Open Letter to the Maddie Forum

[colomom]

Dear friends,

I have to say that I am feeling a bit "defeated" this evening, I read through the Not Guilty/Fence Sitters thread and now feel rather blue...

I know I come across as being hard on the McCanns and I wish I could just remain neutral. I have tried very hard, believe me. I am a huge believer in "innocent until proven guilty" and I hate to rush to judgement. I have been reading and posting and trying to digest and trying to find a middle ground. I have prayed so hard and begged God to let the truth come out. I just keep coming back to how it feels like the McCanns have been lying to me, in so many ways, and to the whole world too.

The only thing that has mattered to me from the start is this little girl. I do not care if her parents feel like they are been persecuted. I just want to know what happened to her. When I thought she had been abducted by a pedophile, my heart broke into a million pieces. I could not stand to think about it. I have two very young children and I found myself pulling them close, even to the point of suffocation. I could not even consider letting them play in front of the house because my fear was so great. As I searched the internet for information I was confronted with unspeakable horrors.

As the tide began to shift, my anxiety lessened. I actually felt relief that her parents might be responsible for her vanishing. Perhaps my shift toward the guilt of her parents was because I desperately wanted to believe that this world was a safe place for my children. It was actually easier for me to believe that Maddie was dead than to consider the alternative. Do you know how hard that is, to feel that way??

I am not a sleuth by nature. I never posted on this board or any like it, before this case. I am a tech, a computer nerd, an internet junkie. I am a logical thinker and I trust my gut. It has yet to fail me. I am a late in life mom who cherishes her children deeply. I cannot imagine life without them. I want to protect children and innocence. To that end I am driven. So I found myself here....

I want very much for you to know that I am a good person with a really big heart. I do not wish harm to come to the McCanns. I want the truth to come out, in full, with no doubts. Proof, facts, solid evidence...I desperately want that too. Anything less would be hard for me to bear. Please forgive my attempts at humor at their expense. I mean no harm. I only want one thing....the TRUTH.

I just want you to know that I do not consider myself to be part of a "lynch mob". I hope that you will read my contributions and not judge me to harshly. Maybe knowing where I am coming from will shed some light on how, and why, I am contributing.

I appreciate all of you, every thought, every argument, every reason is valid to me.

Thanks for listening (and reading). :blowkiss:

Heather

[Rino]

Heres a cyber-hug and :blowkiss:

Heather, I feel bad you have taken on the burden of being called a heavy.
I never once got the impression that if the tide turned yet again and the guilty proved to be other than the McCanns you would deny them that truth.

Your looking for the killer or abductor of a child. If that causes others to feel uncomfortable because the parents have come under suspicion remember, it wasn't you who put them there. They have done this to themselves.

I am greatful for all your hard work and pray with you for an end and closure so Madeleine can rest in peace.

[englishleigh]

Heres a cyber-hug and :blowkiss:

Heather, I feel bad you have taken on the burden of being called a heavy.
I never once got the impression that if the tide turned yet again and the guilty proved to be other than the McCanns you would deny them that truth.

Your looking for the killer or abductor of a child. If that causes others to feel uncomfortable because the parents have come under suspision remember, it wasn't you who put them there. They have done this to themselves.

I am greatful for all your hard work and pray with you for an end and closure so Madelein can rest in peace.

I second what Rino just said. :clap: There is no need for you to feel like a bad guy, Heather. :blowkiss:

[philamena]

You don't sound like a bad person at all. You've been more than civil when posters have a different opinion about the case than you do. psst I'll tell you what you need to do...........take a break from your computer and this case for a few minutes, a few hours, a few days, whatever you need. I guarantee you will feel better when you return.

Take it from someone who knows, you can spend too much time on the computer when following a case that hits close to your heart. Don't make this case your life....make it part of your life. (((hugs))) to you!

[Jeana (DP)]

Heather darlin, I feel exactly the same way you do if that helps you any.

Unfortunately, those of us who've been at Websleuths for more years than we can remember and have followed virtually every missing child case during that time seem to have a "sense" about what doesn't sound right. This case has never sounded right from day one. We don't have a crystal ball, but we've seen enough and heard enough to know when we're being fed what we consider to be b.s.

And, from what I could see, you're far from being the only "heavy" here. Many of us think the family's story is crap and we don't mind saying so.

Hang in there!!! :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

[concernedperson]

I wish every child and every adult who goes missing would have an advocate like you, Colomom. This would lessen the hardship for the many families who suffer, sometimes years, for a resolve in a case. Keeping it in the forefront will ultimately bring answers and justice for the person harmed. My hat is off to you for doing just that. An American Hero, we can't have too many.

[BloodshotEye]

Rest assured, Colomom, that I don't think that you have a lynch-mob approach. The scenario's that are the basis of our wild theories, are simply the unpleasant, but necessary considerations that an investigative team must evaluate. It seems that you report your findings, and let the chips fall where they may.

I too, consider the case of the Van Dam parents, (Westerfield vs. Supreme Court of the County of San Diego), and how many people were convinced that one of them killed their daughter. Holy crap...if it weren't for considering the big picture (e.g. the Van Dam's activities that night), investigators might never have known that Westerfield was at the bar with the Van Dam's, until he simply disappeared. If I remember correctly, the Van Dams, and every person with whom they came in contact that night, was fair game for having committed the murder.

If it is not one of the McCanns, I feel confident that the full vetting of the information/evidence that is causing the PJ to focus on them - will indeed yield the identity of the individual who directly caused Maddie's demise.

You're the best, Colomom!

[Betsy]

Heather, I'm so sorry you feel that you need to defend yourself for feelings many (if not most) of us have here on this board. We all want the same thing--justice for Maddie, nothing less and nothing more.

None of us knows the truth, we are simply weighing the information that we have so far and trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Many of us have done this on other forums as well. I started here with the Scott Peterson case, and even now he has defenders not willing to admit that he is guilty of double murder. Are the rest of us witch-hunters? We weighed the evidence presented at each stage (sometimes it changed hourly) and made our decisions based on this. At one point, too, I was praying that he didn't have anything to do with it, because if he did, she was surely dead. I wanted some evidence to turn up to exonerate him. Is it my fault that none did? Was I guilty of a witch hunt? No, absolutely not. And neither are you in this case.

You have been wonderful, posting a wealth of information as you find it. At no point have I ever thought that you or anyone else on this board "has it in" for the McCanns.

I hope you don't get fed up and leave--your information and insight is very valuable, to me anyway.

Take care and God bless.

Betsy

[KR2tonenow]

Colomom,

We have a right to our opinions. Be as it may, be harsh at times. On that thread they are calling this a witch hunt, how interesting??

Our opinions are based on facts, gut feelings, appearances of the McCanns, but most of all we are all concerned parents wanting to fiind justice for Maddy!

If I hurt someone's feelings in the process so be it. I have a vioce and I am gonna use it, girl!

[Salem]

Heres a cyber-hug and :blowkiss:

Heather, I feel bad you have taken on the burden of being called a heavy.
I never once got the impression that if the tide turned yet again and the guilty proved to be other than the McCanns you would deny them that truth.

Your looking for the killer or abductor of a child. If that causes others to feel uncomfortable because the parents have come under suspicion remember, it wasn't you who put them there. They have done this to themselves.

I am greatful for all your hard work and pray with you for an end and closure so Madeleine can rest in peace.

:clap: :clap: And after englishleigh, I will 3rd it! You have based your point of view on all the information that has been gathered over the last 4 months. Many others in this forum are still catching up. And I agree, if the tide turns the other way, you (as will many of us) will breathe a sigh of relief and allow the McCanns their innocence. And I have not forgotten that I will be supplying the crow for the crow pie you, Shazza and I (and maybe it was Cali?) will be eating.:D

Salem

[Barnaby]

Aww Heather, I am comparitively new to this forum but in no way would I think you were part of any lynch mob & it is obvious that you like many of us have the best interests of poor litle Madeleine at heart. I too am a mother who cherishes her children deeply & above all else!
Your contributions here have been informative & unbiased. So many people all over the world questioned the inconsistencies in this case from the beginning including myself.
At the end of the day there is not one person who would not want to see Madeleine home & safe & all these nightmare stories go away. Noone wants her dead, noone wants her parents guilty of an unspeakable crime.
A forum like this will always explore the ins & outs of a case & unfortunately there has been much conflicting evidence in this case. We live in the world of freedom of speech & people are entitled to voice their opinions. That is the essence of a good forum people can speak their minds while having respect for everyone elses point of view.

{{{ Hugs to you}}} Please don't worry it is so easy to get hurt by internet, take a rest & God will send a solution to this case soon I pray.

