NY NY - Girl Scout murders of 3 children (7, 8, 9 years old), 1977 [Archive]

WasBlind

03-29-2004, 12:56 PM

Bumping so we don't forget these children.

LP Moderator

04-06-2004, 02:54 PM

Darlin, is there a link or somewhere we can read about this case??

Ghostwheel

04-07-2004, 01:41 AM

Here are some:
http://www.osbi.state.ok.us/History/GirlScoutMurders.htm

http://www.geocities.com/welkerlots/scouts.htm

http://www.ardmoreite.com/stories/060997/news/news08.html

LP Moderator

04-07-2004, 01:40 PM

Thank you Ghostwheel. I'll check 'em out!

Scrappinmama

05-28-2004, 05:42 PM

This story not only scared me, but just broke my heart.

reneevalenti

06-16-2004, 05:21 PM

when this happened i was scheduled to go to girl scout camp here in michigan and went but scared to death anything new and what happened to the camp and families

WasBlind

06-16-2004, 06:38 PM

reneevalenti, I did not start the initial thread on this case....someone else did. Back then, threads expired after 30 days if not bumped, and I bumped the thread. I know absolutely nothing about this case.

I network missing, lost and abducted persons cases.
Please join us in the missing forum sometime
http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16

To see who actually started any thread, whether their posts are gone or not, simply look under the thread title, in this case it was blueclouds.

With love and HOPE, Lanie
Help For The Missing

blueclouds

06-16-2004, 10:42 PM

reneevalenti, I did not start the initial thread on this case....someone else did. Back then, threads expired after 30 days if not bumped, and I bumped the thread. I know absolutely nothing about this case.

I network missing, lost and abducted persons cases.
Please join us in the missing forum sometime
http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16

To see who actually started any thread, whether their posts are gone or not, simply look under the thread title, in this case it was blueclouds.

With love and HOPE, Lanie
Help For The Missing

Hi, that's ME.

Here's a link I had to pull up from an archive. Hopefully link works.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001101214922/http://www.nydailynews.com/1998-11-30/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-12295.asp

This is incredibly sad and for the most "UNSOLVED". I think they got the right guy... but my understanding on an article last year is that the "official" testing of DNA is still backlogged regarding this case.

Thanks for bumping this.

sharon25

05-08-2005, 02:20 PM

I searched for any new info on this and wasn't able to find any.
anyone else know anything about the DNA testing?
It also seems that it would be difficult to rape and murder 3 girls at the same time alone. doesn't it?

reneevalenti

11-12-2005, 08:33 PM

I think it is still closed. But is it grown over or buildings torn down? How are the families doing?

Richard

11-13-2005, 05:58 PM

This story is 7 years old now, and the crime was committed over 28 years ago. Although the main suspect was acquitted of the murders, it would be interesting to see what DNA says about it today. It is possible he might, in fact, have committed the crimes, but if not, then perhaps the real killer or killers might be found still.

----------------------------------------------------------------
From: New York Daily News OnLine; News and Views | Crime File |
Monday, November 30, 1998
Unsolved Mystery
By JOSEPH McNAMARA
Terry Tennant awoke in her tent. Although deep in sleep, she thought she had heard a scream. The 12-year-old awakened a friend, a pal girl scout on the first night of their planned two-week camping adventure. Both listened intently. They heard nothing like a scream. Both went back to sleep.

Elsewhere in the camp of 120 girls, another scout thought she heard screams. It had been a night of great excitement, as the girls chatted and giggled away the evening in the warm embrace of canvas. This scout now listened with hushed breath, but heard nothing. She also went back to sleep. It was 3 a.m. June 13, 1977.

But screams there might well have been, for at 6 a.m. a counselor going to wash found that three young girls had been torn from their tent and slain.

Michele Guse, 9, and Lori Lee Farmer, 8, had been beaten to death. Doris Milner, 10, had been beaten and strangled. All three had been raped. Two bodies lay in zipped sleeping bags. The third was on the open ground.

Fear raced through Camp Scott, about a mile outside sleepy Locust Grove in the northeast corner of Oklahoma. Mayes County Sheriff Glen Weaver was among the first of many investigators to reach the scene. He decided that the slayer had picked that particular tent because it was 50 feet from the others and near thick brush, which would have given the killer cover.

Also — and probers wondered if the killer might have known it — the fatal tent was among very few that did not have an adult counselor sleeping in it.

With the murder of the three girls, all from the Tulsa area 30 miles west, investigators descended on Locust Grove, a town of 1,019 people.

"I just don't think we have that many nuts in the area," the sheriff said. "It makes me pretty mad."

Hot on a Trail

Two days later, two tracking dogs were brought in from Pennsylvania to find the killer's path. Within a week, one died of heat prostration and the other was hit by a car. Others were brought in and led searchers to a small cave a mile from the murder scene.

Empty food cans indicated someone had lived there, if briefly. Also found: two tattered photographs of three women. The pictures, when spread across area newspapers, brought results in a day. The women were guests at the 1969 wedding of a prison worker's daughter.

Among those attending that wedding was a prison trusty named Gene Leroy Hart, who worked as a darkroom assistant at the prison.

"He's got to be our man," Weaver said.

At the time of the wedding Hart, 33, a Cherokee Indian, was serving a 10-year sentence for kidnapping two young women in Tulsa in 1966 and raping one of them.

He was paroled later in 1969 but was arrested within months on four counts of burglary. Convicted of the robberies, Hart was given 305 years — the second-largest term ever meted out in Tulsa. In 1973, during a transfer, Hart broke out of Weaver's jail in Pryor, Okla., and was still loose at the time of the three slayings.....

Links:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001101214922/
http://www.nydailynews.com/1998-11-30/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-12295.asp

smile22

11-15-2005, 10:50 AM

this story always struck close to home i was a girl scout and my sister is a girl scout i remeber going away to camp it was my first camping trip everyone else was staying overnite except me and another scouter we left at the end of the day. then i remember our leaders telling us about another camp which was farther away and it was a longer stay a few days i think to a week, i wanted to go but at the time i was still afraid to be away from home and never went. how said that a camping trip turned wrong. i hope that the murders can be solved didnt that guy who was in jail die of heart problems?

missacorah

01-02-2006, 04:57 PM

It reminded me a little of the Memphis 3 case which was equally heart breaking. Do you think there may have been more than 1 killer bearing in mind there were 3 victims?

Mullins

01-03-2006, 02:38 PM

Were any prints lifted from cans, etc, from the 2nd cave? If so, I wonder if they've been run through any databases recently?

sabego

05-24-2007, 05:33 PM

They have announced that they are doing new DNA testing this week in Oklahoma City. The results should be known by the end of this week!

I can't hardly wait to hear the results.

Stay tuned!

Sabego

Marie

05-24-2007, 09:40 PM

It'd be wonderful if this case were solved.

sabego

05-24-2007, 10:50 PM

Here is the link to the story in the Tulsa media.

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=128048

I have always felt that Gene Leroy Hart was guilty. I lived in Tulsa then and had two kids around the same age.

My husband's aunt and uncle had a cabin near the camp ground and it had been broken into and stuff stolen. They traced it back to Hart.

Sabego

raindrops300

02-01-2008, 12:16 AM

There is another thread on this in "Crimes in the News". Can they be merged here? Does anyone know how?

Last awaiting DNA results...anyone heard anything?

gaia227

02-01-2008, 12:59 PM

There is some very interesting discussions going on at A&E Cold Case forum. A man truly believes his brother committed the murders. Terry Lee Allen is his name and he apparently molested many little girls in his family. His brother claims that Allen lives right at the entrance of the girl scout camp and he takes visitors there often showing them the spot where the girls were found and laughs about it. Very Creepy. This guys whole family hates him and believe he is the murderer. They have contacted police but of course the police haven't done anything. Here is the link. I found the information from the brother 'Springcreek' around page 50.
http://boards.aetv.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100001959&start=735

Here is one of springcreek's posts regarding his brother. His niece also posts as well.

As everyone knows by now, that the last DNA test on GLH came back negative. So the killer is STILL out there. Has everyone forgotten that Terry Allen Martin took his nieces with their parents to the sight where the three girls were killed and actually showed them the spot and the exact tree that they were found by, and he would laugh as if it were nothing. Take it from me, he is a very sick person. Reports from his nieces have been turned in to the Mayes County Sheriff's office, stating in detail what he did to them. I read one of them and I cried all the way through it. How dare he do this to my nieces. He is an animal!!! Still nothing has been done to him. I want to see him behind bars. I can't understand why he hasn't been arrested. How many more children will he molest??? Once a child molester, is always a child molester. How can the law enforcement let him run free, when they know what kind of person he is. Who knows, maybe he had something to do with the Girl Scout Murders. I hear he's selling his propery that he stole from his mother and moving out of state. He may run, but he can't hide.

Ms Suzanne

02-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Hi
This is very sad.This case can be solved.It needs alot of publicity and to keep pushing this case.Put it everywhere and keep bumping it up.Has the DNA taken from the girls bodies been put into the DNA data base to check criminals DNA for a possible match or in families DNA CODIS.If not WHY?

suzanne

gaia227

02-01-2008, 02:38 PM

I know they collected DNA from the crime scene because they used it to test against Hart's DNA(came back inconclusive). I don't know if it has been put into CODIS or not.

Ms Suzanne

02-01-2008, 03:04 PM

quote
Camp director Barbara Day said she knew that the camp had received several threatening notes. The notes claimed that four little girls would be killed. Also, she said the camp had been burglarized several weeks before the camp opened, but she never considered the notes or the burglaries to be serious.

This is terrible.There were threats and they still let little girls go to camp?Did they check or can they check now for clues from the threats?Fingerprints ect...on the notes?Were the notes handwritten?was the hand writtig similar to any ones back then?Can some one check to see if they put this DNA into the DNA data base.If he killed like this before.He probably did it many times again?Were there any other similar killings through out the years?What more do they know of Jack Shroff's and his farm?

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/

Ms Suzanne

02-01-2008, 05:37 PM

Hi
I am reading alot on this story.I find it very interesting.I saw something in The Oklahoma Hero's:The Oklahoma Peace Officer's when I googled this. Was Doris Milner's father a police officer then?I wonder if that had to do with anything.I think they need to check the fingerprint found in the databases everywhere too.

suzanne

Shecky

10-29-2008, 12:27 AM

Bumping this case up. This is one of those cases that seems too horrible to be reality.

I spent my morning reading posts on this forum: http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/forums/63/t/General-Discussion.html

Lots of interesting thoughts and some pictures of the campsite there.

gaia227

10-29-2008, 11:19 AM

Yes it is pretty unbelievable with everything that went on that night the counselors were not starting to get suspicious. Numerous girls reported seeing a strange man lurking about, peeking in their tents, etc. How he raped and murdered three little girls with so many people around is bizarre.

I posted the link a few posts up in Feb to the Cold Case Files forum. There are family members who post there who really think on of their family members is responsible. He was a child molester, he lived near the sight, he was very interested in the case, he still lives by the sight and likes to take people there, etc, etc. It is pretty interesting. LE has DNA but won't listen to these people and just try to test this guy's DNA to see if there is a match.

Laura_Bean

10-29-2008, 01:06 PM

You would think, if someone was looking in the girls in their tents before this happened, he was someone the children trusted and knew. I would start there, with someone who the children knew and were fond of. How he could rape and murder three small girls with no one realizing it until morning is fairly simple, sadly. One, if they knew him and trusted him they wouldn't start screaming until he hurt them. Secondly, and this is even sadder, all he would have to do to shut them all up, would be to tell them if you scream I kill these two. If you scream I kill these two. And if you scream, I kill these two. So they stay quiet, until he kills the first and than he quickly kills the other two before they have much screaming time. Than he leaves. And probably the counselors believed some of the children just stayed up and were telling scary stories or something, and most children were with counselors in their tents so, they probably believe it's being handled by one of them.

ScreenName

11-12-2008, 02:24 AM

Just started reading about this case. I have heard about it when I was younger...even attended a girl scout camp in WI in 1986. (not sure how my mother could allow that!) Does anyone know where I can find some pics of the camp?

gaia227

11-12-2008, 11:11 AM

If you go to Google and type in girl scout murders camp scott and then set it to images you will see some pics.

There used to be a whole website devoted to the murders but it has been closed recently :(

mnegri1973

06-08-2009, 12:27 AM

This story haunts me. Doris, Michelle, and Lori are still remembered and hopefully one day there will be justice for these three girls.

M ~

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 05:33 PM

This sounds promising:
Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation forms new cold case unit to find DNA evidence

Especially with the progress of DNA testing bringing improvements which possibly could pinpoint the perpetrator, where the earlier (2007) tests failed to do so as the samples, at least then, were too old to yield results.

http://newsok.com/osbi-forms-new-cold-case-unit-to-find-dna-evidence/article/3420292?custom_click=lead_story_title

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 05:44 PM

Thank you for bumping this fascinating case. But didn't they arrest and jail some guy for this?

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 05:50 PM

Thank you for bumping this fascinating case. But didn't they arrest and jail some guy for this?

Gene Leroy Hart was found not guilty of the crime. It was thought by many at the time (including me) that, because of his Native American ancestry, he was being railroaded; the jury agreed. Then again, he had a violent past. To me, the decider is the note left in the empty doughnut box after someone had plundered the campsite not long before the killings (someone wrote that he [?] would return, and that three campers would die). It just didn't seem to be something Mr. Hart would have done, to leave a note telegraphing his intent.

This link might be posted somewhere above; it's a fairly good case synopsis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_Girl_Scout_Murders

believe09

11-27-2009, 06:53 PM

I don't know if it would be easy to control three little girls, unless you knew them or they were bludgeoned first, hence the scream(s). Seeing one struck would be enough to keep them quiet but would it make them stay still to be attacked? I think he had help or hit them into unconsiousness first...JMO. I think about this story periodically-I would think that the family member referenced by gaia would be easy to check-if there is any evidence from the crime they will put into the FBI database and run it-if the guy is a match, he will come up because he is likely in an offender database already right?

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 07:03 PM

I don't know if it would be easy to control three little girls, unless you knew them or they were bludgeoned first, hence the scream(s). Seeing one struck would be enough to keep them quiet but would it make them stay still to be attacked? I think he had help or hit them into unconsiousness first...JMO. I think about this story periodically-I would think that the family member referenced by gaia would be easy to check-if there is any evidence from the crime they will put into the FBI database and run it-if the guy is a match, he will come up because he is likely in an offender database already right?

Good point; I've always thought that at least two people were involved; therefore, the doughnut box note might have been left earlier by one of Hart's associates in the crime.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 07:16 PM

Maybe the note was a red herring

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 07:32 PM

Maybe the note was a red herring

A written vow to kill three campers, left at the camp less than two months before three campers were killed, seems to me to be a pledge both accurate and chilling.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 07:34 PM

Maybe I just don't get why you would put that in writing. What would your motive be and why kill 3 people? Random number. Was it publicized that the girl scouts would be at that camp? Do they still use that camp ground?

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 07:51 PM

Maybe I just don't get why you would put that in writing. What would your motive be and why kill 3 people? Random number. Was it publicized that the girl scouts would be at that camp? Do they still use that camp ground?

Good question. The note was discarded after it was found as it was thought to be a prank. Camp Scott was evacuated after the crime and never re-opened. It had been in operation as a Girl Scout camp since 1928.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 07:53 PM

Is that land used for anything now or is just vacant?

believe09

11-27-2009, 07:54 PM

Actually, the note said that 4 little girls would be killed IIRC. I just did a little reading and there were two pools of blood located next to where the campers beds were inside of the tent, so at least two were bludgeoned before being taken from the tent I would think. All had black electrical tape covering their mouths and all were bound. Two were taken in their sleeping bags and one was not, correct? One was uncovered and fully nude, two nude from the waist down but had been rezipped into their sleeping bags.

I read some of the posts from people who claim they were campers on the A&E website....one in particular stated she was in a tent across but some distance from the victims. She said they were supposed to sneak outside after lights out and go play with them, but she and her tent mates could not find their shoes, so they did not go. Originally I thought that this might have cleared up for me how the killer(s) grabbed the girls without making a big ruckus inside of the tent...figuring that a grown man or men would possibly knock the tent over or dislodge it while in the process of kidnapping/killing three innocents. But reading about the blood takes care of that theory for me....two must have been struck in the tent and taken out in their sleeping bags...so did the third walk out herself out of fear? I mean I am trying to picture how an adult or even two are going to carry three girls who are unconscious or injured??? Anyone one know the size of the tents? Perhaps one of the girls was outside of the tent already when she was attacked and the other two were then attacked?

The tent was in a terrible spot, the owners of the Camp took silly chances with the well being of the children, but I guess hindsight and all....

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 07:59 PM

According to the Wiki source (which lacks in-line citation and could be in error), "The author vowed to murder three campers. Because summer camps are rife with ghost stories, the note was treated as a prank and discarded." Again, from the same source: "The civil trial included discussion of the threatening note as well as the fact that tent #8 lay 86-yard (79 m) from the counselors' tent." (The two families who brought the case lost.)

I remember buying and reading the book about the case ("Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart") but it's been a long time ago---published in 1981. So my recall of details, without further fact checking, is, admittedly, way fuzzy.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 08:06 PM

I don't get how the families lost the civil case. Clearly the camp and the camp counselors were negligent.

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 08:17 PM

I don't get how the families lost the civil case. Clearly the camp and the camp counselors were negligent.

I remember being shocked at the time that decision came down. It was speculated that the jury bent over backwards not to penalize the Tulsa-based Girl Scout council which sponsored the camp.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 08:30 PM

They should be penalized. If that happened today, the parents would not have lost.

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 08:36 PM

They should be penalized. If that happened today, the parents would not have lost.

They'd have a much better chance, I think. But juries---and Oklahoma juries in particular, perhaps---are unpredictable bodies at best. I'm not sure what evidence was produced at the time; maybe the judge steered the decision in favor of the Scout council.

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 08:38 PM

But we are talking about children here. Most people would want justice done. The whole sitch was negligent from the start

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 08:45 PM

But we are talking about children here. Most people would want justice done. The whole sitch was negligent from the start

Oklahoma regularly used to rank in the bottom three in those "most corrupt officals per state" analyses one used to see. The fix might have been in. It happens. Around this same time, there was a massive bust of county commissioners in the eastern half of OK for things like influence-peddling, kickbacks, etc.

believe09

11-27-2009, 08:52 PM

According to the Wiki source (which lacks in-line citation and could be in error), "The author vowed to murder three campers. Because summer camps are rife with ghost stories, the note was treated as a prank and discarded." Again, from the same source: "The civil trial included discussion of the threatening note as well as the fact that tent #8 lay 86-yard (79 m) from the counselors' tent." (The two families who brought the case lost.)

I remember buying and reading the book about the case ("Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart") but it's been a long time ago---published in 1981. So my recall of details, without further fact checking, is, admittedly, way fuzzy.

Hmmm...conflict on the number in the note I think:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/o/ok/oklahoma_girl_scout_murders.htm says 3

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/ says 4

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/reply/2267/t/Just-wondering.html#reply-2267 says 4. This one has a copy/paste from some archives in the newspaper during the time just after the murder:
"Camp Director Barbara Day testified she heard that "several" months prior to the June 13 slayings, a threatening note had been found at the campsite by a scout participating in a weekend camp-out.

Mrs. Day said it was not until August that she learned of the note, which she was told read: "Four little girls will be killed."

She acknowledged on cross-examination that she actually never saw the note."

additionally:
"The mother of a sixteen year old girl scout stated in a telephone interview that her daughter had found the note in April of 1977 and gave the note to Mrs. Day.

