How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

[shrinkydink]

I would like to say the main reason I mentioned income level in another thread is that someone else said that she had no empathy for KM because she had "more resources", as if that was an excuse for not having empathy for the woman.

I do think that people tend to believe that more money buys more security than it really does. Life is much more complicated than that. I think having less money but an excellent support system is better than tons of money and a really awful support system. (Anyone seen Britney lately, with her 750,000 a month? Well, there's an example of what I mean.) Money can't buy trust, love or honesty. KM, if she really was stressed to her limits, as was implied earlier, is as worthy of sympathy as a mother with less money, I believe. That was the whole money argument from my side.

I agree with many here that the McCann family has not made a good public impression at all. They do seem to be amazingly inept in the public eye. This might because they are cold-blooded, or it might be because they are just stupid. Then again, they might be simply clueless as to how the media chews people up & spits them out again. Few of us are used to the whole world watching our every move, and I just think it might be harder to manage than we try to pretend.

I think my main point in all my posts today is that so many people seem willing to judge very harshly on almost no evidence at all. Yes, they were really stupid to leave their children alone like that. Not to burst anyone's bubble, but that sort of thing is sadly very, very common in Europe. I know lots of people who are otherwise what I consider conscientious parents who go to resorts and do the same thing. People in Switzerland are, in fact, told by the schools that children Madeleine's age MUST be allowed to walk to school alone, since that builds character. We have been told we are bad parents if we walk a four-year-old to school, because this is stunting their emotional growth. This was such a big issue it was front page news in a Zurich paper recently. Meanwhile, a five-year-old girl's body was found this week. Her case is being investigated for links to Madeleine's case, since the suspect was living in Spain with his wife before he came back here to kidnap the Swiss girl.

Anyway, here it is a different mentality, and I feel this is being ignored by people commenting on this case. Ideas of safety for children are not the same, no matter how wrong this may seem or be.

I am known as the crazy, over-protective American because I won't do that. - leave my child alone, let her walk alone. I think most people here are grossly underestimating just how true it is when Kate Mccan says they really didn't think it was that big a deal to leave their children alone when they were sleeping. They had done it all week, by their own admission. One more night, they would have been home, and none of us ever would have heard of them. I have Swedish, Swiss and Italian neighbors who do this all the time, still. To them, this case is too rare to worry about. As they put it, your child is more likely to be hit twice by lightening than to be abducted by a stranger, so you're crazy to worry so much about it.Again, another mentality.

I am not defending what I also think is irresponsible behavior. I do think, though, that people are ready to hang KM when no one knows what really happened that night. If her greatest crime was leaving her children alone that night, then I think KM has paid the price already. What could be worse than to lose your child forever like that, just because you did what everyone else was doing? All her friends left their children alone that night, too, but they got to take their kids back to England. Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't.

I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone else here. What I find appalling is how quickly people are willing to blame a mother based on what even the police say is no substantial evidence at all. Show me some evidence, and I'm ready to change my mind. I don't see anything yet, though, but a modern day witch hunt. If it weren't, people would be baying for the father's blood just as much as the mother's.

Shrinky

[ceeaura]

shrinkydink,
Long post there.If it seems I am rambling and not making much sense I am sorry I am sick :sick: .
There are quite a few people who do think Gerry is more to blame than Kate.If you go back and read the threads before this was made a Featured case discussion you will see that.

I think the social status is playing a big role in this case.If Gerry and Kate had been on welfare(or whatever its called in other places) they would have been brought up on charges of neglect.
*There is a video on youtube of a brit who says this much better than I did and I can't find it.I will keep looking and post it later*

In it being her greatest crime that she only left the children alone,well cause has effect and hers and Gerrys cause led to the effect of their 3 year old daughter going missing.

I don't hate them but I am holding them responsible.I have stated that I think they are both or one guility along with OBrien.As I stated earlier ,Maybe they didn't have anything to do physicaly with Madeleine being missing.Could be all on OBrien and possibly Murat.

If Europe is as lax as you are stating and its blowing my mind because of how easy it is to travel from country to country and with the pedo rings ect then I hope that now people there who have heard about this case will be more protective over their children.

[shrinkydink]

shrinkydink

If Europe is as lax as you are stating and its blowing my mind because of how easy it is to travel from country to country and with the pedo rings ect then I hope that now people there who have heard about this case will be more protective over their children.

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

Shrinky

[LinasK]

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.


Shrinky

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.

[shrinkydink]

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors are others... That's why people hire babysitters.

I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

Shrinky

[Glow]

I understand your point shrinky. I live in the deep south (US) and it is common here for kids to walk home from school alone and be home alone from a very young age. I have spent a good bit of time out west in Wyoming and there it is very common to see loaded guns propped up against the wall in the living room and in the trucks right next to the car seat. All good parents aren't located in one geographical location they are spread out everywhere as are the bad ones. People doing things one way in one area where it wouldn't be done that way in another should definitely be factored in when we look at the big picture.

[shrinkydink]

I understand your point shrinky. I live in the deep south (US) and it is common here for kids to walk home from school alone and be home alone from a very young age. I have spent a good bit of time out west in Wyoming and there it is very common to see loaded guns propped up against the wall in the living room and in the trucks right next to the car seat. All good parents aren't located in one geographical location they are spread out everywhere as are the bad ones. People doing things one way in one area where it wouldn't be done that way in another should definitely be factored in when we look at the big picture.

Not only do you understand - your quote is from Madeleine L'Engle. Thank you for both!

Shrinky

[SleuthMom]

Yes, they were really stupid to leave their children alone like that. Not to burst anyone's bubble, but that sort of thing is sadly very, very common in Europe. I know lots of people who are otherwise what I consider conscientious parents who go to resorts and do the same thing. People in Switzerland are, in fact, told by the schools that children Madeleine's age MUST be allowed to walk to school alone, since that builds character. We have been told we are bad parents if we walk a four-year-old to school, because this is stunting their emotional growth. This was such a big issue it was front page news in a Zurich paper recently. Meanwhile, a five-year-old girl's body was found this week. Her case is being investigated for links to Madeleine's case, since the suspect was living in Spain with his wife before he came back here to kidnap the Swiss girl. Anyway, here it is a different mentality, and I feel this is being ignored by people commenting on this case. Ideas of safety for children are not the same, no matter how wrong this may seem or be. It sounds almost like because it is "common" in Europe somehow (in this case) must be justified, I do not think so at all. Her "mentality" as you call it resulted in the DISAPPEARANCE of her three year old child, let's PLEASE not forget that. If her greatest crime was leaving her children alone that night, then I think KM has paid the price already. Really? It seems like you see her as a "victim" when the only victim I see here is Madeleine whose because of irresponsible parents ended up...well...who knows where! The Mc Canns will ONLY pay for their negligence when they are charged for negligence. Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't. Sure but in this case we have a MISSING child, are you going to make an eye blind there? Yes, people make DUMB choices DAILY but when those choices AFFECT OTHER people, in this case a toddler they MUST be held accountable.

[colomom]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1264930,00.html

I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?

[SleuthMom]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a women's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered. Absolutely! And let me add that, THAT fact alone sometimes goes beyond cultural issues.

[colomom]

I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

Shrinky

Oh, I know you didn't mean play with matches....you meant use matches, right?

Any matches around a three year old is a receipe for disaster...IMHO.

[CaliKid]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1264930,00.html

I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?

Madeleine was a very much loved little girl. It's obvious her grandparents dote on her. And it's sad when you contrast how the Healys feel about their granddaughter with what her parents have said.

[eleven]

I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

Shrinky

Ok, I can understand allowing a 3 year old to "help" cook, and use scissors (safety scissors)....but you have friends who allow their 3 year olds to PLAY WITH MATCHES????? Are you serious????

Please tell your friends to make sure their fire insurance is in effect, because they will need it. Jeez....I'm sorry, but IMO, your friends parenting skills leave alot to be desired!

ETA: "Playing" or "Using" matches is just semantics. Any 3 year old who is allowed access to matches needs to have their parents analyzed, IMO.

[spacecowboy]

I'm in the UK I would now way leave my children alone, my youngest son has never slept without me in the room let alone out the house. It really isn't the usual thing to do in the UK either. Most people I know cant believe how stupid they were in leaving them alone.
I really can't see why they just couldn't of eaten dinner together as a family.
I am sure had this of been a smoking single young chav mum on benefits her name would've been dragged through the mud from day 1. Instead it's been kind of frowned on to criticise them too much...until now that is!

[Texana]

snip from shrinky: Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't.

No, there are many people out here who don't get to pretend that other people are getting away with dumb choices.

That would be those of us who work with children and have to "clean up" the messes the parents make. There are literally thousands of people in various occupations from emergency room nurses to teachers to sheriff's deputies whose jobs day in and day out consist of trying to help children in various ways who are in difficult or even traumatic situations because of choices their parents made.

