Missing 8 mth pregnant Marine Maria Frances Lauterbach- NC #2

[chicoliving]

Here ya go!

[Indy Gal]

Thanks Chico!!

Thread One
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58274

[Ticamom]

Thanks Chico for the new thread. The one was too long already.

[chicoliving]

Yw! :)

[Indy Gal]

A next door neighbor said he saw Laurean suspiciously take down a chunk of his wooden fence and set it on fire about two weeks ago; this was the same time Lauterbach vanished.
"The whole year and half we've been living here they've never burned anything in their backyard. And now, there's a burn pile in the middle of the yard. Almost 16 days ago, he borrowed my shovel and didn't tell me what it was for. Now, the Sheriff's Department has the shovel," said neighbor Richard Alander

http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp?S=7611007&nav=menu157_1
more at link

[Spazkat9696]

My local news just showed a helicopter shot of what I guess is the back yard. I think this guy must have lived way out in the woods or something. I just checked the website and the video is not up yet. It was WVBT fox 43 but WAVY TV 10 owns 43 so I'm not sure which one it will show up on.

[Indy Gal]

Cnn has one too, and yes it looks like he is surrounded by woods

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/11/missing.marine/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

You can see the missing fence as well

[izzyblizzy]

A next door neighbor said he saw Laurean suspiciously take down a chunk of his wooden fence and set it on fire about two weeks ago; this was the same time Lauterbach vanished.
"The whole year and half we've been living here they've never burned anything in their backyard. And now, there's a burn pile in the middle of the yard. Almost 16 days ago, he borrowed my shovel and didn't tell me what it was for. Now, the Sheriff's Department has the shovel," said neighbor Richard Alander

http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp?S=7611007&nav=menu157_1
more at link

From that link:

It is believed that Laurean, his wife, and their 2-year-old child left town.

???? I thought the police are in contact with his wife and she is cooperating? And they had a child???

[Elphaba]

His wife had to suspect something... no?

[Indy Gal]

From that link:

It is believed that Laurean, his wife, and their 2-year-old child left town.

???? I thought the police are in contact with his wife and she is cooperating? And they had a child???

Confused me as well. :confused:

[Elphaba]

Well, the house is a crime scene, so there is no way that her and the child could stay there... perhaps she has left town to be with relatives.

[Indy Gal]

I doubt we will hear anything else until morning, so I am off to bed. See yall in the am.

[fran]

From that link:

It is believed that Laurean, his wife, and their 2-year-old child left town.

???? I thought the police are in contact with his wife and she is cooperating? And they had a child???


More proof that you can't believe every bit of 'news' reported. It was the neighbors who thought the wife had left with the husband. Of course she wasn't out and about, she was talking to the POLICE.

JMHO
fran

[izzyblizzy]

oh that, is possible, just the way it was worded, sounded like they left together!!!

[izzyblizzy]

More proof that you can't believe every bit of 'news' reported. It was the neighbors who thought the wife had left with the husband. Of course she wasn't out and about, she was talking to the POLICE.

JMHO
fran

no doubt. Could have been a lot more clear if they said "Neighbors believe...." instead of "it is believed ...".

[KarainTexas]

Fran, I am standing pat in my belief that the Wife HAD to know something. It seemed like Greta was suspicious of that as well.

Remember someone posted what we think is his myspace, there was a child in the defalt pic, around two. I wondered if it was his... makes this even worse IMO - how can you do this when you have already experienced the miracle of one childs birth.

Keep going back to him talking about how bizzar this is going to be and how he wouldnt confirm anything to Greta about the baby.

[Mohabi]

What about the wife? Would she not have been upset at another woman having her husband's child? Would it not be possible that the problem started between the two women?...........I'm just wondering....

[Pharlap]

This is the worst of the worst for a mother to be carrying a almost newborn.
The wife has to be starred to death, as for herself and child is next.
Omg, don't have a good feeling about this.

[LinasK]

By MIKE BAKER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
JACKSONVILLE, N.C. - Authorities said Friday they believe they found the shallow grave of a pregnant Marine in the back yard of a comrade she accused of rape, along with evidence inside his home that suggested she had been killed.

Investigators are treating the case as a homicide, said Onslow County Sheriff Ed Brown. But the prime suspect left a note insisting Lance Cpl. Maria Frances Lauterbach had killed herself, Brown said.

After some slight digging in a fire pit discovered in the yard of Marine Cpl. Cesar Armando Laurean, detectives found what "appeared to be burnt human remains," Onslow County District Attorney Dewey Hudson said Friday night.

"We think we have found what will (contain) the skeletal remains of Maria Lauterbach," Hudson said. Authorities placed a tarp and two white tents over the area and planned to begin slowly scraping the earth with garden tools Saturday morning. more at link:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080112/ap_on_re_us/missing_marine

[KOOL LOOK]

[quote=LinasK;1904465]By MIKE BAKER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 24 minutes ago


"We think we have found what will (contain) the skeletal remains of Maria Lauterbach," Hudson said. Authorities placed a tarp and two white tents over the area and planned to begin slowly scraping the earth with garden tools Saturday morning. more link:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080112/ap_on_re_us/missing_marine[/quote


Remember yesterday the keystone cops said they didn't have a picture of him.

Well click on link, then click to inlarge the picture to your left..reads date of picture...1-8-08.:bang::doh:
Ok, someone just took the marines picture down.(I went back to recheck the link to see if it still worked)..........I don't believe it.

Now it's up again...I made a cope of it....

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080108/capt.4b83b2d81a1544d0933cea816716cb64.afghan_marin es_shooting_ncjac101.jpg?x=180&y=116&q=85&sig=3KT5S7FmR8cy8kApTBnmUg--


The bottom last link are of three men on their way to a hearing on another matter. This is not the pic of the suspect, are these also involved or representing the suspect? Or is this just an additional story and link provided on left side of web page where the first link came up?

[Pharlap]

[quote=Pharlap;1904762]


The bottom last link are of three men on their way to a hearing on another matter. This is not the pic of the suspect, are these also involved or representing the suspect? Or is this just an additional story and link provided on left side of web page where the first link came up?


Think your right, I blew the pic on, and it sure looked like the guy.
Guess a lot of them do...:eek:.o boy....I'll delete it......

[KOOL LOOK]

[quote=KOOL LOOK;1904826]


Think your right, I blew the pic on, and it sure looked like the guy.
Guess a lot of them do...:eek:.o boy....I'll delete it......

I could be wrong sweetie. This case is horrible. Surely this girl didn't drive over to his house and try to commit and accomplish slashing her own throat?

I've never heard of someone slashing their own throats in suicide attempts and being successful. Head of slashing wrists, stabbing in abdomen, not their own throat. Did she voluntarily go to his home? The news that's being reported, just isn't believable to me on all the aspects, but I guess their reporting his version of events, which doesn't seem natural.

[tazette]

I only read about this on my home page yesterday. How horribly sad!
The thing that stood out to me was the step-mother's comment.
"The woman, a lance corporal, made the allegation to her stepmother, who also told investigators that her stepdaughter was bipolar and had a history of compulsive lying, according to the documents filed this week."
Would the service actually allow a bipolar/compulsive liar in the service?
Why so much animosity by the step-mother? Maybe the step-mother slowed down the investigation? I certainly hope the step-mother doesn't gain financially over any of this.
Any reasons as to why Maria was facing possible discharge?
"Authorities said Thursday they planned to question the superior officer at Camp Lejeune. Her stepmother said the officer threatened the missing woman's career, and search warrants filed this week state the woman was facing a possible discharge from the Marine Corps. No reason was provided."
Step-mom seems to be in the know of things. Is Maria's father or mother around? And if so, any comments from them?
This is such a sad horrible thing to have happened & I hope the guilty person pays for this. And I hope step-mom feels some sense of guilt over her comments, as well. I would like to know what step-mom & Maria's last conversation was about. Altho (IMO) I would bet it would be a different story, in light of things now.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK. Devil's Advocate: What IF she did slit her own throat?

She was bipolar and off meds according to her "mom".

She bought a ticket and then went to see him at his house. She pulled out a knife and cut her own throat when things did not go her way?

What would a trained Marine do?! Decide to burn and bury her in the backyard?! No, a person that wanted to hide everything would...but a trained Marine would not. He would first save another Marine..no matter what. He would call 911 and stay there trying to save her life. It was his job.

She did not cut her own throat.

[Pharlap]

OK. Devil's Advocate: What IF she did slit her own throat?

She was bipolar and off meds according to her "mom".

She bought a ticket and then went to see him at his house. She pulled out a knife and cut her own throat when things did not go her way?

What would a trained Marine do?! Decide to burn and bury her in the backyard?! No, a person that wanted to hide everything would...but a trained Marine would not. He would first save another Marine..no matter what. He would call 911 and stay there trying to save her life. It was his job.

She did not cut her own throat.


You'd think he'd want to save the baby at least........

[Elphaba]

The baby would have been a greater threat to him, than her... the baby would have held the biological key to shore up her accusations of rape. This is why I think he killed her (I am so not buying into her killing herself)... to get rid of both the accusatory voice and possible biological proof.

[Jadenn]

Laurean left a note to his wife, apparently saying that Maria killed herself and that he just buried the body.

