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christine2448
01-12-2008, 02:02 PM
Continue here.

Link to 1st thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54847

Marie
01-12-2008, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the new thread - we needed it. I hope everyone will move their photos and important info over to this one :)

Marie
01-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Doe Network:

Unidentified Male - Case File 198UMSC (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html)

Unidentified Female - Case File 189UFSC (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/189ufsc.html)



Sumter County Sheriff's Office Unsolved/Cold Cases Files:

Unknown Persons (John & Jane Doe) (http://www.sumtersheriff.org/unsolved.htm)

Unidentified Persons (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/189ufsc.html)


Crime Library:

The Mystery Couple: Handsome Mystery Couple Found Murdered in South Carolina (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/)

Marie
01-12-2008, 06:11 PM
John's Stone of Destiny - originally posted 9-10-2007

(John was found wearing a gray Linde Star ring (linde star = an artificial star sapphire; Sapphire is the birthstone associated with September) in a 14 K yellow-gold mounting with the initials J.P.F. - *the coroner has confirmed that the middle initial "P" is larger than the two outside initials (leading to the assumption that P is the last name and J is the first name and F is the middle name = J.F.P.)).
__________________________________________________ ____
Today I decided to research John's ring. I found some very interesting information. I wish his stone would speak to us!!

Linde star sapphire ("Linde stars") are synthetic star sapphires that were first made by the Linde Air Products Company in 1947. The Linde company later became a division of Union Carbide. The Linde company went out of business in the late 70's.

Linde Stars (Artificial Star Sapphires) -Stone is created in a lab, along with the star and color. Linde stars were manufactured en masse by the Linde division of Union Carbide since about the early 1950’s.

Star Sapphire Legends and Lore:

Few if any gemstones have the mystery, the mystique, the legend and history of star sapphire and star ruby. Treasured since the dawn of man, they are a stone that's hard to compare.

This stone is know as the Destiny Stone or the Stone of Destiny. 3-crossed lines represent 'faith, hope, and destiny.' Many people believe the star to be a good luck piece.

The ancients regarded star sapphires as a very powerful talisman, a guiding star for travelers and seekers of all kinds. They were so powerful, they were said to continue to protect the wearer even after being passed on to someone else.

People have thought that they had demons or angels of light living in them. And because they turned dark at night, they were thought to go to sleep, just like people.

People have worn them for protection from evil spirits or attackers, they carried them in medicine and healing pouches, they are powerful spirits in the shamanistic world.

People use them for saying and seeing the future or for objects of meditation. They are said to speak for, or are the voices of the mineral world spirits.

The stars in all stones are believed to increase the gemstones magical powers, because it's the all seeing eye of the spirit contained in the stone.

They speak only when in the light and their voice is one of movement and shadow light shades. They are the symbol of the heavens.

Marie
01-12-2008, 06:26 PM
The Bulova Accutron Watch- originally posted 9-10-2007

Date Code = M8 = 1968 (=8 years before John Doe found)
Serial Code = H918803 = made in the USA __________________________________________________ __
The Bulova Accutron was first sold to the public in November of 1960.

During the Accutron’s heyday from 1960 to about 1970, only about two million units were sold.

The two (of six total) model considered most collectible are the model 214 and 218.

The 214, which came out first, has the set mechanism in the back of the watch. It is a small semi-circular lever that is lifted with a fingernail.

The 218 is distinguished by a conventional crown along the side of the watch, located at the 4 o’clock position.

Bulova introduced the 218 in 1965 and gradually phased out the 214 for several reasons.

Various models of the 218 were produced until 1977.

Bulova provided a unique dating system on their cases beginning in 1949 which allows accurate dating of any Accutron. The codes were used as follows:

A9 = 1949 (this was the first dating done)
L0-L9 - 1950's. L2 = 1952, etc.
M0-M9 - 1960's. M6 = 1966, etc.
N0-N9 - 1970's. N3 = 1973, etc.

The date code can be found at the bottom of the case back. It will be a two digit alpha/numeric code, not to be confused with the longer alpha/numeric case reference above it.

Serial numbers that begin with a letter were made in the USA.
The serial number contains no other useful information about the watch. Inside of the back cover there is a 4 digit case number printed or stamped. That number is the key to all information about the model.
__________________________________________________ __________

A Reply regarding the Watch - originally posted 9-11-2007
__________________________________________________ __________
Just received this...and I've answered back with a LOT of questions (*I had contacted an expert on Bulova watches) :)

I'm afraid that the serial number contains no useful information. This is thanks to the lack of foresight on the part of Bulova when they trashed virtually everything associated with early Accutron watches.

I do keep very good records and a computer search for H918803 turned up nothing. It's my habit to add a dash and then the date code after the serial number on all of my invoices so I tried H918803-M8 but again, no luck. I would have been pleased to contribute to your search but unfortunately, I have nothing for you.
__________________________________________________ _____________

More from the gentleman I emailed about the watch: originally posted 9-12-2007
__________________________________________________ ______
The Accutron watch was a high tech instrument in its day. It had a connection to the space program and was very popular with young people. It was cool, and relatively expensive starting at $125. Most of the ones that I repair were originally gifts from parents, wives, or friends.

Bulova was a world class manufacturer at the time, with manufacturing facilities in New York and Switzerland. Components were made in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of watches made during the 17 years of production (1960 to 1977) has been variously put at anywhere between 17 and 24 million.

They were marketed everywhere and sold with a sizeable discount to GI's at military PX's all over the world.

Finally, when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement. (*this was later checked by the coroner and no information was found inside the watch)

MaryLiz
01-12-2008, 08:17 PM
Thanks for starting thread #2 on here.

And thank you Marie, for moving the pertinent info into the new thread. I don't know how it works, but is there any way to merge the thread from Cold Cases into this one so the Mystery Couple are only in the Unidentified Category? Maybe we need the thread in Cold Cases too, I don't know. It's just kind of confusing with it being in 2 different categories.

Sable
01-16-2008, 05:41 PM
(John was found wearing a gray Linde Star ring (linde star = an artificial star sapphire; Sapphire is the birthstone associated with September) in a 14 K yellow-gold mounting with the initials J.P.F. - *the coroner has confirmed that the middle initial "P" is larger than the two outside initials (leading to the assumption that P is the last name and J is the first name and F is the middle name = J.F.P.))


I might have another explanation for the size of the initials. While looking at wedding invitations and such, it dawned on me that the ring could possibly be a wedding/engagement ring or anniversary gift. Some of the things I've seen such as invitations and other engraved items can be personalized with the bride and grooms initials, similar to the way the initials are engraved on the ring (center initial larger than first and last). So JPF could be: J for jacques/jock, P for his last name, and F for wife's first name?

Marie
01-16-2008, 06:24 PM
Yes, I've seen those too and it could be a possibility. Certainly something to keep in mind while looking for the identity of John Doe. He could have also bought or traded the ring from someone else and the initials might not even be his.

I want so badly for these two to be given back their names!!


I might have another explanation for the size of the initials. While looking at wedding invitations and such, it dawned on me that the ring could possibly be a wedding/engagement ring or anniversary gift. Some of the things I've seen such as invitations and other engraved items can be personalized with the bride and grooms initials, similar to the way the initials are engraved on the ring (center initial larger than first and last). So JPF could be: J for jacques/jock, P for his last name, and F for wife's first name?

MaryLiz
01-16-2008, 06:49 PM
I might have another explanation for the size of the initials. While looking at wedding invitations and such, it dawned on me that the ring could possibly be a wedding/engagement ring or anniversary gift. Some of the things I've seen such as invitations and other engraved items can be personalized with the bride and grooms initials, similar to the way the initials are engraved on the ring (center initial larger than first and last). So JPF could be: J for jacques/jock, P for his last name, and F for wife's first name?

That's a good suggestion, Sable. It had been talked about before and I even e-mailed the Sumter County Sheriff to see if we could get a photograph of the initials on the ring to see if they were all the same size. Unfortunately, he e-mailed me back and said the initials were too faded after 30+ years and would not show up well in a photo.

SeriouslySearching
01-16-2008, 07:02 PM
I wonder where Gary Hilton was back then? Hey, he had to start somewhere and they were at campgrounds possibly up and down the coast. His stomping ground and he had to start somewhere. You just never know where or when.

Teresa Larson
01-17-2008, 01:51 AM
That's a good suggestion, Sable. It had been talked about before and I even e-mailed the Sumter County Sheriff to see if we could get a photograph of the initials on the ring to see if they were all the same size. Unfortunately, he e-mailed me back and said the initials were too faded after 30+ years and would not show up well in a photo.

The engraved initials would NOT fade away on the band. The only way that happens is if someone wore them away from wearing it for years but even then that would take a lot especially since they were on the inside of the ring and not exposed to wear and tear. It isn't and never was an expensive ring. None of the jewelry they had on them was expensive. It's even possible the ring belonged to some one else.

MaryLiz
01-17-2008, 07:38 AM
The engraved initials would NOT fade away on the band. The only way that happens is if someone wore them away from wearing it for years but even then that would take a lot especially since they were on the inside of the ring and not exposed to wear and tear. It isn't and never was an expensive ring. None of the jewelry they had on them was expensive. It's even possible the ring belonged to some one else.

I had trouble believing they were THAT faded just sitting in a storage place too. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore is the one who is really investigating this case. Apparently the sheriff's dept and other LE in Sumter don't think this case will ever be solved and aren't very helpful when approached with questions about the case. At one point Ms. Moore, and a detective who is helping her with the case, was supposed to look at the couple's belongings again and possibly take some more pictures but I don't know if that has happened yet.

phenolred
01-17-2008, 11:23 AM
I could have sworn that somewhere on the old thread they said that the letters were all the SAME size. And I remember Verna saying something about the pyschic saying his name was Fitz something. I know dont beat me up for talking about the pyschics LOL

raindrops300
01-17-2008, 11:56 AM
I could have sworn that somewhere on the old thread they said that the letters were all the SAME size. ........


From Angie4b1g, post 397, page 16 of the original thread:

"Someone asked about the middle initial being bigger and the ME or detective (forget which) confirmed that all 3 initials were the same size."

MaryLiz
01-17-2008, 12:08 PM
From Angie4b1g, post 397, page 16 of the original thread:

"Someone asked about the middle initial being bigger and the ME or detective (forget which) confirmed that all 3 initials were the same size."

Thanks! I didn't have time to go back and find the original posts that talked about the size of the initials.

gardenmom
01-18-2008, 08:11 AM
I wonder where Gary Hilton was back then? Hey, he had to start somewhere and they were at campgrounds possibly up and down the coast. His stomping ground and he had to start somewhere. You just never know where or when.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this thread. Did you post it in Hilton's forum under SC possible victims?

raindrops300
01-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Although anything is possible, they did have a suspect at the time. They did find the weapon that killed the couple.
I couldn't find the link, but this information is in the first thread, page 13, post 302, posted by phenolred.

MaryLiz
01-20-2008, 08:03 PM
Although anything is possible, they did have a suspect at the time. They did find the weapon that killed the couple.
I couldn't find the link, but this information is in the first thread, page 13, post 302, posted by phenolred.


Here is the link to the page on the Crime Library article that talks about finding the weapon.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/4.html

believe09
01-21-2008, 04:59 PM
Back from lurking-I took a look at a few Surname websites to get a sense of the most common French surnames for example, although I can't remember if it was clear that he might have been Gallic vs say Scottish. In any case, I am not a master at the internet, but here is a link to the site:
http://www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/frenchsurnames.html

I thought it might be worth a thought to run the names, either most common or those that may be associated with a wealthy family, to see if anyone comes up. I don't have the time to devote to this and do a proper job, I have to say and you might have already done this.

Back to lurking...

Teresa Larson
01-29-2008, 07:03 AM
Whatever happen to them testing their DNA to see if they were related? Has anybody ever heard anything??

phenolred
01-29-2008, 09:07 AM
yes, The DNA results have NOT came back yet....still waiting

phenolred
01-29-2008, 09:32 AM
Back on the old thread someone had wondered about happenings in the area, around the time of the murders. They had even stated any large EVENTS that would have drawn crowds etc.
I had started some reasearch on the T-shirt he was wearing, since we have so closely looked the the ring, the watch and the matches, I thought why not the Shirt, it could hold some clues into what he was like or his interest.
The T-shirt was for IMSA Camel GT series race. Actually the Sebring( florida) race in 1975. That race was in January 1975. I went back and looked at the racing schedule for 1975 and 1976.
What I found very interesting is this, There was a race August 7, 1976 in Talladega Alabama. They were killed August 9, 1976. The next race on the schedule was for August 15th 1976 in the Poconos. Pennsalvainya.
So, I wondered maybe he was a big racing fan, or a crew member of some sort.
Maybe they left the race Aug 7, and were on their way to the race in Penn, they would have been traveling in the right direction for that.
There were alot of foreign race car drivers in this series, which could have attracted alot of foreign race fans. Also, the race just PRIOR to the Aug 7th race was in Sonoma California on July 25th 1976. So, if they were travelling the country following these races, they could have left Cali, and went thru New Mexico, WHERE THEY COULD HAVE got the Matches, since this as one of the ONLY states they could get those. Also, those type of rings she was wearing.
So here is the BIGGY and actually what led me to research along these lines. I was looking up drug smuggling in the 1970's and I found out that there was a BIG DRUG SMUGGLING Ring among some of the MAJOR racing teams in this racing series. Yep the IMSA had a big drug scandal and people went to jail, there were attempted murders etc etc. They were smuggling drugs to finance their racing teams. These were rich and powerful people. Of of the major players was a man named John Paul Sr.
The man the actually found the racing series even SAID IMSA COULD STAND FOR THE "INTERNATIONAL DRUG SMUGGLERS ASSOCIATION"

phenolred
01-29-2008, 09:36 AM
I found this info


It seems he is once again a wanted fugitive this time for the disappearace of his girlfriend at the time, in Florida

John Paul Sr., the former race car driver who fled to Switzerland and forfeited a $500,000 bond rather than face an attempted-murder charge in Florida, has been returned to the state to stand trial. The 46-year-old Paul, who also faces Federal drug charges that he conspired to import 200,000 tons of Colombian marijuana into the United States from 1975 to 1983, is accused of shooting a Federal drug witness at a Florida boat dock in 1983.
March 30, 1986
In the early 1980s, IMSA sportscar racing was rife with drug scandals. These involved John Paul Sr and Jr, Randy Lanier and the Whittington Brothers. John Paul Jr was jailed from June 1986 to October 1988 after pleading guilty to racketeering, while John Paul Sr was given a 25 year sentence after pleading guilty to importing marijuana, tax evasion, possession of a false passport and shooting a federal witness. John Paul Sr had shot Stephen Carson, a witness in the Federal inquiry on narcotics smuggling in north Florida, on April 19 1982 at a boat ramp. Carson actually survived 5 bullets at close range and it was his testimony that made for a quick conviction.

