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View Full Version : Why Burke's Voice on 911 Call Is The Smoking Gun



TLynn
03-01-2004, 02:38 PM
Actually, I thought the Ramseys admitted Burke was awake (faking sleep) and they were unaware of that fact UNTIL BURKE STATED IT!

I don't think it has anything to do with the 911 tape. It was an Enquirer article which was part of the settlement deal made.

Also, IF the GJ had determined BDI - it's true you can't prosecute a child under the age of 10 - but COME ON, the case wouldn't still be open. $$$ & resources wouldn't still be spent on a "solved case."

BlueCrab
03-01-2004, 02:58 PM
Actually, I thought the Ramseys admitted Burke was awake (faking sleep) and they were unaware of that fact UNTIL BURKE STATED IT!


TLynn,

I hope you didn't buy that bull. How could Burke be fooling his parents by faking sleep when he was downstairs at 5:52 A.M. talking to his parents, as proven by his voice on the enhanced 911 tape?

Whether Burke was faking sleep or not has no relevance. The fact that he was DOWNSTAIRS talking to John and Patsy at 5:52 A.M. is what is relevant. Burke wasn't even in bed.

JMO

Toth
03-01-2004, 03:02 PM
What do the Enhanced Crystal Ball, Enhanced Chicken Entrails, Enhanced Tea Leaves and Enhanced Tabloids show?

Ivy
03-01-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Toth
What do the Enhanced Crystal Ball, Enhanced Chicken Entrails, Enhanced Tea Leaves and Enhanced Tabloids show?
Tell us, Toth. Don't keep us in suspense.

IMO

TLynn
03-01-2004, 03:08 PM
Bluecrab, I believe Burke's voice is on the 911 call. I'm one of those that actually heard the 911 call on a TV show many moons ago.

However, the Ramseys claim they only found out Burke was faking being asleep after he told them. They claim to have known nothing about it up until then.

The Ramseys (as far as I know) still claim Burke was not downstairs and is not on the 911 call.

Moab
03-01-2004, 04:19 PM
The Ransom note is the smoking gun. Burke isn't even a suspect in this case.

It's highly unlikely that any "enhanced" version of the 911 tape would EVER be admitted into evidence, and the Ramseys are not going to be charged anyway.

There are 2 enhanced versions that say different things.

Aerospace and who else?

poco
03-01-2004, 04:32 PM
SO..... where might one go to hear the tape and decide for themselves???

Toth
03-01-2004, 04:49 PM
SO..... where might one go to hear the tape and decide for themselves???Those who hear mysterious clicks, space aliens or Burke's voice have already decided for themselves prior to hearing the tape.

K777angel
03-01-2004, 04:57 PM
Those who hear mysterious clicks, space aliens or Burke's voice have already decided for themselves prior to hearing the tape.

Much the same as those announcing the polygraph (paid) "results" of John and Patsy Ramsey??

No, the administrators of those polygraphs had MUCH to gain by announcing favorable results for the Ramseys. (m$ney and fame).

The Areospace Corp.? Nothing to gain by "hearing" things that were not there. Keep in mind - this analysis was done with the 911 tape early, early, early into the case - BEFORE it really became what we know it to be today.

We view this case now after seven years of publicity and activity and scandal in the investigation and case.
This 911 tape analysis and enhancement was done at a time when things were new and fresh and many of the rumours (particularly about Burke being involved) had not even begun.

Ivy
03-01-2004, 05:08 PM
It'll be interesting to see how many remarks on this thread will end up posted at The Swamp on the "Libeling Burke" thread, as per *******'s request.

IMO

Shylock
03-01-2004, 05:12 PM
SO..... where might one go to hear the tape and decide for themselves???

Tricia still has the tape up on FFJ. You can download a copy here: http://www.jonbenetramsey.org/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

Happy listening!

Shylock
03-01-2004, 05:16 PM
Those who hear mysterious clicks, space aliens or Burke's voice have already decided for themselves prior to hearing the tape.
Sorry Toth, but Burke's voice is not on the tape which was released by Keenan. She redacted John and Burke's voices before releasing the tape on CD. However, you CAN listen to the 4-second gap where their voices used to be if it will make you happy.

BlueCrab
03-01-2004, 05:32 PM
IF the GJ had determined BDI - it's true you can't prosecute a child under the age of 10 - but COME ON, the case wouldn't still be open. $$$ & resources wouldn't still be spent on a "solved case."

TLynn,

Murder cases are never closed until solved. But Boulder authorities can't come right out and say the case is solved if children under 10 are involved without revealing the names of the children -- which is illegal in Colorado. It appears to be a catch-22 situation.