That may have been why Sheriff Brown was hesitating to call it a murder at the press conference

More at www.jdnews.com (http://www.jdnews.com)

[poco]

This makes no sense - if he was afraid that "they" would find out through DNA that the baby really was his, that doesn't necessarily mean that he raped her - maybe it was concensual.

Also, if he did kill her because of that, there was a good chance that the body would be found and they would still get to do the DNA testing.....

[Pharlap]

This makes no sense - if he was afraid that "they" would find out through DNA that the baby really was his, that doesn't necessarily mean that he raped her - maybe it was concensual.

Also, if he did kill her because of that, there was a good chance that the body would be found and they would still get to do the DNA testing.....

If there's enough left to do one.
They were burned. sick...:mad:

[Elphaba]

I was just watching a CBS interview with a family member and if what he is saying is true, it looks like the officials there in CLJ were more worried about brushing this under the rug and had help from the Sheriff... he says that LE told them not to even come down to NC because CLJ was taking care of the matter. Come to find out, they (the military) weren't doing much about her being missing.

This being said: I have a feeling that the leak of her mother saying she was a pathological liar and bipolar was done so as to keep the case focused off of the military, by tarnishing Maria's image via her own mother's words. (It was her adopted mother, not her step-mom, and from my understanding, the info was gathered from the mother by investigators under the guise of confidentiality.) Don't get me wrong, it does seem cold her mother would say that about her, but with more information coming to light, I am becoming very suspect of things and thinking the mother's words may be being used out of context as part of a military cover-up. Something isn't right about this case, in regards of military involvement...

CLJ: Camp Lejeune

[Elphaba]

This makes no sense - if he was afraid that "they" would find out through DNA that the baby really was his, that doesn't necessarily mean that he raped her - maybe it was concensual.

Also, if he did kill her because of that, there was a good chance that the body would be found and they would still get to do the DNA testing.....

As long as she stuck to her rape accusations, that baby's DNA being matched to the person she was pointing fingers at would have been huge evidence to bolster her claims, because it would prove sexual contact of some sort between Maria and Cesar.

Murder of a pregnant mother will never make sense... but it has become an epidemic... and there is no set angle on what spawns a person to take a mother and her unborn child's life. Looking at this case, with the rape accusations on the line and the trial coming up, him getting rid of her and the baby so as to silence her voice and stopping the birth of solid evidence that he had sexual contact with her, is plausible.

[richandfamous]

just imagine being raped by a fellow marine, being pregnant by that rape, reporting that rape, and the military does not protect you or believe you and your perp is free to intimidate you, the civilian police/sheriff dept doesn't do anything either and your mother/stepmother doesn't believe you either and tells cops/media you are a liar, of poor character and mentally ill....holy crap!!!
That poor girl!

[richandfamous]

my daughter just joined the marines and is going to bootcamp in SC. I hope this murder of a young woman marine will change any wrong doing by the military there!

[SeriouslySearching]

The point is...IF he denied having sex with this woman to his COs...then finds out she is pregnant possibly with his child. EVIDENCE. They were waiting on such a confirmation when the child was born in the next month or so. He was married and he was charged with the rape of Maria. Now he says that she took a knife and took her own life by slitting her own throat. He did nothing to save either of them (Maria and posiibly his child) instead he burned then tried to bury her...with or without her child (maybe HIS child). He wrote a note to his wife saying the woman buried in the backyard was THE VICTIM'S fault and made no mention of the child. He ran and is still on the run. "Turned Tail" as I heard it at home which meant coward to us.

[Indy Gal]

Morning all!!

Seems to be getting worse each time I read

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/12/missing.marine/

He said the remains were "not intact."

[Cubby]

I think anyone believing a trained Marine would do the right thing, is sadly blinded. This woman, this mother, and this unborn child were done wrong by everyone involved.

What do they say about suicide statistics? Men, more so than woman are much more violent in taking their own life.

I can only imagine, as a single never married mother, who's sons father is a former marine, who I fought in court for child support and has done some things that other marines shudder at when hearing, she reached out tothe father of her child trying to do what was best for the kid. Who was there for her? Who did she have to turn to? Sadly, I believe, like so many others his interests preceded what was best and I hope he, step monster, pay. Sounds like another COB to me.....

May mother and child rest in peace.

[Indy Gal]

Yes Cubby he is another COB! And you know what i say I like my corn fried!!

ETA COB is something we starting calling Booby Cutts by accident and it has stuck, I believe it was JBD who started it, for the new posters here.

[sunshine163]

After Mary Lauterbach reported her daughter missing, an investigator asked her to send an e-mail telling him "everything she knew."

Court documents filed in North Carolina this week indicated the mother told investigators Maria was bipolar and had a history of compulsive lying.

"Never in my wildest dreams," she said Friday, "did I think it would become a national press release."

[Indy Gal]

Sunshine, love your name!

I read an interview on the last thread to the same effect. The uncle said they told LE she streched the truth and LE turned that into compulsive lying. Sounds to me now she was just trying to help anyway and her statement was blew up.

[Vegas Bride]

There are so many things wrong here! This poor girl IMO had absolutly no help and now she is dead. She was almost nine months pregnant, when did she report the rape? If it was soon afterwards, then why was the investigation taking so long?
Did he kill her to avoid child support?
I know his neighbor talked about him burning the wooden fence section, but wouldn't there have been a very strong smell also? You would think that the smell would have been there for a long time.

VB

[Indy Gal]

VB I read in one of the many articles, LOL, that she reported it about a month after it happened. I agree with you as well about the smell, it had to be horrible.

[SewingDeb]

I wonder if someone did try to save the baby. That may be the bizarre twist the sheriff is talking about.

[Indy Gal]

I wonder if someone did try to save the baby. That may be the bizarre twist the sheriff is talking about.
This is what is holding me up this AM, thinking the baby is possibly alive.

[Cubby]

After Mary Lauterbach reported her daughter missing, an investigator asked her to send an e-mail telling him "everything she knew."

Court documents filed in North Carolina this week indicated the mother told investigators Maria was bipolar and had a history of compulsive lying.

"Never in my wildest dreams," she said Friday, "did I think it would become a national press release."


Why wouldn't she think so? We have a national media story with the missing wife of a corrupt Cop, why not a marine? Duh, with what kinds of stories are making national news these days.

SHAME on her for those statements. She had NO concern for her husbands child..... or her future grandchild, whether or not they were blood. I wonder what else will come out about the stepmmom/mom.

[Ticamom]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


The point is...IF he denied having sex with this woman to his COs...then finds out she is pregnant possibly with his child. EVIDENCE. They were waiting on such a confirmation when the child was born in the next month or so. He was married and he was charged with the rape of Maria. Now he says that she took a knife and took her own life by slitting her own throat. He did nothing to save either of them (Maria and posiibly his child) instead he burned then tried to bury her...with or without her child (maybe HIS child). He wrote a note to his wife saying the woman buried in the backyard was THE VICTIM'S fault and made no mention of the child. He ran and is still on the run. "Turned Tail" as I heard it at home which meant coward to us.

[Littledeer]

WOW!

When I see LE using the word "bizarre" more than once, it really makes me think. That is not a word that they normally use in a murder case.

Like you Indy, I am wondering since it was said that her body was not "intact" if Lauren used the knife to slice her belly open to retrieve the baby, and then cut her throat?

But if the point of the killing was to silence her and prevent any DNA testing on the baby, what would have been the point?

Maybe, Laurean's wife was there at the time??? Could she have the taken the baby? Either to dispose of it or maybe she couldn't and the baby is somewhere else??

[Dobler]

I think he thought he was going to get away with it. The neighbors stated that he was burning the fence section in the backyard about 2 weeks ago.The bus ticket & the ATM activity was done to make it look like she left. Really it was only a few days ago did the story get any airplay. Why wasn't this National News when she first went missing? Especially considering her family didn't have contact with her during the holidays. Especially considering she was due at any time! I just don't understand.

[Vegas Bride]

IMO there has to be other people involved, who was the person who slugged her in the face? Who keyed her car? Who was the woman who bought the bus ticket in her name?
How sick is it that a 20 year old woman was being harrased so bad because of reporting a rape? Where were the people who should have been protecting her? There is a problem in the military, there are rapes and assaults and sweeping things under the rug and targeting the victim is not the right thing to do, there needs to be a big investigation to see how all of this came to be.

VB

[Indy Gal]

Keeping this fresh

Laurean, a 21-year-old from Nevada, is believed to have left the Marine base about 4 a.m. Friday, driving a black Dodge pickup with North Carolina license plate TRR1522, Brown said.

[Indy Gal]

[quote=Littledeer;1905051]

But if the point of the killing was to silence her and prevent any DNA testing on the baby, what would have been the point?
quote]
LD I hate to type this but I am trying to hold up hope, BUT maybe he did it to put the baby somewhere else so they couldnt prove it was him. I am still trying to think positive though and think if he did he has the baby.

:blowkiss:

[Littledeer]

INDY:

Was just going to post that information! Great minds think alike!!!

Everyone keeps your eyes open for that truck. Write down the plate number and have it with your while you are driving. We have no idea where he is heading and could be anywhere!

[sunshine163]

Why wouldn't she think so? We have a national media story with the missing wife of a corrupt Cop, why not a marine? Duh, with what kinds of stories are making national news these days.

SHAME on her for those statements. She had NO concern for her husbands child..... or her future grandchild, whether or not they were blood. I wonder what else will come out about the stepmonster.

