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View Full Version : Urs Von Aesch/Ylenia Llenard Connection?


christine2448
09-19-2007, 01:23 PM
THE body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland.


Ylenia Llenard was snatched from a public swimming pool in the Swiss town of Appenzell on July 31.
Her photo was shown to Kate and Gerry McCann as police across Europe probed links between the two cases.

MORE AT LINK (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found)



Could this guy have taken Maddy?

What do you sleuthers think? Possibility? No way? Timelines? Who is he?

Rino
09-19-2007, 01:30 PM
THE body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland.


Ylenia Llenard was snatched from a public swimming pool in the Swiss town of Appenzell on July 31.
Her photo was shown to Kate and Gerry McCann as police across Europe probed links between the two cases.

MORE AT LINK (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found)



Could this guy have taken Maddy?

What do you sleuthers think? Possibility? No way? Timelines? Who is he?
You're fast. You started this thread while I was replying on another:)

Could be...
(snip)
Investigating officers said they had reopened several cases of missing children dating from the 1980s in Switzerland.
They refused, however, to confirm reports in Swiss newspapers that there could be a link between the disappearance of Ylenia and British girl Madeleine McCann, who was reported missing in Portugal in May.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22429527-12377,00.html

AfterMidnight
09-19-2007, 01:45 PM
This is all off the top-of-my head, but. . .

"They've taken her."

"Von Aesch, originally from the Swiss canton of Thurgau, had been living with his wife in Benimantell, near Benidorm in Spain, since 1990."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22429527-12377,00.html

In the beginning, I believe Kate said she felt they were being stalked. Kate and Gerry also felt she had been taken to Spain, if I recall correctly.
There was a strange man in some of the photos? What does this Von Aesch guy look like, any pics?

Is it possible Kate, Gerry, and LE knew something about a pedo being in the area?

I'm grasping at straws, trying to put things together.

colomom
09-19-2007, 01:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_lead_to_maddie-GB.htm

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

(The last link mentions Ylenia's DNA was found in the van but, no DNA from Madeleine?)

AfterMidnight
09-19-2007, 02:04 PM
Thank you, colomom, you really are a gem.

"Von Aesch was also briefly a suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann). He was thought to be close to Praia da Luz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praia_da_Luz) when Madeleine McCann disappeared. A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

You really would have thought Portuguese LE would have been all over this. Maybe they are and the McCanns are a red herring like I stated elsewhere, in the Jury room I believe?

Then again, maybe not.

KOOL LOOK
09-19-2007, 02:18 PM
You're fast. You started this thread while I was replying on another:)

Could be...
(snip)
Investigating officers said they had reopened several cases of missing children dating from the 1980s in Switzerland.
They refused, however, to confirm reports in Swiss newspapers that there could be a link between the disappearance of Ylenia and British girl Madeleine McCann, who was reported missing in Portugal in May.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22429527-12377,00.html


The part I found of interest in the article you referenced is the little 5 yr old girl was found by a private individual who had continued to search and look for the little girl in the same area the man was found shot the same day she went missing and who had also shot another man in the same woods, who survived. How shoddy can police work be? Two men shot in the woodds, a girl is missing, her clothing found in woodlands the same day she is missing with his dna on them.

Then a private individual who continued to search on their own, Bless him, found her. I don't understand why these woods were not searched, geez. Too many red flags to ignore. Why was he there shooting himself and another? His van was a first red flag for me, being it was the same type and color spotted at the pool. Police should have been all over this. We are just now finding her. It's the middle of September. over a month and a half has passed since his killing, van located, geez.

docwho3
09-19-2007, 02:21 PM
From the wikpedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

" . . . Von Aesch was also briefly a suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. He was thought to be close to Praia da Luz when Madeleine McCann disappeared.. . ."


". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!

Still that about a white van could be a red herring, a false clue that leads us to ignore that he may have been driving a different vehicle or may not have used that vehicle when Madeleine was "disappeared."

Both girls were blond haired!
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_lead_to_maddie-GB.htm
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg
pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

Note: The original links were posted first by colomom and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.

christine2448
09-19-2007, 02:43 PM
Great stuff y'all are finding! I am at work and keep checking in...thanks for all the links and info.

docwho3
09-19-2007, 03:22 PM
". . .The parents of Madeleine McCann have been told that police have no immediate plans to summon them for a fresh interview.
Gerry and Kate McCann were also informed by a prosecutor in Portugal that detectives could be following "other lines of inquiry" apart from them. . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070919/tuk-mccanns-will-not-face-re-interview-6323e80_1.html

I wonder if the L.E. is reading WS - :)

CaliKid
09-19-2007, 03:40 PM
So what happened to the man who was shot by Urs Von Aesch and went to the hospital? Did he die? Was he released? Did anyone speak to him about what he saw?

KOOL LOOK
09-19-2007, 03:56 PM
So what happened to the man who was shot by Urs Von Aesch and went to the hospital? Did he die? Was he released? Did anyone speak to him about what he saw?

Exactly, after reading another link, it mentioned they were awaiting his recovery to speak with him for they believed he was a person of interest in that he had information concerning the abduction and disposal of the girl. They went on to say in that link also, so do go read these links entirely, because it's in one of them, and I don't remember, that they suspect he was shot to silence him due to information he had. Or that he tried to hinder the disposal and burial and was shot in the abdomen. Then nothing else said about him.

This seems it would be of very big interest to many.

docwho3
09-19-2007, 04:01 PM
So what happened to the man who was shot by Urs Von Aesch and went to the hospital? Did he die? Was he released? Did anyone speak to him about what he saw?

Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."
". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc

Still looking up info. Hope this helps a little until then.


Edited to add: Since this Von Aesch man lived in spain awhle I wonder if this might be partly why the mccanns were mentioning they think Madeleine is in spain?

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen.

". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days.” Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.
Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert

SleuthMom
09-19-2007, 04:27 PM
I just read that the survivor is in the hospital listed in serious condition. I want to assume they are waiting to see how he handles his injuries to then talk to him. :(

AfterMidnight
09-19-2007, 04:34 PM
From what I've found so far, there isn't any hard evidence Van Aesch is a pedophile, nor is there any evidence Ylena, the young Swiss girl, was raped. From different blogs, etc., I've read Van Aesch may have been a procurer and was once convicted in relation to a threatened kidnapping.

The man in the hospital may have been Van Aesch's contact for the procurement of the girl or, he may have been an accomplice threatening to turn him in; he may have been someone who just stumbled across the truth. It seems a third party, someone who wouldn't quit hunting for Ylena, did/will collect the reward money.

It's strange to me that Van Aesch would have parked his white van right in front of the McCann's apartment, if indeed it was HIS van. Seems a little too obvious. Perhaps he was renting a place close by, and IF he did abduct Madeleine it's possible he, or an accomplice, used a rental car. Of course, that's strictly conjecture.

It seems a bit odd that whomever at the resort telephoned the McCanns about getting a sitter just happened to do it on the night of her abduction. Mayhap they wanted to be sure no one would be there?

If this is a pedophile ring I'd imagine its tentacles reach into every nook and cranny and many children are abducted by special order, such as age, hair and eye color, etc, so it wouldn't be beyond the rhealm of possibility to suspect a tip was given about the pretty little blonde girl with the beautiful eyes.

All conjecture based on what I've read. I didn't put it in theories because I don't have a solid theory yet, just brainstorming.

SleuthMom
09-19-2007, 04:41 PM
Aftermidnight:

It's strange to me that Van Aesch would have parked his white van right in front of the McCann's apartment, if indeed it was HIS van. Seems a little too obvious. Perhaps he was renting a place close by, and IF he did abduct Madeleine it's possible he, or an accomplice, used a rental car. Of course, that's strictly conjecture.

Well, it is claimed he parked for 10 days near the house of the girl that was found dead.

It seems a bit odd that whomever at the resort telephoned the McCanns about getting a sitter just happened to do it on the night of her abduction. Mayhap they wanted to be sure no one would be there?

That's why I do not buy that the Mc Canns felt they were being "watched" IF that was the case, I want to assume they would not have been so stupid of leaving all those kids by themselves.

AfterMidnight
09-19-2007, 04:45 PM
A while back I posted somewhere this case may have been a sting gone horribly wrong. I believe that's still a possibility.

Jdee
09-19-2007, 04:57 PM
Just watch.. now that we are talking about this here... we will soon see it making headlines in the McCann case. Just about everything has else we have discussed here has.
I do think it deserves to be investigated to it's fullest. Sometimes we get lost in the smoke and totally miss the fire.

BirdieBoo
09-19-2007, 06:46 PM
If Kate thought they were being stalked then that makes the neglect of the children even more egregious IMO.

Pinkhammer
09-19-2007, 07:42 PM
How many white vans do you suppose are owned or rented in the Algarve?

colomom
09-19-2007, 08:02 PM
His wife is interviewed:

http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/13574

Edwards20
09-19-2007, 08:50 PM
It seems a bit odd that whomever at the resort telephoned the McCanns about getting a sitter just happened to do it on the night of her abduction.
(slight threadjack) .... I missed this somewhere in all the threads here. Can someone elaborate ? Or direct me to another thread ?

strach304
09-19-2007, 09:06 PM
A major problem with tracking possible suspects in Madeleine's case imo is that it is a major tourist area with strangers to the left and strangers to the right. Someone or something wouldn't be noticed as new to the area or out of place. How can LE possibly thoroughly investigate anyone there at that resort as guests or even employees? Especially with so many coming from different countries.

Anyone that followed the Ben Ownby and Shawn Hornbeck cases remember police didn't originally investigate Devlin early on because they checked and he had no criminal record? Makes me grateful for the sex offender registry database that we have here but it still isn't helpful in any case where you have a perp that has never been caught.

hcc2007
09-19-2007, 09:19 PM
If it turns out that Madeleine is no longer with us, then for her sake I would rather it WAS her parents oversedating her. It would be a far kinder & gentler way to go than the alternative, which is unbearable to consider. Poor little Yienna.

If I were the police, I'd be jumping all over this one. Among other things, I'd be measuring the distance from the Swiss swimming pool to where Yienna was found and counting the minutes between her disappearance and the shooting of the man. Using these coordinates you can define a radius of search for Madeleine.

A guy who snatches children, assuming he's done it before, will have a modus operandi that's probably similar from one case to the next.

Horrible, horrible. :( My heart breaks for these girls.

CaliKid
09-20-2007, 12:49 AM
(slight threadjack) .... I missed this somewhere in all the threads here. Can someone elaborate ? Or direct me to another thread ?

Actually I don't think it's weird at all. Mrs. Fenn heard Madeleine crying on Tues. May 1. She reported it to the resort managers at some point, but we don't know when. Giving the Ocean Club time to track down who might have left their children alone, I can see it taking until Thursday before they spoke to the parents.

CaliKid
09-20-2007, 12:55 AM
http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/13574

From the article: The 46-year-old received a bullet in the chest before fleeing his aggressor, and is currently in intensive care. Police believe he may have been one of the last to see the missing girl, but his health is too poor to allow him to be questioned.

This happened over a month ago, so you would assume that, unless he died, the shot man would be able to fill in some blanks. We should know more about this by now.

Kermode Bear
09-22-2007, 12:21 AM
Is it possible Kate, Gerry, and LE knew something about a pedo being in the area? (Quote)

Just one more reason not to leave your little children alone!!!!!!

AfterMidnight
09-22-2007, 02:21 AM
Is it possible Kate, Gerry, and LE knew something about a pedo being in the area? (Quote)

Just one more reason not to leave your little children alone!!!!!!

