Surprising amount of Maddie's hair in car trunk

[BrendaStar]

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

[colomom]

Read this also, they are discussing it on the Mirror board.

All I can say is....ugh. :sick:

Every day I feel more and more sorry for our girl.

[Betsy]

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

[KR2tonenow]

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

I find it interesting that they visited the Pope on May 29th, after they left the rental car in Portugal.

Maybe they needed to be purged of their sins.

[CaliKid]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

[BrendaStar]

I was fence sitting until I read about this. There is no way a large amount of her hair could have gotten into the trunk of the rental car without her being in it, is there? Combined with the bodily fluids, my hinkey meter is going up. I just don't know how this can be explained away if it actually is true and not tabloid gossip.

[BrendaStar]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

No, but it could have gotten caught on something in the rental's trunk.

[Betsy]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

No, but it could have gotten caught on something in the rental's trunk.

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...

[Texana]

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...

I think they have to be, in order to do the DNA analysis and know whose hair it is. That was a big issue in the Laci Peterson trial, the hair found on the pliars in Scott's boat didn't have the follicle so they couldn't for certain say it was Laci's--just of a type that could be hers and definitely not Scott's. They can do some typing obviously even without the follicle but not the positive match.

[ThoughtFox]

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

omg - This news just makes me sick! It's just too sad!

I was thinking that if decomposition had started, the hair might have come out accidentally - ugh. :mad:

It's interesting that on page two of that article the writer calls the father's blog entry yesterday "emotional," since many people felt it sounded stilted and much too calm.

[sherri79]

So it would be interesting to know if the hair follicles were still attached....I would venture to say yes, if they know 100% that the hair is Maddie's. If the bulbs are still attached, the hair was pulled out. Yes, children pull each other's hair out, this I know. But not in the trunk of a car, in the wheel well...
i would agree with you. my understanding is we have 2 types of dna. Nuclear and mitochondrial DNA . nuclear would be from both parents and tell them 100% if it was maddie. mitochondrial is paced down from the mother and would match her or maddie. again my understanding is hair can only be tested for mitochondrial DNA and you need the follicle for nuclear.

[goddess]

Then why does the article say that the prosecutor has not enough evidence to actually charge the parents? I am getting confuddled with all the conflicting stories I am reading.

[Betsy]

i would agree with you. my understanding is we have 2 types of dna. Nuclear and mitochondrial DNA . nuclear would be from both parents and tell them 100% if it was maddie. mitochondrial is paced down from the mother and would match her or maddie. again my understanding is hair can only be tested for mitochondrial DNA and you need the follicle for nuclear.

This is what I understand also (from the Peterson trial). And with the other little ones being in the car as well, finding hair with no follicle can't be considered very reliable evidence.

But if the DNA from the follicle is a match to the DNA from the blood, found in the car that the McCanns deny driving until Maddie had been missing for 25 days, well......IF that's the case, of course....

[sherri79]

This is what I understand also (from the Peterson trial). And with the other little ones being in the car as well, finding hair with no follicle can't be considered very reliable evidence.

But if the DNA from the follicle is a match to the DNA from the blood, found in the car that the McCanns deny driving until Maddie had been missing for 25 days, well......IF that's the case, of course.... from the Danielle van Dam case i also learned that even with mitochondrial dna you can tell it from mom's if it has been color treated. the problem i would see in this case would be how do you tell it from a sibling without a follicle.

[AfterMidnight]

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

Did you guys read the entire article? The press says a lot more and the police backpedal:

But police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court.

The police are ENCOURAGING this case to be tried in the press. In my opinion that speaks very badly for the Portugeese Le. For shame!

[hcc2007]

Thanks for explaining the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear dna in hair testing.

My question is, if a "surprising amount" means clumps of hair, then wouldn't the parents have cleaned it up after doing the deed? Or maybe "surprising amount" to a detective is actually so small that the average person wouldn't notice it? It's all rather confusing.

More generally, I believe that death by parents happens way more often to children than death by strangers. Especially given the really slim time slice the abductor had to work with, given the constant checking (as reported by the "Tapas 9"). That would make the prior likelihoods favor the parents as culprits.

On the other hand, if Portugal is the hotbed of pedophilia that some describe it, that would increase the chances of stalking and careful planning by someone who knew the family's habits.

[AfterMidnight]

I was fence sitting until I read about this. There is no way a large amount of her hair could have gotten into the trunk of the rental car without her being in it, is there? Combined with the bodily fluids, my hinkey meter is going up. I just don't know how this can be explained away if it actually is true and not tabloid gossip.