This mother, NOT step-mother was doing everything she could to find her daughter.....she told law officers evcerything they wanted to know about her daughter.....

[jennyjwv]

I find it odd nothing has been mentioned about the unborn baby? I mean I would think that to be of major importance since it could have lived if been delivered.....?? anybody feel the same? I watched that press conf w/the sheriff last night and boy he doesn't speak to the public much!!!!

[Littledeer]

Indy, I wasn't trying to take away your positive thoughts. I am also trying to hold on to them.

So let's try to think like him. Where would I go if I had just killed the mother of my baby to silence her and I have the baby that I just killed for??

Maybe he could kill an adult, but just doesn't have the heart to kill a baby? Would he try to go to a relative's house? Another Marine's house? Do we really know that his wife hasn't had any contact with him?

[Indy Gal]

I find it odd nothing has been mentioned about the unborn baby? I mean I would think that to be of major importance since it could have lived if been delivered.....?? anybody feel the same? I watched that press conf w/the sheriff last night and boy he doesn't speak to the public much!!!!
I got to watch the AC rerun last night and all he says is we will find out today about the baby. Again trying to think positive but I dont think it will be a good outcome.

[Pharlap]

WOW!

When I see LE using the word "bizarre" more than once, it really makes me think. That is not a word that they normally use in a murder case.

Like you Indy, I am wondering since it was said that her body was not "intact" if Lauren used the knife to slice her belly open to retrieve the baby, and then cut her throat?

But if the point of the killing was to silence her and prevent any DNA testing on the baby, what would have been the point?

Maybe, Laurean's wife was there at the time??? Could she have the taken the baby? Either to dispose of it or maybe she couldn't and the baby is somewhere else??

I'm not a doc, but the body was burned...
I can't see the wife taking the baby either.
My gut says he just killed her and they both burned.
Depends on what's left...teeth from mom.
This is just terrible....

[Indy Gal]

Indy, I wasn't trying to take away your positive thoughts. I am also trying to hold on to them.

So let's try to think like him. Where would I go if I had just killed the mother of my baby to silence her and I have the baby that I just killed for??

Maybe he could kill an adult, but just doesn't have the heart to kill a baby? Would he try to go to a relative's house? Another Marine's house? Do we really know that his wife hasn't had any contact with him?
Oh Honey I know, hopefully I didnt write that the wrong way:blowkiss:

We were discussing last night two places he couldve gone. He was raised in NV and I do believe he was born in mexico. Those are the two places I would start for sure. Also thinking like him he knows how to survive like a marine. He could also be hiding out in the woods anywhere. There are mountains just 4 hours north of Jacksonville.

ETA how hard would it be for him to cross the border to Mexico, anyone know?

[Cubby]

The point is...IF he denied having sex with this woman to his COs...then finds out she is pregnant possibly with his child. EVIDENCE. They were waiting on such a confirmation when the child was born in the next month or so. He was married and he was charged with the rape of Maria. Now he says that she took a knife and took her own life by slitting her own throat. He did nothing to save either of them (Maria and posiibly his child) instead he burned then tried to bury her...with or without her child (maybe HIS child). He wrote a note to his wife saying the woman buried in the backyard was THE VICTIM'S fault and made no mention of the child. He ran and is still on the run. "Turned Tail" as I heard it at home which meant coward to us.


Think about this for a moment, especially those of you who are mothers. Remember your balance within weeks of delieverying? Not to mention, if she did in fact try to harm herself he, a trained marine, couldn't overpower a pregnant woman to save her and possibly his child?

This is reminding me of Tori and Dean...... though, thankfully it looks like enough evidence will eventually pop up to convict him, and a few others.

He should just do the manly thing and turn himself in. Is he an immigrant and is it possible he has left the country to another that won't extradite to the states? Always a concern of mine......

[Indy Gal]

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/2292589/

Authorities braced themselves for a "bizarre" discovery Saturday as excavation began of the shallow grave where detectives believe a Marine accused of rape buried his pregnant victim after a violent, bloody attack.
Crime scene investigators have found blood splatters on the celling and a massive amount of blood on the wall of the home of Marine Cpl. Cesar Armando Laurean, said Onslow County Sheriff Ed Brown. It appeared that someone had tried to wash and paint over the blood, he said

and

Brown declined to comment when asked if authorities thought Christina Laurean was involved or even aware of her husband's actions. Laurean's wife, Christina, is "heartbroken," said her mother, Debbie Sue Shifflet.

and

no sightings of Laurean, 21, of Clark County, Nevada

[MrsG728]

just imagine being raped by a fellow marine, being pregnant by that rape, reporting that rape, and the military does not protect you or believe you and your perp is free to intimidate you, the civilian police/sheriff dept doesn't do anything either and your mother/stepmother doesn't believe you either and tells cops/media you are a liar, of poor character and mentally ill....holy crap!!!
That poor girl!

:clap: well said. It's enough to make someone seem "crazy", isn't it?

[Littledeer]

Indy:

Do any of the news channels reporting/showing that digging has commenced? I know the tents are up around the pit..........

[Indy Gal]

Indy:

Do any of the news channels reporting/showing that digging has commenced? I know the tents are up around the pit..........
From what i am reading it seems they have started digging again. This will probabaly go on for most of the day.

ETA I feel somewhat of a loser as I sit here and just keep refrehing my google page..LOL

[Mohabi]

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/2292589/

"Brown declined to comment when asked if authorities thought Christina Laurean was involved or even aware of her husband's actions. Laurean's wife, Christina, is "heartbroken," said her mother, Debbie Sue Shifflet."

I'm sure his wife is upset and heartbroken, but HOW is it possible that she wasn't "aware" that something had happened in her house, if there are massive amounts of blood on the wall (see above link).... Why did she not immediately contact LE? Was she afraid of her marine husband? Was she involved in some way? How can LE just "dismiss" the idea that the wife was involved or knew that a violent event had taken place in her house?

[KOOL LOOK]

This mother, NOT step-mother was doing everything she could to find her daughter.....she told law officers evcerything they wanted to know about her daughter.....


Hi sunshine, nice to meet ya. This mother you refer to, giving her the benefit of the doubt about her personal comments concerning Maria, I can believe it and go along with it being mis-construed and used out of context. I can see how that could have occurred along with law enforcement and the military using this to benefit their own neglect concerning this case.

HOWEVER, :mad: The mother, the caretaker, the parent or guardian, is the source of the alleged behaviorial traits of the child. We must not loose site of that. A child isn't diagnose in behaviorial areas as not being normal unless the adult caretaker or school officials intervene and say it's soooooo. Period!!!! Not angry with you sunshine, angry about the situation, :blowkiss: had to throw that in.

A child is repeatedly taken to the doctors, therapists, and specialists and they only can go on what the caretaker is relaying to them on a daily level. They spend a smidgen of time with the actual patient or subject. They solely almost 95 percent of their diagnosis is from the reporting parent.

In other words, the reporting, accussing caretaker is the one to get the wheels of diagnosis labeling turning and churning in the first place. It is the seed, root of where it all first began. It does not take a licensed trained medical specialist to know environment and the raising is alot to be held into the account of a child's outcome. Especially when it's behavioral. I know what I'm talking about in these areas.

Example: I had a friend on the next street, Mary, who had an only child Lonnie, she kept him at the doctors consistenly complaining of everything the poor child done. I kept him many times for hours upon hours. There was nothing wrong with Lonnie. It was the mother. Anyone ever heard of Munchaesun by Proxy? Not saying this is the case in this situation, but it does happen. I believe Mary has it, because her second child, 9 years later, calling and checking upon her after the baby was born, she rattled off about 5 different major diagnosis with this baby, who is healthy. She's pregnant again, just saw her Friday. She lost custody of Lonnie a year ago to the Father when they divorced. The husband stayed married and supported them all those years, but couldn't live with her on a regular basis. She has improved.

Another thought, adoption etc... and then if the child is labeled with a sickness or behavioral disorder, the state comes in and gives those caretakers all kinds of benefits, monies etc... I know several people who did this very thing, using children to benefit monetarily. Sad but true. I'm not accusing all caretakers and parents of making things up about their children.

That's why I would seriously like to know more about this relationship with the woman who adopted this marine at the age of 19 months, which is fairly old for a baby adoption. Was it from a state agency? Has this Mary been in the system before concerning the Elderly and children? I hope this is not the case, but I'm keeping my mind open, something has went tragically wrong for a mother to take five days to report her absent, missing, quiet about to give birth any moment daughter a call to help.

I also want to point out again, what tends to make me further feel this way, is Marine Durham's statements concerning the very last contact between expectant mother to be, and the adoptive mother. How in the name of anything, can this woman predict what kind of mother Maria would have been. Sounds like to me she's played ball in these areas in the past, being she's herself gotten someone else's baby, even if it is legally. She to me, has a heart (Possibly), I'm not convinced yet, of passing judgement upon mothers in general. That last phone call tells me sooooooooo much about the mind and heart of both Maria and the adoptive mother.

Sunshine, I wanted to add again, these opinions of mine aren't directed to you personally, and I appreciate your posts and opinions. Peace! :blowkiss:

[SeriouslySearching]

Blood spatter on the CEILING?! No, I had not heard that yet. Does it for me. Someone else inflicted that cut and raised the knife to make such a pattern above their head. No way it could happen if not. She did not kill herself as to his story. Guess what I think the coward should do? We don't need to try the obvious.

