Mark Warner Resort Childcare Information

[blaize]

In the current Mark Warner Brochure on page 86 it states,
"The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when our nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to you."

[Current Brochure Link (http://www.markwarner.co.uk/e-brochure/summer07_ebrochure/default.aspx)]

Here in full;

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc279/blaize_030/MarkWarnerRoomlisteningDrop.jpg

You may download the brochure in pdf format from the Mark Warner resort site.

My question is this; If this room listening service is offered as a selling point by the Mark Warner resort (& other resorts also), then isn't it safe to assume that it's a common practice for parents staying at these resorts to leave their children alone with the presumption that the children will be safe?

The only difference I can see with the McCann's & their friends is that they elected to check on their children themselves.

[ThoughtFox]

Yes, but they have babysitters available, or the children could have been dropped off in a secure area and put to sleep there. They didn't have to be left alone all night.

I took that to mean older children could be checked on - not babies and toddlers. :(

On Ocean Club website:

http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun/portugal/ocean-club

Award-winning childcare

The Ocean Club offers a unique 'dine out' service. Simply get your little ones ready for bed and drop them off at our kids club. We'll watch over them whilst you go out and enjoy yourselves and you can pick them up on your way home.



I can understand them not wanting strangers in the rooms with their kids. But then, what's the point of leaving the doors unlocked? :doh:

And if Nannies go around checking on people, then why didn't someone notify a nanny employed by the resort when they supposedly heard Maddie crying and calling for her father on several occasions? That is sad.

I looked up some reviews of the place on TripAdvisor, and this is what I found about the childcare:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g189117-d229314-r5835313-Ocean_Club_Luz-Lagos_Algarve.html

We stayed at the Ocean Club with Mark Warner. The child care was excellent, and the apartment good, the food however was terrible. Both the Millenium and Tapas restaurants disappointed in terms of choice and quality. Other guests who had previously stayed with Mark Warner in other resorts stated that the food quality was far below that which they normally experienced. Additionally the Millenium was a 10 minute walk from most of the apartments along roads, which was really too far for most people with children to go for breakfast, as a consequence most families with kids did not bother. Would I go with Mark Warner again? Yes I would, for the child care and sports facilities . . .

On the plus side, our kids had a great time and the MW nannies were superb.

We booked the Ocean Club on a last minute deal through Mark Warner and were very impressed. We took our 9 month old son on his first trip abroad and were a little nervous but we couldn't really have asked for a better resort and accommodation. We stayed at the back of the resort and it was a little walk to the beach but we spent most of the time around the pool.
. . . The Mark Warner staff were superb. The childcare facilities were great and when our son was ill they couldn't have done more to help.


And here's an article that specifically mentions how good the nannies were for kids there, even if everything else isn't perfect:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/travel/2007/04/21/etalgarve121.xml

But what really made the clubs such a success for them, and what must be the secret of Mark Warner's popularity, was the dedication of the indefatigable nannies and the sunkissed young men (with names such as Will and Olly) who run the waterfront and tennis activities.

In a world of depressingly bad service, their energy, enthusiasm and cheerfulness made everything seem possible. The set-up in Praia de Luz was particularly appealing to teenage guests, who could spread their wings and dip in and out of the various activities and hostelries in the village.

. . . as far as we were concerned, the venture was a success. After two weeks, I was thoroughly rested and fit. And the children were distraught at leaving Praia de Luz and the nannies they had grown so fond of. Several weeks later, their conversations were still peppered with happy reminiscences of their days spent in the care of Natalie, Becky, Lucy, Chloe and Laura.




That's alot of Nannies! ;)

And finally, this article is the official statement of the Mark Warner people about what the McCann family did not request in the way of nannies:

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=18787

The Mark Warner website states: “For you to relax on holiday, you want to know your children are in expert hands, being cared for in a happy safe environment. That’s why all our nannies are fully trained by us either in the UK or at the resort, are all English-speaking and the majority hold a DCE, NNEB, NVQ or equivalent qualification.”

According to the company’s website, extra baby-sitting can be arranged in resort through the Childcare Manager at 12 to 15 euros per hour.

The Resident spoke to John Hill, operations manager for Mark Warner at Ocean Club, who said the parents went for dinner at a tapas restaurant in the resort while the children Madeleine and two-year-old twins, Amelie and Sean, were asleep in their accommodation.

John Hill said: “They had not requested the dining out service, a child minding service which allows parents to enjoy a meal while their children are being looked after by qualified personnel.”

While this service is available at the resort, the parents decided to check on the children at regular half hourly intervals themselves.


I believe that if Nannies were available, then children that young should have had one. It's not as if they had an older sister or brother there to watch out for them. And the parents were too far away to hear anything, so I don't think it was safe.

[blaize]

Yes, but they have babysitters available, or the children could have been dropped off in a secure area and put to sleep there. They didn't have to be left alone all night.

<Respectfully Snipped>

I believe that if Nannies were available, then children that young should have had one. It's not as if they had an older sister or brother there to watch out for them. And the parents were too far away to hear anything, so I don't think it was safe.

Thank you for replying ThoughtFox. The point of my post though was not that it was good parenting or not that the children were left alone or that nannies were or were not available. My point was the room listening service was an option that some parents must obviously use, even with very young children.

I don't think I'd be comfortable leaving a baby or toddler alone at night but it seems to me that many posters here think that leaving children alone in the rooms while they slept was something out of the ordinary for the resort. I think the quote from their brochure proves that it's not, otherwise the resort wouldn't offer the service.

Thanks again for your well reasoned post.

[april4sky]

In the current Mark Warner Brochure on page 86 it states,
"The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when our nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to you."

[Current Brochure Link (http://www.markwarner.co.uk/e-brochure/summer07_ebrochure/default.aspx)]

Here in full;

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc279/blaize_030/MarkWarnerRoomlisteningDrop.jpg

You may download the brochure in pdf format from the Mark Warner resort site.

My question is this; If this room listening service is offered as a selling point by the Mark Warner resort (& other resorts also), then isn't it safe to assume that it's a common practice for parents staying at these resorts to leave their children alone with the presumption that the children will be safe?

The only difference I can see with the McCann's & their friends is that they elected to check on their children themselves.


This answers a question I have had about the baby sitting options at the Mark Warner resort.
I do believe it has been a common practice.
And it's possibly the reason why the McCanns haven't been charged with endangering their children
It doesn't suprise me that this service was on offer. We already knew it was offered at the Mark Warner resort in Grease.

Many Hotels also offer something similar. They have baby alarms that sound in reception so that parents who are in another part of the Hotel having a meal/drink can be summoned if their child wakes.

I am "not" saying I think it's right, and do not think it's a safe thing to do. Whether it's a holiday resort or a Hotel. Especially in this day and age.

I just hope now that this practice is no longer an option anywhere!!!

[blaize]

This answers a question I have had about the baby sitting options at the Mark Warner resort.
I do believe it has been a common practice.
And it's possibly the reason why the McCanns haven't been charged with endangering their children
It doesn't suprise me that this service was on offer. We already knew it was offered at the Mark Warner resort in Grease.

Many Hotels also offer something similar. They have baby alarms that sound in reception so that parents who are in another part of the Hotel having a meal/drink can be summoned if their child wakes.

I am "not" saying I think it's right, and do not think it's a safe thing to do. Whether it's a holiday resort or a Hotel. Especially in this day and age.

I just hope now that this practice is no longer an option anywhere!!!

Thank you for posting april4sky.

I think we both understand why people are so angry at the McCann's for leaving the children alone but the Mark Warner Child Care info does seem to indicate that it was a fairly common practice to leave children in their rooms and have a nanny check on them, other wise the resort would not offer the service.

Actually it makes my skin crawl to think what could happen to small children waking up alone in a strange place so I couldn't agree more with the last part of your post.

[Shazza]

Thank you for posting april4sky.

I think we both understand why people are so angry at the McCann's for leaving the children alone but the Mark Warner Child Care info does seem to indicate that it was a fairly common practice to leave children in their rooms and have a nanny check on them, other wise the resort would not offer the service.

