Mystery couple murdered South Carolina 1976

[Richard]

The following ran in The Item newspaper on August 12, 2001.

The Mystery: No I.D., No Leads, No Justice
By Sharyn Lucas-Parker, Senior Staff Writer, The Item

In August of 1976, a woman and a man were found slain beside a dirt road in Sumter County. The deaths are unsolved and they still are unidentified. But they are not forgotten

The two people buried in Bethel United Methodist Church cemetery whose bronze plaques read ''Male Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976," and ''Female Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976,'' never attended a service at the Oswego church or paid tithes there. But for the past 24 years, the members of the church have made sure their resting places remain free of weeds and overgrown grass and that fresh bouquets of flowers mark their graves.

There has been no one else to do it.

''If it were some of our children, we would hope someone would do the same thing for us,'' said the Rev. Michael Henderson, who has been the pastor for six years. ''It's part of that 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'"

Somewhere, perhaps thousands of miles away, or maybe just a state or even only a county over, local authorities believe there are heart-sick relatives who might suspect, but don't know for certain, their loved ones are dead.

Twenty-eight years after the young woman and man were found dead on a dark, secluded Sumter County dirt road between Interstate 95 and S.C. 341, their identities as well as that of their killer or killers remain a mystery.

That thought haunts Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore and drives her to continue trying to find the answers she needs to solve this puzzle that dates back to Aug. 9, 1976.

"I have not given up on this case,'' said Moore, who was deputy coroner back then. ''The reason I am haunted is, I cannot understand how two young people disappeared from somewhere and that their parents would not be looking for them. This does not make sense to me. Somebody somewhere is missing a son or a daughter.''

The case also bothers Sumter County Sheriff Tommy Mims, who was an investigator with the sheriff's office at the time.

''This is one of several cases over the years that we would certainly love to bring to a close so we can identify the perpetrators and bring them to justice on this,'' Mims said.

The story begins around 6:20 a.m. on August 9, when a trucker driving along what was commonly known as Locklair Road, a frontage road just off the interstate, stopped to rest.

Instead, he found a disturbing scene: Two people lying by the road.

Links: http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/

[Richard]

Links:

http://doenetwork.us/cases/198umsc.html

http://doenetwork.us/cases/189ufsc.html

Unidentified Caucasian Male
Located on August 9, 1976 in Sumter, South Carolina.
An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat.
The couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 22 years old but possibly older.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'1/4"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown eyes; brown hair. Two 2-inch scars on his right shoulder area. 4" appendectomy scar. Tall and athletic looking. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones.
Dentals: Available. Extensive dental work. Very elaborate dental work with crowns and bridges. Crown on left front tooth, acrylic or porcelain. Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left. He is missing his wisdom teeth on the bottom in the back.
Clothing: He was wearing a pair of faded Levi blue jeans, a red t-shirt with Coors America's light beer on the front and Camel Challenger G-T Sebring 75 across the back. It most likely came from the 1975 Coor's sponsored Sebring Races in Florida. Inside his pants pocket were a box of Grants Truck Stop Matches. They had likely come from a truckstop in the Midwest.
Jewelry: He wore a Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 on his left hand. Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed. A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.

Case History
In 1976 this male and his companion were found dead on a secluded Sumter County, South Carolina dirt road between Interstate 95 and SC 341. They were located by a trucker driving along what was commonly known as Locklair Road, a frontage road just off the interstate.
Their identities as well as that of their killer still remains a mystery. Neither had any identification.
They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country.
Investigators wondered if they had been hitchhiking cross country, or if they had been victims of a carjacking.
They were a clean-cut-looking pair. Authorities speculated they might even be brother and sister.

No drugs or alcohol were found on their bodies. They were not smokers. And neither had on underwear.
Investigators had checked out every lead, including trying to identify them through their finger prints and using the serial number on the man's watch in hopes of trying to track down the jewelry store where he might have bought the piece of jewelry. Officials with Interpol as well as U.S. Customs investigators and immigration authorities also had been alerted. Contact were made with agencies in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, and in the Mediterranean.
A forensic dentist in Spartanburg charted the young man’s mouth and the American Dental Association published his findings, hoping a dentist somewhere would recognize the work. The dead man had undergone extensive dental work, including fillings, root canals and crowns. No dentist ever came forward.

The autopsy revealed the pair had eaten fruit or ice cream with fruit not long before they died so investigators were certain the two must have bought the food from a local eatery or store. Someone remembered seeing a couple matching the dead couple's descriptions at a fruit stand that was located off the Florence Highway, but the person couldn't say whether the man and woman were with someone else or if they were riding in a car.

Months after the homicide, an employee of KOA campgrounds near Santee, S.C., called authorities, believing he had earlier made friends with the dead man, who went by the name “Jock,” according to documents in the case file.
Jock, or more likely, Jacques, stayed a few days at the campgrounds with his young female companion, then left for Florida. He and his girlfriend stopped at the campgrounds again on their way back.
The two men became friends. While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine. He was taking a vacation of sorts, traveling the country aimlessly.
Before leaving, he tried to pawn an expensive ring to the employee, who later told authorities that the ring had looked a lot like the one found on the mystery man.
Inside his pocket was a book of Grants Truck Stop matches, which could only be found in Idaho, New Mexico and Nebraska. Authorities think Jacques passed through these places on his travels.

-----------------------------
Unidentified Caucasian Female
Located on August 9, 1976 in Sumter, South Carolina.
An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat.
The couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 20 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'5"; 100 - 105 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Medium-length, brown hair; blue/green or blue-gray eyes. She had two small hair moles on her left cheek and another on the right side of her face. Mole behind right leg (calf). Pierced ears, no surgical scars. She was attractive and had very long eyelashes. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones. The girl had unshaven legs.
Dentals: Available. No elaborate dental work. Missing upper and lower wisdom teeth on right. Has upper and lower wisdom teeth on left. Has fillings in all back teeth. If she were to smile, her teeth in the front would give an even appearance.
Clothing: She was wearing cut-off blue jeans, a pink halter top that tied in the front and an unbleached muslin blouse. She was also wearing a pair of Stride Rite, wedge heeled sandals with lavender, pink and purple straps.
Jewelry: Three Silver rings that resembled American Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. One piece was a faceted band with red, white and blue stones. Another ring had a oblong black stone. The third was a large, intricate feather scroll band with a jade insert into the curves of the scroll.

Case History
In 1976 this female and her companion were found dead on a secluded Sumter County, South Carolina dirt road, Locklair Road, between Interstate 95 and SC 341.
Their identities as well as that of their killer still remains a mystery.
Neither had any identification.
They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country.
Investigators wondered if they had been hitchhiking cross country, or if they had been victims of a carjacking.
They were a clean-cut-looking pair. Authorities speculated they might even be brother and sister.
No drugs or alcohol were found on their bodies. And neither had on underwear.
Investigators had checked out every lead, including trying to identify them through their finger prints and using the serial number on the man's watch in hopes of trying to track down the jewelry store where he might have bought the piece of jewelry. Dental records were published in national dental journals. Officials with Interpol as well as U.S. Customs investigators and immigration authorities also had been alerted.
The autopsy revealed the pair had eaten fruit or ice cream with fruit not long before they died so investigators were certain the two must have bought the food from a local eatery or store. Someone remembered seeing a couple matching the dead couple's descriptions at a fruit stand that was located off the Florence Highway, but the person couldn't say whether the man and woman were with someone else or if they were riding in a car.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Sumter County Sheriff's Office
803-436-2790
or
Sumter County Coroner
Verna Moore
803-436-2111

[deputylinda]

fascinating and sorrowful case Richard...i know you have investigated it, do you have any ideas or "gut" feelings about this case? glad to see you on the board by the way!...oh, were these kids European do you think?

[jat]

The two really do look like brother and sister. They also do appear to be European or possibly South American which would explain the unshaven legs also. The article doesn't say, but I wonder how much investigating they have done in cases from other countries? Does anyone know? If the bodies were exhumed they could test their DNA to see if they are brother and sister, but I guess they probably wouldn't do that since it probably wouldn't get them any further. This case is very disturbing. It seems like they dropped the guy with the possible murder weapon a little quickly. Heck, someone could have had his car that night or borrowed his gun, or anything.

[Dark Knight]

My theory: The truck driver did it. We've discovered on another cold case thread that the truckers have a very violent and criminal underculture. And he JUST HAPPENED to park in a secluded area right where the bodies were? We have a lot of trucks in my area, they almost never park anywhere but alongside major highways in well-lit areas. Or parking lots. It's a common sight. Oh yeah, let's not forget we have strong evidence of the male victim having been at a truck stop, too. Truck driver picked them up at a truck stop, killed them at some point, drove them for a day or so to the secluded area (The MO of the current truck driver/serial killer, BTW,) dumped the bodies, and called the police to pretend he just found them in hopes of throwing them off. No indication of them investigating the trucker in the articles. Call it a gut feeling, but I think that could be your guy.

