Fencesitters & Not Guilty Post Here - THREAD NO. 2

[Jeana (DP)]

Continue here, but without all the Terms of Service violations please

[ceeaura]

Thank you for restarting this thread Jeana :) I think this is one of the best threads in here.Not saying that any of the others are not good I just like this thread to read in hopes that my mind can be changed off the guilty I feel.

So thanks again :)

[KOOL LOOK]

All you new and improved posters. Fencesitters was established for those not yet convinced the Mccans are guilty and those posters who are firm not guilty believers.

At any point and time you decide to land, we have plenty of pillows to soften the impact. We all don't want parents to be guilty of harming their babies. We also know it happens.

Many have worked here with such dedication to bring us the news, as genuinely as their able to get their hands on it. We commend you.

Our opinions will change often as news and evidence becomes apparent. Please feel free to talk, tell us what's on your minds.

We had figured out so much during the Laci Peterson case by doing this way before scheduled, conferences, the trial etc... ever came public. We had already gotten to the bottom of so much.

We can help in locating maddy. I believe due to a couple of posters theories the church has come under radar to the police, as some here notified them to search their grounds. Happy posting.

I'm 90% percent feeling Kate killed maddy, gerry is an accomplice, and another unknown accomplice is in the shadows lurking.

[Texana]

Continue here, but without all the Terms of Service violations please

thank you, Jeana.

[strach304]

Notice all the media reports the last few days are changing their original info from their "sources" that claimed there was forensic evidence that not only proved Madeleine was dead but also that her parents were responsible?

Personally I think it's because of the secrecy laws that were changed and taking affect on Monday. This new law I noticed will allow the suspects access to the investigators files. The way I see it if the Port LE told Kate things that were simply aimed at getting a confession but had no basis in truth then that will come out imo. As I understand it the McCanns were already going to sue one media outlet so I think they can be called to the carpet on certain things they have reported as coming from sources within the Port LE.

Hopefully this new law will allow us to get an idea of what is factual and what is not. We already know the parents are idiots for leaving their children alone like that so we don't have to rely on the media for that info thankfully.

[april4sky]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/16/nmaddy116.xml

Hope for McCanns as law on secrecy is eased

The changes to Portuguese law follow complaints that investigating officers have been "hiding" behind the secrecy rules to conceal basic errors made since Madeleine vanished from apartment 5a of the Mark Warner Ocean Club Resort in Praia da Luz.

The Portuguese law was officially changed yesterday but will not come into force until tomorrow, the first working day after the weekend.

-------------------------------------------------------------
The Sunday Telegraph understands, however, that the police have already anticipated the rule change and have prepared an appeal to the public prosecutor to keep the Madeleine file secret.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not surprised they prefer to keep their secrets. I wonder why!!!!

And I don't believe its to protect their "evidence/case".

[april4sky]

Notice all the media reports the last few days are changing their original info from their "sources" that claimed there was forensic evidence that not only proved Madeleine was dead but also that her parents were responsible?

Personally I think it's because of the secrecy laws that were changed and taking affect on Monday. This new law I noticed will allow the suspects access to the investigators files. The way I see it if the Port LE told Kate things that were simply aimed at getting a confession but had no basis in truth then that will come out imo. As I understand it the McCanns were already going to sue one media outlet so I think they can be called to the carpet on certain things they have reported as coming from sources within the Port LE.

Hopefully this new law will allow us to get an idea of what is factual and what is not. We already know the parents are idiots for leaving their children alone like that so we don't have to rely on the media for that info thankfully.

You beat me to it...

I hope the law does change things so we can get some "facts". Unfortunately the Police intend to appeal the ruling though.
I have a feeling they will get their way....Sods law!!!!

[april4sky]

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

Hair found in the car hired by Madeleine McCann's parents cannot be matched to the missing four-year-old, it was revealed last night.



British forensic experts have concluded the fragments said to be Madeleine's could belong to any number of people who had come into contact with the silver Renault Scenic.
This demolishes earlier claims that the hairs would prove the McCanns had hidden Madeleine's body in the car after killing her in their holiday apartment. The fragments found did not even allow the scientists to establish the sex or age of the individual.

-------------------------
We need to keep in mind it's "sources" again.
If true what does this tell us about what is going on regarding "smearing"

[april4sky]

Thought provoking article.
----------------------------------------
Lies, beatings, secret trials: the dark side of police handling Madeleine case

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482007&in_page_id=1811

Amaral is an arguido, facing possible trial on a serious criminal charge arising from a murder case brought to court in 2004, the last occasion a little girl vanished in the Algarve.

According to the order, documents about the case have been restricted to a handful of officials, while the next stage of the process – a hearing at which Amaral and four fellow officers may be asked formal questions – will be conducted in secret.
-------------------------------
No one would suggest that in the course of the marathon interrogations that preceded their departure from Portugal last weekend, Kate or Gerry McCann were the victims of physical violence.
But at times it seemed they were also being subjected to torment, albeit of a different, psychological kind.
-------------------------------

If the questionable leak had been planted for a purpose – to increase the pressure on the hapless McCanns – it may well have succeeded. And, in the foreign public's mind, the germinating notion that Kate might have killed her daughter because she could not handle her had been nurtured by a further dollop of manure.
--------------------------------
"They are getting it from the police, of course, and the justice officers, the people working for the prosecutors. It's obvious that some information is coming from the PJ."
---------------------------------
Rev Hubbard Haynes, the Anglican vicar who lives in Praia da Luz .

"All I can say is that my tears are as nothing to the tears I have seen shed by Kate and Gerry.
"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.
----------------------------------
Well worth the read IMO

[Jdee]

Thank you April for the news! It is for this reason I can't convict these people for murder. ALL inuendo. And what happend to the "clumps" of hair? NEVER was there...

[april4sky]

A different view, near the bottom of the article, of the McCanns. A a lot more believable IMO than the usual critical ones.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482007&in_page_id=1811


Rev Hubbard Haynes, the Anglican vicar who lives in Praia da Luz and got closer to the McCanns than anyone during their months in Portugal.

A young, passionate Canadian, who took up his post a week after Madeleine's disappearance said.

"All I can say is that my tears are as nothing to the tears I have seen shed by Kate and Gerry.
"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.

[philamena]

......
At any point and time you decide to land, we have plenty of pillows to soften the impact.
......



Kool Look,
Are you saying you're so certain of the McCann's guilt that you know the fence sitters will 'land"? :doh:

I'm going to be honest with you, I still haven't seen, heard or read any solid evidence/proof that the McCann's harmed and disposed of their child. I've read, heard, seen 3 confirmed stats about this case.......
1. The McCann's and their children were on holiday together.
2. While on holiday their precious 4 yr old disappeared.
3. The McCann's rented a car.

There is no confirmed DNA evidence and the time line hasn't been totally confirmed yet.

[KOOL LOOK]

Kool Look,
Are you saying you're so certain of the McCann's guilt that you know the fence sitters will 'land"? :doh:

I'm going to be honest with you, I still haven't seen, heard or read any solid evidence/proof that the McCann's harmed and disposed of their child. I've read, heard, seen 3 confirmed stats about this case.......
1. The McCann's and their children were on holiday together.
2. While on holiday their precious 4 yr old disappeared.
3. The McCann's rented a car.

There is no confirmed DNA evidence and the time line hasn't been totally confirmed yet.


No i'm saying exactly what i said, we have pillows here in case someone falls off the fence. We have more facts that what you mentioned here. How about it's a fact the mccanns and family haven't personally searched land for maddy?

[STEADFAST]

No i'm saying exactly what i said, we have pillows here in case someone falls off the fence. We have more facts that what you mentioned here. How about it's a fact the mccanns and family haven't personally searched land for maddy?

We fence-sitters also have little stepladders made out of scepticism to help you up. The view is lovely up here.:)

PS I didn't know they never personally searched! One for your side, for sure!

[shrinkydink]

We fence-sitters also have little stepladders made out of scepticism to help you up. The view is lovely up here.:)

PS I didn't know they never personally searched! One for your side, for sure!

That's not true. The first night they did search, for hours, sometimes alone, after the police told them they had done all they were going to do until the sun came up. This is one of the complaints about the police -that they left the McCanns to search alone for hours that first morning.

I believe they were advised after that to let the "professionals" handle the physical search.

I'll have to find the link for that. It was in the Times or the Guardian last week.

Shrinky

[KOOL LOOK]

We fence-sitters also have little stepladders made out of scepticism to help you up. The view is lovely up here.:)

PS I didn't know they never personally searched! One for your side, for sure!

Hey, I got me a point on my side, te he. I'm doing good today. I wasn't positive, I actually just started a thread about this, it's relaly bothering me folks, genuinely! Why haven't they? Wouldn't you steadfast have searched yourself along with all of your family, friends neighbors?

I'm not 100% sure their guilty yet. I started out in this case in the beginning believing their innocensts. I've only taken a leg off the fence about 2 months ago. I really don't want them to be guilty, I would scream, shout and holler if we find out their are innocent.

Thank you for the point, I needed that.

[STEADFAST]

Thank you for the point, I needed that.

Er . . . well, it's only maybe half a point now that shrinky says they did search.

If they did NO searching themselves after that first night, though, no matter what the police advised them, I think it's very suspicious. (I mean, at least they could say they were going for a walk and search then.) What sort of searches or efforts has the Maddie fund funded?

