witchhunt.

If the prosecutors had the goods, they would have arrested one or both of the parents. It's that simple.


Thanks Wudge. I'm glad you're here on this one with us!!!! Good to see you my friend!

[Wudge]

Agreed. And, if reports are true, it was a cadaver dog that hit on the DNA scent in the trunk so she was dead when she was there. It wasn't "live DNA" transferred.

Jeanna, just to clarify, a cadaver dog can hit on a death scent only. Madeline's death scent would not be unique to her. Death scents are not unique to any person. And there are a lot of chemicals that would cause a cadaver dog to falsely hit. I doubt that anyone knows what was placed in the trunk of that car by all of its drivers.

Net, "low reliability" to say the least.

[Show Me]

Agreed. And, if reports are true, it was a cadaver dog that hit on the DNA scent in the trunk so she was dead when she was there. It wasn't "live DNA" transferred.

I've read reports the exact car the McCann's rented was previously rented by one of the friends the McCann's were vacationing with when Madeline disappeared. Is this really true? If so what are the odds of this happening unless the resort area only had one car company with one car to rent?

I'm also wondering why the Policia decided to search the rental car?

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeanna, just to clarify, a cadaver dog can hit on a death scent only. Madeline's death scent would not be unique to her. Death scents are not unique to any person. And there are a lot of chemicals that would cause a cadaver dog to falsely hit. I doubt that anyone knows what was placed in the trunk of that car by all of its drivers.

Net, "low reliability" to say the least.

Yes, but wasn't it tested to be her's? So while the dog simply found the scent of "death" that sample was tested and proved to be her's, right? The fact that possibly "clumps" of her hair were also found in that spot that could not be "transferred," but had to have come from her body, most likely means that she had to be there.

[Jeana (DP)]

I've read reports the exact car the McCann's rented was previously rented by one of the friends the McCann's were vacationing with when Madeline disappeared. Is this really true? If so what are the odds of this happening unless the resort area only had one car company with one car to rent?

I'm also wondering why the Policia decided to search the rental car?

Maybe they're smarter than we give them credit for????? I hope so because right about now I'm not feeling too good about the team.

[Brefie]

Right, and apparently they wanted to keep it within the group for some reason, since the McCanns rented the exact same car directly after Russell O'Brien did.

Really??

Why the heck would they want to keep the same car? Even if they did kill her and had someone dispose of her in this car, why, why, why would they want to have a car that their dead daughter was once in? This surely would be the work of people who were pretty twisted and wanted their other kids to be in a car that their sister - who their parents murdered - was transported in after the she was killed.

I am sorry, but this makes no sense to me.

If anything, I would imagine they would request a completely different car. If they killed her, they can never be confident that they would not be looked at, so why request a car that has their conviction in the trunk?? They have 2 yr old twins and could have specifically requested something bigger considering they need 2 car seats, double stroller, baby (toddler) bags and necessities, added to the fact they continually had family in town they had to transport.

Why not take the chance to distance themselves?

[Wudge]

Yes, but wasn't it tested to be her's? So while the dog simply found the scent of "death" that sample was tested and proved to be her's, right? The fact that possibly "clumps" of her hair were also found in that spot that could not be "transferred," but had to have come from her body, most likely means that she had to be there.

We don't know that it was tested to be 'hers". Again, an "88%" match, or thereabouts, certainly would not equate to being "hers". We just do not know.

We also do not know if the cadaver dog hit on a true death scent or hit falsely. It's all rumor and innuendo at this point.

If all we have is what the prosecutors have, that explains why the parents were allowed to leave the country. If the prosecutors have more, then I must assume they did not take all that they have to be enough.

No matter how I look at the recent happenings, I would say that either the prosecutors or LE wanted to bring media pressure to bear on the parents. Nonetheless, what happened does not make the prosecutors or LE look smart. For if you really have suspects and you end up chasing them out of the country, that's truly dull (being nice).

[Jeana (DP)]

We don't know that it was tested to be 'hers". Again, an "88%" match, or thereabouts, certainly would not equate to being "hers". We just do not know.

We also do not know if the cadaver dog hit on a true death scent or hit falsely. It's all rumor and innuendo at this point.

If all we have is what the prosecutors have, that explains why the parents were allowed to leave the country. If the prosecutors have more, then I must assume they did not take all that they have to be enough.