[Richard]

I have not done a lot of detailed study of this particular case. I find it a strange and disturbing one, and wish I knew more about it. What is NOT stated is what raises questions in my mind.
What kind of pistol was used? How did police know that it was stolen? How did their suspect get off so easily? Were they killed where found, or killed elsewhere and transported to the site?
Each victim was shot in the identical manner, almost like some sort of ritual or signature. But there is no mention as to whether this matched with any other murders.
I don't think that these two were hitch hikers. My feeling is that they had been traveling by car, perhaps picked up a hitch hiker and were shot by him for their car, camping gear, and money.
If they had been traveling by foot, where were their back packs? Their clothing would have been worn where the straps would have rubbed, and their shoes would have been considerably worn as well. The girl's shoes just do not fit the picture of a cross country hiker. If simple robery of hitch hikers had been the motive, why did the killer leave all their jewlry?
Had they been traveling by car, the shoes might have shown wear consistant with operation of the gas pedal. Also, what fibers were found on their clothing? Anything consistant with car upolstery or carpeting?
I would like to know what other possessions were found on these two young people. All that is mentioned is a book of matches. Any loose change? Receipts? Combs? Keys? Pens? Pocketknife? You know all the stuff that guys carry in their pockets. Why would the killer take any or all of that and leave the gold ring and watch?
It is odd that they have nice jewlry, yet no underwear. And that no one seems to be looking for them.
There must be some evidence beyond skin color and body hair to lead some experts to speculate that they might be from another country. I wonder if some of the dental techniques noted might have been such a clue.
And the big question today would be: Do investigators have DNA samples of these two? If they are indeed brother and sister as some have speculated, that would be a major bit of information to search data bases on.

[messiecake]

Its very big in Europe for young people to go "backpacking" (traveling around the world exploring aimlessly with everything in a backpack)
Part of that is hitchhiking(which in their home country is considered fairly safe)

I know in other countries numerous backpackers have been murdered/raped so I think its highly posssible they were foreign backpackers innocently accepting a ride from a trucker and an awful fate befell them.


I know from my relatives in Ireland they seem to have a skewed idea of the states and dont realise what a large and sometimes dangerous place it is and do things that are very risky without realising it.

[carolina]

"While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine."

Is there any type of Canadian database for missing people?

[Richard]

"While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine."

Is there any type of Canadian database for missing people?

Yes, the Doenetwork has a section on Canadians who are missing, as well as one for unidentified bodies found in Canada. You go to their website and then select either Missing, or Unidentified. You will be presented with a listing of all cases, or of the option to search Geographically or Chronologically.

link:
http://www.doenetwork.org

[shadowangel]

I knew I could count on Richard to have posted this story....;)

Does anyone else see some similarities between this case and "Cali", the Jane Doe from Caledonia NY? I'll post my list later....

[Richard]

I knew I could count on Richard to have posted this story....;)

Does anyone else see some similarities between this case and "Cali", the Jane Doe from Caledonia NY? I'll post my list later....
I would be interested in seeing your list. Although the two cases are separated by about three years and several hundred miles, I do see some similaritites. All Victims were shot and died of their gunshot wounds after being transported to remote areas. All were clothed, and all had jewlry on them. It would be interesting to see if any bullet slugs or shell casings were recovered - and if there was any match. Also, were there any footprints in the area which did not belong to the victims? That would be perhaps the best forensic link between these two unsolved cases.

[shadowangel]

The information I have is all from internet sources, so the veracity may be questioned in some cases, but I only took note of information which came from at least two independent sources. As to Richard's questions, slugs were recoved from all three victims, but only those from "Cali" have been identified in the media-.38 caliber.

The areas the victims were found in is similar, rural but near major highways (just off I-95 in SC, "Cali" a few miles from I-390 along an intersecting road in NY)
All were shot with small caliber weapons
No shell casings were reported in either case
All were shot multiple times in the upper body, either head or throat and in the back
The females were wearing Native-American style jewelry
Jewelry was left with the victims and clothing were left with the victims, but no ID was located (the SC victims were not wearing underwear, but this could have been due to the hot southern summer weather or common practice in a different country)
In both cases, victims were wearing racing-related clothing believed to be limited production items (produced for one-time events or promotions)
The victims had all recently been in southern areas (the SC couple were reported to have been seen in FL, "Cali" had a distinct tan that could not have developed in NY in Nov)
Speculation that all may have been from another country
Speculation that all may have been hitch-hiking
Both females were similar in appearance ("Cali" 5'3" 120 brown hair 13-18 years of age, SC victim 5'5 105 brown hair 18 years of age)
Neither female victim had been sexually assaulted
No evidence of drug usage

[Richard]

Interesting comparisons between the cases.

It would be interesting to know for certain what types of pistol and ammo were used in both cases. And to know if there were ever ballistics comparisons made between these or other cases.

Generally speaking, any pistol or revolver of 38 caliber and smaller could be considered small caliber, while those of .40, .41, .44 and .45 are usually considered large caliber weapons.

A semi-automatic pistol fires each time the trigger is squeezed, and with each shot, a casing is ejected. A revolver, on the other hand, retains its cartridge casings in the cylinder after a shot is fired. Since no casings were located, it is likely that the murder weapons were revolvers of either .38, .32 or .22 caliber - with .38 being the more likely. Revolver bullets are usually soft lead, while bullets fired by Semi-Automatics are more often copper jacketed.

Fired slugs, if recovered at the scene, can be used to determine the type and make of pistol used. They can also be compared to recovered bullets from other crime scenes to determine if there is an exact match.

[mysteriew]

Am I wrong in thinking the FBI has a database that stores the info about the bullets, and is used for comparision in crimes- to see if they can match the crimes by the bullets? Would these have been submitted?

[Richard]

Am I wrong in thinking the FBI has a database that stores the info about the bullets, and is used for comparision in crimes- to see if they can match the crimes by the bullets? Would these have been submitted?
I believe that the FBI does have such a database, but whether or not they were ever given these bullets, and whether or not they were able to "read" them is another thing. Sometimes a slug is so distorted that it makes classification difficult.

[shadowangel]

as Richard pointed out in his original posts about this case (the following is from Court TV's CrimeLibrary.com)-
SC law enforcement recovered a weapon with the serial number partially filed off from a drunk driver, approximately four months after the murders. Bullets taken from the weapon matched those recovered from the bodies. The driver was released when his alibi apparently checked out.
If the calibers matched, it would seem easy enough to check the slugs recovered from "Cali" to this weapon. I would also hope the weapon would be checked with today's technology for further evidence.

[Mullins]

as Richard pointed out in his original posts about this case (the following is from Court TV's CrimeLibrary.com)-
SC law enforcement recovered a weapon with the serial number partially filed off from a drunk driver, approximately four months after the murders. Bullets taken from the weapon matched those recovered from the bodies. The driver was released when his alibi apparently checked out.
If the calibers matched, it would seem easy enough to check the slugs recovered from "Cali" to this weapon. I would also hope the weapon would be checked with today's technology for further evidence.I have tried to gather info regarding databases for ballistics in the past too. I'm far from an expert on any of this. What I have found is that there is not a national requirement to enter ballistics into a database. (Unless like you mentioned the FBI becomes involved, or Vidocq, etc.) When I looked, I found that there are several ballistics databases (mostly by state and a couple by regions) and they are growing in amounts of information and popularity. I don't know how/who determines when or if cold case ballistics are entered into any sort of database. If you find this out please let me know. I would find it very helpful to have that info. I'm glad that someone else is interested in this too. Some of the ballistics database info links are here:
Note: Please don't be offended by the political nature of some of these links. I'm not trying to stir up any debate on gun control at all by providing these links. This is just info I came across when I was comparing cases like you are with Cali and the SC couple.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/crimelab/1830415
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ballistic
http://www.mitretek.org/publications/ccjt/02-Fingerprints.pdf
http://caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/2002/02-122.htm
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec02/ballistics.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19876-2005Apr1.html

[shadowangel]

Please disregard part of my previous post, for some reason I had it in mind that "Cali's" murder came first. If the LE in SC had the recovered weapon in 1976, it is vey unlikely that it was used in a murder 3 years later! (Sometimes I scare myself...):waitasec:

[Mullins]

No biggie, sounds like something I'd do or probably have done in the past. Sometimes the dates all run together at least for me.

[coco]

...oh, were these kids European do you think?

http://websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gifFRENCH, they were french tourists possibly. This needs to be checked but 99.5% sure of this

[shadowangel]

It is entirely possible...an unshaven female definitely points to a European connection, France most especially (also the lack of undergarments). It has been reported that the male used the name "Jock", or more likely, "Jacques" (sp?). He supposedly made the statement that his father was a doctor in Canda and that he had been disowned. It is certainly possible, in this scenario, that the family was from France. I considered it most likely a French-Canadian connection, but France is certainly a possibility.
Also, keep in mind this was the summer of the Bicentennial...The country basically stopped that summer to celebrate. I'm sure the number of visitors from other countries during that summer increased greatly, as there was something going on in every town and city throughout the country.

[Richard]

Does anyone see similarity between this case and others?

[PonderingThings]

I too think they were foreign tourists visiting the States for the celebrations. Although they may have said they were Canadian, I don't think they were (but that's just a guess on my part).

If the Jacques lead was really a true lead, why didn't LE go to the KOA office and ask to see their registration slips for that time period? KOAs required you to fill out a form saying your name, where you were from, etc.. Anyone could have written anything... but it makes you wonder why they would not have put their real information on the form.