There hasn't been any big money budgeted for an active investigation of the Ramsey murder since the grand jury ended its term in October of 1999 and, IMO, solved it. Boulder spent $531,000 on the case in 1997 and $631,000 in 1998. It dropped to $238,000 in 1999 and to $146,000 in 2000 as residual maintence costs lingered because of the cases' high profile.

IMO the GJ solved the murder in 1999, kids too young to prosecute were involved, but Boulder hasn't been able to bring down the curtain and turn out the lights. It's just as well, because an adult accomplice may have slipped through the cracks unnoticed by the GJ's investigators.

JMO

poco
03-01-2004, 05:32 PM
Tricia still has the tape up on FFJ. You can download a copy here: http://www.jonbenetramsey.org/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

Happy listening!

Heard a little bit of it, but not much, it kept flickering between Play and Buffering and I couldn't get it to do much.....

Shylock
03-01-2004, 06:12 PM
Heard a little bit of it, but not much, it kept flickering between Play and Buffering and I couldn't get it to do much.....
You need to save it on your computer and then play it, instead of trying to listen to it in "streaming" mode.

Ivy
03-01-2004, 06:45 PM
911 Operator : How old is your daughter?

Patsy: Six years old. She's blonde, and she's six years old.

Why didn't Patsy just say, "Six"?

Another thing that bugs me is that after Patsy said, "We have a kidnapping," (which is a strange way for a civilian to put it) she mentioned the note before she said who had been kidnapped.

Patsy: There was a note left, and our daughter's gone.

Obviously telling the operator about the phony note was of foremost importance to Patsy, and so was emphasizing the kidnapping concept.

IMO

Ivy
03-01-2004, 07:14 PM
New post because I can't get Edit to work.

I think Patsy throwing in that JonBenet was blond is an indication that Patsy had gone over in her mind what questions she thought the operator would ask and was sure she'd ask for a physical description of JonBenet. This was not a spur of the moment call. It was planned out as well as it could be, without knowing for sure what the operator would ask.

IMO

philamena
03-01-2004, 07:18 PM
I agree with you all the way on your last post Ivy.

Toth
03-01-2004, 07:25 PM
I see nothing at all wrong. The call did not sound rehearsed and the transcript does not make it seem that way. Telling the young age of the child gives the police not only a sense of urgency but a sort of 'description' of the height.

Saying there is a note is a good way of ending any sort of time-wasting speculation about did she runaway or does she have a favorite neighbor she might have gone to visit.

Patsy was interested in getting police there FAST and I think she did a far, far better job than that dumb phone operator who did not seem to realize this was indeed a kidnapping and she should get help there NOW.

Ivy
03-01-2004, 07:36 PM
Toth, why did Patsy hang up on the 911 operator?

I think it was because Patsy didn't want to be asked any more questions. She'd given her spiel, which contained all the info she wanted to give. If the operator had started asking more questions, Patsy might have flubbed up and said something incriminating. Besides, Patsy had to hurry and call friends to come over and mess up the crime scene and provide a buffer between the Rs and the cops, and maybe even find JonBenet's body.

IMO

Nehemiah
03-01-2004, 08:00 PM
Good posts, Ivy. Something about that 911 call bothers me, but I can't put my finger on it.

IMO

K777angel
03-01-2004, 08:24 PM
Good posts, Ivy. Something about that 911 call bothers me, but I can't put my finger on it.

IMO

When I heard the actual 911 call I did think that Patsy sounded genuinely freaked out and in shock. But what those emotions stemmed from - we cannot truly know. Even if they WERE involved in the crime/staging - she would obviously STILL be in shock and scared out of her pants - about what was very likely going to happen over the next few hours. Depending on when the cops caught on.....

I think the "We have a kidnapping" is very, very strange.

Also, I have always found it odd that Patsy mutters "Help ME Jesus, Help ME Jesus" rather than "Help US Jesus, Help US Jesus" which would have been the mindset given the "kidnapping for ransom" situation she AND John were in.
Afterall - the note was written to John. Yet she asks God to help HER.
I think it is telling.
Her fear at that moment was something like this: "Oh my! Now I've actually placed that 911 call. The cops are actually coming to the HOUSE! JonBenet's body is lying dead downstairs! When will they find it? What questions are they going to ask? What am I going to say? Will they arrest me right away? We better call friends over to stay with Burke in case we are hauled off right away.... I'm SOOOO scared!!"

Help US Jesus would have made more sense. "How can WE get her back? What do they want from US? WE didn't hear anything. WE are so helpless.
WE have to find a solution here. WE are scared. WE need a miracle!"
IF JonBenet had truly been kidnapped by an intruder.