Could we maybe, possibly, hopefully, get past leaving the children alone - which EVERYONE agrees was stupid, wrong, horrible, criminal, etc., ad nauseum, and get on track to finding Madeleine? Is that too much to ask?

april4sky
09-22-2007, 02:27 AM
Could we maybe, possibly, hopefully, get past leaving the children alone - which EVERYONE agrees was stupid, wrong, horrible, criminal, etc., ad nauseum, and get on track to finding Madeleine? Is that too much to ask?

Agreed. If only!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

docwho3
09-22-2007, 02:31 AM
I have posted this question/comment on another forum and so I pose it here too:

I want to comment on something but before I do I would like to explain that the comment is not based on any desire to belittle the parents for not watching their children. I will leave such comments and possible judgements for after the case is solved. This comment of mine has to do with the case, as in what might have happened in a way.

Ok, my comment:
Someone posted saying ". . . It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them . . ." and although at first it might seem that is true, in fact they may have done just that very thing although possibly unintentionally.

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?

AfterMidnight
09-22-2007, 02:35 AM
I have posted this question/comment on another forum and so I pose it here too:

I want to comment on something but before I do I would like to explain that the comment is not based on any desire to belittle the parents for not watching their children. I will leave such comments and possible judgements for after the case is solved. This comment of mine has to do with the case, as in what might have happened in a way.

Ok, my comment:
Someone posted saying ". . . It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them . . ." and although at first it might seem that is true, in fact they may have done just that very thing although possibly unintentionally.

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?

I agree with EVERYTHING, except "sale flag". I've said it before and now again, this was done for a reason and it wasn't a child sale or give away. I believe it was a sting of some sort, which sort remains to be seen.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 02:41 AM
I agree with EVERYTHING, except "sale flag". I've said it before and now again, this was done for a reason and it wasn't a child sale or give away. I believe it was a sting of some sort, which sort remains to be seen. Can you elaborate please? I have noticed your short comments before about a sting gone bad but did not catch the details of the theory (sorry.) I am willing to look at all theories. (I have no pet theory on this case so far and that may make my posts seem to first favor one theory and then another but I am trying pieces of the puzzle to see what fits where.)

AfterMidnight
09-22-2007, 02:54 AM
Can you elaborate please? I have noticed your short comments before about a sting gone bad but did not catch the details of the theory (sorry.) I am willing to look at all theories. (I have no pet theory on this case so far and that may make my posts seem to first favor one theory and then another but I am trying pieces of the puzzle to see what fits where.)

We all agree the parents were wrong, horrible, etc., to leave the children alone when they could have afforded a sitter; when they were warned about burglars; when it's just plain stupid and negligent to do so. OK so far? No offense, I'm trying to hang onto this myself.

WHY would 2 intelligent parents leave the kiddies alone like that when there was no reason? It wasn't money, I don't believe. And, if they had felt they were being stalked, all the more reason not to. WHY did they? Did they want their children taken? Did they sell one of them? Were they stupid? Ignorant? Selfish? I don't believe any of the foregoing. I believe there was a REASON they did what they did, leaving them alone, knowing full well all of the consequences. The only scenerio that makes any sense to me is they were working in conjunction with the police or someone, in order to entrap a pedophile/pedophile ring, using their children as bait. The problem is, the "sting" went wrong and Madeleine disappeared when that wasn't supposed to happen.

Don't ask me who or why 'cause I don't know. I only know that's the only scenerio that makes any sense to me, especially since that white van was parked by the apartment for a while. Don't tell me no one knew who owned it, and don't tell me there weren't informants in or near the resort.

Yeah, it is easier to believe the McCanns killed their child and hid her body. I almost want to believe that. It is the simplest explanation, but it doesn't explain their "apparent" stupidity in leaving the children alone. But, now that I think about it, Scott Peterson, wasn't the brightest light on the tree either.

'Round and 'round and 'round we go and where we stop, nobody knows.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 03:05 AM
First, Thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts. I appreciate that very much.

. . .WHY would 2 intelligent parents leave the kiddies alone like that when there was no reason? It wasn't money, I don't believe. And, if they had felt they were being stalked, all the more reason not to. WHY did they? . . .
Question: What do we think, from news reports, that the parents knew at that time about being watched? From reading the reports I got the idea that much of that information was developed after Madeleine's disappearance and not before. From news reports, are we sure the parents were aware of the alleged watching and knew that it might be something sinister?

(Those are real questions and not meant as argument or sarcasm.)

narlacat
09-22-2007, 03:11 AM
I have posted this question/comment on another forum and so I pose it here too:

I want to comment on something but before I do I would like to explain that the comment is not based on any desire to belittle the parents for not watching their children. I will leave such comments and possible judgements for after the case is solved. This comment of mine has to do with the case, as in what might have happened in a way.

Ok, my comment:
Someone posted saying ". . . It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them . . ." and although at first it might seem that is true, in fact they may have done just that very thing although possibly unintentionally.

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?

Doc, I like your posts, thanks also for the links.

I think this is what happened, someone was keeping tabs- that or poor Maddie woke up and an opportunist seized the moment, the latter is against the odds I guess but god knows evil lurks on every corner just waiting.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 03:43 AM
How many white vans do you suppose are owned or rented in the Algarve? Actually that's a good question. Does anyone know the answer as to owned vs rental of white vans in that area?

Von Aesch had been living in spain.

" . . .Von Aesch, originally from the Swiss canton of Thurgau, had been living with his wife in Benimantell, near Benidorm in Spain, since 1990. . ."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22429527-12377,00.html

I also wonder about that news article where it said, ". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Note: I added the bolding.

Did the numbers match? Did anyone write down the numbers? We need to refine the information search. How many white vans with spanish number plates are owned or rented in that area?

AfterMidnight
09-22-2007, 03:53 AM
First, Thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts. I appreciate that very much.


Question: What do we think, from news reports, that the parents knew at that time about being watched? From reading the reports I got the idea that much of that information was developed after Madeleine's disappearance and not before. From news reports, are we sure the parents were aware of the alleged watching and knew that it might be something sinister?

