Madeleine died 'after large sleeping pill overdose'

[Rino]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811
Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported tonight.

A respected French newspaper said it had seen evidence that body fluids found in the boot of her parents' hire car proved the missing girl had been sedated.
France Soir said DNA analysis of the fluids showed the four-year-old had ingested larged quantities of sleeping pills. The newspaper said it had seen "hard evidence", now in the hands of the Portuguese authorities, about Madeleine's "death".........


Guilhem Battut, an investigative journalist with the paper, said a report outlining how she died was already with Portuguese prosecutors. He said scientific analyses of the fluids found in the car boot "prove that the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in large quantities". These would have caused "an overdose", said Battut's report.

(snip)


I posted this in another thread, but I thought it was very interesting and didn't want it buried.

[Trino]

Interesting, but how did Madeline get the sleeping pills? Kate? Gerry? Or, did she take them herself?

[Rino]

Either way it looks like the negligence went far beyond leaving them unattended.

[Trino]

Agreed. The McCanns surely know what happened.

[Taximom]

This makes me want to sit on the fence again. My own children (especially when they were her age) have thought pills were candy and wanted some. Same with the liquids. They look like kool-aid to them.

Fortunately the lids have been on (child-proof cap) when we've left them in reach accidentally. Normally everything is up high and locked, but sometimes they were left out. :( I'm blessed that nothing happened to my children.

If this was purely accidental, I can see where they would want to cover it up being doctors and all. It's not something I would do though, and it's certainly not what should have been done. IF that's the case here anyway. Who knows.

Maybe she took the pills and then threw up, getting it in her hair. That mixture (stomach contents) might have been in the numerous hairs found in the trunk.

Thanks for the updates.

[Pinkhammer]

Interesting, but how did Madeline get the sleeping pills? Kate? Gerry? Or, did she take them herself?

When the parents are either drunk or hungover every single day on holiday, it's easy to see how they could get mixed up dosing their kids with sedatives. I think the sedatives were administered by one of the parents, and they gave poor little Maddie double or triple so Mrs. Fenn wouldn't report her crying, while they caroused with their swinger friends and 14 bottles of wine.

[teacherbees]

Even if Madeleine took the pills on her own, I'm still holding the parents culpable.

First, they left a three old alone. You can't trust three year olds and, as doctors, Kate and Gerry should know better than most the horrible possible ramifications of doing so.

Secondly, back to the doctor thing. Where the heck were these pills if Madeleine got into them? Two doctors should most certainly know better than to leave medicines ANYWHERE out in the open with children in the house, especially if they're callous and selfish enough to leave three babies home alone while they go out and party.

If it's true that Madeleine died of an overdose, I think the theory is more likely to be that Gerry and Kate both gave her a good strong dose, without knowing that the other one did. This was a "hysterical" child who was getting in the way of their good times and they were tired of dealing with her.

Stupid, stupid people. Geez, it makes me fume to think that there were so many resources available to them to make sure their children were looked after. But NO, they think it's just peachy to leave their kids alone in a strange country.

If they'd taken the advice of the resort and obtained childcare for their BABIES, Madeleine would be alive today. I don't care how you slice and dice it, the McCanns caused their daughter's death. Pure and simple.

[Pinkhammer]

Taximom, it has been reported that syringes were found in the apartment, leading police to believe that the sedatives were given to the children as shots, not pills.

Unless Gerry and Kate have another little "habit"...besides the alcohol.

[Guruinu2]

I hope that hair samples from the twins are tested....If there are indications of sedatives It would be very telling IMO.

[NK57]

This one takes me off the fence. I had a patient/client a few years back who would grind up her ambien sleeping medication and give it got her PDD pre-school age daughter. She saw nothing really wrong with it as it made bed time "tolerable" and she was able to get her "mommy time" by 8:00 pm. She didn't care that it was unsafe for her child or that it had cumulative effects. CPS was referred in this case. The child ended up being placed with the paternal grandparents in this case. So... I am not surprised at this turn of events.

Nancy

[Pinkhammer]

Guru, they better get those samples before Gerry has the kids get a "buzz" cut!

[Taximom]

Thanks for all the "extra" info. I forgot about the syringes. I also hold the parents responsible!

[Ca-Sun]

Maybe the children were sedated to be sure they wouldn't wake up while the parents were out to dinner, having a great time with their friends.

[SleuthMom]

The report speaks of a LARGE dose of pills, unless team Mc Cann is more stupid than we think, I don't think they would give the child a large dose just to keep her quiet...not to that "large" amount. The large dose seems to be that could be the girl taking it on her own or someone deliberately killing her.

[Pinkhammer]

Do you think it would be much easier to give an accidental overdose by syringe than by pills? I know kiddos have a hard time swallowing pills and are often reluctant to do so.

[Guruinu2]

Unless they were sugar coated gummy bear sleeping pills I have yet to hear about, I doubt that a three or 4 year old child would be interested in consuming "Large amounts of them".

[NK57]

I would not be surprised if they were adult pill that had been mortered in to powder and given with oral syringe.

Nancy

[Pinkhammer]

Also...a deliberate killing? That is chilling. Can a mother hate an innocent child so much as to plan and premeditate her murder? Why was the nanny left behind in England? Why did Kate not bring her mom, Mrs. Healy along, to watch the kids, as Fiona (last name?) did??? Why did the McCanns not take advantage of all the various child care options afforded by the resort?

Was it all preplanned this way, so that Kate could get rid of her "hysterical" child in a foreign country, far from the scrutiny of the excellent British police agencies?

[BrendaStar]

Sounds like they sedated the kids so they would sleep soundly while mom and pops were out to dinner and boozing it up with the wine. Perhaps Maddie woke up and took some more of the candy?

Everyone knows that young kids get up during the night. They are thirsty or have to go to the washroom or miss their parents. It's not so much of a stretch that they would give them something so that they would sleep soundly and not wake up while they were with their friends. Afterall, they are doctors.

If this is actually true, it reeks of child abuse.:doh:

[Guruinu2]

Also...a deliberate killing? That is chilling. Can a mother hate an innocent child so much as to plan and premeditate her murder? Why was the nanny left behind in England? Why did Kate not bring her mom, Mrs. Healy along, to watch the kids, as Fiona (last name?) did??? Why did the McCanns not take advantage of all the various child care options afforded by the resort?

Was it all preplanned this way, so that Kate could get rid of her "hysterical" child in a foreign country, far from the scrutiny of the excellent British police agencies?
Sounds to me like they might be cheap, hiding something or both. I wonder what expenses they would have incurred with the various baby sitting options available to them?

[Brefie]

Also...a deliberate killing? That is chilling. Can a mother hate an innocent child so much as to plan and premeditate her murder? Why was the nanny left behind in England? Why did Kate not bring her mom, Mrs. Healy along, to watch the kids, as Fiona (last name?) did??? Why did the McCanns not take advantage of all the various child care options afforded by the resort?

Was it all preplanned this way, so that Kate could get rid of her "hysterical" child in a foreign country, far from the scrutiny of the excellent British police agencies?

Has it been established that they have a nanny?

[SleuthMom]

Do you think it would be much easier to give an accidental overdose by syringe than by pills? I know kiddos have a hard time swallowing pills and are often reluctant to do so. Oh yes, is much easier by syringe than by pills. Madeleine was only three years old and quite an active child, MOST kids IF they may get into an accident wont' swallow a LAGE amount of pills...they do not taste nothing like candy! The report speaks of a LARGE amount. Can a mother hate an innocent child so much as to plan and premeditate her murder? Unfortunately, CAN happen. Even more if she is a woman who wants to live a certain lifestyle and she is having three kids (3 and under) and is unable to control them. Does anyone know if Kate suffered of post-partum depression?

[Morag]

There have been varying translations (from English to Portuguese back to English) of what Mrs. Fenn heard Madeleine saying on the night of May 1. Originally, it was Daddy, Daddy, I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Then Daddy, Daddy, I eat, I eat. The most recent version was Daddy, Daddy, I swallow, I swallow. Did she swallow pills?

[NK57]

There have been varying translations (from English to Portuguese back to English) of what Mrs. Fenn heard Madeleine saying on the night of May 1. Originally, it was Daddy, Daddy, I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Then Daddy, Daddy, I eat, I eat. The most recent version was Daddy, Daddy, I swallow, I swallow. Did she swallow pills?


Wow thats scary. I wonder what Daddy did when she didn't "take her medicine like a good girl".

[Morag]

...Even more if she is a woman who wants to live a certain lifestyle and she is having three kids (3 and under) and is unable to control them. Does anyone know if Kate suffered of post-partum depression?

Here's a quote from the media thread:

''...it was Kate who usually took care of the children, putting them to bed regularly, while Gerry played tennis or rested by the pool. The deposition of the senior British citizen (Pamela Fenn), who occupied an apartment on the floor above the one that was used by the McCanns, also indicates that Kate sometimes became violent. She lost control, and it was easy to hear the girl’s screams, calling out for her father. Another witness, also a British citizen, refers the same scenario. Kate seemed to have moments of aggression towards her children, while the father, although more absent, revealed more emotional control.''

Apparently this scenario of depression and agression is spelled out in Kate's journal/diary. Now I wonder who the other British citizen is? Is it one of the Tapas group, perhaps Dianne Webster?

[sleuthin4fun]

Still believe that the parents are to blame but, is it possible that they had been sedating the children at night so they would sleep through dinner ect..... Did Maddie have difficulty going to sllep that evening so, she went to look for the "sleepy time pills" (my words) and take more so that she would be able to sleep? I could see that being a good possibility if the pills were within her reach. It still would mean though that the parents have attempted a cover-up.

[SleuthMom]

Hmmm..became violent? This would indicate that Mrs. Fenn either HEARD or SAW Kate being "violent" towards the kids. There is a big difference between being violent and aggressive.