[biggirl]

I wish every child and every adult who goes missing would have an advocate like you, Colomom. This would lessen the hardship for the many families who suffer, sometimes years, for a resolve in a case. Keeping it in the forefront will ultimately bring answers and justice for the person harmed. My hat is off to you for doing just that. An American Hero, we can't have too many.

I have been a reader and not a poster until this evening when I first posted on the fence sitter thread. But, I have found your posts to be very interesting and not at all offensive and you are exactly the reason I LOVE WS. People here have intelligent discussions and the varied opinions allow me to really think about all the angles of different cases.

You are a GEM and a very articulate one at that. Do not apologize for that. Keep up the posting, I for one value hearing all views.:blowkiss:

[dingo]

:blowkiss:

[BethInAK]

Heather, I think you are awesome.

[Edwards20]

Heather, I don't think you are someone with a lynch-mom mentality. I think you are a genuine person, and you certainly summed it all up in your letter here. I appreciate that.

Yes, I am still on the fence .... but to think you have offended me is absurb. I am not sure that you have offended anyone here for that matter. Perhaps I am missing something ?

I think you are an awesome person with a big heart, and I am certainly happy to have crossed paths with you. I admire your diligence and all that you have taken the time to present here. Again, we may not all agree, but I don't take offense to that.

I have this gut feeling that I will be eating crow as well by sitting on the fence ..... but only time will tell.

[ceeaura]

Heather, I think you are awesome.

I agree with BethInAK,you are awesome!Without you I would have been lost on figuring out which newspapers are respectable and which were tabloids.

Just know that you are a respected and level headed person whom I am glad to have had opportunity to meet.I actually like every one here.I read here for the longest before I got brave enough to post and I have blundered here but you set me straight and calmed me down and for that I am grateful.

So thank you for you just being you!:blowkiss:

[Texana]

Colomom/Heather, you have spent hours and hours reading and researching all the information on Madeleine's disappearance.

Without a doubt, you have been moved to put in those hours, because you care deeply about a little girl who, whatever has actually happened to her, did not deserve to have that fate.

When we all stop caring about the people we do not know personally who suffer, we will all lose some of our humanity.

You have done a great job posting all the links and translations for the rest of us. People who are new to the forum should take the time to read the media reports, interviews, and blogs about Maddie--from all sources and "sides--" first.

Hugs ((())) and don't lose heart. :blowkiss:

[wicket]

I think this is probably the second time or maybe third that I've contributed to this forum on Maddie. I had taken part actively when SP was a large part of all of our lives. You speak so much of what I am thinking - I wish the McCann's no harm at all and I do want that little girl back home again. But they are adults and their child is missing - how involved are they? They have a responsibility to a little girl and the world to answer truthfully and bring a close to a sad day in May.

One day I feel they are guilty and another they are innocent. Why can't I, as an adult, mother, grandmother, come to a logical conclusion? I would never want to be on a jury - basically, the parents appear normal, smart, photogenic with a beautiful family. Many of us cannot fathom this mother or father harming their daughter - I know I can't. But others look at it differently so they help me view details that I would never think about. Therefore I need the doubting thomases to raise questions, debate the evidence or lack thereof.

I have a question though that maybe someone can answer that I haven't heard or have overlooked: Are we biased in feeling that our judicial system is better than the Portuguese LE? If this had happened in the U.S., would it have been solved already? Do we have faith in the Portuguese system of LE? Wow! That wasn't one question, was it? Sorry! :confused:

[ceeaura]

I think this is probably the second time or maybe third that I've contributed to this forum on Maddie. I had taken part actively when SP was a large part of all of our lives. You speak so much of what I am thinking - I wish the McCann's no harm at all and I do want that little girl back home again. But they are adults and their child is missing - how involved are they? They have a responsibility to a little girl and the world to answer truthfully and bring a close to a sad day in May.

One day I feel they are guilty and another they are innocent. Why can't I, as an adult, mother, grandmother, come to a logical conclusion? I would never want to be on a jury - basically, the parents appear normal, smart, photogenic with a beautiful family. Many of us cannot fathom this mother or father harming their daughter - I know I can't. But others look at it differently so they help me view details that I would never think about. Therefore I need the doubting thomases to raise questions, debate the evidence or lack thereof.

I have a question though that maybe someone can answer that I haven't heard or have overlooked: Are we biased in feeling that our judicial system is better than the Portuguese LE? If this had happened in the U.S., would it have been solved already? Do we have faith in the Portuguese system of LE? Wow! That wasn't one question, was it? Sorry! :confused:


Wow!That is a great question wicket!Or rather questions :) I am going to have to think on that for a minute or two.

[colomom]

I think this is probably the second time or maybe third that I've contributed to this forum on Maddie. I had taken part actively when SP was a large part of all of our lives. You speak so much of what I am thinking - I wish the McCann's no harm at all and I do want that little girl back home again. But they are adults and their child is missing - how involved are they? They have a responsibility to a little girl and the world to answer truthfully and bring a close to a sad day in May.

One day I feel they are guilty and another they are innocent. Why can't I, as an adult, mother, grandmother, come to a logical conclusion? I would never want to be on a jury - basically, the parents appear normal, smart, photogenic with a beautiful family. Many of us cannot fathom this mother or father harming their daughter - I know I can't. But others look at it differently so they help me view details that I would never think about. Therefore I need the doubting thomases to raise questions, debate the evidence or lack thereof.

I have a question though that maybe someone can answer that I haven't heard or have overlooked: Are we biased in feeling that our judicial system is better than the Portuguese LE? If this had happened in the U.S., would it have been solved already? Do we have faith in the Portuguese system of LE? Wow! That wasn't one question, was it? Sorry! :confused:

First thing....THANK YOU...so much, all of you, for your responses.

While my self esteem is boosted, I am still veerryy tired, bone tired. I am thinking I should take a break....

But, I want to respond to this question...

I do believe that we are, and the British are, biased in our thinking that the Portuguese law enforcement community is somehow inferior to our own. I think that comes from the fact that Praia da Luz is a small town and the LE is not nearly as substantial as ours in the US or the UK. It is only normal that we would worry that their investigations might be less reputable than our own.

HOWEVER, I have done a ton of research and I can assure you that the PJ are not acting alone in this. They are very cautious and do not want an international incident to come from this case. They realize the fine line line they are walking between conducting a stand-up and thorough investigation and coming across as amateurs. The reputation and commerce of their country is at stake!

They have been working very closely with the British LE community from the very beginning and more so in recent weeks.

Please do not doubt the professionalism of the PJ. When this is all over I plan on sending them flowers http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/ad/flowers.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org).

I think they are awesome.

Good night from Colorado!

[okietexan]

Wow, Heather....I have said it before and I will say it again...you are amazing! You have provided so many of us with information that we might not otherwise have. You have been fair and honest and respectful to everyone. The way you care for Maddy truly shows and your precious nature shines through. I know that I am not alone in saying how much we appreciate you, your knowledge, and your kindness! Hang in there...you are awesome! And somewhere, somehow, Maddy knows how great you are too!

[CaliKid]

We understand that there are posters who have been immersed in other threads and are finding the Maddie forum for the first time or visited in the beginning and "left us". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I hope nobody feels I've been shoving mine down your throat.

For those of us who have been here all summer, we may seem to know more than you. But that doesn't mean we're right. We follow evidence just like you do and come to whatever conclusion it leads us to. This investigation is so different from any other because of the secrecy in Portugal issue. We get little snippets of clues, but we won't know the truth unless it comes out in court.

Actually, I hope we're wrong about the McCanns. I would be totally thrilled to wake up tomorrow morning and discover that Madeleine had been found, alive and well.

But like Jeana, I have to admit that the parents just don't sit right with me either.

[Taximom]

I can't add anything except "ditto" everyone above. Great comments.

:blowkiss:

[jilly]

Well Colomom - since you have never posted on another board before I'm sure you know by now that you came to the right one! You will not find another site so supportive - that's why many of us have been around for awhile.

I'm going to jump on board with everyone else here and say ditto to their comments. There is nothing wrong with being passionate as you are with such a disturbing case. I have always felt from reading your posts that you are a very honest person and have nothing but the best interests of this poor child at heart.

Please keep on posting. The majority of us value your opinion.:blowkiss:

[jilly]

We understand that there are posters who have been immersed in other threads and are finding the Maddie forum for the first time or visited in the beginning and "left us". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I hope nobody feels I've been shoving mine down your throat.

For those of us who have been here all summer, we may seem to know more than you. But that doesn't mean we're right. We follow evidence just like you do and come to whatever conclusion it leads us to. This investigation is so different from any other because of the secrecy in Portugal issue. We get little snippets of clues, but we won't know the truth unless it comes out in court.