On Dec 13th 1983 he failed to appear for sentencing and a warrant was issued for his arrest. Judge Richard Weinberg of St. Johns County Circuit Court ordered his $500,000 bond forfeited. He was on the run for several years and was eventually arrested in Geneva, Switzerland, by FBI officers.
He finally got out of jail in 1992 and bought a 55-foot yacht which he lived on. He changed the name of his boat to from "Island Girl" to "Diamond Girl." John Paul Sr. disappeared again in 2001 and was wanted for questioning regarding his missing ex-girlfriend in Miami.



hr

MaryLiz
01-29-2008, 09:02 PM
I found this info


It seems he is once again a wanted fugitive this time for the disappearace of his girlfriend at the time, in Florida

John Paul Sr., the former race car driver who fled to Switzerland and forfeited a $500,000 bond rather than face an attempted-murder charge in Florida, has been returned to the state to stand trial. The 46-year-old Paul, who also faces Federal drug charges that he conspired to import 200,000 tons of Colombian marijuana into the United States from 1975 to 1983, is accused of shooting a Federal drug witness at a Florida boat dock in 1983.
March 30, 1986
In the early 1980s, IMSA sportscar racing was rife with drug scandals. These involved John Paul Sr and Jr, Randy Lanier and the Whittington Brothers. John Paul Jr was jailed from June 1986 to October 1988 after pleading guilty to racketeering, while John Paul Sr was given a 25 year sentence after pleading guilty to importing marijuana, tax evasion, possession of a false passport and shooting a federal witness. John Paul Sr had shot Stephen Carson, a witness in the Federal inquiry on narcotics smuggling in north Florida, on April 19 1982 at a boat ramp. Carson actually survived 5 bullets at close range and it was his testimony that made for a quick conviction.

On Dec 13th 1983 he failed to appear for sentencing and a warrant was issued for his arrest. Judge Richard Weinberg of St. Johns County Circuit Court ordered his $500,000 bond forfeited. He was on the run for several years and was eventually arrested in Geneva, Switzerland, by FBI officers.
He finally got out of jail in 1992 and bought a 55-foot yacht which he lived on. He changed the name of his boat to from "Island Girl" to "Diamond Girl." John Paul Sr. disappeared again in 2001 and was wanted for questioning regarding his missing ex-girlfriend in Miami.



hr





Great find, phenolred! Many of us have always thought drugs had something to do with this but never connected it to racing. This information could be very significant in pointing the investgation in a new direction!

Teresa Larson
01-30-2008, 02:00 AM
Back on the old thread someone had wondered about happenings in the area, around the time of the murders. They had even stated any large EVENTS that would have drawn crowds etc.
I had started some reasearch on the T-shirt he was wearing, since we have so closely looked the the ring, the watch and the matches, I thought why not the Shirt, it could hold some clues into what he was like or his interest.
The T-shirt was for IMSA Camel GT series race. Actually the Sebring( florida) race in 1975. That race was in January 1975. I went back and looked at the racing schedule for 1975 and 1976.
What I found very interesting is this, There was a race August 7, 1976 in Talladega Alabama. They were killed August 9, 1976. The next race on the schedule was for August 15th 1976 in the Poconos. Pennsalvainya.
So, I wondered maybe he was a big racing fan, or a crew member of some sort.
Maybe they left the race Aug 7, and were on their way to the race in Penn, they would have been traveling in the right direction for that.
There were alot of foreign race car drivers in this series, which could have attracted alot of foreign race fans. Also, the race just PRIOR to the Aug 7th race was in Sonoma California on July 25th 1976. So, if they were travelling the country following these races, they could have left Cali, and went thru New Mexico, WHERE THEY COULD HAVE got the Matches, since this as one of the ONLY states they could get those. Also, those type of rings she was wearing.
So here is the BIGGY and actually what led me to research along these lines. I was looking up drug smuggling in the 1970's and I found out that there was a BIG DRUG SMUGGLING Ring among some of the MAJOR racing teams in this racing series. Yep the IMSA had a big drug scandal and people went to jail, there were attempted murders etc etc. They were smuggling drugs to finance their racing teams. These were rich and powerful people. Of of the major players was a man named John Paul Sr.
The man the actually found the racing series even SAID IMSA COULD STAND FOR THE "INTERNATIONAL DRUG SMUGGLERS ASSOCIATION"


The matches could have also come from the Grants Truck Stops in New Mexico, Nebraska or Idaho. I also think IF they were drug dealers they would of had lots of money I have never known a drug dealer that was broke. I think the guy that had the gun that killed them has something to do with killing John and Jane Doe. I think somebody covered something up there.
http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownman1976

http://www.myspace.com/helpidunknownwoman1976

phenolred
01-30-2008, 08:22 AM
I noticed there is another famous race track near where they were murdered. Darlington. Also, I have been lurking around some of the racing message boards and have found several that are talking about the drug issue and how big it was within the racing community just THE IMSA SERIES. So after lurking for awhile I signed up at one of them and posted a message about the drugs and said something about a couple of unidentified people and wondered if it had a connection. They deleted my post rather quickly. Then completely blocked me erased me from the whole foruom. I tried sigining in and it says NO SUCH USER. I didnt say anything more than what the people on there were already saying. I had also asked since some of the people knew insiders, I asked if they might have know a guy and maybe a girl that were on a crew and they just dissapeared or stopped coming around 1976. HOW STRANGE why dont they want that asked?

here is a link for more info
http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=161778

Here's a reply on what Sr. is up to.

http://www.unsolved.com/0213-Wood.html (http://www.unsolved.com/0213-Wood.html)

annemc2
01-30-2008, 12:04 PM
Whoa, Phenol, that is creepy. Yet very interesting.

phenolred
01-30-2008, 01:17 PM
Yean now we need to try and find any connection between these people that were financing their racing teams with drug smuggling and South or North Carolina. We have the Whittington brothers, Don was one Randy Lanier was a name and John Paul jr & Sr. Marty Hintz was mentioned on one website. Im sure there are other names but this is a start. They only had one suspect, Lonnie Henry he was the man who owend the murder weapon and later admitted to filing off the serial number I wonder if he or his friends had ties to Racing.

Teresa Larson
01-30-2008, 11:12 PM
I think that the people that were hanging around that racing circuit back in 1976 are long gone. I am sure it's a whole new crowd of people now. It was 33 years ago. Like I said if these 2 were drug dealers they would of had money and they didn't seem to have any. I still think the guy that had the gun that was used to kill them has something to do with their death.

MeoW333
02-03-2008, 12:17 AM
I think these 2 young people that were murdered, had been traveling around; vagabond style, hippie nomad almost during that time, and had witnessed something they weren't supposed to. They were murdered so they wouldn't say anything. They could have had a small camp set up nearby; the killer/s would have gotten rid of their belongings. I think they came from out west..
I think some towns want to keep their secrets..

Sable
02-07-2008, 04:02 PM
Does anyone think there could be some kind of link to the Caledonia Jane Doe? She was found murdered in NY in 1979, she was wearing a jacket that may have some connection to racing, and, because of her tanned complexion (in November) and frosted hairstyle, there's a belief that she may have been from somewhere other than NY. Investigators took pollen samples from her clothing and it could have come from only four places, south Florida, Mexico, Arizona, and California. It's also been suggested that there may be some kind of connection to drugs. Racing, Drugs, Florida, it makes me wonder if there's some kind of connection between the two cases.

Aphra
02-18-2008, 09:02 PM
I don't know if anyone ever reads Brian's Predictions but I think this may be a possible lead. Someone requested a reading from Brian (Brian hasn't responded yet with a prediction, this is purely information) about a man named Jock from Vancouver BC. The dates sort of match but I don't know if this person has been ruled out as a possibility:

I would like to request a reading for a missing person. His name is John "Jock" Gwynne-Craig, his nickname is Jock, Jock Craig. He was born in N Vancouver BC April 1936 . However at the time of his disappearance he had a united states SS# and lived in Aspen Colorado. He was very athletic and he liked to ski, sail and fly. He disappeared in 1968, he left behind his small baby, his wife, and a business. His sister has not seem or heard from him since. The last know sighting of Jock was in 1978, when a social worker ( that had worked on his wifes case for help after he disappeared) spotted him in the Azores, Also. there is a report from 1978 that police boarded his boat called the "Happy Stars" in the Meditteranian for suspected drug running. He seems a highly unlikely drug runner as he was against that sort of lifestyle. He may have been the skipper of this boat, I think he owned a plane at the time of his disappearace also. He would be 72 yrs old today. His family wants to know what happended to him, it hurts them just not knowing if he is alive or dead. It would help ease their mind just knowing either way.

Aphra
02-18-2008, 09:03 PM
p.s. I realize there's something about a sighting in 1978, but who knows, right?

rhyno1974
02-18-2008, 09:31 PM
I don't know if anyone ever reads Brian's Predictions but I think this may be a possible lead. Someone requested a reading from Brian (Brian hasn't responded yet with a prediction, this is purely information) about a man named Jock from Vancouver BC. The dates sort of match but I don't know if this person has been ruled out as a possibility:



I googled that name and seen where "Phenolred" posted about that same name on another site. We can check with him/her. Likely has more information on him.

phenolred
02-19-2008, 08:23 AM
Does anyone think there could be some kind of link to the Caledonia Jane Doe? She was found murdered in NY in 1979, she was wearing a jacket that may have some connection to racing, and, because of her tanned complexion (in November) and frosted hairstyle, there's a belief that she may have been from somewhere other than NY. Investigators took pollen samples from her clothing and it could have come from only four places, south Florida, Mexico, Arizona, and California. It's also been suggested that there may be some kind of connection to drugs. Racing, Drugs, Florida, it makes me wonder if there's some kind of connection between the two cases.
Great Minds think alike.....Yesterday I was reading about her too. I had the thought about getting these two's clothing sampled. I read somewhere else that Texas A&M did the testing.

I also LOVAE the idea Belive posted about the oxygen in the teeth, it indicated where a person has lived its AMAZING!! I would love for these two to get tested for that, at least it would narrow down an area where they lived and we could concentrate in that area.

phenolred
02-19-2008, 08:30 AM
I don't know if anyone ever reads Brian's Predictions but I think this may be a possible lead. Someone requested a reading from Brian (Brian hasn't responded yet with a prediction, this is purely information) about a man named Jock from Vancouver BC. The dates sort of match but I don't know if this person has been ruled out as a possibility:

I would like to request a reading for a missing person. His name is John "Jock" Gwynne-Craig, his nickname is Jock, Jock Craig. He was born in N Vancouver BC April 1936 . However at the time of his disappearance he had a united states SS# and lived in Aspen Colorado. He was very athletic and he liked to ski, sail and fly. He disappeared in 1968, he left behind his small baby, his wife, and a business. His sister has not seem or heard from him since. The last know sighting of Jock was in 1978, when a social worker ( that had worked on his wifes case for help after he disappeared) spotted him in the Azores, Also. there is a report from 1978 that police boarded his boat called the "Happy Stars" in the Meditteranian for suspected drug running. He seems a highly unlikely drug runner as he was against that sort of lifestyle. He may have been the skipper of this boat, I think he owned a plane at the time of his disappearace also. He would be 72 yrs old today. His family wants to know what happended to him, it hurts them just not knowing if he is alive or dead. It would help ease their mind just knowing either way.



Good find However, it was ME that sent this request to Brian....AND I am HAPPY to SAY THAT JOCK has be FOUND ALIVE AND WELL...he and his sister and his son are now working on mending their relationship....

I found that Jock while searching for a match to the male doe, when I saw the posting from his sister I was SO SURE it was our Doe but after she sent me pics etc it was NOT HIM, and really strange side note Jock was found VERY soon after I posted that request to Brian, I have seen emailed him to say Jock has been found.

phenolred
02-19-2008, 08:32 AM
Does anyone think there could be some kind of link to the Caledonia Jane Doe? She was found murdered in NY in 1979, she was wearing a jacket that may have some connection to racing, and, because of her tanned complexion (in November) and frosted hairstyle, there's a belief that she may have been from somewhere other than NY. Investigators took pollen samples from her clothing and it could have come from only four places, south Florida, Mexico, Arizona, and California. It's also been suggested that there may be some kind of connection to drugs. Racing, Drugs, Florida, it makes me wonder if there's some kind of connection between the two cases.