[SleuthMom]

The only thing that I am not convinced about this drug overdose theory is: IF they were giving Maddie pills/sedatives to sleep, how come the night before Mrs. Fenn heard her crying for 75 minutes and her parents had to return to the apartment because of it? If she was being "drugged" she should have no reason to get up at all!

[sleuthin4fun]

My biggest concern with Mrs. Fenn is why did she not come out with all this info in the beginning? It was a lengthy period of tim ebefore she had told police about Maddies evening crying session. Now she claims that Kate was violent and aggressive. I am not saying that I don't believe it. I guess my question is, Why now?

[kiltubrid]

The only thing that I am not convinced about this drug overdose theory is: IF they were giving Maddie pills/sedatives to sleep, how come the night before Mrs. Fenn heard her crying for 75 minutes and her parents had to return to the apartment because of it? If she was being "drugged" she should have no reason to get up at all!

Perhaps May 3 was the first night she was given a sedative, and it was done in response to the neighbor's complaints, so the parents could go out and party.

[NK57]

The more that I read about Kate and Gerry, the more I think they are both equally responsible for their child's demise. I can see that smug piece of work lounging by the pool and Kates frustration boiling up to agression and spilling over into violence.

Perhaps Mrs. Fenn didn't feel comfortable making her statements while the McCanns were still in Portugal. She may have been afraid of them.

[BloodshotEye]

I agree. I too, believe that sedatives were given, in response to that complaint by Mrs. Fenn, and the response by the resort manager. If the news piece that I read, is accurate - this "crying event" took place 2 days prior to the Tapas Party.

[BethInAK]

"France Soir said DNA analysis of the fluids showed the four-year-old had ingested larged quantities of sleeping pills. "

DNA analysis wouldn't show if the child had ingested sleeping pills. Your DNA isn't altered when you take sleeping pills.
I'm quite suspect of this articles accuracy because of this stupid statement.

[Betsy]

I'm hoping they meant two analyses were made--one being a DNA to determine identity, and two being a toxicology study. Can we assume that it was traces of vomit found in the trunk?

[poco]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811
Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported tonight.

A respected French newspaper said it had seen evidence that body fluids found in the boot of her parents' hire car proved the missing girl had been sedated.
France Soir said DNA analysis of the fluids showed the four-year-old had ingested larged quantities of sleeping pills. The newspaper said it had seen "hard evidence", now in the hands of the Portuguese authorities, about Madeleine's "death".........


Guilhem Battut, an investigative journalist with the paper, said a report outlining how she died was already with Portuguese prosecutors. He said scientific analyses of the fluids found in the car boot "prove that the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in large quantities". These would have caused "an overdose", said Battut's report.

(snip)


I posted this in another thread, but I thought it was very interesting and didn't want it buried.

It is interesting, but there still seems to be a controversy over it. After looking at the link, though, for some reason the picture of the McCann's and the twins, all happy and smiling, makes me ill.

[Brefie]

It is interesting, but there still seems to be a controversy over it. After looking at the link, though, for some reason the picture of the McCann's and the twins, all happy and smiling, makes me ill.

It's the only one I have seen them smile in. No point in trying to make the twins happy and normal when you are constantly doom and gloom. Certain things you have to do for the other children.

I am sure at this point they have wrapped their heads around it to a certain extent. I am willing to bet it's been a little while since they couldn't even laugh at a funny joke.

If they are proved to be guilty of her murder, I will be calling for them to be hung, drawn and quartered, believe me. I just cannot condemn them for smiling.

[Trino]

It is interesting, but there still seems to be a controversy over it. After looking at the link, though, for some reason the picture of the McCann's and the twins, all happy and smiling, makes me ill.

While everyone reacts differently, I cannot recall a parent of a missing child that we have discussed on websleuths laughing and smiling. I know I could never react like this within weeks or even months after my child went missing.

[fifi]

a 'respected' French newspaper?????? LOL

Perhaps you guys should "sleuth" a little.......

"On the 7 June 2006, France Soir reappears after more than one and a half months of absence, under a new direction of being France's first proper tabloid newspaper, in the vein of the British newspapers, The Sun and The Daily Mirror. The headlines of the first edition of the new France Soir, which pulled to 150 000 copies, consisted of Mariah Carey, Guy Roux and of a headline of road safety." Wikipedia....

[fifi]

in the vein of the British newspapers, The Sun and The Daily Mirror.


Enough said methinks.

[concernedperson]

The newspapers may be having a hayday with the reporting but it doesn't take away from the facts of the case. The McCanns did leave their toddlers to go out and they do appear jovial in several pics. The team investigating the rental car seems credible and there is no way decomposition smell would be there unless it was. The fact of DNA and what exactly that entails is yet to be established fully but it seems that there is a smoking gun.

[Brefie]

If there were an actual smoking gun, there would be charges and arrests and extradition orders, so far there is not any of that.

Nobody is suggesting the teams are not credible. But, I am certainly suggesting the reporting or leaks are not all that credible.

[Siren]

The only thing that I am not convinced about this drug overdose theory is: IF they were giving Maddie pills/sedatives to sleep, how come the night before Mrs. Fenn heard her crying for 75 minutes and her parents had to return to the apartment because of it? If she was being "drugged" she should have no reason to get up at all!

I'd like to address your questions, I think they are valuable and the answers may surprise some people.

1) QUESTION: If they were giving Maddie pills/sedatives to sleep, how come the night before Mrs. Fenn heard her crying for 75 minutes and her parents had to return to the apartment because of it?

ANSWER: Maddie was experiencing what is called a paradoxical reaction to the pills/sedatives she was given. Some children, when given sedatives in NORMAL doses, experience the exact opposite effect. Instead of becoming calm and sleepy, they become combative and stimulated. Hence the 75 minutes of crying and allegations that Dr/Mrs McCann was physical with Maddie. Children undergoing this type of reaction typically thrash and are very difficult to comfort.

The very next night Dr/Mrs McCann increases the dose, she's a GP and NOT a pediatrician, she did what seemed logical but deadly to Madeleine. She upped the dose to toxic levels, she put her sleep alright. Deadly sleep

[Jeana (DP)]

I just heard on Nancy Grace's show that the police want Mrs. McCann BACK in Portugal right away and that police in the UK have served a warrant to seize his computer, her diary and the toys they wanted.

[BirdieBoo]

You know, I have been fairly well in the "parents did it" camp all along. However, I question this latest information on how they would know Maddie died of an overdose of a lot of sleeping pills, since there has been no body found.

I don't know why, this latest story just seems a bit implausible to me.

[colomom]

It's the only one I have seen them smile in. No point in trying to make the twins happy and normal when you are constantly doom and gloom. Certain things you have to do for the other children.

I am sure at this point they have wrapped their heads around it to a certain extent. I am willing to bet it's been a little while since they couldn't even laugh at a funny joke.

If they are proved to be guilty of her murder, I will be calling for them to be hung, drawn and quartered, believe me. I just cannot condemn them for smiling.

BREFIE!!!

Seriously...you haven't seen this????? http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,30000-1267634-1,00.html

These pics were taken May 27th!!

The Daily Mail messed up when they indicated that that pic was taken "yesterday".

[Jeana (DP)]

BREFIE!!!

Seriously...you haven't seen this????? http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,30000-1267634-1,00.html

These pics were take May 27th!!

The Daily Mall messed up when they indicated that that pic was taken "yesterday".

Wow :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[kiltubrid]

Siren, that's an excellent theory. If they administered sedatives to all of the children the night Madeleine cried for 75 minutes, that could explain why the twins slept through it all. Otherwise it would have been hard for them to sleep through, not just for the noise but also because she likely would have been thrashing about.

[SleuthMom]

Siren, good points! Food for thought. Brefie: If there were an actual smoking gun, there would be charges and arrests and extradition orders, so far there is not any of that. Maybe they are gathering REAL and BIG evidence that will put the couple in prison for a VERY long time. ;) I think the PJ is being wise and their moves are being planned, they know the whole world is watching.

[Brefie]

BREFIE!!!

Seriously...you haven't seen this????? http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,30000-1267634-1,00.html

These pics were take May 27th!!

The Daily Mall messed up when they indicated that that pic was taken "yesterday".

My bad. It doesn't bode well.

It doesn't change my overall opinion that they didn't kill Madeleine, but I have to say, it does not look good.

I cannot defend their every single move, nor would I want to. It disgusts me that they would leave those kids alone, but it will take solid proof of murder to make me think they killed her.

CRAP PARENTS OF THE STUPID KIND - Fo sh!t sho!

[Jeana (DP)]

Pathologist just said that they COULD test the DNA sample to see if there was a sedative given to the child, but NOT the AMOUNT of sedatives given. However, if that was indeed the cause of death, we'd have to assume that the amount was too much.

[Jeana (DP)]

My bad. It doesn't bode well.

It doesn't change my overall opinion that they didn't kill Madeleine, but I have to say, it does not look good.

I cannot defend their every single move, nor would I want to. It disgusts me that they would leave those kids alone, but it will take solid proof of murder to make me think they killed her.

CRAP PARENTS OF THE STUPID KIND - Fo sh!t sho!

You crack me up!!! LOL

[Brefie]

I am truly not so blind, even tho I am on the NG for right now. I cannot stress enough that I am not 'pro McCann', I just don't believe in their guilt right now. I am upfront and center condemning them for the crappy parenting decisions they made and for things that do not paint them in a positive light. But if Gerry McCann cussed in front of his kids 24/7 it does not make him a murderer. IT makes him a total scumbag, but not a killer.

I just wanted to point that out :)

I love y'all

[Brefie]

You crack me up!!! LOL

Aw, thanks, Jeana...you have given me my fair share of the giggles too.

While I cannot conform on this one..I learn waaaay much from folks here :)

[Texana]

I'd like to address your questions, I think they are valuable and the answers may surprise some people.