Maybe it's possible that, although they may not have killed her, they just weren't all that attached to her and they're having trouble hiding the fact.

[KOOL LOOK]

Er . . . well, it's only maybe half a point now that shrinky says they did search.

If they did NO searching themselves after that first night, though, no matter what the police advised them, I think it's very suspicious. (I mean, at least they could say they were going for a walk and search then.) What sort of searches or efforts has the Maddie fund funded?

Maybe it's possible that, although they may not have killed her, they just weren't all that attached to her and they're having trouble hiding the fact.



These parents haven't searched. Going down the street, and back to your apartment calling police, then walk the streets a =n hour or two, no that's not searching.

I take my full point back, :razz: it's mine, I want it i want it i want it!

Marketing is not searching.

[shrinkydink]

Er . . . well, it's only maybe half a point now that shrinky says they did search.

If they did NO searching themselves after that first night, though, no matter what the police advised them, I think it's very suspicious. (I mean, at least they could say they were going for a walk and search then.) What sort of searches or efforts has the Maddie fund funded?

Maybe it's possible that, although they may not have killed her, they just weren't all that attached to her and they're having trouble hiding the fact.


They might have done that - not officially looking with the investigators, but looking on their own. I don't know that anyone has bothered to trace their steps in that regard. I am finding every link I need other than one telling when they searched or didn't. Today was a very busy McCann news day at all the UK papers, so there's lots to wade through. The link that I think is the right one keeps coming up as an error. I'll keep trying.

I have wondered about the not-that-attached to her thing, too, but I also get the feeling that they have really, really bad PR people who have grossly misread a lot of situations.

Shrinky

[eleven]

These parents haven't searched. Going down the street, and back to your apartment calling police, then walk the streets a =n hour or two, no that's not searching.

I take my full point back, :razz: it's mine, I want it i want it i want it!

Marketing is not searching.

Kool-

I noticed you started a new thread stating you didn't know if the McCanns searched or not, but on this thread you say that you know they didn't search. Were you able to find a link to something that says they didn't search? Just curious how you came about that info because I have been looking and can't find it. My searching skills leave a lot to be desired, LOL, so could post your link?

[STEADFAST]

Kool-

I noticed you started a new thread stating you didn't know if the McCanns searched or not, but on this thread you say that you know they didn't search. Were you able to find a link to something that says they didn't search? Just curious how you came about that info because I have been looking and can't find it. My searching skills leave a lot to be desired, LOL, so could post your link?

The problem with trying to find out if the McCanns did any searching themselves is with the word "search." It has so many applications to this case that you can't just put "McCanns search" into Google without getting every page that references the search for Madeleine in general and also pages about search engines, search for the truth, and searching McCann ancestry.

[KOOL LOOK]

Kool-

I noticed you started a new thread stating you didn't know if the McCanns searched or not, but on this thread you say that you know they didn't search. Were you able to find a link to something that says they didn't search? Just curious how you came about that info because I have been looking and can't find it. My searching skills leave a lot to be desired, LOL, so could post your link?

Let me explain what I mean by search. I know the Mccanns walked up and down the street adjacent to their apartment for the first two or so hours, according to all the reports and what I've read here.

What I mean by a search, the kind we're accustomed to here. Searches that are organized, command center, tracker dogs, volunteers, police, all terrain vehicles, grids being done. Every stone un-turned.

Knocking on doors for information. That kinds of searching. A real whole hearted search. Riding up and down every street in portugal asking have you seen maddy, like I would be doing today.

[eleven]

The problem with trying to find out if the McCanns did any searching themselves is with the word "search." It has so many applications to this case that you can't just put "McCanns search" into Google without getting every page that references the search for Madeleine in general and also pages about search engines, search for the truth, and searching McCann ancestry.

No, not when you use quotations in your search criteria. When you simply google the words McCanns and Search, then all of the above that you write does come up. When you use quotations, like this: "McCann Search", then your results will be only websites that have that exact term in it, with the word McCann directly in front of the word Search.

Still, it brings up alot, but I still wasn't able to find something that all the McCanns did was go up the street and back for an hour or two.

[eleven]

Let me explain what I mean by search. I know the Mccanns walked up and down the street adjacent to their apartment for the first two or so hours, according to all the reports and what I've read here.

What I mean by a search, the kind we're accustomed to here. Searches that are organized, command center, tracker dogs, volunteers, police, all terrain vehicles, grids being done. Every stone un-turned.

Knocking on doors for information. That kinds of searching. A real whole hearted search. Riding up and down every street in portugal asking have you seen maddy, like I would be doing today.

Well, I guess that was what my question pertained to--you said they haven't searched, so I was wondering where you came across that info? I haven't found anything that says that.

[KOOL LOOK]

No, not when you use quotations in your search criteria. When you simply google the words McCanns and Search, then all of the above that you write does come up. When you use quotations, like this: "McCann Search", then your results will be only websites that have that exact term in it, with the word McCann directly in front of the word Search.

Still, it brings up alot, but I still wasn't able to find something that all the McCanns did was go up the street and back for an hour or two.

Maybe you should go read some or all of the threads around here. That's what I've been reading. It was reported after Kate returned to the apartment, ran back to the "BAR", she ran in and out of the apartment, looking for maddy. Up and down the street at the apartment.

I also believe I read here that after the police left, her and gerry walked the streets for two hours looking for her. I also replied to your post to me in trying to explain search.

I don't qualify anything I've read or heard to date a search in my opinion for a child that can't just walk out of a bad or dangerous situation and return back home to mommy and daddy.

[STEADFAST]

No, not when you use quotations in your search criteria. When you simply google the words McCanns and Search, then all of the above that you write does come up. When you use quotations, like this: "McCann Search", then your results will be only websites that have that exact term in it, with the word McCann directly in front of the word Search.

Still, it brings up alot, but I still wasn't able to find something that all the McCanns did was go up the street and back for an hour or two.

Still, you get every page about "Madeleine McCann search efforts, ". . . search continues," ". . . search is called off," etc. I'm going to go see if I can find anything with phrases like "initial search," "private search efforts," and the like.

[KOOL LOOK]

Well, I guess that was what my question pertained to--you said they haven't searched, so I was wondering where you came across that info? I haven't found anything that says that.


Exactly, I haven't found anything saying anything about searches, foot to land, foot to pavement searches myself. Hand to door, mouth to phone, hand under rock, tracker dogs over land.

[CaliKid]

Here are some newspaper links from early in Madeleine's disappearance.

From 5/4 (the day after) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm

Sniffer dogs have been brought in to help search for a three-year-old from Britain who may have been abducted on holiday with her family in Portugal.

Officers sealed off the area of the apartment for forensic checks and extra police teams were brought in from Lisbon.

"It's still questionable as to whether it's abduction," he said.

From 5/5 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2073270,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Police at first launched a missing person hunt, but revealed today that it was now a kidnapping investigation.

In defense of the PJ, I have to say that it was the McCanns themselves who insisted that Madeleine had been kidnapped. They were positive of it, and early on it became the major focus of the investigation. Maybe if the parents had let the police handle the disappearance themselves, a more in-depth local ground search would've been made. But it soon turned into all about sightings of her at gas stations, etc.

From 5/6 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270294,00.html

About 150 investigators have been deployed in Portugal and are liaising with British police and Interpol.

Hundreds of holidaymakers, British expatriates and local residents yesterday joined the hunt for Madeleine, which included local campsites.

The article doesn't mention the parents helping in the search so we don't know if they did or not but again the focus was on an out-of-area kidnapping. If the McCanns were positive she'd been abducted, why would they bother to search for her around Praia da Luz. They made several appeals to the kidnapper and went to mass.

From 5/10 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6637469.stm

On Tuesday, Portuguese officers said they had quizzed 100 people and searched 500 apartments.

Portuguese police have also rejected local media claims that more effort has been put in than would have been made for a Portuguese child.

From 5/11 (8 days later) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6645341.stm

The official ground search for Madeleine in the Algarve has ended, but police say they still have significant leads to follow up.

The focus is shifting from being a local search for Madeleine to an international child abduction inquiry.

On Thursday Portuguese police said ground searches, which have covered nearly 80 square miles, were being scaled back as the results had been "zero".


Also this one: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2530766.ece

Portuguese police have declared that they are calling off their search for Madeleine McCann in a vast area around the Algarve village where she disappeared because their efforts have come to nothing.

At a press conference last night, Chief Inspector Olegarion Sousa said that " all the places that have been checked, the results are zero" across a 200 sq km area centred on Praia da Luz * and that the inquiry would now change tack.

I know in the US, official ground searches go on much longer than a week. And there is no mention on what kind of ground seach was done. I do know they knocked on doors in Praia da Luz and checked out some of the empty holiday apartments around the resort as well as searching the harbor and beach and the hills outside of town. At this point the police were more focused on tips about strangers being seen around the resort and Madeleine possibly taken out of the area than local hunts for her.

This is a news link from May 26 that talks about the search for Madeleine. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=265331

The family is concentrating on its internet and media campaigns to publicise her disappearance across Europe. They are also hopeful about the outcome of an investigation jointly led by Portuguese and British authorities.

I don't think the McCanns physically searched for her beyond the first night.

[KOOL LOOK]

In other words, these parents have never searched for maddy? if you want to call the first hour a search, so be it. How very very sad indeed. Wow, how do you get by with that? How has this flew over everyone's head? I don't get it folks.

