PDA

View Full Version : Taking Christ out of Christmas


Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 09:00 AM
Didnt know where to put this please move if in wrong place....


My Granny all growing up used to tell me to never write X-mas as you take Christ out, so when I saw this I thought I would bring it over and see what yall think. IMO PPL are ruining Christmas. No fat santa, no Ho Ho Ho, Beating up Santas, the list goes on. Will there even be a Christmas that we know left for our children??

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/20/roland.martin/index.html

deanws
12-21-2007, 09:50 AM
I agree Indy gal. It is very sad indeed. :(

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 09:52 AM
I agree Indy gal. It is very sad indeed. :(
Okay I must have missed something, you changed your name when I was gone....Thanks for keeping same siggy Thats how i knew it was you..LOL

It is sad I am just scared there will be nothing left for my little one. Heck will we even be able to celebrate this holiday in 20 years. :confused:

Rino
12-21-2007, 09:53 AM
Because of all the politically correct idiots, we are being encouraged to stop saying "Merry Christmas" for the more palatable "Happy Holidays." What the heck are "Seasons Greetings"? Can someone tell me what season we are greeting folks about?
http://megomuseum.com/community/images/smilies/clapping.gif

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 09:55 AM
http://megomuseum.com/community/images/smilies/clapping.gif
Agreed!!!! I dont care I still say merry christmas to E1 I see!! Sue me America..LOL

deanws
12-21-2007, 09:59 AM
Okay I must have missed something, you changed your name when I was gone....Thanks for keeping same siggy Thats how i knew it was you..LOL

It is sad I am just scared there will be nothing left for my little one. Heck will we even be able to celebrate this holiday in 20 years. :confused:Yes it me. Going through a horrible divorce made me want to puke when I had to sign on as dean*#&$))! so I started over as deanws. It is horrible how a few can ruin it for the masses. I totally understand how you feel. I have a 2 year old granddaughter. I know she she will never experience any of the holidays as I did in my childhood and it is sad.:(

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:04 AM
Yes it me. Going through a horrible divorce made me want to puke when I had to sign on as dean*#&$))! so I started over as deanws. It is horrible how a few can ruin it for the masses. I totally understand how you feel. I have a 2 year old granddaughter. I know she she will never experience any of the holidays as I did in my childhood and it is sad.:(
Sorry to hear that ((((DEANWS)))))

ember
12-21-2007, 10:11 AM
Actually, some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise and want to leave Christ out of the mess that has become "Christmas". It really is a big ruse...this whole thing about this season being about Christianity's golden child. It was orginally Yule, the time for winter solstice and celebration to usher in the longer days ahead...but again, the "heathens" had to convert.


This church know it's history. See link: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/xmas.htm



On another note..... here is a little history on why it is OK to use "X" instead of "Christ" for Christmas.

X-as-chi was associated with Christ long before X-as-cross could be, since the cross as a Christian symbol developed later. (The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys.)
While some see the spelling of Christmas as Xmas a threat, others see it as a way to honor the martyrs.

Yes, X is for "Chi"--the first letter of Christ's name in Greek and an accepted symbol for Christ for hundreds of years.

What's even more depressing is that all of the people who get so uptight about the use of X (and who are likely therefore Christian) are the ones who got it completely wrong.

What does that say about the modern Christian's knowledge about the history of their own faith?

Geesh! I'm not even a Christian and I know this! What are they teaching y'all in church?!


ETA: I still wish Merry Christmas to everyone I see because it just doesn't hold the same magic when I say anything else. Must be because of memories from my childhood when everyone wished a Merry Christmas! I miss those days.....

Rino
12-21-2007, 10:13 AM
Geesh! I'm not even a Christian and I know this! What are they teaching y'all in church?!
To love - even those who make it difficult :D

Paladin
12-21-2007, 10:17 AM
I can certainly see both sides of the argument. I'm a Christian, so it's easy for me to be offended by the perceived backlash against Christmas. Needless to say, it's obvious that people do not like change. The change being a more politically correct society, one in which we say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Non-Christians sometimes think we are "shoving [Christmas and Christianity] down [their] throats."

I'd rather see a society where Jewish people wish me a Happy Hanukkah, or where an African wishes me a Happy Kwanzaa, or where an Atheist can just not wish me anything at all, all in addition to people wishing each other a Merry Christmas. I would be honored if any person wished me one of these things.

Political correctness has gotten out of hand. It has given many people the false impression that they should feel offended at every pass. It has done nothing but made this country a bunch of super-sensitive whiners.

Don't get me wrong though, there are certainly things that we need to stand up against such as prejudice, bigotry, and the like, but I think this has gone just a little bit too far.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:17 AM
:clap: :clap: To love - even those who make it difficult :D
That is the truth!

T-Rex
12-21-2007, 10:19 AM
I actually wish it would separate completely, into Chrismas and Christ Mass, or something like that. I want to share the tree, and the lights, and the presents, and Santa, with all of my friends, Jewish, and Christian and Islamic--it's fun--and it really doesn't have anything to do with religion, like Valentine's Day. And I want the religious part to come to the forefront again, separate from that, with a season where people are greatful, and try to do good deeds, and be kind to others.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:22 AM
For me personally it has nothing to really do with being Catholic, Jewish, etc....I am just tired of the PC ppl runing everything out there including Christmas. I know many ppl who are different religons than I and they are not offened by me saying merry christmas, heck some of my Jewish friends say it as well. It, for me, just has to do with tradition.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:25 AM
Adding on to last post here. I cant consider myself a good Catholic any how, I dont go to church all that much, I never go to midnight mass, but I do believe in God and so forth. But I just never thought saying merry christmas to someone was pushing my faith onto someone else. Am I wrong? By saying this do I offend ppl who are jewish, etc?

Paladin
12-21-2007, 10:28 AM
Adding on to last post here. I cant consider myself a good Catholic any how, I dont go to church all that much, I never go to midnight mass, but I do believe in God and so forth. But I just never thought saying merry christmas to someone was pushing my faith onto someone else. Am I wrong? By saying this do I offend ppl who are jewish, etc?

The answer to your question is both yes and no. It all depends on who you ask.

I personally think it just so happens the people who are offended are usually the most vocal about it, and are certainly in the minority.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:31 AM
The answer to your question is both yes and no. It all depends on who you ask.

I personally think it just so happens the people who are offended are usually the most vocal about it, and are certainly in the minority.
Okay point taken, next question How do we raise our children with our faith and then try and explain to them why we cant say merry christmas? Not being an ass here just really trying to figure all this out before the bean arrives....I want to see what DK has to say. I hope he comes in here

ember
12-21-2007, 10:31 AM
:clap: :clap:
That is the truth!


hmmmm, is it? I mean, I know that is suppossed to be the intent but I'm just not convinced. For instance, there are alot of "good Christians" along with everyone else, trashing the Spears in a time that is most difficult for them. Though I do not attend church, I'm sure they do teach to not judge others for their "sins".

But it is a nice concept!

Whatever religion you may be, screw the PC and say what makes you feel in the hoilday mood. Most won't mind and will just be happy to be wished at all.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Paladin
12-21-2007, 10:35 AM
Okay point taken, next question How do we raise our children with our faith and then try and explain to them why we cant say merry christmas? Not being an ass here just really trying to figure all this out before the bean arrives....I want to see what DK has to say. I hope he comes in here

My opinion is you don't tell them they can't say Merry Christmas. I would tell my children to be loud, be proud, and be considerate. It depends on the situation. If you think the phrase may offend someone, then don't blast it in their face.

If you say it and they say it makes them uncomfortable, then apologize and move on, but never deny yourself the joy of spreading Christmas cheer. That's my policy.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:38 AM
hmmmm, is it? I mean, I know that is suppossed to be the intent but I'm just not convinced. For instance, there are alot of "good Christians" along with everyone else, trashing the Spears in a time that is most difficult for them. Though I do not attend church, I'm sure they do teach not to judge others for their "sins".

But it is a nice concept! Merry Christmas to all!
I am not saying all are perfect, although I am trying But yes that is what is taught. Do unto others as you would want done to you. It would be a perfect concept to follow even if you dont believe in religon, IMO

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:39 AM
My opinion is you don't tell them they can't say Merry Christmas. I would tell my children to be loud, be proud, and be considerate. It depends on the situation. If you think the phrase may offend someone, then don't blast it in their face.

If you say it and they say it makes them uncomfortable, then apologize and move on, but never deny yourself the joy of spreading Christmas cheer. That's my policy.
That my friend is great advice Thank you so much!!!

ember
12-21-2007, 10:43 AM
I am not saying all are perfect, although I am trying But yes that is what is taught. Do unto others as you would want done to you. It would be a perfect concept to follow even if you dont believe in religon, IMO


I absolutely agree! :)

Maral
12-21-2007, 10:43 AM
Didnt know where to put this please move if in wrong place....


My Granny all growing up used to tell me to never write X-mas as you take Christ out, so when I saw this I thought I would bring it over and see what yall think. IMO PPL are ruining Christmas. No fat santa, no Ho Ho Ho, Beating up Santas, the list goes on. Will there even be a Christmas that we know left for our children??

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/20/roland.martin/index.html


X and XP are ancient Christian abbreviations for Christ's name, so it has never occured to me that seeing or writing Xmas instead of Christmas is taking Christ out of Christmas.

Edited to add: Sorry, I didn't read Ember's post before posting.

MeoW333
12-21-2007, 10:44 AM
Adding on to last post here. I cant consider myself a good Catholic any how, I dont go to church all that much, I never go to midnight mass, but I do believe in God and so forth. But I just never thought saying merry christmas to someone was pushing my faith onto someone else. Am I wrong? By saying this do I offend ppl who are jewish, etc?

I hear ya, Indy.. I would keep saying Merry Christmas, i don't think it's offensive, or pushing faith onto another. Only the individual is capable of pushing a faith onto theirself as everyone is responsible for their own actions.

I've also heard of the X as the symbol of the cross. Also when in signing contracts, sign at the X which going way back symbolized the cross..

It seems corporations are marketing all our Holidays for corporate gains, and they just want to make money off all of them, and they do.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 10:45 AM
X and XP are ancient Christian abbreviations for Christ's name, so it has never occured to me that seeing or writing Xmas instead of Christmas is taking Christ out of Christmas.
So I have learned today. My granny as most are was set in her ways of thinking.

Maral
12-21-2007, 11:07 AM
Actually, some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise and want to leave Christ out of the mess that has become "Christmas". It really is a big ruse...this whole thing about this season being about Christianity's golden child. It was orginally Yule, the time for winter solstice and celebration to usher in the longer days ahead...but again, the "heathens" had to convert.....
If some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise, I believe they are wrong. So what if the date coincides with a pagan holiday? Christians are not celebrating a date on the calendar, but an EVENT - the birth of Christ. It shouldn't matter when we celebrate it, what should matter is that we do celebrate it.

Glow
12-21-2007, 11:09 AM
So I have learned today. My granny as most are was set in her ways of thinking.


Ah Indy Gal...you seem to be that most delightfully rare of creatures!

A woman who can actually learn from the viewpoints of others. Usually threads like this just go round and round with each one defending there original viewpoint. Your post about having learned something is very admirable!

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 11:11 AM
Ah Indy Gal...you seem to be that most delightfully rare of creatures!

A woman who can actually learn from the viewpoints of others. Usually threads like this just go round and round with each one defending there original viewpoint. Your post about having learned something is very admirable!
WOW!! Thank you so much. I learn a lot from here. Although I must admit somethings I stand firm on, but most times I do learn. Thanks again.

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 11:18 AM
Actually, some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise and want to leave Christ out of the mess that has become "Christmas". It really is a big ruse...this whole thing about this season being about Christianity's golden child. It was orginally Yule, the time for winter solstice and celebration to usher in the longer days ahead...but again, the "heathens" had to convert.


This church know it's history. See link: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/xmas.htm



On another note..... here is a little history on why it is OK to use "X" instead of "Christ" for Christmas.

X-as-chi was associated with Christ long before X-as-cross could be, since the cross as a Christian symbol developed later. (The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys.)
While some see the spelling of Christmas as Xmas a threat, others see it as a way to honor the martyrs.

Yes, X is for "Chi"--the first letter of Christ's name in Greek and an accepted symbol for Christ for hundreds of years.

What's even more depressing is that all of the people who get so uptight about the use of X (and who are likely therefore Christian) are the ones who got it completely wrong.

What does that say about the modern Christian's knowledge about the history of their own faith?

Geesh! I'm not even a Christian and I know this! What are they teaching y'all in church?!


ETA: I still wish Merry Christmas to everyone I see because it just doesn't hold the same magic when I say anything else. Must be because of memories from my childhood when everyone wished a Merry Christmas! I miss those days.....

The pagan story is something that people, especially non-Christians, still hang on to, desperately trying to discredit Christmas, as if the date really matters. The date is irrelevent, the celebration is not.

Your are correct about the origins of the "X", but some people deliberately use the X to leave Christ out of it.

KrisNine
12-21-2007, 01:45 PM
I'm not religious and it doesn't offend me if someone says Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays, etc. They mean well, whatever they are saying.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 01:48 PM
The pagan story is something that people, especially non-Christians, still hang on to, desperately trying to discredit Christmas, as if the date really matters. The date is irrelevent, the celebration is not.

Your are correct about the origins of the "X", but some people deliberately use the X to leave Christ out of it.
Thank you for you post!!!:blowkiss:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm not religious and it doesn't offend me if someone says Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays, etc. They mean well, whatever they are saying.
Thats what I think too!

MREG2
12-21-2007, 02:08 PM
Agreed!!!! I dont care I still say merry christmas to E1 I see!! Sue me America..LOL


Me too Indy Gal! I don't say it to offend...just trying to be friendly. If it just so happens to offend someone well then they can just go........... :silenced:

As long as I'm alive my children will know the Christmas the way it was for me. I promise that.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 02:11 PM
I can certainly see both sides of the argument. I'm a Christian, so it's easy for me to be offended by the perceived backlash against Christmas. Needless to say, it's obvious that people do not like change. The change being a more politically correct society, one in which we say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Non-Christians sometimes think we are "shoving [Christmas and Christianity] down [their] throats."

I'd rather see a society where Jewish people wish me a Happy Hanukkah, or where an African wishes me a Happy Kwanzaa, or where an Atheist can just not wish me anything at all, all in addition to people wishing each other a Merry Christmas. I would be honored if any person wished me one of these things.

Political correctness has gotten out of hand. It has given many people the false impression that they should feel offended at every pass. It has done nothing but made this country a bunch of super-sensitive whiners.