1) QUESTION: If they were giving Maddie pills/sedatives to sleep, how come the night before Mrs. Fenn heard her crying for 75 minutes and her parents had to return to the apartment because of it?

ANSWER: Maddie was experiencing what is called a paradoxical reaction to the pills/sedatives she was given. Some children, when given sedatives in NORMAL doses, experience the exact opposite effect. Instead of becoming calm and sleepy, they become combative and stimulated. Hence the 75 minutes of crying and allegations that Dr/Mrs McCann was physical with Maddie. Children undergoing this type of reaction typically thrash and are very difficult to comfort.

The very next night Dr/Mrs McCann increases the dose, she's a GP and NOT a pediatrician, she did what seemed logical but deadly to Madeleine. She upped the dose to toxic levels, she put her sleep alright. Deadly sleep

I agree. I had one daughter who as a child had a very weird reaction to Benadryl, we actually found her climbing the bunkbed in the middle of the night after a dose for a runny nose/cold. Now, as a teen, Benadryl knocks her out--but she has completely different hormones and metabolism working for her.

Kate was reportedly an anesthesiologist before she switched to the G/P part time job, but using a medicine without the weight charts--or perhaps with an undiagnosed allergy or heart condition, etc. in Maddie--that would spell disaster. Our current pediatrician has a phenomenal capacity to remember drugs, recent studies, dosages, and interactions--but he's uber geek in that respect. We've had others that would surreptitiously leave the room to check "the book" for the right dose for weight.

[Jeana (DP)]

I am truly not so blind, even tho I am on the NG for right now. I cannot stress enough that I am not 'pro McCann', I just don't believe in their guilt right now. I am upfront and center condemning them for the crappy parenting decisions they made and for things that do not paint them in a positive light. But if Gerry McCann cussed in front of his kids 24/7 it does not make him a murderer. IT makes him a total scumbag, but not a killer.

I just wanted to point that out :)

I love y'all

No one says that you have to believe anything. I think that its fantastic that you're here to help us look at things from the other side of that fence!!

[Texana]

Pathologist just said that they COULD test the DNA sample to see if there was a sedative given to the child, but NOT the AMOUNT of sedatives given. However, if that was indeed the cause of death, we'd have to assume that the amount was too much.

Any sedatives found would prove the McCanns were lying when they said they never gave any kind of sedatives to their children. And if they are lying about that...why? and what else?

[Jeana (DP)]

Any sedatives found would prove the McCanns were lying when they said they never gave any kind of sedatives to their children. And if they are lying about that...why? and what else?

Bingo.

[SleuthMom]

Any sedatives found would prove the McCanns were lying when they said they never gave any kind of sedatives to their children. And if they are lying about that...why? and what else?

EXACTLY!!!

[colomom]

I am truly not so blind, even tho I am on the NG for right now. I cannot stress enough that I am not 'pro McCann', I just don't believe in their guilt right now. I am upfront and center condemning them for the crappy parenting decisions they made and for things that do not paint them in a positive light. But if Gerry McCann cussed in front of his kids 24/7 it does not make him a murderer. IT makes him a total scumbag, but not a killer.

I just wanted to point that out :)

I love y'all

I, for one, have always found you to be a most considerate poster and I absolutely adore you, you know that!

You stay right where you are, no stress, you question EVERYTHING, that's perfect and exactly what I need in order to "test my theories".

Thanks Brefie....http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/bighug.gif

[Brefie]

No one says that you have to believe anything. I think that its fantastic that you're here to help us look at things from the other side of that fence!!

Thanks :blowkiss:
I will keep it up until I no longer believe it. I have no interest in saving face ever - especially in light of child killers.

I could turn out to be extremely naive...in which case I will provide the rotten fruit that you should throw at me :D

[englishleigh]

I am truly not so blind, even tho I am on the NG for right now. I cannot stress enough that I am not 'pro McCann', I just don't believe in their guilt right now. I am upfront and center condemning them for the crappy parenting decisions they made and for things that do not paint them in a positive light. But if Gerry McCann cussed in front of his kids 24/7 it does not make him a murderer. IT makes him a total scumbag, but not a killer.

I just wanted to point that out :)

I love y'all

Brefie...:blowkiss:

Sorry if I've been snotty to anyone here in recent days...I know we all want the same thing...Madeleine to be found safe, or to be found and given a proper burial and receive justice. It just all gets to me at times and I take it out on people in my responses. I'm truly sorry if I've hurt anyone.

[CaliKid]

My biggest concern with Mrs. Fenn is why did she not come out with all this info in the beginning? It was a lengthy period of tim ebefore she had told police about Maddies evening crying session. Now she claims that Kate was violent and aggressive. I am not saying that I don't believe it. I guess my question is, Why now?

Mrs. Fenn reported her concerns to the resort management who then confronted the McCanns about leaving their kids alone. It's very possible she did talk to the police who didn't respond right away. The important thing is that they now have her testimony.

[CaliKid]

The more that I read about Kate and Gerry, the more I think they are both equally responsible for their child's demise. I can see that smug piece of work lounging by the pool and Kates frustration boiling up to agression and spilling over into violence.

Perhaps Mrs. Fenn didn't feel comfortable making her statements while the McCanns were still in Portugal. She may have been afraid of them.

Geez, the more I read about Gerry McCann, the more he sounds exactly like my ex. Totally narcissistic, he had the tendency to disappear into "Steve time" when I was up to my elbows with the kids.

[Texana]

Thanks :blowkiss:
I will keep it up until I no longer believe it. I have no interest in saving face ever - especially in light of child killers.

I could turn out to be extremely naive...in which case I will provide the rotten fruit that you should throw at me :D

And I will gladly give you tomatoes to throw back if I am wrong. Please make them fresh ones, though, I have a great new salsa recipe. :rolleyes:

[Taximom]

While everyone reacts differently, I cannot recall a parent of a missing child that we have discussed on websleuths laughing and smiling. I know I could never react like this within weeks or even months after my child went missing.


I can remember being in the Jessica Lunsford chat (right before she was found) when Mark Lunsford would pop in. He would let us know what was going on with the case and we would try to keep him encouraged. While I couldn't see his face, I know he was smiling and laughing at some things we all chatted about. I'm not saying he was having a blast and rolling all over the floor laughing, but you knew he was getting a chuckle out of what we were talking about sometimes. Again, please don't take me wrong about Mark. I'm just saying I think it's possible to smile and laugh despite the horrible circumstances we see on a daily basis.

[Texana]

Mrs. Fenn went to the resort authorities and probably felt she had done the right thing. She didn't want to overreact and rat out her fellow countrymen to the police, but she wanted to give the vacationing family a heads-up kind of warning about just how "safe" the resort really was. Safer than the backstreets of Glasgow, but not a utopia.

That she went at all, is amazing. My MIL is around the same age, and she is so unwilling to "get involved" at her age--she is afraid of retaliation or the "unknown" response.

[CaliKid]

I am truly not so blind, even tho I am on the NG for right now. I cannot stress enough that I am not 'pro McCann', I just don't believe in their guilt right now. I am upfront and center condemning them for the crappy parenting decisions they made and for things that do not paint them in a positive light. But if Gerry McCann cussed in front of his kids 24/7 it does not make him a murderer. IT makes him a total scumbag, but not a killer.

I just wanted to point that out :)

I love y'all

No problem at all, Brefie. You take all the time you need to come to a conclusion you're comfortable with. But know that we will keep pushing the evidence in your direction. :angel:

[CaliKid]

I can remember being in the Jessica Lunsford chat (right before she was found) when Mark Lunsford would pop in. He would let us know what was going on with the case and we would try to keep him encouraged. While I couldn't see his face, I know he was smiling and laughing at some things we all chatted about. I'm not saying he was having a blast and rolling all over the floor laughing, but you knew he was getting a chuckle out of what we were talking about sometimes. Again, please don't take me wrong about Mark. I'm just saying I think it's possible to smile and laugh despite the horrible circumstances we see on a daily basis.

Everyone needs some "jocularity" as Father Mulcahey on MASH would call it. But other than the first 10-14 days after Madeleine's disappearance, I don't recall seeing the McCanns looking devastated unless they knew a camera was around.

[SleuthMom]

Well, Mrs. Fenn is saying now that she did not say anything, that everything that is being said is "rubbish", that she did not even know the family was there. Someone just posted a reference in another thread (forgot who it was, I will look for it).

[SleuthMom]

It was Patty, here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53216&page=12

[CaliKid]

I don't believe it. I'd bet she had no idea she was going to be the center of so much controversy, and she's trying to back out of her prior statements because she's being hounded to death by the media.

[englishleigh]

I don't believe it. I'd bet she had no idea she was going to be the center of so much controversy, and she's trying to back out of her prior statements because she's being hounded to death by the media.

I think so, too, Cali...I also wonder if she's been threatened by a lawsuit from Team McCann, too. I also think that should there be a trial, she doesn't want to have to testify.

[CaliKid]

Who knows what they'd do to keep the case out of court.

[close_enough]

i thought the father already admitted to sedating the children:confused:

[close_enough]

The report speaks of a LARGE dose of pills, unless team Mc Cann is more stupid than we think, I don't think they would give the child a large dose just to keep her quiet...not to that "large" amount. The large dose seems to be that could be the girl taking it on her own or someone deliberately killing her.

yes, that's what i'm thinking/wondering.....if GM already admitted to sedating the children, then how on earth would he have overdosed Maddie??
....these parents are worthless, imo....

[close_enough]

I would not be surprised if they were adult pill that had been mortered in to powder and given with oral syringe.

Nancy

oh my!...this made me shiver:(

[Pinkhammer]

I don't believe it. I'd bet she had no idea she was going to be the center of so much controversy, and she's trying to back out of her prior statements because she's being hounded to death by the media.