(Those are real questions and not meant as argument or sarcasm.)

From what I think I understand (and that is subject to evaluation) from what I've read is this: Kate felt they were being watched. And yes, it was developed AFTER Madeleine went missing. I don't believe anyone reported it prior to her disappearance because there wasn't much reason to.

Now, "are we sure the parents were aware of the alleged watching" - NO. We don't know anything from the news reports. We only knows what we read in the papers. Sad. Maybe I should follow my own advice, "don't believe everything you read". But. . . . .if we can't believe that do we have ANY facts at all, except Madeleine is missing?

All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child, parents who left the kiddies alone, a white van, one dead man, one dead child, one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money.

I ask myself, what do we have here? One parent gets fed up, offs the kid, tells the spouse, then they scramble around to hide the body in a frig/ice chest/makeshift grave/whatever and scream abduction. Then they have friends who set up a fund and they sell posters and bracelets on behalf of their missing child. If they were guilty, surely they would see the idiocy in that? Maybe not. Some of my doctors aren't that bright either and I have to give them clues to the latest treatments. At any rate, 25 dqys later they rent a car and load the body in the boot? A wee bit small, eh? Now we "hear/read" about body fluids, hair, whatever the traffic will bear, and we are supposed to believe it. Maybe. Maybe they dug up the body in the dead of night, under cover of a cloudy night when the rest of the world was sleeping and transported the remains to the trunk of the car where the hair fell out, body fluids leaked and left clues up the wazoo. Maybe the body was in a suitcase which had been sitting somewhere for a while and placed innocently in the trunk and leaked all over, but the hair wouldn't have fallen out of the suitcase so that presents a wee problem.

They couldn't have chopped her up or they would have (would they?) found traces of blood in the bathtub, the usual chopping place. If they froze the body it wouldn't have fit in the suitcase, unless, ahah, it was a big one like I had. She was a small child after all.

Next step is - where do you dump the suitcase? One that big is bound to cause problems. Some imbecile is bound to find it and open it. For weeks there was a large duffle bag in a small wooded area on the exit ramp of a major highway I travel. I wouldn't go near the thing. This case warned me off of that. I could spend the rest of my life explaining why I was interest in that "particular" bag. No thanks.

Tomorrow is another day. Hopefully I will have more brain cells to work with. I think Colomom ought to get in here with her thoughts.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 03:55 AM
Doc, I like your posts, thanks also for the links.

I think this is what happened, someone was keeping tabs- that or poor Maddie woke up and an opportunist seized the moment, the latter is against the odds I guess but god knows evil lurks on every corner just waiting. Thank you for the kind words.

I also am grateful for you sharing your thoughts on the case.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 04:04 AM
From what I think I understand (and that is subject to evaluation) from what I've read is this: Kate felt they were being watched. And yes, it was developed AFTER Madeleine went missing. I don't believe anyone reported it prior to her disappearance because there wasn't much reason to.

Now, "are we sure the parents were aware of the alleged watching" - NO. We don't know anything from the news reports. We only knows what we read in the papers. . . ". . .What we read in the papers . . ."
That's what I am asking. I was not meaning to ask for absolute proof it really was a fact. I only meant is there anything in the papers (I assume by "papers" you mean some news papers) that says the parents knew at the time they were being watched and that they thought it sinister? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant in that paragragh of your post?

CaliKid
09-22-2007, 04:47 AM
All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child, parents who left the kiddies alone, a white van, one dead man, one dead child, one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money.

Did I miss something somewhere? What reward/ransom money was collected?

Shazza
09-22-2007, 04:59 AM
Did I miss something somewhere? What reward/ransom money was collected?
Throught this case I have never heard of anyone collecting any reward/ransom money, there was mention of a couple who said they had information regarding Madelaine, but that turned out to be false.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 05:02 AM
Did I miss something somewhere? What reward/ransom money was collected?
". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

If some of you are commenting about this quote from a member post:
" . . . All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child, parents who left the kiddies alone, a white van, one dead man, one dead child, one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money. . . ."

OK let me explain as best I can.

If you have been reading the previous posts in this thread you know we have been discussing the connection between the mccann case and the kidnap, murder of another child and the subsequent suicide of the perp in that case.

AfterMidnight correct me where I get it wrong.

. . . All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child. . . That would be Madeleine I think.

. . . parents who left the kiddies alone . . That would be the mccann parents I think.

. . . a white van, . . . that would be either the white van the perp drove in the murder case of the little girl and/ or the white van which was seen parked near the mccanns apartment. The two vans could be one and the same according to news reports.

. . . one dead man. . . That would be Urs Hans von Aesch, the alleged murderer of the 5 year old little girl and who was alleged to have been vacationing where the mccanns were when Madeleine disappeared.

. . . one dead child, . . . I think would be Ylenia Lenhard whose body was discovered in switzerland.

. . . one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), . . . That would be the man shot and injured by von Aesch before he suicided. The injured man was last known to be in hospital recovering.

. . . and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money. . .
I already answered this part farther above in the post.

Remember this thread is about exploring the connection between the two cases.

Shazza
09-22-2007, 05:04 AM
". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

This reward money had nothing to do with Madelaines case as suggested in an earlier post, this case is doing everyones head in, just cant keep up with all the lies, innuendos etc.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 05:38 AM
I edited my post you might want to read it again.

Shazza
09-22-2007, 05:43 AM
I edited my post you might want to read it again.
Thanks docwho3, you have explained it well and I understand, you have to forgive me for jumping the gun, normally I dont need things spelt out to me, but with this case I find I need all the help I can get as there is so much information on this forum and most of it has not been proven as fact yet. I am finding it a little hard to keep up with all the goings on.

docwho3
09-22-2007, 06:23 AM
Thanks docwho3, you have explained it well and I understand, you have to forgive me for jumping the gun, normally I dont need things spelt out to me, but with this case I find I need all the help I can get as there is so much information on this forum and most of it has not been proven as fact yet. I am finding it a little hard to keep up with all the goings on. You are most welcome. I do not blame you for having your head spinning over this case. This case is a very messy one.