Safety is obviously different in different places--you might not have to worry about pedophiles snatching a child in one place, you might have to watch out for crocodiles. In each part of the world, there are unique and common dangers to all children. The McCanns as doctors would have had experience with children's injuries, from their medical training. They might have reasonably assumed no one would snatch their child. But they were unreasonable to assume that two year olds and a 3 1/2 year old could not manage to injure themselves in some way when left alone, especially if it is true that the door was unlocked. Children wandering off and drowning in pools certainly isn't unique to my part of the world.

I'll go on record saying I don't have much empathy for the parents, either. I don't think Kate and Gerry paid the ultimate price, I think Madeleine did. One thing I see with Kate and Gerry that I also with parents who continually sabotage their children's wellbeing or safety is denial or an inability to admit responsibility. Kate and Gerry are still insisting that they were only 50 yards away, and Kate referred to their decision as a mistake "if you can call it that."

That goes beyond a temporary "dumb choice, it goes to a deep-rooted inability to change or evolve, if you will, in parenting. That is the attitude I saw in parents whose children had been sexually abused and yet still allowed relative strange men ("friends from work") to sleep over on their couches, in their underwear. Households with 5 adults present, but where no one can manage to wake up in time to get the children to school on time, ever.

After awhile, I stopped feeling sorry for parents like that.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm getting alerts on this thread. First of all try to consider that we've got posters that may not necessarily speak English as a first language. Secondly, all of you should be familiar with the Terms of Service that you agreed to when you joined this forum. If you need to refresh your memories, please do so, but getting too personal is only going to get you banned.

[eleven]

I really can't see why they just couldn't of eaten dinner together as a family.


Ya, I don't get that either. I mean, obviously it was supposed to be a "family vacation" because they took the kids with them. If they wanted soooo much privacy and time away from the children, why wouldn't they have just left them in the UK with a nanny or relative?

And, I agree--it is Madeleine who has paid the ultimate price for their inability to parent in an effective and responsible manner.

[southcitymom]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.


I hope with all my heart that this isn't true because if it is, my children are hosed!

[Texana]

There is a tradition in Great Britain of children having dinner alone/earlier than parents, especially in the upper classes. But within that tradition, it would be more normal to have Nanny come along on vacations to help continue that.

[LinasK]

There is a tradition in Great Britain of children having dinner alone/earlier than parents, especially in the upper classes. But within that tradition, it would be more normal to have Nanny come along on vacations to help continue that.

Ugh! Sounds like something out of Mary Poppins! But Mary Poppins did get the parents, especially the father more involved with the children by the end of the movie.

[southcitymom]

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.

These are my thoughts as well. If I ever considered leaving my 3 children ages 3 and under in a room by themselves while I went for dinner, kidnapping wouldn't be the danger that would come to my mind - I probably would never even think that there was a real chance that they might be kidnapped.

But I would worry that they might get into some sort of mischief that could harm them terribly. And I would worry just as much that one of them might wake up - sad or scared or from a bad dream - and need the loving arms of a parent to usher them back to sleep. Can you imagine how terrifying it would be for a 2 or 3 year old to wake up crying and not be able to find Mom and Dad? The thought of that just breaks my heart.

I'm all about independent children and no one would ever accuse me of being overprotective, but these are 2 and 3 year olds, for God's sake!!!! Even considering the cultural divide, it fails to make sense to me.

[colomom]

I hope with all my heart that this isn't true because if it is, my children are hosed!

I can tell by your post that you are probably....WRONG!!!

:D

[colomom]

I'm in the UK I would now way leave my children alone, my youngest son has never slept without me in the room let alone out the house. It really isn't the usual thing to do in the UK either. Most people I know cant believe how stupid they were in leaving them alone.
I really can't see why they just couldn't of eaten dinner together as a family.
I am sure had this of been a smoking single young chav mum on benefits her name would've been dragged through the mud from day 1. Instead it's been kind of frowned on to criticise them too much...until now that is!


Me too spacecowboy...my kids were always soooo close to me, at all times, I began to think I was paranoid. But, I know now, looking back, I was careful, cautious, concerned and very much in love with them. I knew I could not live without them. Maybe, I am selfish, I try hard to give them appropriate freedoms but, I will hold them as close as I can, they are my everything.

Also, I want you to know that I really believe that most of us in America DO NOT believe that the McCanns "relaxed" parenting style is considered "normal" in your country. Parenting is so much an instinct that I believe that we are very much alike everywhere in the world. I really believe more people are paranoid like me...

Hurrah for the paranoid!!!!!

[hoppyfrog]

Texana, I thought your post above (#15) was excellent.

Shrinkydink, I thought your post that started this thread was excellent too.

Hoppy

[marrigotti]

Ya, I don't get that either. I mean, obviously it was supposed to be a "family vacation" because they took the kids with them. If they wanted soooo much privacy and time away from the children, why wouldn't they have just left them in the UK with a nanny or relative?

And, I agree--it is Madeleine who has paid the ultimate price for their inability to parent in an effective and responsible manner.

Wasn't Kate's mother there? I wonder what role, if any, she played in the babysitting department.

[Texana]

Ugh! Sounds like something out of Mary Poppins! But Mary Poppins did get the parents, especially the father more involved with the children by the end of the movie.

yes, which made the not-so-subtle point that not being with your children mean missing out on so many wonderful things.

If the McCanns were really used to that tradition, Nanny would have been an integral part of the family and come along on vacation.

[Texana]

Wasn't Kate's mother there? I wonder what role, if any, she played in the babysitting department.

Thank you Hoppy, I like your screen name!

Marigotti, the mother present was the mother of one of the other "Tapas 9" people, Diana Webster, mother of Dr. Fiona Payne, wife of David Payne. The Paynes reportedly used the baby monitor system to listen in on their child(ren.)

The McCann children were in the "creche" or daycare during the day, but at night were with their parents.

[Texana]

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

Shrinky

I know Shrinky, what you mean by the attitudes people have. When we lived in a certain city in Texas that had lower crime rates overall, every time there was a serious crime they would interview the residents of that neighborhood on television, and they would always say, "I thought this was a NICE place!"

It was as if they felt themselves to be immune from crime because they lived in a "nice place." They seemed outraged that they were having to deal with nasty crime. Once our neighborhood had a spate of burglaries overnight from cars, and all the idiots who left laptops and purses in their cars in the driveways--some even unlocked--were quite convinced that the thiefs must have been dreadful outsiders because of course, we lived in a "nice place."

I was disappointed that the McCanns did not take the line of emphasizing that "no child is safe alone these days" instead of "it was just like being in the garden." If Madeleine was indeed kidnapped, in that small of a time window, then we must do a better job world-wide of convincing people that there are no "nice places" anymore.

And even if she was not, because truly, I don't believe in nice places anymore.

[strach304]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1264930,00.html

I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?


My sister and I would be a total contradiction for that opinion. :D Of course we were mothered differently by the same mother so maybe that explains it.

[Schmerty_Jones]

I know Shrinky, what you mean by the attitudes people have. When we lived in a certain city in Texas that had lower crime rates overall, every time there was a serious crime they would interview the residents of that neighborhood on television, and they would always say, "I thought this was a NICE place!"

It was as if they felt themselves to be immune from crime because they lived in a "nice place." They seemed outraged that they were having to deal with nasty crime. Once our neighborhood had a spate of burglaries overnight from cars, and all the idiots who left laptops and purses in their cars in the driveways--some even unlocked--were quite convinced that the thiefs must have been dreadful outsiders because of course, we lived in a "nice place."

I was disappointed that the McCanns did not take the line of emphasizing that "no child is safe alone these days" instead of "it was just like being in the garden." If Madeleine was indeed kidnapped, in that small of a time window, then we must do a better job world-wide of convincing people that there are no "nice places" anymore.

And even if she was not, because truly, I don't believe in nice places anymore.

There are NO places "nice"enough for babies & toddlers to be left without a parent or a nanny!

[shrinkydink]

It sounds almost like because it is "common" in Europe somehow (in this case) must be justified, I do not think so at all. Her "mentality" as you call it resulted in the DISAPPEARANCE of her three year old child, let's PLEASE not forget that. Really? It seems like you see her as a "victim" when the only victim I see here is Madeleine whose because of irresponsible parents ended up...well...who knows where! The Mc Canns will ONLY pay for their negligence when they are charged for negligence. Sure but in this case we have a MISSING child, are you going to make an eye blind there? Yes, people make DUMB choices DAILY but when those choices AFFECT OTHER people, in this case a toddler they MUST be held accountable.