"It's my understanding," said the mother, "that the note was thought to be a prank by one of the girls and that it was simply thrown away."

Wonder which it is???

scriptgirl

11-27-2009, 08:53 PM

But who was hushing up this murder and why, if that was the case?

believe09

11-27-2009, 09:00 PM

On the surface, I have a hard time believing the Hart connection simply because it is quite a switch to go from adult women to little girls, although he might have found them easier to victimize. It just seems like this crime was organized in a weird way-not impulsive....the murder was telegraphed in advance, the perps were selective (if even half of the stories of other scouts seeing men peeking in their tents was true), they brought all their materials and attempted to clean up the blood from the floor of the tent with sheets that they then stuffed into the sleeping bags??!!! The poor baby left by the tree was garotted...then they fled, but Hart left items he had stolen from the camp in his house???

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 09:02 PM

Hmmm...conflict on the number in the note I think:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/o/ok/oklahoma_girl_scout_murders.htm says 3

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/ says 4

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/reply/2267/t/Just-wondering.html#reply-2267 says 4. This one has a copy/paste from some archives in the newspaper during the time just after the murder:
"Camp Director Barbara Day testified she heard that "several" months prior to the June 13 slayings, a threatening note had been found at the campsite by a scout participating in a weekend camp-out.

Mrs. Day said it was not until August that she learned of the note, which she was told read: "Four little girls will be killed."

She acknowledged on cross-examination that she actually never saw the note."

additionally:
"The mother of a sixteen year old girl scout stated in a telephone interview that her daughter had found the note in April of 1977 and gave the note to Mrs. Day.

"It's my understanding," said the mother, "that the note was thought to be a prank by one of the girls and that it was simply thrown away."

Wonder which it is???

I'm trying to think back that far (ouch! my brain!), and four well may be the number. I was a bit startled when I read the Wiki account because I remembered the note, but didn't remember that a certain number had been predicted, just that the note referred to deaths to come. And it could well have been a prank, regardless of the number, I suppose. But that sort of coincidence I really have trouble accepting. Most of the details for the Wiki piece were, I think, taken directly from the main book on the subject, so the author may have had three, but it might have been more.

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 09:04 PM

But who was hushing up this murder and why, if that was the case?

It wasn't about the murders; it was about the money. But it's not unlikely that the status quo wanted to keep publicity down about the former in a "this is not good for the state of Oklahoma, to be known for this" type of manner, and thus squelched the bid of the parents for justice.

wfgodot

11-27-2009, 09:09 PM

On the surface, I have a hard time believing the Hart connection simply because it is quite a switch to go from adult women to little girls, although he might have found them easier to victimize. It just seems like this crime was organized in a weird way-not impulsive....the murder was telegraphed in advance, the perps were selective (if even half of the stories of other scouts seeing men peeking in their tents was true), they brought all their materials and attempted to clean up the blood from the floor of the tent with sheets that they then stuffed into the sleeping bags??!!! The poor baby left by the tree was garotted...then they fled, but Hart left items he had stolen from the camp in his house???

Good points all. Hart had, I think, raped two pregnant women---so perhaps in a weird, twisted way, he was violating babies all along, including the Scouts. At the time it happened, it all seemed, to me, way too convenient, though, to blame him.

The OSBI still maintains it was him; from their website: "The evidence against Hart was extensive. Tape used to bind the victims, along with other physical evidence tying Hart to the scene of the crime was located in a nearby cave. Items from the campsite were found in the house where Hart was captured. An analysis of physical evidence, including sperm samples and other body fluids, revealed that only .0020% of the population met the unique characteristics contained in that evidence-including Hart."

But I put little stock in state LE agencies in Oklahoma.

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/History/1970_Timeline/History_Girl_Scout_Murders.html

Sleuthster

11-27-2009, 10:32 PM

I remember this. I didnt remember the details but I was in girl scouts at the time and after this happened my father started going camping with us as a night watch person. He would sleep out by the fire in his sleeping bag. I think other fathers started doing this also in the area because the girl scout councel was really concerned about this not being random.

mnegri1973

11-28-2009, 02:31 AM

The question on how big the tents were, I can answer.....The tents were on raised platforms and could fit I believe 4 girls. There was enough room for the girls to stand completely upright in them. So from the pictures I have seen of the tents that were at the camp, an adult male/female would have been able to move around inside the tent with no fear of taking it down. I used to have the link saved however lost it when I crashed my system, but if you google about the murders and also include pictures or images in your search it should pull up a few sites that have pictures of the camp on that June morning, the actual tent, and of the girls. ETA: Not pictures of the girls on the morning that they were found but of when they were still alive. Just wanted to clarify that.

As for the OSBI having a new way of testing for DNA, that would be huge I would think because from the last that I have read they really did not have any good samples left to test. On top of that, they being LE released the girls belongings back to the parents after Hart was acquitted and if I recall IF the parents had not picked up the items they would have been thrown out. Yes, that one did boggle my mind. Throwing out evidence when the case was still open.

In my opinion, I do not believe that Hart if he did commit these murders, did not act alone. I would like to know more on the counselors that were working at the girls site. I just can't believe that they would hear and if I recall correctly lights in the trees, moving as if someone was wondering, did not do anything about it. Again, I am basing what I know off of info that was from locals and that was going around at the time, but I always wondered if it was not an inside job.

believe09

11-28-2009, 08:59 AM

I continued to read last night and learned much more, which most of you covered here including the size of the tent and the OSBI position. I read that 3 of the 4-5 samples processed for DNA by my favorite group at the University of Texas came back to Hart. The legal definition of this is "inconclusive." One DNA sample was clearly from one of the children in terms of a major contribution, so it was difficult to get the Male contributor DNA out of the mix. It is also clear there was more than one assailant because of the multiple shoe prints-Hart's shoe size was not reflected in the casts-so I would be willing to go for the possible 3 person assailant theory...

So I have to ask myself if one of the girls was targeted and the other two were, God forgive me, collateral damage? Hart was not in the tent, perhaps, the other two were killing the two children, then the three were taken out 100-150 yards away into the woods where the last innocent was attacked and killed...at least by two of the assailants? The only reason I think that is because she had two items around her neck...I read that the babies in the sleeping bags were tied in a fetal position. Were they SA as well?? I read stories that stated they were and stories that did not mention it.

wfgodot

11-28-2009, 09:39 AM

I thought I'd re-acquire "Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart" and further re-acquaint myself with the details of the case, but---ouch, prohibitive prices: Amazon and Alibris list many used copies, ranging in price from $29.99 to $99.99 for hardbacks, and paperbacks from $30 to about $80. The only new copy available: a paperback listing at an even $100.

Premium prices like that indicate that high levels of interest still exist for this case, 28 years after the book was published and 32 years after the tragedy at Camp Scott.

gaia227

11-30-2009, 03:59 PM

I am glad to see this thread active again. This case has always been one of my 'favorites' (for lack of a better word).

I think there had to have been more than one perp. It is amazing to have THREE little girls murdered in a campground and no one hears anything! It would be very hard for one man to control three little girls and keep them all quiet.

Here is a forum dedicated to the girls I have never seen before: http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/forums/63/t/General-Discussion.html

Here is the A&E Board which was posted earlier in the thread:
http://boards.aetv.com/topic/Have-Any-Cases/Girl-Scout-Murders/100001959

mnegri1973

12-02-2009, 01:43 AM

I am glad to see this thread active again. This case has always been one of my 'favorites' (for lack of a better word).

I think there had to have been more than one perp. It is amazing to have THREE little girls murdered in a campground and no one hears anything! It would be very hard for one man to control three little girls and keep them all quiet.

Here is a forum dedicated to the girls I have never seen before: http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/forums/63/t/General-Discussion.html

Here is the A&E Board which was posted earlier in the thread:
http://boards.aetv.com/topic/Have-Any-Cases/Girl-Scout-Murders/100001959

I stumbled upon the yuku site a couple of years ago!! It has a ton of info about the case and some really dedicated researchers. I recommend reading that site. :-)

Oriah

12-02-2009, 02:56 PM

I am just reading up on this case and have no valuable insight as of right now. But this case just brought me back to a camp situation I experienced (I am a volunteer counselor at a summer camp) from.... 1992 I think? Could have been '93. The children in my cabin were girls aged about 9-12.
My co-counselors and I came back from an all-camp evening activity one evening and found a note along with an audiotape, taped to the door of the cabin. It said something to the effect of a 'rising up' and that campers would kill or be killed by their counselors and there was a certain # mentioned. It was creepy enough that we immediately brought it to the camp directors- thinking prank- but also thinking no one in our camp group would play a prank like that. No one was ever hurt at our camp and we all eventually assumed it was perhaps simply a completely unfunny and inappropriate prank played by one of the actual camp 'workers' such as a kitchen or maintenance staff person.

Now I am wondering. This happened in CT though.

scriptgirl

12-02-2009, 04:25 PM

Are there any members on this board from that area? Does the law enforcement still seem reluctant to determine what really happened

gaia227

12-02-2009, 04:26 PM

I am just reading up on this case and have no valuable insight as of right now. But this case just brought me back to a camp situation I experienced (I am a volunteer counselor at a summer camp) from.... 1992 I think? Could have been '93. The children in my cabin were girls aged about 9-12.
My co-counselors and I came back from an all-camp evening activity one evening and found a note along with an audiotape, taped to the door of the cabin. It said something to the effect of a 'rising up' and that campers would kill or be killed by their counselors and there was a certain # mentioned. It was creepy enough that we immediately brought it to the camp directors- thinking prank- but also thinking no one in our camp group would play a prank like that. No one was ever hurt at our camp and we all eventually assumed it was perhaps simply a completely unfunny and inappropriate prank played by one of the actual camp 'workers' such as a kitchen or maintenance staff person.

Now I am wondering. This happened in CT though.

That is certainly creepy! How did you ever fall asleep for the next year? Did you guys turn it over to the police?

gaia227

12-02-2009, 04:35 PM

This post is on the topix board. Interesting.......

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/locust-grove-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18
I have called the OSBI, and nobody will listen. I was a boy scout in troup 17 at Camp Garland when those murders occured. We had the first camp site at Camp Garland and only 1/4 mile from Camp Scott. Those girls that were murdered were in the first camp site closest to camp Garland. The first night of camp we had three boys that bragged to the entire troup that they were going to go to Camp Scott that night to get some girls. They indead went, and in the middle of the night returned and woke up allot of us arguing. One boy was crying and saying he didn't want to get into trouble, the other two boys were angry and telling him to keep his mouth shut and they won't get in any trouble. The next morning the police arrived and took all the boys 14 years old and older into the camp site building for questioning. I was only 12. Myself and about 10 other boys told our scout master about the three boys and what they said and did, but he told us to shut up and let the police do thier job.

The Mays county detectives and OSBI found a "drunk Indian" to blame this on and they don't want to be embarressed. I've even called KRMG, and emailed channel 8 and nobody wants to look into this. I gaurantee, if someone adertised to have members of boy scout troup 17 come forward, you would get over a dozen that would remember those three boys and what they did.

Those three girls and thier families deserve justice!! I ended up going to
(http://www.topix.com/forum/city/locust-grove-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18#)with two of those boys and they were some of the roughest kids at Rogers High School, class of 83. I remember thier names.

scriptgirl

12-02-2009, 04:42 PM

Interesting, but I am not sure I buy it. I do believe the wrong man was blamed for the murders, though

wfgodot

12-02-2009, 04:46 PM

Are there any members on this board from that area? Does the law enforcement still seem reluctant to determine what really happened

I live in Oklahoma, about two hours from Locust Grove. Believe me, Oklahoma LE is clueless even when it comes to current, non-cold case, crimes.

scriptgirl

12-02-2009, 04:55 PM

Can the FBI be contacted? Do any of the surviving family members still live in the area?

wfgodot

12-02-2009, 05:11 PM

Unless improvements in DNA technology in the last two years allow a greater insight into the physical evidence (and OSBI has established a cold-case squad for just that purpose), I don't think this case will ever be solved, barring a deathbed confession.

Oriah

12-02-2009, 08:32 PM

No we never turned it over to the police- I don't think anyone knew and/or thought about this case at the time. It was, after all, summer camp. We truly just thought it was a wierd and odd prank (although we were truly very creeped out.) My co-counselors and I paid a LOT of attention to both the safety of our kids and the staff at the time... Does anyone know if that was something that was circulating around camps then (like a b-rated horror movie or something like that? )
Plus it was in CT...so that doesn't fit. But then again, creeps do seem to move around a lot.

shadowangel

12-02-2009, 08:45 PM

I thought I'd re-acquire "Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart" and further re-acquaint myself with the details of the case, but---ouch, prohibitive prices: Amazon and Alibris list many used copies, ranging in price from $29.99 to $99.99 for hardbacks, and paperbacks from $30 to about $80. The only new copy available: a paperback listing at an even $100.

Premium prices like that indicate that high levels of interest still exist for this case, 28 years after the book was published and 32 years after the tragedy at Camp Scott.

As an aside, Bookfinder.com is listing a copy for $7.94 (hardcover, good condition). There are signed copies of the book going for as high as $400.

wfgodot

12-02-2009, 08:55 PM

As an aside, Bookfinder.com is listing a copy for $7.94 (hardcover, good condition). There are signed copies of the book going for as high as $400.

Thanks for the tip! Just ordered it.

shadowangel

12-02-2009, 08:58 PM

Thanks for the tip! Just ordered it.

You're welcome. I'll waive my finder's fee this time. :angel:

wfgodot

12-02-2009, 09:01 PM

You're welcome. I'll waive my finder's fee this time. :angel:

That was either a new listing, or I need to clean my glasses more than once a fortnight.

shadowangel

12-02-2009, 09:13 PM

I love Bookfinder.com. It rarely lets me down.

mnegri1973

12-03-2009, 12:33 AM

This post is on the topix board. Interesting.......

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/locust-grove-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18
I have called the OSBI, and nobody will listen. I was a boy scout in troup 17 at Camp Garland when those murders occured. We had the first camp site at Camp Garland and only 1/4 mile from Camp Scott. Those girls that were murdered were in the first camp site closest to camp Garland. The first night of camp we had three boys that bragged to the entire troup that they were going to go to Camp Scott that night to get some girls. They indead went, and in the middle of the night returned and woke up allot of us arguing. One boy was crying and saying he didn't want to get into trouble, the other two boys were angry and telling him to keep his mouth shut and they won't get in any trouble. The next morning the police arrived and took all the boys 14 years old and older into the camp site building for questioning. I was only 12. Myself and about 10 other boys told our scout master about the three boys and what they said and did, but he told us to shut up and let the police do thier job.

The Mays county detectives and OSBI found a "drunk Indian" to blame this on and they don't want to be embarressed. I've even called KRMG, and emailed channel 8 and nobody wants to look into this. I gaurantee, if someone adertised to have members of boy scout troup 17 come forward, you would get over a dozen that would remember those three boys and what they did.

Those three girls and thier families deserve justice!! I ended up going to
(http://www.topix.com/forum/city/locust-grove-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18#)with two of those boys and they were some of the roughest kids at Rogers High School, class of 83. I remember thier names.

This was actually looked into and the troop that was being talked about by this "camper" was never at Camp Garland during the time frame that the murders took place. If I recall correctly that troop went to a different camp that year.

If you go to the yuke site that you linked earlier there is a thread there on the first page talking about the 3 boy scout's theory. It gives a bunch of good info in that thread. :-)

MaryLiz

12-03-2009, 09:13 AM

I was just reading through some of the websites online about this story. At the angelfire site below, it mentions the farmer who lived less than a mile from the camp, Jack Shroff. Why wasn't he looked at more closely? They found some evidence at his farm that matched the evidence found on the girls (black duct tape and rope) and also a match for the bloody footprint in the tent, but they totally ruled him out because he passed a polygraph? Lie detector tests are not reliable and I can't believe they so readily dismissed him from their suspect list because of that! Even if they cleared him because of the polygraph, that didn't mean that someone else on his farm couldn't have committed this crime, either a son or some other relative of his, or a farmhand who worked there.

From the angelfire site:

Three days after the brutal slayings, the hunt for evidence moved less than a mile west of Camp Scott to the 110 acre ranch of 58 year old Jack Shroff. The hunt moved because the bloodhounds lead the lawmen to his home and pond. Lawmen searched for a murder weapon and other possible evidence. During the search, officers found a roll of black duct tape and rope. The evidence matched the items found on the three little Girl Scouts ("Owener of Farm"). Several rocks, a tire tool, and a crowbar were discovered at the ranch, but the items were not connected with the slayings. Detectives found a footprint that matched the print in the death tent at Camp Scott. Mr. Shroff submitted to a lie detector test and passed (Allen - "Dogs").

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/

scriptgirl

12-03-2009, 11:20 AM

Interesting. Is this guy still alive?

MaryLiz

12-03-2009, 12:18 PM

When I Google him, his name just comes up in connection with the murders. I did find two articles on newspaperarchives.com from 1977 that said Shroff's house was broken into the same night of the murders, so maybe he didn't have anything to do with it. I copied the link from one of them below. I hope the link comes through okay; it's hard to copy those PDF files from the newspaperarchive site. I can't find evidence yet whether he is still alive. If he is, he would be around 80 this year. Evidently, Jack Shroff's main residence was in Tulsa and he only lived part-time on that farm.

The article is in about the center of the front page in the link below, and says "Lead Uncovered in Scout Probe." The article is continued on the next page, but it's just a short paragraph and really doesn't say anything relevant.

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/PdfViewerTags.aspx?img=59692651&firstvisit=true&src=search&currentResult=0&currentPage=0&fpo=False

believe09

12-03-2009, 01:43 PM

So let's ponder why a guy who lived just a mile from the crime scene would not only participate in this heinous set of murders, but also keep the evidence that he participated around on his property???

scriptgirl

12-03-2009, 01:46 PM

I am not one to give the benefit of the doubt, but it is possible that this buys’ farm was broken into and the killer(s) put the evidence there. Does that farm still exist?

MaryLiz

12-03-2009, 03:52 PM

So let's ponder why a guy who lived just a mile from the crime scene would not only participate in this heinous set of murders, but also keep the evidence that he participated around on his property???

After reading some more old newspaper articles about it, I guess he wouldn't. But when I first read about him, it was one of those WTH moments, more for the fact that they let him go on the weakness of a passed polygraph. That always surprises me because lie detector tests are reportedly so unreliable. I also didn't know his house was broken into the very same night as the murders until I started reading those old articles.

believe09

12-03-2009, 05:18 PM

After reading some more old newspaper articles about it, I guess he wouldn't. But when I first read about him, it was one of those WTH moments, more for the fact that they let him go on the weakness of a passed polygraph. That always surprises me because lie detector tests are reportedly so unreliable. I also didn't know his house was broken into the very same night as the murders until I started reading those old articles.

OH NO-I agree with you completely!!! I had to pull myself back for a moment because I thought you had completely nailed it to be honest....

mnegri1973

12-03-2009, 05:49 PM

The Shroff farm came under the scrutiny of the investigators when the tracking dogs followed the scent from Camp Scott to the farm. It was then that they found that the items from the murder scene matched items that were on the farm.