Your "hinky meter" should be going up. That's exactly what the police want to happen through their feeding these innuendoes to the "press". Read the entire articles. The police are backpedalling faster than the presses are printing. Something really wrong with that.

[BloodshotEye]

The PJ was quoted in one of the news sources (think it was from yesterday's news), as stating that a particularly detailed account of the DNA, complete with % reliability, was absolutely false.

Given that, the McCanns have repeatedly indicated that they are not able to discuss the case/questions they have been asked, do to the legal restrictions imposed by law - I found it curious, but fascinating, that so much information has been reported in the news.

So I am left with the impression, that one of two things is happening:
1. The JP has watched helplessly, as case info was leaked to the press. They don't know how to stop the leak; so the best they can do, is quash the info by creating doubt about the reliability of it.
Seriously, it is not too difficult for an investigative reporter to follow behind the JP, and question the very people that were questioned by the JP. E.g., the wait staff at the Tappas Bar, hotel staff, securing room info and room layouts from staff. There are plenty of opportunities for case information to be intercepted. And yes, there will be some inaccuracies in the information reported. But a lot of it is pretty accurate. I'm guessing about 80% accuracy.

or...
2. Much of the case details that we have read, and upon which we are basing our various theories and speculation, is more of the same. Theories posed by news sources, who maybe have some public information - yet speculate on the rest.

For now, I put my money on scenario #1.

[Texana]

Bloodshoteye,

I agree with your accuracy assessment for #1. And some information, of course, has been leaked by the McCann supporters--the misunderstood "plea bargain" deal, etc.

[guineveer]

'Surprising amount' of Madeleine McCann's hair found in hire car, say police
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2429822.ece

All I can say is wow!

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers. ;)

[BethyC]

We must learn to not believe everything we read about this case....much has been proven to be otherwise.

[AfterMidnight]

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers. ;)

Well, guineveer, you appear to have confused this thread with the FACTS. You go, girl :blowkiss:

[missmuffit]

Two thoughts....

1. It keeps being said that the car was rented by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie "disappeared". That would be May 28th, right? But has it ever been said how long they rented it for? Because on May 29th is when they flew to Italy to visit with the Pope. Did they only need a car to get to the airport? Or did they rent it long-term? How long were they in Italy? Did they come straight back to Portugal, or do more travelling? Why pay for a car if you're going to be out of the country? Did they drive the car to the airport that day? Was it parked at the airport while they were gone? Did someone know this, and used the car while they were gone?

2. This may mean nothing, but I've read that the McCanns spent the day of Maddie's 4th birthday walking along the beach. I think I personally would spend the day paralyzed in bed, but maybe not if....if I knew that being on the beach was actually as close to my child as I could possibly get, i.e. if she were in the ocean somewhere....

Just some random thoughts...

I belive it was last night, (9/10) on Greta that it was stated that the McCann's did indeed rent or hire the car a day prior to them flying to Rome, however it was done in this manner for friends and family to have access to a car while the parents were out of the area. So from my take on that info, a whole heck of a lot of people had access to the car then just Gerry and Kate.

[txsvicki]

Dr. Perper and another expert were on Nancy Grace tonite saying that hair could come out easily from a deceased person. Maybe in clumps after being dead awhile they maybe from moving the body. There's must be something to it if there is lots of hair in clumbs and the cadaver dog hitting on a scent. I would think that the dog was dual trained and looking for Maddie's scent just as Dobber was looking for Lacey's scent as a cadaver.

[missmuffit]

Dr. Perper and another expert were on Nancy Grace tonite saying that hair could come out easily from a deceased person. Maybe in clumps after being dead awhile they maybe from moving the body. There's must be something to it if there is lots of hair in clumbs and the cadaver dog hitting on a scent. I would think that the dog was dual trained and looking for Maddie's scent just as Dobber was looking for Lacey's scent as a cadaver.

To add on to what Txsvicki stated, ( Greta, 9/11 ) Dr. Baden also said that the forensics specialists should also be able to tell if the clumps of hair were from someone who was alive at the time that they came out or if the hair had fallen out after death had occured. From what I was able to gather by what he said was that the folicle changes after death, he went on to explain just what the change is however I missed part of the explanation.

[gord]

The hair thing puzzles me - If we go with the scenario that the hair is all post mortem and came out in clumps when the body was being moved - then it begs the question that the body was not properly sealed and then we get back to the point that there would be a massive amount of DNA in that trunk -

At present there seems to be so much confusing and conflicting statements coming out of Portugal at the moment .