Her mentality helped someone take her child, there is actually a difference, and you still don't see, to get that. The person who took her child is the one who is culpable. Did her and her husband's choice to leave their children alone make that crime easier? Of course it did. How has she not been held responsible for that? As far as I know, that action on her part, as wrong as it seems now, IS something that people do all the time, and what you don't get is that - until this happened, they didn't see the harm. Stupid? Obviously. A crime in Portugal? Nope. I'm assuming it's not a crime in Switzerland, either, simply based on how often it's done.

I am NOT saying this makes it a good idea. The fact that a child is missing shows it wasn't. What I am saying is that over here, MOST people ONLY think it is bad luck that their child was taken, not a sign of bad parenting. They only blame the person who took her, not the parents for leaving her.

Yes, hold people accountable, but could they please be held accountable for what they actually did and not made up stories like swinging and child abuse according to American law - a law that does not apply to this case? So many people want to assume they are even capable of murder, which is a pretty big jump, based on the lack of evidence, and the shabby evidence thus far.

I'm not making excuses for what they did, but two wrongs don't make a right, either. Their poor parenting skills don't leave them legally liable for anything at this point. And their poor parenting skills are no excuse for the nonsense that some people spout here, based on nothing but rumors they WANT to believe, since everyone knows bad mothers should be shot at dawn. Seriously, I have read more than once on this board what a shame it is they can't just go ahead and arrest them now, even lacking any proof they did anything worse than leave their children home alone. Some would argue their child being take was some sort of punishment, but people here seem to not think that is punishment enough.

Some people here talk as if it's such a shame we can't just start throwing people in prison based purely on the hateful sentiments of some who have made their decisions based on how they "feel" after seeing some pictures and thinking about how they don't like the smug looks of the parents.

That doesn't seem just a little legally shaky to you? Again, dumb as it was, it was not a crime for them to leave their children sleeping while they went to dinner. And, much as you don't want to believe it, in a lot of the world, that is considered within the realm of "normal." Not wise, but not unheard of and generally not condemned, either.

As for saying no one but Madeleine is a victim, do you really mean to say that, if your child was missing and now presumed dead, and you knew in your heart this wouldn't be the case if you had only not gone to dinner that night, or had you only gotten a babysitter, you really don't think you'd suffer? Just because Kate Mccann did something stupid doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the pain any mother would feel if she had lost a child this way. Do you really think she sits around thinking, well I totally asked for my kid to be take for me by my own bad choices, so I have no right to feel any pain? Or do you just assume she feels no pain because you've made her such a non-human in your mind?

Your inability to recognize that Kate McCann is suffering just proves to me how hard you work to demonize the woman.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

The parents did committ a crime by leaving their children alone, they put their children in danger knowingly, they are not stupid, they knew the risks and what can happen with children if they are left alone, so by putting them in harms way they should be charged with child endangerment.

If we leave our children alone in a car, house etc for a any period of time those children are in danger as they are unable to defend themselves at such a young age, and if the police are called you are charged.

So what makes it so different that the McCanns are not charged for endangering their children.

[ThoughtFox]

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.

Unfortunately, that list is so true, and things happen to children all the time. Little children don't have to fall very far to have major injuries, and the chance of that happening increases when parents aren't there. Of course accidents happen even at home, but you can't hear a child cry out in pain if you are out the door, past the hedge, and in a restaurant with music playing. And that is neglect. :(

The person who took her child is the one who is culpable. Did her and her husband's choice to leave their children alone make that crime easier? Of course it did. How has she not been held responsible for that? As far as I know, that action on her part, as wrong as it seems now, IS something that people do all the time, and what you don't get is that - until this happened, they didn't see the harm. Stupid? Obviously. A crime in Portugal? Nope. I'm assuming it's not a crime in Switzerland, either, simply based on how often it's done.

But that doesn't make it right or good for the children. This isn't about whether the parents thought it was good, right, or something alot of parents do.

This is about what one family did that led to some sort of tragedy - we don't really know what happened yet, but a child is missing. That their "intention" was to be safe isn't the point - people often rationalize what they are doing so they can go off and feel good about it.


What you seem to be talking about is the Logical Fallacy known as "All the Kids on the Block," as in "If all the kids on the block like a certain type of cereal, then we should go buy that cereal now."

Advertisers use that form of persuasion, but it's really illogical.

The argument would be:

If all the parents in Europe are leaving their children alone in resort hotels . . . therefore it is all right that the McCanns did that even if Maddie disappeared . . . and they really did nothing wrong . . . because all parents in Europe leave their children alone.

It's a circular argument in an effort not to pass judgment, but when a child is a victim, the parent's rights are secondary to that, I believe.

[shrinkydink]

I agree with your comments on mothering. We do learn from our own mothers, obviously. I think Kate's mother sounds like a very simple, probably none-too-bright woman with misplaced faith. (Not so unllike some people posting about her family on the internet, in fact.) She also sounds very, very desperate, which is how they have *all* sounded to me, from the beginning. I personally think all the press was a bad idea, because I think huge amounts of international press like that makes any kidnapper less likely to take a child back in public for any reason. I also think it ties up LE in many countries with false leads. I can understand why people would do it, though, because it makes them feel less helpless, and there is the very small chance it might lead to their child being spotted.

I think the sad fact is that in most of these cases, as someone here already mentioned, these children are dead within hours. There is every reason to believe Madeleine will never be found alive, just based on statistics and the amount of time that has already passed.

I can see why her family doesn't want to ever give up hope, though. There are the rare cases where they are found again. A young teenage girl in Germany finally escaped from a dungeon she'd been kept in for years not too long ago. She'd spent something like seven years in a dungeon under a pedophile's house, less than a kilometer from her parents home & the spot where she'd been taken. (She'd been across the street from her parents' apartment, going to a candy store when she was abducted. Someone saw her talking to a man in a car, and then she was just gone. Not heard from again for years. No other signs, not other clues.)

Personally, I think people need to be concentrating more seriously on the very real existence of pedophile rings in Europe, instead of wasting time trying to decide just how bad a parent KM is. Even if she can be proven to be THE worst mother on the planet, if her daughter was indeed taken by a stranger, that should still be the main focus.

If nothing else, I hope the people in Europe whose mantra has always been, "But it doesn't happen that often" will realize that they need to stop doing things that make it so much easier for it to happen as often as it does.

Shrinky

[shrinkydink]

Advertisers use that form of persuasion, but it's really illogical.

The argument would be:

If all the parents in Europe are leaving their children alone in resort hotels . . . therefore it is all right that the McCanns did that even if Maddie disappeared . . . and they really did nothing wrong . . . because all parents in Europe leave their children alone.

It's a circular argument in an effort not to pass judgment, but when a child is a victim, the parent's rights are secondary to that, I believe.

You still don't understand what I am saying. My argument is not circular at all, nor is it even what you say it is.

I am NOT saying that what they did was right, just because everyone else is doing it. I am specifically answering the charge that they are lying when they say they didn't feel it was a mistake at the time. What I was saying is that I beleive they believed that at the time, based on the culture they were were both raised and live in AND based on the fact that they were in a tiny village at the time, where ulocked doors are common. "Common" might not make something right, but it does make it understandable, and it does make it seem true when they say it was what they believed.

I think you aren't separating a moral judgment from a practical one. Do I think they were stupid to do it? Yes, and I have been told many times by Europeans how cold I am to "blame" the parents by saying this. I also never said they shouldn't be held accountable. But other than saying, "Damn, that was stupid, and now your child may be dead because of your stupidity" how do you propose to hold them accountable?

There is a difference between held accountable for your own stupid choices - no matter WHY you made them, and no matter that you thought they seemed like fine choices at the time - and what I see happening here. People are ready to crucify KM for almost everything she does now, including the look on her face! That's not accountablility that's the villager's running amouk with torches, just trying to make themselves feel better by pretending only the children of bad, bad mothers get kidnapped by pedophiles.

It's a very common anxiety-reducing technique used to make ourselves feel better at the expense of other. It's not really any more intelligent than the stpud things these same people are villifying KM for. It's turning a totally blind eye to the very real problem of child predators. People are pretending the predator isn't really the problem, it's someone else. I don't see that attitude as being a whole lot smarter than the attitude that leaving a child alone at night is ok.

Shrinky

[shrinkydink]

The parents did committ a crime by leaving their children alone, they put their children in danger knowingly, they are not stupid, they knew the risks and what can happen with children if they are left alone, so by putting them in harms way they should be charged with child endangerment.

If we leave our children alone in a car, house etc for a any period of time those children are in danger as they are unable to defend themselves at such a young age, and if the police are called you are charged.

So what makes it so different that the McCanns are not charged for endangering their children.

YES - they were STUPID. Absolutely. What they did is a crime by American law, but they did NOT do this in the US. Sorry, but I don't get why this point is lost on you. Maybe it IS a crime in Portugal, and they have not been charged yet, but I don't think it is a crime, or all the other parents at that resosrt would have been charged, too.