It was determined that Mr. Shroff was not even in the LG area on the night of the murders and he passed a poly as well. I personally think that the killer(s) broke into the farm and used it to suit their needs since it was known locally that Mr Shroff did not live there all the time.

wfgodot

12-04-2009, 08:53 PM

The Topix/McAlester link gaia227 references above (#63) has some other items of interest---the series of posts by Julie_A from last month (#72, 74-5) is quite interesting. The poster claims to have been the fourth girl assigned to the tent ("That was the tent I was assigned to, but I was pulled out at the last minute"), and also lists three other possible suspects by name. Julie_A believes Hart was involved but that others participated. The usual caveat for Topix info, but her posts make compelling reading.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mcalester-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18/p3

On the first page of that thread, Let The Truth Prevail (from 2007, #12) also names a name. Also of interest: lkk on page two (#27, from 2008), who claims to have at Camp Scott that night with her older sister.

mnegri1973

12-05-2009, 02:21 AM

The Topix/McAlester link gaia227 references above (#63) has some other items of interest---the series of posts by Julie_A from last month (#72, 74-5) is quite interesting. The poster claims to have been the fourth girl assigned to the tent ("That was the tent I was assigned to, but I was pulled out at the last minute"), and also lists three other possible suspects by name. Julie_A believes Hart was involved but that others participated. The usual caveat for Topix info, but her posts make compelling reading.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mcalester-ok/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18/p3

On the first page of that thread, Let The Truth Prevail (from 2007, #12) also names a name. Also of interest: lkk on page two (#27, from 2008), who claims to have at Camp Scott that night with her older sister.

I also believe that she posts under the name of Absynthe on the yuku GSM board. I will agree with ya that what she posts makes for good reading but some of it is just so over the top. If you read what she has posted on the other board you will see what I mean.

As for her suppose to being the 4th girl in tent #8, there is really no way of finding out. She is about the 4 or 5 person however that I have come across to make that claim.

It makes me wonder if there would be a way to get a release of all girls, counselors, and staff names of who was on the camp property that night and where they were assigned. I know that it would be a huge amount of work but just maybe the key to solving this case is hidden somewhere within WHO was at Camp Scott that night. Hope that makes sense.

Nyla4

12-06-2009, 11:01 PM

Does anyone know where I can watch the documentary on this case? I believe Johnny Cash narrated the film.

Laura_Bean

12-07-2009, 01:10 PM

Okay has anyone checked out the camp counselors? Some things just seem odd to me. First, someone heard one scream. And than quiet. Makes me thinks it was someone that the girls trusted who did it. He said, BE QUIET OR I WILL TELL YOUR MOTHERS YOU'VE BEEN BAD, or something of that nature. Also, it would make sense that a counselor would know which tent did or did not have a counselor inside of it. Also, the fact that someone decided to pitch these girl's tents BY THE BRUSH FOR COVER, etc. It just seems illogical that someone was watching the camp the whole time, and happened to get lucky that the tents furthest away from the other tents and the one closest to the brush were also the tents that DID NOT HAVE A COUNSELOR inside of them. Was there a MAN on the trip? A MAN who was helping to pitch the tents, etc?

Laura_Bean

12-07-2009, 01:31 PM

Also we should talk to these girl's families. A court order to have their remains dug up would be needed to check for DNA evidence left on the girls. By checking the DNA against each girl who was raped that night, we could find out if all three were raped by the same man or if there was more than one who did this.

Oriah

12-07-2009, 01:36 PM

Interesting question.
I went to Girl Scout camp in 1984 and 1985. Our counselors were all female; however there were other staff (such as sailing instructors, rock climbing instructors, etc) who were male. We had 'platform' tents, similar to what the military uses when they set up a site for an extended period but not building a permanent building. We did not have a counselor in our tent those years- the counselors had their own tent that was a little ways away. I believe that was the case for all of the different 'color' groups. We had, I believe (memory failing me here) 6 campers per cabin. IMO, thinking back...it would have been entirely possible for someone(s) to enter the cabin in the middle of the night under the pretense of a prank- many counselors played pranks on US- not just the other way around- and therefore have three small girls under their control very quickly.
IMHO.

Laura_Bean

12-07-2009, 01:47 PM

Another thing I just found this posted
http://boards.aetv.com/topic/Have-Any-Cases/Girl-Scout-Murders/100001959
On this board listen guys

Re: Girl Scout Murders Locust Grove 1977
Jan 1, 2009 11:00 PM Report Abuse
I was 7-1/2 years old in 1977, and a girl scout. Unfortunately I was too young to go to Camp Scott that year. My older sister, who was almost 11 was at the camp, when the tragedy happened.

I remember this very well. I had to stay with my older brothers girlfriend while he drove to Locust Grove to find out what was going on, of course he was denied information. The parents of the all the girls were waiting on the busses to return to Tulsa (where I was from at the time) and the magic empire refused to tell the scouts parents' which children were killed. I thought this to be terribly traumatic just waiting, hoping and praying to see your daughter get off the bus.

In July 1977 we moved to Locust Grove within oh 4 miles of the camp where the tragedy occured. It was very hard for my sister, as I recall. She told me, she was in the tent across from where the girls that were murdered stayed. She remembered talking to them and were goin to go outside and play after dark (which wasn't allowed) but those in my sisters tent couldn't find their shoes. I believe this is a miracle or their could easily have been more vitcims. She said she never heard anything during the night. The next morning all they were told to go swimming while they waited for the busses to return them to Tulsa. They were unaware of what had happened till after they returned.

I grew up and graduated Locust Grove highschool in 1987 and lived in NE Oklahoma all of my life. This has affected my life and enhanced the belief that justice is overrated and ususally the sentence doesn't fit the crime and if it does the parole system gives them the opportunity to commit again.

I so prayed when they retested the evidence something would have come out of that, but alas the hopes of all of us in Mayes County who remember this were very disappointed. Feel free to contact me.

It had to be someone in the camp. These girls couldn't find their shoes to go outside after dark. Someone had to be thinking about this. Hide their shoes so no one comes out while the men are doing what they are doing. It may not have been a blessing after all. I think it is a huge coincidence that these girls were going to go out and play after dark and suddenly their shoes are gone so they don't go. Someone I think planned this VERY CAREFULLY.

Stella

12-07-2009, 10:31 PM

Were the counselors, male and female not vetted before being hired? Were there no references and background checks done, to weed out the perverts,etc. Surely LE did this once the crime had been committed? LauraBean, I have relatives in neighboring Cherokee County; mighty pretty country up there in NE Oklahoma.

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 12:57 AM

In 1977? I doubt much if any background checks were done. As for the police, it sounds like they decided this escaped convict was the killer, and just went with it. People liked things easily solved back than, no offense, but it's true. Someone had to pay, convict went missing not long before it happened, and because he was native american welp he must have been hiding in the woods cause he could so... Easy case. Done, solved. And when he got off because the jury said there wasn't enough evidence, the police were off the hook by than. Now it's the jury's fault this bad man went free, right?

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 01:07 AM

I mean do you really believe this was all a big series of coincidences? let's look at them all stella and I mean it would have to be just the strangest set of coincidences to happen the way it did.

The troop leader's daughter is supposed to be sleeping in the tent with the girls who were murdered but that day she gets pulled out and put in another tent. Strange coincidence. So she is spared death and being raped just for no other reason than someone decided to move her?

Than, the girls in the tent with the daughter of the troop leader make plans with the girls from the death tent, (let's just call it that for now), and when the time comes to leave their shoes are mysteriously missing. Another real oddity.

The death tent just happens to be set up furthur away from the other tents and right by some brush so the murderer has easy access to the girls? I mean that's just downright strange, and a little TOO coincidental when added with the other things, don't you think?

And THAN, someone decides the girls in the death tent, who are closest to the brush and farthest away from the other tents, DON'T need a scout leader to be with those girls... Okay, can we say this is getting just way too crazy for words? How can all of these things happen on the same evening?

The scream. One scream is heard. There are three girls in the tent, and only one brief scream, short and small enough that no one thinks twice about it? How could someone handle three girls and only one scream from all of them?

So your telling me someone just decided to put those three girls alone in a tent next to lots of brush without a counselor and to move the leader's daughter out of the tent, and than the three girls from the other tent misplaced their shoes, ALL of them misplaced their shoes, and the other two girls were asleep and didn't wake up when they were raped and murdered but one happened to be awake and screamed and somehow did not awaken her friends thus only one small scream? It just seems too freaky.

On a side note, in the boys camp which was not that far away, a man is now claiming he awakened in the middle of the night to three campers arguing and yelling and one begging the others not to tell cause he did not want to get in trouble. Is that another coincidence?

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 09:42 PM

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/images/Girl_Scout.jpg

http://www.associatedcontent.com/image/109307/index.html?cat=37

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 09:43 PM

An actual photo of the tent the girls were in when they were killed got it off a police station website

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 09:47 PM

http://www.findmissingkids.com/2006memorials/DorisMilner.gif

Doris Milner

http://www.findmissingkids.com/2006memorials/MicheleGuse.gif

Michelle Guse

http://www.findmissingkids.com/2006memorials/LoriFarmer.gif

Lori Lee Farmer

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 09:47 PM

http://www.findmissingkids.com/2006m...LoriFarmer.gif

Let's try that again - This is Lori Lee Farmer

Laura_Bean

12-08-2009, 09:56 PM

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/15776/user/315207/452239.jpg&imgrefurl=http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php%3Fforumid%3D150570%26threadid%3D1627043&usg=__5Im0o-onkC26smspX0ZIAQoe0Xw=&h=184&w=245&sz=13&hl=en&start=20&itbs=1&tbnid=hsqMmXwLeigNcM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDoris%2BMilner%2Bgirl%2Bscout%26gbv%3 D2%26hl%3Den

An article I think may help has many details. Copied below or u can go to the website above.

Camp Scott, a 610 acre summer camp for Girl Scouts and Brownies, was located three miles southeast of Locust Grove, Oklahoma. It was the site of the brutal bludgeoning deaths of three little Girl Scouts on June 13, 1977.

Police arrested Gene LeRoy Hart, a Locust Grove native, and charged him with the murders of Lori Lee Farmer, Michelle Guse, and Doris Denise Milner.

Operated by the Magic Empire Council of Girl Scouts since 1928, Camp Scott was perfect for boating, hiking, fishing, and camping. Girl Scouts had come from the Tulsa metropolitan area to attend the summer camp.

Introduced as roommates on the first night of camp, Lori Lee Farmer, Michelle Guse, and Doris Denise Milner went to their tent, Kiowa tent # 8. Their tent was located at the outer edge of the wooded camp and isolated from the other tents. A last minute change left Tent # 8 one girl short.

As night fell upon the camp, counselors checked to make sure that the one hundred Girl Scouts were in their assigned tents. As counselors walked away from the Kiowa tents, they saw a dim light in the woods which then disappeared. The counselors thought the light in the woods was some sort of a prank and went to their tent.

At 2:00 a.m., counselors heard some Girl Scouts making noises and went to quieten the campers. Several Girl Scouts told them that a man looked into their tents and then walked away. Others said they heard someone outside their tent. Another Girl Scout heard a girl screaming "Momma! Momma!" at 2:00 a.m.

Also, girls said a man grabbed them as they walked toward the bathroom. One girl became hysterical in the woods when she thought she saw a man. The counselors told the Girl Scouts to go to sleep, and went back to their own tent. They didn't look around for the strange man that several of the Girl Scouts had told them about.

At 6:00 a.m. on Tuesday, June 13, Carla Sue Wilhite, a counselor at Camp Scott, went to take an early shower. She walked on the trail and noticed some things under a large tree. As she got closer, she noticed some sleeping bags. Then, she saw Doris Denise Milner's nude body (W & W 10). At that time, Carla couldn't see the other two dead bodies. The other bodies were still zipped up in their sleeping bags and naked from the waist down.

At 6:30 a.m., Mayes County District Attorney Sidney Wise said all three of the small victims had died from blunt trauma to the back of the head and strangulation. All of the girls had lengths of cord around their necks and had been gagged and bound with two-inch wide black electrical tape. All of the victims had been sexually molested. Officers found their clothes a few feet from their bodies. The killer or killers carried the bodies approximately one hundred to one hundred and fifty yards from their tent and piled the young victims under a large tree.

At the scene, detectives found a large roll of black duct tape and a red and white nine-volt flashlight near the bodies (W & W 19). The lens of the flashlight was partially covered to allow only a mere pencil of light through. Inside the death tent, detectives found the bloody footprint of waffle-type jungle boots. It appeared too large to be one of the victim's prints. Large pools of blood were found near the beds of two of the girls. The other girl could have been strangled to death after being pulled from the tent.

Shortly after the discovery of the bodies of the Girl Scouts, Governor David Boren ordered a task force of Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents and highway troopers to assist the Mayes County authorities in the investigation. Govenor Boren also arranged the use of three bloodhounds from Pennsylvania to help track down the killer or killers of the three little Girl Scouts.

Three days after the brutal slayings, the hunt for evidence moved less than a mile west of Camp Scott to the 110 acre ranch of 58 year old Jack Shroff. The hunt moved because the bloodhounds lead the lawmen to his home and pond. Lawmen searched for a murder weapon and other possible evidence. During the search, officers found a roll of black duct tape and rope. The evidence matched the items found on the three little Girl Scouts. Several rocks, a tire tool, and a crowbar were discovered at the ranch, but the items were not connected with the slayings. Detectives found a footprint that matched the print in the death tent at Camp Scott. Mr. Shroff submitted to a lie detector test and passed.

Camp director Barbara Day said she knew that the camp had received several threatening notes. The notes claimed that four little girls would be killed. Also, she said the camp had been burglarized several weeks before the camp opened, but she never considered the notes or the burglaries to be serious.

The task force polygraphed many suspects and all passed. Also, Ben Woodward, ranger and custodian at Camp Scott, was polygraphed. He passed.

On June 24, local, county, and sate lawmen launched a massive air and ground search. Although lawmen would not say how they linked their investigation to the prime suspect, they looked for a convicted rapist, Gene LeRoy Hart (Kelley). Mayes County authorities charged Hart with three separate counts of first degree murder in connection with the brutal slayings of Lori Lee Farmer, Michelle Guse, and Doris Denise Milner.

Gene LeRoy Hart was convicted on October 14, 1966, on two counts of first degree rape and kidnapping. On March 16, 1969, Hart was paroled from Granite State Penitentiary. He was sent to McAlester State Penitentiary where he would serve forty to one hundred and forty years on a charge of rape, two counts of kidnapping, and two counts of burglary.

In 1973, Gene LeRoy Hart and two other prisoners hacksawed their way out of the Mayes County Jail. Lawmen found the other two prisoners, but Hart, a Locust Grove native, had remained free since the jail break. Even though he was a convicted rapist, no one looked for him. While at the Mayes County Jail, Hart had been awaiting a postconviction hearing.

On June 24, 1977, Locust Grove natives spotted a man who resembled Hart running from a cave near where the three Girl Scouts had been slain. He was supposedly armed with a 20-gauge shotgun and a .22 caliber rifle. He had supposedly stolen these guns from Jack Shroff's farm.

At the cave, local, county, and state lawmen searched for Gene LeRoy Hart. The lawmen searching in the wooded area had thousands of ticks crawling on them. When they got inside the cave, lawmen found no ticks. The lawmen's theory was that Hart had used Indian medicine to ward them off.

On a cave wall, lawmen found a written message. It said that the person who killed the Girl Scouts had been living in the cave since the murders. The person who wrote the message called the lawmen fools.

Oriah

12-09-2009, 09:26 AM

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/images/Girl_Scout.jpg

http://www.associatedcontent.com/image/109307/index.html?cat=37

This is EXACTLY the way I recall our girl scout camp tents in 1983/84/85.
The way I was trying to describe as platform tents of the military-type when they are not set up for an extended period of time, but not a short period of time either. The platforms remain- the canvas can go up or down.

Thank you, Laura Bean- although now I have the chills.

Oriah

12-09-2009, 09:33 AM

Question for anyone who may have this information (and apologies in advance for it's horrific factor):

Do we know whether or not these children were sexually assaulted before or after death? From all of the articles I have read it would appear that possibly two were sexually assaulted after death, and one while alive. Or perhaps all after death. IMHO- major info and indicator of the type of person(s) who committed this heinous crime. :waitasec:

Oriah

12-09-2009, 09:37 AM

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this question- newbie here, not sure on this type of stuff- but I believe the girls were 8, 9, and 10 years old. Not 7, 8 and 9 years old.. Is this correct? If so- is there a way to correct that in the thread title?

believe09

12-09-2009, 09:43 AM

I continued to read last night and learned much more, which most of you covered here including the size of the tent and the OSBI position. I read that 3 of the 4-5 samples processed for DNA by my favorite group at the University of Texas came back to Hart. The legal definition of this is "inconclusive." One DNA sample was clearly from one of the children in terms of a major contribution, so it was difficult to get the Male contributor DNA out of the mix. It is also clear there was more than one assailant because of the multiple shoe prints-Hart's shoe size was not reflected in the casts-so I would be willing to go for the possible 3 person assailant theory...

So I have to ask myself if one of the girls was targeted and the other two were, God forgive me, collateral damage? Hart was not in the tent, perhaps, the other two were killing the two children, then the three were taken out 100-150 yards away into the woods where the last innocent was attacked and killed...at least by two of the assailants? The only reason I think that is because she had two items around her neck...I read that the babies in the sleeping bags were tied in a fetal position. Were they SA as well?? I read stories that stated they were and stories that did not mention it.

Bumping my own post about the Hart DNA connection. Here is the link which I did not include in the original post:
http://campscottmurders.bravejournal.com/
snip
According to reports concerning the 1989 testing, three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did.

But since only three of the five samples matched, the results were deemed inconclusive.
snip

The additional testing done in 2007 completely consumed some of the specimens....the results on the samples were inconclusive because the samples were quite degraded....they could only get fragmented epthelial cells.

So, clearly the evidence indicates some level of participation by Hart. I do not believe he was the mastermind or the sole participant. I think there were two others as well. JMO.

Oriah

12-09-2009, 07:33 PM

Bumping my own post about the Hart DNA connection. Here is the link which I did not include in the original post:
http://campscottmurders.bravejournal.com/
snip
According to reports concerning the 1989 testing, three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did.

But since only three of the five samples matched, the results were deemed inconclusive.
snip

The additional testing done in 2007 completely consumed some of the specimens....the results on the samples were inconclusive because the samples were quite degraded....they could only get fragmented epthelial cells.

So, clearly the evidence indicates some level of participation by Hart. I do not believe he was the mastermind or the sole participant. I think there were two others as well. JMO.

Thank you, believe09-
It would seem prudent also to remember that 'bodily fliuds' can mean quite a few different things. Some are more easily transfered that others- and if the one sample in particular was primarily from the one child...we can probably assume blood...? (But ya'll know what they say about 'assume' :) )

Is the autopsy report for these girls available somewhere I can find it online?

Laura_Bean

12-10-2009, 03:17 AM

Okay what I don't understand is back when this happened they weren't using actual DNA to identify subjects. So when they say that the bodily fluids matched this guy, how was that determined? I mean, what test did they do to match it?

Laura_Bean

12-10-2009, 03:18 AM

Oh I see never mind

Oriah

12-10-2009, 09:33 AM

Question for anyone who may have this information (and apologies in advance for it's horrific factor):

Do we know whether or not these children were sexually assaulted before or after death? From all of the articles I have read it would appear that possibly two were sexually assaulted after death, and one while alive. Or perhaps all after death. IMHO- major info and indicator of the type of person(s) who committed this heinous crime. :waitasec:

Bumping my own question here.... It appears the assumption is that the girls were raped prior to death? But that doesn't make sense to me considering the evidence of the way their deaths occured, and the manner in which they were found. I really would like to know this, just for the sake of behavioral analysis of the perp(s) as well as motive.
Thought on how to aquire this info, anyone?

Thanks.

wfgodot

12-10-2009, 09:39 AM

In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )

Oriah

12-10-2009, 10:33 AM

In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )

Thank you for this info. I am not Cherokee but am very familiar with the Trail of Tears, the abuse that ensued of Native Americans (in particular Cherokees) and feel I understand the prejudicial aspects of this case. Gayle Ross is an aquaintence of mine, if that makes sense.

