General discussion thread No. 15

[Jeana (DP)]

Please continue here.

[colomom]

Justice and peace for Madeleine!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/1180740088_52.jpg

[BloodshotEye]

So Mrs. Fenn "corrects" the record? How very interesting. She has either been hounded to death, and wants to be left alone, or she has been threatened with a lawsuit? Hard to eliminate her statement altogether. I will need to go back, and read the witness statment made by the resort manager.

ok, I have one last post, before I throw my sorry @ss out of here, before you guys do ;]

Rental of the Scenic Car and the Weird Trip to see the Pope
What the hell was up with that European Find Maddie tour? I mean, really! And it seems that it was a peculiarly convenient time to rent the car, have it for one day, and then high-tail it out of the country for a while. Here's where I'm going:

1. Day 1 - The cadaver will begin putrefaction immediately after death, but we are estimating that cadaver dogs will detect a cadaver scent, 2 hours after death. Let this time/date start the clock running - Day 1.

2. Day 7 through day 15This is the interval of time, when technical papers written on the subject of putrefaction, suggest that a cadaver begins to shed hair.

Did anyone in the Tappas 9 group, have the rental agreement on the Scenic Renault, and simply allowed the McCann's to put that same car in the McCann's name?

Someone is thinking...we have to get this "package" out of here. However, you don't want to even be in this country, when it is moved. The McCanns' flight out of the country, could be considered rather a convenient time, for someone else to "move, transport and bury" the body. Most/all eyes were on the McCanns.

3. Day 25 - The McCanns hire the Scenic Renault.
4. Day 26 - The McCanns were reported to shop for needed clothes, before flying out to Rome, etc.

5. Day 27 - The McCanns fly out of Portugal
The Pope, who has been rather "absent" for years, during the perv-priest debacle, is amazingly available to the McCanns. I am dumbfounded. Pope knows a good photo op when he sees one. Pardon my sarcasim.

And the car becomes available to this circle of friends, family and others.
STOP: Here is the where I begin to ponder, how convenient it was, that a car was procured, and the McCanns fly out of the country. Now, we hear that this very car, turns out to have a cadaver scent and bodily fluids in the boot.

This was either a very deliberate staging of events, to move and bury the body; or it was an uncanny coincidence, that the "chain-of-custody" so to speak, for the car, is so hacked up by the communal use of the vehicle, the evidence collected from the car alone, would never convict the McCanns.

The PJ must have something else. Something big.

Ok...showing myself to the door...

[ceeaura]

Should have put a warning with that link colomom "warning:may cause crying"

That is such a sweet picture.Such a beautiful little girl.

[sleuthin4fun]

colomom- I love that picture of Maddie. It is so peaceful.
Thanks for sharing!

[SleuthMom]

The PJ must have something else. Something big. That's exactly what I think, they are taking their time because what they are gathering or have is HUGE, leaving no doubt on who are the perpetrator/s.

[CaliKid]

About Mrs. Fenn: I agree, she's probably been hounded to death. And she's bound by the same secrecy laws as the McCanns.

[colomom]

Should have put a warning with that link colomom "warning:may cause crying"

That is such a sweet picture.Such a beautiful little girl.

I am very sorry..you are right, a disclaimer is in order...

It is that sweetness and innocence and newness at life....it just grabs my heart and won't let go (no matter how hard I try to break free).

:blowkiss: ceeaura...I hope she is in the arms of the angels, no matter where she is.

[SleuthMom]

Thanks for the pic Colomom :( This little girl is PRECIOUS. *sigh* I was looking at a video with the Mc Canns and her in Portugal and she was soooo small! A little angel...:(

[ceeaura]

I am very sorry..you are right, a disclaimer is in order...

It is that sweetness and innocence and newness at life....it just grabs my heart and won't let go (no matter how hard I try to break free).

:blowkiss: ceeaura...I hope she is in the arms of the angels, no matter where she is.


Me too.Safe,happy and Loved!

[Siren]

Why is it that people assume that physician parents are less likely to neglect and/or abuse their children that a poor/uneducated parent?

Society doesn't want to recognize that child abuse has nothing to do with socioeconomics or race. Child abuse is a disease that permeates all of society because we don't want to confront it.

Look at the McCanns actions and put them in this perspective:

Mom is young and black, she leaves her child alone in an apartment so that she can go drinking with her friends just down the street. There isn't a social worker in this country who would defend the actions of this mother.

Why is it that because the McCanns were educated and white their actions become defensible? The McCanns are guilty of child neglect based upon their own admissions. FACT.

[SleuthMom]

Siren, you are ABSOLUTELY right. Unfortunately, society gets caught into the "look"/"race"/"social status" crap that they FAIL to see the real picture. The SAME people who defend the Mc Canns saying they could NOT possibly kill the little girl will NOT defend a woman in the same example you have given, I don't care what they said. THAT'S FOR SURE.

[Texana]

That is the kind of photo anyone would treasure because it shows you what a precious treasure the child is. I keep a photo of my oldest at that age on my nightstand...simply to remind me that she inside, she is always my precious child. You must pass out kleenex next time with a pic like that, dear!

It is infuriating to me as well that educated and wealthy parents are somehow immune to charges of child neglect.

There were two working class parents in southeast Harris County in the past year, they had a 30 minute overlap where one parent was coming home from swingshift and the other had to leave. They left the two young children sleeping in the apartment when they did that, in the early hours of the morning, but there was an electrical short and a fire, and the children died.

They are being charged criminally for the children's deaths. It is sickening to me to compare two people trying to make a living, and working, and the McCanns going out to have dinner with the disposable income to hire babysitters or nighttime daycare, but refusing.

Especially when the two parents involved should have known better than anyone else what can happen to unsupervised children.

[teacherbees]

Me too, Texana. My daughter is now 22 years old but one of the pics I keep on hand was taken when she was five. I love the picture because it seems to reveal the inner soul of my child, along with her sweet facial features. Even now, I can gaze at the picture and instantly recall what a precious little girl she was...now grown to a beautiful young woman.

The photo of Maddie is heartbreakingly poignant.

[docwho3]

Why is it that people assume that physician parents are less likely to neglect and/or abuse their children that a poor/uneducated parent? . . .. Because the last studies I ever saw quoted about the subject seemed to indicate the rate of abuse and other crimes was worse in low income households where education was also less. They have more stress and less knowhow to use in dealing with it.

As to the rest of your post which seemed to be bait for racial discussion: I don't think I will respond to such thoughts as that would be "taking the bait".


Has anyone stopped to think that just maybe the parents admission about leaving the children alone for a time was meant to sort of take the heat and suspicion off them for the more serious crime which perhaps only they knew had happened? It is an old old tactic to admit to a lesser sin to avoid having people find out about a much more serious crime.

Look how much wasted time and energy and attention has been spent in people getting angry about the lesser evil of leaving the children alone and whether or not this was child endangerment or not and so on while the attention paid to greater evil of the death of the missing little girl has paled by comparison. Were people then intentionally sidetracked?

[peace9274]

Brought over from Theory thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wicket
Could one parent be covering for another? Just suppose one parent has been known to have a quick temper and the other parent has been continuously covering for him/her. In this case, if this was found out, the twins would be taken away during investigation and also their reputations adversely affected. It has happened time and again where a parent professes the innocence of the other parent even when a child is covered with bruises, sexually molested or dead.

OTOH, the mother went through many procedures to have children - what if the father was less interested in fathering than has been depicted?

And around and around I go.......

I too have been going round and round... but I do agree with Wicket's above theory that one parent is covering for the other.

I mentioned on another thread that Maddie's emotionless expressions reminded me of Lisa Steinberg (Hedda Nussbaum's and Joel Steinberg's child that was abused and "accidently" killed). Hedda remained silent out of fear. Is Kate remaining silent and stoic because she's abused, blackmailed, threatened?

My theory of the moment is that Kate's eggs were used for the pregnancy, but not Gerry's sperm. He may have resentments that Maddie isn't truly his and doesn't feel strong emotional love towards her...

(Someone mentioned Gerry being narcissistic/sociopathic, which = not having normal emotions towards others; being capable of killing, covering up, grotesque manuveuring, abuse to the body, etc. ALA Scott P.)

I think the "accident" happened before the dinner. Kate and Gerry used the get-together at the bar as an alibi. I think the many bottles of wine were ordered and consumed to hide their fear and guilt, and to hopefully get their companions intoxicated enough to not notice Kate's and Gerry's demeaner.

Re vomit of a child mentioned:
When the "accident" did happen (whether over-dose, shaking, hitting, throwing) and caused Maddie's death, I think K and G tried CPR to revive her.
When I worked on the medical floor at Children's Hospital (LA), there were many times that we preformed CPR on a child.

Many times with compressions, vomitus would shoot out and all over us and the bed and sometimes the wall, even. (Depending on the contents of the child's stomach and how hard the compressor pressed.)

K and/or G called O'Brian to "help" revive Maddie, and got involved in the cover-up when he found out what really happened.

Maddie was dead and in a separate bedroom from the twins when K and G left for the bar. They told the person doing the "children check" rounds to NOT enter the room, but to just listen to see it if it was quiet in there.

This is my theory for now... until I read someone else's... in a few minutes!

For now, I'm just:

:confused: :banghead: :mad: :furious: :waitasec: :sick: :doh: :furious: :mad::confused:

[CaliKid]

Has anyone stopped to think that just maybe the parents admission about leaving the children alone for a time was meant to sort of take the heat and suspicion off them for the more serious crime which perhaps only they knew had happened? It is an old old tactic to admit to a lesser sin to avoid having people find out about a much more serious crime.