[Mullins]

I do. Either way is a possibility. Keeping in mind that during that time frame many females were "burning bras" and not adhering to prior social norms of feminine behaviors. Otherwise they may have just not been keeping up their normal hygiene due to camping etc.

Does anyone see similarity between this case and others?

[mysteriew]

That is a good point about the KOA registration. It would have had at least the names of the camper that registered, and if they were in a vehicle they usually wanted the license number.
I wonder if there were any abandoned cars found in the area. If it was someone like a trucker- they would have had their truck and the campers vehicle to contend with.
I think the trucker should have been checked out, but I would have also checked out the KOA manager. Reportedly, he was the last to see them alive and he evidently didn't provide LE with a camper registration. He could have committed the murders, thinking that no one would remember the couple. Then later have become afraid that someone would remember, and thus given his version of the story in case someone mentioned them being at the camping area.

[Mullins]

That is an interesting theory MW. It's true that most campgrounds take the name and address of driver, vehicle license #, number of people in party, and such. I wonder if they did check the registration (seems such a logical thing to do) and it didn't lead to anything? If not, makes you wonder who was managing that campground at the time.



That is a good point about the KOA registration. It would have had at least the names of the camper that registered, and if they were in a vehicle they usually wanted the license number.
I wonder if there were any abandoned cars found in the area. If it was someone like a trucker- they would have had their truck and the campers vehicle to contend with.
I think the trucker should have been checked out, but I would have also checked out the KOA manager. Reportedly, he was the last to see them alive and he evidently didn't provide LE with a camper registration. He could have committed the murders, thinking that no one would remember the couple. Then later have become afraid that someone would remember, and thus given his version of the story in case someone mentioned them being at the camping area.

[PonderingThings]

Another possibility is that the campers were put in an "overflow" area, where registration wasn't required. This is usually an ajoining property which is close enough for the campers to use the bathrooms, etc., on the "official" grounds.

In other words, "off the books", discounted, cash. Many campgrounds do this kind of thing when availability is in short supply - like it was in 1976.

[docwho3]

Has anyone looked at blown up versions of the pics from the crimeibrary.com site? It looks as if either the guy's shirt said something other than the coors name as listed or that someone actually wrote Sumpter on the shirt before snapping the pic.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/1-2-John-&-Jane-Doe-crime-s.jpg

[PonderingThings]

Doc I don't see what you are referring to, but the shirt does say Sebring on it - perhaps that's what you are seeing? There is a full color photo of the shirt out there - I've seen it recently, but I went searching and can not locate it again http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/emotbanghead.gif


To everyone, the Doe Network has recently added new sketches for the John and Jane Doe. If you haven't visited in a while perhaps you'd like to take a peek of the new representations of what they look like? ...just letting you know.

[docwho3]

Doc I don't see what you are referring to, but the shirt does say Sebring on it - perhaps that's what you are seeing? . . .I placed a bigger copy of the pic in my sumpter album at
http://photos.yahoo.com/docwho3
You should download it and view it in its actual size. I added the red circle.
As to the Sebring word note that the victem is layin with his front showing and his back is not seen and then read the description of the T-Shirt which says the back of the shirt had the Sebring word on it and not the front. Also the word in the pic does not appear to me to be the word Sebring.
''Coor's America's light beer'' scrawled across the front and ''Camel Challenger G T Sebring 75'' across the back.http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2.html

[PonderingThings]

I was going from memory about the Sebring, so I suppose I am a dunce http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif

Funny, I don't see "Sumpter" but I do see "Syria".

Thanks for sharing the pic - I will be looking for that pic of the shirt again that I saw online.

[docwho3]

I was going from memory about the Sebring, so I suppose I am a dunce http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif

Funny, I don't see "Sumpter" but I do see "Syria".

Thanks for sharing the pic - I will be looking for that pic of the shirt again that I saw online.
I was guessing about it maybe saying Sumpter. I was looking at a very large blowup of the pic and the blurriness made it hard to read but I knew they were in sumpter so I guessed maybe someone wrote on the shirt instead of using a piece of card board or paper. I thought that would be odd for them to do but it was just a wild guess anyway. In any case it sure didn't look like that Coors sentence they have in the description.

[docwho3]

Another question is why was that description given out wrong?

[PonderingThings]

You mean the 75 instead of the 76? They've had lots of time to correct that information and they never have. Perhaps its not wrong, perhaps its what it said.

[docwho3]

You mean the 75 instead of the 76? They've had lots of time to correct that information and they never have. Perhaps its not wrong, perhaps its what it said.No, I meant the shirt in the pic having that totally different wording on its front than the description of the shirt said. To me that is a rather large difference. The difference over 75 versus 76 is not a major differernce but the front of that shirt in the pic is obviously completely different than saying ''Coor's America's light beer'' as the text describes on more than one website.

[PonderingThings]

I searched again for the pic of the shirt and can't find it. I *think* it was on the police site, and its since been updated.

From what I recall the graphic was very strong, but at the same time entwined. I know that effect is not portrayed from the pic on the Crime Library site, but that's what I recall. The shirt was red with white lettering, with black highliting.

In the Crime Library pic the shirt is bunched. It is very possible (and I think very likely) that there is no word there - instead its the bunching in combination with the graphic on the shirt that makes it look like a word.

That's just my opinion Doc, I respect that yours may differ.

[PonderingThings]

The 75 versus the 76 was commented on at another site I remember, although I found no current reference for it either. It was an oddity as the Sebring races had been recently held and 76 T Shirts were plentiful and readily available. Remember this was the year of lots of tourists - vendors were ready to Sell! Sell! Sell!

It raised the questions of:

If the man was a tourist and brought the shirt with him from the previous year, was that the only race he was planning to attend? Or were they race fans who wanted to travel from racetrack to racetrack?

Did the man buy an out of date T Shirt from a vendor and did not notice the year when he bought it?

Was the T Shirt from a clothing donation site? - As in, did any charity worker meet the couple?

There were a few other points, but as I recall the police checked them all out.

Disclaimer: I'm going on memory so I will not swear to the 100% accuracy of the above.... if I did I'd be http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/crazy1.gif . Instead consider it a summary only.

[docwho3]

. . .In the Crime Library pic the shirt is bunched. It is very possible (and I think very likely) that there is no word there - instead its the bunching in combination with the graphic on the shirt that makes it look like a word.

That's just my opinion Doc, I respect that yours may differ.I agree that the shirt bunching is a good possibility. I posted about the way it looked so that the rest of you might also look over the pic and give opinions on it. I could not really tell for sure but I knew that it did not look, to my eyes, as described so before I jump to conclusions I wanted to have others also looking at the shirt pic. Thanks for your input. (I don't have a favorite opinion on it yet.)

[Alice253]

Y'all got me hooked. I've been looking at that shirt, but I'm really having a hard time with it. I have a question, though. They were both shot in the back, chest, and throat. OK, which came first, the shooting in the front (chest and throat), or the shooting in the back? In the crime scene photo, both are laying on their backs...were they found in that position, or turned over? If they were found in that position, it would probably mean that the last two shots were fired to their chests/throats. Of course, that's only if they were killed there. Too many questions and not enough information. :confused:

[Mullins]

Could there have been writing both on the front and back of the shirt?



I was guessing about it maybe saying Sumpter. I was looking at a very large blowup of the pic and the blurriness made it hard to read but I knew they were in sumpter so I guessed maybe someone wrote on the shirt instead of using a piece of card board or paper. I thought that would be odd for them to do but it was just a wild guess anyway. In any case it sure didn't look like that Coors sentence they have in the description.

[PonderingThings]

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1875dfvic.html (http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1875dfvic.html)

Julie Ann Garciacelay
Missing since July 1, 1975 from North Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Classification: Endangered Missing

Vital Statistics

* Date Of Birth: about 1956
* Age at Time of Disappearance: 19 years old
* Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 166cm tall.
* Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Long brown hair, olive complexion, medium build and an American accent.

*************
This American girl went missing a year earlier in Australia. Originally from California she moved to Australia to work. Her blood was found but she never was. She did go missing under suspicious circumstances.

All the stats fit, and her photo looks like the Jane Doe.

A very huge long shot though...

[Marie]

About the unshaven legs - this couple was found in the mid-70's and it wasn't uncommon then for American women to go unshaven (both legs & underarms). I remember several of my female teachers having unshaven legs & arm pits during the 70's, and my aunts who were in their late teens/early 20's during that decade also didn't shave. I think it sounds likely that this couple was not American but wanted to put this information out there.

[Hollow]

This female matches a lot of charactoristics of Jan Cotta missing from New Jersey June 23rd 1973. Her case is listed on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children website.

[Marie]

There is a new article out about these two. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore wants to look deeper into the case, including digging up one of the bodies to get teeth.

Cold Case Mystery: Unidentified Sumter Co. murder victims (http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4952583)

[MaryBeth]

Thanks for posting the update on this case. This is one I try to look up every couple months or so to see if there is anything new. It's going to be 30 years in August since these 2 unidentified people were found. I tried to do some extensive searching about 2 years ago in missing person databases in Canada. Apparently the man told someone at a campground his name was Jacques (?) and that he was the son of a famous doctor in Canada. I narrowed the search to the Quebec area since it is predominantly French-speaking. Of course, I came up with nothing. The Crime Library, that is connected with Court TV, did a story on them a couple years ago and they feature it on their home page every once in a while in case it will jog someone's memory. I think about these 2 people so often. I wish it would get solved soon, at least to even learn their identities.

