Kathleen Savio Death

[Indy Gal]

Discuss the death of KS here

[Indy Gal]

http://www.amw.com/pdf/coronerdeathreport.pdf

http://www.amw.com/pdf/peter001.PDF

http://www.amw.com/pdf/petersonletter.pdf

http://www.amw.com/pdf/petersonemergency.pdf

http://www.amw.com/pdf/petersoncoroner.pdf

[JanetElaine]

Okay so now that we have this whole forum, I'm going to ask and hopefully you'll all forgive me if it's been asked and answered before: I've read the coroner's report but don't quite understand it, is there really enough evidence in there to support a drowning? What about all the other things that were listed, like marks on ankles etc.?

[Tom'sGirl]

http://i4.tinypic.com/6lobyq8.jpg

[mysteriew]

I may have found a partial answer to the question about the blanching.
It is about halfway down this page, under the heading livor mortis.

"(postmortem lividity) is a reddish, purplish-blue discoloration of the skin due to settling of blood, by gravity, in the vessels of the dependent areas of the body. In dependant areas pressed against a hard surface, the vessels are mechanically compressed by the pressure and blood cannot settle in them. This gives these areas a pale coloration"

"Livor mortis usually becomes apparent within a half hour of death. In individuals dying of cardiac failure, livor mortis may actually begin to develop prior to death."

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9337/deathtime.html

So if this site is correct, someone/something was putting pressure on those areas during the time that lividity was being established.

There is a period of time after death that livor can shift if the body position is moved.

[Taximom]

I may have found a partial answer to the question about the blanching.
It is about halfway down this page, under the heading livor mortis.

So if this site is correct, someone/something was putting pressure on those areas during the time that lividity was being established.

There is a period of time after death that livor can shift if the body position is moved.

Was she found sitting up? I can't remember. I wondered earlier if she hadn't been laying on her left side at one point. If she indeed had hand or fingerprints on her upper body, it could have been her own hand squished under her body. Not sure how that explains markings on her legs though. I wish we had a drawing like we did for Michelle Young. (Although it was sad to see at first.)

[mysteriew]

I believe the autopsy said the lividity was found on the anterior (front) of her body. Which would indicate that she was face down.

The part that has me puzzled is the way the coroner worded it as "fingerprint" blanching.

medial= pertaining to the middle

[Taximom]

Is Drew right-handed? He would inflict injuries mostly to her left side if he is right-handed.

Injuries on her arms and hands could be defensive wounds.

Dorsum medically means back or posterior side (her finger).

[Taximom]

I thought from the autopsy report that the purple contusions in her mid shins would probably be consistent with a strong hit for the baton. I could be wrong .........


You are probably right. I was thinking of the fingerprint blanching left on her body in different areas. I have to go back and look where those were now! lol My pc is SO slow...argh.

[STEADFAST]

I believe the autopsy said the lividity was found on the anterior (front) of her body. Which would indicate that she was face down.

The part that has me puzzled is the way the coroner worded it as "fingerprint" blanching.

medial= pertaining to the middle

Taking what mysteriew posted: "So if this site is correct, someone/something was putting pressure on those areas during the time that lividity was being established," I took it to mean that pale finger marks (prints) were made on her body soon after she died. In other words, someone picked her up and moved her.

[STEADFAST]

Here are links to the coroner's report:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825590.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825590.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825592.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825592.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825593.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825593.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825594.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825594.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825595.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825595.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825596.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825596.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825597.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825597.gif) __________________

[mysteriew]

Taking what mysteriew posted: "So if this site is correct, someone/something was putting pressure on those areas during the time that lividity was being established," I took it to mean that pale finger marks (prints) were made on her body soon after she died. In other words, someone picked her up and moved her.

And after a period of time after death (the time period varies) lividity becomes fixed and won't move even if position is changed. So it doesn't sound like something they did when they moved her to the body bag.

[STEADFAST]

And after a period of time after death (the time period varies) lividity becomes fixed and won't move even if position is changed. So it doesn't sound like something they did when they moved her to the body bag.

Right. So, gee, I wonder who could have left fingerprint blanching on her?

[i.b.nora]

Right. So, gee, I wonder who could have left fingerprint blanching on her?
I think it means that the fingers while she was alive were pressed hard against something. -OR- it might mean that the fingers were wrinkled, like what happens when you have your hands in water for awhile.

[Taximom]

Right. So, gee, I wonder who could have left fingerprint blanching on her?

Hmmmmm....:waitasec:

[Taximom]

I can't see the report right now, but does anyone remember if it was just her left fingers that were wrinkled?

[STEADFAST]

You know, my thing about the blanching could be wrong. I just read that in order to determine the time of death, the examiner will press the area discolored by pooled blood inside the body with his finger. If it blanches (turns lighter), then the blood is not clotted yet. But then the discoloration returns. If pushing with his finger doesn't cause blanching, he will try something harder, like forceps. Again, the discoloration will return.

So, by fingerprint blanching, he may have meant that when he performed the test, she had not been dead long enough for him to have to use anything harder than a finger to produce blanching. Or, since bruised areas look similar to pooled blood areas but do not blanch, he may have been discovering which discolorations were due to bruises and which to natural processes, and he just wanted to disclose that he had used his finger.

[mysteriew]

Transcription from the autopsy

The body is cold to the touch. Rigor mortis is absent. Postmortem lividity is purple and fixed over the anterior surfaces of the body. There is fingerprint blanching noted over the right medial breast and blanching over the areola and central portion of the left breast, the left thign, and calf.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825593.gif
And yes, it only mentions the wrinkling of the fingers and palmer surfaces of the left hand.

[SuziQ]

Transcription from the autopsy


And yes, it only mentions the wrinkling of the fingers and palmer surfaces of the left hand.

To me that sounds like it would have happened being picked up and put into the tub.

[mysteriew]

You know, my thing about the blanching could be wrong. I just read that in order to determine the time of death, the examiner will press the area discolored by pooled blood inside the body with his finger. If it blanches (turns lighter), then the blood is not clotted yet. But then the discoloration returns. If pushing with his finger doesn't cause blanching, he will try something harder, like forceps. Again, the discoloration will return.

So, by fingerprint blanching, he may have meant that when he performed the test, she had not been dead long enough for him to have to use anything harder than a finger to produce blanching. Or, since bruised areas look similar to pooled blood areas but do not blanch, he may have been discovering which discolorations were due to bruises and which to natural processes, and he just wanted to disclose that he had used his finger.

shh...(you know we are doing this discussion wrong, this is the searcdh for SP thread)

But the impression I am getting (and I could be wrong) is that once lividity is fixed, it doesn't move. I would think that means that it wouldn't blanch once it is fixed. Am I wrong on that?

[STEADFAST]

To me that sounds like it would have happened being picked up and put into the tub.

I agree, despite my above post. Those areas sound just like where *someone* would have grasped her body to get it into the tub.

[SuziQ]

I agree, despite my above post. Those areas sound just like where *someone* would have grasped her body to get it into the tub.

So how long till lividity sets in? Let's say you kill someone, think about what to do, come up with a plan....stage the body and it leaves fingerprint blanching?

[SuziQ]

Copy and pasted from the SP thread:

Originally Posted by STEADFAST http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1788729#post1788729)
I agree, despite my above post. Those areas sound just like where *someone* would have grasped her body to get it into the tub.


So how long till lividity sets in? Let's say you kill someone, think about what to do, come up with a plan....stage the body and it leaves fingerprint blanching

[SuziQ]

Or caused by someone taking her out of the tub?

[STEADFAST]

By mysteriew:But the impression I am getting (and I could be wrong) is that once lividity is fixed, it doesn't move. I would think that means that it wouldn't blanch once it is fixed. Am I wrong on that?

I know. He said it was fixed on her front side. (That's anterior, right?) Then he pointed out areas of blanching. AND he called one "blanching" and the other "fingerprint blanching."

I've got to go to bed! I'm trying to discuss something that I don't understand at all.

[mysteriew]

From the link I posted on the other thread, lividity time can vary- depending on when the body starts to decompose.

(from the CSI tv shows, decomp is affected by temperature in the home)

[SuziQ]

Okay so now that we have this whole forum, I'm going to ask and hopefully you'll all forgive me if it's been asked and answered before: I've read the coroner's report but don't quite understand it, is there really enough evidence in there to support a drowning? What about all the other things that were listed, like marks on ankles etc.?

Sorry Janet, I just saw your question. There was water in her sinuses and moderate edema of her lungs, which means she had water in her lungs.

[STEADFAST]

Or caused by someone taking her out of the tub?

I guess it could be either, if the marks were caused by someone lifting her. If they took her out of the tub soon enough, I don't see how anyone would know which it was.

[mysteriew]

By mysteriew:

I know. He said it was fixed on her front side. (That's anterior, right?) Then he pointed out areas of blanching. AND he called one "blanching" and the other "fingerprint blanching."

I've got to go to bed! I'm trying to discuss something that I don't understand at all.