BlueCrab
03-01-2004, 08:43 PM
Also, I have always found it odd that Patsy mutters "Help ME Jesus, Help ME Jesus" rather than "Help US Jesus, Help US Jesus" which would have been the mindset given the "kidnapping for ransom" situation she AND John were in.Afterall - the note was written to John. Yet she asks God to help HER.I think it is telling. Help US Jesus would have made more sense. How can WE get her back?


Since it was supposed to be a kidnapping with JonBenet likely still alive and they didn't know where she was and how much danger she was in, it seems to me Patsy should have been saying "Help her Jesus, help her Jesus".

JMO

Ivy
03-01-2004, 08:53 PM
I agree Patsy sounded genuninely freaked out and in shock. I think anyone would be freaking out under the circumstances, even if they themselves were the killer or were covering up for him.

I always took Patsy's "Help me Jesus" as an indication she was struggling for the emotional strength to pull off the coverup without breaking down and blowing it.

IMO

River
03-01-2004, 09:38 PM
******* has asked her minions to visit other forums and grab BDI posts and post them at the Swamp.

IMO

She'd better not even consider taking a post from this private forum. I'll have a field day with her server on that issue.

BlueCrab
03-01-2004, 09:45 PM
I agree Patsy sounded genuninely freaked out and in shock. I think anyone would be freaking out under the circumstances, even if they themselves were the killer or were covering up for him.

I always took Patsy's "Help me Jesus" as an indication she was struggling for the emotional strength to pull off the coverup without breaking down and blowing it.

IMO


I agree Ivy. IMO Patsy had just acted out the most important stage play of her career. Patsy perceived she needed Jesus to give her the strength to successfully pull off the performance of a lifetime during the 911 call and be able to survive the emotional aftermath. Patsy sounded totally drained when the 911 call was over and she abruptly hung up (so she thought) and gasped "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus".

JMO

K777angel
03-02-2004, 12:43 PM
I agree Ivy. IMO Patsy had just acted out the most important stage play of her career. Patsy perceived she needed Jesus to give her the strength to successfully pull off the performance of a lifetime during the 911 call and be able to survive the emotional aftermath. Patsy sounded totally drained when the 911 call was over and she abruptly hung up (so she thought) and gasped "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus".

JMO

Again, the first responding officer's eye-witness description of Patsy (and John) Ramsey is vitally important.
WHAT did her face look like? Was it fully made up - but with very puffy red eyes? As if she'd been crying for hours?
Or was she crying at all at this point?
What about John?
How did they act in those FEW minutes after the officer first arrived and began his search of the house?
Did they try and distract him in any way away from the basement? But realizing they couldn't be "too" obvious - let him go ahead and look there?
Just WHAT was their demeanor?
Were they asking his advice on how to proceed about the most anticipated thing that should have been on their minds at that time: THE PHONE CALL from the "kidnappers"?
This was the ONLY link known to them to JonBenet - via the note.
They should have been OBSESSED with that note and promised phone call.
But what has been reported - and by officers ON THE SCENE - is that the note was IGNORED - it lay strewn on the floor. And when Det. Arndt asked the men there - including John Ramsey - just WHO they thought "could" be involved - everyone had an opinion - but John remained SILENT.
Then - the officer reported that when the magic time of 10:00am came and went with no phone call from the "kidnappers" - there was no reaction from the Ramseys.
HUH?
So - they ignored the note. They ignored the crucial time range for the phone call regarding their precious daughter that was supposed to come in.

"Help ME Jesus" I think, and have always felt - was just that.
Help ME pull this off. For I may crack.....

Nehemiah
03-02-2004, 01:25 PM
I think the "We have a kidnapping" is very, very strange.

Also, I have always found it odd that Patsy mutters "Help ME Jesus, Help ME Jesus" rather than "Help US Jesus, Help US Jesus" which would have been the mindset given the "kidnapping for ransom" situation she AND John were in.
Afterall - the note was written to John. Yet she asks God to help HER.

I could envision Patsy saying "Help ME, Jesus" if she senses that John is always the calm and collected one and that she is usually the emotional basket case type reactor. I think she was feeling the need to have strength herself, knowing that John was stronger emotionally.

IMO

K777angel
03-02-2004, 04:23 PM
I could envision Patsy saying "Help ME, Jesus" if she senses that John is always the calm and collected one and that she is usually the emotional basket case type reactor. I think she was feeling the need to have strength herself, knowing that John was stronger emotionally.