American law does not apply outside America, no matter how much you wish it did.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

YES - they were STUPID. Absolutely. What they did is a crime by American law, but they did NOT do this in the US. Sorry, but I don't get why this point is lost on you. Maybe it IS a crime in Portugal, and they have not been charged yet, but I don't think it is a crime, or all the other parents at that resosrt would have been charged, too.

American law does not apply outside America, no matter how much you wish it did.

Shrinky

I know American law doesnt apply outside of America, just like Australian law does not apply outside of Australia.
I am sure I have read somewhere in this forum that there is a law about child endangerment in Portugal, if so they should be charged accordingly, pending further investigation into them having any further involvement in regards to her disappearance.

[shrinkydink]

I know American law doesnt apply outside of America, just like Australian law does not apply outside of Australia.
I am sure I have read somewhere in this forum that there is a law about child endangerment in Portugal, if so they should be charged accordingly, pending further investigation into them having any further involvement in regards to her disappearance.


Well,then, my guess would be they haven't been charged because no one is sure what really happened to her. If they really killed her, then they would obviusly be charged with that, instead. If someone else kidnapped her and killed her or has been holding her for their own evil purposes this whole time, then most people would think the parents are suffering enough having to live through that and they still wouldn't be charged with child endangerment. if they are ever charged with child endangerment, I would think they would get house arrest back in the UK, and there would be some question as to why their friends weren't charged, too.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

Well,then, my guess would be they haven't been charged because no one is sure what really happened to her. If they really killed her, then they would obviusly be charged with that, instead. If someone else kidnapped her and killed her or has been holding her for their own evil purposes this whole time, then most people would think the parents are suffering enough having to live through that and they still wouldn't be charged with child endangerment. if they are ever charged with child endangerment, I would think they would get house arrest back in the UK, and there would be some question as to why their friends weren't charged, too.

Shrinky
If they committed a crime in Portugal and there is a law there, then they should be charged, doesnt matter if they are going through tough times, commit the crime do the time.

[shrinkydink]

If they committed a crime in Portugal and there is a law there, then they should be charged, doesnt matter if they are going through tough times, commit the crime do the time.

Sure, in theory, but that isn't the way it works in the real world. If it did, they and all their friends would have already been arrested that night.

Shrinky

[shrinkydink]

If they committed a crime in Portugal and there is a law there, then they should be charged, doesnt matter if they are going through tough times, commit the crime do the time.


Also, I don't recall any parents of kidnapped children ever being in the news for arrests related to child endangerment, even when the children were very young and kidnapped when unsupervised, as they should have been.

Do you know of any case in which this happened? Because based on this argument, Adam Walsh's mother should have been arrested for child endangerment, because she left him alone in a store while she went shopping in another part of the store. He was only six, far too young to be left alone where she couldn't see him. I don't remember anyone once, ever saying she should be arrested for child endangerment, though.

I still really feel different ideas of fairness and legality are being applied to KM and I just don't see why.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

Also, I don't recall any parents of kidnapped children ever being in the news for arrests related to child endangerment, even when the children were very young and kidnapped when unsupervised, as they should have been.

Do you know of any case in which this happened? Because based on this argument, Adam Walsh's mother should have been arrested for child endangerment, because she left him alone in a store while she went shopping in another part of the store. He was only six, far too young to be left alone where she couldn't see him. I don't remember anyone once, ever saying she should be arrested for child endangerment, though.

I still really feel different ideas of fairness and legality are being applied to KM and I just don't see why.

Shrinky
KM is being treated differently as is her husband, they are getting away with a crime they committed which IMO cannot be compared with other crimes involving children who go missing, this isnt the same as the the Adam Walsh case, each case is different and should be dealt with as per the law, wherever it be.

[shrinkydink]

KM is being treated differently as is her husband, they are getting away with a crime they committed which IMO cannot be compared with other crimes involving children who go missing, this isnt the same as the the Adam Walsh case, each case is different and should be dealt with as per the law, wherever it be.

But what *is* the difference - assuming the didn't kill their child, of course? Both mothers left their children alone when they were too young to be left alone. Why is the Adam Walsh case different in regards to child endangerment? He was only six and his mother was nowhere near him at the time. He was *legally* abandoned at the point at which he was taken.

Look, I'm not at all saying *I* think his mother should be arrested, but by your legal argument she should, and I would just like to know why. I don't see the difference as far as the law is concerned. You said you do the crime, you do the time, so why doesn't this apply to Adam Walsh's mother? That was a crime to leave a child that young alone and unatteneded.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

But what *is* the difference - assuming the didn't kill their child, of course? Both mothers left their children alone when they were too young to be left alone. Why is the Adam Walsh case different in regards to child endangerment? He was only six and his mother was nowhere near him at the time. He was *legally* abandoned at the point at which he was taken.

Look, I'm not at all saying *I* think his mother should be arrested, but by your legal argument she should, and I would just like to know why. I don't see the difference as far as the law is concerned. You said you do the crime, you do the time, so why doesn't this apply to Adam Walsh's mother? That was a crime to leave a child that young alone and unatteneded.

Shrinky
I dont know much about the Adam Walsh case, but did the mother walk off and leave the child intentionally, as the McCanns walked off knowingly leaving their children alone, that is wrong.

[shrinkydink]

I dont know much about the Adam Walsh case, but did the mother walk off and leave the child intentionally, as the McCanns walked off knowingly leaving their children alone, that is wrong.

Yes, she did. She left him in a toy section and told him to wait for her while she went to look for lamps in another department, on another floor. I don't remember how long she was gone before she came back & realized he was missing. I'd have to look that up. But her leaving him was intentional, by her own statement. She just didn't think anything bad would happen so long as he was in the store.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

Yes, she did. She left him in a toy section and told him to wait for her while she went to look for lamps in another department, on another floor. I don't remember how long she was gone before she came back & realized he was missing. I'd have to look that up. But her leaving him was intentional, by her own statement. She just didn't think anything bad would happen so long as he was in the store.

Shrinky
That is sad, and the mother should be charged. Was she charged and what happened to Adam.

[shrinkydink]

That is sad, and the mother should be charged. Was she charged and what happened to Adam.

No, she was never charged. Adam's severed head was found in a canal, but the rest of his body was never found, as far as I know. A serial killer confessed to the crime on his death bed, but I don't think anyone knows for sure if he really did it.

But this was my point about putting that child's mother in jail. I really can't imagine a court in the Western world that would take the stance that she hadn't already suffered more than enough for having left her son alone that day. I just don't see courts anywhere thinking these mothers or society need the mothers in jail as the next logical step.

I do agree that people who endanger a child should go to jail. Had any of those children been hurt, but only slightly, or had Madeleine been found alive and well within hours, that's probably what would have happened. But this woman will possibly live the rest of her life knowing her oldest child came to a horrible end, and believe me, she can't possibly not feel some guilt regarding that, no matter what public face she puts on. Even crime victims who clearly didn't do anything wrong to become victims blame themselves - it's a natural part of the process, no matter the real level of guilt the outside world might think is fair. Victims blame themselves much more than we do, from all the evidence I've ever seen. Their statements to the contrary are generally because they can't take much more guilt being heaped on them than they've already put on themselves.


Shrinky

[Shazza]

No, she was never charged. Adam's severed head was found in a canal, but the rest of his body was never found, as far as I know. A serial killer confessed to the crime on his death bed, but I don't think anyone knows for sure if he really did it.

But this was my point about putting that child's mother in jail. I really can't imagine a court in the Western world that would take the stance that she hadn't already suffered more than enough for having left her son alone that day. I just don't see courts anywhere thinking these mothers or society need the mothers in jail as the next logical step.

I do agree that people who endanger a child should go to jail. Had any of those children been hurt, but only slightly, or had Madeleine been found alive and well within hours, that's probably what would have happened. But this woman will possibly live the rest of her life knowing her oldest child came to a horrible end, and believe me, she can't possibly not feel some guilt regarding that, no matter what public face she puts on. Even crime victims who clearly didn't do anything wrong to become victims blame themselves - it's a natural part of the process, no matter the real level of guilt the outside world might think is fair. Victims blame themselves much more than we do, from all the evidence I've ever seen. Their statements to the contrary are generally because they can't take much more guilt being heaped on them than they've already put on themselves.


Shrinky
That is a tragic story and I can see your point in relation to that case.