Ok, if she was found on her front (yes, anterior) she could have been positioned more to one side than the other. Thus putting more pressure on one breast than the other, thus one breast could have had blanching (areola) and the other not, I think. Which is consistant with the blanching on the left thigh. But blanching on the calf? What caused that?

To play devils advocate, I wonder if anything was found under her body that could have caused the "fingerprint blanching?"

One other thing that puzzles me. Only one hand was wrinkled. The left hand- maybe from being under water. The right hand wasn't wrinkled. If under the body, would that have kept it from being wrinkled?

[mysteriew]

Sorry Janet, I just saw your question. There was water in her sinuses and moderate edema of her lungs, which means she had water in her lungs.


The foam cone at her nose also indicates drowning.

[STEADFAST]

The foam cone at her nose also indicates drowning.

So she had bruises and contusions, and she drowned, and she was found face down in a bathtub from which the water had drained out, but not with the correct blood trails for blood to have drained with the water? Is that right?

[mysteriew]

So she had bruises and contusions, and she drowned, and she was found face down in a bathtub from which the water had drained out, but not with the correct blood trails for blood to have drained with the water? Is that right?

That is pretty much what I think.

[STEADFAST]

That is pretty much what I think.

Well, I just don't see how that could happen to a person alone in a bathtub. Why, just the whole idea of drowning face down doesn't make sense. Even if somebody fell forward and hit her head, wouldn't she end up sort of folded upwards along the front wall of the tub and not with her head down in the water, unless she was about four and a half feet tall? Was the blood on the front part of her hair? If not, how could she hit her head on the back or side and then pitch over forwards?

On the other hand, why would someone place her face down in the tub if it wouldn't make sense --- wait, I just thought of something. A murderer would have to place her face down if blood had already started pooling on her front side before he moved her to the tub.

[chicoliving]

I think the AR mentioned the 1" laceration at the occipital/parietal areas os the skull.

Here's a link that shows the dif bones of the skull and a brief explanation.

http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/anatomy/cranium.jsp

[STEADFAST]

I think the AR mentioned the 1" laceration at the occipital/parietal areas os the skull.

Here's a link that shows the dif bones of the skull and a brief explanation.

http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/anatomy/cranium.jsp

So somewhere on the lowish back part?

Does anyone know what position she was found in? I mean, I've read "face down," but what about her legs and arms and the rest of her body?

I'm also confused about the circumstances of her being found. Did Drew call some person or people to check on her? Or did he call that one guy but then a relative also happened to come by to check?

[mysteriew]

I think the AR mentioned the 1" laceration at the occipital/parietal areas os the skull.

Here's a link that shows the dif bones of the skull and a brief explanation.

http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/anatomy/cranium.jsp

From what I am reading, occipital means the bone in the back of the head, the parietal is the bones to the side of the head. So the laceration would have been on the left side, toward the rear of the head.

[chicoliving]

So somewhere on the lowish back part?

Does anyone know what position she was found in? I mean, I've read "face down," but what about her legs and arms and the rest of her body?

I'm also confused about the circumstances of her being found. Did Drew call some person or people to check on her? Or did he call that one guy but then a relative also happened to come by to check?

My recollection of the guy who was first or one of the first on scene said that she was slouched forward...all the way forward with chest to knees or legs.

[Leila]

A question.............according to news reports Kathleen's body is to be exhumed soon, possibly today.

Once the body is exhumed, how long would it normally take for the autopsy to be done and the results known and reported? In this particular case, I'm assuming that toxicology reports won't be an issue as the original autopsy report is negative on any alcohol or drugs in her system. The autopsy seems to be focused on the manner of death.

[STEADFAST]

My recollection of the guy who was first or one of the first on scene said that she was slouched forward...all the way forward with chest to knees or legs.

I wonder what was going through the coroner's jury's minds when they ruled that it wasn't murder. I guess they must not have had to come up with a plausible theory of how she ended up that way accidentally?:waitasec:

[Taximom]

I'd sure like to hear the testimony presented to that jury. I don't think I would have been comfortable saying she drowned "accidentally".

[JanetElaine]

Thanks all for the answers (directly and indirectly by discussing this further). I'm going back to reading now unless I have a really bright idea that nobody else had yet, or a burning question.

I really do hope that if the new autopsy proves murder, they'll still be able to figure out and prove who did it (keeping it neutral)....

[cheko1]

I'd sure like to hear the testimony presented to that jury. I don't think I would have been comfortable saying she drowned "accidentally".


I'd also like to hear the testimony Taximom....
With all the bruising on her body I don't see where a person could get that beat up by a fall in a bath tub.

The low back / the back of the head / then the purple contusions on both her shin bones? Makes no sense to me......:waitasec:

[Mygirlsadie]

Once they perform another autopsy on her will they be able to find out anything really? I mean it's been a few years now... I hope and pray more then anything else right now that this women right here gets the justice she deserves she was put through hell to the very end.

[nanandjim]

I'd also like to hear the testimony Taximom....
With all the bruising on her body I don't see where a person could get that beat up by a fall in a bath tub.

The low back / the back of the head / then the purple contusions on both her shin bones? Makes no sense to me......:waitasec:
The irony will be that Drew should have left all of the blood in the bathtub. Then, his defense could have been that she got all the bruises from trying to get up and slipping on her own blood, you know, like the defense that Michael Peterson used with his wife, Kathleen. (I think that was her name, too.) Of course, it didn't work for Michael Peterson. So, I would hope that it wouldn't work for Drew Peterson.

[rccook555]

Let's not forget they decided the trauma to the back of her head was not the type to render her unconscious. I think that was one of the main issues of the exhumation of the body.

[SuziQ]

Let's not forget they decided the trauma to the back of her head was not the type to render her unconscious. I think that was one of the main issues of the exhumation of the body.

That and the abrasions are not consistent with falling in a smooth surface of a bathtub.

[calidreamin]

I'd also like to hear the testimony Taximom....
With all the bruising on her body I don't see where a person could get that beat up by a fall in a bath tub.

The low back / the back of the head / then the purple contusions on both her shin bones? Makes no sense to me......:waitasec:

None to me either. Also, I have been thinking about all the blood in the bathtub. If the water did drain slowely out of the tub then wouldn't the blood have been diluted and alot of it washed down the drain with the water?

[Indy Gal]

Any news on the exumation(?) ???

[rccook555]

None to me either. Also, I have been thinking about all the blood in the bathtub. If the water did drain slowely out of the tub then wouldn't the blood have been diluted and alot of it washed down the drain with the water?


I was wondering the same thing myself. Along with the wrinkling of her left hand. Her hand had to have been in water for some time for it to wrinkle.

[calidreamin]

Any news on the exumation(?) ???

I heard on the news this morning it probably wouldn't happen today because it's veterans day.

[calidreamin]

I was wondering the same thing myself. Along with the wrinkling of her left hand. Her hand had to have been in water for some time for it to wrinkle.
Yes her hand would have had to be in water a while to wrinkle. The blood just makes no sense to me at all.

[SuziQ]

I'm bumping up this post so new people coming in can view the autopsy. Do we have Taximoms word doc? Word doc is great because we can copy and paste from it.

Here are links to the coroner's report:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825590.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825590.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825592.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825592.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825593.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825593.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825594.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825594.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825595.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825595.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825596.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825596.gif)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...1194825597.gif (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1194825597.gif) __________________

[Taximom]

I'm bumping up this post so new people coming in can view the autopsy. Do we have Taximoms word doc? Word doc is great because we can copy and paste from it.

I still have my word doc, but that's what I sent to Steadfast. I think it's still a "picture" in the Word doc. I haven't actually "converted" it but will try again later.

Kids are home for Veteran's Day! :truce:

[SuziQ]

Body Of Drew Peterson's Third Wife To Be Exhumed

A spokesman for the Will County State's Attorney's Office isn't saying when the exhumation will occur.

Imbedded in the below linked article, is a picture of Kathleens tent covered grave. It's very sad to see that.

http://www.nbc5.com/family/14570464/detail.html?dl=mainclick#

[mysteriew]

Dang it. That means media is hanging around waiting for the exhumation. I was so hoping that though they might make mention of the day of exhumation that they wouldn't be taking pictures and etc.

[SuziQ]

I'm hoping the reason there is only an air shot is because LE has the cemetary closed off. I wonder if they can halt flights over the area when the exhumation happens.

Isn't that picture the saddest thing? It really tugged at my heartstrings.

[Squishified]

I'm sure this has already been discussed but when Ms Savio "drowned" what was the explanation back then for why the tub was empty??

[calidreamin]

Dang it. That means media is hanging around waiting for the exhumation. I was so hoping that though they might make mention of the day of exhumation that they wouldn't be taking pictures and etc.

I feel the same way mysteriew. Although I know how important it is to exhume her I hope it doesn't turn into a media circus. Her family has already been through enough. So so sad. I just hope this time she gets the justice she deserves!

[mysteriew]

I'm sure this has already been discussed but when Ms Savio "drowned" what was the explanation back then for why the tub was empty??

Police back then thought that the water in the tub may have leaked out through the stopper.

[SuziQ]

I'm sure this has already been discussed but when Ms Savio "drowned" what was the explanation back then for why the tub was empty??