IMO

Had this comment by Patsy been overheard later in the day your statement might be more applicable. But because we are talking about the very moment she hung up the phone after calling 911 - this puts her mindset in a different perspective.
Had there truly been a kidnapping with a note addressed to John to get money and we will return your daughter - Patsy would have had a "we" mentality at that moment when reporting the crime.
Instead - her mentality is focused on helping "ME" Jesus. Calling on Him to help "her."

TLynn
03-08-2004, 05:16 AM
Sissi,

How do you answer to Smit re: the open window - which never was?

Toth
03-08-2004, 11:32 AM
Lou Smit was not "on the team".
He did not view the goal as getting the Ramseys; he viewed it as investigating the murder.
Even DA-Hunter who had hired Smit out of a field of 28 candidates ignored Lou Smit and continued to go after the Ramseys, albeit with more restraint than the gung-ho BPD who wanted to just slap them into a cell and watch them crumble.

Shylock
03-08-2004, 11:54 AM
This is Lou Smit.
His reputation and experience speak for him.


Maybe that WAS Lou Smit. Now Smit has been reduced to nothing but a limelight-seeker who will do and say anything to make himself standout so he can tell himself he's still important..
-He ignores crucial evidence, like the pineapple and 911 tape.
-He makes up his own evidence, like the pineapple being served out of a tupperware bowl, and the "disturbance" at the window, when he knows full well the filthy window sill shows nobody went in that window.
-He prefers delusional ideas like stun gun use over considering the obvious suspects who were in the house.
-And he shows the world that he is technically ignorant by claiming an electrical arc can turn a person's skin blue.

Whatever Lou Smit might have been, is a far cry from the delusional old publicity hound he is now. And it's sad that a nice little girl who was murdered will never receive any justice--in part because of some senile old fart who should have been in Arizona playing shuffleboard.

IMO

Toth
03-08-2004, 12:26 PM
>Maybe that WAS Lou Smit. Now Smit has been reduced to nothing but a limelight-seeker who will do and say anything to make himself standout so he can tell himself he's still important..
.........No one else sees such a profound change in his character.

>when he knows full well the filthy window sill shows nobody went in that window.
There is evidence that some debris may have been brought in by the intruder.

>He prefers delusional ideas like stun gun use
Such delusional ideas are also preferred by experienced forensic investigators.
>in part because of some senile old fart who should have been in Arizona playing shuffleboard.
Lou Smit prefers 'Seasoned Investigator' to senile old fart, but has been called far worse.

Shylock
03-08-2004, 12:57 PM
There is evidence that some debris may have been brought in by the intruder.

Thank you Toth, that is exactly the type of delusional hogwash that Smit promotes which completely discredits anything that comes out of his mouth!

A window that was broken for MONTHS - and a styrofoam packing peanut that could have blown in MONTHS before the crime, has deLOUsional Smit making claims of "intruder" evidence. Never mind the fact that the window sill is filthy and shows droplet marks from the last rain WEEKS before the day of the crime. Or how about a mark on the wall that again could have been there for months, along with broken glass from the window which was never cleaned up because the basement was a complete pig sty.
"Ignore reality and go with the fantasy", that's obviously Smit's motto.

The way to judge Smit is to compare him to his peers. In no other murder case has a homicide detective ignored the factual evidence and based his case on theoretical evidence which can't even be dated to the week of the crime. Smit might make a good Hollywood script writer, but by LE professional standards he fails miserably as a detective.

BlueCrab
03-08-2004, 02:39 PM
This sort of skepticism is EXACTLY what is warranted here. Indeed, the only "on the record" source for the claim that Burke's voice is on the tape is STEVE THOMAS! There has been no independent corroboration of this (even off the record!) by any of the people involved in enhancing the tape, by the DA's office or by an any LE official or other individuals connected to GJ. Indeed, the only other independent accounts allude to there being a disagreement in interpretation of what these voices allegedly say. It's very clear from the remnants we do have available that people hear what they want to hear (including Steve Thomas!).

I am not familiar enough with the case to start a list of the known lies Steve Thomas has told, but I do know that there are BDIers such as BlueCrab who are smart enough to see through Steve Thomas's spinning and selective presentation of evidence to realize that his PDI theory doesn't hold water. Yet mysteriously, these same individuals rely with 100% confidence on the credibility of Thomas's claims about Burke's being on the tape because they "need" his account about Burke being on the tape to be true in order to support their own BDI theory.