As we dont know all the facts in Madelaines McCanns case, and while there maybe proof or they find out the parents did more than just leave their children, I cannot believe they are not guilty. It is more than a gut feeling, it is the lies they have told, the inconsistencies in the stories from them, their friends, the witnesses, employees. There is just so much that doesnt make sense and if you have followed this right from the beginning you will know what I am talking about, ie; the unlocked or locked door, the window which was jammied or not and all the other inconsistencies. There is something wrong with all of this and because we dont know what the police do have we can only go on what we have heard in the media, being the TV, newspapers, interviews with the McCanns, and statements from the LE. But in saying that we still are not sure that what we hear and read at the moment is fact.

[shrinkydink]

That is a tragic story and I can see your point in relation to that case.

As we dont know all the facts in Madelaines McCanns case, and while there maybe proof or they find out the parents did more than just leave their children, I cannot believe they are not guilty. It is more than a gut feeling, it is the lies they have told, the inconsistencies in the stories from them, their friends, the witnesses, employees. There is just so much that doesnt make sense and if you have followed this right from the beginning you will know what I am talking about, ie; the unlocked or locked door, the window which was jammied or not and all the other inconsistencies. There is something wrong with all of this and because we dont know what the police do have we can only go on what we have heard in the media, being the TV, newspapers, interviews with the McCanns, and statements from the LE. But in saying that we still are not sure that what we hear and read at the moment is fact.


I guess that's why I still don't blame them - I don't know what is true when I read it & what isn't. Not even close. Accusastions are just too fast & furious & unsubstantiated to make a fair call. When I read that the neighbor had heard Madeleine crying for her parents, it made me sick. I got pretty worked up about that, then a day or so later, the neighbor's supposedly in the papers saying she *never* said any of the things attributed to her. I just feel like it's better to give the parents the benefit of the doubt, at least until someone can come up with one story and have it stick more than a couple of days. Unless and until the police start coughing up some information, I don't know how that will happen, though. I don't know how much I believe the police, either, but with them holding most of their information and evidence so tightly, it's harder than with most other cases, I think.

As far as the safety of the other kids, I do know there were multiple reports of social services checking on the McCanns after they got back to England, which is fair and right. No matter what really happened in Portugal, protecting the children still with the parents has to be a priority.

Shrinky

[Shazza]

I guess that's why I still don't blame them - I don't know what is true when I read it & what isn't. Not even close. Accusastions are just too fast & furious & unsubstantiated to make a fair call. When I read that the neighbor had heard Madeleine crying for her parents, it made me sick. I got pretty worked up about that, then a day or so later, the neighbor's supposedly in the papers saying she *never* said any of the things attributed to her. I just feel like it's better to give the parents the benefit of the doubt, at least until someone can come up with one story and have it stick more than a couple of days. Unless and until the police start coughing up some information, I don't know how that will happen, though. I don't know how much I believe the police, either, but with them holding most of their information and evidence so tightly, it's harder than with most other cases, I think.

As far as the safety of the other kids, I do know there were multiple reports of social services checking on the McCanns after they got back to England, which is fair and right. No matter what really happened in Portugal, protecting the children still with the parents has to be a priority.

Shrinky
Lets hope we hear more from the LE soon, this case just seems to round and round, one minute you think there is going to be an arrest and then its back to square one, which I think is where we are still at. I cannot get Madelaines face out of my head, I pray we will soon have the answers and whomever is responisible is dealt with.

[southcitymom]

I can tell by your post that you are probably....WRONG!!!

:D

:blowkiss:

[ceeaura]

I just had a big post I was going to respond to hear about the differences I see In the Adam Walsh case and Madeleins....I guess it took me to long to get it wrote out because I got logged out and lost it :(

Adams mom left him with a bunch of other kids playing a video game.She went 75 feet away (25 yards) out of sight but still pretty close,to look at lamps which were out of stock.She left her name and number with a clerk and returned to find Adam gone.She looked for 2 hours on her own for her son.No help from the clerks,security guards or anyone else.Some have said that a security guard made the children playing the video game leave.

The McCanns left 3 three and under children alone in an apartment with a door locked/unlocked.They were a lot further away than 25 yards.They were drinking,probably having a grand ol time.

Back in 1981 things were a lot different than the way things are now.In 26 years we have come a long way in protecting our children.Remember there use to be a time not that long ago that babies and children didn't have to be in a carseat while in a car,seatbelts were not worn and children didn't wear bike helments.Thats why I don't think people were concerned at the time when Adam went missing.John and Reve Walsh has played a big part in how we protect our children today.Our country is not perfect in this at all.I do hope with Madeleines case the whole world will step up and start realizing how important it is to protect our children at all times.

[SleuthMom]

Her mentality helped someone take her child, there is actually a difference, and you still don't see, to get that. The person who took her child is the one who is culpable.

Interesting that you always speak about facts but you are speculating someone took Madeleine, the only fact is that she is missing...that someone took her is an speculation.


I am NOT saying this makes it a good idea. The fact that a child is missing shows it wasn't. What I am saying is that over here, MOST people ONLY think it is bad luck that their child was taken, not a sign of bad parenting. They only blame the person who took her, not the parents for leaving her.

I see, basically they are clueless. It is obvious IF someone kidnaps a child under these circumstances they are to blame and held accountable BUT in no way the parents should be let free without being charged for negligence because their own actions led to the crime.

Yes, hold people accountable, but could they please be held accountable for what they actually did and not made up stories like swinging and child abuse according to American law - a law that does not apply to this case? So many people want to assume they are even capable of murder, which is a pretty big jump, based on the lack of evidence, and the shabby evidence thus far.

I never thought about them as swingers but nothing surprises me about people in general and even if they were that's their choice, they are adults..my only issue is as a parent your actions causes harm to your children, like in this case then I do have a problem with it.

Seriously, I have read more than once on this board what a shame it is they can't just go ahead and arrest them now, even lacking any proof they did anything worse than leave their children home alone.

They should be charged IF there is enough evidence, BUT they should be charged for neglect which I think will happen eventually.

Some would argue their child being take was some sort of punishment, but people here seem to not think that is punishment enough.

Of course is not punishment enough. Do we let free the "repented" thief or the rapist who someone took justice in their own hands and cut his "thing"? No, there is a legal process, and the Mc Canns should not be the exception. Maddie still missing and they have two kids that need to be taken into consideration.

That doesn't seem just a little legally shaky to you? Again, dumb as it was, it was not a crime for them to leave their children sleeping while they went to dinner. And, much as you don't want to believe it, in a lot of the world, that is considered within the realm of "normal." Not wise, but not unheard of and generally not condemned, either.

Oh, I believe you. Some parents are just idiotic. You find them anywhere in the world, nevertheless the little person paying for it was Madeleine and she still missing. Just because of cultural issues, the parents saw that as "normal" (leaving their kids unsupervised) the fact that their daughter is missing BECAUSE OF IT, then the cultural aspect is set aside to deal with the legal aspects and the rights of the child.

As for saying no one but Madeleine is a victim, do you really mean to say that, if your child was missing and now presumed dead, and you knew in your heart this wouldn't be the case if you had only not gone to dinner that night, or had you only gotten a babysitter, you really don't think you'd suffer?

First of all, I am a mom of two boys (number 3 on its way)I would never be in that situation (and yes, I said never) because I know myself and my parenting skills. BUT just to answer your question, if that happens to me I will STILL seeing my MISSING THREE YEAR OLD as the ONLY VICTIM. I would see myself like a complete loser, a terrible mother and probably would be extremely hard to continue living. I would not even DARE to try to put myself as a "victim" because I would be thinking where the heck my little angel is, if she is scared, if she is being tortured or sexually exploited...who knows what else! I would not even dare to feel self-pity for me for being so idiotic, selfish and irresponsible because at the end of the day, I was the one who made my daughter a victim in the first place!

Just because Kate Mccann did something stupid doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the pain any mother would feel if she had lost a child this way. Do you really think she sits around thinking, well I totally asked for my kid to be take for me by my own bad choices, so I have no right to feel any pain? Or do you just assume she feels no pain because you've made her such a non-human in your mind?

I do not know Kate Mc Cann, do you? You speak as you *know* her personally. Just like there are parents who (as you stated) see it "normal" to leave their kids alone and have dinner with friends, NOT every parent feel the same way about their kids. That's reality and unless you know Mrs. Mc Cann PERSONALLY and as a friend, then there is no way you can know that.

[shrinkydink]

I just had a big post I was going to respond to hear about the differences I see In the Adam Walsh case and Madeleins....I guess it took me to long to get it wrote out because I got logged out and lost it :(

Adams mom left him with a bunch of other kids playing a video game.She went 75 feet away (25 yards) out of sight but still pretty close,to look at lamps which were out of stock.She left her name and number with a clerk and returned to find Adam gone.She looked for 2 hours on her own for her son.No help from the clerks,security guards or anyone else.Some have said that a security guard made the children playing the video game leave.

