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lorelei
09-10-2007, 05:37 PM
Hey All
I've been reading this thread for a bit, its so sad this couple is still unidentified after all these years. I was wondering if anyone had taken a look at this case- sorry I can't figure out yet how to link directly to the case or pics yet.
Doe Network Case Number 886DMFL James Berkeley Norris
Also there is a myspace set up by his sister.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=155153127
The guy seems to have some similarities to the male victim but disappeared a few years before [while on trip buying drugs in florida]. Probably not him[diff initials etc] but maybe someone with a better eye than me could take a look at the faces and see if they match up at all.

Also I really think that the South America/Cuba angle is a good one. I'm thinking specifically of places like Argentina around that time, with SO many disappearances and obviously no government help to find the people. There are just so many possibilities with this case its hard to know which angle to look at first!

rmf
09-10-2007, 05:44 PM
I think that looking at the watch's origins is a good idea. Now that I'm thinking more and more about the drug angle- it is possible the man got the watch from someone else. It was not unusual for people to trade jewelry or other valuables for coke in those days, so who knows?

There are a ton of forums for watch collectors on the internet, I found some recently when I was researching the railroad watch I inherited from my grandfather. Those folks might be a good resource to try for info on this:

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=5

I wonder how possible it would be to get a digital photo of the watch and watch case to post on the watch forum?

rmf
09-10-2007, 05:48 PM
Hey All
I've been reading this thread for a bit, its so sad this couple is still unidentified after all these years. I was wondering if anyone had taken a look at this case- sorry I can't figure out yet how to link directly to the case or pics yet.
Doe Network Case Number 886DMFL James Berkeley Norris
Also there is a myspace set up by his sister.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=155153127
The guy seems to have some similarities to the male victim but disappeared a few years before [while on trip buying drugs in florida]. Probably not him[diff initials etc] but maybe someone with a better eye than me could take a look at the faces and see if they match up at all.

Also I really think that the South America/Cuba angle is a good one. I'm thinking specifically of places like Argentina around that time, with SO many disappearances and obviously no government help to find the people. There are just so many possibilities with this case its hard to know which angle to look at first!

WOW!

Your missing guy looks like a possibility worth pursuing!! I wonder if the family has seen the story about SC? Can you contact them thru the myspace page and let them know? If he did not have facial hair he may be a very strong possibility!

rmf
09-10-2007, 05:51 PM
Since this fellow probably turned 18 before 1973, if he is an American, he would have had some type draft status. If anyone has access to old draft records maybe his initials could be checked against the rosters.

Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?

BOESP
09-10-2007, 06:57 PM
Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?

It isn't available to the public via the National Archives. The Department of Defense probably has the records and they are private. It probably takes someone in active law enforcement to get access. Or maybe someone who is a retired colonel or someone whose brother is in the FBI. :)

MaryLiz
09-10-2007, 07:35 PM
I think that looking at the watch's origins is a good idea. Now that I'm thinking more and more about the drug angle- it is possible the man got the watch from someone else. It was not unusual for people to trade jewelry or other valuables for coke in those days, so who knows?

There are a ton of forums for watch collectors on the internet, I found some recently when I was researching the railroad watch I inherited from my grandfather. Those folks might be a good resource to try for info on this:

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=5

I wonder how possible it would be to get a digital photo of the watch and watch case to post on the watch forum?


Good work on the info from Verna Moore, I'm glad you called her. I wanted to for a long time but I don't think I could articulate as well as you did...and I can tell she truly was grateful for our interest here at WS.

Speaking of the watch not actually being his...I thought the same thing about the linde star ring!!! What if that wasn't his and JPF weren't HIS initials! I don't want to think like that though. JPF is about all we have to go on to search for him!

phenolred
09-11-2007, 07:31 AM
I was thinking more about the drug angle too. I wonder if maybe he was Columbian, when I think Columbia I think Columbian drug Cartels. COCAINE. So, maybe the JP could be something like JUAN Pablo or something. Isnt Juan the spanish version of JOHN. I need to look and see if Columbia has a missing persons database.

Marie
09-11-2007, 10:20 AM
Sapphire is the birthstone associated with September.

Looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up on. Great information from Verna Moore!

Marie
09-11-2007, 10:22 AM
Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?

The only public records available at this time are of those who died in the war or soon after coming home (from related injuries). It'll probably be another 30 years or so before Vietnam war records become public.

phenolred
09-11-2007, 10:33 AM
I found this guy from sweden the dates are off but I thought he looked like the John Doe esp the hair

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/939dmswe.html

phenolred
09-11-2007, 10:42 AM
I am thinking back to his teeth. It seems hard to believe that if he were the son of a doctor that his teeth would have gotten so bad at such a young age as to need crowns etc etc.
And as somebody touched on before, maybe he was poor younger in life and didnt have routine dental care. Then maybe he started in the drug trade and decided to get his teeth fixed.
I was trying to think of some Latino surnames and I came up with Florez Flores and Fernandez so far.
Does anyone think he looks Columbian possibly? Also I know that it has been mentioned that he was athletic and probably played sports because of the 2, 2 inch scars on his shoulder.
What sports are popular there? Soccer, but I wouldnt think shoulder injurys would be common in soccer, what about Lacrosse or Rugby or????

Marie
09-11-2007, 11:01 AM
Sorry, I meant date code. I'm reading and posting on here when I'm supposed to be working so I was in a hurry!

It was from the Doe Network where it said the watch was made in 1968. Here's the link to John Doe's page on the Doe Network and the statement about the watch. Thanks!

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

Jewelry: He wore a Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 on his left hand. Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed. A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.

Thanks Liz. I need to re-read the Doe records :)

That date really does fit with his estimated age, assuming it was a graduation gift to him and it's his initials. Made in 1968, so he could have graduated in 68, 69, 70... close to that time.

phenolred
09-11-2007, 11:05 AM
Maybe he smuggled the drugs in from Mexico, into New Mexico where maybe she bought the rings and he got the matches....

BOESP
09-11-2007, 11:14 AM
I am thinking back to his teeth. It seems hard to believe that if he were the son of a doctor that his teeth would have gotten so bad at such a young age as to need crowns etc etc.
And as somebody touched on before, maybe he was poor younger in life and didnt have routine dental care. Then maybe he started in the drug trade and decided to get his teeth fixed.
I was trying to think of some Latino surnames and I came up with Florez Flores and Fernandez so far.
Does anyone think he looks Columbian possibly? Also I know that it has been mentioned that he was athletic and probably played sports because of the 2, 2 inch scars on his shoulder.
What sports are popular there? Soccer, but I wouldnt think shoulder injurys would be common in soccer, what about Lacrosse or Rugby or????

He doesn't look Columbian unless he is a very rare exception. :snooty: The height and build is wrong, the hair is wrong (including fairly smooth looking lower arms), the facial structure is wrong. He looks generally western European to me.

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 11:18 AM
RMF~ Great job on contacting Verna Moore and getting additional information!

Looking back on the 70s, cocaine distribution was widespread. This John Doe didn't neccessarily have to be from Columbia or anywhere specific to be neck deep into the trade enough to have him executed. All he needed at the time was vehicle and a base to distribute. If he failed to produce either the money or the drugs, the people above him would have had no problem with taking care of the situation. The drug runner theory does sound plausible and Ms. Moore's input adds substantial weight to it.

It would make sense then he was feeding the KOA campground guy a pack of lies about the wealthy father if he were into the drug trade to explain a nice car perhaps. Obviously, at the time of his death, John Doe was short of funds due to his offer to sell the jewelry, but the car was a neccessity.

He could have already been running from a drug deal gone bad and the reason he was "laying low" at a KOA campground to begin with. Since he was only down to selling the jewelry, it tells me their money ran out not long before. They could have stayed at various hotels along the corridor until then. Maybe they were tracking him and finally caught up with him...which means they had to have clues along the way to find him within the drug community. So what are we overlooking?

BOESP
09-11-2007, 11:23 AM
... So what are we overlooking?

Excellent post, SS.

Maybe a connection to Raleigh, North Carolina? It was a noted cocaine center in the 1970s.

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Hmmm...my son lives there. Perhaps I could talk him into doing some research for us. I would like to know what was going on around the area from a couple of weeks before until their deaths. Concerts or other things which would have drawn a high volume of people.

What else do we need to inquire about? Crimes in the area at the time? Burnt vehicles found? Other deaths resembling these?

BOESP
09-11-2007, 12:23 PM
Hmmm...my son lives there. Perhaps I could talk him into doing some research for us. I would like to know what was going on around the area from a couple of weeks before until their deaths. Concerts or other things which would have drawn a high volume of people.

What else do we need to inquire about? Crimes in the area at the time? Burnt vehicles found? Other deaths resembling these?

Missing persons? Drug arrests? Abandoned cars found?

If microfilmed newspapers are available (and I bet the archives has some from the 1970s) that might help. They may have covered this case even though it was in South Carolina.

Sometimes want-ads will have interesting entries (cryptic messages) but researching those would be an impossible task for one person.

BOESP
09-11-2007, 12:36 PM
Interesting comparisons between the cases.

It would be interesting to know for certain what types of pistol and ammo were used in both cases. And to know if there were ever ballistics comparisons made between these or other cases.

Generally speaking, any pistol or revolver of 38 caliber and smaller could be considered small caliber, while those of .40, .41, .44 and .45 are usually considered large caliber weapons.

A semi-automatic pistol fires each time the trigger is squeezed, and with each shot, a casing is ejected. A revolver, on the other hand, retains its cartridge casings in the cylinder after a shot is fired. Since no casings were located, it is likely that the murder weapons were revolvers of either .38, .32 or .22 caliber - with .38 being the more likely. Revolver bullets are usually soft lead, while bullets fired by Semi-Automatics are more often copper jacketed.

Fired slugs, if recovered at the scene, can be used to determine the type and make of pistol used. They can also be compared to recovered bullets from other crime scenes to determine if there is an exact match.