Don't get me wrong though, there are certainly things that we need to stand up against such as prejudice, bigotry, and the like, but I think this has gone just a little bit too far.


Same here Paladin. To me, it just shows that "you" are strong and confident in your faith. I am a Christian and I will say Merry Christmas because that's what I do. It's what I believe. I'm loving it. :D

Nova
12-21-2007, 02:25 PM
Adding on to last post here. I cant consider myself a good Catholic any how, I dont go to church all that much, I never go to midnight mass, but I do believe in God and so forth. But I just never thought saying merry christmas to someone was pushing my faith onto someone else. Am I wrong? By saying this do I offend ppl who are jewish, etc?

In most cases, it isn't so much that you "offend" anyone, but it does serve as a reminder to non-Christians that they are excluded from certain celebrations. It's not YOUR fault that their beliefs and/or traditions exclude them, of course, but you might ask yourself what it is you really want to say.

If your purpose is to announce which holiday matters to you, by all means, wish everyone a Merry Christmas. It isn't a crime to do so and nobody has said it is. (The so-called "War on Christmas" is just another fake social issue employed by Fox News and the like to drum up unnecessary indignation.)

But if your intent is to wish joy to others on special days, then it might behoove you to include days that have meaning to them. "Happy Holidays" serves that purpose. Still no law; it's totally up to you.

(This is only an issue with strangers and casual acquaintances, BTW. Christians (including those, like me, who are "Christian" now only by cultural tradition) wish each other "Merry Christmas" all the time and nobody has said we must do otherwise.)

Two more points:

To respond to your link, the "season" of "Season's Greetings" is the season of winter holidays in which we now find ourselves. Such holidays include Christmas (not just Dec. 25, but also other days celebrated as Christmas in other countries, days that extend into January), Chanukah and Ramadan, but also New Year's Eve, Boxing Day (for our British and Canadian friends). The phrase predates any sort of political correctness; when I was a kid, it was used by Christians to refer to the holiday period from Christmas Eve (or even earlier) through New Year's Day.

If there is a danger of removing Christ from Christmas, it doesn't come from what you or I say to strangers during this month. The far greater threats to the "true meaning" of Christmas come from commercialism, a decline in church attendance, and the destruction of communities and extended families primarily by economic forces that compel greater mobility. None of these threats have anything to do with political correctness, nor will they be covered by Fox News, which is owned by those with a vested interest in distracting ordinary Americans from the issues that actually affect our lives.

Nova
12-21-2007, 02:27 PM
Me too Indy Gal! I don't say it to offend...just trying to be friendly. If it just so happens to offend someone well then they can just go........... :silenced:

As long as I'm alive my children will know the Christmas the way it was for me. I promise that.

Emphasis added, 'cause there's "Christmas spirit" for you! (Christian goodwill, too.) :clap:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Great post Nova!

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 02:30 PM
If some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise, I believe they are wrong. So what if the date coincides with a pagan holiday? Christians are not celebrating a date on the calendar, but an EVENT - the birth of Christ. It shouldn't matter when we celebrate it, what should matter is that we do celebrate it.

You are very much correct. The date is irrelevant, the event is not. The pagan thing is an old excuse by non Christians and lazy Christians to not celebrate His birth on ANY date. Just another insidious attempt by the devil to undermine the faith, but it just won't work. The gates of Hell will not prevail against His church.

ETA: I didn't realize my previous post stating the same thing actually made it online before WS went down for a bit, sorry.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 02:49 PM
Emphasis added, 'cause there's "Christmas spirit" for you! (Christian goodwill, too.) :clap:


Sorry Nova... Maybe that was a little harsh but why should I be afraid to say Merry Christmas to someone for fear of offending them? It just rubs me wrong. If someone was to wish me something other than Merry Christmas I would not be offended at all. The fact that their heart was in the right place means more to me than what they say (if that makes sense).

I may be a Christian but also human. I know you don't like me, Nova, so let's just leave it at that.

absinthe
12-21-2007, 02:50 PM
As usual I love Nova's post. War on Christmas - discussed more than the actual war in Iraq. If I didn't have close friends desperately trying to evacuate their families from Iraq currently, I would have forgotten all about it. Sorry for the slight topic change, but I will add that Christmas is a very dangerous time for Iraqi Christians now that Saddam's control over Muslim extremists is gone.

absinthe
12-21-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm loving the different viewpoints on this post and hoping things don't get caustic.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 02:54 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: why should I be afraid to say Merry Christmas to someone for fear of offending them? It just rubs me wrong. If someone was to wish me something other than Merry Christmas I would not be offended at all. The fact that their heart was in the right place means more to me than what they say (if that makes sense).
.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 02:59 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Thanks IG. :blowkiss:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Thanks IG. :blowkiss:
Anytime...:blowkiss:

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:02 PM
OT - IG I'm glad you are back. Not sure what happened but for Pete's sake don't do it again. :)

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:04 PM
OT - IG I'm glad you are back. Not sure what happened but for Pete's sake don't do it again. :)
I will try very hard not to get locked out again. I need to learn just to walk away..LOL

deanws
12-21-2007, 03:05 PM
Sorry to hear that ((((DEANWS)))))Thanks Indy. I am all better now. See the picture of me and my new boyfriend? I am as happy as a clam now!!!! :D

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:06 PM
Thanks Indy. I am all better now. See the picture of me and my new boyfriend? I am as happy as a clam now!!!! :D
He sure is a cutie, you go girl!! Live for you now!!:clap: :clap:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:13 PM
I'm loving the different viewpoints on this post and hoping things don't get caustic.
Me too, I was not thinking this would turn into a religion thread, DUH me!! LOL There are things I have learned not to speak with others about Religion and Politics.....

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:14 PM
Sorry Nova... Maybe that was a little harsh but why should I be afraid to say Merry Christmas to someone for fear of offending them? It just rubs me wrong. If someone was to wish me something other than Merry Christmas I would not be offended at all. The fact that their heart was in the right place means more to me than what they say (if that makes sense).

I may be a Christian but also human. I know you don't like me, Nova, so let's just leave it at that.

I don't like you?! I am very, very sorry I gave you that impression. I promise you no such thing ever entered my mind.

I was just making a point about the temper of one remark. I certainly didn't mean to condemn you as a person or to question your faith.

I'm asking what is the "true" spirit of Christmas? Since God chose to incarnate through an unwed Jewish mother who found herself in greatly reduced circumstances in a foreign place (even for those who believe the story is a profound myth rather than historical fact), then I have to think the "true" spirit of Christmas has something to do with Good Will Toward All Mankind, not just those who are like us or those who believe as we do.

As such, a wish that celebrates whatever days are important to the recipient seems more sincere than one which merely asserts one's right to one's own beliefs (though I certainly support that right).

So if I know someone is Jewish, for example, I wish her a Happy Chanukah. But with strangers, I choose words that can apply to whatever the stranger finds meaningful and special.

And on that note, mreg2, I want to sincerely wish you (and Indy Law and Paladin and Dark Knight and Maral) a very, very merry Christmas indeed!

ember
12-21-2007, 03:14 PM
You are very much correct. The date is irrelevant, the event is not. The pagan thing is an old excuse by non Christians and lazy Christians to not celebrate His birth on ANY date. Just another insidious attempt by the devil to undermine the faith, but it just won't work. The gates of Hell will not prevail against His church.

ETA: I didn't realize my previous post stating the same thing actually made it online before WS went down for a bit, sorry.


No....you are very much wrong. The "pagan thing" is most definitely NOT an excuse. Let's have a history lesson...

Pagans were celebrating the birth of the sun-god. Mithra, long before Christ was even born.

The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.


Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.



And they took many pagan traditions and made them their own:

Many of our modern Christmas traditions began hundreds of years before Christ was born. Some of these traditions date back more than 4000 years. The addition of Christ to the celebration of the winter solstice did not occur until 300 years after Christ died and as late as 1800, some devout Christian sects, like the Puritans, forbade their members from celebrating Christmas because it was considered a pagan holiday.

The Christmas tree is derived from several solstice traditions. The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and placed candles in live trees to decorate for the celebration of Saturnalia. In Scandinavia, they hung apples from evergreen trees at the winder solstice to remind themselves that spring and summer will come again. The evergreen tree was the special plant of their sun god, Baldor.

The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today.

Mistletoe is from an ancient Druid custom at the winter solstice. Mistletoe was considered a divine plant and it symbolized love and peace. The tradition of kissing under the mistletoe is Druid in origin.

The Scandinavian solstice traditions had a lot of influences on our celebration besides the hanging of ornaments on evergreen trees. Their ancient festival was called Yuletide and celebrated the return of the sun.

One of their traditions was the Yule log. The log was the center of the trunk of a tree that was dragged to a large fireplace where it was supposed to burn for twelve days. From this comes the twelve days of Christmas.


Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithrasí birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesusí official birthday coincide with Mithrasí birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer.


However, I agree the date of Christ's birth is irrelevant. I believe he was a great man and his birth deserves to be celebrated. But I don't think people should be ignorant to the facts if they don't have to be.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate Christmas. I use the word myself. "Merry Christmas" just has a more magical ring to it than any other season greeting. By the way...the "Merry" part, it's pagan too. The pagan greeting is often "Merry Meet"

Again, whether you like it or not, Christianity has alot of pagan DNA. You can choose to believe it or not....but it doesn't change what is fact.

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:15 PM
I will try very hard not to get locked out again. I need to learn just to walk away..LOL

I had no idea that had happened, IG. I would have been bereft!

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Me too, I was not thinking this would turn into a religion thread, DUH me!! LOL There are things I have learned not to speak with others about Religion and Politics.....

Definitely sticky topics, Indy! BTW, where are you from in Indiana?

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:17 PM
Ember can we just agree you dont believe what we believe. My intent with this thread really was how PC ppl are taking our Christmas away from us, nothing more

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:18 PM
Definitely sticky topics, Indy! BTW, where are you from in Indiana?
Indianapolis. Cold and snowy here...blah LOL

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:19 PM
I had no idea that had happened, IG. I would have been bereft!
I am sure you of all people have seen me get worked up, only from the threads we post at...LOL I am just glad it is over..LOL

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:20 PM
Ember, I don't think Dark Knight was arguing that pagan holidays and elements weren't incorporated into the celebration of Christmas. He knows that.

He just meant that ancient pagan associations are a poor excuse to ignore the greater truth of the occasion.

Rino
12-21-2007, 03:20 PM
Sorry Nova... Maybe that was a little harsh but why should I be afraid to say Merry Christmas to someone for fear of offending them? It just rubs me wrong. If someone was to wish me something other than Merry Christmas I would not be offended at all. The fact that their heart was in the right place means more to me than what they say (if that makes sense).

I may be a Christian but also human. I know you don't like me, Nova, so let's just leave it at that.
I could have written that on all accounts. :D

Only a fool is offended at being excluded from something he/she wishes not be in involved in. People are offended today because it is fashionable and being angry and/or offended gives them the feeling of being deep or important on a level superior to the rest of us.

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:22 PM
Ember can we just agree you dont believe what we believe. My intent with this thread really was how PC ppl are taking our Christmas away from us, nothing more

Honestly, IG, I don't think "PC ppl" are doing that (except for the ongoing conflict over religious displays on government property, as you know).

I am so often accused of being PC here, I assume I am empowered to speak for my "tribe." :D

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:25 PM
Honestly, IG, I don't think "PC ppl" are doing that (except for the ongoing conflict over religious displays on government property, as you know).

I am so often accused of being PC here, I assume I am empowered to speak for my "tribe." :D
Here is my list I am thinking of when I say that
1. santa shouldnt be fat
2. Santa shouldnt say ho ho ho
3. Of course the topic here not saying MC
There are more but my mind is drawling a blank of course..LOL it just doesnt feel like the Christmas I knew as a kid and I am just scared that tradition will be long gone for my child.

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:26 PM
I think the "War on ho, ho, ho" is largely an urban legend.

deanws
12-21-2007, 03:27 PM
He sure is a cutie, you go girl!! Live for you now!!:clap: :clap:
AWWLL..thank you Indy..you are so sweet.
:blowkiss:

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I will try very hard not to get locked out again. I need to learn just to walk away..LOL


LOL! Sometimes it's easier said than done. I for one need to learn to stay out of threads like these. :crazy:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I think the "War on ho, ho, ho" is largely an urban legend.
I thought I read here somewhere they wanted Santas to say Ha Ha Ha instead?

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I could have written that on all accounts. :D

Only a fool is offended at being excluded from something he/she wishes not be in involved in. People are offended today because it is fashionable and being angry and/or offended gives them the feeling of being deep or important on a level superior to the rest of us.

Rino, I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "being excluded" in my attempt to explain. That was my language, not theirs.

What such people have said to me is that they find it presumptuous when people assume they will--or even want to--experience special merriment on December 25. It isn't a question of taking offense so much as feeling distanced.

So I repeat: who are such wishes intended for, the wisher or the "wishee"?

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:30 PM
I thought I read here somewhere they wanted Santas to say Ha Ha Ha instead?


Let me see if I can dig up a snopes link for you. People have really grabbed hold of the whole "ho, ho, ho" thing because it smacks of the salacious. IMO.

ember
12-21-2007, 03:31 PM
Ember can we just agree you dont believe what we believe. My intent with this thread really was how PC ppl are taking our Christmas away from us, nothing more

I know how you feel. Every one of our holidays were taken from us.





Ember, I don't think Dark Knight was arguing that pagan holidays and elements weren't incorporated into the celebration of Christmas. He knows that.

He just meant that ancient pagan associations are a poor excuse to ignore the greater truth of the occasion.


What is the greater truth of the occasion?

DK stated that it is usually non-Chrisitians that state the pagan origins...but the link I provided was to a Baptist church site.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:33 PM
Let me see if I can dig up a snopes link for you. People have really grabbed hold of the whole "ho, ho, ho" thing because it smacks of the salacious. IMO.
This is the thread I saw this on, havent read in a while maybe I should see if they say this as well at the end.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56150

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:34 PM
Here is my list I am thinking of when I say that
1. santa shouldnt be fat
2. Santa shouldnt say ho ho ho
3. Of course the topic here not saying MC
There are more but my mind is drawling a blank of course..LOL it just doesnt feel like the Christmas I knew as a kid and I am just scared that tradition will be long gone for my child.

And how many people made each of those charges? One? Two? But each time, media outlets everywhere picked up the story and commentators whipped themselves into a fury over something that never had any traction in the first place.

It won't surprise you to hear that I live in a very liberal town in a notoriously liberal state and that most of my friends are passionate progressives. "Merry Christmas" is heard all the time in such areas and among such people. Nobody considers it a significant transgression.