Actually, I hope we're wrong about the McCanns. I would be totally thrilled to wake up tomorrow morning and discover that Madeleine had been found, alive and well.

:clap: I am one of those 'johnny come lately' posters Cal and I know from experience that it is very frustrating when you follow a case doggedly from the beginning and someone like me comes along.:D
I just want to say thank you to you and all the others for being so patient with us and getting us up to speed!:)

[aussie_mum]

I have been a member here for about 18 months..... and read here for along time before that.... perhaps 12 - 18 months.... can't be sure really... I really only joined because I got sick of trying to find the threads I was interested in. lol. So alot of the posters here even tho they may not have noticed me, I sure have noticed them (swear I am not a stalker!) and every one here seems so nice! Like almost everyone on this forum can argue the opinion, the facts, the theory on their own merits without resorting to name calling and harrassment. Other places I have seen if you don't agree you are instantly a troll, or you must be dumb or an idiot. Here I see alot of "Wow, that's an interesting idea...." or "Good point, but I don't agree....."
I think what helps that is all of us are here because we care what happens and we have an interest in seeing justice for everyone.

Colomom you have done alot of reading and found all sorts of stuff that most of us couldn't find, I think you are great. I have never read a post of yours that had any disregard for another person here or that forgot the reason we are here.

[AfterMidnight]

In one way, colomom, I can almost agree with your feelings. I got involved in child abduction/murder years ago when Eton Patz disappeared. That case cut me to the core and I wanted so badly to stop this from ever happening again. Well, I couldn't and neither can the police, and neither can you.

I can almost empathize with your emotional state, but I believe when you emailed the McCanns you crossed a line - the line of privacy. Yeah, you do post a lot of links and keep everyone informed, although inflamed might be a better word. The tripe we've read from the Portugese press is akin to the National Enquirer, sensationalism at its worst, half-truths at its best. That is, unless the Portugese LE has "accidentally" leaked some of this stuff and then denied it later. That, in itself, is despicible.

I'm sure you're a lovely person who dotes on her children, but I believe you've become too emotionally involved in this case. There's no reason for that because you cannot bring Maddy back if she's dead, and you cannot rescue her if she's been abducted. All you can do is whip yourself into an assylum.

You have every right to post all the links and opinions you want. I know most of the posters here enjoy them. That scares me a little. Maybe a lot. There's something here that reminds me of mob mentality. Even if the suspected horse thief really did steal the horse, the mob had no right to lynch him.

I know I'll be flamed and thought unkind. Whatever. If I had been alive during the Oxbow Incident I probably would have been swinging myself and the deaths in Salem didn't come about by earnest prayer and good judgment - emotion played the major role.

[SieSie]

I can't add anything except "ditto" everyone above. Great comments.

:blowkiss:

I ditto the ditto! :D Keep up the great work, Colomon/Heather, you're very much appreciated around here. I totally understand the need to take breaks from these difficult cases, though - be sure to take care of yourself! :blowkiss:

[Shazza]

Heather I cannot express enough how very important you are to this case, the posters who post all have their opinions and are entitled to have them, but without all the information you bring to this forum I dont think we would have much to discuss, you have worked tirelessly and brought to our attention links and stories we may not have found. You stick to your opinions and theories as I believe a lot of what you say is exactly what a lot of other posters are thinking as I am one of them, to those who differ well thats good to, until we find out the truth and someone is charged beyond doubt all opinions and theories posted have a place here on WS.

Keep up the good work Colomom, you are doing a terrific job andI appreciate all your hardwork and committment.:blowkiss:

[Jdee]

Sorry you are feeling so blue Heather. I remember your first post when we were just a few, Shazza, Petra, Cali, Englishleigh...and a few others... We have trudged through this mess for months and held on even when there was nothing to post. If it is any consolation I feel the same way. Somedays I wake up and think.. yeah they did it, then 10 min later I say.. no they didn't do it. That is the reality of it for me. I just don't know.
Don't beat yourself up here. Just take a step back. In a day or so you will feel much better about it.
xoxo

[christine2448]

You don't sound like a bad person at all. You've been more than civil when posters have a different opinion about the case than you do. psst I'll tell you what you need to do...........take a break from your computer and this case for a few minutes, a few hours, a few days, whatever you need. I guarantee you will feel better when you return.

Take it from someone who knows, you can spend too much time on the computer when following a case that hits close to your heart. Don't make this case your life....make it part of your life. (((hugs))) to you!


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[KOOL LOOK]

You glitter like a majestic Emerald in my eyes. The great walls of our eternal home are built with layers of Rubies, Sapphires, Emeralds and Gold.

But none more precious than you are to me, for you know how I place you in my heart and the value you are to me. You are worth more than any price I'd ever be able to pay. But your peace, serenity and joy you bring me is a free gift you give to all of us here.

You are my green Emerald that represents the love of this world that I place in the crown of Jesus. Your children will grow up and call you Blessed Mother!

:dance: I know the Angels dance at the throne when you flash in front of our Lord.

Your friend,

[narlacat]

In one way, colomom, I can almost agree with your feelings. I got involved in child abduction/murder years ago when Eton Patz disappeared. That case cut me to the core and I wanted so badly to stop this from ever happening again. Well, I couldn't and neither can the police, and neither can you.

I can almost empathize with your emotional state, but I believe when you emailed the McCanns you crossed a line - the line of privacy. Yeah, you do post a lot of links and keep everyone informed, although inflamed might be a better word. The tripe we've read from the Portugese press is akin to the National Enquirer, sensationalism at its worst, half-truths at its best. That is, unless the Portugese LE has "accidentally" leaked some of this stuff and then denied it later. That, in itself, is despicible.

I'm sure you're a lovely person who dotes on her children, but I believe you've become too emotionally involved in this case. There's no reason for that because you cannot bring Maddy back if she's dead, and you cannot rescue her if she's been abducted. All you can do is whip yourself into an assylum.

You have every right to post all the links and opinions you want. I know most of the posters here enjoy them. That scares me a little. Maybe a lot. There's something here that reminds me of mob mentality. Even if the suspected horse thief really did steal the horse, the mob had no right to lynch him.

I know I'll be flamed and thought unkind. Whatever. If I had been alive during the Oxbow Incident I probably would have been swinging myself and the deaths in Salem didn't come about by earnest prayer and good judgment - emotion played the major role.

I don't think you are unkind Midnight, just honest.

And it's true, getting emotional isn't helping anyone.

I do not judge the Mc's for leaving their kids alone, they made a mistake- as Mums it isn't humanly possible to be watching our kids every second of the day- any Mum who says she does is pretty much lying- we still have to have showers, go to the toilet etc- and when kids start school they are out of our sight for 6 hours, we have to trust the universe will look after them.

[Texana]

I don't think you are unkind Midnight, just honest.

And it's true, getting emotional isn't helping anyone.

I do not judge the Mc's for leaving their kids alone, they made a mistake- as Mums it isn't humanly possible to be watching our kids every second of the day- any Mum who says she does is pretty much lying- we still have to have showers, go to the toilet etc- and when kids start school they are out of our sight for 6 hours, we have to trust the universe will look after them.

You don't have to trust the universe exactly, you have to trust people like me who are watching them every minute. I cannot even begin to tell you the amount of emphasis given to security at the school where I work and the schools my daughters attend. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but in ours, it is a huge, huge part of our jobs here to keep the children safe. If we have to choose between the academic objective and a safety one we choose safety.

I am sure the teachers down under feel exactly the same way.

[teacherbees]

Taking a shower, going to the bathroom, allowing a child to attend school - you equate these activities with leaving children three and under alone for hours night after night so you can go party with friends?

[Rino]

Taking a shower, going to the bathroom, allowing a child to attend school - you equate these activities with leaving children three and under alone for hours night after night so you can go party with friends?
:waitasec: quite a stretch...

[colomom]

I don't think you are unkind Midnight, just honest.

And it's true, getting emotional isn't helping anyone.

I do not judge the Mc's for leaving their kids alone, they made a mistake- as Mums it isn't humanly possible to be watching our kids every second of the day- any Mum who says she does is pretty much lying- we still have to have showers, go to the toilet etc- and when kids start school they are out of our sight for 6 hours, we have to trust the universe will look after them.

Actually, I have never left my children "alone", they have always been in the presence an adult that was within earshot. And when they were 3 years old, within eyesight. I even brought them into the bathroom, in their infant carriers, when I took a shower, and I didn't close the curtain. I have always been extremely careful with my gifts, I know just how fragile they are. I agree with you Texana, our children are probably safer in their school environment than playing in our fenced back yard. After all, our schools are in a district very close to Columbine High School.