That the water had slowly drained out.

[Squishified]

That the water had slowly drained out.

Thank you, SuziQ (that rhymes!)

[Tom'sGirl]

[quote=SuziQ;1789534]I'm hoping the reason there is only an air shot is because LE has the cemetary closed off. I wonder if they can halt flights over the area when the exhumation happens.


Doubtful, it's not a Nat'l Security case. The covering is not only for confidentiality, but due to the weather.

[SuziQ]

I feel the same way mysteriew. Although I know how important it is to exhume her I hope it doesn't turn into a media circus. Her family has already been through enough. So so sad. I just hope this time she gets the justice she deserves!

I wonder if her kids know about this. The last I heard they are with Savio family members. Poor kids.

[Taximom]

I'm hoping the reason there is only an air shot is because LE has the cemetary closed off. I wonder if they can halt flights over the area when the exhumation happens.

Isn't that picture the saddest thing? It really tugged at my heartstrings.

How sad to close the cemetary off on the day we celebrate Veteran's Day. I hope all loved ones are able to visit today despite what is happening there locally.

[SuziQ]

[quote]


Doubtful, it's not a Nat'l Security case. The covering is not only for confidentiality, but due to the weather.

There goes my wishful thinking. I hope the weather is too windy or something for flying that day.

[Tom'sGirl]

I wonder if her kids know about this. The last I heard they are with Savio family members. Poor kids.

Yes, poor kids. At ages 12 and 15 they probably have been told, or have heard it on T.V.

[dee10134]

Hey guys,

Check out this link: http://www.nbc5.com/family/14570464/detail.html?dl=mainclick#

There's a tent over Kathleen Savio's gravesite. I wonder if they're exhuming her today?

[calidreamin]

Yes, poor kids. At ages 12 and 15 they probably have been told, or have heard it on T.V.

Yes I am sure at those ages they have heard about it, such a shame.

[SuziQ]

Yes, poor kids. At ages 12 and 15 they probably have been told, or have heard it on T.V.

I pray that they are spared as many gory details as possible. This whole case is the stuff of horror movies. And they have had to and still get to live in it.

[calidreamin]

I feel so bad for those 2 boys, not only did they live with years of their father abusing their mother, they lose their mom and now Stacey is gone too. That is alot of trauma for two kids to live with and I have a feeling it is only going to get worse.

[Leila]

Since yesterday was actually Veterans Day, hopefully families wishing to visit the graves of family veterans, did so over the weekend and weren't planning on visiting today.

[Tom'sGirl]

Since yesterday was actually Veterans Day, hopefully families wishing to visit the graves of family veterans, did so over the weekend and weren't planning on visiting today.


Nothing I've read confirms the Cemetery is closed today. I think that is just speculation at this point due to the covering over the grave site.

Veteran's day was officially yesterday, but observed by many today. I find it doubtful that they would be doing the exhumation today, but you never know.

ETA: I just spoke with Madeline at the Queen of Heaven Cemetery (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&GSln=savio&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=16&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=22766240&CRid=107602&) and the gates are open for visitation today and have been opened since 8:30 a.m.

[dee10134]

Find-A-Grave (www.findagrave.com) Page for Kathleen Savio's burial:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=savio&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=16&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=22766240&

[justbetweenus]

Police back then thought that the water in the tub may have leaked out through the stopper.

I wonder if while someone was holding her head under water while fighting for her life with her right hand, she used the left hand to try and pull the plug to drain the water, but was only able to a little before dying. Hence the reason for the water draining slowly, and the left hand being wrinkled from water. This might also answer to why Drew alledgedly waited outside the coroners for the autopsy report. When they found her body, with no water in the tub he would be afraid that maybe she died from the head wound, messing up his fall and drowning plan.

Also didn't Baden say on Greta that the autopsy reports show that she did try to breathe. I've read the report but don't understand a lot of medical terms.

[mysteriew]

I wonder if while someone was holding her head under water while fighting for her life with her right hand, she used the left hand to try and pull the plug to drain the water, but was only able to a little before dying. Hence the reason for the water draining slowly, and the left hand being wrinkled from water. This might also answer to why Drew alledgedly waited outside the coroners for the autopsy report. When they found her body, with no water in the tub he would be afraid that maybe she died from the head wound, messing up his fall and drowning plan.

Also didn't Baden say on Greta that the autopsy reports show that she did try to breathe. I've read the report but don't understand a lot of medical terms.

She had water in her sinuses and lungs, that shows she was alive and trying to breathe but instead of air, she was breathing water.

[justbetweenus]

She had water in her sinuses and lungs, that shows she was alive and trying to breathe but instead of air, she was breathing water.

Ahhhh makes sense to me now, thanks mysteriew. you're so smart.;)

[mysteriew]

Ahhhh makes sense to me now, thanks mysteriew. you're so smart.;)

lol, not smart. I just understand some of the medical terminology. That helps a bunch.

[englishleigh]

Does anyone else think Kathleen and Stacy resembled one another? Fox News just showed the photo of Kathleen close-up and there is a striking resemblance to me. Same type smile, big dark eyes....same facial shape.

[JanetElaine]

That the water had slowly drained out.

Wonder if they ever filled that tub to check this theory?

[rccook555]

I wonder if while someone was holding her head under water while fighting for her life with her right hand, she used the left hand to try and pull the plug to drain the water, but was only able to a little before dying. Hence the reason for the water draining slowly, and the left hand being wrinkled from water. This might also answer to why Drew alledgedly waited outside the coroners for the autopsy report. When they found her body, with no water in the tub he would be afraid that maybe she died from the head wound, messing up his fall and drowning plan.

Also didn't Baden say on Greta that the autopsy reports show that she did try to breathe. I've read the report but don't understand a lot of medical terms.

That does make alot of sense but it still doesnt explain her hair being soaked in blood and blood still in the bathtub... you would think that would have washed away in tub and alot of it washed out of her hair.

[Indy Gal]

Question if lividity was on the front and the steve guy said when he found her her hair was coving her face, wouldnt that mean she was face up when found???

[mysteriew]

Question if lividity was on the front and the steve guy said when he found her her hair was coving her face, wouldnt that mean she was face up when found???

Lividity was on the front. But when lying face down, the head naturally turns to the side- it gets pushed that way by the nose.

[rccook555]

Just an after thought... he could have just held her face under a very small amount of water in the tub, thus her hair still being soaked in blood but it doesnt explain away the blood still in the tub itself. Blood will not flow after someone is deceased correct?
Ok i think its plausable she was hit then put into the tub, a small amount of water was placed into the tub (just a few inches) enough to stick her face into, maybe at that point he moved her to "stage" the scene and he could have hit the stopper thus draining the water. The wrinkling of the left hand... not all water drains out of the tub, it seems like there is always some left over that ends up being wiped out or dries on its own, that topped with the possibility that her left hand could have been underneath her trapped with a small amount of water, i think that could have been enough to cause the wrinkle of the left hand and that also adds to the theory she was on her left side thus causing the blanching to the left side too.

[justbetweenus]

Just an after thought... he could have just held her face under a very small amount of water in the tub, thus her hair still being soaked in blood but it doesnt explain away the blood still in the tub itself. Blood will not flow after someone is deceased correct?
Ok i think its plausable she was hit then put into the tub, a small amount of water was placed into the tub (just a few inches) enough to stick her face into, maybe at that point he moved her to "stage" the scene and he could have hit the stopper thus draining the water. The wrinkling of the left hand... not all water drains out of the tub, it seems like there is always some left over that ends up being wiped out or dries on its own, that topped with the possibility that her left hand could have been underneath her trapped with a small amount of water, i think that could have been enough to cause the wrinkle of the left hand and that also adds to the theory she was on her left side thus causing the blanching to the left side too.

That's what I've been thinking too rccook....the water level not being very deep. I think I read somewhere that a certain part of the head will bleed profusively even after death. I'm thinking there was something said about this during the Michelle Young discussion? Could be wrong though.

[Indy Gal]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1783370&postcount=89

[SuziQ]

Per the Greta/Ric audio....Click on the blue audio wave box:

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2007/11/12/gretacast-listen-to-what-sgt-petersons-friend-ric-mims-has-to-say/

When Kathleen passed away, Drew and his oldest son, Eric, had a big falling out because Eric didn't agree with accidental drowning.

ETA: Ric didn't know Eric existed, other people told Ric that when Kathleen died, Eric moved out of Drews house because of her death.

[SeekingJana]

Hi, all,
This is my first post. I joined to mostly discuss the case of missing mom, Stacy Peterson, and also the suspicious death of Kathleen Savio.

In reading and reviewing all the things which DP has said related to Kathleen's drowning, the part that would seem to be extremely important was his assertion that he had his and Kathleen's children with him that weekend. If this has any truth at all to it, wouldn't these boys know if their dad left them during the weekend in question?

It appears from the autopsy report that Kathleen probably put up a fight. There is suspicion that the death scene was staged. All of this takes time. Where were the children?
This keeps bothering me.

I hope this makes sense and I look forward to learning more about this forum.
Thanks.