It's mostly corporations (including the one I work for) that want their holiday greetings to be inclusive of non-Christians rather than exclusive. For the most part, that's a marketing decision, not an assault on Christian theology.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:35 PM
[quote=ember;1865146]I know how you feel. Every one of our holidays were taken from us.

I really have no clue what you are talking of????:confused:

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:35 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/hohoho.asp

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:37 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/hohoho.asp
Thanks!!

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:37 PM
...DK stated that it is usually non-Chrisitians that state the pagan origins...but the link I provided was to a Baptist church site.

You're right, DK did say "non-Christians" as well as lazy Christians. I took him to mean apostates looking for an excuse to reject their faith, not people who were never Christian in the first place. But I could be wrong. God knows, DK never actually designated me as his spokesperson.

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:37 PM
Thanks!!

No prob. Ho ho ho will never die!!

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:39 PM
I don't like you?! I am very, very sorry I gave you that impression. I promise you no such thing ever entered my mind.

I was just making a point about the temper of one remark. I certainly didn't mean to condemn you as a person or to question your faith.

I'm asking what is the "true" spirit of Christmas? Since God chose to incarnate through an unwed Jewish mother who found herself in greatly reduced circumstances in a foreign place (even for those who believe the story is a profound myth rather than historical fact), then I have to think the "true" spirit of Christmas has something to do with Good Will Toward All Mankind, not just those who are like us or those who believe as we do.

As such, a wish that celebrates whatever days are important to the recipient seems more sincere than one which merely asserts one's right to one's own beliefs (though I certainly support that right).

So if I know someone is Jewish, for example, I wish her a Happy Chanukah. But with strangers, I choose words that can apply to whatever the stranger finds meaningful and special.

And on that note, mreg2, I want to sincerely wish you (and Indy Law and Paladin and Dark Knight and Maral) a very, very merry Christmas indeed!


Ahhh Nova, we always bump heads when it comes to threads like these.

Yes, I went back and read my previous post and I realized I was a bit harsh. It's my mood today but that's for another thread. :boohoo: I do want to thank you for making me see the error of my ways. One day I'll learn. :)

I would like to think that I live in a world that when I wish someone a Merry Christmas with a smile on my face they see that I'm being sincere and not "rubbing" Christmas, Christ or my faith in their face. I'm not selective on who I wish a Merry Christmas too, hence my good will toward all mankind. But what I don't want to have to worry about is if I'm saying the right words. Adults should be able to reason that since I wish them a Merry Christmas, I am not gloating that Christ is THE man. They choose how they want to feel. Not me.

And thank you Nova for the Merry Christmas. I wish for you the same! :)

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:40 PM
But I could be wrong. God knows, DK never actually designated me as his spokesperson.
So funny you say that, I have had to say the same thing once or twice myself...LOL

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:41 PM
I would like to think that I live in a world that when I wish someone a Merry Christmas with a smile on my face they see that I'm being sincere and not "rubbing" Christmas, Christ or my faith in their face. I'm not selective on who I wish a Merry Christmas too, hence my good will toward all mankind. But what I don't want to have to worry about is if I'm saying the right words. Adults should be able to reason that since I wish them a Merry Christmas, I am not gloating that Christ is THE man. They choose how they want to feel. Not me.

Me too when I say it I dont even think of my faith I think I am being nice and wishing all a merry christmas

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:42 PM
I could have written that on all accounts. :D

Only a fool is offended at being excluded from something he/she wishes not be in involved in. People are offended today because it is fashionable and being angry and/or offended gives them the feeling of being deep or important on a level superior to the rest of us.


You bet. I have cut ties with my family. So when I hear of them having a party or some gathering, I can choose to be offended that I wasn't invited or I can go on with my life. It was after all my choice to have nothing to do with my sisters.

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Ahhh Nova, we always bump heads when it comes to threads like these.

Yes, I went back and read my previous post and I realized I was a bit harsh. It's my mood today but that's for another thread. :boohoo: I do want to thank you for making me see the error of my ways. One day I'll learn. :)

I would like to think that I live in a world that when I wish someone a Merry Christmas with a smile on my face they see that I'm being sincere and not "rubbing" Christmas, Christ or my faith in their face. I'm not selective on who I wish a Merry Christmas too, hence my good will toward all mankind. But what I don't want to have to worry about is if I'm saying the right words. Adults should be able to reason that since I wish them a Merry Christmas, I am not gloating that Christ is THE man. They choose how they want to feel. Not me.

And thank you Nova for the Merry Christmas. I wish for you the same! :)

I promise you, I take your wish for my Merry Christmas in exactly the spirit you intend. Thank you! :)

(Although I stand by my reasoning on the inclusiveness of certain holiday greetings, I don't think this is an issue where we need to beat up on anybody over her choice of words. And I don't think that happens very often, though, as I said, some businesses may require employees to use inclusive greetings. As is their right, surely.)

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Honestly, IG, I don't think "PC ppl" are doing that (except for the ongoing conflict over religious displays on government property, as you know).

I am so often accused of being PC here, I assume I am empowered to speak for my "tribe." :D


:D hmm...

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 03:46 PM
Ember, I don't think Dark Knight was arguing that pagan holidays and elements weren't incorporated into the celebration of Christmas. He knows that.

He just meant that ancient pagan associations are a poor excuse to ignore the greater truth of the occasion.

Why thank you, Nova! You saved me a reply, lol! Well said!

Nova
12-21-2007, 03:49 PM
Why thank you, Nova! You saved me a reply, lol! Well said!

You're welcome. You know how excited I get on those rare occasions when you and I agree. (I'm sure we have different understandings of some of the meanings of Christmas, but I applaud your understanding of the greater truth of symbolism over petty historical details such as who threw the first party in December.)

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:51 PM
And how many people made each of those charges? One? Two? But each time, media outlets everywhere picked up the story and commentators whipped themselves into a fury over something that never had any traction in the first place.

It won't surprise you to hear that I live in a very liberal town in a notoriously liberal state and that most of my friends are passionate progressives. "Merry Christmas" is heard all the time in such areas and among such people. Nobody considers it a significant transgression.

It's mostly corporations (including the one I work for) that want their holiday greetings to be inclusive of non-Christians rather than exclusive. For the most part, that's a marketing decision, not an assault on Christian theology.


Sure corporations want to include Non-christians...that is why every single employee is off on Christmas. Of course, you don't hear non-christians complaining about that aspect. Ahhh...but I will bite my tongue now.

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 03:52 PM
You're welcome. You know how excited I get on those rare occasions when you and I agree. (I'm sure we have different understandings of some of the meanings of Christmas, but I applaud your understanding of the greater truth of symbolism over petty historical details such as who threw the first party in December.)

Indeed!!!! Your overall wisdom is apparent, and always has been.

Did you know that the manger that Christ was born in, based on customs of the time, would have been a cave/grotto? Not the wooden shed that we think of. People kept their animals in caves or grottos carved out of rock for better protection from the elements, especially the cold.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:53 PM
Me too when I say it I dont even think of my faith I think I am being nice and wishing all a merry christmas

Me either....

Now, the day that I spit it out with a look of pure evil.... Just kidding!!! :truce:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:54 PM
Me either....

Now, the day that I spit it out with a look of pure evil.... Just kidding!!! :truce:
you are so funny I think soon we may all have to wave that flag so i fly mine in advance...LOL
:truce:

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 03:55 PM
I am sure you of all people have seen me get worked up, only from the threads we post at...LOL I am just glad it is over..LOL

I don't know what the heck you did either, but I fought with a mod once and only got a 5 day TO, you've been gone over twice that, lol! (Granted the mod sort of started it which may have played a part.) :crazy:

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:56 PM
I promise you, I take your wish for my Merry Christmas in exactly the spirit you intend. Thank you! :)

(Although I stand by my reasoning on the inclusiveness of certain holiday greetings, I don't think this is an issue where we need to beat up on anybody over her choice of words. And I don't think that happens very often, though, as I said, some businesses may require employees to use inclusive greetings. As is their right, surely.)


:blowkiss:

I agree. I really do. It honestly doesn't bother me to see Happy Holiday signs, etc. But it really works me over when I get criticized for saying Merry Christmas. But that's my doing...

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:57 PM
Indeed!!!! Your overall wisdom is apparent, and always has been.

Did you know that the manger that Christ was born in, based on customs of the time, would have been a cave/grotto? Not the wooden shed that we think of. People kept their animals in caves or grottos carved out of rock for better protection from the elements, especially the cold.


Yes, but how ugly would that be on your coffee table?? :p ;)

absinthe
12-21-2007, 03:58 PM
Indeed!!!! Your overall wisdom is apparent, and always has been.

Did you know that the manger that Christ was born in, based on customs of the time, would have been a cave/grotto? Not the wooden shed that we think of. People kept their animals in caves or grottos carved out of rock for better protection from the elements, especially the cold.


Yes! Greek Orthodox nativity icons always depict the cave.

I love the symmetry of Jesus' later entombment in a cave. And as a literature buff, I love the female symbolism of the "cave" :D

MREG2
12-21-2007, 03:58 PM
you are so funny I think soon we may all have to wave that flag so i fly mine in advance...LOL
:truce:


LOL!!! I'm sure I'll be waving it many times before it's all said and done.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 03:59 PM
I don't know what the heck you did either, but I fought with a mod once and only got a 5 day TO, you've been gone over twice that, lol! (Granted the mod sort of started it which may have played a part.) :crazy:
yeah so i had A 30 day to, but got a day shaved off for good behavior..LOL I think it has to due with the fact it was the same poster I "fought" with the first time I was toed.....dumb me...LOL

absinthe
12-21-2007, 04:00 PM
What's a TO and why haven't I gotten one?

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:00 PM
yeah so i had A 30 day to, but got a day shaved off for good behavior..LOL I think it has to due with the fact it was the same poster I "fought" with the first time I was toed.....dumb me...LOL


Woman! Don't you learn?! Stay away from "that" poster!!

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:00 PM
What's a TO and why haven't I gotten one?
It means time out and you dont want it. It is what happens when you are bad. You cant log in for the time given..LOL

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:01 PM
What's a TO and why haven't I gotten one?

We can certainly arrange for you to have one! :D :D :D

absinthe
12-21-2007, 04:01 PM
Uh-oh. What constitutes being bad?

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:02 PM
Woman! Don't you learn?! Stay away from "that" poster!!
Trying to learn now...LOLOLOL I have a thick head sometimes..Lol

ember
12-21-2007, 04:03 PM
You're welcome. You know how excited I get on those rare occasions when you and I agree. (I'm sure we have different understandings of some of the meanings of Christmas, but I applaud your understanding of the greater truth of symbolism over petty historical details such as who threw the first party in December.)


Neither one of you understand the greater truth....because it's a lie! Christ was not even born in December! The Bible even gives clues to when he was born which are not anywhere near December. WHY didn't they make his birth date closer to when it actually could have happened? Because they wanted to destroy the pagan celebrations! That is my point. Those petty historical details are what gave you all your Christmas.

And I just think it's kind of funny that all of the people who get upset about being PC actually feel like their holiday is being stolen from them when their ancestors stole it to begin with! Karma is a b*tch.

Merry Christmas & Happy Yule

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:03 PM
Uh-oh. What constitutes being bad?
Attacking a poster not the post.

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:03 PM
Yes, but how ugly would that be on your coffee table?? :p ;)

LOL! :p

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:04 PM
Neither one of you understand the greater truth....because it's a lie! Christ was not even born in December! The Bible even gives clues to when he was born which are not anywhere near December. WHY didn't they make his birth date closer to when it actually could have happened? Because they wanted to destroy the pagan celebrations! That is my point. Those petty historical details are what gave you all your Christmas.

And I just think it's kind of funny that all of the people who get upset about being PC actually feel like their holiday is being stolen from them when their ancestors stole it to begin with! Karma is a b*tch.

Merry Christmas & Happy Yule
I am not trying to get you to think different why cant you do the same?

Nova
12-21-2007, 04:05 PM
Uh-oh. What constitutes being bad?

Violating the TOS. Basically, if a moderator says "back off," you should do so, whether or not you agree. (I'm NOT talking about Indy Gal. I have no idea what happened there.)

absinthe
12-21-2007, 04:06 PM
We can certainly arrange for you to have one! :D :D :D


You are too kind!

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:07 PM
You are too kind!
Dont let him fool you Hun! LOL

Maral
12-21-2007, 04:07 PM
I would like to think that I live in a world that when I wish someone a Merry Christmas with a smile on my face they see that I'm being sincere and not "rubbing" Christmas, Christ or my faith in their face. I'm not selective on who I wish a Merry Christmas too, hence my good will toward all mankind. But what I don't want to have to worry about is if I'm saying the right words. Adults should be able to reason that since I wish them a Merry Christmas, I am not gloating that Christ is THE man. They choose how they want to feel. Not me.

I agree with everything you say, MREG2.
But adults should also be able to reason that if I wish them Happy Holidays, I'm not trying to take Christ out of Christmas. I don't want to have to worry that some group is going to boycott my business because I choose to say Happy Holidays to my clients this time of the year. My contact with them is only over the phone, I have no idea if they celebrate Christmas or not. But I do, and in the spirit of the season, I want to send them good wishes in an all inclusive way.

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:08 PM
Yes! Greek Orthodox nativity icons always depict the cave.

I love the symmetry of Jesus' later entombment in a cave. And as a literature buff, I love the female symbolism of the "cave" :D

I also have found it interesting that he was born in a cave and was buried in a cave. I'm not getting into the female symolism of it, lol. :slap:

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:09 PM
Dont let hm fool you Hun! LOL

You know it's true! :angel: :angel: :angel:

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:09 PM
I agree with everything you say, MREG2.
But adults should also be able to reason that if I wish them Happy Holidays, I'm not trying to take Christ out of Christmas. I don't want to have to worry that some group is going to boycott my business because I choose to say Happy Holidays to my clients this time of the year. My contact with them is only over the phone, I have no idea if they celebrate Christmas or not. But I do, and in the spirit of the season, I want to send them good wishes in an all inclusive way.
Great point!! I am never offended when someone says Happy Holidays, They are just doing what is right for them. But for me I would rather say Merry christmas, Happy hanaka(yeah I know I suck at spelling), Happy Kwanza

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:10 PM
Uh-oh. What constitutes being bad?


Pissing off DK.... :D

Nova
12-21-2007, 04:11 PM
Neither one of you understand the greater truth....because it's a lie! Christ was not even born in December! The Bible even gives clues to when he was born which are not anywhere near December. WHY didn't they make his birth date closer to when it actually could have happened? Because they wanted to destroy the pagan celebrations! That is my point. Those petty historical details are what gave you all your Christmas.

