PDA

View Full Version : Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #2



Pages : [1] 2

Richard
10-04-2004, 01:03 AM
The following ran in The Item newspaper on August 12, 2001.

The Mystery: No I.D., No Leads, No Justice
By Sharyn Lucas-Parker, Senior Staff Writer, The Item

In August of 1976, a woman and a man were found slain beside a dirt road in Sumter County. The deaths are unsolved and they still are unidentified. But they are not forgotten

The two people buried in Bethel United Methodist Church cemetery whose bronze plaques read ''Male Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976," and ''Female Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976,'' never attended a service at the Oswego church or paid tithes there. But for the past 24 years, the members of the church have made sure their resting places remain free of weeds and overgrown grass and that fresh bouquets of flowers mark their graves.

There has been no one else to do it.

''If it were some of our children, we would hope someone would do the same thing for us,'' said the Rev. Michael Henderson, who has been the pastor for six years. ''It's part of that 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'"

Somewhere, perhaps thousands of miles away, or maybe just a state or even only a county over, local authorities believe there are heart-sick relatives who might suspect, but don't know for certain, their loved ones are dead.

Twenty-eight years after the young woman and man were found dead on a dark, secluded Sumter County dirt road between Interstate 95 and S.C. 341, their identities as well as that of their killer or killers remain a mystery.

That thought haunts Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore and drives her to continue trying to find the answers she needs to solve this puzzle that dates back to Aug. 9, 1976.

"I have not given up on this case,'' said Moore, who was deputy coroner back then. ''The reason I am haunted is, I cannot understand how two young people disappeared from somewhere and that their parents would not be looking for them. This does not make sense to me. Somebody somewhere is missing a son or a daughter.''

The case also bothers Sumter County Sheriff Tommy Mims, who was an investigator with the sheriff's office at the time.

''This is one of several cases over the years that we would certainly love to bring to a close so we can identify the perpetrators and bring them to justice on this,'' Mims said.

The story begins around 6:20 a.m. on August 9, when a trucker driving along what was commonly known as Locklair Road, a frontage road just off the interstate, stopped to rest.

Instead, he found a disturbing scene: Two people lying by the road.

Links: http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/

Richard
10-04-2004, 01:08 AM
Links:

http://doenetwork.us/cases/198umsc.html

http://doenetwork.us/cases/189ufsc.html

Unidentified Caucasian Male
Located on August 9, 1976 in Sumter, South Carolina.
An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat.
The couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 22 years old but possibly older.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'1/4"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown eyes; brown hair. Two 2-inch scars on his right shoulder area. 4" appendectomy scar. Tall and athletic looking. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones.
Dentals: Available. Extensive dental work. Very elaborate dental work with crowns and bridges. Crown on left front tooth, acrylic or porcelain. Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left. He is missing his wisdom teeth on the bottom in the back.
Clothing: He was wearing a pair of faded Levi blue jeans, a red t-shirt with Coors America's light beer on the front and Camel Challenger G-T Sebring 75 across the back. It most likely came from the 1975 Coor's sponsored Sebring Races in Florida. Inside his pants pocket were a box of Grants Truck Stop Matches. They had likely come from a truckstop in the Midwest.
Jewelry: He wore a Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 on his left hand. Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed. A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.

Case History
In 1976 this male and his companion were found dead on a secluded Sumter County, South Carolina dirt road between Interstate 95 and SC 341. They were located by a trucker driving along what was commonly known as Locklair Road, a frontage road just off the interstate.
Their identities as well as that of their killer still remains a mystery. Neither had any identification.
They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country.
Investigators wondered if they had been hitchhiking cross country, or if they had been victims of a carjacking.
They were a clean-cut-looking pair. Authorities speculated they might even be brother and sister.

No drugs or alcohol were found on their bodies. They were not smokers. And neither had on underwear.
Investigators had checked out every lead, including trying to identify them through their finger prints and using the serial number on the man's watch in hopes of trying to track down the jewelry store where he might have bought the piece of jewelry. Officials with Interpol as well as U.S. Customs investigators and immigration authorities also had been alerted. Contact were made with agencies in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, and in the Mediterranean.
A forensic dentist in Spartanburg charted the young man’s mouth and the American Dental Association published his findings, hoping a dentist somewhere would recognize the work. The dead man had undergone extensive dental work, including fillings, root canals and crowns. No dentist ever came forward.

The autopsy revealed the pair had eaten fruit or ice cream with fruit not long before they died so investigators were certain the two must have bought the food from a local eatery or store. Someone remembered seeing a couple matching the dead couple's descriptions at a fruit stand that was located off the Florence Highway, but the person couldn't say whether the man and woman were with someone else or if they were riding in a car.

Months after the homicide, an employee of KOA campgrounds near Santee, S.C., called authorities, believing he had earlier made friends with the dead man, who went by the name “Jock,” according to documents in the case file.
Jock, or more likely, Jacques, stayed a few days at the campgrounds with his young female companion, then left for Florida. He and his girlfriend stopped at the campgrounds again on their way back.
The two men became friends. While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine. He was taking a vacation of sorts, traveling the country aimlessly.
Before leaving, he tried to pawn an expensive ring to the employee, who later told authorities that the ring had looked a lot like the one found on the mystery man.
Inside his pocket was a book of Grants Truck Stop matches, which could only be found in Idaho, New Mexico and Nebraska. Authorities think Jacques passed through these places on his travels.

-----------------------------
Unidentified Caucasian Female
Located on August 9, 1976 in Sumter, South Carolina.
An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat.
The couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 20 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'5"; 100 - 105 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Medium-length, brown hair; blue/green or blue-gray eyes. She had two small hair moles on her left cheek and another on the right side of her face. Mole behind right leg (calf). Pierced ears, no surgical scars. She was attractive and had very long eyelashes. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones. The girl had unshaven legs.
Dentals: Available. No elaborate dental work. Missing upper and lower wisdom teeth on right. Has upper and lower wisdom teeth on left. Has fillings in all back teeth. If she were to smile, her teeth in the front would give an even appearance.
Clothing: She was wearing cut-off blue jeans, a pink halter top that tied in the front and an unbleached muslin blouse. She was also wearing a pair of Stride Rite, wedge heeled sandals with lavender, pink and purple straps.
Jewelry: Three Silver rings that resembled American Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. One piece was a faceted band with red, white and blue stones. Another ring had a oblong black stone. The third was a large, intricate feather scroll band with a jade insert into the curves of the scroll.

Case History
In 1976 this female and her companion were found dead on a secluded Sumter County, South Carolina dirt road, Locklair Road, between Interstate 95 and SC 341.
Their identities as well as that of their killer still remains a mystery.
Neither had any identification.
They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country.
Investigators wondered if they had been hitchhiking cross country, or if they had been victims of a carjacking.
They were a clean-cut-looking pair. Authorities speculated they might even be brother and sister.
No drugs or alcohol were found on their bodies. And neither had on underwear.
Investigators had checked out every lead, including trying to identify them through their finger prints and using the serial number on the man's watch in hopes of trying to track down the jewelry store where he might have bought the piece of jewelry. Dental records were published in national dental journals. Officials with Interpol as well as U.S. Customs investigators and immigration authorities also had been alerted.
The autopsy revealed the pair had eaten fruit or ice cream with fruit not long before they died so investigators were certain the two must have bought the food from a local eatery or store. Someone remembered seeing a couple matching the dead couple's descriptions at a fruit stand that was located off the Florence Highway, but the person couldn't say whether the man and woman were with someone else or if they were riding in a car.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Sumter County Sheriff's Office
803-436-2790
or
Sumter County Coroner
Verna Moore
803-436-2111

deputylinda
10-04-2004, 01:10 AM
fascinating and sorrowful case Richard...i know you have investigated it, do you have any ideas or "gut" feelings about this case? glad to see you on the board by the way!...oh, were these kids European do you think?

jat
10-04-2004, 01:36 AM
The two really do look like brother and sister. They also do appear to be European or possibly South American which would explain the unshaven legs also. The article doesn't say, but I wonder how much investigating they have done in cases from other countries? Does anyone know? If the bodies were exhumed they could test their DNA to see if they are brother and sister, but I guess they probably wouldn't do that since it probably wouldn't get them any further. This case is very disturbing. It seems like they dropped the guy with the possible murder weapon a little quickly. Heck, someone could have had his car that night or borrowed his gun, or anything.

Dark Knight
10-04-2004, 04:20 AM
My theory: The truck driver did it. We've discovered on another cold case thread that the truckers have a very violent and criminal underculture. And he JUST HAPPENED to park in a secluded area right where the bodies were? We have a lot of trucks in my area, they almost never park anywhere but alongside major highways in well-lit areas. Or parking lots. It's a common sight. Oh yeah, let's not forget we have strong evidence of the male victim having been at a truck stop, too. Truck driver picked them up at a truck stop, killed them at some point, drove them for a day or so to the secluded area (The MO of the current truck driver/serial killer, BTW,) dumped the bodies, and called the police to pretend he just found them in hopes of throwing them off. No indication of them investigating the trucker in the articles. Call it a gut feeling, but I think that could be your guy.

Richard
10-04-2004, 10:43 PM
I have not done a lot of detailed study of this particular case. I find it a strange and disturbing one, and wish I knew more about it. What is NOT stated is what raises questions in my mind.
What kind of pistol was used? How did police know that it was stolen? How did their suspect get off so easily? Were they killed where found, or killed elsewhere and transported to the site?
Each victim was shot in the identical manner, almost like some sort of ritual or signature. But there is no mention as to whether this matched with any other murders.
I don't think that these two were hitch hikers. My feeling is that they had been traveling by car, perhaps picked up a hitch hiker and were shot by him for their car, camping gear, and money.
If they had been traveling by foot, where were their back packs? Their clothing would have been worn where the straps would have rubbed, and their shoes would have been considerably worn as well. The girl's shoes just do not fit the picture of a cross country hiker. If simple robery of hitch hikers had been the motive, why did the killer leave all their jewlry?
Had they been traveling by car, the shoes might have shown wear consistant with operation of the gas pedal. Also, what fibers were found on their clothing? Anything consistant with car upolstery or carpeting?
I would like to know what other possessions were found on these two young people. All that is mentioned is a book of matches. Any loose change? Receipts? Combs? Keys? Pens? Pocketknife? You know all the stuff that guys carry in their pockets. Why would the killer take any or all of that and leave the gold ring and watch?
It is odd that they have nice jewlry, yet no underwear. And that no one seems to be looking for them.
There must be some evidence beyond skin color and body hair to lead some experts to speculate that they might be from another country. I wonder if some of the dental techniques noted might have been such a clue.
And the big question today would be: Do investigators have DNA samples of these two? If they are indeed brother and sister as some have speculated, that would be a major bit of information to search data bases on.

VespaElf
10-05-2004, 11:32 AM
Its very big in Europe for young people to go "backpacking" (traveling around the world exploring aimlessly with everything in a backpack)
Part of that is hitchhiking(which in their home country is considered fairly safe)

I know in other countries numerous backpackers have been murdered/raped so I think its highly posssible they were foreign backpackers innocently accepting a ride from a trucker and an awful fate befell them.


I know from my relatives in Ireland they seem to have a skewed idea of the states and dont realise what a large and sometimes dangerous place it is and do things that are very risky without realising it.

carolina
10-06-2004, 08:59 AM
"While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine."

Is there any type of Canadian database for missing people?

Richard
10-07-2004, 06:38 PM
"While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine."

Is there any type of Canadian database for missing people?

Yes, the Doenetwork has a section on Canadians who are missing, as well as one for unidentified bodies found in Canada. You go to their website and then select either Missing, or Unidentified. You will be presented with a listing of all cases, or of the option to search Geographically or Chronologically.

link:
http://www.doenetwork.org

shadowangel
08-01-2005, 01:02 PM
I knew I could count on Richard to have posted this story....;)

Does anyone else see some similarities between this case and "Cali", the Jane Doe from Caledonia NY? I'll post my list later....

Richard
08-03-2005, 09:33 AM
I knew I could count on Richard to have posted this story....;)

Does anyone else see some similarities between this case and "Cali", the Jane Doe from Caledonia NY? I'll post my list later....
I would be interested in seeing your list. Although the two cases are separated by about three years and several hundred miles, I do see some similaritites. All Victims were shot and died of their gunshot wounds after being transported to remote areas. All were clothed, and all had jewlry on them. It would be interesting to see if any bullet slugs or shell casings were recovered - and if there was any match. Also, were there any footprints in the area which did not belong to the victims? That would be perhaps the best forensic link between these two unsolved cases.

shadowangel
08-03-2005, 12:34 PM
The information I have is all from internet sources, so the veracity may be questioned in some cases, but I only took note of information which came from at least two independent sources. As to Richard's questions, slugs were recoved from all three victims, but only those from "Cali" have been identified in the media-.38 caliber.

The areas the victims were found in is similar, rural but near major highways (just off I-95 in SC, "Cali" a few miles from I-390 along an intersecting road in NY)
All were shot with small caliber weapons
No shell casings were reported in either case
All were shot multiple times in the upper body, either head or throat and in the back
The females were wearing Native-American style jewelry
Jewelry was left with the victims and clothing were left with the victims, but no ID was located (the SC victims were not wearing underwear, but this could have been due to the hot southern summer weather or common practice in a different country)
In both cases, victims were wearing racing-related clothing believed to be limited production items (produced for one-time events or promotions)
The victims had all recently been in southern areas (the SC couple were reported to have been seen in FL, "Cali" had a distinct tan that could not have developed in NY in Nov)
Speculation that all may have been from another country
Speculation that all may have been hitch-hiking
Both females were similar in appearance ("Cali" 5'3" 120 brown hair 13-18 years of age, SC victim 5'5 105 brown hair 18 years of age)
Neither female victim had been sexually assaulted
No evidence of drug usage

Richard
08-04-2005, 01:03 AM
Interesting comparisons between the cases.

It would be interesting to know for certain what types of pistol and ammo were used in both cases. And to know if there were ever ballistics comparisons made between these or other cases.

Generally speaking, any pistol or revolver of 38 caliber and smaller could be considered small caliber, while those of .40, .41, .44 and .45 are usually considered large caliber weapons.

A semi-automatic pistol fires each time the trigger is squeezed, and with each shot, a casing is ejected. A revolver, on the other hand, retains its cartridge casings in the cylinder after a shot is fired. Since no casings were located, it is likely that the murder weapons were revolvers of either .38, .32 or .22 caliber - with .38 being the more likely. Revolver bullets are usually soft lead, while bullets fired by Semi-Automatics are more often copper jacketed.

Fired slugs, if recovered at the scene, can be used to determine the type and make of pistol used. They can also be compared to recovered bullets from other crime scenes to determine if there is an exact match.

mysteriew
08-04-2005, 01:47 AM
Am I wrong in thinking the FBI has a database that stores the info about the bullets, and is used for comparision in crimes- to see if they can match the crimes by the bullets? Would these have been submitted?

Richard
08-04-2005, 07:31 AM
Am I wrong in thinking the FBI has a database that stores the info about the bullets, and is used for comparision in crimes- to see if they can match the crimes by the bullets? Would these have been submitted?
I believe that the FBI does have such a database, but whether or not they were ever given these bullets, and whether or not they were able to "read" them is another thing. Sometimes a slug is so distorted that it makes classification difficult.

shadowangel
08-04-2005, 09:40 AM
as Richard pointed out in his original posts about this case (the following is from Court TV's CrimeLibrary.com)-
SC law enforcement recovered a weapon with the serial number partially filed off from a drunk driver, approximately four months after the murders. Bullets taken from the weapon matched those recovered from the bodies. The driver was released when his alibi apparently checked out.
If the calibers matched, it would seem easy enough to check the slugs recovered from "Cali" to this weapon. I would also hope the weapon would be checked with today's technology for further evidence.

Mullins
08-04-2005, 10:58 AM
as Richard pointed out in his original posts about this case (the following is from Court TV's CrimeLibrary.com)-
SC law enforcement recovered a weapon with the serial number partially filed off from a drunk driver, approximately four months after the murders. Bullets taken from the weapon matched those recovered from the bodies. The driver was released when his alibi apparently checked out.
If the calibers matched, it would seem easy enough to check the slugs recovered from "Cali" to this weapon. I would also hope the weapon would be checked with today's technology for further evidence.I have tried to gather info regarding databases for ballistics in the past too. I'm far from an expert on any of this. What I have found is that there is not a national requirement to enter ballistics into a database. (Unless like you mentioned the FBI becomes involved, or Vidocq, etc.) When I looked, I found that there are several ballistics databases (mostly by state and a couple by regions) and they are growing in amounts of information and popularity. I don't know how/who determines when or if cold case ballistics are entered into any sort of database. If you find this out please let me know. I would find it very helpful to have that info. I'm glad that someone else is interested in this too. Some of the ballistics database info links are here:
Note: Please don't be offended by the political nature of some of these links. I'm not trying to stir up any debate on gun control at all by providing these links. This is just info I came across when I was comparing cases like you are with Cali and the SC couple.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/crimelab/1830415
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ballistic
http://www.mitretek.org/publications/ccjt/02-Fingerprints.pdf
http://caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/2002/02-122.htm
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec02/ballistics.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19876-2005Apr1.html

shadowangel
08-04-2005, 11:26 AM
Please disregard part of my previous post, for some reason I had it in mind that "Cali's" murder came first. If the LE in SC had the recovered weapon in 1976, it is vey unlikely that it was used in a murder 3 years later! (Sometimes I scare myself...):waitasec:

Mullins
08-04-2005, 12:12 PM
No biggie, sounds like something I'd do or probably have done in the past. Sometimes the dates all run together at least for me.

coco
08-09-2005, 10:48 AM
...oh, were these kids European do you think?

http://websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gifFRENCH, they were french tourists possibly. This needs to be checked but 99.5% sure of this

shadowangel
08-09-2005, 11:08 AM
It is entirely possible...an unshaven female definitely points to a European connection, France most especially (also the lack of undergarments). It has been reported that the male used the name "Jock", or more likely, "Jacques" (sp?). He supposedly made the statement that his father was a doctor in Canda and that he had been disowned. It is certainly possible, in this scenario, that the family was from France. I considered it most likely a French-Canadian connection, but France is certainly a possibility.
Also, keep in mind this was the summer of the Bicentennial...The country basically stopped that summer to celebrate. I'm sure the number of visitors from other countries during that summer increased greatly, as there was something going on in every town and city throughout the country.

Richard
01-01-2006, 12:37 PM
Does anyone see similarity between this case and others?

PonderingThings
01-01-2006, 12:52 PM
I too think they were foreign tourists visiting the States for the celebrations. Although they may have said they were Canadian, I don't think they were (but that's just a guess on my part).

If the Jacques lead was really a true lead, why didn't LE go to the KOA office and ask to see their registration slips for that time period? KOAs required you to fill out a form saying your name, where you were from, etc.. Anyone could have written anything... but it makes you wonder why they would not have put their real information on the form.

Mullins
01-01-2006, 01:04 PM
I do. Either way is a possibility. Keeping in mind that during that time frame many females were "burning bras" and not adhering to prior social norms of feminine behaviors. Otherwise they may have just not been keeping up their normal hygiene due to camping etc.


Does anyone see similarity between this case and others?

mysteriew
01-01-2006, 01:20 PM
That is a good point about the KOA registration. It would have had at least the names of the camper that registered, and if they were in a vehicle they usually wanted the license number.
I wonder if there were any abandoned cars found in the area. If it was someone like a trucker- they would have had their truck and the campers vehicle to contend with.
I think the trucker should have been checked out, but I would have also checked out the KOA manager. Reportedly, he was the last to see them alive and he evidently didn't provide LE with a camper registration. He could have committed the murders, thinking that no one would remember the couple. Then later have become afraid that someone would remember, and thus given his version of the story in case someone mentioned them being at the camping area.

Mullins
01-01-2006, 01:31 PM
That is an interesting theory MW. It's true that most campgrounds take the name and address of driver, vehicle license #, number of people in party, and such. I wonder if they did check the registration (seems such a logical thing to do) and it didn't lead to anything? If not, makes you wonder who was managing that campground at the time.