Maybe Mrs. Fenn has been warned by the Portuguese police to zip her lip since they are at such a sensitive point in the investigation.

[pedinurse]

Taximom, it has been reported that syringes were found in the apartment, leading police to believe that the sedatives were given to the children as shots, not pills.

Unless Gerry and Kate have another little "habit"...besides the alcohol.

now, i have to say that if the kids were on liquid medications, lots of little children are given syrups in syringes - syringes, orally without needles... for instance, at our house, that is what we dose our own baby (he's 14 months old) with to givie him his reflux and allergy medication with in liquid form. we did the same thing with my daughter until she was big enough to take chewable pills. some medication she still prefers liquids... but now she would rather take it from a cup rather than a syringe.

in the hospital, we give lots of kids medication with a syringe orally... does that make sense? you just draw up the syrup... lets say claritin syrup... the dose... in an oral syringe and just it in their little open mouths! its very simple. no needle is involved. much like using an oral dropper or cup, but much more exact because you can use the plunger to get an exact dose (which is hard using a cup or dropper to get to an exact ML).

[close_enough]

now, i have to say that if the kids were on liquid medications, lots of little children are given syrups in syringes - syringes, orally without needles... for instance, at our house, that is what we dose our own baby (he's 14 months old) with to givie him his reflux and allergy medication with in liquid form. we did the same thing with my daughter until she was big enough to take chewable pills. some medication she still prefers liquids... but now she would rather take it from a cup rather than a syringe.

in the hospital, we give lots of kids medication with a syringe orally... does that make sense? you just draw up the syrup... lets say claritin syrup... the dose... in an oral syringe and just it in their little open mouths! its very simple. no needle is involved. much like using an oral dropper or cup, but much more exact because you can use the plunger to get an exact dose (which is hard using a cup or dropper to get to an exact ML).

right...that's how i use to give my boys their liquid meds as toddlers also...some meds didn't come in chewable form back then....it was easy to measure with them also....actually their pediatrician turned me on to using a syringe for their liquid meds....(minus the needle obviously)

Greta's not coming on till 10 tonight....surely she'll have something about Maddie's case on...hoping so

[Siren]

I've been a peds nurse for 30+ years. We once used the same syringes for adminstering oral, IM or IV medications. Today there are special syringes for oral medications. They're available in any pharmacy and are a very accurate tool for adminstering oral medications to children. Most of the major pediatric medical centers have converted to these syringes for adminstering oral medications and use another type of syringe to adminster IM or IV medications. It's a matter of cost.

Don't confuse syringes with needles. Needles are ATTACHED to syringes. They can be packaged togther or separately.

[Taximom]

Close, so far it's coverage of the President's speech. No Greta yet. :(

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_101.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS)

[Zelda]

Mrs. Fenn reported her concerns to the resort management who then confronted the McCanns about leaving their kids alone. It's very possible she did talk to the police who didn't respond right away. The important thing is that they now have her testimony.

Does anyone have a link to Mrs. Fenn's testimony?
For some reason I missed it. It sounds important.

[CaliKid]

Does anyone have a link to Mrs. Fenn's testimony?
For some reason I missed it. It sounds important.

http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/madeleine-neighbor-with-vital-information-never-questioned-by-police/

WIDOW WITH VITAL CLUES WAS NEVER QUESTIONED

By David Pilditch

A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.

Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three “bombshell” clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.

In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.

It was one of a series of similar crimes reported to Portuguese police.

In a second development Mrs Fenn’s niece reported seeing a man who matched the description of a suspect peering into the McCanns holiday apartment around the time Madeleine went missing.

SEE LINK FOR ENTIRE ARTICLE.

EDITED BY ADMIN DUE TO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT AND TOS VIOLATIONS

[Brefie]

Off Topic: Hey all. Thanks for your kind words earlier. Sorry I disappeared so suddenly, I ate some sushi and shouldn't have :(

[angarella]

BREFIE!!!

Seriously...you haven't seen this????? http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,30000-1267634-1,00.html

These pics were taken May 27th!!

The Daily Mail messed up when they indicated that that pic was taken "yesterday".

Those pictures make me incredibly sad. I bet Maddie would have had a great time with her parents at the park too. :(

[Texana]

Off Topic: Hey all. Thanks for your kind words earlier. Sorry I disappeared so suddenly, I ate some sushi and shouldn't have :(

hope you feel better!

[Texana]

Those pictures make me incredibly sad. I bet Maddie would have had a great time with her parents at the park too. :(

That picture bothers the heck out of me. Even if I say, well, they are trying to give the twins some attention, they are obviously posing for photographs from the media.

Why would you want a photo of your family laughing and looking so happy, wouldn't that play right into an abductor's hands? "see, your family doesn't need you anymore,they are happy so you need to stop crying for them, Maddie."

[angarella]

That picture bothers the heck out of me. Even if I say, well, they are trying to give the twins some attention, they are obviously posing for photographs from the media.

Why would you want a photo of your family laughing and looking so happy, wouldn't that play right into an abductor's hands? "see, your family doesn't need you anymore,they are happy so you need to stop crying for them, Maddie."

Exactly! I know it was a photo op, but it just seems to scream: We have exactly the happy family that we want now......:confused:

[JinxieJada]

is it possible in all of the "new" evidence uncovered, they found ingested but undissolved pills of some sort? whether it be mom/dad gave one too many...or mom gave a dose, dad didn't know it and gave another one (or vice versa) perhaps that's where the 'I swallowed" came in... they were vomited up..but missed while someone was cleaning up?

A bit far fetched i know..but I remember taking one too many and threw up intact pills that were still recognizable.

[aussie_mum]

Once I vomited a panadol thru my nose. I had taken it a while before, can't recall how long tho. I was a Panadol Rapid, not sure if you have them in the us, but they are a bit larger than usual tab and have a smooth plasticy coating..... what came out my nose was the coating mostly with some of the actual tab still in it... not much but enough to make my nose burn alot.

[aussie_mum]

I forgot to add this lol :sick:

[aussie_mum]

errrr my point was.... that if as someone suggested before that they attemted to resuscitate Maddie and she puked possibly the coating of a ingested tablet may have come up and been left behind or stuck in the hair that was found in the boot. DNA could also be recovered from an item like this which also would include drugs like one of the articles stated.
Does it make sense this time?? lol my mind is always all over the place!

[JinxieJada]

errrr my point was.... that if as someone suggested before that they attemted to resuscitate Maddie and she puked possibly the coating of a ingested tablet may have come up and been left behind or stuck in the hair that was found in the boot. DNA could also be recovered from an item like this which also would include drugs like one of the articles stated.
Does it make sense this time?? lol my mind is always all over the place!


LOL...I understood!!! :woohoo:

and that's exactly what i was talking about....or even, she vomited, they wrapped her up in whatever it was she vomited in...and when she was moved...one fell away from her, off of her etc. this of course, goes w/ the assumption of mine that they are involved, via directly or indirectly, I truly feel they know where their child is.

BTW how the hell many people "give up". One minute they know she is being loved and taken care of..and the next...they've dealt w/ their grief but have to move on for the sake of their twins? ALSO..does anyone else notice in the family pic that is plastered everywhere...Poor MM is off to the side..while they are enveloping the twins..Maybe the twins ages...BUT...noone has their arms around or even near her in the pic.

[aussie_mum]

lol phew! opps few typos etc in there as well! But what you say makes sense. I know this is all suppusition (I know its spelt wrong, sorry guys).... but we are just working off the small snippets of info avail.

[nanandjim]

When the parents are either drunk or hungover every single day on holiday, it's easy to see how they could get mixed up dosing their kids with sedatives. I think the sedatives were administered by one of the parents, and they gave poor little Maddie double or triple so Mrs. Fenn wouldn't report her crying, while they caroused with their swinger friends and 14 bottles of wine.
IMO, the parents intentionally gave Maddy an extra dose, perhaps, when she didn't seem to be calming down from the regular dose. It probably hit the girl like a lead balloon and slowed down her heart or caused her to vomit in her sleep and choke on her vomit.

I don't understand why they didn't leave their children at home under a nanny's or babysitter's care. It just doesn't make sense to me.

This is no accident. The child did not get hold of the pills herself. That's been my opinion for quite some time.

[Rino]

I could turn out to be extremely naive...in which case I will provide the rotten fruit that you should throw at me :D
You could be right and still be naive, can we still throw the fruit??:crazy:

[christine2448]

If this was purely accidental, I can see where they would want to cover it up being doctors and all.


Why would they want to cover it up if it was purely accidental? If it was an accident, it was an accident.

But what was an accident??

It's not an accident to drug your children so you can go out and party.

If she overdosed herself, why cover that up, they did nothing wrong.




Even if Madeleine took the pills on her own, I'm still holding the parents culpable.


Stupid, stupid people. Geez, it makes me fume to think that there were so many resources available to them to make sure their children were looked after. But NO, they think it's just peachy to leave their kids alone in a strange country.

If they'd taken the advice of the resort and obtained childcare for their BABIES, Madeleine would be alive today. I don't care how you slice and dice it, the McCanns caused their daughter's death. Pure and simple.


I agree w/this 100%!!!!! The only thing I would change if I had made this post is I would say "the McCanns contributed to their daughter's death. Pure and Simple" I wish we knew all the evidence. Was it accidental, did someone murder her, has she been abducted...we still don't know. Whatever the outcome, the parents are to blame and should be charged!


There have been varying translations (from English to Portuguese back to English) of what Mrs. Fenn heard Madeleine saying on the night of May 1. Originally, it was Daddy, Daddy, I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Then Daddy, Daddy, I eat, I eat. The most recent version was Daddy, Daddy, I swallow, I swallow. Did she swallow pills?

I think this is all news phoney bologna.....some reports say one thing, some say this lady said she never said anything "rubbish", she said.