I made a commitment when I had these kids and that meant that what I wanted came second. There will be time to put myself first when they are grown. I am also very lucky to have a husband that feels exactly like I do.

I do not understand why the McCanns could not do the same.

Oh, and getting emotional is helping someone...it's helping ME!

[Shazza]

Actually, I have never left my children "alone", they have always been in the presence an adult that was within earshot. And when they were 3 years old, within eyesight. I even brought them into the bathroom, in their infant carriers, when I took a shower, and I didn't close the curtain. I have always been extremely careful with my gifts, I know just how fragile they are. I agree with you Texana, our children are probably safer in their school environment than playing in our fenced back yard. After all, our schools are in a district very close to Columbine High School.

I made a commitment when I had these kids and that meant that what I wanted came second. There will be time to put myself first when they are grown. I am also very lucky to have a husband that feels exactly like I do.

I do not understand why the McCanns could not do the same.

Oh, and getting emotional is helping someone...it's helping ME!
I too am emotional over this case, and leaving your children at night alone while you go out for dinner is irresponsible and not in the same catagory of going to the toilet or taking a shower.
I am with you on this Colomom I do not understand why the McCanns did that.

[colomom]

You glitter like a majestic Emerald in my eyes. The great walls of our eternal home are built with layers of Rubies, Sapphires, Emeralds and Gold.

But none more precious than you are to me, for you know how I place you in my heart and the value you are to me. You are worth more than any price I'd ever be able to pay. But your peace, serenity and joy you bring me is a free gift you give to all of us here.

You are my green Emerald that represents the love of this world that I place in the crown of Jesus. Your children will grow up and call you Blessed Mother!

:dance: I know the Angels dance at the throne when you flash in front of our Lord.

Your friend,

Kool...you know I love you and your spirit. Thank you for this very touching post. :blowkiss:

[narlacat]

Actually, I have never left my children "alone", they have always been in the presence an adult that was within earshot. And when they were 3 years old, within eyesight. I even brought them into the bathroom, in their infant carriers, when I took a shower, and I didn't close the curtain. I have always been extremely careful with my gifts, I know just how fragile they are. I agree with you Texana, our children are probably safer in their school environment than playing in our fenced back yard. After all, our schools are in a district very close to Columbine High School.

I made a commitment when I had these kids and that meant that what I wanted came second. There will be time to put myself first when they are grown. I am also very lucky to have a husband that feels exactly like I do.

I do not understand why the McCanns could not do the same.

Oh, and getting emotional is helping someone...it's helping ME!



Well, it must be a nice feeling being a perfect parent- god knows I can't state that claim, mine doesnt come into the shower or toilet with me.

My point was at this stage all the Mc's are guilty of is leaving their kids unattended, posters here (and I'm not directing this comment at you Colomon, but to everyone here) have condemned these people and are accusing them of killing their daughter based solely on the fact they left their kids alone.

[narlacat]

You don't have to trust the universe exactly, you have to trust people like me who are watching them every minute. I cannot even begin to tell you the amount of emphasis given to security at the school where I work and the schools my daughters attend. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but in ours, it is a huge, huge part of our jobs here to keep the children safe. If we have to choose between the academic objective and a safety one we choose safety.

I am sure the teachers down under feel exactly the same way.

We do- and teachers here work the same way.

My point is, sometimes our kids are out of our sight, and in these sometimes [tragic] accidents can and do happen.
The Mc's only crime at this stage is leaving their kids alone.

[Shazza]

Well, it must be a nice feeling being a perfect parent- god knows I can't state that claim, mine doesnt come into the shower or toilet with me.

My point was at this stage all the Mc's are guilty of is leaving their kids unattended, posters here (and I'm not directing this comment at you Colomon, but to everyone here) have condemned these people and are accusing them of killing their daughter based solely on the fact they left their kids alone.

Colomom did not state she was a perfect mother, and neither have any other posters. We have not comdemned the McCanns solely for leaving their children alone, read the whole thread and you will see the inconsistencies and lies told, and then tell me there is not absolutely one bit of doubt in your mind that the parents could be guilty for more than just leaving their children.
We are not stating a fact saying they are guilty we are stating our opinion.

We do- and teachers here work the same way.

My point is, sometimes our kids are out of our sight, and in these sometimes [tragic] accidents can and do happen.
The Mc's only crime at this stage is leaving their kids alone.

Kids cannot be watched 24/7, we know that but when we should be we do, I can honestly say my children when little were never left alone, and they did follow me to the bathroom, or were too little and in a safe place in ear and eye shot when I went to the bathroom, I would make sure my hubby was home before I had a shower. The McCanns left their children alone knowingly, that is a crime and they put their children in Danger.

[lilywhite]

posters here ... have condemned these people and are accusing them of killing their daughter based solely on the fact they left their kids alone.

That's just not true at all. There are lots of reasons to look closely at the McCanns and question their involvement in Maddie's disappearance -- it's hardly just because they left the children alone.

Does that make one question their fitness as parents? Absolutely. Is it a reason to accuse someone of murder? No. Their other actions (detailed at length in this forum for anyone who cares to look) have caused that.

[Rino]

Well, it must be a nice feeling being a perfect parent- god knows I can't state that claim, mine doesnt come into the shower or toilet with me.

My point was at this stage all the Mc's are guilty of is leaving their kids unattended, posters here (and I'm not directing this comment at you Colomon, but to everyone here) have condemned these people and are accusing them of killing their daughter based solely on the fact they left their kids alone.

None of us are perfect parents. But consider Maddie.

Why would you rather she be the victim of an abuction with the fear, pain and terror involved, waiting for her parents to come to her, rather a single moment in time where an accident occured and she never knew what hit her ?

At this point no one knows the truth , you are more concered with her parents feelings rather than those of Maddie. Why is that???

[csds703]

None of us are perfect parents. But consider Maddie.

Why would you rather she be the victim of an abuction with the fear, pain and terror involved, waiting for her parents to come to her, rather a single moment in time where an accident occured and she never knew what hit her ?

At this point no one knows the truth , you are more concered with her parents feelings rather than those of Maddie. Why is that???


This is just an outrageous statement.
Many of us feel that there is just no conclusive evidence that these parents did anything more than leave their children alone.
That does not mean that we are not as concerned about what happened to Maddie.
In fact, we would like ALL OPTIONS to be persued .

[IrishMist]

This is just an outrageous statement.
Many of us feel that there is just no conclusive evidence that these parents did anything more than leave their children alone.
That does not mean that we are not as concerned about what happened to Maddie.
In fact, we would like ALL OPTIONS to be persued .