Bless you Calikid for the information. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'm so disappointed, maddy really hasn't been looked for. Geez.

[STEADFAST]

In defense of the PJ, I have to say that it was the McCanns themselves who insisted that Madeleine had been kidnapped. They were positive of it, and early on it became the major focus of the investigation. Maybe if the parents had let the police handle the disappearance themselves, a more in-depth local ground search would've been made. But early on, it turned into all about sightings of her at gas stations, etc.


I posted (over in the wrong thread -- the one about the McCann's new ad campaign) a couple of links showing that there was in fact a widespread ground search for Madeleine before May 10. Not sure, also, how the McCann's were controlling the Portuguese police at any time. How would that work?

[STEADFAST]

In other words, these parents have never searched for maddy? if you want to call the first hour a search, so be it. How very very sad indeed. Wow, how do you get by with that? How has this flew over everyone's head? I don't get it folks.

Bless you Calikid for the information. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'm so disappointed, maddy really hasn't been looked for. Geez.

I think there was a search as I wrote above. Maybe the McCanns didn't think they needed to mount another one. Big question, though: To what extent, if any, did they participate in the early official searches? I agree that if they didn't help, it looks very very suspicious.

[CaliKid]

I didn't say the McCanns were controlling the police. I said from the very first minute they would accept no option except that Madeleine had been kidnapped. It was impossible that she'd wandered out of the apartment on her own. They shoved it down the PJ's throat.

[STEADFAST]

I didn't say the McCanns were controlling the police. I said from the very first minute they would accept no option except that Madeleine had been kidnapped. It was impossible that she'd wandered out of the apartment on her own. They shoved it down the PJ's throat.

I can believe that the local cops might allow that to happen possibly, but the ones from Lisbon? I don't see how the McCanns could shove a theory down their throats or be in control of what options the police had.

[KOOL LOOK]

Steadfast and cali, I wanted to thank you for looking up all the articles you have in trying to help me or should I say comfort me about searches. I can say though, I'm still not at ease about it.

They should still be looking for maddy. the money is there to help. Why aren't they? It just doesn't sit within my spirit as being a true kidnapping then. I'm sorry.

I hold the parents responsible for seeing everything is done within a persons ability to hunt for her. She hasn't just went poof, and de-sintegrated? Unless there's something to the pet ovens, but if there was any truth to that, surely police would have already ruled this in as possible truth and evidence.

There's no way this should slip through the cracks. Unless the Mccanns weren't the actual people that carried the two black bags to the man at the pet incinerators. You could feel a body, versus a dog or animals couldn't you. Could he have been paid alot of money? Or could someone have watched this business and entered during a time no one was around?

I don't know. Not enough answers. Nothing. Maddy hasn't just went poof. No way. Somebody, and more than just one person, knows something.

[STEADFAST]

Steadfast and cali, I wanted to thank you for looking up all the articles you have in trying to help me or should I say comfort me about searches. I can say though, I'm still not at ease about it.

They should still be looking for maddy. the money is there to help. Why aren't they? It just doesn't sit within my spirit as being a true kidnapping then. I'm sorry.

I hold the parents responsible for seeing everything is done within a persons ability to hunt for her. She hasn't just went poof, and de-sintegrated? Unless there's something to the pet ovens, but if there was any truth to that, surely police would have already ruled this in as possible truth and evidence.

There's no way this should slip through the cracks. Unless the Mccanns weren't the actual people that carried the two black bags to the man at the pet incinerators. You could feel a body, versus a dog or animals couldn't you. Could he have been paid alot of money? Or could someone have watched this business and entered during a time no one was around?

I don't know. Not enough answers. Nothing. Maddy hasn't just went poof. No way. Somebody, and more than just one person, knows something.

I completey agree with the bolded parts (well, and some other parts, too!) I'm trying to find exactly what it was the McCanns were doing in those early days.

Pet ovens?? How would they know where to find a pet oven? Especially a pet oven whose owner would burn plastic bags full of remains, no questions asked. I mean, it's not like they could find it in the Portuguese Yellow Pages.

[teacherbees]

I live in San Diego and participated in the searches for Danielle. Brenda, Damon or other close family were always there when I was.

[STEADFAST]

I live in San Diego and participated in the searches for Danielle. The Brenda, Damon or other close family were alaws there when I was.

That does seem to be what innocent family members do.

[KOOL LOOK]

I completey agree with the bolded parts (well, and some other parts, too!) I'm trying to find exactly what it was the McCanns were doing in those early days.

That's what eats away at me. We have seen alot of these searches, what the family goes through and how they react all in our comfortable living rooms. Their behavior is way off.

Pet ovens?? How would they know where to find a pet oven? Especially a pet oven whose owner would burn plastic bags full of remains, no questions asked. I mean, it's not like they could find it in the Portuguese Yellow Pages.

Agreed. It was brought up in a thread somewhere on here today.

I live in San Diego and participated in the searches for Danielle. The Brenda, Damon or other close family were alaws there when I was.

That's another one of my points exactly.

[shrinkydink]

Pet ovens?? How would they know where to find a pet oven? Especially a pet oven whose owner would burn plastic bags full of remains, no questions asked. I mean, it's not like they could find it in the Portuguese Yellow Pages.

More importantly, how do you know if the pet oven owner is telling the truth?

In future, should you truly need a pet oven , ask your vet. They know where they are.

Shrinky

[CaliKid]

I can believe that the local cops might allow that to happen possibly, but the ones from Lisbon? I don't see how the McCanns could shove a theory down their throats or be in control of what options the police had.

And that's one of the things that made the PJ suspicious about the McCanns. The fact that they wouldn't accept she'd wandered out of the apartment.

[CaliKid]

I live in San Diego and participated in the searches for Danielle. The Brenda, Damon or other close family were alaws there when I was.

I might also add that the Van Dams opened up their lives to close scrutiny, including smoking pot and partner swapping. They allowed themselves to be polygraphed and cleared themselves through their cooperation with LE.

[christine2448]

I just deleted a few posts because the bickering back and forth about links needs to stop!

If you want to research, research, if you don't trust the poster and their source, ignore them. Half of the links in this case so far have been unreliable anyway.

Stop the bickering!


Opposite opinions are welcome! Everyone's view is welcome!

The bickering is NOT welcome!

[STEADFAST]

I might also add that the Van Dams opened up their lives to close scrutiny, including smoking pot and partner swapping. They allowed themselves to be polygraphed and cleared themselves through their cooperation with LE.

I lived in San Diego at the time, too. Many people suspected the Van Damms because of their lifestyle choices. People even thought they acted guilty -- tense and worried. It took a lot to shake that impression out of many people's minds.

[STEADFAST]

And that's one of the things that made the PJ suspicious about the McCanns. The fact that they wouldn't accept she'd wandered out of the apartment.

Okay, then, here's some speculation for you. Do you suppose they may have tied her to the bed to keep her from wandering around? But say they didn't tie her to the bed, say they killed her -- why would they not just go along with the idea that she had wandered away? How would making up a kidnapping help them?

[colomom]

Okay, then, here's some speculation for you. Do you suppose they may have tied her to the bed to keep her from wandering around? But say they didn't tie her to the bed, say they killed her -- why would they not just go along with the idea that she had wandered away? How would making up a kidnapping help them?

It could garner sympathy and would bolster the victim image that would be important to convincing people.

[STEADFAST]

It could garner sympathy and would bolster the victim image that would be important to convincing people.

I don't know. It would seem pretty tragic either way to me. In fact, I would have thought wandering away would have made a better cover story -- no pesky suspects or crime scenes to be scrutinized. Just an overwhelming mystery. I mean, they couldn't have known right at the first that the police would be incompetent and not secure the room. BTW, I have been searching and searching to find out what it was that the McCanns were doing with their time besides publicly praying and making media appeals and setting up funds. I can't find anything saying that they were actually out looking for her. I think I remember reading somewhere that they walked around looking for her every night, but of course I can't find that when I need it. Still it's not the same as helping the official searchers and volunteer searchers in some way. Handing out bottles of water if nothing else. What about their tapas friends? Did they volunteer as searchers?

[KOOL LOOK]

I don't know. It would seem pretty tragic either way to me. In fact, I would have thought wandering away would have made a better cover story -- no pesky suspects or crime scenes to be scrutinized. Just an overwhelming mystery. I mean, they couldn't have known right at the first that the police would be incompetent and not secure the room. BTW, I have been searching and searching to find out what it was that the McCanns were doing with their time besides publicly praying and making media appeals and setting up funds. I can't find anything saying that they were actually out looking for her. I think I remember reading somewhere that they walked around looking for her every night, but of course I can't find that when I need it. Still it's not the same as helping the official searchers and volunteer searchers in some way. Handing out bottles of water if nothing else. What about their tapas friends? Did they volunteer as searchers?
This is what has hit me like a mack truck about two days ago steadfast. All of a sudden, it's like a bright shining flag waving look look, here's some proof. Proof is in the behavior. It's just really not making sense why the mccans and their family, friends haven't done a thorough search. They haven't to the best of my knowledge. I don't understand how this has flew over everyones radar hinky meters.

[Texana]

There was nothing in any media reports about the Tapas 9 searching. If they did, they did not receive any of the media coverage that the McCanns did. In fact, they seemed to drop off the radar completely.