I want to see the court docs, the warrants, the invterviews, the diary. Where is the child? :banghead:



But, I am certainly suggesting the reporting or leaks are not all that credible.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

And this reporting has some of us, including me at times, feeling like we are on a flippin' roller coaster ride!


Mrs. Fenn reported her concerns to the resort management who then confronted the McCanns about leaving their kids alone. It's very possible she did talk to the police who didn't respond right away. The important thing is that they now have her testimony.

Who has what testimony? I have heard conflicting reports some say she DID say all of the things we have been speaking of then otheres say she is denying saying anything, quoting her saying "rubbish" to the claims. "She didn't even know they were there".

[Rino]

yes, that's what i'm thinking/wondering.....if GM already admitted to sedating the children, then how on earth would he have overdosed Maddie??
....these parents are worthless, imo....
They were drinking and partying. I don't even know how many times I have done dumb or foolish things in that state. If the intent was to keep them quiet to continue the evening I can see an idiot who would sedate them in the first place making the error.

[christine2448]

No one says that you have to believe anything. I think that its fantastic that you're here to help us look at things from the other side of that fence!!

I love what you said here to Brefie Jeana! :woohoo: :woohoo: What fun would this be if we all agreed...

on a serious note, a GOOD investigator always come in and goes back out from EVERY direction. You can form an opinion, but you close no doors. I think Brefie is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[christine2448]

No problem at all, Brefie. You take all the time you need to come to a conclusion you're comfortable with. But know that we will keep pushing the evidence in your direction. :angel:

Could you push just one piece my way??? Pullleeeeeze. And I am on your side! I haven't seen one bit of evidence yet, except the fact that the parents left their children alone to party/socialize. I haven't seen one shread of evidence outside of that yet. Got some?? Please share :D

[hcc2007]

They were drinking and partying. I don't even know how many times I have done dumb or foolish things in that state...

-- Me too! The first time I had a glass of wine after my daughter's birth (she was about 3 months old), I brought her home, placed her on a bed and left the room. Next thing I knew, she'd fallen onto the floor. I felt HORRIBLE! And I didn't drink again for several years. Parents of young children should not drink, as you never know when you'll need to have your senses sharp.

-- BTW anyone who's tried to have a career and raise young children will tell you, without doubt, THEY SEDATED THEM. It's not that we've all done it, but plenty of us have wanted to. I recall occasionally wishing my daughter would get a stuffy nose so I could justify the use of benadryl. I never cheated, but instead found other solutions.

When you're also working for a living, you can be seriously exhausted and at your wits' end when the child won't go to sleep.

-- I settled on two solutions: 1) driving around in the car (that always put her out); or 2) bringing her to bed with us (when it was too late for a drive).

-- In the old days (the 1950s) mothers just let us cry ourselves to sleep. That was cold and cruel if you ask me, but it was a different time.

None of these solutions is perfect but they're all better than drugs.

JMO

[BethInAK]

I forgot to add this lol :sick:

LOL!! I was thinking "OUCH" as I read your last post.

[Brefie]

hope you feel better!

I do, much better..thanks!

You could be right and still be naive, can we still throw the fruit??:crazy:

Um.....that's a big fat NO, Rino....but thanks for asking! :D

Christine.....thanks, chicky, I think you are pretty fab, too :)

[ThoughtFox]

-- Me too! The first time I had a glass of wine after my daughter's birth (she was about 3 months old), I brought her home, placed her on a bed and left the room. Next thing I knew, she'd fallen onto the floor. I felt HORRIBLE! And I didn't drink again for several years. Parents of young children should not drink, as you never know when you'll need to have your senses sharp.

-- BTW anyone who's tried to have a career and raise young children will tell you, without doubt, THEY SEDATED THEM. It's not that we've all done it, but plenty of us have wanted to. I recall occasionally wishing my daughter would get a stuffy nose so I could justify the use of benadryl. I never cheated, but instead found other solutions.

I have unfortunately heard lots of parents making jokes about dosing their kids with Benadryl - or whatever prescription meds they've got around. I've never understood that or thought it was funny.

Everyone is sometimes too tired to deal with their kids, and to that I can only say, welcome to parenthood and learn to stay awake longer.

Basically, when I've been to resort type places in the U.S., the kids are included at mealtime. Maybe I'm the one who is naive, but who ever said that parents are "entitled" to all that free time during a family vacation, especially if there are no relatives or babysitters there to watch the kids? Those children were just babies, and they shouldn't have been left alone. It's a wonder something didn't happen to all three of them.

Why bother to have kids at all if someone is a socialite who just wants to sedate them so they'll pass out? It's just wrong. It's unhealthy, but it's also unnatural. It's compartmentalizing your children to the point of craziness.

[Squishified]

Wasn't there a day care operator who went on trial a couple of years ago for overdosing a baby with Benadryl or something similar?
I watched it on Court TV. I believe she was found guilty (but I can't remember on what charges).

[kgeaux]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811
Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported tonight.

A respected French newspaper said it had seen evidence that body fluids found in the boot of her parents' hire car proved the missing girl had been sedated.
France Soir said DNA analysis of the fluids showed the four-year-old had ingested larged quantities of sleeping pills. The newspaper said it had seen "hard evidence", now in the hands of the Portuguese authorities, about Madeleine's "death".........


Guilhem Battut, an investigative journalist with the paper, said a report outlining how she died was already with Portuguese prosecutors. He said scientific analyses of the fluids found in the car boot "prove that the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in large quantities". These would have caused "an overdose", said Battut's report.

(snip)


I posted this in another thread, but I thought it was very interesting and didn't want it buried.

I'm just popping in. I've been following the story but not 'really' closely.

I'm really curious about this, though.

IF Portugese authorities are in possesion of Madeline's bodily fluids, which prove she was sedated, why do you think no one has been arrested yet? I mean that would be strong evidence to bring to the judge, right?

[spacecowboy]

-

-- I settled on two solutions: 1) driving around in the car (that always put her out); or 2) bringing her to bed with us (when it was too late for a drive).

-- In the old days (the 1950s) mothers just let us cry ourselves to sleep. That was cold and cruel if you ask me, but it was a different time.




Actually science now backs up the cruelness of crying it out. Lots of research has been done and they now know the chemicals released when babies are stressed affect the way the brain develops and can cause problems for the rest of their life (mental health and stress related conditions). Thing is it's not obvious to parents as the consequences are not immediate.

So I cosleep with my babies, in countries where most people have their babies in bed they have never heard of SIDS. The rate is so low there.
I know alot of parents who work and love to cosleep to get in the cuddles they missed in the day and baby can catch up on some breastfeeds.

[bulletgirl2002]

Wasn't there a day care operator who went on trial a couple of years ago for overdosing a baby with Benadryl or something similar?
I watched it on Court TV. I believe she was found guilty (but I can't remember on what charges).
Oh yes. That was a co-worker of mine whose baby boy was killed by the day care operator with Benedryl. She was found guilty and has to wear an ankle bracelet for 5 years. No jail time though. She can't ever have a day care again. This was a licensed day care in an individual's home. They are in litigation with the makers of benedryl for not putting a warning on the label and their goal is to have them put a warning on the label about giving it to babies. Their livers cannot process it like adults and I can't remember how many babies she told me are killed each year (a few) by this practice. The woman didn't even come to the baby's funeral or tell her she was sorry or anything.

[Sundayrain]

Oh yes. That was a co-worker of mine whose baby boy was killed by the day care operator with Benedryl. She was found guilty and has to wear an ankle bracelet for 5 years. No jail time though. She can't ever have a day care again. This was a licensed day care in an individual's home. They are in litigation with the makers of benedryl for not putting a warning on the label and their goal is to have them put a warning on the label about giving it to babies. Their livers cannot process it like adults and I can't remember how many babies she told me are killed each year (a few) by this practice. The woman didn't even come to the baby's funeral or tell her she was sorry or anything.
I'm not defending this lady in anyway. But, I know from two car accidents in the family( no one was killed) that its the Lawyer who tells the person
" not to say sorry" and " not to have contact".......For the case that comes about apparently, it is admitting pure guilt, and thus ........your told not to do those things, even if you personally want to.

[pedinurse]

Actually science now backs up the cruelness of crying it out. Lots of research has been done and they now know the chemicals released when babies are stressed affect the way the brain develops and can cause problems for the rest of their life (mental health and stress related conditions). Thing is it's not obvious to parents as the consequences are not immediate.

So I cosleep with my babies, in countries where most people have their babies in bed they have never heard of SIDS. The rate is so low there.
I know alot of parents who work and love to cosleep to get in the cuddles they missed in the day and baby can catch up on some breastfeeds.

Yes, but those countries, you hear of the deaths where the mothers have laid on the babies and accidentally smothered them. It happens in grass huts in africa, sadly. and they have no other option... they don't have cribs! Remember the story in the bible where the King threatened to split the baby in half between the two women to find out who the real mother was? That was due to a cosleeping death!
Sorry, that's my soapbox. Yes, people love to cosleep. I just was always too afraid too. It's just not recommended. I had a crib available to me, a bassinette at the bedside. I nursed my baby, and I had a great hubby who didn't even make me get out of the bed at night... he would bring baby to me. I was able to be lazy! So, I didn't have to cosleep for ease of feeding. Some people do... it makes it a lot easier on them when they need to get some much needed rest from caring for a newborn. But it is just really risky. Pillow top mattresses are just too risky, along with the fact that headboards allow for a gap where children could mechanically get strangled between the headboard and mattress or footboard and mattress. Or they could fall off the bed to the floor, causing trauma. The fluffy bedding on adult beds can cause SIDS and smoothering (we think that it is possible the extra bedding gets near the face - but we never know with SIDS - you just never know. We think just some forget to start breathing again). Every year you hear about parents who roll over and lay on the baby (especially newborns) because they are asleep - or they roll over, and if they aren't laying on top of the baby, they are blocking the baby's airway or covering the baby so they aren't able to breath. That is a HUGE risk. New parents are SO very very tired. I feel badly for them. Sometimes, they just don't wake up. I know that I slept walked during the first two months after both my kids were born. If parent are overtired, drinking, or taking sleeping pills... or taking any sort sedatives (benadryl?) they should absolutely NOT cosleep!
:twocents:
There's no stepping off my soapbox smiley face.. so I will shut my yapper now. :-)

[pedinurse]

I've been a peds nurse for 30+ years. We once used the same syringes for adminstering oral, IM or IV medications. Today there are special syringes for oral medications. They're available in any pharmacy and are a very accurate tool for adminstering oral medications to children. Most of the major pediatric medical centers have converted to these syringes for adminstering oral medications and use another type of syringe to adminster IM or IV medications. It's a matter of cost.