[Indy Gal]

Blood spatter on the CEILING?! No, I had not heard that yet. Does it for me. Someone else inflicted that cut and raised the knife to make such a pattern above their head. No way it could happen if not. She did not kill herself as to his story. Guess what I think the coward should do? We don't need to try the obvious.
SS when I read that I was thinking blunt force trama?

[Littledeer]

Kool Look:

I'm confused. If it's the step-mother that said Maria was bipolar, etc., how does your post above fit in with that?

[BritDees]

In regards to the questions surrounding if the Marines would take someone who is bi polar..I have a dear friend who lived with me for a while who was in the Marines at one time and was bi polar at the time of his enlistment.

I'm not sure if he was diagnosed as being bi polar at the time, but it isn't hard to tell when he's "up" and during his up time (when he isn't on medication and I don't believe he was during his time in the service) it's noticable that he's "different" than most other people. I wouldn't say he lied to people but would definitely tell people what he thought they wanted to hear rather than the truth.

[CarpeDiem]

The baby would have been a greater threat to him, than her... the baby would have held the biological key to shore up her accusations of rape. This is why I think he killed her (I am so not buying into her killing herself)... to get rid of both the accusatory voice and possible biological proof.

The baby was also proof of adultery which is punishable in the service, under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The maximum penalty for the adultery alone would have been dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

[Littledeer]

If there is blood splatter on the ceiling, which is normally 6 feet in height (IMO), that would indicate to me that the head was pulled back and facing the ceiling when the slashing was done around the neck.

Marines are trained to sneak up behind their enemy and wrap their arm around the person's neck and then subdue them. If this is how it happened, at 8 months pregnant with the extra weight Maria had on her it would have been very difficult for her to have been able to get out of that position.

Would probably have been a different outcome with her Marine training, if she had not been pregnant.

Just speculating here so don't bash me. :)

[KOOL LOOK]

Kool Look:

I'm confused. If it's the step-mother that said Maria was bipolar, etc., how does your post above fit in with that?


My understanding is that she actually isn't considered the step mother at all. No step mother, but she's actually the adoptive mother. Adopted Maria at 19 months old, so she really can't be considered the step mother, as a few posters have pointed out. Which would be correct. I take it the woman and her husband were married and adopted. Shoot, Little deer, I don't know!

Is there a step mother and then this adoptive mother named Mary who has given the media interview and talked with police?

lol :blowkiss:

[Indy Gal]

No bashing LD I think we are all speculating at this point. Its what we do. You make a great point though

[SeriouslySearching]

This case does sound like the military put their so-called stamp on it and they decided what was to go out to the media. They sullied her name, if I am to believe her family, and THEY are the ones that decided this was nothing to investigate. I am so angry that Maria wasn't protected in the first place while on the base and even mor angry that the military found a way NOT to believer her until this baby was born. They GAVE him motive. How can they take NO responsibility in what has transpired from their investigation? No way!

[calidreamin]

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/2292589/

"Brown declined to comment when asked if authorities thought Christina Laurean was involved or even aware of her husband's actions. Laurean's wife, Christina, is "heartbroken," said her mother, Debbie Sue Shifflet."

I'm sure his wife is upset and heartbroken, but HOW is it possible that she wasn't "aware" that something had happened in her house, if there are massive amounts of blood on the wall (see above link).... Why did she not immediately contact LE? Was she afraid of her marine husband? Was she involved in some way? How can LE just "dismiss" the idea that the wife was involved or knew that a violent event had taken place in her house?

That is what I just don;t understand about this whole mess, where was the wife when Maria was being murdered and burned and buried in her home. The amount of time it must have taken for him to kill her in the house and then clean that up and then burn and bury her in the back yard. Did she work? Did she go away for a couple days when this happend? I just can't imagine.

[Littledeer]

The Military are a lot like Police:

PROTECT YOUR OWN AT ALL COSTS.

It's been shown time and time again how the Military covers their asses. Even so far as to lie. Anyone remember the football player?? Darn, can't think of his name, Tilden? or something like that.

To go back to the "adoptive" mother, I am adopted and I can see why this is getting us confused. My "adoptive" mother is My mother.

Now if this "adoptive" mother is divorced from maria's father, then whoever he married would become the step mother. Not a adoptive step mother.

[Littledeer]

I'm thinking that Christine knew what happened..............whether she was at the house when it happened or arrived thereafter, she knows more than we know right now.

[Cubby]

The Military are a lot like Police:

PROTECT YOUR OWN AT ALL COSTS.

It's been shown time and time again how the Military covers their asses. Even so far as to lie. Anyone remember the football player?? Darn, can't think of his name, Tilden? or something like that.

To go back to the "adoptive" mother, I am adopted and I can see why this is getting us confused. My "adoptive" mother is My mother.

Now if this "adoptive" mother is divorced from maria's father, then whoever he married would become the step mother. Not a adoptive step mother.


I agree. Was going to post something similiar before the server was busy.
I'm wondering now, and I have not read everything, if the "Step mom" adopted her husbands children. Easy to see how that could be confusing, if that is the scenario.

I too wonder where his wife was....

[Littledeer]

come on LE.

it's after 11:00 now............I'm sure you have found something by now!

[Cubby]

Oh Honey I know, hopefully I didnt write that the wrong way:blowkiss:

We were discussing last night two places he couldve gone. He was raised in NV and I do believe he was born in mexico. Those are the two places I would start for sure. Also thinking like him he knows how to survive like a marine. He could also be hiding out in the woods anywhere. There are mountains just 4 hours north of Jacksonville.

ETA how hard would it be for him to cross the border to Mexico, anyone know?


I imagine it would be easy, and if he is in Mexico, they will not extradite back to the states due to the death penalty, if I understand correctly.

ETA: if he was born there, chances are he still has family there.

[Indy Gal]

Regarding the status of Lauterbach's baby, Brown on Saturday said, "I believe that will be revealed today, probably as the medical examiner and CSI agents unveil the remains."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/12/missing.marine/?iref=mpstoryview

[Indy Gal]

I imagine it would be easy, and if he is in Mexico, they will not extradite back to the states due to the death penalty, if I understand correctly.
Well isnt that just great.:furious:

[Littledeer]

There is no treaty with Mexico to extradite back to the United States if the person is facing a death penalty charge.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Pharlap]

come on LE.

it's after 11:00 now............I'm sure you have found something by now!


I don't know how long it takes for the CSI to test the remains, for both mom and baby....
Anyone know, have a degree in this stuff?:waitasec:

[Indy Gal]

I don't know how long it takes for the CSI to test the remains, for both mom and baby....
Anyone know, have a degree in this stuff?:waitasec:
No degree but I expect it to take most of the day

[Elphaba]

Canada nor Mexico will extradite if the person faces the DP.

[SeekingJana]

Kool Look:

I'm confused. If it's the step-mother that said Maria was bipolar, etc., how does your post above fit in with that?

It's getting kind of sad that the media started confusing a MOTHER, which is exactly what an adopted child has, a mother, with a step-mother. Mary Lauterbach is/ was Maria's mother. Maria was adopted when she was 19 months old. Mary is the only mother Maria knew, most likely.

To most families, their adopted babies are as precious as gold to them. There is no distinction between the children who are adopted and the ones who are born from their own bodies.
My family and extended family are full of happy, loved adults who were adopted babies. We are loved very very much.
No distinction has ever been made except that those of us who are adopted have 2 birthdays to celebrate with our parents, the day we were born and the day came to our families.
None of us can really say at this point what Mary and Marie's relationship was, but I am sure they are grieving now to know that their daughter, niece, etc and their grandbaby, no matter how he or she was conceived, are dead. Maybe the media was looking for a sound byte and the mother accidently said something imprudent in haste.. Maybe she wanted to believe that Maria lied instead of that Maria had been raped, was missing, was in jeopardy, might be dead. I can see that happening. Some people use denial to cope.

We are told that the last known phone call from Maria was to her mother.
Based on that alone, I have to believe that they had a loving and good relationship overall.

I think this is a grieving family faced with the knowledge of the horrific murders of their daughter and her baby. What kind of animal cooks a woman and her baby in his backyard? :eek: :eek:
What if that was your loved one in that pit?

My love and prayers go out to Maria's family today, and I pray that maybe there will be enough evidence to not only convict this man of killing Maria, but of also being the father of her baby through rape.
Remember- NC does NOT have a fetal murder law.

[ceeaura]

I have got to rant.So forgive me in advance.

I am furious :furious:!This young lady was let down on so many levels.

The CO (commanding officer) of their command should be dishonorably discharged and charged with something!Among other higher ups who did not do the right thing at the start of this.

Once the allegation was made she or he should have been transfered to another duty station.He really should have been put into the brig IMO and why he wasn't I am at a loss.

I have this scenerio in my head that it went sort of like this...

This POS raped her.She reported it.He in turn said yea we had a one night thing.She wanted me to leave my wife I wouldn't so now she is accusing me of rape.All his friends bought it even the CO from what it sounds like.

Yea I think she did try to stay friendly with him.I can't blame her one bit.Can you imagine going to work everyday and seeing him and getting harrassed by him and his crew?!Getting your car keyed ect :mad:

The COs and MPs let her down.Now she is dead and I hope heads roll.I hope that the people that harrassed her are charged with something and put out of service also :mad: I hope now that they know they took the side of a murder that their conscious reminds them of that for a long time.