It wouldn't have been illegal for them to walk around calling Maddie's name, since the McCanns did it, clearly, at 4 a.m, or reportedly did?

Good point.

The Tapas 9 is a big mystery in every way to me.

[wtsn5]

We are not sure what the McCanns did or didn't do. I just wonder if they were told by the police that they were not allowed to help in the search - secrecy laws. I'm not even sure if they had any volunteers looking. Has that ever been stated - I can't remember.
Remember we are not talking about the laws of our own country or what is acceptable in our own country - but it seems too me Portugaul has some strange laws, like it being illegal to hire your own PI - so for some of this it might just be that what they wanted to do they couldn't as it was deemed illegal.
I need to comment on the money that was collected, it was being offered as a reward for Maddies safe return 1.2 million pounds - so no I don't think they ere collecting the money for themselves.

I don't know if they had something to do with this or not - but until all the facts are in I'm not willing to cast judgement.
Also has it been determined where they are getting the DNA match from Maddie. I'n not sure how they can determine if it is Maddie DNA. I have three small kids and I'm not sure if I could hand something over to have it matched 100% to any of my kids.

[Texana]

We are not sure what the McCanns did or didn't do. I just wonder if they were told by the police that they were not allowed to help in the search - secrecy laws. I'm not even sure if they had any volunteers looking. Has that ever been stated - I can't remember.
Remember we are not talking about the laws of our own country or what is acceptable in our own country - but it seems too me Portugaul has some strange laws, like it being illegal to hire your own PI - so for some of this it might just be that what they wanted to do they couldn't as it was deemed illegal.
I need to comment on the money that was collected, it was being offered as a reward for Maddies safe return 1.2 million pounds - so no I don't think they ere collecting the money for themselves.

I don't know if they had something to do with this or not - but until all the facts are in I'm not willing to cast judgement.
Also has it been determined where they are getting the DNA match from Maddie. I'n not sure how they can determine if it is Maddie DNA. I have three small kids and I'm not sure if I could hand something over to have it matched 100% to any of my kids.

There are two funds. One was collected from individual donors and is completely now in the control of the people appointed by the McCanns to oversee it--like a trust. The people overseeing the disbursement of those funds are guardians or administrators, basically, they can approve any expenditure they find appropriate. It is not a charity and not subject to any laws regulating charities, it is a private trust per se.

The reward fund, on the other fund, is more along the lines of funds pledged. The donors toward that have offered the money if and when Madeleine is returned safely. The money until then remains in in the control of the individual pledgers/givers.

Any match to Madeleine's DNA would be from samples given by the parents themselves--toothbrushes, hairbrushes, etc. Even baby teeth saved from teh tooth fairy can and have been used. That is standard procedure. Any sample of biological material would be tested and then compared to the DNA profile already resulting from Madeleine's sample.

It's like a fingerprint sample, only chemically based.

[CaliKid]

All we ever heard about the friends searching was the ambiguous "they" on the night Madeleine went missing. The McCanns were up until at least 4:30 a.m.

I live in San Diego and participated in the searches for Danielle. Brenda, Damon or other close family were always there when I was.

I lived in San Diego at the time, too. Many people suspected the Van Damms because of their lifestyle choices. People even thought they acted guilty -- tense and worried. It took a lot to shake that impression out of many people's minds.

OT, but where did or do you live?

I'm in Vista.

[strach304]

I don't know. It would seem pretty tragic either way to me. In fact, I would have thought wandering away would have made a better cover story -- no pesky suspects or crime scenes to be scrutinized. Just an overwhelming mystery. I mean, they couldn't have known right at the first that the police would be incompetent and not secure the room. BTW, I have been searching and searching to find out what it was that the McCanns were doing with their time besides publicly praying and making media appeals and setting up funds. I can't find anything saying that they were actually out looking for her. I think I remember reading somewhere that they walked around looking for her every night, but of course I can't find that when I need it. Still it's not the same as helping the official searchers and volunteer searchers in some way. Handing out bottles of water if nothing else. What about their tapas friends? Did they volunteer as searchers?


I've been reading on this case mostly on ctv and from what I have seen reported the initial search involved Gerry and other members of the group while Kate stayed with the twins. That was an all nighter till the police called off the search. As for other occasions I have seen photographs where Gerry was in the area giving out posters, going into shops having them displayed as well as talking to people on the street. At some point they did get experts on missing person cases in to advise them. I have seen Gerry say that publicly many times. We know from other cases we've followed that saturating the media with her story is a priority and I believe that is exactly what they were told to do and followed that path in the best effort they knew how to try and find their daughter.

Funny thing to me people saying they are jetsetting all over Europe etc. Consider the differences there and here. We have a state to state seperation in government and then federal law that will also partake in kidnappings that take place here and our states will work in conjuction with each other to solve a case. In Madeleine's case they have a bunch of countries involved where there were sightings as well as suggestions that she was taken to another country. Spain was one, a ferry to Morrocco from Portugal in a hour an half and so on. Logically speaking who should be in charge front and center to run that kind of campaign? I can't think of anyone better than the parents myself.

[april4sky]

City scientist dismisses Maddie drugs claim

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/ed...?id=1487562007 (http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=1487562007)

A CITY forensic scientist has dismissed reports that Portuguese police in the Madeleine McCann case could have found evidence of sedatives in strands of hair.

Asked if there was any way of telling from a sample if a person had died from taking the drug, he said: "No I don't think so. The effect of the drug is much quicker than its metabolism into the hair."
And when asked if it is possible to tell whether a hair sample has come from a living person, he said: "I am not aware of any way that you could tell that, so, in my opinion, it would be nonsensical to say that you can tell that."
http://websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[Rino]

From strands of hair what can be detected would be a history of use, bodily fluids, on the other, would certainly be able to trace amounts in the system at time of death.

[april4sky]

Madeleine McCann Cop Quits Case: disgusted at the way parents treated......he's not the only one.....so am I.

http://www.product-reviews.net/2007/09/17/madeleine-mccann-cop-quits-case-disgusted-at-the-way-parents-treated/

Sousa has said that he is upset how information has been leaked to the local press by local police in Portugal; he said that this is designed to undermine the couple.

Don't know if its true.....but he has gone.

[Rino]

Madeleine McCann Cop Quits Case: disgusted at the way parents treated......he's not the only one.....so am I.


Don't know if its true.....but he has gone.
You can't know if it is true because the article itself condradicts the story you want to beleive.

I can understand people feeling they have been treated unfairly. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

What I can't understand is how you pick and choose what you believe and accuse those who believe differenly of doing just that unjustly :waitasec:

[april4sky]

That's why I said I don't know if its true. Let the reader make up their own mind. I try not to mislead other posters.
As of now we don't have any "facts'...and until its proved differently I will continue to consider them innocent until proven guilty.

[SleuthMom]

Mr. and Mrs. Mc Cann have been named official suspects. I know that it does NOT make them guilty in the eyes of the law but let's not pretend there is not a possibility that they are involved in Maddie's disappearance, otherwise they would be "clean" and they have been named as official suspects which means, there are THINGS that make the police believe they are involved. Let's not forget that. That's why we are here to unveil and discover what are some of those things that make the Mc Canns involved in the disappearance of their daughter and find out what happened to little Madeleine.

[christine2448]

As of now we don't have any "facts'...and until its proved differently I will continue to consider them innocent until proven guilty.

I respectfully disagree w/this statement.

I believe there is 1 known fact, the McCanns left their very young children unattended for a period of time, on more than one occasion, which contributed to whatever happened to Maddie. They are guilty of that. They are guilty of getting this whole ball rolling, whether they are resposbile for her death, if she is dead, I can't say, but there is most certianly one proven fact and it makes them NOT innocent IMO. (still swaying on the fence about the rest of it, back and forth, to and fro, until we know what the real evidence is)

[SleuthMom]

Adding to what Christine said, another FACT is that they were made official suspects.

[Rino]

That's why I said I don't know if its true. Let the reader make up their own mind. I try not to mislead other posters.

Are you sure?

One paragraph totally contradicts what you thought was important enough to quote in a 3 paragraph article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2473974.ece

Meanwhile, the official spokesman for the Polícia Judiciária has left the inquiry team. Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa has said that there was no need for a police spokesman as the case was now being handled by the office of the Public Prosecutor.

-------------------------------------
The article also tells how the judge in the case has not asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal rather to be questioned instead by British police about the night their daughter disappeared from her Algarve holiday home.

Leicestershire police will be sent a list of all the questions that the Portuguese authorities want the McCanns to be asked, together with details of the related evidence, according to the Correio da Manhã newspaper.

[Texana]

Are you sure?

One paragraph totally contradicts what you thought was important enough to quote in a 3 paragraph article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2473974.ece

Meanwhile, the official spokesman for the Polícia Judiciária has left the inquiry team. Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa has said that there was no need for a police spokesman as the case was now being handled by the office of the Public Prosecutor.

-------------------------------------
The article also tells how the judge in the case has not asked for the McCanns to return to Portugal rather to be questioned instead by British police about the night their daughter disappeared from her Algarve holiday home.

Leicestershire police will be sent a list of all the questions that the Portuguese authorities want the McCanns to be asked, together with details of the related evidence, according to the Correio da Manhã newspaper.

Exactly Rino, the last paragraph gives a completely different slant to the story, and is the only paragraph that actually quotes a speaker by name. The other paragraphs refer to "stories."

