No concrete evidence against K & G

[BethyC]

This is the latest from the PJ today. Also -- it appears there is only a two hour window (6:00pm was the last time Maddy was seen in public after eating ice cream with the vacationing group) of time in which she had the accident/was murdered and hidden.

[SleuthMom]

Geez, i would hate these two to get away with this! :(

[colomom]

This is the latest from the PJ today. Also -- it appears there is only a two hour window (6:00pm was the last time Maddy was seen in public after eating ice cream with the vacationing group) of time in which she had the accident/was murdered and hidden.

The times have always been, and still are, in question. There were reports of a CCTV tape of her eating a "snack" with Gerry and Russell O'Brien at 6:30PM (this has never been validated). Also there have been many reports that the parents arrived at the Tapas restaurant at 8:45PM (stated by members of the group and the staff).

I personally believe that the CCTV rumor is false and the 8:45PM arrival time is accurate. Therefore, the timelines that show the children being picked up at the creche at (normal closing time) 5:30PM (see: http://www.markwarner.co.uk/why-choose-us/sun/tons-of-fun-for-kids) and probably taken back to the apartment to have tea and prepare for bed, and then Gerry played tennis (it was reported that's why they were late to dinner) with the McCann's arriving at the Tapas at 8:45PM, seems like the most likely scenario.

So, my window is 3 hours and 15 minutes....

Pure speculation of course.

[colomom]

This is the latest from the PJ today. Also -- it appears there is only a two hour window (6:00pm was the last time Maddy was seen in public after eating ice cream with the vacationing group) of time in which she had the accident/was murdered and hidden.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/mixed+messages+in+mccann+probe/805177

~snippet~

"A Portuguese newspaper reported that a high-ranking officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) - Portugal's CID - said the evidence was not even strong enough to prove whether Madeleine is dead.

It is now 135 days since the the four-year-old vanished from her bed in her family's holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.

The unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper: "We have nothing concrete. There are a lot of indications, but without more elements it's impossible to determine what happened in those four vital hours in the case (between 6pm and 10pm on the night Madeleine vanished).

"Even if the blood and traces gathered in the car or in the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent to the little girl's DNA, that wouldn't prove anything.

"Those elements could only confirm - and that doesn't even happen - that the little girl was in the apartment (which is obvious) and in the car.

"In either of the cases nothing would prove homicide, just that the body of the little girl had been transferred in the vehicle."

~continues~

I think the word "concrete" is a bit misleading. Seems like, in this context, concrete means absolute proof. Many a case has been tried without absolute proof.

IMHO.

[Texana]

I think that term "concrete" is either inaccurate translation or a slightly "off" word in English chosen by the officer. Typical of the two language issues here.

We have a very international group of ballet parents (Chinese, Brazilian, French-Canadian, Argentinian, Venezuelan, and New Yorker, LOL) and just sitting and talking with them last night, I can recall many times there was a word pause, or stop to correct and re-word something.

As for the time line, I have no problem seeing that even two hours would be enough time. As well, the McCanns showed up at the restaurant at 8:45. Anybody showing up later would have had additional time to help them.

[christine2448]

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/mixed+messages+in+mccann+probe/805177

~snippet~

"A Portuguese newspaper reported that a high-ranking officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) - Portugal's CID - said the evidence was not even strong enough to prove whether Madeleine is dead.

It is now 135 days since the the four-year-old vanished from her bed in her family's holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.

The unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper: "We have nothing concrete. There are a lot of indications, but without more elements it's impossible to determine what happened in those four vital hours in the case (between 6pm and 10pm on the night Madeleine vanished).

"Even if the blood and traces gathered in the car or in the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent to the little girl's DNA, that wouldn't prove anything.

"Those elements could only confirm - and that doesn't even happen - that the little girl was in the apartment (which is obvious) and in the car.

"In either of the cases nothing would prove homicide, just that the body of the little girl had been transferred in the vehicle."

~continues~

I think the word "concrete" is a bit misleading. Seems like, in this context, concrete means absolute proof. Many a case has been tried without absolute proof.

IMHO.


I was just coming to post this

PORTUGUESE police appeared to take a step back from charging Madeleine McCann's parents yesterday after a senior officer said they had "nothing concrete'' to implicate them in her disappearance.


Detectives may be depending on Kate and Gerry McCann making a confession in order to prove their suspicions, a Portuguese newspaper reported.The couple were declared formal suspects in the case exactly a week ago, and are now back in Britain waiting to learn whether they will be charged.
A “high-ranking” officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) – Portugal's criminal investigation department – said the evidence was not even strong enough to prove whether Madeleine is dead.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/police-confess-they-have-lsquonothingrsquo-on-the-mccanns-1081001.html

[KOOL LOOK]

This is the latest from the PJ today. Also -- it appears there is only a two hour window (6:00pm was the last time Maddy was seen in public after eating ice cream with the vacationing group) of time in which she had the accident/was murdered and hidden.