IMO the 'testing' done both at the time and in 1989 is akin to a simple blood test determining blood type. So if your blood type is O+ and you fit the bill for being in the location at the time and are a prior felon- you're guilty. No acknowlegement of the fact that the percentage of the population at large with O+ blood is 38%.
IMHO- this proves nothing.

I believe GLH was framed. MOO. And I would like to find the real perpetrators of this terrible crime.

wfgodot

12-10-2009, 12:12 PM

Thank you for this info. I am not Cherokee but am very familiar with the Trail of Tears, the abuse that ensued of Native Americans (in particular Cherokees) and feel I understand the prejudicial aspects of this case. Gayle Ross is an aquaintence of mine, if that makes sense.

IMO the 'testing' done both at the time and in 1989 is akin to a simple blood test determining blood type. So if your blood type is O+ and you fit the bill for being in the location at the time and are a prior felon- you're guilty. No acknowlegement of the fact that the percentage of the population at large with O+ blood is 38%.
IMHO- this proves nothing.

I believe GLH was framed. MOO. And I would like to find the real perpetrators of this terrible crime.

Yes, Gayle Ross is descended from Chief John Ross, a.k.a. The Cherokee Moses, a.k.a. Guwisguwi. (I've never met Ms. Ross but have been honored to meet Chief Wilma Mankiller, who is from Tahlequah, the capital of Cherokee Nation. T-quah's a half-hour SE of Locust Grove.)

As for GLH being framed, it also must be noted that it is possible to frame a guilty man---essentially what happened, imo, in the case of O.J. Simpson. While both were acquitted, each may have been guilty.

(Another odd thing about the '89 tests: what are the chances of murders committed in 1977 being further tied, 20+ years later, to a man who allegedly fit the profile, a "one in 7700" chance? Yeah, right. The very language of that farce was tailored to establish Hart's guilt, by any means possible, in spite of the results at trial, forever.)

Oriah

12-10-2009, 02:02 PM

<As for GLH being framed, it also must be noted that it is possible to frame a guilty man---essentially what happened, imo, in the case of O.J. Simpson. While both were acquitted, each may have been guilty.>

Exactly what I meant. Thank you for clarifying where I did not do as well. :)
And yes I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Gayle more than a few times personally, and hear her take on this situation.

In this nation, I feel strongly that people should not only be convicted of the crimes they actually perpetrate...but also charged- based on verifiable evidence and sometimes, those do not seem to coincide. To me- the charging is where it all begins.
As Americans, I believe we want justice for the crimes committed daily in our homes, neighborhoods, communities, our nation. That begins with initial crime scene processing, as well as the prosecutorial steps taken from that moment on.

Thanks for your post.

wfgodot

12-10-2009, 04:40 PM

As an aside, Bookfinder.com is listing a copy for $7.94 (hardcover, good condition). There are signed copies of the book going for as high as $400.

Thanks again, shadowangel---just got the book in the mail today. I hadn't remembered how absolutely well-written it is. The Wilkerson brothers---OSBI agents with Cherokee bloodlines---start with almost two pages about Locust Grove and the Cherokee Nation, excellent stuff well-handled. And by page four, one's heart is already broken:

"The children were more or less allowed to select their tentmates. After the selection, three girls were left. They were left because they did not know anyone in the unit and they had been too shy to make friends on the bus ride to camp."

And by page five, the enduring chill sets in:

""The clouds were still hanging ominously and it was still raining moderately when the Kiowa counselors decided to make the trek back to their unit. With counselors in the lead, the children went half-running into the dusky darkness."

believe09

12-10-2009, 04:53 PM

Like Oriah, I am concerned about the specifics of the crime, because it is my feeling that one girl was targeted for a specific reason, whatever that reason may have been. At least, IMO. One was handled so differently from the others, it is hard not to make that assumption. From most of my reading, it seems that the two girls who were bludgeoned were hit in the tent and then taken out. The killers took the time to wipe up the blood as much as they could and then hide the sheets they used in the sleeping bags where the children were hogtied and hidden.

It did occur to me, wfo, when I linked the stats regarding the bodily fluids comparison from 1989, that there was likely a concentration of people with Native blood in that area which may have made the stat meaningless essentially, EXCEPT DNA testing was available then and there is no specification of whether or not the "bodily fluid" test was all or in part related to DNA.....

wfgodot

12-10-2009, 05:10 PM

Like Oriah, I am concerned about the specifics of the crime, because it is my feeling that one girl was targeted for a specific reason, whatever that reason may have been. At least, IMO. One was handled so differently from the others, it is hard not to make that assumption. From most of my reading, it seems that the two girls who were bludgeoned were hit in the tent and then taken out. The killers took the time to wipe up the blood as much as they could and then hide the sheets they used in the sleeping bags where the children were hogtied and hidden.

It did occur to me, wfo, when I linked the stats regarding the bodily fluids comparison from 1989, that there was likely a concentration of people with Native blood in that area which may have made the stat meaningless essentially, EXCEPT DNA testing was available then and there is no specification of whether or not the "bodily fluid" test was all or in part related to DNA.....

Right on the one possibly being targeted. Denise Milner's body seems obviously to have been staged (a term I didn't know back in the early '80s when I first read the book). I'm remembering the absolutely odd details of that night---what you refer to above, plus the screw hooks which held the back flaps being unscrewed on several tents, including the victims', the stolen purses, etc. etc.---as I read along.

Oriah

12-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Yes, to me that seems the case as well.

Another question- anyone have clarification as to the actual physical rape evidence? Just because a victim is unclothed in certain places might certainly imply a sex-based crime. But not necessarily.

believe09

12-10-2009, 07:33 PM

Yes, to me that seems the case as well.

Another question- anyone have clarification as to the actual physical rape evidence? Just because a victim is unclothed in certain places might certainly imply a sex-based crime. But not necessarily.

I think it can at least be inferred from the locations of the degraded samples which were processed in 2007, that at least one of the campers was sexually attacked.

Oriah

12-10-2009, 07:37 PM

Also just wanted to post some lyrics to a song I feel speak strongly of this case, and sometimes music gets across to people before actual detail. You can find it on youtube if you want.

"Land Rights" by Xavier Rudd

Lyrics:
because it was sacred, because it was home
because these were feelings, from so long ago
they listened to the spirits, that came up strong
they all pulled together, to sing their song

this is how they did it, spears by their side
they stood on the mountain, for their land rights
all the people noticed, the movement took flight
they said this is our home, these are our rights
this is our home, these are our rights

country it was taken, land dug up
families were broken, spirits were crushed
the language that was silenced, is now free to be passed
the cup that was empty, is slowly filling up

so we can pull together, show our children it is time
you see, this is our home, these are our rights
this is our home, there are our rights
this is our home, there are our rights

Oriah

12-10-2009, 07:40 PM

I think it can at least be inferred from the locations of the degraded samples which were processed in 2007, that at least one of the campers was sexually attacked.

Yes that's what I get also. While alive (sorry for the graphic) ?

Laura_Bean

12-11-2009, 11:51 AM

Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.

Oriah

12-11-2009, 12:25 PM

Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.

Yes. IMO, that is 100% accurate.

Oriah

12-11-2009, 12:30 PM

Sorry- should have clarifed- IMO the results of the testing done at the time (and in '87) are almost completely worthless because the population density in that area is such that it would not rule out most of the population in the town- or the county- or about 100 miles in any direction.

Laura Bean- I meant to say I believe YOU are accurate in this understanding. ;)

wfgodot

12-11-2009, 01:06 PM

Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.

If it included everyone who was 1/16th, 1/32nd, 1/64th, 1/128th or 1/256th Native, that would include about everyone in NE OK. There are many of us, but, say, 1/8th up to 7/8th are rare, as are full-bloods. (I once taught a Cherokee student who was on the rolls at 15/16th. She knew she was full-blooded, but one of her great-grandmothers had subtracted a bit of N.A. and added "white" because she feared that every full-blood might be a target and his or her life thus endangered, and she didn't want that for her descendents.)

wfgodot

12-12-2009, 10:12 PM

Seven interesting things from "Someone Cry for the Children":

* When Hart died in 1979, in the year after he was found not guilty at trial, the autopsy stated heart failure to be the cause; many, of course, felt he had been murdered, perhaps by inmates who thought he was guilty, or by prison officials, or both. One day before Hart died, "enough cyanide to kill eight hundred inmates" was uncovered and confiscated from prisoners at the McAlester prison. One can't help but think at least some of it, for reasons unknown, went undiscovered.

* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.

* By 1981, three years after the trial, a total of 12 OSBI agents who worked the crimes, including the book's authors, had resigned their positions, along with a chemist who worked the case for the Bureau; another agent "stepped down as Inspector-in-charge of the NE OK Regional Office."

I'm sure that many OSBI personnel were disgruntled by the trial's outcome; I'm also sure that this number of resignations is high, even given that dissatisfaction. One wonders how many resigned because of disgruntlement with the Bureau itself, and its "Hart did it; Hart alone" handling of the case---or if some of them perhaps resigned under pressure, for not entirely "being on the same page" as the Bureau in regards aspects of the evidence used against Hart.

* The book names two other possible suspects, including Jack Schroff, whose farm was within two miles of the camp, and which he reported had been burgalized; Schroff identified the duct tape found at the crime scene as looking like tape he had owned which he reported stolen; he later "remembered" his roll of tape "had his initials on the inside," thus refuting his earlier ID.

Agents worked on the assumption that the burglary might have been staged "when Schroff realized that he had left his flashlight and tape at the scene." Schroff later passed a lie detector test, but, shortly afterwards, became upset and refused to allow OSBI agents to search his home in Tulsa.

* Another possible suspect was Bill Stevens: "Kimberly Lewis, a young scout who was at Camp Scott during the murders...testified that she saw a man who resembled Stevens" the night of the crimes. "She said that she had lifted up the back of her tent and shone a flashlight outside," and saw Stevens. After the trial, the three other girls in the tent did not remember the incident having taken place. A waitress near Locust Grove also reported seeing Stevens in her restaurant the morning after the crimes---looking down at his boots, which two others had claimed to have seen with, possibly, blood on them.

* Two crucial pieces of evidence---a mirror and a corncob pipe---were allegedly found at the home of Sam Pigeon, who hid Hart after the crimes. These items were not discovered during the first search of Pigeon's home, and it would be possible that, therefore, they were planted afterwards and "found" during the second search.

* Finally, while the authors seem fully to support OSBI's arrest of Hart, this exchange is reported between one of the authors and Tom Kennedy, who had recently been named head of OSBI: "I just know one thing," Kennedy tells Mike Wilkerson. "If we don't catch Gene Leroy Hart, it's the end of our bureau." It's a curious inclusion by the authors. One can also read it as, "We've put all our eggs in one basket and we must catch Hart." And, somehow, by whatever means, pin the murders on him alone.

Oriah

12-13-2009, 10:43 AM

<* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.>

I have always been confused by this. It doesn't rule out anything. And if LE has the analysis of those samples, LE knows exactly how many people perpetrated that aspect of this crime.

wfgodot

12-13-2009, 11:06 AM

<* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.>

I have always been confused by this. It doesn't rule out anything. And if LE has the analysis of those samples, LE knows exactly how many people perpetrated that aspect of this crime.

Yeppers, the whole issue of the deformed spermatazoa---which was made a big deal of because LE speculated Hart's vasectomy was "leaking," so to speak---seems to be moot after the revelation that an entire vesicle was intact. (I don't really know enough about the process or the results on subsequent emissions if one vesicle is left intact, though.)

The Wilkersons's book doesn't really tie up many loose ends, e.g. the above plus the bloody footprints (two pair) found on the tent floor; I just feel that they must have had some doubts about Hart being the only perp, though they follow the company line in their narrative. It's what the authors don't do, though, that is telling.

Oriah

12-13-2009, 11:47 AM

Yeppers, the whole issue of the deformed spermatazoa---which was made a big deal of because LE speculated Hart's vasectomy was "leaking," so to speak---seems to be moot after the revelation that an entire vesicle was intact. (I don't really know enough about the process or the results on subsequent emissions if one vesicle is left intact, though.)

The Wilkersons's book doesn't really tie up many loose ends, e.g. the above plus the bloody footprints (two pair) found on the tent floor; I just feel that they must have had some doubts about Hart being the only perp, though they follow the company line in their narrative. It's what the authors don't do, though, that is telling.

Agree entirely.

wfgodot

12-13-2009, 12:03 PM

Agree entirely.

Another aspect of the book I'd totally forgotten in the 28 years since I'd read it: the respect paid to the Cherokee religion and to the medicine men, and to the very possible efficacy of their practice. The book works because of the interplay of the OSBI/police procedural aspect, and the attention paid to the Cherokee way of knowledge (the latter has a bit of the "period piece" feel about it because of the massive interest in the Carlos Castenda books at the time).

Nyla4

01-29-2010, 11:29 PM

In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )

I thought that Hart had a vasectomy that didn't take on one of his testes causing deformed sperm and that this deformed sperm was found on the samples taken from one of the girls? Please correct me if I'm wrong. What you say about the DNA potentially matching 6 to 10 other Native American men in the Locust Grove area makes me think I may be wrong in my belief that Hart is guilty.(if I was also wrong about Gene Leroy Hart's botched vasectomy) Can you give me examples of how Hart was railroaded? I have the book Someone Cry for the Children. Do you think this book is biased and just plain wrong about the case?

wfgodot

01-30-2010, 09:51 AM

I thought that Hart had a vasectomy that didn't take on one of his testes causing deformed sperm and that this deformed sperm was found on the samples taken from one of the girls? Please correct me if I'm wrong. What you say about the DNA potentially matching 6 to 10 other Native American men in the Locust Grove area makes me think I may be wrong in my belief that Hart is guilty.(if I was also wrong about Gene Leroy Hart's botched vasectomy) Can you give me examples of how Hart was railroaded? I have the book Someone Cry for the Children. Do you think this book is biased and just plain wrong about the case?

The book was written by former OSBI agents who defended every aspect of LE's case against Hart; to me, that shows natural bias.

It is not satisfactory to dismiss the jurors's verdict: they found Hart not guilty, and they heard every bit of evidence presented by the prosecution attempting to establish Hart's guilt.

As for "railroading," to me the most telling aspect was LE's "discovery" of two crucial pieces of evidence - the mirror and the corncob pipe, later identified by one of the older Scouts as having belonged to her - at the home of Mr. Pigeon during a second search.

The book attempts to establish in the reader's mind that, because Hart was Native American, the people of the region, and thus the jurors, were biased in his favor; he was "one of them." It does not do enough to investigate the corollary: that Hart was singled out in the first place because he was the convenient, Locust Grove-area, "bad Indian."

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

pudd

01-30-2010, 05:46 PM

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

wfgodot, this is the best thing I've read in ages. Very good point!

wfgodot

01-30-2010, 06:17 PM

Not saying for a minute that the jury in the Hart trial made the wrong decision, but my last thought above is part and parcel with the English jurist William Blackstone's statement, "Better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer." (The principle goes at least all the way back to Genesis 18:23-32.)

Nyla4

01-30-2010, 11:55 PM

The book was written by former OSBI agents who defended every aspect of LE's case against Hart; to me, that shows natural bias.

It is not satisfactory to dismiss the jurors's verdict: they found Hart not guilty, and they heard every bit of evidence presented by the prosecution attempting to establish Hart's guilt.

As for "railroading," to me the most telling aspect was LE's "discovery" of two crucial pieces of evidence - the mirror and the corncob pipe, later identified by one of the older Scouts as having belonged to her - at the home of Mr. Pigeon during a second search.

The book attempts to establish in the reader's mind that, because Hart was Native American, the people of the region, and thus the jurors, were biased in his favor; he was "one of them." It does not do enough to investigate the corollary: that Hart was singled out in the first place because he was the convenient, Locust Grove-area, "bad Indian."

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

That is so offensive of the authors! That makes me so mad! :banghead: I first heard of this case when I was reading at the boards for the A&E channel about a year and a half ago so I am still new to this case and all of the facts. I don't understand how no one heard the girls screaming. To me there is a difference between girls shrieking in a playful and screaming in fright. Do you think someone on the Camp staff could have been an accomplice or involved in some way?

BTW Thank you for your knowledge on the DNA.

rosario

04-03-2010, 01:02 AM

this is one of the most terrifying and sad cases i have read....i think they (le) owe it to everyone, victims, families,community, native americans in the area, and law enforcement to explore absolutely every aspect of evidence possible to seek the truth...so horrible..

EziliGede

08-09-2010, 04:13 PM

I'm currently reading Someone Cry For The Children, and I must admit, this case gives me the absolute chills. I feel the book tries hard to push Hart as the sole suspect, and there is damning evidence to point to him. However, I personally feel that Hart didn't act alone (if guilty), I think he had an accomplice.
In the book, there's so many eye witnesses to strange going ons at the campsite on that night. I have to wonder what else would come to light if they were reinterviewed.
My biggest hesitation to accuse Hart is that he's never targeted children before, all of his past victims have been adults. He's also never been guilty of murder before. Of course, this doesn't prove anything as he might have changed focused, but I do find it hinky that his past crimes don't immediately point to these murders. MOO.

Snarky247

09-26-2010, 01:57 AM

My best friend was at Camp Scott that night. I was so jealous of her being able to go to a "real" sleepaway camp. I'll never forget her comments after the killings - (paraphrasing) "I heard screams" "I thought I was having a bad dream" & "It could have been me & I don't want to talk about it." We've talked hundreds of times since then & except for that one conversation, we don't speak of it.It breaks my heart because I know it affects her & how she raises her kids today.

cdp1983

11-03-2010, 06:16 AM

This case is absolutely terrifying.... Every little detail about it... Scares me even more to know I live less that 2 hours from that spot. I am a little surprised I have never heard about this! I was born in 83, and just stumbled upon the story yesterday. My girls will never go to scout camp, or any camp for that matter after discovering this story...

crazyladi

12-12-2010, 11:01 PM

I am a girl guide leader in Canada and after reading this it has made me thing twice about sending my daughter in the summer again.

crazyladi

12-12-2010, 11:01 PM

Summer camp where they go for a week and sleepover in tents

wfgodot

01-05-2011, 10:38 AM

OETA "Stateline" documentary looks back at the crime:

"There's a thumb print on the flashlight and it's not Hart's thumb print."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wzoxJ_vxM

momtolil

01-05-2011, 02:48 PM

So very sad. Thank you for posting wfgodot. That clip really brought this crime to life for me. I have a 6 year old daughter who is a Girl Scout Daisy. Scary.

Now, after watching, I am convinced Hart did it.
It almost reminds me of the OJ case, where the towns people looked at his ethnicity and the thought that Hart was a good guy more than the truth and the evidence.
How could these people think he would/could never do anything to those girls after knowing about his criminal past which included Jail escape, rape and kidnapping?? Even if he had a partner in this crime, he should have been convicted.
It is quite maddening, for me at least,.... I'm sure people will disagree with me.

wfgodot

01-05-2011, 03:49 PM

So very sad. Thank you for posting wfgodot. That clip really brought this crime to life for me. I have a 6 year old daughter who is a Girl Scout Daisy. Scary.

Now, after watching, I am convinced Hart did it.
It almost reminds me of the OJ case, where the towns people looked at his ethnicity and the thought that Hart was a good guy more than the truth and the evidence.
How could these people think he would/could never do anything to those girls after knowing about his criminal past which included Jail escape, rape and kidnapping?? Even if he had a partner in this crime, he should have been convicted.
It is quite maddening, for me at least,.... I'm sure people will disagree with me.