The McCanns left 3 three and under children alone in an apartment with a door locked/unlocked.They were a lot further away than 25 yards.They were drinking,probably having a grand ol time.

Back in 1981 things were a lot different than the way things are now.In 26 years we have come a long way in protecting our children.Remember there use to be a time not that long ago that babies and children didn't have to be in a carseat while in a car,seatbelts were not worn and children didn't wear bike helments.Thats why I don't think people were concerned at the time when Adam went missing.John and Reve Walsh has played a big part in how we protect our children today.Our country is not perfect in this at all.I do hope with Madeleines case the whole world will step up and start realizing how important it is to protect our children at all times.

Well, I don't know, because I never read this version. What I read was that Adam was left alone - the kids who were also on the store playing weren't "with him", they just were also playing video games. They had no connection to him at all, other than the Walsh's contention that the other children acted up, which got them kicked out of the store, and Adam aloong with them, even though Adam - even according to the Walshes was not with those children.

I never heard his mother gave any information to any clerk, so I can't comment on that aspect. I never heard exactly how many yards away she was, but she was far enough away for long enough that, by the time she returned he was long gone and never seen alive again.

I'm not trying to say she was any worse or better than the McCanns. The discussion started with someone saying people leaving small children alone should pay for the crime of child abandonment. My point was simply that, if you do that people like Adam Walsh's mother would end up in prison, too, which I think we all agree wouldn't be the right thing.

As for the "things were different then", that has been one of my points all along - in little European villages, things are here, now a lot different than some posters seem to understand (or were, before Madeliene was abducted).This is not a moral judgement, it's a statement of fact. I see kids left alone to sleep on cars, know people who leave kids along in hotel rooms while they go downstairs to dinner, etc. Again, what they did WAS stupid, but still not nearly as unbelievable or unheard of as a lot of people think. It happens in Switzerland all the time, right or wrong, people here are just not as mistrustful/fearful. Maybe they are more afraid now, but as a lot of people say here, what the McCanns did was no different than someone leaving a child to sleep and having a BBQ in their own big backyard.

It doesn't matter who is right about that before the fact, ultimately, as Madeleine was still taken, and even her mother - the person who made that choice that night, with the father - has been heard on TV many times now, saying she herself cannot believe that thought it was safe. She's alread admitted that in at least two interviews now.

Shrinky

[shrinkydink]

Of course is not punishment enough. Do we let free the "repented" thief or the rapist who someone took justice in their own hands and cut his "thing"?


They did not rape or steal. If you don't think losing a child forever is enough punishment for having made such a bad choice, fine. I just haven't ever seen a jury or judge in a Western country agree with you, and I doubt I will this time, either.





Oh, I believe you. Some parents are just idiotic. You find them anywhere in the world, nevertheless the little person paying for it was Madeleine and she still missing. Just because of cultural issues, the parents saw that as "normal" (leaving their kids unsupervised) the fact that their daughter is missing BECAUSE OF IT, then the cultural aspect is set aside to deal with the legal aspects and the rights of the child.

Culture is not "set aside" when the trial is set within that culture. They will be judged by European standards. Maybe this will work for them, maybe not.



First of all, I am a mom of two boys (number 3 on its way)I would never be in that situation (and yes, I said never) because I know myself and my parenting skills. BUT just to answer your question, if that happens to me I will STILL seeing my MISSING THREE YEAR OLD as the ONLY VICTIM. I would see myself like a complete loser, a terrible mother and probably would be extremely hard to continue living. I would not even DARE to try to put myself as a "victim" because I would be thinking where the heck my little angel is, if she is scared, if she is being tortured or sexually exploited...who knows what else! I would not even dare to feel self-pity for me for being so idiotic, selfish and irresponsible because at the end of the day, I was the one who made my daughter a victim in the first place!



Easy to say when you don't have to test that theory. Maybe you would, or maybe not. I'm sure we share the hope you never have to find out how you would really act in that situation.



I do not know Kate Mc Cann, do you? You speak as you *know* her personally. Just like there are parents who (as you stated) see it "normal" to leave their kids alone and have dinner with friends, NOT every parent feel the same way about their kids. That's reality and unless you know Mrs. Mc Cann PERSONALLY and as a friend, then there is no way you can know that.

No, I do not know her personally, but I have lived in one European country or other for sixteen years, so I know a bit about the differences between the mentality here and in America. I am a mother of a child who is only three months older than Madeleine. I have seen what crime does to people. I could be wrong, of course. I base my ideas on what Kate might be feeling on empathy and sympath. I am human enough to assume the woman is capable of pain. If you don't think she is, that's your right. You don't know her, either, so I don't know why you're so sure the way you think you would feel in her shoes should be applied to her in any way at all.

Shrinky

[SleuthMom]

You don't know her, either, so I don't know why you're so sure the way you think you would feel in her shoes should be applied to her in any way at all.Oh, I make no judgments over that but I do leave the door open that just because she "lost" a daughter (which I personally think she is involved) does not mean she should react in the same way most people would or she should feel in the same way they do. Assuming she is "suffering" is just that, an assumption.

Easy to say when you don't have to test that theory. Maybe you would, or maybe not. I'm sure we share the hope you never have to find out how you would really act in that situation.

I do not know why you say is "easy" to say when you asked me that question. Anyhow, the way I am towards my kids NOW and the way I raise them and the way I care for them indicates the kind of choices I make and I will make, this is just simply common sense.

[KOOL LOOK]

I just had a big post I was going to respond to hear about the differences I see In the Adam Walsh case and Madeleins....I guess it took me to long to get it wrote out because I got logged out and lost it :(

Adams mom left him with a bunch of other kids playing a video game.She went 75 feet away (25 yards) out of sight but still pretty close,to look at lamps which were out of stock.She left her name and number with a clerk and returned to find Adam gone.She looked for 2 hours on her own for her son.No help from the clerks,security guards or anyone else.Some have said that a security guard made the children playing the video game leave.

The McCanns left 3 three and under children alone in an apartment with a door locked/unlocked.They were a lot further away than 25 yards.They were drinking,probably having a grand ol time.

Back in 1981 things were a lot different than the way things are now.In 26 years we have come a long way in protecting our children.Remember there use to be a time not that long ago that babies and children didn't have to be in a carseat while in a car,seatbelts were not worn and children didn't wear bike helments.Thats why I don't think people were concerned at the time when Adam went missing.John and Reve Walsh has played a big part in how we protect our children today.Our country is not perfect in this at all.I do hope with Madeleines case the whole world will step up and start realizing how important it is to protect our children at all times.


Exactly, thanking you for posting this, for I can't fathom much more of the :sick: :sick: :sick:

This needed to be said, thanks again.

[ny_]

Personally, I would hold Gerry McCann equally responsible as Kate McCann for the decision to leave their kids alone. He's their parent too.

Ya, I don't get that either. I mean, obviously it was supposed to be a "family vacation" because they took the kids with them. If they wanted soooo much privacy and time away from the children, why wouldn't they have just left them in the UK with a nanny or relative?

And, I agree--it is Madeleine who has paid the ultimate price for their inability to parent in an effective and responsible manner.

I agree. I'm single & don't have kids myself, but I have friends who are married/parents. Most of them work/commute long hours. They take 2 types of vacations:

1) Family vacations--since they don't get to spend a lot of time together (kids are often sleeping by the time dad and/or mom gets home), they spend a lot of time together during the day. Meals are eaten together early as a family. And mom/dad call it an early night.

2) Romantic getaways--mom & dad need some alone time (perfectly healthy & normal). They leave the kids with grandparents or other trusted adults. Late dinners, more drinking, sleeping in late, lazy beach time, etc. These tend to be just a weekend or long weekend because they don't want to spend a lot of time away from their kids.

And yes, I think things like class and access to the media play a role. Consider the case of Annette Sorensen, a Danish woman who left her child outside a restaurant in NY in 1997 while she had dinner with her boyfriend (the baby's father):
http://www.cnn.com/US/9705/14/denmark.parents/

At least she could see her child outside of the restaurant window. And thankfully nothing happened to the child. Note the quote from the person in charge of child care services about how the NYPD isn't expected to take Danish law/custom re: leaving children alone.

Her claim for false arrest was rejected, but she was compensated for a rights issue:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40910F834550C768DDDAB0994D1494D 81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fC% 2fChildren%20and%20Youth (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40910F834550C768DDDAB0994D1494D 81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fC% 2fChildren%20and%20Youth)

Or this case of a mother who desperately tried to arrange child care & when it fell through, was afraid to come home early for fear she'd lose her job (she was a single mom supporting her family with solely her income):
http://www.photius.com/feminocracy/home_alone_031019_nyt.html

I wonder how Sorensen & Bratwaithe would have been treated if they had access to the money and influential people the McCanns do? I'm guessing they would've been treated a lot differently. Bratwaithe had to arrange bail just to attend her children's funeral.