Look how much wasted time and energy and attention has been spent in people getting angry about the lesser evil of leaving the children alone and whether or not this was child endangerment or not and so on while the attention paid to greater evil of the death of the missing little girl has paled by comparison. Were people then intentionally sidetracked?

That's a good point. It's an old kids' ploy- admit to doing something minor, whether the truth or not, so you don't get nailed for a misbehavior that will land you in deep doo-doo.

[Taximom]

Oh my gosh, that picture....

[BethInAK]

So Mrs. Fenn "corrects" the record? How very interesting. She has either been hounded to death, and wants to be left alone, or she has been threatened with a lawsuit? Hard to eliminate her statement altogether. I will need to go back, and read the witness statment made by the resort manager.



I wonder if she's been threatened and is frightened - not necessarily by Team McCann but by supporters.

And I hope the PJ has something big - its impossible to tell IMO. The police investigations and the media relations are so different than in the us that I honestly have no idea whats true and whats false.

[MrsG728]

In looking at those pictures of them from May 27th, I couldn't help but remember Susan Smith at the grave of her children with the balloons and silly string... *shudder*. These two & their kids should have kept a low profile (in some ways). I don't think the blogs and public appearances were necessary. If they wanted to look like they're searching for Maddie, then the only thing they should have done was publicly appear to search for her. IMHO

Siren, you're absolutely right on how society can't conceive of an upper-class family doing something like this. Their actions are unfathomable.

NY'ers: do you remember this story? An internist/doctor here on Long Island tried to kill himself and was known to be depressed, even though he continued to practice. He finally did it by leaving the car running in the garage for many hours. His wife and daughter came home, and when they opened the door from the inside of the home (into the garage), they instantly died from Carbon Monoxide fumes. He was my doctor. I remember how shocked and angry everyone was because he was a doctor. I'll never forget what my mom said, "just because he has a Dr.'s license doesn't make him more human than you & me."

MG

[Shazza]

I looked at the picture of maddie and cried, that poor poor girl. Unable to say anymore.

[JanetElaine]

In looking at those pictures of them from May 27th, I couldn't help but remember Susan Smith at the grave of her children with the balloons and silly string... *shudder*.

She did that too?? Or did you mean Darlie Routier?

What strikes me from the McCanns' behavior compared to parents of other missing children is that all the other parents who were/turned out to be innocent, subjected themselves to all kinds of tests, questioning etc. voluntarily.
The McCanns make themselves seem very cooperative (at least in the beginning), but it's really all on the surface... they're not exactly offering to do this, or that, in order to aid the search.... they're very defensive, they're setting their terms.... reminds me of the Ramseys (I'm a fencesitter there).
I forget who's daughter was missing that said 'you do anything to get them to rule you out, so the investigation can move on', something like that. I think that's true if you really had no clue what happened to your missing child.

Again, this is a big 'I dunno' in this case for me... there are so many things that I can't exactly put my finger on with them, and maybe that is part of why I think they did something to her.... at least know what happened.

[Elphaba]

5. Day 27 - The McCanns fly out of Portugal
The Pope, who has been rather "absent" for years, during the perv-priest debacle, is amazingly available to the McCanns. I am dumbfounded. Pope knows a good photo op when he sees one. Pardon my sarcasim.

The Pope thing has been made bigger than the truth... the McCann PR media team has played it up far beyond than what it truly was. It wasn't exactly anything out of the ordinary: they got in on a "General Audience" with the Pope... it happens every Wednesday morning with a ton other people... it is just a scaled down version of what happens every Sunday in St. Peter's Square. They got all of maybe less than half a minute face time with him after the sermon, as he went along the rope meeting those in the General Audience, as he always does. He blessed Madeleine's picture then moved on to the next person... his interactions with the McCanns can be equated to an impersonal "hi, nice to meet you, bless your child's picture, next please" passing.

Those interested in getting tickets to the General Audience can go to the Church of Santa Susanna site.

This is the big thing about Madeleine's disappearance: her family seems to be very very media savy... but the sad thing is, they haven't really put much effort in finding her... they were more about their own personal face time, it seems.

[Texana]

The Pope thing has been made bigger than the truth... the McCann PR media team has played it up far beyond than what it truly was. It wasn't exactly anything out of the ordinary: they got in on a "General Audience" with the Pope... it happens every Wednesday morning with a ton other people... it is just a scaled down version of what happens every Sunday in St. Peter's Square. They got all of maybe less than half a minute face time with him after the sermon, as he went along the rope meeting those in the General Audience, as he always does. He blessed Madeleine's picture then moved on to the next person... his interactions with the McCanns can be equated to an impersonal "hi, nice to meet you, bless your child's picture, next please" passing.

Those interested in getting tickets to the General Audience can go to the Church of Santa Susanna site.

This is the big thing about Madeleine's disappearance: her family seems to be very very media savy... but the sad thing is, they haven't really put much effort in finding her... they were more about their own personal face time, it seems.

Interesting! Thanks for that insight! I've thought all along that the visit to the Pope smacked of "thought up by PR rep and arranged by same."

[Lurker]

Everyone keeps talking about how sweet she looks in the picture. I can't view photobucket from work! GRRR

Internet Nazi's!

I agree with the comments being made about the parents being doctors. Just because they're well educated, doesn't mean they have any common sense.

[christine2448]

Justice and peace for Madeleine!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/1180740088_52.jpg


She is absolutely beautiful.

[christine2448]

I hope she is in the arms of the angels, no matter where she is.


She has to be, there are so many people 'praying protection and angels' around this child!!!

I got 'Godbumps' from head to toe when I read your statement colo.

[2XL]

I think the thing that bothers me most about K & G is that they don't have the look of devestated parents. They still have that healthy glow, granted they may be keeping up the excersise routine, but their face doesn't show it to me. I also realize they have other children that need them and their attention, however, my face showed more stress than their when my son deployed for Iraq. Look at the faces of other parents of missing children, in the same time frame. K & G smile and it looks happy and peaceful. Not the smiles of the truly haunted. MO only. They just have never had "that look"

[colomom]

Everyone keeps talking about how sweet she looks in the picture. I can't view photobucket from work! GRRR

Internet Nazi's!

I agree with the comments being made about the parents being doctors. Just because they're well educated, doesn't mean they have any common sense.

Lurker...can you see it here:http://www.madeleinemccann.co.uk/index.php?option=com_easygallery&act=photos&cid=52&Itemid=20 ????

[Lurker]

Lurker...can you see it here:http://www.madeleinemccann.co.uk/index.php?option=com_easygallery&act=photos&cid=52&Itemid=20 ????

Yes! Thank you! How precious!

[Rhett]

I watched Nancy Grace last night and she had a segment on about Madeleine. At the bottom of the screen it displays a blue bar with writing on it while she is interviewing guests. Last night the blue bar read that "Mrs. Fenn did not tell about the argument she heard." What argument? Has anyone heard anything about this? They never discussed it last night unless I missed it. Just wondering if any of you have heard of this. Rhett.

[AfterMidnight]

Madeleine is/was a child possessed of an unearthly beauty. Has anyone else noticed that?

[hcc2007]

Yes, Madeleine was beautiful, but there are lots of unattractive children missing too, and they are just as loving and sweet and angelic. Maybe moreso. It kind of breaks my heart to think of parents whose missing child might not be so photogenic, and would they take it to the media, or would they just suffer alone?

[KR2tonenow]

Yes, Madeleine was beautiful, but there are lots of unattractive children missing too, and they are just as loving and sweet and angelic. Maybe moreso. It kind of breaks my heart to think of parents whose missing child might not be so photogenic, and would they take it to the media, or would they just suffer alone?

I like to add, if all the missing persons in the US had as much exposure as this case has, it would be awesome!!

PL are on the ball, and the clock is ticking!! I'd like to see as much energy and reporting on other children who are missing or perhaps dead in the US.
Boy what a difference it would make!!
:waitasec:

[CaliKid]

I posted this back in early July, but I thought I should pull it out since we're talking about grief.

This is Beth Twitty, the mother of missing Natalee Holloway. This picture was taken several days before Natalee disappeared in Aruba.
http://www.texasequusearch.org/images/NataleeGrad.jpg

This is Beth now, two years later. Look at how drawn she is and how much she's aged.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/criminal_mind/forensics/texas_equusearch/Beth-Holloway-Twitty150.jpg

I realize the two cases are different- Natalee is almost assuredly dead, and the McCanns think Madeleine's alive- and you can't expect the parents to grieve the same way. But do you see any resemblance between the photos:

http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/kate-mccann-missing-british-3-year-old-girl-madeleine-mccann-in-portugal-8vY4lO.jpg

[SleuthMom]

Okay, I would like to ask a question to my fellow Sleuthers: Do we assume/agree that SOME friends of the Mc Canns were involved in Maddie's death? The reason I ask this is because is beyond me the following scenario/conversation: Gerry/Kate: My goodness! We accidentally killed our daughter! Can you please help us HIDE and DISPOSE the body otherwise they will take away the twins from us, we will lose our licenses and we will end up in jail? Friend/s: Sure, no problem. Just give me a couple of bags, I will put her in the trunk of the car and then throw her in the ocean. I mean, PLEASE no matter how CLOSE your friend maybe...MOST NORMAL people will not want to get involved in a situation like this in the LEAST! They will rush to call the police or ask the authorities to be called. I find absolutely insane that some of the Tapas friends would be willing to hide and dispose the body UNLESS they were PART of this girl's death. Thoughts?