[gord]

the hair thing could be crucial

I did read somewhere that unlike DNA scientists can tell if hair came from a living body or post mortem

But in order to make sure it is Maddy;s hair you need a follicle to get a DNA marker

so the hair could be vital -

[princessmer81]

If someone really did take Madeleine for blackmail or if it was a botched kidnapping that the McCanns were in on (see my theory on kidnapping for kidnapping insurance money on the theories page) could someone have planted the hair in the car as a "warning" or to frame the McCanns?
I wish we knew more details about this hair!

[HappyChic727]

If Madeleine were dead, would her hair be falling out?

No, but it could have gotten caught on something in the rental's trunk.I really think Maddy is gone and if that's her hair, we don't really need any more proof. These parents were wrong from the get-go and are responsible for her death, even if not by their own hands.

[april4sky]

the hair thing could be crucial

I did read somewhere that unlike DNA scientists can tell if hair came from a living body or post mortem

But in order to make sure it is Maddy;s hair you need a follicle to get a DNA marker

so the hair could be vital -

Article here about the hair in the car.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's'

[docwho3]

Article here about the hair in the car.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's' Thanks for posting the link.

I admit I have been away from my computer and away from TV news for most of the day on more than one occasion and with this case having so many last minute twists and changes it is hard for me to keep up sometimes.

If I am understanding correctly from reading your post and others posts it seems that much of the "evidence" against the parents that we thought was solid evidence and which was being trumpeted in many news reports is now turning out to not be correct or at least vastly less than was first reported. Am I getting the correct impression?

[april4sky]

Thanks for posting the link.

I admit I have been away from my computer and away from TV news for most of the day on more than one occasion and with this case having so many last minute twists and changes it is hard for me to keep up sometimes.

If I am understanding correctly from reading your post and others posts it seems that much of the "evidence" against the parents that we thought was solid evidence and which was being trumpeted in many news reports is now turning out to not be correct or at least vastly less than was first reported. Am I getting the correct impression?


It would appear so.

I am surprised:waitasec: "not" that so little interest is being shown in this "news" as the thread went completely crazy when we first heard about the "clumps" of Madeleine's hair.

[Jdee]

Key word here April... 'Sensationalism'. A small amount of hair found that now can't be identified is not as senstional as "clumps of Madeleine's hair found in boot of car".

[shrinkydink]

Did you see this one, too?

Madeleine: 'Dingo baby' mother recognises police hostility, 'forensic' discoveries and hysterical public

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482033&in_page_id=1811

[BloodshotEye]

Wow. Interesting "re-calibration" of these news reports. I remain skeptical, about all reports; the intitial reports of hair clumps, as well as the "revised" (we don't know whose it is) reports.

I will continue to muse and speculate, on the numerous theories, until this thing spins itself out. It will probably take a while. News companies must be selling a $#it-load of papers, and clicks on news sites.

I think others here, for the most part, may do the same. And most here seem to know full well, that we are at sorely lacking transcripts of interviews, copies of documents, etc. That said, our theories are largely "If-Then" scenarios. i.e., if the report has a shred of truth to it, then the following event may have happened.

Always know I can find the best links to the most current versions of news, right here ;]

[docwho3]

Wow. Interesting "re-calibration" of these news reports. I remain skeptical, about all reports; the intitial reports of hair clumps, as well as the "revised" (we don't know whose it is) reports.

I will continue to muse and speculate, on the numerous theories, until this thing spins itself out. It will probably take a while. News companies must be selling a $#it-load of papers, and clicks on news sites.

I think others here, for the most part, may do the same. And most here seem to know full well, that we are at sorely lacking transcripts of interviews, copies of documents, etc. That said, our theories are largely "If-Then" scenarios. i.e., if the report has a shred of truth to it, then the following event may have happened.

Always know I can find the best links to the most current versions of news, right here ;] Nice post. Well said.

[mrsmousemat]

Apparently the three children were all IVF. so the discussion (amongst many others) is that maybe the three egss were fertilozed at the same time but that there were two pregnancies. This may account for the similarity of the DNA between the twins and Madeleine.


As my medical knowledge is -33percent, has anyone got enough to know whether or not this is a possibility?

[CaliKid]

Oh geez, mouse, that is so possible. Most moms I know who have undergone IVF harvest a lot of eggs at one time to save themselves the expense and inconvenience.

[pedinurse]

Yeah but I mean, eggs are eggs... we have all the eggs we are ever gonna have at the time we are born. It doesn't matter. siblings are siblings. And maddie's DNA is Maddie's DnA. unless one of the twins is her absolute identical twin (not fraternal - identical, caused by an extra split of the egg)... which wouldn't be possible... then no...

More likely, the hair is there because after death, your hair starts to fall out because some of the follicles start to release. Sad.

