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View Full Version : WA - Unidentified Male: "Lyle Stevik", Grays Harbor, 17 Sept 2001 - #3


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outofthedark
09-18-2007, 03:17 PM
I started another thread because the other one is now closed- so this thread is continuing the last one. So whoever was going to post on the now closed 30+ page thread can post here

LisainWV
09-18-2007, 09:17 PM
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/233umwa.html


Let's start it out with his doepage so we can refer back for his photo, info and such.

cold case lady
09-18-2007, 10:45 PM
I think the crime scene photo's from the thread that just ended would also be helpful.there on page 10.i don't know how to bring it over:slap:

outofthedark
09-18-2007, 11:43 PM
Here's two Photobucket accounts. One has crime scene photos and other has an autopsy photo:

Docwho3: http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/
cjpix2006: http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q65/cjpix2006/

Lyle's autopsy photo is in the 6th row of the cjpix2006 photo album
The Docwho3 photo album is all Lyle stuff

cold case lady
09-19-2007, 02:37 AM
was wondering if anyone has read or seen doco's about multiple personalities(i know there are to many to mention),can't think of the name of it but this one woman would do endless amount's of writing and every one of the personalities had very different style's of writing.thought i would mention it as the three note's he left in the room were different.Maybe he had no idea what was happening to him,he may have thought he was going mad!

cold case lady
09-19-2007, 02:41 AM
thank you out of the dark!that will be helpful:woohoo:

outofthedark
09-19-2007, 11:33 AM
thank you out of the dark!that will be helpful:woohoo:

Anytime!

cold case lady
09-21-2007, 06:38 AM
is there any way we can view more info on him,like autopsy results or anything like that.:dance:

outofthedark
09-21-2007, 11:31 AM
is there any way we can view more info on him,like autopsy results or anything like that.:dance:

Unless the new detective joins here-then we could get more info

laini
09-21-2007, 10:21 PM
was wondering if anyone has read or seen doco's about multiple personalities(i know there are to many to mention),can't think of the name of it but this one woman would do endless amount's of writing and every one of the personalities had very different style's of writing.thought i would mention it as the three note's he left in the room were different.Maybe he had no idea what was happening to him,he may have thought he was going mad!

Trudi something - "When The Rabbit Howls" ?

SeriouslySearching
09-21-2007, 11:02 PM
Here are the other threads:

#2. Grays Harbor, Washington John Doe (cont...) (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39426)

#1. Unidentified Male- Found September 17th, 2001 in Grays Harbor, Washington (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38821&highlight=Grays+harbor%2C+Washington+John+Doe)

Other theads I found related to Lyle:

I made a video for Lyle Stevik, more UID videos in the works (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50217)

Possible match for Lyle Stevik? (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52890&highlight=Lyle+Stevik)

Lyle Stevik (Part 2 or 3) (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44773&highlight=Lyle+Stevik)

SeriouslySearching
09-21-2007, 11:36 PM
After carefully examining the photos of the notes, I am wondering if the name we have been calling him, Stevik, is what that actually says. I think it could be Stlevik. There is an R. Stlevik who apparently is a researcher/chemist/scientist, but I cannot figure out where he is from.

http://www.google.com/search?q=R.+Stlevik+&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBS_enUS226US226&filter=0

If you look at the first L in Lyle and the first stroke of the supposed E...you will see it is the same. You don't see this on the other E at the end of Lyle. The E looks like it is written smaller next to it.

I have to agree with CCL...the writing of the "For the room" note and the name/address are the same...but the word "suicide" doesn't appear to have been written by the same person. The S's are flat on the bottom where in "suicide" it is well rounded. (He wrote them the same exact way 3 times in other two notes.) The D is different, too. Note how in the two notes...the stroke of the top line in E is in front of the line and in suicide...the stroke begins at the top. It isn't consistent with the other E's.

It makes me think that Lyle either did not write the other two notes or he did not write the word "suicide". If the person at the desk wrote the other two notes and Lyle DID write the 3rd...it could also explain this.

I don't think multipersonality disorder (MPD) or Disassociative Identity Disorder (DID) comes into play in this case.

However, I do think the discrepancy of the notes do add another twist to the case. I don't understand why LE didn't easily see this or have a handwriting expert evaluate the notes to begin with.

outofthedark
09-21-2007, 11:49 PM
If you look at the first L in Lyle and the first "strike" of the supposed E...you will see it is the same. You don't see this on the other E at the end of Lyle. The E looks like it is written smaller next to it.

You're right. But I can't really tell because his writing is kinda messy

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 12:01 AM
You're right. But I can't really tell because his writing is kinda messy
Exactly! It IS kinda messy in two notes...but NOT in the word "suicide". The person who wrote the first two notes has a long time habit of connecting his letters in printing as if he is writing in cursive. It is even evident in writing the numbers in the address. They contain "tails".

If Lyle did write the first two...then it means instead of a suicide, this could be an assisted suicide or a murder because it would place someone else in the room with him.

outofthedark
09-22-2007, 12:08 AM
Exactly! It IS kinda messy in two notes...but NOT in the word "suicide". The person who wrote the first two notes has a long time habit of connecting his letters in printing as if he is writing in cursive. It is even evident in writing the numbers in the address. They contain "tails".

I don't know why he would use the same writing style for 2 notes, but then use a different style for another

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 12:12 AM
I don't know why he would use the same writing style for 2 notes, but then use a different style for another
He wouldn't! People don't think about those strokes when they are writing because those habits are formed early. They become very much a part of their "personality" in handwriting.

outofthedark
09-22-2007, 12:26 AM
I wonder if there could be a reason for why his handwriting is kinda messy. He could have had a problem with one of his hands and it could have caused him to have messy writing

I'm also suprised that no-one has recognized his handwriting considering how distinct it looks

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 12:43 AM
I don't see it as a problem at all with his hand. His writing is quite deliberate and not shaky in any way.

Here are a couple of very interesting articles from Nome, Alaska. The missing cases and the HIV articles bring up some questions concerning Lyle for me, as I have felt he was not only gay, but from Alaska.
http://nortonsoundhealth.org/kaniqsirugut/k59/KN59-Feb06.pdf

Gina_M
09-22-2007, 02:33 AM
Here's two Photobucket accounts. One has crime scene photos and other has an autopsy photo:

Docwho3: http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/
cjpix2006: http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q65/cjpix2006/

Lyle's autopsy photo is in the 6th row of the cjpix2006 photo album
The Docwho3 photo album is all Lyle stuff

Just curious...do both of these links have postmortem and/or autopsy photos? (Wasn't sure if crime scene meant postmortem) Looking at those types of photos makes me uncomfortable...but I really want to see the notes you guys were talking about to compare the handwritings. Is it possible to link me straight to those? :chicken:

outofthedark
09-22-2007, 03:25 AM
Just curious...do both of these links have postmortem and/or autopsy photos? (Wasn't sure if crime scene meant postmortem) Looking at those types of photos makes me uncomfortable...but I really want to see the notes you guys were talking about to compare the handwritings. Is it possible to link me straight to those? :chicken:
The "SUICIDE" note: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/suicd1.jpg
"For the Room":http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/room1b.jpg
The last note: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis2.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis3.jpg

Yes both links have postmortem photos- but very few

Now that I'm reading the residence address he put down, the way he put "Ave." looks like "Ae." or "Me."

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 04:14 AM
Seeing those magnified only brought home what I was telling you before.

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 04:17 AM
I would say it was AVE. He runs things together like I mentioned before.

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 04:19 AM
What really bothers me now is the 3rd note. If the person at the desk saw him writing the first name/address...it means he wrote the note for the money left for the room (and can we say they are honest?) Who wrote the word..."Suicide"? And how do we find out if he was the one that actually wrote the name/address? If he didn't...then the same person from the office wrote the "for the room" note which changes things to look at the staff at the motel. Maybe he didn't write ANY of the notes. These are all assumptions.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 04:28 AM
Just curious...do both of these links have postmortem and/or autopsy photos? (Wasn't sure if crime scene meant postmortem) Looking at those types of photos makes me uncomfortable...but I really want to see the notes you guys were talking about to compare the handwritings. Is it possible to link me straight to those? :chicken: The pics in my photobucket album have been cropped to delete gory unpleasant material. I have other pics but am not at liberty to release them to the public. Some of the pics are retouched by another person to make the man look more life like and to put more weight on him as it was thought he had recently lost weight and so people who knew him might more easily recognize him with some extraweight showing in his face. Those retouched images have the green leafy background and have words along the side saying who did the work on the pics and those pics look like a live person portrait from a studio.

The other images have been slightly altered by me as to contrast, gamma correction (Brightness) and size for greater picture clarity. This is why you see more than one copy of the same image in the album. It allows one to see details of the image under different lighting characteristics.

However the images of the notes in the album are at:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/room1c.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/suicd1.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/room1b.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis3.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis2.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis1c.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/regis1b.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/detlyle2.jpg

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 05:10 AM
You did a great job, DocWho! However, there are problems with the notes which you and CCL brought to my attention. Thanks! I got all of my information from your saving them.

Altho...what if it wasn't his belt? What if he WAS waiting on someone and he finally showed up? Maybe he wasn't suicidal at all! Maybe the guy targeted this man? Our Lyle did not write all of the notes...and until they can prove it otherwise, I have to believe someone had to be in the room with him directly before his death. It would explain why the room was swept clean of his identity. Anything that our Lyle had on his person could have been taken by another.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 05:56 AM
You did a great job, DocWho! However, there are problems with the notes which you and CCL brought to my attention. Thanks! I got all of my information from your saving them.

Altho...what if it wasn't his belt? What if he WAS waiting on someone and he finally showed up? Maybe he wasn't suicidal at all! Maybe the guy targeted this man? Our Lyle did not write all of the notes...and until they can prove it otherwise, I have to believe someone had to be in the room with him directly before his death. It would explain why the room was swept clean of his identity. Anything that our Lyle had on his person could have been taken by another. I have no problem with various theories of how he died but coldcase man wants to ID the man, whether he is a murder victim or a suicide. Once the ID is known other things should fall into place.

I will make this comment. I trust coldcaseman's conclusions about the case. The actual images of the scene and the dead person (not the retouched ones) all came from cold case man so they could be placed by me online where we might all see them to help in our WS investigation. Those not shown were deemed a bit too graphic and he did not wish to upset those viewing the images. I have not heard from cold case man in some time now but the case has not moved any on our end so I can understand that. Having said that, I still think that theorizing is good as long as, in the end, the man is ID'd.

I have been working on ID'ing the belt and buckle to see where it was sold. So far I have not had success.

Edited to add: You may note that on some pages you can see what looks like writing imprints showing on or through the paper. I was told that in some cases this is from the page being stored in a file over years next to other pages which resulted in ink transfer. In some cases the cause is not known. It could be evidence that Lyle wrote something else on a page that was on top of the paper we see in the picture. I just do not know.

In at least one instance there are fingerprints showing through from the back side of the page in the picture because it was stored against a page of prints copies, if I correctly remember what I was told about it.

LisainWV
09-22-2007, 08:49 AM
The notes....

Usually, when I am asked to fill out personal info like Lyle had to do at check-in, I'm in a hurry and I don't care if they can read it or not - I just quickly fill in the blanks. And, it's usually messy, I link letters that I normally wouldn't. Plus, he's leaving them a wrong address - I think he perhaps just changed his handwriting as part of his "cover."

For the Room - he's sitting in his room debating what he is going to do, decides he should leave money for the room, calmly writes the note. I think this note is probably true to his handwriting.

Suicide seems to be larger and bolder - just like the thought. I think he wrote this when he made his decision as a reinforcement to his brain.

Just my thoughts.

outofthedark
09-22-2007, 01:15 PM
This link contains two PMs of "Lyle" (www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster229.htm (http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster229.htm)) one of the photos is similar to the front facial shot but taken on a different angle and the other is a different profile shot

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't know if I mentioned it, but in the articles I put in above...there was a story about how they have a group of dental students etc. which travel to villages in Alaska to take care of people where they live. Is it possible they could have information to lead us to Lyle's identity and have not been contacted? I think it would be worth a shot for LE to contact them.