I agree with this post 100%, csds. :clap:

~~~~~~~~~~


As an aside, I really feel that the McCann's leaving the children has truly colored people's opinions of them, the folks that think they're guilty, especially. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

[colomom]

This is just an outrageous statement.
Many of us feel that there is just no conclusive evidence that these parents did anything more than leave their children alone.
That does not mean that we are not as concerned about what happened to Maddie.
In fact, we would like ALL OPTIONS to be persued .

Outrageous??? I think not.....

I would much rather think that Madeleine (if no longer with us) suffered less than if she had been abducted by a pedophile ring (the thoughts haunt me)....

Seems like a totally logical conclusion to me....

[IrishMist]

Sooo... you're saying you'd rather the parents are guilty because Madeleine may have suffered less?

[csds703]

Outrageous??? I think not.....

I would much rather think that Madeleine (if no longer with us) suffered less than if she had been abducted by a pedophile ring (the thoughts haunt me)....

Seems like a totally logical conclusion to me....

What is illogical is to say that just because some of us have not been convinced it's the parents then we would rather it be a group of pedophiles. Gimme a break.

[Shazza]

Sooo... you're saying you'd rather the parents are guilty because Madeleine may have suffered less?
I dont think anyone wants the parents guilty, we all wish this had never happened at all, whatever has happened. But it has and we are just discussing what could have happened, we all want the best for Madelaine, but it truly looks as if that is not going to be the case.

[IrishMist]

I dont think anyone wants the parents guilty, we all wish this had never happened at all, whatever has happened. But it has and we are just discussing what could have happened, we all want the best for Madelaine, but it truly looks as if that is not going to be the case.

Oh I know that, Shazz. We were remarking on a remark. :D

[ny_]

What do we want/wish? That the McCanns had an a nice, uneventful vacation & that none of us would have heard of them (& that they'd return to the normal family life that should have been theirs).

[Shazza]

Oh I know that, Shazz. We were remarking on a remark. :D
Its the sentimentality coming out of me Irishmist, it just seems that some posters are accusing others of bashing the McCanns when they are only stating an opinion. I know not everyone thinks the same, I just wish it would all run smoothly, but in a case like this, the unexpected does and will happen, and there is going to be disagreement.

[csds703]

Its the sentimentality coming out of me Irishmist, it just seems that some posters are accusing others of bashing the McCanns when they are only stating an opinion. I know not everyone thinks the same, I just wish it would all run smoothly, but in a case like this, the unexpected does and will happen, and there is going to be disagreement.

Hi Shazz

The problem I have with some of the posts about the McCanns is that it goes beyond what the facts are. Right now, this moment in time, the only fact we have is that they were neglectful. Everything else is speculation.
I agree that speculation is fine in order to come to the truth, but the way some posts are worded it goes beyond fact finding and straight to bashing.
Until we have something concrete they are still victims in my eyes.

[colomom]

Sooo... you're saying you'd rather the parents are guilty because Madeleine may have suffered less?

Hell yes!!!! Death by a parent in an accidental manner (which I have theorized from the start) is BY FAR better than the pedophile abduction theory!!!

What is illogical is to say that just because some of us have not been convinced it's the parents then we would rather it be a group of pedophiles. Gimme a break.

WTF are you talking about....I don"t care...MODS block me...I don't care!!!

How in the world did you come to that conclusion??? What did I say to possibly make you come to that conclusion???

All I have ever said is that if YOU PUT YOURSELF IN MADDIES SHOES, WHICH WOULD YOU RATHER SUFFER....DEATH BY A PARENT IN AN ACCIDENTAL FIT OF RAGE OR AT THE HANDS OF A PEDOPHILE????

Give me a break.....There are other options besides being in the hands of a pedophile...anyone with half a brain would be able to figure that out.

[colomom]

Hi Shazz

The problem I have with some of the posts about the McCanns is that it goes beyond what the facts are. Right now, this moment in time, the only fact we have is that they were neglectful. Everything else is speculation.
I agree that speculation is fine in order to come to the truth, but the way some posts are worded it goes beyond fact finding and straight to bashing.
Until we have something concrete they are still victims in my eyes.

It still amazes me that a call to "think outside the box" is interpreted as bashing...shame on that that...expand your mind....

[csds703]

Hell yes!!!! Death by a parent in an accidental manner (which I have theorized from the start) is BY FAR better than the pedophile abduction theory!!!



WTF are you talking about....I don"t care...MODS block me...I don't care!!!

How in the world did you come to that conclusion??? What did I say to possibly make you come to that conclusion???

All I have ever said is that if YOU PUT YOURSELF IN MADDIES SHOES, WHICH WOULD YOU RATHER SUFFER....DEATH BY A PARENT IN AN ACCIDENTAL FIT OF RAGE OR AT THE HANDS OF A PEDOPHILE????

Give me a break.....There are other options besides being in the hands of a pedophile...anyone with half a brain would be able to figure that out.


I think you need to go back and read the previous posts.;)

[Shazza]

Hi Shazz

The problem I have with some of the posts about the McCanns is that it goes beyond what the facts are. Right now, this moment in time, the only fact we have is that they were neglectful. Everything else is speculation.
I agree that speculation is fine in order to come to the truth, but the way some posts are worded it goes beyond fact finding and straight to bashing.
Until we have something concrete they are still victims in my eyes.
Hi csds, even though our emotions shouldnt come into this, and the only fact we have is that Madelaine is missing, you cannot help but get emotional, I cant anyway, if posters dont agree with someone elses post then unless they have something constructive to say, then dont comment on that post as that is when it can become upsetting to some posters. Colomom is putting herself in the shoes of the parents and Madelaine and giving us different angles and opinions for us to discuss, it doesnt mean that she believes that has happened as we all know, nobody really knows what has happened to Madelaine.
I personally cannot see the McCanns as victims until they have be proven not guilty or guilty.

[colomom]

I think you need to go back and read the previous posts.;)

Since you still chose not to be specific in how you came to that conclusion I will suffice it to say:

"just because some of us have not been convinced it's the parents then we would rather it be a group of pedophile"

Does not work at all....what about kidnapping by a group that was angry with the McCanns (for what ever reason, she is being kept safe and free from harm until the "appointed time"...Google Matthew James) or she was kidnapped by a loving Portguese family that wanted a child of their own..or maybe it was the Mason's...or the people in Amsterdam angry with how the IVF procedure was handled....

It is not as black and white as you state it and further STUDY of this case would make that clear to you....

[csds703]

Since you still chose not to be specific in how you came to that conclusion I will suffice it to say:

"just because some of us have not been convinced it's the parents then we would rather it be a group of pedophile"

Does not work at all....what about kidnapping by a group that was angry with the McCanns (for what ever reason, she is being kept safe and free from harm until the "appointed time"...Google Matthew James) or she was kidnapped by a loving Portguese family that wanted a child of their own..or maybe it was the Mason's...or the people in Amsterdam angry with how the IVF procedure was handled....

It is not as black and white as you state it and further STUDY of this case would make that clear to you....


Read my post 45 on page 2.

Then we can talk.

[Texana]

If Madeleine is deceased, I would rather it be from an accidental death than from a pedophile-inflicted death, which I am sure in no way would be merciful.

Either way, we would not all be here if it were not from a decision by the McCanns.

Whether that decision was to leave their children alone and vulnerable to an abductor, when they had the means and ability to pay for supervision, or whether that decision was to cover up an accidental death and in their eyes, salvage their family, we are all trying to figure that out. We may all speculate, argue facts, and present theories as we see fit.

The McCanns' refusal to admit their decision that night had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance is at best, disingenuous, and at worst, manipulative. Continuing to defend it only makes them subject to even more negative reaction.

Again, the McCanns were willing to put their own interests (a nice dinner out with friends) ahead of their living children's best interests (supervision by either a paid sitter, or by a parent if they did not trust strangers). It is not a huge stretch to think that they might not accordingly put their interests (keeping their other children, maintaining their professional careers and livelihoods) ahead of a dead child, whose accidental death could not be foreseen and therefore should not further harm the family.

Even with the abductor scenario, however, the McCanns' refusal to admit any responsibility is questionable. If they are going to become the advocates for missing children, then why not take the "Our children can never be considered safe anymore, anywhere. We must all be aware that they are at risk, and we must not ever again trust in what seems safe" line of thought?

Again, no matter which scenario you believe, it always comes back to the behavior of the McCanns that night and every single day and night that followed.

[concernedperson]

If Madeleine is deceased, I would rather it be from an accidental death than from a pedophile-inflicted death, which I am sure in no way would be merciful.

Either way, we would not all be here if it were not from a decision by the McCanns.

Whether that decision was to leave their children alone and vulnerable to an abductor, when they had the means and ability to pay for supervision, or whether that decision was to cover up an accidental death and in their eyes, salvage their family, we are all trying to figure that out. We may all speculate, argue facts, and present theories as we see fit.

The McCanns' refusal to admit their decision that night had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance is at best, disingenuous, and at worst, manipulative. Continuing to defend it only makes them subject to even more negative reaction.

Again, the McCanns were willing to put their own interests (a nice dinner out with friends) ahead of their living children's best interests (supervision by either a paid sitter, or by a parent if they did not trust strangers). It is not a huge stretch to think that they might not accordingly put their interests (keeping their other children, maintaining their professional careers and livelihoods) ahead of a dead child, whose accidental death could not be foreseen and therefore should not further harm the family.

Even with the abductor scenario, however, the McCanns' refusal to admit any responsibility is questionable. If they are going to become the advocates for missing children, then why not take the "Our children can never be considered safe anymore, anywhere. We must all be aware that they are at risk, and we must not ever again trust in what seems safe" line of thought?