[2XL]

Calikid: your photo's just put into play about the way I feel. You can surely see the difference.

[teacherbees]

I don't know that it's valid to compare pictures because they're so subjective. You could take a picture of me today where I'd look pretty good, but in a few hours you might snap one that makes me look like death warmed over - angles, lighting, serendipity of the pose caught - all these affect how a photo looks.

That said, I DO agree with you that Kate often looks quite fit and fine in her pics. Hair nicely coiffed, cute clothes, ribbons in her hair, jewelfy etc...
Looking that good doesn't mean that she's guilty of killing of her daughter but it is sometimes a little eerie to look at.

After my third child was stillborn, I was devastated. I don't think i combed my hair for two weeks. I went around looking like a zombie. I had two living children to care for and that gave me a reason to get up out of bed in the mornings, though even that act was a struggle.

I remember thinking that grief is like a very hard, nearly impossible job that you have to get up and face every day. Like walking across the bottom of the ocean with lead weights tied to each foot.

I can't imagine what it would be like to find my child missing - especially at such a very young age. I sincerely doubt I'd be able to get up and style my hair, put on adorable clothes and then go smile for the photo-ops. Rather, I think you'd see me dissolving into sobs all day/ every day. Heaven knows, I did that when my son was born and died. To this day (seventeen years later), I can't look at the photos taken of him or think about his perfect beauty for very long without tears coming to my eyes.

[raisincharlie]

Has anyone been following the Brit forums. Interesting:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=13681


Note first post by sieve from today - be patient it takes a bit to load.

[Texana]

I think again, being doctors factored heavily into the willingness of others in the group to help.

As doctors, they are well acquainted either personally or by general anecdote with stories of doctors who made good judgement calls but were pilloried for the decisions later when parents died or suffered traumatic after effects, etc. They have to live daily with sometimes making split second decisions with impartial information.

My FIL suffered a mild heart attack about 13 years ago. When he was taken to the hospital, he was administered a dose of the TPA drug (I think it's a blood thinner) to alleviate the effects of the drug. However, for a small percentage of people with stroke history or a predisposition to stroke, a slight difference in medication dosage can trigger a catastrophic stroke. FIL had never had a stroke, but his mother had.

My FIL went from one day being set to be released to the next afternoon in surgery for a catastrophic stroke that left him severely brain-injured and physically impaired.

Somewhere a doctor has to live with the results of the dosage he prescribed. (we confirmed this with a cardiologist relative after all this happened.) I'm sure all doctors at some point and in varying degrees, come in contact with that aspect of being a physician--being unfairly at times blamed for decisions or even fairly blamed, whatever.

So I believe that the McCanns friends would be more sympathetic to helping cover up a "mistake" that resulted in the death of their child. They would see it as the McCanns suffering needlessly for what was a mistake in judgement and an accident. Why should they lose their other children if the authorities decided they were negligent? Why should they be faced with losing the reputations, careers, and possibly medical licenses? Any overdose for a doctor's child would be splattered across the tabloids. "Dr. Mum Doses Tot to Death."

That's why sometimes Kate looks so grief-stricken and despairing, she really is mourning her child. Other times she is able to talk to herself about how her child is now in a better place and would want the rest of the family to be happy. It's why she can say with such certainty, "Maddie knows we love her" when asked what she would say to her child.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...-1279448,.html

[Jdee]

I don't know that it's valid to compare pictures because they're so subjective. You could take a picture of me today where I'd look pretty good, but in a few hours you might snap one that makes me look like death warmed over - angles, lighting, serendipity of the pose caught - all these affect how a photo looks.

That said, I DO agree with you that Kate often looks quite fit and fine in her pics. Hair nicely coiffed, cute clothes, ribbons in her hair, jewelfy etc...
Looking that good doesn't mean that she's guilty of killing of her daughter but it is sometimes a little eerie to look at.

After my third child was stillborn, I was devastated. I don't think i combed my hair for two weeks. I went around looking like a zombie. I had two living children to care for and that gave me a reason to get up out of bed in the mornings, though even that act was a struggle.

I remember thinking that grief is like a very hard, nearly impossible job that you have to get up and face every day. Like walking across the bottom of the ocean with lead weights tied to each foot.

I can't imagine what it would be like to find my child missing - especially at such a very young age. I sincerely doubt I'd be able to get up and style my hair, put on adorable clothes and then go smile for the photo-ops. Rather, I think you'd see me dissolving into sobs all day/ every day. Heaven knows, I did that when my son was born and died. To this day (seventeen years later), I can't look at the photos taken of him or think about his perfect beauty for very long without tears coming to my eyes.

Teacher your post made me cry... Sending you warm thoughts...:blowkiss:

[Guruinu2]

Has anyone been following the Brit forums. Interesting:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=13681


Note first post by sieve from today - be patient it takes a bit to load.
Very interesting Forum, thanks for this!

[Texana]

Teacher...my heart goes out to you. We lost a nephew 40 days after birth.
Hugs, I know that pain must have been immeasurable and at times as you said the loss is still so aching.

Hugs (()))

[jacobean]

Has anyone been following the Brit forums. Interesting:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=13681


Note first post by sieve from today - be patient it takes a bit to load.

I checked this out - there was nothing on the 10 o' clock news tonight....

[KOOL LOOK]

I think again, being doctors factored heavily into the willingness of others in the group to help.

As doctors, they are well acquainted either personally or by general anecdote with stories of doctors who made good judgement calls but were pilloried for the decisions later when parents died or suffered traumatic after effects, etc. They have to live daily with sometimes making split second decisions with impartial information.

My FIL suffered a mild heart attack about 13 years ago. When he was taken to the hospital, he was administered a dose of the TPA drug (I think it's a blood thinner) to alleviate the effects of the drug. However, for a small percentage of people with stroke history or a predisposition to stroke, a slight difference in medication dosage can trigger a catastrophic stroke. FIL had never had a stroke, but his mother had.

My FIL went from one day being set to be released to the next afternoon in surgery for a catastrophic stroke that left him severely brain-injured and physically impaired.

Somewhere a doctor has to live with the results of the dosage he prescribed. (we confirmed this with a cardiologist relative after all this happened.) I'm sure all doctors at some point and in varying degrees, come in contact with that aspect of being a physician--being unfairly at times blamed for decisions or even fairly blamed, whatever.

So I believe that the McCanns friends would be more sympathetic to helping cover up a "mistake" that resulted in the death of their child. They would see it as the McCanns suffering needlessly for what was a mistake in judgement and an accident. Why should they lose their other children if the authorities decided they were negligent? Why should they be faced with losing the reputations, careers, and possibly medical licenses? Any overdose for a doctor's child would be splattered across the tabloids. "Dr. Mum Doses Tot to Death."

That's why sometimes Kate looks so grief-stricken and despairing, she really is mourning her child. Other times she is able to talk to herself about how her child is now in a better place and would want the rest of the family to be happy. It's why she can say with such certainty, "Maddie knows we love her" when asked what she would say to her child.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...-1279448,.html

Absolutely brillant incite. Way to go. You are right. Doctors are accustomed to death by drugs being administered. That's an everyday part of their lives. Unlike us, we would be devastated. This in itself, makes alot of common sense, is truthful, and doesn't take a rocket scientist to agree.

Very good point. A point needed desperately in making sense here of this case. Way to go. This thought does not need to get lost. We need to start a thread for such ideas, suggestions, facts, evidence and so forth that we're figuring out could and does and is relevant that hasn't been brought to light yet.

There are just some things we as people can surmise to be a fact without it being written in concrete for us by someone in an official capacity.

A thread named somethign to the effect:

Sleuthers Ideas not to be lost in the scheme of things. I hope I got my point out correctly in the essence and point I'm trying to make. Some ideas are just worth keeping up with and not lost. This is one of them.

[colomom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article2456672.ece

Face it: we need the McCanns to be guilty

[colomom]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=481886&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

Judge to call Kate McCann back to Portugal

[SleuthMom]

Colomom, if that last link you posted is accurate...it is really depressing! :( Basically if they do not find a body or the Mc Canns confess (which will never happen) nothing can be done about it no matter the DNA evidence. :(

[Elphaba]

...if that last link you posted is accurate...it is really depressing! :(

Tabloid reporting is rampant in England... they come a dime a dozen... or I should say 10pence a dozen. I love England, even love reading the tabloids sometimes, but you have to take the tabloids there with a grain of salt. Daily Mail is, I think, the oldest tabloid in that country...

[Texana]

Thanks, Kool look. :blowkiss:

I really feel the fact that they are both doctors and the other members of the group as well, makes for unique circumstances.

However, Brefie gets to throw fresh tomatoes at me if I turn out to be wrong.

[SleuthMom]

Elphaba, thanks for that info. I remain hopeful justice will be served for little Angel Madeleine. :(

[Elphaba]

Elphaba, thanks for that info. I remain hopeful justice will be served for little Angel Madeleine. :(

Same here... justice for Madeleine!

[CaliKid]

I know this is not a "religious" forum, but I want to ask all sleuthers to offer up a prayer to whatever god they believe in (or good thoughts for Maddie if you don't believe) that she will be found right away.

If she is alive, ask that the kidnapper will make a mistake or Madeleine returned to her family. If she is dead, that her body is discovered. Wherever she is, in whatever state, she needs to go home. She needs justice.

[AfterMidnight]

Colomom, if that last link you posted is accurate...it is really depressing! :( Basically if they do not find a body or the Mc Canns confess (which will never happen) nothing can be done about it no matter the DNA evidence. :(

Why is it depressing that the McCanns can't be hung without PROOF of their guilt?