She was also wearing the same kind of jewerly as Jane, turquouise. Indian looking

phenolred
02-19-2008, 08:45 AM
Ok now Im really freaking out... Another thread that I posted on yesterday, there are now talking about a racing connection. I NEVER mentioned it or even thought about it in that case.

Here is a link to the thread in Cold Cases under Bradford Photo. He was a serial killer

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60531

here are some of the post
Funny, when I viewed the pic and the wall, the first thing I thought was it had something to do with auto racing. Then I clicked on the link and it mentioned that Bradford picked up girls at race tracks. What do you think? Daytona? Never been there but I'm wondering... its in Florida where Suzanne's sister disappeared, where Bradford was said to be at some point in time. Just a thought. http://websleuths.com/forums/Image2.gif
Hi
I thought of auto racing too.Is there a race track in California?There is also a race track in Miami Florida where Rosario Gonzales came up missing in 1984. possible Christopher Bernard Wilder (serial killer)victim.Bradford sounds alot like Wilder to me.I wonder if they knew each other.Where all in Florida and what years was Bradford said to be in Florida?



here is a link to a poster of people they are trying to identify from pics found on the serial killer he was a photographer, do any of these people look like our UID Jock & JANE DOE???

http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Bradford-006-00038-3100-444.pdf

MeoW333
02-19-2008, 10:08 AM
Phenol, can you link me to where Believe posted about the oxygen in the teeth? I am wondering if those that live near cleaner air have more oxygen in their teeth. One time i had a friend come from Nevada to visit me at a home in NY and she was literally coughing up phlem that was black, as if she was in a coal mine. I think her lungs were not used to NY air.

phenolred
02-19-2008, 10:33 AM
Here is it

I did a copy paste from the Benjaman Kyle thread regarding a new technology that can narrow down the physical locations where someone lived. This was posted by Gina M today, and first raised by cubby-

"That info about the study of the oxygen in the teeth is fascinating! I went and read up on it...here are a few links for anyone who's interested:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=85576
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...tab01_la yout (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-babydoe_webnov29,0,6995280.story?coll=chi_tab01_la yout)

The guy who is working on these studies:
http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/geo/f...rcz/index.html (http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/geo/faculty/emeriti/schwarcz/index.html)
http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/geo/f...rch/index.html (http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/geo/faculty/emeriti/schwarcz/research/index.html)

Looks like it is called trace element geochemistry. "Schwarcz said bones collect oxygen isotopes that act as geographic markers throughout a person's life." "

I wonder if the researcher would be interested in trying to use this for this case-thoughts?

phenolred
02-19-2008, 01:20 PM
I looked thru these pics found with the serial killer here are the ones I think Could look like Jane Doe
#31 # 65 #70 #71

Any thoughts?
http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Br...8-3100-444.pdf (http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Bradford-006-00038-3100-444.pdf)

kygal
02-19-2008, 02:36 PM
I don't know about the air/oxygen test, but they also can do a test on bones that determine where they grew up/were from based on the water they drank. Apparently the minerals/chemicals in the water are different in different places and they can scan the bones to detect what levels are in it and link it to a certain place or area.

I've seen on here and Doe Network about them using water tests (especially near the Mexican border) to determine country of origin -- If they were international this might work.

phenolred
03-04-2008, 11:55 AM
I just thought of something and I will have to go back to the old thread and see who posted about contacting the watch people.

They had asked these people about the serial number, etc, so I thought maybe we should look for a serial number that is very close to the one on John Does watch, I would think they would be in number sequence and maybe we could find someone who ownes a watch will a closley matching serial number and we can ask them where they bought it. It would make sense that they would send watches with serial numbers in sequence to the approximate same area.

Ok I found the info it was Marie

the serial number is H918803 So Im thinking look for Serial number H918804 H918802 etc as just see where they bought them because from watch the watch expert guy said was that most of the ones he has worked on have been ones that were originals kept in the family etc here is the info Marie posted


I'm afraid that the serial number contains no useful information. This is thanks to the lack of foresight on the part of Bulova when they trashed virtually everything associated with early Accutron watches.
I do keep very good records and a computer search for H918803 turned up nothing. It's my habit to add a dash and then the date code after the serial number on all of my invoices so I tried H918803-M8 but again, no luck. I would have been pleased to contribute to your search but unfortunately, I have nothing for you.


More about the watch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More from the gentleman I emailed about the watch:
The Accutron watch was a high tech instrument in its day. It had a connection to the space program and was very popular with young people. It was cool, and relatively expensive starting at $125. Most of the ones that I repair were originally gifts from parents, wives, or friends.
Bulova was a world class manufacturer at the time, with manufacturing facilities in New York and Switzerland. Components were made in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of watches made during the 17 years of production (1960 to 1977) has been variously put at anywhere between 17 and 24 million.
They were marketed everywhere and sold with a sizeable discount to GI's at military PX's all over the world.

Finally, when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement.

XcomSquaddie
03-04-2008, 12:08 PM
It makes a lot of sense. However didn't LE say that the company did not maintain records from that long ago.

One idea might be to thoroughly interview the watch company about it's records storage practices from that time. There might be records locked away and forgotten somewhere.

Of course, that's a needle-haystack case evolving from another needle-haystack. But, what else can you do?

Carmen29
03-17-2008, 04:21 AM
Hi all. I'm new to the site and stumbled upon this case which baffles me... so excuse me for not knowing it all as well as you.
I just cant believe that with todays modern technology and databases they cant find something on at least ONE of them. i also cant believe someone isnt looking for them. unless they gave up a long time ago or there is no one left in their family to look. (ex parents passed on, no siblings)

Marie
03-17-2008, 04:31 AM
Hi Carmen. The sad fact is that many many young people are estranged from their families for many reasons - they come from abusive homes, they run away with boyfriends, the get into using drugs, etc. So many reasons. Yes, it's hard for many of us with close families to understand, but it does happen, and it happens a lot (especially during the era these two were found murdered). Families may look for them or wonder about them, but not to the extent of reporting them missing or of providing dna. Another sad fact is that someone may be reported missing - but only to the local agency, and that information is not passed on to a national database. The whole system, imho, is a sad mess and needs some serious organization.

Hi all. I'm new to the site and stumbled upon this case which baffles me... so excuse me for not knowing it all as well as you.
I just cant believe that with todays modern technology and databases they cant find something on at least ONE of them. i also cant believe someone isnt looking for them. unless they gave up a long time ago or there is no one left in their family to look. (ex parents passed on, no siblings)

kline
03-17-2008, 08:43 AM
While records for missing people in the 70's were considerably more spotty then the 80's and 90's there are many documented on the Doe Network and Charley Project...its hard to beleive that neither one of these young people are listed ,but that seems to be the case as I know many people have tried to match them up.
Ive always felt the back story to this tragedy must be incredible.

Marie
03-17-2008, 08:59 AM
I think the back story must be incredible as well. Like the 1979 case featured on AMW last Sat. The 16yo girl, Tammy Vincent, stabbed with an ice pick 44 times and set on fire and then shot in CA. Her partial dna didn't turn up anything in CA - but full dna turned up in CODIS. Turned out she had run away from home in 1978 and also had been a witness against a strip club/biker gang in Seattle AND she was under protection in a safe house when she went missing. You'd think that between her family and LE in WA looking for her that she would have been id'd a long time ago! Like I said, the system is a mess.

"Tammy was moved to a safe house in August of that year for her protection, but being a minor, she was transferred to a group home five hours outside of Seattle. She should have been safe there, but a lawyer working for the club owners tracked her down and convinced the group home to release Tammy to his care. Tragically, Tammy soon discovered that she was about to be handed over to the club owners that she was asked to testify against."

Carmen29
03-17-2008, 12:56 PM
I thought about this this morning. I was thinking that if he was having problems with his father/family then they probably dont even think anything bad happened to him. they might just figure he left after a fight and then just decided to cut all ties.
Didnt the park manager say that they stopped on the way going to florida (?) and stopped again on the way back. so i would be focusing on them returning to an area up in the northeast or canada.
seems odd how they were shot the exact same way.
Hi Carmen. The sad fact is that many many young people are estranged from their families for many reasons - they come from abusive homes, they run away with boyfriends, the get into using drugs, etc. So many reasons. Yes, it's hard for many of us with close families to understand, but it does happen, and it happens a lot (especially during the era these two were found murdered). Families may look for them or wonder about them, but not to the extent of reporting them missing or of providing dna. Another sad fact is that someone may be reported missing - but only to the local agency, and that information is not passed on to a national database. The whole system, imho, is a sad mess and needs some serious organization.

MaryLiz
03-18-2008, 07:13 AM
I thought about this this morning. I was thinking that if he was having problems with his father/family then they probably dont even think anything bad happened to him. they might just figure he left after a fight and then just decided to cut all ties.
Didnt the park manager say that they stopped on the way going to florida (?) and stopped again on the way back. so i would be focusing on them returning to an area up in the northeast or canada.
seems odd how they were shot the exact same way.

That's exactly what I have always thought about this case. One of the reasons John Doe's family may not be looking for him is because of the trouble between him and his father. The father (if he is still alive) may be very stubborn and STILL refuses to be the one to make the first move! He probably washed his hands of the matter and thought his son just left to start a new life somewhere. Very sad....

phenolred
03-20-2008, 09:08 AM
Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm

MaryLiz
03-20-2008, 10:20 AM
Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm


It's a possibility. Very sad to read that list and see entire families wiped out that day.

phenolred
03-20-2008, 11:48 AM
Ok I can post this here now since I have given the tip to Verna and she said they will be investigating this....


I was working on the theory that John Doe was in the Drug Trade.
I thought maybe his ring was stolen or given to him in trade for drugs the watch too.

So, I went back to newspaper archives from the 70's and I came across a murder that took place in 1974 in Baltimore MD.

Then man was S. Charles Friedenberg. I found out the S stands for SAUL.

Anyway I found out that prior to the murder he left the house wearing a yellow gold Bulova Watch and a Sapphire Ring.

He was driving a 1973 Cadilac, it was missing along with all of his credit cards and the Watch and the Ring. They found the Car in New York.

3 people were convicted of his murder. He was the president of the Overbrook Egg nog Corp.

here are the 3, I know I looked on the Maryland DOC website and one of them is still listed as being in prison there

Michel Leon McCree
Robert Lavern Dixon
John Junior Garris

https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Start.aspx?C=7726f311748ee484e6f051c6870093217cf8c b862d645f30&D=3fc7d00246d6de8385b643bd1e9daab716dc117c9b0a6e51

Marie
03-20-2008, 01:58 PM
I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.


Then man was S. Charles Friedenberg. I found out the S stands for SAUL.

Anyway I found out that prior to the murder he left the house wearing a yellow gold Bulova Watch and a Sapphire Ring.

He was driving a 1973 Cadilac, it was missing along with all of his credit cards and the Watch and the Ring. They found the Car in New York.

Marie
03-20-2008, 02:02 PM
I found two names. Various reports list 4 to 7 bodies still missing - of those known to have been in the Canyon. Many other people could have been there camping or stopped for the night... very sad.

GRAHAM, Teresa, age 9; Greeley, Colorado (never located - grandmother, mother, 2yo sister all found deceased)

MCCARTY, George W., Jr., 20, Newport, Rhode Island (never located - girlfriend CAMPBELL, Elaine PFC, 20, Ft. Carson, CO found deceased)



Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm

phenolred
03-20-2008, 03:40 PM
Yeah I was thinking maybe their families thought they died in this flood.

Since these 2 were apparently travelling about the country.

phenolred
03-20-2008, 03:46 PM
Well I guess I could have But I have kind of built up a kinda friendship with her and wanted to let her know about it

and plus too I wanted to be able to tell you guys if they were gonna check it out...

Not really that I COULDNT post it here first

I also sent it to the Baltimore PD to see if they still have records on the murder.

Records detailing the watch and the ring, and Verna said their investigator, was going to check this out....

I wish we could see the entire article it may go into more detail about the watch and ring. It was an appeal filed on the murders

There is also a Friedenberg that is a dentist in Baltimore that was also practicing back in the 70's wonder if he is related to S charles?

His family might know more about the ring



I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.

Teresa Larson
03-20-2008, 10:21 PM
[quote=Marie;2065786]I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.[/quote

It was not a sapphire ring it was a star sapphire - Lindestar ring It was a cheap ring A lot of people had them back then. I even had one myself. There is a picture of the ring in the thread some place. The serial number on the watch was no help either because the company does not have any records of it. That wasn't an expensive watch either so I highly doubt they were traded for drugs etc. I still believe the guy that had possession of the gun that was used to kill them had something to do with their deaths or knows who did it. The police should have investigated him more intensely.

Fairy1
03-21-2008, 01:12 AM
This case is so disturbing. These beautiful kids could have come from anywhere. It's hard to believe so much time has gone by and no one has claimed them. Makes my heart break.

rmf
03-21-2008, 02:15 AM
I think it is wise to be very very cautious about naming names of other victims of crimes and/or their families. This site is wide open and has a lot of lurkers. It would be a shame if someone just took it upon themselves to contact the surviving family members of the murder victim in Maryland and by posting that info here, that opens up that possibility... not good IMO

Marie
03-21-2008, 09:30 AM
You quoted me but I'm not sure you were talking to me or not. I was the one who did the research on both the ring and the watch so I'm well versed in what you were saying about both of them (exception - the watch *was* expensive according to the expert I contacted, not the most expensive version but certainly quite a lot of money for those days - expensive enough to be a common and nice graduation or Christmas gift).