Maria





Like many of you, my life has been touched by a relative who is missing.
Her name is Jana Mann Witt and although I never knew her well, she is a second cousin. Her page is here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M1/19/20061:07:46PM'

[mssheila]

Hi, all,
This is my first post. I joined to mostly discuss the case of missing mom, Stacy Peterson, and also the suspicious death of Kathleen Savio.

In reading and reviewing all the things which DP has said related to Kathleen's drowning, the part that would seem to be extremely important was his assertion that he had his and Kathleen's children with him that weekend. If this has any truth at all to it, wouldn't these boys know if their dad left them during the weekend in question?

It appears from the autopsy report that Kathleen probably put up a fight. There is suspicion that the death scene was staged. All of this takes time. Where were the children?
This keeps bothering me.

I hope this makes sense and I look forward to learning more about this forum.
Thanks.

Maria





Like many of you, my life has been touched by a relative who is missing.
Her name is Jana Mann Witt and although I never knew her well, she is a second cousin. Her page is here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M1/19/20061:07:46PM'


Great questions, SeekingJana. Welcome to Websleuths, thanks for joining us. I've not been involved in the Kathleen Savio autopsy discussions, but this is one aspect of her drowning that bothers me as well. I would like to expand on your questions with a couple of my own. How old were ALL the children at the time of Kathleens death? Also, if the oldest son was so upset that he moved out shortly after she died, I wonder if he'll talk after DP is in jail? Or would that make him an accomplice after the fact, if he knows more than he told police?

There was a link early on that said that one of DP's children would not talk to the media out of FEAR of his father. I wonder if this is the same son?

[Indy Gal]

WELCOME SJ, if you have any questions or need any help here feel free to private message me anytime!! Look forward to your input.

[SeekingJana]

Great questions, SeekingJana. Welcome to Websleuths, thanks for joining us. I've not been involved in the Kathleen Savio autopsy discussions, but this is one aspect of her drowning that bothers me as well. I would like to expand on your questions with a couple of my own. How old were ALL the children at the time of Kathleens death? Also, if the oldest son was so upset that he moved out shortly after she died, I wonder if he'll talk after DP is in jail? Or would that make him an accomplice after the fact, if he knows more than he told police?

There was a link early on that said that one of DP's children would not talk to the media out of FEAR of his father. I wonder if this is the same son?

Thank you for the welcome!
Here is the link to a photo in the photo section here showing both Drew and Stacy's two children and Kathleen and Drew's two children on a cruise last year. I would say the boys are around 8-13 years old when the photo was taken.
http://i15.tinypic.com/6xqtv0o.jpg

[SeekingJana]

WELCOME SJ, if you have any questions or need any help here feel free to private message me anytime!! Look forward to your input.

Thank you very much, Indy Gal. I hope to learn more in a hurry. :)

[mssheila]

I believe there are 2 more older boys (I think they're boys). I thought he had a total of 6 kids. Two from wife nbr 1. Two from Kathleen Savio. Two from Stacy.

[Indy Gal]

I believe there are 2 more older boys (I think they're boys). I thought he had a total of 6 kids. Two from wife nbr 1. Two from Kathleen Savio. Two from Stacy.I know for fact per that ric confo that he has at least one older boy who was 13 when KS died. How do we find this out?? BTW makes him 17 now...

[Tom'sGirl]

Thank you for the welcome!
Here is the link to a photo in the photo section here showing both Drew and Stacy's two children and Kathleen and Drew's two children on a cruise last year. I would say the boys are around 8-13 years old when the photo was taken.
http://i15.tinypic.com/6xqtv0o.jpg

That was a photo from last year's Cruise (posted in photo link). The boys are now 12 and 15.

[Tom'sGirl]

I believe there are 2 more older boys (I think they're boys). I thought he had a total of 6 kids. Two from wife nbr 1. Two from Kathleen Savio. Two from Stacy.

You're right mssheila. His two adult children are from wife #1. One son is the one who took care of some of the children for a time during this past two weeks.

Sons, Kris and Tom are from Kathleen, wife #3.

The of course there are the two little ones, 2 & 4 yrs. by Stacy.

[Indy Gal]

You're right mssheila. His two adult children are from wife #1. One son is the one who took care of some of the children for a time during this past two weeks.

Sons, Kris and Tom are from Kathleen, wife #3.

The of course there are the two little ones, 2 & 4 yrs. by Stacy.Thanks TG!!

[Tom'sGirl]

Thanks TG!!

YW as always!

[Indy Gal]

YW as always!
Seriously what would I or most here do without you, You are so awesome!!:blowkiss:

[Tom'sGirl]

Seriously what would I or most here do without you, You are so awesome!!:blowkiss:

LOL, don't know about that, just take a lot of notes, have too good of a memory, and read all over the place..................have 5 windows open now :blushing:

[mssheila]

You're right mssheila. His two adult children are from wife #1. One son is the one who took care of some of the children for a time during this past two weeks.

Sons, Kris and Tom are from Kathleen, wife #3.

The of course there are the two little ones, 2 & 4 yrs. by Stacy.

Does anyone know how old his adult children are? I wonder if they were around on the weekend that Kathleen died.

[truecrime]

The boys names from first wife #1, was Steve and Eric.
Eric had a falling out with his dad DP and left after wife #3 Kathleen died do to (?). I believe I heard this from Greta's call with Ric today 11-12-07.

[SeekingJana]

Referring back to this article http://www.nbc5.com/family/14455029/detail.html?dl=mainclick

Per this article ( and others), Drew's ALIBI for going to Kathleen's house was that he was returning their two sons after a weekend visit. This would be the two who are 12 and 15 now. (Thanks for supplying their ages!!)
My question is not about the adult sons from a marriage earlier than that to Kathleen. My question about his alibi is specific to the sons he was returning home to Kathleen at the end of the weekend visit.
IMHO, Drew was involved in his former wife's death. It took some period of time to subdue her, kill her, and do after-crime cleanup and staging.

My question is: Wouldn't there be a period of time when Drew was absent from his sons?
I think they were old enough at the time to remember what their dad did and said that weekend, if anything was unusual. Where did they stay, or who looked after them during the time that Kathleen was killed, if our suspicions about Drew are correct? I wonder if Stacy babysat the boys while Drew murdered Kathleen? Surely they would be able to give ISP helpful info.

[Indy Gal]

The boys names from first wife #1, was Steve and Eric.
Eric had a falling out with his dad DP and left after wife #3 Kathleen died do to (?). I believe I heard this from Greta's call with Ric today 11-12-07.
I heard too!! Was his age 13 at the time or did i get that wrong?

[Indy Gal]

SJ IIRC DP became a suspect AFTER they spoke with the children, so yes I think he was away from them and they told LE something to that effect.

[Tom'sGirl]

Does anyone know how old his adult children are? I wonder if they were around on the weekend that Kathleen died.

I'm not positive, but think one is 26, and one older, but again..........not positve. He married Carol back in the late 70's I think.

[SeekingJana]

SJ IIRC DP became a suspect AFTER they spoke with the children, so yes I think he was away from them and they told LE something to that effect.

Well, I feel stupid now. I had no clue that the boys were the reason that Drew is now a suspect in Kathleen's death. How could I have missed that?
Their memories of that weekend are crucial, and is one of the things which has been bugging me the most.

[Indy Gal]

Well, I feel stupid now. I had no clue that the boys were the reason that Drew is now a suspect in Kathleen's death. How could I have missed that?
Their memories of that weekend are crucial, and is one of the things which has been bugging me the most.DONT ever feel stupid here, thats how it goes. Most of the time I am wrong, but I swear I heard it somewhere....

[truecrime]

Greta also mentioned late 20's for boys ages. I haven't heard or read anywhere that the boy's from wife #1 are the reason he is being investigated for wife #3. Greta just happened to mention the older boys to Ric today during their conversation.

[Tom'sGirl]

Greta also mentioned late 20's for boys ages.
Thank you for remembering that truecrime, I heard but but not sure of exact ages in their 20's.

quote=truecrime;I haven't heard or read anywhere that the boy's from wife #1 are the reason he is being investigated for wife #3. Greta just happened to mention the older boys to Ric today during their conversation.

Somehow I think the oldest children are getting confused TC in the conversation posts with the the children from Kathleen who are 12 and 15.

[Taximom]

Well, I feel stupid now. I had no clue that the boys were the reason that Drew is now a suspect in Kathleen's death. How could I have missed that?
Their memories of that weekend are crucial, and is one of the things which has been bugging me the most.

Yeah, don't feel stupid. :blowkiss: Especially with this case. I wouldn't want to draw this family tree for a zillion dollars!

Welcome!

[cheko1]

I read that DP's oldest son..........is a cop & his wife is a FBI agent.
Did anyone else read that? Or else I read it on Greta's Blog.

[Tom'sGirl]

I read that DP's oldest son..........is a cop & his wife is a FBI agent.
Did anyone else read that? Or else I read it on Greta's Blog.

Yes I did, and I believe it it that son who came for the two older kids at one point as one had to be in school.........did you hear/read that also?

Then I read/heard later that the boys may have been staying with a Savio family member.