That is a good point about the KOA registration. It would have had at least the names of the camper that registered, and if they were in a vehicle they usually wanted the license number.
I wonder if there were any abandoned cars found in the area. If it was someone like a trucker- they would have had their truck and the campers vehicle to contend with.
I think the trucker should have been checked out, but I would have also checked out the KOA manager. Reportedly, he was the last to see them alive and he evidently didn't provide LE with a camper registration. He could have committed the murders, thinking that no one would remember the couple. Then later have become afraid that someone would remember, and thus given his version of the story in case someone mentioned them being at the camping area.

PonderingThings
01-01-2006, 02:39 PM
Another possibility is that the campers were put in an "overflow" area, where registration wasn't required. This is usually an ajoining property which is close enough for the campers to use the bathrooms, etc., on the "official" grounds.

In other words, "off the books", discounted, cash. Many campgrounds do this kind of thing when availability is in short supply - like it was in 1976.

docwho3
01-01-2006, 07:09 PM
Has anyone looked at blown up versions of the pics from the crimeibrary.com site? It looks as if either the guy's shirt said something other than the coors name as listed or that someone actually wrote Sumpter on the shirt before snapping the pic.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/1-2-John-&-Jane-Doe-crime-s.jpg

PonderingThings
01-01-2006, 08:11 PM
Doc I don't see what you are referring to, but the shirt does say Sebring on it - perhaps that's what you are seeing? There is a full color photo of the shirt out there - I've seen it recently, but I went searching and can not locate it again http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/emotbanghead.gif


To everyone, the Doe Network has recently added new sketches for the John and Jane Doe. If you haven't visited in a while perhaps you'd like to take a peek of the new representations of what they look like? ...just letting you know.

docwho3
01-01-2006, 09:36 PM
Doc I don't see what you are referring to, but the shirt does say Sebring on it - perhaps that's what you are seeing? . . .I placed a bigger copy of the pic in my sumpter album at
http://photos.yahoo.com/docwho3
You should download it and view it in its actual size. I added the red circle.
As to the Sebring word note that the victem is layin with his front showing and his back is not seen and then read the description of the T-Shirt which says the back of the shirt had the Sebring word on it and not the front. Also the word in the pic does not appear to me to be the word Sebring.

''Coor's America's light beer'' scrawled across the front and ''Camel Challenger G T Sebring 75'' across the back.http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2.html

PonderingThings
01-01-2006, 09:57 PM
I was going from memory about the Sebring, so I suppose I am a dunce http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif

Funny, I don't see "Sumpter" but I do see "Syria".

Thanks for sharing the pic - I will be looking for that pic of the shirt again that I saw online.

docwho3
01-01-2006, 10:20 PM
I was going from memory about the Sebring, so I suppose I am a dunce http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif

Funny, I don't see "Sumpter" but I do see "Syria".

Thanks for sharing the pic - I will be looking for that pic of the shirt again that I saw online.
I was guessing about it maybe saying Sumpter. I was looking at a very large blowup of the pic and the blurriness made it hard to read but I knew they were in sumpter so I guessed maybe someone wrote on the shirt instead of using a piece of card board or paper. I thought that would be odd for them to do but it was just a wild guess anyway. In any case it sure didn't look like that Coors sentence they have in the description.

docwho3
01-01-2006, 10:23 PM
Another question is why was that description given out wrong?

PonderingThings
01-01-2006, 10:28 PM
You mean the 75 instead of the 76? They've had lots of time to correct that information and they never have. Perhaps its not wrong, perhaps its what it said.

docwho3
01-01-2006, 10:53 PM
You mean the 75 instead of the 76? They've had lots of time to correct that information and they never have. Perhaps its not wrong, perhaps its what it said.No, I meant the shirt in the pic having that totally different wording on its front than the description of the shirt said. To me that is a rather large difference. The difference over 75 versus 76 is not a major differernce but the front of that shirt in the pic is obviously completely different than saying ''Coor's America's light beer'' as the text describes on more than one website.

PonderingThings
01-02-2006, 12:03 AM
I searched again for the pic of the shirt and can't find it. I *think* it was on the police site, and its since been updated.

From what I recall the graphic was very strong, but at the same time entwined. I know that effect is not portrayed from the pic on the Crime Library site, but that's what I recall. The shirt was red with white lettering, with black highliting.

In the Crime Library pic the shirt is bunched. It is very possible (and I think very likely) that there is no word there - instead its the bunching in combination with the graphic on the shirt that makes it look like a word.

That's just my opinion Doc, I respect that yours may differ.

PonderingThings
01-02-2006, 12:18 AM
The 75 versus the 76 was commented on at another site I remember, although I found no current reference for it either. It was an oddity as the Sebring races had been recently held and 76 T Shirts were plentiful and readily available. Remember this was the year of lots of tourists - vendors were ready to Sell! Sell! Sell!

It raised the questions of:

If the man was a tourist and brought the shirt with him from the previous year, was that the only race he was planning to attend? Or were they race fans who wanted to travel from racetrack to racetrack?

Did the man buy an out of date T Shirt from a vendor and did not notice the year when he bought it?

Was the T Shirt from a clothing donation site? - As in, did any charity worker meet the couple?

There were a few other points, but as I recall the police checked them all out.

Disclaimer: I'm going on memory so I will not swear to the 100% accuracy of the above.... if I did I'd be http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif . Instead consider it a summary only.

docwho3
01-02-2006, 12:47 AM
. . .In the Crime Library pic the shirt is bunched. It is very possible (and I think very likely) that there is no word there - instead its the bunching in combination with the graphic on the shirt that makes it look like a word.

That's just my opinion Doc, I respect that yours may differ.I agree that the shirt bunching is a good possibility. I posted about the way it looked so that the rest of you might also look over the pic and give opinions on it. I could not really tell for sure but I knew that it did not look, to my eyes, as described so before I jump to conclusions I wanted to have others also looking at the shirt pic. Thanks for your input. (I don't have a favorite opinion on it yet.)

Alice253
01-02-2006, 01:07 AM
Y'all got me hooked. I've been looking at that shirt, but I'm really having a hard time with it. I have a question, though. They were both shot in the back, chest, and throat. OK, which came first, the shooting in the front (chest and throat), or the shooting in the back? In the crime scene photo, both are laying on their backs...were they found in that position, or turned over? If they were found in that position, it would probably mean that the last two shots were fired to their chests/throats. Of course, that's only if they were killed there. Too many questions and not enough information. :confused:

Mullins
01-03-2006, 03:35 PM
Could there have been writing both on the front and back of the shirt?




I was guessing about it maybe saying Sumpter. I was looking at a very large blowup of the pic and the blurriness made it hard to read but I knew they were in sumpter so I guessed maybe someone wrote on the shirt instead of using a piece of card board or paper. I thought that would be odd for them to do but it was just a wild guess anyway. In any case it sure didn't look like that Coors sentence they have in the description.

PonderingThings
02-05-2006, 05:55 PM
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1875dfvic.html (http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1875dfvic.html)

Julie Ann Garciacelay
Missing since July 1, 1975 from North Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Classification: Endangered Missing

Vital Statistics

* Date Of Birth: about 1956
* Age at Time of Disappearance: 19 years old
* Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 166cm tall.
* Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Long brown hair, olive complexion, medium build and an American accent.

*************
This American girl went missing a year earlier in Australia. Originally from California she moved to Australia to work. Her blood was found but she never was. She did go missing under suspicious circumstances.

All the stats fit, and her photo looks like the Jane Doe.

A very huge long shot though...

Marie
02-06-2006, 01:13 PM
About the unshaven legs - this couple was found in the mid-70's and it wasn't uncommon then for American women to go unshaven (both legs & underarms). I remember several of my female teachers having unshaven legs & arm pits during the 70's, and my aunts who were in their late teens/early 20's during that decade also didn't shave. I think it sounds likely that this couple was not American but wanted to put this information out there.

Hollow
02-06-2006, 02:14 PM
This female matches a lot of charactoristics of Jan Cotta missing from New Jersey June 23rd 1973. Her case is listed on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children website.

Marie
06-07-2006, 04:06 AM
There is a new article out about these two. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore wants to look deeper into the case, including digging up one of the bodies to get teeth.

Cold Case Mystery: Unidentified Sumter Co. murder victims (http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4952583)

MaryLiz
06-07-2006, 07:19 AM
Thanks for posting the update on this case. This is one I try to look up every couple months or so to see if there is anything new. It's going to be 30 years in August since these 2 unidentified people were found. I tried to do some extensive searching about 2 years ago in missing person databases in Canada. Apparently the man told someone at a campground his name was Jacques (?) and that he was the son of a famous doctor in Canada. I narrowed the search to the Quebec area since it is predominantly French-speaking. Of course, I came up with nothing. The Crime Library, that is connected with Court TV, did a story on them a couple years ago and they feature it on their home page every once in a while in case it will jog someone's memory. I think about these 2 people so often. I wish it would get solved soon, at least to even learn their identities.

Thanks again for posting this. Maybe this will get some much-needed renewed coverage with the 30th anniversary approaching!

LButler
06-07-2006, 12:02 PM
I think she is more likely to be listed as missing than him - don't really know why I think that. So, I looked for women in several states that her jewelry seems to be more common.

The only thing I found was Lynn Ruth Connes from CA. Missing since May 20, 1976. Here's her link:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/827dfca.html

There is mention of a silver ring with etching. Jane Doe had a 3rd ring that was not pictured.

Also, she was meeting a guy named Jeff who oddly matches the first initial in John Doe's ring?

Maybe this is someone she met and was planning to leave with so she lied to her family.

As to the unshaven legs, I wonder if it looked as though they had never been shaved or just not shaved in a while. And, as posted earlier, this was probably not that uncommon here in the US during the 70's.

wondering22
06-07-2006, 12:21 PM
....I tried to do some extensive searching about 2 years ago in missing person databases in Canada. Apparently the man told someone at a campground his name was Jacques (?) and that he was the son of a famous doctor in Canada. I narrowed the search to the Quebec area since it is predominantly French-speaking. Of course, I came up with nothing.



Ontario has recently set up a new missing persons & cold cases website ---- see Posting No.16 in this other thread about helpful "Cold Case" websites:


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259

MaryLiz
06-07-2006, 12:32 PM
Ontario has recently set up a new missing persons & cold cases website ---- see Posting No.16 in this other thread about helpful "Cold Case" websites:

Thanks for the link..I will definitely check it out when I have more time.

Here is a link from the Crime Library's story with actual photos of the 2 victims. I was looking at LButler's suggestion about a possible match to Lynn Ruth Connes who went missing from CA in May of 1976. I do see a resemblance but I just don't know...I know there's a link to the Crime Library story a few posts back but this is the page with their pictures from the coroner's photos to compare to Lynn Connes' photo.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6.html

LButler
06-08-2006, 09:56 AM
from the coroner. Lynn does not look much like her, I agree, Liz.

He looks VERY french and she looks Russian or German with that wide face.

I don't think they look like sis and bro?

Hollow
06-08-2006, 01:11 PM
Just thought I'd post this just in case:

http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/cold_case/post11coldcase1.htm

lilsister
06-08-2006, 05:22 PM
I agree that they both have a foreign --European look (whatever that means but I see what your saying). He had a lot of dental work and I know that other unidentifieds have been classified a possibly not being US born and bred due to their dental work being of a different quality.

lilsister
06-08-2006, 05:27 PM
And her legs were unshaven--girls from the US usually shave their legs. How sad to see such a young, beautiful couple murdered like that.

MaryLiz
06-08-2006, 09:56 PM
from the coroner. Lynn does not look much like her, I agree, Liz.

He looks VERY french and she looks Russian or German with that wide face.

I don't think they look like sis and bro?

He does look French....I'm not sure about her though. Someone from LE in Sumter remarked in one of the articles I read that they thought she was South American maybe?? I don't think they are brother and sister either. But as I mentioned before, any searching I can do on him I have been limiting to the Quebec area since he told someone he was the son of a doctor from Canada, and with the reported first name of Jacques..I think the initials on his ring were JPF...I was looking for a Jacques Philippe or Paul as Quebec is mostly French.

kylie
06-09-2006, 12:14 AM
Is there a possiblity that they were from Israel or another part of the Middle East? The "middle east" is actually a very diverse region that encompasses many religions, languages and races..........just a thought...

lilsister
06-09-2006, 02:16 AM
Totally there with you....his eyebrows, like mine, are very very thick ...suggesting a Mid-East or in my case dark Irish (you Know Spanish Armada connection). He totally looked Mid-East to me but I did not say it (still poss mexican). Her eye lashes were also very thick but that could be from anywhere I guess....possibly Turkish though? You are great at this!

MaryLiz
06-09-2006, 02:05 PM
Is there a possiblity that they were from Israel or another part of the Middle East? The "middle east" is actually a very diverse region that encompasses many religions, languages and races..........just a thought...
I never thought of Israeli or Middle Eastern but it certainly is a plausible thought. I just stayed within the realm of Canada and France because I assumed he was French. But he does look very much like he could have some Middle Eastern features.

LButler
06-10-2006, 10:59 AM
kinda looks like John Doe. Missing 1973 from Canada.

http://www.doenetwork.org/

case # 1956dmsk

pittsburghgirl
06-10-2006, 02:29 PM
kinda looks like John Doe. Missing 1973 from Canada.

http://www.doenetwork.org/

case # 1956dmsk


He does, but Percival is a bit taller and appears to part his hair on the other side (although it is possible that the photo presentation reverses that, I guess.) I notice that the hair in the photograph appears to be thinner that what is depicted in the police sketch.

Above there was an observation that the woman might be German or Slavic, based on the broad face. To me, she looks Native American, which would explain the jewelry, and also why she might be not appear as missing in typical databases. Native reservations are sovereign nations and have their own police distinct from those of the states in which they are located. There are circumstances where federal law and law enforcement are involved. What about tribal records of missing people?

About the gun: I copied this paragraph from Crime Library:

The man, who has since died, had an alibi: His wife was in a North Carolina*hospital, and witnesses told police he was there visiting her. Investigators, wanting to see for themselves if it were possible for the man to sneak away to Sumter County and speed back to the North Carolina hospital, timed the drive.

So he has what appears to be the gun, according to ballistics. But he has an alibi. Aside from the fact that eyewitnesses are often wrong about exact dates and times, the questions might be: who else had access to the gun? if he stole it, from whom? if he bought it or borrowed it, from whom?

It's not like North Carolina is two thousand miles away, after all.

Just some thoughts.

bykerladi
06-10-2006, 05:34 PM
I just read another thread on here where bones were tested for DNA to determine the body's heritage. Couldn't they do the same thing in this case, to find out what their ethnic heritage is? It might held lead to where their family is.Here's the story from the other thread:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3901100.html

HollywoodBound
06-10-2006, 08:29 PM
If they have the serial # from his watch I wonder if it can be checked where that watch was sent to be sold...even if it's just the country. So much time has passed now but I wonder if they tried that back when the bodies were found and know but have not disclosed.

MaryLiz
06-10-2006, 09:45 PM
I just read another thread on here where bones were tested for DNA to determine the body's heritage. Couldn't they do the same thing in this case, to find out what their ethnic heritage is? It might held lead to where their family is.Here's the story from the other thread:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3901100.html
On the second page of this thread, post #44 it gives a new link from a S. Carolina newspaper that says Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore, who has been working on this case since 1976, now wants to exhume one of the bodies to get a set of teeth. She doesn't say which one or why but maybe it's the guy again because they said he had such expensive dental work done. But that's very interesting about testing the bones to determine heritage. I've never heard of that before!

MaryLiz
06-10-2006, 09:50 PM
If they have the serial # from his watch I wonder if it can be checked where that watch was sent to be sold...even if it's just the country. So much time has passed now but I wonder if they tried that back when the bodies were found and know but have not disclosed.
In the Crime Library story on them it says they did check out the serial #, page 3 of the link below. On the last page of the story, the same page that has the coroner's photos, it lists the serial #. About a year and a half ago I actually tried to do research on it but couldn't find anything!

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html

Richard
06-12-2006, 09:31 AM
Here is what the Doenetwork link states about the girl's Jewelry:


Jewelry: Three Silver rings that resembled American Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. One piece was a faceted band with red, white and blue stones. Another ring had a oblong black stone. The third was a large, intricate feather scroll band with a jade insert into the curves of the scroll.

Looking at the link, you see the second and third rings, but not the first. The year 1976 was when the country was celebrating the Bicentennial. There was Red, White, and Blue stuff in abundance that year. My guess is that the first ring was something of a Bicentennial nature.

The other two rings seem to be good quality Indian made silver rings. The oblong black stone seems to have some turquoise pieces set into it. The turquoise stones are naturally shaped, but the black oblong stone is very symetrical, which is something of an anomaly in regard to Indian Jewelry, since symetrical stones are not normal. Usually the silver is worked into the natural shape of the stone.

I believe that the third described ring is likely the best piece of Indian Jewelry, and the most unique. It might be the piece which can be linked most easily to the craftsman who made it. I believe that the narrative is incorrect, however. It does not appear to be a Jade stone, but rather a Red Coral stone and a Turquoise.

Rle7
06-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Here is what the Doenetwork link states about the girl's Jewelry:

I believe that the third described ring is likely the best piece of Indian Jewelry, and the most unique. It might be the piece which can be linked most easily to the craftsman who made it. I believe that the narrative is incorrect, however. It does not appear to be a Jade stone, but rather a Red Coral stone and a Turquoise.You are correct. That ring is turquoise and red coral. It resembles the one at this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Lot-of-Vintage-Sterling-Turquoise-Coral-Jewelry_W0QQitemZ8946142591QQihZ004QQcategoryZ9850 0QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The ring appears to be Zuni made, a tribe in the southwestern US area. It could be Hopi or Navajo also. I hitchhiked a lot across North America in the late 1970's. Bisbee, Arizona was considered a mecca for this type of jewelry back then, and many fellow travellers stopped there to buy turquoise and socialize with the hip crowd there. Maybe someone from Bisbee sold them this ring?

MaryLiz
06-12-2006, 06:09 PM
Yes, it definitely looks like turquoise, not jade. I was thinking too, the guy had some matches from Grant's Truck Stop in his pants pocket. There was a Grant's in New Mexico so maybe they got the jewelry there?? Of course there were other Grant's truck stops back then including Nebraska and Idaho but New Mexico would be another plausible Southwestern state they could have visited...

Richard
07-06-2006, 01:31 PM
The 30 year anniversary of this case is approaching: 9 August. Any theories or ideas on it. Keep an eye out for possible anniversary press coverage.

Hollow
07-06-2006, 03:24 PM
I really think the Kentucky couple I listed should be at least considered, and they were heading for a truck stop allegedly. I don't understand that site, all the missing persons they have listed on there have no description, and none of them are listed on any of the major missing persons data-bases. Like we're supposed to just know what they looked like.

KJERVIS
07-06-2006, 07:32 PM
They both look Spanish to me. Since Spain shares a border with France so it would not be unusual for the man to have a french name, especially if he was from say Catalonia.

MaryLiz
08-09-2006, 09:40 AM
Just bumping this case up...today is the 30th anniversary. I checked the Sumter newspaper today but didn't find any new articles. The last I heard, in June I think Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore wanted to exhume the bodies to get a set of teeth from one of them. I haven't heard anything new beyond that though.

Richard
11-03-2006, 01:26 PM
Has anyone seen any 30th anniversary articles, or any updates on this case?


Here is a link to a website titled: "Sumter County, SC John and Jane Doe". It features composite drawings of the two unidentified victims.
Link:
http://meyahna.tripod.com/pg5.html

MaryLiz
11-03-2006, 06:37 PM
I haven't heard anything..and I check on this almost every day. The last news I heard was in June as mentioned in the post above yours that I put on here on the 30th anniversary. Here is a link to the Sumter County Sheriff cold case page..it has a different sketch of the two.

http://www.sumtersheriff.org/unsolved.htm

There are also other cases on there...a very sad one at the bottom about a man and his teenage son who were murdered in their convenience store in Sumter in 1992 which is still unsolved.

But again, nothing new on the Mystery Couple.