Lisa~ I don't think it matters when it comes to certain aspects of our handwriting. There are characteristics which are present no matter how fast or slow we write. It depends on our brains.

coldcaseman
09-22-2007, 04:25 PM
The notes....

Usually, when I am asked to fill out personal info like Lyle had to do at check-in, I'm in a hurry and I don't care if they can read it or not - I just quickly fill in the blanks. And, it's usually messy, I link letters that I normally wouldn't. Plus, he's leaving them a wrong address - I think he perhaps just changed his handwriting as part of his "cover."

For the Room - he's sitting in his room debating what he is going to do, decides he should leave money for the room, calmly writes the note. I think this note is probably true to his handwriting.

Suicide seems to be larger and bolder - just like the thought. I think he wrote this when he made his decision as a reinforcement to his brain.

Just my thoughts.You are correct. He filled out the registration and the "for the room" note with his usual handwriting. I believe he wrote out "suicide" in formal block letters to see how it looked. It is like people who shoot themselves will fire two shots, one into the air, and one into themselves. They are getting their courage up, seeing how loud the shot will be, make sure everything is working, etc. You are going to kill yourself, so you write out what you are going to do, to see the word in print. Either that, or I had wondered if he had written a letter to family or friends informing them that he wouldn't be coming home, and he wanted to make sure he spelled suicide correctly. I don't support that theory as much now, as he would have written it in his usual handwriting. Plus, there was no indication that he had envelopes, stamps, and such. The finality of seeing the word in print makes more sense.

outofthedark
09-22-2007, 06:04 PM
Welcome back CCM!!! :dance:

SeriouslySearching
09-22-2007, 06:13 PM
Hi and Welcome, ColdCaseMan! You are just the person to answer some of the nagging questions I have! Nice to meet you.

LisainWV
09-22-2007, 09:30 PM
Welcome back CCM!!! :dance:


DITTO!!!

coldcaseman
09-23-2007, 01:40 AM
Thanks all. I hadn't checked the site for awhile. I'll pop in more frequently to answer your questions if I can. I appreciate all your efforts.

docwho3
09-23-2007, 07:34 AM
Forgive my asking if we have already covered this in the past:

Anyone notice anything about the buckle especially anything that could either be a scratch, a thread or an engraved L?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/buckle3.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/buckle2.jpg

Problem is I don't have another pic that shows the mark. Later images have the tine (can't remember the exact name for it at moment) covering that part of the buckle.

Before now I always assumed that if it was anything significant it would already have been looked into and that is probably still true. But if all else fails I sometimes resort to questioning the obvious.

Al_B
09-23-2007, 08:10 AM
I am not certain how it would hae gotten there but here is where it sits metal to metal.http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/blttip2b.jpg

docwho3
09-23-2007, 08:28 AM
I am not certain how it would hae gotten there but here is where it sits metal to metal.http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/blttip2b.jpg
True but I can't be sure if the mark is caused by that metal on metal contact or if the mark was already there and was just hidden by by the tine.

Anyone finding similar marking on their own belt buckles?

rmf
09-23-2007, 02:49 PM
Welcome back, coldcaseman. I'm glad you're here.

Just a couple things:

Update on fliers: thanks to everyone who sent stamps. The fliers were sent to Idaho, Montana, Alberta, British Columbia and Alaska tribes. CCM and I chatted via PM last night and he encourages the fliers. He says that anything we can do will help :) . Thanks again to those who pitched in.

About the "suicide" word written on the peice of paper: I believe Lyle left that as a sign for whoever found him, but realized that was absurd because whoever found him would realize it was a suicide without it being pointed out. So at that point I think he crumpled up the peice of paper and threw it away. I think he made the letters larger to catch the reader's attention which is why it looks different than the motel registration form.

I am glad the belt is being researched, I think it is worth trying to track down the origins.

grievousangel
09-23-2007, 04:04 PM
Were his fingerprints distributed in Canada as well as throughout the U.S.?

outofthedark
09-23-2007, 06:22 PM
British Columbia


I live in BC, so which areas are you doing?

rmf
09-23-2007, 06:48 PM
I live in BC, so which areas are you doing?

Fliers have been mailed to all the recognized native tribes in British Columbia, which number about 100.

rmf
09-23-2007, 06:49 PM
Were his fingerprints distributed in Canada as well as throughout the U.S.?

Yes, according to ccm the fingerprints were run through the FBI and RCMP with negative results.

shellbee
09-23-2007, 07:02 PM
Does anyone know how Canadians are taught to write the numbers one and seven? Is it similar to Europe where the sevens are crossed and the ones have a little flag?

Also, regarding the run together writing, maybe Lyle was left-handed.
My eldest son and one of my brothers is left-handed and both tend toward that lazy style due to the way they hold their wrist.

outofthedark
09-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Does anyone know how Canadians are taught to write the numbers one and seven? Is it similar to Europe where the sevens are crossed and the ones have a little flag?



That's how I write my ones and sevens

coldcaseman
09-23-2007, 08:18 PM
Were his fingerprints distributed in Canada as well as throughout the U.S.? Yes, they were run through the FBI, RCMP, and AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification System). I ran them through AFIS on the chance that, even if Lyle had never been arrested or had his fingerprints on file, he might have committed a crime where fingerprints were located, but it was an unsolved crime. His fingerprints weren't in any of the systems.

Spazkat9696
09-23-2007, 08:35 PM
That's how I write my ones and sevens

That's how I write mine as well.

Meyahna
09-26-2007, 03:09 PM
I wonder if he couldn't be Arab, maybe he was already depressed and after the attacks he got fed up of life even more because probably at that time Arabs were looked at as unwanted. Like Lyle Stevick who was accused of being communist maybe he felt he was looked at like a terrorist.

outofthedark
09-26-2007, 03:38 PM
I had a dream about Lyle where he was identified and his first name started with an L

Does anyone have the feeling that Lyle might have been adopted?

Teresa Larson
09-26-2007, 11:38 PM
[SIZE=3]What would make you think he was adopted? He is definitely NOT Arabic. I am pretty sure DNA testing would rule that out. I believe he is a Native American. IMO :D [

rmf
09-26-2007, 11:56 PM
I totally agree Teresa, I think he's Native American or Native Canadian - or a mix of a native tribe with something else.

And if he were adopted, then we can carry that hypothesis further in that his parents must have REALLY wanted a child badly. Most people who adopt do. So one would THINK they'd be looking for him. I think the Native theory makes sense because many reservations are remote and it is not unusual for people to take off and not come back.
[/COLOR]

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 12:18 AM
I only put the thought of Lyle being an adopted child because I think it could be a possibility

rmf
09-27-2007, 12:32 AM
I only put the thought of Lyle being an adopted child because I think it could be a possibility

OK, but I'm still trying to understand how that ties into this?

Teresa Larson
09-27-2007, 04:18 AM
I only put the thought of Lyle being an adopted child because I think it could be a possibility

How does adoption have anything to do with this case? What or why would you think it's possible? There isn't one thing that indicates Lyle was adopted and if he was that still wouldn't give us our answers IMO

SeriouslySearching
09-27-2007, 04:29 AM
I only put the thought of Lyle being an adopted child because I think it could be a possibilityI would actually like to know why you think this and how it could tie into the case? You have been on this case for a long time and I don't think you would throw something like this out there..unless you had a reason. Let's hear it. :)

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 08:45 AM
just curious Gina M.A LOT OF WHAT webslueuths is all about is ability to at least take a glimpse of a dead person.Check out crime library crime spider or find a death.that will no doubt give a big glass of toughen up!My point being.It is hard to talk crime when people are on this site that we all have to tread on egg shell's around.BRING BACK THE CRIME SCENE PHOTO'S!:rolleyes:

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 09:19 AM
gee wizz! I'm adopted and quess what.I'm not Arabic either! that's gona devo my parent's!Who do you know that lives in the middle of no were and has near perfect teeth?.logic is a good thing!:slap:

Meyahna
09-27-2007, 10:30 AM
Well I was just throwing an idea, and I think it is fairly possible. I'm not sure in what you can say looking at him that he is not Arabic as he looks Arabic as much as much as Hispanic or Native American. Cold case Lady who are you talking to about teeth and logic?

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 11:35 AM
I would actually like to know why you think this and how it could tie into the case? You have been on this case for a long time and I don't think you would throw something like this out there..unless you had a reason. Let's hear it. :)

I'm not exactly sure why I put the "adopted" theory in here- I pretty much said it because it was on my mind at the time

rmf
09-27-2007, 02:34 PM
The fact that Lyle had good dental care is not really that surprising to me. The reason is because for decades the federal government has been involved in dental health and education programs on indian reservations all over the U.S. A lot of these programs are integrated into the Head Start preschool program for 3-5 year olds. Children are given toothbrushes, toothpaste and taught to take care of their teeth. These programs were started due to the high numbers of children in N.A. communities suffering tooth decay from "baby bottle tooth syndrome" (sugary drinks in bottles with children laid down to sleep) along with statistically N.A. children having 2x the amount of decay vs. non-native children. The dental care these children receive is free and the programs that are set up are quite impressive. There was a huge push in the 1980s around this issue in conjunction with Head Start so I would not be surprised if Lyle was not in one of these programs. There are also a lot of programs on reservations that provide free or low cost orthodontic services as well. A friend of mine who is a blackfoot indian from Montana was the recipient of these services and has perfect teeth too. If anyone has been to St. Mary, Montana, that's about as far out in the middle of nowhere as you can get. If Lyle was Canadian I would assume there were similar programs available to Native Canadians as well. This early education about dental care could explain why Lyle had the toothbrush and toothpaste with him when he died. As coldcaseman said, "habits".

It is hard to talk crime when people are on this site that we all have to tread on egg shell's around.BRING BACK THE CRIME SCENE PHOTO'S!:rolleyes:


coldcaselady: about the "crime" scene photos (this was not a "crime" so why you insist on calling them that baffles me): you mention, ccm and docwho already explained WHY they are not being posted here. Go back and READ.



I will make this comment. I trust coldcaseman's conclusions about the case. The actual images of the scene and the dead person (not the retouched ones) all came from cold case man so they could be placed by me online where we might all see them to help in our WS investigation. Those not shown were deemed a bit too graphic and he did not wish to upset those viewing the images.

Meyahna
09-27-2007, 04:48 PM
I think also most native american probably no longer live in tribes under huts but have houses and can buy their toothpaste and tooth brushes all by themselves. Some even go to school and have university diplomas, and can become doctors...

rmf
09-27-2007, 05:56 PM
I think also most native american probably no longer live in tribes under huts but have houses and can buy their toothpaste and tooth brushes all by themselves. Some even go to school and have university diplomas, and can become doctors...

I think if you saw the way many Native Americans live on reservations STILL you'd be appalled. The poverty is shameful and your sarcastic comment shows you have no clue about the struggles these people face.

Al_B
09-27-2007, 06:35 PM
The fact that Lyle had good dental care is not really that surprising to me. The reason is because for decades the federal government has been involved in dental health and education programs on indian reservations all over the U.S. A lot of these programs are integrated into the Head Start preschool program for 3-5 year olds. Children are given toothbrushes, toothpaste and taught to take care of their teeth.


I think they just do the program anyway. I remember doing the flouride and getting the nasty red tablets tooth brush and toothpaste in school and they still do it in schools irregaurdless of being native or not it's more due to a money thing I think,and you would think with all the education for dental care that bottle rot would be gone.

I think Lyle's parent's took care of him, took very good care of him and taught him good hygiene.

rmf
09-27-2007, 06:41 PM
I think Lyle's parent's took care of him, took very good care of him and taught him good hygiene.