What I don't understand, though, is how can we use this as truth, evidence or proof, but we can't use anything else being reported as the same?

See, this is where I get confused. I go along with colomom's post here about the timeline. It's as good as we have to stand on for the time being.

I believe she was killed then hidden for those days then moved.

I'm also leaning towards her body being in the ocean, but more so somewhere near the church, if not on the property somewhere. The timeline shows there's plenty of time to kill her in this one and colomom's post.

[AfterMidnight]

Geez, i would hate these two to get away with this! :(

I can't understand why you're so adamant they are the killers. Do you have any proof? It seems like you hate them for some reason I cannot fathom and want them drawn and quartered, evidence of guilt or not.

Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so. If so, can you tell me why you want them punished so badly with no proof of guilt?

[Brefie]

What I don't understand, though, is how can we use this as truth, evidence or proof, but we can't use anything else being reported as the same?

See, this is where I get confused. I go along with colomom's post here about the timeline. It's as good as we have to stand on for the time being.

I believe she was killed then hidden for those days then moved.

I'm also leaning towards her body being in the ocean, but more so somewhere near the church, if not on the property somewhere. The timeline shows there's plenty of time to kill her in this one and colomom's post.

Because this quote actually has a PERSON behind it. It has been ACTUALLY quoted word for word around the media as a SENIOR DETECTIVE as the 'author'.
THAT'S the difference. What I don't understand, is how come the 'guilty's' among us only ever question reports that suggest the McCann's are possibly innocent?
For crying out loud, some had no problem taking for gospel that they were swingers with an uncontrollable child that they abused and left alone EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. Madeleine only had to be referred to as a 'handful' before it's believed she was completely uncontrollable and has autism to boot. Now, for those believing she was out of control are trying to hang Kate for possibly using the word 'hysterical'.

[Brefie]

I can't understand why you're so adamant they are the killers. Do you have any proof? It seems like you hate them for some reason I cannot fathom and want them drawn and quartered, evidence of guilt or not.

Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so. If so, can you tell me why you want them punished so badly with no proof of guilt?

Precisely!!! Some have formed the 'guilty' opinion from media reports alone....but the media suggests there is no evidence, suddenly the parents must be 'getting away with it'

[Rino]

Because this quote actually has a PERSON behind it. It has been ACTUALLY quoted word for word around the media as a SENIOR DETECTIVE as the 'author'.
THAT'S the difference. What I don't understand, is how come the 'guilty's' among us only ever question reports that suggest the McCann's are possibly innocent? .

From the article:

One senior officer .....reported that a high-ranking officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) - Portugal's CID .......unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper.......One "credible" theory of investigators


Brefie, I don't see this as any more truthstworthy than what some have called gossip. There is not one named official in the story therefore not one shred of "proof" to it legitimacy.

[Brefie]

From the article:

One senior officer .....reported that a high-ranking officer in the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) - Portugal's CID .......unnamed PJ officer told the 24 Horas newspaper.......One "credible" theory of investigators


Brefie, I don't see this as any more truthstworthy than what some have called gossip. There is not one named official in the story therefore not one shred of "proof" to it legitimacy.

Thought I saw a name, perhaps not...couldn't find one just now.

Anyhoo, for me it's slightly more legitimate. I am not going to try to shove down anyone's throat.


(ETA: not that you said I was, or anything! :) )

[CaliKid]

I can't understand why you're so adamant they are the killers. Do you have any proof? It seems like you hate them for some reason I cannot fathom and want them drawn and quartered, evidence of guilt or not.

Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so. If so, can you tell me why you want them punished so badly with no proof of guilt?

If the McCanns are guilty of harming Madeleine, I don't want to see them get away with it either. Every person, especially a child, who has been harmed by someone else deserves to have the perp caught and punished. Some of us are just more convinced of the parents' guilt than others.

Please stop referring to people who disagree with the McCanns as "hating" them. I don't hate them. I hate what I think they did to Madeleine but not them as people.

[KOOL LOOK]

If the McCanns are guilty of harming Madeleine, I don't want to see them get away with it either. Every person, especially a child, who has been harmed by someone else deserves to have the perp caught and punished. Some of us are just more convinced of the parents' guilt than others.

Please stop referring to people who disagree with the McCanns as "hating" them. I don't hate them. I hate what I think they did to Madeleine but not them as people.


Thank you calikid. I just posted on fencesitters and I felt I had to keep defending my feelings and saying I dont' hate Kate.

It got started over there on that thread by a few and it needs to stop.

[STEADFAST]

It seems to me that most of the so-called evidence is just falling apart.

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: It could be anyone's'

' British forensic experts have concluded the fragments said to be Madeleine's could belong to any number of people who had come into contact with the silver Renault Scenic.

This demolishes earlier claims that the hairs would prove the McCanns had hidden Madeleine's body in the car after killing her in their holiday apartment.