No matter how I look at the recent happenings, I would say that either the prosecutors or LE wanted to bring media pressure to bear on the parents. Nonetheless, what happened does not make the prosecutors or LE look smart. For if you really have suspects and you end up chasing them out of the country, that's truly dull (being nice).


Yes, Wudge, but I believe their laws are different than what we're used to here in the States. They are just now seeking a Judge's approval to seize evidence and to search in buildings that they were in after Maddy's disappearance. Here all of that would have been done immediately. If a judge is just now giving consent for all of this, who knows what they've got. They're supposed to be back in the country in about three days from what I understand and the judge has about 10 days to decide whether they should be arrested. I guess we'll find out more then.

[christine2448]

Please note that if you accept or buy into media spin, you are necessarily dealing in "cryptic" that has but one purpose. i.e. excite sensibilities in exchange for ratings.

Headlines: DNA in trunk matches Madeline's DNA.

What is not said is that it is not a perfect match. How imperfect is the match? Allegedly, there was an 88% match. That would be extremely imperfect.

Of course, the 88% is pure crimetainment input, not fact, just rumor like everything else. All that we hear is basically rumor. There are no corroborated facts.

It's smart to wait for real, corroborated facts , and let empty dresses (media morons) like Nancy Grace talk to herself.

I actually started to quote and post a link to what I bolded in your quote to rebuttle some of the evidence and as I proofread my post I thought, "dang, I am doing it too, taking the media word for gospel, this could be BS!

It's hard sometimes, but we have to remember what the medias purpose is! I forget, we all forget, and it's all we have right now...LE isn't talking us, the family isn't, but media is.

Great post!

I understand though how this can happen and I myself have fallen for it many times...learning as I go ;)

What else do we have? Media. Sux.

[Wudge]

Yes, Wudge, but I believe their laws are different than what we're used to here in the States. They are just now seeking a Judge's approval to seize evidence and to search in buildings that they were in after Maddy's disappearance. Here all of that would have been done immediately. If a judge is just now giving consent for all of this, who knows what they've got. They're supposed to be back in the country in about three days from what I understand and the judge has about 10 days to decide whether they should be arrested. I guess we'll find out more then.

A half truth may not be a lie by any country's legal standards, but neither is it ever going to be more than a half truth.

It will be interesting to see what develops as time rolls by. Right now, I would say that someone in LE or the prosecutor's office has a lot of explaining to do.

[Jeana (DP)]

A half truth may not be a lie by any country's legal standards, but neither is it ever going to be more than a half truth.

It will be interesting to see what develops as time rolls by. Right now, I would say that someone in LE or the prosecutor's office has a lot of explaining to do.

Very true. I don't believe we can accuse them of rushing to judgment though.

[wicket]

I'm sure that the cadaver dogs are superb - but if they tracked the scent of death to the church and/or graveyard wouldn't it make sense? There are funerals, funeral flowers, dirt, coffins, etc. This sounds horrible but the ground and area must be infiltrated with such death scents. We wouldn't notice this but a specially trained dog would.

I'm very glad that other WB's are smarter and more logical than I to work this puzzle out - I enjoy them immensely.

[Salem]

Yes, Wudge, but I believe their laws are different than what we're used to here in the States. They are just now seeking a Judge's approval to seize evidence and to search in buildings that they were in after Maddy's disappearance. Here all of that would have been done immediately. If a judge is just now giving consent for all of this, who knows what they've got. They're supposed to be back in the country in about three days from what I understand and the judge has about 10 days to decide whether they should be arrested. I guess we'll find out more then.

And Jeana - it was in the media that PLE would have had charges pressed against the McCanns but the McCanns' attorney apparently had a meeting with some political figure (I can't remember exactly who) and the process for pressing the charges were postponed. It will be interesting to see what happens and how soon.

I'll see if I can find the link that talks about PLE's frustration with not be able to charge Kate or have stricter bail conditions before they returned home.

My guess is the McCanns and their attorney pulled some political strings so they could take the twins home, with some kind of "promise" that they would return. But if you watch all the media quotes, the McCanns have only said they would return for further "interviews". They have made no committment to return to Portugal if charges are to brought against them. At this point, I further speculate that the McCanns are digging their heels in and preparing for an extridition war.