I agree with DW that Steve Thomas didn't impress me with his truthfulness. Thomas flat-out lied about Patsy being the only one of 73 persons who were examined by the CBI who couldn't be excluded as the writer of the ransom note. Thomas was the BPD's main "leaker" of evidence (he was, for instance, the person who in 1997 leaked the first responder's report to Ann Bardach of Vanity Fair). Thomas' lies and misquoting of the evidence led to his being fired, even though he was allowed to save face and go out in a blaze of glory with his resignation letter dated on JonBenet's birthday.

Thomas' "investigation" was centered on his PDI theory at the near exclusion of all other suspects. He didn't consider John or Burke or an intruder as serious options.

Thomas gave John and Burke passes to "get out of jail free" and therefore didn't interpret the voices at the end of the 911 tape as damning evidence that Burke was being shielded when all three Ramseys lied about Burke being in bed when he was actually up and talking to his parents.

JMO

TLynn
03-08-2004, 03:09 PM
ST's PDI theory is as good as any other...actually, better - since all evidence points toward her.

little1
03-08-2004, 03:20 PM
The way to judge Smit is to compare him to his peers. In no other murder case has a homicide detective ignored the factual evidence and based his case on theoretical evidence which can't even be dated to the week of the crime. Smit might make a good Hollywood script writer, but by LE professional standards he fails miserably as a detective.

Does that mean he should actually be judged by people who have worked a homocide beofre as opposed to every single detective assigned in the Ramsey investigation?

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves talking about an old man who was just trying to avenge a little girls death.

The questions Smit asked were questions that the BPD refused to acknowledge. If the BPD had investigated the crime the way it should have been, instead of ONLY looking at the R's early in the investigation and NO one else, he probably would not have had to ask those questions.

Shylock
03-08-2004, 04:39 PM
You guys should be ashamed of yourselves talking about an old man who was just trying to avenge a little girls death.

Oh baloney...This washed-up old has-been and his stupid ideas is one of the reasons there will never be any justice for that little girl. This case really didn't need a toothpick-sucking old man with a hillbilly vocabulary that thinks he's Wyatt Earp.

little1
03-08-2004, 05:26 PM
Oh baloney...This washed-up old has-been and his stupid ideas is one of the reasons there will never be any justice for that little girl. This case really didn't need a toothpick-sucking old man with a hillbilly vocabulary that thinks he's Wyatt Earp.


Um, obviously they did--the case isn't solved yet. Obviously this case neede more than that. You can be disrespectful all you want towards the man, it just makes your discussions seem weaker.

How have his ideas inhibited justice for JBR? Could it also not have been the f****d up crime scene? Or the bumbling cops? Or maybe the parents? Or the fact that Eller would not even TRY to look at anyone besides the Ramseys? There are many reasons that this case went wrong, he is not one of them, IMO. You know, if we went by record alone, Smit would blow every detective on this case out of the water.

Toltec
03-08-2004, 06:07 PM
Um, obviously they did--the case isn't solved yet. Obviously this case neede more than that. You can be disrespectful all you want towards the man, it just makes your discussions seem weaker.

How have his ideas inhibited justice for JBR? Could it also not have been the f****d up crime scene? Or the bumbling cops? Or maybe the parents? Or the fact that Eller would not even TRY to look at anyone besides the Ramseys? There are many reasons that this case went wrong, he is not one of them, IMO. You know, if we went by record alone, Smit would blow every detective on this case out of the water.

That is total hogwash...hundreds of people were looked at. I am tired of hearing that the Ramseys were the only ones looked at.

Steve was not the only investigator on the team. Steve's job was to interview employees at Access Graphics, not gather evidence in the home. He was not on the team until three days after the murder.

Steve heard the 911 tape in it's entirety and why would he lie about hearing Burke's voice on the tape? If he claimed to hear Patsy say "Help me Jesus" (WHICH IS CLEARLY HEARD ON THE TAPE) then why would he lie about hearing Burke and John?

WHY LIE????

Shylock
03-08-2004, 11:09 PM
There are many reasons that this case went wrong, he is not one of them, IMO. You know, if we went by record alone, Smit would blow every detective on this case out of the water.

Which record are you talking about Little1? Are you talking about Smit's record for STEALING from the people he works for? Yeah, Smit got lucky...the same idiot who hired him (Hunter) was still in office, or Smit would have been taken away in irons and thrown in jail for stealing case evidence.

Not only is Smit a delusional old coot who helped the killers get away, he's a common petty thief.

Shylock
03-08-2004, 11:16 PM
Steve heard the 911 tape in it's entirety and why would he lie about hearing Burke's voice on the tape? If he claimed to hear Patsy say "Help me Jesus" (WHICH IS CLEARLY HEARD ON THE TAPE) then why would he lie about hearing Burke and John?
WHY LIE????