I thought that for a while too Al, but now I wonder. The reason is because no one seems to be looking for him. That is the most perplexing thing about this case. Even if he wrote home (a theory of which ccm now says he has mixed feelings about) you'd think they'd still want to find him. If Lyle didn't have any family whatsoever, then why go to such great effort to hide his identity? Very odd.

Al_B
09-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Well, I started reading the book from which he got his name and the Lyle in the book was catholic and his father commited suicide and it was shameful to him. So that may be a reason to hide it.

rmf
09-27-2007, 07:01 PM
Meyahna, if that's the case, I sincerely apologize. Sorry for the kneejerk reaction, but some of the posts in this thread (and others) about Lyle have been really off the wall lately.

Thanks rhyno.
[/COLOR]

Meyahna
09-27-2007, 07:15 PM
I must admit yes I have probs with comments insinuating that such race or such people do so or so as a generality. If you want to make me mad just say European don't shave. Lyle was probably not poor, poor people hang themselves to tree branch they don't rent a hotel room for that.

rhyno1974
09-27-2007, 07:30 PM
I am sorry if I offend you, and again I don't mean to offend you, but I find it hard to understand what you mean in your messages. Just the way they are written. I still don't know if you think that he may be Arabic or you think he is absolutely not Arabic. I sincerely mean no offense to you. I think I (and others) may be misconstruing (sp?) what you are saying.

I know it has been discussed on here before that he may be Arabic. I lean towards that he is not Arabic, but I dont totally discount it.

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 07:33 PM
On a forum that I found, someone suggested that Lyle might have had a chin implant: http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1414

rmf
09-27-2007, 07:34 PM
On a forum that I found, someone suggested that Lyle might have had a chin implant: http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1414

Wouldn't that have been noted by the medical examiner?

Al_B
09-27-2007, 07:35 PM
On a forum that I found, someone suggested that Lyle might have had a chin implant: http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1414
they would have been able to tell that at autopsy,slight scars and all

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 07:44 PM
thank you.I cannot say if he has any arabic in him or not.What ever mixture of heritage he has,he may even be full blooded.He could have very well been conceived and born out side of his native country.

coldcaseman
09-27-2007, 07:48 PM
On a forum that I found, someone suggested that Lyle might have had a chin implant: http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=1414
Lyle did not have a chin implant. I also concluded that he was not Todd Frazier. The nose, ears, eye color don't match, and Lyle didn't have a scar over his eye, on his foot, and there was no indication that his ears had been pierced.

rhyno1974
09-27-2007, 07:49 PM
Coldcaseman,

Do you know if "Kenley Allan Matheson" was ruled out? I think i read on here recently that he was.

Thanks,

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 08:16 PM
poor people commit suicide in many ways,not just hanging from a tree.a person wanting to do this usually picks a method they are comfortable with and will do the job.I have been told by someone that found their daughter hanging that it is by no means quick and painless.they loose all bodily function,so as you could imagine it can be pretty messy.

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 08:19 PM
Coldcaseman,

Do you know if "Kenley Allan Matheson" was ruled out? I think i read on here recently that he was.

Thanks,

Yeah he was ruled out

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 08:23 PM
Lyle did not have a chin implant.


I figured that was impossible given his facial structure

Gina_M
09-27-2007, 09:09 PM
just curious Gina M.A LOT OF WHAT webslueuths is all about is ability to at least take a glimpse of a dead person.Check out crime library crime spider or find a death.that will no doubt give a big glass of toughen up!My point being.It is hard to talk crime when people are on this site that we all have to tread on egg shell's around.BRING BACK THE CRIME SCENE PHOTO'S!:rolleyes:

CCL, I've been here for a long time, and Websleuths is about more than looking at post mortem photos. Most of the cases I'm interested in are missing persons cases. Not all of us are comfortable looking at graphic photos - I know I'm not the only one, and while I'm trying to get more used to it, it's still not my cup of tea. You're more than welcome to go look at them if you want - the links were posted earlier in the thread. I choose not to look at them. No need to walk on eggshells, but no need to be rude either.

Babyslims
09-27-2007, 09:45 PM
someone mentioned somethign about the belt earlier not being his.. I know my husband is shorter/heavier than the unidentified guy and wears a size 36.. So I'd imagine that size of pants would fall of the unidentified guy.. maybe...(??) but I guess the pants/belt could be someone elses ... but I looked back on the Doe page.. And I didnt see anything about underwear? (probably's been discussed, but I havent read everything (yet)

also I had a question.. Is there a really good shot of what his ears looked like? :angel:

laini
09-27-2007, 10:15 PM
Well I was just throwing an idea, and I think it is fairly possible. I'm not sure in what you can say looking at him that he is not Arabic as he looks Arabic as much as much as Hispanic or Native American. Cold case Lady who are you talking to about teeth and logic?

Meyahna, I definately agree with you on this one. I think he could be Arabic. The wide jaw, his nose, his "unibrow", he could
be Native American, Hispanic, Arabic, or otherIMO. As I said before, some of the Middle Eastern men listed on fbi.gov have all of the same characteristics and look very much like "Lyle."

Al_B
09-27-2007, 10:38 PM
No matter his heritage, I think we need to figure out how to get the poor man some sort of air time for his identity. I have sent the flyer out via e and snail mail but I don't think to much will come of it cause it's just one person and have yet to hear anything back or see it posted on the news. Maybe flooding the press would work ,but I dunno.

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 10:43 PM
as i said on the previous thread,his heritage is in a way no indication of were he might be from.he could have been born outside of his native country.He could be any combination of different races,he could also be full blooded.

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 11:11 PM
He could have very well been conceived and born out side of his native country.

I emailed that possibility to Steve Shumate, who is the current detective on this case

Al_B
09-27-2007, 11:22 PM
this is in no way Lyle but goes to show he could be from any decent
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/wanted/boulachanis_e.htm

guessing heritage could be misleading as to place where he might be missing from and how to get his information out there

outofthedark
09-27-2007, 11:55 PM
I always thought that Lyle could be of Greek descent

cold case lady
09-27-2007, 11:59 PM
thank's outofthedark!I thought pointing the heritage issue might help every one see that he could be quite a mixture,or not.Unfortunately we don't know!

cold case lady
09-28-2007, 12:04 AM
i thought that to.look at his nose!It's perfect,not like your typical Italian or greeks.I know not all of them have big noses,but that was why i did not think he was from there.But i suppose he could have a relative that passed on their perfect nose to him!

cold case lady
09-28-2007, 12:41 AM
Al b.could you tell me were that guy is from? Obviously i don't mean heritage.Where was he living or last seen?

outofthedark
09-28-2007, 12:48 AM
I think he broke his nose at one point in his life and it never healed properly because the bridge of his nose does not look normal and the bottom of his nose looks slightly off

This looks like Lyle's nose from an angle (it's not a photo of Lyle): http://www.tmdrfan.com/tmdr/cgi/image_page.pl?image=wireless_wonders_b.jpg&title=Wireless+Wonders+Side+B

It's a photo of Thomas Dolby- who broke his nose at 14 and it didn't quite heal properly

cold case lady
09-28-2007, 01:00 AM
you know that side view photo taken at the autopsy.it look's very different than the face on view.seems really normal side on.

Teresa Larson
09-28-2007, 03:01 AM
I might as well throw my 2 cents in here :twocents: I still believe he is a Native American and NOT Arabic. My reason for thinking this is the undertone of his skin. Most Arabic people are darker complected. If he was adopted or not has NOTHING to do with how he got where he was and why he killed himself. We do not know if his family has been looking for him. It's very possible they looked. However if they are people from the reservation they may not know how to go about searching on their own. There are many possibilities. There are lots of unidentified people and lots of people looking for their loved ones. We are NOT here to decide whether his family loved him, adopted him, or looked for him. We are here to try to help find out his true identity.

SeriouslySearching
09-28-2007, 03:37 AM
My goodness! The animosity on here has gotten so thick you can cut it with a knife! Bickering isn't helping to solve this mystery. If we can't stay on topic and not bash one another...a mod is going to come by and close this thread. I would recommend to new people...they read the TOS rules as they are very clear.

Finding Lyle's identity is the reason we are on this particular thread. Coldcaseman was good enough to come back to help us and he is greeted in the manner. Very disrespectful, WSers!

Meyahna
09-28-2007, 09:18 AM
Please tell me you're joking :confused:

Yes if we're talking about hanging. It makes me think I had always thought he had rented the room purposedely to commit suicide there but maybe not, to me it was like Mary Anderson, all was planned but yes maybe not. That would explain the toothpaste and toothbrush too.

Al_B
09-28-2007, 09:31 AM
I still have no clue where he is from to be honest, and with immigration as it is in North America there is really no point in guessing his lineage.
I am no forensic psychologist so I couldn't tell you anything important about why he chose the things he did. ( I know of at least 5 different bloods in my own line)

The book may just be a fluke but who knows. I know Joyce Carol Oates taught at Windsor University before going to Princeton, I know she still guest lectures there to this day. I know she said her town was fake but there is a real one if you drop the port http://www.terahertztechnologies.com/historic_oriskany.htm

I know having a canadian sounding accent doesn't make you from Canada. As I learned when I went to Wisconsin last year.

I know you can e-mail most news stations and papers ,but couldn't tell you if one person bugging him to air information is going to help or not.

I can tell you that when people are put in desperate situations they can and will lie as we have seen by the name and address. So he may have done so to his family,which may be why they aren't looking.

I know it's James Dean weekend here and there are about a million people from all over the world in my town and the one next to us so I will put flyers at the parks.

If any one has any other suggestions on how to get his information out there then lets hear it.

Meyahna
09-28-2007, 10:10 AM
Race is important to me there are just thousands of people listed missing online if I can narrow down with race, I can tell you it really helps. But of course that is if you really want to find him and not just talk vainly.

Al_B
09-28-2007, 10:22 AM
I believe his race was listed and gave possibles,but picking apart his lineage just seems a bit much,especially since we can't be sure.There are pages with the debate listed. Sorry if that's too vain. But I don't think it's an issue of my vainity. It's an issue of what are we willing to do to get his info out there.

Al_B
09-28-2007, 10:34 AM
newspaper links http://www.50states.com/news/
the assoicated press http://www.ap.org/

Angie4b1g
09-28-2007, 10:35 AM
Why is this thread so catty? We need to get back on task here.

Al_B
09-28-2007, 10:45 AM
don't know if this helps any but it's possible that he wasn't the first in his family to commit suicide. I know from experience from my ex husband that it can run in families (his father,his brother and my ex are all suicides)
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Depression/related/suicide_13.asp
http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/05_00/suicide_gene.shtml

which could be why he went off to do this.

coldcaseman
09-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Race is important to me there are just thousands of people listed missing online if I can narrow down with race, I can tell you it really helps. I've found that when I search missing person websites, that I don't automaticaly exclude a person because some of the description doesn't match. When a person goes missing, a loved one reports that to the authorities. People tend to guess about parts of the description, and some agencies may not run a drivers check to confirm the description (and those are oftentimes wrong). Just for fun, call your spouse or family member and ask them to describe you. People from different cultures may describe a person differently. I found that Hispanics with brown hair are often listed as blond. A person of mixed race may only be listed as one. The family might not know that the missing person has a tattoo, or they'll say the tattoo is on the right arm when it's actually on the left. Don't be too quick to exclude.

cold case lady
09-28-2007, 10:42 PM
It's a good thing we are not counting on Gill Grissom then!
CCM.can't you use blood samples to get some kind a genetic markers that in some way help to determine race?

outofthedark
09-28-2007, 10:52 PM
Here's some diagrams of noses that I found on Wikipedia- these two look the closest to Lyle's on an angle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Class_I_nose.svg
(The Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome), or Aquiline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooknose) nose, which is rather convex, but undulating as its name aquiline imports)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aquain_Nosen.svg
(The Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) or Straight nose, which is perfectly straight)

Photo source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nose

coldcaseman
09-28-2007, 11:57 PM
It's a good thing we are not counting on Gill Grissom then!
CCM.can't you use blood samples to get some kind a genetic markers that in some way help to determine race? I wish we had Gil Grissom here. His lab can get DNA results back in minutes. Labs can determine genetic markers, and they have in murder cases where you are looking for a suspect who left DNA. Even then, what they can determine is whether the person is Caucasian, Negroid, or Mongoloid. I'm sure Gil could do much better.

cold case lady
09-29-2007, 01:24 AM
SOOOOOOOO!Was that kind of test done in the case of lyle?

coldcaseman
09-29-2007, 01:42 AM
SOOOOOOOO!Was that kind of test done in the case of lyle?His DNA profile was run through CODIS, to be compared with DNA from unsolved crimes and missing persons, with negative results.