[AfterMidnight]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article2456672.ece

Face it: we need the McCanns to be guilty

After reading the article I agree with the title if not all the conclusions drawn in it. I believe some people need the McCanns to be guilty because it makes them feel better about themselves. I further believe all those howling for the blood of the McCanns need vindication for their own sins using the McCanns as scapegoats. Blaming, defaming, and pointing fingers at the McCanns does not make the finger-pointers better people or better parents - but it does say a lot about those doing the pointing.

[Taximom]

When would the McCann's have been on a boat?
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=296318
Maddie's body 'dumped in the sea'
Saturday Sep 15 15:00 AEST
Portuguese police believe Madeleine McCann's body was dumped at sea from a British-owned yacht, according to newspaper reports.
This latest theory contends that the body of four-year-old Madeleine was thrown into the ocean in a weighted sack, The Sun reported today. (more at link)

[philamena]

omg that is absurd! Is every newspaper in the UK a rag mag?

[CaliKid]

When would the McCann's have been on a boat?
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=296318
Maddie's body 'dumped in the sea'
Saturday Sep 15 15:00 AEST
Portuguese police believe Madeleine McCann's body was dumped at sea from a British-owned yacht, according to newspaper reports.
This latest theory contends that the body of four-year-old Madeleine was thrown into the ocean in a weighted sack, The Sun reported today. (more at link)

This makes me wonder about that yacht that had been in the harbor for two years and left the night Madeleine disappeared.

[Taximom]

I'm sorry, I don't know which sites are considered "rag mags" or not.

[Carpe Pacem]

This is from today's San Diego Union-Tribune, in reference to parents who caused the death of their baby by giving him Benadryl and Unisom to get him to sleep. Both have medical backgrounds, and face huge repercussions (17 years to life in prison) if convicted. Tragic. It brings home to me the reality of parents doing this sort of thing. (I do apologize if I've posted this in the wrong thread.)

Friday, Sept. 14, 2007

Parents to be tried in death of infant son

Baby was given adult medications

By Dana Littlefield
STAFF WRITER

September 14, 2007

DOWNTOWN SAN DIEGO – While visiting relatives in San Diego last year, a Washington couple woke one morning and discovered their baby boy's limbs had turned blue.



Advertisement He had stopped breathing.
Police officers were called to a Talmadge apartment, where they found the child on the floor. The boy's father was kneeling over the infant, police said, trying to revive him.

Despite the father's efforts, 6-month-old Thomas Boettger Jr. died Oct. 25, 2006. Medical experts determined that the boy had suffered acute intoxication from over-the-counter medications, an antihistamine and a sleeping aid.

Now the child's parents, Lorrie Jean Boettger, 38, and Thomas Michael Boettger Sr., 39, face charges of murder and child abuse. The couple were arrested in Shelton, Wash., and extradited to San Diego in March.

At the end of a four-day hearing in San Diego Superior Court, Judge Roger Krauel determined yesterday that prosecutors presented enough evidence for the Boettgers to stand trial. If convicted, they could receive a sentence of 15 years to life in prison.

According to testimony at the hearing, Thomas Boettger told a police officer that he had given the baby medication the night before because he was fussy.

“He told me that the baby had been colicky and not sleeping well,” Officer Christopher Luth testified, adding that Boettger said the baby suffered from acid reflux.

“He had told me that he had crushed the pills up and given them to the baby orally,” Luth said.

Investigators found packets of diphenhydramine and doxylamine – known by the brand names Benadryl and Unisom – in the bathroom of the apartment. A baby bottle and a syringe were found in a nearby bedroom where paramedics had tended to the baby.

Lorrie Boettger told an investigator in a telephone interview that she and her husband had given over-the-counter medications to their baby regularly to help him sleep, according to testimony from a San Diego police detective.

Deputy District Attorney Matthew Greco said the Boettgers may not have intended to kill their son but showed a “conscious disregard for human life” by giving him adult medications when they knew the potential danger.

Greco noted that the couple had experience in health-related fields. Thomas Boettger worked as a volunteer firefighter and emergency medical technician, and Lorrie Boettger worked as a midwife.

“Here we have two people who are involved intimately in the preservation of life,” the prosecutor said.

Defense lawyers argued there is little evidence, if any, that the couple committed a crime.

Merle Schneidewind, who represents Thomas Boettger, contended that it's still unclear whether the medications caused the child's death. He said medical experts don't know whether the drugs found in the baby's blood reached toxic levels.

Defense lawyer Elizabeth Comeau, who is representing Lorrie Boettger, said the Boettgers had researched the drugs on the Internet and reduced the dosages by cutting pills in half and diluting them with water.

“There is no conscious disregard by them actually taking the time to reduce the level,” Comeau said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Littlefield: (619) 542-4590; dana.littlefield@uniontrib.com

[Taximom]

When my child needed Benedryl for an allergic reaction i was told by my doctor that there really isn't a set amount for a child, but to go ahead and give it to her (his suggested dose) anyway.

I can tell you that I did not sleep a wink that night because I feared she might die like those I've heard about in the news. She was fine, of course.

[ThoughtFox]

Carpe Pacem: Thank you for that article!

The similarities are uncanny:

~Health Care Professionals
~Children described as "Colicky"
~Enough medicine to knock out a child

It's not the medicine that is somehow bad - everyone in the world uses Benadryl because it is a good antihistamine. I've given it to my kids for itching and bee stings, as well as sinus trouble, and they do get sleepy. But there is a line that some of these people cross when they are trying to just make their kids "go away" to sleep and leave them alone.

I don't get the whole "yacht" hypothesis yet. Gosh - that sounds like the Aruba case with the missing girl.

I'm also reading about the Kate's Diary that has supposedly been "leaked." Is there enough for a new thread about that, do you think? Or is it all too speculative at this point? I'll start one if you think it's valid.

[AfterMidnight]

=ThoughtFox;1680951]Carpe Pacem: Thank you for that article!

The similarities are uncanny:

~Health Care Professionals
~Children described as "Colicky"
~Enough medicine to knock out a child

It's not the medicine that is somehow bad - everyone in the world uses Benadryl because it is a good antihistamine. I've given it to my kids for itching and bee stings, as well as sinus trouble, and they do get sleepy. But there is a line that some of these people cross when they are trying to just make their kids "go away" to sleep and leave them alone.

Let me try to understand this. It's all right to give drugs to children as long as you don't medicate them so you can go have dinner? If your children died as a result of medication, would it be all right because your motives were pure? And, of course, it would not be all right because the McCann's motives were selfish? Does that mean one child is less DEAD than the other? WHO draws the line?

[april4sky]

After reading the article I agree with the title if not all the conclusions drawn in it. I believe some people need the McCanns to be guilty because it makes them feel better about themselves. I further believe all those howling for the blood of the McCanns need vindication for their own sins using the McCanns as scapegoats. Blaming, defaming, and pointing fingers at the McCanns does not make the finger-pointers better people or better parents - but it does say a lot about those doing the pointing.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

The thing that saddens me most is that all the deliberate smearing of the McCanns by rumor and inuendo is more often than not taken as fact and this has now completely scuppered the search for Madeleine.
Does anyone really think the Portugese police are still searching for her?

There doesn't seem to be any question any more by some that Madeleine may still be alive and out there somewhere. And what if she is!!!!

Innocent until proven guilty...Mmmmm if only!!!

[CaliKid]

Parents have to use common sense when administering medication to their children, no matter what it is or why they want to use it. That's why it's important to read instructions on OTC meds as well as prescriptions. You would think doctors would be more aware of this than the average person.

[CaliKid]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

The thing that saddens me most is that all the deliberate smearing of the McCanns by rumor and inuendo is more often than not taken as fact and this has now completely scuppered the search for Madeleine.
Does anyone really think the Portugese police are still searching for her?

There doesn't seem to be any question any more by some that Madeleine may still be alive and out there somewhere. And what if she is!!!!

Innocent until proven guilty...Mmmmm if only!!!

Let's just assume the JP has either leaked this news on purpose or someone in their office is feeding stories to the media and the Portuguese press is telling the truth. So Madeleine's hair and body fluids have been found in a Renault Scenic. The body fluids contain enough sedatives to be called an overdose for a child her size. The death scent has been tracked to a means of disposing of her body.

Why would the PJ continue to search for her and waste resources if they think she's dead?

[ThoughtFox]

Let me try to understand this. It's all right to give drugs to children as long as you don't medicate them so you can go have dinner? If your children died as a result of medication, would it be all right because your motives were pure? And, of course, it would not be all right because the McCann's motives were selfish? Does that mean one child is less DEAD than the other? WHO draws the line?
The parents draw that line by their choices. Why were they medicating children who weren't sick?

I'm sorry if my opinion seems strange, but I don't believe parents should medicate children when they are not ill. I have yet to read one word about why these children needed to be medicated except for a sunburn, and if they were sick enough to need medicine, why were they left alone for two hours every night? I think those are valid questions that many parents are asking.

I realize I've never been to Portugal or the UK, but in the U.S. leaving children alone night after night is neglect, whether someone is on vacation or "feels safe" or not. That's a choice the parents make, too, and they have to live with the consequences.