Actually it makes my skin crawl to think what could happen to small children waking up alone in a strange place so I couldn't agree more with the last part of your post.
Maybe it was a service they offered because they thought it was necessary for the safety of children, so their parents could go out for dinner without them, it seems like a double edged sword to me, the service was required because it was common practice to leave children alone, or the service was required because it was unsafe for children to be left alone.

[blaize]

Maybe it was a service they offered because they thought it was necessary for the safety of children, so their parents could go out for dinner without them, it seems like a double edged sword to me, the service was required because it was common practice to leave children alone, or the service was required because it was unsafe for children to be left alone.

Hey Shazza,

Actually I don't see the two things as being mutually exclusive but the service was offered as an option not a requirement between the hours of 8pm until midnight. If it was offered as a safety requirement surely it would need to be available after midnight too for parents who might stay out later?

[Shazza]

Hey Shazza,

Actually I don't see the two things as being mutually exclusive but the service was offered as an option not a requirement between the hours of 8pm until midnight. If it was offered as a safety requirement surely it would need to be available after midnight too for parents who might stay out later?
I have to disagree blaize, the parents brought their children away for a family holiday, so therefore there are responsibilities as parents to look after your children, they were put in the creche for most of everyday, and then left alone at night, I think with children that young you would want to be home by midnight anyway.

[blaize]

I have to disagree blaize, the parents brought their children away for a family holiday, so therefore there are responsibilities as parents to look after your children, they were put in the creche for most of everyday, and then left alone at night, I think with children that young you would want to be home by midnight anyway.

Oh absolutely Shazza, but again the purpose of the first post in this thread is not about the rights or wrongs of leaving the children alone or not but about the fact that the service is offered at all and my presumption that it was offered because resort visitors availed of it, again leading me to surmise that the McCann's child care arrangements were not as unusual as some poster's seem to think.

[ThoughtFox]

But I haven't seen anywhere that the children who were "checked on" by nannies were as young as the McCann children. That is my problem with letting them off the hook just because they "checked."

You can see in my post there was an option for leaving small children with a secure group where they could sleep if they wanted to. I understand why it would be better for them to sleep in their own rooms, but with an unlocked door?

Again, for older children (say age 10 and up), the nanny coming around to check might be a good thing. But for small children it's not the best option. I think a stay-in babysitter would have been better. I'm sure they could have afforded that.

In my state it is unlawful for children under the age of ten years old to be left alone. Of course people break that law all the time, but that doesn't make it acceptable to me.

[Shazza]

Oh absolutely Shazza, but again the purpose of the first post in this thread is not about the rights or wrongs of leaving the children alone or not but about the fact that the service is offered at all and my presumption that it was offered because resort visitors availed of it, again leading me to surmise that the McCann's child care arrangements were not as unusual as some poster's seem to think.
I see your point but my point was to say that because Portugal was not a safe place to leave children alone, they provided these services so what happened to Madelaine would not have happened if those services were used. I am not focusing here on the McCanns leaving their kids alone, I saying that the babysitting services were there for a reason, that being it is unsafe in Portugal to leave children unattended, as there have been posts saying that Pedophilia is quite rampant in those parts.

[blaize]

I see your point but my point was to say that because Portugal was not a safe place to leave children alone, they provided these services so what happened to Madelaine would not have happened if those services were used. I am not focusing here on the McCanns leaving their kids alone, I saying that the babysitting services were there for a reason, that being it is unsafe in Portugal to leave children unattended, as there have been posts saying that Pedophilia is quite rampant in those parts.

Ah I think I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the incidence of paedophilia is any higher in Portugal than it is in any other part of Europe so I'm not sure that would have played a major part in the decision making process of the resort management or visitors.

As a previous poster on this thread pointed out the listening service is also offered in the Greek & other companies resort's & as yet we haven't heard of any confirmed paedophile attacks or abductions from those resorts so unless your point is that the Mark Warner resort in Portugal offered these services specifically because of those fears then I'm afraid your logic is a bit over my head.

Sorry about that, but it often happens to me lol.

[Shazza]

Ah I think I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the incidence of paedophilia is any higher in Portugal than it is in any other part of Europe so I'm not sure that would have played a major part in the decision making process of the resort management or visitors.

As a previous poster on this thread pointed out the listening service is also offered in the Greek & other companies resort's & as yet we haven't heard of any confirmed paedophile attacks or abductions from those resorts so unless your point is that the Mark Warner resort in Portugal offered these services specifically because of those fears then I'm afraid your logic is a bit over my head.

Sorry about that, but it often happens to me lol.
Your not alone blaize, but it isnt just pedophilia, it is also to protect from kidnappers, accidents like choking or if the child is sick, or if the child wakes up and cries for Daddy as this has been stated, or if the child wakes up and wonders of and accidently gets killed, Madelaine was known to have wondered of before, knowing all these things are possible or have happened wouldnt you hire a babysitter or stay at home with your children.

[blaize]

Your not alone blaize, but it isnt just pedophilia, it is also to protect from kidnappers, accidents like choking or if the child is sick, or if the child wakes up and cries for Daddy as this has been stated, or if the child wakes up and wonders of and accidently gets killed, Madelaine was known to have wondered of before, knowing all these things are possible or have happened wouldnt you hire a babysitter or stay at home with your children.
Oh absolutely, Shazza I couldn't agree more with you but again my point in starting this thread is not say that the McCann's made a valid choice but that there were precedents for it in the service being offered by this resort and others like it meant that other guests had used the service in the past and upto the time of Madeleine's disappearance.

I tell you what though I would be curious to know if they'll continue to offer that service as is or make some changes by saying something like "We do not recommend the use of this service for children under the age of seven", or something like that?

[april4sky]

Thank you for posting april4sky.

I think we both understand why people are so angry at the McCann's for leaving the children alone but the Mark Warner Child Care info does seem to indicate that it was a fairly common practice to leave children in their rooms and have a nanny check on them, other wise the resort would not offer the service.

Actually it makes my skin crawl to think what could happen to small children waking up alone in a strange place so I couldn't agree more with the last part of your post.


Your welcome blaize. :)

Children waking is what I would have been afraid of too.
I don't think it would have occured to me that somebody would enter and take my child. :eek:
But sadly times have changed.

[Shazza]

Your welcome blaize. :)

Children waking is what I would have been afraid of too.
I don't think it would have occured to me that somebody would enter and take my child. :eek:
But sadly times have changed.

How true April, it would be great to live in a world where we could trust everyone, but sadly that is not the case, and we cant always foresee what could happen, we all make decisions, some right and some wrong, and we learn from them, but I hope I never have to learn by losing someone close to me.

[ceeaura]

I read somewhere that this resort did not offer the listening service where Madeleine was at.Going to go find that.May take me awhile though...haven't had my coffee yet so my brain in in putput mode :p

[ceeaura]

This is not the article I read,this is a blog I haven't read before.Still searching for the article I read where the listening service was not available.

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

Snip:


The McCanns’ choice to leave their children at the flat and make regular checks is surprising given the alternatives. In their defence, they may have been expecting, as advertised in Mark Warner brochures, a ‘listening service’. Staff told us that the service had been discontinued because the apartments were too spread out. The resort, however, offered a baby-sitting service for 15 euros (£10) an hour, which was staffed by a member of the daytime nursery teams, or a ‘dining out club’. This involved parents dropping off children at the crèche where they would be supervised watching videos until they went to sleep. Parents would then return before 11.30 to scoop up their sleepy offspring.

[april4sky]

How true April, it would be great to live in a world where we could trust everyone, but sadly that is not the case, and we cant always foresee what could happen, we all make decisions, some right and some wrong, and we learn from them, but I hope I never have to learn by losing someone close to me.

I know Shazza. I couldn't agree more. That makes a change doesn't it. :)

It's can be a scary world out there.
I don't know if these awful things are happening more often, or if we are just hearing about them due to the internet.

Hopefully lessons will be learned from Madeleine's case.

[Shazza]

I know Shazza. I couldn't agree more. That makes a change doesn't it. :)

It's can be a scary world out there.
I don't know if these awful things are happening more often, or if we are just hearing about them due to the internet.

Hopefully lessons will be learned from Madeleine's case.
I know we disagree on certain things about this case April, but I also think we agree on certain things too. I respect your posts. I do think we hear more due to the internet, as there are definitely things I hear on here that we dont get on our news in Australia.