Indy Gal
09-29-2007, 01:43 AM
Wow a poster who has been on this thread told me of it. Reading that last two pages I have chosen not to post as it seems as if it is kinda one sided at the moment. I will come in and post once I feel it is safe too. GEESH

cold case lady
09-29-2007, 01:53 AM
CCM.You did tell everyone that way long ago.What is codis.does that mean you did a test on heritage or is that done only when you think a crime has been commited?

laini
09-29-2007, 02:04 AM
Wow a poster who has been on this thread told me of it. Reading that last two pages I have chosen not to post as it seems as if it is kinda one sided at the moment. I will come in and post once I feel it is safe too. GEESH

Yep. "Lyle's" thread has never been negative like this until recently. So what has changed? :waitasec: hmm

Teresa Larson
09-29-2007, 02:08 AM
I wish we had Gil Grissom here. His lab can get DNA results back in minutes. Labs can determine genetic markers, and they have in murder cases where you are looking for a suspect who left DNA. Even then, what they can determine is whether the person is Caucasian, Negroid, or Mongoloid. I'm sure Gil could do much better.

LMAO @ the Gil Grissom comment!! I think we should call him in on this case. :dance:

Al_B
09-29-2007, 02:19 AM
question, watching Dr. G families sometimes freak at the suggestion of suicide is it possible that because of religous beliefs may be the reason for them not looking for him or why he chose to run away ?

cold case lady
09-29-2007, 02:48 AM
i think that could be very possible!Also the fact that he has made identifying him difficult,he did not want his family to bury him properly.He may not have had contact with them for a very long time,his immediate family may have all passed to!

Teresa Larson
09-29-2007, 03:39 AM
question, watching Dr. G families sometimes freak at the suggestion of suicide is it possible that because of religous beliefs may be the reason for them not looking for him or why he chose to run away ?

We have no way of knowing if Lyle's family ever looked for him. I don't know of any religion that would disown a family member for committing suicide I think there might be some cultures that do but don't remember which one it is. I was thinking it was some Indian tribes[/SIZE]
:waitasec: [/SIZE]

rmf
09-29-2007, 04:42 AM
There is a phenomenon in the NA community that has been complained about for a long time. The issue is that on reservations (and not), when a NA goes missing, sometimes it isn't taken seriously by law enforcement. This has been going on for years, even when there has been evidence of foul play. It is worse in some areas than others, but is often referred to by NA communities as "wandering indian syndrome". In other words, the police think the person just wandered off. End of story. This has been a problem for other minority groups too.

I am somewhat familiar with the NA angle as I taught children in a couple different communities in the past, and have had some exposure, so I've often wondered if in Lyle's case this was a factor.....

Al_B
09-29-2007, 08:34 AM
ok was just curious. I know that Catholics can be very strict but I really don't know the policy. I do know there is shame in suicide. So was just a thought.

Meyahna
09-29-2007, 10:02 AM
Yep. "Lyle's" thread has never been negative like this until recently. So what has changed? :waitasec: hmm

Lol, I hope it isn't me, I was starting to wonder, well personally, I don't feel people are arguing that much. They just disagree not as if they were calling each others names. And disagreement is not argument. I still think race is important but now really I start to wonder if I shouldn't look at wanted people rather than missing ones. Well anyway when I don't find anything about a doe I start looking for another. I have this bad tendency though like most to look a lot for some but not for others and maybe if I spent one tenth of the time I spend on very few on another I'd find sthg. But there aren't so many that have real clues to their identity. Actually I do know he could be Arabic I just mentionned it for other people to also look at that possibility, there are enough Arabic people in France for me to know what they look like, Arabic people can look very different from one area to another. To me as long as he is dark complected it is fairly possible. Whatever his race was though hazel eyes are pretty rare for dark complected people. I really don't think though that we can deduce that he was adopted, that his family isn't looking for him or whatever I have seen many cases of Does actually most of them in which there was a missing person report and a family longing for answers.

Meyahna
09-29-2007, 10:39 AM
I do think he is more likely native though or Hispanic with native ancestry.

Al_B
09-29-2007, 10:47 AM
I don't think you can be buried in consecrated ground with some churches if it's suicide. I have been reading up on it will look further. I know some churches you can't marry outside of your religion or you'll be disowned from both church and family, I know some people convert so they can marry people of certain religions (like if you want to marry a catholic or at least was the case for my uncle and an aunt who both married catholics and in some cases the church makes you sign a paper stating the children will be raised as such)

Indy Gal
09-29-2007, 02:53 PM
So I have been trying to read up on this in what free time I have...LOL I havent got through it all so i wont make any comments just yet on what I think happened. I just wanted to mention that looking at the photos I think some of you are on to something thinking he may not be from USA. My first impression was Russia. Has anyone else thought this? If so has this location been search for missing people? Also as again I havent made it through everything, could he have been on the run from something and just got tired of running? That may explain why no one has tried to find him. Again sorry if some of this has been discussed, just trying to catch up. There is a lot of info here:clap:

Meyahna
09-29-2007, 02:56 PM
It depends which kind I guess there are some biggots in all religions but in France most people are catholic and they really don't care about such things that it be burial or the religion of who they marry. But most people simply don't care about religion though in France.

Meyahna
09-29-2007, 03:00 PM
So I have been trying to read up on this in what free time I have...LOL I havent got through it all so i wont make any comments just yet on what I think happened. I just wanted to mention that looking at the photos I think some of you are on to something thinking he may not be from USA. My first impression was Russia. Has anyone else thought this? If so has this location been search for missing people? Also as again I havent made it through everything, could he have been on the run from something and just got tired of running? That may explain why no one has tried to find him. Again sorry if some of this has been discussed, just trying to catch up. There is a lot of info here:clap:

Yes, lol, I have tried many possibility. Greek, Russian, Arab, just not Swedish or Irish lol.

rmf
09-29-2007, 03:02 PM
I still think race is important but now really I start to wonder if I shouldn't look at wanted people rather than missing ones.

I believe ccm stated at some point in one of these threads that Lyle's fingerprints and DNA were run through databases in the USA and Canada for both missing persons AND wanted criminals and the results were negative. Of course he could be wanted abroad, but ccm stated all his clothing were brands found in North America, so who knows.

Indy Gal
09-29-2007, 03:05 PM
It depends which kind I guess there are some biggots in all religions but in France most people are catholic and they really don't care about such things that it be burial or the religion of who they marry. But most people simply don't care about religion though in France.
My grandmother comitted suicide and was given a catholic burial.

rmf
09-29-2007, 03:05 PM
But most people simply don't care about religion though in France.

This is an off-topic reply to an off-topic reply, but there are over 4 million muslims in France right now, which equals almost 10 percent of the population there. From what I've experienced, these people care a LOT about their religion.

Indy Gal
09-29-2007, 03:07 PM
I believe ccm stated at some point in one of these threads that Lyle's fingerprints and DNA were run through databases in the USA and Canada for both missing persons AND wanted criminals and the results were negative. Of course he could be wanted abroad, but ccm stated all his clothing were brands found in North America, so who knows.

Was there a suitcase full of clothes or just what he was wearing? If someone could repost:D :D :D the evidence thus far it may help me catch up faster:D :D :D

Babyslims
09-29-2007, 03:14 PM
http://www.someoneismissing.com/washington/duna-iuly-florin.htm

this guy isnt the unidentified guy... but thought maybe some of the features might be a little a like (??) I think it says he's romanian

rmf
09-29-2007, 03:31 PM
Was there a suitcase full of clothes or just what he was wearing? If someone could repost:D :D :D the evidence thus far it may help me catch up faster:D :D :D

I think the posts were in the last Lyle thread, but they were individual responses from ccm. I don't have time to go through them one by one but they're there.

Lyle didn't have any luggage that was found, anyway. Just the clothes on his back according to ccm.

rmf
09-29-2007, 03:33 PM
http://www.someoneismissing.com/washington/duna-iuly-florin.htm

this guy isnt the unidentified guy... but thought maybe some of the features might be a little a like (??) I think it says he's romanian

Yup! Very similar. As ccm says, it is important not to rule anything out.

Indy Gal
09-29-2007, 03:34 PM
I think the posts were in the last Lyle thread, but they were individual responses from ccm. I don't have time to go through them one by one but they're there.

Lyle didn't have any luggage that was found, anyway. Just the clothes on his back according to ccm.

Thanks!

Al_B
09-29-2007, 04:23 PM
It depends which kind I guess there are some biggots in all religions but in France most people are catholic and they really don't care about such things that it be burial or the religion of who they marry. But most people simply don't care about religion though in France.
wasn't sure because what I have been reading it sounds like there are standards.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

I didn't know if there were different levels of devoutness(is that a word?)

laini
09-29-2007, 06:40 PM
Lol, I hope it isn't me, I was starting to wonder, well personally, I don't feel people are arguing that much. They just disagree not as if they were calling each others names. And disagreement is not argument. I still think race is important but now really I start to wonder if I shouldn't look at wanted people rather than missing ones. Well anyway when I don't find anything about a doe I start looking for another. I have this bad tendency though like most to look a lot for some but not for others and maybe if I spent one tenth of the time I spend on very few on another I'd find sthg. But there aren't so many that have real clues to their identity. Actually I do know he could be Arabic I just mentionned it for other people to also look at that possibility, there are enough Arabic people in France for me to know what they look like, Arabic people can look very different from one area to another. To me as long as he is dark complected it is fairly possible. Whatever his race was though hazel eyes are pretty rare for dark complected people. I really don't think though that we can deduce that he was adopted, that his family isn't looking for him or whatever I have seen many cases of Does actually most of them in which there was a missing person report and a family longing for answers.

No! I enjoy reading your posts.
I have wondered if you own this site:
http://meyahna.tripod.com/index.html

outofthedark
09-29-2007, 06:51 PM
Yes, lol, I have tried many possibility. Greek, Russian, Arab, just not Swedish or Irish lol.

I found a PM for Lyle that was from the Ukraine- I already emailed it to Steve Shumate

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1415dmukr.html

Mandy O'Blenis
09-29-2007, 06:54 PM
No! I enjoy reading your posts.
I have wondered if you own this site:
http://meyahna.tripod.com/index.html

Yup, that's Meya:)

rhyno1974
09-29-2007, 06:57 PM
Yup, that's Meya:)


I was wondering the same thing. I like that site, but can you do anything about those nasty pop ups lol.

outofthedark
09-29-2007, 07:35 PM
I love the identified persons memorial pages- it's nice to see what they looked like and it shows that they deserve to be remembered

SeriouslySearching
09-29-2007, 10:51 PM
I found a PM for Lyle that was from the Ukraine- I already emailed it to Steve Shumate

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1415dmukr.html I don't think we should send ANYTHING in as a lead or a tip if we haven't thoroughly gone over it here. The doenetwork shot in your post looks nothing like Lyle and I don't understand why you would send it in as a possibility?!

Websleuths is gaining in reputation as a legitimate site to work with LE and we need to be careful we do not innundate any office with unneccessary things. They simply will not put any stock into what we do send them in the future which could be pertinent to the case.

On other threads, we try to have specific person stay in contact with LE, but we work on the tips together to come to a consensus before we send them in. This way LE doesn't have 20 people from this site to respond to and we can narrow down leads beforehand which they have to sift through. LE has been appreciative and has responded well to WS.