Mr. E
11-03-2006, 08:14 PM
This missing man from Sweden resembles the John Doe. Not much to compare other than a physical resemblance.

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/939dmswe.html

gardenmom
11-03-2006, 08:44 PM
Just thought I'd post this just in case:

http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/cold_case/post11coldcase1.htm
Did you ever forward this info to the police dept. to see if its a match?

Becba
11-04-2006, 12:02 AM
Both were shot in the exact same places-back, chest and throat. That is very odd to me. Anyone check for other unsolveds with similar wounds?

MaryLiz
03-10-2007, 10:08 PM
Bumping this case up...

I haven't found anything new on this since last June...I'm just wondering if the Sumter County Coroner ever exhumed the bodies to get the set of teeth they wanted for additional testing.

LisainWV
03-10-2007, 10:48 PM
Bumping this case up...

I haven't found anything new on this since last June...I'm just wondering if the Sumter County Coroner ever exhumed the bodies to get the set of teeth they wanted for additional testing.
Would be nice if they would extract some dna and see if they are siblings. Could make a big difference in how to id them. Was he hitchhiking and "met" her, she decided to travel with him...??

You would think that since they appeared to be "well to do" that the ring is probably his own, hence his initials.

MaryLiz
03-11-2007, 03:06 PM
Would be nice if they would extract some dna and see if they are siblings. Could make a big difference in how to id them. Was he hitchhiking and "met" her, she decided to travel with him...??

You would think that since they appeared to be "well to do" that the ring is probably his own, hence his initials.
Yes, I wish there would be some news as to whether they exhumed the bodies and were able to get DNA. For some reason, I keep thinking she was either his girlfriend or just a friend. I don't think they were siblings. But I could be wrong. I also can't get it out of my head that he was French Canadian and possibly from Quebec. I know there have been other postings on here as to their ethnicity and some good points have been brought up about what nationality they could have been. But I keep going back to what an employee at a KOA campground in SC said, that he thought he played pool with the male victim and he told him he was the son of a famous doctor from Canada, who disowned him because he gave up his own career in medicine. The witness said he thought his first name was Jock which the SC investigators determined was probably Jacques. I thought then that the initials maybe stood for something like Jacques-Pierre, Jacques-Phillipe, Jacques-Paul?? I could be way off base but that has always been at the back of my mind since first reading about this.

LisainWV
03-22-2007, 10:57 PM
I agree that they don't "seem" to be siblings. Surely 2 kids missing would be reported??

KarlK
03-23-2007, 01:40 PM
But I keep going back to what an employee at a KOA campground in SC said, that he thought he played pool with the male victim and he told him he was the son of a famous doctor from Canada, who disowned him because he gave up his own career in medicine.

This would explain why the guy appeared wealthier than your average wanderer I guess but it's hard to believe a prominent citizen and/or his relatives would fail to report his son missing even if he had disowned him, or that the gossip media paid no attention to it. Has anyone checked if someone matching his description was reported missing in Canada at the time?

As for the girl she may just have been someone he had met on the road while hitchhiking in which case these would be separate cases, making it all the harder to solve.

MaryLiz
03-23-2007, 08:23 PM
I can't imagine someone not reporting their child missing either. But I know that some people can be very proud and stubborn. If he was disowned, his father may well have decided he wasn't going to make the first move, thinking his son would come back begging him to reconsider. No matter how proud or angry his father was though, I would think even by the end of that summer of 1976 he would have started searching for his son. Even if his father washed his hands of the whole matter you would think someone else in his family would start searching for him. And what of the girl's family?? Someone has to be looking for her. The one thing that occurred to me is maybe both families had no idea where these kids went for sure. Maybe they just told them there were going to travel and didn't say exactly where. Or they could have told someone they were going to some of the Western United States and then they decided to go to South Carolina and some of the other Southern States after that and no one knew that. The male victim had matches in his pocket from Grant's Truck Stop and they were located in Idaho, Nebraska and New Mexico, none of which are anywhere near SC. Despite that, with the Doe Network and such, you would think that someone would have looked for them on there or a similar missing persons website. But they may be looking in the missing persons section under their names and not in the unidentified victims section.

About 2 years ago I did try looking on a Canadian missing persons website but, of course, I can't find it now. I'm going to keep looking as time allows. It's just so frustrating to not know for sure where they came from. And it has to be equally frustrating for their relatives and friends who don't know for sure where they went.

:doh:

bykerladi
03-23-2007, 11:23 PM
How about this?

http://www.missingchildren.ca/Dispstpg.htm?ID=1&NL=1

annemc2
03-24-2007, 01:51 AM
Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

MaryLiz
03-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

You're absolutely right, I didn't even think of that. It seems to me the guy at the campground would have mentioned it if "Jock" had an accent but you never know. If he had been from Quebec he may have had a French accent perhaps. If he was born and raised there he would learn to speak French but when speaking English he would not have spoken it as if he was from France, with a heavy accent most likely. Many Canadians do have sort of an accent. For instance, words that have an "ou" that we pronounce as sounding like "ow", they say it more like "oa" Like out, would sound like oat. Maybe both of them talked like that and the KOA guy didn't necessarily think that sounded like a true accent. Excellent point though.

bykerladi - that was not the site I found earlier but it's a good site. I have a notion to e-mail them and explain about the missing couple and send the info from Charley Project or Doe Network and the Crime Library article to see if they have any matches in their database. It's worth a try if they can check it out. Thanks.

KarlK
03-24-2007, 03:58 PM
Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.

MaryLiz
03-24-2007, 08:22 PM
The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.

You're right, Karl. That's exactly what I was trying to say in the post above yours but you said it much more eloquently. And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.

KarlK
03-25-2007, 01:27 AM
And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.

By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada? That's also my impression, based on the absence of a discernible accent and also his dental work. Apparently European dentistry can often be distinguished from dental work performed in US/Canada and the coroner's remarks in this case seem to indicate he thought the dental work had been done in North America.

I guess the only factor that goes against these individuals being from North America is the fact they were not reported missing or at least not that we know of. AFAIK the main missing persons databases in both the US and Canada are integrated due to geographical and cultural proximity, therefore someone reported missing in Canada would be listed as missing on US databases as well, and vice versa. The link provided by bykerladi is a good example of such seamless integration.

This particular case has received a lot of attention. If I recall well the first time I read about it was in a national publication (probably Reader's Digest if memory serves) in the late 1970's or early 1980's and since then it has been featured in the electronic media a number of times, enough to be more familiar than usual to most people. Yet despite this publicity, these two still remain Does after 30 years. Not a single serious lead has ever surfaced, it boggles the mind. I'm starting to think only a deathbed confession could ever solve it.

MaryLiz
03-25-2007, 08:55 AM
By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada?

Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.

bykerladi
03-25-2007, 02:45 PM
Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.

MaryLiz
03-25-2007, 04:42 PM
Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.

I agree, in fact that is what I thought all along. His father maybe believed from the day his son was born that he would follow in his footsteps and when he didn't he probably was so angry he literally disowned him. The father's pride and anger may have run so deep that he did consider his disowning him a permanent thing. If the father is alive he may still be waiting for his son to back down and make the first move, as ridiculous as that sounds after nearly 31 years. Unfortunately, it probably happens more than we know, relationships that are shattered forever because of pride and anger, one or the other party refusing to back down and make the first move. I also thought that possibly he was his only son or maybe even his only child which would make him all the more angry at his refusal to pursue a career in medicine. It's very sad.

KarlK
03-25-2007, 11:29 PM
Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.

Quebec remains a good candidate for the man's home, "Jacques" pronounced with a Quebec accent would indeed sound exactly like "Jock" in English. As for the girl however I agree that her unshaven legs seem to indicate she was neither from Canada nor the US. I remember that at the time the only women who would walk around with visible hairy legs in North America tended to belong to the hippie persuasion and the young woman's clothes and general appearance doesn't point to a hippie lifestyle. I'm no expert but her jewelry evokes Central or South America to me for some reason.

Anyway, it is my impression that there is a strong possibility that these two had not known each other for long (if at all) and that we may be dealing with two missing individuals rather than a missing couple.

Another possibility, but I admit it's a long shot, would be that they were held captive for some time prior to being killed, which also provides an explanation for unshaven legs. But their clean clothes and the fact that the man had obviously had access to shaving gear makes this unlikely.

azure
03-26-2007, 05:57 AM
I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly

LisainWV
03-26-2007, 10:02 AM
I think she is more likely to be listed as missing than him - don't really know why I think that. So, I looked for women in several states that her jewelry seems to be more common.

The only thing I found was Lynn Ruth Connes from CA. Missing since May 20, 1976. Here's her link:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/827dfca.html

There is mention of a silver ring with etching. Jane Doe had a 3rd ring that was not pictured.

Also, she was meeting a guy named Jeff who oddly matches the first initial in John Doe's ring?

Maybe this is someone she met and was planning to leave with so she lied to her family.

As to the unshaven legs, I wonder if it looked as though they had never been shaved or just not shaved in a while. And, as posted earlier, this was probably not that uncommon here in the US during the 70's.




This is my earlier post about her (under my old username). I still think she fits fairly well.

Does anyone know if they have checked out any missing people against either one?

the Connes story also reminds me of the recent info about the photographer/serial killer guy. Don't remember the name and no time to look it up at the moment. Anyway, she was supposedly meeting a photographer when she came up missing.??

Here's here link with the .org fixed.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/827dfca.html

Maybe this john doe was a photographer and she decided to take off with him. If he was well to do and had a nice camera, maybe the killer took it. Stretching, I know, but there could be a thousand stories for these two.

annemc2
03-26-2007, 11:52 AM
I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly

Hmmm, that's another one of those instances where the details really do mean a lot. Did she simply have stubble from being on the road, or was the hair on her legs long and soft, without signs of regular shaving? I know it would take quite awhile for my leg hair to grow out - after it gets to a certain point it gets kinda gross to me and I have to shave it! But your point is valid - even if the hair on her legs was long it could have been from her spending lots of time on the road. But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).

KarlK
03-26-2007, 12:35 PM
But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).

That was my impression because they didn't say it appeared her legs had not been shaved for a while, just that they were unshaven. But one must keep in mind that a coroner's report doesn't always make that kind of distinction so without further details it's difficult to assess the importance of this detail. Personally I just thought it was odd because she was wearing a skirt; I would imagine that if she hadn't shaved simply because she was on a camping trip she would have worn pants. But I'm a guy so I could be totally off the mark about this. I remember that back in the 1970's (I was a teen then) many young women weren't as self-conscious about such details as they are now.

Sable
03-26-2007, 07:09 PM
Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:xGIl2NukiCwJ:www.hankstruckpictures .com/df_cf.htm+%22Grant%27s%22+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.

MaryLiz
03-28-2007, 06:51 PM
Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:xGIl2NukiCwJ:www.hankstruckpictures .com/df_cf.htm+%22Grant%27s%22+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.

Sable, good work on the Grant's Truck Stop photos. I couldn't find any photos for them when I Googled them, but that was about 2 years ago. Possibly the girl was from out west and met John Doe in New Mexico, Utah or Arizona and joined him on his travels from there??? I don't know though, it sort of struck me that she was with him from the beginning and when they were out west she loved the jewelry and bought the rings. It said she was wearing 3 rings that resembled American-Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. They don't look all that worn in the photograph on the Doe Network, they look pretty new to me. Even though the black ring is onyx it still looks similar to Indian jewelry with the 3 turquoise pieces on it.

I also went back to the missing Canadians website bykerladi provided in post #81 to search again but came up empty. Although it says Missing Children, there are a few people who were adults when they went missing that are listed on there.

Unfortunately, LisainWV is right in post #92 when she says there could be a thousand stories for these two.

MaryLiz
06-12-2007, 08:01 AM
Here is a new article about the mystery couple. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore was finally successful in getting them exhumed for bone and dental samples. I sure hope with the DNA they can soon identify them!

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770612004

kwatson696
06-12-2007, 08:13 AM
Thank You for that link liz I hope something will come out of this, I live in S.C. and ride by that very area when visiting my daughter......

LisainWV
06-12-2007, 09:43 PM
Great post Liz....
I'm curious to see if they are related or whatever they can find out.
Thanks!!

MaryLiz
06-13-2007, 07:49 AM
Here is another, slightly more in-depth article. There is video of the exhumation along with it. It will be interesting to see if they are actually related or not. I don't think they are but you never know. Just getting their identities from the DNA would be wonderful!

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572

Marie
06-13-2007, 01:15 PM
I don't think they're related either. Two siblings missing would just be too obvious- somebody would be looking for them. I can't wait either to learn about the DNA results, too bad it could take years.

Sleuthster
06-13-2007, 03:47 PM
what about this guy?

Chin and nose are simular in my opinion and his last name is french.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1259dmmi.html

Rhett
06-13-2007, 04:56 PM
I have to disagree. The last article posted had a picture of them in death and I do think they could be related. What about children of mobsters and maybe it was a mob related hit. Maybe they are from Sicily. MOO

anthrobones
06-13-2007, 06:49 PM
That was a thought I had--Italian?

Sleuthster
06-13-2007, 06:53 PM
I have to disagree. The last article posted had a picture of them in death and I do think they could be related. What about children of mobsters and maybe it was a mob related hit. Maybe they are from Sicily. MOO

I do not believe that they are of Sicilian decent. I am a Sicilian American and they just don't apear to be italian or sicilian, he difinatly does not have the italian bulbous nose (think Tony Soprano nose :rolleyes: ).

I believe he is French Canadian. His ring has the initials JPF and he told the RV park guy that his name was Jock or Jacques and he was from Canada and the son of a doctor. I think he is telling the truth.

The girl does not match him. I think she is someone he met while hitchhiking around the country. In the 1970's we had just ended Vietnam and there where still hippies wandering around the country. He could have met her anywhere and hooked up with her and they decided to travel. Look at the jewery, tourquois indian jewelry was very common at flea markets in the 70's and 80's. It would be one thing if she had one ring, maybe two. She had 3 rings and no fancy bling like the guy did. This tells me she did not come from money like him. Hippy women did not shave their legs either, this was common knowledge. They believed in living naturally, or something to that nature.

Also, it is difficult to tell what someone's skin tone is and facial features are from morgue photos. You have to remember that rigermortis (hope I spelt that right :waitasec: ) can cause darkening of the skin especially if they where on their stomachs when they deceased. also it may also cause the face to look more bloated. It also depends on how long it was before they found them.

Also, the Coor's light shirt, I don't know any one italian that would be caught dead (no pun intended) in a shirt advertising light beer.

I think they crossed someone. This does not look like a robbery motive and was not a sex crime, possibly over drugs. The are many different forms of organized crime through history, drug cartel, moonshiners, good ole boys that grow pot by back roads. They could have come across any of those. They where making a statement and that is why they did not take the jewelry.

of course this is based on my opinion and :twocents: 2 cents.

MaryLiz
06-13-2007, 07:24 PM
what about this guy?

Chin and nose are simular in my opinion and his last name is french.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1259dmmi.html


I don't think that's him. Perry Corlew's disappearance was being investigated as a possible match with an unidentified suicide victim in Louisana. I don't know whatever happened with that possible matchup. Here a link to the previous discussion on websleuths about the unidentified male and possibly being linked to Corlew.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32202&highlight=Perry+Corlew


I agree with what you said in your second post. I do think the Mystery Couple male is French Canadian. I also think the JPF is Jacques something and when I do any searches on missing people in Canada, I zero in on Quebec, since it is predominantly French speaking. I just don't know where she comes in though, whether she was someone he knew and they took off together or if he met her in his travels across the USA.

It was very interesting watching the video on the exhumation at the link I posted on the previous page. I hope they can get results soon from the DNA. Poor Sumter County Coroner, Verna Moore, has been working this case since August of 1976, and for her sake too, I wish they could at least identify them.

KT Can
06-13-2007, 08:29 PM
http://charleyproject.org/cases/m/mansfield_michael.html

just a thought.....

MaryLiz
08-09-2007, 07:29 AM
Bumping up case..

Today is the 31st anniversary of their murder.

I haven't found anything new since the bodies were exhumed for DNA 2 months ago. There is nothing about the results of the DNA yet either but that may take quite a while.

bowler
08-09-2007, 05:06 PM
Their bodies were exhumed in June in hopes of extracting usable teeth and bone samples.


http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148

LisainWV
08-09-2007, 09:50 PM
Good article, bowler, thanks for posting it.

Maybe DNA will Id them eventually!!

s_finch
08-09-2007, 11:52 PM
Also, the Coor's light shirt, I don't know any one italian that would be caught dead (no pun intended) in a shirt advertising light beer.

I think they crossed someone. This does not look like a robbery motive and was not a sex crime, possibly over drugs. The are many different forms of organized crime through history, drug cartel, moonshiners, good ole boys that grow pot by back roads. They could have come across any of those. They where making a statement and that is why they did not take the jewelry.

of course this is based on my opinion and :twocents: 2 cents.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Coors wasn't being transported to the South in the 70's so I doubt the shirt came from the south. Obviously this couple was traveling and their travels had taken them west to Coors country.

Good ole' southern boys seldom shoot people for 1) finding their pot patch (and it's not like the patches are so easy to find that two wandering travelers would stumble upon one anyway) and 2) I've lived in SC all my life and the only time I'm aware of execution type slayings occurring (as these two were shot) happens when you cross a gang, mafia/mobsters, serious drug runners---good ole boys don't go for that professional hit stuff, it's too upclose and messy. And yes, moonshiners do exist here l and did in the 70s but no legal agency gives a darn about moonshiners and so stumbling upon a still wouldn't get you killed, trust me. I don't think they were killed by locals. I think they were executed by someone driving through SC who thought this would make the perfect dumping ground. Now how they met up with the perp, I have no clue. Maybe they accepted a ride from a serial murderer, maybe they tried to outsmart a drug dealer and lost---weren't they found close to I-95? I-95 is a major drug smuggling corridor, from FL all the way up the east coast.

bykerladi
08-10-2007, 09:23 AM
So its possible they weren't even killed in South Carolina, right? That makes things MUCH more difficult.

MaryLiz
08-10-2007, 03:02 PM
I've been meaning to post this for a while but I cannot find the newspaper articles where I read it.

Regarding where they were shot and also regarding if the trucker who discovered their bodies could have done it:

I read 2 similar news articles from South Carolina papers about 3 years ago. From what I can remember the articles stated that shortly after midnight, someone who lived in the vicinity of Locklair Road where the victims were found, was awakened when he heard a car come down the Locklair Road at a rather high speed and screech to a halt. He heard car doors slamming and almost immediately after that heard gunshots. He then heard car doors being shut and the screech of tires again as the car took off.

I know I read that twice in 2 different SC papers. I bookmarked one of them and when I went back to re-read it again, I couldn't bring the page back up; it said the web page was no longer available.

Locklair Road is a frontage, dirt road located beween Interstate 95 and S.C. 341. The area is apparently secluded and there aren't many houses around but one person who lived nearby gave that information to the police.

I have been looking in NewspaperArchives.com off and on for the last week or so trying to find that article again. I can't find it anywhere but I'm going to keep looking because I know I read that. I'm wondering why that info wasn't in The Item, the Sumter, SC Newspaper (or maybe that was one of the papers I read it in) or in the Crime Library story but I know I read it in 2 different publications so I will keep looking. If that were true, it at least clears up 2 points we have been wondering about, where exactly they were shot and that the trucker who found them did did not have anything to do with it. I never did think the truck driver was involved but if I hadn't read what the witness who lived nearby had said, the truck driver being involved was a possibility.

I also can't figure out why whoever heard these gunshots didn't call authorities. I think the article said he was sleeping and he was awakened by the commotion and wasn't thinking too clearly or else just thought someone was shooting off a gun and didn't realize people had actually been shot. I think I would have called authorities just the same had I heard gunshots. With the number of times these kids were shot, surely he didn't think he was hearing a car backfiring!

Anway, I will continue to look for the article.

MaryLiz
08-10-2007, 07:39 PM
Well, I wasn't able to find the exact article but there aren't many newspapers from SC at NewspaperArchives.com. I found one from the Florence Morning News from August 11, 1976 that says they thought they were shot right there and that nearby residents heard gunshots between midnight and 1:00 a.m.