Maybe you were confused by my reply that you quoted? The ring belonging to Saul Charles Friedenberg that was stolen was referred to as a Sapphire ring - I was expressing the hope that it would actually be found to be a lindestar sapphire like JD's, so that there is more of a connection between that case and this one.



[quote=Marie;2065786]I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.[/quote

It was not a sapphire ring it was a star sapphire - Lindestar ring It was a cheap ring A lot of people had them back then. I even had one myself. There is a picture of the ring in the thread some place. The serial number on the watch was no help either because the company does not have any records of it. That wasn't an expensive watch either so I highly doubt they were traded for drugs etc. I still believe the guy that had possession of the gun that was used to kill them had something to do with their deaths or knows who did it. The police should have investigated him more intensely.

Marie
03-21-2008, 09:32 AM
I hope they do still have the records so we can learn more about the ring and watch he had stolen. Might have been destroyed after the trials, but perhaps they held onto them for appeals. Fingers crossed!



I also sent it to the Baltimore PD to see if they still have records on the murder.

Records detailing the watch and the ring, and Verna said their investigator, was going to check this out....

MaryLiz
03-21-2008, 03:20 PM
Here's a photo of the ring again.




http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-5-John-Does-ring.jpgJohn Doe's ring

Teresa Larson
03-22-2008, 12:40 AM
[quote=Marie;2067482]You quoted me but I'm not sure you were talking to me or not. I was the one who did the research on both the ring and the watch so I'm well versed in what you were saying about both of them (exception - the watch *was* expensive according to the expert I contacted, not the most expensive version but certainly quite a lot of money for those days - expensive enough to be a common and nice graduation or Christmas gift).

Maybe you were confused by my reply that you quoted? The ring belonging to Saul Charles Friedenberg that was stolen was referred to as a Sapphire ring - I was expressing the hope that it would actually be found to be a lindestar sapphire like JD's, so that there is more of a connection between that case and this one.

Ohhhh I thought you were talking about JD's ring. I reread this and now see you were talking about the other guy. :doh:

Marie
03-22-2008, 10:11 AM
I need to make a correction regarding my post #4 on page 1. I stated that on the ring "the middle initial "P" is larger than the two outside initials". WRONG! That is incorrect. After looking through my notes I realized that Liz325 had contacted LE and was told that "all the initials are the same size." Liz also posted this information on the previous thread.

I apologize for posting the wrong information (I'm sorry Liz) - I wish I could change my post on page 1 so it doesn't confuse people working on this case, but I can't :(

Anyway, in my opinion this means that the initials on the ring are most likely in the order of First Name, Middle Name and Surname.

Marie
03-22-2008, 10:15 AM
No problem! :) Happens to me all the time and I figured my post just wasn't very clear.

Also, the research I did is on page one of this thread, and corrected info is on this page - others have also looked into the ring and watch, but I think their info is on the last thread.




Ohhhh I thought you were talking about JD's ring. I reread this and now see you were talking about the other guy. :doh:

MaryLiz
03-22-2008, 01:45 PM
I need to make a correction regarding my post #4 on page 1. I stated that on the ring "the middle initial "P" is larger than the two outside initials". WRONG! That is incorrect. After looking through my notes I realized that Liz325 had contacted LE and was told that "all the initials are the same size." Liz also posted this information on the previous thread.

I apologize for posting the wrong information (I'm sorry Liz) - I wish I could change my post on page 1 so it doesn't confuse people working on this case, but I can't :(

Anyway, in my opinion this means that the initials on the ring are most likely in the order of First Name, Middle Name and Surname.


Not a problem..between the thread on the Cold Case forum and this, they're so long and it's difficult to remember what was posted! :)

MaryLiz
04-04-2008, 07:37 AM
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=420192


rmf from WS has been in contact with a reporter for the National Post of Canada to publish the article. It appears in today's issue. Sumter County Coroner Verna Moore and Sgt. Ray Mackessy from the Sumter County Sheriff's office also assisted in the article. Sgt. Mackessy sent the whole file to the author, Adrian Humphreys. It's a great article with some new photos from the evidence file that show their faces closeup. (WARNING..GRAPHIC CRIME SCENE AND MORGUE PHOTOS)

Let's hope this article can generate some new leads and somebody recognizes them.

rmf asked me to post the link as she is on vacation.

Thank you, rmf, for all the time you spent getting this article out there!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

MaryLiz
04-04-2008, 12:08 PM
I also wanted to mention that there is finally a photo of the third ring that Jane Doe was wearing that we have never seen before. I tried to copy it here but can't..it's photo #5 in the slideshow in the article.

Reannan
04-04-2008, 01:24 PM
How much do we know about "Lonnie George Henry", the guy arrested for DUI who had the gun that killed the couple in his posession? Seems to me, his family/friends would be an untapped source of possible information.

ASU2USC
04-04-2008, 08:27 PM
The new photos are really intense. I'm surprised that they would publish them in a newspaper like that. That would NEVER fly here in the US.

I'm glad it happened though - hopefully someone will read it and see the photos and recognize a loved one.

MaryLiz
04-04-2008, 09:05 PM
How much do we know about "Lonnie George Henry", the guy arrested for DUI who had the gun that killed the couple in his posession? Seems to me, his family/friends would be an untapped source of possible information.

I knew I read something in an earlier post about him having problems with alcohol and also being responsible for accidentally killing a co-worker around the same time the Mystery Couple were murdered. I thought I would be up all night trying to find the post but I actually can't believe I found it just by picking a number at the bottom of the first thread and clicking on it! It was post #302 by phenolred which I've copied below. Sounds like he had some major problems.

Sole suspect
About four months after the murders, police in the Darlington County town of Latta arrested Lonnie George Henry for drunk driving. Under the seat of his car they found a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson with the serial number filed off.
Police sent the gun to the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division's forensic lab for tests and later concluded that Henry's revolver had killed the mystery couple. Bullets taken from the bodies matched with the weapon.
When officers asked Henry point blank if he was the killer, his polygraph said he was telling the truth. No, he hadn't pulled the trigger. But several other lie detector tests implied he was lying about something, at least, maybe covering up for somebody. Investigators wondered if someone had stolen his gun and whether a relative or friend of Henry's had killed the couple in Sumter.
But case files say Henry did lie about how he'd obtained the gun, first telling officers that he'd bought it from a truck driver. Days after the purchase, Henry told investigators, he discovered the serial number had been filed off. By then, it was too late to return the item for a refund.
SLED recovered the serial number and investigators tracked the gun from its manufacturer to Henry's brother, who said he gave it to Henry as a Christmas present four or five years earlier.
The gun had been bought, stolen and resold several times before falling into the hands of Henry's brother. But he said the serial number was still there on Christmas Eve.
When confronted with the new information, Henry confessed to filing the serial numbers off himself.
It remains unclear why Henry lied if he was innocent. And it also remains unclear if he really was. Case files say Henry was a recovering alcoholic and had also gotten in trouble with the law for a slew of minor offenses.
At the time, his son had recently drowned in the Pee Dee River. He'd also accidentally killed one of his co-workers, by backing a dump truck over him.
Investigative psychologists even wondered if he'd killed the Sumter couple and simply couldn't remember doing it.

Reannan
04-05-2008, 11:44 PM
Wow. Thanks Liz! This case haunts me. I live in South Carolina, and would love to network with others in anyway possible to help with this case. Review of courthouse documents that are not electronic, or whatever. This Lonnie Georgia Henry guy has got to be investigated further. So does the co-worker he supposedly ran over. My ghoulish and jaded mind is hearing cover-up to silence a witness. Henry hold the key to solving this case IMHO. I can't believe he wasn't arrested.

kline
04-07-2008, 05:11 AM
So...
They find him holding the weapon they determine was used in a double homicide.
They give him a polygraph (Which we all know are completely infalible) ask him if he's the killer.
He says no.
apparently they respond, "Well,thats good enough for us!"
They cut him loose and they apparently did little or no follow up in any sense of the word.
Am I the only one having trouble wrapping their frontal lobe around this?

MaryLiz
04-07-2008, 07:45 AM
So...
They find him holding the weapon they determine was used in a double homicide.
They give him a polygraph (Which we all know are completely infalible) ask him if he's the killer.
He says no.
apparently they respond, "Well,thats good enough for us!"
They cut him loose and they apparently did little or no follow up in any sense of the word.
Am I the only one having trouble wrapping their frontal lobe around this?

No, you're not the only one. After I read that article phenolred posted the first time I was dumbfounded that they let him go, and didn't pursue him any farther as a suspect. I also think it's possible that someone who knew Lonnie Henry took the gun either with or w/o Henry's knowledge. Even though Henry is dead now and they don't think they will ever be able to prosecute this case, maybe it wouldn't hurt to interview Henry's remaining family, friends, acquaintances and ex-co-workers to see if they can get ANY new information.

phenolred
04-07-2008, 11:21 AM
Awesome article so much new infomation and new pics !!!! YEAH thanks RMF for all the hardwork and dedication!!!

ALso, I think with these new pics at new angles they do look like they could be related to me know, I really never thought so before, but with the semi profile views their noses look alot alike to me....

MaryLiz
04-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Awesome article so much new infomation and new pics !!!! YEAH thanks RMF for all the hardwork and dedication!!!

ALso, I think with these new pics at new angles they do look like they could be related to me know, I really never thought so before, but with the semi profile views their noses look alot alike to me....

I agree with the new pics it does sort of make them look more alike.. It is a great article but I was NOT prepared for those photos when I looked at the article at 6:30 that morning! As another poster remarked, they are quite intense.

Thanks to you too, phenolred, for finding that article on Lonnie Henry. It is good to have some sort of background information on him other than what was mentioned in the Crime Library story.

Reannan
04-07-2008, 01:38 PM
How closely has an adoption angle been explored? Maybe they were siblings who were originally adopted as small children, and after going through the turbulent times of adolescence, they drifted away from the adopted family. Could that explain why no one has ever reported them as missing?? Most families I know who have adopted children would react the same as biological families and scream from the mountain tops that their child was gone. Just trying to think outside the box here as to "why" we don't have any good leads from missing persons reports. They just don't seem like your typical drifter that falls through the cracks of society, and they DO look like siblings to me.

phenolred
04-08-2008, 08:19 AM
I went back to the old thread to refresh my memory and I found this from an old newspaper article.
About a PI in Virginia his name Wolfgang I wonder if he is still working on this. But what I really found interesting was the info on the girls ring. This article says there were markings inside, but I have also heard there were NOT markings. If there are markings I would love to know what the are or what they look like so we could pursue that.


Wolfgang Stihl,
Stihl says the rings were probably handmade, and he hopes to use symbols on the inside of the bands to identify the artist and perhaps identify places where the girl bought the jewelry.

believe09
04-08-2008, 10:38 AM
I went back to the old thread to refresh my memory and I found this from an old newspaper article.
About a PI in Virginia his name Wolfgang I wonder if he is still working on this. But what I really found interesting was the info on the girls ring. This article says there were markings inside, but I have also heard there were NOT markings. If there are markings I would love to know what the are or what they look like so we could pursue that.


Wolfgang Stihl,
Stihl says the rings were probably handmade, and he hopes to use symbols on the inside of the bands to identify the artist and perhaps identify places where the girl bought the jewelry.




i PM'd you two phone numbers I found in VA for someone with that name...:blowkiss:

WholeLottaRosie
04-08-2008, 03:51 PM
Glad to see the new article. This case has always haunted me.

Here is something to think about though. There is/was a case called Summerfield (IL) Jane Doe. She was found in 1986 and only identified earlier this year. This woman was one quite a bit older than the Doe info had said, and, she was from California, had been adopted and had not been heard from by her adoptive family since 1976 - ten years before she was found murdered in Southern IL. Her family was not in any way looking for her. That is her adoptive family. Apparently they had issues in her teens and after she took off, they pretty much wrote her off. This bothers me and has made me look at things differently. For example she was close to 30 and the Doe info showed her as 17 - 22, IIRC and I don't feel like looking it up right now as the whole case bums me out so bad. But, then again she wasn't in any missing persons list anywhere. Just something to think about, not sure why I felt like sharing this here, but, I did.

Teresa Larson
04-09-2008, 12:44 AM
I went back to the old thread to refresh my memory and I found this from an old newspaper article.
About a PI in Virginia his name Wolfgang I wonder if he is still working on this. But what I really found interesting was the info on the girls ring. This article says there were markings inside, but I have also heard there were NOT markings. If there are markings I would love to know what the are or what they look like so we could pursue that.


Wolfgang Stihl,
Stihl says the rings were probably handmade, and he hopes to use symbols on the inside of the bands to identify the artist and perhaps identify places where the girl bought the jewelry.





I do not think any of those rings were hand made The Turquoise stones are still very popular. I had a Linde Star Sapphire ring just like John Doe's years ago. These rings are very popular around the truck stops.

Fairy1
04-09-2008, 01:55 AM
I do not think any of those rings were hand made The Turquoise stones are still very popular. I had a Linde Star Sapphire ring just like John Doe's years ago. These rings are very popular around the truck stops.