Let's work together to find the Identity of Lyle and let's maintain a good working relationship with the detective in charge of his case.

Also, it isn't at all good to take ideas or results of searches from other forums. They developed their own and consider it their "work". (This is the reason Out was given a 7 day suspension from another site.) They want to protect their members which we should respect. If we work hard on a case and people take our theories it might cause real problems. WSers, imo, want to be held to a higher standard to gain respect from other sites, as well as LE and other agencies.

outofthedark
09-29-2007, 11:04 PM
I sent in the PM based on the missing man's Vital Statistics- not because of his appearance

rmf
09-30-2007, 01:31 AM
I agree SS, you're right about not burdening LE with wild goose chases.

Also about that Ukranian man, the photo isn't too great but from what I can see, he has earlobes.

I also think it is important to remember that trying to discover Lyle's identity isn't a game. He was a real person and because of that, deserves to be treated with respect. Some of the stuff I've read here and in the other threads is totally off the wall. It is important to stick to the facts as we know them, work from there and hope that they will reveal something.

Since I live in Washington, I will also tell you that the Sheriff's Department in Gray's Harbor County is SMALL. That county is not rich and so we must regard the Detective's time as PRECIOUS time that should not be wasted on trivial and outlandish theories. Time is money for small communities like that one and wasted time on leads that are not probable also takes time away from leads that are good and may help to identify Lyle.

Teresa Larson
09-30-2007, 02:59 AM
I also think it is important to remember that trying to discover Lyle's identity isn't a game. He was a real person and because of that, deserves to be treated with respect. Some of the stuff I've read here and in the other threads is totally off the wall. It is important to stick to the facts as we know them, work from there and hope that they will reveal something.
Since I live in Washington, I will also tell you that the Sheriff's Department in Gray's Harbor County is SMALL. That county is not rich and so we must regard the Detective's time as PRECIOUS time that should not be wasted on trivial and outlandish theories. Time is money for small communities like that one and wasted time on leads that are not probable also takes time away from leads that are good and may help to identify Lyle.
[/quote]

I agree with you totally rmf. There has been too much nonsense on here about some things. We all have our own opinions but haggling over them isn't solving anything.[/SIZE]
IMO :rolleyes: :rolleyes: [/SIZE]

Mandy O'Blenis
09-30-2007, 09:16 AM
I agree with SS as well; gaining the respect of Law Enforcement is key in this cause. And it can be very difficult to do, just because they do have so many tips and leads from so many different people and organizations. To stand out from the crowd and be considered by LE as a viable resource is a great success that should be carefully cultivated, especially in a group setting such as this.

It was for this reason that The Doe Network decided to implement Area Directors, to keep track of all the leads for their regions and obtain and maintain the LE contact there. LE always knew who they were dealing with and what to expect, which is the root of DoeNet's success.

I'm not saying at all that this is what WS should do, and become another DoeNet, I am simply saying that when submitting pm's etc to LE, it should be a unified effort, with the right hand knowing just what the left is doing so no one is repeating what others have done.

This group has a much nicer atmosphere than the Doe Network members group does; it would be nice to see it gain as much success with LE.

Meyahna
09-30-2007, 09:45 AM
This is an off-topic reply to an off-topic reply, but there are over 4 million muslims in France right now, which equals almost 10 percent of the population there. From what I've experienced, these people care a LOT about their religion.


Geez, lol, there aren't 10% muslims in France. And still 90% would still be "most". But I was thinking when writing about what I had heard about some Americans thinking that and thought someone might mention it. Anyway I dk what they're doing there I was talking about Catholics. And there are at least 60 million people in France.

I agree Kaylen, I was wow when I was sent his pic to put on my site, I thought he really looked like 233umwa that's why recently I made a listing of Romanian sites. I still have to add them on my site.

Meyahna
09-30-2007, 09:47 AM
I think most Romanian missing people are on this site, there are so many I haven't had the time to look at all them but if someone wants to have a look.

http://www.politiaromana.ro/urmariti/urmariti.aspx?type=cd

Meyahna
09-30-2007, 10:01 AM
And no nothing to do about pop ups my pop ups blocker usually blocks them well though but it might be because it already has blocked most of them as I often go on it. I like the identified pages too, I also did it to show people that it really could be anybody ending like a Doe, there are really of every kind.

Meyahna
09-30-2007, 10:17 AM
The resemblance is more amazing on that pic.

http://helpfindthem.tripod.com/pg2.html

FLMom
09-30-2007, 10:55 AM
I don't think we should send ANYTHING in as a lead or a tip if we haven't thoroughly gone over it here. The doenetwork shot in your post looks nothing like Lyle and I don't understand why you would send it in as a possibility?!

Websleuths is gaining in reputation as a legitimate site to work with LE and we need to be careful we do not innundate any office with unneccessary things. They simply will not put any stock into what we do send them in the future which could be pertinent to the case.

On other threads, we try to have specific person stay in contact with LE, but we work on the tips together to come to a consensus before we send them in. This way LE doesn't have 20 people from this site to respond to and we can narrow down leads beforehand which they have to sift through. LE has been appreciative and has responded well to WS.

Let's work together to find the Identity of Lyle and let's maintain a good working relationship with the detective in charge of his case.

Also, it isn't at all good to take ideas or results of searches from other forums. They developed their own and consider it their "work". (This is the reason Out was given a 7 day suspension from another site.) They want to protect their members which we should respect. If we work hard on a case and people take our theories it might cause real problems. WSers, imo, want to be held to a higher standard to gain respect from other sites, as well as LE and other agencies.


I may be the odd man out here, but I have a problem with this.

There has never been a time in history when everyone has agreed on everything. There are a lot of people here that spend hours going through UID's (me included) who don't always agree with everyone, or have everyone else agree with them. We all have different minds, and those minds perceive things differently. Where one person sees an uncanny resemblence, another may just say "nah" and move on to the next missing person.

There is also the issue that there are some people that have worked together on here for a long time, and others who are newer to the field. There may be three or four people working on one lead in particular. They've searched certain missing persons and unidentified sites and have their regular bookmarks. Then, along comes someone that went outside the norm and found something that is completely unrelated to who those three or four people are currently working on. Their ideas kind of get lost in the shuffle because they aren't on the same wavelength. Doesn't mean that they couldn't be right, doesn't mean that they couldn't be wrong. Just a differing opinion.

I hope that made sense. I haven't had enough coffee this morning.

I'm not calling "clique" or anything, I swear. What makes this place great is that we all have a contribution to make. LE is trained well. They've got these cases out there because they are at an impasse themselves. So they get ten e-mails on a case. . . doesn't mean that they'll follow them all up. They always have information that the public doesn't get. They can rule those out that are definitely not their person and work with the rest. We may be good sleuths, but we aren't LE. It should be their decision what they work with our links, ideas and comparisions, not ours.

This is all meant within reason, of course. To send them the UID's from the entire Eastern Seaboard is ridiculous. . . to send them a tip that so and so was last seen in a relevant state and the descriptions matches. . . that's a lead for them. Let them choose whether it needs to be worked on.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. . . was not my intention.

Babyslims
09-30-2007, 11:26 AM
I think most Romanian missing people are on this site, there are so many I haven't had the time to look at all them but if someone wants to have a look.

http://www.politiaromana.ro/urmariti/urmariti.aspx?type=cd


there isnt a way to turn this into english is there?? lol or do we have to go see what word means what one by one?


but here's a guy from washington.. nothing matches with the unidentified guy though... i'm just so curious to seee what this guy looks like without his hair over his eyebrows....

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502411S

Al_B
09-30-2007, 12:41 PM
does anyone remember what chapter and verse ccm said were marked in the Bible ?

outofthedark
09-30-2007, 01:35 PM
does anyone remember what chapter and verse ccm said were marked in the Bible ?

I don't think he said anything about that. But it would be it great to know out of curiosity

Al_B
09-30-2007, 01:38 PM
I thought I read it in the first one I believe he said something about John being marked in the bible in the room and it was out on the nightstand (they are usually kept in the drawer I thought) I'll go search it

Al_B
09-30-2007, 01:42 PM
found it
coldcaseman (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=12074) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_1193516", true);
He alone is dead who has been forgotten
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Washington
Posts: 135


No backpack, but I only searched around the motel. The daily World most probably had stories about the attacks. There was nothing unusual about his paper, it wasn't folded a certain way indicating he focused on anything in particular. He tossed it into a trash can. For what it is worth, there was a Gideon bible in the nightstand. There was a bookmark in John 12, 13, 14 (pages 1050-1051). I don't know if Lyle was the one that was reading that passage.

Al_B
09-30-2007, 01:45 PM
John 1:12-14 (New International Version)

New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31) (NIV)

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN%201:12-14;&version=31#fen-NIV-26048a)] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN%201:12-14;&version=31#fen-NIV-26049b)] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jeana (DP)
09-30-2007, 06:07 PM
Either this case will be discussed without all the bickering and snide comments or it will not be discussed at all. Anyone who I have to remind more than this once, will be locked out.

cold case lady
09-30-2007, 07:23 PM
Those quotes from the bible are actually quite fitting really,considering what he did!I was wondering why Lyle's age was so broad(20-30)why is it it could not be narrowed down to a more specific age? :dance:

outofthedark
09-30-2007, 07:51 PM
Those quotes from the bible are actually quite fitting really,considering what he did!I was wondering why Lyle's age was so broad(20-30)why is it it could not be narrowed down to a more specific age? :dance:

I think CCM said he was at least around 20 because of his dention

coldcaseman
09-30-2007, 07:58 PM
I think CCM said he was at least around 20 because of his dention The age range was determined by the dentition, as well as cranial sutures. I don't know of any way you can get an exact age for adults. We want to have a range, so possible candidates won't be excluded due to the listed age.

outofthedark
09-30-2007, 08:23 PM
Here's an article on dental age: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-77572007000200005

cold case lady
09-30-2007, 09:06 PM
can bi-polar be diagnosed after death,or only when a person is alive!

Al_B
09-30-2007, 09:18 PM
can bi-polar be diagnosed after death,or only when a person is alive!
I am sure it might be possible but I figure you'd have to interview the people that knew him and then it would be best guess. I don't believe there is a blood test or serotonin levels test for those types of things because it would make it easier to diagnose when a persons living too.

Indy Gal
09-30-2007, 10:32 PM
After reading up here I am sad to say I have nothing to offer. You guys are doing a fantastic job! But I have his face and will remember him so if I ever see anyone who might resemble him, I will pop in and let you guys know!

cold case lady
09-30-2007, 11:19 PM
are there certain markers that show up differently in a cat-scan,you know like when they study the brain of a serial killer.Science has been able to determine that in majority of cases(not sure on statistics)a cat scan showed a significant difference in the neurological balance of the serial killer's brain pattern compared to some one that was completely normal.I know there are many other factors that come into play here also,i could be here all week.

Al_B
09-30-2007, 11:25 PM
I think they do those test on the living.
I think schizophrenia is degenerative but not certain how that works after death as far as being able to tell.
Most serial killers are psychopaths so I think that involves thought and feeling processes or lack there of in them

Teresa Larson
09-30-2007, 11:45 PM
can bi-polar be diagnosed after death,or only when a person is alive!

I am not sure how you think knowing if Lyle was Bi-Polar or not will help find out who he was but this is what I found. My son is Bi-Polar and he has never had this done......Researchers are using advanced brain imaging techniques to examine brain function and structure in people with bipolar disorder, particularly using the functional MRI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging) and positron emission tomography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography). An important area of neuroimaging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroimaging) research focuses on identifying and characterizing networks of interconnected nerve cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_cell) in the brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain), interactions among which form the basis for normal and abnormal behaviors. Researchers hypothesize that abnormalities in the structure and/or function of certain brain circuits could underlie bipolar and other mood disorders, and studies have found anatomical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical) differences in areas such as the prefrontal cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex)[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#_note-34) and hippocampus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus). A person would have to be alive to have this done

cold case lady
10-01-2007, 12:26 AM
If he and any family or close friend's knew he was bi-polar!would help with identification,like appendectomy scare!all a matter of elimination.also as bi-polar is severe depression,his family may have known this but he may not have been diagnosed with bi-polar.