I've read in other threads that the hotel staff had approached the McCanns about using child care & warned them of burglaries in the resort. Now, if that is true, that means the McCanns showed an even greater disregard for their children's safety. Why not use the child care service available at the resort? Or eat together as a family? Or call it an early night? Or bring someone from home to watch the kids?

I lock the door to my home and my car. While it would still mean a criminal was guilty for breaking into either if I didn't, locking them is a simple precaution which can prevent the crime from even happening to start with. And we don't know for sure Madeline was abducted. Any more than we can prove her parents were involved.

[kittykat1]

I hope with all my heart that this isn't true because if it is, my children are hosed!

I respectfully disagree with you. I can put myself in your children's position (I am a grown woman with two children). I am not hosed. Instead of doing what she does, I do what she doesn't and this makes me a great mom!

[ThoughtFox]

I don't think that "European Custom" or "European Law" is going to come to their rescue for this reason:

Some of the other parents had nannies and babysitters. Therefore, the McCanns made a conscious decision NOT to have a nanny or a babysitter on multiple nights when they were "out."

They cannot say that "everyone" was leaving their children alone. I believe some parents might have left older children alone there - I don't know. But three tiny children alone night after night, with at least one unlocked door?

And I don't believe for a minute that people in Europe are buying the "I come from a small town and never lock my door" plea from the McCanns.

I have read about their background - they studied in Glasgow - not a small town. They lived in New Zealand. These folks are world travellers who realize there are dangers, and they are doctors who know all the things that can happen to children because they've studied medicine.

Ignorance or "Stupidity" is never a good excuse, I don't care what country you are in. And they can't plead that they were naive, because they weren't just small town hicks.

[Rino]

As for saying no one but Madeleine is a victim, do you really mean to say that, if your child was missing and now presumed dead, and you knew in your heart this wouldn't be the case if you had only not gone to dinner that night, or had you only gotten a babysitter, you really don't think you'd suffer? .......


Easy to say when you don't have to test that theory. Maybe you would, or maybe not. I'm sure we share the hope you never have to find out how you would really act in that situation.


Shrinky

You lose me here Shrinky. The McCanns made a victim of their daughter through neglect. If the are guilty of the larger crimes of killing her or drugging the kids we don't yet know. The claim of of kidnapping happened in this case soley due to their bad parenting. That she was taken at all has yet to be proven. If she was abducted, it was because they made an eacy victim of their children, they are only lucky to have still have the twins.

So no, I do not beleive the McCann parents are victims, they are guilty. How much guilt do they own we don't know yet.

Only a parent who leaves their children unattended will be able to test that theory, only neglegent parents. I have raised 3, all under 4 at one time, too. Seeing them to adulthood is the goal, leaving them alone while partying is just one of many ways to blow it.

[shrinkydink]

I don't think that "European Custom" or "European Law" is going to come to their rescue for this reason:

Some of the other parents had nannies and babysitters. Therefore, the McCanns made a conscious decision NOT to have a nanny or a babysitter on multiple nights when they were "out."
Ignorance or "Stupidity" is never a good excuse, I don't care what country you are in. And they can't plead that they were naive, because they weren't just small town hicks.

True. But when you live in a country where most parents have been "guilty" of leaving their under-five child alone because that society considers it reasonably safe, this will be considered.

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

[SleuthMom]

You lose me here Shrinky. The McCanns made a victim of their daughter through neglect. If the are guilty of the larger crimes of killing her or drugging the kids we don't yet know. The claim of of kidnapping happened in this case soley due to their bad parenting. That she was taken at all has yet to be proven. If she was abducted, it was because they made an eacy victim of their children, they are only lucky to have still have the twins.

So no, I do not beleive the McCann parents are victims, they are guilty. How much guilt do they own we don't know yet.

Only a parent who leaves their children unattended will be able to test that theory, only neglegent parents. I have raised 3, all under 4 at one time, too. Seeing them to adulthood is the goal, leaving them alone while partying is just one of many ways to blow it.

Excellent!

[shrinkydink]

[QUOTE=Rino;1683252

So no, I do not beleive the McCann parents are victims, they are guilty. How much guilt do they own we don't know yet.
[/QUOTE]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky

[SleuthMom]

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

Oh I would love to hear a Judge that says to the Mc Canns "Mr and Mrs. Mc Cann you are FREE of the charge of negligence, the LAW understands that culturally, in your country leaving three small kids (three and under) unsupervised (and unfortunately one went missing) is the "norm" . No charges will be filed against you because "everybody does it" in your area."

:hand:

[Texana]

Actually, in Texas, a couple who left three children alone in an apartment in which fire broke out, and the children died, were charged with felony murder:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3636882&ft=lg

just as if they has set the fire themselves.

This is the article from the beginning of the trial, but the mother and the boyfriend were both found guilty at the end.

[Rino]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky

The parent guilty of endangerment, whose child is set on fire is not a victim. No way no how. The poor child is a victim twice, how sad is that?

[sherri79]

i have only had time to skim this thread so my response is to the idea of how bad a mother is she to leave them alone if it is common where she lives. it still makes her a bad mother. if the reports are true that maddie woke crying for her parents earlier in the week it would be cruel to leave her alone in a strange place again. the dangers of a child alone are countless. i know a child that broke her are and the bone went through the shin from falling out of bed. having dinner in a garden is a far cry from having it down the street. my daughter is 12 and in the middle school band. i go to every football game to keep a eye on her. most parents do not. there are teachers there so they feel since it is on school property their child is safe. it is my responsibility to keep my child safe and the excuse of every other parent does it would not bring her back. i look far possible dangers (if you wanted to take a preteen girl where better to find one alone than a after school event?) after i find the dangers i look for ways to protect my child. no greater joy or responsibility is a child.

[sherri79]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim. They can be guilty of endangering their child, but this does not make them guilty of causing the crime that did actually befall the child. Looked at in another case, if a child is left unatteneded, that parent is possibly guilty of child-endangerment, based on circumstances. If a person leaves a child unattendend and that child is set on fire, the parent would not be guilty of setting the child on fire.

It's not the same crime, and the parent would still be a victim by association, as the parent of the child who was a victim. Not a first-hand victim to be sure, but just as much as victim as any parent whose child was set into flames.

Shrinky
wouldn't the parents be a accomplice instead of a victim?

[shrinkydink]

Actually, in Texas, a couple who left three children alone in an apartment in which fire broke out, and the children died, were charged with felony murder:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=3636882&ft=lg

just as if they has set the fire themselves.

This is the article from the beginning of the trial, but the mother and the boyfriend were both found guilty at the end.

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

[shrinkydink]

wouldn't the parents be a accomplice instead of a victim?

I guess it depends on definitions at this point. Was Adam Walsh's mother an accomplice? If I leave my door open or my child alone for five minutes, am I an accomplice? My dictionary says an accomlice is

a person who knowingly helps another in a crime or wrongdoing, often as a subordinate.

Did the McCanns KNOWINGLY help another commit a crime? I seriously doubt, stupid as they were, the McCanns left their children alone with the intent their children be kidnapped, so I tend to think that weren't accomplices.

If you leave your front door open and someone walks in and robs you are you an accomplice or a victim or a little of both?

Shrinky

[sherri79]

I guess it depends on defintions at this point. Was Adam Walsh's mother an accomplice? Could a person not be both, if the "accomplice" part was not intended? I seriously doubt, stupid as they were, the McCanns left their children alone with the intent their children be kidnapped, so I tend to think that weren't accomplices.

If you leave your front door open and someone walks in and robs you are you an accomplice or a victim or a little of both?

Shrinky adam walsh's mother is a good point. i take into account this was long before the public was aware of the dangers to a child even in public if you took your eyes off them. there was no center for missing children at the time. she felt her son was safe due to the fact she was in public and people did not run around grabbing kids in the middle of a mall. in maddie's case the parent knew the children were in danger. if not from stranger than from fire or accident. dont forget the twins. any parent knows 2yr olds are a walking bruise. children in this age range are known for accidents. the big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger.

[petra]

True. But when you live in a country where most parents have been "guilty" of leaving their under-five child alone because that society considers it reasonably safe, this will be considered.

I don't know the legal system in Portugal, but in Switzerland, what is considered the societal norm would be taken into consideration by a panel of judges. If the judges consider this a "societal norm", it would not be prosecuted.

Shrinky

This is simply NOT true.

I would like to see some links to Swiss child neglect and /or endangerment laws that address this.

Please stop spreading misinformation and your opinion which is not fact.
This is a very serious issue. And this is not the way it works.

[lakes]

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

Shrinky
All i can say is that it is not that lax in the UK, iF YOU GET AWAY FROM WHAT THE uk Media have to say you will find a lot of us in the UK would not do whatthe Mccanns did.