[CaliKid]

I am bringing this post from one of our newbies over here because I think ny very ably puts into words how many of us feel.

There is no conclusive proof (yet) that the McCanns did it. There is no conclusive proof (yet) that there was an abduction. IF the McCanns did it, they are not victims, they are perpetrators. IF it was an abduction, the McCanns put her in harm's way by their own negligence/studpidity. While that doesn't excuse the abductor's actions/guilt, it doesn't change the fact that they failed to do their job as parents. Madeleine is the victim here, as are the twins. What if she had died in a fire or some other accident because she was left on her own? Would we be seeing them as victims then? And they have repeatedly justified that behavior, saying they were responsible parents. They had an opportunity to educate other people about how to keep their children safe, but they can't admit their own failure in this regard that they weren't responsible to leave 3 children under 4 alone in an unlocked hotel room where they couldn't see/hear them.

Given the lack of conclusive proof, people are going to look at their behavior such as the smiling. Or blogging about haircuts & jogging. Or releasing photos of one's own wedding/communion. Does any of that prove their guilt? No. Does it raise suspicions among many of us? Yes. To me, that seems more like people seeking publicity for its own sake or trying to win our sympathies, at best. At worst, it may be intended to distract our attention from their possible involvment. I was inclined to believe the parents' innocence at the beginning. But their behavior is leading me to doubt their innocence.

The police have to look at all the evidence, even if it might incriminate the parents. In fact, I think what the PJ did wrong was not considering all possibilities (parental involvement as well as abduction) from the start. That might have preserved evidence which may have either cleared or implicated the McCanns. Everyone at the resort should've been thoroughly interviewed.

So, I think the main question is what is the best way to bring Madeleine McCann home safe (if she's alive) or bring those responsible to justice if she isn't alive?

Apparently, the local police in the UK are going to ask her the 40 questions she wouldn't answer:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wmaddy517.xml

That's a good start. I consider it reasonable to be nervous about answering questions in a foreign country where you don't understand the laws, but now she's home & it's the local police/legal system, she should be more co-operative. If not, that's very telling in and of itself.

[april4sky]

Have McCann Cops Gone Out On A Limb?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1284525,00.html

Portuguese police may have "gone out on a limb" by accusing Madeleine McCann's parents over her alleged death, Portuguese newspapers are speculating.

"There are suggestions, hint perhaps, in Portuguese media that, if the Portuguese police are wrong, they are going to be made to look very foolish."

[mrsmousemat]

"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.[/quote]

**********************************


Hello April4sky - still the voice of reason I see...

There is one reason why the McCanns have remained cool and slightly impassive during TV interviews.

If they believed that their child was taken by a paedophile they would have been advised to show as little emotion as possible.

Apparently if they showed anger, it would anger the paedophile who has control of their daughter, and if they showed distress it would please him/her as it's apparently a control/power thing.

Sadly even impassioned pleases do not seem to help much. A recent case where a child was shot in Britain and where the parents made very impassioned pleas for witnesses has resulted in none coming forward.

So it doesn't seeem that even very distraught pleas by parents who have lost their children make much difference, which, I feel, is find particularly sad.

[docwho3]

Have McCann Cops Gone Out On A Limb?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1284525,00.html

Portuguese police may have "gone out on a limb" by accusing Madeleine McCann's parents over her alleged death, Portuguese newspapers are speculating.

"There are suggestions, hint perhaps, in Portuguese media that, if the Portuguese police are wrong, they are going to be made to look very foolish." I remember that just before all the big developments hit the fan in this case I had posted to the effect that I was going out on a limb and show some faith in the L.E. both Portuguese and Brit and I remember that someone posted in response that did not seem like I was really going out on a limb much. I wonder if that poster still thinks that way. (Smiling to myself over that one. It turned out to be a thinner limb than it seemed.)

Still I am yet holding out hope that no matter how many really strange twists and turns this case takes (and I believe more are yet to come) the truth will eventually be known.

[Shazza]

"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.

**********************************


Hello April4sky - still the voice of reason I see...

There is one reason why the McCanns have remained cool and slightly impassive during TV interviews.

If they believed that their child was taken by a paedophile they would have been advised to show as little emotion as possible.

Apparently if they showed anger, it would anger the paedophile who has control of their daughter, and if they showed distress it would please him/her as it's apparently a control/power thing.

Sadly even impassioned pleases do not seem to help much. A recent case where a child was shot in Britain and where the parents made very impassioned pleas for witnesses has resulted in none coming forward.

So it doesn't seeem that even very distraught pleas by parents who have lost their children make much difference, which, I feel, is find particularly sad.[/quote]
Could you please tell me where it has been said by any posters that the McCanns do not cry in private. We dont know what goes on behing closed doors, and I do not recall anyone saying what you are implying in the bolded statement made by you.

[april4sky]

I respectfully disagree w/this statement.

I believe there is 1 known fact, the McCanns left their very young children unattended for a period of time, on more than one occasion, which contributed to whatever happened to Maddie. They are guilty of that. They are guilty of getting this whole ball rolling, whether they are resposbile for her death, if she is dead, I can't say, but there is most certianly one proven fact and it makes them NOT innocent IMO. (still swaying on the fence about the rest of it, back and forth, to and fro, until we know what the real evidence is)


Christine, I agree the McCanns are guilty of leaving their children. I have never denied that and I have said it time and again on here.

Beyond that though I am not on the fence.
I believe they are innocent, and until, and if it's proven differently I will continue to believe it.
I have yet to hear any confirmed "evidence" against them. All we have had are rumors and inuendo and smears. Usually via PLE leaks.

And the more I hear of the tactics of the PLE and their calculated leaks the less trust I have in them.
Especially now that we hear Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral the detective handling the Madeleine case is under investigation himself about the torture of Leonor Cipriano the mother of another missing little girl.

[april4sky]

**********************************



Could you please tell me where it has been said by any posters that the McCanns do not cry in private. We dont know what goes on behing closed doors, and I do not recall anyone saying what you are implying in the bolded statement made by you.

Hi Shazza,

Those were not my words Shazza.
I'm not guilty :silenced: That statement is from the following interesting article.

A different view, "near the bottom of the article", of the McCanns. And a lot more believable than the usual critical view IMO. The Rev Haynes has been with them many times since Madeleine disapeared.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...page_id=181 1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482007&in_page_id=1811)


Rev Hubbard Haynes, the Anglican vicar who lives in Praia da Luz and got closer to the McCanns than anyone during their months in Portugal.

A young, passionate Canadian, who took up his post a week after Madeleine's disappearance said.

"All I can say is that my tears are as nothing to the tears I have seen shed by Kate and Gerry.
"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.

[Shazza]

Hi Shazza,

Those were not my words Shazza.
I'm not guilty :silenced: That statement is from the following interesting article.

A different view, "near the bottom of the article", of the McCanns. And a lot more believable than the usual critical view IMO. The Rev Haynes has been with them many times since Madeleine disapeared.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...page_id=181 1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482007&in_page_id=1811)


Rev Hubbard Haynes, the Anglican vicar who lives in Praia da Luz and got closer to the McCanns than anyone during their months in Portugal.

A young, passionate Canadian, who took up his post a week after Madeleine's disappearance said.

"All I can say is that my tears are as nothing to the tears I have seen shed by Kate and Gerry.
"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.

Hi April, I was quoting mrsmousemat, but thankyou for the link.

[april4sky]

Hello April4sky - still the voice of reason I see...

There is one reason why the McCanns have remained cool and slightly impassive during TV interviews.

If they believed that their child was taken by a paedophile they would have been advised to show as little emotion as possible.

Apparently if they showed anger, it would anger the paedophile who has control of their daughter, and if they showed distress it would please him/her as it's apparently a control/power thing.

Sadly even impassioned pleases do not seem to help much. A recent case where a child was shot in Britain and where the parents made very impassioned pleas for witnesses has resulted in none coming forward.

So it doesn't seeem that even very distraught pleas by parents who have lost their children make much difference, which, I feel, is find particularly sad.

Hi mrsmousemat. Nice to see you posting again.

I had read the McCann's were advised in the beginning not to show too much emotion in their TV interviews.
And even though they were in an emotional state they knew they couldn't let themselves fall apart as this wouldn't help Madeleine.
------------
The case of that little boy being shot dead in Liverpool recently is very sad.
I suspect the police probably know who did it but can't yet prove it.
There are just so many gangs now that people are afraid to speak out.
Sadly it will just keep getting worse until enough of the public decide they've had enough.

[ny_]

I had read the McCann's were advised in the beginning not to show too much emotion in their TV interviews.

I don't expect them to cry for the public/cameras as proof of innocence because, in addition to whatever advice they may have been given, everyone handles the intense emotions this would bring out differently. Some people get stoic, some people go on autopilot, etc.

What strikes me as odd is the smiling. Now I can understand smiling with the twins, it's probably the only solace they have now & I wouldn't begrudge them that. But there seems to be an awful lot of smiling in addition to that (e.g. while holding a shirt with her photo, meeting dignitaries, in cars, etc.). As I said in another thread, maybe it's a nervous reaction of some sort. Does it make them guilty? Not in and of itself. But it is odd and it does make me wonder. As well as all of the publicity seeking unrelated to getting Madeline's image out there (for example, the McCanns releasing their wedding photos & photos of family images on Sunday).