OneLostGrl
10-01-2007, 01:19 AM
I am not sure how you think knowing if Lyle was Bi-Polar or not will help find out who he was but this is what I found. My son is Bi-Polar and he has never had this done......Researchers are using advanced brain imaging techniques to examine brain function and structure in people with bipolar disorder, particularly using the functional MRI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging) and positron emission tomography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography). An important area of neuroimaging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroimaging) research focuses on identifying and characterizing networks of interconnected nerve cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_cell) in the brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain), interactions among which form the basis for normal and abnormal behaviors. Researchers hypothesize that abnormalities in the structure and/or function of certain brain circuits could underlie bipolar and other mood disorders, and studies have found anatomical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical) differences in areas such as the prefrontal cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex)[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#_note-34) and hippocampus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus). A person would have to be alive to have this done

Before being given a diagnosis of Bipolar, I was given many imaging tests to rule out other things and then after my diagnosis, I again went through imaging tests to document any differences in my brain "structure" and response compared to a "normal" brain. The imaging was done at different times over a period of a year while my brain was idle, while I was shown pictures, while I listened to music, while I was told short stories, while there was differences in lighting in a room, while manic, while depressed and while I was asleep.

Most doctors worth anything do imaging tests before handing out such powerful diagnosis'.

***Sorry, back on topic now***

Al_B
10-01-2007, 01:31 AM
Before being given a diagnosis of Bipolar, I was given many imaging tests to rule out other things and then after my diagnosis, I again went through imaging tests to document any differences in my brain "structure" and response compared to a "normal" brain. The imaging was done at different times over a period of a year while my brain was idle, while I was shown pictures, while I listened to music, while I was told short stories, while there was differences in lighting in a room, while manic, while depressed and while I was asleep.

Most doctors worth anything do imaging tests before handing out such powerful diagnosis'.

***Sorry, back on topic now***

wow,never have heard of them doing all that my self and those test are really expensive and does insurence cover them? (I live in a really small town with a very poor population they hand out bi-polar meds to the masses we probably have a higher then normal average of bi-polars and they don't do that,not even if you are going for and ssi check)
Sorry

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 01:36 AM
Before being given a diagnosis of Bipolar, I was given many imaging tests to rule out other things and then after my diagnosis, I again went through imaging tests to document any differences in my brain "structure" and response compared to a "normal" brain. The imaging was done at different times over a period of a year while my brain was idle, while I was shown pictures, while I listened to music, while I was told short stories, while there was differences in lighting in a room, while manic, while depressed and while I was asleep.

Most doctors worth anything do imaging tests before handing out such powerful diagnosis'.

***Sorry, back on topic now***

My son has seen many good doctors over 25 years and none of them have ever done any brain scans. They usually base the diagnosis off of behavior etc. :) Bi-Polar people are not constantly depressed and once they are dead you have no way of knowing if they were.

outofthedark
10-01-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm not the only person who has sent a PM for Lyle that was from another country. Someone sent Steve Shumate a PM for Lyle from Australia. Last that I have heard about this is that Shumate is looking into it

Al_B
10-01-2007, 03:25 PM
so reading this book just got to the part where the old guy turns lyle in for being a commie and he is in the interview he is talking to a short detective and feels the guy is even more hostle towards him because the det.is like 5'6" and lyle is 6'2" but book could just be a fluke just thought it was odd their heights matched

rmf
10-01-2007, 03:42 PM
I'm not the only person who has sent a PM for Lyle that was from another country. Someone sent Steve Shumate a PM for Lyle from Australia. Last that I have heard about this is that Shumate is looking into it

Sgt Shumate has a WS account?

Meyahna
10-01-2007, 04:38 PM
I don't think he was necessarily bi-polar many people commit suicide just because the world sucks. Btw, rmf, in answer to your last pm I live in France for 29 years while I dk if you've ever been here so I think I know better how it is here.

As far as Lyle is concerned he is definitely not on the Doe Network or the Nampn, if you want to find him you must go out of the beaten tracks.

rmf
10-01-2007, 05:28 PM
Btw, rmf, in answer to your last pm I live in France for 29 years while I dk if you've ever been here so I think I know better how it is here.



Perhaps it would have been better to address this debate in a PM like I did, since it's off topic and Jeana specifically asked for us not to do this so that this thread does not suffer?

In any event, I am second generation American on one side (from France) and a few more generations removed on the other side, so I am about 75% ethnically French. A good segment (on one side) of my extended family are still in France. I travel there at least 3 times a year (finances allowing) and have spent extended periods there since my childhood as well, in both Paris AND the Tarn region. In fact, I'll be leaving to go there in a few weeks again. My great Aunt lives in Paris in the 16th Arr. and I can't wait to see her!

Congrats on your many years in France! :)

outofthedark
10-01-2007, 06:24 PM
Sgt Shumate has a WS account?


No. I'm saying that Shumate is looking into the possible match. The PM's name is Chris Lane (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1331dmnsw.html)

Meyahna
10-01-2007, 08:41 PM
Perhaps it would have been better to address this debate in a PM like I did, since it's off topic and Jeana specifically asked for us not to do this so that this thread does not suffer?

In any event, I am second generation American on one side (from France) and a few more generations removed on the other side, so I am about 75% ethnically French. A good segment (on one side) of my extended family are still in France. I travel there at least 3 times a year (finances allowing) and have spent extended periods there since my childhood as well, in both Paris AND the Tarn region. In fact, I'll be leaving to go there in a few weeks again. My great Aunt lives in Paris in the 16th Arr. and I can't wait to see her!

Congrats on your many years in France! :)


I didn't see anything wrong with our discussion, not any snide remark from my parts nor from yours. But I won't talk more about it I was just telling the facts and since you just don't want to believe them I just can't do anything. Btw, Paris is not at all representative of France. And as far as the Tarn is concerned not either see its proximity to mediterranean countries.

coldcaseman
10-01-2007, 09:17 PM
As far as Lyle is concerned he is definitely not on the Doe Network or the Nampn, if you want to find him you must go out of the beaten tracks. His Doe Network case# is 233MWA. He is also on the National Centerfor Missing Adults case# WA-John Doe 405.

coldcaseman
10-01-2007, 09:20 PM
As far as Lyle is concerned he is definitely not on the Doe Network or the Nampn, if you want to find him you must go out of the beaten tracks.The Doe Network case# is actually 233UMWA. Sorry.

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Catholics have always believed that if you commited suicide your soul would go to hell. They aren't nearly as strict as they used to be regarding this and a lot of other things. (Thank God LOL) I can't imagine that all of the people in France do not care about religion either way religion and being bi-polar do not play any part in finding out who Lyle is. IMO If he was bi-polar we will never have any way of knowing unless of course we find his family. Another thing I have thought about is this Maybe when someone saw him pacing he was waiting for the mailman to get there so he could give him the letter he had written to his family along with his wallet and personal things. Maybe his family already knows he is dead and wouldn't think to look for an unidentified person in trying to seach for him.:) One more thing did the police ever check the bus stations to see if there was some luggage or bag left unclaimed around that time?

Al_B
10-01-2007, 09:27 PM
but I don't think the post office was that far away. I know in the small town next door to us everyone there has a PO box and no mailmen
post address for Amanda Park
http://www.manta.com/comsite5/bin/pddnb_company.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=3550&id=655ykh

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 09:34 PM
but I don't think the post office was that far away. I know in the small town next door to us everyone there has a PO box and no mailmen
post address for Amanda Park
http://www.manta.com/comsite5/bin/pddnb_company.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=3550&id=655ykh


Yes you are probably right I didn't think about that. :doh: I am going to see if I can find out if it was near the motel.

Al_B
10-01-2007, 09:37 PM
Information about the area
http://www.quinaultrainforest.com/index.html

laini
10-01-2007, 10:17 PM
His Doe Network case# is 233MWA. He is also on the National Centerfor Missing Adults case# WA-John Doe 405.

I think what she means is "Lyle's" identity as a missing person is not listed on either site.

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 11:29 PM
I don't remember seeing anything about this but what are the possibilites of him being in a mental hospital? He leaves there to go to the motel so he could commit suicide. He wouldn't be able to do that in a mental hospital. That could also be why he didn't have anything with him and the clothes he had on belonged to someone else at the mental hospital. Just a few thoughts. :twocents:

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 11:36 PM
Information about the area
http://www.quinaultrainforest.com/index.html

You are correct the Post Office was about 2 blocks away so JD could have walked there.

cold case lady
10-01-2007, 11:40 PM
after checking it out some more i get the feeling that the the amanda park motel and the address he gave where random.that he was looking for a motel,saw the address in idaho at the same time,so used it.you know how he possibly wrote the address down as maridan.that could be one thing he did write correctly,he could have come from the mexico area i wonder!

Al_B
10-01-2007, 11:55 PM
You are correct the Post Office was about 2 blocks away so JD could have walked there.
I checked for both places just in case the Idaho address is a little farther but still not that far like 1.4 miles
Grey Hound is close by in boise as well

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 12:23 AM
what i meant is not the actual address he gave but the meridan part might be where he came from or did at one time in his life.His family might be there!

Meyahna
10-02-2007, 07:15 AM
I think what she means is "Lyle's" identity as a missing person is not listed on either site.

Yes, thanks, of course that's what I meant.

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 07:36 AM
what about the 1019 address in meridan,is there such an address there or a progress ave.

outofthedark
10-02-2007, 06:42 PM
what about the 1019 address in meridan,is there such an address there or a progress ave.

The address he gave is an actual one. The address he gave was for a Best Western in Idaho

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 10:34 PM
thank you outofthedark!notice i was talking about meridan in mexico.I realize the address he gave was a real address in idaho.I was meaning trying to find out about the 1019 and/or the progress ave part in mexico.

Al_B
10-03-2007, 09:29 PM
I think when I stayed at the Best Western a couple of years ago they had book that gave the listings for all the best western's some included small maps showing location in city of some choices so he could have gotten it anywhere. I believe they also ask for ID and may even make a copy of it but I couldn't tell you how long they keep them though(not sure if they keep them for any amount of time but might for audit purposes)

cold case lady
10-04-2007, 12:16 AM
that's what i thought to Al b! That he was looking for motel and the other address was there to,so he used it. :cool:

Al_B
10-04-2007, 08:37 AM
you know reading this book and I am not that far into it yet they have mentioned a couple of places in Canada that I had to search the net just to know where they are (I would have assumed them to be in New York just because the people live there,but I was wrong) I will make a list to post later and see what everyone thinks.

Al_B
10-07-2007, 02:51 PM
OK so they mention a Shoal lake(one in canada) in the book but there is a Shoal point near NY and quebec
they also mention l'isle verte ,grande isle, isle a la motte
and they make mention of the Adirondacks

cold case lady
10-08-2007, 02:55 AM
the references your talking about(what is the book called)is that the same one everyone thinks he took his name and address from?

Al_B
10-08-2007, 03:03 AM
well, name but yes places in you must remember this by joyce carol oates

dark_shadows
10-10-2007, 08:03 PM
OK so they mention a Shoal lake(one in canada) in the book but there is a Shoal point near NY and quebec
they also mention l'isle verte ,grande isle, isle a la motte
and they make mention of the Adirondacks
Dearest Al_B,:blowkiss:
I have not read the book. I live a very short distance from Grand Isle and La Motte. The spellings that you show are different, but are these places in the book listed as being in Vermont?