Don't confuse syringes with needles. Needles are ATTACHED to syringes. They can be packaged togther or separately.


Exactly. That was what I was trying to clarify with my posting. I was seeing syringe all over the original post, and I was seeing that syringe was being linked to an IM or IV injection - when the syringe (needleless) could have been used to administer liquid medications orally to small children. The twins and Maddie were small enough that it would be completely appropriate to give them oral meds with an oral syringe, no needles involved! That would actually be my PREFERRED way to give them liquid oral medications! I personally hate droppers and cups. Give me a syringe to measure out ML's any day!
I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they were getting shot up with anything quite yet... it is entirely possible that the McCann's were giving the kids oral sedatives, if they were doing anything sinister medication wise. Or you know, many times twins are premature - what if this set was? Could they have been giving them their regular medication with the oral syringes? Could they, or Maddie, have had any persistent healthcare problems that might have required any daily medication? What about any "as needed" medications such as Claritin that they might have wanted to give the kids on vacation for allergies with all the tropical plants? Anyway... those are just some thoughts. Those things might require the need for oral liquid medications, and the need for oral syringes. There might be good reasons to have oral syringes in the room. I know I took some with me on my vacation with the kiddos!

[philamena]

I have unfortunately heard lots of parents making jokes about dosing their kids with Benadryl - or whatever prescription meds they've got around. I've never understood that or thought it was funny.

Everyone is sometimes too tired to deal with their kids, and to that I can only say, welcome to parenthood and learn to stay awake longer.

Basically, when I've been to resort type places in the U.S., the kids are included at mealtime. Maybe I'm the one who is naive, but who ever said that parents are "entitled" to all that free time during a family vacation, especially if there are no relatives or babysitters there to watch the kids? Those children were just babies, and they shouldn't have been left alone. It's a wonder something didn't happen to all three of them.

Why bother to have kids at all if someone is a socialite who just wants to sedate them so they'll pass out? It's just wrong. It's unhealthy, but it's also unnatural. It's compartmentalizing your children to the point of craziness.

You said it TFox!:clap::clap:

[BethInAK]

Oh yes. That was a co-worker of mine whose baby boy was killed by the day care operator with Benedryl. She was found guilty and has to wear an ankle bracelet for 5 years. No jail time though. She can't ever have a day care again. This was a licensed day care in an individual's home. They are in litigation with the makers of benedryl for not putting a warning on the label and their goal is to have them put a warning on the label about giving it to babies. Their livers cannot process it like adults and I can't remember how many babies she told me are killed each year (a few) by this practice. The woman didn't even come to the baby's funeral or tell her she was sorry or anything.


OTC benadryl is not not recommended by the manufacturer until age SIX. So they might have won that lawsuit.

[pedinurse]

You said it TFox!:clap::clap:
You know, we were at a well known large family resort this summer. At times, there were parents who probably went to the adults only resturant, ate dinner on the beach, or maybe just wanted some alone time at dinner time. You would see the nannies with children at dinner time with kids at the resturants. They would feed them at the resturants at the buffet! And the kids would be having a blast!
At those times (when the parents wanted alone time, or if they were out on an excursion), you could hire the nanny for even VERY late nights! You'd see the nanny with children at dinner time at the resturants, taking the kids (you could tell it was a one on one child or a sibling group to the resturants), and they were having the GREATEST times with those nannies! At the resort we were at, the childcare workers were really awesome. I really liked the nannies at the resort we were at... they were the best. My 14 month old who doesn't go to daycare at all at home would just wave at those ladies (who are different from him ethnically and speak with an accent - I really thought he would be scared, and they commented at how happy a baby he was and how well he adjusted even though he didn't even go to daycare!) and he would just giggle and laugh! They were really good with the kids. Of course, this was not at the resort Maddie was at...

But you know, the last two resorts we have stayed at were heavily populated by people from England and europe. For instance, the week we stayed at the resort we stayed at this past summer, we were one of only a handful of American families there (even though this resort is heavily marketed in the US). I think it was due to the week of booking and the fact that there was a large plane of families that came in together. Most of the families on the resort were there from Britian. It was an extremely long flight for them to get there, and they all stay for two weeks! They have small children too... I don't know how they do it - I couldn't handle my kids on such a long flight! They are heros! They are such nice and polite people too. I enjoy vacationing with them. I'll tell you, my hubby and I live near two resort or vacation towns that we run to for quick get aways... the people can be rude. I've never had that experience on these vacations.
Anyway, I have to say it was nice because at the resort we stayed at in December (not this summer), we were one of VERY few english speaking families, so we were kind of in culture shock during that vacation. The only people who did actually speak english were from Britian. :) So everytime I stay on a resort, I get use to British accents (they are so nice!). The other people who spoke english were second english speakers - but they were so nice... they always said "we enjoy getting to practice our english!" They were all from France and Spain and other parts of Europe.

And you know what at BOTH resorts... none of them left their kids in their rooms... that I know of. I remember that some of them even brought their kids to the late night coffee bars and let them sit in their laps while they sat around and talked! It was just normal "family" time! I think we all did! The bars, alcohol and coffee serving type areas ect were just common areas... not "bars" or rowdy type or dancing type areas (even though they did have those separate)... and people would just take their strollers there after dinner, get a table, and sit there and talk in circles. They included their kids in the after dinner time, and usually took the kids with them to dinner. I just don't know why you wouldn't take your kids with you!

So, in summary... I think the McCann's were just crazy - go - nuts for leaving their kids in the room and sedating them if that is what they did so they could just go to dinner. How selfish. *sigh* No one else does it. It isn't a "socially acceptable" thing. I don't see parents darting off and doing that other places... have never seen it. How weird.

[ThoughtFox]

Exactly. That was what I was trying to clarify with my posting. I was seeing syringe all over the original post, and I was seeing that syringe was being linked to an IM or IV injection - when the syringe (needleless) could have been used to administer liquid medications orally to small children. The twins and Maddie were small enough that it would be completely appropriate to give them oral meds with an oral syringe, no needles involved! That would actually be my PREFERRED way to give them liquid oral medications! I personally hate droppers and cups. Give me a syringe to measure out ML's any day!
The press are the ones saying the word "syringe" over and over, so people are naturally going to jump to a bad conclusion. I had to think for a minute about what you were saying, because I haven't used one of those plastic medicine dropper thingys since my youngest was 2 years old ten years ago. So I can understand why folks are confused if they aren't in the health care profession.

Yes those syringes are convenient and work well with children, but that's not the point - the point is that Maddie is gone and there were syringes in the drawer by the bed, and they expected the children to always sleep through dinner, which is when Maddie disappeared. It's all too coincidental - and these parents were doctors, so of course they would know the easiest way to get kids to swallow medicine, but that doesn't make it right.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they were getting shot up with anything quite yet... it is entirely possible that the McCann's were giving the kids oral sedatives, if they were doing anything sinister medication wise. Or you know, many times twins are premature - what if this set was? Could they have been giving them their regular medication with the oral syringes? Could they, or Maddie, have had any persistent healthcare problems that might have required any daily medication?
I've never read or heard anything like that. If it was true, why wouldn't the parents be vehemently explaining all that to the public? I would! Or why not leak it to the press from one of their outspoken relatives? I think that would have come out by now.

What about any "as needed" medications such as Claritin that they might have wanted to give the kids on vacation for allergies with all the tropical plants? Anyway... those are just some thoughts. Those things might require the need for oral liquid medications, and the need for oral syringes. There might be good reasons to have oral syringes in the room. I know I took some with me on my vacation with the kiddos!
Is Claritin for toddlers? That stuff knocks me out cold.

As I said, there is nothing evil in them having the syringes around - why not? Maybe they were giving them the pain killer for sunburn, as someone said, and that's a reasonable thing. And in any other circumstance, those syringes wouldn't be significant, but this is a crime scene, and to me that makes alot of difference.

[pedinurse]

The press are the ones saying the word "syringe" over and over, so people are naturally going to jump to a bad conclusion. I had to think for a minute about what you were saying, because I haven't used one of those plastic medicine dropper thingys since my youngest was 2 years old ten years ago. So I can understand why folks are confused if they aren't in the health care profession.

Yes those syringes are convenient and work well with children, but that's not the point - the point is that Maddie is gone and there were syringes in the drawer by the bed, and they expected the children to always sleep through dinner, which is when Maddie disappeared. It's all too coincidental - and these parents were doctors, so of course they would know the easiest way to get kids to swallow medicine, but that doesn't make it right.


I've never read or heard anything like that. If it was true, why wouldn't the parents be vehemently explaining all that to the public? I would! Or why not leak it to the press from one of their outspoken relatives? I think that would have come out by now.


Is Claritin for toddlers? That stuff knocks me out cold.

As I said, there is nothing evil in them having the syringes around - why not? Maybe they were giving them the pain killer for sunburn, as someone said, and that's a reasonable thing. And in any other circumstance, those syringes wouldn't be significant, but this is a crime scene, and to me that makes alot of difference.