Again, no matter which scenario you believe, it always comes back to the behavior of the McCanns that night and every single day and night that followed.

Excellent post and I don't think anyone could have said it better. Selfish parents have to be looked at when a selfish deed has been done to a child. If there is another alternative it will eventually come out but in the interim the means and opportunity were in the family of Maddie.

[AfterMidnight]

Back at square one after going 'round and 'round. The McCanns left the kiddies alone - they are guilty of something, they have to be, because they didn't do things the way some people feel they should be done. I believe the McCanns hit a nerve and people would do well to look inside and find out why.

[pinto]

Outrageous??? I think not.....

I would much rather think that Madeleine (if no longer with us) suffered less than if she had been abducted by a pedophile ring (the thoughts haunt me)....

Seems like a totally logical conclusion to me....

I think the point is that what we'd "rather" have happened has absolutely no bearing on anything. Some of us don't see it as a logical conclusion, because our feelings about the parents or the child or the police or the press are irrelevant when looking at this case and trying to figure out what actually happened.

Sherlock Holmes was a cold bastard, you know! ;)

[BethInAK]

Back at square one after going 'round and 'round. The McCanns left the kiddies alone - they are guilty of something, they have to be, because they didn't do things the way some people feel they should be done. I believe the McCanns hit a nerve and people would do well to look inside and find out why.

If thats what you think people are saying, then you need to read again.

The reason that many of us are so outraged at the McCanns is not because they "hit a nerve", its because what they did is so outside the realm of reasonable parenting expectations that it is incomprehensible. And while the act itself is incomprehensible, the lack of remorse and of admission of the unbeleivable neglect is also incomprehensible.

[blaize]

If thats what you think people are saying, then you need to read again.

The reason that many of us are so outraged at the McCanns is not because they "hit a nerve", its because what they did is so outside the realm of reasonable parenting expectations that it is incomprehensible. And while the act itself is incomprehensible, the lack of remorse and of admission of the unbeleivable neglect is also incomprehensible.

If it's so out of the realm of reasonable parenting expectations that it is incomprehensible why does the Mark Warner brochure state on page 86 that "The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when our nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to you."?

Doesn't that more than imply that leaving the children alone in the rooms while the parents have dinner is an accepted option for resort guests since the service wouldn't be offered or worded as such if guests were not availing of it regularly?

The only difference with the McCann's is that they & their friends chose to check on the children themselves.

[Shazza]

If it's so out of the realm of reasonable parenting expectations that it is incomprehensible why does the Mark Warner brochure state on page 86 that "The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when our nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to you."?

Doesn't that more than imply that leaving the children alone in the rooms while the parents have dinner is an accepted option for resort guests since the service wouldn't be offered or worded as such if guests were not availing of it regularly?

The only difference with the McCann's is that they & their friends chose to check on the children themselves.
But did they check on their children, there is conflicting evidence about the McCanns checking on their children.

[blaize]

But did they check on their children, there is conflicting evidence about the McCanns checking on their children.

Hello Shazza, can you link me to the conflicting evidence please?

It was my impression from reading here and researching that the McCann's & their friends had checked a number of times.

Thanks in advance.

[Shazza]

Hello Shazza, can you link me to the conflicting evidence please?

It was my impression from reading here and researching that the McCann's & their friends had checked a number of times.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Blaize,
The staff at the restaurant said that noone left the restaurant, the parents tell another story, a witness named Jeremy said something else, there is nothing to substantiate the different stories that are being said about who and when the children were checked, will try and find the link if anyone else knows where there is a link please jump in and show us.

[blaize]

Hi Blaize,
The staff at the restaurant said that noone left the restaurant, the parents tell another story, a witness named Jeremy said something else, there is nothing to substantiate the different stories that are being said about who and when the children were checked, will try and find the link if anyone else knows where there is a link please jump in and show us.

Thanks Shazza. I remember it being reported that Jeremy Wilkins was talking to Gerry on his way back after checking the children & that they were still talking when Jane Tanner returned from her bed checks.

Also this is what I found from the waiter from the Tapas bar.

[Source (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/16154/The-only-suspects-/)]
The unnamed waiter at the Ocean Club tapas bar claims that GP Kate failed to join pals in a desperate search for the little girl after raising the alarm. And he alleges that the couple didn’t check on their children every 15 minutes during the night of Maddie’s disappearance.
The waiter told Portuguese daily Correio da Manha: “We looked right round the area. We searched everywhere for that girl and her mum stayed indoors.
“It’s clear she was upset but she didn’t look for Madeleine.”
He added: “They arrived at the restaurant about 8pm. They were in a big group and ate dinner every day at the tapas bar. We didn’t notice anything strange.
“I can’t say what they ate. I don’t know exactly who got up from the table and when they did so. The only thing I am certain about is they weren’t going to check up on the children in their rooms every 15 minutes.

I couldn't find where anyone said they didn't check at all only questioned the frequency of their checks. Let me know if I missed something please.

Thanks again

[Shazza]

Thanks Shazza. I remember it being reported that Jeremy Wilkins was talking to Gerry on his way back after checking the children & that they were still talking when Jane Tanner returned from her bed checks.

Also this is what I found from the waiter from the Tapas bar.

[Source (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/16154/The-only-suspects-/)]


I couldn't find where anyone said they didn't check at all only questioned the frequency of their checks. Let me know if I missed something please.

Thanks again
Thanks for your link Blaize, but I know I read somewhere that Jane Turner changed her statement in reference to seeing someone carrying a child which could have been Madelaine wrapped in a blanket wearing Pink PJ's, and there was someone that Jeremy did not see, whom were suppose to be checking the children at pretty much the same time Gerry did. I cannot direct you to the link, as my brain is on go slow at the moment, but I do know that I have read the timelines the McCanns and their friends said they checked on their children does not add up with statements of staff and other witnesses. You would have to read all the threads, and you will find that this has been discussed in detail.

[blaize]

Thanks for your link Blaize, but I know I read somewhere that Jane Turner changed her statement in reference to seeing someone carrying a child which could have been Madelaine wrapped in a blanket wearing Pink PJ's, and there was someone that Jeremy did not see, whom were suppose to be checking the children at pretty much the same time Gerry did. I cannot direct you to the link, as my brain is on go slow at the moment, but I do know that I have read the timelines the McCanns and their friends said they checked on their children does not add up with statements of staff and other witnesses. You would have to read all the threads, and you will find that this has been discussed in detail.

Aww Shazza my brain will explode.


Neither Gerry or Jeremy saw Jane on her return trip from checking the children.

[Shazza]

Aww Shazza my brain will explode.


Neither Gerry or Jeremy saw Jane on her return trip from checking the children.

Mine has already,:p so much of this is repetition, and I just have not got the memory required to direct you to the links that have the information to back up my posts, this is where colomom excels, I assure you that what I say is not made up, that in amongst all this information we have gone over and over the same points with new posters. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you.

[blaize]

Mine has already,:p so much of this is repetition, and I just have not got the memory required to direct you to the links that have the information to back up my posts, this is where colomom excels, I assure you that what I say is not made up, that in amongst all this information we have gone over and over the same points with new posters. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you.

Oh heck Shazza, I don't for one second think you're making stuff up, just trying to keep up with everything is making my brain boggle. Thanks for your help and input.

[Shazza]

Oh heck Shazza, I don't for one second think you're making stuff up, just trying to keep up with everything is making my brain boggle. Thanks for your help and input.
Your welcome blaize, just sorry that I couldnt answer the questions or direct you to the links you required.

[narlacat]

Oh heck Shazza, I don't for one second think you're making stuff up, just trying to keep up with everything is making my brain boggle. Thanks for your help and input.

It helps if people have links to back up what they are saying- otherwise they could just be saying anything.

Saying they heard it on this forum is hardly gospel either.

[Shazza]

It helps if people have links to back up what they are saying- otherwise they could just be saying anything.

Saying they heard it on this forum is hardly gospel either.
This whole forum is a link, with so much information it is hard to keep track where your have read it, and when you have participated in this case from the beginning, you get a little tired of repeating yourself. I do not lie. All the posts I have posted are either my opinions or information that is stated on this forum.

[csds703]

It still amazes me that a call to "think outside the box" is interpreted as bashing...shame on that that...expand your mind....


Well maybe she was abducted by aliens who whisked her back to the mother ship :rolleyes:

[Shazza]

I think there are a few posters including me who are getting a little frustrated, we have to remember who and what this thread is about, Madelaine is out there somewhere and bickering between ourselves is not helping her. I pray that this will soon be over.

[csds703]

I think there are a few posters including me who are getting a little frustrated, we have to remember who and what this thread is about, Madelaine is out there somewhere and bickering between ourselves is not helping her. I pray that this will soon be over.

Shazz

This should be about finding this little girl and searching for the truth.
I truly do not know what happened to her, but I do know that we should be looking for facts not just quoting rag papers that support our theories.