I am inclined to agree. The sapphire ring was fairly common and the turquoise rings may be as well. What's compelling here is the fact that they were found with their jewelry in tact and they did not seem to be without resources were obviously not victims of a robbery.

believe09
04-09-2008, 08:57 AM
I am inclined to agree. The sapphire ring was fairly common and the turquoise rings may be as well. What's compelling here is the fact that they were found with their jewelry in tact and they did not seem to be without resources were obviously not victims of a robbery.

But where is their luggage? Where were they staying before they ended up shot on the side of the road?

rmf
04-09-2008, 09:27 AM
i PM'd you two phone numbers I found in VA for someone with that name...:blowkiss:

Wolfgang was working with Verna Moore on this case for a while. According to her, he stopped returning her calls and sort of disappeared. I think it would be wise not to call someone randomly either, this person may have reasons for not wanting to be involved with the case any more and his privacy should be respected IMO.

phenolred
04-09-2008, 11:16 AM
Yeah I kinda thought so too so I have NOT attempted to contact him in any way. I had just read the old article and wondered if he were still working on this case too. So you have answered the question as far as wonder what happend with him, apparently he didnt want to respond to Verna anymore. But I found it interesting that he had indicated her rings had markings and everything else has always indicated they did NOT have markings.

phenolred
04-15-2008, 01:39 PM
the more I look at the new pics the more they look alike to me not only the nose but now the ears look similar to me. Is is just me or do her ears look kinda strange or kind of large. She also has beautiful eyebrows.

phenolred
05-06-2008, 02:43 PM
I just found this person listed as a missing person in July 1977 but I know how dates can sometimes be a little off what do you think?

Added | 17th Mar 2008
Simon Armley

http://www.missingpeople.org.uk/uploads/images/lost%20and%20found/A-C/simon_armley_web.jpg
Age at disappearance: 24
Simon has been missing from Eastbourne, East Sussex since 28 July 1977. His current whereabouts are unknown.
He is urged to make contact by calling the confidential service, Message Home on Freefone 0800 700 740, or by informing his local police station that he has been reported as a missing person and that he is safe and well.

http://www.missingpeople.org.uk/areyoumissing/missing/detail.asp?dsid=1310

Teresa Larson
05-07-2008, 01:21 AM
I'm sorry but I don't see any resemblance whats so ever. Not even close. IMO

MidnightQ
05-08-2008, 04:48 PM
Does anyone know if the result of the DNA came back? And if so - are they siblings or not?

phenolred
05-08-2008, 04:55 PM
I dont think there has been any word yet on the DNA

kylie
05-11-2008, 02:16 AM
I looked thru these pics found with the serial killer here are the ones I think Could look like Jane Doe
#31 # 65 #70 #71

Any thoughts?
http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Br...8-3100-444.pdf (http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Bradford-006-00038-3100-444.pdf)

Number 36 looks very much like John Doe...did anyone else notice this??

phenolred
05-12-2008, 08:09 AM
Number 36 looks very much like John Doe...did anyone else notice this??
I dont see it I think #36 looks older to me. But maybe someone else might see it Thanks!!!

Reannan
05-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Number 36 looks very much like John Doe...did anyone else notice this??

I guess I can sort of see BOTH victims in picture number 36. Maybe I need to take a break and get some sleep??? lol. Seriously, the guy in Picture No. 36 looks older, but he has on glasses and isn't clean shaven. Where exactly did the pictures that number 36 is included with come from?

Reannan
05-12-2008, 11:23 PM
OK.....on further analysis, Jock's hair looks much straighter than the guy in picture No. 36. This case is going to drive me insane. :banghead:

phenolred
05-13-2008, 07:38 AM
I guess I can sort of see BOTH victims in picture number 36. Maybe I need to take a break and get some sleep??? lol. Seriously, the guy in Picture No. 36 looks older, but he has on glasses and isn't clean shaven. Where exactly did the pictures that number 36 is included with come from?


They were in with pics from a serial killer who posed as a photographer, and they still have these pics of people he had and have been unable to identify. Some they have and they were found alive and well others werent so lucky to have him take their pics.

Reannan
05-13-2008, 07:59 PM
Thanks Phenol!!! I recall the serial killer with the pictures. Isn't it horrible that there are so many missing people and no one who knew them is bumping into us who are so desperately searching for them here on the internet?? Frustrating!

phenolred
05-20-2008, 09:59 AM
What about #31 AS Jane Doe? I looked at it alittle larger and it looks like she might have a mole/moles in the same area

What do you guys think?

http://www.news4jax.com/download/2006/0824/9730253.pdf

phenolred
05-23-2008, 10:55 AM
Hey guys.....I was reviewing the new pictures from the most recent article published in Canada regarding these 2 and I swear the more I look and the crime scence pics of them with their heads slightly turned they looks so different. You can see the way their noses looked. They really do look very ethnic in these profiles it looks like their noses are soooo much alike AND their teeth....I love how they have shown her with her mouth slightly open and they look like their teeth have the same shape....

I am starting to believe maybe they are brother and sister. But, you would think that would make them easier to identify but, then again, if their father was in with drug smuggling or the mob or something, maybe they arent looking for them they know what happended but never came forward for fear they too would be killed.

I have heard of this happening where they kill the ones closest to you as warning or because you crossed them.

I wish we knew more news. Has anyone heard if the article has brought forth any new leads? Are any of them promising?

And I wish they would get the DNA back at least thats something.

I saw on the news the other day about the FBI and their DNA labs and backlogs etc etc

They have indicated how technology has prgressed and they are now able to do some of the dna processing with a robot maching which can test many at a time rather than one by one by hand .

But there are still backlogs and there are new victims getting raped killed etc because their dna from a previous case has not been processed yet. If it had been there wouldnt have been a victim #2 or #3 and so on......

MaryLiz
05-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Hey guys.....I was reviewing the new pictures from the most recent article published in Canada regarding these 2 and I swear the more I look and the crime scence pics of them with their heads slightly turned they looks so different. You can see the way their noses looked. They really do look very ethnic in these profiles it looks like their noses are soooo much alike AND their teeth....I love how they have shown her with her mouth slightly open and they look like their teeth have the same shape....

I am starting to believe maybe they are brother and sister. But, you would think that would make them easier to identify but, then again, if their father was in with drug smuggling or the mob or something, maybe they arent looking for them they know what happended but never came forward for fear they too would be killed.

I have heard of this happening where they kill the ones closest to you as warning or because you crossed them.

I wish we knew more news. Has anyone heard if the article has brought forth any new leads? Are any of them promising?

And I wish they would get the DNA back at least thats something.

I saw on the news the other day about the FBI and their DNA labs and backlogs etc etc

They have indicated how technology has prgressed and they are now able to do some of the dna processing with a robot maching which can test many at a time rather than one by one by hand .

But there are still backlogs and there are new victims getting raped killed etc because their dna from a previous case has not been processed yet. If it had been there wouldnt have been a victim #2 or #3 and so on......

Hi Phenolred,

I agree with nearly everything you said. They do look very ethnic. If they are not French Canadian they could possibly be from South America, France, Spain, Mexico, Cuba...that's what is so difficult about this, not having a clue where they could be from in the whole wide world. They do look somewhat alike but I'm not convinced they are brother and sister yet. I could be wrong. But again you're right on both counts, if they were siblings there would definitely be someone looking for them since 2 members of the same family would be missing. Maybe they were cousins?? And if it was a mob hit, or they were involved in something pretty bad, it would make family and friends fearful to be searching. You know, possibly they were involved in some underworld dealings and their loved ones DO know what happened to them and they're too afraid to investigate it any further. I don't know though, you would think someone would let the investigators in Sumter County know who they were if that were the case.

As far as I know, there have been no leads from the article in the National Post of Canada, which is very disappointing. I think Verna has had some phone calls from the article, but no leads. And no word back on the DNA yet either.

I composed a letter briefly summarizing the case and also provided links to the article in the National Post and the Crime Library story, along with Verna's phone number and Sgt. Ray Mackessy's number of the Sumter County Sheriff. I sent it to America's Most Wanted to see if they would do a piece on it. I am also sending it to 48 Hours and possibly 60 Minutes later today. Although I haven't watched 60 Minutes in years, and I don't know if they do crime stories, I figured they have a pretty big audience so it couldn't hurt. I also thought about Greta Van Susteren, Nancy Grace and Dan Abrams on MSNBC. Oh, I also sent it to Dateline. It would just be wonderful if SOMEONE would reply and actually do a story on them.

annemc2
05-23-2008, 01:33 PM
Has anyone ever been able to establish whether either of them had an accent?
(like the guy from the campground)

IMO, that info would be HUGE. Esp if they might have been from a place where Spanish or French is the primary language.

And how were their English skills? Did they sound like native speakers?

phenolred
05-23-2008, 02:09 PM
I wish I knew....However I dont think they throughly investigated the tip that came from the campground guy. David Batson I think his name was per the article, and I think his wifes name was Janie. However David Batson is now deceased. I would LOVE to find someone from their family or the man who owned the murder weapon, Lonnie George Henry, ans ask them if they ever spoke about this and what did they say.

You Know how family stories get told and re-told and someone in the family might know what they said about these two .

Family Folklore I like to think of it as LOL.....

But its seems feasable to me thay someone in their families might know something that they were told about this back in 1976 and never knew it was something relavent. They might hold that small piece of information that might solve this and they dont even know it....

What do you think?

phenolred
05-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Its ME AGAIN!!!

I was thinking about a new bit of information from the article that I had never heard before.

That was the information regarding the lead from the KOA guy he stated not only that the guy said his name was Jock and he was from Canada AND his dad was a doctor and he had basically disowend him BUT it went on to say he indicated he was a TEACHER.

The has never been mentioned before and I think it is a good lead. He had to have taught somebody somewhere....

That is he the story he gave were true. Also, I think that even though the KOA registration records and photos burnt in their house fire, wouldnt the man KNEW at least what kind of car they drove. And what they camped in a tent or a camper or a VAN?

So MANY unanswered questions and alot of the people involved in the beginning are deceased....

MaryLiz
05-23-2008, 09:06 PM
That was the information regarding the lead from the KOA guy he stated not only that the guy said his name was Jock and he was from Canada AND his dad was a doctor and he had basically disowend him BUT it went on to say he indicated he was a TEACHER.


I zeroed in on that too, I had never heard that before the article either. I have since been searching on some online Canadian class reunion sites and trying to find old online yearbooks focusing on Quebec. I haven't had any luck. It's almost impossible to search because of not knowing FOR SURE where he is from. But I'm going to keep trying to search to see if I can't find some old yearbook with a picture of him as a faculty member.

bluestarzz
05-23-2008, 09:37 PM
good idea mary beth, good luck
bluestarzz

phenolred
06-04-2008, 09:22 AM
I was thinking since it has been said maybe they were in the witness protection program. But Maybe they WERE witnesses, but not in any program. I see it happens alot were witnesses take off for fear of retribution. I was looking at Missing witnesses, or missing witness, during that time frame and there is ALOT to look thru.

thranduil29
06-04-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm not able to get the link provided in post #68 to work (the recent story in The National Post); it says the story is no longer available. Does anyone have a copy of it saved or know of any alternate, mirror site?