Bodies Located Monday
Are Still Unidentified
SUMTER (AP)-


Sumter authorities believe an unidentified man and woman whose bodies were found Monday on a dirt road near the Florence County line probably were out of state travelers. "We've sent teletypes everywhere," Kumler County Sheriff I. Byrd Parnell said, adding that they had received inquiries from as far away as Rhode Island. He also said that bulletins describing the two have been sent to other states and missing persons reports are being checked. The two were found about 6:20 a.m. near 1-95 and S.C. 141 by a man on his way to work. The dead man was about six feet tall, weighed 150 to 160 pounds and had brown shoulder-length hair. The woman was about 5-5, weighed about 110 pounds and had reddish brown hair. Both are believed to have been in their early 20s. "This girl was very young and very pretty. He was clean shaven. They were well groomed. They weren't the hippie-type. They looked like the All-American boy and girl travelers," Parnell said, "It looks like they were executed right there."



Sumter County Coroner J. Bennie Raffield said the bodies were about four or five feet apart and that both were lying on their backs. The two are believed to have been shot between midnight Sunday and 1 a.m. Monday, the coroner said. Area residents reported hearing gunshots from the area about that time.



I think they probably were shot right where they were found.

Richard
08-10-2007, 11:00 PM
I wonder if these two might have witnessed a murder or other crime and were "eliminated" to keep them from identifying the perpetrators. Does anyone know of any Roberies or Murders in that general area just prior to their murder?

phenolred
08-14-2007, 08:18 AM
I wonder if these two might have witnessed a murder or other crime and were "eliminated" to keep them from identifying the perpetrators. Does anyone know of any Roberies or Murders in that general area just prior to their murder?
This is a very good theory....Seems like a professional hit....they could be witnesses OR I was thinking maybe they could be a mobsters kids or somebody the mob had it out for's kids and they killed the kids as a warning to shut their mouths or they would be next, and sometimes people would rather hurt those you love as a way to hurt you,

rmf
08-20-2007, 01:40 PM
I agree with the French-Canadian angle. I am very familiar with that culture and have spent a lot of time in France as well. Many French nationals travel to Canada (particularly Quebec) so it is possible the young lady was of French or European origin (the unshaven legs are also another clue, IMO). Also, there are people with French names/backgrounds all over Canada. Many of them are concentrated in Quebec, but you will find men named Jacques in almost any province in Canada. I think that this young man and his companion most definitely came from Canada- what I don't understand is why no one seems to be looking for them?

Rhett
08-20-2007, 01:59 PM
A few posts back someone posted that Coors was not being brought into the South in the 1970's. Not legally it wasn't but it was being brought in illegally. My father was a trucker and though I don't know of him bringing it in I did see some that was brought in illegally by another trucker. I heard talk about Coors and it being illegal made it a big deal and people wanted it. Extra money was made for truckers to run the stuff into the South. I also remember people hiding it under their beds and such so that it was not out in plain view, just in case.

MaryLiz
08-20-2007, 07:05 PM
I agree with the French-Canadian angle. I am very familiar with that culture and have spent a lot of time in France as well. Many French nationals travel to Canada (particularly Quebec) so it is possible the young lady was of French or European origin (the unshaven legs are also another clue, IMO). Also, there are people with French names/backgrounds all over Canada. Many of them are concentrated in Quebec, but you will find men named Jacques in almost any province in Canada. I think that this young man and his companion most definitely came from Canada- what I don't understand is why no one seems to be looking for them?

I often wonder the same thing myself, how can NO ONE be searching for them? I mentioned in an earlier post that apparently Jacques told the guy at the KOA Campground he had a falling out with his father, who was a prominent doctor in Canada, because he gave up his medicine career. I thought maybe his father was very stubborn and refused to make the first move, thinking Jacques may have just left to start a new life elsewhere. But that could only be true for a short time period, I would think. What about his mother or siblings, if he has any? If not, surely he has other family members such as cousins or even friends who would search. And the same for the girl. There just has to be someone looking for these 2. Every couple months or so I stay up very late on weekends and try to search old Canadian newspapers and missing person websites looking for anyone who might resemble them and I just get so frustrated thinking that possibly no one ever reported them missing in the first place!

Angie4b1g
08-20-2007, 07:17 PM
Did the guy from the campsite mention either of them having a french (or any other for that matter) accent?

rmf
08-20-2007, 07:22 PM
Did the guy from the campsite mention either of them having a french (or any other for that matter) accent?

Good question!? On another note, I've known many Québécois that spoke perfect and unaccented English, along with French... so it could've been hard to tell. It's also interesting to note there are also Cajuns/Creole that speak with an interesting accent in that part of the country so if an accent was present, it may have gone unnoticed...

Angie4b1g
08-20-2007, 07:53 PM
https://www.ebiz.police.nsw.gov.au/missingpersonsenquiry/displayIndividualDetails.do?photoRefNum=19264

That got me excited for a second until I saw that this guy was about 9" too short.

Angie4b1g
08-20-2007, 08:04 PM
Just thinking outloud... if the guy had any kind of accent, he maybe could have been saying his name was "Jack", as well.

MaryLiz
08-20-2007, 08:40 PM
Just thinking outloud... if the guy had any kind of accent, he maybe could have been saying his name was "Jack", as well.

I do remember reading in one of the many articles I have read about this case that the guy at KOA did detect an accent of some sort. I've been searching to see if I could find the article but I can't. The closest I can come to it is the description on the Doe Network where the KOA guy said his name was "Jock" and authorities determined it was probably "Jacques". So he probably did have an accent if the guy heard "Jock" when he said his name. The trouble with some of these articles are that they are not accessible anymore. I bookmarked 2 or 3 of them a couple years ago and couldn't open them anymore when I tried to go back and re-read them. I know it's on another post on here somewhere but I provided the Doe Network listing for him.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

Angie4b1g
08-20-2007, 08:48 PM
That makes me like this Jacques Bellchambers even more. I wonder if there could be a typo in the height.

Here's his Doe Network page http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2217dmnsw.html

It says he went missing with 4 other people, maybe one of them is the Jane Doe. I can't find any information on those other 4 people anywhere. Sigh.

kwatson696
08-20-2007, 08:57 PM
I found this also Angie, maybe it will say something about the others he was traveling with.

http://www.supernerd.com.au/~glittercot/NSWMaleSydneyCold.html


LOL I know, it says "supernerd" but it really does have missing people from that area.

Angie4b1g
08-20-2007, 09:14 PM
I checked that site, too. No further mention of the Williams other than in Jacques' story. :(

MaryLiz
08-20-2007, 09:20 PM
That makes me like this Jacques Bellchambers even more. I wonder if there could be a typo in the height.

Here's his Doe Network page http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2217dmnsw.html

It says he went missing with 4 other people, maybe one of them is the Jane Doe. I can't find any information on those other 4 people anywhere. Sigh.

There is a strong resemblance. It said in the Crime Library story that the ring that was found on John Doe had the initials JPF so I was thinking maybe Jacques-Paul or Jacques-Phillippe or something like that. He also tried to pawn an expensive ring to the KOA guy for some cash though so it probably was the ring with the initials on it. I think that was the only ring he had on him. Maybe the ring belonged to someone else though and he was just trying to get some money for it. At least we're fairly certain of the "Jacques" part of his name.

Beyond Belief
08-20-2007, 10:21 PM
So far, the only Grants Truck Stop tht I found was in Boise Idaho. I found an old postcard for sale on ebay for it.

Angie4b1g
08-21-2007, 02:43 PM
Got this response from Sumter Co. Sheriff's Dept regarding Jacques:


Angie,
Thank you for your interest in this case. I have compared the photograph of “Jacques” to the photograph of our unknown male. Sorry to say, that “Jacques” is not our unknown male victim. The DNA analysis of our victims will be conducted in the near future by the FBI. The DNA codes will be submitted to all DNA Data Bases worldwide to determine if a relative of our victims is in the Data Bases. Again, thank you for your interest.


Don't know how he's so sure just by comparing the photographs, but what else can I say? :)

I'd imagine they probably have the morgue photos, as well as the reconstructions that we're seeing.

MaryLiz
08-21-2007, 03:24 PM
Got this response from Sumter Co. Sheriff's Dept regarding Jacques:



Don't know how he's so sure just by comparing the photographs, but what else can I say? :)

I'd imagine they probably have the morgue photos, as well as the reconstructions that we're seeing.


I don't know either how they could tell so quickly that it wasn't a match but thanks for e-mailing them.

Meyahna
08-24-2007, 08:38 PM
Have you tried finding the father rather than the son? I've tried myself without luck but I'm thinking a prominent Dr might have worked with universities, given lectures or some pages could mention his work. I've been looking at University pages but didn't find any Dr F. in Canada that could be a possibility. I think pride might have prevented this man from looking for his son and also, really a father who disavows his son might just think he no longer wants to talk to him most of all is he was stupborn like his father who disavowed him just for not wanting to study medicine.

LisainWV
08-24-2007, 08:50 PM
The thought has recently occurred to me that maybe this was not his ring (maybe stolen) but he told the guy his name was Jacques to account for the engraving. If so, who knows who he is?

Meyahna
08-24-2007, 08:56 PM
I find the story rather credible, usually I'm rather full of doubts with this kind of stories, like the Princess Doe one, I just don't picture her being a prostitute I think the guy and the woman totally made up the story (this skirt is just so childish, you would have had to beat me with a baseball bat to force to go out with such a skirt when I was her age and still I wasn't so much a hard girl) but this one I just don't see anything making me have doubts about it. If he had stolen it he could have invented any other story, that it was his grand father's or whatever also it surely fit his finger and it's rare that a stolen ring happens to fit. I'm curious about the DNA test, to see if he and the woman were related.

MaryLiz
08-24-2007, 09:58 PM
Have you tried finding the father rather than the son? I've tried myself without luck but I'm thinking a prominent Dr might have worked with universities, given lectures or some pages could mention his work. I've been looking at University pages but didn't find any Dr F. in Canada that could be a possibility. I think pride might have prevented this man from looking for his son and also, really a father who disavows his son might just think he no longer wants to talk to him most of all is he was stupborn like his father who disavowed him just for not wanting to study medicine.

Yes, I did think of looking for the father. I'm not the greatest researcher in the world but I did try Googling physicians from Canada looking mostly in the Quebec area, etc. I tried a number of ways. I didn't check Universities though. That is a good idea. Of course, he probably is retired by now but I thought about looking up hospitals throughout Quebec and looking through the staff. I also firmly believe pride kept him from searching. It sounds like they parted on not very good terms so the father may not have even been speaking to his son. But surely there are other people in his family, his mom or siblings or even friends who would search for him. The same goes for the girl. I just can't believe NO ONE is looking for these two.

MaryLiz
08-24-2007, 10:10 PM
The thought has recently occurred to me that maybe this was not his ring (maybe stolen) but he told the guy his name was Jacques to account for the engraving. If so, who knows who he is?

That thought crossed my mind because of the fact that he tried to pawn it to the KOA guy for some obviously much-needed cash. But with the initial J and his first name being Jacques, it probably was his.

Someone PM'd me about robbery being the motive. I can't believe that because they left their jewelry on them. They probably took their wallets but no doubt that was so they couldn't be identified. I'm sure they didn't have a lot of cash on them because Jacques tried to sell the ring. Another thing that was mentioned was the fact that the guy had the matches on him from the truck stop but they described them on the Doe Network as nonsmokers. I'm sure he had them as a souvenir or something but the thought occurred to me about pot. Maybe they tried to score some dope from someone and the drug deal went horribly wrong?

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 05:16 AM
Could it be that before or after trying to pawn the ring, the UID pawned sthg else and he tried to get it back? I think it probably has to do with money. They looked like a clean couple, I don't see them involved in bad stuff. And a serial killer, I dk, usually when SK kill couples they rape the woman. Taking the man's ring could have been very risky see that it was rather identifiable.

I think for the father even if he's old he could be listed somewhere as an honorary member or on University history pages. I think the best would be that a Canadian newspapers runs a story about them.

rmf
08-25-2007, 05:32 AM
Hi there,

I am a newly regged member but have been lurking here for a long time. I've been studying this case and had a few thoughts about it:

1. I wonder if this young man's father was a DENTIST, rather than an MD?

2. I wonder if this was a drug deal that went bad? Those were the days when people hooked up randomly to party and "score", especially when traveling around. Things could go badly very easy, since people hitchhiking were probably too trusting. (Maybe I've watched "Easy Rider" one too many times!?) Since it sounds like they needed money, it's also possible they could have pulled a minor drug buying scam ("give me some $$ while I go get that (insert drug name here) from my friend and deliver it to you later..." -type of thing) and they scammed the wrong person who came looking for them.

3. Has the FRANCE connection ever been explored by authorities there? I am of French descent both via Quebec and also France. They look very French-featured to me or even possibly South American. The reason I ask about France is because I am a passable French speaker and am going to Paris to see relatives in about two months. If it already hasn't been done, a dossier could be given to the National Police there to compare to missing persons in their databases. If someone would like for me to do that, please PM me and let me know.

4. The possible south american connection could also tie into the drug-deal-gone-bad theory, since cocaine had been coming into vogue in the U.S., a lot being trafficed through Florida (where Jacques Doe's t-shirt may have come from?). It is also possible they came S. Carolina from Florida to do a "delivery" that went bad as well.

All of this conjecture still does not explain why it seems like no one is looking for them- however if they were from France or South American that *might* explain why.

I am sure there are others here who have done way more research than I have, but thought I would share these ideas, especially about my upcoming trip to France. :)

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 06:37 AM
They don't look much French to me, French people rarely have an olive complexion unless they are of foreign descent, Italian, Spanish or Portugese but then they could as much be from these countries. Also their features really aren't French even from South of France, to me they looked a bit Cuban, most of all the guy or of Greek descent possibly.
Btw, women do shave for decades in France, and maybe much more, I am not sure wherever this myth of French women not shaving comes from but that is really just a myth...

MaryLiz
08-25-2007, 10:46 AM
Hi there,

I am a newly regged member but have been lurking here for a long time. I've been studying this case and had a few thoughts about it:

1. I wonder if this young man's father was a DENTIST, rather than an MD?

2. I wonder if this was a drug deal that went bad? Those were the days when people hooked up randomly to party and "score", especially when traveling around. Things could go badly very easy, since people hitchhiking were probably too trusting. (Maybe I've watched "Easy Rider" one too many times!?) Since it sounds like they needed money, it's also possible they could have pulled a minor drug buying scam ("give me some $$ while I go get that (insert drug name here) from my friend and deliver it to you later..." -type of thing) and they scammed the wrong person who came looking for them.

3. Has the FRANCE connection ever been explored by authorities there? I am of French descent both via Quebec and also France. They look very French-featured to me or even possibly South American. The reason I ask about France is because I am a passable French speaker and am going to Paris to see relatives in about two months. If it already hasn't been done, a dossier could be given to the National Police there to compare to missing persons in their databases. If someone would like for me to do that, please PM me and let me know.

4. The possible south american connection could also tie into the drug-deal-gone-bad theory, since cocaine had been coming into vogue in the U.S., a lot being trafficed through Florida (where Jacques Doe's t-shirt may have come from?). It is also possible they came S. Carolina from Florida to do a "delivery" that went bad as well.

All of this conjecture still does not explain why it seems like no one is looking for them- however if they were from France or South American that *might* explain why.

I am sure there are others here who have done way more research than I have, but thought I would share these ideas, especially about my upcoming trip to France. :)


RMF, these are good points. Their nationalities, if they are not French-Canadian, are certainly open to conjecture.

But you're absolutely right about drugs and the 70s. They were much more accessible back then. Many, many more people experimented with drugs (mostly pot) than I could even suspect. I'm not saying EVERYONE did but I'm surprised to find out now how many supposedly strait-laced people I knew back then actually experimented with at least pot. It was definitely the drug du jour of the 70s. Even if they were low on cash it was probably attainable. Or, as you say, they could have been the ones doing the dealing and found themselves in a situation where they couldn't deliver the goods. It certainly is a possibility.

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 10:52 AM
Does anyone know why they say the man's name could be Jock or Jacques, why don't they say Jack or Jake, it looks as much as Jock as Jacques does?

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 11:57 AM
Ok, I've found an answer to my question online.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=429165

I was wondering if you pronounced them the same way in English. Jacques can't be mistaken for Jock in French. So I dk if the man could have been a French speaker if he had said his name, I don't see why the other would have thought it could be Jock he would rather have mixed it with Jack possibly.

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 12:01 PM
Oh lol I was actually wondering if you said Jock Chiroc but they say so on that board.

rmf
08-25-2007, 01:39 PM
They don't look much French to me, French people rarely have an olive complexion unless they are of foreign descent, Italian, Spanish or Portugese but then they could as much be from these countries. Also their features really aren't French even from South of France, to me they looked a bit Cuban, most of all the guy or of Greek descent possibly.
Btw, women do shave for decades in France, and maybe much more, I am not sure wherever this myth of French women not shaving comes from but that is really just a myth...

We must remember this was 1976. I remember traveling to France during this time (as I said, I am of French descent and much of my family is there) and the women I remember seeing in Western Europe were not shaving underarms or legs, particularly in France, Germany and Austria.

Also, skin colours in France really vary, especially the closer you get to Spain. You will see people who look very hispanic in the South, especially in the Dordogne and near the Pyrenees.

Also, is the name Jacques common in Greece and Cuba? (if we are still operating under the assumption that was his name?) It is possible they could be from South America just because many Europeans migrated to Argentina (and other countries) after World War II. Based on the estimated ages of these young people they would have been born after the war ended.

rmf
08-25-2007, 02:47 PM
Ok, I've found an answer to my question online.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=429165

I was wondering if you pronounced them the same way in English. Jacques can't be mistaken for Jock in French. So I dk if the man could have been a French speaker if he had said his name, I don't see why the other would have thought it could be Jock he would rather have mixed it with Jack possibly.


Try this too:

http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php

You can enter the name and listen to it pronounced by various accents and genders.

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 03:08 PM
I'm French. My mother shaved since she was a teen I don't know I've always seen women shaving around me apart from my best-friend once when I was a teen who had put a tank-top with unshaven underarms and I was Uh?! :eek: when I saw that. I don't know her lol. Yurck. It might be people from working class who didn't shave much by then. Still my mother's family was kinda working class.

No the first name Jacques isn't used in Greece or Cuba that was more for their descent or if the story about Jock and the father being a Doctor wasn't true.

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Ty for the link, the "French Juliette" link is the way the first name is pronounced in French.

rmf
08-25-2007, 03:47 PM
Yurck.

That's cute. You type that exactly like my family members do ! :p

pardilia
08-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Ty for the link, the "French Juliette" link is the way the first name is pronounced in French.

If you listen to it in English, it sounds like 'Jock'. I've always heard it pronounced similarly, so I just assumed that if they asked someone who hadn't been exposed to French as part of their education, they would have thought it was "Jock" as opposed to "Jacques". (Also, if the person was asked to spell it, they would have spelled it phonetically, trying to match it with a name or word they already knew.)

I think the "french" part probably comes from the origin of his name, plus if he spoke with any accent...someone along the way might just assume it was french because of his name.

kygal
08-25-2007, 04:47 PM
I have just a few thoughts here, and I don't know just how much of this has been discussed. Please forgive me if this is a recovering of things.

1. The guy LOOKS to be either Mediteranean/Eastern European or Middle Eastern to me. The girl actually does look more either American (or Northern/Western European) or Latina.

2. Does anyone know where the shots were on the bodies? Their clothes have VERY little blood on them (judging by the photos on OP site). Makes me wonder if they could have been killed somewhere else and dumped. (This may have already been established -- read too much at once and now I can't remember.)

3. "Jacques" is a rather distinctive French name. Somehow I'm thinking that he is not ALL of one race/regional background. Could mother or father have been French and the other Mediteranian or Middle Eastern? I have a few friends that are of that lineage and they have many similar features.

Hopefully they will get to that exhumation and do some of the testing that will determine lineage soon. I think a lot of answers could be gained now with the advances in scientific technology.