Thanks again for posting this. Maybe this will get some much-needed renewed coverage with the 30th anniversary approaching!

[LButler]

I think she is more likely to be listed as missing than him - don't really know why I think that. So, I looked for women in several states that her jewelry seems to be more common.

The only thing I found was Lynn Ruth Connes from CA. Missing since May 20, 1976. Here's her link:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/827dfca.html

There is mention of a silver ring with etching. Jane Doe had a 3rd ring that was not pictured.

Also, she was meeting a guy named Jeff who oddly matches the first initial in John Doe's ring?

Maybe this is someone she met and was planning to leave with so she lied to her family.

As to the unshaven legs, I wonder if it looked as though they had never been shaved or just not shaved in a while. And, as posted earlier, this was probably not that uncommon here in the US during the 70's.

[wondering22]

....I tried to do some extensive searching about 2 years ago in missing person databases in Canada. Apparently the man told someone at a campground his name was Jacques (?) and that he was the son of a famous doctor in Canada. I narrowed the search to the Quebec area since it is predominantly French-speaking. Of course, I came up with nothing.



Ontario has recently set up a new missing persons & cold cases website ---- see Posting No.16 in this other thread about helpful "Cold Case" websites:


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259

[MaryBeth]

Ontario has recently set up a new missing persons & cold cases website ---- see Posting No.16 in this other thread about helpful "Cold Case" websites:

Thanks for the link..I will definitely check it out when I have more time.

Here is a link from the Crime Library's story with actual photos of the 2 victims. I was looking at LButler's suggestion about a possible match to Lynn Ruth Connes who went missing from CA in May of 1976. I do see a resemblance but I just don't know...I know there's a link to the Crime Library story a few posts back but this is the page with their pictures from the coroner's photos to compare to Lynn Connes' photo.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6.html

[LButler]

from the coroner. Lynn does not look much like her, I agree, Liz.

He looks VERY french and she looks Russian or German with that wide face.

I don't think they look like sis and bro?

[Hollow]

Just thought I'd post this just in case:

http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/cold_case/post11coldcase1.htm

[lilsister]

I agree that they both have a foreign --European look (whatever that means but I see what your saying). He had a lot of dental work and I know that other unidentifieds have been classified a possibly not being US born and bred due to their dental work being of a different quality.

[lilsister]

And her legs were unshaven--girls from the US usually shave their legs. How sad to see such a young, beautiful couple murdered like that.

[MaryBeth]

from the coroner. Lynn does not look much like her, I agree, Liz.

He looks VERY french and she looks Russian or German with that wide face.

I don't think they look like sis and bro?

He does look French....I'm not sure about her though. Someone from LE in Sumter remarked in one of the articles I read that they thought she was South American maybe?? I don't think they are brother and sister either. But as I mentioned before, any searching I can do on him I have been limiting to the Quebec area since he told someone he was the son of a doctor from Canada, and with the reported first name of Jacques..I think the initials on his ring were JPF...I was looking for a Jacques Philippe or Paul as Quebec is mostly French.

[kylie]

Is there a possiblity that they were from Israel or another part of the Middle East? The "middle east" is actually a very diverse region that encompasses many religions, languages and races..........just a thought...

[lilsister]

Totally there with you....his eyebrows, like mine, are very very thick ...suggesting a Mid-East or in my case dark Irish (you Know Spanish Armada connection). He totally looked Mid-East to me but I did not say it (still poss mexican). Her eye lashes were also very thick but that could be from anywhere I guess....possibly Turkish though? You are great at this!

[MaryBeth]

Is there a possiblity that they were from Israel or another part of the Middle East? The "middle east" is actually a very diverse region that encompasses many religions, languages and races..........just a thought...
I never thought of Israeli or Middle Eastern but it certainly is a plausible thought. I just stayed within the realm of Canada and France because I assumed he was French. But he does look very much like he could have some Middle Eastern features.

[LButler]

kinda looks like John Doe. Missing 1973 from Canada.

http://www.doenetwork.org/

case # 1956dmsk

[pittsburghgirl]

kinda looks like John Doe. Missing 1973 from Canada.

http://www.doenetwork.org/

case # 1956dmsk


He does, but Percival is a bit taller and appears to part his hair on the other side (although it is possible that the photo presentation reverses that, I guess.) I notice that the hair in the photograph appears to be thinner that what is depicted in the police sketch.

Above there was an observation that the woman might be German or Slavic, based on the broad face. To me, she looks Native American, which would explain the jewelry, and also why she might be not appear as missing in typical databases. Native reservations are sovereign nations and have their own police distinct from those of the states in which they are located. There are circumstances where federal law and law enforcement are involved. What about tribal records of missing people?

About the gun: I copied this paragraph from Crime Library:

The man, who has since died, had an alibi: His wife was in a North Carolina*hospital, and witnesses told police he was there visiting her. Investigators, wanting to see for themselves if it were possible for the man to sneak away to Sumter County and speed back to the North Carolina hospital, timed the drive.

So he has what appears to be the gun, according to ballistics. But he has an alibi. Aside from the fact that eyewitnesses are often wrong about exact dates and times, the questions might be: who else had access to the gun? if he stole it, from whom? if he bought it or borrowed it, from whom?

It's not like North Carolina is two thousand miles away, after all.

Just some thoughts.

[bykerladi]

I just read another thread on here where bones were tested for DNA to determine the body's heritage. Couldn't they do the same thing in this case, to find out what their ethnic heritage is? It might held lead to where their family is.Here's the story from the other thread:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3901100.html

[HollywoodBound]

If they have the serial # from his watch I wonder if it can be checked where that watch was sent to be sold...even if it's just the country. So much time has passed now but I wonder if they tried that back when the bodies were found and know but have not disclosed.

[MaryBeth]

I just read another thread on here where bones were tested for DNA to determine the body's heritage. Couldn't they do the same thing in this case, to find out what their ethnic heritage is? It might held lead to where their family is.Here's the story from the other thread:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3901100.html
On the second page of this thread, post #44 it gives a new link from a S. Carolina newspaper that says Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore, who has been working on this case since 1976, now wants to exhume one of the bodies to get a set of teeth. She doesn't say which one or why but maybe it's the guy again because they said he had such expensive dental work done. But that's very interesting about testing the bones to determine heritage. I've never heard of that before!

[MaryBeth]

If they have the serial # from his watch I wonder if it can be checked where that watch was sent to be sold...even if it's just the country. So much time has passed now but I wonder if they tried that back when the bodies were found and know but have not disclosed.
In the Crime Library story on them it says they did check out the serial #, page 3 of the link below. On the last page of the story, the same page that has the coroner's photos, it lists the serial #. About a year and a half ago I actually tried to do research on it but couldn't find anything!

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html

[Richard]

Here is what the Doenetwork link states about the girl's Jewelry:


Jewelry: Three Silver rings that resembled American Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. One piece was a faceted band with red, white and blue stones. Another ring had a oblong black stone. The third was a large, intricate feather scroll band with a jade insert into the curves of the scroll.

Looking at the link, you see the second and third rings, but not the first. The year 1976 was when the country was celebrating the Bicentennial. There was Red, White, and Blue stuff in abundance that year. My guess is that the first ring was something of a Bicentennial nature.

The other two rings seem to be good quality Indian made silver rings. The oblong black stone seems to have some turquoise pieces set into it. The turquoise stones are naturally shaped, but the black oblong stone is very symetrical, which is something of an anomaly in regard to Indian Jewelry, since symetrical stones are not normal. Usually the silver is worked into the natural shape of the stone.

I believe that the third described ring is likely the best piece of Indian Jewelry, and the most unique. It might be the piece which can be linked most easily to the craftsman who made it. I believe that the narrative is incorrect, however. It does not appear to be a Jade stone, but rather a Red Coral stone and a Turquoise.

[Rle7]

Here is what the Doenetwork link states about the girl's Jewelry:

I believe that the third described ring is likely the best piece of Indian Jewelry, and the most unique. It might be the piece which can be linked most easily to the craftsman who made it. I believe that the narrative is incorrect, however. It does not appear to be a Jade stone, but rather a Red Coral stone and a Turquoise.You are correct. That ring is turquoise and red coral. It resembles the one at this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Lot-of-Vintage-Sterling-Turquoise-Coral-Jewelry_W0QQitemZ8946142591QQihZ004QQcategoryZ9850 0QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The ring appears to be Zuni made, a tribe in the southwestern US area. It could be Hopi or Navajo also. I hitchhiked a lot across North America in the late 1970's. Bisbee, Arizona was considered a mecca for this type of jewelry back then, and many fellow travellers stopped there to buy turquoise and socialize with the hip crowd there. Maybe someone from Bisbee sold them this ring?

[MaryBeth]

Yes, it definitely looks like turquoise, not jade. I was thinking too, the guy had some matches from Grant's Truck Stop in his pants pocket. There was a Grant's in New Mexico so maybe they got the jewelry there?? Of course there were other Grant's truck stops back then including Nebraska and Idaho but New Mexico would be another plausible Southwestern state they could have visited...