What an maze of relations :waitasec:

[Taximom]

cheko, I know I've read that many times here, but wouldn't have a media link or anything to prove it.

[SuziQ]

I will try to find a transcript for Greta's show tonight. I don't have cable and I didn't watch it. But according to comments on Gretablog, Kathleen was found on her side but sitting up. Her head was down, hair in her face. Dr Baden made the point that lividity showed she had been lying on her stomach for at least 6 hours before being moved to the position in the tub.

Holy cow people! We thought she was kneeling face down or something, because of what the autopsy said about lividity. There is just no way, none, that Kathleens case was merely overlooked. That was NOT a suspicious or undedermined death to present to a Coroner's jury. It should have been ruled homocide the day of Kathleens autopsy. I'm going to go as far to say, someone, somehow rigged the final results.

[cheko1]

Yes I did, and I believe it it that son who came for the two older kids at one point as one had to be in school.........did you hear/read that also?

Then I read/heard later that the boys may have been staying with a Savio family member.

What an maze of relations :waitasec:

Yes Tom'sGirl.....I did read that too.

So many people involved its hard to remember it all & keep it correct!

[cheko1]

Also tonight Dr Baden was questioning Steve....about when he found Kathleen.

Here’s what Steve said about KS position in the tub:

“Head bent forward with hair draped over face, lying on side, sitting up but on her side.”
We'll have to remember this for later........

[STEADFAST]

Also tonight Dr Baden was questioning Steve....about when he found Kathleen.

Here’s what Steve said about KS position in the tub:

“Head bent forward with hair draped over face, lying on side, sitting up but on her side.”
We'll have to remember this for later........

Such an unnatural position for drowning, I would think.

[cheko1]

So it seems we're supposed to believe that Kathleen fell so hard she slashed her head open....landed sitting up on her side & drowned.......

How coould she of drowned if she were sitting up????

[cheko1]

Such an unnatural position for drowning, I would think.

I agree 100% ........if she were sitting up on her side how could she of drownerd?

[justbetweenus]

So it seems we're supposed to believe that Kathleen fell so hard she slashed her head open....landed sitting up on her side & drowned.......

How coould she of drowned if she were sitting up????

EXACTLY! I totally agree.

[SuziQ]

You guys, read post 114

[SuziQ]

The whole point the States attorney was making at the presser was Kathleen didn't drown in the tub. And Dr. Baden confirmed that. Lividity was on the front of her body.

[Tom'sGirl]

The whole point the States attorney was making at the presser was Kathleen didn't drown in the tub. And Dr. Baden confirmed that. Lividity was on the front of her body.

Unless another lie was told, and someone sat her up upon finding her.

[SuziQ]

she had been lying on her stomach for at least 6 hours before being moved to the position in the tub

[SuziQ]

Lividity was fixed over the anterior surface of her body. Anterior means front.

[STEADFAST]

she had been lying on her stomach for at least 6 hours before being moved to the position in the tub

Six hours, plus however long she was in the tub. I saw the show. He said she died some time in the afternoon. What time was she found?

[Taximom]

I will try to find a transcript for Greta's show tonight. I don't have cable and I didn't watch it. But according to comments on Gretablog, Kathleen was found on her side but sitting up. Her head was down, hair in her face. Dr Baden made the point that lividity showed she had been lying on her stomach for at least 6 hours before being moved to the position in the tub.

Holy cow people! We thought she was kneeling face down or something, because of what the autopsy said about lividity. There is just no way, none, that Kathleens case was merely overlooked. That was NOT a suspicious or undedermined death to present to a Coroner's jury. It should have been ruled homocide the day of Kathleens autopsy. I'm going to go as far to say, someone, somehow rigged the final results.


I think you are right.

[calidreamin]

I will try to find a transcript for Greta's show tonight. I don't have cable and I didn't watch it. But according to comments on Gretablog, Kathleen was found on her side but sitting up. Her head was down, hair in her face. Dr Baden made the point that lividity showed she had been lying on her stomach for at least 6 hours before being moved to the position in the tub.

Holy cow people! We thought she was kneeling face down or something, because of what the autopsy said about lividity. There is just no way, none, that Kathleens case was merely overlooked. That was NOT a suspicious or undedermined death to present to a Coroner's jury. It should have been ruled homocide the day of Kathleens autopsy. I'm going to go as far to say, someone, somehow rigged the final results.

This was a complete cover up and whoever helped DP get away with this should be criminaly charged as well.

[Indy Gal]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311156,00.html


Authorities in a Chicago suburb exhumed a body in the investigation of a local woman's disappearance.
Investigators dug up the body of Kathleen Savio Tuesday morning in their continuing investigation of Stacy Peterson’s disappearance. Her husband, Drew Peterson, has been named a suspect in the case.

[SeriouslySearching]

It was sad to see them exhume her body yet powerful. It is like she is returning for justice for not only herself...but for Stacey, too. She will finally get the peace she lacked the first time she was buried. I hope her family hangs onto this and it makes it easier for them to rebury her when this part is over.

[SuziQ]

Savio's sister talks to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/13/intv.exhume.savio.sister.cnn

[SuziQ]

Detectives need to get a clue

http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/647052,CST-EDT-edit13a.article

(snip)
So now, prosecutors say there are "strong indications" that Kathleen Savio's bathtub death in 2004 was a homicide. Somehow all those clues -- the dry tub, the $1-million life insurance policy, the numerous abuse complaints to police, the deathly fears Kathleen confided to her family -- didn't raise eyebrows until Kathleen's successor, Stacy Peterson, went missing two weeks ago. Duh. Even a novice ''CSI'' viewer could have scoped that out.

and

If there was no doubt in Glasgow's mind that her death wasn't accidental, as he said last week, perhaps other Will County cases need to be re-investigated. Even if those cases didn't make it onto Fox News or CNN.

[mysteriew]

Cyril Wecht giving his opinion on what they will find during the exhumation. He says they won't find anything- "unless someone feels that certain things were deliberately missed," (evidently he isn't aware that no xrays were taken- according to recent info anyway.)
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/647486,CST-NWS-exhume13.article

[mysteriew]

In chat last night we came up with a possible scenario.

Ok, Drew was maybe working that day
He stops by Kathys while on duty. They fight and he uses his nightstick. The fight ends up in the bathroom. He starts drowning Kathy in the toilet. With her left hand she is pushing in the toilet but cannot raise her head. Before long she drowns. Maybe the weight of her body causes her to slip down, but her hand remains in the toilet.

Drew leaves to go back to work or otherwise establish an alibi. He goes back later and cleans up the signs of a struggle and any blood. He knows the body will show drowning so he puts her in the tub.

He goes back home gets the kids and takes them to the house and gets the neighbor.

That explains the lividity, the fact that only one hand was wrinkled, and the undiluted blood.

[SuziQ]

Lisa, daughter of Wife#2 speaks to Greta. Go to link and video is on the right side under Fox News Video:

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[cheko1]

Drew Peterson the walls are closing in on you!
Do you think you could save the taxpayers of Ill some money & confess to your dasterdly deeds?

Your a killer & need stopped!!!!

[SuziQ]

In chat last night we came up with a possible scenario.

Ok, Drew was maybe working that day
He stops by Kathys while on duty. They fight and he uses his nightstick. Drags her across carpet? The fight ends up in the bathroom. He starts drowning Kathy in the toilet. With her left hand she is pushing in the toilet but cannot raise her head. Before long she drowns. Maybe the weight of her body causes her to slip down, but her hand remains in the toilet.

Drew leaves to go back to work or otherwise establish an alibi. He goes back later and cleans up the signs of a struggle and any blood. He knows the body will show drowning so he puts her in the tub. Sitting up, leaning to the side, head down, hair in face.

He goes back home gets the kids and takes them to the house and gets the neighbor.

That explains the lividity, the fact that only one hand was wrinkled, and the undiluted blood.

Perfect! I added the above in red. You can keep it in there or not. You decide.

[SuziQ]

Gory alert!

For her body to be moved to the tub and placed in the position she was found. Rigor must have passed. Or there are broken bones or joints that weren't reported in the autopsy. Would that be correct thinking?

[STEADFAST]

he puts her in the tub. Sitting up, leaning to the side, head down, hair in face. . . . Perfect! I added the above in red. You can keep it in there or not. You decide.

Sounds like he just plopped her down in the tub, like maybe he was in a hurry with that part. Do you think maybe he had at first planned to pretend to discover a "mysterious murder" but thought better of it later and decided an accident would be a safer scenario for him?

[SuziQ]

Sounds like he just plopped her down in the tub, like maybe he was in a hurry with that part. Do you think maybe he had at first planned to pretend to discover a "mysterious murder" but thought better of it later and decided an accident would be a safer scenario for him?

You are so correct about Drew changing his plan. This is what I think happened. If Drew plopped her in the tub it would have to have been after lividity set in and and after rigor had passed. That's a long time. 24 or more hours? He's thinking a family member or a friend is going to discover her body. No one does. Time runs out when he has to return the boys. So he has to make a change of plans. Wah la, he stages the drowning, then gathers up witnesses for the "discovery" of the "accidental drowning".