And I just think it's kind of funny that all of the people who get upset about being PC actually feel like their holiday is being stolen from them when their ancestors stole it to begin with! Karma is a b*tch.

Merry Christmas & Happy Yule

To me, the greater truth of the Christmas story has nothing to do with the calendar. And I suspect Matthew and Luke would agree with me.

I don't think anyone here is arguing your points about the historical evolution of the holiday. But to the extent you are saying that neither the specific time nor ways we now celebrate "Christmas" were ordained by God, I agree with you.

Rino
12-21-2007, 04:11 PM
You are too kind!
No, he is Dark Knight :D

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:12 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Pissing off DK.... :D

You know it's true! :angel: :angel: :angel:

ember
12-21-2007, 04:13 PM
WOW!!! I have been trying to be nice but IMO this is just rude to say. I am not trying to get you to think different why cant you do the same?


I am no way trying to make anyone think differently. I am just telling the truth.
I have studied Theology extensively and it just always amazes how smart people can be so ignorant of the religion they have so much faith in.

I apolgize if I seemed rude. That was not my intent.

Nova
12-21-2007, 04:14 PM
I also have found it interesting that he was born in a cave and was buried in a cave. I'm not getting into the female symolism of it, lol. :slap:

Well, we know he was born of woman and that his body was cared for by women after his death. There is rather a unity of the "eternal feminine" when one adds the caves.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:14 PM
I agree with everything you say, MREG2.
But adults should also be able to reason that if I wish them Happy Holidays, I'm not trying to take Christ out of Christmas. I don't want to have to worry that some group is going to boycott my business because I choose to say Happy Holidays to my clients this time of the year. My contact with them is only over the phone, I have no idea if they celebrate Christmas or not. But I do, and in the spirit of the season, I want to send them good wishes in an all inclusive way.

True. I don't boycott businesses. Heck, who has the time to remember which company to boycott. I do good to remember if it's a day my kid has preschool. :p

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:15 PM
Great point!! I am never offended when someone says Happy Holidays, They are just doing what is right for them. But for me I would rather say Merry christmas, Happy hanaka(yeah I know I suck at spelling), Happy Kwanza


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Exactly!

absinthe
12-21-2007, 04:17 PM
Well, we know he was born of woman and that his body was cared for by women after his death. There is rather a unity of the "eternal feminine" when one adds the caves.

Interesting assessment!

Nova
12-21-2007, 04:18 PM
...But I do, and in the spirit of the season, I want to send them good wishes in an all inclusive way.

Exactly. Except for you and absinthe, nobody here has addressed my basic question. Which is: in the true spirit of Christmas, isn't "charity" more important than being right?

(Let me add that the same spirit of charity should prevent us from bashing those who wish everyone a Merry Christmas.)

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:18 PM
I am no way trying to make anyone think differently. I am just telling the truth.
I have studied Theology extensively and it just always amazes how smart people can be so ignorant of the religion they have so much faith in.

I apolgize if I seemed rude. That was not my intent.
I do appreciate you apolgizing, Thank you.

ETA I would also like to apolgize if I took you the wrong way
I just hope ember saw I deleted my post and am sorry I took her the wrong way. Sorry again

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:19 PM
Pissing off DK.... :D

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:20 PM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!


Love ya, DK!!

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:20 PM
[quote=Nova;1865324] Which is: in the true spirit of Christmas, isn't "charity" more important than being right?
quote]
I dont quite understand the question, sorry

GonzoReiter
12-21-2007, 04:22 PM
Which is: in the true spirit of Christmas, isn't "charity" more important than being right?

Which is more important: that Christmas is on their lips, or Jesus is in their hearts?

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:24 PM
Which is more important: that Christmas is on their lips, or Jesus is in their hearts?
Thank you I get it now. I would say jesus in their hearts, although it isnt showing today....

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:24 PM
Exactly. Except for you and absinthe, nobody here has addressed my basic question. Which is: in the true spirit of Christmas, isn't "charity" more important than being right?

(Let me add that the same spirit of charity should prevent us from bashing those who wish everyone a Merry Christmas.)

I don't see it as being "right" but that is just me. Treat those as you wish to be treated. Wish me whatever with a smile and sincerity and all is well. I just expect the same when I wish someone a merry christmas.

absinthe
12-21-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm leaving now, but I'm looking forward to reading more later. Peace out!

Nova
12-21-2007, 04:26 PM
[quote=Nova;1865324] Which is: in the true spirit of Christmas, isn't "charity" more important than being right?
quote]
I dont quite understand the question, sorry

I'm probably phrasing it poorly. I wondering why Christians (and those of us who still hold many Christian values) don't want to use the kindest, most considerate greeting possible. (Not that they should be required to do so, but why don't they want to do so?)

Isn't that a large part of what Christmas is about?

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:27 PM
[quote=Indy Gal;1865330]

I'm probably phrasing it poorly. I wondering why Christians (and those of us who still hold many Christian values) don't want to use the kindest, most considerate greeting possible. (Not that they should be required to do so, but why don't they want to do so?)

Isn't that a large part of what Christmas is about?
Very true and I do change it up, if I know that persons religion. Although I can see now how i cant possibly now everyones religion.

MREG2
12-21-2007, 04:27 PM
I'm leaving now, but I'm looking forward to reading more later. Peace out!


Me too....

Take care all!

GonzoReiter
12-21-2007, 04:29 PM
I'm probably phrasing it poorly. I wondering why Christians (and those of us who still hold many Christian values) don't want to use the kindest, most considerate greeting possible. (Not that they should be required to do so, but why don't they want to do so?)

Isn't that a large part of what Christmas is about?

You phrased it well, as usual...Nova

Dark Knight
12-21-2007, 04:29 PM
Which is more important: that Christmas is on their lips, or Jesus is in their hearts?

One should lead to the other. Jesus Himself said, those who do not acknowledge me in front of man, I will not acknowledge in front of my Father.

Indy Gal
12-21-2007, 04:51 PM
Things i have learned today
Maybe I shouldnt take posters so literally(?) Sorry again ember
Maybe it is okay to say happy holidays and not give up your faith in the process
change is okay...LOL

ember
12-21-2007, 05:07 PM
Things i have learned today
Maybe I shouldnt take posters so literally(?) Sorry again ember
Maybe it is okay to say happy holidays and not give up your faith in the process
change is okay...LOL


Hey Indy...no worries! A good discussion, even one that gets a bit heated, can be a wonderful & educational thing! I didn't know Christ was actually born in a cave! I always thought it was a manger. So you see, no harm done. That's the true beauty of the season...peace on Earth and goodwill towards all....no matter how you choose to say it!

Thank you for your apology... And a very Merry Christmas to you & yours!

Nova
12-21-2007, 05:09 PM
Things i have learned today
Maybe I shouldnt take posters so literally(?) Sorry again ember
Maybe it is okay to say happy holidays and not give up your faith in the process
change is okay...LOL

Oh, wow! If only we could all learn that!

blue_the_puppy
12-21-2007, 05:52 PM
In most cases, it isn't so much that you "offend" anyone, but it does serve as a reminder to non-Christians that they are excluded from certain celebrations. It's not YOUR fault that their beliefs and/or traditions exclude them, of course, but you might ask yourself what it is you really want to say.

If your purpose is to announce which holiday matters to you, by all means, wish everyone a Merry Christmas. It isn't a crime to do so and nobody has said it is. (The so-called "War on Christmas" is just another fake social issue employed by Fox News and the like to drum up unnecessary indignation.)

But if your intent is to wish joy to others on special days, then it might behoove you to include days that have meaning to them. "Happy Holidays" serves that purpose. Still no law; it's totally up to you.

(This is only an issue with strangers and casual acquaintances, BTW. Christians (including those, like me, who are "Christian" now only by cultural tradition) wish each other "Merry Christmas" all the time and nobody has said we must do otherwise.)

Two more points:

To respond to your link, the "season" of "Season's Greetings" is the season of winter holidays in which we now find ourselves. Such holidays include Christmas (not just Dec. 25, but also other days celebrated as Christmas in other countries, days that extend into January), Chanukah and Ramadan, but also New Year's Eve, Boxing Day (for our British and Canadian friends). The phrase predates any sort of political correctness; when I was a kid, it was used by Christians to refer to the holiday period from Christmas Eve (or even earlier) through New Year's Day.

If there is a danger of removing Christ from Christmas, it doesn't come from what you or I say to strangers during this month. The far greater threats to the "true meaning" of Christmas come from commercialism, a decline in church attendance, and the destruction of communities and extended families primarily by economic forces that compel greater mobility. None of these threats have anything to do with political correctness, nor will they be covered by Fox News, which is owned by those with a vested interest in distracting ordinary Americans from the issues that actually affect our lives.


:clap::clap::clap: !!!

i really dont think this "war on christmas" or "taking christmas away" deal exists. i think its a whole buncha hoopla over nothing. i was in target the other day and the cashier said "merry christmas" to me, we had a christmas party at work (and i work at a university, one of the most liberal institutions there is!), and we still get christmas off work, not any other winter holiday (though i wouldnt mind getting all those holidays off .. LOL!! :angel:)

no one can "take away" your holiday. christmas is not going to go away.
people celebrate other holidays this time of year, so of course some attention should be given to them too .. why does that matter?
the vast majority of americans celebrate christmas, so it will still be the biggest holiday of the season (and even if it wasnt .. SO WHAT?? isnt the fact that you and you family celebrate it all that matters? i hate the commercialization of christmas anyway.)

Maral
12-21-2007, 05:55 PM
:clap::clap::clap: !!!

i really dont think this "war on christmas" or "taking christmas away" deal exists. i think its a whole buncha hoopla over nothing. i was in target the other day and the cashier said "merry christmas" to me, we had a christmas party at work (and i work at a university, one of the most liberal institutions there is!), and we still get christmas off work, not any other winter holiday (though i wouldnt mind getting all those holidays off .. LOL!! :angel:)

no one can "take away" your holiday. christmas is not going to go away.
people celebrate other holidays this time of year, so of course some attention should be given to them too .. why does that matter?
the vast majority of americans celebrate christmas, so it will still be the biggest holiday of the season (and even if it wasnt .. SO WHAT?? isnt the fact that you and you family celebrate it all that matters? i hate the commercialization of christmas anyway.)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

csds703
12-21-2007, 06:04 PM
:clap::clap::clap: !!!

i really dont think this "war on christmas" or "taking christmas away" deal exists. i think its a whole buncha hoopla over nothing. i was in target the other day and the cashier said "merry christmas" to me, we had a christmas party at work (and i work at a university, one of the most liberal institutions there is!), and we still get christmas off work, not any other winter holiday (though i wouldnt mind getting all those holidays off .. LOL!! :angel:)

no one can "take away" your holiday. christmas is not going to go away.
people celebrate other holidays this time of year, so of course some attention should be given to them too .. why does that matter?
the vast majority of americans celebrate christmas, so it will still be the biggest holiday of the season (and even if it wasnt .. SO WHAT?? isnt the fact that you and you family celebrate it all that matters? i hate the commercialization of christmas anyway.)

Good post.:)

csds703
12-21-2007, 06:10 PM
Things i have learned today
Maybe I shouldnt take posters so literally(?) Sorry again ember
Maybe it is okay to say happy holidays and not give up your faith in the process
change is okay...LOL

That's a lesson we all need to reminded of.
Nobody is trying to take away your faith or anyone else's.
It's about accepting and respecting each other's right to believe and celebrate whatever they want.

Nova
12-21-2007, 06:44 PM
i really dont think this "war on christmas" or "taking christmas away" deal exists. i think its a whole buncha hoopla over nothing....

Welcome to WS, blue!

close_enough
12-21-2007, 06:45 PM
Actually, some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise and want to leave Christ out of the mess that has become "Christmas". It really is a big ruse...this whole thing about this season being about Christianity's golden child. It was orginally Yule, the time for winter solstice and celebration to usher in the longer days ahead...but again, the "heathens" had to convert.


This church know it's history. See link: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/xmas.htm



On another note..... here is a little history on why it is OK to use "X" instead of "Christ" for Christmas.

X-as-chi was associated with Christ long before X-as-cross could be, since the cross as a Christian symbol developed later. (The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys.)
While some see the spelling of Christmas as Xmas a threat, others see it as a way to honor the martyrs.

Yes, X is for "Chi"--the first letter of Christ's name in Greek and an accepted symbol for Christ for hundreds of years.

What's even more depressing is that all of the people who get so uptight about the use of X (and who are likely therefore Christian) are the ones who got it completely wrong.

What does that say about the modern Christian's knowledge about the history of their own faith?

Geesh! I'm not even a Christian and I know this! What are they teaching y'all in church?!


ETA: I still wish Merry Christmas to everyone I see because it just doesn't hold the same magic when I say anything else. Must be because of memories from my childhood when everyone wished a Merry Christmas! I miss those days.....

cool, & thanks for the lesson:)
i use Xmas quite a lot....

JanetElaine
12-21-2007, 07:02 PM
To respond to your link, the "season" of "Season's Greetings" is the season of winter holidays in which we now find ourselves. Such holidays include Christmas (not just Dec. 25, but also other days celebrated as Christmas in other countries, days that extend into January), Chanukah and Ramadan, but also New Year's Eve, Boxing Day (for our British and Canadian friends). The phrase predates any sort of political correctness; when I was a kid, it was used by Christians to refer to the holiday period from Christmas Eve (or even earlier) through New Year's Day.

This is exactly why I don't mind saying 'happy holidays' (I never say 'season's greetings', but only because that sounds so middle-ages, LOL). Whenever I mean just Christmas, I say 'Merry Christmas'. I don't even really give it too much thought though. Whatever I say, it's meant well, and if you want to skip that part and don't like what I said and be all grumpy about it, then that's for you to deal with.

I used to have muslem neighbors and we wished eachother 'Merry Christmas' both in person and with cards (I always got theirs first :blushing: ), and I have a Hindu friend who goes out of her way to find cards that just say 'Happy New Year'. It's all good with me. People aren't obligated to wish me anything, so if they do, no matter how they do it or which words they use, I appreciate their thinking of me. :)

Marthatex
12-21-2007, 07:42 PM
[QUOTE=Indy Gal;1865330]

I'm probably phrasing it poorly. I wondering why Christians (and those of us who still hold many Christian values) don't want to use the kindest, most considerate greeting possible. (Not that they should be required to do so, but why don't they want to do so?)
Isn't that a large part of what Christmas is about?

Well said.