Exactly right Toltec. Steve Thomas had no reason to lie about the 911 tape. What's more, people don't realize that it takes time to produce a book, print it, and get it on store shelves. What if Thomas HAD lied and the 911 tape was released to the public a week or two before his book went on sale. Wouldn't he have looked stupid. I don't think Thomas or anyone else would have taken that chance.

Thomas' transcript follows the released 911 tape perfectly. There is no reason to doubt John and Burke are on the original 911 recording.

BlueCrab
03-09-2004, 12:14 AM
Exactly right Toltec. Steve Thomas had no reason to lie about the 911 tape.


Correct. And there were others in addition to Steve who heard the enhanced tape. Patsy's, John's, and Burke's voices are on the end of that original tape brought back from Aerospace Corporation. There were no dissenters among those who heard it.

The BPD kept the 911 tape evidence a top secret, and didn't even trust the D.A.'s office. They kept it from Alex Hunter until after the interviews because they were afraid Hunter would tip off the Ramseys and enable the three of them, John, Patsy, and Burke, to avoid the trap during the interviews.

JMO

little1
03-09-2004, 11:22 AM
Which record are you talking about Little1? Are you talking about Smit's record for STEALING from the people he works for? Yeah, Smit got lucky...the same idiot who hired him (Hunter) was still in office, or Smit would have been taken away in irons and thrown in jail for stealing case evidence.

Not only is Smit a delusional old coot who helped the killers get away, he's a common petty thief.


Um, his record of solving cases. Duh. He was kown for going back in and re reading case files to find anything missed before. That is usually common in a cold case file. Duh. It is also common in a regular homocide, which Eller did not require his detectives to do. Duh. If you call that stealing, fine by me.

MANY, MANY, MANY people in this case leaked to the press, including the BPD. All of them in fact. I don't know what you mean by stealing. WHat evidence did he steal?

Shylock
03-09-2004, 12:17 PM
Um, his record of solving cases. Duh. He was kown for going back in and re reading case files to find anything missed before. That is usually common in a cold case file. Duh. It is also common in a regular homocide, which Eller did not require his detectives to do. Duh. If you call that stealing, fine by me.
I don't know what you mean by stealing. WHat evidence did he steal?

Smit was not known for anything--you know nothing about him. He got lucky one time in the Heather Dawn Church case when he discovered a letter from a Florida LE agency in the case file that suggested they look at one perticular suspect. That letter had been overlooked and the suspect turned out to be the killer.

You don't even know about Smit stealing case evidence when he resigned from the Ramsey case:
"When Smit left the District Attorney's Office, he took electronic copies of several crime-scene photos and other evidence with him."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/26lrams.html

Professional? - Hardy...Smit is nothing but a common petty thief. If his buddy Hunter wasn't DA, Smit would have been carted off to jail. Hunter dropped the case against Smit.

little1
03-09-2004, 02:45 PM
Smit was not known for anything--you know nothing about him. He got lucky one time in the Heather Dawn Church case when he discovered a letter from a Florida LE agency in the case file that suggested they look at one perticular suspect. That letter had been overlooked and the suspect turned out to be the killer.

You don't even know about Smit stealing case evidence when he resigned from the Ramsey case:
"When Smit left the District Attorney's Office, he took electronic copies of several crime-scene photos and other evidence with him."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/26lrams.html

Professional? - Hardy...Smit is nothing but a common petty thief. If his buddy Hunter wasn't DA, Smit would have been carted off to jail. Hunter dropped the case against Smit.


I am going to use the website above to prove you wrong. (Did SMit dump you in a past life or something You have alot of anger issues regarding him)

http://66.147.65.175/news/jon46.htm

This states, and this is his record, I don't think very many refute this, out of 200 homocides he worked over his career, he solved around 9 out of 10. You cannot deny this. I don't know what personal vendetta you have for the manm, but you really need to let go.

Shylock
03-09-2004, 03:42 PM
out of 200 homocides he worked over his career, he solved around 9 out of 10.

LOL...What, you think THAT is a good record?
In case you can't figure it out, that translates to a 96% career FAILURE rate!
I sure hope you don't invest any money with a stock broker that has a 96% failure rate, or you'll be living out of a shopping cart and selling pencils under a bridge somewhere!...Hahaha

Toltec
03-09-2004, 06:24 PM
Smit was not known for anything--you know nothing about him. He got lucky one time in the Heather Dawn Church case when he discovered a letter from a Florida LE agency in the case file that suggested they look at one perticular suspect. That letter had been overlooked and the suspect turned out to be the killer.