I'm bumping the above 2005 message because of the good information it contains. I can not find any information stating what caliber bullets were recovered from the couple. If it was a .38, that could suggest a law enforcement weapon from that era. I'm not saying it's so. I'm just saying consider it.

The .22 was often the choice of professional hit men.

I can't quite get a feel for the area as it was back then but it sounds remote. If so, that might also suggest someone familiar and comfortable with the area.

phenolred
09-11-2007, 12:44 PM
The newspaper article linked below states a .357 was matched to this crime:

In 1977 SLED matched bullets from a .357-caliber Magnum with the serial number filed off to bullets taken from the bodies. Entry wound examinations revealed someone shot them in the back of their heads to finish them off.

http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148

iM bumping this

BOESP
09-11-2007, 12:49 PM
iM bumping this

Thanks so much phenolred! A .357 could still be police or a local thug into drugs.

It's interesting, too, that it was near a county line. That can often (purposely) confuse the investigation since cooperation may not the very best between competing powers-that-be. :)

Also, since the .357 was found "locally" a while after the killings, that also suggests "local" involvement, in my opinion (not necessarily cops, but local nonetheless). It's interesting the fellow who had the .357 was from North Carolina.

It might be interesting to see if any missing persons reports for the counties between Latta and Raleigh or available for that era or see if there are any cold cases in those counties.

rmf
09-11-2007, 02:34 PM
This thread is great. There are some great lines of thought going on.

Let me provide a few more details that Verna shared with me. Forgive me for not getting too granular in my other post, but it would have been toooo long:

-Verna states the couple traveled through Santee and stayed at the KOA campground there once before they were killed. (I believe Santee is south of where the couple were found? Do we have any online mapping wizzes here that could map out the Santee Lake area vs the crime scene, because I'm not sure?) The male stated to the campground manager (the person who is now deceased) that he was on his way to Florida. This is when the pool game allegedly took place in which the J.D. told the KOA employee he was Canadian. The employee also alluded that J.D. was carrying a lot of cash and when the KOA guy commented on the ring, the J.D. offered to sell it to him. The J.D. and the girl then came BACK through Sumter county on their way BACK from Florida and this was when they were killed.

If this guy was flashing a wad of cash around, that would make him a target for robbery.

Also, the gun WAS tied to someone who was arrested for DUI. According to Verna, he was a ne'er do well and was involved with shady people- and did not have a lot of control over who was coming in and out of his house at that time. The police investigated him and determined that his wife was in a hospital far away when the killings happened and family members state he was there with her. Police investigated and determined it would have been impossible for him to drive to and from those locations. He was evasive about who he may have loaned the gun to and is now dead also, so there is no way to find out.

If someone lives near to South Carolina I also think that Verna Moore would talk to you in person. She is THAT open about this case in terms of any and all help she can get.

Feel free to post any questions here about this because there may be things Verna mentioned to me that will answer them. We talked for a long time and I took some notes. You can also PM me.

rmf
09-11-2007, 02:46 PM
He looks generally western European to me.

When I spoke to Verna I offered to take information about this case to the National Police in Paris because I will be there on a trip at the end of October. She told me by all means to do it, that it could not hurt. Apparently they did contact Interpol at the time but I am sure whatever information they had on file from back then is long gone. It seems that information from the 70s and 80s has not made a very good transition into the computer age. Things seem to be lost, deleted, incomplete from databases now.

phenolred
09-11-2007, 02:53 PM
Im so glad verna is still there and so open to help. I wonder did you give her a link to our thread about this ? Maybe if she read all the post it could help her.

Ok so with this new information from Verna, if he had the money on him and was on his way to Florida then I think he was going down there to buy the drugs and when he stopped off back in SC with the drugs, maybe he did a little with somebody at the campgrounds like smoked a joint or did a couple of lines of Coke and this person decided to rob them of the drugs, or maybe he had somebodies money to buy the drugs and maybe he got screwed on the drug deal in Florida and when he came back empty handed no money and no drugs somebody got really Pi$$ed and killed them.

I wish so bad we had more clues.....Did Verna say anything about her unshaved legs? Were her underarms also unshaved.

rmf
09-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Im so glad verna is still there and so open to help. I wonder did you give her a link to our thread about this ? Maybe if she read all the post it could help her.

Ok so with this new information from Verna, if he had the money on him and was on his way to Florida then I think he was going down there to buy the drugs and when he stopped off back in SC with the drugs, maybe he did a little with somebody at the campgrounds like smoked a joint or did a couple of lines of Coke and this person decided to rob them of the drugs, or maybe he had somebodies money to buy the drugs and maybe he got screwed on the drug deal in Florida and when he came back empty handed no money and no drugs somebody got really Pi$$ed and killed them.

I wish so bad we had more clues.....Did Verna say anything about her unshaved legs? Were her underarms also unshaved.

I mentioned this site to Verna and she knows about it, but I'm not sure she's discussion forum savvy? I didn't ask her about the underarms because my assumption is that if they were unshaved- it would have been noted along with the legs. We did talk about the legs and she said back in those days she used to see American women with unshaved legs too, so who knows.

One of the psychics that was consulted claimed the girl was from Indiana but extensive checking didn't turn up any leads on people from there, so I think the general conscensus is that the psychic was incorrect.

rmf
09-11-2007, 03:13 PM
Here's an idea:

If you folks would like to post questions, I will make a list and contact Verna again and ask her the questions. How does that sound?

phenolred
09-11-2007, 03:14 PM
I found this map Santee to Locklair Road about 53 miles
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=santee+sc&daddr=S+Locklair+Rd,+Scranton,+Florence,+South+Car olina+29591,+United+States&sll=33.87984,-80.892445&sspn=2.07952,3.114624&ie=UTF8&ll=33.822512,-80.241394&spn=1.040478,1.557312&z=9&om=1

phenolred
09-11-2007, 03:16 PM
Wow that would be weird if she were from Indiana where I'm from.....its worth a shot at looking....at I will think of questions and post them then you can compile a list and talk to verna again that is awesome...

BOESP
09-11-2007, 03:20 PM
When I spoke to Verna I offered to take information about this case to the National Police in Paris because I will be there on a trip at the end of October. She told me by all means to do it, that it could not hurt. Apparently they did contact Interpol at the time but I am sure whatever information they had on file from back then is long gone. It seems that information from the 70s and 80s has not made a very good transition into the computer age. Things seem to be lost, deleted, incomplete from databases now.


All in all, based on your conversations with Verna, it sounds like the Latta folks think they were probably killed by a local.

Even though, to me, he looks Western European, he could still be a citizen of the USA or Canada. I didn't mean to sound like he was necessarily from Europe, just that his ancestry probably was.

By what process did one enter and exit the states via Canada in the 1970s and would the process leave a traceable record?

If you are drug running, why hang around a KOA unless you are waiting for a drop or getting ready to make a drop? I would think you'd drive in, sleep, get out. The couple must have felt comfortable to have stayed twice and conversed with the KOA fellow. Were both stays on return trips from Florida?

rmf
09-11-2007, 05:15 PM
All in all, based on your conversations with Verna, it sounds like the Latta folks think they were probably killed by a local.

Even though, to me, he looks Western European, he could still be a citizen of the USA or Canada. I didn't mean to sound like he was necessarily from Europe, just that his ancestry probably was.

By what process did one enter and exit the states via Canada in the 1970s and would the process leave a traceable record?

If you are drug running, why hang around a KOA unless you are waiting for a drop or getting ready to make a drop? I would think you'd drive in, sleep, get out. The couple must have felt comfortable to have stayed twice and conversed with the KOA fellow. Were both stays on return trips from Florida?

I think that what I got from Verna is that they were killed execution style- so if it was a "local" the person was not afraid to carry out a professional hit.

I think back in the 70s you only needed a driver's license to get across the borders. It was pretty loose then. I doubt they kept any records but I really don't know.

From what she told me, the John Doe had come there once previously and reportedly told the KOA guy he was going to Florida. Who knows if that's where he went or not. The next time, the time they were killed, she did not specify if he stated he was on his way BACK or not. I am also not sure of the amount of time that passed in between visits.

Verna did mention the KOA guy said the girl had a suitcase both times. According to info released to the public, there was no suitcase found at the scene. I'd be fascinated to take a look at the case file and the investigation/report on the guy from the campground.

Gina_M
09-11-2007, 05:27 PM
I got this message via MySpace from someone who is having trouble registering here:

----

I may have a possible match for the female Doe in the Sumpter County case.

She seems a little heavier set and to have blunter features than the Doe, but ...

Her name is Sylvie Ouimet and she is missing from a psych hospital outside of Montréal. Her height is within 1" of the Doe and her coloring is a perfect match. She was 20lbs heavier but she disappeared a year or so before the Doe was found and could easily have lost the weight having been on the road. She appears to have either a mole or a photographic blemish on her left cheek. She was 21 when missing, 22 when the Does were found. She has the square chin attributed to the Doe and her lips and eyes seem similar although I'm not technical.

Her nose does seem thicker but we only have two blurred pictures of her and the clearer of the two is taken in a photo booth, from below, in harsh lighting, and of course if she lost 20lbs it might have drained from her face making her seem more dainty.

She has the medical connection (possibly her companion may have been using an ID based on one of the doctors at the hospital and/or have been a patient himself) and is Canadian.

Sylvie seems a long shot to me because the Doe seems like one of the "popular kids" and Sylvie, doesn't really. But I guess we don't know why she was hospitalized and if there is a back story of abuse, etc., it may be that she was temporarily and superficially better of out of that environment.

----

Ouimet's missing poster is here:
http://www.missingchildren.ca/Files/SylvieOuimet.pdf
Doe Network page:
http://doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

Marie
09-11-2007, 06:05 PM
Here's an idea:

If you folks would like to post questions, I will make a list and contact Verna again and ask her the questions. How does that sound?