Respectfully,
dark_shadows

Al_B
10-10-2007, 08:47 PM
well the I figured they would be close to New York somewhere since that is where they are suppose to live and the places listed are suppose to be where they vacation at. I copied the names as she put them in the book so I don't know honestly where they are at I figured the spelling couldn't have changed that much since it's copyright in 1987 but the book takes place in the 50's but still wouldn't figure a change.

dark_shadows
10-10-2007, 08:58 PM
well the I figured they would be close to New York somewhere since that is where they are suppose to live and the places listed are suppose to be where they vacation at. I copied the names as she put them in the book so I don't know honestly where they are at I figured the spelling couldn't have changed that much since it's copyright in 1987 but the book takes place in the 50's but still wouldn't figure a change.
Dearest Al_B,:blowkiss:
We are right next to New York and Canada. Thank-you you very much for your post.

All of my Love and Respect to you,
dark_shadows

Al_B
10-10-2007, 09:05 PM
no problem I figure there may be something in it not sure and just hoping to be done with the book soon as it is something I wouldn't read normally.But it would make sense since he was at the very wertern part of the US and possibly another country.

dark_shadows
10-10-2007, 09:49 PM
no problem I figure there may be something in it not sure and just hoping to be done with the book soon as it is something I wouldn't read normally.But it would make sense since he was at the very wertern part of the US and possibly another country.
Dearest Al_B,:blowkiss:
I wish that I had the book.

All of my Love and Respect to you,
dark_shadows

laini
10-10-2007, 10:35 PM
Dearest Al_B,:blowkiss:
I wish that I had the book.

All of my Love and Respect to you,
dark_shadows


I got half way through the book and quit because it was so darned depressing. I love her books in general, though.

It seems almost all of Joyce Carol Oates' books take place in the same area (NY and Canada) if I'm remembering right. When reading the book, nothing stood out to really made me think he picked that book for any particular reason. Other than the general theme of suicide, I guess. Someone mentioned maybe he was a "fan" of Oates' books.

dark_shadows
10-10-2007, 10:47 PM
I got half way through the book and quit because it was so darned depressing. I love her books in general, though.

It seems almost all of Joyce Carol Oates' books take place in the same area (NY and Canada) if I'm remembering right. When reading the book, nothing stood out to really made me think he picked that book for any particular reason. Other than the general theme of suicide, I guess. Someone mentioned maybe he was a "fan" of Oates' books.
To my dearest Laini,:blowkiss:
Thank-you so much for your post.
Do you still have the book? If you do, what is said about Grand Isle and Isle LaMotte?

All of my Love and Respect to you,
dark_shadows

Al_B
10-11-2007, 01:13 AM
well even if he was a fan of hers it may still tie in somewhat.
She used to teach at Windsor University before moving to Princeton and she still guest lectures at Windsor U.
I couldn't pin point any bus route from the mentioned areas that went through Meridian though they all seem to go through Coeur D'Alene and Spokane
but with Best Western giving out the books with other locations I don't know.

rmf
10-11-2007, 01:16 AM
I did some research on the book and it seems that it was required reading in a lot of college classes in the late 90s. It's possible he was exposed to it there.

Also, about the Best Western: even in 2001 most Best Westerns were requiring a credit card at check-in. I am not sure if ccm was able to check the Best Western records, but if Lyle stayed there enroute to the Washington Coast, he would have likely had to use a CC to check in, even if he paid cash. The stumbling block that LE have in this case is that there was no crime committed, so getting warrants and court orders for records is much more difficult to justify. It may be possible that Lyle had some past connection to that location/area and used the address for that reason.

Al_B
10-11-2007, 01:28 AM
see I figured he may have had some sort of business job that required travel .
Debit cards can be used as well as credit and I believe licenses are required as well.But I don't know how long they are required to keep said information.
It's also hard to say how long he had been traveling about the states either which could explain how he ended up in Meridian

rmf
10-11-2007, 01:29 AM
Debit cards can be used as well as credit and I believe licenses are required as well.But I don't know how long they are required to keep said information.
It's also hard to say how long he had been traveling about the states either which could explain how he ended up in Meridian

Yup, you're right. I guess I don't assume that he actually stayed there on his way to the coast. He may have been there before or had some familiarity with that area in his past. It's hard to say.

Debbie Miller
10-11-2007, 08:57 AM
In one description of this man it states he didn't have earlobes (never did) and in this thread I read something about him having earlobes. Can someone please clarify this for me?

Teresa Larson
10-11-2007, 01:17 PM
In one description of this man it states he didn't have earlobes (never did) and in this thread I read something about him having earlobes. Can someone please clarify this for me?

He did NOT have ear lobes. :eek:

outofthedark
10-11-2007, 03:32 PM
In one description of this man it states he didn't have earlobes (never did) and in this thread I read something about him having earlobes. Can someone please clarify this for me?

He was born without earlobes

Al_B
10-11-2007, 06:22 PM
I believe the confusion comes in as stating he had no earlobes when they are attached earlobes

docwho3
10-11-2007, 07:01 PM
http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster229.htm
http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2006/02/19/local_news/01news.txt
http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2001/09/18/export21365.txt

Unidentified Male- Found September 17th, 2001 in Grays Harbor, Washington
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38821

I believe cold caseman began posting about post #22 in the following thread.
Grays Harbor, Washington John Doe (cont...)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39426&page=22

Lyle Stevik (Part 2 or 3)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44773

And our current thread:
Lyle Stevik Part 3 (Continued)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53628


Possible match for Lyle Stevik?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52890

Most, if not all, of these links may already have been posted in previous threads about this case. I hope the links help people read up on the case a little.

Al_B
10-11-2007, 08:06 PM
thank you docwho

coldcaseman
10-13-2007, 01:33 AM
There was an interesting segment on 60 minutes Sunday that concerns DNA and determining ancestry. There have been several previous posts wondering if we could establish Lyle's ancestry. The last time I had checked with our state crime lab, they could only determine if a person is Negroid, Caucasoid, or Mongoloid. It sounds like the field of DNA has advanced. One company they profiled on the show was familytreedna, but there are several companies offering these services, including one for Native Americans. The test involves submitting a saliva sample and around $150. I've e-mailed one of the companies to see if they could use a blood sample (I'm sure they can) and what could the results show. I don't know yet how accurate these companies are, and what benefit it would be to have Lyles DNA tested. FYI

cold case lady
10-13-2007, 02:57 AM
that's great ccm.I asked you about that way long ago,hopefully there might be some real progress into this case! :clap: :clap:

Al_B
10-13-2007, 05:31 AM
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genealogical_DNA_test&action=edit&section=15)] Ethnic tests

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Mergefrom.svg/50px-Mergefrom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mergefrom.svg)It has been suggested that Race#The_Marketing_of_Race:_genetic_lineages_as_so cial_lineages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#The_Marketing_of_Race:_genetic_lineages_as_so cial_lineages) be merged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Merging_and_moving_pages) into this article or section. (Discuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genealogical_DNA_test))
Autosomal tests that test the recombining chromosomes are available. These attempt to measure an individual's mixed ethnic heritage. The tests' validity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity) and reliability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_%28statistics%29) have been called into question but they continue to be popular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test

grievousangel
10-13-2007, 07:37 PM
It will be possible to determine from his Y chromosome and his mtDNA (you would want both done I would think) his ancestry more from an anthropological rather than a genealogical standpoint most likely. While it may not pinpoint specifically the Native American tribe or clan he came from (if any), it will be able to determine IF he was of Native American or European etc. ancestry. At least this is my understanding of the process. Since at this point there very little known about this man's identity, it would be at least a place to begin. It has been a while since I researched this subject and perhaps it is possible for even more information to be gleaned from these kinds of tests.

Al_B
10-13-2007, 11:51 PM
I'd just reseach it well and make sure it's a credible lab and get their stats up front for everything

rmf
10-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Hi Everyone:

I wanted to post about a possible lead in this case. I found this information several weeks ago and was asked not to post about it by the LE that are involved in trying to identify Lyle. I've been given the go-ahead by them to post this here now, so here it is:

I did some research on Lyle's missing earlobes. This is a congenital condition called microtia. (This was discussed briefly in one of the other Lyle threads but not really expanded upon.) I began looking at medical websites that discuss microtia and was surprised to discover that a very high percentage of people born with this condition are from the Navajo indian tribe.

http://www.microtia.net/Webpages.asp?WPID=3 (http://www.microtia.net/Webpages.asp?WPID=3)


http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic329.htm (http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic329.htm)


The possibility that Lyle could be Navajo makes sense on some levels. The Navajo live in the four corners area of the Southwest- Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. If Lyle were Navajo then his transiting route to the Washington coast could have taken him north through Idaho and then west towards Washington State. That may explain why Lyle used an Idaho address or may have been familiar with or had ties to that area.

The LE guys on this case (ccm/Sgt Shumate) and I have discussed ideas about how to pursue the Navajo angle. With their encouragement/permission, I will be making contact with some Navajo organizations about this case shortly. I'll keep you all posted on any progress.

Another odd but maybe unrelated coincidence around this case I also wanted to mention is around the Progress Avenue address Lyle used. There is a popular bar band from the Phoenix, Arizona area called SHAKER. In 1999 they released a CD that has a song called "Progress Avenue" on it. Here are the lyrics:

Progress Avenue
http://cdbaby.com/cd/shaker

By Shaker (1999)

Get a new house, work hard every day
Tell me what you got, not a goddamn thing
Neighbors come and go, No one knows your name
Lost on the street, Every house looks the same
Its like liviní in a prison, with no way out
Fences on the street, leave little doubt
Youíre empty deep inside, like a bottle gone dry
A list of all you want, stretches to the sky
Yeah, you wander through each day, thatís all youíre gonna do
On the street of broken dreams, called Progress Avenue

Chorus
Itís a dead end street
In an overgrown town
Where scattered people lay
Like trash on the ground
Shakiní in the night
Tell me what can you do?
Another day lost, another day lost
On Progress Avenue

Strangers in this house, surrounded by the things
Keep us separated and only cost our dreams
They say heaven waits down a two lane
And thereís room for one more car
Roll like the wind, chase that distant star
Letís tear down the night, baby me and you
Crash through these gates on Progress Avenue

Repeat Chorus

Shakiní in the night, tell me what can you do?
Another day lost, another day lost
On Progress Avenue

As I lay awake, sweat runniní down my face
A prisoner of debt, chained up to this place
Stockade in this city, hidden out of view
Disconnected people
Disconnected people
On Progress Avenue
On Progress Avenue
On Progress Avenue

This may just be a coincidence but I thought the lyrics were very interesting.

Babyslims
10-18-2007, 08:17 PM
Hi Everyone:

I wanted to post about a possible lead in this case. I found this information several weeks ago and was asked not to post about it by the LE that are involved in trying to identify Lyle. I've been given the go-ahead by them to post this here now, so here it is:

I did some research on Lyle's missing earlobes. This is a congenital condition called microtia. (This was discussed briefly in one of the other Lyle threads but not really expanded upon.) I began looking at medical websites that discuss microtia and was surprised to discover that a very high percentage of people born with this condition are from the Navajo indian tribe.

http://www.microtia.net/Webpages.asp?WPID=3 (http://www.microtia.net/Webpages.asp?WPID=3)


http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic329.htm (http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic329.htm)


The possibility that Lyle could be Navajo makes sense on some levels. The Navajo live in the four corners area of the Southwest- Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. If Lyle were Navajo then his transiting route to the Washington coast could have taken him north through Idaho and then west towards Washington State. That may explain why Lyle used an Idaho address or may have been familiar with or had ties to that area.

The LE guys on this case (ccm/Sgt Shumate) and I have discussed ideas about how to pursue the Navajo angle. With their encouragement/permission, I will be making contact with some Navajo organizations about this case shortly. I'll keep you all posted on any progress.