[AfterMidnight]

I think there are a few posters including me who are getting a little frustrated, we have to remember who and what this thread is about, Madelaine is out there somewhere and bickering between ourselves is not helping her. I pray that this will soon be over.

What isn't helping is the CONSTANT harping on the fact that Madeleine and the twins were (gasp) left alone. It happened. Get over it. Let's concentrate on where Madeleine is now. PLEASE?????

[SleuthMom]

What it does not help is people constantly complaining about what others say, post or feel. Why is their darn business? Geez. If someone do not like what others post, just do not read it and get over it! Who is here to point out fingers on what should we post, say or even criticize? Not me! So if I want to criticize the Mc Canns for leaving their three tots alone, I would do it as many times as I feel to. Period. The whole issue here is that some people want to tell others what they should post, what sources they should use, how they should feel...ridiculous. If someone wants to quote from a tabloid magazine is their business and their right. Do not like it, too bad, don't read it. Let others post the things they WANT to post, if some people find it too hard to digest then they need a tolerance pill. :rolleyes:

[AfterMidnight]

What it does not help is people constantly complaining about what others say, post or feel. Why is their darn business? Geez. If someone do not like what others post, just do not read it and get over it! Who is here to point out fingers on what should we post, say or even criticize? Not me! So if I want to criticize the Mc Canns for leaving their three tots alone, I would do it as many times as I feel to. Period. The whole issue here is that some people want to tell others what they should post, what sources they should use, how they should feel...ridiculous. If someone wants to quote from a tabloid magazine is their business and their right. Do not like it, too bad, don't read it. Let others post the things they WANT to post, if some people find it too hard to digest then they need a tolerance pill. :rolleyes:

Problem is, people keep saying it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, until no one can get any other point across. It always reverts back to, "they left the childern alone". OK, yes, they did. There are worse things in this world kapish? Abducting a child and sexually abusing it is worse, right? Right?

[ceeaura]

Abducting a child and sexually abusing it is worse, right? Right?


Abducting a child and sexually abusing is wrong.So is leaving 3 small children alone so that it makes it even easier for a child to get abducted and sexually abused is also wrong.IMO.

[Squishified]

What it does not help is people constantly complaining about what others say, post or feel. Why is their darn business? Geez. If someone do not like what others post, just do not read it and get over it! Who is here to point out fingers on what should we post, say or even criticize? Not me! So if I want to criticize the Mc Canns for leaving their three tots alone, I would do it as many times as I feel to. Period. The whole issue here is that some people want to tell others what they should post, what sources they should use, how they should feel...ridiculous. If someone wants to quote from a tabloid magazine is their business and their right. Do not like it, too bad, don't read it. Let others post the things they WANT to post, if some people find it too hard to digest then they need a tolerance pill. :rolleyes:
Hi SleuthMom,
I don't post a lot on the Maddie threads, but I want you to know I agree with you. :blowkiss:
I do not have sympathy for the McCann's. To me, there is NO excuse to leave a 3 year old (and the younger twins) alone.
I also want to thank colomom and everyone who has worked so hard to provide links and translations.

[Rino]

This is just an outrageous statement.
Many of us feel that there is just no conclusive evidence that these parents did anything more than leave their children alone.
That does not mean that we are not as concerned about what happened to Maddie.
In fact, we would like ALL OPTIONS to be persued .
So what? That has nothing to do with what I said.

From the victims standpoint, Maddie, I would stand by what I said.

Right now we don't know for sure her parents are indeed victims at all - do we? There are worse things than having the finger pointed at you, d'oh your child missing. They have done this to themsevs, if someone else is found to have committed this crime - then I would be wrong, so sue me. If they are guilty, will all this moral superiority at standing by them keep anyone warm at night?

Someone did this and they are as likely as any.

[blaize]

It helps if people have links to back up what they are saying- otherwise they could just be saying anything.

Saying they heard it on this forum is hardly gospel either.

Hello narlacat, I knew I had missed out on answering someone earlier, please forgive my tardiness.

I take your point about backing up what's posted either as theory, supposition or fact with a link. I do try where possible and if I don't know I ask someone to point me to a specific snippet of information. I know many poster's find it annoying because they say topics have been discussed over again & again but without links to help me verify what has or has not been reported or said I'm unable to contribute anything much because my personal opinion is tinged with horror at the possibilities Madeleine's disappearance gives rise to.

Thanks for replying to me.

[philamena]

If thats what you think people are saying, then you need to read again.

The reason that many of us are so outraged at the McCanns is not because they "hit a nerve", its because what they did is so outside the realm of reasonable parenting expectations that it is incomprehensible. And while the act itself is incomprehensible, the lack of remorse and of admission of the unbeleivable neglect is also incomprehensible.

BethInAK,
If you're pointing to the McCann's leaving the children alone as neglect (which I personally agree with) then you must read the thread here about the Paul Warner Resorts. Evidently leaving children alone is an accepted thing in other countries. It isn't thought of as neglect. Then again, leaving children alone my be accepted by them IF a nanny or speakers are used.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53835

[philamena]

Shazz

This should be about finding this little girl and searching for the truth.
I truly do not know what happened to her, but I do know that we should be looking for facts not just quoting rag papers that support our theories.

I agree! It's frustrating knowing which media sources are legit and which ones are not.

[SleuthMom]

Problem is, people keep saying it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, until no one can get any other point across. It always reverts back to, "they left the childern alone". OK, yes, they did. There are worse things in this world kapish? Abducting a child and sexually abusing it is worse, right? Right?

I am having computer problems so that's why I could not reply earlier. :)

I suppose you will have just come to terms with the fact that people think different than you do and they express their views differently than you do and there is really nothing you can do about it. You can choose to reply to the posts or just ignore those posts you consider to be repetitive. What you may consider to be "worst" or not, is merely your opinion and that's what we all do here, express our views.

All the best,
Sleuth

[pinto]

I am having computer problems so that's why I could not reply earlier. :)

I suppose you will have just come to terms with the fact that people think different than you do and they express their views differently than you do and there is really nothing you can do about it. You can choose to reply to the posts or just ignore those posts you consider to be repetitive. What you may consider to be "worst" or not, is merely your opinion and that's what we all do here, express our views.

All the best,
Sleuth

Precisely.

Across the Atlantic, parents leave their children alone in different ways than they do in the US, and it doesn't mean they are bad, irresponsible parents. It isn't "incomprehensible," as another poster said.

Thanks!:)

[southcitymom]

Stick around, colomom! We are really glad to have you here and we need you!

Don't be so hard on yourself. Most everyone here at Websleuths has the ability to be very passionate about any given case at any given time. We love each other in spite of these things!

:blowkiss: SCM

[SleuthMom]

Precisely.

Across the Atlantic, parents leave their children alone in different ways than they do in the US, and it doesn't mean they are bad, irresponsible parents. It isn't "incomprehensible," as another poster said.

Thanks!:)

Not sure why you tried to take my words out of context but is all fine. ;)

I suppose in the end, we have a missing child. Whether in China, Papua New Guinea or Tanzania leaving three kids by themselves when parents go party may not seem to be a big deal, nevertheless the fact remains the same: Because of it, we have a toddler missing.

[AfterMidnight]

Not sure why you tried to take my words out of context but is all fine. ;)

I suppose in the end, we have a missing child. Whether in China, Papua New Guinea or Tanzania leaving three kids by themselves when parents go party may not seem to be a big deal, nevertheless the fact remains the same: Because of it, we have a toddler missing.

I didn't do the bolding above, but I agree it is the most important part of the post.

First, if the parents are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, it isn't
"Because of it" - leaving the children alone. If the parents "did it", Madeleine would have been demised BEFORE the parents selfishly left their children alone to go out and party with their friends.

Secondly, if Maddie was abducted, I believe the abductor (the one doing the abducting) is at fault. "How so?" you may ask. Because he/she took someone else's child without their permission and that's against the law. Maddie isn't missing "Because of it" , she's missing because a criminal took her. How many cases have we seen in recent years where children have been taken when the parents were at home? Elizabeth Smart is a good example and there are lots of others. No child is missing Because of it , they're missing because some criminal stole/kidnapped/abducted that child and broke the laws of God and man.

Think, if you will, about a rape victim. Remember when people said, "She was asking for it by wearing a dress like that?" That mind set was taking the responsibility off the rapist and putting it on the victim. I see the same thing happening in this case - the victims being victimized and, until proven otherwise, Madeleine and the McCanns are victims.

Madeleine isn't missing Because of it , she's missing because someone illegally took her or she was dead prior to it .

[IrishMist]

I didn't do the bolding above, but I agree it is the most important part of the post.

First, if the parents are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, it isn't
"Because of it" - leaving the children alone. If the parents "did it", Madeleine would have been demised BEFORE the parents selfishly left their children alone to go out and party with their friends.

Secondly, if Maddie was abducted, I believe the abductor (the one doing the abducting) is at fault. "How so?" you may ask. Because he/she took someone else's child without their permission and that's against the law. Maddie isn't missing "Because of it" , she's missing because a criminal took her. How many cases have we seen in recent years where children have been taken when the parents were at home? Elizabeth Smart is a good example and there are lots of others. No child is missing Because of it , they're missing because some criminal stole/kidnapped/abducted that child and broke the laws of God and man.