Two questions I can think of now, both about JD's teeth.

Did he still have missing teeth? and How long before death is the partial dental work thought to have been done?

I'm unclear from the description whether it means JD had fillings or gaps noticeable. "Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left."

Also, if she is interested, could you please fax her the info I found about the watch and/or ring? I don't have a fax or easy access.



I've contacted someone knowledgeable about Bulova watches, but haven't heard back yet.

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 06:38 PM
Thanks so much phenolred! A .357 could still be police or a local thug into drugs.

It's interesting, too, that it was near a county line. That can often (purposely) confuse the investigation since cooperation may not the very best between competing powers-that-be. :)

Also, since the .357 was found "locally" a while after the killings, that also suggests "local" involvement, in my opinion (not necessarily cops, but local nonetheless). It's interesting the fellow who had the .357 was from North Carolina.

It might be interesting to see if any missing persons reports for the counties between Latta and Raleigh or available for that era or see if there are any cold cases in those counties.

I am making notes to send to my son tomorrow via email so he can have the information available on what we need. (Not sure how long it will take because he is so busy with grad school at the moment.)

I also find it interesting the man found with the gun was from NC. Was there a name given on the man found with the gun?

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 06:50 PM
Good to know he had a wad of cash before he supposedly went to Florida. It is somewhat confusing to me that he was offering to sell the ring at that time tho. Why would he offer to sell it if he had money unless the money wasn't his (front money) and they needed extra to make it TO Florida perhaps? If the people on the other end (FL) weren't satisfied...as in he didn't make it with all the money or they thought maybe he was a narc...OH...what about the narc angle? Could he have been working for the "other (ie. DEA)" side and was found out? This could explain being possibly associated with the wrong end of a police weapon.

If he offered to sell it to the KOA guy...maybe he did eventually sell or pawn the watch and ring to someone else along the way. I wonder if LE checked pawn shops up and down that stretch at the time to see if they turned up? Back in the 70s...not sure about the records kept in pawn shops. When did they set up NCIC? Were these items eventually entered into the system? (A good question for VM...to go with the information on the ring and watch.)

Thanks for mapping that out, Phenolred.

Marie
09-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Good to know he had a wad of cash before he supposedly went to Florida. It is somewhat confusing to me that he was offering to sell the ring at that time tho. Why would he offer to sell it if he had money unless the money wasn't his (front money) and they needed extra to make it TO Florida perhaps? If the people on the other end (FL) weren't satisfied...as in he didn't make it with all the money or they thought maybe he was a narc...OH...what about the narc angle? Could he have been working for the "other (ie. DEA)" side and was found out? This could explain being possibly associated with the wrong end of a police weapon.

If he offered to sell it to the KOA guy...maybe he did eventually sell or pawn the watch and ring to someone else along the way. I wonder if LE checked pawn shops up and down that stretch at the time to see if they turned up? Back in the 70s...not sure about the records kept in pawn shops. When did they set up NCIC? Were these items eventually entered into the system? (A good question for VM...to go with the information on the ring and watch.)

I will work on mapping the route out. I am getting better at it, at least.

The wad of cash has me concerned as well. I've been thinking a lot about his willingness to sell his ring...the ring with initials. To me it means the ring was less important to him than the watch, meaning maybe it wasn't his initials.

Marie
09-11-2007, 07:06 PM
Just received this...and I've answered back with a LOT of questions :)

I'm afraid that the serial number contains no useful information. This is thanks to the lack of foresight on the part of Bulova when they trashed virtually everything associated with early Accutron watches.

I do keep very good records and a computer search for H918803 turned up nothing. It's my habit to add a dash and then the date code after the serial number on all of my invoices so I tried H918803-M8 but again, no luck. I would have been pleased to contribute to your search but unfortunately, I have nothing for you.

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 07:16 PM
I found this map Santee to Locklair Road about 53 miles
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=santee+sc&daddr=S+Locklair+Rd,+Scranton,+Florence,+South+Car olina+29591,+United+States&sll=33.87984,-80.892445&sspn=2.07952,3.114624&ie=UTF8&ll=33.822512,-80.241394&spn=1.040478,1.557312&z=9&om=1

Just curious...how did my sn pull up on that map when I clicked on yours? LOL

I noticed the route would continue on to Myrtle Beach, too...or wrap back around to get back on 95. Interesting. (There are tons of KOA campgrounds near there now, but not sure about back in 70s...but I think they were big back then.)

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 07:27 PM
They already determined the records had been trashed from Bulova, but I would be interested in finding out if it ever turned up in a pawn shop myself.

The ring might have not been his...but for some reason I believe it is. He must have seriously been in need of some money. Another thought...maybe he was literally going to "pawn" it to the KOA guy and buy it back on his way back through.

Gina_M
09-11-2007, 07:42 PM
Just curious...how did my sn pull up on that map when I clicked on yours? LOL

Probably you were already signed in to Google, and so Google "remembered" you :)

SeriouslySearching
09-11-2007, 07:43 PM
:doh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: @ ME! Too funny! Maybe I haven't figured out this google map thing out after all. :D

Probably you were already signed in to Google, and so Google "remembered" you :)

Marie
09-11-2007, 07:50 PM
They already determined the records had been trashed from Bulova, but I would be interested in finding out if it ever turned up in a pawn shop myself.

The ring might have not been his...but for some reason I believe it is. He must have seriously been in need of some money. Another thought...maybe he was literally going to "pawn" it to the KOA guy and buy it back on his way back through.

I was hoping for some private records of where the watch was sold... sometimes geeks just know things ;)

He probably blew all his money partying in Florida ... or the drug stuff. About the ring... I was just thinking that if a person has the choice to sell/trade/pawn two items, one with initials and one without... well, I don't really know, I guess it'd be a personal decision. But it does make me nervous that he chose the ring with initials.

rmf
09-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Hi Gang

I am making a list of questions and when I have a few I'll fax them to Verna. I'll let you know when I have a list of them and when I send them to her. She seems to prefer the phone so I promise to take copious notes when she replies. Keep the questions comin' :)

Angie4b1g
09-11-2007, 08:01 PM
Perhaps he took the ring as payment in a drug deal.

rmf
09-11-2007, 08:09 PM
Perhaps he took the ring as payment in a drug deal.

Yup, coulda been the watch AND ring both in a trade for drugs. That was really common back then.

Also the girl's jewelry was common and everywhere then. I remember that summer a store selling turquoise jewelry opened in my hometown in California and those types of rings could be found almost anywhere.

One thing I did ask Verna is that from the case history I read, I believe it stated there were THREE rings found on the girl, but only two have been photographed. I asked Verna where the third ring was and why there was no photo. She told me the jewelry was locked up in an evidence case somewhere with LE so she didn't know. She did say she would have loved to have been able to get DNA off the jewelry.

rmf
09-11-2007, 08:16 PM
She could certainly be a match. When I opened the .pdf file and enlarged the top photo, I could see two round marks to the left of her mouth. The eyelashes certainly look very long as well.

I would think Verna Moore might be interested in this one.

It is certainly worth looking at, can't hurt! (thumbs up!)

I will print out this page and fax it to her... but I'd also like to include some questions for her in my cover page from you folks...

Can y'all post some more questions here tonight and I'll compile them from us as a group.

Gina_M
09-11-2007, 08:39 PM
It is certainly worth looking at, can't hurt! (thumbs up!)

I will print out this page and fax it to her...

Thank you, rmf! :)

SeriouslySearching
09-12-2007, 02:04 AM
I am sorry, but I didn't see enough that matched on that one to send it to VM. I would hate to innundate her with speculation in this case because if we do..she will soon tire of us.

The same with questions...not to offend, but to understand. She is a working ME. She won't try to track down carp. We need to be very specific in what we present to her which means we need to go over things here that we all feel are instrumental in solving this crime and have some evidence to back it up.

Because she has been so forthcoming means we should be very discerning.

rmf
09-12-2007, 03:41 AM
I am sorry, but I didn't see enough that matched on that one to send it to VM. I would hate to innundate her with speculation in this case because if we do..she will soon tire of us. he same with questions...not to offend, but to understand. She is a working ME. She won't try to track down carp.


Obviously we don't want to take up her time with leads that may not be promising so if you come up with something make sure you have lots of back up documentation for her forensics guy to research.




I think we're all very conscious of these concerns, and I trust that the folks here will come up with viable leads for Verna. I mentioned that issue in my initial post about my contact with her, a few pages ago in this thread. :)

phenolred
09-12-2007, 07:25 AM
I really didnt see the resemblence with the Sylivie girl either...

I did find this girl that went missing from indiana in Oct 1974 she was 19 at that time what do you think of her? It doesnt say anything about moles. I thought the nose and lips forehead looked like a match.. Debra Ann Wilhite

http://www.411gina.org/missing/debraannwilhite.jpg (http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502891S)http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-1-Jane-Doe-Police-Sketch-.jpg

phenolred
09-12-2007, 07:34 AM
Perhaps he took the ring as payment in a drug deal.
ANG I just thought of something I remember the work you did with the picture of the Arizona Jane Doe and added the eyes to her pic & hair, I was wondering IF PLEASE you could so something like that with the morgue pics of these to like open their eyes and maybe fix her hair a bit, I think it would defainately help to see their REAL pics with their eyes OPEN...

You did such a good job with the Arizona girl THANKS in advance

http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192618_cold%20case%20female%20victim.gifhttp://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192531_cold%20case%20male%20victim.gif


HEY GUYS I DONT KNOW WHY THESE PICS ARE SHOWING UP AS LINKS INSTEAD OF THE PIC ??????

MaryLiz
09-12-2007, 07:56 AM
I really didnt see the resemblence with the Sylivie girl either...