[CaliKid]

Yeah but I mean, eggs are eggs... we have all the eggs we are ever gonna have at the time we are born. It doesn't matter. siblings are siblings. And maddie's DNA is Maddie's DnA. unless one of the twins is her absolute identical twin (not fraternal - identical, caused by an extra split of the egg)... which wouldn't be possible... then no...

More likely, the hair is there because after death, your hair starts to fall out because some of the follicles start to release. Sad.

:doh: Doh! I should've known that. Thanks, pedinurese

[BethInAK]

Apparently the three children were all IVF. so the discussion (amongst many others) is that maybe the three egss were fertilozed at the same time but that there were two pregnancies. This may account for the similarity of the DNA between the twins and Madeleine.


As my medical knowledge is -33percent, has anyone got enough to know whether or not this is a possibility?

The three children, from three different eggs and three different sperm should be as unique as any brother or sister. There is nothing magical about using IVF that makes the offspring more similar - each fertilized egg contains one sperm and one egg.

Except of course on the outside chance of an IVF that results in identical twins, which the twins obviously are not since they are different genders.

[pedinurse]

The three children, from three different eggs and three different sperm should be as unique as any brother or sister. There is nothing magical about using IVF that makes the offspring more similar - each fertilized egg contains one sperm and one egg.

Except of course on the outside chance of an IVF that results in identical twins, which the twins obviously are not since they are different genders.
exactly

[ThoughtFox]

There must have been "something" in the car trunk because now the McCann's are trying to explain the DNA:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482490&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

Family sources said:

• At least 30 people connected to the McCanns, including blood relatives, used the Renault Scenic before police seized it to gather forensic samples.

• Madeleine's belongings were transferred in the boot of the hire car, which could have left her DNA there.

• The belongings included her sandals which experts have told the family will include traces of DNA left from her sweat.

A source told the Standard today: "What people have got to ask themselves is just how many people were associated with that vehicle over a 10-week period.

"How many family, friends and campaign workers, how many blood relat ives, how many drivers?

"I know of at least 30 people being associated with that vehicle in the relevant period."

The source added: " People also need to consider what was carried in that car for entirely innocent reasons.

More at Link

Interestingly, no mention or explanation of the hair. :waitasec:

[SleuthMom]

What puzzles me is IF the amount of DNA is so little (that could have been a "transfer" from Maddie's toys or clothes) Why to even bother to mention it as evidence?

Unless, there is a considerable amount of DNA in that car (that will prove it is NOT just a "transfer") then we are talking about business, otherwise can be discarded so easily.

[Jeana (DP)]

What puzzles me is IF the amount of DNA is so little (that could have been a "transfer" from Maddie's toys or clothes) Why to even bother to mention it as evidence?

Unless, there is a considerable amount of DNA in that car (that will prove it is NOT just a "transfer") then we are talking about business, otherwise can be discarded so easily.

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Moreover, the highly-regarded cadaver dogs hit on Mrs. McCann time after time after time. Thankfully, this was videotaped and thankfully these dogs were from the U.K., not Portugal, so there cannot be any complaints that the dog handler was biased.

[kgeaux]

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers. ;)

HaHa! Isn't it amazing? Same article, same words. Some people are taking it as gospel coming straight from the mouth of police, while police themselves are denying everything. The facts do tend to limit the discussion.

As to the hair: If mitochrondrial DNA was used to determine the hair was Maddie's, then we all need to take a big deep breath. Maddie, her mother, her sister and her brother all have the exact same mitochrondrial DNA. So perhaps there is a surprising amount because the hair comes from three sources.

[kgeaux]

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Moreover, the highly-regarded cadaver dogs hit on Mrs. McCann time after time after time. Thankfully, this was videotaped and thankfully these dogs were from the U.K., not Portugal, so there cannot be any complaints that the dog handler was biased.

Jeana, I'm not sure what you mean? Maddie's DNA would be all over everything the family owns, so for her DNA to show up anywhere by transfer would be expected. There's nothing about DNA in itself that would show if it has come from a living or deceased person, is there?

The cadaver dogs did hit on Mrs. McCann, but as a physician she had dealt with death before, right? How long would that 'cadaver' smell stick around on her, do you know? And has anyone tried letting a cadaver dog sniff a doctor who was around a legitamate dead person for the length of time it's been since the last time Mrs. McCann was around a dead body?

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana, I'm not sure what you mean? Maddie's DNA would be all over everything the family owns, so for her DNA to show up anywhere by transfer would be expected. There's nothing about DNA in itself that would show if it has come from a living or deceased person, is there?