[Taximom]

Not knowing what's "rag" and what isn't, I half-heartedly post this article:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/police-confess-they-have-lsquonothingrsquo-on-the-mccanns-1081001.html
Police confess they have ‘nothing’ on the McCanns
Saturday September 15 2007
Detectives may be depending on Kate and Gerry McCann making a confession in order to prove their suspicions, a Portuguese newspaper reported.The couple were declared formal suspects in the case exactly a week ago, and are now back in Britain waiting to learn whether they will be charged.
A “high-ranking” officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) – Portugal's criminal investigation department – said the evidence was not even strong enough to prove whether Madeleine is dead.
It is now 134 days since the young girl vanished from her bed in her family's holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz. The unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper: “We have nothing concrete. “There are a lot of indications, but without more elements it's impossible to determine what happened in those four vital hours in the case (between 6pm and 10pm on the night Madeleine vanished).
“Even if the blood and traces gathered in the car or in the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100pc to the little irl's DNA, that wouldn't prove anything.
“Those elements could only confirm – and that doesn't even happen – that the little girl was in the apartment and in the car. “In either of the cases nothing would prove homicide, just that the body of the little girl had been transferred in the vehicle.
“We don't know if Madeleine is dead, and if she is, how it all happened. “Was she strangled? Could she have been beaten? “They are questions only the parents could clarify in an eventual confession.” This appears to contradict a report that the forensic Science Service in Birmingham is examining bloodstains from the apartment next to the McCanns'.
Police believe this sample could hold the key to where Madeleine's body could have been stored after she vanished, the Evening Standard said. Yesterday, the McCanns spent the day in meetings with their London-based lawyers, Kingsley Napley.
A friend said yesterday that Madeleine's parents were under intense pressure but were “not cracking up”. (more at link)

[shrinkydink]

omg that is absurd! Is every newspaper in the UK a rag mag?

It's News Nine, the most popular televised news programme in Australia. I am fairly certain this wouldn't count as a rag.

Shrinky

[narlacat]

It's News Nine, the most popular televised news programme in Australia. I am fairly certain this wouldn't count as a rag.

Shrinky

I'll take your word on that Shrinky :)- about Nines news being the most popular- I know Nine always gets the best ratings but not sure if their news is the most watched.

SBS news is the most uncensored news here in Oz- that's as close to the truth as it gets.

I think Philamena was talking about the newspaper quoted in the article, The Sun...which I assume is our Sun- lol- but could be the UK's Sun, not quite sure.

[april4sky]

Let's just assume the JP has either leaked this news on purpose or someone in their office is feeding stories to the media and the Portuguese press is telling the truth. So Madeleine's hair and body fluids have been found in a Renault Scenic. The body fluids contain enough sedatives to be called an overdose for a child her size. The death scent has been tracked to a means of disposing of her body.

Why would the PJ continue to search for her and waste resources if they think she's dead?

Calikid I'm sorry but assumptions don't do it for me.

And I no longer have much faith in the Portugese police, I think they have bungled this case from the get go. Aruba comes to mind.

I don't find them very professional as they have been responsible for most of the leaks to the press. They seem happy to break their own secrecy laws. And then more often than not they back away from the "breaking news". Like not being quite the 100% DNA match first put out!!! Clumps of hair....Still like to know if this is true!!!

I read an article yesterday. Sorry, just looked for it and couldn't find it again.
The jist of it was a DNA expert was saying that in his opinion it would be impossible to be certain the DNA "found" was Madeleine's and not another family member.
As for the hair. He would have been surprised if they hadn't found some of Madeleine's hair in the car as her things would be with the rest of the families posessions. And while it is possible to test for sedatives it would be impossible to tell the amount of sedatives used. And therefore prove an overdose. We would be back to dangerous speculation again.

And the Portugese police themselves have said even they cannot be certain that Madeleine is dead.

IMO. They have no idea what happened to Madeleine. They are fishing and hoping to catch something...someone!!!

Thats why I want to know facts, not rumors and inuendo.

I do hope they are still looking for Madeleine, but after the last few weeks I doubt it...I'm sad to say.

[shrinkydink]

I'll take your word on that Shrinky :)- about Nines news being the most popular- I know Nine always gets the best ratings but not sure if their news is the most watched.

SBS news is the most uncensored news here in Oz- that's as close to the truth as it gets.

I think Philamena was talking about the newspaper quoted in the article, The Sun...which I assume is our Sun- lol- but could be the UK's Sun, not quite sure.

Ahh - she might have meant the UK Sun. Sure, that's a tabloid. BUT that story about the boat was the same story as reported by News Nine in the link in that same mail. I've read the story a few places here in the European papers - non-tabloid, mainly - this morning (sadly, I am not in Oz today), but so far it looks to have no supporting evidence, other than the sniffer dogs tracing the cadaver smell there. I have yet to read that there is any evidence the McCanns were ever on a boat there.


Shrinky

PS. You're right about News Nine, too. The ratings are the best, but I don't know that they would win a real popularity poll, lol.

[narlacat]

Calikid I'm sorry but assumptions don't do it for me.

And I no longer have much faith in the Portugese police, I think they have bungled this case from the get go. Aruba comes to mind.

I don't find them very professional as they have been responsible for most of the leaks to the press. They seem happy to break their own secrecy laws. And then more often than not they back away from the "breaking news". Like not being quite the 100% DNA match first put out!!! Clumps of hair....Still like to know if this is true!!!

I read an article yesterday. Sorry, just looked for it and couldn't find it again.
The jist of it was a DNA expert was saying that in his opinion it would be impossible to be certain the DNA "found" was Madeleine's and not another family member.
As for the hair. He would have been surprised if they hadn't found some of Madeleine's hair in the car as her things would be with the rest of the families posessions. And while it is possible to test for sedatives it would be impossible to tell the amount of sedatives used. And therefore prove an overdose. We would be back to dangerous speculation again.

And the Portugese police themselves have said even they cannot be certain that Madeleine is dead.

IMO. They have no idea what happened to Madeleine. They are fishing and hoping to catch something...someone!!!

Thats why I want to know facts, not rumors and inuendo.

I do hope they are still looking for Madeleine, but after the last few weeks I doubt it...I'm sad to say.



DNA whiz offers help

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/dna-whiz-offers-help/2007/09/13/1189276885201.html

<<The parents of Madeleine McCann have reportedly been offered the help of a top British DNA expert who has said he would act as a witness if it came to a trial over the girl's disappearance.>>

[narlacat]

Ahh - she might have meant the UK Sun. Sure, that's a tabloid. BUT that story about the boat was the same story as reported by News Nine in the link in that same mail. I've read the story a few places here in the European papers - non-tabloid, mainly - this morning (sadly, I am not in Oz today), but so far it looks to have no supporting evidence, other than the sniffer dogs tracing the cadaver smell there. I have yet to read that there is any evidence the McCanns were ever on a boat there.


Shrinky

PS. You're right about News Nine, too. The ratings are the best, but I don't know that they would win a real popularity poll, lol.

- it was the same story as reported by Nine in the link- glad we've got that sorted lol

No...I never watch Nine- ABC kid here :) oh and 10 because of Neighbours :blushing: :p :D

[shrinkydink]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this somewhere else already, but is relates the Joana Cipriano case to Madeleine McCann:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283987,00.html

Shrinky

[narlacat]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this somewhere else already, but is relates the Joana Cipriano case to Madeleine McCann:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283987,00.html

Shrinky

Thanks Shrinky- I hadn't read that article- not sure if someone has already posted it.

[rashomon]

omg that is absurd! Is every newspaper in the UK a rag mag?
"The Sun" is certainly one of the worst trash papers they have in the UK.

[petra]

MEDIA BLITZ

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/15/europe/EU-GEN-Britain-Missing-Girl.php

[petra]

ALL NEWS ARTICLES UPDATED

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Madeleine+McCann

[colomom]

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=latest&action=display&thread=1182386581&page=28 post #412

(Translation posted, with permission)

A column by comedian Ricardo Araujo Pereira, in Visao, September 13, 2007:

Like a strength that nobody can stop

I’ve been following with a great deal of interest and emotion the Portugal-England [match].

Maybe the reader is now finding it difficult, given the fact that the country is involved in so many sports challenges, to discover which one we are disputing with the English. I’m talking about the championship of missing children. At the moment, the challenge is at its peak, and the supporters are, as it is usual to say, a show within the show. We yell from here: “As-sas-sins! As-sas-sins!” They yell back: “In-com-pe-tents! In-com-pe-tents!” Then we shout: “Pee-Jay! Pee-Jay!” And they chant: “McCanns, you’ll never walk alone!” It causes goosebumps.

For anyone who has failed to follow the competition since the beginning, I have been gathering clippings from the national and the British press, which allow us to follow the evolution of the dispute. Here they are:

Portuguese press: “An alleged girl, allegedly English, who was spending an alleged holiday in the alleged Algarve, allegedly disappeared from the alleged hotel where she was allegedly staying.”

English press: “A British citizen, beautiful like an angel, was abducted in the Algarve today. Five minutes after the crime, the Portuguese police still didn’t know the kidnappers’ identity, which probably are in great number and of Arabic origin.”

Portuguese press: “The British couple whose child disappeared in Portimao was heard by the Judiciaria today. The English had a sad, tearful face, which is proper for someone who is guilty of something.”

English press: “The Portuguese police interrogated the McCanns today, instead of going out into the terrain to search for the perpetrators. As usual with citizens in the Third World, they prefer less tiresome activities over the ones that really involve working.”

Portuguese press: “Although it’s obvious the parents are no good, the prestigious Policia Judiciaria (considered to be one of the world’s best) is still searching selflessly for the kidnappers of the English girl, when they would do better to use their time searching equally missing Portuguese children. We’d like to remind you that in the latest confrontations between Portugal and England in international football competitions, Portugal always won.”