I did find this girl that went missing from indiana in Oct 1974 she was 19 at that time what do you think of her? It doesnt say anything about moles. I thought the nose and lips forehead looked like a match.. Debra Ann Wilhite


http://www.411gina.org/missing/debraannwilhite.jpg (http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502891S)http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-1-Jane-Doe-Police-Sketch-.jpg


phenolred, that's a good possibility but I've read several news articles about Debra Wilhite and LE pretty much thinks she was murdered in Indiana the night she disappeared and even did a search of a landfill for her if I'm not mistaken. If I can find any of the news articles documenting this I'll post them.

phenolred
09-12-2007, 08:56 AM
Ok I went back and found this I KNEW I had read the suspects name somewhere. Now if we can do some more investigating on him. LONNIE GEORGE HENRY HE WAS FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Sumter County Sheriff I. Byrd Parnell and his deputies arrived minutes later. Crouching over the corpses, they noticed a pair of tire tracks. There was nothing else.
The investigation
After making a plaster cast of the tire tracks and scouring for evidence, Parnell shipped the bodies to the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston for an autopsy, which turned up little more than the obvious.


Sole suspect
About four months after the murders, police in the Darlington County town of Latta arrested Lonnie George Henry for drunk driving. Under the seat of his car they found a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson with the serial number filed off.
Police sent the gun to the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division's forensic lab for tests and later concluded that Henry's revolver had killed the mystery couple. Bullets taken from the bodies matched with the weapon.
When officers asked Henry point blank if he was the killer, his polygraph said he was telling the truth. No, he hadn't pulled the trigger. But several other lie detector tests implied he was lying about something, at least, maybe covering up for somebody. Investigators wondered if someone had stolen his gun and whether a relative or friend of Henry's had killed the couple in Sumter.
But case files say Henry did lie about how he'd obtained the gun, first telling officers that he'd bought it from a truck driver. Days after the purchase, Henry told investigators, he discovered the serial number had been filed off. By then, it was too late to return the item for a refund.
SLED recovered the serial number and investigators tracked the gun from its manufacturer to Henry's brother, who said he gave it to Henry as a Christmas present four or five years earlier.
The gun had been bought, stolen and resold several times before falling into the hands of Henry's brother. But he said the serial number was still there on Christmas Eve.
When confronted with the new information, Henry confessed to filing the serial numbers off himself.
It remains unclear why Henry lied if he was innocent. And it also remains unclear if he really was. Case files say Henry was a recovering alcoholic and had also gotten in trouble with the law for a slew of minor offenses.
At the time, his son had recently drowned in the Pee Dee River. He'd also accidentally killed one of his co-workers, by backing a dump truck over him.
Investigative psychologists even wondered if he'd killed the Sumter couple and simply couldn't remember doing it

phenolred
09-12-2007, 08:59 AM
I have a couple of questions too, We have talked alot about wether the KOA guy noticed an accent. BUT there was one other person that had seem them too. The fruit stand worker, the reports indicate he doesnt remember them being in a car or with other peeople. BUT DID HE notice ACCENT???

Angie4b1g
09-12-2007, 09:05 AM
ANG I just thought of something I remember the work you did with the picture of the Arizona Jane Doe and added the eyes to her pic & hair, I was wondering IF PLEASE you could so something like that with the morgue pics of these to like open their eyes and maybe fix her hair a bit, I think it would defainately help to see their REAL pics with their eyes OPEN...

You did such a good job with the Arizona girl THANKS in advance

http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192618_cold%20case%20female%20victim.gifhttp://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192531_cold%20case%20male%20victim.gif


HEY GUYS I DONT KNOW WHY THESE PICS ARE SHOWING UP AS LINKS INSTEAD OF THE PIC ??????

I have a pretty hectic next few days, but I'll see what I can do.

ETA: I had a pretty good morgue photo of the Maricopa JD, nice and straight on, fairly large, easy to work with. I am by no one's definition a reconstructionist.

phenolred
09-12-2007, 09:13 AM
Thanks Ang....I think it would be awesome if we coud get some open eyes on them....They seem to COME ALIVE....See what you can do I sincerely appreciate anything you can do. I wish we could get more REAL photos of them....Wonder if thats something Verna might know. I dont like composites I want to see the real person, composites just look too cartoonish to me...Thanks ANG

christine2448
09-12-2007, 09:15 AM
I really didnt see the resemblence with the Sylivie girl either...

I did find this girl that went missing from indiana in Oct 1974 she was 19 at that time what do you think of her? It doesnt say anything about moles. I thought the nose and lips forehead looked like a match.. Debra Ann Wilhite


http://www.411gina.org/missing/debraannwilhite.jpg (http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502891S)http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-1-Jane-Doe-Police-Sketch-.jpg


The drawing and the morgue photo look very similar, IMO. But the real photo is throwing me off. Has this been looked into more?

phenolred
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
The drawing and the morgue photo look very similar, IMO. But the real photo is throwing me off. Has this been looked into more?


Im not sure maybe we could ask Verna if she has already been eliminated, since she has stated that the Indiana angle has been looked at, BUT I wonder if maybe they didnt look at her because she went missing in 74 and the Doe died in 76...I found a site where this persons daugher has posted looking for her missing mother, I read elsewhere that a couple of years after mom went missing her dad was killed in a car wreck and one of the other children died soon after of Luekemia, she is the only one left..I hate to bombard Verna with useless questions. Here is a link to the website where the daughter is asking about her mom she might know if her mom had moles on her face. Also this site is a great tool for other people we are looking for.
http://www.77investigators.com/messageboard.html

BOESP
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
I think we're all very conscious of these concerns, and I trust that the folks here will come up with viable leads for Verna. I mentioned that issue in my initial post about my contact with her, a few pages ago in this thread. :)


In seeing the photo of the girl's corpse, I can see now that her nose does not match the nose of Sylvie Ouimet. As to the ddrawing, I don't think it looks like the corpse either. Is the girl's chin pointed or oval?

phenolred
09-12-2007, 09:22 AM
In seeing the photo of the girl's corpse, I can see now that her nose does not match the nose of Sylvie Ouimet. As to the drawing, I don't think it looks like the corpse either.


I agree 100% I dont think Sylvie is a viable lead.

MaryLiz
09-12-2007, 09:28 AM
Here is Debra Wilhite's Doe Network page with other photos of her. I can see a resemblance, but in looking at the other photos I'm not sure the SC Jane Doe is her.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/723dfin.html

MaryLiz
09-12-2007, 09:30 AM
Sorry, I should have added Debra Wilhite's WS thread to the above post too for further reference.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37915&highlight=Debra+Wilhite

phenolred
09-12-2007, 10:54 AM
I am going to work on making them their own myspace profile and add them to school alumni's any ideas for the Grad dates I should put for them?

Marie
09-12-2007, 10:56 AM
More from the gentleman I emailed about the watch:

The Accutron watch was a high tech instrument in its day. It had a connection to the space program and was very popular with young people. It was cool, and relatively expensive starting at $125. Most of the ones that I repair were originally gifts from parents, wives, or friends.

Bulova was a world class manufacturer at the time, with manufacturing facilities in New York and Switzerland. Components were made in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of watches made during the 17 years of production (1960 to 1977) has been variously put at anywhere between 17 and 24 million.

They were marketed everywhere and sold with a sizeable discount to GI's at military PX's all over the world.


Finally, when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement.

Please past that last part on to Verna :)

Marie
09-12-2007, 10:58 AM
I am going to work on making them their own myspace profile and add them to school alumni's any ideas for the Grad dates I should put for them?


Grad date for JD - 1968 or 1969 based on the manufacture date of the watch and his estimated age.

Marie
09-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Bumping this up because I like to refer back to the faces while I'm researching.



http://meyahna.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/janedoe.jpg http://meyahna.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/johndoe.jpg

http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMaleFemale.jpg http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMale.jpg

http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192618_cold%20case%20female%20victim.gif http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192531_cold%20case%20male%20victim.gif

http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/189UFSC1.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/198UMSC4.jpg


I just wanted to put all the pics in one place for reference.

christine2448
09-12-2007, 11:00 AM
More from the gentleman I emailed about the watch:

The Accutron watch was a high tech instrument in its day. It had a connection to the space program and was very popular with young people. It was cool, and relatively expensive starting at $125. Most of the ones that I repair were originally gifts from parents, wives, or friends.

Bulova was a world class manufacturer at the time, with manufacturing facilities in New York and Switzerland. Components were made in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of watches made during the 17 years of production (1960 to 1977) has been variously put at anywhere between 17 and 24 million.

They were marketed everywhere and sold with a sizeable discount to GI's at military PX's all over the world.


Finally, when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement.

Please past that last part on to Verna :)



Awesome info!

MaryLiz
09-12-2007, 11:02 AM
I am going to work on making them their own myspace profile and add them to school alumni's any ideas for the Grad dates I should put for them?

phenolred - I meant to tell you last week when you came up with the myspace idea what an excellent idea it was. Let us know when you have the page done. I don't know about the girl, I was going to suggest that John Doe could have graduated anywhere from 1968 (the date his Bulova watch was made - it could have been a graduation present) to maybe 1970 or 1971?? Thanks again for the offer to do the myspace page.

rmf
09-12-2007, 02:13 PM
I'm compiling all this information.

I think what I'll do is contact Verna and ask her if it would be OK for me to send her a list of possible leads/questions from WS on a bi-weekly basis. That way we'll have time to analyze them and eliminate the ones that are collectively thought to be unrelated to this case, and therefore, we won't waste her time and energy....

I also think it is a really good idea to focus on the Jane Doe too. I think we all have had a tendency to focus on the male and it is possible that the female may be the key to this case. You never know.

phenolred
09-12-2007, 02:25 PM
I'm compiling all this information.

I think what I'll do is contact Verna and ask her if it would be OK for me to send her a list of possible leads/questions from WS on a bi-weekly basis. That way we'll have time to analyze them and eliminate the ones that are collectively thought to be unrelated to this case, and therefore, we won't waste her time and energy....