[Indy Gal]

^ my feelings exactly!

Also in the uncles interview he says she was not friendly with him after the fact.

[SuziQ]

I'm still not buying that Maria had a "friendly" relationship with her rapist. I am also not buying that Maria went to him. For one thing her car was left in the bus station parking lot. She was abducted, IMO. There was no way her rapist could let the DNA test be done on that baby. He would be in trouble with his wife to say the least, convicted of rape charges and tossed out of the Marine's. The Marine's signed Maria's death sentence when they ordered the pending DNA test to be done.

[Pharlap]

I'm still not buying that Maria had a "friendly" relationship with her rapist. I am also not buying that Maria went to him. For one thing her car was left in the bus station parking lot. She was abducted, IMO. There was no way her rapist could let the DNA test be done on that baby. He would be in trouble with his wife to say the least, convicted of rape charges and tossed out of the Marine's. The Marine's signed Maria's death sentence when they ordered the pending DNA test to be done.


Ditto, more cover up...

[SuziQ]

Ceeaura, I agree with you. If Maria was friendly it was only to the extent of having to survive a hostile atmosphere and save her job.

[SeekingJana]

I feel exactly as you do. Outraged, extremely angry that a 20 year old woman was let down by every person who could have helped her, both in life, and after she was dead.
This is an extremely horrific crime and it's hard not to feel overwhelmed by anger. I had to take a break last night.. I have felt that she was dead since I posted the first post about her here. As more details have emerged, the sadder, angrier and sicker I have felt. It's normal to feel these things. The POI is a POS in all ways, and probably a few more. He was Maria's superior according to what Sheriff Stupid said yesterday, so there's no telling what he may have put in her file, or said about her. I think the Marines failed her as well as local LE, starting at the time of the rape.


I have got to rant.So forgive me in advance.

I am furious :furious:!This young lady was let down on so many levels.

The CO (commanding officer) of their command should be dishonorably discharged and charged with something!Among other higher ups who did not do the right thing at the start of this.

Once the allegation was made she or he should have been transfered to another duty station.He really should have been put into the brig IMO and why he wasn't I am at a loss.

I have this scenerio in my head that it went sort of like this...

This POS raped her.She reported it.He in turn said yea we had a one night thing.She wanted me to leave my wife I wouldn't so now she is accusing me of rape.All his friends bought it even the CO from what it sounds like.

Yea I think she did try to stay friendly with him.I can't blame her one bit.Can you imagine going to work everyday and seeing him and getting harrassed by him and his crew?!Getting your car keyed ect :mad:

The COs and MPs let her down.Now she is dead and I hope heads roll.I hope that the people that harrassed her are charged with something and put out of service also :mad: I hope now that they know they took the side of a murder that their conscious reminds them of that for a long time.

[Indy Gal]

Steiner denied that his niece had any kind of relationship with her attacker. Lauterbach had been forced to rent a room off base because of harassment at Camp Lejeune, he said.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2292339/

ETA in one of the links I posted back, cant find it sorry, he also said her car was keyed and she was "slugged" in the face

[SeekingJana]

Canada nor Mexico will extradite if the person faces the DP.

Two words- Bounty Hunter.

[Storm]

But...her mother was interviewed and I heard and saw her myself
say those things Thursday...
She told the world..not just the military..



I was just watching a CBS interview with a family member and if what he is saying is true, it looks like the officials there in CLJ were more worried about brushing this under the rug and had help from the Sheriff... he says that LE told them not to even come down to NC because CLJ was taking care of the matter. Come to find out, they (the military) weren't doing much about her being missing.

This being said: I have a feeling that the leak of her mother saying she was a pathological liar and bipolar was done so as to keep the case focused off of the military, by tarnishing Maria's image via her own mother's words. (It was her adopted mother, not her step-mom, and from my understanding, the info was gathered from the mother by investigators under the guise of confidentiality.) Don't get me wrong, it does seem cold her mother would say that about her, but with more information coming to light, I am becoming very suspect of things and thinking the mother's words may be being used out of context as part of a military cover-up. Something isn't right about this case, in regards of military involvement...

CLJ: Camp Lejeune

[Indy Gal]

Only asking as A friend but can we leave the mom out of this for the mean time. None of us really know her intentions or anything so it is really hard to form an opinion on it, Ya know. And as Jaded pointed out yesterday, she is a vic as well.

[less0305]

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/2292589/

"Brown declined to comment when asked if authorities thought Christina Laurean was involved or even aware of her husband's actions. Laurean's wife, Christina, is "heartbroken," said her mother, Debbie Sue Shifflet."

I'm sure his wife is upset and heartbroken, but HOW is it possible that she wasn't "aware" that something had happened in her house, if there are massive amounts of blood on the wall (see above link).... Why did she not immediately contact LE? Was she afraid of her marine husband? Was she involved in some way? How can LE just "dismiss" the idea that the wife was involved or knew that a violent event had taken place in her house?

The blood was cleaned and painted over. I assume LE found it by luminol. I'm not saying she didn't know. I'm just thinking if he did clean up and paint - then maybe she didn't know. If I came home today and my husband said he painted a wall - I don't think the first thingthat would go through my mind is "Oh, my God, he's killed someone and is covering up blood." As for splatters on the ceiling, they could be minute, teeny, tiny splatters. I don't look up at my ceilings after returning home and I dang sure wouldn'tnotice any teeny splatters. I'm giving the wife the benefit of the doubt right now until further evidence of complicity. I can't imagine a day-to-day wife immediately suspected her husband of murder based on a paint job. With luminol I'm sure the police saw a horrific site. To the naked eye - it could have just been explained away by making a mess, damaging a wall by accident, and painting over it,etc. Who doesn't want to believe their husband and in my wildest dreams I wouldn't imagine my husband murdering someone in my home just because he painted a wall.
P.S. I'm giving the mom a pass now also. No one knows what they might say in time of duress or how it might come out when you meant it some other way. I'm betting she just hoped upon hope that she had run away because of everything going on and she just wanted people to be on the look out for her to bring her home safely and to treat her with kid gloves if they did find her out there somewhere. Again, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the mom until I'm shown she's a mean, horrible, unthinking person. I just don't believe that's the case. If Maria didn't have a good relationship with her she certainly wouldn't have called her two and three times a day every day. She would have avoided her like the plague.

[ceeaura]

She kept it civil is what I should have said...that civil is being spun by him and the military into being "friendly" which sounds better and looks better for them.

Being in the postion where she had to see/work with him and in that enviroment she could not get emotional or hysterical.She had to remain calm and civil.

I think the young lady showed a lot of courage and strength.To be all alone like she was with no help from her fellow marines and COs .It just :furious: me!

[SeekingJana]

Steiner denied that his niece had any kind of relationship with her attacker. Lauterbach had been forced to rent a room off base because of harassment at Camp Lejeune, he said.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2292339/

Yes, and Dunlap has backed that up too. Said he felt sorry for her. Well, why would he feel sorry for her unless he believed that she had been raped, and was being harrassed on base? It all fits. She didn't lie.

She was victimized again and again, without any legal protection, so she was easily victimized to her death. It is just awful beyond words. I hope that many ranks are stripped at Camp LJ when this is all over. NCIS is investigating- we saw that at the presser yesterday. Let's hope the people who stood by and let the harrassment happen, as well as the active participants are all punished.

A young woman and a baby who never had a chance to live are dead because of the actions and inactions coming out of Camp Lejune. I can't think of anything worse. At all.

[Storm]

It was not an email that I saw..it was the adoptive
mother talking about her daughter on either
MSNBC or CNN on Thursday..
anyone else SEE her say those things?









After Mary Lauterbach reported her daughter missing, an investigator asked her to send an e-mail telling him "everything she knew."

Court documents filed in North Carolina this week indicated the mother told investigators Maria was bipolar and had a history of compulsive lying.

"Never in my wildest dreams," she said Friday, "did I think it would become a national press release."

[Indy Gal]

Very true Less. If I came home and BF had painted I would be like heck yeah..LOL That thought would be the farthest from my mind

[SeekingJana]

Only asking as A friend but can we leave the mom out of this for the mean time. None of us really know her intentions or anything so it is really hard to form an opinion on it, Ya know. And as Jaded pointed out yesterday, she is a vic as well.

At this point, with Maria and her baby dead, I agree. Please, let's not bash this mother any further. Maybe she was told to say things negative about her daughter in the hopes that the POI would not leave town. The sherrif said they had been watching him and were closing in on him ( apparently on bicycles) but maybe there's a reason behind confusing words which we don't know yet.

Maria's family deserves our prayers, our support and our respect now. They are grieving a horrible loss.

[Elphaba]

Moving on... has any pressers been announced for the day?

[calidreamin]

She kept it civil is what I should have said...that civil is being spun by him and the military into being "friendly" which sounds better and looks better for them.

Being in the postion where she had to see/work with him and in that enviroment she could not get emotional or hysterical.She had to remain calm and civil.

I think the young lady showed a lot of courage and strength.To be all alone like she was with no help from her fellow marines and COs .It just :furious: me!