You're welcome! I was glad to find it and pass it along. We disagree on GLH - though he was a screw-up and I believe he was guilty of his earlier crimes, he had no history of harming children; if he had, the same Cherokee Nation which offered its support would have turned on him with rage.

wfgodot

06-13-2011, 10:01 AM

New book revisits ‘Girl Scout Murders’ (http://pryordailytimes.com/features/x1943989959/New-book-revisits-Girl-Scout-Murders) (Pryor Daily Times)

Soon a new book “Tent Number Eight” by attorney Gloyd McCoy, of Noble, will be released, revisiting the tragic summer and the trial that followed.
---
McCoy has strong feelings about the case. He thinks there were some “little peculiarities” that affected the judgment of those involved with the case. McCoy also leads readers through the evidence.

“I wanted people to understand why the jury voted the way they did,” McCoy said. “I went in with an open mind. I was surprised by the total lack of evidence the state had.”
---
The book is being published by Tate Publishing of Mustang. McCoy said it will be availabe online this week. A Pryor book signing is in the works for July.
more at link above

wfgodot

06-13-2011, 05:08 PM

Today, by the way, is the 34th anniversary of the deaths of the Girl Scouts at Camp Scott, Locust Grove.

wfgodot

06-13-2011, 05:11 PM

Filmmaker says he will solve the 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=371&articleid=20110613_371_0_Aforme284723) (Tulsa World)
A former Tulsan says a film he’s planning will not “sensationalize” but rather solve the 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts in Mayes County, as he intends to identify the killer.

John Russell, who is the writer and director of the film, said he has the blessing of two of the three girls’ families on the project but no cooperation from law enforcement or the court system because “we’re going to name the actual killer, and it’s going to be an embarrassment to many people.

“We’re trying to put to bed the information that’s been out there for 34 years. We’re going to show who it was and that it was not Gene Hart. The person who fit the (crime) perfectly has never been investigated, and I think that people protected that person,” he said.
---much more at Tulsa World link above

Ms Suzanne

06-13-2011, 08:26 PM

This is very sad.This is the one story and case I tried to look into about 4 years ago that I just couldn't.I've seen alot of cases.But this one scared me.So I did not look into.I will try to again to see what I think happened.Can any one lead me to a link with the evidence in this case?

wfgodot

06-13-2011, 08:40 PM

This is very sad.This is the one story and case I tried to look into about 4 years ago that I just couldn't.I've seen alot of cases.But this one scared me.So I did not look into.I will try to again to see what I think happened.Can any one lead me to a link with the evidence in this case?

This is a pretty interesting site: http://girlscoutmurders.com/

Lots of info all over the web as this case always has had much interest.

Ms Suzanne

06-13-2011, 10:18 PM

This is a pretty interesting site: http://girlscoutmurders.com/

Lots of info all over the web as this case always has had much interest.
Thank you.I found this very interesting in the time line.

July 29 1977

A private security team looking after camp scott see's what they think is a person in the woods.After coming back from investigating they find a pair of Denise Milners shoes and socks,wet,in a bag on the steps of the camp directors house.

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/TIMELINE3.html

I find this very strange.They first get note(s) saying 4 girls were going to be killed?and they did not shut the place down.Then little Denise Milners things were found at the camp directors house steps in a bag.Curious What do you think of that?Was his house right there at the camp site or some where else?I'm also curious why only little Denise Milners shoes and socks and not the other little girls?

Ms Suzanne

06-13-2011, 11:19 PM

OETA "Stateline" documentary looks back at the crime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wzoxJ_vxM
http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/TIMELINE.html

It says here July 14 1977

It is published in the press that a tennis shoe print is found outside the tent and a different type print is found inside.Is this true?Were both prints in blood?Which print was 9 1/2 that didn't match Harts 11 1/2?What size were both shoe prints?

So far this is showing me there are two people.

IzzyBlanche

06-16-2011, 10:40 PM

Filmmaker says he will solve the 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=371&articleid=20110613_371_0_Aforme284723) (Tulsa World)
much more at Tulsa World link above

I really hope he accomplishes what he says he will. I grew up in Oklahoma, and I was a teenager when this happened. I remember clear as day being at my relatives' house and hearing the shocking news reports on the TV. Mostly I remember the videos of the surviving campers being frantically loaded up on buses to return home.

I also, until fairly recently, took Hart's guilt for granted. It's only after educating myself about victimology did I start to think it's highly unlikely that a man with a record of raping adult women would suddenly target children, and in such a brutal manner.

I just hope and pray that the truth comes out, one way or the other.

mysteriew

06-28-2011, 10:49 PM

Filmmaker Behind Movie About Oklahoma's Girl Scout Murders Has Criminal Past
http://www.news9.com/story/14993957/girl-scout-murder

Reannan

07-06-2011, 12:58 PM

Filmmaker Behind Movie About Oklahoma's Girl Scout Murders Has Criminal Past
http://www.news9.com/story/14993957/girl-scout-murder

Interesting that this 'film director' goes by the name John Russell in some articles, like the one on Fox News today:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/07/06/ex-con-claims-film-will-reveal-killer-behind-heinous-decades-old-girl-scouts/

and in other articles, including the one Mysteryiew linked above, he uses the name "John Russell Penn". I found a 2007 article about this terrible crime which I will link below. It is really interesting that someone by the name of 'John Penn' left a comment from 5/18/2011 about the crime. I would bet that the new movie "Candles" is going to claim the murderer was the individual mentioned in the comment. Here is the comment:

John Penn 05/18/2011 Can anyone tell me (and by anyone, I mean law enforcement officials) why Karl Lee Myers was never considered a suspect in the Camp Scott murders? He was a child rapist and known killer in the Northeast Oklahoma area.

and here is a link to the article it was posted at:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/284515/the_oklahoma_girl_scout_murders.html?cat=37

wfgodot

07-06-2011, 01:07 PM

YouTube now has, in six parts, the full-length documentary about the case, "Someone Cry for the Children," from 1993. Not to be missed. Supports the case against Hart, with which I disagree. Still, excellent throughout - interviews with most of the players. Based on the book of the same name.

Here's the first part:
YouTube - ‪Someone Cry For the Children: The Girl Scout Murders (1/6)‬&rlm;

Part 2 (http://bit.ly/nBwogi)
Part 3 (http://bit.ly/rh1abw)
Part 4 (http://bit.ly/pXTqIQ)
Part 5 (http://bit.ly/oKFAaw)
Part 6 (http://bit.ly/p9576T)

Kat

07-09-2011, 12:50 AM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/1977-girl-scout-murders-con-claims-film-solve/story?id=14022194

By RESHMA KIRPALANI
July 8, 2011

1977 Girl Scout Murders: Ex-Con Claims His Film Will Solve Case

Two page article.

wfgodot

07-10-2011, 09:15 AM

Film planned about Girl Scout murders dredges up dark memories (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=282&articleid=20110710_282_D1_CUTLIN223166) (Tulsa World)
---
"It doesn't concern me that he has a criminal past. Whoever comes up with the right information is very likely to have a very shady past," [Sheri Farmer, mother of one of the victims] said of [proposed filmmaker John Russell] Penn, who says the killer confessed to him while they were both incarcerated. Although he will not provide the name, Penn said the killer is alive today.
---
Stan Florence, director of the OSBI, recently spoke with Penn, said Jessica Brown, the agency's spokeswoman.

"(Penn) did provide Mr. Florence with some information that an agent is investigating," Brown said. She would not say if Penn had supplied the agency with the name of a suspect, but Penn said he gave Florence the name of the person who he believes committed the murders.
---
(much more at link above)

tfrohning

07-10-2011, 09:39 AM

According to Penn, the true killer is a convicted rapist and murderer who currently sits on death row in Oklahoma

If this true I would think this guy would confess he has nothing left. He on death roll!
a list to death roll in OK...
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/offenders/deathrow.htm

DEATH ROW MONTHLY ROSTER

Kat

07-11-2011, 06:07 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/07/11/family-murdered-girl-scout-skeptical-but-open-to-ex-cons-film-that-promises-to/

“I believe there is another way to get to the killer than a movie and I told the filmmaker I hoped he would explore those things and I would prefer a movie not be made,” Sheri Farmer, the mother of Lori Lee Farmer, told FoxNews.com exclusively. “But my husband and I are very interested in finding out the truth of what happened. I do not think we have the whole answer and somebody out there knows it. If there is someone involved who is not in prison they need to be and this movie could help,” she says.

Note: If you click on Lori Lee Farmer's picture at the link above there is a slide show of about 8 pictures of her. So heartbreaking.

taramarie

07-11-2011, 09:43 PM

According to Penn, the true killer is a convicted rapist and murderer who currently sits on death row in Oklahoma

If this true I would think this guy would confess he has nothing left. He on death roll!
a list to death roll in OK...
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/offenders/deathrow.htm

DEATH ROW MONTHLY ROSTER

Unless, of course, he gets joy out of continuing to torment his victims' families by keeping his secret. I would imagine that the kind of person it must take to commit such an abominable crime would take pleasure in absolutely any kind of power he can retain.

Koby

07-14-2011, 05:37 AM

Hello, everyone. I'm new to the forums, so I hope you don't mind my butting in with a few comments and questions.
Firstly, I just wanted to make an observation about people wondering how one person managed to keep the three girls quiet and under control. I just wanted to point out that Hart did manage to kidnap two young women. If two adults can be controlled, isn't it likely that three young girls could be even more easily controlled? The fact that one scream was heard suggests to me the scenario that the killer surprised the children, someone screamed, but he quickly got them quiet. At night, with a weapon, I don't think it would be difficult to scare children into doing what you wanted. I don't think this is proof that there must have been more than one person.
Secondly, I have a question about the footprints. One was a boot and one was a tennis shoe, correct? Which was inside and which was outside? Another question, do we know if they were bound before or after they were killed? My understanding is that there was tape over the mouths of at least two? Wouldn't it be likely that they were bound before being killed? That could account for no one hearing them screaming during the attack. Also, if Milner was treated differently than the other girls, do we know who was killed first? That could give us some clues.
I'm undecided about what I think right now, regarding the number of killers and whether Hart was involved or not. I'm still reading up on everything, but I have a theory.

Koby

07-14-2011, 05:42 AM

Sorry to double post, but another thought occurred to me. Perhaps, if the person who did this is alive and on death row, confessing may not be what they have to lose, but more about what they have to gain. If it looks like there is evidence against someone and they are about to be executed...wouldn't they have to stay the execution in order to investigate/go to trial? Just a thought...

Pensfan

07-16-2011, 04:09 PM

What is extremely disturbing is the comment from one of the victims' family. When they entered the courtroom for the trial, they were made to feel that they were "the enemy". The jury saw that a hometown man was on trial for the death of "outsiders".

Sadly, this incestuous mentality still exists in some areas. Never travel off the highway in SE Oklahoma.

Soulmagent

07-16-2011, 04:55 PM

According to Penn, the true killer is a convicted rapist and murderer who currently sits on death row in Oklahoma

If this true I would think this guy would confess he has nothing left. He on death roll!
a list to death roll in OK...
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/offenders/deathrow.htm

DEATH ROW MONTHLY ROSTER

I feel like I am missing something. I found where an article says he died in prison of a heart attack. No death penalty search I came up with is showing him.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_U6toNF3ClEJ:campscottmurders.brave journal.com/+gene+leroy+hart&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

eileenhawkeye

07-16-2011, 05:03 PM

Is SE Oklahoma where the Jamison family went missing?

Soulmagent

07-16-2011, 05:25 PM

Is SE Oklahoma where the Jamison family went missing?

Yes they went missing from Red Oak ,in Latimere county oklahoma on the panola mountain.

Koby

07-16-2011, 08:40 PM

I feel like I am missing something. I found where an article says he died in prison of a heart attack. No death penalty search I came up with is showing him.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_U6toNF3ClEJ:campscottmurders.brave journal.com/+gene+leroy+hart&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Hey, Soulmagent. Hart died in prison. There is a man who now says that Hart didn't do it and that the real killer is on death row. Hope this helps.

CanManEh

07-17-2011, 02:58 AM

After reading alot of posts and articles 2 things come to mind the first is that thier is no way this was done by just one person but what i find more interesting is with all the tents that were set up how did this guy or guys know to pick the only tent with no adult inside .Something just doesn't seem right about this case to me or maybe iam missing something but i get the feeling something is being lrft out..

Koby

07-17-2011, 03:30 AM

After reading alot of posts and articles 2 things come to mind the first is that thier is no way this was done by just one person but what i find more interesting is with all the tents that were set up how did this guy or guys know to pick the only tent with no adult inside .Something just doesn't seem right about this case to me or maybe iam missing something but i get the feeling something is being lrft out..

I'll have to look again, but I think it said that it was one of a few tents with no adult. I don't think it was the only one. Some of the girls said that a man was watching them/looked into their tents. The person who did this probably found out that way. As for the number of killers, I'm not saying I'm totally discounting that there was more than one person, but... It would be very possible for one person to do this. I just wish I had answers to the questions I have.

CanManEh

07-18-2011, 01:00 AM

I watch a 6 part documentry last night on this case last night on you tube and it was kinda disturbing actually . The way the town rallied around the obvious suspect in my oppinion was just plain strange and the way some of the officers went about this case was just messed up using indian medecine man and smoking themselves with tobacco the officers did this but at the end it did state that the hairs were a match and the dna left in the girls was a 99.8 percent match thats pretty solid evidence to me not to mention that when he was found he was wearing one of the girls glasses . I don't know what this guy is making a movie for i would say the dna match settles this one but i would like to see a updated version of the documentry i saw last night .

Pensfan

07-20-2011, 01:26 AM

After reading alot of posts and articles 2 things come to mind the first is that thier is no way this was done by just one person but what i find more interesting is with all the tents that were set up how did this guy or guys know to pick the only tent with no adult inside .Something just doesn't seem right about this case to me or maybe iam missing something but i get the feeling something is being lrft out..
I went to a "regional" Girl Scout exactly like this around Davis, Ok- Sulfer, Ok. except the tents were on wooden platforms. There were never any adults in the girls tents. The adults slept in the "leader" tent with other Girl Scout leaders. (Yes, there was once a time when the most dangerous things at such camps were mosquitoes and rattlesnakes.)

Pensfan

07-20-2011, 02:31 AM

I think this new movie (if it is ever filmed) will blame Karl Myers and it wouldn't be surprising to learn that Karl Myers confessed to this unbelievable crime since his behavior was psychopathic. The man supporting this film likely served time with Karl since Karl was sent to the penitentiary near Kansas (where the filmmaker lived).

Although Karl somehow managed to get a driver's license, he scored in the mentally retarded range on several IQ tests. He never scored above borderline mentally retarded on any IQ test he was ever given. Although it doesn't take a genius to murder three defenseless little girls, Karl might not have possessed the intelligence to adequately hide his surveillance of the girls and his involvement in the murders. In addition, Karl hunted for all his victims close to his home in Picher. He lived in Picher all his life which is 90 minutes from where the girls were murdered in Locust Grove.

Ms Suzanne

07-20-2011, 01:46 PM

OETA "Stateline" documentary looks back at the crime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wzoxJ_vxM
This case and story is very hard for me to look into.I've sadly seen many cases.This one bothers me the most.I will say this when I first looked into this 5 years ago.I started out defending Hart.I am not doing that any more.I'm not sure if he was there or not.The more I look into this.The more I believe and agree with what the female Juror has to say.She says and I agree with her That she is not saying he's not guilty.But evidence proved there was more than one person there.I too believe someone else was there.The video says DNA tests were done on material.Is that just one piece of material? of evidence? 3 matched Hart.2 did not.Was there other DNA on that material too.Was it someone elses DNA?

Ms Suzanne

07-20-2011, 02:12 PM

Can someone please help me.I believe I read somewhere.Hart lived with someone else somewhere?Someone helped him in the cave?Can someone help me with that story.who was this guy?Can someone tell me a little about him?

Ms Suzanne

07-20-2011, 02:16 PM

Hello, everyone. I'm new to the forums, so I hope you don't mind my butting in with a few comments and questions.
Firstly, I just wanted to make an observation about people wondering how one person managed to keep the three girls quiet and under control. I just wanted to point out that Hart did manage to kidnap two young women. If two adults can be controlled, isn't it likely that three young girls could be even more easily controlled? The fact that one scream was heard suggests to me the scenario that the killer surprised the children, someone screamed, but he quickly got them quiet. At night, with a weapon, I don't think it would be difficult to scare children into doing what you wanted. I don't think this is proof that there must have been more than one person.
Secondly, I have a question about the footprints. One was a boot and one was a tennis shoe, correct? Which was inside and which was outside? Another question, do we know if they were bound before or after they were killed? My understanding is that there was tape over the mouths of at least two? Wouldn't it be likely that they were bound before being killed? That could account for no one hearing them screaming during the attack. Also, if Milner was treated differently than the other girls, do we know who was killed first? That could give us some clues.
I'm undecided about what I think right now, regarding the number of killers and whether Hart was involved or not. I'm still reading up on everything, but I have a theory.
Was Doris Milner treated differently?May I please ask how?

Pensfan

07-21-2011, 02:23 AM

Was Doris Milner treated differently?May I please ask how?
Michele Guse, 9, and Lori Lee Farmer, 8, had been beaten to death. Doris Milner, 10, had been beaten and strangled. All three had been raped. Michele's and Lori's bodies lay in zipped sleeping bags. Doris Milner was laying nude from the waist on the ground.

I have read that she might have been led from the tent as opposed to the others who were likely struck with a heavy object and carried out.

jestor

07-26-2011, 08:02 PM

What is extremely disturbing is the comment from one of the victims' family. When they entered the courtroom for the trial, they were made to feel that they were "the enemy". The jury saw that a hometown man was on trial for the death of "outsiders".

Sadly, this incestuous mentality still exists in some areas. Never travel off the highway in SE Oklahoma.

I can't disagree with that sentiment, though I would argue ALL of Oklahoma is like that, not just the SE. I've had the unpleasant experience of driving through OK a few times while traveling across the Southwest. The people are very cold towards outsiders. I had a moving van breakdown once on the turnpike with my very pregnant wife and could get no assistance, not even from the Hwy patrol. Many people flipped me off and yelled insults..... like I had no right to be in their state....LOL. Finally a fellow out-of-state traveler stopped and helped out. He explained to me that I would have died out there before an OK stopped to even offer to call a tow truck. Since then, I go out of way to avoid passing through Oklahoma.

jestor

07-26-2011, 08:15 PM

I've only taken a recent interest in this case, so my apologies if I'm mis-spoken in my post. I intend to read much more on the case over the next few weeks. That said, here goes..... In my opinion the perpetrator(s) of this unspeakable crime fit one of only a few general profiles. Let's face it, there's a pretty small subset of individuals in our society who commit such violent acts against young children. I believe the perp has committed sexual crimes against children in the past and has pedophiliac tendencies known or unknown to authorities. Given the planning, execution and physically violent nature of the Camp Scott attacks, it is unlikely this was a "first time" for the perp. Maybe it was the first time it involved murder. Perhaps the perp was arrested and convicted in the past, and decided this time he would leave no witnesses to provide identification and possibly testify. Of course, it's also possible that it's not his first child murder, and murdering his victim(s) is what always allowed him to remain free. I don't believe Hart was responsible. I think investigators should have and should still be looking for those with histories, charges and/or convictions involving the sexual assault of children. Given the time that has elapsed, I would definitely be looking for individuals from the general area who have served time time over the years and are possibly still serving time for similar crimes.