I also think it is a really good idea to focus on the Jane Doe too. I think we all have had a tendency to focus on the male and it is possible that the female may be the key to this case. You never know.


Yeah sometimes women are more liking to try to find an old friend etc...and with her having those moles on her face helps identify her SOMEBODY has to know her went to school with her, Dated her was her sister cousin SOMETHING.

Marie
09-12-2007, 04:17 PM
I'm compiling all this information.

I also think it is a really good idea to focus on the Jane Doe too. I think we all have had a tendency to focus on the male and it is possible that the female may be the key to this case. You never know.


I do look for her. It's just that there's not much info about her to research and post about.

Angie4b1g
09-12-2007, 04:22 PM
Yeah, there isn't really much to go on with the girl. A couple rings that anyone could own.

SeriouslySearching
09-12-2007, 04:30 PM
Yes, you would think with the moles...she would have already been accounted for. They are very distinctive.

I don't understand why her rings don't bear some mark on them either. Normally, a silversmith or the person making the ring will put a mark somewhere on the jewelry.

And I think that last drawing of the man isn't accurate...I think he was better looking. It makes him look like a goober. (No offense to the artist.)

MagicRose99
09-12-2007, 04:57 PM
Too many pages to read thru... but has anyone else suggested that they may be brother / sister? To me, they look a lot a like... same lips, nose, etc. You may want to search missing siblings...

Teresa Larson
09-12-2007, 11:43 PM
Too many pages to read thru... but has anyone else suggested that they may be brother / sister? To me, they look a lot a like... same lips, nose, etc. You may want to search missing siblings...

Yes them possibly being siblings was mentioned in a previous post. I think they may have been. IMO I don't remember reading if they ever did DNA on the 2 to check this out.

MaryLiz
09-13-2007, 07:37 AM
Yes them possibly being siblings was mentioned in a previous post. I think they may have been. IMO I don't remember reading if they ever did DNA on the 2 to check this out.

LE does still consider the possibility that they may be related. They did an exhumation in June and still don't have DNA results back yet, but hopefully soon. Here is a story along with a video I posted in June about it.

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572

Marie
09-13-2007, 09:19 AM
LE does still consider the possibility that they may be related. They did an exhumation in June and still don't have DNA results back yet, but hopefully soon. Here is a story along with a video I posted in June about it.

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572

I was thinking about this last night. Wouldn't LE have an idea of whether they were siblings or cousins or boyfriend-husband/girlfriend-wife from the witnesses? Did anyone see both of them together and notice how they acted together? Maybe this is something to ask the Coroner.


Two topics have been posted lately on WS about people not being reported missing from the 1970's - or LE losing the files, etc.

phenolred
09-13-2007, 09:53 AM
Yes, you would think with the moles...she would have already been accounted for. They are very distinctive.

I don't understand why her rings don't bear some mark on them either. Normally, a silversmith or the person making the ring will put a mark somewhere on the jewelry.

And I think that last drawing of the man isn't accurate...I think he was better looking. It makes him look like a goober. (No offense to the artist.)


Yeah I know what you mean I also cant stand this composite of Jane Doe, it make her look hard core !!! I dont think it reflects her accuratlety....yuk
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/189UFSC.jpg

phenolred
09-13-2007, 10:07 AM
Two topics have been posted lately on WS about people not being reported missing from the 1970's - or LE losing the files, etc.

Exactly what I was thinking about last night when i read about the John Doe identified yesterday from Kentucky he disappeard right here in Indianapolis in 1978 his body found was found in 1990...doenetwork case 133umky. Identified as Scott Micheal Morris.

I immeadiatley thought of Jock & Jane Doe when I read this article. COULD THIS BE THE SENARIO OF JOCK & JANE, THEIR FAMILYS WONDER WHAT HAPPENED BUT DIDNT REPORT THEM MISSING ????

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20747268

Here is more info
The victim was located January 7, 1990 near Owensboro in rural Daviess County, Kentucky. He was identified in September 2007 as Scott Michael Morris, who was last seen leaving a convenience store in Indianapolis in 1978 when he was 14. Morris' family at the time told police that the boy frequently ran away from home but usually returned. His grandmother reported him missing, but it was not until 1989 that the family filed a formal missing persons report.


What law enforcement didn't realize was there was a family looking just as hard for their loved one some 200 miles away, only he had vanished 12 years before the murder took place.
"When he came here and left out of this door, nobody's seen him since," said James Morris, Scott's younger brother.
Scott Morris was just 14 when he went to a market down the street in Indianapolis where they lived and never came home.
"It was just like he disappeared off the face of the earth," said James Morris.
In late 1989, a friend of the family received a strange phone call from him. "He said he was working for a carnival. He didn't say where. They asked if he was okay. He said he was okay. Real brief, he said, 'I got to go,'" said Morris.
That day, his grandmother went to Indianapolis police and insisted he again be put in the missing person data base, but for some reason it wasn't done until years later.
"We was hoping they had put him in the system, and if they had maybe we would have known this a lot sooner," said Morris.

MagicRose99
09-13-2007, 01:47 PM
LE does still consider the possibility that they may be related. They did an exhumation in June and still don't have DNA results back yet, but hopefully soon. Here is a story along with a video I posted in June about it.

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572

That article is dated 6/12/07. It states:
"Moore says it should take about a month for SLED to process the DNA. From that point, it will be sent out to FBI and Interpol databases. Only time will tell if they’ll get a match."

So... it's been 3 months... and no word on DNA yet?

LisainWV
09-13-2007, 03:23 PM
I have also come to the conclusion that these 2 were never officially listed as missing. Which means, they will eventually be ID'ed by a family member who vaguely remembers so-and-so and wonders whatever happened to them. IF they are ever ID'ed at all.

I can hardly wait to see what the DNA results give us concerning them being siblings, or not.

I really wish someone who knew how to set up a nice website (like the Doenetwork or Charleyproject) would make a site where people looking for people could post. Oh I know these sites already exist, but they are messy and confusing to use and navigate. Some of these listings don't even give enough info to know who they are looking for. Give these people some type of form to use (your name, person you are looking for, where last seen, circumstances, other info they have...).

It would provide a means to look for those people who were never reported missing and maybe the families feel "silly" for thinking of going to LE so many years after the fact.

SeriouslySearching
09-13-2007, 03:39 PM
Excellent ideas, Lisa! I found this form which I think should be standard fare for LE and for the families of missing people to fill out...which should also be available on such a site. It is so complete!

http://howtoinvestigate.com/people_finder/missingform.htm

MaryLiz
09-13-2007, 06:48 PM
I have also come to the conclusion that these 2 were never officially listed as missing. Which means, they will eventually be ID'ed by a family member who vaguely remembers so-and-so and wonders whatever happened to them. IF they are ever ID'ed at all.

I can hardly wait to see what the DNA results give us concerning them being siblings, or not.

I really wish someone who knew how to set up a nice website (like the Doenetwork or Charleyproject) would make a site where people looking for people could post. Oh I know these sites already exist, but they are messy and confusing to use and navigate. Some of these listings don't even give enough info to know who they are looking for. Give these people some type of form to use (your name, person you are looking for, where last seen, circumstances, other info they have...).

It would provide a means to look for those people who were never reported missing and maybe the families feel "silly" for thinking of going to LE so many years after the fact.

Ditto, in the meantime, phenolred on here has said she will do a myspace page for them which I think is a good idea.

I believe like you do and don't think they have been officially listed as missing. I have been searching missing person websites since 2004 looking for these 2. I'm still hoping there is a plea out there somewhere from someone looking for one or both of them.

MaryLiz
09-13-2007, 06:49 PM
That article is dated 6/12/07. It states:
"Moore says it should take about a month for SLED to process the DNA. From that point, it will be sent out to FBI and Interpol databases. Only time will tell if they’ll get a match."

So... it's been 3 months... and no word on DNA yet?

No word yet...rmf on here has personally spoke with Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore and she said there is nothing back yet. I read in another report from last June that said it could take from a month to a year! I hope not.

SeriouslySearching
09-13-2007, 07:14 PM
I think we need to petition our government to give counties money for hiring enough lab workers and for the expansion of labs! It is so ridiculous how far behind they all are and how long these tests take! All of our Law Enforcement agencies depend highly on forensic laboratories now and the demand will only increase. Something needs to happen now to alleviate such backlogs.

LisainWV
09-13-2007, 08:26 PM
I agree that forensics labs need more resources for equipment, people whatever they need to process crime scene evidence and our pet cases of missing people and unid'ed people.

I also would like to see a push for putting a DNA profile on file for each child that is born in the US - of course, we would need to have the resources i mentioned earlier to handle the work load. And, any adults who wanted to volunteer a DNA sample for the files could do so as well. I've thought about this a lot and if I had kids, I think I would have their DNA processed for that possibility that something terrible could happen to them. I would at least know that their bodies were not lying in an unmarked grave somewhere because no one could id them.

SeriouslySearching
09-13-2007, 11:10 PM
They now have a CHIP program which provides LE with not only DNA, but videos, fingerprints, etc.

CHIP Program To Identify Missing Children (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53314&highlight=CHIP+program)

Teresa Larson
09-14-2007, 12:52 AM
I think a MySpace page is a great idea!! Let me know phenolred I'd be happy to set it up

:woohoo:

phenolred
09-14-2007, 07:30 AM
I think a MySpace page is a great idea!! Let me know phenolred I'd be happy to set it up

:woohoo:

It is in the process, Its coming along I have just been kinda busy this week Heck It wouldnt hurt to have more than one either...Just doubles the chance of someone that knows them seeing them....Or maybe we could do One for her and one for him...(for the default pic)

Gina_M
09-14-2007, 08:06 PM
I have also come to the conclusion that these 2 were never officially listed as missing. Which means, they will eventually be ID'ed by a family member who vaguely remembers so-and-so and wonders whatever happened to them. IF they are ever ID'ed at all.