:twocents:
Salem

[Jeana (DP)]

And Jeana - it was in the media that PLE would have had charges pressed against the McCanns but the McCanns' attorney apparently had a meeting with some political figure (I can't remember exactly who) and the process for pressing the charges were postponed. It will be interesting to see what happens and how soon.

I'll see if I can find the link that talks about PLE's frustration with not be able to charge Kate or have stricter bail conditions before they returned home.

My guess is the McCanns and their attorney pulled some political strings so they could take the twins home, with some kind of "promise" that they would return. But if you watch all the media quotes, the McCanns have only said they would return for further "interviews". They have made no committment to return to Portugal if charges are to brought against them. At this point, I further speculate that the McCanns are digging their heels in and preparing for an extridition war.

:twocents:
Salem

You are absolutely right about that! I did hear this evening, however, that the police in their area are cooperating with the Portugal authorities. I'd like to believe that's the truth.

[CaliKid]

You are absolutely right about that! I did hear this evening, however, that the police in their area are cooperating with the Portugal authorities. I'd like to believe that's the truth.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand this is that when the McCanns were made arguidos on Friday, they were told they were subject to Portuguese law and could be brought in for further questioning at any time.

The McCanns were scheduled to return to the UK on or around the 11th. That was the date their lease was up on the villa.

It appears that as soon as they left the police station in Portimao they began making plans to leave and received permission from the PJ, as long as they agreed to return if asked.

They flew home on Sunday morning. They immediately hired a team of lawyers, including one who was an expert in fighting extradition.

The police asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal on Monday after the DNA was found in the boot of the car. The McCanns refused.

Through ongoing negotiations, the PJ gave the McCanns an ultimatum and said they had 5 days to report- meaning Saturday.

So will the McCanns return to Portugal and what will happen when they do?

IMO, they end up appearing more guilty for refusing to go.

[PagingDrDetect]

I don't doubt for a minute that the
properly trained dog can do all the things you suggest. What I do doubt is that we don't know in each case how the dog was trained and the accuracy of said dog. I am skeptical of dog scents until it has been properly vetted by a court of law.

The two dogs were brought in from the UK and are considered pretty much the best in the WORLD at what they do.

[Jeana (DP)]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand this is that when the McCanns were made arguidos on Friday, they were told they were subject to Portuguese law and could be brought in for further questioning at any time.

The McCanns were scheduled to return to the UK on or around the 11th. That was the date their lease was up on the villa.

It appears that as soon as they left the police station in Portimao they began making plans to leave and received permission from the PJ, as long as they agreed to return if asked.

They flew home on Sunday morning. They immediately hired a team of lawyers, including one who was an expert in fighting extradition.

The police asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal on Monday after the DNA was found in the boot of the car. The McCanns refused.

Through ongoing negotiations, the PJ gave the McCanns an ultimatum and said they had 5 days to report- meaning Saturday.

So will the McCanns return to Portugal and what will happen when they do?

IMO, they end up appearing more guilty for refusing to go.

It sounds as if you've got it down completely. From what I heard on television (and we know that information isn't always correct, the police in their town are working with the police in Portugal. I suspect that there is no reason yet to have them "brought in" as they are not yet under arrest, but I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that once an arrest warrant has been made for one or both of them, that the police in their area would then be asked to do something, but not before.

[PagingDrDetect]

I'm sure that the cadaver dogs are superb - but if they tracked the scent of death to the church and/or graveyard wouldn't it make sense? There are funerals, funeral flowers, dirt, coffins, etc. This sounds horrible but the ground and area must be infiltrated with such death scents. We wouldn't notice this but a specially trained dog would.

I'm very glad that other WB's are smarter and more logical than I to work this puzzle out - I enjoy them immensely.

That's why people are buried at least 6 feet down... otherwise animals can pick up the cadaver scent and dig up human remains. Six feet down is too deep for animals to scent the dead. If any cemetery was riddled with cadaver scent animals from all over the place would be in there digging away to get at the remains.

Cadaver dogs aren't trained to find the scent... ALL dogs (and all scavenger animals) can do that. They're trained to track it on command without giving up or being distracted and to signal the handler of a find.

I had an Akita that naturally would have made a great cadaver dog... he LOVED the stink of dead things, was absolutely diligent in tracking the scent to it's source and couldn't be distracted from his