Meyahna
08-25-2007, 05:11 PM
Yes, I agree with you Kygal about the origins. I was wondering if he could have some Egyptian descent maybe. The girl looks a bit Slavic to me on the contrary. That is strange though, they do have some resemblance to me but not that much for a brother and sister. And maybe they were just both tanned after spending months on the road.

I do think Jacques comes from the French first name. I find Jock to be a rather ridiculous first name, dk makes me think about Joke or Jocks straps (hoping there is no one named Jock around) so maybe his first name rather was Jacques. Then it is possible if he was from Canada he was closer to Quebec, I don't know if there is a geographical repartition of this first name in QC.

I think possibly his father imigrated and was offered a job in Canada as he was a good doctor. That would explain why he disowned his son after working a lot to get a good job maybe he wanted his son to do the same. I dk if it's so common for Canadians to do so. Then if he was from a strict mediterranean country that might explain why he did that. This more in their culture to "disown" people. Hispanic are much more family.

MaryLiz
08-25-2007, 05:34 PM
I have just a few thoughts here, and I don't know just how much of this has been discussed. Please forgive me if this is a recovering of things.

1. The guy LOOKS to be either Mediteranean/Eastern European or Middle Eastern to me. The girl actually does look more either American (or Northern/Western European) or Latina.

2. Does anyone know where the shots were on the bodies? Their clothes have VERY little blood on them (judging by the photos on OP site). Makes me wonder if they could have been killed somewhere else and dumped. (This may have already been established -- read too much at once and now I can't remember.)

3. "Jacques" is a rather distinctive French name. Somehow I'm thinking that he is not ALL of one race/regional background. Could mother or father have been French and the other Mediteranian or Middle Eastern? I have a few friends that are of that lineage and they have many similar features.

Hopefully they will get to that exhumation and do some of the testing that will determine lineage soon. I think a lot of answers could be gained now with the advances in scientific technology.

KYGirl, they were shot in the back, chest and throat at close range. I also wondered about the lack of blood on them from the photos on the Crime Library. We can't really see too much in those photos but I didn't remember seeing any blood.

The did do the exhumation in June...now they're just waiting on DNA results to enter them into worldwide databases.

http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148

pardilia
08-25-2007, 09:36 PM
I do think Jacques comes from the French first name. I find Jock to be a rather ridiculous first name, dk makes me think about Joke or Jocks straps (hoping there is no one named Jock around) so maybe his first name rather was Jacques. Then it is possible if he was from Canada he was closer to Quebec, I don't know if there is a geographical repartition of this first name in QC.

I think possibly his father imigrated and was offered a job in Canada as he was a good doctor. That would explain why he disowned his son after working a lot to get a good job maybe he wanted his son to do the same. I dk if it's so common for Canadians to do so. Then if he was from a strict mediterranean country that might explain why he did that. This more in their culture to "disown" people. Hispanic are much more family.

http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php

If you use the first option, in US English, "Jacques' sounds like 'Z-uh-ock' (to break it down phonetically), very close to 'Jock'. A completely different pronounciation from ANY of the French versions offered at that particular site.

I think the man probably pronounced his name according to the English pronounciation and that is why the (probably not quite educated or 'worldly') campground employee thought his name was "Jock". If he was from Quebec or had a more immediate French background (as in parents fluently spoke the language), he probably would have pronounced his name much differently.

The story about his father disowning him could also be a polished up version of the truth as well. Not many people tell the 'whole truth' about those sorts of affairs to people. It could have even had just been a colorful road story he liked to tell people. Perhaps his father 'disowned' him (stopped paying for school/otherwise cut him off financially) because he was involved in drugs and the angry son took off to hitchhike and travel the US and somehow met the girl during his travels?

kygal
08-26-2007, 08:31 PM
KYGirl, they were shot in the back, chest and throat at close range. I also wondered about the lack of blood on them from the photos on the Crime Library. We can't really see too much in those photos but I didn't remember seeing any blood.

The did do the exhumation in June...now they're just waiting on DNA results to enter them into worldwide databases.

http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148


I was wondering if perhaps they had not been redressed or something. I did a little work on enlarging it and there is LITTLE if ANY blood on the guys shirt. One would think that there'd be blood on it -- especially from the shot in the neck. At close range the spatter would have been something unless the gun was literally right next to them.

Thanks for the DNA update. I think that they could/should do an extensive one if they can.

phenolred
08-27-2007, 10:53 AM
I have also always wondered why there doesnt appear to be any blod on them. I wonder if the photo was retouched to be published in the paper so it wouldnt be gory??? I wish when they exhumed them they could have tested for drugs in their systems...

Angie4b1g
08-27-2007, 12:16 PM
Grr I just know he's that guy from Australia that I found. :P

Richard
08-28-2007, 10:59 AM
I have also always wondered why there doesnt appear to be any blod on them. I wonder if the photo was retouched to be published in the paper so it wouldnt be gory??? I wish when they exhumed them they could have tested for drugs in their systems...

The amount of blood visable would depend in large part on the nature and placement of the wound and on how long the heart continued to pump after the wounds were made.

They were each shot three times. The case summaries do not state what caliber or type of weapon was used, only that there were wounds to the back, chest, and throat.

A large caliber or high power weapon would make an entrance wound the diameter of the bullet, but the exit wound might be much larger. More damage would be done internally, and more blood would be an expected result.

If the bullet was of small caliber and only made small entrance holes, then most bleeding would have been internal. A shot to the lungs would have produced a lot of bleeding which would have exited the body from both the wound entrance/exit and from the mouth and nose.

If a major artery or vein is struck by the bullet, more bleeding results. It is possible, however for a bullet to miss major arteries and organs, and for very little blood to be seen.

I do not know whether or not the bodies were cleaned of blood prior to the specific photos being taken, but it is probable that they were. Photos are taken for two reasons: first to record the position and nature of the wounds, and second to help identify the victims.

rmf
08-28-2007, 04:48 PM
They were each shot three times. The case summaries do not state what caliber or type of weapon was used, only that there were wounds to the back, chest, and throat.

The newspaper article linked below states a .357 was matched to this crime:

In 1977 SLED matched bullets from a .357-caliber Magnum with the serial number filed off to bullets taken from the bodies. Entry wound examinations revealed someone shot them in the back of their heads to finish them off.

http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148

shellbee
09-01-2007, 02:46 PM
Did investigators ever make a determination based on the amount of blood and/or splatter at the scene whether they were shot right there on the road, or shot somewhere else and transported?

MaryLiz
09-01-2007, 05:51 PM
Did investigators ever make a determination based on the amount of blood and/or splatter at the scene whether they were shot right there on the road, or shot somewhere else and transported?

shellbee - I found an old newspaper article that said authorities believed they were shot where they were found.


Bodies Located Monday
Are Still Unidentified
SUMTER (AP)-



Sumter authorities believe an unidentified man and woman whose bodies were found Monday on a dirt road near the Florence County line probably were out of state travelers. "We've sent teletypes everywhere," Kumler County Sheriff I. Byrd Parnell said, adding that they had received inquiries from as far away as Rhode Island. He also said that bulletins describing the two have been sent to other states and missing persons reports are being checked. The two were found about 6:20 a.m. near 1-95 and S.C. 141 by a man on his way to work. The dead man was about six feet tall, weighed 150 to 160 pounds and had brown shoulder-length hair. The woman was about 5-5, weighed about 110 pounds and had reddish brown hair. Both are believed to have been in their early 20s. "This girl was very young and very pretty. He was clean shaven. They were well groomed. They weren't the hippie-type. They looked like the All-American boy and girl travelers," Parnell said, "It looks like they were executed right there."




Sumter County Coroner J. Bennie Raffield said the bodies were about four or five feet apart and that both were lying on their backs. The two are believed to have been shot between midnight Sunday and 1 a.m. Monday, the coroner said. Area residents reported hearing gunshots from the area about that time.

AmandaBrown23
09-01-2007, 08:22 PM
Just curious I havent read the whole discussion, is there any chance the Zodiac did this?

Richard
09-01-2007, 08:36 PM
Just curious I havent read the whole discussion, is there any chance the Zodiac did this?

It does not sound like the killings linked to Zodiac. Also, it is well out of his general operating area - of San Francisco Bay, California.

Zodiac wrote to the newspapers and was quick to claim credit for killings that he did (or wanted to claim). I do not believe that he ever made any such claims in this case.

Some of Zodiac's killings involved him shooting his victims, and there were bullets recovered which could have tied him to other murders, but I do not believe that any others were linked through recovered bullets.

Meyahna
09-01-2007, 08:36 PM
I don't know if you've already seen this article, it's pretty interesting.



Dead end?

By Brian Ray
Staff Writer



Photo by Jim Shine




SUMTER ' It will be 28 years Monday since a young man and woman were found shot to death beside a dirt road in Sumter County.
The couple lie side by side now in plain graves at a country church in Oswego.
Their headstones read simply, 'Female Unknown' and 'Male Unknown.'
No parents have come to pay their respects. No killer has been convicted ' though authorities once had a prime suspect. Their murder remains a mystery that piques minds and touches hearts.
'They were somebody's kids,' says Patricia Riddle of Oswego. 'You just don't want to believe their parents don't care.'
Like others in the community, Riddle is drawn to the graves when she comes into the churchyard at Bethel United Methodist Church. The graves are well kept, and visitors ' she is not sure who or when ' sometimes bring flowers.
The two young people were buried Aug. 14, 1977, but their story begins a year earlier.
The crime
On Aug. 9, 1976, a man living in the sticks between Sumter and Florence heard a car scuttling down a narrow frontage road connecting Interstate 95 to S.C. 341. Someone climbed out. Gunshots echoed in the early morning, then the car raced back onto the highway.
As the sun rose, a truck driver pulled off to rest and found the bodies.
They were riddled with bullet holes, the girl's green eyes still wide with shock, her mouth open as if giving a final cry for help. She was in her late teens; her companion was in his mid-20s.
Sumter County Sheriff I. Byrd Parnell and his deputies arrived minutes later. Crouching over the corpses, they noticed a pair of tire tracks. There was nothing else.
The investigation
After making a plaster cast of the tire tracks and scouring for evidence, Parnell shipped the bodies to the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston for an autopsy, which turned up little more than the obvious.
As weeks passed, the sheriff made phone calls and wrote letters to law enforcement agencies from Florida to New Mexico in an effort to identify the bodies. Nothing turned up.
A forensic dentist in Spartanburg charted the young man's mouth and the American Dental Association published his findings, hoping a dentist somewhere would recognize the work. The dead man had undergone extensive dental work, including fillings, root canals and crowns. No dentist ever came forward.
A funeral home displayed the bodies for a year in airtight, see-through caskets.
Relatives of missing persons traveled from as far away as New Jersey, but all left with unanswered prayers.
After a year, the bodies had decayed and hardly seemed human any longer. So the young man and woman were laid to rest at the Methodist Church in Oswego.
More than 100 people attended the ceremony.
Sole suspect
About four months after the murders, police in the Darlington County town of Latta arrested Lonnie George Henry for drunk driving. Under the seat of his car they found a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson with the serial number filed off.
Police sent the gun to the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division's forensic lab for tests and later concluded that Henry's revolver had killed the mystery couple. Bullets taken from the bodies matched with the weapon.
When officers asked Henry point blank if he was the killer, his polygraph said he was telling the truth. No, he hadn't pulled the trigger. But several other lie detector tests implied he was lying about something, at least, maybe covering up for somebody. Investigators wondered if someone had stolen his gun and whether a relative or friend of Henry's had killed the couple in Sumter.
But case files say Henry did lie about how he'd obtained the gun, first telling officers that he'd bought it from a truck driver. Days after the purchase, Henry told investigators, he discovered the serial number had been filed off. By then, it was too late to return the item for a refund.
SLED recovered the serial number and investigators tracked the gun from its manufacturer to Henry's brother, who said he gave it to Henry as a Christmas present four or five years earlier.
The gun had been bought, stolen and resold several times before falling into the hands of Henry's brother. But he said the serial number was still there on Christmas Eve.
When confronted with the new information, Henry confessed to filing the serial numbers off himself.
It remains unclear why Henry lied if he was innocent. And it also remains unclear if he really was. Case files say Henry was a recovering alcoholic and had also gotten in trouble with the law for a slew of minor offenses.
At the time, his son had recently drowned in the Pee Dee River. He'd also accidentally killed one of his co-workers, by backing a dump truck over him.
Investigative psychologists even wondered if he'd killed the Sumter couple and simply couldn't remember doing it.

Meyahna
09-01-2007, 08:38 PM
But despite his incriminating profile, Henry had an alibi. 'I can prove where I was at on the dates that you said this happened,' Henry told investigators. He said he was at a hospital in Monroe, N.C., where his wife was staying. 'I suppose you will take my word.'
'Mr. Henry,' replied one of the officers, according to the files. 'Right now I don't believe I would take your word for anything.'
In an effort to corroborate his alibi, cops timed the drive from the hospital to the crime scene and concluded there was no way Henry could have raced back in time to see his wife. Even with knowledge of his mental health and lying twice about the gun, they set him free.
Now dead, Henry will never have the chance to erase the suspicion or to confess.
Passing through
Evidence says the young couple weren't from South Carolina.
'If they were from around here we would have found them by now,' says Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore. In 1976, she was deputy coroner and also worked for the local paper, The Sumter Daily Item.
Moore persuaded 'Unsolved Mysteries' and Court TV to run specials on the case, but still no one came forward. For the past year she's been working with a cold case investigator in Virginia to sift through evidence for new leads.
She hasn't given up yet. 'Somewhere out there they've got family still looking for them,' she says, 'and hitting all the wrong places.'
But with their olive skin and ethnically ambiguous faces, the couple could have come from anywhere. 'We've made contact with agencies in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, even in the Mediterranean,' Moore says.
Sgt. Ray Mackassey, a forensics officer in charge of the evidence in the case, says that while the case came many years before his time, he has heard the couple may have been Canadian.

Meet Jacque
Months after the homicide, an employee of KOA campgrounds near Santee, S.C., called authorities, believing he had earlier made friends with the dead man, who went by the name 'Jock,' according to documents in the case file.
Jock, or more likely, Jacque, stayed a few days at the campgrounds with his young female companion, then left for Florida. He and his girlfriend stopped at the campgrounds again on their way back.
The two men became friends. While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine. He was taking a vacation of sorts, traveling the country aimlessly.
Before leaving, he tried to pawn an expensive ring to the employee, who later told authorities that the ring had looked a lot like the one found on the mystery man.
Inside his pocket was a book of Grants Truck Stop matches, which could only be found in Idaho, New Mexico and Nebraska. Authorities think Jacque passed through these places on his travels.
Parnell and his deputies seem to have made some effort to follow the Canadian trail. They wrote to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which in turn published fingerprints and sketches in its trade magazine. Nothing ever turned up.
Priceless items
The dead man's ring, made of 14k gold, had the letters 'JPF' engraved on the inside.
Wolfgang Stihl, the Virginia cold case investigator who's been working with the county coroner, speculates family members gave him the ring, along with the Bulova Accutron watch he was also wearing.
Stihl has determined by markings on the watch that Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed.
But Stihl is sure about one thing. 'That watch was bought the year it was made.'
It could have been a high school graduation present, based on the victim's estimated age, 26 or 27. 'It was a popular item back in those days,' Stihl said.
The dead man was also wearing a Coors Light of America T-shirt, the same one sold at a car race held in Florida. More evidence to support the KOA lead.
The girl was also wearing expensive rings that look Mexican in style.
Stihl says the rings were probably handmade, and he hopes to use symbols on the inside of the bands to identify the artist and perhaps identify places where the girl bought the jewelry.
Latest leads
There are a few more unexplored avenues.
One involves a plaster cast or photographs of the tire tracks found at the murder scene, which Stihl says he can use to identify the getaway car.
'Every car has a different wheel-base area,' he says. That and tire tread marks could help him determine the year and make of the vehicle.
Stihl says there are many things about the case that bother him. He doesn't understand why the killer would have stolen cars, wallets or purses, but left watches and jewelry. The girl wasn't raped ' her autopsy didn't turn up a trace of sexual assault.
According to an examination of entry wounds, the murderer shot both victims in the back of the head to finish them off. 'These were executions,' he says, adding the killer may have been a traveling companion. That would explain why the jewelry wasn't stolen. The killer cared only about erasing their identities.
There's one last thing Stihl finds startling. 'They were completely clean. No dirt under their fingernails, none in their hair.'
They weren't smokers and they weren't drinkers. The man in particular was tall and athletic looking, possibly an aficionado of contact sports, judging by the suggestive scars on the back of his shoulder. Overall, the couple likely came from the upper crust of society.
Forever unsolved?
Stihl says he's confident he can identify the couple, though their killer may never be revealed. 'I wish I'd been there,' he says, adding that it would have been easier to work the case before most of the evidence dried up.
The ugly truth is most local law enforcement agencies have never possessed the resources or manpower to crack bizarre cases, though the small town of Sumter has seen its fair share of those, being home to serial killer Donald 'Pee Wee' Gaskins Jr. There are more than 20 unsolved cases in Sumter County.
These two killings are among the oldest.
Sumter Sheriff Tommy Mims wants to see this particular case solved as much as anyone, but he knows the odds of identifying the victims are evaporating.
'This case has been hashed up one way and down the other,' he says.
The mystery couple's parents, aunts and uncles may lie in their own graves by now.
But others refuse to let go. 'I've worked on this for almost 20 years,' Moore says. She's vowed not to give up until her career is over. But if she's re-elected this year, it will be her last term as coroner.
That's unimportant, she says.
'Whoever takes my place will keep working on it.'

SeriouslySearching
09-03-2007, 04:20 AM
Very interesting case.

My take on it is that he is Canadian and his name could have been John. (Thomas John “Jock” Murray, MD (hereafter, TJM): I grew up in the town of Pictou, Nova Scotia, Canada, a small (population 4000), very Scottish community, which explains why I was never called by my official names of Thomas or John. I was always called the Scottish “Jock,” which is a nickname for John, just like Jack is the English nickname for John. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1214566)

I think she could be from just about anywhere, but not sure where. It would make sense she came with him from Canada tho. Young couple running off to discover the world together scenario. However, it doesn't mean she wasn't just trekking thru Canada when he met her. The Summer Olympics were held in Montreal, Quebec, Canada on July 17th.

The watch probably was a graduation present. It was the going thing to give for exactly that occasion in the 70s. (All the kids in our family got nice watches for graduation then.) The Linde Star rings for males were very popular during this time, too. I believe those are his initials.

Her jewelry could have been purchased in a number of places, including Oklahoma. (My grandmother had several onyx rings with this same shape and silver done similarly.) I agree they were Native American rings. The fact they still were wearing the jewelry doesn't automatically exclude this from being a robbery. Perhaps the perp wanted the car and cash only. They did not want to mess with the jewelry/pawn shops/sale of such.

Not wearing underwear was no big deal back in the 70s. Going commando was really pretty common. As far as her not shaving, there were a few of those around, too. (I wasn't one of either of those groups!) If they were staying at campgrounds...the matches were probably for campfires. (Btw, Coors was the most popular beer in Oklahoma in the 70s...along with the logo Tshirts...not to mention, miniskirts and halter tops!)

My theory is they were driving around the country and staying in their car. It sounds like they were killed at the scene which would make me curious as to where they had been hanging out prior to the shooting. Was there a concert, a race, or other event going on nearby that evening? They might have befriended and given a ride to one or more from there. They could have been killed for the vehicle. I would think it was a nice vehicle.

I believe his father was a Doctor, as he told the KOA guy. I also buy he had been "disowned" and this is the reason no one was "missing" him. It sounds like he left after a huge fight with the father and they didn't expect him to return.

Here is another story of a murder about the same time frame, age of victim, two shots, left by the side of the highway in CA. Probably no connection, but we can check it out:

Dennis Scott Cole
Murdered: October 1976-April 1977 Motorists traveling Highway 66 outside Ashland in April 1977 spotted skeletal remains near the Greensprings Summit. The body was later determined to be that of Cole, who was 22 when he left his parents’ home in Santa Clara, Calif., in October 1976. Police presume he was en route back to his home off Highway 66. An autopsy determined he’d been shot twice. No suspects were ever identified. http://archive.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0321/local/stories/02local.htm

kittykat1
09-03-2007, 09:36 AM
Priceless items
The dead man's ring, made of 14k gold, had the letters 'JPF' engraved on the inside.