I'm alot more bothered by the emphasis on commercialism and the sometimes rude hustle and bustle as we try frantically to find the best bargains and just the right present for everyone, than I am about what type of greeting I give.

Last week I went to hear a beautiful choral group singing variations of different Christmas Carols and some classical Yule music. It was very inspiring.

What would Jesus want? Keep it simple; that's what I think.

Nova
12-21-2007, 07:50 PM
This is exactly why I don't mind saying 'happy holidays' (I never say 'season's greetings', but only because that sounds so middle-ages, LOL). Whenever I mean just Christmas, I say 'Merry Christmas'. I don't even really give it too much thought though. Whatever I say, it's meant well, and if you want to skip that part and don't like what I said and be all grumpy about it, then that's for you to deal with.

I used to have muslem neighbors and we wished eachother 'Merry Christmas' both in person and with cards (I always got theirs first :blushing: ), and I have a Hindu friend who goes out of her way to find cards that just say 'Happy New Year'. It's all good with me. People aren't obligated to wish me anything, so if they do, no matter how they do it or which words they use, I appreciate their thinking of me. :)

Nice post, Janet, and great point about neighbors and friends. I have various customs with people I know well. (Including one Jewish friend with whom I had an argument on this subject nearly 30 years ago. Every Christmas morning since, I have tracked her down wherever she is and phoned her to wish her a Merry Christmas. Of course, she knows it's our "thing" and takes no offense.)

As I said somewhere above, the only real issue to me is how do I want to greet strangers and casual acquaintances (those whose religious preferences I don't know).

GonzoReiter
12-21-2007, 08:16 PM
This is exactly why I don't mind saying 'happy holidays' (I never say 'season's greetings', but only because that sounds so middle-ages, LOL). Whenever I mean just Christmas, I say 'Merry Christmas'. I don't even really give it too much thought though. Whatever I say, it's meant well, and if you want to skip that part and don't like what I said and be all grumpy about it, then that's for you to deal with.

I'm not overly sentimental by nature but I do have a soft spot for the Christmasy "peace on earth, good will towards men" sentiment ... we certainly need more of that everywhere. But the "War on Christmas" baloney points in the other direction ... "Let's not feel charitable. Let's feel aggrieved!"

One clear effect of the "War on Christmas" nonsense was, and is, to further aggravate the already overblown sense of victimization on the part of those who are interpellated and hence influenced by some modern media.

reb
12-21-2007, 08:44 PM
once again...

winter holidays have been happening in just about every culture since the dawn of civilization, and long before christianity was shoved down peoples' throats by the all-powerful religious leaders. the winter holiday we know of as 'christmas' was a pagan winter holiday LONG before christians took it and christianized it. it was just another way for them to get on the good side of the masses.

so there is plenty of room for ALL aspects of this holiday (which means different things to different people).. the pagan/ secular one, the christian one, the jewish one, etc... and OK, if blacks want to separate themselves and have their OWN exclusive 'black folks only' holiday, then there's kwaanza too...

however i do agree that the politically-correct thing gets a bit tiresome... it seems everyone today is offended by SOMETHING that someone does or doesn't do...! and it does seem like the country used to be so much more unified.... and now we seem to be splintering apart. so.. in some ways it's good that everyone can do their thing. on the other hand,, what happened to the great 'melting pot'....???

btw.. i do say 'X-mas' because i'm not a christian and it sounds secular..... although the christians out there oughtta know that 'X' IS an old symbol for jesus christ.

Nova
12-21-2007, 09:17 PM
...if blacks want to separate themselves and have their OWN exclusive 'black folks only' holiday, then there's kwaanza too...

Whites and others aren't excluded from Kwanzaa, if they want to celebrate it.

The African Americans I know who celebrate it, do so in addition to Christmas. It's based in African cultural traditions that may seem more relevant to people whose African ancestors had no knowledge of Scandinavian reindeer, snow and sleighs.

As everyone knows, I should think, the vast majority of African Americans are devout Christians and honor the birth of Christ.

It all makes perfect sense to me.

Nova
12-21-2007, 09:25 PM
I'm not overly sentimental by nature but I do have a soft spot for the Christmasy "peace on earth, good will towards men" sentiment ... we certainly need more of that everywhere. But the "War on Christmas" baloney points in the other direction ... "Let's not feel charitable. Let's feel aggrieved!"

One clear effect of the "War on Christmas" nonsense was, and is, to further aggravate the already overblown sense of victimization on the part of those who are interpellated and hence influenced by some modern media.

Perhaps we need a new Christmas story that celebrates "victimization" as the new Spirit of Christmas. Here's a brief synopsis:

Mary sues on the ground that the temporary housing she was given violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Instead of shepherds, PETA reps storm the stable to liberate the sheep from the unfair treatment the poor beasts received in ancient Palestine. As for the angels, they are obviously transgendered and have any number of grievances on that score. The magi? Cross-dressers fleeing persecution in their homeland. Or the founders of a new Men's Group that promotes wandering in all-male bands to allow its members to reconnect with traditional masculinity outside the sissifying influence of mothers and wives.

Joseph? Well, he goes on Maury Povich for a DNA test. And we all know how that turns out...

csds703
12-21-2007, 09:28 PM
Perhaps we need a new Christmas story that celebrates "victimization" as the new Spirit of Christmas. Here's a brief synopsis:

Mary sues on the ground that the temporary housing she was given violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Instead of shepherds, PETA reps storm the stable to liberate the sheep from the unfair treatment the poor beasts received in ancient Palestine. As for the angels, they are obviously transgendered and have any number of grievances on that score. The magi? Cross-dressers fleeing persecution in their homeland. Or the founders of a new Men's Group that promotes wandering in all-male bands to allow its members to reconnect with traditional masculinity outside the sissifying influence of mothers and wives.

Joseph? Well, he goes on Maury Povich for a DNA test. And we all know how that turns out...

The whole thing made me laugh, but that last line just cracked me up.:)

txsvicki
12-21-2007, 10:28 PM
Bumping this up because I agree with you and have known this for years now and feel that it is horribly pagan. Actually, I didn't celebrate the holidays for awhile and wouldn't now except for kids that aren't mine expect presents, but I even worry about doing that on the one certain day. Christmas has absolutely no religious meaning at all to me. I'll probably get flamed, but this is my opinion.

Actually, some Christians have realized that Christmas is truly a pagan holiday in disguise and want to leave Christ out of the mess that has become "Christmas". It really is a big ruse...this whole thing about this season being about Christianity's golden child. It was orginally Yule, the time for winter solstice and celebration to usher in the longer days ahead...but again, the "heathens" had to convert.


This church know it's history. See link: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/xmas.htm



On another note..... here is a little history on why it is OK to use "X" instead of "Christ" for Christmas.

X-as-chi was associated with Christ long before X-as-cross could be, since the cross as a Christian symbol developed later. (The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys.)
While some see the spelling of Christmas as Xmas a threat, others see it as a way to honor the martyrs.

Yes, X is for "Chi"--the first letter of Christ's name in Greek and an accepted symbol for Christ for hundreds of years.

What's even more depressing is that all of the people who get so uptight about the use of X (and who are likely therefore Christian) are the ones who got it completely wrong.

What does that say about the modern Christian's knowledge about the history of their own faith?

Geesh! I'm not even a Christian and I know this! What are they teaching y'all in church?!


ETA: I still wish Merry Christmas to everyone I see because it just doesn't hold the same magic when I say anything else. Must be because of memories from my childhood when everyone wished a Merry Christmas! I miss those days.....

Glow
12-22-2007, 12:33 AM
Things i have learned today
change is okay...LOL

Once again, I applaud your open mindedness. Many of us could learn from you.

philamena
12-22-2007, 12:45 AM
This happened near me last night:
http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=7532225

southcitymom
12-22-2007, 09:13 AM
I know there's silliness everywhere but I don't think anything is being removed from the Christmas season. I was saying Happy Holidays and/or Season's Greetings and/or Merry Christmas 35 years ago - same as today. Big deal.

My child goes to a public school where they did Christmas stuff (Christmas trees, reindeers, Santa, caroling around the neighborhood singing religious and non-religious songs, etc...etc..) for most of December. Hannakah and Kwanza also got some attention and that's fine too.

This season is what we make it and feel it to be in our hearts. I don't feel like anyone is trying to dilute it for me - heck, they couldn't dilute it for me if they did try! I don't care how someone greets me in a store or in a card - it's nice that they're greeting me at all. I just love Christmas and am glad that it's here!

Indy Gal
12-22-2007, 09:56 AM
Thanks to all the new posters for your comments, you really are teaching me something!!

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 10:06 AM
I'm curious...

Has anyone here personally experienced an offended reaction when wishing someone else "Merry Christmas"?

It occurs to me that in all my life, I have never even come close to seeing anyone offended by being wished a Merry Christmas! I've read about the "PC Idiots." I've heard about the "deep offense" taken by being the recipient of this wish, but I have never witnessed it myself.

What about you all?

Indy Gal
12-22-2007, 10:08 AM
I dont think I ever have IM.

Maral
12-22-2007, 10:09 AM
I'm curious...

Has anyone here personally experienced an offended reaction when wishing someone else "Merry Christmas"?

It occurs to me that in all my life, I have never even come close to seeing anyone offended by being wished a Merry Christmas! I've read about the "PC Idiots." I've heard about the "deep offense" taken by being the recipient of this wish, but I have never witnessed it myself.

What about you all?
IrishMist, I came back to this thread to ask the very same question. I guess it's true about what they say about "great minds......", lol.

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 10:12 AM
IrishMist, I came back to this thread to ask the very same question. I guess it's true about what they say about "great minds......", lol.

Isn't it weird when that happens??

It's funny. We've had this discussion before on WS, (at least some variation of it), but I'm not sure what made the question pop into my head this time.

Have you ever witnessed that reaction, Maral?

southcitymom
12-22-2007, 10:41 AM
Isn't it weird when that happens??

It's funny. We've had this discussion before on WS, (at least some variation of it), but I'm not sure what made the question pop into my head this time.

Have you ever witnessed that reaction, Maral?

Hell no, I've never witnessed this reaction - and though I'm sure it exists, I don't think it exists much!

My youngest son's school has a number of Muslim, Jewish and AA families I'm friendly with and I gave Christmas cards to all their kids and have said Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays (honestly, I just don't censor myself - I say whatever is on my tongue) to them in passing and they're always lovely! One of the Muslim Moms said - "We don't celebrate Christmas of course, but we love having the time off with family and thanks for the cookies!"

All this hullabaloo is a tempest in a teapot. Anyone who reacts "poorly" to Merry Christmas is just a Scrooge - and Scrooges have been around since Christmas itself.

On a personal note - Hey Irish! I hope you're having a restful weekend! :blowkiss:

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 10:45 AM
Hell no, I've never witnessed this reaction - and though I'm sure it exists, I don't think it exists much!

My youngest son's school has a number of Muslim, Jewish and AA families I'm friendly with and I gave Christmas cards to all their kids and have said Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays (honestly, I just don't censor myself - I say whatever is on my tongue) to them in passing and they're always lovely! One of the Muslim Moms said - "We don't celebrate Christmas of course, but we love having the time off with family and thanks for the cookies!"

All this hullabaloo is a tempest in a teapot. Anyone who reacts "poorly" to Merry Christmas is just a Scrooge - and Scrooges have been around since Christmas itself.

On a personal note - Hey Irish! I hope you're having a restful weekend! :blowkiss:

Hi SCM! So far, so good! :D
Love, IrishMist <--- who is still in her jammies at 10:45 am! :woohoo: :woohoo: :D :D :D

Maral
12-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Isn't it weird when that happens??

It's funny. We've had this discussion before on WS, (at least some variation of it), but I'm not sure what made the question pop into my head this time.

Have you ever witnessed that reaction, Maral?
No, I never have. But I have witnessed the opposite side. Just a few days ago, I witnessed a lady tell a salesclerk who wished her "Happy Holidays" that she was a Christian that celebrated Christmas and if she could not say Merry Christmas to her then she should just keep her mouth shut. I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Indy Gal
12-22-2007, 10:50 AM
No, I never have. But I have witnessed the opposite side. Just a few days ago, I witnessed a lady tell a salesclerk who wished her "Happy Holidays" that she was a Christian that celebrated Christmas and if she could not say Merry Christmas to her then she should just keep her mouth shut. I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing.
IMO that is just wrong. These people have been told what to say and not say. Poor sales lady!

IM I am still in my jammies too and yes its 1050 am here too...LOL

southcitymom
12-22-2007, 11:18 AM
No, I never have. But I have witnessed the opposite side. Just a few days ago, I witnessed a lady tell a salesclerk who wished her "Happy Holidays" that she was a Christian that celebrated Christmas and if she could not say Merry Christmas to her then she should just keep her mouth shut. I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Gah - there's the Christ-like spirit coming through!

Honestly, I've never witnessed that either in public, though I've heard some private grumblings!

southcitymom
12-22-2007, 11:19 AM
Hi SCM! So far, so good! :D
Love, IrishMist <--- who is still in her jammies at 10:45 am! :woohoo: :woohoo: :D :D :D

Excellent!;) I've missed you - you've been working while I've been being a slacker. To check out how dirty we've all been getting in your absence, head to the Parking Lot!

csds703
12-22-2007, 11:32 AM
I have never been offended when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas. I just respond in kind.
I am jewish and have raised my daughter in the jewish faith. My ex husband is also jewish. We are both remarried and have both married Catholics. My current husband does celebrate Christmas at our house with his girls and we also celebrate Chanukah.
My ex husband does not celebrate Chanukah anymore.
My daughter gets offended when her dad wishes her a Merry Christmas, and never even acknowledges Chanukah.

JanetElaine
12-22-2007, 11:39 AM
The only thing for me that comes closes to encountering someone who was 'offended' by me wishing them Merry Christmas, is my Hindu friend whom I mentioned earlier. Although she wasn't offended by me wishing her Merry Christmas. But at some point in our teens she said she was going to get more serious about her Hindu faith and that she wasn't going to celebrate other religion's holidays anymore. It was somewhere before Christmas. That year she started sending out the Happy New Year cards and I didn't wish her a MC (sorry, getting too long LOL) that year. But that was natural, between friends, nobody was offended or felt awkward about it.

I have yet to meet the first person going into a rage (or even frowning ;)) about me saying Merry Christmas, or to be fair, the first person who gets mad when I say Happy Holidays. If and when I do I'll be back here. LOL

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 11:40 AM
I have never been offended when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas. I just respond in kind.
I am jewish and have raised my daughter in the jewish faith. My ex husband is also jewish. We are both remarried and have both married Catholics. My current husband does celebrate Christmas at our house with his girls and we also celebrate Chanukah.
My ex husband does not celebrate Chanukah anymore.
My daughter gets offended when her dad wishes her a Merry Christmas, and never even acknowledges Chanukah.