Shawn

phenolred
06-04-2008, 04:57 PM
Here is a copy of the post article


The couple nobody claimed
Adrian Humphreys, National Post Published: Friday, April 04, 2008
It was after midnight on Aug. 9, 1976, when a young man and woman - she "slender, attractive" and he "well-developed, well-nourished" - stepped from the back of a van on a secluded, dirt road in South Carolina.
There, beneath the longleaf pine trees, they were both shot twice in the back. Someone then made sure the deed was thorough: rolling the two onto their backs and firing a point-blank shot with a .357-calibre handgun under each chin.
When the sun rose over Sumter County, in the heart of the southern state, a truck driver spotted the bodies lying in the grass some 400 metres from a busy interstate highway, their limbs cocked at awkward angles, mouths frozen in an apparent gasp.
By 6:20 a.m., officers with the Sumter County Sheriff's Office were probing what would become their most vexing mystery.
They found no wallet or purse and, as such, no identification.
The couple lay side by side in the morgue while officials waited for grieving parents, expected to burst through the door at any moment once news sped through the county of 70,000.
After days without anyone coming forward, the bodies were moved to a funeral home and placed in airtight coffins with windows in the lids to allow visual identification. A few tearful people came looking for missing loved ones but no one recognized the bodies. In time, they were moved to a storage building.
A year later, the Sheriff pushed his parish to make room in its cemetery; the couple, estimated to be between 18 and 26 years old, was buried beneath decorative tombstones - "Male-Unknown" and "Female-Unknown" their only designation.
After three decades, their identities remain a mystery.
From the old case file, however, emerges what may be the most promising clue: Authorities now believe they came from Canada after the man feuded with his father, who was a doctor, because he would not pursue a career in medicine.
----
Verna Moore remembers the day the two bodies were found. As an assistant to the coroner at the time, she combed their matted hair before a photographer took their pictures.
"The thing that impressed me about her was her beautiful, long eyelashes. You don't often see them like that," Ms. Moore said.
"They were clean. They had no drugs or alcohol in them. They had nice jewellery on. They had stayed someplace the night before and taken showers. That impressed everybody. You couldn't say they were hitchhiking or living on the streets."
She has never forgotten the case. Now at age 81 and having since been elected chief coroner, Ms. Moore wants to reunite the couple with their relatives before she retires.
At the Sumter County Sheriff's Office she has found a ready partner.
"The case went cold, so far as their identity is concerned," said Sergeant Ray Mackessy, who is in charge of police evidence storage. "It had just been in a box on the shelf, and it laid there for years and years."
Much work had been done and some mistakes made.
Perhaps the best chance for solving the mystery came four months after the murder when a South Carolina man was arrested for drinking and driving. Under his car seat police found a .357-calibre handgun. Tests linked it to the slayings. The man with the gun, Lonnie George Henry, was asked about the murders while hooked up to a lie detector and the experts declared he was telling the truth when he said he did not kill them; he was, however, lying about where he got the gun.
Police were sure he knew more than he was saying.
"No charges were ever laid in it, and he has since gone on to his just reward," said Sgt. Mackessy.
Mr. Henry died in 1982, without revealing his secrets.
"We're obviously not going to get a prosecution in this," Ms. Moore said. "I just want to find out who they are."
Ms. Moore and Sgt. Mackessy have retraced the case as best they can but leads are dwindling. Their hopes now rest on Canada.
----
There have been many guesses over the decades as to what brought the young couple to Sumter County. Some have suggested they were in the Witness Protection Program. Others suspected they were couriering drugs up from Florida. Victims of a deadly carjacking was a popular theory. Others whispered that their parents might have had them bumped off.
"There are all kinds of guesses all really based on nothing," said Sgt. Mackessy. "It's like they came here from another planet."
Or, as investigators now believe, Canada.
"Even after all these years I realized there were things that had not come out and not followed up on. It never came out that he said he was from Canada," Ms. Moore said.
The Canadian connection comes from a four-page report found in the evidence box, written a year after the murders by Lieutenant James E. Gamble of the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division.
Lt. Gamble received a phone call from a man named David Batson who said he recognized the dead man. Mr. Batson's wife, Janie, worked at a nearby KOA Campground, the report says. While at the campground, Mr. Batson met a young man and woman who said they were passing through on their way to Florida. A few days later, they returned to the campground, telling Mr. Batson that they liked it there more than in Florida. They stayed at the KOA for a couple of weeks and Mr. Batson shot pool with the man several times. He later believed his pool partner was the mystery victim.
"The man was called Jock," says Lt. Gamble's report.
"He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."
One evening as they played pool, "Jock" tried to sell Mr. Batson a ring he was wearing. The ring looked "very similar" to one police found on the dead man's finger, Mr. Batson said.
continued
__________________
The possible name is intriguing because on the underside of the dead man's ring are three engraved letters: JPF. If the letters are the three initials of his name, then perhaps the J stands for Jock; or, as a private investigator working on the case, suggests: If the man was from Canada, perhaps it is "Jacques" rather than "Jock."
Mr. Batson's tantalizing tip, however, seemed to get lost.
"There is nothing in the file to indicate they followed up on that information about Canada," Sgt. Mackessy said.
Both Lt. Gamble and Mr. Batson have since died and the KOA has closed. Ms. Moore, however, tracked down the former KOA owners. They told her they kept detailed records on campers - including names, addresses and even photographs. Those records, however, had been destroyed when their home burned.
"I can't tell you how disappointing that was," she said.
The elaborate dental work on the young male victim also seemed a promising lead, but when Sgt. Mackessy looked for the teeth they were missing. A note in the file said they had been sent to a dentist for analysis. When they tracked down the dentist, he said he had given the teeth to the local school for training purposes. School officials said they had recently been disposed of.
Ms. Moore next convinced the television show Unsolved Mysteries to feature the case. That prompted 200 calls, which were pursued without success.
In recent years, a small army of volunteers has sprung up to help Ms. Moore. One local woman hopes to write a book about the case; another writes poetry inspired by it. Psychics have offered their musings and several amateur online sleuths have created Web sites to publicize the case.
Ms. Hutchison, the private investigator, scoured lists of Canadian doctors practising in 1976, looking for a possible father to the dead man. She found a Montreal physician who bore a striking resemblance.
Ms. Moore phoned him and asked if he had a missing son. He said he did not.
----
Medical science might still play a part in putting names to the victims. Last summer, the two coffins were dug up.
When Dr. Keene Garvin, a forensic pathologist, learned whom he was going to be exhuming he was surprised. Back in 1976 he helped perform their autopsies.
"They were fresh and in good condition - they could have had an open casket funeral. They were a young, handsome couple; they had money. I remember saying somebody would identify this couple immediately," he said.
"I was shocked to find they were never identified."
Both were white, with olive tones to their skin and were between 18 and 26 years old.
She was 5-foot-6, weighed about 105 pounds and had brown hair, blue-grey eyes, long eyelashes and two small moles to the left of her mouth. She wore a white blouse over a peach halter top and blue Levi's jeans cut off into shorts with a floral scarf as a belt. She wore purple and pink wedge shoes and three silver rings with embedded gems.
He was just over 6 feet and weighed about 150 pounds. He had brown hair, brown eyes and bushy eyebrows. He was undergoing extensive dental reconstruction and had two scars on his left shoulder. He wore a red Coors T-shirt, blue jeans and brown sandals. He had a Bulova Accutron gold watch and a gold ring with a gem and the engraved letters JPF.
Their autopsy notes describe the couple simply: "slender, attractive" and "well-developed, well-nourished."
Three decades after he first saw them, Dr. Garvin once again returned to the couple's remains. He took bone samples he hopes will yield DNA.
Without something to compare the DNA with, however, it will be of little help. That means hope in Sumter County again turns to Canada.
"If someone in Canada came forward and said, 'I think that is my brother or sister,' or whatever, then we could obtain an oral sample from them to compare. It's our best bet," Sgt. Mackessy said.
Added Ms. Moore: "I cannot understand how two young people disappeared from somewhere and that their parents would not be looking for them. It is unreal that after all this time - it will be 32 years this summer - that nobody seems to be looking for them."
Or maybe they have just been looking in all the wrong places.
Do you recognize these people? Anyone with information about the victims can phone Verna Moore, coroner, at 803-436-2111.

thranduil29
06-04-2008, 09:28 PM
Thanks!

The idea that they might have been in the Witness Protection Program is interesting. However, one would assume that the government would have claimed the bodies?

That is was a professional "hit" seems beyond question from my reading of the case facts. Amateur violence is usually more messy. Also, the fact that there was no attempt to hide the bodies suggests to me that their deaths were meant to be a message to someone or to some group in the community.

It's a sad case.

S.

ShannieMonkey
06-07-2008, 10:53 PM
I know this is REALLY far off...

But he WAS a teacher... Might not hurt to contact his sister, maybe Brian had some scars that she didnt mention on the website... I dont know!

http://www.brianguberman.com/wst_page5.html

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3663dmab.html

Case File 3663DMAB


Brian Guberman
Missing since June, 1974 from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Classification: Missing



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vital Statistics

Date Of Birth: March 21, 1947
Age at Time of Disappearance: 27 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'10"; 185 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White male. Dark brown hair; brown eyes.
Marks, Scars: Small bluish birth marks on fleshy part of thumb, palm side.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Circumstances of Disappearance
Brian was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and grew up with his parents, two sisters and grandmother on Enniskillen Avenue in Winnipeg's north end.
He graduated from Garden City Collegiate and the Universities of Winnipeg and Manitoba with a Bachelor's of Arts Degree and a Teacher's Certificate.
After graduation, Brian traveled extensively in Europe, returning to Winnipeg to teach at Hugh John McDonald Jr. High School. Brian had an active career as an actor and as a singer/guitarist. He appeared in several productions at the Rainbow Stage Theatre in the early 1970's.
In 1973 Brian moved to Edmonton, Alberta, where he worked in social services for the Big Sister's Organizaion.
In 1974 he renewed his passport and in June 1974, he wrote his last letter home to his family in Winnipeg saying that he was planning to do some traveling and maybe he would see them soon. Brian was never heard from again.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:

Edmonton RCMP
780-421-3333

Agency Case Number: 60-246-74 and 78-2015

SeriouslySearching
06-07-2008, 11:10 PM
Strange, I know a Batson family. I wonder how unusual that name is? I will check into it and see if they recall a David Batson in that area. Maybe he told the family more about the encounter than was reported. Worth a shot anyway.

Thanks for posting the article as the one a couple of pages back was already taken off the site. :)

rmf
06-08-2008, 03:20 PM
FYI: Brian Guberman was ruled out as the John Doe.

ShannieMonkey
06-08-2008, 03:37 PM
FYI: Brian Guberman was ruled out as the John Doe.

Thanks. Srry.

phenolred
06-09-2008, 09:54 AM
I wonder if these 2 have been eliminated.


Terry and her husband, Ron Yakimchuk (http://www.nampn.org/cases/yakimchuk_ron.html) left Edmonton, Alberta on June 9, 1973 to head east to Montreal, in a battered Volkswagen Beetle. They were going to attend a wedding on June 16, 1973, then head to the Maritimes, where Ron hoped to land a teaching position and Terry, an Edmonton Journal reporter, intended to seek work as a journalist. En route, they stopped to visit friends near Brandon.

The next day, they stopped in Dryden, Ontario, and mailed a one-word postcard to Edmonton. They did not come to the wedding and have never been seen or heard of since.
They traveled in a 1959 Volkswagen Beetle, red with a green hood, green fender and Alberta licence CA3-262. The car was filled with a white, three-metre kayak and boxes of clothes, books and household goods.
Their bank accounts have never been touched and their Volkswagen has never shown up anywhere. Ron's life insurance has never been collected. The couple has never been declared dead.
There was talk the couple was planning to go to Europe, but police say only Terry had a passport. They may have decided against staying on the narrow, hilly Trans-Canada Highway and headed south, crossing the U.S. border at International Falls and on to Duluth, MN. It's unclear whether police ever checked on that possibility, or if there are records of their entry into the U.S. Terry is described as an early feminist, a rabble-rouser and a free spirit who drank scotch whisky, rolled her own cigarettes and dragged pals off on adventures. Friends say she often acted on impulse. Terry graduated from high school at 16, took a year of engineering, then switched to arts. But she quit school in 1969 and joined The Journal as a proofreader, eventually working her way onto the reporting staff.
http://www.nampn.org/cases/yakimchuk_ron.html

http://www.nampn.org/cases/pettit_terry.html

redsox39
06-09-2008, 02:11 PM
I guess the facts and ages seem right...but they look...I don't know, better dead? I am saying the bodies look like extremely attractive people, while the photos here do not. Gosh, that sounds terrible...

But I have to admit, I like the facts around the case...

phenolred
06-10-2008, 11:59 AM
I did this side by side of the,, You can really see how much alike they look on the profile pic. Their Noses look Just alike to me, You can really get a better feel for how they looked with these additional picsd and different views. Their lips and teeth look the same to me, Wouldnt it be weird if they were fraternal twins. ;But at the least I feel they are related, brother & sister or maybe cousins.


I wanted to do a some overlay pics to see how their features line up. However, Im on a tight schedule today and cant do it right now. Can someone else???

http://C:\Documents and Settings\Wheatonuser\My Documents\My Pictures\New Folder\sidensidedoes.jpg

MidnightQ
06-10-2008, 12:34 PM
I did this side by side of the,, You can really see how much alike they look on the profile pic. Their Noses look Just alike to me, You can really get a better feel for how they looked with these additional picsd and different views. Their lips and teeth look the same to me, Wouldnt it be weird if they were fraternal twins. ;But at the least I feel they are related, brother & sister or maybe cousins.


I wanted to do a some overlay pics to see how their features line up. However, Im on a tight schedule today and cant do it right now. Can someone else???

http://C:\Documents and Settings\Wheatonuser\My Documents\My Pictures\New Folder\sidensidedoes.jpg

I can't open the link.

rmf
06-10-2008, 03:46 PM
The Yakimchuks were ruled out a while back.

phenolred
06-10-2008, 04:57 PM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/Bisquit71734/sidensidedoes.jpg

Teresa Larson
06-10-2008, 06:46 PM
Has the DNA tests ever come back yet? I still think they look like brother and sister. I will be surprised if they are not related.

SeriouslySearching
06-10-2008, 08:41 PM
They do have a resemblance. Where did the other pics come from?

kaas
06-11-2008, 11:56 PM
I am amazed still that this couple has never been identified. There has been some conjecture that perhaps Jock/Jacques is of French Canadian background and was perhaps a teacher. It may be that they are from Acadia, as in the martimes such as New Brunswick or PEI rather than the province of Quebec. I have tried to do a bit of search for missing persons in these areas but not having much success in bringing up any kind of data base. Shall keep trying.

rmf
06-12-2008, 12:24 AM
kaas,

Thanks for your thoughts on this, it is very interesting! There is going to be more media coverage of this case in Canada. It is being written about again in a major publication's August issue, so perhaps that will reach a larger audience as well.

MaryLiz
06-12-2008, 07:22 AM
They do have a resemblance. Where did the other pics come from?

The National Post of Canada did an article in April and those photos were in that piece. Unfortunately, the article itself can't be accessed anymore, although the link is on the third page of this thread, post #68. You can still read the article though, phenolred copied it just above in post #108.

bowler
06-13-2008, 03:31 PM
Harvin Bullock won the Democratic primary Tuesday, unseating Verna Moore to become Sumter County coroner. Bullock, a Sumter County businessman, won the election by an unofficial tally of 3,217 votes, or 52.16 percent, to 2,950 votes, or 47.84 percent. The vote will be confirmed on Thursday.


http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080611/ITNEWS01/263906831/0/LIFE

phenolred
06-13-2008, 03:38 PM
Harvin Bullock won the Democratic primary Tuesday, unseating Verna Moore to become Sumter County coroner. Bullock, a Sumter County businessman, won the election by an unofficial tally of 3,217 votes, or 52.16 percent, to 2,950 votes, or 47.84 percent. The vote will be confirmed on Thursday.


http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080611/ITNEWS01/263906831/0/LIFE

Ah thats sad thanks for sharing this. Im sure we all wish her the best, she sure was dedicated to these two unidentifieds.