British press: “The McCanns returned to civilization today, coming from Portugal, where they have been made arguidos by the authorities of that African country. Wait a second, I’ve just checked the map and it seems that Portugal is in Europe. But barely so.”

Portuguese press: “Kate and Gerry McCann, the couple from the United Kingdom, which is also home to Jack, the Ripper (an assassin that, by the way, the British police has so far failed to catch), have sheltered themselves in their country, where they possess a hiding-place in the Leicester area.”

And this is the moment we’re at.

[AfterMidnight]

That was an absolute riot. Thanks, colomom, needed the laugh.

[Texana]

That was hilarious! Perfect! Thanks, Colomom!

[englishleigh]

That's exactly how it is, isn't it??

I needed that laugh, too. Thanks, Colomom!!!

[ceeaura]

Thank you for posting that colomom! That was great.:blowkiss:

[ceeaura]

Seems they may have found little Ylenia.


http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Body_of_missing_girl_found.html?siteSect=105&sid=8221344&cKey=1189871988000&ty=st

[colomom]

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1681541&postcount=67

"The last record of the vehicle was made in July, also on the 3rd, and the counter of the vehicle registered 5864 kilometres. Which means that from May 27 until July 3 – a little over a month – it ran 2750."

1700 miles??? Cut that in half...850 miles (take away 100, that's being generous) for driving around town. 750 miles....what is within 750 miles of Praia da Luz?

I need help on this one....

[KOOL LOOK]

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1681541&postcount=67

"The last record of the vehicle was made in July, also on the 3rd, and the counter of the vehicle registered 5864 kilometres. Which means that from May 27 until July 3 – a little over a month – it ran 2750."

1700 miles??? Cut that in half...850 miles (take away 100, that's being generous) for driving around town. 750 miles....what is within 750 miles of Praia da Luz?

I need help on this one....

Wow, is that mileage reading true and accurate? Wowsa, that's alot of mileage. didn't I see aerial views of the resort and there's nothing within like a five mile radius past the resort except the church and grounds of it?

Hmmmmmmm!

[colomom]

Seems they may have found little Ylenia.


http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Body_of_missing_girl_found.html?siteSect=105&sid=8221344&cKey=1189871988000&ty=st

Sad, sad, sad....such a baby....

Please God, in the arms of the angels http://smileydatabase.com/s/128.gif

http://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmphttp://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmphttp://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmp

[CaliKid]

Sad, sad, sad....such a baby....

Please God, in the arms of the angels http://smileydatabase.com/s/128.gif

http://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmphttp://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmphttp://smileydatabase.com/s/605.bmp

Poor Ylenia. This wasn't the closure we hoped for her. If there was a chance of Madeleine being kidnapped, I'd hoped there was a tie-in with her.

[shrinkydink]

Poor Ylenia. This wasn't the closure we hoped for her. If there was a chance of Madeleine being kidnapped, I'd hoped there was a tie-in with her.

Well if you'd read the article, you would know that there might be a connection. The man who killed her lived in Spain with his wife. The Swiss police are still investigating a possible connection with Madeleine's case.

Shrinky

[colomom]

I did read the article. We here at WS have been following Ylenia's disappearance since late July and the possible connection in the same week. Why are you trying to make it sound like we're stupid or something?

Getting an itchy finger for that ignore button Cali?

:blowkiss:

To whom it may concern:

FYI....When it comes to Calikid....you would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable, considerate, respectful poster on this board!

[CaliKid]

Getting an itchy finger for that ignore button Cali?

:blowkiss:

To whom it may concern:

FYI....When it comes to Calikid....you would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable, considerate, respectful poster on this board!

Thank you, colomom. :dance:

Truthfully, you are the one doing all the work here.

[Shazza]

Thank you, colomom. :dance:

Truthfully, you are the one doing all the work here.
You guys are both great, the information you bring to this forum is excellent, how we all perceive it is our personal opinion, you guys find the news not say it. The messengers should not be shot, they are only relaying what they find out there and then bring it here for us to discuss, if you dont agree dont slam the poster who brought it here.

[Jeana (DP)]

stay On Topic And Stop Attacking One Another.

[STEADFAST]

from http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2170338,00.html
Maddy police: we blundered

Family release new pictures and announce fresh campaign as police admit confusion and infighting wrecked the early days of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance . . . The sources said that potentially crucial evidence about what happened to Madeleine, aged four, on the night of 3 May had been lost by the time the first local police arrived, due to the presence of 'the McCanns, their friends and others' in the holiday flat from which she disappeared. In the days that followed, there was growing tension between the Algarve force, which took the lead in the investigation, and senior officers from Lisbon . . . [the source also said that] Portuguese investigators were now united in their conviction that the McCanns' accounts of what happened on 3 May 'never rang true' and that 'they could hold the key' to the case. . . . Gerry McCann had initially told police that he entered the flat in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz from a 'locked front door,' but later said he had entered through the open back terrace . . . Kate McCann, he added, at first said the back window was open and the blind raised, while other witnesses disagreed. He also described how a plastic barrier near their restaurant table would have 'prevented any clear view of events inside the flat' and that contradictory accounts had raised doubts among the investigators about their claim to have checked on Madeleine and the McCanns' two-year-old twins during dinner. . . the source also raised for the first time the possibility of prosecutors bringing lesser charges - 'notably, the abandonment or neglect of a child' - against them. . . . 'It will be very, very difficult, until and unless a body is found - and with DNA and other evidence so far inconclusive - to bring a charge of homicide,' the source said. . . a recent spate of negative newspaper reports has led the McCanns to believe there has been an orchestrated campaign of leaks to undermine them. . . One police source yesterday referred to 'pure speculation in the Portuguese media' ahead of the judge's ruling. He dismissed a local newspaper report, which was picked up worldwide, that police were now increasingly convinced that Madeleine's body had been dumped into the sea.

There's more at link, of course.

[KR2tonenow]

Thanks for the last update!

[KR2tonenow]

ALL NEWS ARTICLES UPDATED

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Madeleine+McCann

I curiously want to know who the "Mystery Man" is, that has been seen around the McCanns and Robert Murat in Portugal?

Does anyone know yet?:cool:

[CaliKid]

I'm assuming it's the man who was photographed in the background of that picture of Gerry and the kids in the park who was also snapped in a couple pix with Robert Murat- the tall man with the sunglasses and bald head.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1666442&postcount=6

Known as "Playground man" in the above photos.

[KR2tonenow]

I'm assuming it's the man who was photographed in the background of that picture of Gerry and the kids in the park who was also snapped in a couple pix with Robert Murat- the tall man with the sunglasses and bald head.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1666442&postcount=6

Known as "Playground man" in the above photos.

OK, thanks a bunch. Has he been ruled out as an accomplice or accessory or perhaps, confidante, by the PL yet? Why has it taken so long for them to get any answers about Robert Murat and this bald guy, if anything they are withnesses!:mad:

[ThoughtFox]

I just found this - so crazy and scary, too! :(

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/16/burner-at-pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/

Police searching for Madeleine have sealed off an incinerator at one pet cemetery and are investigating two others.
The line of inquiry adds weight to fears her body will never be found.
Detectives first went to Creon Starlight Pet Cremation Service, near the town of Monchique, 30 miles from Praia da Luz, in July.
Officers have since examined another pet incinerator near Lisbon and one in Spain. Creon Starlight owner Evert Hoos, 61, told detectives a couple claiming to be Polish but with English accents arrived at his premises two weeks after Madeleine vanished.

He was asked to dispose of "two dogs" in black sacks which he incinerated without looking at them.

More at Link


from http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2170338,00.html

"Kate McCann, he added, at first said the back window was open and the blind raised, while other witnesses disagreed. He also described how a plastic barrier near their restaurant table would have 'prevented any clear view of events inside the flat' and that contradictory accounts had raised doubts among the investigators about their claim to have checked on Madeleine and the McCanns' two-year-old twins during dinner. . . the source also raised for the first time the possibility of prosecutors bringing lesser charges - 'notably, the abandonment or neglect of a child' - against them."

Thanks for that link! I've been waiting to hear that, and I'm not surprised.

[Shazza]

I just found this - so crazy and scary, too! :(

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/16/burner-at-pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/




Thanks for that link! I've been waiting to hear that, and I'm not surprised.

The guy at the pet cemetery should be able to give the police a description of the people who gave them the two black bags to incinerate.

[ThoughtFox]

Shazza: I know - he says in the article:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/16/burner-at-pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/

"Usually the people coming to me are upset and in tears but they weren't.

"It was also strange how they didn't ask me for the ashes. And I thought it odd that they spoke such excellent English. It was all just a bit strange.



I'm sure we'll hear more about this.

[Shazza]

Shazza: I know - he says in the article:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/16/burner-at-pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/



I'm sure we'll hear more about this.

Will be very interested to see what happens ThoughtFox.

[strach304]

The guy at the pet cemetery should be able to give the police a description of the people who gave them the two black bags to incinerate.


That was the obvious that jumped out at me too. As much as the McCanns have been shown you think he would have seen them by now and recognized them if so. Maybe he's alluding to it being someone tied to the McCanns? Probably just more sensationalism or the reporter would have asked that imo.

[Shazza]

That was the obvious that jumped out at me too. As much as the McCanns have been shown you think he would have seen them by now and recognized them if so. Maybe he's alluding to it being someone tied to the McCanns? Probably just more sensationalism or the reporter would have asked that imo.
The thing is this guy doesnt know what he incinerated, I wonder if forensics if shown where the ashes were thrown would be able to tell if they were from human or animal remains, I know it would probably be find dust, but there must be bone that they could test.