Some do put their kids into preschools if they work, over the last few years we are being told that when you have a child you shold be back at work almost as soon as the cord is cut...that dont happen.

Child care is very big over here but i often hear of mothers giving up their jobs to look after their children full time.

It is also seen over here that if you go on a family holiday that what it is, a family. you dont push your kids into care all day, yes we have holiday parks where the kids can go to, but thats only for a few hours and you are still in the park.

I have a 2 year old , her name is Madison, and it dont feel good when we see headlines like Maddies dead.

I would never leave her if we was on holiday at that age, not even if she was 5 or 6.

[petra]

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Facts please. Another non truth.

[shrinkydink]

This is simply NOT true.

I would like to see some links to Swiss child neglect and /or endangerment laws that address this.

Please stop spreading misinformation and your opinion which is not fact.
This is a very serious issue. And this is not the way it works.

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

[petra]

All i can say is that it is not that lax in the UK, iF YOU GET AWAY FROM WHAT THE uk Media have to say you will find a lot of us in the UK would not do whatthe Mccanns did.

Some do put their kids into preschools if they work, over the last few years we are being told that when you have a child you shold be back at work almost as soon as the cord is cut...that dont happen.

Child care is very big over here but i often hear of mothers giving up their jobs to look after their children full time.

It is also seen over here that if you go on a family holiday that what it is, a family. you dont push your kids into care all day, yes we have holiday parks where the kids can go to, but thats only for a few hours and you are still in the park.

I have a 2 year old , her name is Madison, and it dont feel good when we see headlines like Maddies dead.

I would never leave her if we was on holiday at that age, not even if she was 5 or 6.

Welcome Lakes.
I agree with you.
Still hoping for a miracle that Madeleine is alive and well cared for somewhere, somehow.

[petra]

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

[BloodshotEye]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based.

[shrinkydink]

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

Portugal, for those who don't know, has a system *based on* the Napoleonic Code. I didn't make that up, either. Swiss civil law is based on Roman code.

Shrinky

[shrinkydink]

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

So far, I don't think I did, or you wouldn't have said Swiss law wasn't based in Roman.

Shrinky

[sherri79]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based. yes but i can point out cases in the U.S. of parents that committed neglect that caused the death of a child and faced no justice. often pity for a parent can lead to charges not being filed. the whole "they are suffering enough" idea comes into play. here i know a DA can choose not to press charges. i have no idea about there.

[shrinkydink]

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

"Euro law"? Switzerland is not part of the European union. Why would we have anything in English? You claim to know the law, but you don't even know Switzerland is not part of that union?

Shrinky

[petra]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based.

Yes, you are spot on. It is against the law in PT.
The legal process moves slower-with up to 12 months to charge for a crime.

[BloodshotEye]

Thank you for confirming, Petra.
12 months? My goodness, I had no idea. In the U.S., it would be nearly instantaneous. Well, I do hope that the Portugese legal proceedings do not succumb to the campaign for sympathy. I conside the abandonment of the three children, a completely separate matter, from the disappearance of Maddie. The law should not be applied differentially, with preference given to those who can afford a big time spin operation, and the requisite legal defense.

[petra]

"Euro law"? Switzerland is not part of the European union. Why would we have anything in English? You claim to know the law, but you don't even know Switzerland is not part of that union?

Shrinky

FYI
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/switzerland/intro/index.htm
SNIPPET ON BI-LATERAL AGREEMENTS WHICH SUPERCEED CH LAW

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Info on CH-EU LAW AGREEMENTS

Switzerland has also agreed to contribute €125 million per annum over 5 years to social and economic cohesion in the enlarged EU. Following the example of Norway, which will pay about €220 million p.a., .... understanding which was signed on 27 February 2006. It will become operational once the internal procedures for the appropriation of funds are concluded. A public referendum on the contribution, held on 26 November 2006, had a positive outcome with 53% in favour. Switzerland will conclude binding implementing agreements with each beneficiary state.
An EU-Switzerland summit was held on 19 May 2004, attended by Commission President Prodi, Irish Deputy Prime Minister Harney and Swiss President Deiss. The summit marked the political conclusion of the main elements of the bilateral negotiations,.....



Love to Discuss in more depth--but we should move to jury room. :)

[colomom]

It seems to me that "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
--"Captain" in Cool Hand Luke

It is very distressing to me to watch what is happening to this forum that is supposed to be dedicated to Madeleine McCann and (hopefully) finding some justice and peace for a little girl.

While I have always welcomed argument when it furthers the thought process and provides insight to what might have been a previously un-considered idea or point of view, what I cannot stand is argument for the sake of argument. It is disturbing to my spirit to watch this constant back and forth with no apparent forward movement.

Whatever happened to "let's agree to disagree"? In the 4 months that I have participated on this forum I have only seen one thread locked. There seems to have been a fundamental shift somewhere...

It is my opinion that you will never convince someone to consider your way of thinking by beating them over the head with the same "dead fish". The process of teaching another is a tactful one with alot of love and understanding.

Please people, can we have some downtime from this? I hope you have noticed that this "failure to communicate" is causing alot of us alot of stress.

This is entirely my opinion and an expression of my point of view. I will not respond to questions.

[shrinkydink]

FYI
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/switzerland/intro/index.htm
SNIPPET ON BI-LATERAL AGREEMENTS WHICH SUPERCEED CH LAW

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Info on CH-EU LAW AGREEMENTS

Switzerland has also agreed to contribute €125 million per annum over 5 years to social and economic cohesion in the enlarged EU. Following the example of Norway, which will pay about €220 million p.a., .... understanding which was signed on 27 February 2006. It will become operational once the internal procedures for the appropriation of funds are concluded. A public referendum on the contribution, held on 26 November 2006, had a positive outcome with 53% in favour. Switzerland will conclude binding implementing agreements with each beneficiary state.
An EU-Switzerland summit was held on 19 May 2004, attended by Commission President Prodi, Irish Deputy Prime Minister Harney and Swiss President Deiss. The summit marked the political conclusion of the main elements of the bilateral negotiations,.....



Love to Discuss in more depth--but we should move to jury room. :)

Ok, see you in the jury room, then, even though I think that you seem to not get that a bilateral agreement still means we aren't EU: We have bilaterals out the wazoo - still very much not an EU member state:blowkiss:

Just fyi, though, I tend not to trust anything that is supposedly a legal, bilateral document, yet it spells supercede as "SUPERCEED". It also, tellingly has *nothing to do with the topic of children and/or the laws pertaining to their abandonment*. What you did here is alot like me quoting a text regarding the export of New Jersey lolipops to Lisbon. It's pretty meaningless relative to this situation. Or do you really think that this bilateral means that ALL Swiss law has been superceded by EU law. Oh, no, I can assure you, this has not happened.

Shrinky

[Texana]

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a jury of ordinary citizens. As well, the defendant in the United States has the constitutional right to choose either a judge or a jury trial.

[bakerprune64]

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a jury of ordinary citizens. As well, the defendant in the United States has the constitutional right to choose either a judge or a jury trial.

I agree Texana

[southcitymom]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim........

This has been a very interesting thread.

I agree with you 100% that even if a parent's own terrible error in judgment plays a part in the death of their child, that parent is still a victim. In fact, their pain in probably even greater than the pain of a parent whose child is snatched and gone and missing under different circumstances (ie - where the parent did not make an error in judgment that contributed to the crime).

Like most people on this board, I would not have left children this age alone in a room while I went out for dinner and drinks. But the McCanns had obviously done this before without returning to find trouble, so their perspective was tempered by their experience.

I don't know anything about Portugal's laws, but I think that had they broken one by leaving the children, we would have heard about it. My jury is still out about whether or not the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance - I have a hard time understanding how or where they could have hidden her body for one thing.

In any event, I do feel tremendous empathy for them.

TOS here states that we don't bash victims, but the bottom line is that who is a victim is in the eye of the beholder. It's not an objective measure. I'm sure people who think an intruder killed JonBenet do not think the JBR forum here complies with the TOS.

Madeleine's parents are obviously suspects and I don't blame authorities for looking at them. But I am not yet ready to make the leap from my opinion that they made a poor parenting decision to an opinion that they murdered their daughter.

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Continued prayer's for this young girl's discovery and return.

[ceeaura]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.

[Shazza]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.
Great Link ceeaura, I agree with everything she said.

[teacherbees]

I also agree with every word she said.

[CaliKid]

I do too, and I think most people agree with her. She brings up a very good point- the McCanns should've known better. So why didn't they? Selfishness?

[ThoughtFox]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.

Great interview! Whew - she really stated her opinion with some forcefulness, and I have to say I agree 100%. :woohoo:

Texana]
Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a