I can hardly wait to see what the DNA results give us concerning them being siblings, or not.

I really wish someone who knew how to set up a nice website (like the Doenetwork or Charleyproject) would make a site where people looking for people could post. Oh I know these sites already exist, but they are messy and confusing to use and navigate. Some of these listings don't even give enough info to know who they are looking for. Give these people some type of form to use (your name, person you are looking for, where last seen, circumstances, other info they have...).

It would provide a means to look for those people who were never reported missing and maybe the families feel "silly" for thinking of going to LE so many years after the fact.

I think that is an awesome idea. I think you're right - there are a lot of cases where either a missing persons report was not filed, or was not followed up on. For older cases, many of them probably never made it to the NCMEC, the NCMA, or the internet, because these things didn't exist yet. I don't think the agencies go back and list the older cases unless the family specifically requests it.

I've been wanting to make up a flyer to encourage families to make sure their missing person is listed somewhere. Especially older cases. Some of these families may not even use the internet, may not even realize everything that is being done now to solve these cases. They may think that since their case is old it is long forgotten.

Gina_M
09-14-2007, 08:11 PM
It is in the process, Its coming along I have just been kinda busy this week Heck It wouldnt hurt to have more than one either...Just doubles the chance of someone that knows them seeing them....Or maybe we could do One for her and one for him...(for the default pic)

That's a great idea...one MySpace page for Jock and one for Jane. (And make sure you're in each other's Top Friends List!) Since they may not necessarily have been a couple that disappeared together, but rather met each other later...each of them should be treated individually. Could be that someone recognizes one of them but not the other.

rmf
09-14-2007, 10:43 PM
The myspace idea is great!!!

I am still compiling questions/information for Verna Moore. Please keep the info coming.

Also, more focus on the Jane Doe is really great. It has been easy to focus on him, but she may actually be the key to this case.

Teresa Larson
09-15-2007, 02:54 AM
I think 2 pages is a great idea!! I would be happy to do them both Please let me know because I don't want to step on anybodies toes here LOL
:woohoo:

rmf
09-15-2007, 03:30 AM
I think 2 pages is a great idea!! I would be happy to do them both Please let me know because I don't want to step on anybodies toes here LOL
:woohoo:

Hey Teresa, unless anyone objects, I say GO FOR IT. Even if there's more than one, it can't hurt, right? ;)

When the myspace pages are up and running, please post links so I can forward them on the Verna Moore.

Teresa Larson
09-15-2007, 03:47 AM
Hey Teresa, unless anyone objects, I say GO FOR IT. Even if there's more than one, it can't hurt, right? ;)

When the myspace pages are up and running, please post links so I can forward them on the Verna Moore.


I agree it can't hurt to have more than one MySpace page. I will get both of them going and let you know when it's done Thanks!! :clap:

MaryLiz
09-15-2007, 06:51 AM
I think 2 pages is a great idea!! I would be happy to do them both Please let me know because I don't want to step on anybodies toes here LOL
:woohoo:


I think it's a great idea too...the more exposure these two get to hopefully find out their identities, the better.

SeriouslySearching
09-15-2007, 02:25 PM
I found some women's jewelry with great similarities and the name of an artist from 30 years ago on ebay. They are definitely Navaho rings.

Maybe he/she would be familiar with the artist or could be the artist who made her rings. It would be worth a shot, if he/she is still alive. Both rings have unusual touches to be made in the 70s, imo.

http://www.timedancesby.com/images/nativeamerican/NA030A_small.jpg (http://www.timedancesby.com/images/nativeamerican/na030.htm)http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-3-Jane-Does-ring.jpg Note the balls of silver mixed with the feather. I realize the feather on the bracelet is more detailed, but it would be easier to create detail on a larger piece. Also, the artist "tucks" in the stones with the feathers. The way the stones are set are the norm in navaho pieces with the zig zag design. I included the three stoned piece because of the ring we haven't been able to see...it contained a red, white, and blue stone configuration.

This info includes the name of the artist:
NAVAJO DESERT BLOOMS ( Native American Indian Navajo Bracelet ): Squash Blossom necklaces are everywhere, but here is a Sterling Silver Squash Blossom cuff bracelet. The central motif is a massive curved leaf with 3 blossoms (coral, turquoise & mother-of-pearl) tucked inside. A beaded edge finishes off the design. The cuff is formed by four silver bands that fan out from each side of the center. Hallmarked "L B" (L. Burnside) "Navajo". This piece has been in my collection for 30 years and will fit a medium or small wrist comfortably. Condition: Excellent. Minimal wear. Size: Center Motif 2 5/8" long, 1 3/4" wide. Inside cuff measurement 5 1/4".

http://www.timedancesby.com/nativeamerican3.htm

If someone has an ebay account perhaps they could contact the seller and determine where they purchased the bracelet since they said it had been in their collection for 30 years.

rmf
09-16-2007, 12:14 AM
Good idea to look at the jewelry!

I was looking thru some missing persons stuff and I really wonder about this girl:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/350dfon.html

http://www.opp.ca/Investigative/MissingPersons/MissingList/index.htm


The dates are way off but look at the photos of the moles on her face in the Ontario Provincial police link. It also says she was blonde but she looks more like light brown to me, but the dates are two years too late. :(

MaryLiz
09-16-2007, 12:56 PM
Good idea to look at the jewelry!

I was looking thru some missing persons stuff and I really wonder about this girl:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/350dfon.html

http://www.opp.ca/Investigative/MissingPersons/MissingList/index.htm


The dates are way off but look at the photos of the moles on her face in the Ontario Provincial police link. It also says she was blonde but she looks more like light brown to me, but the dates are two years too late. :(

This girl does look like the SC Jane Doe...too bad about the dates, there really is a resemblance!

SeriouslySearching
09-16-2007, 04:23 PM
Good idea to look at the jewelry!

I was looking thru some missing persons stuff and I really wonder about this girl:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/350dfon.html

http://www.opp.ca/Investigative/MissingPersons/MissingList/index.htm


The dates are way off but look at the photos of the moles on her face in the Ontario Provincial police link. It also says she was blonde but she looks more like light brown to me, but the dates are two years too late. :(

WOW! This one does look like her and the places they went sure fit! Too bad the dates don't gel at all and they stated the man called ten days after they left...so they would be certain of the dates.

She fits the description of another cold case victim here tho.
Unidentified Female, 1988, PA. Skeletal Remains, 6 mths Pregnant (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51057)

phenolred
09-17-2007, 08:06 AM
Ok I have the myspace up and running I am not completely finished yet, I still have a few things to add, But, you can still go ahead and check it out...and add me as a friend Thanks

I dont have a problem of anyone else making one, as I see it the more their pics and story are out vthere the more likely they are to be identified...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=244522663

alos, the myspace url = myspace.com/jockandjanedoe (http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe)

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2007, 10:24 AM
That is great, Phenol! Looks very good and should draw some attention hopefully!

phenolred
09-17-2007, 10:47 AM
That is great, Phenol! Looks very good and should draw some attention hopefully!

Thank you I will be tweaking it a little bti and adding a little bit of info, but for the most part I am done...I looked up top 40 hit songs from the summer of 76 and Afternoon Delight was on there LOL so I added that as their song...

For those of you that don't like to go back pages here are the links to Jock & Jane Does myspace page powered by Phenolred
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...id=244 522663 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=244522663)

also, the myspace url = myspace.com/jockandjanedoe (http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe)

christine2448
09-17-2007, 11:18 AM
Thank you I will be tweaking it a little bti and adding a little bit of info, but for the most part I am done...I looked up top 40 hit songs from the summer of 76 and Afternoon Delight was on there LOL so I added that as their song...

For those of you that don't like to go back pages here are the links to Jock & Jane Does myspace page powered by Phenolred
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...id=244 522663 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=244522663)

also, the myspace url = myspace.com/jockandjanedoe (http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe)

Can you please connect w/my page? www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me (http://www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me)

TIA!

MySpace is an amazing tool for our missing and uid!

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2007, 11:26 AM
I looked up top 40 hit songs from the summer of 76 and Afternoon Delight was on there LOL so I added that as their song...

That will be kinda creepy if they turn out to be brother and sister. You might want to rethink that song. :eek: LOL

Just a hint: Make sure you check spelling and punctuation. It always reads better and people will take the site more seriously.

christine2448
09-17-2007, 11:34 AM
That will be kinda creepy if they turn out to be brother and sister. You might want to rethink that song. :eek: LOL

:hand: :hand: :hand: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :eek: :eek: :eek:

MaryLiz
09-17-2007, 11:34 AM
Thank you I will be tweaking it a little bti and adding a little bit of info, but for the most part I am done...I looked up top 40 hit songs from the summer of 76 and Afternoon Delight was on there LOL so I added that as their song...

For those of you that don't like to go back pages here are the links to Jock & Jane Does myspace page powered by Phenolred
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...id=244 522663 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=244522663)

also, the myspace url = myspace.com/jockandjanedoe (http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe)

It looks very nice, phenolred. I have a myspace account but no page. I only set it up so I could look at Rosco's photos from the Terry and Darleen Anderson case. If I set up a page, I will add Jacques/Jock and Jane Doe's page to mine. Myspace really does draw lots of attention by millions of people so I hope and pray someone recognizes them. Thanks again for doing it.

phenolred
09-17-2007, 11:58 AM
Just a hint: Make sure you check spelling and punctuation. It always reads better and people will take the site more seriously.

Yes I know about the spelling etc. I am still in the process of reviewing it etc. I was just so excited to have it mostly up and running that I wanted to share it with you guys. I guess you could say I'm still in the rough draft stage, I still have some notes of things I want to fix and add etc. ...

For some reason in my gut I dont think they are brother and sister, but we will hopefully find out soon...But, yes I would need to change that song quick...