[strach304]

I thought that they could tell that also Shazza. Don't know if they clean those things out or whatever and maybe it was too long after the fact to find those specific ashes and anyway they'd be mixed in with all the others so I'm not so sure they could figure out anything. He said two weeks after the disappearance and LE came there in July, right? Something in the article was stated as the ashes being disposed of at the scrublands, whatever that is.

[CaliKid]

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=172609&version=1&template_id=38&parent_id=20

I didn't see anything about this anywhere:

LONDON: Millionaires who bankrolled the campaign to find Madeleine McCann are refusing to fund her parents’ legal defence, the Evening Standard revealed.

Two wealthy individuals who helped Kate and Gerry McCann in their global search for Madeleine now say they will not pledge any more cash at this time.

When contacted by the Standard they refused to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue. But one leading tycoon said that without knowing the facts about the Madeleine case, it would not be possible to pay for their legal team.

[Shazza]

I thought that they could tell that also Shazza. Don't know if they clean those things out or whatever and maybe it was too long after the fact to find those specific ashes and anyway they'd be mixed in with all the others so I'm not so sure they could figure out anything. He said two weeks after the disappearance and LE came there in July, right? Something in the article was stated as the ashes being disposed of at the scrublands, whatever that is.
Scrub lands is just bushy landscape, that is what I think it is, so they just scattered the ashes over bushy terrain, which would make it near impossible to find and test.

[BethyC]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/16/nmaddy316.xml

Good to know not everyone has bought into the PJ theories....

[Jdee]

I find it odd that the guy would toss a bag into an incenerator without looking inside it. If for no other reason to make sure the animals in it were indeed dead, or the bag did not contain some sort of aerosl cans that would explode if tossed into a fire.
Also when you cremete someone all the bone and teeth do not always completely incenerate.

[april4sky]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/16/nmaddy316.xml

Good to know not everyone has bought into the PJ theories....

I agree.
Especially as we are learning now that some of the PJ involved in Madeleine's case are themselves under suspicion of beating a confession out of a woman.

[colomom]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1609_maddiekate.shtml

SWOOP ON FURNACE IN CEMETRY

**New pictures of Maddie!**

[colomom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2459924.ece

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

Very interesting article....

[BloodshotEye]

A Pet Cemetary? Oh man. Grisley. Thanks Colomom for the link.

It is interesting to see how the PJ may be considering what might once have been called "off the wall-crazy scenarios". One just never knows.

Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

[docwho3]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2459924.ece

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

Very interesting article....Yes, I found it interesting too.

[christine2448]

A Pet Cemetary?

:hand: :hand: :silenced: :silenced: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :silenced: :silenced: :hand: :hand:

[colomom]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482027&in_page_id=1770

More of the newly released pictures....

I posted the new pics of Maddie on the Photos thread...if someone else wants to post the wedding and other pics of the parents...feel free...somehow my heart is just not in it today...

[Morag]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1609_maddiekate.shtml

SWOOP ON FURNACE IN CEMETRY

**New pictures of Maddie!**

And it also emerged last night that police are to use hi-tech satellite technology to plot the movements of the McCanns and their friends from mobile phone signals in Praia da Luz in the days after May 3.

I'm pretty sure that they have a more sophisticated mobile network in Europe than we have in the US. There could be an ongoing check of locations which have been pinpointed by the technology. What if there are multiple crematoria which have been checked? I don't like what this story makes me think.:(

colomom, I really appreciate your diligence at keeping all the information on this sad case so current. You, too, CaliKid.

[Morag]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19187/Madeleine-Body-thrown-into-the-sea-

Has anyone seen this timeline elsewhere? If this is accurate and not a misprint, this is something quite new.

The senior officer in the Policia Judiciaria admitted that the McCanns’ stance could destroy the case because detectives have “nothing concrete”. He admitted officers were still struggling to piece together events on the afternoon and evening of May 3. In particular, detectives have so far been unable to uncover the chain of events from 2pm until 10.41pm when the police were eventually called after Kate McCann said her daughter was missing.

Sorry about the double post.

[shrinkydink]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19187/Madeleine-Body-thrown-into-the-sea-

Has anyone seen this timeline elsewhere? If this is accurate and not a misprint, this is something quite new.



Sorry about the double post.

I've seen this in several papers, but then I have also seen papers that said this is not an official police statement, and that the police do not support this.

Shrinky

[BloodshotEye]

*Waving to Christine2448*
Gets curiouser and curiouser, doesn't it...

“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English). “Now I’m opening out like the largest telescope that ever was! Good-bye, feet!” (for when she looked down at her feet they seemed to be almost out of sight, they were getting so far off). - Author, Lewis Carroll: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: Chapter 2.

An amusing analogy for the ever-changing shape of news reports
http://www.ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/curiouser.htm
If you need a break, this is an amusing site. Scroll down to the drawing of Alice. If you click and drag your mouse on Alice, you can stretch and pull her shape.

[Morag]

I've seen this in several papers, but then I have also seen papers that said this is not an official police statement, and that the police do not support this.

Shrinky


You've seen other papers suggesting the timeline starts at 2PM? Do you recall where? I've been googling and reading many papers and haven't seen the 2PM time anywhere else.

[lakes]

Kates eyes.

I dont know if this has been picked up on here, in most of the clips on TV her eyes are telling us something.

I am a Life coach and also run Anger Management courses and i see them sort of eyes a lot, Regret.

This tells me one of two things when i see this in other, 1. They wish they had never done something.
2. they wish they had never been found out.

I still find it hard to split them, even the clients that are sent to me by court and tell me they regret what they did, i am sure there eyes just tell me they regret getting found out.

[BloodshotEye]

Morag: That will be fascinating to see, if they really can re-construct the movement of these people, on the night of May 3. How very interesting.

Believe me, I have tried to plot out these comings and goings, on paper. And for the life of me, the time/place at which some of these people claim to have been (in their statments), defies logic. I for one, would be grateful for some other "disinterested" party/piece of technology, that could objectively re-construct the movements of people that night. And if that technology exists, wouldn't they see some movement in/about the McCann apartment, such as the rear entry to the apartment?

And of course, my disclaimer: Yea, I totally know that news reports may be reporting inaccuracies. This is my opinion.

[philamena]

There is no way that whoever worked at that incinerator didn't look in those bags! Think about it! That would be the same as Crematorium employees putting bags/boxes into the incinerator without checking them first.:hand:
That just doesn't happen.

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=172609&version=1&template_id=38&parent_id=20

I didn't see anything about this anywhere:

LONDON: Millionaires who bankrolled the campaign to find Madeleine McCann are refusing to fund her parents’ legal defence, the Evening Standard revealed.

Two wealthy individuals who helped Kate and Gerry McCann in their global search for Madeleine now say they will not pledge any more cash at this time.

When contacted by the Standard they refused to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue. But one leading tycoon said that without knowing the facts about the Madeleine case, it would not be possible to pay for their legal team.

Who would want to be tied in with fraud?

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482027&in_page_id=1770

More of the newly released pictures....

I posted the new pics of Maddie on the Photos thread...if someone else wants to post the wedding and other pics of the parents...feel free...somehow my heart is just not in it today...

Releasing the PR machine in London is working. I have no desire to hear about how "wonderful" the McCanns supposedly are. I rather like the photo where Kate looked like the "crazed psychopath".
:twocents:

(Just trying to cheer you up...)

[T-Rex]

Could anyone explain to me, are all the "apartments" owned by the resort--sort of like a motel? Or are they individually owned and rented out, like a time-share? Is there a maid that comes into your room everyday and changes your sheets? A front desk? I'm just not real clear how "enclosed" an environment it was. Thanks!

[colomom]

Releasing the PR machine in London is working. I have no desire to hear about how "wonderful" the McCanns supposedly are. I rather like the photo where Kate looked like the "crazed psychopath".
:twocents:

(Just trying to cheer you up...)

:blowkiss: It worked!

Thank you...

[colomom]

Could anyone explain to me, are all the "apartments" owned by the resort--sort of like a motel? Or are they individually owned and rented out, like a time-share? Is there a maid that comes into your room everyday and changes your sheets? A front desk? I'm just not real clear how "enclosed" an environment it was. Thanks!

The resort is very large, some areas are owned by Mark Warner/Ocean Club and others are like timeshares, individually owen but managed by companies like Thomas Cook. The apartment that the McCanns rented was privately owned. We found this link that is a description of the exact apartment (before it was sold):

http://www.bookmyvillas.com/villadetails.asp?villaid=10002

No maids, no front desk (a travel manager that you would call for help). More like a timeshare.

The apartments were actually located outside the Mark Warner resort which is surrounded by a six foot wall and can only be entered by passing through a security building.

There are some really good pictures of the resort in the Pictures thread as well.

Hope that helps.

[SleuthMom]

Kate Mc Cann smiles after Church service:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482136&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

[christine2448]

Kate Mc Cann smiles after Church service:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482136&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow


The smile, not so important to me, a comment from a Serbian poster about the article explained exactly what I am feeling right now..I am guilty.


It is a pity that public attention has switched from the horror of a child's disappearence to the less certain theories about the parents' guilt.

Where is Maddie, I keep asking that question. Wish there were more energy being put on trying to figure that out.

[KOOL LOOK]

The smile, not so important to me, a comment from a Serbian poster about the article explained exactly what I am feeling right now..I am guilty.




Where is Maddie, I keep asking that question. Wish there were more energy being put on trying to figure that out.