[april4sky]

Hi April, I was quoting mrsmousemat, but thankyou for the link.


Your welcome.
My fault sorry, I thought you were asking me. :waitasec:

[Shazza]

I don't expect them to cry for the public/cameras as proof of innocence because, in addition to whatever advice they may have been given, everyone handles the intense emotions this would bring out differently. Some people get stoic, some people go on autopilot, etc.

What strikes me as odd is the smiling. Now I can understand smiling with the twins, it's probably the only solace they have now & I wouldn't begrudge them that. But there seems to be an awful lot of smiling in addition to that (e.g. while holding a shirt with her photo, meeting dignitaries, in cars, etc.). As I said in another thread, maybe it's a nervous reaction of some sort. Does it make them guilty? Not in and of itself. But it is odd and it does make me wonder. As well as all of the publicity seeking unrelated to getting Madeline's image out there (for example, the McCanns releasing their wedding photos & photos of family images on Sunday).
Thats right ny, smiling is an emotion, they seem to smile a lot when doing something that really doesnt help Madelaine, then while being interviewed or photos taken whilst on all their journeys they are smiling again, they obviously enjoy the camera being on them when it suits them.

[ny_]

Correction/clarification, to my previous post, the images of family members were for the most part other family members, such as the parents/grandparents. The only ones of Madeleine they released on Sunday were either older ones where she was younger & looked a little different or ones which had already been relased. People have limited attention spans and they're only going to absorb so much, so that's why I think they should've limited any photo release to current ones of her (or as someone suggested, sorry, I forgot who or I'd note it) composites of what she might look like with a changed appearance. Her image is needed in the public focus to bring her back (if she has been abducted). Not her parents, not her grandparents.

[april4sky]

I don't expect them to cry for the public/cameras as proof of innocence because, in addition to whatever advice they may have been given, everyone handles the intense emotions this would bring out differently. Some people get stoic, some people go on autopilot, etc.

What strikes me as odd is the smiling. Now I can understand smiling with the twins, it's probably the only solace they have now & I wouldn't begrudge them that. But there seems to be an awful lot of smiling in addition to that (e.g. while holding a shirt with her photo, meeting dignitaries, in cars, etc.). As I said in another thread, maybe it's a nervous reaction of some sort. Does it make them guilty? Not in and of itself. But it is odd and it does make me wonder. As well as all of the publicity seeking unrelated to getting Madeline's image out there (for example, the McCanns releasing their wedding photos & photos of family images on Sunday).

Hello ny,
I agree that everyone handles their emotions differently. I think photo's can be very misleading too. They are bound to be seen smiling occasionally. It doesn't mean they are not heartbroken.
And we don't know if it was the McCann's themselves...At least I don't...who released the recent photo's. It could have been family members or friends of theirs.

[SleuthMom]

they obviously enjoy the camera being on them when it suits them.

To me is odd they like the "camera" period - They are not celebrities. Having a MISSING child and liking the camera as much as they do, says a lot about someone. It does NOT make them murderers (we all agree with that) but heck is disgusting!

[Shazza]

Your welcome.
My fault sorry, I thought you were asking me. :waitasec:
No worries I wasnt having a go at you, my post was was kind of right next to what mrsmousemat was writing to you. I should have spaced it better.:)

[ny_]

And we don't know if it was the McCann's themselves...At least I don't...who released the recent photo's. It could have been family members or friends of theirs.

The link I saw on Sunday The Times indicated the family had released those photos. It's towards the middle of the middle column of this link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/system/topicRoot/Madeleine/

The text by the link says:
The McCanns today released new family photos to keep hunt for Madeleine alive

While it doesn't specify which McCanns, I found at least 2 references to Kate & Gerry McCann in a couple of other publications:

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=pictures-of-wedding-joy&method=full&objectid=19798129&siteid=93463-name_page.html


Kate and Gerry McCann yesterday [Sunday] released previously unseen family photos, including one of their wedding day.
The couple are seen looking ecstatic at their ceremony in 1998. With huge beaming smiles they are seen cuddling their baby god-daughter, Ellie.
Other photos show them together at a pal's wedding and Gerry with close friend Linda McQueen at her wedding. The McCanns also released a favourite photo of Madeleine, taken in 2005 when she was two years old.

It shows the blonde youngster smiling broadly and holding on to a blue scarf around her neck.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/17/maddy-judge-let-me-speak-89520-19800944/



The McCanns yesterday [Sunday] released pictures [one of the series] of Kate's parents Brian and Sue Healy and Gerry's sister Trisha Cameron reading some of the 1,000 letters of support arriving daily.


As for smiling, if it were the odd photo here or there, that would be one thing. But there's more than the odd photo here & there. Again, it may be a nervous reaction, but that does seem to counter any advice they've been giving about showing emotion.

[april4sky]

As for smiling, if it were the odd photo here or there, that would be one thing. But there's more than the odd photo here & there. Again, it may be a nervous reaction, but that does seem to counter any advice they've been giving about showing emotion.


Hi ny,

I really don't see what the big deal is if they did release the photo's. They may have been advised to by their PR person. "Who they definately need to try to give some balance to all the rumors and smears" and show them in a different light as they have been demonised for a while now.

And as for being critical of them smiling too much.
I would rather believe "who" they really are from someone who has spent a lot of time with them since Madeleine went missing. The Rev Haynes.

A different view, "near the bottom of the article", of the McCanns. And a lot more believable than the usual critical view.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...page_id=181 1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=482007&in_page_id=1811)


Rev Hubbard Haynes, the Anglican vicar who lives in Praia da Luz and got closer to the McCanns than anyone during their months in Portugal.

A young, passionate Canadian, who took up his post a week after Madeleine's disappearance said.

"All I can say is that my tears are as nothing to the tears I have seen shed by Kate and Gerry.
"They may not have cried for the cameras, but to say they do not weep in private is facile and offensive.
"The man and woman I have known for the past four months are a couple whose lives have become unbearably empty because their little girl was missing. "I do not recognise those people in recent media reports, and I find the idea that they had anything to do with her disappearance just inconceivable.

[SleuthMom]

Hi ny,

I really don't see what the big deal is if they did release the photo's. They may have been advised to by their PR person. "Who they definately need to try to give some balance to all the rumors and smears" and show them in a different light as they have been demonised for a while now.


I do see it as a big deal because they need to decide what they want to do. For one side, they said they want the Media to focus on Madeleine but by the other side they release pics of Kate's first communion and wedding picture? :rolleyes: Sorry, but WHO CARES???? How is that going to HELP FIND MADELEINE???? IF (as they said) they want the Media attention on MADELEINE, then what the heck are they doing? That's all the opposite to me. It seems to me that the reason for the release of pics is to look for empathy/support after the amount of criticism they are receiving, again...ALL about THEM. Such an odd behavior coming from "concerned" parents whose daughter still missing. :confused:

[ny_]

My issue with the family releasing those photos is that it's going to clutter people's memories with images which are NOT Madeleine, at least not as she looks now. Which, if she has been abducted & they're trying to bring her home safely, makes no sense. While it's not a perfect analogy, think of the human mind/memory as sort of a bulletin board like this. As new threads are added, they bump the first ones down until they're off the page. Releasing photos of other family members is sorting of like adding new threads until the threads with her photos are bumped down/off the first page.

People are going to have things like the McCanns wedding photos & Kate McCann's communion photos in their mind when they should have images of Madeline in their mind. That is, if the abduction theory is true and there's still a possibility of her coming home. To me, that seems to be more about the publicity and manipulating our sympathy. Or it could be an attempt to distract us from their involvement (I'm still not 100% sure that they're involved, just leaning towards it).

Don't get me wrong, I think if they've been falsely accused, they need to defend themselves. I completely agree with and understand hiring a lawyer, I'd do the same in their shoes. I understand the family statements by Aunt Phil, etc. And I understand their making statements to the press initially. But why the continued blitz which is going to take attention away from their daughter? Why the calls to editors & politicians? From the coverage I've read, the calls to politicians & editors haven't been, "let's keep looking for Madeleine" but more along the lines of "we're innocent". Let the lawyers do their jobs and leave it at that. Branson's backing their legal defense, they've got the best lawyers money can buy, let them earn their fees. If my daughter had gone missing, sure I'd be concerned with staying out of prison so I could continue to look for her & be a parent to my remaining children. But I wouldn't really care what the media/public thought of me. That wouldn't be a priority for me. It seems to be pretty high on the priority list for the McCanns. There's always going to be innuendo & gossip in these cases. It's a long battle for the truth to come out. I'd be digging in my heels for the long haul & focusing on finding my kid, not my public rep. But that's just me.

As to the smiles part, I think it may be going a bit off topic of "fencesitters & not guilty", which is the focus of this one so I'll just post a link to another post I've made in another thread if you're interested in reading it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1684324&postcount=153

I have no doubt the Rev. believes they are grief stricken. And if the accidental death theory is true, they'd probably feel even more grief than if she'd been abducted. People believed Susan Smith was grief stricken too, and Scott Peterson, and Matthew Solomon & Christine Lane. Yet it turns out all 4 of them were ultimately the ones responsible for the death of their loved ones.