Shazza
09-22-2007, 06:54 AM
You are most welcome. I do not blame you for having your head spinning over this case. This case is a very messy one.
It sure is messy Doc.

If everyone who was there the night Madelaine disappeared all told the truth, the case would probably be over, Madelaine would either be back with her parents or put to rest as she should be. I wish it was that easy, but there are people who are not telling the truth and now everything is up in the air. Tell me if you thing that I am asking too much, I just cant believe the way this case is unfolding, call me naive, emotional or whatever, I just want the best for Madelaine whether it is a decent burial or the return to her parents or put in foster care or housed with relatives. Sounds so simple, but yet I cannot see this being solved in the near future.

Morag
09-22-2007, 11:05 AM
". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

The Madeleine fund is 100+ times larger than the sum gathered by advocates for little Ylenia. Mr. McCann said that the Madeleine fund was to continue searches after the police search ended. And the Madeleine fund is not a reward for finding Madeleine, it is a fund to look for Madeleine. So why is it virtually unspent? Why not charter a jet, fill it with some of the many who would love to help, put them up in a hotel and have them walk the grid in various places? Or turn the money over to PJ and have them get the Portuguese army (is there one?) involved. That little child is probably buried within a few miles of Praia da Luz, and no one is really looking for her anymore. Spend the money!

mjak
09-22-2007, 11:19 AM
[quote=AfterMidnight;1693659]
WHY would 2 intelligent parents leave the kiddies alone like that when there was no reason? It wasn't money, I don't believe. And, if they had felt they were being stalked, all the more reason not to. WHY did they? Did they want their children taken? Did they sell one of them? Were they stupid? Ignorant? Selfish? I don't believe any of the foregoing. I believe there was a REASON they did what they did, leaving them alone, knowing full well all of the consequences. The only scenerio that makes any sense to me is they were working in conjunction with the police or someone, in order to entrap a pedophile/pedophile ring, using their children as bait. The problem is, the "sting" went wrong and Madeleine disappeared when that wasn't supposed to happen.

quote]

Sorry but I think this theory is absolutly unbelievable. It is both morally and ethcially reprehensable that any law enforcement agency anywhere would use actually children in a sting like this. It is even more reprehensable that any parents would willingly alow there children to be a party to this. I just do not believe this would ever happen.

mjak

docwho3
09-23-2007, 05:23 AM
I know this comment is sort of my taking a little side moment but I wanted to say that post part is one of the better written bits of case summary/description/venting I have recently seen. (Even the word sarcasm came to mind but not in a bad way.) It took awhile for it to sink into my tired brain but later I found myself recalling that bit and nodding my head and even smiling a bit. In a case where there hasn't been all that much to smile about that bit, serious as it was, sort of hit the spot.

. . .I ask myself, what do we have here? One parent gets fed up, offs the kid, tells the spouse, then they scramble around to hide the body in a frig/ice chest/makeshift grave/whatever and scream abduction. Then they have friends who set up a fund and they sell posters and bracelets on behalf of their missing child. If they were guilty, surely they would see the idiocy in that? Maybe not. Some of my doctors aren't that bright either and I have to give them clues to the latest treatments. At any rate, 25 dqys later they rent a car and load the body in the boot? A wee bit small, eh? Now we "hear/read" about body fluids, hair, whatever the traffic will bear, and we are supposed to believe it. Maybe. Maybe they dug up the body in the dead of night, under cover of a cloudy night when the rest of the world was sleeping and transported the remains to the trunk of the car where the hair fell out, body fluids leaked and left clues up the wazoo. Maybe the body was in a suitcase which had been sitting somewhere for a while and placed innocently in the trunk and leaked all over, but the hair wouldn't have fallen out of the suitcase so that presents a wee problem.

They couldn't have chopped her up or they would have (would they?) found traces of blood in the bathtub, the usual chopping place. If they froze the body it wouldn't have fit in the suitcase, unless, ahah, it was a big one like I had. She was a small child after all.

Next step is - where do you dump the suitcase? One that big is bound to cause problems. Some imbecile is bound to find it and open it. For weeks there was a large duffle bag in a small wooded area on the exit ramp of a major highway I travel. I wouldn't go near the thing. This case warned me off of that. I could spend the rest of my life explaining why I was interest in that "particular" bag. No thanks.

Tomorrow is another day. Hopefully I will have more brain cells to work with. I think Colomom ought to get in here with her thoughts.

AfterMidnight
09-23-2007, 07:50 AM
Sorry but I think this theory is absolutly unbelievable. It is both morally and ethcially reprehensable that any law enforcement agency anywhere would use actually children in a sting like this. It is even more reprehensable that any parents would willingly alow there children to be a party to this. I just do not believe this would ever happen.

mjak


Is it less reprehensible for parents to kill their own child, hide the body, move the body, then possibly scatter body parts all over Europe?

colomom
09-23-2007, 10:23 AM
Morning folks....

I do want to contribute a bit to this discussion.

I have thought about this alot...alot,alot,alot. I have tried to examine it from every possible angle and tried to consider every scenario. And I keep coming back to a few basic things:

1. http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/homicide-rates-in-the-us-infanticide/

Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

31% were killed by fathers
29% were killed by mothers
23% were killed by male acquaintances
7% were killed by other relatives
3% were killed by strangers

Of course this is assuming that Madeleine has been killed, which I do believe she has been.

Kidnapping statistics are even stronger towards parental/someone known to the child involvement:

Justice Department statistics of kidnapped children in America also reports 24% of all kidnapping cases are "stranger-kidnappings", compared with 49% family kidnappings, and 27% acquaintance kidnappings.