Teresa Larson
06-14-2008, 02:39 AM
That is sad hopefully the new person will give this case some attention also. I can't believe the DNA tests are still not back. What ever happened with that?? I hate to say it but I really think the guy that had the gun knew something or was involved with their deaths. I wonder if any of his family members are still around the area. Maybe they know something?

laini
06-25-2008, 02:00 PM
I just saw this on doenetwork. There isn't much info on this missing person. I think his nose is identical to the photo of john doe with his eyes closed. What do you all think?

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3818dmca.html

phenolred
06-25-2008, 03:30 PM
here is a link for more info on him Richard Boldon it has a little larger/clearer version of the picture

http://dojapp.doj.ca.gov/missing/detail.asp?FCN=2329315831659


I see the nose resembelance and the lips look kind of alike to me too, and it says he is voluntarily missing

I cant hardly find anything on him

phenolred
06-25-2008, 03:31 PM
I just saw this on doenetwork. There isn't much info on this missing person. I think his nose is identical to the photo of john doe with his eyes closed. What do you all think?

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3818dmca.html

I see it too good job

bluestarzz
06-25-2008, 07:25 PM
looks like a possibility to me.
bluestarzz

MaryLiz
06-25-2008, 08:23 PM
I just saw this on doenetwork. There isn't much info on this missing person. I think his nose is identical to the photo of john doe with his eyes closed. What do you all think?

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3818dmca.html

I see a resemblance too..the only thing I question is the age. The Sumter JD was thought to have been in his mid to late 20s..I think he looks like about that age too in the crime scene photos. Richard Boldon would have been 44 years old in 1976. Otherwise, I do see a resemblance.

laini
06-25-2008, 08:59 PM
Thanks for the feedback, everyone :)

Yeah, the john doe does look quite a bit younger. Hmm.

matknee
06-30-2008, 11:19 AM
has anyone looked at james norris II his story sounds the same he looks alot like john doe and he was going to florida to purchase drugs

matknee
06-30-2008, 11:31 AM
on the same note has anyone looked at alice vanalstine missing since april 2 1976 from Iowa theres very little information on the circumstances of her disappearance

phenolred
06-30-2008, 11:43 AM
has anyone looked at james norris II his story sounds the same he looks alot like john doe and he was going to florida to purchase drugs
He has been ruled out already

phenolred
06-30-2008, 11:46 AM
on the same note has anyone looked at alice vanalstine missing since april 2 1976 from Iowa theres very little information on the circumstances of her disappearance

Hmmmm IDK I dont see a resemblence with Jane Doe Myself Pic at link below


http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/v/vanalstine_alice.html

phenolred
07-02-2008, 04:11 PM
It appears South Carolina Jock & Jane Doe were profiled on a Canadian TV Show on June 13 2008 I just watched the show and I am just thrilled. I truely hope someone from Canada recoginzes them and this can be solved wouldn't that just be great.

This show seems to be a kind of Americans Most Wanted for the Toronto and surrounding Ontario area.

It is callled GTA's Most Wanted, and it seems the Police there now how these two listed on THEIR cases of missing and unidentifieds isnt that GREAT!!!!!

Here is a link to the show it is the beginning thru about 9 min 30 seconds

http://www.rogerstv.com/get.asp?lid=121&rid=51&sid=2520&mid=8&arid=51&sor=2&oth=1&gid=28086

Here is a link to the Ontario Police site listing these tooooo WOOOO HOOO

http://www.opp.ca/Investigative/UnidentifiedRemains/uclist/index.htm

MaryLiz
07-02-2008, 06:43 PM
Wow, that's great...thanks for the link. Finally, they are getting some more exposure!

phenolred
07-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Here is a link to the Photo Gallery from the Post article the article is no longer available there but I see the photo gallery is


http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/photos/gallery/index.html?id=407163

grievousangel
07-03-2008, 06:17 PM
This is the first time I have seen a close up of the man's and woman's crime scene photos. One thing that stands out to me is how different those photos look when compared to the retouched ''closed eyes'' photographs that are more commonly displayed for this case. I am beginning to think that untouched autopsy facial photographs should accompany the retouched photographs when possible. Of course there are situations where this just cannot be done and even when possible, respect for the deceased and any family member who may see the photos should be the highest priority.

MsRyber
07-03-2008, 08:54 PM
Jacques looks like un Quebecois to me.
Any other Canadians agree?
He just reminds me a lot of some of the guys I went to university with from Anjou and Longueuil...
Just has a really French look to him.

He actually reminds me of Felix Potvin, that goalie that used to play in the NHL.

rhyno1974
07-03-2008, 09:23 PM
Jacques looks like un Quebecois to me.
Any other Canadians agree?
He just reminds me a lot of some of the guys I went to university with from Anjou and Longueuil...
Just has a really French look to him.

He actually reminds me of Felix Potvin, that goalie that used to play in the NHL.

I am Canadian as well and I really don't think people from Quebec look any different than the rest of us.

Teresa Larson
07-04-2008, 01:19 AM
I am Canadian as well and I really don't think people from Quebec look any different than the rest of us.

I agree Canadian people look no different than the people from the United States. The one thing I did notice in the pictures is how deformed/big the female JD's ears were. I wonder why? They had to be that way from birth. I am sure if a doctor looked at this picture he would know what was wrong with her. I still wonder if they were brother and sister.

MsRyber
07-04-2008, 10:29 AM
I am Canadian as well and I really don't think people from Quebec look any different than the rest of us.


LOL! What I meant was when you look at some people, you think "Wow, she/he looks like they may have Irish/Scottish ancestry, etc."

Jacques looks French to me. As someone with a long lineage to New Brunswick and Acadian French persons, he just really looks French.

Teresa Larson
07-04-2008, 08:03 PM
LOL! What I meant was when you look at some people, you think "Wow, she/he looks like they may have Irish/Scottish ancestry, etc."

Jacques looks French to me. As someone with a long lineage to New Brunswick and Acadian French persons, he just really looks French.


Half of the people in New Jersey and New York look like that too LOL

phenolred
07-07-2008, 07:42 AM
the more I look at the new pics the more they look alike to me not only the nose but now the ears look similar to me. Is is just me or do her ears look kinda strange or kind of large. She also has beautiful eyebrows.


HeY Teresa I found this post that I posted back in April about her ears. I thought that back when I first saw the new pics...

Her EARS look strange to me too...

here is a pic

phenolred
07-07-2008, 07:42 AM
Jacques looks like un Quebecois to me.
Any other Canadians agree?
He just reminds me a lot of some of the guys I went to university with from Anjou and Longueuil...
Just has a really French look to him.

He actually reminds me of Felix Potvin, that goalie that used to play in the NHL.

Thanks for your input

phenolred
07-07-2008, 07:47 AM
This is the first time I have seen a close up of the man's and woman's crime scene photos. One thing that stands out to me is how different those photos look when compared to the retouched ''closed eyes'' photographs that are more commonly displayed for this case. I am beginning to think that untouched autopsy facial photographs should accompany the retouched photographs when possible. Of course there are situations where this just cannot be done and even when possible, respect for the deceased and any family member who may see the photos should be the highest priority.

I agree

here is a format they had with the story and then I put hers & his together

Notice how much they look alike in the profile, they both seem to have a downward hook to their nose in profile. With her hair being long it would have been easy to hide her ears, and I dont know if its a defect of if its just the camera,

phenolred
07-07-2008, 10:09 AM
I just found this story and it really reminds me of this one and gives me Hope that this case will be solved as well.

This is from an article in Canada regarding an unidentified male found in 1972 and just identified.....

Here is some from the article

The decades-old disappearance of a former University of Western Ontario student has finally been solved, thanks in large part to the school's meticulous record keeping.

In a remarkable twist that proves any cold case can be solved, UWO has helped put a name to an unidentified body found in Vancouver 36 years ago, giving the man's family some long-awaited answers.
"The family's been able to (get) closure," said Michael Mics, one of the UWO campus police officers who worked on the case.
"It was nice to . . . know our record keeping is as sophisticated as we

The OPP helped locate his parents, who live in rural Ontario and had no idea what became of their son.

here is the story

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/06/26/5991306-sun.html

Well I wonder with their excellent record keeping if they could find anyone with the initilas JPF???? That would have attened in the 70's

rmf
07-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Jacques looks French to me. As someone with a long lineage to New Brunswick and Acadian French persons, he just really looks French.

I agree. It's hard to describe to others unless you are familiar with the way French Canadians look. I am familiar just because that's part of my ancestory.

About the DNA: per Mrs Moore, the lab will begin work (finally) on the DNA soon. I personally don't hold a lot of hope for the DNA answering questions aside from whether they are related. Hopefully someone will come forward and there will be a potential relative that the profiles can be compared to. There will be more press about the case in Canada in the coming weeks so this may help as well.

MaryLiz
07-07-2008, 04:14 PM
I think he looks French, too. I always have. But I also think she looks European as well or possibly even South American. They both look exotic to me so I will be very surprised if they are from the USA. Anything is possible though. I'm still not sure where I stand on whether I think they are related...as I said earlier, they could be cousins maybe. I never really believed they were siblings. But in the crime scene photos I agree in profile their noses look very similar, with them both having that exact same "hooked" appearance. Hopefully, we will at least find out if they are related through the DNA results soon.

phenolred
07-07-2008, 04:18 PM
I think he looks French, too. I always have. But I also think she looks European as well or possibly even South American. They both look exotic to me so I will be very surprised if they are from the USA. Anything is possible though. I'm still not sure where I stand on whether I think they are related...as I said earlier, they could be cousins maybe. I never really believed they were siblings. But in the crime scene photos I agree in profile their noses look very similar, with them both having that exact same "hooked" appearance. Hopefully, we will at least find out if they are related through the DNA results soon.

Same here I Never saw the similarities between them I never would have thought brother/sister until I saw the profile. What do you make of her EARS?

MaryLiz
07-07-2008, 05:54 PM
Same here I Never saw the similarities between them I never would have thought brother/sister until I saw the profile. What do you make of her EARS?

They do look very large in the one morgue photo. It only shows the one that you put in post #147 but it almost looks sort of deformed. In the crime scene photos where their noses look similar, I think his ear looks almost the same as hers. Again, there is just one showing but they kind of look alike if you look at her ear and then his, although hers is a little harder to see in that photo. Unfortunately, his hair is down over his ears in the other photos and you can't really tell. The other odd thing is I think her face shape looks kind of different in the morgue photos where her eyes are opened and then closed. It almost looks like her face is much wider in the photo where her eyes are closed. I know it's probably the expression on her face but it still looks weird. But I agree her ears are kind of strange.

rmf
07-07-2008, 07:23 PM
I think it is important to remember to take post-mortem photos with a grain of salt. Without getting into gory details, the brain is often examined as part of the autopsy so when the skull and scalp are "repositioned" it can look very strange and not necessarily the same as the person looked in life. A good example of this is the autopsy photo of Marilyn Monroe that found it's way onto the internet. If you didn't know it was MM, you wouldn't know they were even the same person.

MaryLiz
07-07-2008, 07:45 PM
I think it is important to remember to take post-mortem photos with a grain of salt. Without getting into gory details, the brain is often examined as part of the autopsy so when the skull and scalp are "repositioned" it can look very strange and not necessarily the same as the person looked in life. A good example of this is the autopsy photo of Marilyn Monroe that found it's way onto the internet. If you didn't know it was MM, you wouldn't know they were even the same person.

Yeah, you're right. It makes sense, and I thought about that when I was comparing them. But it just seems so strange they can look so different, even when comparing to the crime scene photos.

phenolred
07-08-2008, 03:10 PM
I was thinking the reason she looks wider in the face in the one pic is because she is laying flat on her back with her chin downward which would make you look wider/thicker. I think this is the best pic of what she looked like andI put some hair styles on her and makeup in one of them...

Ps I had thought about her ear maybe being damaged by the bullet that went under her chin.

anyway here is my shot at the pics

MaryLiz
07-08-2008, 05:52 PM
Good job with the hair and makeup...she looks like Jodie Foster in the third picture on the top! Must be the long straight blonde hair.

I agree the ear could look like that as a result of the bullet. It certainly looks deformed.

phenolred
07-08-2008, 09:01 PM
Thank you MaryBeth

You know I was looking at the crime scene pics again, and something is strange about the bullet wound on His neck. the blood is running upwards across his neck. Blood doesnt flow when your dead but it is odd blood wouldnt go up and over.

christine2448
07-09-2008, 01:08 AM
Awesome work, time spent. TY. fwiw. :blowkiss::blowkiss:

Truly
07-09-2008, 01:26 AM
No kidding.:clap::clap::clap:

phenolred, I have been trying to follow this thread, and I did try to pursue some of your leads about the guy who was involved in sportscar racing, who is wanted for killing his wife on their boat. I tried to do a little bit of tracing about the boat. He seems like a very possible suspect in the murders of these two young people. He also seems like a very ruthless murderer on the loose. Very scary person. I was wondering what your thoughts were about this guy, after all of the research you have done?