I feel the same way. The same article stated the Mcccans are upset that about the police not searching for Maddy. I say, "I'm upset the parents have never searched for their daughter other than run out of the apartment and do a search of the block of street where they were vacationing."

[christine2448]

I feel the same way. The same article stated the Mcccans are upset that about the police not searching for Maddy. I say, "I'm upset the parents have never searched for their daughter other than run out of the apartment and do a search of the block of street where they were vacationing."

The parents should be looking too. Everyone should be looking for her. Maybe the parents aren't looking because they know where she is. Maybe not. If only we knew.

[KR2tonenow]

Kate Mc Cann smiles after Church service:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482136&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow


She looks horrible...all that stress is paying off.

[philamena]

I feel the same way. The same article stated the Mcccans are upset that about the police not searching for Maddy. I say, "I'm upset the parents have never searched for their daughter other than run out of the apartment and do a search of the block of street where they were vacationing."

Excuse my not knowing, but how do you know the McCann's didn't search for their daughter?
I swear, they went to church with the twins and some here think that's awful. The McCann's are damned if they do and damned if they don't with most the posters here.

[wtsn5]

Excuse my not knowing, but how do you know the McCann's didn't search for their daughter?
I swear, they went to church with the twins and some here think that's awful. The McCann's are damned if they do and damned if they don't with most the posters here.

I agree, it doesn't matter what the McCanns do people will find fault. Also would the police have allowed them to search. We really don't know what they did or didn't do or what they were told they were legally allowed to do.
Until all the facts have been presented I will presume innocent.

[KR2tonenow]

:blowkiss: It worked!

Thank you...

anytime:angel:

[T-Rex]

Thanks for the info on the apartment, Colomom!

[ceeaura]

Has anyone saw this article ??I posted it in the media link thread.I just had a question though...hasn't the sun really been more Pro-McCann??

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007421066,00.html

Snip:

'I'm thinking the unthinkable'


By OLIVER HARVEY
Chief Feature Writer
September 15, 2007

MY misgivings began with the lack of emotion shown by the McCanns in those first few days after Madeleine went missing.

No streaming tears, no trembling lips, no sobs of despair.
Now that unease has become an awful gnawing doubt.
It hurts me to say this, but I now fear something is amiss with Kate and Gerry’s story.

[Zelda]

Kate Mc Cann smiles after Church service:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482136&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

I will say that is a mighty big smile. Even Patsy Ramsey didn't smile for a long time.

[IrishMist]

I will say that is a mighty big smile. Even Patsy Ramsey didn't smile for a long time.


According to this article, neither has she!

From the above link:

"For over four months, her facial expression has been one of constant grief and pain.But Kate McCann has allowed herself an all too rare - but heartbreakingly slight - smile."

The pictures and videos that I've seen of her have given all appearances of stress, IMO.

[CaliKid]

Actually, if we're talking about public emotion, Kate McCann has smiled a lot more than this newspaper gives her credit for.

Excuse my not knowing, but how do you know the McCann's didn't search for their daughter?
I swear, they went to church with the twins and some here think that's awful. The McCann's are damned if they do and damned if they don't with most the posters here.

These are the links to newspapers of the first week. They discuss the search done for Madeleine.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1683351&postcount=28

[philamena]

....

The pictures and videos that I've seen of her have given all appearances of stress, IMO.
I just told my husband the same thing. I haven't seen any other smiling pictures of Ms. McCann.

Now if she was constantly photographed smiling like Scott Peterson did, then I'd be more worried.

[STEADFAST]

According to this article, neither has she!

From the above link:

"For over four months, her facial expression has been one of constant grief and pain.But Kate McCann has allowed herself an all too rare - but heartbreakingly slight - smile."

The pictures and videos that I've seen of her have given all appearances of stress, IMO.

I agree. I think Kate McCann has looked horribly stressed throughout.

[strach304]

I agree. I think Kate McCann has looked horribly stressed throughout.

I agree, I thought so too. Caught a few of Gerry not looking so hot either.

[Bobbisangel]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this somewhere else already, but is relates the Joana Cipriano case to Madeleine McCann:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283987,00.html

Shrinky


This article makes a lot of sense to me. Really makes me wonder too.

[Bobbisangel]

I thought that they could tell that also Shazza. Don't know if they clean those things out or whatever and maybe it was too long after the fact to find those specific ashes and anyway they'd be mixed in with all the others so I'm not so sure they could figure out anything. He said two weeks after the disappearance and LE came there in July, right? Something in the article was stated as the ashes being disposed of at the scrublands, whatever that is.


I thought the owner of the pet cemetary said "they didn't even ask for the ashes and that surprised me."
.................................................. .................................................. .......................

"It was also strange how they didn't ask me for the ashes. And I thought it odd that they spoke such excellent English. It was all just a bit strange.

[Bobbisangel]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2459924.ece

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

Very interesting article....


It is an interesting article and I tend to agree with everything that was said.

[poco]

Just wondering - in one of the links up there, it is said that:

In defense of the PJ, I have to say that it was the McCanns themselves who insisted that Madeleine had been kidnapped. They were positive of it, and early on it became the major focus of the investigation.

But somewhere else, the other day, I read, that the McCann's said they had no qualms about leaving the children alone in the apartment as this was such a SAFE area.

Why would the McCann's immediately think it was a kidnapping if they felt they were in such a safe area???? Why not the possibility that she just wandered off?

[Shazza]

I thought the owner of the pet cemetary said "they didn't even ask for the ashes and that surprised me."
.................................................. .................................................. .......................

"It was also strange how they didn't ask me for the ashes. And I thought it odd that they spoke such excellent English. It was all just a bit strange.
Hi Bobbisangel, they didnt ask for the ashes they wanted to them scattered in the scubland and they stayed until it was done.

[ThoughtFox]

Just wondering - in one of the links up there, it is said that:

In defense of the PJ, I have to say that it was the McCanns themselves who insisted that Madeleine had been kidnapped. They were positive of it, and early on it became the major focus of the investigation.

But somewhere else, the other day, I read, that the McCann's said they had no qualms about leaving the children alone in the apartment as this was such a SAFE area.

Why would the McCann's immediately think it was a kidnapping if they felt they were in such a safe area???? Why not the possibility that she just wandered off?
An excellent question, Poco. :clap: There is a contradiction there.

[ny_]

Re: the rareness of the smiles (note, smiling doesn't necessarily make them guilty, but aside from the ones around the twins, it strikes me as odd). Maybe it's some sort of nervous reaction?

Smiles:
http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070525/070525_McCann_hmed_4p.standard.jpg

http://sosmaddie.dhblogs.be/media/02/00/f27b9ba8f6846cea2661a27303b7d52f.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/09/13/nmaddy613.jpg

This was what I found with a quick Google search. I know there are others I recall seeing, including one where they're both smiling over the presentation of a tshirt with Madeleine's photo on it.

As for these, I wasn't quite sure if they were smiles:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/mccann21209_468x327.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/mccannLL1209_468x736.jpg

Edited to add, some of the other photos I'd recalled seeing were posted by Colomom over in the Pictures thread, particularly the ones in posts 6 & 25 on there:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53137

The tshirt one in particular strikes (no. 25 in that thread) strikes me as odd. You're holding a tshirt with your missing daughter's image on it, why would you be grinning ear to ear like that? Unless it was a novelty shirt the family posed with before she went missing?

[SleuthMom]

She looks horrible...all that stress is paying off.

Actually I was going to comment that the "smile" does not look natural at all to me. She looks very stressed out or maybe it is just not a good pic (which photographers sometimes take on purpose)

[Texana]

Has anyone saw this article ??I posted it in the media link thread.I just had a question though...hasn't the sun really been more Pro-McCann??

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007421066,00.html

Snip:

'I'm thinking the unthinkable'


By OLIVER HARVEY
Chief Feature Writer
September 15, 2007

MY misgivings began with the lack of emotion shown by the McCanns in those first few days after Madeleine went missing.

No streaming tears, no trembling lips, no sobs of despair.
Now that unease has become an awful gnawing doubt.
It hurts me to say this, but I now fear something is amiss with Kate and Gerry’s story.


All the British papers I've seen have been pro-McCann. Some like the Daily Mirror much more so.

[ZaraW]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482126&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

The article noted above contradicts much of what has been said. What if the conspiracy lies not in making the parents look innocent but in making them look guilty?

[christine2448]

All the British papers I've seen have been pro-McCann. Some like the Daily Mirror much more so.

I was thinking about this, what is the concensus over there, are there polls in the news? How do the locals feel about the McCanns and what do they think happened?

[ceeaura]

I was thinking about this, what is the concensus over there, are there polls in the news? How do the locals feel about the McCanns and what do they think happened?


I have been wondering the same thing!I saw one poll in one of the papers over in Britian and it was like 49% against the McCanns to 51% for.Not sure of the exact question.I did read rumblings on the mirror forums that they didn't think it was being a fair poll because it didn't change and If I am not mistaken it was not up for very long maybe just a day or two.

I would be interested to know the concensus over there in a fair unbiased way.

[Texana]

Here's another article mentioning poll figures:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22427931-2703,00.html

[blaize]

All the British papers I've seen have been pro-McCann. Some like the Daily Mirror much more so.

It's not that they're necessarily all pro McCann's, it's more that people think that the way the case is being handled is a mess and that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny in the UK or in the US for that matter.

For example from today's Daily Mail (17th Sept 2007), these are being cited as some of the police blunders.

<Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482126&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)>

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_03/blundersDM1609_468x745.jpg

[Texana]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482126&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

The article noted above contradicts much of what has been said. What if the conspiracy lies not in making the pare