You don't even know about Smit stealing case evidence when he resigned from the Ramsey case:
"When Smit left the District Attorney's Office, he took electronic copies of several crime-scene photos and other evidence with him."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/26lrams.html

Professional? - Hardy...Smit is nothing but a common petty thief. If his buddy Hunter wasn't DA, Smit would have been carted off to jail. Hunter dropped the case against Smit.

Smit is still looking for the proverbial fingerprint on the window.

River
03-09-2004, 06:38 PM
My personal feelings on Smit is that he knows that the Ramsey's are guilty and that he flat-out refuses to admit it.

The Ramseys aren't still under the umbrella of suspicion for nothing.

SisterSocks
03-10-2004, 03:42 PM
My personal feelings on Smit is that he knows that the Ramsey's are guilty and that he flat-out refuses to admit it.

The Ramseys aren't still under the umbrella of suspicion for nothing.


I disagree about Smit River--- I think he really believes they are Not Guilty

Socks

Britt
03-10-2004, 04:35 PM
I disagree about Smit River--- I think he really believes they are Not Guilty
I think he believes they are innocent the way some kids believe in Santa... they don't really believe but badly want to, so they don't put much effort into figuring out what the truth is.

Toth
03-10-2004, 05:55 PM
My personal feelings on Smit is that he knows that the Ramsey's are guilty and that he flat-out refuses to admit it. That does not comport with his past behavior or his fine reputation amongst his fellow investigators. Do you think DA-Hunter selected Smit from that final list of 28 candidates because Hunter wanted some absolute dolt? Until the re-invigorated DA-Keenan investigation, Lou Smit was working three days a week as a sheriff's investigator in Colorado Springs: do you think the sheriff there wanted an investigator who was stupid?

little1
03-10-2004, 05:56 PM
That does not comport with his past behavior or his fine reputation amongst his fellow investigators. Do you think DA-Hunter selected Smit from that final list of 28 candidates because Hunter wanted some absolute dolt? Until the re-invigorated DA-Keenan investigation, Lou Smit was working three days a week as a sheriff's investigator in Colorado Springs: do you think the sheriff there wanted an investigator who was stupid?


Well, I tried to tell Shylock of his record, she said he had a 96% failure rate at solving cases.

LovelyPigeon
03-10-2004, 05:58 PM
Smit had, and still has, an excellent reputation among law enforcement. During his career he solved "90 percent of the 136 homicides he investigated in his career." You can disagree with him about his conclusions regarding the Ramsey case, but his reputation stands--he had a fine career as a detective.

It only takes minutes to search and find articles about Smit's uncanny ability to see what others missed, and be able to solve crimes. The Church case was just one of more than a hundred such cases.

It was because Smith had such an impressive record for solving homicides that the Boulder district attorney hired him on the Ramsey murder case. -
http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2002/10/01/48hours/whoswho523935_0_4_person.shtml

little1
03-10-2004, 06:20 PM
That's what I said, apparently some have a problem with Smit. Regardless, his record speaks for itself.

Toltec
03-10-2004, 06:54 PM
Well whatever Lou Smit believes...he is still actively on the case. He is on a personal mission to find the killer. Although he lied when he showed the country a picture of a wide-open basement window, I believe he is passionate about this case as is Steve Thomas.

vicktor
03-11-2004, 01:14 AM
My personal feelings on Smit is that he knows that the Ramsey's are guilty and that he flat-out refuses to admit it.

The Ramseys aren't still under the umbrella of suspicion for nothing.

A newspaper article in the Denver Post about 2 years ago detailed Smit's activities in an interview. He decribed how he would work on the case often all evening, using his computer. He said that he had 60-70 people that needed to be checked out. Why make a statement like that if he was doing otherwise and it became known to his frends and acquaintances, making him look bad.

BrotherMoon
03-11-2004, 03:05 AM
Why make a statement like that if he was doing otherwise and it became known to his frends and acquaintances, making him look bad.

Because he's off his rocker looking for the marbles he lost while playing with a deck that's short a few loose screws. :crazy:

Barbara
03-11-2004, 10:31 AM
In the real world:

Even the best detectives with beautiful records and great respect from their peers make mistakes and errors in judgement

Even the best doctors with impeccable records make wrong diagnoses

Even the best accountants can make a mathematical error

So no matter what Smit's record in the past may be, he IMO, has made an error in this case

In the real world:

Even parents with no DOCUMENTED pathology or mental illness or depression can snap and do really bad things.

The real world doesn't work by statistical odds every time

Shylock
03-11-2004, 11:50 AM
Smit had, and still has, an excellent reputation among law enforcement. During his career he solved [I]"90 percent of the 136 homicides he investigated in his career.