The fragments found did not even allow the scientists to establish the sex or age of the individual. " (more at link)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

[KOOL LOOK]

It seems to me that most of the so-called evidence is just falling apart.

(more at link)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770


When did hair forensics provide sex and age of someone?

[STEADFAST]

When did hair forensics provide sex and age of someone?

There's more info at the link. Don't know how anyone would expect to get an age estimate from hair -- it does seem to change somewhat as people get older, though, but don't know if that could help. Sex determination? Maybe from DNA in a follicle. The quote is from a British scientist, not from me.

[CaliKid]

At this point, with the way the British media has bent over backwards to defend the McCanns and stopped all open discussion of what may or may not have happened to Madeleine (including the way the parents left the kids alone) I trust very little of what they have to say.

[philamena]

Because this quote actually has a PERSON behind it. It has been ACTUALLY quoted word for word around the media as a SENIOR DETECTIVE as the 'author'.
THAT'S the difference. What I don't understand, is how come the 'guilty's' among us only ever question reports that suggest the McCann's are possibly innocent?
For crying out loud, some had no problem taking for gospel that they were swingers with an uncontrollable child that they abused and left alone EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. Madeleine only had to be referred to as a 'handful' before it's believed she was completely uncontrollable and has autism to boot. Now, for those believing she was out of control are trying to hang Kate for possibly using the word 'hysterical'.

;):clap::clap:

Ditto Brefie!

[SleuthMom]

At this point, with the way the British media has bent over backwards to defend the McCanns and stopped all open discussion of what may or may not have happened to Madeleine (including the way the parents left the kids alone) I trust very little of what they have to say.

You're so right and it's so odd because British media is known to grill anyone but for some reason they put the Mc Canns under their wing.

[Elphaba]

There is so much coming out surrounding this case that it is hard to tell what is fact, fiction, and speculation. So... I've decided that unless a legitimate name is printed as the person quoted on their info and is directly involved in the case, then I will take what is said with a grain of salt. Yes, people do leak things, but this case reports to have so many leaks that it is becoming a sinking ship in an ocean of untruths, half-truths and what might-be-the-truth-but-then-again-maybe-nots. It is crazy... I don't think I have ever followed a case like this before where so much has been reported from so many different angles and so many unidentifiable sources. It is so frustrating because we all just want one thing: that child to be found and justice brought forth on those that caused her disappearance.

[marrigotti]

There is so much coming out surrounding this case that it is hard to tell what is fact, fiction, and speculation. So... I've decided that unless a legitimate name is printed as the person quoted on their info and is directly involved in the case, then I will take what is said with a grain of salt. Yes, people do leak things, but this case reports to have so many leaks that it is becoming a sinking ship in an ocean of untruths, half-truths and what might-be-the-truth-but-then-again-maybe-nots. It is crazy... I don't think I have ever followed a case like this before where so much has been reported from so many different angles and so many unidentifiable sources. It is so frustrating because we all just want one thing: that child to be found and justice brought forth on those that caused her disappearance.

My sentiments exactly. News reports that at first seemed well established and supported by facts (such as the DNA reports or the neighbor's interview) are then labelled as having no real evidentiary value or untrue. It reminds me of the Holloway case, and I am truly wondering if it will ever be solved. I honestly can't see what value there would be in accusing without evidence, but law enforcement now says it has no concrete evidence. Go figure.

[Jeana (DP)]

Can we just settle down her a little bit??? EVERYONE here is entitled to their opinion. This is not a court of law. Should the parents be arrested and tried, the information that comes out during their trial is what the jury will be allowed to consider when the time comes. In the meantime, ALL things will be and CAN be discussed at this forum without the post police coming down on people's heads. If you have any problems with that, perhaps you need to take a small break in the action here.

[Elphaba]

I would like to say that my post wasn't talking about people here posting... it was talking about the media reports. I respect what my fellow WS'rs have to say... we are all in the same collective: wanting justice for this little girl. I was just venting my frustrations about the media and the many many conflicting reports.

[ceeaura]

I would like to say that my post wasn't talking about people here posting... it was talking about the media reports. I respect what my fellow WS'rs have to say... we are all in the same collective: wanting justice for this little girl. I was just venting my frustrations about the media and the many many conflicting reports.

I totally got what you meant by your post Elphaba :) I think you said it very well also :)

[SleuthMom]

It seems like you hate them for some reason I cannot fathom and want them drawn and quartered, evidence of guilt or not. Hate them? This has nothing to do with hate. I strongly believe they are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance and it is MY OPINION. Nothing or nobody can take away that from me. If so, can you tell me why you want them punished so badly with no proof of guilt? They are GUILTY of negligence so far and I am AWAITING for the day charges will be brought up against them for that alone. I trust the authorities will find enough evidence to charge them with regards to Maddie's disappearance. Again, MY VIEW, MY OPINION. ;)