[Richard]

The 30 year anniversary of this case is approaching: 9 August. Any theories or ideas on it. Keep an eye out for possible anniversary press coverage.

[Hollow]

I really think the Kentucky couple I listed should be at least considered, and they were heading for a truck stop allegedly. I don't understand that site, all the missing persons they have listed on there have no description, and none of them are listed on any of the major missing persons data-bases. Like we're supposed to just know what they looked like.

[KJERVIS]

They both look Spanish to me. Since Spain shares a border with France so it would not be unusual for the man to have a french name, especially if he was from say Catalonia.

[MaryBeth]

Just bumping this case up...today is the 30th anniversary. I checked the Sumter newspaper today but didn't find any new articles. The last I heard, in June I think Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore wanted to exhume the bodies to get a set of teeth from one of them. I haven't heard anything new beyond that though.

[Richard]

Has anyone seen any 30th anniversary articles, or any updates on this case?


Here is a link to a website titled: "Sumter County, SC John and Jane Doe". It features composite drawings of the two unidentified victims.
Link:
http://meyahna.tripod.com/pg5.html

[MaryBeth]

I haven't heard anything..and I check on this almost every day. The last news I heard was in June as mentioned in the post above yours that I put on here on the 30th anniversary. Here is a link to the Sumter County Sheriff cold case page..it has a different sketch of the two.

http://www.sumtersheriff.org/unsolved.htm

There are also other cases on there...a very sad one at the bottom about a man and his teenage son who were murdered in their convenience store in Sumter in 1992 which is still unsolved.

But again, nothing new on the Mystery Couple.

[Mr. E]

This missing man from Sweden resembles the John Doe. Not much to compare other than a physical resemblance.

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/939dmswe.html

[gardenmom]

Just thought I'd post this just in case:

http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/cold_case/post11coldcase1.htm
Did you ever forward this info to the police dept. to see if its a match?

[Becba]

Both were shot in the exact same places-back, chest and throat. That is very odd to me. Anyone check for other unsolveds with similar wounds?

[MaryBeth]

Bumping this case up...

I haven't found anything new on this since last June...I'm just wondering if the Sumter County Coroner ever exhumed the bodies to get the set of teeth they wanted for additional testing.

[LisainWV]

Bumping this case up...

I haven't found anything new on this since last June...I'm just wondering if the Sumter County Coroner ever exhumed the bodies to get the set of teeth they wanted for additional testing.
Would be nice if they would extract some dna and see if they are siblings. Could make a big difference in how to id them. Was he hitchhiking and "met" her, she decided to travel with him...??

You would think that since they appeared to be "well to do" that the ring is probably his own, hence his initials.

[MaryBeth]

Would be nice if they would extract some dna and see if they are siblings. Could make a big difference in how to id them. Was he hitchhiking and "met" her, she decided to travel with him...??

You would think that since they appeared to be "well to do" that the ring is probably his own, hence his initials.
Yes, I wish there would be some news as to whether they exhumed the bodies and were able to get DNA. For some reason, I keep thinking she was either his girlfriend or just a friend. I don't think they were siblings. But I could be wrong. I also can't get it out of my head that he was French Canadian and possibly from Quebec. I know there have been other postings on here as to their ethnicity and some good points have been brought up about what nationality they could have been. But I keep going back to what an employee at a KOA campground in SC said, that he thought he played pool with the male victim and he told him he was the son of a famous doctor from Canada, who disowned him because he gave up his own career in medicine. The witness said he thought his first name was Jock which the SC investigators determined was probably Jacques. I thought then that the initials maybe stood for something like Jacques-Pierre, Jacques-Phillipe, Jacques-Paul?? I could be way off base but that has always been at the back of my mind since first reading about this.

[LisainWV]

I agree that they don't "seem" to be siblings. Surely 2 kids missing would be reported??

[KarlK]

But I keep going back to what an employee at a KOA campground in SC said, that he thought he played pool with the male victim and he told him he was the son of a famous doctor from Canada, who disowned him because he gave up his own career in medicine.

This would explain why the guy appeared wealthier than your average wanderer I guess but it's hard to believe a prominent citizen and/or his relatives would fail to report his son missing even if he had disowned him, or that the gossip media paid no attention to it. Has anyone checked if someone matching his description was reported missing in Canada at the time?

As for the girl she may just have been someone he had met on the road while hitchhiking in which case these would be separate cases, making it all the harder to solve.

[MaryBeth]

I can't imagine someone not reporting their child missing either. But I know that some people can be very proud and stubborn. If he was disowned, his father may well have decided he wasn't going to make the first move, thinking his son would come back begging him to reconsider. No matter how proud or angry his father was though, I would think even by the end of that summer of 1976 he would have started searching for his son. Even if his father washed his hands of the whole matter you would think someone else in his family would start searching for him. And what of the girl's family?? Someone has to be looking for her. The one thing that occurred to me is maybe both families had no idea where these kids went for sure. Maybe they just told them there were going to travel and didn't say exactly where. Or they could have told someone they were going to some of the Western United States and then they decided to go to South Carolina and some of the other Southern States after that and no one knew that. The male victim had matches in his pocket from Grant's Truck Stop and they were located in Idaho, Nebraska and New Mexico, none of which are anywhere near SC. Despite that, with the Doe Network and such, you would think that someone would have looked for them on there or a similar missing persons website. But they may be looking in the missing persons section under their names and not in the unidentified victims section.

About 2 years ago I did try looking on a Canadian missing persons website but, of course, I can't find it now. I'm going to keep looking as time allows. It's just so frustrating to not know for sure where they came from. And it has to be equally frustrating for their relatives and friends who don't know for sure where they went.

:doh:

[bykerladi]

How about this?

http://www.missingchildren.ca/Dispstpg.htm?ID=1&NL=1

[annemc2]

Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

[MaryBeth]

Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

You're absolutely right, I didn't even think of that. It seems to me the guy at the campground would have mentioned it if "Jock" had an accent but you never know. If he had been from Quebec he may have had a French accent perhaps. If he was born and raised there he would learn to speak French but when speaking English he would not have spoken it as if he was from France, with a heavy accent most likely. Many Canadians do have sort of an accent. For instance, words that have an "ou" that we pronounce as sounding like "ow", they say it more like "oa" Like out, would sound like oat. Maybe both of them talked like that and the KOA guy didn't necessarily think that sounded like a true accent. Excellent point though.

bykerladi - that was not the site I found earlier but it's a good site. I have a notion to e-mail them and explain about the missing couple and send the info from Charley Project or Doe Network and the Crime Library article to see if they have any matches in their database. It's worth a try if they can check it out. Thanks.

[KarlK]

Tried to look throught the postings again to see if this had been mentioned: did the guy from the campground who spoke with "Jock" mention if he (or she) had a discernable accent? That, to me, seems HUGE.

The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.

[MaryBeth]

The problem with French-Canadians is that many of them speak English without any discernible accent, or with such a slight one that it sounds more like a regional North American English accent than a French accent. Some have no accent at all, not even a Canadian one (if such a thing exists, many Canadians don't speak any differently than northern US). They also don't have any distinguishing physical features, they just look like regular white folk (given the time of year the bodies were found I'd say the "olive undertone" may have been a suntan). Having lived in the border area in Northern Maine for many years I am quite familiar with French-Canadians and some are still good friends.

However, some do have a typical accent and it's very different from that of people from France, much softer and easier to understand, and it can't be mistaken for any other accent. Anyone living in the Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach area would likely be familiar with it because there are tens of thousands of French Canadians living there, mostly during winter, retirees and younger folks who own businesses in the area, some quite well known because of their implication in local politics or the business community. If the pool player had had such an accent it would have been noticed I'm quite sure, even if the witness wouldn't have been able to identify it. He would have at least noticed that the man had an unusual accent.

You're right, Karl. That's exactly what I was trying to say in the post above yours but you said it much more eloquently. And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.

[KarlK]

And if there was no discernible accent, it makes the theory even more plausible that they, or at least he was from Canada.

By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada? That's also my impression, based on the absence of a discernible accent and also his dental work. Apparently European dentistry can often be distinguished from dental work performed in US/Canada and the coroner's remarks in this case seem to indicate he thought the dental work had been done in North America.

I guess the only factor that goes against these individuals being from North America is the fact they were not reported missing or at least not that we know of. AFAIK the main missing persons databases in both the US and Canada are integrated due to geographical and cultural proximity, therefore someone reported missing in Canada would be listed as missing on US databases as well, and vice versa. The link provided by bykerladi is a good example of such seamless integration.

This particular case has received a lot of attention. If I recall well the first time I read about it was in a national publication (probably Reader's Digest if memory serves) in the late 1970's or early 1980's and since then it has been featured in the electronic media a number of times, enough to be more familiar than usual to most people. Yet despite this publicity, these two still remain Does after 30 years. Not a single serious lead has ever surfaced, it boggles the mind. I'm starting to think only a deathbed confession could ever solve it.

[MaryBeth]

By that I take it you mean that if he was from another country it would likely be Canada?

Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.

[bykerladi]

Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.

[MaryBeth]

Two more thoughts.

1. If, in fact, his parents disowned him, they literally could not care if he lives or dies. Hard to understand, to be sure, but certain societies and/or cultures really see disowning someone as a permanent thing. As in the person no longer exists. Not to mention they wouldn't have contact with him to KNOW he was missing.