Anyone who would commit this type of crime would not only commit it once, and could not possibly fly under the radar for 30+ years. The culprit, whether still alive or dead is hiding in plain sight. Investigators need to change their focus.

Pensfan

07-28-2011, 03:41 AM

I can't disagree with that sentiment, though I would argue ALL of Oklahoma is like that, not just the SE. I've had the unpleasant experience of driving through OK a few times while traveling across the Southwest. The people are very cold towards outsiders. I had a moving van breakdown once on the turnpike with my very pregnant wife and could get no assistance, not even from the Hwy patrol. Many people flipped me off and yelled insults..... like I had no right to be in their state....LOL. Finally a fellow out-of-state traveler stopped and helped out. He explained to me that I would have died out there before an OK stopped to even offer to call a tow truck. Since then, I go out of way to avoid passing through Oklahoma.
I will have to respectfully state that I am surprised by your assessment of Okies. A great majority of us are extremely friendly. The problem with SE Oklahoma is caused by the dangers associated with the transportation of drugs up Interstate 69 and the marijuana crops (which one can accidentally stumble into if you take detours off main roads).

Pensfan

07-28-2011, 03:48 AM

I've only taken a recent interest in this case, so my apologies if I'm mis-spoken in my post. I intend to read much more on the case over the next few weeks. That said, here goes..... In my opinion the perpetrator(s) of this unspeakable crime fit one of only a few general profiles. Let's face it, there's a pretty small subset of individuals in our society who commit such violent acts against young children. I believe the perp has committed sexual crimes against children in the past and has pedophiliac tendencies known or unknown to authorities. Given the planning, execution and physically violent nature of the Camp Scott attacks, it is unlikely this was a "first time" for the perp. Maybe it was the first time it involved murder. Perhaps the perp was arrested and convicted in the past, and decided this time he would leave no witnesses to provide identification and possibly testify. Of course, it's also possible that it's not his first child murder, and murdering his victim(s) is what always allowed him to remain free. I don't believe Hart was responsible. I think investigators should have and should still be looking for those with histories, charges and/or convictions involving the sexual assault of children. Given the time that has elapsed, I would definitely be looking for individuals from the general area who have served time time over the years and are possibly still serving time for similar crimes.

Anyone who would commit this type of crime would not only commit it once, and could not possibly fly under the radar for 30+ years. The culprit, whether still alive or dead is hiding in plain sight. Investigators need to change their focus.
I was in my 20s when this occurred and heard stories about the caretaker's son who was a young adult male. He was supposedly a pedophile who had raped several of his younger siblings and cousins. Does anyone know if the book Cry for the Children talked about this man's interrogation? What was stated about him? Why was he not considered a person of interest?

wfgodot

12-15-2011, 09:05 AM

Director names alleged Girl Scouts killer in movie (http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/Article/Index/5776)
12/15/2011 7:28:02 AM (cherokeephoenix.org)
LOCUST GROVE, Okla. – The writer and director of the upcoming movie “Candles” said that convicted murderer Karl Lee Myers is the killer of the three Girl Scouts who were raped and murdered at Camp Scott in 1977.

John Russell said that Myers confessed to him about the murders of Lori Lee Farmer, 8; Michelle Guse, 9; and Denise Milner, 10, who were found dead June 13, 1977, at the camp near Locust Grove, Okla.
---
Russell said Myers confessed to him about the murders while each served time in the Ottawa County Jail in 1979.
---
He said he also plans to name local and state officials from that time period who he believes were complicit in covering Myers’ involvement with the murders.

Myers is currently serving a first-degree murder conviction on death row in the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in McAlester.
---
more at link above

SeekingJana

12-28-2011, 07:56 PM

I've followed this case for many years, also.
I think Hart was the perp, and that if DNA testing had only been more advanced, it could have been solved and he would have been convicted instead of acquitted " because ANOTHER person might have been an accomplice" RME!!!

For those who may have forgotten what I consider to be an important piece of the puzzle, Hart was BORN 1 mile from Camp Scott.
IMO, he was on the run, still a predator, of course, and planned this crime carefully as a sexual thrill kill and also as a way to get the kids off HIS land. I really believe he considered the camp to be a desecration of land that was important to him as a Cherokee.

BTW, don't know if it's posted here, but there is a newer book out. Published this past summer and has NOTHING to do with the " Candles" movie scammer.
It is called " Tent 8", and is said to be a very good book. I will be buying it next week. The older book on the case " Someone Cry For The Children" is almost impossible to find.. One on Amazon for around $60.

smm31822

12-28-2011, 11:36 PM

Thank you.I found this very interesting in the time line.

July 29 1977

A private security team looking after camp scott see's what they think is a person in the woods.After coming back from investigating they find a pair of Denise Milners shoes and socks,wet,in a bag on the steps of the camp directors house.

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/TIMELINE3.htmlMichele Guse, 9, and Lori Lee Farmer, 8, had been beaten to death. Doris Milner, 10, had been beaten and strangled. All three had been raped. Michele's and Lori's bodies lay in zipped sleeping bags. Doris Milner was laying nude from the waist on the ground.

I have read that she might have been led from the tent as opposed to the others who were likely struck with a heavy object and carried out.

I find this very strange.They first get note(s) saying 4 girls were going to be killed?and they did not shut the place down.Then little Denise Milners things were found at the camp directors house steps in a bag.Curious What do you think of that?Was his house right there at the camp site or some where else?I'm also curious why only little Denise Milners shoes and socks and not the other little girls?

I am new here so sorry if this has already been addressed. So Denise Milner was the victim "treated differently" than the other two and it was her things that were found at the camp directors house? Does anyone else find this strange?

SeekingJana

12-30-2011, 07:38 AM

Sometime after the 3 girls were killed, white tennis shoes with the name " Denise Milner" written on the tops of the shoes and a pair of pink socks were found in a plastic bag on the steps of one of the camp buildings. Obviously, they were meant to be found and associated with this victim.
Denise's mother believed at the time that items of this type ( white tennis shoes and pink socks) were among a list of missing items she had been asked to compile from the clothing returned to her.
The shoes and socks found in the bag were soaking wet. It has not been said if they were washed, rained on, or soaked with another type of liquid.
It has also not been established that the items belonged to Denise Milner, only that her mother believed that similar items were missing from her belongings when they were returned to the family.

Denise Milner was the largest and oldest of the 3 victims. ( Have you seen photos? Much more mature appearing compared to the other two girls, although still so young).
I think it is quite possible that her probably more mature body may have been more attractive to a sexual sadistic killer. She was still a child, but definitely more mature looking in the face than the other two girls.

While the 2 younger girls were found bound in the fetal position inside their sleeping bags, Denise's body was left out in the open beside the two bundled bodies, unclothed from the waist up, we are told. There MAY have been a racial motive involved in her postmortem staging and posing, which was degrading in nature compared to the other two girls'. It has been speculated.

The only official reason given for the moving of the bodies from the tent was that " he attempted to clean up the crime scene with their sheets and towels". No explanation has ever been given for what I and anyone else familiar with the facts of the crime consider to be staging/ posing of the bodies, nor did LE ever refer to the finding of the girls on or near Cookie Trail to be staging or posing. Obviously, moving 3 corpses and placing 2 inside sleeping bags and duct taping them into the fetal position is staging and posing. Also, wiping the blood from their bodies with their own sheets is part of the criminology. Less is known about exactly what was found on or with Denise Milner's body, except that she was found out in the open, partially unclothed. This indicates a deeper rage or lack of ' respect' for this particular victim compared to the postmortem posing of the other two. The two younger girls were also not victims of strangulation, which is usually viewed as a rage- filled method of murder.( Not that bludgeoning all 3 isn't indicative of rage.) The killer used unsophisticated, hands on methods to kill. He took considerable risk to return to the tent at least once to remove the two younger girls' bodies and their sleeping bags.

The most remarkable thing about the bodies as photographed in the sleeping bags is the lack of blood. They were obviously moved post mortem as the cloth sleeping bags show no blood at all, yet the wooden floor of their tent was extremely bloody and was removed on June 14, 1977, intact, in order to try to obtain forensic evidence. ( the two adult- sized footprints left in the girls' blood are known to the public).

The Guse and Farmer families have worked as crime victim advocates. Both families are well known and do speak with the media on occasion, when doing so could help bring justice to their daughters or other victims of crime.
As far as I know, the Milner family does not mention Denise's murder other than the one occasion to address the possible link with the tennis shoes and pink socks. One sister, who was born after Denise was murdered, has said that her life was restrictive because of what happened to her sister.
There was an unsuccessful civil suit filed by 2 of the families against the Girl Scouts for lack of proper security and supervision at Camp Scott. I don't know if the Milner family was one of the 2 families.
Perhaps the family's privacy has added to someone's sense of mystery about her?

All accounts I have read state that Denise was taken out of the tent alive. Then raped, bludgeoned and strangled somewhere on the camp grounds while the other campers slept. A low moaning sound was heard around 1:30 AM, which I believe was Denise,gagged and probably bound. I believe the method of her death was different in part, if not totally, because she was larger/ stronger and perhaps was the only girl who was awake when the attacks began. She may have also been the only girl to struggle, or if the first girl to be taken, assaulted and killed, thus the one who had to be kept quiet. The other two little girls were killed by blows to the head in their tent, where they lay. All 3 were raped, although it has not been said whether all 3 rapes were antemortem.
There are SOME differences in M.O. but not enough to lead me to believe that 2 perps. were involved. Definitely not to believe that a female was involved, as has been speculated from time to time due to DNA on a pillowcase which finally was ruled " Not excluded from belonging to one of the victims".

Not only was Hart on the run ( in the area) for years for the brutal rapes of 2 pregnant women in 1966, it should be noted that the 2 women he abducted and raped were teenagers, and only 3 months pregnant or less when they were attacked.
Thus, the victimology was not strikingly different nor was his methodology ( taking multiple victims at once).
JMO, and working from memory. I apologize in advance if there are any inaccuracies.

Reannan

12-31-2011, 01:50 PM

Thank you SeekingJana, for a well written overview of this case. This case haunts me, and I just can't imagine that it can't be solved!!! This is one of the cases that haunts me, and that I have in my prayers as we enter 2012. I am so proud of all of our WS members who remember these victims and their families! It is important that we not forget, and that we continue to seek justice.

SeekingJana

12-31-2011, 06:01 PM

Diane Denise Milner ( sometimes referred to as Diane, sometimes as Denise) was an African- American girl. There is an interview with on of the camp counselors who lived through this, who actually found the zipped up sleeping bags and realized why they were so heavy-- there was a little girl's body inside each one.

She answered questions on an old forum which I was able to access but did not save the link to. This counselor's first name is Carla.
She was asked by the other posters if it was unusual for an AA camper to be at Camp Scott in that era.
She said that the little Milner girl's presence was extremely unusual for that time and place, and that she was welcomed and socialized well with the other girls.

One last thing which COULD have some meaning and is not widely known- Denise Milner's father was a Tulsa, OK, police officer at the time his daughter was murdered.

I am wondering very strongly if she was targeted. Maybe this started out as a racial hate crime or maybe there had been contact/ anger on the perp's part against Police Officer Milner.

I did not know the family profile until last night. I have cross- referenced the info and her race and her father's career are factual.
I have wondered if Officer Milner had any contact with G. Hart, or if Hart isn't the perp, with the unknown perp.. or if he had somehow stood out in Hart's mind during either his arrest for the 2 rapes or during the search for Hart.. (Officer Milner probably was too young to have been involved in the double abduction and rape case against Hart, but one really never knows).. MAYBE D.D. Millner was sent " away to camp" because of a direct threat to the family's safety... Hart was a very trained tracker and lived in a cave a short distance from the camp intermittantly for what is believed to a significant period of time. He came and went as he pleased with help of fellow Cherokee nation members.

Whoever did this harassed the older teen camp counselors for weeks prior to it opening that season.
The note placed in the doughnut box which said " 4 girls will die", stealing of some of the counselors' underwear during their orientation before the campers arrived, and several acts of vandalism which was not usual for Camp Scott.
Most startling of all, and something which I believe was done by the murderer was the life- sized effigy with graphic simulated male genitalia found hanging from a large tree and which was in full view of all the little girls on the first night of camp.

SeekingJana

01-04-2012, 08:00 PM

I bought the book " The Eighth Tent" today.
Although according to the Girl Scout system, it was the 7th tent...
I'm hoping the book will shed some light on the Milner family and anything known about Mr. Milner's potential prior experience with Gerald Hart.

IF I were writing a book about this case, you'd better believe I would look at any possible interactions between the policeman, the escaped rapist, and the little black girl in an otherwise all- white GS camp that year who was, IMO, the perp's main targeted victim.

Pensfan

01-04-2012, 08:19 PM

Diane Denise Milner ( sometimes referred to as Diane, sometimes as Denise) was an African- American girl. There is an interview with on of the camp counselors who lived through this, who actually found the zipped up sleeping bags and realized why they were so heavy-- there was a little girl's body inside each one.

She answered questions on an old forum which I was able to access but did not save the link to. This counselor's first name is Carla.
She was asked by the other posters if it was unusual for an AA camper to be at Camp Scott in that era.
She said that the little Milner girl's presence was extremely unusual for that time and place, and that she was welcomed and socialized well with the other girls.

One last thing which COULD have some meaning and is not widely known- Denise Milner's father was a Tulsa, OK, police officer at the time his daughter was murdered.

I am wondering very strongly if she was targeted. Maybe this started out as a racial hate crime or maybe there had been contact/ anger on the perp's part against Police Officer Milner.

I did not know the family profile until last night. I have cross- referenced the info and her race and her father's career are factual.
I have wondered if Officer Milner had any contact with G. Hart, or if Hart isn't the perp, with the unknown perp.. or if he had somehow stood out in Hart's mind during either his arrest for the 2 rapes or during the search for Hart.. (Officer Milner probably was too young to have been involved in the double abduction and rape case against Hart, but one really never knows).. MAYBE D.D. Millner was sent " away to camp" because of a direct threat to the family's safety... Hart was a very trained tracker and lived in a cave a short distance from the camp intermittantly for what is believed to a significant period of time. He came and went as he pleased with help of fellow Cherokee nation members.

Whoever did this harassed the older teen camp counselors for weeks prior to it opening that season.
The note placed in the doughnut box which said " 4 girls will die", stealing of some of the counselors' underwear during their orientation before the campers arrived, and several acts of vandalism which was not usual for Camp Scott.
Most startling of all, and something which I believe was done by the murderer was the life- sized effigy with graphic simulated male genitalia found hanging from a large tree and which was in full view of all the little girls on the first night of camp.
First sentence was BBM.
Not true. I was an Oklahoma Girl Scout camper in the same type of tents a decade earlier than these murders. There was always a racially mixed group with whites, blacks, and Native Americans. Girl Scout meetings were usually held directly after school and the cost to participate was free, so many girls participated. The cost of camping was paid for by cookie sales and therefore, everyone was able to go camping.

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I am still hoping to find information about the Camp Scott caretaker's son who was supposedly a pedophile. Has anyone found info on this? TIA

Pensfan

01-05-2012, 07:00 PM

I tried to find the posts about Terry Martin on aetv.com, but they must have been moved. Did anyone else find these posts on aetv? This has interesting info. about him:
http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/topic/454#.TwY44pjN7zI

Pensfan

01-05-2012, 07:16 PM

There is a map 3/4 of the way down on this page. I never knew this, but the Kiowa tent area sat really close to the parking lot. :( Any psychopath could have easily driven in there (or walked) and attacked that tent in the darkness. There was a large sign stating "Camp Scott" to notify everyone of the little girls' campground area. Ugh.

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/topic/385/t/Camp-Scott-Photos.html#.TwY8JJjN7zI

EveDallas

01-07-2012, 11:16 AM

I believe that I read in some news articles that Gary Hart the suspected killer of the Girl Scouts Murders DNA did not match what was found on the girls, but did anybody ever question the girls who was in around the tent where the girls were found about any of the male staff ( if there were any working there that day) who was paying any interested to any of the girls.

HoneyWest

01-07-2012, 08:25 PM

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I do not know about the rest of the units, but Denise was the only African American child in the Kiowa unit.

HoneyWest

01-10-2012, 04:31 AM

I bought the book " The Eighth Tent" today.
Although according to the Girl Scout system, it was the 7th tent...
I'm hoping the book will shed some light on the Milner family and anything known about Mr. Milner's potential prior experience with Gerald Hart.

Seeking Jana, have you had a chance to read much of the book "Tent Number 8"? If so, what are your thoughts on it? I read it a few months ago and it is a very good book, but if the reader is expecting new theories, speculation, or exploration of a possible connection between Officer Milner and Gene Hart, they will be disappointed.

It is, however an extremely well-documented presentation of the legalities of the case and the trial. You get good insight on the personalities and experience of all the players in law enforcement, local politics, attorneys, and witnesses. I thought I knew just about everything there is to know about this case, but since we know so little about the actual trial preparations, I did gain some insight.

The author, Gloyd McCoy titled the book "Tent Number Eight" because if you look at the setup of the Kiowa unit, there's the counselor's tent plus the 7 tents housing the girls. Also, the tent which housed Lori, Denise, and Michele was the furthest away from the counselor's tent; it was the most secluded and had only 3 girls inside rather than the rest which each had 4.

Many years ago I read "Someone Cry For The Children" by brothers Mike and Dick Wilkerson, who both worked on the case as members of the OSBI. As you know, it's very hard to find without paying a huge price, but if you get a chance to read it, I think you'll find it very interesting. They tell the story mostly from law enforcement's point of view, detailed descriptions of the intense search for Gene Hart, and even delve into thier attempts at understanding the Cherokee culture, since they could not understand why the local Cherokee community were so protective of Hart and how he could possibly evade them continually. The book describes how they were able to meet with an actual medicine man just to see if it was possible that Hart was capable of using medicine himself, was he actually capable to "shape shifting", etc. (Yes, even now in today's world I know several full-bloods who believe 100% in shape shifting, among other things that white man would consider crazy). Anyway, to me, this book really pushes the theory that Gene Leroy Hart was the person who committed these horrendous crimes and that he did it alone. He was tried, acquitted, then dropped dead. They believed they had the right man, so not much effort has been put into really looking closely for other suspects, IMO.

SeekingJana

01-11-2012, 12:02 PM

Seeking Jana, have you had a chance to read much of the book "Tent Number 8"? If so, what are your thoughts on it? I read it a few months ago and it is a very good book, but if the reader is expecting new theories, speculation, or exploration of a possible connection between Officer Milner and Gene Hart, they will be disappointed.

It is, however an extremely well-documented presentation of the legalities of the case and the trial. You get good insight on the personalities and experience of all the players in law enforcement, local politics, attorneys, and witnesses. I thought I knew just about everything there is to know about this case, but since we know so little about the actual trial preparations, I did gain some insight.

The author, Gloyd McCoy titled the book "Tent Number Eight" because if you look at the setup of the Kiowa unit, there's the counselor's tent plus the 7 tents housing the girls. Also, the tent which housed Lori, Denise, and Michele was the furthest away from the counselor's tent; it was the most secluded and had only 3 girls inside rather than the rest which each had 4.

Many years ago I read "Someone Cry For The Children" by brothers Mike and Dick Wilkerson, who both worked on the case as members of the OSBI. As you know, it's very hard to find without paying a huge price, but if you get a chance to read it, I think you'll find it very interesting. They tell the story mostly from law enforcement's point of view, detailed descriptions of the intense search for Gene Hart, and even delve into thier attempts at understanding the Cherokee culture, since they could not understand why the local Cherokee community were so protective of Hart and how he could possibly evade them continually. The book describes how they were able to meet with an actual medicine man just to see if it was possible that Hart was capable of using medicine himself, was he actually capable to "shape shifting", etc. (Yes, even now in today's world I know several full-bloods who believe 100% in shape shifting, among other things that white man would consider crazy). Anyway, to me, this book really pushes the theory that Gene Leroy Hart was the person who committed these horrendous crimes and that he did it alone. He was tried, acquitted, then dropped dead. They believed they had the right man, so not much effort has been put into really looking closely for other suspects, IMO.