[blaize]

I read somewhere that this resort did not offer the listening service where Madeleine was at.Going to go find that.May take me awhile though...haven't had my coffee yet so my brain in in putput mode :p

Thanks ceeaura, I'd appreciate that.

My whole point though in posting the child care info about the listening service is that since it's a service offered by the Mark Warner resorts and other resorts then it's a service regularly used by resort visitors. The whole point of the thread is to question if the McCann's choice of leaving the children alone and checking on them themselves was as unheard of as some posters seem to think.

Personally though considering the layout of that specific Mark Warner resort I find it difficult to imagine a horde of nannies marching around the walled resort and the village knocking on doors.

[blaize]

This is not the article I read,this is a blog I haven't read before.Still searching for the article I read where the listening service was not available.

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

Snip:

Interesting blog ceeaura.

Perhaps this is the article you're referring to?


[Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/18/wmaddy218.xml)]

The spokesman confirmed that no special review was being undertaken at the resort, which Mark Warner believes offers adequate childcare services for those that require it.

The resort has a crèche where parents can leave children while they dine.

Families are also offered the option of private babysitters for £10 an hour although availability is limited and they have to be booked 24 hours in advance.

Unlike most Mark Warner resorts, the Ocean Club does not give parents the option of a "baby listening service" where nannies tour the complex listening for crying children and then alerting parents.

"That is not a feasible option at the Ocean Club," said the spokesman.

"It is a spread-out resort that is not exclusive to Mark Warner so it wouldn't work."

Notice that the spokesman said "baby listening service" which goes to my suggestion that leaving small children alone in rooms is not an unheard of practice in resorts.

[ceeaura]

Perhaps this is the article you're referring to?





Thats it! Thank you :) I also thought that blog was interesting.

[blaize]

Thats it! Thank you :) I also thought that blog was interesting.

I found it quite unnerving that the spokesman said they wouldn't be changing their practices and so would continue to offer the baby listening services even now. It irks me that he says that the service isn't offered at that specific resort because of the layout and not because it's not a good practice to leave babies and young children alone at night

I wonder is this still their standpoint considering that article was printed in May?

[ceeaura]

I found it quite unnerving that the spokesman said they wouldn't be changing their practices and so would continue to offer the baby listening services even now. It irks me that he says that the service isn't offered at that specific resort because of the layout and not because it's not a good practice to leave babies and young children alone at night

I wonder is this still their standpoint considering that article was printed in May?

Yes it also ticks me off.Maybe we should set up a petition or a letter campaign to get them to do away with the listening service period for children 12 and younger.Only the babysitting service and the crèche would be available.Also to put that leaving children 12 and under alone is not recomended.(I still would not leave my 13-16 yearold alone...I just put 12 as an example)

Steps need to be taken to keep children safe even while on vacation in a "Safe place".It should be the parents responsibility to make sure that happens but as we can see parents are not stepping up to that.(I am not just talking about the McCanns here either.Talking about the ones who have also done what the McCanns have done and the ones who see nothing wrong with leaving 3 small children alone.)So I think it is going to have to be up to these popular resorts to ensure safety for the childrens sake.

[pinto]

Yes it also ticks me off.Maybe we should set up a petition or a letter campaign to get them to do away with the listening service period for children 12 and younger.Only the babysitting service and the crèche would be available.Also to put that leaving children 12 and under alone is not recomended.(I still would not leave my 13-16 yearold alone...I just put 12 as an example)


Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere, but are there accident reports or anything else regarding the listening service? Or, has this ever happened before, at another resort?

[STEADFAST]

Here's an interesting conversation on The Mirror's forum.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=16442&start=105

1st poster: "The way things are organised at Mark Warner, there is no real choice but to leave your kids in the room when you go for your own dinner. The children are all given their tea together and the parents dine together later. . . "

2nd poster: "I'm sorry, I don't quite understand ... are you saying that Mark Warner Resorts don't 'allow' parents to eat with their children in the evening ?"

1st poster: "Oddly enough that was something I discussed with my wife last week. She said she could recall one couple who came down to dinner with their children. Let's just say it wasn't encouraged. I think the evenng meal did not start until around 8pm, by which time our children would be normally asleep. So either way it was a less than satisfactory choice. Which is why we never went on a Mark Warner holiday again."

[blaize]

Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere, but are there accident reports or anything else regarding the listening service? Or, has this ever happened before, at another resort?

Hello Pinto,

I'd imagine accident reports & statistics are kept but unlikely to be made public except in the case of an accident leading to a court case or an insurance claim.

[hcc2007]

Hello Pinto,

I'd imagine accident reports & statistics are kept but unlikely to be made public except in the case of an accident leading to a court case or an insurance claim.

Hey this is an interesting new line! Are the McCanns sueing the Mark Warner Resort? Seems they should be, and given how they are about money and all, you'd think they would be!

I'm sure a good case could be made for liability of MW Resorts if, as they say, the window was forced open. Or just having the bushes be too thick around the house. Or because MW lets pervs hang around. I'm sure there's a case there, no matter the circumstances.

I'm not the litigious type but if my child were abducted from a resort that claims to be family-friendly, then I'd sue the holy cr&p out of them, and apply the payment to the Search Fund.

Or ... does anyone know? Maybe MW Resorts made a large contribution already to settle any possibility of a suit?

Just another obvious-but-unanswered question in this case.

[Rino]

But I haven't seen anywhere that the children who were "checked on" by nannies were as young as the McCann children. That is my problem with letting them off the hook just because they "checked."

You can see in my post there was an option for leaving small children with a secure group where they could sleep if they wanted to. I understand why it would be better for them to sleep in their own rooms, but with an unlocked door?

Again, for older children (say age 10 and up), the nanny coming around to check might be a good thing. But for small children it's not the best option. I think a stay-in babysitter would have been better. I'm sure they could have afforded that.

In my state it is unlawful for children under the age of ten years old to be left alone. Of course people break that law all the time, but that doesn't make it acceptable to me.
By reading the brochure, the nanny service for children under 2 has a fee, but the creche and servces for older children is included with the price of the trip. My point is that I think the listening and nanny coming around was indeed for the older childen - not diaper wearing age.

So, no I don't think it reflects that leaving your kids "is done" there. I also don't know what resort would be able to brag about "AWARD WINNING CHILDCARE" if the indeed left youngster unattende.

[Jayelles]

You may be interested in this blog which was written by someone who was actually at the Mark Warner Ocean Club complex this summer at the same time as the McCanns:-

In their defence, they may have been expecting, as advertised in Mark Warner brochures, a ‘listening service’. Staff told us that the service had been discontinued because the apartments were too spread out.

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

[Pinkhammer]

A "listening service" does not seem to me to be the gold standard of childcare.

[Rino]

Very intersting, thanks Jayelle. Althought the writer is sympathetic I have to disagree with 2 of his opinions.

1. There is no defense upon finding out the service was cancelled and choosing to do nothing

2. I can't imagine their dilemma. If the twins need be asleep and the charge is $10 an hour neither one of the options seems to have been a problem for them. They can certainly afford the fee, or opt out of going. The twins they report were sleeping when the left, again no problem

[BethInAK]

Again, for older children (say age 10 and up), the nanny coming around to check might be a good thing. But for small children it's not the best option. I think a stay-in babysitter would have been better. I'm sure they could have afforded that.

In my state it is unlawful for children under the age of ten years old to be left alone. Of course people break that law all the time, but that doesn't make it acceptable to me.


At age ten, left alone in a strange hotel, I'd probably have been frightened. At home I felt more secure and had a dog to protect me but the hotel would have been scary.

In our state the age of legal to stay home alone is 12, I believe.

[BethInAK]

Here's an interesting conversation on The Mirror's forum.

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=16442&start=105

1st poster: "The way things are organised at Mark Warner, there is no real choice but to leave your kids in the room when you go for your own dinner. The children are all given their tea together and the parents dine together later. . . "

2nd poster: "I'm sorry, I don't quite understand ... are you saying that Mark Warner Resorts don't 'allow' parents to eat with their children in the evening ?"