If I am not mistaken, Jean Paul and Jean Pierre are common French names. This story is fascinating and I think it will be solved.

froggierintexas
09-04-2007, 06:54 PM
This was the closet doctor name that the Canadian Medical Association could find. Do what you will with the info. I am not about to call this doctor and say Hi you don't know me but, blah blah blah. I will leave that up to someone more capable.



Dr. Phillip Jacques Fourie
269 Bradbrooke Drive
Yorkton SK S3N 3L3
Phone (306) 783-4999

MaryLiz
09-04-2007, 08:32 PM
This was the closet doctor name that the Canadian Medical Association could find. Do what you will with the info. I am not about to call this doctor and say Hi you don't know me but, blah blah blah. I will leave that up to someone more capable.



Dr. Phillip Jacques Fourie
269 Bradbrooke Drive
Yorkton SK S3N 3L3
Phone (306) 783-4999

Good work froggier, reverse the first and middle name and you have the initials on John Doe's ring - JPF! I certainly am not capable of making the phone call either! But it's another starting point to search from. Thanks!

froggierintexas
09-04-2007, 08:36 PM
I meant closest not closet
I hope he's not a closet doctor.

yw

Angie4b1g
09-04-2007, 09:00 PM
I meant closest not closet
I hope he's not a closet doctor.

yw

That made me actually laugh out loud.

rmf
09-05-2007, 02:04 AM
This was the closet doctor name that the Canadian Medical Association could find.

Great minds think alike. I've spent the last couple days perusing the site for the Royal College of Physicians in Canada- a family member from Quebec suggested this when I mentioned this case to her.

Below are matches from all the provinces of physicians with a surname beginning with "F" who were admitted to the Royal College at or around the timeframe/age-range that a parent of "Jacques" might have been. (I used 1965 and earlier as a "range")

I don't know how many of these people are still even alive, but there are a few in Quebec that could be possibilities.


http://royalcollege.ca/index_e.php

Feore, Thomas Dermot Ryan
FRCPC (Nov. 27, 1964)
Central Newfoundland Regional
Health Centre
50 Union St
Grand Falls-Windsor, NL A2A 2E1 Diagnostic Radiology (Nov. 15, 1960)

Farber, Robert
FRCPC (Dec. 11, 1953)
Suite 206
2401 Yonge St
Toronto, ON M4P 3H1 Pediatrics (Dec. 11, 1953)

Farley, Robert Orme
FRCSC (Dec. 28, 1959)
St Thomas, ON General Surgery (Dec. 28, 1959)

Feinman, Saya Victor
FRCPC (Nov. 29, 1962)
Toronto, ON Internal Medicine (Nov. 19, 1956)

Fekete, John Francis
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Mississauga, ON General Pathology (Nov. 13, 1961)

Fisher, Murray M.
FRCPC (Nov. 30, 1965)
Rm 618
Upper Canada Lower Bowel
Clinic
170 St George St
Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 Internal Medicine (Nov. 30, 1965)

Florence, Ralph
FRCPC (Jun. 9, 1972)
Suite 409
Balmoral Medical Arts
1366 Yonge St
Toronto, ON M4T 3A7 Dermatology (Nov. 29, 1960)

Flowers, Raymond William
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Clinton, ON Internal Medicine (Nov. 10, 1964)

Forstner, Gordon G.
FRCPC (Nov. 30, 1965)
Rm 402
Clarke Site
Centre for Addiction &
Mental Health
250 College St
Toronto, ON M5T 1R8 Internal Medicine (Nov. 30, 1965)

Fox, Gordon Stanley
FRCPC (Dec. 1, 1965)
Rm 1514
Mount Sinai Hospital
600 University Ave
Toronto, ON M5G 1X5 Anesthesia (Dec. 1, 1965)

Fretz, Norman Anthony
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Guelph, ON Psychiatry (Nov. 9, 1964)

Forsey, Robert Roy P. FRCPC
(Nov. 27, 1948)
Montréal, QC Dermatology (Dec. 1, 1947)

Fouron, Jean Claude
FRCPC (Nov. 25, 1963)
dép de pédiatrie
Hôpital Ste-Justine
3175 ch Côte-Sainte-Catherine
Montréal, QC H3T 1C5 Pediatrics (Nov. 25, 1963)

Fugère, Pierre
FRCSC (Nov. 29, 1963)
suite 100
235 boul René-Lévesque e
Montréal, QC H2X 1N8 Obstetrics and Gynecology (Nov. 29, 1963)

Fraser, Murray Macdonell
FRCSC (Dec. 11, 1953)
Regina, SK General Surgery (Dec. 11, 1953)
Pediatric General Surgery (Dec. 1, 1978)

rmf
09-05-2007, 02:11 AM
Fugère, Pierre
FRCSC (Nov. 29, 1963)
suite 100
235 boul René-Lévesque e
Montréal, QC H2X 1N8 Obstetrics and Gynecology (Nov. 29, 1963)



http://www.amlfc.org/Articles/2001_03_02.html

Here's his webpage with photo.

pardilia
09-05-2007, 02:37 AM
I found this webpage:

http://www.im-a-fugere.com/id27.htm

Perhaps she could be contacted to see if she has a missing person?

rmf
09-05-2007, 02:58 AM
I am wondering if a physician who was admitted to the Royal College in the 60's would be too YOUNG to be "Jacques" father?

If indeed his father was a "prominent doctor" I would imagine he'd be a member of that organization?

There is one doctor in Quebec that was admitted in the late 40's. That almost seems like a better match, age-wise... thoughts, everyone?

rmf
09-05-2007, 03:14 AM
Forsey, Robert Roy P. FRCPC
(Nov. 27, 1948)
Montréal, QC Dermatology (Dec. 1, 1947)

This guy above is definitely what I'd call "prominent" and he's the right age. He's all over the internet. Here's an older photo of him:

http://www.dermatology.ca/cda_organisation/Archives/presidents/past_presidents_1954_67.html

Gina_M
09-05-2007, 06:10 AM
A forensic dentist in Spartanburg charted the young man's mouth and the American Dental Association published his findings, hoping a dentist somewhere would recognize the work. The dead man had undergone extensive dental work, including fillings, root canals and crowns. No dentist ever came forward.

Someone mentioned earlier that maybe the father is a dentist and not a medical doctor. This may be off the wall, but...maybe the father is the one who did his dental work! That would explain his not coming forward, if he had truly disowned his son.

Gina_M
09-05-2007, 07:07 AM
The High-Point Enterprise
High Point, NC
August 13, 1976

Two Bodies Still Not Identified

Sumter, SC (AP) - They were both young - late teens to early 20s. Both were slender. He was about six feet tall and weighed between 150 and 160 pounds and she was about 5'5" and weighed about 100 pounds.

He had shoulder length brown hair and brown eyes and she had medium length brown hair and bluish-gray eyes.

He was wearing faded blue jeans, a red T-shirt with "Coors" on the front and "Camel GT Challenge Sebring '75" on the back, and a pair of brown strap sandals. She wore cut-off blue jeans, a pink halter top, a white blouse, and a pair of wedge sandals with hot pink and purple straps.

He had an appendectomy scar, but she had no scars on her body.

He wore a Bulova Accutron watch with a brown Twist-OFlex band and a 14-carat gold ring with a gray linde star stone, a worn florentine finish and the initials J P F engraved on the inside.

She was wearing three rings, all sterling silver, believed to be either Mexican or Indian costume jewelry. One ring was jade with a black setting, one was a feather ring with a jade insert, and the third had a red, white and blue setting.

Their bodies were found Monday morning by a man on his way to work.

Gina_M
09-05-2007, 07:11 AM
(cont'd...)

That much is known.

What is unknown is who the two young people were and how they ended up dead of multiple gunshot wounds beside a dirt road in the eastern end of Sumter County.

Investigators know how they died - they were both shot several times.

Where they died is also known - on a dirt road known as Locklair Road, between I-95 and S.C. 341, about 25 miles east of Sumter.

But until identification of the two bodies is made, the search for their killers has been stalled.

Gina_M
09-05-2007, 07:34 AM
The High Point Enterprise
High Point, NC
August 23, 1976

Two bodies remain unidentified

Sumter, SC (AP) - "We need to have these bodies identified so we can get on with cracking this case," says Sumter County Sheriff I. Bird Parnell.

Parnell is still waiting for some word as to the identities of the couple found shot to death Aug. 9 near the Lynches River in Sumter County.

...

Parnell said two of his deputies drove to Brunswick, Ga., early last week after being told by a Varnville, S.C. man that he thought he dated the girl last year. The man went to Georgia with the deputies, but the girl's mother said she was not the same person.

"That put us right back where we started," said Sgt. Hugh A. Mathis, one of the officers.

Autopsy reports show both persons died from gunshot wounds and that the shots were fired from only a few feet away.

The girl was described as very pretty. She had brown hair, with a slightly reddish tint...

MaryLiz
09-05-2007, 07:44 AM
This guy above is definitely what I'd call "prominent" and he's the right age. He's all over the internet. Here's an older photo of him:

http://www.dermatology.ca/cda_organisation/Archives/presidents/past_presidents_1954_67.html

Dr. Forsey would be about the right age. In the Crime Library article it said John Doe was 18-22, possibly older, which would mean he was probably born sometime in the 1950s. I think there is a resemblance between John Doe and Dr. Forsey, especially the eyebrows. Below is the link to the Crime Library story on the last page where they show a photograph of each victim's face. John Doe looked like he had sort of thick eyebrows and so does Dr. Forsey. I can definitely see a resemblance.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6.html

phenolred
09-05-2007, 07:55 AM
Yes I think the eyebrows seem to match, Dr Forsey looks mean to me......I would be scared to contact him LOL....Its worth a shot. Now maybe we need to look up some Dentist from that area with that last name F...I don't put too much stock in eyecolor for the girl in one article they are blue/gray and in another they are green. But my eyes are like that. Sometimes they look really green and sometimes they look gray.....But I had a lady tell me one time that has known me my entire life, that she swore I had brown eyes.....Because my pupils are pretty large....

Gina_M
09-05-2007, 07:59 AM
The High Point Enterprise
High Point, NC
September 19, 1976

The young man had exceptional dental work. Sumter dentists who examined his body said he was in the process of having a complete mouth restoration, with several thousands of dollars worth of root canal caps, tooth caps and bridge work. They say the job was about half-finished.

...

a mechanic in Nebraska said he thought the man was someone who had had work done on a vehicle with either Washington or Oregon plates. But that lead has so far failed to produce any other information.

phenolred
09-05-2007, 08:39 AM
It would be great if they could get this story on Canandian TV....I have read about dental work on other does with the indication it appeared to be done in a foreign country, because they use different technices than we use here in the US. So, I am thinking he is either from the US or Canada. I dont think the girl looks like his sister, girfriend maybe. I cant wait for the DNA. With them being so young, you would think they would have friends that wondered what happend to them and are looking for them, even if their familys arent they probably have friends that are looking for them. Wow I cant believe they kept them in a see thru coffins for almost a year I wonder if there are pics of that, and what were they dressed in?

phenolred
09-05-2007, 08:41 AM
can somebody do a side by side of Dr Forsey and the John DOE?

MaryLiz
09-05-2007, 09:06 AM
Yes I think the eyebrows seem to match, Dr Forsey looks mean to me......I would be scared to contact him LOL....Its worth a shot. Now maybe we need to look up some Dentist from that area with that last name F...I don't put too much stock in eyecolor for the girl in one article they are blue/gray and in another they are green. But my eyes are like that. Sometimes they look really green and sometimes they look gray.....But I had a lady tell me one time that has known me my entire life, that she swore I had brown eyes.....Because my pupils are pretty large....

LOL! I thought the same thing, that he looked mean. I can literally see him disowning his son!!!

phenolred
09-05-2007, 09:48 AM
Is anyone good with geneology could you look up the ansecestory of Dr Forsey and see if he had a son ? Or siblings

MaryLiz
09-05-2007, 11:01 AM
Is anyone good with geneology could you look up the ansecestory of Dr Forsey and see if he had a son ? Or siblings

I'm not that great at it, but I did look up at ancestry.ca for Canadian ancestry and found a Dr. Roy Forsey and it only said the location was Quebec. You have to have a membership to find out more! But you can sign up for a 14 day free membership. It had him listed up to 2002 in the phone directory.

MaryLiz
09-05-2007, 11:14 AM
can somebody do a side by side of Dr Forsey and the John DOE?

http://www.dermatology.ca/cda_organisation/history/presidents/small-presidents/1959Roy-P-Forsey.jpghttp://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-2-John-Doe-Sketch-Photo.jpg

I couldn't do it without getting the drawing in there too.

phenolred
09-05-2007, 12:05 PM
Thanks for the side by side omg they really do look related next to each other !!!

I found some pics of the pair that i havent seen before it really shows the moles on the girls face well. and here is a link to where I found the picsc too http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved.htm

I really feel like a local did the murder, since the murder weapon was found on a local, but WHY? And where did their car go? a lake maybe or sold or sold in parts by a "chop Shop"

http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMale.jpghttp://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMaleFemale.jpg

phenolred
09-05-2007, 01:33 PM
I found somemone named forsey with a missing son from Canada

Here is what was posted and a link to look at it yourself

July 30/07 From: Ken Forsey Location: British Columbia Canada
Comment: "This is a great site. My son has been missing for a long time now...(sic) it is very frustrating. Well, this is an awesome sight"
http://www.missingcanadians.ca/guestbook.html

phenolred
09-05-2007, 01:57 PM
I found some more doctors names in Canada there are alot of Jacques-Phillppe's and Jean Pierre's Jean-Paul's and Jacques- pierre some last names are Faucher, Farmer Ferland Forget Ferron & Fontaine...

Then this Idea came to mind. We could make a myspace page for them and them add them to schools in Canada and say does anyone recoginze us???? Put them as alumni to the schools around the date the probably would have went to high school, we could also so something like that on classmates.com.....

Does anyone want to voulenteer to call DR Evil aka Forsey LOL sorry I take that back,

SeriouslySearching
09-05-2007, 04:38 PM
Did anyone seem to notice the post I did on the name, "JOCK"? It appears there is such a nickname and it explained the reason for it. It is used in Pictou, Nova Scotia, Canada in the Scottish community as a nickname for John. I found this to be quite compelling since one of the only clues was from the KOA worker who stated the victim claimed his name was, "Jock".

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1214566

I don't think we should overlook this.

Rhett
09-05-2007, 05:10 PM
Maybe the last name began with the "P". I know on jewelry I had in the 1970's the last initial went in the middle. Just a thought. Rhett.

Marie
09-05-2007, 05:48 PM
Maybe the last name began with the "P". I know on jewelry I had in the 1970's the last initial went in the middle. Just a thought. Rhett.

Hi Rhett, I wish we could view a pic of the initials on the ring. Engravings are often still done that way - with the Last name initial in the center, and that initial is usually larger than the other two outside ones.

Marie
09-05-2007, 05:51 PM
Did anyone seem to notice the post I did on the name, "JOCK"? It appears there is such a nickname and it explained the reason for it. It is used in Pictou, Nova Scotia, Canada in the Scottish community as a nickname for John. I found this to be quite compelling since one of the only clues was from the KOA worker who stated the victim claimed his name was, "Jock".

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1214566

I don't think we should overlook this.

:blowkiss:
I noticed your post and appreciate learning about the name Jock. I'm sorry I didn't reply to you. I have searched for anyone nicknamed Jock and the name John, but so far no luck. I think you made a good suggestion.

John-- Jack, Jock, Johnny, Eon, Ian, occasionally a nickname for Jonathan.

SeriouslySearching
09-05-2007, 06:05 PM
Thanks, Marie! This case might have stalled out long ago because they were searching for a Jacques instead of a John.

Rhett, I am with Marie on this one...I wish we could see how it was engraved into the ring. Good thinking! LE sometimes can overlook such details.

MaryLiz
09-05-2007, 06:16 PM
Did anyone seem to notice the post I did on the name, "JOCK"? It appears there is such a nickname and it explained the reason for it. It is used in Pictou, Nova Scotia, Canada in the Scottish community as a nickname for John. I found this to be quite compelling since one of the only clues was from the KOA worker who stated the victim claimed his name was, "Jock".

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1214566

I don't think we should overlook this.

I've been searching that way too, with Jock along with Jacques and John and other ways. It was a good tip, one which I was unaware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

Marie
09-05-2007, 06:51 PM
Has anyone seen this website (http://meyahna.tripod.com/pg5.html)? Lots of info and different sketch's that I don't remember seeing before. They both have a different look.

And doesn't it seem strange that he had extensive dental work, but also had missing teeth on both top and bottom? I'm confused as to whether his missing teeth were covered with bridges or not?

Marie
09-05-2007, 10:19 PM
http://missingme.2007.angelfire.com/sc1.jpg

http://meyahna.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/janedoe.jpg http://meyahna.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/johndoe.jpg

http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMaleFemale.jpg http://www.sumtercountysc.org/sheriff/unsolved/images/imgJohnAndJaneDoeMale.jpg

http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192618_cold%20case%20female%20victim.gif http://www.wltx.com/assetpool/images/07612192531_cold%20case%20male%20victim.gif

http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/189UFSC1.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/198UMSC4.jpg


I just wanted to put all the pics in one place for reference.

rmf
09-05-2007, 10:19 PM
Hi Again All,

I've gone through the Royal College's directory again and am listing all the "P" surnames below as well, per the other suggestion, which made a good point about the engraving on the ring. It's certainly worth a search!

I also think it's important to take this MD theory with a grain of salt though, because "Jacques" supposedly told one person his father was a doctor in Canada... and who knows how accurate that person's recollection was at the time or whether "Jacques" was telling the truth? Also it is entirely possible that *if* this guy's father was a doctor, he could be deceased now. There are sooo many variables. This list of "P" surnames is long and I haven't tried to Google any of them for photos or family info, so anyone reading this, have at it... might be interesting to see what turns up.

I also think the dentist theory is a possiblity- I tried searching for dentists the same way I did for MDs but it is more difficult. The associations of dentists in Canada are not as easy to search and you need a name to do it.

Also, about his ring: Linde star rings of that type were very common in the late 60's and 70's in North America. I have a good friend in the vintage jewelry biz in Florida and I asked her about the ring (and directed her to the photo online) and she gave me this info: 14kt gold was used almost exclusively in North America at the time "Jacques" died. According to my friend, 18kt was mostly used abroad, so wherever he got the ring, it was likely in America or Canada.

Regarding the elderly Dr Forsey: if you search the Canada white pages you'll see that he's listed with an address in suburban Montreal. I think a phone call would not be appropriate, but maybe a letter would, outlining the case? Since this man is elderly (and seems to have done alot of writing in the past per what I've seen in internet searches on him) a letter might be more appropriate? If he is not related to "Jacques" he may still be well connected enough in the medical community in Canada to "put the word out". It certainly could not hurt? Of course a check with the authorities investigating this case should be done first though, I would think, to make sure this would be appropriate and to check to find out if they haven't already tried the Canadian doctor search.

I think that the DNA analysis will be very interesting. I just hope it does not create more questions about this case than answers.