I'm thinking that speaks more to his basic lack of respect for his daughter more than the actual words used?

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 11:42 AM
Excellent!;) I've missed you - you've been working while I've been being a slacker. To check out how dirty we've all been getting in your absence, head to the Parking Lot!

I see how you guys are... wait till I'm not around to have all the fun! :D

I'll go check it out :D

And Indy Gal, thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one being a bit on the lazy side this morning... :) Though I'm going with the description of "cozy and relaxed." LOL!

Paladin
12-22-2007, 11:42 AM
Wow, looks like I missed alot. Thanks for the Christmas wishses, Nova.

csds703
12-22-2007, 11:57 AM
I'm thinking that speaks more to his basic lack of respect for his daughter more than the actual words used?

That is exactly what I told her, but I said he doesn't respect himself.
She was invited to his house last year during Passover. His wife served shrimp scampi, even though my daughter tries to keep kosher for Passover. I don't know how she got sooo religious LOL.
His wife then asked my daughter to say grace. When she told her that didn't make her comfortable, and that she would just prefer to observe, his wife became very angry and she came home very upset.

I have taught my daughter to be respectful of other people's beliefs and customs. We have always included both sets of kids in all our holiday traditions, and all our girls have enjoyed learning about each other's beliefs.

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 12:01 PM
That is exactly what I told her, but I said he doesn't respect himself.
She was invited to his house last year during Passover. His wife served shrimp scampi, even though my daughter tries to keep kosher for Passover. I don't know how she got sooo religious LOL.
His wife then asked my daughter to say grace. When she told her that didn't make her comfortable, and that she would just prefer to observe, his wife became very angry and she came home very upset.

I have taught my daughter to be respectful of other people's beliefs and customs. We have always included both sets of kids in all our holiday traditions, and all our girls have enjoyed learning about each other's beliefs.

Sounds like the perfect opportunity for a life lesson. How to respect and be true to yourself in the face of peer pressure. It never fails to amaze me that some parents will put their kids (or step-kids) in such positions.

csds703
12-22-2007, 12:15 PM
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for a life lesson. How to respect and be true to yourself in the face of peer pressure. It never fails to amaze me that some parents will put their kids (or step-kids) in such positions.

OT but welcome back. I've missed you. Hope everything is ok with you.

Back to Christmas, I have always felt that this time of the year should be about tolerance and acceptance and sharing/learning about different cultures.
My brother teaches in a city school, and he invites parents in to help teach about the different holidays that the different children celebrate at this time of the year.
Each parent brings a book explaining the holiday that is read to the class, then they sample different traditional foods.
A different holiday is covered on different days. The kids love it and everybody gets to feel special.

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 12:25 PM
OT but welcome back. I've missed you. Hope everything is ok with you.

Back to Christmas, I have always felt that this time of the year should be about tolerance and acceptance and sharing/learning about different cultures.
My brother teaches in a city school, and he invites parents in to help teach about the different holidays that the different children celebrate at this time of the year.
Each parent brings a book explaining the holiday that is read to the class, then they sample different traditional foods.
A different holiday is covered on different days. The kids love it and everybody gets to feel special.

Thanks for the welcome back. I started a new job, and I'm trying desperately to get adjusted. Mostly, I've just been REALLY tired. :D I won't be on as much, though, because I work Monday-Friday.

I love the idea of teaching about the different holidays! IMO, that is an excellent idea. Sadly, I think there are too many people in this country that would find fault in those activities. That somehow, Christmas is harmed by including these other holidays.

csds703
12-22-2007, 12:46 PM
Thanks for the welcome back. I started a new job, and I'm trying desperately to get adjusted. Mostly, I've just been REALLY tired. :D I won't be on as much, though, because I work Monday-Friday.

I love the idea of teaching about the different holidays! IMO, that is an excellent idea. Sadly, I think there are too many people in this country that would find fault in those activities. That somehow, Christmas is harmed by including these other holidays.

Congrats on the new job!

I have to say that I am actually confused by the whole Merry Christmas vs Happy Holiday debate.
I don't really understand why someone is offended by Happy Holidays. If I was Christian, I wouldn't expect someone to know that just by looking at me. At the same time, to wish someone Merry Christmas who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior makes that an empty greeting especially for those who are concerned that Christ has been taken out of Christmas.
When my stepdaughters were little, they only knew of Christmas as Santa Claus and presents. It was me who took them to midnight mass and explained why they were really celebrating Christmas.
I really don't understand this. Maybe somebody can explain it to me.

IrishMist
12-22-2007, 01:00 PM
Congrats on the new job!

Thanks, csds! :blowkiss:

reb
12-22-2007, 01:42 PM
actually.... it seems like in the old days, the christian christmas and the non-christian yuletide, the pagan winter holiday/winter solstice, and the gift-giving st. nicholas... and all that seemed to blend together seamlessly. what has really ruined it above all else, is the relentless, shameless, greedy, ultra-capitalistic commercialism that has really taken over. which is why i boycott that whole part of it altogether.

reb
12-22-2007, 01:43 PM
what?! so now people are offended by 'happy holidays' too...??? LOL.. i must have missed that part. good grief! how about 'have a nice december'... is that safe enough?

Paladin
12-22-2007, 03:20 PM
what?! so now people are offended by 'happy holidays' too...??? LOL.. i must have missed that part. good grief! how about 'have a nice december'... is that safe enough?

I think some people who like to be wished "Happy Holidays" resent it because they'd rather be wished a "Merry Christmas."

JDB
12-22-2007, 06:49 PM
Did not read this entire thread. But being a Preacher kid the thought of taking Christ out has always upset me.

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:45 PM
This is exactly why I don't mind saying 'happy holidays' (I never say 'season's greetings', but only because that sounds so middle-ages, LOL). Whenever I mean just Christmas, I say 'Merry Christmas'. I don't even really give it too much thought though. Whatever I say, it's meant well, and if you want to skip that part and don't like what I said and be all grumpy about it, then that's for you to deal with.

I used to have muslem neighbors and we wished eachother 'Merry Christmas' both in person and with cards (I always got theirs first :blushing: ), and I have a Hindu friend who goes out of her way to find cards that just say 'Happy New Year'. It's all good with me. People aren't obligated to wish me anything, so if they do, no matter how they do it or which words they use, I appreciate their thinking of me. :)


Yes!!! :clap:

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:47 PM
Perhaps we need a new Christmas story that celebrates "victimization" as the new Spirit of Christmas. Here's a brief synopsis:

Mary sues on the ground that the temporary housing she was given violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Instead of shepherds, PETA reps storm the stable to liberate the sheep from the unfair treatment the poor beasts received in ancient Palestine. As for the angels, they are obviously transgendered and have any number of grievances on that score. The magi? Cross-dressers fleeing persecution in their homeland. Or the founders of a new Men's Group that promotes wandering in all-male bands to allow its members to reconnect with traditional masculinity outside the sissifying influence of mothers and wives.

Joseph? Well, he goes on Maury Povich for a DNA test. And we all know how that turns out...


LMAO!!!!

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:50 PM
I'm curious...

Has anyone here personally experienced an offended reaction when wishing someone else "Merry Christmas"?

It occurs to me that in all my life, I have never even come close to seeing anyone offended by being wished a Merry Christmas! I've read about the "PC Idiots." I've heard about the "deep offense" taken by being the recipient of this wish, but I have never witnessed it myself.

What about you all?


Nope. Can't say I have. Everyone that I have said Merry Christmas too smiles and says the same thing back.

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:52 PM
No, I never have. But I have witnessed the opposite side. Just a few days ago, I witnessed a lady tell a salesclerk who wished her "Happy Holidays" that she was a Christian that celebrated Christmas and if she could not say Merry Christmas to her then she should just keep her mouth shut. I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing.


Wha..???? Your kidding me. I would have been embarrassed for her.... :bang:

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:53 PM
IMO that is just wrong. These people have been told what to say and not say. Poor sales lady!

IM I am still in my jammies too and yes its 1050 am here too...LOL


Well are you and IM the lucky ones. We were driving to my hometown an hour away to take my dad out to lunch for Christmas. <sigh>

MREG2
12-22-2007, 07:56 PM
what?! so now people are offended by 'happy holidays' too...??? LOL.. i must have missed that part. good grief! how about 'have a nice december'... is that safe enough?


No. And don't even look at them either... :crazy:

Marthatex
12-22-2007, 08:00 PM
I'm afraid to say anything now, after thinking about this subject too much.

I realize that usually I say Merry Christmas to friends, at parties or family - I usually don't say it to perfect strangers anyway.

The fact is that the older people get, Christmas is more a bittersweet time, or a time of reminiscing about those you have lost, even while sharing a dinner or presents with family. What if you said "Merry Christmas" to someone and it turns out they just lost their wife, or a son or daughter?

One guy I know; his wife just filed for divorce a couple of months ago. What about someone who has cancer? Are they merry?

Today I did some last minute shopping; went to Barnes & Noble and the checkout person said, "Merry Christmas" - I said, "thank you; same to you".
Tonight I ate Thai food and the cute little Vietnamese man said, "Merry Christmas". Looks like many businesses around here, especially this close to the actual day, are going with "Merry Christmas". But "Happy Holidays" would not offend me in any way.

csds703
12-22-2007, 08:19 PM
I'm afraid to say anything now, after thinking about this subject too much.

I realize that usually I say Merry Christmas to friends, at parties or family - I usually don't say it to perfect strangers anyway.

The fact is that the older people get, Christmas is more a bittersweet time, or a time of reminiscing about those you have lost, even while sharing a dinner or presents with family. What if you said "Merry Christmas" to someone and it turns out they just lost their wife, or a son or daughter?

One guy I know; his wife just filed for divorce a couple of months ago. What about someone who has cancer? Are they merry?

Today I did some last minute shopping; went to Barnes & Noble and the checkout person said, "Merry Christmas" - I said, "thank you; same to you".
Tonight I ate Thai food and the cute little Vietnamese man said, "Merry Christmas". Looks like many businesses around here, especially this close to the actual day, are going with "Merry Christmas". But "Happy Holidays" would not offend me in any way.

This is what I think.
No, these people are probably not merry. The important thing is to think about them on that day. Maybe they can be included in your holiday plans. Maybe they just need a phonecall saying, I'm thinking about you today. To honor the spirit of Christmas is to think about others and to be grateful for what you do have.
That is the message from me (your jewish friend) LOL.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and Everybody else here who celebrates it.
Happy Holidays to the rest of us. Just trying to be PC.;)
Hope everybody here at WS has a wonderful New Year!

Texana
12-22-2007, 09:39 PM
I'm afraid to say anything now, after thinking about this subject too much.

I realize that usually I say Merry Christmas to friends, at parties or family - I usually don't say it to perfect strangers anyway.

The fact is that the older people get, Christmas is more a bittersweet time, or a time of reminiscing about those you have lost, even while sharing a dinner or presents with family. What if you said "Merry Christmas" to someone and it turns out they just lost their wife, or a son or daughter?

One guy I know; his wife just filed for divorce a couple of months ago. What about someone who has cancer? Are they merry?

Today I did some last minute shopping; went to Barnes & Noble and the checkout person said, "Merry Christmas" - I said, "thank you; same to you".
Tonight I ate Thai food and the cute little Vietnamese man said, "Merry Christmas". Looks like many businesses around here, especially this close to the actual day, are going with "Merry Christmas". But "Happy Holidays" would not offend me in any way.

Martha, I am like you, either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, I am glad to hear it. I love to hear it from my friends who do not celebrate Christmas, when they generously offer it in gracious recognition of my beliefs.

But when it comes to someone wishing someone else Merry Christmas who may be suffering...the original message of Christmas is rejoicing not so much in the good things of health, wealth, and being with loved ones...but triumph over the darker and not so good things.

Think of it--a baby born to a mother whose betrothed husband almost left her alone in her shame. A baby born a citizen of a small country, ruled by a powerful and wealthy nation, so powerful that when the smaller country's ruler felt threatened by the birth of this child--a prophesied king--the ruler could put to death all the little babies and children under two years without hesitation.A baby whose birth gifts included myrhh, for his own death.

We have come to expect that Merry Christmas is accompanied by comfort always, forgetting the generations that said the phrase while enduring wars and suffering and hardships.

I believe we must celebrate Christmas not only as thanks for the blessings we have received, but as a celebration of the triumph over earthly suffering that Christ brings.

So, Merry Christmas, indeed.

Marthatex
12-22-2007, 10:11 PM
This is what I think.
No, these people are probably not merry. The important thing is to think about them on that day. Maybe they can be included in your holiday plans. Maybe they just need a phonecall saying, I'm thinking about you today. To honor the spirit of Christmas is to think about others and to be grateful for what you do have.
That is the message from me (your jewish friend) LOL.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and Everybody else here who celebrates it.
Happy Holidays to the rest of us. Just trying to be PC.;)
Hope everybody here at WS has a wonderful New Year!

Well, sure. In fact I had not sent Christmas cards the last couple of years, but this year I DID because I just wanted to say "thanks" and Happy Holidays to all the people who really were a source of help and strength to us during my husband's cancer and treatment.

I feel very thankful this year and certainly want to share it with others. I think the way we celebrate the holidays, whether Christian, Jewish or others can be as personal as we want our family and celebration to be. Has anyone ever gone through all the motions and tried to do everything, and felt somehow deflated or disappointed? I sure have; and that's why I try to keep things as simple as possible, for my own sanity - and who wants a grouchy wife/mother who waited in line for hours to get the "right" present?

So "Merry Holiday, and Ho Ho; I mean Ha ha ha"; Peace on Earth and Goodwill to Men; that's the one I like.

southcitymom
12-22-2007, 10:16 PM
Martha, I am like you, either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, I am glad to hear it. I love to hear it from my friends who do not celebrate Christmas, when they generously offer it in gracious recognition of my beliefs.

But when it comes to someone wishing someone else Merry Christmas who may be suffering...the original message of Christmas is rejoicing not so much in the good things of health, wealth, and being with loved ones...but triumph over the darker and not so good things.

Think of it--a baby born to a mother whose betrothed husband almost left her alone in her shame. A baby born a citizen of a small country, ruled by a powerful and wealthy nation, so powerful that when the smaller country's ruler felt threatened by the birth of this child--a prophesied king--the ruler could put to death all the little babies and children under two years without hesitation.A baby whose birth gifts included myrhh, for his own death.