That is another thing that just reeks about this, why on earth would the Marines leave them working together after she made a rape allegation against him? I can't imagine how horrible it must have been for her to be working with him after that. The Marines have alot to answer for in the way she was treated and the horrible way they have treated her.

[Indy Gal]

Moving on... has any pressers been announced for the day?
Not yet and me the loser is refrehing my google search page like every single minute.

[Pharlap]

12 eastern time, next update...

[Storm]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/01/marine_missing_girl_update/

[SeekingJana]

We don't know that his wife was present when he killed, burned and half- buried Maria and her baby.

MAYBE he gave her $2000 and said- go out of town for a few days to go do Christmas shopping with a friend or her family.

We just don't know at this time.

Another point is this- if this man is capable of rape, possible torture, murder, dismemberment and then burning a corpse in his back yard, what is to say that his wife was not also subjected to ABUSE at that time? She has a little child to protect too.

We just don't have all the facts right now.

[Indy Gal]

12 eastern time, next update...
:blowkiss: Thank you that is in 28 minutes, Who has fox, cnn, or any news? Will someone offer to update us on what is said.

[Elphaba]

Not yet and me the loser is refrehing my google search page like every single minute.

TY, Indy... I'm right with ya. :)

[calidreamin]

:blowkiss: Thank you that is in 28 minutes, Who has fox, cnn, or any news? Will someone offer to update us on what is said.

I will I have fox on.:)

[Elphaba]

12 eastern time, next update...

TY!!!

[Indy Gal]

I will I have fox on.:)
Awesome:blowkiss: can someone also have cnn on, just in case.

[Pharlap]

:blowkiss: Thank you that is in 28 minutes, Who has fox, cnn, or any news? Will someone offer to update us on what is said.


n/p:D
Heard that on cnn this morning, but I bet(maybe lose) all the cable news channels will have it

[Indy Gal]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/01/marine_missing_girl_update/
Thank you for posting this, although it just rubs me the wrong way. They didnt even mention that she had been found in another maries backyard. I am really starting to not like these people. Sorry!

[Littledeer]

Is is true that Maria withdrew the charges as the article said? If so, then what was so threating to Lorean? Or am I missing something here?

I can't get to a tv.......would someone please post what cnn says??

Thanking in advance!!!

[Indy Gal]

LD If I am reading all right she withdrew then decided to go forth. Anyone?

[Dobler]

She probably withdrew the complaint because of all the harassment that she endured.

[MCDRAW]

You know the marines are scrambling to cover their butts now!

[Beyond Belief]

Fox is still talking politics.

[Indy Gal]

1200 here anything being said yet. Yes I have been told many times to be paitent LOL

[BritDees]

From CNN news..human remains have definitely been found.. do not know if they are hers yet. LE are at the house now.

No tips or no leads as to where Laurean might be.

[Indy Gal]

Thanks BD!! And thanks BB

[Storm]

Dan Abrams shows a live interview with mother on January 9th..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22594697#22581056

[Indy Gal]

The local medical examiner says investigators found the burned remains about six inches underground. They will have to be identified using dental records.

http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.nc/2a80e9c3-www.wlos.com.shtml

[BritDees]

I flicked through several stations, and not much of anything was said that we don't already know.

[SuziQ]

Is is true that Maria withdrew the charges as the article said? If so, then what was so threating to Lorean? Or am I missing something here?

I can't get to a tv.......would someone please post what cnn says??

Thanking in advance!!!

This is my thoughts on that. She was raped, filed charges then the harrasment begins. She's gotten slugged and her car keyed and is being threatened by her rapist and his friends with losing her job. So she recants the charges. She is now being faced with making a false report and really is in danger of being kicked out of the marines. Now she's in between a rock and a hard place. To prove her innocense she now has to prove the rape charges. Hence the pending DNA test. And it got her killed.

[BritDees]

What I don't understand is why didn't the Marines move one of them to a different location during the investigation? Seems like a simple solution to all of this.

[Indy Gal]

I agree suziq

[Beyond Belief]

JACKSONVILLE, N.C. (AP) -- Authorities detailed gruesome evidence of a pregnant Marine's death Saturday as they excavated human remains from a fire pit where they believe a comrade she accused of rape burned and buried her body.
Investigators have found blood spatters on the ceiling and a massive amount of blood on the wall of the home of Marine Cpl. Cesar Armando Laurean, Onslow County Sheriff Ed Brown said. It appeared that someone had tried to wash and paint over the blood, he said.
"I believe this is going to be a bizarre discovery today," Brown said. "The blood splatters indicate a violent, violent attack."
In a fire pit in the backyard of Laurean's home, authorities found burnt human remains buried up to a foot in ashes and dirt, said Dr. Charles Garrett, the county medical examiner. Once state investigators finish slowly scraping dirt from the site, protected by a tarp and two white tents, the remains will be sent to the state medical examiner's office in Chapel Hill for identification using dental records.
Garrett did not provide any other details, including whether the remains included those of a child.
A nationwide search for Laurean continued Saturday, a day after Brown identified him as the key suspect in the death of 20-year-old Lance Cpl. Maria Frances Lauterbach. She disappeared in December, just days after meeting with military prosecutors to talk about her allegation that Laurean raped her. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MISSING_MARINE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[calidreamin]

What I don't understand is why didn't the Marines move one of them to a different location during the investigation? Seems like a simple solution to all of this.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: That is my thought exactly! I have to wonder by them leaving her in such a vulnerable position if maybe they were trying to intimidate her to drop the charges. Then the Marines come out looking all sqeeky clean and we all know how important that is to them.:furious:

[STEADFAST]

You know, it wasn't "the military" who dropped the ball and contributed greatly to this tragedy. By that, I mean it wasn't some anonymous entity. She should have been protected by specific, identifiable people after she brought rape charges, and these people should have appropriately reacted to her disappearance. If they dropped the ball, and it's looking like they sure did, they need to be held accountable.

Combat Logistics Regiment 27
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/unitsites/clr27

2nd Marine Logistics Group
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/UnitSites/2dmlg

II Marine Expeditionary Force
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/Public%2FIIMEFpublic.nsf/unitSites/iimef

[ceeaura]

Exactly Steadfast.Her and his CO of their duty station is the first one that should be held accountable(She prolly went to her own CO first).When she brought charges there would have been her CO and the head honcho of the base making descions on things.Probaly a couple of other officers.Those people imo need to be held accountable and discharged along with the people harassing her.That sheriff needs to be fired imo.He let the military officals get in the way and taint this young girl.He should have been man enough to do what his county elected him to do!


ETA:Her Chain of command let her down.*I was trying to think of the term used and just had a brain fart.Will be interesting to see what happens to her chain of command.Will there be just 1 who takes the fall?

[peace9274]

She bought a bus ticket to El Paso ( never used) a day or so before she was reported missing. What was in El Paso? And why wasn't she going to drive her car? She asked if she could leave her car at the bus depot.

Reports say she and Cesar L. were on "friendly terms" and that they still worked together in the same office.

Was he playing her along, implying that he cared for her, so she'd drop the charges? Did he tell her he'd meet her in El Paso... and he'd drive her car there?

Someone moved the car shortly after the ticket was bought, from the bus depot to a diner/fast food place, where it was left for several weeks.

How did she get to his house, where she was murdered?
Did he lure her there? Did she go there to confront Cesar's wife?
Was the wife involved in the murder?

I'm sure she was afraid for her life, from the threats, abuse, and harassment she received. (Been there, when I went thru an abusive divorce.)

Did she drop the charges because she feared for her life? (I did.)

Did he make promises he wouldn't keep, to keep her silent? (Mine did.)

Just some Hmmm questions I have.....

P.S. People used to tell me almost everyday that I was so lucky to be
alive and to be rid of the creep I married.

[Indy Gal]

CONGRATS!! to you peace for getting away from that creep

[peace9274]

CONGRATS!! to you peace for getting away from that creep

Thank you, Darlin' ...... :blowkiss:

[boody]

Will there be a press conf. or news special on this today?

[Indy Gal]

Will there be a press conf. or news special on this today?
None noted yet
Thank you, Darlin' ...... :blowkiss:
You are VW:blowkiss:

[peace9274]

It makes me so sad that so many other women didn't get away alive.
As a psych nurse/case manager... I try to help many other abused
women get away. It's frustrating when they don't leave or won't press charges.

But, I now understand their reasons for not leaving, their excuses for defending the jerks, their thinking they won't be physically harmed, .....
AND their believing his love, charm and charisma are authentic.

[nanandjim]

You know, it wasn't "the military" who dropped the ball and contributed greatly to this tragedy. By that, I mean it wasn't some anonymous entity. She should have been protected by specific, identifiable people after she brought rape charges, and these people should have appropriately reacted to her disappearance. If they dropped the ball, and it's looking like they sure did, they need to be held accountable.

Combat Logistics Regiment 27
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/unitsites/clr27

2nd Marine Logistics Group
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/UnitSites/2dmlg

II Marine Expeditionary Force
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/Public%2FIIMEFpublic.nsf/unitSites/iimef
I agree. I know that when I was married to a Marine Corps officer, it was still a "good ole boys" network. It would not surprise me one bit if it were the exact same way now. Just think about it. If this girl's own mother is bad mouthing her, it was the perfect excuse for the military to take the married Marine's word that there either was no sex or that the sex was consensual. My bet is that he said that she made up the story completely. That's why he murdered her, because his story was about to be proven a lie.