Oh yeah, I can totally see how it would be easy to jump to syringe and injection... there is a huge link there. I mean, for even an adult, you don't usually give an adult an oral medication with a syringe, right? But kids are different... that's the only thing. If you found syringes at the scene of an adult crime scene, I'd immediately think DRUGS! But kids... you know... there's always the alternatives... just wanted to jump up and say something. But it would be a logical next step for most people to think syringes then injection in most cases. :-)

Yeah... some kids end up on stuff like Claritin as toddlers... but a doctor or provider has to OK it if any kid is to take anything! So, yeah, some toddlers end up on Claritin. My son, the reactive airway / allergy kid, was on Clartin at the age of 6 months (that's early), then ended up on Zyrtec (Godsend!)... he had a nasty snotty nose (still does if he doesn't take it...). But they make you try stuff like Claritin syrup first. It's nasty tasting stuff. But it saved him from getting ear tubes (runny noses lead to ear infections) so if he has to take a script so he doesn't have to have surgery... I'm all about it!

[philamena]

You know, we were at a well known large family resort this summer. At times, there were parents who probably went to the adults only resturant, ate dinner on the beach, or maybe just wanted some alone time at dinner time. You would see the nannies with children at dinner time with kids at the resturants. They would feed them at the resturants at the buffet! And the kids would be having a blast!
At those times (when the parents wanted alone time, or if they were out on an excursion), you could hire the nanny for even VERY late nights! You'd see the nanny with children at dinner time at the resturants, taking the kids (you could tell it was a one on one child or a sibling group to the resturants), and they were having the GREATEST times with those nannies! At the resort we were at, the childcare workers were really awesome. I really liked the nannies at the resort we were at... they were the best. My 14 month old who doesn't go to daycare at all at home would just wave at those ladies (who are different from him ethnically and speak with an accent - I really thought he would be scared, and they commented at how happy a baby he was and how well he adjusted even though he didn't even go to daycare!) and he would just giggle and laugh! They were really good with the kids. Of course, this was not at the resort Maddie was at...

But you know, the last two resorts we have stayed at were heavily populated by people from England and europe. For instance, the week we stayed at the resort we stayed at this past summer, we were one of only a handful of American families there (even though this resort is heavily marketed in the US). I think it was due to the week of booking and the fact that there was a large plane of families that came in together. Most of the families on the resort were there from Britian. It was an extremely long flight for them to get there, and they all stay for two weeks! They have small children too... I don't know how they do it - I couldn't handle my kids on such a long flight! They are heros! They are such nice and polite people too. I enjoy vacationing with them. I'll tell you, my hubby and I live near two resort or vacation towns that we run to for quick get aways... the people can be rude. I've never had that experience on these vacations.
Anyway, I have to say it was nice because at the resort we stayed at in December (not this summer), we were one of VERY few english speaking families, so we were kind of in culture shock during that vacation. The only people who did actually speak english were from Britian. :) So everytime I stay on a resort, I get use to British accents (they are so nice!). The other people who spoke english were second english speakers - but they were so nice... they always said "we enjoy getting to practice our english!" They were all from France and Spain and other parts of Europe.

And you know what at BOTH resorts... none of them left their kids in their rooms... that I know of. I remember that some of them even brought their kids to the late night coffee bars and let them sit in their laps while they sat around and talked! It was just normal "family" time! I think we all did! The bars, alcohol and coffee serving type areas ect were just common areas... not "bars" or rowdy type or dancing type areas (even though they did have those separate)... and people would just take their strollers there after dinner, get a table, and sit there and talk in circles. They included their kids in the after dinner time, and usually took the kids with them to dinner. I just don't know why you wouldn't take your kids with you!

So, in summary... I think the McCann's were just crazy - go - nuts for leaving their kids in the room and sedating them if that is what they did so they could just go to dinner. How selfish. *sigh* No one else does it. It isn't a "socially acceptable" thing. I don't see parents darting off and doing that other places... have never seen it. How weird.


pedinurse,
I sure wish the McCann's and their vacationing friends could have read your post before they went on holiday! How great that you vacationed at a spot that offered such great services. More importantly isn't it wonderful that patrons took advantage of the service?

I am furious with the McCann's leaving their precious children alone. If they'd used their educated brains and hired a nanny, all 3 of their children would be safe and sound....and at home. :(

[narlacat]

BREFIE!!!

Seriously...you haven't seen this????? http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,30000-1267634-1,00.html

These pics were taken May 27th!!

The Daily Mail messed up when they indicated that that pic was taken "yesterday".

I see two people trying to fake it for their kids.

Brefie- it wouldn't matter if they were crying at the park with the kids, posters here have convicted them on how they come across in the press- they are seeing what they want to see- and what they want to see is someone pay for the disappearance of this little girl when there is nothing concrete against these two people as I type, some french paper saying she over dosed and some leaks about blood in the trunk of the car..

[CaliKid]

Why would they have to fake it? The McCanns had such a steady stream of family members who traveled back and forth to Portugal to help them (which probably included minding the kids) that there was hardly a day when a relative wasn't with them. The McCanns also took the twins to the resort creche almost every day after Madeleine disappeared. Apparently, they continued to do the same thing as they had before the night of May 3- pass off care of their children to someone else so they didn't have to deal with it. It's just too bad they didn't give Madeleine the same courtesy.

[narlacat]

Why would they have to fake it? The McCanns had such a steady stream of family members who traveled back and forth to Portugal to help them (which probably included minding the kids) that there was hardly a day when a relative wasn't with them. The McCanns also took the twins to the resort creche almost every day after Madeleine disappeared. Apparently, they continued to do the same thing as they had before the night of May 3- pass off care of their children to someone else so they didn't have to deal with it. It's just too bad they didn't give Madeleine the same courtesy.

Looking at it from a innocent until proven guilty angle K & G are innocent, their little girl is missing, the press is hounding them relentlessly and the worlds wants to blame someone for the death of an innocent- namely them.
They would hardly be in the mood for playing with their children in the park, I see them faking smiles and doing what it takes to get through.

[Squishified]

Oh yes. That was a co-worker of mine whose baby boy was killed by the day care operator with Benedryl. She was found guilty and has to wear an ankle bracelet for 5 years. No jail time though. She can't ever have a day care again. This was a licensed day care in an individual's home. They are in litigation with the makers of benedryl for not putting a warning on the label and their goal is to have them put a warning on the label about giving it to babies. Their livers cannot process it like adults and I can't remember how many babies she told me are killed each year (a few) by this practice. The woman didn't even come to the baby's funeral or tell her she was sorry or anything.
Thanks bulletgirl, that was the trial I remember. So sorry for your co-worker. Do you happen to know what the woman was convicted of ie. manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc.

[SleuthMom]

narlacat, what is your opinion about the Mc Canns leaving their three kids (3 and under) alone (several times) when they went to dine and play trivia with their friends? Is that the Media too?

[bulletgirl2002]

Thanks bulletgirl, that was the trial I remember. So sorry for your co-worker. Do you happen to know what the woman was convicted of ie. manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc.

I didn't think to ask. She just told me about the ankle braclet and not being able to have another day care. I would think negligent homicide though.

[LinasK]

Basically, when I've been to resort type places in the U.S., the kids are included at mealtime. Maybe I'm the one who is naive, but who ever said that parents are "entitled" to all that free time during a family vacation, especially if there are no relatives or babysitters there to watch the kids? Those children were just babies, and they shouldn't have been left alone. It's a wonder something didn't happen to all three of them.

Why bother to have kids at all if someone is a socialite who just wants to sedate them so they'll pass out? It's just wrong. It's unhealthy, but it's also unnatural. It's compartmentalizing your children to the point of craziness.

I totally agree!:clap: :clap: :clap:

[LinasK]

And you know what at BOTH resorts... none of them left their kids in their rooms... that I know of. I remember that some of them even brought their kids to the late night coffee bars and let them sit in their laps while they sat around and talked! It was just normal "family" time! I think we all did! The bars, alcohol and coffee serving type areas ect were just common areas... not "bars" or rowdy type or dancing type areas (even though they did have those separate)... and people would just take their strollers there after dinner, get a table, and sit there and talk in circles. They included their kids in the after dinner time, and usually took the kids with them to dinner. I just don't know why you wouldn't take your kids with you!

So, in summary... I think the McCann's were just crazy - go - nuts for leaving their kids in the room and sedating them if that is what they did so they could just go to dinner. How selfish. *sigh* No one else does it. It isn't a "socially acceptable" thing. I don't see parents darting off and doing that other places... have never seen it. How weird.

Agreed!:clap:

[narlacat]

narlacat, what is your opinion about the Mc Canns leaving their three kids (3 and under) alone (several times) when they went to dine and play trivia with their friends? Is that the Media too?



They might not be the best of parents for leaving their kids by themselves, in fact, they are crap parents for doing that- but at this stage the Mc's have not been proven to have killed their daughter, just been bad parents.

[SleuthMom]

They might not be the best of parents for leaving their kids by themselves, in fact, they are crap parents for doing that- but at this stage the Mc's have not been proven to have killed their daughter, just been bad parents. You are very right, hopefully they will be charged AT LEAST for negligence that has been proven.

[Brefie]

You are very right, hopefully they will be charged AT LEAST for negligence that has been proven.

They absolutely should be charged with neglect. NO QUESTION.

[twinkiesmom]

I didn't think to ask. She just told me about the ankle braclet and not being able to have another day care. I would think negligent homicide though.


Was this the Sabine Bieber case in Montana? I thought she got signficant jail time? CourtTV lists a 5-year sentence.

http://www.courttv.com/trials/bieber/102805_sentencing_ctv.html

I found a bunch of other cases from around the country:

http://search.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030823/NEWS/308230340&SearchID=73218466517847

[eleven]

-- BTW anyone who's tried to have a career and raise young children will tell you, without doubt, THEY SEDATED THEM.[/B] It's not that we've all done it, but plenty of us have wanted to. I recall occasionally wishing my daughter would get a stuffy nose so I could justify the use of benadryl. I never cheated, but instead found other solutions.