2. After watching every video, looking at every picture, reading every article this "feels" right to me:

Gerry McCann suffers from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

and Kate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

3. Adolph Hitler said:

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_tell_a_big_enough_lie_and_tell_it/195660.html

4. Occam's razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

5. As much as it offends our senses (filicide is society's most aberrant act) and as much as we want to deny that parents could be responsible....it happens all the time.

Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates, Marilyn Lemak, Darlie Routier, Marco Barrera, Christian Longo, Charles Rothenberg, John Battaglia..the list is endless.

And here, in my backyard, yesterday....

3-Year-Old Stuffed In Bag, Dumped In Alley

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14180469/detail.html

While my gut tells me it was not premeditated murder, I think it may have been a little bitty girl on the receiving end of a temper tantrum.

6. I have wondered why, if the LE in PDL wanted to frame someone for this why they didn't just hang it on Robert Murat? If LE was being pressured by powerful people to allow the McCanns to skate that seems to me to be the most simple solution, right? Wrong, guess what would be a bit easier? Blame it on a dead man.... A dead man that had already kidnapped a small blond girl and who may have been in the area at the time and whose vehicle may have been spotted there and who buried his victim in a remote place and whose body would probably never had been discovered if not for wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger....very convenient.

Texana
09-23-2007, 10:36 AM
The recurrent thought I have is that Von Aesch may not have been involved at all in Madeleine's disappearance, but as a pedophile, he may have been inspired to copycat it.

AfterMidnight
09-23-2007, 12:15 PM
Morning folks....

I do want to contribute a bit to this discussion.

I have thought about this alot...alot,alot,alot. I have tried to examine it from every possible angle and tried to consider every scenario. And I keep coming back to a few basic things:

1. http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/homicide-rates-in-the-us-infanticide/

Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

31% were killed by fathers
29% were killed by mothers
23% were killed by male acquaintances
7% were killed by other relatives
3% were killed by strangers

Of course this is assuming that Madeleine has been killed, which I do believe she has been.

Kidnapping statistics are even stronger towards parental/someone known to the child involvement:

Justice Department statistics of kidnapped children in America also reports 24% of all kidnapping cases are "stranger-kidnappings", compared with 49% family kidnappings, and 27% acquaintance kidnappings.

2. After watching every video, looking at every picture, reading every article this "feels" right to me:

Gerry McCann suffers from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

and Kate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

3. Adolph Hitler said:

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_tell_a_big_enough_lie_and_tell_it/195660.html

4. Occam's razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

5. As much as it offends our senses (filicide is society's most aberrant act) and as much as we want to deny that parents could be responsible....it happens all the time.

Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates, Marilyn Lemak, Darlie Routier, Marco Barrera, Christian Longo, Charles Rothenberg, John Battaglia..the list is endless.

And here, in my backyard, yesterday....

3-Year-Old Stuffed In Bag, Dumped In Alley

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14180469/detail.html

While my gut tells me it was not premeditated murder, I think it may have been a little bitty girl on the receiving end of a temper tantrum.

6. I have wondered why, if the LE in PDL wanted to frame someone for this why they didn't just hang it on Robert Murat? If LE was being pressured by powerful people to allow the McCanns to skate that seems to me to be the most simple solution, right? Wrong, guess what would be a bit easier? Blame it on a dead man.... A dead man that had already kidnapped a small blond girl and who may have been in the area at the time and whose vehicle may have been spotted there and who buried his victim in a remote place and whose body would probably never had been discovered if not for wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger....very convenient.

GREAT POST, Colomom, thank you for taking the time to post it.

I have to agree your stats are right in line, and can go along with NPD for Gerry; Kate and Battered Woman Syndrome, I'm not sure of.

I also agree with statement ascribed to Hitler about telling a big enough lie. I know several people who follow that advice with great success.

I also agree Von Aesch is a convenient scapegoat. What got my rat-sniffer moving was the "wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger. . .". Yes, very convenient, too convenient.

On the other hand, I'm unable to get a handle on the logistics of the body's disappearance if, indeed, Maddie is dead. There doesn't *seem* to have been enough time and/or opportunity to commit the dead, and hide the body, let alone putting in a rental car (if they did) 25 days later which *supposedly* led to an evidence trail. This is the part that makes no sense to me.

WHERE was the body directly after Madeleine died?
HOW and when were the McCann's able to put the body or whatever in the trunk/boot of the rental car without being seen, IF, they did any of the above?

I can't say for sure the parents are innocent of Madeleine's death. I can't say for sure she was abducted, but I'm still leaning that way because it DOES happen and with more frequency now than ever before.

I do believe this case will not be solved because of the mistakes, omission and commission, made by Portueges LE early and perhaps still.

I like the way you put things together from known facts about statistics, mental illness, etc. I also like Sherlock Holmes and his *deductions* about things like certain mud only comes from certain places. I have seen real cases turned around by evidence such as that.

"There are stranger things in this world than in all your philosophies, Horatio"

mjak
09-23-2007, 01:19 PM
Is it less reprehensible for parents to kill their own child, hide the body, move the body, then possibly scatter body parts all over Europe?

No, but I can see how a parent could accidently kill there child and get caught up in lie after lie covering it up. It is totally reprehensible but it is circumstance I can horrifcly see happening. I can not see any LE angency willfully endangering young children like that.

mjak

Edited: To add the fact I admittingly am nieve and too idealistic about the world so I accept I maybe unable to see your theroy due to that.

philamena
09-23-2007, 01:45 PM
Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/)

IrishMist
09-23-2007, 01:51 PM
Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/)

A grim but accurate reminder that it is not ALWAYS the parent(s). Thanks for finding and posting this, Philamena.

philamena
09-23-2007, 02:00 PM
You're welcome IrishMist.
In order for Maddie's case to be discussed fairly, I personally think all points of view should be considered. ;)
The most important fact we should keep in mind, imo, is the number of precious children who are murdered each year.:(:(

AfterMidnight
09-23-2007, 02:12 PM
You're welcome IrishMist.
In order for Maddie's case to be discussed fairly, I personally think all points of view should be considered. ;)
The most important fact we should keep in mind, imo, is the number of precious children who are murdered each year.:(:(

I agree with that! I also think people of good heart, who really want the truth, are trying to see each other's point of view a bit more - at least I hope so.

colomom
09-23-2007, 02:16 PM
Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/)

From that same site (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/ojstatbb/victims/qa02111.asp?qaDate=2003):

Child Maltreatment

Q: Who are the perpetrators of child maltreatment?