SeriouslySearching
09-17-2007, 12:05 PM
For some reason in my gut I dont think they are brother and sister, but we will hopefully find out soon...But, yes I would need to change that song quick...

Actually, I would go ahead and change it only because you want people to try to remember them. It might interfere with their memory if they are to assume they were lovers when they may have known them as brother and sister instead. They might pass something off which could be important and that would be a shame.

I didn't mean to be critical. I think it sounds and looks great! Great job, Phenol!

MaryLiz
09-17-2007, 12:23 PM
Wow..I just looked at the top 100 songs from the summer of 1976 and there sure isn't much to choose from. Dream Weaver by Gary Wright was a good song but I don't know if that would fit. Definitely slim pickins.

phenolred
09-17-2007, 12:51 PM
Wow..I just looked at the top 100 songs from the summer of 1976 and there sure isn't much to choose from. Dream Weaver by Gary Wright was a good song but I don't know if that would fit. Definitely slim pickins.
Yeah I know what you mean I kinda like this Dream Weaver though... I'm going to use it.

Here are the lyrics

Dream Weaver
Gary Wright


I've just closed my eyes again
Climbed aboard the dream weaver train
Driver take away my worries of today
And leave tomorrow behind
(chorus
Ooh dream weaver
I believe you can get me through the night
Ooh dream weaver
I believe we can reach the morning light
Fly me high through the starry skies
Maybe to an astral plane
Cross the highways of fantasy
Help me to forget today's pain
(chorus again
Though the dawn may be coming soon
There still may be some time
Fly me away to the bright side of the moon
And meet me on the other side

MaryLiz
09-17-2007, 01:08 PM
Personally, I have always loved the song. I used to listen to it all the time back then because I bought the album. I wasn't sure it would fit but the more I think about it, I think it is a good song to use. Very good melody. Thanks!

It's a better choice than (Shake, Shake, Shake) Shake Your Booty by KC and the Sunshine Band!

rmf
09-17-2007, 03:47 PM
Love the "Dream Weaver" idea... the other music that totally comes to mind for me from that time period is anything off "Frampton comes alive", "Fly like an eagle" by Steve Miller, "Hotel California" (Eagles), "Night Moves" by Bob Segar AND OF COURSE "Don't fear the reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult. Eerie. I am a music geek so I could go on and on. :blushing:

The other song from that era that I remember is "Dust in the wind" by Kansas, but that came out in --I think-- 1977.

MaryLiz
09-17-2007, 04:02 PM
Love the "Dream Weaver" idea... the other music that totally comes to mind for me from that time period is anything off "Frampton comes alive", "Fly like an eagle" by Steve Miller, "Hotel California" (Eagles), "Night Moves" by Bob Segar AND OF COURSE "Don't fear the reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult. Eerie. I am a music geek so I could go on and on. :blushing:

The other song from that era that I remember is "Dust in the wind" by Kansas, but that came out in --I think-- 1977.


I was going to suggest Don't Fear the Reaper...I love that song! Frampton and the Eagles were in the back of my mind too. Unfortunately, there were so many disco songs on the list so like I said, there wasn't a lot to pick from that year. Anyway, phenolred did a great job on the myspage page!

Teresa Larson
09-17-2007, 09:57 PM
I have also started a page I am doing them seperately so they each have their own page. I am still working on it and will also be doing another one for the female that was with him.

http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976

MaryLiz
09-17-2007, 10:05 PM
I have also started a page I am doing them seperately so they each have their own page. I am still working on it and will also be doing another one for the female that was with him.


http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976


Very nice, Teresa. There can't be too many myspace pages IMO to put out there for these two. The more exposure, the better. Thank you for doing it.

phenolred
09-18-2007, 07:32 AM
Very nice, Teresa. There can't be too many myspace pages IMO to put out there for these two. The more exposure, the better. Thank you for doing it.
I agree ..... it Just doubles their chance of being recognized....

Marie
09-18-2007, 05:00 PM
Great work on the MySpace pages! :clap: Some day, hopefully soon, we will find the names of these two young people. Unidentified victims are the closest to my heart... it angers and hurts me that they are victimized twice, once by being murdered, and again by having their identity taken away as if they had never existed.

rmf
09-18-2007, 09:37 PM
Hi Everyone,

Below are the collective questions/info I just faxed over to Verna Moore tonight. I'll let you know when I hear back from her.



Is it possible to get a digital photograph of the Accutron watch movement and case that the John Doe was wearing? The reason this request has been made is because apparently when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement. If this is possible, you can email me the photos and I can post them to our group for further investigation.
There have been a lot of questions about the possible sighting of the couple at the fruit stand. I was wondering if you could give us more detail about what was seen, if anything, by the fruit stand workers?
Can you give us an idea about how RECENT the restorations on the John Doe’s teeth were made prior to his death? Also, can you tell us specifically which teeth were missing? Also, any updates on the DNA results?
About the John Doe’s ring/watch: it is noted in the case history that the John Doe may have tried to sell the ring to the KOA campground worker. Were pawnshops checked locally to see if he’d pawned the ring and watch in the area previously and then came back to claim them?
I am also sending you two leads on missing people. One is a girl from Quebec named Sylvie Ouimet and the other is a young man named James Berkeley Norris who went missing in South Florida who looks similar to your John Doe (except that he has facial hair). I am not sure if these are matches but it can’t hurt to look at them. I am faxing you their printed Doe Network pages, you can also visit the links below in order to get a better look at the photos:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/886dmfl.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

Several forum members are working on setting up MySpace pages on your John/Jane Doe. They are works in progress but are up and running. MySpace has a huge worldwide membership so we are hoping this will help get your case more notoriety. Here are the links to the MySpace pages:
http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976

http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe

christine2448
09-18-2007, 10:19 PM
Fantastic, rmf!

MaryLiz
09-18-2007, 10:41 PM
You did a really good job, rmf...I can't wait for the answers from Ms. Moore!

:clap::clap: :clap:

Teresa Larson
09-19-2007, 01:51 AM
These are the links to the MySpace pages ( I will be adding some things) I also set up 2 yahoo ID's with profiles and pictures I will also be doing a 360 page for each of them.

http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownwoman1976


http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976


http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownwoman1976

http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976 (http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976)

rmf
09-19-2007, 02:50 AM
Great Teresa, sorry I missed all the links the first time around. I will update Verna on all the links when I (hopefully) talk to her.

GREAT WORK!! :)

These are the links to the MySpace pages ( I will be adding some things) I also set up 2 yahoo ID's with profiles and pictures I will also be doing a 360 page for each of them.

http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownwoman1976


http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976


http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownwoman1976

http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976 (http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976)

phenolred
09-19-2007, 07:27 AM
Great Job RMF, I can't wait to hear back from Verna!!!

phenolred
09-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Great work on the MySpace pages! :clap: Some day, hopefully soon, we will find the names of these two young people. Unidentified victims are the closest to my heart... it angers and hurts me that they are victimized twice, once by being murdered, and again by having their identity taken away as if they had never existed.

Thank you I have been updating daily, I love this message I hope you don't mind if I quote some of it on the myspace page....

rmf
09-20-2007, 04:55 PM
This is so great. Keep up the good work, everyone.

I told Verna to reply to my message when she had time, so it may not be until next week. She's busy and I told her I knew that. I promise to keep you all posted on any responses.

phenolred
09-20-2007, 05:16 PM
This is so great. Keep up the good work, everyone.

I told Verna to reply to my message when she had time, so it may not be until next week. She's busy and I told her I knew that. I promise to keep you all posted on any responses.


Hey there...I was thinking of something for the next time we ask Verna questions.....to get the newspaper article quites I will have to go back thru the old posts....But I remember reading that one of the only things they found at the scene were some tire tracks and that they are able to determine cars based on tire tracks...I wonder after 31 years if they could jusr release that information because it could help determine who these two were it could have been their car !!!!! I can understand during the early days of the investigation them not wanting to comprimse their case of catching the killer but I think that ship has sailed....we need to give these two their identites back and telling us that info might help!~!!!

Marie
09-21-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Marie
Great work on the MySpace pages! :clap: Some day, hopefully soon, we will find the names of these two young people. Unidentified victims are the closest to my heart... it angers and hurts me that they are victimized twice, once by being murdered, and again by having their identity taken away as if they had never existed.


Thank you I have been updating daily, I love this message I hope you don't mind if I quote some of it on the myspace page....

Please do use it... I think many people don't understand how awful it is to have your name taken away.

Arthur Kurzweil, a renowned Jewish genealogist, once wrote: "During the Holocaust, they took the names away of the people, individuals each with their own soul, and they put numbers on their arms. The job of a Jewish Genealogist is to replace those numbers and give them back their names."

phenolred
09-21-2007, 02:45 PM
I am bumping the links to the myspace pages

http://www.myspace.com/jockandjanedoe

http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976

SeriouslySearching
09-23-2007, 11:31 PM
Anything new on this thread?

Teresa Larson
09-24-2007, 04:01 AM
These are the pages I made for them. Post them where ever and when ever you can Thanks! Teresa



http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownwoman1976


http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976


http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownwoman1976

http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976 (http://profiles.yahoo.com/helpidunknownman1976)

rmf
09-24-2007, 11:22 PM
Verna called me today in response to our questions. Here they are below:
Is it possible to get a digital photograph of the Accutron watch movement and case that the John Doe was wearing? The reason this request has been made is because apparently when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement. If this is possible, you can email me the photos and I can post them to our group for further investigation.Verna responded that the watch was actually sent in to Bulova Accutron right after the John Doe was found. The Bulova company took the watch apart and examined it and could not find any markings on the case or works. They did say it was circa 1968-69ish but by the time the watch was being researched all the records from Bulova in that era had been destroyed.
There have been a lot of questions about the possible sighting of the couple at the fruit stand. I was wondering if you could give us more detail about what was seen, if anything, by the fruit stand workers?Verna is actually in the process of researching the account of the fruit stand sighting in more detail. The owners of the fruit stand are now deceased, however Verna believes it is possible their relatives still live in the house on the property that is adjacent to where the fruit stand was, so she is going to try to visit there and see if the relatives have any recollection about being told anything on this.
Can you give us an idea about how RECENT the restorations on the John Doe’s teeth were made prior to his death? Also, can you tell us specifically which teeth were missing? Verna reports that a lot of the information about this case have been lost/mislaid- including some of the TEETH belonging to the John Doe. They were given to a forensic dentist to study- he died and his wife inadvertantly threw away the dental samples! Verna says she is unable to tell us how old the work was on the teeth.