When you're also working for a living, you can be seriously exhausted and at your wits' end when the child won't go to sleep.


Uhhh....no. I have 3 healthy kids, a successful career and I have NEVER "sedated" them. NOT EVEN ONCE, and that is without a doubt. And, IMO, anyone who sedates their children for the sole purpose of making child-rearing easier, shouldn't be a parent in the first place. I say give they should give the kids up to people who have the mind faculties to raise them well, because they aren't being raised well if Mommy and/or Daddy resort to drugging them up because they can't hang!

[STEADFAST]

I'm a fence-sitter in this case, but I do think the McCanns sedated those children. Just picture a building 100 yards from where you are at the moment and imagine there are three young toddlers, for whom you are responsible, inside there asleep. How could you not imagine them waking up and sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets, etc, etc, unless you had drugged them? Or tied them up, I guess.

Seriously criminally negligent no matter what way you look at it.

[Texana]

I'm a fence-sitter in this case, but I do think the McCanns sedated those children. Just picture a building 100 yards from where you are at the moment and imagine there are three young toddlers, for whom you are responsible, inside there asleep. How could you not imagine them waking up and sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets, etc, etc, unless you had drugged them? Or tied them up, I guess.

Seriously criminally negligent no matter what way you look at it.

Yes, Steadfast, that is exactly my "sticking point." How could they--especially as doctors--be so certain that children could not injure themselves when left alone in the room? The location of the pool in itself is a huge concern.

The only way they could be certain is to be certain the children were sleeping soundly.

And why not admit they gave the children something to help them sleep? It would actually help anyone believe that an intruder could take the sleeping Madeleine quickly and easily. Sure, the McCanns would face some censure and scorn for sedating the children, but that would pass soon enough, especially as people would feel overwhelming sympathy for an abducted child.

It always comes back to that point for me, because it just doesn't make sense.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I find it very disturbing that in the entire 6 pages of posts for this thread, it appears that not one person bothered to read past the third sentence of this tabloid article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811

British forensic experts expressed severe doubts about the claim. They said the fluid was only a partial match to Madeleine's DNA and the sample was not strong enough to determine the presence of drugs. Even so, the report will come as a grave blow to the McCanns

[Rino]

I find it very disturbing that in the entire 6 pages of posts for this thread, it appears that not one person bothered to read past the third sentence of this tabloid article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811

British forensic experts expressed severe doubts about the claim. They said the fluid was only a partial match to Madeleine's DNA and the sample was not strong enough to determine the presence of drugs. Even so, the report will come as a grave blow to the McCanns



Same as being interesting that it appears you did not read the last sentence of your disturbing observation?

Even so, the report will come as a grabe blow to the McCanns...

Why would it be a blow if the unnamed experts had solid ground to stand on. Or could it be simply spin??? Not saying they are guilty, but the spin machine works in both directions.

[kgeaux]

I find it very disturbing that in the entire 6 pages of posts for this thread, it appears that not one person bothered to read past the third sentence of this tabloid article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811


I expressed doubt about it. To me, it's been clear from the first moment that this allegation is nothing but lies......it Portugal had information to hang the McCann's, they'd do it YESTERDAY. They want to bad enough.

[kgeaux]

Same as being interesting that it appears you did not read the last sentence of your disturbing observation?

Even so, the report will come as a grabe blow to the McCanns...

Why would it be a blow if the unnamed experts had solid ground to stand on. Or could it be simply spin??? Not saying they are guilty, but the spin machine works in both directions.


It will be a blow, because negative publicity will increase the negative perception that people have. Already, people here are thinking that they DID sedate their children, with no evidence to support that at all. Just a tabloid, throwing out chit, based on nothing.

[CaliKid]

Is anyone besides me getting sick of the tug-of-war between the UK and Portugal? Portugal doesn't want it to be a kidnapper/child molester because they count on tourism to the Algarve from British citizens. The UK doesn't want it to be the McCanns because middle-class doctors are sacred cows who could not possibly (or to be more honest, should not) be over-sedating and leaving their children. And caught in the middle is a little 3-year-old girl who is quickly becoming a sideline in the media circus.

[SewingDeb]

Is anyone besides me getting sick of the tug-of-war between the UK and Portugal? Portugal doesn't want it to be a kidnapper/child molester because they count on tourism to the Algarve from British citizens. The UK doesn't want it to be the McCanns because middle-class doctors are sacred cows who could not possibly (or to be more honest, should not) be over-sedating and leaving their children. And caught in the middle is a little 3-year-old girl who is quickly becoming a sideline in the media circus.

I'm with you on this CaliKid. The press in the two countries have an obvious bias.

[zadari]

im getting confused with all of the threads about her .. did they find the child? .im not meaning this in a rude way . im just confused is all

[CaliKid]

im getting confused with all of the threads about her .. did they find the child? .im not meaning this in a rude way . im just confused is all

No, not yet.

[txsvicki]

Could the sedation have been tylenol type medication for the two twins and ADD medication for Madeline? Since they are doctors and probably have access to samples, maybe they started giving Madeline a couple of different ADD medication at a younger age than is recommended, one that would help her sleep at night such as an antidepressant or an antipsychotic.

[CaliKid]

That's a possibility. They're not supposed to be used on children, but several do make you very sleepy.

[trixie]

im getting confused with all of the threads about her .. did they find the child? .im not meaning this in a rude way . im just confused is all


What a beautiful little baby you have, zadari! Congratulations!:)

[Ca-Sun]

Uhhh....no. I have 3 healthy kids, a successful career and I have NEVER "sedated" them. NOT EVEN ONCE, and that is without a doubt. And, IMO, anyone who sedates their children for the sole purpose of making child-rearing easier, shouldn't be a parent in the first place. I say give they should give the kids up to people who have the mind faculties to raise them well, because they aren't being raised well if Mommy and/or Daddy resort to drugging them up because they can't hang!I agree with you, Eleven. I have 5 kids and I NEVER, EVER "sedated" any of them. I think it is just plain wrong.

[BethInAK]

I agree with you, Eleven. I have 5 kids and I NEVER, EVER "sedated" any of them. I think it is just plain wrong.


I can't tell you how many people have suggested I dose my little boy with benadryl when we are travelling via plane. Its SICK. If these were people without kids I'd totally get it - its something I might have said before I had my child, but this is like my mother in law (4 kids) and my boss (2 kids and a nurse) and a coworker (4 kids) - people who should know better.

[ThoughtFox]

I'm beginning to wonder how widespread this idea of "sedating" children is? The more I read, the more amazed I am. Healthy children aren't patients in a hospital, and there's no "book of parental rights" that allows parents to do that in order to have a quiet dinner. It's frightening to me that children are treated as such a botheration when they have just as much right to be cranky and awake as any adult. *shudder*

[BethInAK]

They might not be the best of parents for leaving their kids by themselves, in fact, they are crap parents for doing that- but at this stage the Mc's have not been proven to have killed their daughter, just been bad parents.

Thats right. Its not proven that they've killed madeleine. Its not been proven that they haven't either.

[twinkiesmom]

ADD medication consists of stimulants, not sedatives...They are given in the morning so as not not keep the kids up all night.

[hcc2007]

Actually science now backs up the cruelness of crying it out. Lots of research has been done and they now know the chemicals released when babies are stressed affect the way the brain develops and can cause problems for the rest of their life (mental health and stress related conditions). Thing is it's not obvious to parents as the consequences are not immediate.


Hi spacecowboy,

That research sounds VERY interesting! Can you point me/us to a couple of reports or give a good search string to find it on the web. I'd love to know more.

Thanks!

[Edwards20]

Due to a previous post by me, I felt compelled to post on this thread. I have been on the fence and daily sway from side to side .... emotions, evidence, leaks, etc. There is so much to consider here, and it's all nerve wracking. I want to believe they are innocent, because I don't want to think that someone could harm their child and then carry on like they did not.

One of the statements I made when questioning something was that I like to play the devil's advocate and provoke thought. After reading this thread, I can see how some might perceive that as "baiting", and I felt compelled to defend my statement.

I have been a member for a few years here, but don't post that often. I have been following the Teresa Parker case because it is very close to me and where I live. I have made many posts here on the Maddie forum. I have also followed the case of the mother and family killed in Powder Springs. It is very close to me as well.

It is my emotions and my detective instinct that draws me here to WS.

I have a 5 year old daughter, so this case really tugs at my heart. But, I also try to look at both sides.

With all that being said, I just want to make it clear that I am not being paid to be here (of course if I were, then I could certainly spend more time here).

I think this is an awesome thread, and I agree there are probably many "snakes" here, but I don't want you all to think that all fence sitters on this case are "snakes". I hope this makes sense, and that no one has any hard feelings towards me.

[SleuthMom]

Edward, I am a newbie here but for what I can tell nobody has an issue with those who are fence sitters :) The issue is only with those (REGARDLESS of their position) trying to tell people HOW they should post and WHAT they should not post or telling them they are too emotional involved, etc...basically, none of their business.

[Jeana (DP)]

I find it very disturbing that in the entire 6 pages of posts for this thread, it appears that not one person bothered to read past the third sentence of this tabloid article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481642&in_page_id=1811

Well we don't know for a fact that "not one person bothered to read past" anything, do we? In fact, even if one had, that doesn't discount the other things that raise the hinky meter. We're just here to discuss, nothing more.

[Jeana (DP)]

Okay?? :waitasec: , I find it strange that only the first 3 sentences have been discussed in an article of 56 sentences. LOL

Well I can't answer that for you. :waitasec: :waitasec:

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I deleted my last post because I felt it was argumentative. I'm sorry.

[txsvicki]

ADD medication consists of stimulants, not sedatives...They are given in the morning so as not not ke