Think, if you will, about a rape victim. Remember when people said, "She was asking for it by wearing a dress like that?" That mind set was taking the responsibility off the rapist and putting it on the victim. I see the same thing happening in this case - the victims being victimized and, until proven otherwise, Madeleine and the McCanns are victims.

Madeleine isn't missing Because of it , she's missing because someone illegally took her or she was dead prior to it .

Excellent post, AfterMidnight. I agree with everything you wrote. :clap:

[ThoughtFox]

I don't come here to tell anyone else what they should think about the McCanns, and I would just appreciate the same courtesy.

If I believe it is neglectful to leave those children alone, then I will say so.

I don't care where they live or what is "the norm." It is not my norm, and I'm not European, but I am a mother of three, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

I've been on Websleuths a long time, through the cases of Chandra Levy, Elizabeth Smart, and all the way through the Laci Peterson case (from day one). I know how heated these things can be, and how different opinions can be - like night and day.

But we cannot tell others to stop repeating things - that isn't fair and it isn't a logical way to approach a crime. Police have to look at things, and then go back and look again.

These cases are by nature repetitive, and everyone who worked on the Peterson case knows that little things can show back up later as more significant than they originally appeared.

I am already tired of hearing how a lack of babysitters is "accepted." I would remind everyone that it used to "accepted" to beat your children, too, but luckily civilization marches on.

But anyone can keep repeating whatever they believe, and I will keep repeating what I believe. That's the way this works on a forum.

[AfterMidnight]

I don't come here to tell anyone else what they should think about the McCanns, and I would just appreciate the same courtesy.

If I believe it is neglectful to leave those children alone, then I will say so.

I don't care where they live or what is "the norm." It is not my norm, and I'm not European, but I am a mother of three, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

I've been on Websleuths a long time, through the cases of Chandra Levy, Elizabeth Smart, and all the way through the Laci Peterson case (from day one). I know how heated these things can be, and how different opinions can be - like night and day.

But we cannot tell others to stop repeating things - that isn't fair and it isn't a logical way to approach a crime. Police have to look at things, and then go back and look again.

These cases are by nature repetitive, and everyone who worked on the Peterson case knows that little things can show back up later as more significant than they originally appeared.

I am already tired of hearing how a lack of babysitters is "accepted." I would remind everyone that it used to "accepted" to beat your children, too, but luckily civilization marches on.

But anyone can keep repeating whatever they believe, and I will keep repeating what I believe. That's the way this works on a forum.

The bolding is mine. I believe we should try to find Madeleine.

[Rino]

First, if the parents are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, it isn't
"Because of it" - leaving the children alone. If the parents "did it", Madeleine would have been demised BEFORE the parents selfishly left their children alone to go out and party with their friends.

If they did it, it is because the children were left alone the gave them the opportunity to dispose of her. No nanny or listening device to hinder them.

[AfterMidnight]

If they did it, it is because the children were left alone the gave them the opportunity to dispose of her. No nanny or listening device to hinder them.

I don't quite understand. Left alone with whom? The parents?

[ThoughtFox]

The bolding is mine. I believe we should try to find Madeleine.
That's what we all want, I believe.

However, since this is a crime forum, and a crime has been committed, I intend to discuss every avenue for justice.

I put justice and truth first. My compassion for Maddie is the reason I'm here at all.

[Rino]

I don't quite understand. Left alone with whom? The parents?

No, left without supervision while they ate.

If the parents are responsable for her death, it is because the children were left alone she went missing. A nanny would botch up the abduction hoax or at least make it much more complicated.

If she was dead before dinner, there is no neglect in her being left without supervision. But, they then left the twins alone with her corpse to facilitate their cover up.

[SleuthMom]

I didn't do the bolding above, but I agree it is the most important part of the post.

First, if the parents are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, it isn't
"Because of it" - leaving the children alone. If the parents "did it", Madeleine would have been demised BEFORE the parents selfishly left their children alone to go out and party with their friends.

Secondly, if Maddie was abducted, I believe the abductor (the one doing the abducting) is at fault. "How so?" you may ask. Because he/she took someone else's child without their permission and that's against the law. Maddie isn't missing "Because of it" , she's missing because a criminal took her. How many cases have we seen in recent years where children have been taken when the parents were at home? Elizabeth Smart is a good example and there are lots of others. No child is missing Because of it , they're missing because some criminal stole/kidnapped/abducted that child and broke the laws of God and man.

Think, if you will, about a rape victim. Remember when people said, "She was asking for it by wearing a dress like that?" That mind set was taking the responsibility off the rapist and putting it on the victim. I see the same thing happening in this case - the victims being victimized and, until proven otherwise, Madeleine and the McCanns are victims.

Madeleine isn't missing Because of it , she's missing because someone illegally took her or she was dead prior to it .

I wrote this long message but I am having internet connection problems so it did not post! :( Basically, I want to say we will have to agree to disagree on this one. You do not seem to believe it is such a big deal to leave tots unsupervised while the parents ate dinner with friends and even more you do not seem to believe that leaving the kids alone was the caused of the crime being committed in the first place. No sense to argue against common sense. With that reasoning, we will not use car or home alarms, babysitters or baby monitors...we would walk in the middle of the road because a car can kill us anyways and we would leave our kids to walk at night by themselves around town because if a predator would catch them, would get them with or without supervision. I am not going to argue against simply common sense.

Having said that, as stated before every poster is free to tackle the matter in the way he/she sees it fit. IF they want to repeat themselves a hundred times, so it be, nobody should point out fingers on "what should be done", what should be posted, what should be said, what should be felt.

Again, a tolerance issue.

[colomom]

Hello Friends...

I am going to have to agree with Sleuthmom and say that it would probably be better to agree to disagree on this one...BUT

If you still want to discuss it, please move here -------> http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53153

That is the Do you think the parents were involved thread.

Of course anyone that would like to add an Open Letter To The Forum....please feel free to do so here!!

I hate to ask to have it shut down but it is way off topic...

[AfterMidnight]

I wrote this long message but I am having internet connection problems so it did not post! :( Basically, I want to say we will have to agree to disagree on this one. You do not seem to believe it is such a big deal to leave tots unsupervised while the parents ate dinner with friends and even more you do not seem to believe that leaving the kids alone was the caused of the crime being committed in the first place. No sense to argue against common sense. With that reasoning, we will not use car or home alarms, babysitters or baby monitors...we would walk in the middle of the road because a car can kill us anyways and we would leave our kids to walk at night by themselves around town because if a predator would catch them, would get them with or without supervision. I am not going to argue against simply common sense.

Having said that, as stated before every poster is free to tackle the matter in the way he/she sees it fit. IF they want to repeat themselves a hundred times, so it be, nobody should point out fingers on "what should be done", what should be posted, what should be said, what should be felt.

Again, a tolerance issue.

Repeating ones self a hundred times is everyone's perogative. I wonder, however, how that helps in finding Maddie?

[pinto]

Madeleine isn't missing Because of it , she's missing because someone illegally took her or she was dead prior to it .

:clap:

[colomom]

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs108.gif

[southcitymom]

I didn't do the bolding above, but I agree it is the most important part of the post.

First, if the parents are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, it isn't
"Because of it" - leaving the children alone. If the parents "did it", Madeleine would have been demised BEFORE the parents selfishly left their children alone to go out and party with their friends.

Secondly, if Maddie was abducted, I believe the abductor (the one doing the abducting) is at fault. "How so?" you may ask. Because he/she took someone else's child without their permission and that's against the law. Maddie isn't missing "Because of it" , she's missing because a criminal took her. How many cases have we seen in recent years where children have been taken when the parents were at home? Elizabeth Smart is a good example and there are lots of others. No child is missing Because of it , they're missing because some criminal stole/kidnapped/abducted that child and broke the laws of God and man.

Think, if you will, about a rape victim. Remember when people said, "She was asking for it by wearing a dress like that?" That mind set was taking the responsibility off the rapist and putting it on the victim. I see the same thing happening in this case - the victims being victimized and, until proven otherwise, Madeleine and the McCanns are victims.

Madeleine isn't missing Because of it , she's missing because someone illegally took her or she was dead prior to it .

Excellent post!!

[southcitymom]

Repeating ones self a hundred times is everyone's perogative. I wonder, however, how that helps in finding Maddie?

Because it keeps her in our minds - as we and others continue to try to figure out what happened.

[Salem]

Problem is, people keep saying it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, until no one can get any other point across. It always reverts back to, "they left the childern alone". OK, yes, they did. There are worse things in this world kapish? Abducting a child and sexually abusing it is worse, right? Right?

Yes, it is definitely worse, but worse yet, is leaving 3 defenseless children alone and putting them in a position where someone could do such a thing with NO ONE there to even attempt to protect them.

Salem

[Texana]

Yes, it is definitely worse, but worse yet, is leaving 3 defenseless children alone and putting them in a position where someone could do such a thing with NO ONE there to even attempt to protect them.

Salem
:clap:

Exactly! And I'm not sure that's something I want any of us to ever get over.