2. His parents might no longer be alive. Its possible they waited too long to get over their "pride" and, unfortunately, now its too late.

I agree, in fact that is what I thought all along. His father maybe believed from the day his son was born that he would follow in his footsteps and when he didn't he probably was so angry he literally disowned him. The father's pride and anger may have run so deep that he did consider his disowning him a permanent thing. If the father is alive he may still be waiting for his son to back down and make the first move, as ridiculous as that sounds after nearly 31 years. Unfortunately, it probably happens more than we know, relationships that are shattered forever because of pride and anger, one or the other party refusing to back down and make the first move. I also thought that possibly he was his only son or maybe even his only child which would make him all the more angry at his refusal to pursue a career in medicine. It's very sad.

[KarlK]

Right, there was some discussion on here and also in a couple of the articles that maybe they were European or from South America. I agree they look like they could be from either of those places but I always thought because of his statement to the guy at the KOA Campground, that he was from Canada. And I zeroed in on the Quebec Province because of first name possibly being Jacques, though I guess it could be anywhere in Canada. Maybe she was from Europe or South America; one of the reasons investigators arrived at that possibility was because her legs were unshaven. But I do think he was Canadian and when doing any online searching for him I've only checked missing persons databases in Canada.

Quebec remains a good candidate for the man's home, "Jacques" pronounced with a Quebec accent would indeed sound exactly like "Jock" in English. As for the girl however I agree that her unshaven legs seem to indicate she was neither from Canada nor the US. I remember that at the time the only women who would walk around with visible hairy legs in North America tended to belong to the hippie persuasion and the young woman's clothes and general appearance doesn't point to a hippie lifestyle. I'm no expert but her jewelry evokes Central or South America to me for some reason.

Anyway, it is my impression that there is a strong possibility that these two had not known each other for long (if at all) and that we may be dealing with two missing individuals rather than a missing couple.

Another possibility, but I admit it's a long shot, would be that they were held captive for some time prior to being killed, which also provides an explanation for unshaven legs. But their clean clothes and the fact that the man had obviously had access to shaving gear makes this unlikely.

[azure]

I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly

[LisainWV]

I think she is more likely to be listed as missing than him - don't really know why I think that. So, I looked for women in several states that her jewelry seems to be more common.

The only thing I found was Lynn Ruth Connes from CA. Missing since May 20, 1976. Here's her link:

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/827dfca.html

There is mention of a silver ring with etching. Jane Doe had a 3rd ring that was not pictured.

Also, she was meeting a guy named Jeff who oddly matches the first initial in John Doe's ring?

Maybe this is someone she met and was planning to leave with so she lied to her family.

As to the unshaven legs, I wonder if it looked as though they had never been shaved or just not shaved in a while. And, as posted earlier, this was probably not that uncommon here in the US during the 70's.




This is my earlier post about her (under my old username). I still think she fits fairly well.

Does anyone know if they have checked out any missing people against either one?

the Connes story also reminds me of the recent info about the photographer/serial killer guy. Don't remember the name and no time to look it up at the moment. Anyway, she was supposedly meeting a photographer when she came up missing.??

Here's here link with the .org fixed.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/827dfca.html

Maybe this john doe was a photographer and she decided to take off with him. If he was well to do and had a nice camera, maybe the killer took it. Stretching, I know, but there could be a thousand stories for these two.

[annemc2]

I'm close to the age of the female victim, possibly a bit younger. Last spring I went on a road trip lasting only 10 days. During the trip, my best (male) friend and I camped in National Forests for free, camping without any sort of amenities like showers or electrical hookups. Needless to say, although I am somewhat fanatical about my appearance, my legs went unshaven.

I'm inclined to think that this was the situation for the female victim as well. She'd obviously been on the road for a bit, since they were most likely spotted in Florida. If they were camping and traveling, shaving her legs was probably impractical if not completely pointless. This makes a lot more sense than her being from another country, IMO. Especially with the women's lib movement making it okay not to shave.


Kelly

Hmmm, that's another one of those instances where the details really do mean a lot. Did she simply have stubble from being on the road, or was the hair on her legs long and soft, without signs of regular shaving? I know it would take quite awhile for my leg hair to grow out - after it gets to a certain point it gets kinda gross to me and I have to shave it! But your point is valid - even if the hair on her legs was long it could have been from her spending lots of time on the road. But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).

[KarlK]

But for LE to use it in the description, it might have been something out of the ordinary (ie, really long hair).

That was my impression because they didn't say it appeared her legs had not been shaved for a while, just that they were unshaven. But one must keep in mind that a coroner's report doesn't always make that kind of distinction so without further details it's difficult to assess the importance of this detail. Personally I just thought it was odd because she was wearing a skirt; I would imagine that if she hadn't shaved simply because she was on a camping trip she would have worn pants. But I'm a guy so I could be totally off the mark about this. I remember that back in the 1970's (I was a teen then) many young women weren't as self-conscious about such details as they are now.

[Sable]

Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:xGIl2NukiCwJ:www.hankstruckpictures .com/df_cf.htm+%22Grant%27s%22+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.

[MaryBeth]

Okay, I searched ebay for "turquoise coral ring" and came up with 201 items. I found several that looked quite similar to jane doe's ring. I'm going to look into it a little deeper, but it seems as if it is predominately Navajo indians that make rings which fit with the style of ring worn by the jane doe. I found the same thing when I searched for the black ring (which, by the way, is onyx).

Based on that I looked up Navajo indians, particularly states with the highest population. Wikipedia lists New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona as having the largest populations.

New Mexico was mentioned as one of the state's that Grant's Truck Stop can be found in. On to googling Grant's Truck Stop....

I found a picture of the Grant's truck stop in Mountain Home Idaho. The picture is here... http://www.mhhs67.org/

I found another website that mentions a Grant's Truck Stop... in Lupton Arizona. (which makes me wonder, was the Arizona location accidently left out, or was it a typo?) Link here... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:xGIl2NukiCwJ:www.hankstruckpictures .com/df_cf.htm+%22Grant%27s%22+truck+stop&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


I looked up the stone in the ring John Doe was wearing. A linde star stone is acctually a star sapphire. Sapphire is the birthstone for September.

Another avenue I thought of, is what if his dad thinks he is still alive and is looking for him after all these years? We could look for reunion type websites, and see if we can find a possible relative.

Sable, good work on the Grant's Truck Stop photos. I couldn't find any photos for them when I Googled them, but that was about 2 years ago. Possibly the girl was from out west and met John Doe in New Mexico, Utah or Arizona and joined him on his travels from there??? I don't know though, it sort of struck me that she was with him from the beginning and when they were out west she loved the jewelry and bought the rings. It said she was wearing 3 rings that resembled American-Indian or Mexican handmade jewelry. They don't look all that worn in the photograph on the Doe Network, they look pretty new to me. Even though the black ring is onyx it still looks similar to Indian jewelry with the 3 turquoise pieces on it.

I also went back to the missing Canadians website bykerladi provided in post #81 to search again but came up empty. Although it says Missing Children, there are a few people who were adults when they went missing that are listed on there.

Unfortunately, LisainWV is right in post #92 when she says there could be a thousand stories for these two.

[MaryBeth]

Here is a new article about the mystery couple. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore was finally successful in getting them exhumed for bone and dental samples. I sure hope with the DNA they can soon identify them!

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770612004

[kwatson696]

Thank You for that link liz I hope something will come out of this, I live in S.C. and ride by that very area when visiting my daughter......

[LisainWV]

Great post Liz....
I'm curious to see if they are related or whatever they can find out.
Thanks!!

[MaryBeth]

Here is another, slightly more in-depth article. There is video of the exhumation along with it. It will be interesting to see if they are actually related or not. I don't think they are but you never know. Just getting their identities from the DNA would be wonderful!

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=50572

[Marie]

I don't think they're related either. Two siblings missing would just be too obvious- somebody would be looking for them. I can't wait either to learn about the DNA results, too bad it could take years.

[Sleuthster]

what about this guy?

Chin and nose are simular in my opinion and his last name is french.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1259dmmi.html

[Rhett]

I have to disagree. The last article posted had a picture of them in death and I do think they could be related. What about children of mobsters and maybe it was a mob related hit. Maybe they are from Sicily. MOO

[anthrobones]

That was a thought I had--Italian?

[Sleuthster]

I have to disagree. The last article posted had a picture of them in death and I do think they could be related. What about children of mobsters and maybe it was a mob related hit. Maybe they are from Sicily. MOO

I do not believe that they are of Sicilian decent. I am a Sicilian American and they just don't apear to be italian or sicilian, he difinatly does not have the italian bulbous nose (think Tony Soprano nose :rolleyes: ).

I believe he is French Canadian. His ring has the initials JPF and he told the RV park guy that his name was Jock or Jacques and he was from Canada and the son of a doctor. I think he is telling the truth.

The girl does not match him. I think she is someone he met while hitchhiking around the country. In the 1970's we had just ended Vietnam and there where still hippies wandering around the country. He could have met her anywhere and hooked up with her and they decided to travel. Look at the jewery, tourquois indian jewelry was very common at flea markets in the 70's and 80's. It would be one thing if she had one ring, maybe two. She had 3 rings and no fancy bling like the guy did. This tells me she did not come from money like him. Hippy women did not shave their legs either, this was common knowledge. They believed in living naturally, or something to that nature.