[SeriouslySearching]

Very interesting theory and quite plausible. I don't think he left and came back tho. I think he hurriedly set up the scene and forgot about the blood not being diluted by the water on the tub. He probably forgot to lay out a towel, robe, or other essentials to show she was readying herself to soak in the tub, too. These things will be further proof this was no accident. (Who was with the children while he was doing all of this? One of the oldest kids? A neighbor?)

[mysteriew]

Gory alert!

For her body to be moved to the tub and placed in the position she was found. Rigor must have passed. Or there are broken bones or joints that weren't reported in the autopsy. Would that be correct thinking?

Good thinking. How long does it take rigor to pass? Isn't it something like 12 hours?

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder how long the autopsy will take before we get some answers to those very questions?

[SuziQ]

Very interesting theory and quite plausible. I don't think he left and came back tho. I think he hurriedly set up the scene and forgot about the blood not being diluted by the water on the tub. He probably forgot to lay out a towel, robe, or other essentials to show she was readying herself to soak in the tub, too. These things will be further proof this was no accident. (Who was with the children while he was doing all of this? One of the oldest kids? A neighbor?)

She layed on her stomach for at least 6 hours to let lividity set in. Then she was moved to a sitting position in the tub.

[mysteriew]

I wonder how long the autopsy will take before we get some answers to those very questions?

Did you see what Wecht said about the autopsy?

[SuziQ]

Good thinking. How long does it take rigor to pass? Isn't it something like 12 hours?

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0841910.html

(snip)
The state of rigor usually lasts about 24 hours or until muscle decomposition takes place by acid formation.

[mysteriew]

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0841910.html

(snip)
The state of rigor usually lasts about 24 hours or until muscle decomposition takes place by acid formation.

So she could have died at least a full day before she was found.

[SuziQ]

So she could have died at least a full day before she was found.

That's what it sounds like to me anyways.

[mysteriew]

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0841910.html

(snip)
The state of rigor usually lasts about 24 hours or until muscle decomposition takes place by acid formation.

Wait he could have done it that day

The onset may vary from about 10 min to several hours

[SuziQ]

Also the only thing in her stomach was brownish liquid. Morning coffee?

[SuziQ]

Wait he could have done it that day

The onset may vary from about 10 min to several hours

She layed on her stomach long enough to get lividity to the front of her body. At least sevaral hours. But by then she would have been in rigor. Can't place a body in a sitting position while in rigor. So she must have been moved after rigor passed.

[STEADFAST]

Do we know what his alibi times were -- for that day and the day before?

[mysteriew]

LAFD gives a different timeline

Lividity occurs gradually, but not less than 30 min. Very noticable after 4 hours and darkest after 8-12 hours

Rigor mortis onset within 2 hours but is gradual. Full onset within 10-12 hours. Gone by 48 hours.

http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/tb100v0395.pdf

[mysteriew]

Do we know what his alibi times were -- for that day and the day before?


I haven't seen it anywhere

[Indy Gal]

http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html


Rigor Mortis:
Rigor mortis is the the stiffening and contraction of the muscles due to chemical reactions that take place in the muscle cells after death.
It typically follows a predictable pattern. Rigidity begins in the small muscles of the face and neck and progresses downward in a “head-to-toe” fashion to the larger muscles. The entire process takes about 8-12 hours. At that time, the body is completely stiff and is “fixed” in the position of death. Then, the process reverses itself, with rigidity being lost in the same fashion, beginning with the small muscles and progressing to the larger ones. This process begins 18 to 36 hours after death and is usually complete within 48 hours. So, rigor is only useful in the first 48 to 60 hours after death.
The reason for the rigidity, is the loss of adenosine triphosphate, or ATP, from the muscles. ATP is the compound that serves as energy for muscular activity and it’s presence and stability depend upon a steady supply of oxygen and nutrients, which are lost with the cessation of cardiac activity. The later loss of rigidity and the appearance of flaccidity (relaxation) of the muscles, occurs when the muscle tissue itself begins to decompose.
Rigor is one of the least reliable methods for determining time of death because it is extremely variable. Heat quickens the process, while cold slows it. Obese people may not develop rigor, while in thin victims it tends to occur rapidly. If the victim struggled before death and consumed much of his muscular ATP, the process is hastened.

[cheko1]

In her autopsy report it said there was no rigor mortis......will go check on it

[Tom'sGirl]

In her autopsy report it said there was no rigor mortis......will go check on it

Says on 1st page: Rigor mortis is absent.

[SuziQ]

LAFD gives a different timeline

Lividity occurs gradually, but not less than 30 min. Very noticable after 4 hours and darkest after 8-12 hours

Rigor mortis onset within 2 hours but is gradual. Full onset within 10-12 hours. Gone by 48 hours.

http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/tb100v0395.pdf

So how long of a timeline are we looking at for lividity to have set in and rigor to leave so Drew could move her body from a laying to sitting position?

[SuziQ]

Indy, this from your post is interesting.

If the victim struggled before death and consumed much of his muscular ATP, the process is hastened
***
so rigor could have passed quickly

[cheko1]

Says on 1st page: Rigor mortis is absent.

Thanks Tom'sGirl!!!! I knew I'd seen it there.....

So do you'se think she was past the stage of rigor mortis?

[SeriouslySearching]

She layed on her stomach for at least 6 hours to let lividity set in. Then she was moved to a sitting position in the tub.I thought I read somewhere she was found face down, but the neighbor seemed to contradict that.

[cheko1]

Do we know when the last time anyone spoke to KS?

[Squishified]

In the time that the tub water was "slowly draining out", would rigor mortis have set in?

[SeriouslySearching]

Do we know when the last time anyone spoke to KS?Geat question! I haven't heard anything on that point.

[SuziQ]

I thought I read somewhere she was found face down, but the neighbor seemed to contradict that.

The tub is too small to lay down in let alone face down.

[mysteriew]

If I am understanding this all correctly, lol, lividity started showing up with in 30 min. but would have been light. If body shifted before full lividity I think there would be multiple lividity places (like front and back) and Kathleen was only reported anterior. So movement would probably have to have been sometime 4-8 hours later. But by that time, a lot of rigor would have taken place. It was April right? Turning the heat off in the home might have delayed rigor some, so 4 hours after death maybe there was enough movement to place in the tub?

[SeriouslySearching]

As long as her head was lower than her body, it would be considered face down. I know the tub was small, but if she were slumped far enough into it...the lividity would have been the same.

[SuziQ]

In the time that the tub water was "slowly draining out", would rigor mortis have set in?

She was not moved before lividity set in 6-8 hours. By then rigor would have set in.

[mysteriew]

As long as her head was lower than her body, it would be considered face down. I know the tub was small, but if she were slumped far enough into it...the lividity would have been the same.

But why wouldn't her rear and lower legs have shown more lividity?

[cheko1]

Geat question! I haven't heard anything on that point.

I haven't read a thing about her final day or days! We know DP had the boys...........but what was she doing?

I wish Greta would ask the sister.....to clear up some questions.

[SuziQ]

As long as her head was lower than her body, it would be considered face down. I know the tub was small, but if she were slumped far enough into it...the lividity would have been the same.

It would have been on her back if that was the case. It was on the front of her body. She was found sitting up.

[mysteriew]

Yeah, two questions. Did Drew work that weekend and when did someone last talk to Kathleen.

[SeriouslySearching]

I think there is a discrepancy here.

[mysteriew]

It would have been on her back if that was the case. It was on the front of her body. She was found sitting up.

No if she was found sitting up, but slumped over gravity would have drawn the blood to the lowest point. Her legs and her rear would have been lowest. She might have had some minor lividity on her face chest area, but most would have been the rear

[mysteriew]

I think there is a discrepancy here.

Discrepancy in our theory or in the autopsy/positioning?

[SuziQ]

SS, the descrepancie is what lead the States attorneys office to reopen the case. Her autopsy indicates she was on her stomach. But she was found sitting up.

[SuziQ]

From the tox screen report:
3-2 2004, 2:40PM tox report requested

From the death report:
3-1-2004, 2:20PM time of autopsy

I think the date of the autopsy should read 3-2-2004.

On her death cert it says date of injury unknown, pronounced dead at 11:17 PM on 3-1-2004.

I'm thinking stomach contents is her morning coffee and Drew killed her before she had a chance to eat anything. Then came back many hours later and moved her.

[cheko1]

Here is some info found from the New York Post: Tells about the relationship of DP & Ks while married!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11132007/news/nationalnews/he_wants_me_dead_920252.htm?page=0 (http://www.nypost.com/seven/11132007/news/nationalnews/he_wants_me_dead_920252.htm?page=0)

[Tom'sGirl]

I have some thoughts on Kathleen's Autopsy Report, other than the obvious errors in Time of Death and Autopsy time.

My thinking is that unless something is high priority/suspicious they don't do a thorough exam...........like x-rays for instance.

Rarely do Autopsies take place immediately upon receiving the body, and I think Kathleen actually died on Sunday, Feb. 29th, not Monday, March 1st which would account for the time errors on report, they were dated wrong.