We have come to expect that Merry Christmas is accompanied by comfort always, forgetting the generations that said the phrase while enduring wars and suffering and hardships.

I believe we must celebrate Christmas not only as thanks for the blessings we have received, but as a celebration of the triumph over earthly suffering that Christ brings.

So, Merry Christmas, indeed.

Beautiful post, Texana!

csds703
12-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Beautiful post, Texana!

I agree. It is very touching.

Marthatex
12-22-2007, 10:18 PM
Martha, I am like you, either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, I am glad to hear it. I love to hear it from my friends who do not celebrate Christmas, when they generously offer it in gracious recognition of my beliefs.

But when it comes to someone wishing someone else Merry Christmas who may be suffering...the original message of Christmas is rejoicing not so much in the good things of health, wealth, and being with loved ones...but triumph over the darker and not so good things.

Think of it--a baby born to a mother whose betrothed husband almost left her alone in her shame. A baby born a citizen of a small country, ruled by a powerful and wealthy nation, so powerful that when the smaller country's ruler felt threatened by the birth of this child--a prophesied king--the ruler could put to death all the little babies and children under two years without hesitation.A baby whose birth gifts included myrhh, for his own death.

We have come to expect that Merry Christmas is accompanied by comfort always, forgetting the generations that said the phrase while enduring wars and suffering and hardships.

I believe we must celebrate Christmas not only as thanks for the blessings we have received, but as a celebration of the triumph over earthly suffering that Christ brings.

So, Merry Christmas, indeed.

A very nice reminder there; unfortunately it seems as a society we get a little too caught up in the commercial and "feel good" aspect. Oh well, at least alot of giving goes on as well.

Texana
12-22-2007, 10:37 PM
A very nice reminder there; unfortunately it seems as a society we get a little too caught up in the commercial and "feel good" aspect. Oh well, at least alot of giving goes on as well.

Mwahh (air kisse) to you, Martha. It is darn hard to not get caught up in the commercial aspects as it's just about beat into our brains 24/7 every year.

I had to run to my husband for an intervention this afternoon, all the gifts were finished, but I still felt the urge to get "one more" thing bought.

In the Houston area, we find ourselves complaining if the weather is not "Christmas-y" enough. Think of it--we are so blessed overall, that we complain if the weather, which is perfectly normal for this area of the country, is not wintery!

And I don't think that is such a bad thing, really--but this thread has made me realize that it perhaps weather, or any other physical circumstance, is more of a reason to celebrate Christmas, than a hindrance.

Tiny Tim would surely agree.

Marthatex
12-23-2007, 11:36 AM
Mwahh (air kisse) to you, Martha. It is darn hard to not get caught up in the commercial aspects as it's just about beat into our brains 24/7 every year.

I had to run to my husband for an intervention this afternoon, all the gifts were finished, but I still felt the urge to get "one more" thing bought.

In the Houston area, we find ourselves complaining if the weather is not "Christmas-y" enough. Think of it--we are so blessed overall, that we complain if the weather, which is perfectly normal for this area of the country, is not wintery!

And I don't think that is such a bad thing, really--but this thread has made me realize that it perhaps weather, or any other physical circumstance, is more of a reason to celebrate Christmas, than a hindrance.

Tiny Tim would surely agree.

Well, it might be cool enough this year!!

Well, here I am on Sunday morning needing to be at the grocery store. Naturally I don't have any ingredients for the things I must cook tomorrow.

I too, will be running into town to get a gift certificate from the maternity store for my daughter. Almost all presents are wrapped tho!

We should just be thankful if we are alive and healthy!!!

(but why does all this Christmas cheer seem to be left to the women in the house?) btw I was proud of my son; his neighborhood went together and adopted a family - so he had to go out and buy alot of diapers lol (he's 27)

KatK
12-23-2007, 02:27 PM
<snip>
I'd rather see a society where Jewish people wish me a Happy Hanukkah, or where an African wishes me a Happy Kwanzaa, or where an Atheist can just not wish me anything at all, all in addition to people wishing each other a Merry Christmas. I would be honored if any person wished me one of these things.

The athiest would wish you a Happy New Year since that is non-religious, and they also might wish you a happy Independence day in December if you happened to be in Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_of_Finland). ;) I agree with you to a certain extent. Certainly I recieve the greetings I get with Grace, because I know usually the person means well. It is if the person is defiant and "in my face" about it and it isn't even December (This happened to me just after Thanksgiving this year.) yet that I raise my eyebrows over it. (And am tempted to wish them a Happy Yule, a Happy Hannukkah, and a Happy Kwanzaa to boot, but I don't. I just wish them a Merry Christmas when it comes, and a safe New Year's.) We don't see those of Jewish faith saying "I'm Jewish, and I celebrate Chanukah, so you'd better say Happy Chanukah to me or I will take offense!" to store clerks do we? :waitasec: Why do Christians get to insist on this, when the month of December has more than one religious holiday? This nation has no officially condoned religion legally, because our Forefathers were trying to escape State Religion when they came to live here.

MREG2
12-23-2007, 04:21 PM
Martha, I am like you, either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, I am glad to hear it. I love to hear it from my friends who do not celebrate Christmas, when they generously offer it in gracious recognition of my beliefs.

But when it comes to someone wishing someone else Merry Christmas who may be suffering...the original message of Christmas is rejoicing not so much in the good things of health, wealth, and being with loved ones...but triumph over the darker and not so good things.

Think of it--a baby born to a mother whose betrothed husband almost left her alone in her shame. A baby born a citizen of a small country, ruled by a powerful and wealthy nation, so powerful that when the smaller country's ruler felt threatened by the birth of this child--a prophesied king--the ruler could put to death all the little babies and children under two years without hesitation.A baby whose birth gifts included myrhh, for his own death.

We have come to expect that Merry Christmas is accompanied by comfort always, forgetting the generations that said the phrase while enduring wars and suffering and hardships.

I believe we must celebrate Christmas not only as thanks for the blessings we have received, but as a celebration of the triumph over earthly suffering that Christ brings.

So, Merry Christmas, indeed.


:clap:

Well said indeed!

Dark Knight
12-23-2007, 06:39 PM
Martha, I am like you, either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, I am glad to hear it. I love to hear it from my friends who do not celebrate Christmas, when they generously offer it in gracious recognition of my beliefs.

But when it comes to someone wishing someone else Merry Christmas who may be suffering...the original message of Christmas is rejoicing not so much in the good things of health, wealth, and being with loved ones...but triumph over the darker and not so good things.

Think of it--a baby born to a mother whose betrothed husband almost left her alone in her shame. A baby born a citizen of a small country, ruled by a powerful and wealthy nation, so powerful that when the smaller country's ruler felt threatened by the birth of this child--a prophesied king--the ruler could put to death all the little babies and children under two years without hesitation.A baby whose birth gifts included myrhh, for his own death.

We have come to expect that Merry Christmas is accompanied by comfort always, forgetting the generations that said the phrase while enduring wars and suffering and hardships.

I believe we must celebrate Christmas not only as thanks for the blessings we have received, but as a celebration of the triumph over earthly suffering that Christ brings.

So, Merry Christmas, indeed.

Well said!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Nova
12-24-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm curious...

Has anyone here personally experienced an offended reaction when wishing someone else "Merry Christmas"?

It occurs to me that in all my life, I have never even come close to seeing anyone offended by being wished a Merry Christmas! I've read about the "PC Idiots." I've heard about the "deep offense" taken by being the recipient of this wish, but I have never witnessed it myself.

What about you all?

IM, I know people who prefer a different greeting because they don't appreciate the assumption that everyone wants to be merry on that day. To my knowledge, however, they are perfectly gracious even while receiving an unwanted greeting dozens of times each day.

Paladin
12-24-2007, 03:37 PM
IM, I know people who prefer a different greeting because they don't appreciate the assumption that everyone wants to be merry on that day.

Bah humbug!

Nova
12-24-2007, 03:47 PM
Bah humbug!

People of other religions (and no religion) put up with all sorts of condescending remarks all the time, including bon mots such as "But don't you want to go to heaven?" and "You must not have any morals, if you don't follow the Bible." In almost all cases, they are quite gracious about it (and, in fairness, there's no cure for feeling like an outsider, when one is, in fact, an outsider).

But do we want to pile on such feelings, especially at this time of year? I think not.

Paladin
12-24-2007, 04:01 PM
People of other religions (and no religion) put up with all sorts of condescending remarks all the time, including bon mots such as "But don't you want to go to heaven?" and "You must not have any morals, if you don't follow the Bible." In almost all cases, they are quite gracious about it (and, in fairness, there's no cure for feeling like an outsider, when one is, in fact, an outsider).

But do we want to pile on such feelings, especially at this time of year? I think not.

What does any of that have to do with being merry?

KatK
12-24-2007, 04:24 PM
What does any of that have to do with being merry?
Considering that the fact that Mom isn't alive and here in person this year has hit me? I'm being as merry as I can be, inbetween crying jags which started just after noon today.

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:25 PM
May I humbly attempt to distill Nova's post into a single sentence?

If it will make non-Christians feel anything other than "merry", why on earth would you want to say Merry Christmas to them?

Nova
12-24-2007, 04:25 PM
Considering that the fact that Mom isn't alive and here in person this year has hit me? I'm being as merry as I can be, inbetween crying jags which started just after noon today.

I'm so sorry, KatK. I hope your week gets better...

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:26 PM
:( Kat. Christmas can be such a tough time of year.

Nova
12-24-2007, 04:27 PM
May I humbly attempt to distill Nova's post into a single sentence?

If it will make non-Christians feel anything other than "merry", why on earth would you want to say Merry Christmas to them?

No humility necessary. That's exactly the point, I think.

Happy Holidays, absinthe (and everyone else)!

Paladin
12-24-2007, 04:27 PM
Considering that the fact that Mom isn't alive and here in person this year has hit me? I'm being as merry as I can be, inbetween crying jags which started just after noon today.

My condolences KatK.

csds703
12-24-2007, 04:27 PM
May I humbly attempt to distill Nova's post into a single sentence?

If it will make non-Christians feel anything other than "merry", why on earth would you want to say Merry Christmas to them?

I've asked this before but no one answered it.
Why would someone want to wish me a Merry Christmas knowing that I don't believe the same thing.
Doesn't that somehow diminish the sentiment?

csds703
12-24-2007, 04:29 PM
My condolences KatK.

Mine as well.

Paladin
12-24-2007, 04:29 PM
No humility necessary. That's exactly the point, I think.

Happy Holidays, absinthe (and everyone else)!

I'm sorry. I guess I didn't realize that there are idiots out there who try to hurt people's feelings by wishing them a Merry Christmas. Let's not lump the well-intentioned well-wishers in with the...lumps. ;)

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:31 PM
Let me preface by saying in no way am I directing this at Paladin.

I think the whole Merry Christmas thing is more about pleasing the wisher, rather than the wishee.

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:34 PM
No humility necessary. That's exactly the point, I think.

Happy Holidays, absinthe (and everyone else)!


Happy holidays back to you! And a very merry Christmas Eve to all those who observe it. I like Christmas Eve even better than Christmas day, I think.

Paladin
12-24-2007, 04:34 PM
Let me preface by saying in no way am I directing this at Paladin.

I think the whole Merry Christmas thing is more about pleasing the wisher, rather than the wishee.

Hehe, it's okay if you are directing it at me. I don't mind. Discussions and the occasional argument are good for the soul. It's good to realize that there are other viewpoints than my own and that often times I am wrong in my beliefs.

That being said, what you said is very interesting, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to believe that is the case for all people wishing someone a merry Christmas.

Also, do you believe that was always the case, or do you feel that this is a recent thing?

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:40 PM
Hehe, it's okay if you are directing it at me. I don't mind. Discussions and the occasional argument are good for the soul. It's good to realize that there are other viewpoints than my own and that often times I am wrong in my beliefs.

That being said, what you said is very interesting, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to believe that is the case for all people wishing someone a merry Christmas.

Also, do you believe that was always the case, or do you feel that this is a recent thing?

Oh, definitely a this is an extension of a diverse society. I mean, we have no such compunctions about wishing people a Happy Thanksgiving, do we? No, because we know pretty much everyone in the U.S. celebrates Thanksgiving in some way, or at the very least has no religious objections to the holiday.

Great, now that I really think about it, I'm sure many American Indians have problems with Thanksgiving. Bad example.

Paladin
12-24-2007, 04:43 PM
Great, now that I really think about it, I'm sure many American Indians have problems with Thanksgiving. Bad example.

You may also offend those who feel they have nothing to give thanks for. :D

I think what it boils down is, you can't please all the people all the time. I think this topic is much ado about nothing.

But anyways, have a wonderful holidays (past and present), and a very very Happy New Years.

absinthe
12-24-2007, 04:47 PM
You may also offend those who feel they have nothing to give thanks for. :D

I think what it boils down is, you can please all the people all the time. I think this topic is much ado about nothing.

But anyways, have a wonderful holidays (past and present), and a very very Happy New Years.


Lolz! All those years of college have really primed me for arguing meaningless points. At least it keeps us thinking! Merry Christmas, Paladin.

KatK
12-24-2007, 04:52 PM
<snip>
Great, now that I really think about it, I'm sure many American Indians have problems with Thanksgiving. Bad example.
Not really, many cultures have harvest festivals, in which Thanks are given for good harvests, or Blessings counted in spite of a poor one. ;)

Indy Gal
12-24-2007, 06:00 PM
I've asked this before but no one answered it.
Why would someone want to wish me a Merry Christmas knowing that I don't believe the same thing.
Doesn't that somehow diminish the sentiment?
I think it does reading here. Never thought about it before. I have now tried to say happy holidays, all my myspace friends got that besides merry christmas.

Indy Gal
12-24-2007, 06:02 PM
It's good to realize that there are other viewpoints than my own and that often times I am wrong in my beliefs.
?
:clap: :clap: :clap: Me too!

southcitymom
12-24-2007, 06:13 PM
......All those years of college have really primed me for arguing meaningless points.....

This is the story of my life, absinthe! Merry Christmas to you!

Texana
12-24-2007, 10:08 PM
Considering that the fact that Mom isn't alive and here in person this year has hit me? I'm being as merry as I can be, inbetween crying jags which started just after noon today.

((())))

Big Hugs to you, KatK. There is nothing I can say that will make this better, but as a mom, I know that I would want my own children to miss me, but be happy as much as possible. That's what mothers want, after all, more than anything--the well-being of their children. I know your mom would want that for you.