Christine Lane & Matthew Solomon aren't as familiar as the other 2, so here's brief NY Times blurbs about those cases:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDF153CF930A15751C0A9669582 60

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE0DF173EF937A35751C0A96F9482 60

I lived about an hour & half or so away from where the Lane crime took place at the time. So there was a lot of local media coverage. The mother left one mitten on the ground near their home & mailed the other to herself with a ransom note. Went on tv & cried for her daughter back. There was something off about her eyes, same as Scott Peterson & Susan Smith. Same with Matthew Solomon's pleas for the cameras. Now, I haven't gotten this from every missing person's case. Never could figure out the Ramseys one way or the other. Didn't get it at all from the Van Dams or the Klaas family or the Smarts. Honestly, I tried to avoid detailed coverage of this case at first because I find these cases very upsetting.

But I started following it when the parents were charged. Now granted, I saw it after I knew they were suspects, but something seems off about Gerry McCann's eyes quite a bit & Kate McCann to a lesser extent. I know that's purely subjective & speculation. The main things that are keeping me 100% from being convinced it's them are:

1) they've kept up the story for so long. While Peterson kept up his story, Smith, Lane & Solomon all cracked within a month.

2) the timeframe, if they were involved in her death (and if so, I'm leaning towards an accident from her being left on her own). It would be difficult to move/dispose of a body in that limited time. But maybe that's where the man carrying a child in a blanket comes in. But that also fits in with abduction. Providing it was a reliable account.

[docwho3]

The parents are in a tough position. If innocent they need to focus attention on the search for Madeleine but the media and L.E. has shifted focus to the mother more than anything else. If innocent they must feel they need to do something to restore the good name of the mother or at least put some good information about her into the media in order to get people to stop the feeding frenzy of hate against the mother so they can then pay more attention to the search for Madeleine.

If they are guilty they may just be hoping to keep the appearance of innocence to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of any jury or judge that might be hearing the case in the future. In either case (guilt or innocence) I think it was necessary to put out some good PR about the accused mother even it if was not what some members of the public wanted them to do.

[april4sky]

I do see it as a big deal because they need to decide what they want to do. For one side, they said they want the Media to focus on Madeleine but by the other side they release pics of Kate's first communion and wedding picture? :rolleyes: Sorry, but WHO CARES???? How is that going to HELP FIND MADELEINE???? IF (as they said) they want the Media attention on MADELEINE, then what the heck are they doing? That's all the opposite to me. It seems to me that the reason for the release of pics is to look for empathy/support after the amount of criticism they are receiving, again...ALL about THEM. Such an odd behavior coming from "concerned" parents whose daughter still missing. :confused:

If i've learned nothing else in the last few weeks it's that whatever the McCann's do it won't please some people. They will always be damned if they do and damned if they don't. And personally I think just for the sake of it.
You choose to see it as a big deal if they release photo's...I don't. :)

[Rino]

If i've learned nothing else in the last few weeks it's that whatever the McCann's do it won't please some people. They will always be damned if they do and damned if they don't. And personally I think just for the sake of it.
You choose to see it as a big deal if they release photo's...I don't. :)
But why release old photes of Maddie. That certainly will be of no help trying to locate her today or in the future

[AfterMidnight]

The parents are in a tough position. If innocent they need to focus attention on the search for Madeleine but the media and L.E. has shifted focus to the mother more than anything else. If innocent they must feel they need to do something to restore the good name of the mother or at least put some good information about her into the media in order to get people to stop the feeding frenzy of hate against the mother so they can then pay more attention to the search for Madeleine.

If they are guilty they may just be hoping to keep the appearance of innocence to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of any jury or judge that might be hearing the case in the future. In either case (guilt or innocence) I think it was necessary to put out some good PR about the accused mother even it if was not what some members of the public wanted them to do.

Thank you doc. It is so good to hear the voice of sanity.

[ny_]

The Van Dams, particularly Brenda, were subjected to far worse than the McCanns in the old trial by media circus. Yet they put their concerns about image aside to help bring their daughter's killer to justice.

[Rino]

The Van Dams, particularly Brenda, were subjected to far worse than the McCanns in the old trial by media circus. Yet they put their concerns about image aside to help bring their daughter's killer to justice.
Right! In addition they did leave their children unattended and therefore in harms way.

[SleuthMom]

If i've learned nothing else in the last few weeks it's that whatever the McCann's do it won't please some people. They will always be damned if they do and damned if they don't. And personally I think just for the sake of it.
You choose to see it as a big deal if they release photo's...I don't. :)

Oh okay...well I am interested in this question for you:

In your opinion: In what way releasing a wedding pic and a pic of Mrs. Mc Cann on her first communion can help find Madeleine?

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Oh okay...well I am interested in this question for you:

In your opinion: In what way releasing a wedding pic and a pic of Mrs. Mc Cann on her first communion can help find Madeleine?


LOL...I have to say when I saw all those new pictures my hinky meter went off.

Can you imagine Dr. Kates testimony if this ever goes to court? Maybe something like this:

Prosecuting attorney: Dr. McCann, could you tell the court how tall your daughter was they last time you saw her.

Kate McCann: My husband and I where the most beautiful bride and Groom, and looky we where holding a baby, this pictures proves we adore children.

Prosecuting Attorney: Dr. McCann, please, how much did little Maddie weigh when she went missing?

Kate McCann: As you can see by this picture, I am a religious person, and I started taking communion when I was 10 years old.

Prosecuting Attorney: Did Your daughter have any developmental delays?

Kate McCann: This precious wedding picture of my husband and I shows our party side. Notice all the wine glasses on the table? Those where the days my friend, I wish they'd never end!!...Oh that's right, they didn't. We still partied with our friends, we just left our babies home alone while we did it.

[kittykat1]

But why release old photes of Maddie. That certainly will be of no help trying to locate her today or in the future


Photos sell newspapers! Whether young or old, people want to see all the beautiful pictures of her. Perhaps her appearance has been altered and one of the pictures may help someone recognize her.

[Texana]

You can't have it both ways. You can't respond every time someone asks how you feel, for example, about being named a suspect, by saying "that takes away from the focus on Madeleine and finding her, we must stay focused on Madeleine" and then bring forth old photographs--without Madeleine even being in the photos--and present them to the public.

[SleuthMom]

LOL...I have to say when I saw all those new pictures my hinky meter went off.

Can you imagine Dr. Kates testimony if this ever goes to court? Maybe something like this:

Prosecuting attorney: Dr. McCann, could you tell the court how tall your daughter was they last time you saw her.

Kate McCann: My husband and I where the most beautiful bride and Groom, and looky we where holding a baby, this pictures proves we adore children.

Prosecuting Attorney: Dr. McCann, please, how much did little Maddie weigh when she went missing?

Kate McCann: As you can see by this picture, I am a religious person, and I started taking communion when I was 10 years old.

Prosecuting Attorney: Did Your daughter have any developmental delays?

Kate McCann: This precious wedding picture of my husband and I shows our party side. Notice all the wine glasses on the table? Those where the days my friend, I wish they'd never end!!...Oh that's right, they didn't. We still partied with our friends, we just left our babies home alone while we did it.

LOL!! Exactly, I can't believe that people would actually believe these pics would help to find Madeleine. :rolleyes:

[SleuthMom]

You can't have it both ways. You can't respond every time someone asks how you feel, for example, about being named a suspect, by saying "that takes away from the focus on Madeleine and finding her, we must stay focused on Madeleine" and then bring forth old photographs--without Madeleine even being in the photos--and present them to the public.

Thanks for being the voice of reason and common sense! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Texana]

Thanks for being the voice of reason and common sense! :clap: :clap: :clap:

:blowkiss: right back atcha

[docwho3]

The parents are in a tough position. If innocent they need to focus attention on the search for Madeleine but the media and L.E. has shifted focus to the mother more than anything else. If innocent they must feel they need to do something to restore the good name of the mother or at least put some good information about her into the media in order to get people to stop the feeding frenzy of hate against the mother so they can then pay more attention to the search for Madeleine.

If they are guilty they may just be hoping to keep the appearance of innocence to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of any jury or judge that might be hearing the case in the future. In either case (guilt or innocence) I think it was necessary to put out some good PR about the accused mother even it if was not what some members of the public wanted them to do.

Thank you doc. It is so good to hear the voice of sanity.

You are most wlecome. I try. :)

[teacherbees]

I just saw your question on this thread - I live in Penasquitos...not far at all from where the VanDams lived.

[gord]

Oh okay...well I am interested in this question for you:

In your opinion: In what way releasing a wedding pic and a pic of Mrs. Mc Cann on her first communion can help find Madeleine?

it keeps the story in the news - gets headlines - thats all . Maddy is still being spoken about - it is not being buried , whatever it takes if she is an abduction you want a news story every day

[april4sky]

Oh okay...well I am interested in this question for you:

In your opinion: In what way releasing a wedding pic and a pic of Mrs. Mc Cann on her first communion can help find Madeleine?

SleuthMom I think gord said it well in her reply when she said the photo's will keep Madeleine's story in the press and talked about...whatever it takes.
That makes sense to me!!!!

I have no problem with the parents being looked at by the police. It should happens in every case and rightly so.

What I do have a problem with however is the damage done to the search for Madeleine by the calculated "IMO" rumors, inuendo and smears, often by the PLE breaking their own secrecy law.

Do you really think they are still searching for a "live" Madeleine?