I reviewed three death reports I have in my possession that occurred in my family. The one death that occurred in my home had the wrong day/date of death, it actually reflected the following day and was filled out at the hospital.

On one Death Certificate, it reflected the correct day/date as he passed in a hospital, but they put the wrong age (couldn't do the math I guess) and was signed by a doctor who wasn't even working at the hospital that day.

If Drew had the children for weekend visitation it would seem he would return the children on Sunday night, not on a Monday..................just my thoughts here :hand:

[mysteriew]

I have some thoughts on Kathleen's Autopsy Report, other than the obvious errors in Time of Death and Autopsy time.

My thinking is that unless something is high priority/suspicious they don't do a thorough exam...........like x-rays for instance.

Rarely do Autopsies take place immediately upon receiving the body, and I think Kathleen actually died on Sunday, Feb. 29th, not Monday, March 1st which would account for the time errors on report, they were dated wrong.

I reviewed three death reports I have in my possession that occurred in my family. The one death that occurred in my home had the wrong day/date of death, it actually reflected the following day and was filled out at the hospital.

On one Death Certificate, it reflected the correct day/date as he passed in a hospital, but they put the wrong age (couldn't do the math I guess) and was signed by a doctor who wasn't even working at the hospital that day.

If Drew had the children for weekend visitation it would seem he would return the children on Sunday night, not on a Monday..................just my thoughts here :hand:

Good point

[SuziQ]

I have some thoughts on Kathleen's Autopsy Report, other than the obvious errors in Time of Death and Autopsy time.

My thinking is that unless something is high priority/suspicious they don't do a thorough exam...........like x-rays for instance.

Rarely do Autopsies take place immediately upon receiving the body, and I think Kathleen actually died on Sunday, Feb. 29th, not Monday, March 1st which would account for the time errors on report, they were dated wrong.

I reviewed three death reports I have in my possession that occurred in my family. The one death that occurred in my home had the wrong day/date of death, it actually reflected the following day and was filled out at the hospital.

On one Death Certificate, it reflected the correct day/date as he passed in a hospital, but they put the wrong age (couldn't do the math I guess) and was signed by a doctor who wasn't even working at the hospital that day.

If Drew had the children for weekend visitation it would seem he would return the children on Sunday night, not on a Monday..................just my thoughts here :hand:

I'm going to have to agree with all of the above. It does state the date of injury is unknown. And bringing the kids home Sunday night sounds right.

[SuziQ]

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2007/11/13/very-latest-from-illinois-on-sgt-peterson-wife-3/

(snip)
by Greta Van Susteren
This press release (below) just forwarded to me by OTR Producer Steph Watts (on the ground in Bolingbrook, Illinois):
[Programming note: tonight at 10pm ON THE RECORD you will hear from one of the jurors at the coroner’s inquest that concluded Kathleen Savio’s bathtub March 04 death was an “accident.” The guest wants to respond to things said or implied by the coroner - who incidentally, as noted below, was at the exhumation….don’t miss this interview!)
FOR RELEASE
Contact:
Charles B. Pelkie
Nov. 13, 2007
Press update: Kathleen Savio exhumation
JOLIET – The body of Kathleen Savio was exhumed early today (Tuesday, Nov. 13, 2007) at Queen of Heaven Catholic Cemetery in Hillside.
(more at link)

ETA: Autopsy results will not be released to the public.

[Squishified]

I'll definitely be watching Greta tonight!

[cheko1]

I have thought many times when Steve claimed Drew started screaming what am I going to tell my kids after finding Kathleen ? He is a trained LE officer & should of been able to keep his wits about him. Does anyone else think this is just to weird?

[dee10134]

I have thought many times when Steve claimed Drew started screaming what am I going to tell my kids after finding Kathleen ? He is a trained LE officer & should of been able to keep his wits about him. Does anyone else think this is just to weird?

I think any husband that discovers their wife deceased in a bathtub, LE officer or not, would have a reaction.

I think DP's reaction was more of panic ("What am I going to tell my kids?") than of shock and sadness IMHO.

[Tom'sGirl]

I have thought many times when Steve claimed Drew started screaming what am I going to tell my kids after finding Kathleen ? He is a trained LE officer & should of been able to keep his wits about him. Does anyone else think this is just to weird?

Nope :) Spend some time with them outside their job and some are true 'wussies'. As with several people, we are one thing at work and another at home.

[Littledeer]

IMO:

Lion was with someone WHO WOULD EXPECT a reaction like the one he got from DP.

Again, IMO, it was staged as he already knew that Kathleen would be found dead in the tub.

Oh, his wits were around him and his cronies in blue, that is why it's only in the year of 2007 that this scene is being REINVESTIAGED!!!

[dee10134]

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2007/11/13/very-latest-from-illinois-on-sgt-peterson-wife-3/

(snip)

ETA: Autopsy results will not be released to the public.

Autopsy results are supposed to be part of public record and subject to the Freedom of Information Act, right? They probably have a lock down on them while they are investigating the case but once the investigation has concluded they *should* be publicly accessible.

[justbetweenus]

I have thought many times when Steve claimed Drew started screaming what am I going to tell my kids after finding Kathleen ? He is a trained LE officer & should of been able to keep his wits about him. Does anyone else think this is just to weird?

Yea I do....kinda fake to me. Also I may be reading too much into it but his comment to Geraldo concerning Kathleen being exhumed went something like "now here they are going to exhume her and have another coroner say something else" (paraphrasing) made me think he knows they will say something else.

[cheko1]

Over on GretaWirethey're saying LE never let Kathleen's family know to be at the cemetery for raising her out.

Sounds like the same coroner was there......

Do you'se think there will be another cover up?
Especially since they aren't going to release the autopsy report.

[dee10134]

MSNBC Article on Kathleen being exhumed http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21769873/

There is a brief aerial video of them lifting the casket out. :(

Sorry if this has already been posted.

[dee10134]

Over on GretaWirethey're saying LE never let Kathleen's family know to be at the cemetery for raising her out.

Sounds like the same coroner was there......

Do you'se think there will be another cover up?
Especially since they aren't going to release the autopsy report.

The coroner HAS to be there. From what I understand, he's the one that issues the order to exhume the body in the first place.

I don't think there will be a cover up. Seems like the coroner's pretty ticked that this happened in the first place.

[Tom'sGirl]

Hmmmmmm...............

The autopsy of Savio, performed by a Will County corner's forensic pathologist three weeks after her death.

http://tinyurl.com/29msfd

If the above is correct, then the date of Autopsy maybe should have read March 21st????

[Littledeer]

3 weeks AFTER HER DEATH?????

That doesn't make sense.

[SuziQ]

Hmmmmmm...............

The autopsy of Savio, performed by a Will County corner's forensic pathologist three weeks after her death.

http://tinyurl.com/29msfd

If the above is correct, then the date of Autopsy maybe should have read March 21st????

Wtf? I wonder when her funeral was? Anyone find the actual obit?

[Taximom]

No if she was found sitting up, but slumped over gravity would have drawn the blood to the lowest point. Her legs and her rear would have been lowest. She might have had some minor lividity on her face chest area, but most would have been the rear

Right. On Greta last night the friend of DP's that found her said he saw her first and she was SITTING UP leaning towards her left a bit, head bent over with hair in her face. I can't remember his exact words but he did not say her face was close to her knees.

Blood should have settled in the backs of her thighs and her bottom.

And how do you drown while sitting up?

I really hope they took good crime scene photos.

I suppose now DP will be saying Kathleen had a mystery man in her life and THAT man probably killed her. :slap:

[Taximom]

How long do you continue bleeding after you die? Why would her hair be so bloody if she had drowned in water? Wouldn't the water have washed the blood out?

I thought you stopped bleeding shortly after you die....

[Tom'sGirl]

Wtf? I wonder when her funeral was? Anyone find the actual obit?
Don't know, and never have seen an obit..........

[Tom'sGirl]

Right. On Greta last night the friend of DP's that found her said he saw her first and she was SITTING UP leaning towards her left a bit, head bent over with hair in her face. I can't remember his exact words but he did not say her face was close to her knees.

Blood should have settled in the backs of her thighs and her bottom.

And how do you drown while sitting up?

I really hope they took good crime scene photos.

I suppose now DP will be saying Kathleen had a mystery man in her life and THAT man probably killed her. :slap:

I doubt they even took any photos as it wasn't a Crime Scene then....

[dee10134]

Savio, Kathleen - Kathleen Savio, age 40, suddenly March 1, 2004, at her residence in Bolingbrook, formerly of Glendale Heights. Survived by her loving children Thomas and Kristopher ... Published in the Chicago Tribune on 3/4/2004. 131 total words

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries.asp?Page=ObitFinderOrder&PersonID=1994345

Looking for full text version (without having to purchase)...

[dee10134]

Here's an abstract of the obit that goes a little further...