1st poster: "Oddly enough that was something I discussed with my wife last week. She said she could recall one couple who came down to dinner with their children. Let's just say it wasn't encouraged. I think the evenng meal did not start until around 8pm, by which time our children would be normally asleep. So either way it was a less than satisfactory choice. Which is why we never went on a Mark Warner holiday again."


you'll forgive me, but i could care less if its "encouraged" for my child to eat dinner with me. He's well behaved in a restaurant and there is no way I'd opt to leave him in the room because it was "discouraged".

And I'd probably alter my kids vacation schedule to fit the dinner time. Wouldnt' be hard after a time change anyway.

[STEADFAST]

you'll forgive me, but i could care less if its &quot;encouraged&quot; for my child to eat dinner with me. He's well behaved in a restaurant and there is no way I'd opt to leave him in the room because it was &quot;discouraged&quot;.

And I'd probably alter my kids vacation schedule to fit the dinner time. Wouldnt' be hard after a time change anyway.

LOL My son wasn't all that well-behaved in restaurants (always kept trying to reach the knives on the table), but I sure wouldn't have left him in the room alone either! (Plus, when we took our kids on vacation, it never would have even occurred to us to go out to dinner without them.)

[colomom]

I think leaving a 3 year old and two 2 year old children alone at all is asking for trouble.

Regardless of what the resort offered, listening service or not, I would always worry that if I was not physically present, or a sitter physically present, I would worry about things like poking metal objects into light sockets, jumping on beds around furniture, playing with the stove, playing hide and seek in the refrigerator, drowning in the toilet....

Why didn't the McCanns hire the sitter for $20 an hour? Why didn't they have one of the party bring all the kids over to one apartment and take turns being a group sitter? Why didn't they order takeaway and have a dinner party at the apartment?

Why did they ignore the warnings from the Mark Warner staff that there had been burgularies and they should consider a sitter? Why did they have a sitter reserved and then cancel at 6:00PM that night? Why did they leave a door unlocked? Why would they leave their children alone when they thought they were being "watched" or "stalked"?

There will never be a lawsuit against Mark Warner Resorts because of what I have listed above. In fact, they bent over backward to accomodate and help the McCanns. Actually, the question is interesting....why haven't they filed a lawsuit? Perhaps it would get UGLY.....

[BethInAK]

I think leaving a 3 year old and two 2 year old children alone at all is asking for trouble.

Regardless of what the resort offered, listening service or not, I would always worry that if I was not physically present, or a sitter physically present, I would worry about things like poking metal objects into light sockets, jumping on beds around furniture, playing with the stove, playing hide and seek in the refrigerator, drowning in the toilet....


Especially since the twins were supposedly on a bed, and not contained in a crib. I mean, I imagine this apartment was not fully childproofed and it would be VERY unsafe to have 18 month olds running around there without supervision.

Maybe something like that DID happen. Maybe a terrible accident due to poor supervision and an unchildproofed room.

[blaize]

I think leaving a 3 year old and two 2 year old children alone at all is asking for trouble.

Regardless of what the resort offered, listening service or not, I would always worry that if I was not physically present, or a sitter physically present, I would worry about things like poking metal objects into light sockets, jumping on beds around furniture, playing with the stove, playing hide and seek in the refrigerator, drowning in the toilet....

[Respectfully Snipped]

There will never be a lawsuit against Mark Warner Resorts because of what I have listed above. In fact, they bent over backward to accomodate and help the McCanns. Actually, the question is interesting....why haven't they filed a lawsuit? Perhaps it would get UGLY.....

Hello colomom,

It would get ugly no doubt. But as I stated earlier my intention in starting the thread was to point out that these child care arrangements or non arrangements as most of us would see it, are not as unusual as people originally thought.

As sad as that is to say & as odd & downright dangerous as it seems to many of us to use the said "baby listening" services for babies & young children, it's obvious that many visitors have availed of the service & as long as it's available will continue to use it.

[colomom]

Hello colomom,

It would get ugly no doubt. But as I stated earlier my intention in starting the thread was to point out that these child care arrangements or non arrangements as most of us would see it, are not as unusual as people originally thought.

As sad as that is to say & as odd & downright dangerous as it seems to many of us to use the said "baby listening" services for babies & young children, it's obvious that many visitors have availed of the service & as long as it's available will continue to use it.

Alright, I will get down and nasty about it....ANYBODY how would consider useing a child listening service for a 3 year old and two 2 year olds is STUPID!! I don't care who you are....


:D

[Shazza]

Alright, I will get down and nasty about it....ANYBODY how would consider useing a child listening service for a 3 year old and two 2 year olds is STUPID!! I don't care who you are....


:D
I too had a discussion about the services available at the resort earlier in this thread, I tried to point out the service could also be available because there were dangers to be had, the McCanns were warned about burglaries, they thought they were being followed, and still they did not use the babysitting service, and by that I mean a person, what does sleeping children sound like, quiet, what do missing children sound like, quiet, the listening service is a joke.


Have a shot of whiskey Colomom, calm them nerves, Im behind you all the way.:clap:

[colomom]

I too had a discussion about the services available at the resort earlier in this thread, I tried to point out the service could also be available because there were dangers to be had, the McCanns were warned about burglaries, they thought they were being followed, and still they did not use the babysitting service, and by that I mean a person, what does sleeping children sound like, quiet, what do missing children sound like, quiet, the listening service is a joke.


Have a shot of whiskey Colomom, calm them nerves, Im behind you all the way.:clap:

You got it grrrrllll, a bit o' brandy w/honey and lemon....ahhhhh toddy time....

thanks shazza!!!

XXOO

[Shazza]

You got it grrrrllll, a bit o' brandy w/honey and lemon....ahhhhh toddy time....

thanks shazza!!!

XXOO
A toddy sounds damn fine to me,:p but its to early for a drink here it isn't even lunch time yet.:slap:

[L L & S]

Hi Blaize, nice to run into you!!

Something I've been thinking about since you started this thread.... I wonder if other European resorts offer the same services as far as child care? Is this common among resort amenities.... and if it is then is there an expressed age limit. Like if your child is under a certain age they require you to hire an actual sitter (or, God forbid, the other way around.)

Do you happen to know?

[Brefie]

Hey this is an interesting new line! Are the McCanns sueing the Mark Warner Resort? Seems they should be, and given how they are about money and all, you'd think they would be!


Okay, not trying to start anything, but how are they all about money?

[blaize]

Alright, I will get down and nasty about it....ANYBODY how would consider useing a child listening service for a 3 year old and two 2 year olds is STUPID!! I don't care who you are....


:D

Sometimes smart people do very, very stupid things & as we've seen something only has to go wrong once for the house of cards to come tumbling down, in this sad case resulting in Madeleine's disappearance.

[blaize]

Hi Blaize, nice to run into you!!

Something I've been thinking about since you started this thread.... I wonder if other European resorts offer the same services as far as child care? Is this common among resort amenities.... and if it is then is there an expressed age limit. Like if your child is under a certain age they require you to hire an actual sitter (or, God forbid, the other way around.)

Do you happen to know?

Hello L L & S,

it's not just resorts that offer baby listening services. Have a look at this link listing a number of hotels who offer the service in the UK. You may need to check individual hotel web sites to see if they set age limits.
[Source (http://www.breakswithtradition.com/familyfriendly/familyfriendly.htm)]

Some hotels in Ireland offering the same baby listening service.

Scroll down the page for info on the Burren Castle Hotel.

[Baltimore Habour Hotel (http://www.bhrhotel.ie/leisure.html)]

[Grand Hotel Waterford (http://www.hotel-rates.com/ireland/waterford/grand-hotel.html)]

Also at another link,
[Source (http://www.travellingwithchildren.co.uk/acatalog/childcare.html)]
"[B]Baby Listening Services

Some hotels offer baby listening services for those parents who wish to stay in the hotel but possibly relax in the bar or eat a leisurely meal after the children are in bed.

These usually take the form of leaving your hotel room's telephone off the hook and the hotel receptionist will listen in and get a message to you if he/she hears that you child is awake. The alternative is to take your UK walk-about baby monitor downstairs with you, unfortunately however, due to the different radio wave bands that have been allocated to be used by different countries, interference is common. Add to this the frequent construction techniques used in much holiday accommodation, i.e. thick reinforced concrete walls and steel girders, and you may find reception is also a problem."