Also, it is difficult to tell what someone's skin tone is and facial features are from morgue photos. You have to remember that rigermortis (hope I spelt that right :waitasec: ) can cause darkening of the skin especially if they where on their stomachs when they deceased. also it may also cause the face to look more bloated. It also depends on how long it was before they found them.

Also, the Coor's light shirt, I don't know any one italian that would be caught dead (no pun intended) in a shirt advertising light beer.

I think they crossed someone. This does not look like a robbery motive and was not a sex crime, possibly over drugs. The are many different forms of organized crime through history, drug cartel, moonshiners, good ole boys that grow pot by back roads. They could have come across any of those. They where making a statement and that is why they did not take the jewelry.

of course this is based on my opinion and :twocents: 2 cents.

[MaryBeth]

what about this guy?

Chin and nose are simular in my opinion and his last name is french.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1259dmmi.html


I don't think that's him. Perry Corlew's disappearance was being investigated as a possible match with an unidentified suicide victim in Louisana. I don't know whatever happened with that possible matchup. Here a link to the previous discussion on websleuths about the unidentified male and possibly being linked to Corlew.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32202&highlight=Perry+Corlew


I agree with what you said in your second post. I do think the Mystery Couple male is French Canadian. I also think the JPF is Jacques something and when I do any searches on missing people in Canada, I zero in on Quebec, since it is predominantly French speaking. I just don't know where she comes in though, whether she was someone he knew and they took off together or if he met her in his travels across the USA.

It was very interesting watching the video on the exhumation at the link I posted on the previous page. I hope they can get results soon from the DNA. Poor Sumter County Coroner, Verna Moore, has been working this case since August of 1976, and for her sake too, I wish they could at least identify them.

[KT Can]

http://charleyproject.org/cases/m/mansfield_michael.html

just a thought.....

[MaryBeth]

Bumping up case..

Today is the 31st anniversary of their murder.

I haven't found anything new since the bodies were exhumed for DNA 2 months ago. There is nothing about the results of the DNA yet either but that may take quite a while.

[bowler]

Their bodies were exhumed in June in hopes of extracting usable teeth and bone samples.


http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/ITNEWS01/108090148

[LisainWV]

Good article, bowler, thanks for posting it.

Maybe DNA will Id them eventually!!

[s_finch]

Also, the Coor's light shirt, I don't know any one italian that would be caught dead (no pun intended) in a shirt advertising light beer.

I think they crossed someone. This does not look like a robbery motive and was not a sex crime, possibly over drugs. The are many different forms of organized crime through history, drug cartel, moonshiners, good ole boys that grow pot by back roads. They could have come across any of those. They where making a statement and that is why they did not take the jewelry.

of course this is based on my opinion and :twocents: 2 cents.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Coors wasn't being transported to the South in the 70's so I doubt the shirt came from the south. Obviously this couple was traveling and their travels had taken them west to Coors country.

Good ole' southern boys seldom shoot people for 1) finding their pot patch (and it's not like the patches are so easy to find that two wandering travelers would stumble upon one anyway) and 2) I've lived in SC all my life and the only time I'm aware of execution type slayings occurring (as these two were shot) happens when you cross a gang, mafia/mobsters, serious drug runners---good ole boys don't go for that professional hit stuff, it's too upclose and messy. And yes, moonshiners do exist here l and did in the 70s but no legal agency gives a darn about moonshiners and so stumbling upon a still wouldn't get you killed, trust me. I don't think they were killed by locals. I think they were executed by someone driving through SC who thought this would make the perfect dumping ground. Now how they met up with the perp, I have no clue. Maybe they accepted a ride from a serial murderer, maybe they tried to outsmart a drug dealer and lost---weren't they found close to I-95? I-95 is a major drug smuggling corridor, from FL all the way up the east coast.

[bykerladi]

So its possible they weren't even killed in South Carolina, right? That makes things MUCH more difficult.

[MaryBeth]

I've been meaning to post this for a while but I cannot find the newspaper articles where I read it.

Regarding where they were shot and also regarding if the trucker who discovered their bodies could have done it:

I read 2 similar news articles from South Carolina papers about 3 years ago. From what I can remember the articles stated that shortly after midnight, someone who lived in the vicinity of Locklair Road where the victims were found, was awakened when he heard a car come down the Locklair Road at a rather high speed and screech to a halt. He heard car doors slamming and almost immediately after that heard gunshots. He then heard car doors being shut and the screech of tires again as the car took off.

I know I read that twice in 2 different SC papers. I bookmarked one of them and when I went back to re-read it again, I couldn't bring the page back up; it said the web page was no longer available.

Locklair Road is a frontage, dirt road located beween Interstate 95 and S.C. 341. The area is apparently secluded and there aren't many houses around but one person who lived nearby gave that information to the police.

I have been looking in NewspaperArchives.com off and on for the last week or so trying to find that article again. I can't find it anywhere but I'm going to keep looking because I know I read that. I'm wondering why that info wasn't in The Item, the Sumter, SC Newspaper (or maybe that was one of the papers I read it in) or in the Crime Library story but I know I read it in 2 different publications so I will keep looking. If that were true, it at least clears up 2 points we have been wondering about, where exactly they were shot and that the trucker who found them did did not have anything to do with it. I never did think the truck driver was involved but if I hadn't read what the witness who lived nearby had said, the truck driver being involved was a possibility.

I also can't figure out why whoever heard these gunshots didn't call authorities. I think the article said he was sleeping and he was awakened by the commotion and wasn't thinking too clearly or else just thought someone was shooting off a gun and didn't realize people had actually been shot. I think I would have called authorities just the same had I heard gunshots. With the number of times these kids were shot, surely he didn't think he was hearing a car backfiring!

Anway, I will continue to look for the article.

[MaryBeth]

Well, I wasn't able to find the exact article but there aren't many newspapers from SC at NewspaperArchives.com. I found one from the Florence Morning News from August 11, 1976 that says they thought they were shot right there and that nearby residents heard gunshots between midnight and 1:00 a.m.

Bodies Located Monday
Are Still Unidentified
SUMTER (AP)-


Sumter authorities believe an unidentified man and woman whose bodies were found Monday on a dirt road near the Florence County line probably were out of state travelers. "We've sent teletypes everywhere," Kumler County Sheriff I. Byrd Parnell said, adding that they had received inquiries from as far away as Rhode Island. He also said that bulletins describing the two have been sent to other states and missing persons reports are being checked. The two were found about 6:20 a.m. near 1-95 and S.C. 141 by a man on his way to work. The dead man was about six feet tall, weighed 150 to 160 pounds and had brown shoulder-length hair. The woman was about 5-5, weighed about 110 pounds and had reddish brown hair. Both are believed to have been in their early 20s. "This girl was very young and very pretty. He was clean shaven. They were well groomed. They weren't the hippie-type. They looked like the All-American boy and girl travelers," Parnell said, "It looks like they were executed right there."


Sumter County Coroner J. Bennie Raffield said the bodies were about four or five feet apart and that both were lying on their backs. The two are believed to have been shot between midnight Sunday and 1 a.m. Monday, the coroner said. Area residents reported hearing gunshots from the area about that time.


I think they probably were shot right where they were found.

[Richard]

I wonder if these two might have witnessed a murder or other crime and were "eliminated" to keep them from identifying the perpetrators. Does anyone know of any Roberies or Murders in that general area just prior to their murder?

[phenolred]

I wonder if these two might have witnessed a murder or other crime and were "eliminated" to keep them from identifying the perpetrators. Does anyone know of any Roberies or Murders in that general area just prior to their murder?
This is a very good theory....Seems like a professional hit....they could be witnesses OR I was thinking maybe they could be a mobsters kids or somebody the mob had it out for's kids and they killed the kids as a warning to shut their mouths or they would be next, and sometimes people would rather hurt those you love as a way to hurt you,

[rmf]

I agree with the French-Canadian angle. I am very familiar with that culture and have spent a lot of time in France as well. Many French nationals travel to Canada (particularly Quebec) so it is possible the young lady was of French or European origin (the unshaven legs are also another clue, IMO). Also, there are people with French names/backgrounds all over Canada. Many of them are concentrated in Quebec, but you will find men named Jacques in almost any province in Canada. I think that this young man and his companion most definitely came from Canada- what I don't understand is why no one seems to be looking for them?

[Rhett]

A few posts back someone posted that Coors was not being brought into the South in the 1970's. Not legally it wasn't but it was being brought in illegally. My father was a trucker and though I don't know of him bringing it in I did see some that was brought in illegally by another trucker. I heard talk about Coors and it being illegal made it a big deal and people wanted it. Extra money was made for truckers to run the stuff into the South. I also remember people hiding it under their beds and such so that it was not out in plain view, just in case.

[MaryBeth]

I agree with the French-Canadian angle. I am very familiar with that culture and have spent a lot of time in France as well. Many French nationals travel to Canada (particularly Quebec) so it is possible the young lady was of French or European origin (the unshaven legs are also another clue, IMO). Also, there are people with French names/backgrounds all over Canada. Many of them are concentrated in Quebec, but you will find men named Jacques in almost any province in Canada. I think that this young man and his companion most definitely came from Canada- what I don't understand is why no one seems to be looking for them?