Another odd but maybe unrelated coincidence around this case I also wanted to mention is around the Progress Avenue address Lyle used. There is a popular bar band from the Phoenix, Arizona area called SHAKER. In 1999 they released a CD that has a song called "Progress Avenue" on it. Here are the lyrics:

Progress Avenue
http://cdbaby.com/cd/shaker

By Shaker (1999)

Get a new house, work hard every day
Tell me what you got, not a goddamn thing
Neighbors come and go, No one knows your name
Lost on the street, Every house looks the same
Its like liviní in a prison, with no way out
Fences on the street, leave little doubt
Youíre empty deep inside, like a bottle gone dry
A list of all you want, stretches to the sky
Yeah, you wander through each day, thatís all youíre gonna do
On the street of broken dreams, called Progress Avenue

Chorus
Itís a dead end street
In an overgrown town
Where scattered people lay
Like trash on the ground
Shakiní in the night
Tell me what can you do?
Another day lost, another day lost
On Progress Avenue

Strangers in this house, surrounded by the things
Keep us separated and only cost our dreams
They say heaven waits down a two lane
And thereís room for one more car
Roll like the wind, chase that distant star
Letís tear down the night, baby me and you
Crash through these gates on Progress Avenue

Repeat Chorus

Shakiní in the night, tell me what can you do?
Another day lost, another day lost
On Progress Avenue

As I lay awake, sweat runniní down my face
A prisoner of debt, chained up to this place
Stockade in this city, hidden out of view
Disconnected people
Disconnected people
On Progress Avenue
On Progress Avenue
On Progress Avenue

This may just be a coincidence but I thought the lyrics were very interesting.




Wow!!! Some great info for us to go on!! especially that song! is that bar still around?? did anyone ever go there and show pictures? or talk to anyone?

rmf
10-18-2007, 08:20 PM
Wow!!! Some great info for us to go on!! especially that song! is that bar still around?? did anyone ever go there and show pictures? or talk to anyone?

This band apparently has played various places in Arizona, from what I can find out about them, they don't play in exclusively one place. Also they seem to be somewhat inactive based on their website so I'm not sure if they are even still performing.

Teresa Larson
10-18-2007, 08:24 PM
:woohoo: Good going RMF!! I KNEW he was a native American Yaaaa!! I also wonder now IF they are the tribe that is against suicide. That might be why he did committed suicide where he did That way he would be buried and also he wouldn't shame his family if they never knew about it.

Babyslims
10-18-2007, 08:28 PM
This band apparently has played various places in Arizona, from what I can find out about them, they don't play in exclusively one place. Also they seem to be somewhat inactive based on their website so I'm not sure if they are even still performing.



there's an email listed on that site, you might be able to find out :innocent:

rmf
10-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Thanks Teresa! We can't really assume that he's definitely Navajo. But it's worth looking into since the ear issue is predominant in that group of people (about 1:900 births) and also the Japanese (about 1:4000 births).

It is worth ruling out, if not anything else.

rmf
10-18-2007, 08:30 PM
there's an email listed on that site, you might be able to find out :innocent:

LE and I have a plan of action that I'm going to follow for now but they are also on my list. ;)

Thanks for the posts, you are all great. :D

dark_shadows
10-18-2007, 09:25 PM
To my very dearset Rmf,:blowkiss:
Wonderful news and I am so very proud of you.

Your hard work means so much to all. With all of my heart..thank-you.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

Bluecat
10-19-2007, 12:21 AM
Great work RMF - I'm trying to look up Navajo beliefs about suicide, and I stumbled upon an interesting paper - unfortunately it is over 10 years old, but it referenced a couple of things that may reinforce the theory.

1. Of the suicides studied, the Navajo group had a male-to-female ratio of 9.8:1 vs. 4:1 nationally. It was noted that of those suicides studied, the researcher concluded that most of the suicides were impulsive (perhaps exacerbated by alcohol), so that is a point of difference I guess.

2. It was noted that since in Navajo belief it is very bad to see a dead body, most suicides happened away from the home. In some cases, the suicide was done in a place where an enemy could not help but find the body, and in that way the person would enact revenge. This would support Lyle's having traveled away to do this. He may have been intentionally misleading in order to ensure that his family would never ever know about his death but assume that he had cut times and was living off the reservation somewhere.

I hope that this line of inquiry is fruitful. It woud be nice to put Lyle to rest.

rmf
10-19-2007, 12:56 AM
^^^
Wow, bluecat, that is really, really interesting!!!! Thanks for posting that info. As I said, there is no guarantee on this theory but it's worth a try and luckily LE agree it is worth checking into.

cold case lady
10-19-2007, 01:21 AM
GREAT WORK!
Interesting find! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
can you tell me much about the navajo indian's or do you have a link to any photos?

KT Can
10-19-2007, 03:31 AM
Great work RMF & Bluecat!!!

Was searching around on net tonight & I came across this guy, not sure if he's been looked at yet.....

http://charleyproject.org/cases/t/tsosie_kelvin.html

Al_B
10-19-2007, 06:45 AM
with the microtia wouldn't the be scarring from ear repair?
just asking
http://www.microtia.com/

Babyslims
10-19-2007, 10:24 AM
somehow I was searching for "missing son" and an article on Hiram Torres popped up, I see there's tons of articles but cant find a real picture of him...

http://www.yaleherald.com/article-p.php?Article=185

rmf
10-19-2007, 02:18 PM
with the microtia wouldn't the be scarring from ear repair?
just asking
http://www.microtia.com/

Good question. If you read the medical websites, Microtia is found in varying degrees of severity; from severe malformation of the ear to the less severe absence of the lower earlobes. Lyle's has the milder form, he was just missing the lower part of his earlobes which would have probably made surgery unnecessary.

Al_B
10-19-2007, 08:06 PM
ok but looking at the autopsy photos it look like he had lobes but thay were attached as opposed to none at all:confused:

rmf
10-20-2007, 01:09 AM
ok but looking at the autopsy photos it look like he had lobes but thay were attached as opposed to none at all:confused:

From what I've learned he did not have the LOWER bulby part of the earlobe which is a mild form of microtia.

Al_B
10-20-2007, 05:53 AM
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/earth/Life/images/earlobes.jpghttp://www.windows.ucar.edu/earth/Life/images/earlobes.jpg http://www.jbhs.k12.nf.ca/biology/EARS.HTM
free hanging and attached lobeshttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/1650655035_e51652d415_o.jpglyles lobes

Chloekins
10-25-2007, 09:34 PM
Good question. If you read the medical websites, Microtia is found in varying degrees of severity; from severe malformation of the ear to the less severe absence of the lower earlobes. Lyle's has the milder form, he was just missing the lower part of his earlobes which would have probably made surgery unnecessary.

Im not exactly sure where the idea that this gentleman has microtia came from. It is a stretch to even call it mild microatia. Is someone basing this dx on the fact that he had attached earlobes? There is a big difference between a congenital deformity and attached earlobes.

If I remember correctly from Human Genetics (taken many years ago) attached earlobes are most common in the east Asian peoples.

On a side note, he looks eastern European to me. Possibly Croatian or Bosnian. Im not seeing Native American at all. :(

outofthedark
10-26-2007, 12:07 AM
Possibly Croatian or Bosnian.


I thought Bosnian too, maybe Turkish. His facial structure appears European to me for some reason

Someone should do another reconstruction of him where his nasal bridge looks different because I have a feeling that he has the same nose as I do, but he seems to have broken his nose at one point and it never healed properly

Teresa Larson
10-26-2007, 12:54 AM
He is too tall to be an Asian. They are small people.

Gina_M
10-26-2007, 01:47 AM
He is too tall to be an Asian. They are small people.

In general, yes, but there are exceptions. One of the world's tallest men is Chinese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bao_Xishun

I also went to school with some tall people from the Philippines.

Al_B
10-26-2007, 10:43 AM
If I knew more of my daughters heritage I'd suggest those because somehow they both ended up with attached lobes and they did not get them from me. I think they have german and some native american but no sure what else(they have those 2 from my side 2 and their dad had the attaches lobes I might carry the recessive gene)

Angie4b1g
10-26-2007, 10:52 AM
This is more than I'd ever thought about earlobes, by far.

So are we now saying he HAD earlobes, they were just attached?

Al_B
10-26-2007, 11:01 AM
I posted his lobe above along with 2 others one attached and one free hanging

Chloekins
10-26-2007, 12:12 PM
In general, yes, but there are exceptions. One of the world's tallest men is Chinese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bao_Xishun

I also went to school with some tall people from the Philippines.

Some of the tribes from Siberia that have mongol descent are very tall and big boned. Genetics are always a gamble, you dont have to look like your ancesters.

rmf
10-27-2007, 04:26 AM
Im not exactly sure where the idea that this gentleman has microtia came from.

The autopsy report and the detective(s) working on this case.

Chloekins
10-27-2007, 03:49 PM
The autopsy report and the detective(s) working on this case.


Ahh well that would settle then. :doh:
Sorry about the confusion.

Al_B
10-27-2007, 08:44 PM
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Interesting. I did some Googling and found out that being born without earlobes is a rare, recessive genetic trait. For example, one site said that Wilbur Wright had this trait.


He doesn't look like he had any other obvious deformities that would be associated with a congential problem like microtia ("little ear") or other birth defects. I wonder if he had any problems with hearing that is associated with these disorders?

It would be unusual (IMO) to have an accident that destroyed the earlobes bilaterally without doing other significant damage to the ears/face. If the had been in an accident and had reconstructive surgery, it seems to be standard practice to fix the lobes as well as the rest of the external ear. So I'm leaning towards genetics on this, which is quite interesting.


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I'm sorry, I didn't explain the term "missing ear lobes". They weren't removed, he never had them. Most people have lobes that droop (and seem to droop more when you get old!) A few people have no "lobe", which would make it tough to wear earrings. There was no book recovered, I found the connection to the book through a Google search. I bought the book through Amazon. I always felt Lyle was from a middle-upper income family. No signs he was involved in manual labor, no injuries, well read, articulate, clean, took care of his appearance, etc. I'm not saying that people from lower incomes don't have those traits, that was my impression."





I found this in the grays habor thread so I was under the impression it wasn't that, but not sure what to make of it people with attached lobes may look lobeless so I don't know

Al_B
10-28-2007, 12:15 AM
lyles photos from ccm and docwho
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e/detlyle2.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/detlyle2.jpg)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e/detlle3c.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/detlle3c.jpg)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e/detlyle4.jpg (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/docwho3/lyle/detlyle4.jpg)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e/detlle5c.jpg
you can see his ears in a couple of them

cold case lady
11-05-2007, 01:49 AM
is there any recent news to report on this case.Is any one having any luck!

SoccerMomof2boys
11-05-2007, 04:44 PM
Has Kevin James Charles ever been considered? I know the eye color is off.

http://ca.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=9900014&orgPrefix=RCMP&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_CA&searchLang=en_CA

coldcaseman
11-11-2007, 10:39 PM
Has Kevin James Charles ever been considered? I know the eye color is off.

http://ca.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=9900014&orgPrefix=RCMP&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_CA&searchLang=en_CA His nose is pretty wide, plus, he's abput 6 inches shorter.

outofthedark
11-12-2007, 01:23 AM
From another forum, I found out that Chris Lane has unoffically been ruled out as Lyle. I still have yet to hear from Shumate about my email to him! When I do get my email from him, I will post it here

His nose is pretty wide, plus, he's abput 6 inches shorter.

Eye color is not consistent either. The Age Progression doesn't look like Lyle

CCM, I have a question for you- Did you make any autopsy findings suggesting Lyle might have been a smoker? This could help rule out any PMs who were smokers

coldcaseman
11-15-2007, 10:57 AM
From another forum, I found out that Chris Lane has unoffically been ruled out as Lyle. I still have yet to hear from Shumate about my email to him! When I do get my email from him, I will post it here



Eye color is not consistent either. The Age Progression doesn't look like Lyle

CCM, I have a question for you- Did you make any autopsy findings suggesting Lyle might have been a smoker? This could help rule out any PMs who were smokers There was nothing to suggest that he was a smoker. No indications in the lungs, no staining of the teeth or fingers, and nothing on his clothing or in the motel room.