[L L & S]

Thank you Blaize. I started doing some Google searches on this and couldn't find a search string to get me where I wanted to go. I'll will absolutely do some pokin' around those links.

Have a good day.... or night... no it's day. ;)

[pinto]

discussion about baby listening (http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/2411/175895)

Read in reverse order:


By Piggiesmum on Wed 24-May-06 21:47:48
Hmmm, some good points raised. Looks like we'll be either taking him along in the pushchair or getting a proper babysitter in.


By Northerner on Wed 24-May-06 11:07:18
Uglysister, don't mean to scare you, and ovbiosulsy you have to assess the level of risk. A family run small hotel in The Lake District is rather different to a 400 bedroom city centre hotel IYKWIM. But yes, even electroninc swipe keys - reception, night porters, maintenence men, room service, duty managers, house keepers all have access to guest bedrooms.


By Skribble on Tue 23-May-06 23:12:07
I'm afraid that is very true Northener, we probably wouldn't have used it but we new lots of the staff and the room was just along the corridoor on the ground floor, I don't think I would have used it in strange hotel and definatly not on another floor. Sorry I don't wan't to scare you as well but what about in the case of a fire? I would take babes with me, I don't know about England but in Scotland all indoor areas are non smoking including bars, restruants and function suites, great for those with young families.

By UglySister on Tue 23-May-06 19:51:31
Northerner, you´re putting the fear of God in me. What about the electronic access keys, do lots of staff still have a master key to cover all rooms?

By Northerner on Tue 23-May-06 19:37:14
I know I've said this before (but this is a huge bug bear of mine) I would NEVER trust a hotel listening service. I work in the industry, and am well aware that Locked Hotel rooms are not safe unless dead locked from the inside . Countless people have a key to acess your room, and countless break ins occur in hotel rooms all over. How many of us would leave our passport/handbag unattended in a hotel room? So why a child? Many of the major hotel groups will now not offer a baby listening service anyway.


By Skribble on Tue 23-May-06 19:32:09
I stayed at a Hilton where the baby listen service meant leaving the phone off the hook in the room and you could phone the room any time as often as you wanted to monitor any noise. Works well if you do it right and get the phone near enough to the cot.


By LIZS on Tue 23-May-06 12:46:00
Not all hotels offer a service and as has been decribed they can be hit and miss. (Esprit "listen at door" service, at half hourly intervals, failed to spot dd had escaped from her travel cot and was howling behind the door.)We have used both the dial-up-to-listen and reception monitoring methods successfully but that may be luck. Could you take just your own monitor and ask for a low floor room ?

By UglySister on Tue 23-May-06 12:29:53
There are good phone baby löistening services. One type I know from a Kinderhotel is a contraption in baby´s room that picks up any noise and above a certain level will call you on your mobile. You can then here what´s happening in the room and if baby is crying run up to rescue her! This really worked, I was v pleased with it - check what the hotel offers! At 7 months though will your DS not sleep in the dining room anyway in his pram? My DD did no problem at this age... Could be worth a try.


By Piggiesmum on Mon 22-May-06 21:33:02
If I could take him down in the pram that would be perfect. We have been out on 2 big family party/meals and he slept through both of them. I couldn't believe it with all the noise. Taking my mum would be perfect but unfortunately its just too far away. Anyway thanks all, you've given me a few more things to think about/consider.

By MrsMuddle on Mon 22-May-06 21:24:37
Don't know how you're placed financially, but could you take your mum/sister or someone with you and pay for another room? It's probably the only way you'll be able to relax fully and enjoy your night. Also, some hotels' baby listening facilities mean that YOU have to dial your room every so often and listen in. It always used to be done by reception, but I guess they're afraid of getting sued or something now.

By moondog on Mon 22-May-06 21:10:59
I would trust a babysitter more than the other scenario. Other option is to bring her down in the pram,and park in quiet corner of the dining room. Feasible???


By Piggiesmum on Mon 22-May-06 20:59:22
eek Moondog. Are you talking from personal experience. Thats the sort of thing I'm afraid of. It's not really possible to leave him with anyone for various reasons. I did wonder about the babysitter option but I'm abit paranoid about leaving him with a stranger - haven't even left him with my own family for more than a couple of hours. Taking my own monitor would be the ideal option if it's range was good enough. I can just see me now, sitting there in my fancy dress, staring intently at the monitor hidden behing a glass of wine and leaping up from the table when it lights up!


By MissChief on Mon 22-May-06 20:41:57
depends on place, we've been lucky and had kindly fellow mums on reception listening in beofre so could even interpret the snuffles for us! take yr baby monitor too as it may work v- could ask for room where would work anyway.


By WickedWaterWitch on Mon 22-May-06 20:40:26
Is there someone who could have your ds overnight? Or you could try Sitters, they're very good. They won't do overnight though so that would only be any good for an evening. Why don't you phone the hotel and ask what they offer? Some may be better than moondog's terrifying description, which made me laugh! you will find opinions divided on mumsmet about baby listening from 'it'll be fine' to 'but what if a nuclear bomb dropped on Devon, then what would you do?' For a 7mo baby, I'm in the former camp.

By moondog on Mon 22-May-06 20:37:11
Phone stays off the hook. Lumpy teenager on YTS scheme texting in the reception area may listen in vaguely every 25 mins (when not thinking of what she'll be doing to her boyfriend on Friday night when her mum and dad are out) if you're lucky. Wouldn't trust it for a second.


By Piggiesmum on Mon 22-May-06 20:34:57
We've got an opportunity for a weekend away - dh's company do including fancy evening meal etc). It'll be the first time we've been out without ds (7 months) so while I'm looking forward to it I'm also suffering from 1st time mum nerves. We're thinking of using a baby listening service if it's available but (and sorry if it's a stupid question), how do they work exactly, anyone had any problems with them.

[ThoughtFox]

I'm trying not to get irritated here, but this is what I think:

Unless the Mark Warner resort people forced the McCann's out of their apartment every night at dinner, this comes down to a bad personal choice these parents made more than one time. By admitting that they left the children alone multiple nights, they don't have a legal leg to stand on in suing the resort for their own problems.

I disagree that a "precedent" set at that resort or any other lets them off the hook at all.

There is precedent that some people put soft drinks in baby bottles and give them to their toddlers, but if I do it, and my child's teeth rot because of it, it is my responsibility because I made a stupid and dangerous decision, and blaming it on what other people do would be lame indeed.

I can't sue the soft drink company, and I can't sue a dentist down the road who could have kept my child from having rotten teeth.

That's what it sounds like to me if the parents sued the resort because they chose "not" to hire a babysitter or nanny.

That's a logical fallacy to say "If everyone is doing it, then it's ok." If the parents couldn't stand the idea of eating out with their own children, then I feel sorry for them and the kids, too. They are not the ideal parents, obviously.

"Listening" at a door is not the same thing as "parenting" a child. They cannot shove the responsibility off so easily as that.

[CaliKid]

I looked up resorts with child-minding services on the web and there are a lot. While not all parents leave their children in their rooms, it seems to be a very familiar practice among the vacationers-with-money crowd in Europe. All of the following advertise child-minding services.

http://www.interhome.us/Holiday%20house/Ireland/South%20East/Courtown/J3440200.htm

http://skiing.drive-alive.co.uk/les-arcs.htm

http://www.thomson.co.uk/editorial/press-centre/2007/crystal-finest-doubles-number-of-luxury-ski-properties.html

http://www.travelideas.net/hotels/Bali/Ubud_Area/Anahata_Villas_Spa_Resort

http://www.interhome.com.au/Holiday%20apartment/Switzerland/Valais/L%C3%B6tschental%20-%20L%C3%B6tschberg/C3917660B.htm

http://skiing.drive-alive.co.uk/la-plagne.htm

Etc.

The following is from a blog called Tabula Rasa, and about halfway down a post is devoted to Madeleine entitled "This isn't going to have a happy ending". It was a very interesting read about the way people who live in Europe view holidays and taking children with them- extremely casual.

http://www.dragonsmind.co.uk/?m=200705

From it:
Most child-minding services outside of using the creche consist of walkie-talkies with the talk button taped down, having limited range and giving poor reception.