A: The vast majority of perpetrators were parents (80%), including birth parents, adoptive parents, and stepparents.

Percent of perpetrators by relationship to victim, 2003

Perpetrator-victim relationship-Percent
Parents 79.7%
Other relative 6.4%
Other caregivers 4.2%
Unmarried partner of parent 4.0%
Child daycare provider 0.8%
Foster parent 0.5%
Friends/neighbor 0.2%
Residential facility staff 0.2%
Legal guardian 0.2%
Other professionals 0.1%
Unknown/missing 3.8%

Notes: This table is based on sample data reported by a varying number of states.

From: http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-mcstatistics.htm

According the FBI’s National Crime Information Center (NCIC)

85% to 90% of the 876,213 persons reported missing to America’s law enforcement agencies in 2000 were juveniles (persons under 18 years of age). That means that 2,100 times per day parents or primary care givers felt the disappearance was serious enough to call law enforcement.
152,265 of the persons reported missing in 2000 were categorized as either endangered or involuntary.

17%

philamena
09-23-2007, 02:24 PM
That number differs with the one you posted this morning does it not?
It's plain to see that the majority of child murders are committed by family members..... BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. :banghead:

You don't like anyone that doesn't agree with you replying to your post do you? I'm not going to argue with you about this case. So go ahead and alert the mods. But as long as I'm allowed to post on this forum, I WILL post opinion and the opposing facts!

docwho3
09-23-2007, 02:49 PM
This is all interesting but how does that help us explore the connection between Urs Von Aesch and the Madeleine case?

How do stats on kidnappings vs parental involvement say whether or not the two cases are connected? We know that most of the time its parents when a child goes missing but in this thread we are discussing the alleged connections between two specific cases.

Does anyone know if the white van with spanish plates in the Madeleine case was or was not the same van as the one used by Urs Von Aesch.

Does anyone know what if any other vehicle he may have been driving when he was in the algarve on vacation during the time Madeleine was disappeared?

Does anyone know who his alleged partner was? and where that partner went?

colomom
09-23-2007, 02:54 PM
That number differs with the one you posted this morning does it not?
It's plain to see that the majority of child murders are committed by family members..... BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. :banghead:

You don't like anyone that doesn't agree with you replying to your post do you? I'm not going to argue with you about this case. So go ahead and alert the mods. But as long as I'm allowed to post on this forum, I WILL post opinion and the opposing facts!

First thing, I think you will find that in the VAST MAJORITY of the time I do not respond, one way or the other, to responses to my posts. As much as I post there is no way that I would have time.

Please note the differences between "child maltreatment", "murders", "missing" and "kidnapping" in the statistics above. I never said that all murders where committed by family members, I just quoted the 60% VS 3% statistic as an explanation for my position regarding this case.

I also thought it important to expand that statistic that you mention: "A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day" as I believe that it is a misleading statistic without the additional number of 152,265 reports, which were actually considered endangered or involuntary, which is only 17% of the total number reported. To me, that is a HUGE difference.

I am very sorry if you felt like I was "arguing" with you, I was not. I also appreciate the opportunity to respond to any post with my opinion. I am sure you will find that I rarely attack the poster, just the post if I do not agree with it or if I feel it to be misleading or incorrect.

So please continue to post anything you would like and I will continue to post a rebuttal if I see fit.

colomom
09-23-2007, 03:03 PM
This is all interesting but how does that help us explore the connection between Urs Von Aesch and the Madeleine case?

How do stats on kidnappings vs parental involvement say whether or not the two cases are connected? We know that most of the time its parents when a child goes missing but in this thread we are discussing the alleged connections between two specific cases.
~snip~


Doc,

I was responding to this post (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1693693&postcount=36) as requested. My #6 fit in with the topic of this thread. The statistics I quoted were called into question so I responded.

The statistics are definitely important with regards to this thread as they offer probabilities with regards to stranger abductions which is the topic.

Please, excuse if your post was not directed to me, you did not specify.

docwho3
09-23-2007, 03:19 PM
Doc,

I was responding to this post (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1693693&postcount=36) as requested. My #6 fit in with the topic of this thread. The statistics I quoted were called into question so I responded.

The statistics are definitely important with regards to this thread as they offer probabilities with regards to stranger abductions which is the topic.

Please, excuse if your post was not directed to me, you did not specify.
I really appreciate your ability to find news links about this case so please don't take this as an attack on you (or anyone) but : The thread topic as created by a mod, christine, is titled "Urs Von Aesch/Ylenia Llenard Connection?" and thats a copy-N-paste. It does not ask the question whether strangers ever abduct shildren or how often that happens.

I know there is much contention between members over this case as it concerns whether or not the parents did the crime but there is a general thread for general discussions and also a thread for the case against the parents directly. I would be happy to even start a thread for discussion about how often a childs disappearance is caused by parents vs. a stranger abduction. I am a bit squeamish about saying someone can't post about something in a thread but I would hope we can all recognize that the threads are divided into topics to make discussion of a topic easier and that dragging side issues into a separate thread which is not about that specific issue can side track the discussion and if arguing about that side track point gets out of control it can make discussion of the original thread topic impossible for those who may want to stick to that topic.

colomom
09-23-2007, 03:35 PM
I really appreciate your ability to find news links about this case so please don't take this as an attack on you (or anyone) but : The thread topic as created by a mod, christine, is titled "Urs Von Aesch/Ylenia Llenard Connection?" and thats a copy-N-paste. It does not ask the question whether strangers ever abduct shildren or how often that happens.