Pearce, Keith Ian
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Cochrane, AB Psychiatry (Nov. 22, 1961)

Pineo, Graham F.
FRCPC (Nov. 17, 1966)
Suite 601 South Tower
Thrombosis Research Unit
Foothills Hospital
1403 29th St NW
Calgary, AB T2N 2T9 Internal Medicine (Nov. 17, 1966)

Pace-Floridia, Albert P.
FRCPC (Dec. 2, 1965)
Surrey, BC Anesthesia (Dec. 2, 1965)

Price, John
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Fredericton, NB Anesthesia (Nov. 14, 1961)

Pakes, Eddy Hymie
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Suite 242
North York Medical Arts
Building
1333 Sheppard Ave E
North York, ON M2J 1V1 Psychiatry (Nov. 28, 1966)

Patt, Norman Leon
FRCPC (Nov. 30, 1963)
Whitby, ON Diagnostic Radiology (Nov. 14, 1962)

Peacock, John Joseph M.
FRCPC (Mar. 16, 1966)
Toronto, ON Neurology (Mar. 16, 1966)

Pearson, Frederick Griffith
FRCSC (Dec. 16, 1958)
RR 1
Mansfield, ON L0N 1M0 General Surgery (Dec. 16, 1958)

Petkovich, Narcis Joseph
FRCPC (Nov. 16, 1967)
Mississauga, ON Internal Medicine (Dec. 5, 1966)

Pflug, Michael
FRCPC (Dec. 4, 1965)
Suite 7
3545 Kingston Rd
Toronto, ON M1M 1R6 Internal Medicine (Dec. 4, 1965)

Philips, Paris John
FRCSC (Jun. 9, 1972)
5 Portree Cres
Thornhill, ON L3T 3G1 Urology (Nov. 15, 1965)

Phillips, Melville James
FRCPC (Jan. 1, 1962)
Dept of Pathology
The Hospital for Sick Children
555 University Ave
Toronto, ON M5G 1X8 General Pathology (Nov. 14, 1961)

Podedworny, Walter Michael
FRCSC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Hamilton, ON Ophthalmology (Nov. 23, 1964)

Pollock, Piney
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Suite 402
McLeod Medical Centre
340 McLeod St
Ottawa, ON K2P 1A4 Internal Medicine (Nov. 20, 1956)

Prince, William Ross
FRCSC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Suite 11
Oakville Medical Arts Building
358 Reynolds St
Oakville, ON L6J 3L9 Urology (Nov. 15, 1965)

Paulin, Claude
FRCPC (Jun. 9, 1972)
suite 2
425 rue Sherbrooke e
Montréal, QC H2L 1J9 Internal Medicine (Jan. 1, 1955)

Pearl, Gerald Joshua
FRCSC (Mar. 15, 1966)
suite 1003
1414 rue Drummond
Montréal, QC H3G 1W1 General Surgery (Mar. 15, 1966)

Pinard, Roger Lucien
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Saint-Jérôme, QC Diagnostic Radiology (Nov. 27, 1954)
Therapeutic Radiology (Nov. 27, 1954)

Pinter, Emery Julius
FRCPC (Jun. 9, 1972)
4342 Sherbrooke St W
Westmount, QC H3Z 1E3 Internal Medicine (Nov. 12, 1963)

Plante, J. Gilles C.
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
dép de psychiatrie de
l'enfance & de l'adolescence
Hôpital Notre-Dame
CHUM
1560 rue Sherbrooke e
Montréal, QC H2L 4M1 Psychiatry (Nov. 29, 1965)

Pless, Ivan Barry
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
Westmount, QC Pediatrics (Nov. 13, 1963)

Plourde, Sabin
FRCSC (Aug. 24, 2007)
Québec, QC General Surgery (Dec. 28, 1959)

Poisson, Roger Celestin
FRCSC (Nov. 28, 1962)
Baie-d'Urfé, QC General Surgery (Nov. 29, 1961)

Pomerantz, Harold Zvy
FRCPC (Jun. 9, 1972)
Mont-Royal, QC Internal Medicine (Dec. 20, 1952)

Proulx, Pierre Yvon
FRCPC (Sep. 23, 1972)
147 rue Notre-Dame e
Victoriaville, QC G6P 3Z8 Internal Medicine (Nov. 12, 1964)

froggierintexas
09-06-2007, 01:38 AM
Okay, here's my offer. If any doctors look like they might be related and they now have a practice anywhere between Corpus Christi and Houston, I volunteer to deliver a hand-written letter to the receptionist of the doctor personally. Someone else has to write the letter. I go again in 4 weeks.

phenolred
09-06-2007, 08:57 AM
One thing bothers me about the crime scene photos. It looks like the girl just layed down on her back. It makes me think their were more than one person involved with the murders. Because if they were forced out of the car and the killer started shooting one of them it seems like the other one would attempt to run or get away but it looks like they just waited their turn.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/1-2-John-&-Jane-Doe-crime-s.jpg

phenolred
09-06-2007, 09:21 AM
The LE there seem to be open to the internet....


If you have any information about this case, call Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore at her office (803) 436.2111 or on her beeper (803)778.3613


Authorities ponder if today's technology might have helped solve the crime.
Some officials wonder whether the case would have been solved by now if today's advanced technology had been available 28 years ago.
''I feel like we used every source then and throughout the years at our disposal to get the information out,'' Mims said. "That would be a big question mark: If today's technology would have advanced the identification process.''

"I feel like it would have,''

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 10:25 AM
Hi Rhett, I wish we could view a pic of the initials on the ring. Engravings are often still done that way - with the Last name initial in the center, and that initial is usually larger than the other two outside ones.

Marie came up with the idea of seeing a photograph of the ring after Rhett mentioned about the initials. I PMd Marie and asked her if she would mind if I e-mailed the Sumter County Sheriff to see if there was any way we could get a photo of the ring. Having never contacted LE before about a case, I should have mentioned why we wanted to see the photograph to ask if the initial P was larger than the others, but I didn't think of it then. They responded right away and forwarded my e-mail to the Investigative Unit. I got a response which I posted below. I did e-mail Sgt. Mackessy back to ask if he could still tell if the P was larger. I haven't heard back yet, but like I said I should have told them in my initial e-mail why we wanted to see the photograph. Anyway, they were very helpful and prompt and I don't want to bother them too much. So if he writes back about the size of the initials, I'll post his response.

Mrs. Miller
Thank you for your interest in this case. In answer to your question about the initials “JPF” on the inside of the ring worn by the unknown male. An attempt was made to photograph the initials without success. The initials are in such a condition to prevent photography. In regards to the teeth. We have had a Forensic Dentist examine the teeth and he is in the process of compiling a dental record on both the male and the female. Currently the teeth and the femur bones have been sent to the FBI Lab in Texas to extract DNA and compare the DNA to the worldwide data bases. I hope I have adequately answered your questions. Thank you again for your interest and your help.

Sgt Ray Mackessy
Crime Scene Unit Supervisor
Sumter County Sheriff’s Office
Sumter, SC

phenolred
09-06-2007, 11:02 AM
Marie came up with the idea of seeing a photograph of the ring after Rhett mentioned about the initials. I PMd Marie and asked her if she would mind if I e-mailed the Sumter County Sheriff to see if there was any way we could get a photo of the ring. Having never contacted LE before about a case, I should have mentioned why we wanted to see the photograph to ask if the initial P was larger than the others, but I didn't think of it then. They responded right away and forwarded my e-mail to the Investigative Unit. I got a response which I posted below. I did e-mail Sgt. Mackessy back to ask if he could still tell if the P was larger. I haven't heard back yet, but like I said I should have told them in my initial e-mail why we wanted to see the photograph. Anyway, they were very helpful and prompt and I don't want to bother them too much. So if he writes back about the size of the initials, I'll post his response.

Mrs. Miller
Thank you for your interest in this case. In answer to your question about the initials “JPF” on the inside of the ring worn by the unknown male. An attempt was made to photograph the initials without success. The initials are in such a condition to prevent photography. In regards to the teeth. We have had a Forensic Dentist examine the teeth and he is in the process of compiling a dental record on both the male and the female. Currently the teeth and the femur bones have been sent to the FBI Lab in Texas to extract DNA and compare the DNA to the worldwide data bases. I hope I have adequately answered your questions. Thank you again for your interest and your help.

Sgt Ray Mackessy
Crime Scene Unit Supervisor
Sumter County Sheriff’s Office
Sumter, SC


wow that was QUICK,,,,,I cant wait to her the response It would help us to rule out the last name as an F......keep us updated thanks !!!!!

SeriouslySearching
09-06-2007, 11:58 AM
Good job! Makes me wonder if your email was the only thing they have gotten on this case in a long time! While it is too bad we can't obtain a photo of the initials, determining if the middle letter is larger will certainly make a huge difference.

Marie
09-06-2007, 12:08 PM
Marie came up with the idea of seeing a photograph of the ring after Rhett mentioned about the initials. I PMd Marie and asked her if she would mind if I e-mailed the Sumter County Sheriff to see if there was any way we could get a photo of the ring. Having never contacted LE before about a case, I should have mentioned why we wanted to see the photograph to ask if the initial P was larger than the others, but I didn't think of it then. They responded right away and forwarded my e-mail to the Investigative Unit. I got a response which I posted below. I did e-mail Sgt. Mackessy back to ask if he could still tell if the P was larger. I haven't heard back yet, but like I said I should have told them in my initial e-mail why we wanted to see the photograph. Anyway, they were very helpful and prompt and I don't want to bother them too much. So if he writes back about the size of the initials, I'll post his response.

Mrs. Miller
Thank you for your interest in this case. In answer to your question about the initials “JPF” on the inside of the ring worn by the unknown male. An attempt was made to photograph the initials without success. The initials are in such a condition to prevent photography. In regards to the teeth. We have had a Forensic Dentist examine the teeth and he is in the process of compiling a dental record on both the male and the female. Currently the teeth and the femur bones have been sent to the FBI Lab in Texas to extract DNA and compare the DNA to the worldwide data bases. I hope I have adequately answered your questions. Thank you again for your interest and your help.

Sgt Ray Mackessy
Crime Scene Unit Supervisor
Sumter County Sheriff’s Office
Sumter, SC

Yes, very good job! :clap: You must have wrote one impressive email to get the quick and helpful response that you did :) Don't feel bad at all for forgetting to mention why we wanted to know. I can't wait to hear about the middle initial!!

I'm a little disappointed with his reply regarding the teeth. I really wanted to know if he actually had missing teeth or not since that could pinpoint how long he'd been away from home before his murder. But it's good news about the Forensic Dentist compiling a record - maybe it'll be published again.

Wish the DNA tests would hurry up already

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 01:57 PM
Thank you all...I'm disappointed in the teeth too. I know it sometimes takes months to get DNA. They exhumed the bodies in June so it's been almost 3 months now.

I just received this reply from Sgt. Mackessy -

All the initials are of the same size.

phenolred
09-06-2007, 02:09 PM
hmmmmm same size.....now im leaning on the side of the F being the last name. Who wants to write Dr Forsey? I would but I cant barely spell and write here LOL

he would think I was a moron.....

Marie
09-06-2007, 02:38 PM
I just received this reply from Sgt. Mackessy -

All the initials are of the same size.

I'm so glad you wrote to him as that's such an important clue. I agree with phenolred, F is most likely the last name initial. Now lets hope he didn't steal it ;)

phenolred
09-06-2007, 03:14 PM
ok I had been doing alot a searching for the guy, and I just swiched over to the girl looking on google for "missing 3 moles" daughter sister missing several moles on face. and remember she had one on her right leg calf too but I was focusing on the ones on the face because anybody that knew her would see those... No luck so far feel free to help out with this...I thought somebody might have posted something on a website about a missing friend realitive etc that went missing in the 70's with 3 small moles on her face!!!!

Marie
09-06-2007, 03:41 PM
ok I had been doing alot a searching for the guy, and I just swiched over to the girl looking on google for "missing 3 moles" daughter sister missing several moles on face. and remember she had one on her right leg calf too but I was focusing on the ones on the face because anybody that knew her would see those... No luck so far feel free to help out with this...I thought somebody might have posted something on a website about a missing friend realitive etc that went missing in the 70's with 3 small moles on her face!!!!

I've done the same thing with both of them. Great minds think alike, lol. :) Lots of newspaperarchive.com searches, too. I get creeped out at all the gruesome crimes that took place in the 'good ol' days'; reporting used to be a lot more lurid.

Keep it up. Someone, somewhere knows these two - old friends, family, their mailman, drug dealer, priest, co-worker, somebody!

I think our John Doe left home in his late teens, in the very late 1960's or early 1970's. He was probably never reported missing, which is why I was thinking the same as you - a friend or relative looking for him (or her) could be our best shot.

rmf
09-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Who wants to write Dr Forsey? I would but I cant barely spell and write here LOL



I'd be willing to volunteer to do that- however, I think that perhaps the LE folks who are working in this case should be consulted first... since any letter I would send would direct the Dr. to contact LE in SC if he's related to these people.

Also there are people here who've been "working" this case longer than me so I would certainly not want to step on any toes in that regard.

Thoughts?

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 05:22 PM
ok I had been doing alot a searching for the guy, and I just swiched over to the girl looking on google for "missing 3 moles" daughter sister missing several moles on face. and remember she had one on her right leg calf too but I was focusing on the ones on the face because anybody that knew her would see those... No luck so far feel free to help out with this...I thought somebody might have posted something on a website about a missing friend realitive etc that went missing in the 70's with 3 small moles on her face!!!!

Good idea...I actually thought I found her once on a missing persons site from Canada but the age didn't match up and she wasn't reported missing until the 1980s sometime. That's about the only way we would probably find her, is to happen upon her photo on a missing persons website from where ever she is from. But it was a good idea to think about the moles on her face. They were rather prominent.

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 05:29 PM
I'd be willing to volunteer to do that- however, I think that perhaps the LE folks who are working in this case should be consulted first... since any letter I would send would direct the Dr. to contact LE in SC if he's related to these people.

Also there are people here who've been "working" this case longer than me so I would certainly not want to step on any toes in that regard.

Thoughts?

Phenolred and rmf - I do think the resemblance between John Doe and Dr. Forsey is uncanny. I don't feel qualified either though to contact him and agree any contacting should be done through the Sumter County LE. I really don't know how to approach it with them...I don't want to bug them again for a while (LOL)...They probably all had a good laugh about "some woman in Ohio who thinks she can solve this!" Seriously though, they couldn't have been nicer but I don't want to push it with them just now. But there is such a strong resemblance!

rmf
09-06-2007, 06:44 PM
Phenolred and rmf - I do think the resemblance between John Doe and Dr. Forsey is uncanny. I don't feel qualified either though to contact him and agree any contacting should be done through the Sumter County LE. I really don't know how to approach it with them...I don't want to bug them again for a while (LOL)...They probably all had a good laugh about "some woman in Ohio who thinks she can solve this!" Seriously though, they couldn't have been nicer but I don't want to push it with them just now. But there is such a strong resemblance!

Here's an idea:

Since you've already had contact with the LE folks in this case, how about crafting a note to them, laying out the theory about the Canadian doctor, the search of the Royal College of Physicians in Canada and the possible "hit" on Dr. Forsey. (Including links to the photo comparison along with Dr. Forsey's information)

You could then mention that you thought this may be a feasible lead and that you wanted that information passed along to them so that if they so choose, they can pursue it.

That may be the best route, no?

PS: I highly doubt they think you're a good laugh. Small jurisdictions like that one have limited resources and likely appreciate the help a "fresh brain" can offer in a situation like this. :)

bowler
09-06-2007, 09:32 PM
I believe Ms. Verna would be delighted if the great minds here at Websleuths could help with this cold case.
I have read here for years, rarely post but this is in my backyard so to speak :)
~~Nancy


Ms. Verna Moore, Coroner

Sumter County Courthouse
141 N. Main Street - 1st Floor
Sumter, South Carolina 29150
Phone: 803-436-2111 (Office)
Bpr: 803-778-3613 * Fax: 803-436-2495
Office Hours: Monday - Friday, 8:30 AM till 5:00 PM

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 10:41 PM
Here's an idea:

Since you've already had contact with the LE folks in this case, how about crafting a note to them, laying out the theory about the Canadian doctor, the search of the Royal College of Physicians in Canada and the possible "hit" on Dr. Forsey. (Including links to the photo comparison along with Dr. Forsey's information)

You could then mention that you thought this may be a feasible lead and that you wanted that information passed along to them so that if they so choose, they can pursue it.

That may be the best route, no?

PS: I highly doubt they think you're a good laugh. Small jurisdictions like that one have limited resources and likely appreciate the help a "fresh brain" can offer in a situation like this. :)


Thanks for the vote of confidence...I think it's a good idea but I think I'll hold off just for a bit...Like I said, I really think Dr. Forsey and John Doe look alike but I want to do a bit more searching about Dr. F online first. Thanks again! :)

MaryLiz
09-06-2007, 10:51 PM
I believe Ms. Verna would be delighted if the great minds here at Websleuths could help with this cold case.
I have read here for years, rarely post but this is in my backyard so to speak :)
~~Nancy


Ms. Verna Moore, Coroner

Sumter County Courthouse
141 N. Main Street - 1st Floor
Sumter, South Carolina 29150
Phone: 803-436-2111 (Office)
Bpr: 803-778-3613 * Fax: 803-436-2495
Office Hours: Monday - Friday, 8:30 AM till 5:00 PM

Nancy, I always thought if I ever found out anything useful about this I would contact Verna Moore. I think about her a lot when I'm searching online for info about this case. I have only been looking for possible leads on the identity of these 2 since I first read about the case in 2004...that's just 3 years...she has literally been pursuing this for 31 years! She is determined never to give up on at least finding out who they are.

rmf
09-07-2007, 12:14 AM
Nancy, I always thought if I ever found out anything useful about this I would contact Verna Moore. I think about her a lot when I'm searching online for info about this case. I have only been looking for possible leads on the identity of these 2 since I first read about the case in 2004...that's just 3 years...she has literally been pursuing this for 31 years! She is determined never to give up on at least finding out who they are.

I think contacting Verna is a fantastic idea! I wouldn't waste any time... what do you have to lose? If you want help drafting a letter, PM me, I'd be glad to assist. ;)

SeriouslySearching
09-07-2007, 01:48 AM
They were certainly quick on response about the initials in the ring! Great! So it does seem the F would be the initial of a last name.

While the vic might look a lot like Dr. Forsey...it would be a good idea for us to check into things a bit further, imo. The idea someone had of combing the high school reunion sites was a good one. (I still think the watch was a graduation gift.)

There are other avenues we can pursue in finding out his or her identities. Keep thinking outside the box!

MaryLiz
09-07-2007, 07:38 AM
I think contacting Verna is a fantastic idea! I wouldn't waste any time... what do you have to lose? If you want help drafting a letter, PM me, I'd be glad to assist. ;)

rmf - Thanks for the offer. I will PM you about it...I think as SeriouslySearching said below we should do a bit more checking into this. I wanted to contact someone as soon as I saw the side by side photos of Dr. Forsey and John Doe but the more I thought about it, the more something just kept telling me to hold off a bit. If I decide to draft a letter to Verna Moore or anyone else in Sumter County LE, I will definitely PM you for help!

MaryLiz
09-07-2007, 07:41 AM
They were certainly quick on response about the initials in the ring! Great! So it does seem the F would be the initial of a last name.

While the vic might look a lot like Dr. Forsey...it would be a good idea for us to check into things a bit further, imo. The idea someone had of combing the high school reunion sites was a good one. (I still think the watch was a graduation gift.)

There are other avenues we can pursue in finding out his or her identities. Keep thinking outside the box!

I agree about checking into things further. The idea of high school reunion sites is a good one. I think also checking into Dr. Forsey a bit further is a good idea too. After posting the info from the directory of the Royal College of Medicine, I think rmf said Dr. F. was all over the Internet so I might search around more for him this weekend.

froggierintexas
09-07-2007, 08:10 AM
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cotta_jan.html

If this was already listed, sorry didn't see it.

I thought this could be a possible match.

If I let my imagination run wild I can picture this young lady waiting in the stables for her love. The father of her child. Getting into the car to start life anew. But then I stop because I really would like to think she and the young man drove into the sunset and lived their wonderfully long and happy life with their child and are still somewhere living that happy life but I know that probably isn't the case.
Anway...
I probably watch to much tv.

phenolred
09-07-2007, 01:26 PM
I thinking maybe these two aren't on a missing persons website but they could be. Since they were both more than likely over 18, their families thoght they moved away on their own and just never contacted them again. So thats why I thought about doing the classmates.com or myspace thing. They had to have friends that have always wondered what ever happend to so and so????

phenolred
09-07-2007, 01:34 PM
I thought of a possible theory last night. I think it has been said on here before that the highway near where they were found was a drug running route. Maybe they went to Florida to pick up drugs maybe cocaine, wasnt that popular to back in the 70's (think studio 54) On their way back they stopped in SC stayed at the KOA and maybe shared some of the drug with a local and this local saw the large amount of the drug and deceided to kill them for the drugs and their car. I am also sure that the police know what kind of car left the crime scene but they just haven't released that info. I also wonder what kind of car the KOA guy saw them in. I wonder if someone could look up more old newspaper articles and find out the name of the KOA guy AND the truck driver that found them. Then maybe somebody here could ask them questions directly as to what they remember.