LovelyPigeon, I suggest you and Little1 get together and get your numbers right. Little1 says Smit only solved 9 or 10 of the 200 cases he worked on and she posted some article to prove it. That's a 96 percent career failure rate. HARDLY anything to be bragging about. Most people would call that one of the worst employment records they've ever heard.

Here are Little1's exact words, copied from her post:

http://66.147.65.175/news/jon46.htm
This states, and this is his record, I don't think very many refute this, out of 200 homocides he worked over his career, he solved around 9 out of 10. You cannot deny this.

little1
03-11-2004, 01:55 PM
Well whatever Lou Smit believes...he is still actively on the case. He is on a personal mission to find the killer. Although he lied when he showed the country a picture of a wide-open basement window, I believe he is passionate about this case as is Steve Thomas.


I think both he AND Thomas were very passionate about the case and finding the killer, I think they just locked into both their respective theories and wouldn't budge. IMO, they both wouldn't give an inch OR listen to each others evidence that may or may not include an intruder.

little1
03-11-2004, 01:56 PM
LovelyPigeon, I suggest you and Little1 get together and get your numbers right. Little1 says Smit only solved 9 or 10 of the 200 cases he worked on and she posted some article to prove it. That's a 96 percent career failure rate. HARDLY anything to be bragging about. Most people would call that one of the worst employment records they've ever heard.

Here are Little1's exact words, copied from her post:


Exactly, read the WHOLE sentence. It says out of 200, 9 OUT OF 10 were resolved. NOT 9 or 10, 9 OUT OF 10. Do you understand now?

Shylock
03-11-2004, 02:15 PM
Exactly, read the WHOLE sentence. It says out of 200, 9 OUT OF 10 were resolved. NOT 9 or 10, 9 OUT OF 10. Do you understand now?

My apologies if I read your sentence wrong. Unfortunately, after trying several times I have been unable to get the URL you posted to load, in fact the server doesn't even respond for me - so I can't confirm your claims.

Of course this still has nothing to do with Smit being nothing but a petty thief.

Shylock
03-11-2004, 02:23 PM
Well whatever Lou Smit believes...he is still actively on the case.

Toltec, we seriously have to question if Smit is really "actively on the case". I think he might have been brought in for a couple days to give his opinion to Tom Ben-nett and then he was sent home with a "thanks, we'll call ya if we need ya" handshake.

Why? Because I can't believe Keenan could possibly be that stupid. Smit stole sensitive case evidence the last time he worked on the case and wound up in court because of it. Would Keenan REALLY be that stupid to let Smit anywhere NEAR the case evidence again? If so, then Keenan should be taken out in front of the Boulder courthouse and publicly garroted.

This is another reason I think the whole "new investigation" is just a ruse to keep the Rammer's ambulance chaser at bay.

little1
03-11-2004, 02:43 PM
My apologies if I read your sentence wrong. Unfortunately, after trying several times I have been unable to get the URL you posted to load, in fact the server doesn't even respond for me - so I can't confirm your claims.

Of course this still has nothing to do with Smit being nothing but a petty thief.


I know it worked a couple of days ago, I might have posted it wrong. (DOH)

Anywho, I personally think that ALL sides of this case have been manipulated by ALL parties involved. PR and JR leaked info, BPD leaked info, DA's Office leaked info. It's hard to say what happened exactly to get this case so far off track. I believe that it could have been solved easily had everyone involved done at least 2/5 of thier jobs. (One of whcih is keeping your mouth SHUT) It's frustrating, ya know?

Toltec
03-11-2004, 06:51 PM
Toltec, we seriously have to question if Smit is really "actively on the case". I think he might have been brought in for a couple days to give his opinion to Tom Ben-nett and then he was sent home with a "thanks, we'll call ya if we need ya" handshake.

Why? Because I can't believe Keenan could possibly be that stupid. Smit stole sensitive case evidence the last time he worked on the case and wound up in court because of it. Would Keenan REALLY be that stupid to let Smit anywhere NEAR the case evidence again? If so, then Keenan should be taken out in front of the Boulder courthouse and publicly garroted.

This is another reason I think the whole "new investigation" is just a ruse to keep the Rammer's ambulance chaser at bay.

Last I heard Shylock is that Lou Smit is working personally on the case...he is not being paid by anyone.

Shylock
03-11-2004, 07:56 PM
Last I heard Shylock is that Lou Smit is working personally on the case...he is not being paid by anyone.
Oh, well he has been doing that for years, since he resigned from the case. I don't think he is involved with the DA's present investigation for the reason I mentioned.