Creche service for your children at night may or may not be allowed depending on where you're dining.

Taking a child out to eat with you is discouraged.

There usually isn't room service of any kind of quality for the adults to eat in.

He finishes with: The thing is that we weren’t the only ones who were “negligent parents” leaving their kiddies in their room - just about all the other parents in the resort were doing the same. I sincerely doubt the McCanns were the only ones at their resort doing so either. We used to come down to the bar, have a small beer/glass of wine and join other parents and discuss, once again, how nice it was to be able to come on holiday to such a child friendly place and what good facilities they had to cater for families and how, as much as we absolutely adored our sprogs, it was still nice to be able to sit down for a little while without them and enjoy a drink, a meal and some adult company.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for the McCanns, I'm just stating that it looks like it's done differently in Europe. Even though I would never leave my children alone nor know anyone else who would either, I think we need to get over this Leaving Kids Alone issue and move on.

[ThoughtFox]

OK, great, but if you look back at some of my previous posts, there are testimonials that talk about how wonderful the child care was at the Portugal resort.

But these parents didn't take advantage of all of that. However, I don't see why they couldn't have used the Creche that night, since this article states that the nanny in charge of night-time care said the last mother came to pick up her child at 10 p.m., and that's when they realized the McCanns were searching for Maddie.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483715&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

The mother who told the nanny someone was shouting for Maddie had also been out to dinner, but her children were being watched by a nanny, while the McCanns left their kids alone in a room, with tragic results.

I don't really care about what is done elsewhere, since that is hardly relevant to this case.

[L L & S]

I had a feeling that this type of "listening service" might be more common in other countries that I had originally thought.

Not a good idea IMO! If their radios or switchboards fail in any way... any of their "listening devices" really, and a child gets injured in the room on something, taken by a stranger, or whatever then the property might be liable to some degree. I could be way off base here. What do you guys think?

For example:

"You said your Listening Service/Device/Switchboard would alert me if my child woke. Now he/she is gone/injured." Who do you think the parents are going to go after?

Sounds like a HUGE risk to the property and I can see why we don't to that here. Oh goodness.... resorts don't do that here, right? I really need to get out more.

I wonder... because I'm kind of a computer nerd.... Will they replace this service with a video monitoring service (can you say iphone) for your kids? You take your laptop computer set it on the desk and point that camera at the sleeping babies and then go to the bar and party and just watch your kids on monitors. Then you have a nice video of your children enjoying the company of anyone on the property who has a pass key while your drinking Mojito's with Biff and Barb by the pool. (sarcastic I know, this really fascinates me though)

I don't like it but I do realize now that people in other countries do things differently than we do here in the Nifty Fifty. I wonder what kind of things we do that makes them Freak Out. I would kind of like to know because this service really FREAKS ME OUT.

BTW, nanny cams are easily purchased all over the net. I think if I used a sitting service (strangers with my kids, sorry probably not) but if I did I would have a hidden cam watching the people watching the kids. Even so, I would still be a wreck thinking constantly what was going on back in the room.

Thank you to Blaize Pinto and Thought Fox for going out and doing the "leg work" on this. To me, it has been very enlightening. I wonder if any resort would offer up any statistics about how many guests with children use the "listening services" vs "live sitters".

My heart breaks for this baby girl.

[CaliKid]

It sounds as if this is exclusive to other parts of the world- in the US, I think it's illegal in every state to leave your children alone.

There was a link over the summer about a British couple who was vacationing in Florida and left their young kids in a hotel room. The boy went looking for his parents, and CPS stepped in. I believe they jailed the couple overnight and let them go later with charges dropped. Money talks.

However, the point of my post was that even though questionable about how safe and/or successful the practice is, child-minding services seem to be common in Europe, and the more successful the parents, the more they're relied on.

Apparently the McCanns went to Portugal with the idea they could use a child-minding service. It wasn't available because the resort is too spread out, and besides, the McCanns weren't actually staying inside the resort anyway. Instead of taking a safe and positive step forward and hiring a nanny or using the creche, they decided to do their own child-minding, at least the night that Maddie disappeared. Maybe the results were tragic- maybe she was abducted. Or maybe the McCanns have even used the Leaving the Children Alone theme to deflect from a much larger, more criminal element- hurting Maddie and covering up her death by saying she was kidnapped.

a) By leaving the children (which may or may not have included Madeleine depending on whether you believe her parents harmed her), they put them in danger of accident, death and abduction.
b) That's neglect. In the US, you would be punished for it and probably have your children taken away.
c) In Portugal and the UK, if you were a "welfare" parent and did the same thing, you would be punished for it and probably have your children taken away.
d) The McCanns may be charged for negligence at some point, but so far haven't.

I guess I have to agree with docwho and some of the others. We KNOW that the McCanns shouldn't have left their children alone, and we can argue up the wazoo whether they were right or wrong, depending on how you feel about what was normal for them. Most of us here at WS think they were wrong.

Getting hung up on the neglect issues is holding us back from discussing other things that, IMO, are more important.

[april4sky]

Hello L L & S,

it's not just resorts that offer baby listening services. Have a look at this link listing a number of hotels who offer the service in the UK. You may need to check individual hotel web sites to see if they set age limits.
[Source (http://www.breakswithtradition.com/familyfriendly/familyfriendly.htm)]

Some hotels in Ireland offering the same baby listening service.

Scroll down the page for info on the Burren Castle Hotel.

[Baltimore Habour Hotel (http://www.bhrhotel.ie/leisure.html)]

[Grand Hotel Waterford (http://www.hotel-rates.com/ireland/waterford/grand-hotel.html)]

Also at another link,
[Source (http://www.travellingwithchildren.co.uk/acatalog/childcare.html)]
"[B]Baby Listening Services

Some hotels offer baby listening services for those parents who wish to stay in the hotel but possibly relax in the bar or eat a leisurely meal after the children are in bed.

These usually take the form of leaving your hotel room's telephone off the hook and the hotel receptionist will listen in and get a message to you if he/she hears that you child is awake. The alternative is to take your UK walk-about baby monitor downstairs with you, unfortunately however, due to the different radio wave bands that have been allocated to be used by different countries, interference is common. Add to this the frequent construction techniques used in much holiday accommodation, i.e. thick reinforced concrete walls and steel girders, and you may find reception is also a problem."

Hi blaize.
I knew baby "listening" services were widespread. And it's not just holiday resorts but Hotels offer this too.

It "doesn't" make it right but I think it may explain "why" the McCanns felt it was an ok thing to do.

It would be interesting to know from posters if this service is also offered in their particular country, or is it just a European thing.

Either way the "option" should no longer be an option anywhere. IMO

[CaliKid]

I agree, April. I think what happened to Madeleine should make resort owners take a good hard look at how unsafe this practice is and abolish it.

I also believe there needs to be a huge effort on the part of child-safety experts to educate the public about keeping a closer eye on their children when they're on holiday. Dining apart from your children and just leaving them in the room with a walkie-talkie is asking for trouble.

I agree with colomom and others who say that the McCanns should've stepped up to the plate early on and used their own "experience" to advocate for better supervision, but sadly they didn't.

[L L & S]

From Blaize's links:

Burren Castle Hotel

~~ clipped

Attractively furnished and decorated the hotel offers friendly service, good food and entertainment including its famous céilí. Other Amenities: Tennis. Mini golf. Wheelchair friendly. Baby listening. Facilities for the disabled. Facilities for children. Pets allowed.


Baltimore Harbour Hotel Ireland

~~clipped

Babysitting Service Available:
Babysitting and baby listening services are available on request. Please ask at Reception and we will be happy to organise these facilities on your behalf.


Grand Hotel in Waterford, Ireland

~~clipped

The 82 guestrooms are decorated with floral bedspreads and curtains, pale walls and oak furniture. All have tea and coffee making facilities, television, hair dryers, makeup mirrors and telephones. Baby-listening services and cots are free of charge, and babysitting can be arranged on request (fee).

EEEK!!

I keep reading the phrase "pedophile rings". I wonder how many people see the list of which rooms are being listened too .... and the exact times that the parents are to be "out". It just makes it too easy for someone to take advantage of these situations. I wonder if hotels/resorts have established policy about just how many employees are privy to this information.