The cadaver dogs did hit on Mrs. McCann, but as a physician she had dealt with death before, right? How long would that 'cadaver' smell stick around on her, do you know? And has anyone tried letting a cadaver dog sniff a doctor who was around a legitamate dead person for the length of time it's been since the last time Mrs. McCann was around a dead body?

Well if she took the proper precautions that all doctors are supposed to take when dealing with this sort of thing, according to the experts that have been on Nancy Grace's show, there NEVER should have been anything on her. So, considering she claims to have been around a deceased person six or so days BEFORE they went on their trip, spent several days on the trip before Maddy disappeared and considering that it was weeks and weeks after she disappeared that the dogs hit on her, I'd say its nearly impossible for her to still have that scent on her.

Edited to add, it was the cadaver dogs that hit on the trunk in the first place, so the DNA found there was from a deceased Maddy, not a live Maddy.

[kgeaux]

Article here about the hair in the car.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's'

Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however. Somehow, on this thread the surprising amount morphed into clumps....I'm not sure how that happened! And now we find out that the "surprising" amount of "clumps" was really "fragments." Fragments of hair too small to even determine the sex of the person the hair belonged to.......determining sex is pretty simple, people, so if they can't even determine that, I think it's completely possible and even probable the fragments are going to turn out to be NOTHING as far as evidence.

Yeah but I mean, eggs are eggs... we have all the eggs we are ever gonna have at the time we are born. It doesn't matter. siblings are siblings. And maddie's DNA is Maddie's DnA. unless one of the twins is her absolute identical twin (not fraternal - identical, caused by an extra split of the egg)... which wouldn't be possible... then no...

More likely, the hair is there because after death, your hair starts to fall out because some of the follicles start to release. Sad.

We now know there are no hair follicules, not even strands of hair. The newest article references "fragments" of hair

Well if she took the proper precautions that all doctors are supposed to take when dealing with this sort of thing, according to the experts that have been on Nancy Grace's show, there NEVER should have been anything on her. So, considering she claims to have been around a deceased person six or so days BEFORE they went on their trip, spent several days on the trip before Maddy disappeared and considering that it was weeks and weeks after she disappeared that the dogs hit on her, I'd say its nearly impossible for her to still have that scent on her.


I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

[Jeana (DP)]

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?


I'm not sure. I don't think that its something that I've seen about in all of the cases that we've discussed. Sorry I can't be more help. I guess if this whole thing ever gets to trial, they'll have to get samples of the DNA of those deceased persons that Mrs. McCann claims to have been around so the DNA can be compared. That shouldn't be too difficult to do and it would at least answer the question on this one topic.

[harleysnana]

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

[kgeaux]

I'm not sure. I don't think that its something that I've seen about in all of the cases that we've discussed. Sorry I can't be more help. I guess if this whole thing ever gets to trial, they'll have to get samples of the DNA of those deceased persons that Mrs. McCann claims to have been around so the DNA can be compared. That shouldn't be too difficult to do and it would at least answer the question on this one topic.

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

I don't think washing removes the scent that the dog picks up on. She probably did wash it----IF she was wearing the same shirt! It's just a hypothetical I'm tossing about, trying to understand if there could be a reasonable explanation for the cadaver dogs to hit on Mrs. McCann, other than the possibility she was involved in Maddie's death.

[SleuthMom]

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.


Thanks for the clarification Jeana. :) I am really confused about this DNA talk. So if the DNA is from a DEAD person, why then the parents are given the excuse that some of the toys and sandals of Madeleine where placed in the trunk and that's why the police may have found some DNA? :confused:

[BethInAK]

Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however.


even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....




THIS is what the dog hit on:

Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor. Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen. Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant. It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers. It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.

Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=cadaverine

[Jeana (DP)]

even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

[BethInAK]

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."





I agree. However, we know that the hair alone wouldn't ever be enough for an arrest warrant; however, the evidence in its totality is what either will or won't get them arrested.

[Texana]

Thanks for the info about the cadaverine chemical, Jeana. It sounded like a stretch for the cadaver odor to get into Kate's clothing or shoes, particularly with medical procedures for contamination, etc--but I thought well, perhaps if she had a belt on under her doctor's jacket, and wore the same belt--etc.

However, you are right about the cadaver dogs hitting on the Scenic. The only reason the car was searched again and so thoroughly was the dogs' alerting.

PS Edited to add, I now have a new phobia, Cadaverineobia.

[SleuthMom]

What is the amount of hair needed to determine if it from a living or dead person? Does anyone know?

Because if the issue is that "there is not enough hair to test" as it was reported, I want to know if with minimal hair if is possible to determine that.