About the John Doe’s ring/watch: it is noted in the case history that the John Doe may have tried to sell the ring to the KOA campground worker. Were pawnshops checked locally to see if he’d pawned the ring and watch in the area previously and then came back to claim them?

This was checked at the time with negative results.
I am also sending you two leads on missing people. One is a girl from Quebec named Sylvie Ouimet and the other is a young man named James Berkeley Norris who went missing in South Florida who looks similar to your John Doe (except that he has facial hair). I am not sure if these are matches but it can’t hurt to look at them. I am faxing you their printed Doe Network pages, you can also visit the links below in order to get a better look at the photos:http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/886dmfl.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

Both the above missing people have been ruled out by Verna's forensics guy. James Norris had a distinctive scar on his upper lip which the Sumter County John Doe did not, and Sylvie Ouimet did not have any moles/beauty marks on her face.
Several forum members are working on setting up MySpace pages on your John/Jane Doe. They are works in progress but are up and running. MySpace has a huge worldwide membership so we are hoping this will help get your case more notoriety. Here are the links to the MySpace pages:Verna loves it that the myspace pages have been set up and says to tell you all how appreciative she is of your work. She is not very computer savvy so she appreciates being able to relay stuff to us by phone. (We've become friends and she has endeared herself to me in particular since I had a grandmother from the south who was a real pistol and Verna reminds me a lot of her. ;) )


ABOUT THE DNA: Verna is perturbed (to put it mildly) about the DNA. She has called several times on the status and is getting stonewalled. It is possible that it keeps getting put to the back of the pile in favor of higher priority cases that come up. As soon as she gets it back she will let us know.

ABOUT THE KOA Campground worker: She believes his wife is still alive and so she is going to try to talk to her about any recollections she has about the game of pool that was played by the John Doe and the conversation that took place. Verna said she will update me if she has a chance to get more info from this man's widow.

OTHER NEWS: It is possible that Verna may have an interest in this case by a psychic with a television show. I had heard about this person and their show and contacted them, and in turn, they contacted Verna. It is very tentative right now so I've been asked to hold off on the details, but the hope is that this person may at least be able to look at the case and give some impressions, even if the case is not the subject of a future show. I will post updates when I hear more about this from Verna.

MaryLiz
09-25-2007, 07:48 AM
Great work, rmf! Thanks for submitting the questions to Verna.

phenolred
09-25-2007, 11:59 AM
wow thanks alot, Im so glad Verna is such a great person, she hasnt given uo in 31 years so we won't either....

SeriouslySearching
09-26-2007, 04:16 AM
Wow! Great, RMF! Verne sounds like a nice person and she obviously does care very much about this case. Excellent!

Bobby88
09-26-2007, 10:45 PM
Since there was so much talk about the girl's ring, does anyone happen to know what gemstone John Doe's linde star ring is?

Teresa Larson
09-26-2007, 11:33 PM
Since there was so much talk about the girl's ring, does anyone happen to know what gemstone John Doe's linde star ring is?

Linde Star is the gem stone. Sapphire is the birthstone for September The blue variety is by far the most popular, however sapphire comes in almost every shade of the rainbow.
Linde star sapphires are man made sapphires of exceptional colors & quality. Production of these gemstones was halted in the mid 1980's due to the high cost. Star Sapphires are not all that expensive to buy.

SeriouslySearching
09-27-2007, 04:37 AM
My cousin was given a Linde Star ring upon his request when he graduated or maybe it was the Xmas before graduation. The date on his ring would be about 1968-69. (I will check with him to be certain.) I just remember it probably because he loved it so much. If it was a September stone...I know he wasn't born in that month...but he still asked for it!

Marie
09-27-2007, 06:08 AM
Yeah, it's not a birth stone ring, I looked in to that when I did the research. The appeal of the ring is the 'linde star' design within the stone, not the sapphire gem itself.

I was really hoping the color of his linde star sapphire would point to a birth month, but that was a dead end.

Teresa Larson
09-28-2007, 03:09 AM
Yeah, it's not a birth stone ring, I looked in to that when I did the research. The appeal of the ring is the 'linde star' design within the stone, not the sapphire gem itself.

I was really hoping the color of his linde star sapphire would point to a birth month, but that was a dead end.

You are correct the Linde Star Sapphire is not a birthstone ring however a sapphire is a birthstone for September. I also have a beautiful sapphire ring with diamonds just because I think the stone is very pretty ;)

rpipergirl
10-01-2007, 09:11 PM
A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.
Could this be a school ring? Also if the middle letter was larger than the others then it is his last name. Just food for thought.

Teresa Larson
10-01-2007, 09:30 PM
A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.
Could this be a school ring? Also if the middle letter was larger than the others then it is his last name. Just food for thought.

It's possible.... however usually the high school and or the year are engraved on the sides of it. I had a ring almost identical to this back then but mine was a blue sapphire.

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 06:42 AM
ok i do not live in america or canada.So could someone please help me with this.Where is mendocino county,california in relation to where this couple was found.much appreciated!

tinytown
10-02-2007, 07:12 PM
Mendocino County, California, on the west coast of the US, is 3,000 miles away from South Carolina, on the east coast of the US.

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 10:12 PM
there is two unsolved missing person's cases on the doe net work (page 7).where a 13 and 14 year old boy and girl,found dead on the side of a main road in 1979 believed to have died in 78.Police thought they were related too but after dna tests were done,they were found not to be related.Very similar cases and it is probable to travel 3,000 miles in 2years.Anyone else find it creepy!

Teresa Larson
10-02-2007, 11:45 PM
there is two unsolved missing person's cases on the doe net work (page 7).where a 13 and 14 year old boy and girl,found dead on the side of a main road in 1979 believed to have died in 78.Police thought they were related too but after dna tests were done,they were found not to be related.Very similar cases and it is probable to travel 3,000 miles in 2years.Anyone else find it creepy!

People are found dead on the side of the road all of the time I highly doubt the cases are related in any way. :)

cold case lady
10-02-2007, 11:54 PM
no.not the cases related.the 2 unidentified( male and female) victims!

Angie4b1g
10-04-2007, 08:02 PM
Someone asked about the middle initial being bigger and the ME or detective (forget which) confirmed that all 3 initials were the same size.

rmf
10-11-2007, 11:14 PM
Hi Everyone:

I received a call from Verna and I wanted to share the information we discussed.

Are you all sitting down?

Apparently the DNA samples that were taken in June were set aside in the state crime lab and FORGOTTEN ABOUT for four months!

Of course Verna was fit to be tied and raised hades about this... so now the samples are in the hands of the DNA techs in Texas.

I don't want to slam LE but it's no wonder this case has been unsolved for over 30 years!?!

About the psychic with the TV show: she has been in contact with Verna and unfortunately cannot help her because she must have one of the objects found on the victims to hold; either clothing or the jewelry. Because LE regards this as an open case, the objects cannot be sent to this person, which is a real bummer.

Verna will let me know what happens with the DNA but in the mean time she says to tell you all not to forget about her or this couple and to keep the leads coming!

Teresa Larson
10-11-2007, 11:43 PM
Hi Everyone:

I received a call from Verna and I wanted to share the information we discussed.

Are you all sitting down?

Apparently the DNA samples that were taken in June were set aside in the state crime lab and FORGOTTEN ABOUT for four months!

Of course Verna was fit to be tied and raised hades about this... so now the samples are in the hands of the DNA techs in Texas.

I don't want to slam LE but it's no wonder this case has been unsolved for over 30 years!?!

About the psychic with the TV show: she has been in contact with Verna and unfortunately cannot help her because she must have one of the objects found on the victims to hold; either clothing or the jewelry. Because LE regards this as an open case, the objects cannot be sent to this person, which is a real bummer.

Verna will let me know what happens with the DNA but in the mean time she says to tell you all not to forget about her or this couple and to keep the leads coming!

This doesn't surprise me at all Things like that happen every day. Hopefully we will finally know soon about the DNA. I know everybody has their opinion about psychics but I personally do not have much faith in them. Thanks for the news rmf :clap: :clap:

rmf
10-12-2007, 12:53 AM
This doesn't surprise me at all Things like that happen every day. Hopefully we will finally know soon about the DNA. I know everybody has their opinion about psychics but I personally do not have much faith in them. Thanks for the news rmf :clap: :clap:

I hear ya Teresa on the psychic thing. I think that Verna is disappointed because getting on this show would mean national exposure for this case, which she would really like right now.

MaryLiz
10-12-2007, 07:50 AM
It doesn't surprise me either that the DNA was ignored for 4 months. I'm glad Verna raised cain with them. It's one thing if DNA from a cold case is placed on the back burner for a bit in order to deal with more recent cases where results are needed quickly, but it's another thing entirely when it's just tossed aside and forgotten like it doesn't even matter. Good for her!

phenolred
10-12-2007, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the update!!!

assaf1981
07-09-2008, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE=Richard;1732776]I have not done a lot of detailed study of this particular case. I find it a strange and disturbing one, and wish I knew more about it. What is NOT stated is what raises questions in my mind.
What kind of pistol was used? How did police know that it was stolen? How did their suspect get off so easily? Were they killed where found, or killed elsewhere and transported to the site?

They were killed where they were found.