[april4sky]

I looked up resorts with child-minding services on the web and there are a lot. While not all parents leave their children in their rooms, it seems to be a very familiar practice among the vacationers-with-money crowd in Europe. All of the following advertise child-minding services.

http://www.interhome.us/Holiday%20house/Ireland/South%20East/Courtown/J3440200.htm

http://skiing.drive-alive.co.uk/les-arcs.htm

http://www.thomson.co.uk/editorial/press-centre/2007/crystal-finest-doubles-number-of-luxury-ski-properties.html

http://www.travelideas.net/hotels/Bali/Ubud_Area/Anahata_Villas_Spa_Resort

http://www.interhome.com.au/Holiday%20apartment/Switzerland/Valais/L%C3%B6tschental%20-%20L%C3%B6tschberg/C3917660B.htm

http://skiing.drive-alive.co.uk/la-plagne.htm

Etc.

The following is from a blog called Tabula Rasa, and about halfway down a post is devoted to Madeleine entitled "This isn't going to have a happy ending". It was a very interesting read about the way people who live in Europe view holidays and taking children with them- extremely casual.

http://www.dragonsmind.co.uk/?m=200705

From it:
Most child-minding services outside of using the creche consist of walkie-talkies with the talk button taped down, having limited range and giving poor reception.

Creche service for your children at night may or may not be allowed depending on where you're dining.

Taking a child out to eat with you is discouraged.

There usually isn't room service of any kind of quality for the adults to eat in.

He finishes with: The thing is that we weren’t the only ones who were “negligent parents” leaving their kiddies in their room - just about all the other parents in the resort were doing the same. I sincerely doubt the McCanns were the only ones at their resort doing so either. We used to come down to the bar, have a small beer/glass of wine and join other parents and discuss, once again, how nice it was to be able to come on holiday to such a child friendly place and what good facilities they had to cater for families and how, as much as we absolutely adored our sprogs, it was still nice to be able to sit down for a little while without them and enjoy a drink, a meal and some adult company.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for the McCanns, I'm just stating that it looks like it's done differently in Europe. Even though I would never leave my children alone nor know anyone else who would either, I think we need to get over this Leaving Kids Alone issue and move on.



I agree Calikid.

I'm not advocating either, just trying to understand the "why"

If nothing else comes from Madeleine's sad case I pray that the "listening" service is well and truly scrapped.

[april4sky]

I agree, April. I think what happened to Madeleine should make resort owners take a good hard look at how unsafe this practice is and abolish it.



I hope your right Calikid because this should be one hell of a wake up call.

In fact the law should step in to make the practice illegal.

[L L & S]

I agree Calikid.

I'm not advocating either, just trying to understand the "why"

If nothing else comes from Madeleine's sad case I pray that the "listening" service is well and truly scrapped.

I absolutely agree!!

[blaize]

I'm trying not to get irritated here, but this is what I think:

Unless the Mark Warner resort people forced the McCann's out of their apartment every night at dinner, this comes down to a bad personal choice these parents made more than one time. By admitting that they left the children alone multiple nights, they don't have a legal leg to stand on in suing the resort for their own problems.

I disagree that a "precedent" set at that resort or any other lets them off the hook at all.

<Respectfully Snipped>
"Listening" at a door is not the same thing as "parenting" a child. They cannot shove the responsibility off so easily as that.

Hello ThoughtFox,

the purpose is starting this thread was to demonstrate that baby listening services are offered on European holday & hotel breaks regularly. Whether or not parents avail of the service is up to them but this thread is not about "letting anyone off the hook" for making a poor decision. You'll have noticed that most people posting are appalled by the idea of leaving babies & small children alone is a hotel room or apartment. The legal discussion occurred because people were looking for a way to stop the practice.

[L L & S]

Hello ThoughtFox,

the purpose is starting this thread was to demonstrate that baby listening services are offered on European holday & hotel breaks regularly. Whether or not parents avail of the service is up to them but this thread is not about "letting anyone off the hook" for making a poor decision. You'll have noticed that most people posting are appalled by the idea of leaving babies & small children alone is a hotel room or apartment. The legal discussion occurred because people were looking for a way to stop the practice.

That's pretty much it right there. I'm not even addressing G and K and their friends all leaving their kids alone in their rooms. I agree that that was universally stupid, obviously.

What fascinates me is that this most certainly is a common practice in many countries. That really blows me away. Could this practice over the years be what has fed these pedophile rings that we constantly read about and refer to?

Great thread Blaize, and great discussion everyone. I must head to bed. I hope we get a lot more opinions tomorrow.

This topic has just got me all :banghead: Not so much G and K but the whole rest of the world. I have my own feelings about G and K and I'll share those on another thread.

Good night my friends.

[blaize]

It sounds as if this is exclusive to other parts of the world- in the US, I think it's illegal in every state to leave your children alone.

[Respectfully Snipped]

However, the point of my post was that even though questionable about how safe and/or successful the practice is, child-minding services seem to be common in Europe, and the more successful the parents, the more they're relied on.

Apparently the McCanns went to Portugal with the idea they could use a child-minding service. It wasn't available because the resort is too spread out, and besides, the McCanns weren't actually staying inside the resort anyway. Instead of taking a safe and positive step forward and hiring a nanny or using the creche, they decided to do their own child-minding, at least the night that Maddie disappeared. Maybe the results were tragic- maybe she was abducted. Or maybe the McCanns have even used the Leaving the Children Alone theme to deflect from a much larger, more criminal element- hurting Maddie and covering up her death by saying she was kidnapped.

[Respectfully Snipped]

I guess I have to agree with docwho and some of the others. We KNOW that the McCanns shouldn't have left their children alone, and we can argue up the wazoo whether they were right or wrong, depending on how you feel about what was normal for them. Most of us here at WS think they were wrong.

Getting hung up on the neglect issues is holding us back from discussing other things that, IMO, are more important.

Hello CaliKid,

absolutely, most people accept that the children should not have been left alone but I think it's an issue people feel the need to discuss in an attempt to understand the broader cultural, economic & social implications of the case discussion.

[L L & S]

~~respectfully snipped

Getting hung up on the neglect issues is holding us back from discussing other things that, IMO, are more important.

Then with all due respect and I really mean that... don't come to this thread. There are many others. We happen to be discussing the OTHER COUNTRIES of the world and how this baby listening thing is, in our opinions, WRONG! I find the topic fascinating and would like to continue the conversation with others who would like to know about this.

I hope I didn't offend you. I do not mean to. I am typing with a smile on my face and a peaceful heart. Thanks for reading this.

Maybe tomorrow there will be some REAL NEWS to discuss. Until there is.... I am happy following this conversation/discussion.

Again.. thanks for reading this. LOL.. I really should go to bed now.

A peaceful night to you all.

[Shazza]

Hello CaliKid,

absolutely, most people accept that the children should not have been left alone but I think it's an issue people feel the need to discuss in an attempt to understand the broader cultural, economic & social implications of the case discussion.
It is illegal to leave your children alone in Australia.
I have amended this in the next post, sorry, I should have provided a link.

[Shazza]

Hello CaliKid,

absolutely, most people accept that the children should not have been left alone but I think it's an issue people feel the need to discuss in an attempt to understand the broader cultural, economic & social implications of the case discussion.

This is what is said about leaving children alone in Australia.
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=305&id=1666

[narlacat]

This is what is said about leaving children alone in Australia.
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=305&id=1666

From that link:

<<There is no actual law that states at what age children can or cannot be left alone>>

Doesn't sound like it is illegal to me.

But will check that out more, that is just one link...I wasn't sure where our laws were at concerning leaving kids alone at what age.

[Shazza]

From that link:

<<There is no actual law that states at what age children can or cannot be left alone>>

Doesn't sound like it is illegal to me.

But will check that out more, that is just one link...I wasn't sure where our laws were at concerning leaving kids alone at what age.


This is a snippet from the same link.

While different societies have different customs, in Australia there is a legal obligation for parents to make sure that their children are properly looked after.

I did the bolding, it speaks for itself.

[narlacat]

This is a snippet from the same link.

While different societies have different customs, in Australia there is a legal obligation for parents to make sure that their children are properly looked after.