I often wonder the same thing myself, how can NO ONE be searching for them? I mentioned in an earlier post that apparently Jacques told the guy at the KOA Campground he had a falling out with his father, who was a prominent doctor in Canada, because he gave up his medicine career. I thought maybe his father was very stubborn and refused to make the first move, thinking Jacques may have just left to start a new life elsewhere. But that could only be true for a short time period, I would think. What about his mother or siblings, if he has any? If not, surely he has other family members such as cousins or even friends who would search. And the same for the girl. There just has to be someone looking for these 2. Every couple months or so I stay up very late on weekends and try to search old Canadian newspapers and missing person websites looking for anyone who might resemble them and I just get so frustrated thinking that possibly no one ever reported them missing in the first place!

[Angie4b1g]

Did the guy from the campsite mention either of them having a french (or any other for that matter) accent?

[rmf]

Did the guy from the campsite mention either of them having a french (or any other for that matter) accent?

Good question!? On another note, I've known many Québécois that spoke perfect and unaccented English, along with French... so it could've been hard to tell. It's also interesting to note there are also Cajuns/Creole that speak with an interesting accent in that part of the country so if an accent was present, it may have gone unnoticed...

[Angie4b1g]

https://www.ebiz.police.nsw.gov.au/missingpersonsenquiry/displayIndividualDetails.do?photoRefNum=19264

That got me excited for a second until I saw that this guy was about 9" too short.

[Angie4b1g]

Just thinking outloud... if the guy had any kind of accent, he maybe could have been saying his name was "Jack", as well.

[MaryBeth]

Just thinking outloud... if the guy had any kind of accent, he maybe could have been saying his name was "Jack", as well.

I do remember reading in one of the many articles I have read about this case that the guy at KOA did detect an accent of some sort. I've been searching to see if I could find the article but I can't. The closest I can come to it is the description on the Doe Network where the KOA guy said his name was "Jock" and authorities determined it was probably "Jacques". So he probably did have an accent if the guy heard "Jock" when he said his name. The trouble with some of these articles are that they are not accessible anymore. I bookmarked 2 or 3 of them a couple years ago and couldn't open them anymore when I tried to go back and re-read them. I know it's on another post on here somewhere but I provided the Doe Network listing for him.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

[Angie4b1g]

That makes me like this Jacques Bellchambers even more. I wonder if there could be a typo in the height.

Here's his Doe Network page http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2217dmnsw.html

It says he went missing with 4 other people, maybe one of them is the Jane Doe. I can't find any information on those other 4 people anywhere. Sigh.

[kwatson696]

I found this also Angie, maybe it will say something about the others he was traveling with.

http://www.supernerd.com.au/~glittercot/NSWMaleSydneyCold.html


LOL I know, it says "supernerd" but it really does have missing people from that area.

[Angie4b1g]

I checked that site, too. No further mention of the Williams other than in Jacques' story. :(

[MaryBeth]

That makes me like this Jacques Bellchambers even more. I wonder if there could be a typo in the height.

Here's his Doe Network page http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2217dmnsw.html

It says he went missing with 4 other people, maybe one of them is the Jane Doe. I can't find any information on those other 4 people anywhere. Sigh.

There is a strong resemblance. It said in the Crime Library story that the ring that was found on John Doe had the initials JPF so I was thinking maybe Jacques-Paul or Jacques-Phillippe or something like that. He also tried to pawn an expensive ring to the KOA guy for some cash though so it probably was the ring with the initials on it. I think that was the only ring he had on him. Maybe the ring belonged to someone else though and he was just trying to get some money for it. At least we're fairly certain of the "Jacques" part of his name.

[Beyond Belief]

So far, the only Grants Truck Stop tht I found was in Boise Idaho. I found an old postcard for sale on ebay for it.

[Angie4b1g]

Got this response from Sumter Co. Sheriff's Dept regarding Jacques:

Angie,
Thank you for your interest in this case. I have compared the photograph of “Jacques” to the photograph of our unknown male. Sorry to say, that “Jacques” is not our unknown male victim. The DNA analysis of our victims will be conducted in the near future by the FBI. The DNA codes will be submitted to all DNA Data Bases worldwide to determine if a relative of our victims is in the Data Bases. Again, thank you for your interest.


Don't know how he's so sure just by comparing the photographs, but what else can I say? :)

I'd imagine they probably have the morgue photos, as well as the reconstructions that we're seeing.

[MaryBeth]

Got this response from Sumter Co. Sheriff's Dept regarding Jacques:



Don't know how he's so sure just by comparing the photographs, but what else can I say? :)

I'd imagine they probably have the morgue photos, as well as the reconstructions that we're seeing.


I don't know either how they could tell so quickly that it wasn't a match but thanks for e-mailing them.

[Meyahna]

Have you tried finding the father rather than the son? I've tried myself without luck but I'm thinking a prominent Dr might have worked with universities, given lectures or some pages could mention his work. I've been looking at University pages but didn't find any Dr F. in Canada that could be a possibility. I think pride might have prevented this man from looking for his son and also, really a father who disavows his son might just think he no longer wants to talk to him most of all is he was stupborn like his father who disavowed him just for not wanting to study medicine.

[LisainWV]

The thought has recently occurred to me that maybe this was not his ring (maybe stolen) but he told the guy his name was Jacques to account for the engraving. If so, who knows who he is?

[Meyahna]

I find the story rather credible, usually I'm rather full of doubts with this kind of stories, like the Princess Doe one, I just don't picture her being a prostitute I think the guy and the woman totally made up the story (this skirt is just so childish, you would have had to beat me with a baseball bat to force to go out with such a skirt when I was her age and still I wasn't so much a hard girl) but this one I just don't see anything making me have doubts about it. If he had stolen it he could have invented any other story, that it was his grand father's or whatever also it surely fit his finger and it's rare that a stolen ring happens to fit. I'm curious about the DNA test, to see if he and the woman were related.

[MaryBeth]

Have you tried finding the father rather than the son? I've tried myself without luck but I'm thinking a prominent Dr might have worked with universities, given lectures or some pages could mention his work. I've been looking at University pages but didn't find any Dr F. in Canada that could be a possibility. I think pride might have prevented this man from looking for his son and also, really a father who disavows his son might just think he no longer wants to talk to him most of all is he was stupborn like his father who disavowed him just for not wanting to study medicine.

Yes, I did think of looking for the father. I'm not the greatest researcher in the world but I did try Googling physicians from Canada looking mostly in the Quebec area, etc. I tried a number of ways. I didn't check Universities though. That is a good idea. Of course, he probably is retired by now but I thought about looking up hospitals throughout Quebec and looking through the staff. I also firmly believe pride kept him from searching. It sounds like they parted on not very good terms so the father may not have even been speaking to his son. But surely there are other people in his family, his mom or siblings or even friends who would search for him. The same goes for the girl. I just can't believe NO ONE is looking for these two.

[MaryBeth]

The thought has recently occurred to me that maybe this was not his ring (maybe stolen) but he told the guy his name was Jacques to account for the engraving. If so, who knows who he is?

That thought crossed my mind because of the fact that he tried to pawn it to the KOA guy for some obviously much-needed cash. But with the initial J and his first name being Jacques, it probably was his.

Someone PM'd me about robbery being the motive. I can't believe that because they left their jewelry on them. They probably took their wallets but no doubt that was so they couldn't be identified. I'm sure they didn't have a lot of cash on them because Jacques tried to sell the ring. Another thing that was mentioned was the fact that the guy had the matches on him from the truck stop but they described them on the Doe Network as nonsmokers. I'm sure he had them as a souvenir or something but the thought occurred to me about pot. Maybe they tried to score some dope from someone and the drug deal went horribly wrong?

[Meyahna]

Could it be that before or after trying to pawn the ring, the UID pawned sthg else and he tried to get it back? I think it probably has to do with money. They looked like a clean couple, I don't see them involved in bad stuff. And a serial killer, I dk, usually when SK kill couples they rape the woman. Taking the man's ring could have been very risky see that it was rather identifiable.

I think for the father even if he's old he could be listed somewhere as an honorary member or on University history pages. I think the best would be that a Canadian newspapers runs a story about them.

[rmf]

Hi there,

I am a newly regged member but have been lurking here for a long time. I've been studying this case and had a few thoughts about it:

1. I wonder if this young man's father was a DENTIST, rather than an MD?

2. I wonder if this was a drug deal that went bad? Those were the days when people hooked up randomly to party and "score", especially when traveling around. Things could go badly very easy, since people hitchhiking were probably too trusting. (Maybe I've watched "Easy Rider" one too many times!?) Since it sounds like they needed money, it's also possible they could have pulled a minor drug buying scam ("give me some $$ while I go get that (insert drug name here) from my friend and deliver it to you later..." -type of thing) and they scammed the wrong person who came looking for them.

3. Has the FRANCE connection ever been explored by authorities there? I am of French descent both via Quebec and also France. They look very French-featured to me or even possibly South American. The reason I ask about France is because I am a passable French speaker and am going to Paris to see relatives in about two months. If it already hasn't been done, a dossier could be given to the National Police there to compare to missing persons in their databases. If someone would like for me to do that, please PM me and let me know.

4. Th