Her superiors have the perfect out, thanks to this poor girl's mother. I'm sorry, but there would be no way that I would say anything bad about my child. Heck, my child is far worse than her child; and I still would not say anything bad. That's just my opinion.

[nanandjim]

She bought a bus ticket to El Paso ( never used) a day or so before she was reported missing. What was in El Paso? And why wasn't she going to drive her car? She asked if she could leave her car at the bus depot.

Reports say she and Cesar L. were on "friendly terms" and that they still worked together in the same office.

Was he playing her along, implying that he cared for her, so she'd drop the charges? Did he tell her he'd meet her in El Paso... and he'd drive her car there?

Someone moved the car shortly after the ticket was bought, from the bus depot to a diner/fast food place, where it was left for several weeks.

How did she get to his house, where she was murdered?
Did he lure her there? Did she go there to confront Cesar's wife?
Was the wife involved in the murder?

I'm sure she was afraid for her life, from the threats, abuse, and harassment she received. (Been there, when I went thru an abusive divorce.)

Did she drop the charges because she feared for her life? (I did.)

Did he make promises he wouldn't keep, to keep her silent? (Mine did.)

Just some Hmmm questions I have.....

P.S. People used to tell me almost everyday that I was so lucky to be
alive and to be rid of the creep I married.
Your thoughts are running along the lines of mine (that I posted earlier). My speculation is that he was stringing her along. He probably did tell her that he would meet her in El Paso. Someone at the bus station said that she parked her car there. It was moved for a reason. So, someone other than the victim knew her plans. I suspect that he made it out to be a grand scheme. He may even have told her that he would leave his wife but they had to set it up in a way so they couldn't be traced. Wasn't it said that the military was considering discharging her from the service? If so, maybe, she didn't think that she had much to lose. Plus, at 20 years of age, you don't really think about the consequences of your actions.

What if Laurean picked her up from the bus station parking lot and told her that he needed to stop by his house to get his things. Once inside, he murdered her. It was definitely premeditated, IMO.

I don't believe that his wife is in on it. She probably was told a pack of lies by her husband--lies that she believed. He probably told her that this psycho/stalker/liar was trying to ruin his life and marriage. She probably believed him. Geez...If she was beginning to doubt her husband, all she had to do was listen to the victim's own mother, who said that she was bipolar and a compulsive liar. I know that I would think that a person's own mother knew her child better than anyone... :(

[STEADFAST]

Her superiors have the perfect out, thanks to this poor girl's mother. I'm sorry, but there would be no way that I would say anything bad about my child. Heck, my child is far worse than her child; and I still would not say anything bad. That's just my opinion.

I don't think they have an out. They will be held responsible for their poor decisions, both before and after she disappeared. Also, if Lorean's attorneys are military attorneys, they will be held partially responsible for his flight.

As far as her mother goes, though, I bet her statements about her daughter, which were probably pretty complicated since she was probably trying to give a full picture of her child to help LE look in the right places, were taken completely out of context.

[nanandjim]

^ my feelings exactly!

Also in the uncles interview he says she was not friendly with him after the fact.
Plus, the uncle said that Maria may have "stretched the truth when under duress;" however, she was not a compulsive liar.

Thank you, Uncle, for standing up for the precious victim.

[nanandjim]

...As far as her mother goes, though, I bet her statements...were taken completely out of context.
I surely hope that you are right about this. :o

[boody]

watching a current interview with the bonehead sheriff... 2:30 press conference.

i'm guessing the baby may be alive?

[Taximom]

nanandjim, I'm in agreement with you and peace. I think he led her on to gain her trust but only wanted to kill her.

I've been wondering if the contact she supposedly made (sheriff said she initiated the contact) was due to her mom telling her she should give up the baby.

She calls him to let him know that's what she's going to do, or doesn't want to do, to see what he thinks. As the father, would he still have to pay child support if the baby is adopted out?

Anyway, I can't think of any reason for Maria to have initiated contact after that phone call with her mom unless it was about the baby's life after it was born.

I'm so upset with so many people right now that just watched this happen and are basically at fault for her death. She was so young, and probably very naive. :( This one breaks my heart.

We must all watch out for the pregnant women in our lives if they are in precarious situations.

[SLP]

I have been following this case and have to say that it has had a lot of twists and turns. I am saddened by the way that Maria was portrayed in the press before her remains were found.

The suicide thing is really strange. I have a hard time believing that she went to his house and slit her own throat. Even a harder time believing that he reacted to that by burning her and burying her in his own back yard. You would think if someone commited suicide right in front of you (that has accused you of rape no less!) that you would be on the phone to 911 and preserving the scene as much as possible so that LE could see that she did it herself. Also how possible is it to cut your own throat to the point where the wounds are so deep that you would die quickly enough to where calling 911 would not be an option?Doesn't make sense to me AT ALL.

What I have considered though is why he would come up with a story like this right now. I think it is a logical asssumption that he has been watching a lot of news lately since the girl that he had buried in his backyard has been splashed all over it. I am sure, if this assumption is true, it is possible that he saw another big news story that has been in national news too. The one about the husband accused of murdering his wife. That husband is just now going to trial after being free for almost 10 years! They have evidence against him but his defense all along has been that his wife commited suicide but hated him so much that she did it in a way that would frame him for her murder. To get back at him for being with someone else. Maybe he felt the walls closing in and thought that might be a last ditch defense he could use too especially with the recent reports of her being mentally unstable and accusing him of rape even though she was still keeping a friendship with him. Just thinking.

I really do need to step away from this (stayed up way too late last night reading here LOL) but I am waiting today to hear more and hopefully about the baby. It seems like this Sheriff with his interviews knows he is keeping everyone on the edge of their seats.

[Indy Gal]

watching a current interview with the bonehead sheriff... 2:30 press conference.

i'm guessing the baby may be alive?
Please why do you say this, are they leading you to believe this. OMG this would be a great outcome to a horrible thing

[bakerprune64]

Your thoughts are running along the lines of mine (that I posted earlier). My speculation is that he was stringing her along. He probably did tell her that he would meet her in El Paso. Someone at the bus station said that she parked her car there. It was moved for a reason. So, someone other than the victim knew her plans. I suspect that he made it out to be a grand scheme. He may even have told her that he would leave his wife but they had to set it up in a way so they couldn't be traced. Wasn't it said that the military was considering discharging her from the service? If so, maybe, she didn't think that she had much to lose. Plus, at 20 years of age, you don't really think about the consequences of your actions.

What if Laurean picked her up from the bus station parking lot and told her that he needed to stop by his house to get his things. Once inside, he murdered her. It was definitely premeditated, IMO.

I don't believe that his wife is in on it. She probably was told a pack of lies by her husband--lies that she believed. He probably told her that this psycho/stalker/liar was trying to ruin his life and marriage. She probably believed him. Geez...If she was beginning to doubt her husband, all she had to do was listen to the victim's own mother, who said that she was bipolar and a compulsive liar. I know that I would think that a person's own mother knew her child better than anyone... :(

Nan, I totally agree with your post. Well written:blowkiss:

[peace9274]

Or...... Maybe Maria's mother may have known that Maria was frightened and thus was going to renege on the charges against C.L. ... and that possibly she (Mom) knew that Maria was going to try to get away... to El Paso? Was Mom trying to help her daughter on dropping the charges?

I definitely think there's more to Mom's "derogatory comments" about Maria than just being critical of her daughter or just providing Maria's B/H.

Mom may have been hoping she was alive, probably hiding somewhere....
even after Maria had not contacted her Mom nor answering her cell phone for several days..... even after Mom contacted LE to report her missing.

[Cubby]

[quote=Taximom;1905439]
As the father, would he still have to pay child support if the baby is adopted out?

quote]

No, he would not, BUT for a legal adoption the mother would have to name the father, and, it's my understanding BOTH parents permission are needed as adoption terminates the mothers and putative fathers parental rights. Especially had already been named as the putative father. (Not sure if putative is the correct word...... but I think this is one of the reasons why that living baby that was dropped off at a safe haven drop off is listed on doe network, they need to find and get permission from teh father before the baby can be legally adopted ? )

[Taximom]

Thank you, Cubby. That in itself is motive, IMO.

[Cubby]

YW TM.

I'm not entirely certain on that as all states differ, but some states now have putative father registries for unmarried men. IF they are on that list a mother can not legally put up her child for adoption without his permission, and testing to see if he is the father. I think they are doing this to protect fathers rights.

[nanandjim]

...I've been wondering if the contact she supposedly made (sheriff said she initiated the contact) was due to her mom telling her she should give up the baby...She calls him to let him know that's what she's going to do, or doesn't want to do, to see what he thinks...
Very interesting. As others have noted, the father's signature would be needed for the adoption. Maybe, he thought that she was trying to trap him into saying something. Wasn't she due to testify at a hearing in the very near future? This could have set off panic bells in him. Thus, he begins his plan. Now, you have me thinking. What if he tells her that he knows family in Texas who will take the baby and raise him until Maria can get on her feet or that they will allow Maria to be involved in the baby's life?

There is a reason why she purchased the bus ticket to El Paso. There is a reason that her car was moved. There is a reason that money was withdrawn from her account. It all revolves around the lies of Laurean, not Maria, IMO.