I know there is much contention between members over this case as it concerns whether or not the parents did the crime but there is a general thread for general discussions and also a thread for the case against the parents directly. I would be happy to even start a thread for discussion about how often a childs disappearance is caused by parents vs. a stranger abduction. I am a bit squeamish about saying someone can't post about something in a thread but I would hope we can all recognize that the threads are divided into topics to make discussion of a topic easier and that dragging side issues into a separate thread which is not about that specific issue can side track the discussion and if arguing about that side track point gets out of control it can make discussion of the original thread topic impossible for those who may want to stick to that topic.

....color me gone....

christine2448
09-23-2007, 09:44 PM
I hate to move/delete all of this fantastic research, looks like everyone has made their points, HOWEVER I agree w/docwho3.

Listen up peeps, there is plenty of room for stats of missing, why the parents are responsible, what the parents did or didn't do on the other gazillion threads on this forum for Maddie.

Let's leave this thread for discussing Urs Von Aesch and Ylenia Llenard Connection.

You all have gone way off topic for THIS thread.

Let's get back on topic, k?

:blowkiss:

Texana
09-23-2007, 10:08 PM
Ahem, that leaves me repeating my thought, which is that Von Aesch could very well have had inspiration from the reported Madeleine McCann abduction--and done a copycat crime on his own.

There's no evidence he's linked to any other missing children or abductions, which would have surfaced by now if that were so. (check out some of the boards here for how quickly the amateurs come up with connections--let alone the pros.)

There's no evidence he was actually near the McCanns at all, other than a white van. (unfortunately, that's a pretty common vehicle in any country.)

Between the reward and the publicity, any copycat abductor might well have been inspired to copy Madeleine's presumed abduction.

Shazza
09-23-2007, 11:06 PM
Ahem, that leaves me repeating my thought, which is that Von Aesch could very well have had inspiration from the reported Madeleine McCann abduction--and done a copycat crime on his own.

There's no evidence he's linked to any other missing children or abductions, which would have surfaced by now if that were so. (check out some of the boards here for how quickly the amateurs come up with connections--let alone the pros.)

There's no evidence he was actually near the McCanns at all, other than a white van. (unfortunately, that's a pretty common vehicle in any country.)

Between the reward and the publicity, any copycat abductor might well have been inspired to copy Madeleine's presumed abduction.
Just a small thought on the van, could it have been a media van, they tend to hang around watching everymove people make when they are involved in a crime such as this.:twocents:

docwho3
09-23-2007, 11:15 PM
Just a small thought on the van, could it have been a media van, they tend to hang around watching everymove people make when they are involved in a crime such as this.:twocents: The van was seen before the disappearance not after. Why would media be researching a crime that had not been commited yet? (Sorry, that was not meant in a mean way.)

docwho3
09-23-2007, 11:38 PM
Before I proceed: Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I hope you continue to do so.

. . .There's no evidence he's linked to any other missing children or abductions, which would have surfaced by now if that were so. . . . ". . .Von Aesch had a criminal record and was sentenced to 15 months in jail in 1961 after trying to extort ten thousand Swiss francs from a businessman in Zurich by threatening to kidnap his young son. He has sent him a letter saying "...how terrible must it be, to live through the day not knowing if your dear Geni will return from day care..." (translated) . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

News reports also say he is being investigated for some missing children from the 1980's so I consider that evidence that it is a real possibility. And he has been already diagnosed as an infantile pedo if I remember the news article correctly. I believe this was from a previous case so I think there is actually evidence he was not performing a single never-before-done crime.

. . .There's no evidence he was actually near the McCanns at all, other than a white van. . . . The news article says that police have determined he was there and I think one article I read said he was seen. (I will look for the link but I believe it was from links already available in this thread.) The white van near the mccanns apartment was never confirmed in the news article to have been the one belonging to Urs Von Aesch so I was never basing the connection solely on that one item.

. . .Between the reward and the publicity, any copycat abductor might well have been inspired to copy Madeleine's presumed abduction. I agree and sadly it may happen again.

Now while I am on the subject of Urs Von Aesch:

I am concerned that he may indeed not have done the crime even if he was there and probably was watching Madeleine and her family's habits. What concerns me is that if he indeed did the 1980's crimes he had a certain cooling off period between kills and that time seems to have been longer than the time between Madeleine's disappearance and the switzerland crime. There are reasons that he may have changed the cooling off time or varied the timing and some of those reasons have been pointed out to me but it concerns me anyway.
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Source links for most of the above comments:
". . .Von Aesch had a criminal record and was sentenced to 15 months in jail in 1961 after trying to extort ten thousand Swiss francs from a businessman in Zurich by threatening to kidnap his young son. He has sent him a letter saying "...how terrible must it be, to live through the day not knowing if your dear Geni will return from day care..." (translated) . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch
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". . . The case has been investigated for links to the murder of several other young people in the 1980s. . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc
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" . . .Police in Portugal were alerted after it was revealed that Von Aesch had been on holiday near the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine, four, was kidnapped.
Detectives in Switzerland believe that the critically injured man – who is aged 46 – has vital evidence over the abductions and was about to blow the whistle. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert
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". . .Portuguese police were alerted via Interpol to the potential link between Von Aesch and Madeleine. . . ."

" . . . Swiss police informed colleagues in Spain and Portugal after learning that Von Aesch lived near Alicante and was on holiday in the Algarve at the beginning of May.. . ."

". . . The pretty blonde-haired Swiss girl is of similar height, build and age to Madeleine.. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert

Shazza
09-24-2007, 12:42 AM
The van was seen before the disappearance not after. Why would media be researching a crime that had not been commited yet? (Sorry, that was not meant in a mean way.)
Thanks Doc, I didnt take it in a mean way, no worries here mate.:)

Texana
09-24-2007, 01:05 PM
Thanks, Doc, for that info.

There's a lot there to chew on and think about.