I did the bolding, it speaks for itself.

What is that legal obligation?

[Shazza]

What is that legal obligation?

Look it up in a dictionary what the words means.

[narlacat]

From link-
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=305&id=1666


What does the law say in Australia?

There is no actual law that states at what age children can or cannot be left alone, but the law is clear about the responsibility of parents to look after their children.

[Shazza]

From link-
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=305&id=1666


What does the law say in Australia?

There is no actual law that states at what age children can or cannot be left alone, but the law is clear about the responsibility of parents to look after their children.
Keep reading that link as I copied and pasted that snippet from there, then you can decide how you decipher what a legal obligation for parents to make sure that their children are properly looked after means.

[AfterMidnight]

EEEK!!

I keep reading the phrase "pedophile rings". I wonder how many people see the list of which rooms are being listened too .... and the exact times that the parents are to be "out". It just makes it too easy for someone to take advantage of these situations. I wonder if hotels/resorts have established policy about just how many employees are privy to this information.
__________________

Exactly, L L & S, this has been one of my concerns with the employees of the Tapas Bar from the beginning. They seemed to be watching the McCann party very closely, keeping tabs if you will.

[narlacat]

EEEK!!

I keep reading the phrase "pedophile rings". I wonder how many people see the list of which rooms are being listened too .... and the exact times that the parents are to be "out". It just makes it too easy for someone to take advantage of these situations. I wonder if hotels/resorts have established policy about just how many employees are privy to this information.
__________________

Exactly, L L & S, this has been one of my concerns with the employees of the Tapas Bar from the beginning. They seemed to be watching the McCann party very closely, keeping tabs if you will.

Scary!! -way too easy.

[L L & S]

EEEK!!

I keep reading the phrase "pedophile rings". I wonder how many people see the list of which rooms are being listened too .... and the exact times that the parents are to be "out". It just makes it too easy for someone to take advantage of these situations. I wonder if hotels/resorts have established policy about just how many employees are privy to this information.
__________________

Exactly, L L & S, this has been one of my concerns with the employees of the Tapas Bar from the beginning. They seemed to be watching the McCann party very closely, keeping tabs if you will.


LOL, I"m never gonna get to bed... The staff at Tapas probably knew they had kids. They also knew (possibly) that they are not using the listening service just taking turns checking the children. (maybe the Tapas was completely out of range for that service. It's not exactly right next door)

They would also know just how many bottles of wine really went around the table and who was smashed and who wasn't. Oh goodness, I've begun a conspiracy theory. Purely speculation. I don't know what was going through their heads. We'll find out someday hopefully.

But this exploration of how things are done in other countries is a lot of fun to me. Some of the stuff just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I long to travel.

[narlacat]

Just a quick look at where Australia is at with their laws re: leaving kids alone.
Will find out more, but did find out it is illegal to leave them in the car.

http://raisingchildren.net.au/articles/safety_in_the_car.html

[ThoughtFox]

Hello ThoughtFox,

the purpose is starting this thread was to demonstrate that baby listening services are offered on European holday & hotel breaks regularly. Whether or not parents avail of the service is up to them but this thread is not about "letting anyone off the hook" for making a poor decision. You'll have noticed that most people posting are appalled by the idea of leaving babies & small children alone is a hotel room or apartment. The legal discussion occurred because people were looking for a way to stop the practice.

hmmmm - well, I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss:

"Mark Warner Resort Childcare Information"

and that's what I posted.

My point is that childcare was available and they didn't use it. Other parents had babysitters on that night, therefore you cannot say that "everyone" else was just having their children checked on by nannies in hallways.

If people think others should "get over it" that is their opinion.

Since I didn't understand this the purpose of this thread, and since I don't intend to "get over" my point of view, I'll just say goodbye to this topic.

I learned alot, believe me.

[Shazza]

hmmmm - well, I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss:

"Mark Warner Resort Childcare Information"

and that's what I posted.

My point is that childcare was available and they didn't use it. Other parents had babysitters on that night, therefore you cannot say that "everyone" else was just having their children checked on by nannies in hallways.

If people think others should "get over it" that is their opinion.

Since I didn't understand this the purpose of this thread, and since I don't intend to "get over" my point of view, I'll just say goodbye to this topic.

I learned alot, believe me.
Sorry for my part in getting off topic ThoughtFox, didnt realise.

[CaliKid]

Thoughtfox and others, I too believe that the McCanns should not have left their children alone night after night to go out and eat/drink with their friends. I have stated so many times. If you want, you may go look at many of my previous posts going way back to June to see how I feel.

The information I supplied was put there for a reason. In Europe, especially at high-priced holiday resorts, it's normal for child-minding services to be offered as part of the vacation package or purchased for an extra fee, just like Mark Warner did.

I also happen to believe this is a very bad idea because it really doesn't keep the children as safe as it sounds. There would be a huge opportunity for pedophiles to find a way to target people who have children being left alone in hotel rooms simply by watching who is carrying a walkie talkie.

My views in suggesting we "get over it" have nothing to do with how right or wrong the McCanns were. IMO, they were wrong.

From everything we've seen, the McCanns left their children every night of their vacation to go out with their friends.
If the McCanns didn't hurt Madeleine, they left her and the twins that night, and she was abducted.
If they did hurt Madeleine, they left the twins alone on May 3.

But I do feel the Leaving Kids Alone issue is holiding many back from looking at the larger picture. Sorry if I offended you.

[april4sky]

.

The information I supplied was put there for a reason. In Europe, especially at high-priced holiday resorts, it's normal for child-minding services to be offered as part of the vacation package or purchased for an extra fee, just like Mark Warner did.

I also happen to believe this is a very bad idea because it really doesn't keep the children as safe as it sounds. There would be a huge opportunity for pedophiles to find a way to target people who have children being left alone in hotel rooms simply by watching who is carrying a walkie talkie.



You didn't offend me Calikid. :) This thread has taught me a lot.

I know it had crossed my mind before about baby listening services but it was only after reading this thread that I thought to do a search of holiday resorts and hotels. I'm shocked just how widespread it is.

It does seem to be Europe where it's often the "norm"
I couldn't find any in Australia and I assume from posters here it doesn't happen in the US.

It needed a light shining on it!!! Hopefully there will be moves to make it illegal.

[curiousity]

The child listening service is fairly common in Europe, and you can find it in other parts of the world including India, Africa and even the US. The service is often provided in small, upscale inns. Sometimes, the phone is left off the hook and the front desk receptionist (who normally doesn't have much to do in the evenings) listens to the open line for any noise. The concept is the same as a baby monitor. At other inns, a baby monitor is provided.

I can see where it wouldn't be an option at the Portugal resort because of the size of the resort with its separate buildings. In the inns I have stayed with the service, it is much like staying in your home and eating downstairs in the dining room while the child sleeps upstairs. The service is intended for babies and young children who would be asleep by the adult dinner time.

I have never used this service but lots of people do. I understand that most American parents would be too paranoid to use it (I am in this category). However, if the McCanns live in a world where a child listening service is normal, then it is not much of a stretch to think that it's acceptable to leave the sleeping children if the adults periodically check on them.

I do realize that the McCanns provided the alleged abductor with an opportunity to take the child by leaving the children alone. I agree with Calikid that many posters here can't seem to get beyond the leaving the kids alone. If I let my child ride his bike down the street, and someone drives by and snatches him, I have provided the opportunity for him to be abducted. However, I am not criminally liable for letting him ride a bike even though it led to his abduction. There is no intent on my part.

Unless the McCanns purposefully left the children alone so Madeleine could be taken as part of a planned abduction, their leaving the children alone is more of a red herring. You can argue that they have poor parenting skills but poor parenting skills alone don't make them liable for her disappearance.

[colomom]

Great post curiousity!

The description you provide of the small, intimate inn with the listening service does not feel like a dangerous situation. It is important to assess the situation and perhaps it would work for you.

But, how does intent work if the resort told the parents previously that there had been break ins and that they should consider a sitter? The line can be blurry, yes?

Couldn't one argue that the risk was too great and therefore the action was negligent? Negligence is not the same as intent but....

BTW, I took the liberty of linking your post to the Rush to Judgment thread, hope you don't mind. I will remove it if you want me to.