To add: I don't see any of his relatives calling him a no good louse; a liar; a philanderer, etc. All I have seen in print is "His wife is heart broken." :rolleyes:

[peace9274]

I really do need to step away from this (stayed up way too late last night reading here LOL) but I am waiting today to hear more and hopefully about the baby.

ME TOO! :behindbar

It has taken me all day to take down the Xmas tree and decor all over the house! And I'm still not done! I need to keep coming back to see if anyone has any new info that isn't on CNN, Fox, Headline News.

I'm glad it was posted that there's going to be a press conference at 2:30 PM! Thanx! Maybe I can get something done in the next 40 minutes. :rolleyes:

[peace9274]

FOX is having a report/update..... "awaiting News Conference".

[Ticamom]

ME TOO! :behindbar

It has taken me all day to take down the Xmas tree and decor all over the house! And I'm still not done! I need to keep coming back to see if anyone has any new info that isn't on CNN, Fox, Headline News.

I'm glad it was posted that there's going to be a press conference at 2:30 PM! Thanx! Maybe I can get something done in the next 40 minutes. :rolleyes:

Hi Peace ! I know how you're doing cause that 's what we did yesterday afternoon. I had cnn on the tv and my laptop open in the living room so I could keep an eye on any updates at the same time we put away all the Christmas decorations and took out the regular decorations, moved furniture, etc. Boy, am I glad it's all put away !!!! Whew !

On another note, I literally cannot wait any more for an update on what they found in the firepit. And if Sheriff Duncecap tells us it's bizarre or if he goes into one of his yellow journalism monologues , I think I will pull out my hair and scream ! I need to know what is going on, and I need to know from someone who actually know what he/she is doing. :furious:

[SuziQ]

Live feed of the crime scene here pending the news conference:

http://www.nbc17.com/midatlantic/ncn/news/live_video.html

[peace9274]

ME TOO! :behindbar

Maybe I can get something done in the next 40 minutes. :rolleyes:

On the other hand.... :waitasec:

[SuziQ]

If you get a black screen click on play and you should see video of the crime scene.

[chicoliving]

TY SuziQ!

[ipswitch]

I have to comment on a few things (now, keep in mind, I think that the POS Cpl is responsible, but to be devil's advocate for a min)

10 years ago, my best friend killed herself (actually 10 yrs ago yesterday) by slitting her throat. She numbed her neck first with a topical numbing agent, and then slit it-cutting deep enough that she was probably dead within minutes according to the ME.

Two, for adoptions in NC the birthmother technically doesnt have to name the father ( I know this because I'm a birthmother, and placed my daughter thru a North Carolina adoption agency) YES, they are told to, but many birthmothers will just say they don't know, instead of listing the birthfather. So, if Maria had decided to place the child and recant the rape accusaions (which I did) she might have said she didn't know who the father is.

Again, I really feel the POS Cpl did it, but I just wanted to throw these thoughts out there.

[Taximom]

That's all good to know, ipswitch, and surely we have seen it all here at WS!

I just wonder if she slit her own throat why HE would not call 911, but take her body and burn it (allegedly). And why he's running.

I guess I can come up with my own answers. He got scared, knew they'd blame it on him anyway. So he covered up the suicide and is now running from the law because he's being framed. (ooh, I've been taken over by Geragos!)

[SuziQ]

Okey dokie, that screech that sounded like a scream scared the bejesus out of me! Anyone else hear that? Video of presser location now.

[peace9274]

I have to comment on a few things (now, keep in mind, I think that the POS Cpl is responsible, but to be devil's advocate for a min)


Again, I really feel the POS Cpl did it, but I just wanted to throw these thoughts out there.


Thank you for your comments, Ipswitch, and for sharing your experience.

AND -
I hope you're having a marvelous birthday, Darlin'

:HappyBday :HappyBday :HappyBday :HappyBday :HappyBday

[calidreamin]

That's all good to know, ipswitch, and surely we have seen it all here at WS!

I just wonder if she slit her own throat why HE would not call 911, but take her body and burn it (allegedly). And why he's running.

I guess I can come up with my own answers. He got scared, knew they'd blame it on him anyway. So he covered up the suicide and is now running from the law because he's being framed. (ooh, I've been taken over by Geragos!)
LOL TM:blowkiss: Geragros!

[SuziQ]

ipswitch, happy bday to you, happy bday to you, happy bday to ipswitch...happy bday to you!

[calidreamin]

Thank you for sharing with us ipswitch and happy birthday to you!

[Taximom]

Happy Birthday, ipswitch!

I can't hear anything. I see a picture of people entering a building though. Do I have that part right at least?

[SuziQ]

lol, taxi you have it correct if I do. I'm seeing the same thing.

[Cubby]

Thanks for sharing Ipswitch and have a wonderful birthday!

[ipswitch]

Thank yall for the birthday wishes! :blushing:

As you can tell by the timing of my friend killing herself, that wasn't the best birthday 10 yrs ago!

Again, I think the POS was scared for his career (not to mention his marriage) and killed Maria. I mean, if he was found to have raped her, his wife, career, all kaput. Not thinking straight, he killed Maria, and then freaked out realizing that this was worse than the rape charges, and tried to get rid of the body and the evidence the best he could. Thankfully, the POS can't claim PTSD from the war--he hadn't been to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I just wanted to throw the other scenarios out.

[SuziQ]

sound is up

[SuziQ]

Thank yall for the birthday wishes! :blushing:

As you can tell by the timing of my friend killing herself, that wasn't the best birthday 10 yrs ago!

Again, I think the POS was scared for his career (not to mention his marriage) and killed Maria. I mean, if he was found to have raped her, his wife, career, all kaput. Not thinking straight, he killed Maria, and then freaked out realizing that this was worse than the rape charges, and tried to get rid of the body and the evidence the best he could. Thankfully, the POS can't claim PTSD from the war--he hadn't been to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I just wanted to throw the other scenarios out.

exactly

[Elphaba]

I am unable to see the video... I just changed all of my systems over to Mac and the plugin for the feed won't work. :(

[Taximom]

That screeching "emergency" sound is all I hear. Is that what you have? It's 2:30...

[peace9274]

I can't hear anything. I see a picture of people entering a building though. Do I have that part right at least?


I can't hear anything either... but I see the video of people under a tent.

[chicoliving]

i thought that guy that walked out said 25 minutes....could said 2-5 minutes dunno

[peace9274]

In 40 minutes I took 3 ornaments off the tree!

[STO4]

News Alert: News conference on search for remains of pregnant Marine expected shortly in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Details to come... (everyone tune to CNN, etc to watch)

[Taximom]

I'm sorry, ipswitch. That had to be hard. I imagine that was quite a shock.

Elphaba, I hope they get the video up so we can let you know what they say.

[SLP]

Shouldn't it be starting now? Can you tell I am just a LITTLE impatient, LOL?

[Cubby]

I'm still curious about the El Paso Connection.

I think he's in Mexico...... wouldn't go to NV, and I think he took whatever money out of her account. I hear you can live on 14 bucks a day in Mexico.

[Taximom]

Hubby says "no live conf on Fox yet".

Heh, slowly he's turning into a WS addict and doesn't even know it. :D

[SuziQ]

all i have is the striped broadcast screen

[Cubby]

me too.

[Storm]

The guy came out about 5 minutes ago and said 25 minutes..held up 2 and 5 together..

[Taximom]

Weren't they late for their conference the last time?

[Pharlap]

Hubby says "no live conf on Fox yet".

Heh, slowly he's turning into a WS addict and doesn't even know it. :D


I clicked all stations..nothing yet.....
And been getting booted off of here, then saying busy try again later..
Wish this would get fixed soon...sry Tricia, know your doing your best...

[Taximom]

Hopefully someone here gives the scoop on the news conference! I have to run to the store but can't wait anymore. :(

[SuziQ]

ABC11 says 3pm on their website

[STO4]

I only have access to FNC right now, and its all politics talk right now, frustrating the media isnt taking this more seriously and think the primaries are more important.

edit: was referring to no news conference yet.

[Elphaba]

Thanks, TM!

[Pharlap]

Weren't they late for their conference the last time?

Yes, and was said tis morning, would be on at 12:30 also, didn't happen...
It takes time for these things to get done I guess

[SuziQ]

Hopefully someone here gives the scoop on the news conference! I have to run to the store but can't wait anymore. :(

I hate when that happens.

[peace9274]

Hopefully someone here gives the scoop on the news conference! I have to run to the store but can't wait anymore. :(

I'm not leaving.
Can you get me a coffee and .... something to fix for dinner?

On second thought ... just get a pizza. :)

[SuziQ]

video is up

[Taximom]

OK, pizza and coffee for everyone. Got it.

Maybe I can get hubby to call me at the store when the conf. comes on! lol

Thanks.

[SuziQ]

I'm not leaving.
Can you get me a coffee and .... something to fix for dinner?

On second thought ... just get a pizza. :)

I'm glad I did all my saturday chores at around midnight last night. Mopping, vacuuming, laundry. My neighbors must think I'm nuts. I have insomnia and water my plants in the middle of the night sometimes, so they are probably used to it by now. lol.

[Pharlap]

fox on and ready...

[Indy Gal]

we are in chat in case we go down again

[skymom]

I think you can PM me?

[Indy Gal]

I think you can PM me?
done:blowkiss:

[ember]

hmmm, I'm wonderi