I just watched the complete video of " Someone Cry For The Children" and
I'm reading " Tent Number Eight" right now. I am a bit dismayed by the lack of proper proofreading. There are many errors in the book...
I REALLY don't care how many objections the defense team made vs. the number the prosecution made, and that's about all I am getting out of the book. It is very dry reading for me.
One thing I picked up on early was a very strong hint from the author that he believes a female camp counselor was or could have been involved.
Did you pick up on the accusatory statements? He criticizes one teenaged camp leader more than he ever does Hart. She is the same counselor who was filmed in " Someone Cry For the Children", and she is the same person who said it was very unusual for an AA child to be at Camp Scott in that time period. 3 friends of Denise's were supposed to go with her, but backed out at the last moment.

I can find NO HINT of any connection between Officer Milner and Hart. I don't think there is one. I can't even find out anything about Milner as an officer for Tulsa PD other than that he was one. Denise's mother is the one interviewed from the Milner family. The other 2 girls' have both parents speaking of them.

I cannot find a print copy of " Someone Cry For the Children" but the excellent ( IMO) video is on You Tube in 6 parts. I was impressed with the interviews and very long narratives done by Johnny Cash and Dale Robertson with scenery from the area..

DNA from all 3 girls' bodies and from Gene Leroy Hart has PROVED that Hart was there. His semen DNA was found in all 3 victims. Positive matches. No way around that. He said it couldn't be his because he had a vasectomy. The vasectomy was not performed correctly-- he was still producing sperm.
Hart did it. I don't know if he was the lone perp. for certain, but I know he was there and I know he should have been found guilty if the State had proved their case. I don't think the DNA testing was advanced enough to prove beyond a doubt that he was the rapist at the time of the trial. A ratio could be given, but it must not have been understood by the jury in 78.
IMO,the Cherokee Nation should have had enough respect for US Justice to leave their shapeshifting theories and their " medicine" out of the investigation and trial. They played mind games with some OSBI agents who were Native American!!

SeekingJana

01-11-2012, 12:06 PM

I believe that I read in some news articles that Gary Hart the suspected killer of the Girl Scouts Murders DNA did not match what was found on the girls, but did anybody ever question the girls who was in around the tent where the girls were found about any of the male staff ( if there were any working there that day) who was paying any interested to any of the girls.

Yes, Hart's semen was DNA matched to that found inside the 3 girls.
You can find the updated info on You Tube on " Someone Cry For The Children", which was produced by the Discovery channel and aired sometime in the late 80s. DNA testing had advanced to the point that they could definitely say that Hart was the attacker.

SeekingJana

01-11-2012, 12:22 PM

First sentence was BBM.
Not true. I was an Oklahoma Girl Scout camper in the same type of tents a decade earlier than these murders. There was always a racially mixed group with whites, blacks, and Native Americans. Girl Scout meetings were usually held directly after school and the cost to participate was free, so many girls participated. The cost of camping was paid for by cookie sales and therefore, everyone was able to go camping.

Was Denise the only black child at that camp? If so, this would have been unusual from my experiences and my sister's experiences with Girl Scout camping.

I am still hoping to find information about the Camp Scott caretaker's son who was supposedly a pedophile. Has anyone found info on this? TIA
One of the camp counselors from Camp Scott in 1977 who was zeroed in on, Carla Wilhite, has specifically said that the presence of AA children was very unusual at Camp Scott during that time period. No other ethnic minority was addressed.
Maybe she was wrong. I don't know, as I wasn't there but she was. I tend to think there were strong racial differences in participation by geographical region at that time.

Denise was supposed to have 3 close girl friends accompany her. The other girls backed out at the last moment. I think that adds some clarity as to her motivation for going... She was going with her friends. And ended up alone, wrote a very sad letter to her parents that night about wanting to come home, and then was killed a few hours later.

After seeing Denise's mother talk about her on the video of " Someone Cry For The Children" I am convinced that Denise's father had no LE involvement with Hart.
I had wondered, but I don't think there was any contact with the escaped rapist in his police work.

Hart's DNA has been conclusively proven to be that of the rapist. Again, reference is " Someone Cry For The Children".
As to whether he had an accomplice or not, if he did, either the 2nd person left no DNA, or it was not preserved correctly, or the accomplice had a minimal role.

" Tent Number Eight" describes the blindfold/ gag combos which were placed on the girls. They are almost identical to what was used in the case of the 2 women Hart abducted and raped in 1966. They seem unusual in construction to me. I think this is a closed case by default as the perp died on June 4, 1979.

DNA doesn't lie. No one planted his DNA, IMO. Hart was born 1 mile from the camp and at the time of the murders, his mother lived 2 miles away. He spent years hiding with family and other Cherokee after his jail escape in 1973.
I think LE had the right man. They just didn't have the technology to prove the DNA science " beyond a reasonable doubt" to the jury. But, the proof WAS there and has been validated.

In my mind, the very tragic case is closed.

SeekingJana

01-11-2012, 12:27 PM

The early case info that Hart's DNA was a "partial match" ( never that it was NOT a match) has been further clarified through the years.
The testing done for trial was done at the beginning of DNA testing, in 1978.

The source of the DNA was semen. In the late 80's, with advanced testing capabilities, it was conclusively matched to Hart and ONLY Hart.

My last post on the case. It was solved through science years ago.

wfgodot

01-11-2012, 01:43 PM

Sorry. But "solving" of this case has never been done, "through science" or through other evidence. The DNA has not been matched to "Hart and only Hart." To say that it has is to shed false light on this tragedy. Would that it did - that knowledge would bring a sense of justice having been attained for the girls. But it does not.

nomoresorrow

01-12-2012, 01:25 AM

For those who haven't watched the documentary "Someone Cry for the Children", it's available (in full) on you tube (1-6): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=UlWcMrPDBsE

The hair found on the duct tape binding Denise Milner's hands was a perfect match to Hart, the "unusual" sperm matched Hart and tests verified that, in fact, his vasectomy HAD NOT taken, and, while it may not be as precise as testing on a viable sample is today, the DNA match was 12/100,000 - I'd say that those factors, combined with the other evidence found, was/is enough to convince me that GRH was there and was absolutely involved. When you watch the documentary and listen to the account of one of Hart's past rape victims (one of the pregnant females he raped), her account is stunningly chilling, especially her description of the sound(s) he made while raping her... JMO~

HoneyWest

01-24-2012, 07:37 AM

The source of the DNA was semen. In the late 80's, with advanced testing capabilities, it was conclusively matched to Hart and ONLY Hart.

My last post on the case. It was solved through science years ago.

BBM - Nope, not true at all. In May 2007 the lab which tested the semen from the anal swab and the pillowcase released a report stating that no DNA evidence was obtained from the evidence. In July 2007, another lab, Sorenson Forensics conducted analysis on the sperm and the pillowcase. No results could be obtained from the sperm, but a degraded partial DNA profile was obtained from the stained pillowcase, and that DNA profile was genetically typed as female! The OSBI then conducted analysis of the victims' parent's DNA against the partial female profile and concluded that the DNA from the pillowcase could not be excluded as being from one of the victims.

Now, there's nothing left to test. To this day, this case has not been solved, through science or other any other means. There has been no closure for the families and friends of the victims.

HoneyWest

01-24-2012, 08:42 AM

I'm reading " Tent Number Eight" right now. I am a bit dismayed by the lack of proper proofreading. There are many errors in the book...
I REALLY don't care how many objections the defense team made vs. the number the prosecution made, and that's about all I am getting out of the book. It is very dry reading for me.
Is that all you got out of the book? Some typos and number of objections? Granted, the book does not go into gory details or wild speculations, but gave a never-before public description of the trial and witness testimony. The POINT of the author's (who is an Oklahoma attorney) notations on objections was to present errors made by the state - several times they should have objected, but didn't, which allowed the defense more leeway. This is huge. Had the State been as aggressive as the defense in their objections, the entire trial would have most likely taken a very different turn, possibly a conviction of Hart.

One thing I picked up on early was a very strong hint from the author that he believes a female camp counselor was or could have been involved.
Did you pick up on the accusatory statements? He criticizes one teenaged camp leader more than he ever does Hart. She is the same counselor who was filmed in " Someone Cry For the Children", and she is the same person who said it was very unusual for an AA child to be at Camp Scott in that time period.
Did we read the same book? No, I did not pick up on any suggestion by Gloyd that a camp counselor was involved. I know who you are speaking of...her name is Carla, she was the youngest counselor in the unit, and Denise was the only African American child in the Kiowa unit. BTW, her name wasn't Diane Denise Milner, it was Doris Denise Milner and she went by the name "Denise".

I was impressed with the interviews and very long narratives done by Johnny Cash and Dale Robertson with scenery from the area..

I own a copy of the DVD "Someone Cry for the Children"; I've practically memorized it. It's a good source of information, but by no means is it as comprehensive as the book, not should it be considered the end-all source for information on this case. It was filmed many years ago and much has happened since then. The scenery from the area you mention does not in any way look that way today. I remember how it looked in '77 but now I'd probably get lost in those woods.

IMO,the Cherokee Nation should have had enough respect for US Justice to leave their shapeshifting theories and their " medicine" out of the investigation and trial. They played mind games with some OSBI agents who were Native American!!

US Justice? Umm..this wasn't a US federal trial, it was a state trial. Also, the Cherokee Nation had nothing to do with getting involved in the investigation. Three OSBI agents were intent on investigating the native folklore they had heard of - the shapeshifting and possible protection of Hart. Harvey was the OSBI agent who is full-blood Cherokee and it was through him that they finally convinced a reluctant medicine man to even talk to them or help them. In the documentary, he's called "Crying Wolf", but that's not his name and he insisted upon anonymity.

As a former Girl Scout, a former Camp Scott camper, and a member of the Cherokee Tribe, I'd be very interested to hear how you interpreted anything in the book or the documentary as the entire Cherokee Nation (there are a LOT of us!) was playing mind games with the OSBI. But I guess I won't, since the case is closed for you and you've posted your last post in this thread.

kemo

01-24-2012, 01:04 PM

I'm confused about this DNA issue. There was NO DNA comparison in 1978. Forensic DNA comparison only began in the late 1980's. The original forensic DNA comparison available in the late 1980's was LFLP. This was quite slow and expensive and it was limited to fairly large samples of biological material. If there had been any decomposition or contamination, it was often unusable of only a limited points of comparison would be available. This is genially where the concept of a "partial match" comes up. The more points that could be compared, the smaller the pool of people in any given population that would be a match.
I have read that only 12 in 100,000 people, including Hart were a match for this sample. Technically, this would mean 125 men in Oklahoma would match this sample. If Hart was identified from a cold hit on, say a list of sex offenders, this would noteworthy but not rock solid proof. The fact that Hart was the prime suspect with other, abet circumstantial, evidence against him is quite compelling. This comes pretty close to "beyond all reasonable doubt".

A problem with this analysis is that the "12 in 100,000 figure is based on the public at large, not any particular pool of people. Hart was pure-blood Cherokee. This combinationation of genetic markers might be very common (or very rare) in the pool of Cherokee men. Without that information, we cannot really judge the relevance of the DNA evidence.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-24-2012, 02:51 PM

Ok, so now that I am totally confused by rather or not the DNA was matched to Hart, which causes me to ask the question, how did they get a non degraded sample of his sperm, so many years after his death? I am not sure one can really compare sounds made during sex with any degree of accuracy, especially since in the second instance nobody truly heard the clear sounds.
I am not sure at this point a fair conclusion can be drawn, as so much as the evidence has been tainted by a HART DID IT, NO DOUBT attitude.I saw nothing scientifically that lead me to that conclusion. A couple questions that nags at me though, WHY was that tent so far away from the others? WHY was the tent that was furthest away from the others the only one without a camp counselor in it? That almost makes it appear someone set that tent apart to be more easily targeted. I also have to agree with the...no knowledgeable woodsman would be walking through that type of underbrush, with the snakes known to the area, in tennis shoes....sorry, but knowledgeable woods woman here....
However, I did see enough to know this was a horrible disaster and my heart goes out to these families.

sayd

01-24-2012, 03:07 PM

Yes, Hart's semen was DNA matched to that found inside the 3 girls.
You can find the updated info on You Tube on " Someone Cry For The Children", which was produced by the Discovery channel and aired sometime in the late 80s. DNA testing had advanced to the point that they could definitely say that Hart was the attacker.

Thank you for posting this. I just watched the whole thing. It was really worth watching. I'd say with the DNA results obtained 12 years later, this is a closed case. Sometimes our justice system just doesn't get it right.

wfgodot

01-24-2012, 03:30 PM

Arguing the DNA "evidence" "proves Hart did it" is remarkably wrong-headed, as it does nothing of the sort. Also, Hart was found innocent of charges by a murder jury - the best evidence that he was, in fact, not guilty of the crime.

Betty P

01-24-2012, 04:41 PM

Arguing the DNA "evidence" "proves Hart did it" is remarkably wrong-headed, as it does nothing of the sort. Also, Hart was found innocent of charges by a murder jury - the best evidence that he was, in fact, not guilty of the crime.

In addition to the DNA evidence, there was also a great deal of circumstantial evidence. The evidence, some of which was very damning, from the rapes he committed on two Tulsa women was not allowed in the trial. The noises he made while attacking the women were similar to those heard by the camp counselor, as were the methods and types of bindings used and the habit of stealing prescription glasses from victims. Hart had poor vision and had the habit of stealing glasses during crimes so he could see what he was doing.

Had the jury known of his previous crimes, the evidence from them, and the similarities in his MO, they might have convicted him.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-24-2012, 05:36 PM

BBM - Nope, not true at all. In May 2007 the lab which tested the semen from the anal swab and the pillowcase released a report stating that no DNA evidence was obtained from the evidence. In July 2007, another lab, Sorenson Forensics conducted analysis on the sperm and the pillowcase. No results could be obtained from the sperm, but a degraded partial DNA profile was obtained from the stained pillowcase, and that DNA profile was genetically typed as female! The OSBI then conducted analysis of the victims' parent's DNA against the partial female profile and concluded that the DNA from the pillowcase could not be excluded as being from one of the victims.

Now, there's nothing left to test. To this day, this case has not been solved, through science or other any other means. There has been no closure for the families and friends of the victims.

But that was not so...no DNA was obtained from the evidence (SEE ABOVE QUOTE). How do you test NO DNA and get any match, let alone a total match. I'd love to see this case closed for the families, but that closure has to come honestly. This I know for certain, from experience.....maybe's and could be's give you no peace.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-24-2012, 05:51 PM

In addition to the DNA evidence, there was also a great deal of circumstantial evidence. The evidence, some of which was very damning, from the rapes he committed on two Tulsa women was not allowed in the trial. The noises he made while attacking the women were similar to those heard by the camp counselor, as were the methods and types of bindings used and the habit of stealing prescription glasses from victims. Hart had poor vision and had the habit of stealing glasses during crimes so he could see what he was doing.

Had the jury known of his previous crimes, the evidence from them, and the similarities in his MO, they might have convicted him.

I saw in the story Hart was wearing woman's glasses when captured. I did not however see that those glasses belonged to any of the girls. I still find the noise argument a bad one...simply because if a camp counselor heard those noises that well, surely she would have checked on the girls.....I mean who wouldn't? If you had a group of kids camping and you heard those noises, would you simply roll over and go back to sleep? I doubt it....I think you'd go take a head count...make sure all the kids were ok......I know i would anyhow. So that says to me she heard lite sounds that raised no concerns...not a good comparison. Also since NO DNA could be gathered off the evidence, any comparison was done with DNA partially degraded, and to use that to take a mans life....no I don't think that comparison is good either.
The fact that tent was intentionally placed the furthest away, and it was the only one with no counselor inside, still makes me think it was targeted. That took someone inside the camp. Did they know it would result in 3 murders.......doubtful.....but they knew something bad was gonna happen ...and they wanted that tent far enough away the others did not hear.

sayd

01-24-2012, 07:27 PM

Arguing the DNA "evidence" "proves Hart did it" is remarkably wrong-headed, as it does nothing of the sort. Also, Hart was found innocent of charges by a murder jury - the best evidence that he was, in fact, not guilty of the crime.

Bolded by me...I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. The Casey Anthony trial clarified that one for me.

The FBI DNA testing done 12 years after the murder showed that there were only 7800 people that could have done the crime, including Hart. So although it wasn't conclusive, it certainly limited the gene pool. Remember DNA testing was still in its infancy back then. The more recent testing 2007/08, said that the samples were too old to determine anything.

Spend the hour and watch "Someone Cry For The Children" on youtube.

My last post on this topic too.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-24-2012, 08:24 PM

I have watched the movie, and it can certainly tear your heart out. I don't see how this in any way resembles the Casey Antony case, and I would not have freed her either.
Had I been a member of the jury on the Hart case, then I may have seen or heard something to make me feel differently. Right now all I have to go by is what is posted here and on the different sites. Movies often are not the most reliable sources.
I agree this is a case many have disagreed on, and I can see why. So I guess someday maybe science will actually be able to tell us who did this terrible crime.
Until then, we can only go by what feels right to us...and I am sorry, but the circumstances of that tent really bothers me....

HoneyWest

01-25-2012, 12:16 AM

But that was not so...no DNA was obtained from the evidence (SEE ABOVE QUOTE). How do you test NO DNA and get any match, let alone a total match. I'd love to see this case closed for the families, but that closure has to come honestly. This I know for certain, from experience.....maybe's and could be's give you no peace.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that correctly. I meant that no DNA profile was obtained from that analysis.

HoneyWest

01-25-2012, 12:45 AM

Ok, so now that I am totally confused by rather or not the DNA was matched to Hart, which causes me to ask the question, how did they get a non degraded sample of his sperm, so many years after his death?

That was exactly the problem...the sperm samples they had were from one anal swab from one of the girls and one pillowcase. The reason the tests came back as inconclusive is because the samples were so degraded.

Here's an article which explains:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080625_12_A1_hFamil776146&r=876

A couple questions that nags at me though, WHY was that tent so far away from the others? WHY was the tent that was furthest away from the others the only one without a camp counselor in it? That almost makes it appear someone set that tent apart to be more easily targeted. I also have to agree with the...no knowledgeable woodsman would be walking through that type of underbrush, with the snakes known to the area, in tennis shoes....sorry, but knowledgeable woods woman here....
However, I did see enough to know this was a horrible disaster and my heart goes out to these families.

Well, the camp was set up back in the late 20's. I'm not sure when those particular tents were set up the way they were. They were kind of semi-permanent, set up on wooden bases which kept them off the ground. Actually, the tent #7 wasn't really that far from the others. The tents were in somewhat of a semi-circle, tent #7 just happened to be the last in the semi-circle and sat closest to the most wooded area. You're right in that it would have been the easiest tent to target for a sexual predator, because the killer could have disappeared into the woods without having to pass any other tents.

None of the girl's tents had camp counselors in them. The counselors shared their own tent, which was closest to tent #1 and the dining hall. There were 4 girls to a tent except for tent #7 which contained 3...Michele, Denise, and Lori.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-25-2012, 03:35 AM

Well, the camp was set up back in the late 20's. I'm not sure when those particular tents were set up the way they were. They were kind of semi-permanent, set up on wooden bases which kept them off the ground. Actually, the tent #7 wasn't really that far from the others. The tents were in somewhat of a semi-circle, tent #7 just happened to be the last in the semi-circle and sat closest to the most wooded area. You're right in that it would have been the easiest tent to target for a sexual predator, because the killer could have disappeared into the woods without having to pass any other tents.