[april4sky]

End this witch hunt and find Madeleine

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/parsons/2007/09/17/end-this-witch-hunt-and-find-madeleine-89520-19801006/

The real crime and the real tragedy is that nobody is looking for Madeleine McCann anymore.
That little girl is out there somewhere, either dead or alive.

A lot of the innuendo and propaganda that the Portuguese cops have slipped to their flunkies in the Portuguese press turns out to have absolutely no basis in the real world. We were informed that the woman who lives above the apartment where the McCanns were staying often heard Madeleine crying and "sounds of violence."
Now the real woman - Pamela Fenn, 81 - says that these claims are "absolute rubbish."

Reports of hair in the hire car, blood on the curtains, the 'smell of death' in the apartment - none of these lurid titbits prove that Madeleine McCann is dead, and still less that her parents murdered her.
Forensic experts in this country say that all the evidence stacked up against the McCanns would never lead to a conviction in a British court.

[Shazza]

In one of the other threads in this forum wasnt the mirror said to be a rag newspaper, can we trust the story printed about stopping the witch hunt in Aprils Post.

I am not saying that it is true or false, what I am asking is "Is the UK mirror a reliable source for information or are they just out to sell more papers".

I wish we knew one way or the other what happened to Madelaine and where she is.

[Texana]

Any "private" photos of the McCanns such as Communion or wedding or family pics of Madeleine absolutely come with their approval and knowledge--especially when the friends being interviewed are named and quoted directly.

Giving out the photos without the McCanns' approval would be tantamount to ending any friendship or relationship.

But again, you can't have it both ways. You can't withdraw under the "talking about me will hurt Madeleine" umbrella when someone asks details about that night, or about the allegations against you, and then whip out a wedding photo.

A wedding photo in which you are, conveniently holding and smiling at a baby.

This isn't about finding Madeleine, it's about keeping the twins and staying out of some Portuguese prison.

[SleuthMom]

[quote=april4sky;1688045

Do you really think they are still searching for a "live" Madeleine?[/quote]

I suppose everything boils down to how much you trust the Portuguese police.
I believe these people have been trained to perform the kind of job they do every single day. So if based on their investigation and research, they find that there is a big possibility that Madeleine is not alive but dead then they need to follow that lead, that's common sense to me.

[april4sky]

In one of the other threads in this forum wasnt the mirror said to be a rag newspaper, can we trust the story printed about stopping the witch hunt in Aprils Post.

I am not saying that it is true or false, what I am asking is "Is the UK mirror a reliable source for information or are they just out to sell more papers".

I wish we knew one way or the other what happened to Madelaine and where she is.

Hi Sazza,

The Mirror is a tabloid. But no more or less a "rag" as you put it than any other tabloid.

The article is just one journalists "opinion" of what has been happening to the McCann's with the result being that the real crime and the real tragedy is that nobody is looking for Madeleine McCann anymore.


An opinion I fully agree with.

[Shazza]

Hi Sazza,

The Mirror is a tabloid. But no more or less a "rag" as you put it than any other tabloid.

The article is just one journalists "opinion" of what has been happening to the McCann's with the result being that the real crime and the real tragedy is that nobody is looking for Madeleine McCann anymore.


An opinion I fully agree with.
It sure does look like Madelaine has been put on the back burner, if she was my daughter I would still be out there hunting high and low.
I hope this isnt one of those cases that goes on and on and on and find nothing.
I have had a big day and very tired, so I will catch you later April.

[april4sky]

I suppose everything boils down to how much you trust the Portuguese police.
I believe these people have been trained to perform the kind of job they do every single day. So if based on their investigation and research, they find that there is a big possibility that Madeleine is not alive but dead then they need to follow that lead, that's common sense to me.
Do you mean they should only follow the one "lead" ? Because there's a big possibility she's dead but no proof!!
And if they are wrong. Poor Madeleine.

I don't think so. :(

[Rino]

End this witch hunt and find Madeleine

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/parsons/2007/09/17/end-this-witch-hunt-and-find-madeleine-89520-19801006/

The real crime and the real tragedy is that nobody is looking for Madeleine McCann anymore.
That little girl is out there somewhere, either dead or alive.



That could be said for the McCanns as well.

The author of this piece admits "I don't believe for one second that they did it. If they did, then they are the greatest actors who ever lived."

Hmmm, no media bias here right? He's completely objective - not!!

[Jdee]

Sounds like both to me but I have been much the same way. One day I think the McCann's are guilty then the next I don't. I know they lied about some things that happened that night. I don't think they really ever actually looked for their daughter. We discussed this in the very first thread why when it was reported that Madeleine was in Morroco didn't they hire teenagers to passout flyers in Morroco? They had plenty of money to do so. So that makes me wonder. But if they did it I can't fathom hiding the body for so many days or killing her then going out to eat and chat it up with friends or hanging with the Pope.
Just too much wierd stuff here.... and no answers and no Madeleine.

[christine2448]

This is a discussion, attack the posts, not the poster. Everything is open for dicussion. Everyone's opinions will be heard.

Start getting along or some of you are going to be sitting in the corner for a few days.

[april4sky]

BODY OF GIRL, 5, FOUND

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found


THE body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland.


Ylenia Llenard was snatched from a public swimming pool in the Swiss town of Appenzell on July 31.
--------
Very sad. The perp involved in this was in the Algarve at the same time as the McCanns.

[SleuthMom]

I do not see the connection between this girl and Maddie's disappearance at all. No serious link was ever connected.

Do you mean they should only follow the one "lead" ? Because there's a big possibility she's dead but no proof!!

I say follow the lead that the professionals (police) who have been investigating and working on this case) consider that should be followed. THEY are the ones working on this case. There is NO proof that she was kidnapped either.

We are speaking about Police resources here and I am sure there are limited so I trust the police will follow the lead based on their investigations. Since the Mc Canns have been named official suspects, it is within the rights of the Police to follow that lead.

[AfterMidnight]

LE might want to find out if Urs Von Aesch, the perp in the Swiss case, rented the car before the McCanns.

[christine2448]

I do not see the connection between this girl and Maddie's disappearance at all. No serious link was ever connected.



Is this the link, the abductor was same place/time as the McCanns?

Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May.

[docwho3]

Someone asked what the connection could be between a body in Switzerland and this case so here is one connection which I have bolded:

". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

If this were any other case people would be quite interested in this apparent "coincidence" of a person we now know has killed a 5 years old having been on vacation at the same place and at the same time that little 3 years old Madeleine goes missing. Personally I want to see more of this possibility looked into by L.E.

[christine2448]

LE might want to find out if Urs Von Aesch, the perp in the Swiss case, rented the car before the McCanns.

What are the chances??? Wouldn't that be something?? OMG, I just don't know what I am hoping the out come to be, parents or abductor, overdosed or molested, it's horrible, both, but I hope a molestor didn't get her..or has her, or killed her.

Has anyone researched this guy? I haven't heard of this other girl till now, or if I have, I don't remember :rolleyes: Is this truly a possibility?

[christine2448]

Someone asked what the connection could be between a body in Switzerland and this case so here is one connection which I have bolded:

". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

If this were any other case people would be quite interested in this apparent "coincidence" of a person we now know has killed a 5 years old having been on vacation at the same place and at the same time that little 3 years old Madeleine goes missing. Personally I want to see more of this possibility looked into by L.E.


We were posting at the same time...I agree if this coincendence is there, this should certianly be investigated fully...shall we start a thread and see what our posters can come up with ;)

[christine2448]

We were posting at the same time...I agree if this coincendence is there, this should certianly be investigated fully...shall we start a thread and see what our posters can come up with ;)


Thread here

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1688619#post1688619

[Rino]

We were posting at the same time...I agree if this coincendence is there, this should certianly be investigated fully...shall we start a thread and see what our posters can come up with ;)

(snip)
Investigating officers said they had reopened several cases of missing children dating from the 1980s in Switzerland.

They refused, however, to confirm reports in Swiss newspapers that there could be a link between the disappearance of Ylenia and British girl Madeleine McCann, who was reported missing in Portugal in May.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22429527-12377,00.html


This man was a monster, maybe many times over. Still looking for a possible link to Maddie.....

[docwho3]

We were posting at the same time...I agree if this coincendence is there, this should certianly be investigated fully...shall we start a thread and see what our posters can come up with ;) Good idea. Thanks for starting the new thread.

Lumping a couple of your posts together and responding in this one post- hope you don't mind:

. . .OMG, I just don't know what I am hoping the out come to be, parents or abductor, overdosed or molested, it's horrible, both, but I hope a molestor didn't get her..or has her, or killed her. . .

I know what you mean. I don't hope it is either possibility as I suppose neither of us really "hopes" either bad thing happened but we know the probabilities are that something bad really happened and it is hard to figure which possibility is the most likely. This case keeps getting farther into the twilight zone.

[SleuthMom]

Thanks for the info guys. It is a possibility but a weak one in my opinion (compared to what it seems they found in the Mc Cann's car) unless the police can find something more.

[docwho3]

Thanks for the info guys. It is a possibility but a weak one in my opinion (compared to what it seems they found in the Mc Cann's car) unless the police can find something more.

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The original links were posted first by colomom and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.

[SleuthMom]

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The original links were posted first by colomom and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.


Thanks! Great info! :) It DOES seems like a connection. The ONLY question I have is that I still think that the evidence of the smell the cadaver dogs found in the Mc Cann's car seem to be stronger than this co