"SAVIO, KATHLEEN [Chicago Final Edition]

Chicago Tribune - Chicago, Ill.
Date: Mar 4, 2004 Section: Obituaries Text Word Count: 131
Abstract (Document Summary)
Kathleen Savio, age 40, suddenly March 1, 2004, at her residence in Bolingbrook, formerly of Glendale Heights. Survived by her loving children Thomas and Kristopher Peterson; devoted daughter of Henry (Marcia) Savio; sister of Anna Marie Savio-Doman, Susan M. Savio, Henry M...."


Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction or distribution is prohibited without permission.

[dee10134]

Joliet Herald, Obituaries for 3/4/2004

"Recent Deaths
Savio, Kathleen, 40
Bolingbrook,March 1
Anderson Memorial Chapel
(815) 886-2323"

[Littledeer]

Tom'sGirl:

Just a couple of questions here:

You said (snip.....)

My thinking is that unless something is high priority/suspicious they don't do a thorough exam...........like x-rays for instance.

So, they don't think it is a high priority/suspicious death at this time? So no, x-rays, etc..

Sunday, Feb. 29th, not Monday, March 1st which would account for the time errors on report, they were dated wrong.

Then later you say:

The autopsy of Savio, performed by a Will County corner's forensic pathologist three weeks after her death.

Seems contradictory........if non suspicious, you do your review, get the body out of the morgue for other more SUSPICIOUS bodies, etc.

But then there is a 3 week period, until her autopsy is done??

I am confused!!!

Help!

[Tom'sGirl]

Here's an abstract of the obit that goes a little further...

"SAVIO, KATHLEEN [Chicago Final Edition]

Chicago Tribune - Chicago, Ill.
Date: Mar 4, 2004 Section: Obituaries Text Word Count: 131
Abstract (Document Summary)
Kathleen Savio, age 40, suddenly March 1, 2004, at her residence in Bolingbrook, formerly of Glendale Heights. Survived by her loving children Thomas and Kristopher Peterson; devoted daughter of Henry (Marcia) Savio; sister of Anna Marie Savio-Doman, Susan M. Savio, Henry M...."


Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction or distribution is prohibited without permission.
Dee, wonder when she was actually buried ?, if only a few days later the media link I posted was wrong, if not...........hmmm

[dee10134]

Kathleen Savio
http://www.legacy.com/images/General/NoticeGuestBookButton.gif (http://www.legacy.com/chicagotribune/LegacySubPage2.asp?Page=GuestBook&PersonID=1994345)
Kathleen Savio, age 40, suddenly March 1, 2004, at her residence in Bolingbrook, formerly of Glendale Heights. Survived by her loving children Thomas and Kristopher Peterson; devoted daughter of Henry (Marcia) Savio; sister of Anna Marie Savio-Doman, Susan M. Savio, Henry M. (Mary) Savio and Nicholas Savio; aunt of Charles H. Doman, Melissa (Tom) Moore, Michael E. Lisak, Angela M. Lisak, Elizabeth Savio, Robert Savio and Noelle Savio; niece of Mike Szpak; dear friend of Steve Maniaci; preceded in death by her Mother, Mary Savio. Visitation Friday 3 to 9 p.m. at the Anderson Memorial Chapel, 606 Townhall Dr., Romeoville. Funeral Saturday, March 6, 2003, 9:30 a.m. from the funeral home chapel to St. Andrew Catholic Church for a 10 a.m. Mass. Interment Queen of Heaven Catholic Cemetery in Hillside. 815-886-2323.
Published in the Chicago Tribune on 3/4/2004.

[dee10134]

Dee, wonder when she was actually buried ?, if only a few days later the media link I posted was wrong, if not...........hmmm

Chicago Tribune's Obituary says the funeral was held "Saturday March 6, 2003" but I believe the year is a typo, should say "Saturday March 6, 2004."

[dee10134]

Then later you say:

The autopsy of Savio, performed by a Will County corner's forensic pathologist three weeks after her death.

Seems contradictory........if non suspicious, you do your review, get the body out of the morgue for other more SUSPICIOUS bodies, etc.

But then there is a 3 week period, until her autopsy is done??

I am confused!!!

Help!

From the Obit published in the Chicago Tribune: She died 3/1, obituary 3/4, funeral 3/6.

ETA: I think the media link posted by Tom's Girl was wrong.

[Tom'sGirl]

Chicago Tribune's Obituary says the funeral was held "Saturday March 6, 2003" but I believe the year is a typo, should say "Saturday March 6, 2004."

Thanks so much dee for finding this for us, shish, no one seems to type dates or time right :doh:

[chicoliving]

The time lapse could be the waiting for tox reports to complete the report.??

[dee10134]

Thanks so much dee for finding this for us, shish, no one seems to type dates or time right :doh:

No problemo!

[Tom'sGirl]

From the Obit published in the Chicago Tribune: She died 3/1, obituary 3/4, funeral 3/6.

ETA: I think the media link posted by Tom's Girl was wrong.


Was it ever, it really threw me when I read it!

[Cakegirl]

Coming out of lurk mode to say keep up the good work everyone. :clap:

I just saw on a msnbc video link that an independent person will perform the autopsy -- not the same man who did the previous one. So that's good news atleast.

[chicoliving]

Hi Cakegirl! Nice to see you posting :)

[Littledeer]

Should I put the info from Kathleen's obit on the "Key Players" thread??

[cheko1]

Coming out of lurk mode to say keep up the good work everyone. :clap:

I just saw on a msnbc video link that an independent person will perform the autopsy -- not the same man who did the previous one. So that's good news atleast.


Welcome to WS Cakegirl!

Jump in we welcome all opinions!

[SuziQ]

The time lapse could be the waiting for tox reports to complete the report.??

oh geeze, I just thought of something. The autopsy report is signed on March 20th, 2004.

Can't anyone get their dates straight?

[SuziQ]

Chicago Tribune's Obituary says the funeral was held "Saturday March 6, 2003" but I believe the year is a typo, should say "Saturday March 6, 2004."

Thank you Dee! :blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

Should I put the info from Kathleen's obit on the "Key Players" thread??

That would be great, thanks!

[SuziQ]

Coming out of lurk mode to say keep up the good work everyone. :clap:

I just saw on a msnbc video link that an independent person will perform the autopsy -- not the same man who did the previous one. So that's good news atleast.

That is great news. You should post more often!

[Littledeer]

SuziQ:

Going to do it in a few minutes!!!!!

Anything else should I add???

[Littledeer]

CakeGirl:

Welcome!!! Glad your out of "lurk mode" :):) It's hard, took me over a year before I peeped. LOL

[SeekingJana]

I have a couple of questions based upon the excellent theory posted here about how she was beaten, tortured ( putting someone's head in a toilet is torture!) and killed, then the bathtub scene staged.

Wouldn't there be trace evidence, such as blood from the many fresh lacerations and abrasions, possibly mucous from her mouth or nose, blood or tissue on flooring where she was dragged ( dragging was mentioned as part of the scenario)?

Could crime scene processing still produce any evidence of blood or tissue?

Isn't it probable, since she was of average height, that her body was laid out somewhere else in the house, either on the floor or on the bed, etc for a period of hours while rigor and lividity formed, and rigor passed? I haven't seen a floorplan of the bathroom, but I know that I couldn't fit very well in all but one. I am about Kathleen's height and of average weight.

Has the house been processed as a crime scene in the past few days, does anyone know?

[SuziQ]

SuziQ:

Going to do it in a few minutes!!!!!

Anything else should I add???


I can't think of anything else.

[SuziQ]

The Autopsy report is signed 3-20-04. And the time stamp on one page says 3-25-04. They are not signed until tox screens come back. And this one came back on 3-16-04 The media obviously picked up on one of those dates.

[Leila]

I just checked out Gretawire, and Greta has posted that she's received suggestions from people about posting a separate document file on her site, where people could view such things as autopsy reports, pictures, etc. She said she's exploring this idea.

[SuziQ]

Good question SeekingJana. I don't know the answer to that though.

Just so happened that I have a plumber at my house today working on a Toilet :eek: . So I said, "don't think I'm being weird by asking this, but...can an adult drown in a toilet?". He said, "oh absolutely! It only takes an ounce of water to drown" Turns out not only did he not think I asked a weird question, he's just like we are! We spent an hour talking about this case. I hope I'm not paying for that hour!

[SuziQ]

I just checked out Gretawire, and Greta has posted that she's received suggestions from people about posting a separate document file on her site, where people could view such things as autopsy reports, pictures, etc. She said she's exploring this idea.

Maybe we'll get the docs for the coroners jury after all.

[Littledeer]

Go Greta!!

This case has got her!! :) I just wish she could split in a million pieces, so every other case can have a slice too!!

TOO MANY FRIGGING MURDERS and MISSING PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Indy Gal]

Coming out of lurk mode to say keep up the good work everyone. :clap:

I just saw on a msnbc video link that an independent person will perform the autopsy -- not the same man who did the previous one. So that's good news atleast.Welcome!!! you should post more often, would love to hear you insight as well:blowkiss:

[Littledeer]

SuziQ:

So you just spent an hour talking to a plumber, WHO YOU PROBABLY DON'T KNOW...............

your one lucky person!! lol.

Glad to know that he left and your ok! Kids have bee