None of the girl's tents had camp counselors in them. The counselors shared their own tent, which was closest to tent #1 and the dining hall. There were 4 girls to a tent except for tent #7 which contained 3...Michele, Denise, and Lori.
Right now it is 3:29 a, so I am not at my best. I do however remember reading on one of sites, which I will re-read once I get some sleep, something about this being the only tent with no adult.....don't quote me on that, until I find the actual wording they used.

Thank You for explaining the DNA thing to, but if a profile could not be made, then an exact match could not be made.I refuse also to accept the noise thing as evidence. If a counselor had heard noise loud enough to bother her, she would have surely taken a head count, even then. Since I take that to mean the noise was not loud enough to upset her, so certainly not loud enough to be confirmed as sexual.

I am sorry, I'd love to see this case have real closure...but I do know by experience, that means the I's dotted and the T's crossed, and so far that has not happened here.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-25-2012, 03:40 AM

DNA linked to 1977 case inconclusive

1 / 3Showing image 1 of 3
Families of three slain Girl Scouts still hope to one day know the truth.
By SARA PLUMMER World Staff Writer
Published: 6/25/2008 2:09 AM
Last Modified: 6/25/2008 2:23 AM

Families of three slain Girl Scouts still hope to one day know the truth.

PRYOR — More than 30 years after the murder of three Girl Scouts near Locust Grove, the victims' families still don't know for sure who killed them.

Mayes County District Attorney Gene Haynes announced Tuesday that DNA testing from the 1977 murders was ruled inconclusive. The physical evidence was too deteriorated to form a DNA profile, according to a statement from Haynes.

On June 13, 1977, 8-year-old Lori Farmer of Tulsa, 9-year-old Michelle Guse of Broken Arrow and 10-year-old Doris Milner of Tulsa were found slain at Camp Scott in Mayes County.

Gene Leroy Hart was tried for the killings, but he was acquitted in 1979. He later died while in prison on unrelated charges.

Bettye Milner, Doris' mother, said she was disappointed when she learned of the DNA results earlier this year.

"I'm a big 'CSI' fan. You see all this stuff on TV and the things they can do," Milner said. "I was hoping we would have conclusive results."

Sheri Farmer, Lori's mother, said she and her husband weren't surprised by the results, but are still hopeful.

"We still think in our lifetime we will know the answer, it just wasn't this time," Farmer said. "I still have hope. One day someone will come forward or they'll come up with new technology."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080625_12_A1_hFamil776146&r=876

See these families wantREAL answers with CONCLUSIVE results

sayd

01-25-2012, 09:00 AM

I have watched the movie, and it can certainly tear your heart out. I don't see how this in any way resembles the Casey Antony case, and I would not have freed her either.
Had I been a member of the jury on the Hart case, then I may have seen or heard something to make me feel differently. Right now all I have to go by is what is posted here and on the different sites. Movies often are not the most reliable sources.
I agree this is a case many have disagreed on, and I can see why. So I guess someday maybe science will actually be able to tell us who did this terrible crime.
Until then, we can only go by what feels right to us...and I am sorry, but the circumstances of that tent really bothers me....

It's NOT a movie, it is a documentary. It has pictures of the actual tents, interviews with the actual counselors, etc. Not sure where you got it was a movie?

Still_Seek_Answers

01-25-2012, 10:16 AM

Perhaps I looked at something different than what you were referring to. I will go over and take a look. However even documentaries are often shown in such a way to lead you to the conclusion they want you to make. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying Hart did not do it. As a family member who after 40 years still does not have a conclusive answer, I simply know exactly how these families feel.
These families want rock solid answers. All I am saying is the evidence I saw left me with several unanswered questions. I very much agree with what the family said in the interview, I hope someday they find the answers they seek to give them the peace they deserve.

sayd

01-25-2012, 12:16 PM

Perhaps I looked at something different than what you were referring to. I will go over and take a look. However even documentaries are often shown in such a way to lead you to the conclusion they want you to make. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying Hart did not do it. As a family member who after 40 years still does not have a conclusive answer, I simply know exactly how these families feel.
These families want rock solid answers. All I am saying is the evidence I saw left me with several unanswered questions. I very much agree with what the family said in the interview, I hope someday they find the answers they seek to give them the peace they deserve.

I agree with you on documentaries! On this documentary I did enjoy the diagrams of the camp, the pictures, and the interviews with the camp counselors, the investigators, and the parents of the 3 victims.

OT, but I wanted to add that I am sorry to hear about your family member. I can only imagine. When I was in high school a friend of mine's sister was murdered. We all knew who did it, but they couldn't prove it. About a year ago I was searching for information on that crime and found that the guy who we all knew killed her had killed someone else and was convicted of that murder. If only he would have been convicted of the first murder. I am sure, like you, there is still no full closure for my friend and her parents.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-25-2012, 01:43 PM

I agree with you on documentaries! On this documentary I did enjoy the diagrams of the camp, the pictures, and the interviews with the camp counselors, the investigators, and the parents of the 3 victims.

OT, but I wanted to add that I am sorry to hear about your family member. I can only imagine. When I was in high school a friend of mine's sister was murdered. We all knew who did it, but they couldn't prove it. About a year ago I was searching for information on that crime and found that the guy who we all knew killed her had killed someone else and was convicted of that murder. If only he would have been convicted of the first murder. I am sure, like you, there is still no full closure for my friend and her parents.

First let me say Thank You for your kind words. Second, I am sorry for your friend and her family.It is cases like that one that keeps us fighting for stricter laws. The serial killer who killed my sister(as far as we know) actually killed girls while he was out on bail. Thank heavens now murder charges mean no bail. Sadly that gives little comfort to the families already affected.
They have my prayers. While we are relatively certain which serial killer took my sister, there is no comfort in that.
That is why I feel such empathy for the families of these girls. A detective who works on my sisters case said it best....HE said, it's the pain, the pain is as deep as in a fresh wound, and it does not matter if it has been thirty years. HE is very correct, and I just feel so terrible for these families .I feel even worse knowing the science let them down. I really hope and pray the science can soon give them an answer, they deserve the closure.....they deserve the peace. I did watch the documentary, I am not sure what I watched first time, I must have been half asleep. I still have so many more questions than answers. I understand why the tent was put there, since that is where the "floor"was, but I still don't know why the floor was there....I have to stop and remind myself, back then we still had an age of innocence and people did not have to look for monsters around every corner.......and one certainly can't blame people for that........
God be with you and them

kemo

01-25-2012, 02:42 PM

I saw “Someone Cry for the Children", on You Tube; a "must see" for anyone who wants understand the case. It the case was circumstantial and it really wasn't all that strong. It's too bad those items belonging to the camp counselor weren't found on the initial search. They were good evidence but became suspected as "planted evidence" due to the manner they were found. The prosecutions biggest mistake was bringing it to trial at all. Hart had a long prison term to serve. They shouldn't have been in any hurry.

If the analysis of the DNA test was Valid, it pretty convincing that Hart did it. Forensic DNA at the time (the late 80's) was still in its infancy and interpretation wasn't quite as clear as it would be now. Any advocate for Hart's innocence (or someone else's guilt) ought to be able to obtain the actual test result and review the determination

Still_Seek_Answers

01-25-2012, 02:54 PM

I saw “Someone Cry for the Children", on You Tube; a "must see" for anyone who wants understand the case. It the case was circumstantial and it really wasn't all that strong. It's too bad those items belonging to the camp counselor weren't found on the initial search. They were good evidence but became suspected as "planted evidence" due to the manner they were found. The prosecutions biggest mistake was bringing it to trial at all. Hart had a long prison term to serve. They shouldn't have been in any hurry.

If the analysis of the DNA test was Valid, it pretty convincing that Hart did it. Forensic DNA at the time (the late 80's) was still in its infancy and interpretation wasn't quite as clear as it would be now. Any advocate for Hart's innocence (or someone else's guilt) ought to be able to obtain the actual test result and review the determination

Just to make myself clear, I am not an advocate for anyone's innocence or guilt.If anything I am an advocate for the family to have closure. I also agree that they should not have been in such a hurry to hold a trial. They did not have near enough evidence and time was on their side.
What I am saying is with no doubt, the inconclusive DNA tests simply gave the family's more questions than answers.Their was no need to rush the DNA testing either. DNA that was considered to degraded then might have given clearer answers today, but if it was truly degraded then it may not have. I do not think studying the tests now that were given then would really answer any questions, if it would give a clear answer now then I feel someone would already have released it.
I think these families deserve clear answers....they deserve peace.....they deserve closure.

Betty P

01-26-2012, 03:00 AM

Right now it is 3:29 a, so I am not at my best. I do however remember reading on one of sites, which I will re-read once I get some sleep, something about this being the only tent with no adult.....don't quote me on that, until I find the actual wording they used.

Thank You for explaining the DNA thing to, but if a profile could not be made, then an exact match could not be made.I refuse also to accept the noise thing as evidence. If a counselor had heard noise loud enough to bother her, she would have surely taken a head count, even then. Since I take that to mean the noise was not loud enough to upset her, so certainly not loud enough to be confirmed as sexual.

I am sorry, I'd love to see this case have real closure...but I do know by experience, that means the I's dotted and the T's crossed, and so far that has not happened here.

BBM

This may help you understand a little better. It's a link to the transcript of the preliminary hearing for the Hart trial, including the testimony of two of the Kiowa camp counselors. They explain a lot about their training and how the camps were set up, as well as the series of events leading up to the discovery of the girls. The counselors had their own tent where they slept. They were awakened on and off throughout the night, dealing with the girls and their first night at camp.

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/prelim1.pdf

Here's a link to a web page with several maps and overhead photos of the area

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/CAMP_MAPS.html

Hope this helps clear up a few things.

Still_Seek_Answers

01-26-2012, 04:14 PM

BBM

This may help you understand a little better. It's a link to the transcript of the preliminary hearing for the Hart trial, including the testimony of two of the Kiowa camp counselors. They explain a lot about their training and how the camps were set up, as well as the series of events leading up to the discovery of the girls. The counselors had their own tent where they slept. They were awakened on and off throughout the night, dealing with the girls and their first night at camp.

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/prelim1.pdf

Here's a link to a web page with several maps and overhead photos of the area

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/CAMP_MAPS.html

Hope this helps clear up a few things.

I understand they were awakened on and off with a group of excited kids, and the first night of a camping trip. Now, lets discuss what I do not understand....

I do not understand how the killer knew exactly which girl was most mature as they slept in their sleeping bags. He supposedly walked in, killed the two youngest girls with blunt force trauma, and removed the most mature of the three girls....How did he know, while they were still in sleeping bags, what girl slept where? How did he even know what tent she was in? Plus we still have the matter of the counselor who heard the noises.....what person on a camping trip with a bunch of girls, hears noises that are later described as sexual, and does not do a bed check? Nothing about the counselor hearing the noises makes any sense, unless one knew to expect such noises.
I do understand I see things probably different than people did back then, I have been raised in an era where I know the world is full of monsters....so I see ghosts everywhere....
All I am really saying is the families deserve proof positive....I know how badly they need it, to many things were rushed in these cases....I am not casting blame, I am stating facts....sad as that is, if they had waited to try him it may have turned out different.....if they had held off till DNA testing was more progressed, everyone saw it advancing, they waited that many years, why not a few more....
The families deserve peace and closure......they already have my prayers.

wfgodot

05-24-2012, 04:18 PM

I've recently come upon another couple copies of the book "Someone Cry for the Children" recently, if anyone's interested. While I don't agree with the authors' conclusions, I do find that that it - interestingly - seems to leave things in a bit of doubt about Gene Hart, if one reads between the lines.

Here's what I posted after reading the book a couple years back, for the first time in over 30 years:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Girl Scout Murders, 3 children 7, 8, 9 yrs old

SoSueMe

07-11-2012, 09:33 AM

*Bump*

Alice Bernadette

07-14-2012, 06:56 AM

I've just watched the documentary Someone Cry For the Children. Gene Leroy Hart does appear to be the culprit who did this. How many psychopathic rapists are running around in that area? He raped previously and the glasses (that is just too much of a coincidence). Poor innocent little girls and their families. This is an eerie case because of all the Indian spells and the medicine man. The jury must have believed that evidence was planted like the OJ Simpson case. It was lucky that he was sent back to prison for the previous rapes.

wyome

10-01-2012, 03:45 PM

Right now it is 3:29 a, so I am not at my best. I do however remember reading on one of sites, which I will re-read once I get some sleep, something about this being the only tent with no adult.....don't quote me on that, until I find the actual wording they used.

Thank You for explaining the DNA thing to, but if a profile could not be made, then an exact match could not be made.I refuse also to accept the noise thing as evidence. If a counselor had heard noise loud enough to bother her, she would have surely taken a head count, even then. Since I take that to mean the noise was not loud enough to upset her, so certainly not loud enough to be confirmed as sexual.

I am sorry, I'd love to see this case have real closure...but I do know by experience, that means the I's dotted and the T's crossed, and so far that has not happened here.

bbm

Hello. I've watched only 1/2 of the documentary, and super new to this tragic case. I just wanted to comment that I respectfully disagree about the noise the counselor hearing that night not bothering her. Of course hindsight is 20/20, and she was being interviewed after knowing three children were murdered, but her account to me seemed consistent with someone very much creeped out by the noise. She woke her fellow counselor, asked if she heard the noise, then stepped outside with a flashlight to see if she could see anything. I believe she even commented that she was not a stranger to horror movies (or something to that effect), and since the intermittent noises ceased, she retreated back inside.

I could be wrong, but she seemed to imply that she thought it was an animal of some sorts and it scared her and didn't want to approach it alone. Maybe she was hoping she scared it off by stepping outside with a light. The noises stopped. Maybe that's why she didn't feel the need to check the tents.

rob525

11-06-2012, 01:24 PM

My first impression is that the girls in the tent either thought the culprit was a counselor or he was in fact one of the counselors. THe hypothesis that first came to mind was that the older girl was the initial target for what ever reason. The guy lures the older girl, Doris Milner, from the tent but inadvertently wakes one or both of the others. Not being in immediate danger of discovery as all the girls think that he is just a counselor and are not alarmed. He knows that once Doris is discovered missing/murdered he will be identified as being in the tent by the younger girls. He returns to the tent and murders the other two. The only thing I can guess is that he had a plan to dispose of one body but three and a cleanup of the blood in the tent took too long. I would not be surprised if the counselor that discovered the bodies was seconds from seeing who the perpatrator was.

Ausgirl

11-10-2012, 07:32 AM

I've considered a lot of other theories, and even argued them.. but I find it incredibly hard to think of the following as sheerly coincidental, and am stunned beyond belief that Hart was acquitted when all of this points to his clear guilt:

- the perp, like Hart, had a thing for souvenirs - including women's glasses (a highly unusual fetish he'd displayed clearly to his former victims, and Hart was even wearing women's glasses when he was caught)

- the perp, like Hart (in his other crimes, which were not permitted mention at his trial), made 'weird noises' that sounded bestial

- the perp had DNA that matched 1 in 100,000 Native Americans. And it matched Hart.

- the photographs in the cave.. linking the cave (and thus some serious bit of evidence, including the newspaper) to Hart

...and so on. The man was clearly guilty. And how all those people made him out to be some kind of victim and a poster boy for racial discrimination after being convicted for abducting and raping, and then attempting to horribly and sadistically murder those two young pregnant girls just makes me despair for humanity in general.

Daisy1975

11-13-2012, 04:21 PM

I've considered a lot of other theories, and even argued them.. but I find it incredibly hard to think of the following as sheerly coincidental, and am stunned beyond belief that Hart was acquitted when all of this points to his clear guilt:

- the perp, like Hart, had a thing for souvenirs - including women's glasses (a highly unusual fetish he'd displayed clearly to his former victims, and Hart was even wearing women's glasses when he was caught)

- the perp, like Hart (in his other crimes, which were not permitted mention at his trial), made 'weird noises' that sounded bestial

- the perp had DNA that matched 1 in 100,000 Native Americans. And it matched Hart.

- the photographs in the cave.. linking the cave (and thus some serious bit of evidence, including the newspaper) to Hart

...and so on. The man was clearly guilty. And how all those people made him out to be some kind of victim and a poster boy for racial discrimination after being convicted for abducting and raping, and then attempting to horribly and sadistically murder those two young pregnant girls just makes me despair for humanity in general.

I couldn't have stated it better. Thank you for the post :)

wfgodot

11-13-2012, 04:45 PM

Regarding the DNA and c., see

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Girl Scout murders of 3 children (7, 8, 9 years old), 1977

As for referring to the Cherokee as "those people," in essence this duplicates the "blame the nearest Indian" strategy that resulted in Hart's arrest. Hart was never acclaimed by most to be any sort of "poster boy." Was there a concern he was being railroaded? Of course there was; one must understand the historical context.

Hart was found not guilty NOT because of who he was, but because there was a paucity of evidence produced by the prosecution. That he was a bad man is certain, based on convictions for the other crimes. That he killed these little girls is a very different thing. On the balance of evidence at a fair trial in a court of law he was found not guilty.

Ausgirl

11-14-2012, 04:29 PM

And the courts have never let a killer go free?

Not being snarky, just.. really. A murder site where glasses are notably moved around, with a main suspect with a fetish for .. women's glasses.

I honestly do not think it was 'blame the nearest Indian' as much as 'suspect the nearest violent rapist with a highly unusual fetish that fits the crime scene'.

And I think if his former crimes had been permitted to be disclosed in court, and the glasses thing was allowed into evidence, Hart would be have been put away.

KarlK

11-25-2012, 11:07 PM

Two days later, two tracking dogs were brought in from Pennsylvania to find the killer's path. Within a week, one died of heat prostration and the other was hit by a car.

I'm surprised no one started a conspiracy theory over the mysterious demise of these dogs.

More seriously, having set their sights on a suitably creepy suspect I have to wonder if the authorities took the time to properly investigate adult and teen supervisors present at the camp. Even though 1977 was not the 1950's it was still a time when scout leaders were considered just as angelic as Catholic clerics...

Alchemist

11-30-2012, 06:20 PM

I thought I heard that someone has evidence that it wasn't the indian that did the crime, and he knows who did. Has anyone heard of this?

Stella

12-02-2012, 11:39 AM

Back in February, an Oklahoma City TV station interviewed a producer/director named Russell who began making a film about the murders entitled "Candles"; he promised it would reveal who the killer was. However, I've not been able to find any reference to this film on IMDB.

Stella

12-02-2012, 11:53 AM

Further snooping shows that YT has the trailer for the movie "Candles" up and running; the film also has it's own website.

KateB

05-13-2013, 02:17 PM

Back in February, an Oklahoma City TV station interviewed a producer/director named Russell who began making a film about the murders entitled "Candles"; he promised it would reveal who the killer was. However, I've not been able to find any reference to this film on IMDB.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Candles/182385155147098

http://www.news9.com/story/20473989/rogers-county-convicted-murder-dies-in-state-prison

John Russell believes Myers was also the man who molested and murdered three girl scouts at a camp near Locust Grove in 1977.

He's making a movie called "Candles" about the murders.

Russell said Myers confessed to him when they were both in jail together in the late 1970s. Some argue Russell's criminal history takes away his credibility.

Karl Myers, 64, was convicted of killing Cindy Marzano in March of 1996.

Does anyone know why this thread is prefixed NY?