Gina_M
09-07-2007, 09:14 PM
I was wondering, too, if there was any more info about the guy at the KOA, if he saw their car, etc. I searched the newspaper archives the other day...everything I found is posted back on page 8. Maybe someone else will have better luck :)

Gina_M
09-07-2007, 09:20 PM
The High Point Enterprise
High Point, NC
September 19, 1976

The young man had exceptional dental work. Sumter dentists who examined his body said he was in the process of having a complete mouth restoration, with several thousands of dollars worth of root canal caps, tooth caps and bridge work. They say the job was about half-finished.

...

a mechanic in Nebraska said he thought the man was someone who had had work done on a vehicle with either Washington or Oregon plates. But that lead has so far failed to produce any other information.

I think the mechanic in Nebraska story is interesting. The truck stop the matchbook came from had 3 locations, and one of them was Nebraska. Washington or Oregon plates would fit with the idea that his dad lived in Canada. Maybe the son moved out and moved down to Washington or Oregon. Then he decided to take a cross-country trip.

rmf
09-07-2007, 11:09 PM
I think the mechanic in Nebraska story is interesting. The truck stop the matchbook came from had 3 locations, and one of them was Nebraska. Washington or Oregon plates would fit with the idea that his dad lived in Canada. Maybe the son moved out and moved down to Washington or Oregon. Then he decided to take a cross-country trip.

I have gone back and forth in my mind about whether the truck stop matches are significant. Jacques Doe and his companion had just stayed in a campground and may have randomly picked up the matches there to start a fire at their campsite. I do think that they must have had a car though and whoever did this, probably took their car.

rmf
09-07-2007, 11:15 PM
I thought of a possible theory last night. I think it has been said on here before that the highway near where they were found was a drug running route. Maybe they went to Florida to pick up drugs maybe cocaine, wasnt that popular to back in the 70's

I have thought the same things.

I have this theory: it is possible they were both of Cuban decent. There were Cubans pouring into Florida in the early 70s, many of them on rafts as refugees. It is possible these people were at one time Cuban refugees and had no family in the U.S. It also makes sense on another level: one thing I don't understand is WHY a prominent doctor's son would need a total overhaul on his teeth. One would assume he'd received decent dental care all along.

It *could* make sense that this guy was Cuban, had come to the USA and had NOT had good dental care in Cuba. He could have gotten involved in running coke up and down the I-95 corridor, and was making enough money to have his teeth fixed. In the third world, good teeth and decent dental work are a sign of wealth. It could be that he was trading coke with a dentist for the work. Back in those days it is not beyond the realm of possiblity that a young swingin' Dentist would trade work in this way. It would also explain why no one came forward to identify the dentals AND would explain why no family came forward. Even if the families WERE in Miami, they might be too afraid to claim the bodies if it was a drug-related hit.

This does not explain, however, why the male had an elaborate story about Canada for the KOA campground worker. Or maybe it does...

The DNA results will be very telling. If the results yield a Hispanic nationality for these two, then I think the chances of identifying them will be very slim.

Just thinkin' :cool:

Teresa Larson
09-08-2007, 03:39 AM
The matches could have also came from a truck stop in Grants New Mexico. That could also explain the jewelry Maybe they were from that area. I wonder if any trucking companies lost a truck in the area around that time. Truck drivers walk away from their trucks all of the time. The company may have thought that's what happened. It would be next to impossible to find that out from that long ago. My deceased husband was a truck driver I used to go with him a lot over the road. Truckers are good people. They look out for each other especially back then. I don't think it's right to stero type because there are bad and good people in every profession Another thought IF the deceased guy was a trucker he would have had a CDL. Maybe they robbed him for what he had loaded on his truck. I have also even considered that maybe it was a mob hit since they were killed the way they were. There are lots of possibilites here.

Marie
09-08-2007, 09:05 AM
Does anyone have an engraved ring? How long does it take for the engravings to fade or rub off?

MaryLiz
09-08-2007, 11:56 AM
I have thought the same things.

I have this theory: it is possible they were both of Cuban decent. There were Cubans pouring into Florida in the early 70s, many of them on rafts as refugees. It is possible these people were at one time Cuban refugees and had no family in the U.S. It also makes sense on another level: one thing I don't understand is WHY a prominent doctor's son would need a total overhaul on his teeth. One would assume he'd received decent dental care all along.

It *could* make sense that this guy was Cuban, had come to the USA and had NOT had good dental care in Cuba. He could have gotten involved in running coke up and down the I-95 corridor, and was making enough money to have his teeth fixed. In the third world, good teeth and decent dental work are a sign of wealth. It could be that he was trading coke with a dentist for the work. Back in those days it is not beyond the realm of possiblity that a young swingin' Dentist would trade work in this way. It would also explain why no one came forward to identify the dentals AND would explain why no family came forward. Even if the families WERE in Miami, they might be too afraid to claim the bodies if it was a drug-related hit.

This does not explain, however, why the male had an elaborate story about Canada for the KOA campground worker. Or maybe it does...

The DNA results will be very telling. If the results yield a Hispanic nationality for these two, then I think the chances of identifying them will be very slim.

Just thinkin' :cool:


That is a very good theory that they (or at least he) may be of Cuban descent. I'm hoping not because as you said, it would next to impossible to identify them. I'm just praying they get the DNA results back soon! But if drugs were involved, and I suspect they were, the chance of him being from Cuba or even Central America is very strong.

MaryLiz
09-08-2007, 12:13 PM
The matches could have also came from a truck stop in Grants New Mexico. That could also explain the jewelry Maybe they were from that area. I wonder if any trucking companies lost a truck in the area around that time. Truck drivers walk away from their trucks all of the time. The company may have thought that's what happened. It would be next to impossible to find that out from that long ago. My deceased husband was a truck driver I used to go with him a lot over the road. Truckers are good people. They look out for each other especially back then. I don't think it's right to stero type because there are bad and good people in every profession Another thought IF the deceased guy was a trucker he would have had a CDL. Maybe they robbed him for what he had loaded on his truck. I have also even considered that maybe it was a mob hit since they were killed the way they were. There are lots of possibilites here.

I'm not sure of the significance of the matches, but I thought the exact same thing, that they very possibly could have gotten the matches at a Grant's Truck Stop in New Mexico simply because of Jane Doe's rings. The rings look very much like they could have come from that area. That type of jewlery with turquoise and red stones that looked Native American or even Mexican in design was extremely popular in the 70s. I had 2 or 3 turquoise rings myself back then. They quite possibly could have been purchased in New Mexico. They sure don't look very old, like she hadn't had them long at all.



http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-3-Jane-Does-ring.jpg http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-4-Jane-Does-ring.jpg


And some kind of mob hit isn't out of the realm of possibility either because they were both shot in the exact same places on their body, at close range in the back, chest and throat.

Richard
09-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Does anyone have an engraved ring? How long does it take for the engravings to fade or rub off?

I have been wearing a ring with engraving inside for 29 years. It is still as clear and sharp as when the ring was new.

Marie
09-10-2007, 12:19 PM
I have been wearing a ring with engraving inside for 29 years. It is still as clear and sharp as when the ring was new.

Thanks very much Richard. Makes me wonder why his was so faded.

Marie
09-10-2007, 12:25 PM
Today I decided to research John's ring. I found some very interesting information. I wish his stone would speak to us!!


Linde star sapphire ("Linde stars") are synthetic star sapphires that were first made by the Linde Air Products Company in 1947. The Linde company later became a division of Union Carbide. The Linde company went out of business in the late 70's.

Linde Stars (Artificial Star Sapphires) -Stone is created in a lab, along with the star and color. Linde stars were manufactured en masse by the Linde division of Union Carbide since about the early 1950’s.

Star Sapphire Legends and Lore:

Few if any gemstones have the mystery, the mystique, the legend and history of star sapphire and star ruby. Treasured since the dawn of man, they are a stone that's hard to compare.

This stone is know as the Destiny Stone or the Stone of Destiny. 3-crossed lines represent 'faith, hope, and destiny.' Many people believe the star to be a good luck piece.

The ancients regarded star sapphires as a very powerful talisman, a guiding star for travelers and seekers of all kinds. They were so powerful, they were said to continue to protect the wearer even after being passed on to someone else.

People have thought that they had demons or angels of light living in them. And because they turned dark at night, they were thought to go to sleep, just like people.

People have worn them for protection from evil spirits or attackers, they carried them in medicine and healing pouches, they are powerful spirits in the shamanistic world.

People use them for saying and seeing the future or for objects of meditation. They are said to speak for, or are the voices of the mineral world spirits.

The stars in all stones are believed to increase the gemstones magical powers, because it's the all seeing eye of the spirit contained in the stone.

They speak only when in the light and their voice is one of movement and shadow light shades. They are the symbol of the heavens.

Marie
09-10-2007, 12:44 PM
The Bulova Accutron was first sold to the public in November of 1960.

During the Accutron’s heyday from 1960 to about 1970, only about two million units were sold.

The two (of six total) model considered most collectible are the model 214 and 218.

The 214, which came out first, has the set mechanism in the back of the watch. It is a small semi-circular lever that is lifted with a fingernail.

The 218 is distinguished by a conventional crown along the side of the watch, located at the 4 o’clock position.

Bulova introduced the 218 in 1965 and gradually phased out the 214 for several reasons.

Various models of the 218 were produced until 1977.

Bulova provided a unique dating system on their cases beginning in 1949 which allows accurate dating of any Accutron. The codes were used as follows:

A9 = 1949 (this was the first dating done)
L0-L9 - 1950's. L2 = 1952, etc.
M0-M9 - 1960's. M6 = 1966, etc.
N0-N9 - 1970's. N3 = 1973, etc.

The date code can be found at the bottom of the case back. It will be a two digit alpha/numeric code, not to be confused with the longer alpha/numeric case reference above it.

Serial numbers that begin with a letter were made in the USA.
The serial number contains no other useful information about the watch. Inside of the back cover there is a 4 digit case number printed or stamped. That number is the key to all information about the model.

phenolred
09-10-2007, 01:14 PM
I had just went back and re-read some of the information, and I see that the Jane Doe was wearing Stride Rite shoes and Levi cut off shorts. This leads me to beleive she was american. Arent stride rite shoes kids shoes??

Wonder what brand his shoes were?

Good work on the ring info and watch info, I know I read the police followed up on the serial number on the watch I wonder if they found out it was not made in the US

phenolred
09-10-2007, 01:33 PM
Ok I found this about her shoes.....Seems they didnt start selling them internationally until 1991....Hmmm

During the 1970s, faced with stalled profits due to skyrocketing leather prices and competition from low-priced imports, the company decided to explore new territory, entering the market for the outdoorsy, sporty shoes gaining popularity among young people and children.

in 1991, Stride Rite founded Stride Rite International as a vehicle for marketing its products in foreign countries. The division marketed Stride Rite shoe lines in Europe, Asia, and Latin America

Does anyone remember Stride Rite stores from the 70's were they expensive shoes back then?

Marie
09-10-2007, 02:05 PM
Good work on the ring info and watch info, I know I read the police followed up on the serial number on the watch I wonder if they found out it was not made in the US

Thanks phenolred. I'm going to forward the info I found to LE just in case they don't have it. At the very least they can/did learn what year the watch was made. If they did follow up on the serial number then I'm sure they know it wasn't made in the US - what that means I'm not sure, but to someone familiar with the history of Bulova Accutron, the date codes may tell them where it was sold (ie, certain models were produced in certain countries in certain years). Of course, where the watch was SOLD is very important information, as that *could* be where John is from.

MaryLiz
09-10-2007, 02:20 PM
Phenolred and Marie - Excellent info on the shoes and the watch.

That's a good idea to forward the info on the watch to LE..I think I read somewhere that they did determine the watch was made in 1968 or 1969, but I can't find it at the moment. It would be great if they could tell from the serial # what country the watch was purchased in.

Marie
09-10-2007, 02:21 PM
Ok I found this about her shoes.....Seems they didnt start selling them internationally until 1991....Hmmm

Does anyone remember Stride Rite stores from the 70's were they expensive shoes back then?

Good work on the research. They were good quality but reasonably priced shoes; we know her shoes came from he US.

Marie
09-10-2007, 02:30 PM
Phenolred and Marie - Excellent info on the shoes and the watch.

That's a good idea to forward the info on the watch to LE..I think I read somewhere that they did determine the watch was made in 1968 or 1969, but I can't find it at the moment. It would be great if they could tell from the serial # what country the watch was purchased in.

Thanks Liz325. Can you please find for me the info about when the watch was made? Or let me know where to look? I've always thought that John looks older than the about 26yo age given, and a graduation gift watch from 1968 or 69 would mean I'm *not* right (an 18yo when a HS graduate, and 25-26yo 7 or 8 years later in 1976).

Btw, the serial # won't give them any more information, but the Date Code could :)

BOESP
09-10-2007, 02:40 PM
Since this fellow probably turned 18 before 1973, if he is an American, he would have had some type draft status. If anyone has access to old draft records maybe his initials could be checked against the rosters.

MaryLiz
09-10-2007, 02:50 PM
Thanks Liz325. Can you please find for me the info about when the watch was made? Or let me know where to look? I've always thought that John looks older than the about 26yo age given, and a graduation gift watch from 1968 or 69 would mean I'm *not* right (an 18yo when a HS graduate, and 25-26yo 7 or 8 years later in 1976).

Btw, the serial # won't give them any more information, but the Date Code could :)


Sorry, I meant date code. I'm reading and posting on here when I'm supposed to be working so I was in a hurry!

It was from the Doe Network where it said the watch was made in 1968. Here's the link to John Doe's page on the Doe Network and the statement about the watch. Thanks!

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

Jewelry: He wore a Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 on his left hand. Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed. A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.

phenolred
09-10-2007, 03:14 PM
This composite is good it shows her teeth, I was reading that the male was wearing Levis too.

I wonder what type shoes I need to go back to the crime scene photo and see if it can be enlarged to see the shoe type....

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/189UFSC5.jpg

well I enlarged the photo of the crime scene and its too blurry to tell about his shoes...I wonder if they were generics? But usually wealthy people were good shoes...

I wonder if we could give the LE or Verna a link here I wish they would join & help answer some questions

rmf
09-10-2007, 03:49 PM
Hi Everyone,

I wanted to update you on the potential lead on Dr. Forsey in Canada.

I chatted with a fellow websleuther here and we decided to telephone Verna Moore at the Sumter County Coroner's office and talk to her. I called her on Friday and I can't begin to tell you what a wonderfully nice lady she is.

She was THRILLED that people are still following this case and trying to come up with leads. She urged me to fax her the info on Dr Forsey and the other Canadian doctors I found. I faxed that information over to her on Friday.

She shared some other info about this case with me that with her permission I am going to post here as well. From what I could gather from her, the general feeling she has is that law enforcement in that county really has given up on solving this case. In fact, according to her, a lot of the evidence has been misplaced or even LOST. I think that there is not a lot of hope that the perp in this crime will be caught, it is more of a moral obligation she feels she has to try to find these people's relatives. We discussed the possiblility that these killings were drug related. Ms. Moore believes emphatically that this was a professional hit. They were executed. So the thought that they were running cocaine perhaps up and down the I-95 corridor is a very strong possibility. Also, the man at the KOA campground who supposedly met the male victim playing pool is now deceased, so there is no way to go back and talk to him. It is possible he met someone ELSE who looked similar and thinks that is the same person, so the Canada theory could be completely off-base.

About Dr. Forsey though: Verna called me this morning and I missed her, and then she called me back again just a short while ago and we talked. After our contact on Friday, she had her forensics guy look at the info I faxed her, and he said it was a solid lead so she called Dr Forsey in Montreal. She said he was very nice and told her he does not have boys and that no one in his family is missing.

They are still waiting for DNA and she promised me she would call me and let me know when the DNA results come in. If I hear from her, I'll post that info here. I am not sure how long it will take though.

She asked me specifically to THANK YOU ALL for still working on this case. She says that any and all solid leads are welcomed by her. She asks though that you NOT EMAIL THEM TO HER, as her email is not secure. She prefers you call her on her cell phone, 803-491-4088 (she gave me permission to post this) and she will discuss the situation with you and then you can fax any info to her directly.

Obviously we don't want to take up her time with leads that may not be promising so if you come up with something make sure you have lots of back up documentation for her forensics guy to research.

She hopes to get the mystery of this couple's identity solved soon, she plans to only run for re-election one more time in Sumter county before retiring.

phenolred
09-10-2007, 04:08 PM
Hi Everyone,

I wanted to update you on the potential lead on Dr. Forsey in Canada.

I chatted with a fellow websleuther here and we decided to telephone Verna Moore at the Sumter County Coroner's office and talk to her. I called her on Friday and I can't begin to tell you what a wonderfully nice lady she is.

She was THRILLED that people are still following this case and trying to come up with leads. She urged me to fax her the info on Dr Forsey and the other Canadian doctors I found. I faxed that information over to her on Friday.

She shared some other info about this case with me that with her permission I am going to post here as well. From what I could gather from her, the general feeling she has is that law enforcement in that county really has given up on solving this case. In fact, according to her, a lot of the evidence has been misplaced or even LOST. I think that there is not a lot of hope that the perp in this crime will be caught, it is more of a moral obligation she feels she has to try to find these people's relatives. We discussed the possiblility that these killings were drug related. Ms. Moore believes emphatically that this was a professional hit. They were executed. So the thought that they were running cocaine perhaps up and down the I-95 corridor is a very strong possibility. Also, the man at the KOA campground who supposedly met the male victim playing pool is now deceased, so there is no way to go back and talk to him. It is possible he met someone ELSE who looked similar and thinks that is the same person, so the Canada theory could be completely off-base.

About Dr. Forsey though: Verna called me this morning and I missed her, and then she called me back again just a short while ago and we talked. After our contact on Friday, she had her forensics guy look at the info I faxed her, and he said it was a solid lead so she called Dr Forsey in Montreal. She said he was very nice and told her he does not have boys and that no one in his family is missing.

They are still waiting for DNA and she promised me she would call me and let me know when the DNA results come in. If I hear from her, I'll post that info here. I am not sure how long it will take though.

She asked me specifically to THANK YOU ALL for still working on this case. She says that any and all solid leads are welcomed by her. She asks though that you NOT EMAIL THEM TO HER, as her email is not secure. She prefers you call her on her cell phone, 803-491-4088 (she gave me permission to post this) and she will discuss the situation with you and then you can fax any info to her directly.

Obviously we don't want to take up her time with leads that may not be promising so if you come up with something make sure you have lots of back up documentation for her forensics guy to research.

She hopes to get the mystery of this couple's identity solved soon, she plans to only run for re-election one more time in Sumter county before retiring.

WOW this is awesome!!!!!! it is nice to know she is so open and interested. I wonder if she can answer the question about an accent BUT if the KOA guy was wrong, then I guess that wouldnt matter. I am so excited that Dr Forsey was checked out, hopefully he wasnt lying.

rmf
09-10-2007, 04:14 PM
WOW this is awesome!!!!!! it is nice to know she is so open and interested. I wonder if she can answer the question about an accent BUT if the KOA guy was wrong, then I guess that wouldnt matter. I am so excited that Dr Forsey was checked out, hopefully he wasnt lying.

I know, isn't it great!? Verna said she can usually tell when someone is lying and she said she believes Dr Forsey was sincere. She is such a neat lady. But it's also a bit sad to me, because it shows that there are just so many dead ends in this case! Since the KOA manager has passed away, it is hard to know if the person he told the police about was the same person as "Jacques" Doe or not.

Verna also told me that psychics have been consulted about this and both (independently of one another) stated the killings were drug related and very dangerous.

Interesting, eh?