Hugs again, and it is okay if you are not feeling so merry, bright, or jingly this year...

absinthe
12-25-2007, 03:09 PM
Merry Christmas darling SCM, and to all others who celebrate! To those who don't, we're gonna build a city on rock n' roll on NYE!

philamena
12-25-2007, 04:42 PM
Considering that the fact that Mom isn't alive and here in person this year has hit me? I'm being as merry as I can be, inbetween crying jags which started just after noon today.

{{{HUGSSS}}}
I too lost my mom this past summer and my daddy 2 weeks ago so I fully understand your pain and the your shedding tears. I wish I could give you hug in real life. :blowkiss:

Today, I have been blessed with both a loving, supportive family and the4 feeling of my parents presence.

csds703
12-25-2007, 04:43 PM
{{{HUGSSS}}}
I too lost my mom this past summer and my daddy 2 weeks ago. I fully understand your pain and the reason your shedding tears. I wish I could give you hug in real life. :blowkiss:

I'm sorry philamena. That must be really tough. :blowkiss:

philamena
12-25-2007, 04:56 PM
csds703,
Today is tough but honestly yesterday was tougher...not sure why.

Merry Christmas dear one.

csds703
12-25-2007, 05:03 PM
csds703,
Today is tough but honestly yesterday was tougher...not sure why.

Merry Christmas dear one.


Yesterday was probably tougher in anticipation. Who are you with today?
I believe that your parents are with you, and watching over you. I can always feel my dad when I'm down if I allow myself to listen to the silence.
Merry Christmas to you too!

KatK
12-25-2007, 05:04 PM
{{{HUGSSS}}}
I too lost my mom this past summer and my daddy 2 weeks ago so I fully understand your pain and the your shedding tears. I wish I could give you hug in real life. :blowkiss:

Today, I have been blessed with both a loving, supportive family and the4 feeling of my parents presence.

*Hug* and Thank you. :blowkiss:

My BIL gave one hardcover book to my husband, thinking that of course I was also reading the series. When he found out I wasn't, he gave my husband a used book that he'd already read, of a series I'm not reading, but at least of an author I don't mind.

My FIL hasn't given us a thing, and I'm betting he's given his other two sons something by now. FIL is a bullyboy jerk who wants everyone else to take responsibility for his messups, wants the females around to play Donna Reed and clean up after him like the pooper scooper behind the elephants at the circus parade. He says something once, offhandedly, doesn't make sure he's made eye-contact or gotten a verbal feedback to show the person heard him, then leaves it.

Example: He'd bought a little package of lasagna and garlic bread at Braums. This was to be the supper he was going to feed us all on Christmas Day. Not that it would have been enough to feed all of us and not leave us hungry, mind. (We board here, and he prides himself on providing holiday meals when he's not going to his Mommy's house for her to cook for him.) We didn't realize this, we didn't go with them to his Mother's house on the 23rd, so we thought he'd picked up the lasagna for us to have for that night for supper, just as a token "nice" gesture that he does sometimes. (He has done that before in the past.) Apparently he said the lasagna was for Christmas dinner to my husband, but my husband is notoriously bad about paying attention at times, you have to pin him down and get feedback to make sure he heard you. (FIL knows this, apparently his family are proud of this "family trait".) Yesterday, we brought up the fact that nothing would be open in this town, and that the stores would be closing early, so what was his plans for Christmas dinner. He said nothing, didn't seem worried at all. (He usually subsists, he and my BIL on a diet that consists entirely of fast food. I won't cook for them, that would be enabling the slob.) If he had bothered to ask my husband yesterday "Why are you asking, you know the lasagna is there for Christmas dinner?!" we wouldn't be in this pickle. LUCKILY, there is a Chinese restaurant open today, and we have just enough money (money given to us by his grandmother and from friends) to take them out to buffett, since now we must pay for Christmas dinner. I feel wretched. :(

This is the fellow who threatened to evict us because I dared to ask him to get up out of his chair in front of the television and walk into the kitchen to look at what was wrong with the stove, since an entire pot of pasta had "walked" off the stove. This was pasta that I'd bought with my disability money, that I was cooking up to share a meal with everyone, mind. He'd just cheaped out and bought the stove secondhand and put it in, after months of not having a functional stove, and YEARS without a functional oven. (His wife did all her baking, she loved to bake, from a toaster oven. She'd bake dozens of cookies too.) Turns out, it's one of the old kind where if you don't put the burner covers on properly, they will be slanted wrong and the pots will slide off the stove. My astigmatism couldn't discern this, and the Mr. had never in his life seen a stove like it before. He'd already checked to see if the stove was level or not, and he couldn't figure it out. This is the same fellow who'd rather suffer, and let his underage child suffer by not being able to have easy to heat frozen food to nuke for quick meals and not buy a microwave for everyone to use in the kitchen rather than provide one since "You guys use it the most." The oven doesn't work right now, only the stovetop does. :furious: I don't like him at all. I stay up in our room most of the time, just so I don't finally snap and tell him exactly what I think of him. But, for now, I have to think peaceful thoughts, so I can choke down Chinese buffett turned into sawdust because I'm around a heavy smoker (The fact that this arsehole didn't quit smoking when his eldest son was a child and very, very, very ill with asthma says a lot about how selfish he really is. I mean as in the Mr.'s Mother told me he was deathly ill, bedridden, she was afraid he'd die. His youngest son, whom he dotes on and favors also had asthma, yet he still smokes like a chimney, chain smokes.) whom I loathe. Fortunately, the Mr. takes after his Mother, and his Maternal Grandfather who were decent people.

philamena
12-25-2007, 05:05 PM
Yesterday was probably tougher in anticipation. Who are you with today?
I believe that your parents are with you, and watching over you. I can always feel my dad when I'm down if I allow myself to listen to the silence.
Merry Christmas to you too!

I think you're right.
I am with my husband, my teen children and their boyfriends.

csds703
12-25-2007, 05:11 PM
I think you're right.
I am with my husband, my teen children and their boyfriends.

Those are always the people who make me feel better.

Philamena
I hope the New Year is better for you. I will keep you in my thoughts today and know that I am so sorry for your losses.

philamena
12-25-2007, 05:18 PM
KKat,
OMG! I am soooooo sorry. I truly am sad that you've had to endure so much.:blowkiss:

Texana
12-25-2007, 09:35 PM
KatK, I am sorry you are dealing with so much as well with your FIL. I am sure it makes you miss your mother even more.

Philamena, I am so sorry for your losses this year as well. This must have been a difficult holiday season for you. I am so sad even at the thought of enduring that. ((())) Hugs.

philamena
12-26-2007, 12:42 AM
Texana,
(((hugs))) to you and thank you for your kindness.

Texana
12-26-2007, 01:09 AM
Texana,
(((hugs))) to you and thank you for your kindness.

You are welcome, but I wish that was enough to make it better for you.

Hope it does help a little.

Details
12-26-2007, 03:36 AM
I'm a day late - but, on a holiday created from a patchwork of other holidays, it'd seem tolerance should be the name of the day.

I wouldn't wish a happy Good Friday to anyone other than someone I knew to be Christian, a happy Ramadan to any other than a Muslim - to me, Happy Holidays seems the best way to share my joy, to wish them well.

I've never seen anyone upset at being wished "Merry Christmas" - I think it's a little unaware of the variety of people in the world when used on a stranger - but not offensive. I have seen, and been present during the sermon when the preacher told his congregation to get in people's faces who dare to say "Happy Holidays", then got the wonderful pleasure of sitting through my MIL talking about how she enjoys shoving that in some store clerks face.

dingo
12-26-2007, 04:35 AM
Why cant one just give their own greeting and recieve whatever greeting back and move on.

Paladin
12-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Thought people who are following this thread would enjoy this video.

NOTE, there is use of the f-word, if that offends you, then please don't click on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE2jFqCpZio

KatK
12-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Why cant one just give their own greeting and recieve whatever greeting back and move on.
This is what I do, I did take a minor exception the day after Thanksgiving this year, when someone wished me a Merry Christmas. That smacked too much of commercialism to me, since it wasn't even December yet. Instead of pitching a fit about it though, I let them see me do a bit of a doubletake, paused a beat, then said "Well Merry Christmas to you when it arrives, and have a Safe and Happy New Year also." and let it go. They seemed to be thinking about what I said, and maybe I shook them out of a little bit of that "BUY MORE NOW!!!" trance the coporate advertising campaign seems to induce from November on nowadays. *wry*

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
12-26-2007, 05:19 PM
Neither one of you understand the greater truth....because it's a lie! Christ was not even born in December! The Bible even gives clues to when he was born which are not anywhere near December. WHY didn't they make his birth date closer to when it actually could have happened? Because they wanted to destroy the pagan celebrations! That is my point. Those petty historical details are what gave you all your Christmas.

And I just think it's kind of funny that all of the people who get upset about being PC actually feel like their holiday is being stolen from them when their ancestors stole it to begin with! Karma is a b*tch.

Merry Christmas & Happy Yule

I read this thread this morning and pondered it all afternoon. You see, I must be naive, I always thought the peaceful Pagans rejoiced in sharing their wonderful winter celebration with the Christians. I never realized the Christians told the Pagans they could no longer celebrate their festival of winter because they where taking it over. Never knew the Pagans where furious about it and turned against the Christians. I always thought the Christians took many holiday traditions (including Easter) from the Pagan's because they thought they where great ideas and perfect times to celebrate. (if you can't beat them join them) I find it amazing that two such peaceful religions made a war over such a trivial thing (as in timing). Interesting.

My understanding of Jesus Christ is that he would have never wanted any of this. He would have wanted us to show respect for him by showing respect to others, such as welcoming their traditions, honoring God and others and celebrating what has been given to us. The earth, sun, air, food and water.

Nova
12-26-2007, 06:51 PM
I read this thread this morning and pondered it all afternoon. You see, I must be naive, I always thought the peaceful Pagans rejoiced in sharing their wonderful winter celebration with the Christians. I never realized the Christians told the Pagans they could no longer celebrate their festival of winter because they where taking it over. Never knew the Pagans where furious about it and turned against the Christians. I always thought the Christians took many holiday traditions (including Easter) from the Pagan's because they thought they where great ideas and perfect times to celebrate. (if you can't beat them join them) I find it amazing that two such peaceful religions made a war over such a trivial thing (as in timing). Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Per Wiki, the earliest celebrations of the Nativity were in the early 200s C.E. I seriously doubt Christians of that era held enough power to "force" pagans to do anything, much less drop their traditional holidays. And pagans of the early Christian centuries (particularly the Romans) were rather famously diverse and (like the modern Japanese) often chose elements from many religions to celebrate. I suspect the reported "Jingle Bell" war was a minor affair at best.

(There may have been more conflict during later centuries of "forced" conversion to Christianity in some areas and maybe that's what the original poster meant.)

My understanding of Jesus Christ is that he would have never wanted any of this. He would have wanted us to show respect for him by showing respect to others, such as welcoming their traditions, honoring God and others and celebrating what has been given to us. The earth, sun, air, food and water.

That is EXACTLY my understanding of Jesus Christ, at least before I learned on other threads here at WS that Jesus is in favor of capital punishment, gun ownership and preemptive wars.

I wonder where you and I ever got such a radical notion...

Dark Knight
12-26-2007, 06:56 PM
That is EXACTLY my understanding of Jesus Christ, at least before I learned on other threads here at WS that Jesus is in favor of capital punishment, gun ownership and preemptive wars.



LOL! Well Jesus never, in His omnipotence, condemned crucifixion as punishment for crimes, including crimes far less than murder. (The 2 that were crucified along with Jesus are the best-known example of that. Well, so is Jesus, for that matter!) Given how horrific this method of execution is, if Jesus didn't recognize the State's right to mete out punishment as it sees fit for crimes committed, don't you think He would have said something?

ETA: And while they didn't have guns then, His Apostles did carry swords, apparently.)

Nova
12-26-2007, 06:59 PM
LOL! Well Jesus never, in His omnipotence, condemned crucifixion as punishment for crimes, including crimes far less than murder. (The 2 that were crucified along with Jesus are the best-known example of that. Well, so is Jesus, for that matter!) Given how horrific this method of execution is, if Jesus didn't recognize the State's right to mete out punishment as it sees fit for crimes committed, don't you think He would have said something?

ETA: And while they didn't have guns then, His Apostles did carry swords, apparently.)

By the very same logic, we must conclude Jesus was pro-homosexuality. I'm glad you've finally come around on that, DK.

Dark Knight
12-26-2007, 07:14 PM
By the very same logic, we must conclude Jesus was pro-homosexuality. I'm glad you've finally come around on that, DK.

There are no gays in the middle east, that is purely an American phenomenon! :crazy:

Texana
12-26-2007, 07:36 PM
There are no gays in the middle east, that is purely an American phenomenon! :crazy:

Right, we all know that now...

Nova
12-26-2007, 07:39 PM
There are no gays in the middle east, that is purely an American phenomenon! :crazy:

Ah, yes, of course.

Still, given the trouble Jesus took to have His every word set down in American English, you'd think he might've said sumpin'.

absinthe
12-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Settle, settle. Jesus was/is pro-wine.

southcitymom
12-26-2007, 10:15 PM
Settle, settle. Jesus was/is pro-wine.

There's that.

Dark Knight
12-26-2007, 11:01 PM
Ah, yes, of course.

Still, given the trouble Jesus took to have His every word set down in American English, you'd think he might've said sumpin'.

Maybe the Apostle's were sleeping that day? Or maybe He felt it'd be redundant after the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing.

Nova
12-27-2007, 03:51 PM
Maybe the Apostle's were sleeping that day? Or maybe He felt it'd be redundant after the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing.

Given that Jesus actually spoke and read Hebrew (and then, there's that whole Omniscience thing), it's doubtful He confused those stories with Modern concepts of sexuality. ("Sodomite" wasn't a synonym for "homosexual" until recent centuries, for example.) :)

Dark Knight
12-27-2007, 04:12 PM
Given that Jesus actually spoke and read Hebrew (and then, there's that whole Omniscience thing), it's doubtful He confused those stories with Modern concepts of sexuality. ("Sodomite" wasn't a synonym for "homosexual" until recent centuries, for example.) :)

I'm sure He was well aware of all the "intimacies" between men going on, and the desire to have intimacies with the angels that were visiting. But, I know you see it differently, as we've discussed this before. :)

Nova
12-27-2007, 06:37 PM
I'm sure He was well aware of all the "intimacies" between men going on, and the desire to have intimacies with the angels that were visiting. But, I know you see it differently, as we've discussed this before. :)

Being a Middle Easterner--and very much a wanderer himself--I'm sure he was at least as aware of the violations of local codes requiring hospitality toward travelers. But, yeah, we've discussed this. :)