MaryLiz
07-10-2008, 08:42 PM
Thank you MaryBeth

You know I was looking at the crime scene pics again, and something is strange about the bullet wound on His neck. the blood is running upwards across his neck. Blood doesnt flow when your dead but it is odd blood wouldnt go up and over.

I studied them again but I just can't figure it out...hers looks like it is going across her neck too though much lighter than his. But I'm stumped about those wounds under their chins....clueless like I am over just about EVERYTHING involving this case...:confused:

Fairy1
07-10-2008, 11:43 PM
I was thinking the reason she looks wider in the face in the one pic is because she is laying flat on her back with her chin downward which would make you look wider/thicker. I think this is the best pic of what she looked like andI put some hair styles on her and makeup in one of them...

Ps I had thought about her ear maybe being damaged by the bullet that went under her chin.

anyway here is my shot at the pics

Awesome PR - thank you! I think long, straight hair would have been about right for the time period. I am totally clueless about the effects of gunshot wounds - so I really can't venture a guess with regard to that. However, I do believe that her eyes and teeth are well represented in the post-mortem photos. As far as ethnicity goes, the USA is a melting pot, so I'm not sure we should focus specifically on that. However, there are definitely physical characteristics we should look at if we hope to identify these kids.

Fairy1
07-10-2008, 11:47 PM
Does anyone have the PM photos saved? I can't access that article anymore.... :(

Kiki
07-11-2008, 07:52 AM
I apologise is this has already been asked but has there been any coverage given to this case in US and Canadian (including French Canadian) medical journals? If John Doe's father was a doctor he may not have been among those contacted or another doctor may recognise a fellow doctor's son. If John Doe had no family in the medical profession perhaps a doctor could recognise a former patient who may have come for travel shots?

shadetreePI
07-11-2008, 07:53 AM
This might help...
Spoke to Verna twice yesterday (lucky me!!). One of the questions I asked her was if the investigators had determined the Does were killed where they were found. She said the investigators think they were shot in the vehicle, then dumped on the side of the road, then shot again where they lay. They were found face-up (that was another question of mine). Hope this helps!

phenolred
07-11-2008, 10:18 AM
I wanted to post a couple more of my attempts at Jane Doe pics I actually like these better

MaryLiz
07-11-2008, 10:31 AM
Those are very good, too, Phenolred. It really gives you a better idea what she looked like in life.

christine2448
07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Her hair looks black/dark and curly to me in pics....are my eyes deceiving me?

phenolred
07-11-2008, 11:17 AM
here is one with darker wavier hair for ya

IDK christine it just states she had brown hair

phenolred
07-11-2008, 11:18 AM
Those are very good, too, Phenolred. It really gives you a better idea what she looked like in life.

Thank you

I really like this one I think they bring her to like so to speak

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=598&d=1215785864

phenolred
07-11-2008, 11:36 AM
I found some interesting info from a local around where they were found murdered regarding the place possibly being haunted :eek:

Where the couple was found murdered is a really creepy site and there is a real sense of dread there.Some locals have said that they have seen a couple standing
near this site late at night when they drive by the site but most locals old enough to remember the murders do not want to talk about it.Maybe it is because the murderer never has been found and it could have been a person nearby who killed the couple

phenolred
07-11-2008, 11:38 AM
I apologise is this has already been asked but has there been any coverage given to this case in US and Canadian (including French Canadian) medical journals? If John Doe's father was a doctor he may not have been among those contacted or another doctor may recognise a fellow doctor's son. If John Doe had no family in the medical profession perhaps a doctor could recognise a former patient who may have come for travel shots?
Good Thought however I dont know maybe someone else could find out or suggest that I think They posted their info in Dental Journals

phenolred
07-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Here is my attempt at JOHN DOE

monkalup
07-11-2008, 03:53 PM
Does anyone have the PM photos saved? I can't access that article anymore.... :(


We have them here http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightUSA/index.php?showtopic=489

or here

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=6616&st=0&

phenolred
07-11-2008, 04:16 PM
We have them here http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightUSA/index.php?showtopic=489

or here

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=6616&st=0&


here are MORE from the National Post story its the photo Gallary from the story

http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/photos/gallery/index.html?id=407163

phenolred
07-11-2008, 04:20 PM
Here is one of the crime scene pics that I was talking about where it looks like the blood is going up and over the opposite way from the way his head is turned

its interesting how the investagators think they were possibly shot in their car or and then it looks like drug out layed by the side of the road and shot again for good measure under the chin....

rmf
08-09-2008, 04:33 PM
http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080809/ITNEWS01/997748564

Article published: Aug 9, 2008
Crime still unsolved
Identities, closure elusive 32 years after couple’s slaying

Thirty two years ago today, the bodies of a young couple were found lying on the shoulder of Locklair Road, a dirt road between Interstate 95 and S.C. 341, near the Florence County line.

The man and woman, thought to be in their late teens to early 20s, had been shot to death with a .357 Magnum, two bullets to the body and an insurance round under the chin for each.

Young. Attractive. Unknown.

Despite desperate efforts from local law enforcement and Coroner Verna Moore, who worked the scene as deputy coroner, authorities are no closer to solving the mystery than they were on Aug. 9, 1976.

phenolred
08-11-2008, 09:55 AM
awesome story....I just makes me so mad that the tip wasnt followed up on back when they still had records of the people that stayed at the campground. Its like the LE didnt care if they were identified or not....why wouldnt they have JUMPED on that TIP...sounds like it was the ONLY legitimate tip that ever really came in. I wonder if Mr Batsons wife has anymore details she could share.

its like Karma that everytime something came up to get these two identified something would happen to prevent it strange....

phenolred
08-11-2008, 10:27 AM
I found this it list info from Canada people studying teaching this one is from 1973-1974 they also have other dates.....
directory of Education studies

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED100034&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED100034

This sixth edition of the "Directory of Education Studies in Canada" lists education studies completed from July 1973 through June 1974. These studies were done by graduate students and staff in university faculties of education, provincial departments of education, school boards, education associations, and other departments. The 1,415 entries are indexed by author and subject and reported in the original language, English or French. Where possible, details concerning the publication of studies are given. Most unpublished studies are available from the source or on interlibrary loan; none is available from the Canadian Education Association office. (Author/DW)

phenolred
08-11-2008, 11:27 AM
I found this source of information it is a book of Canadas Whos who ...

It list prominent Doctors lawyers etc etc I havent had a chance to thoughrouly search all the F names but I think its worth a shot

http://books.google.com/books?id=1vXnt0fkFa4C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=teacher+jock+canda+1974&source=web&ots=PA6AADu-ek&sig=PN6Sa69jF1zl2tpEKCNk-OsXm04&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA412,M1

Bud
08-11-2008, 03:27 PM
I found this source of information it is a book of Canadas Whos who ...

It list prominent Doctors lawyers etc etc I havent had a chance to thoughrouly search all the F names but I think its worth a shot

http://books.google.com/books?id=1vXnt0fkFa4C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=teacher+jock+canda+1974&source=web&ots=PA6AADu-ek&sig=PN6Sa69jF1zl2tpEKCNk-OsXm04&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA412,M1

If his first name was Jacques (i.e. Jock)... perhaps his middle name was Pierre... with another French last name starting with 'F'.

rmf
08-11-2008, 11:50 PM
I found this source of information it is a book of Canadas Whos who ...

It list prominent Doctors lawyers etc etc I havent had a chance to thoughrouly search all the F names but I think its worth a shot

http://books.google.com/books?id=1vXnt0fkFa4C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=teacher+jock+canda+1974&source=web&ots=PA6AADu-ek&sig=PN6Sa69jF1zl2tpEKCNk-OsXm04&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA412,M1

This was undertaken a while back, it was mentioned in the NP story. There is a very narrow group of doctors who would fit the profile of this person's father in terms of being the right age. All the physicians living and around what can be guessed as an age range with "F" last names were contacted with negative results.

Fairy1
08-12-2008, 01:59 AM
This was undertaken a while back, it was mentioned in the NP story. There is a very narrow group of doctors who would fit the profile of this person's father in terms of being the right age. All the physicians living and around what can be guessed as an age range with "F" last names were contacted with negative results.


:mad: No possibilities at all? :mad: What about in the US?

MaryLiz
08-12-2008, 07:20 AM
If his first name was Jacques (i.e. Jock)... perhaps his middle name was Pierre... with another French last name starting with 'F'.

That's what I thought too...or possibly Paul or Philippe. Normally Paul is a second name for Jean, (Jean-Paul). I didn't realize this but the name Jacques is actually French for the English name James. For some reason I thought Jacques was also French for John, as Jean is. I hope I explained that so it made sense..LOL! It doesn't really mean anything but I was just looking up French names and realized that.

phenolred
08-12-2008, 08:00 AM
During my searching once I came across some archive site (from Canada) that had yearbooks. However they were not available online. We would need someone IN Canada to look at them in person if anyone is up for it. I will have to find the site.....Post it later

MaryLiz
08-12-2008, 09:25 AM
Thanks for taking the time to go out and visit their graves, and for posting the pictures, shadetreePI.

phenolred
08-12-2008, 10:00 AM
Oh wow HOW COOL....Thanks for posting....Did you get to go to Locklair road where they were found?

Someone had posted somewhere about the feeling of gloom at that spot.

phenolred
08-12-2008, 01:42 PM
Really cool to see it out of context of the crime pics. So they were found over there on the LEFT hand side of your photo.

From your description it seems like someone would pretty much have to have know where this remote hard to see or be seen place was and knew it had easy access. Or did seem like a place someone could have randomly just pulled off the interstate at?

If you cant see it from the interstate it seems like that would be hard to do...

But the truck driver did pull over there for a rest.

How about neighbors how close were the houses.

rmf
08-12-2008, 02:07 PM
Great pics shadetree.

Be sure and watermark them so everyone knows they're yours ;)

phenolred
08-12-2008, 03:19 PM
Here is the info on the Canadian yearbooks.


This is the Glenbow Museum

there is Tons and Tons of information there....Alot of stuff is scanned and viewable others not but it holds alot of information but most of it, it from Western Canada


http://www.glenbow.org/collections/search/
About the School Yearbooks Catalogue

The School Yearbooks Catalogue contains descriptions of several hundred school yearbooks and other student publications produced in Western Canada, with an emphasis on Calgary and southern Alberta. Although most items in the Library collection have not been scanned, they may be accessed in various ways.

The School Districts Catalogue contains the names, locations, and dates of establishment of over 4600 school districts (primarily rural one-room schools), established in Alberta between 1885 and 1982.

phenolred
08-12-2008, 03:23 PM
Thank you for Sharing with us the pictures you took. We all know these are Shadtrees, since she posted them and gave the background stories about where she took them....
Im not gonna borrow them but I appreciate you sharing your story and giving us a first hand account of what its like around the place they were killed and laid to rest.

:clap:

christine2448
08-12-2008, 03:48 PM
Great pics shadetree.

Be sure and watermark them so everyone knows they're yours ;)

Who cares who's pics they are? I see people sharing, reposting pics everywhere in these cases..I have rarely seen any 'marked'. I know on myspace I see the same pics over and over of UIDs, ect, on different people's pages... I thought the idea was to get their pics out there. I have several pages, a website...not one pic is one I have personally taken. Trying to understand your remark.

rmf
08-12-2008, 04:39 PM
Who cares who's pics they are? I see people sharing, reposting pics everywhere in these cases..I have rarely seen any 'marked'. I know on myspace I see the same pics over and over of UIDs, ect, on different people's pages... I thought the idea was to get their pics out there. I have several pages, a website...not one pic is one I have personally taken. Trying to understand your remark.

IMO the time and effort that shadetree put into traveling to the crime scene to get those photos should be credited to her, hence my suggestion that she watermark the photos. This however, (again), is just my opinion. :)

Rosco
08-12-2008, 04:50 PM
Who cares who's pics they are? I see people sharing, reposting pics everywhere in these cases..I have rarely seen any 'marked'. I know on myspace I see the same pics over and over of UIDs, ect, on different people's pages... I thought the idea was to get their pics out there. I have several pages, a website...not one pic is one I have personally taken. Trying to understand your remark.

I have to agree christine2448 ... IMO

As a survivor of murdered family members (my father and stepmother) and in search for justice for their unsolved murders - personally I could care less who posted my murdered family's pic's on their myspace or anywhere... maybe get the case solved for more pps to see the info.. and get the cause out. They can take it right off of photo bucket.

I just feel that the more info out to the masses the best chance of having the crime solved or at the very least 'identified'.

I have Jock on dad and Darleen's myspace as a 'top friend'.


All my best.
Rosco

shadetreePI
08-12-2008, 06:39 PM
Thank you for the kudos guys. I don't post often, but I work on this case like mad. Sorry to get a "fight" started. RMF was just trying to be helpful. We all want the same thing here. Lets get back on topic, okay?!

I did think some of you might be interested in actually seeing the graves and the death site the way it is today. I've have that advantage since I live here. I shared because it meant something to me and I thought it would mean something to some of you.

christine2448
08-12-2008, 07:02 PM
IMO the time and effort that shadetree put into traveling to the crime scene to get those photos should be credited to her, hence my suggestion that she watermark the photos. This however, (again), is just my opinion. :)


Exactly as I thought.

I, personally, am not here for 'credit'...I am here to give them a name and hopefully give closure to family. 'Credit', I don't get that.:confused:

christine2448
08-12-2008, 07:04 PM
Thank you for the kudos guys. I don't post often, but I work on this case like mad. Sorry to get a "fight" started. RMF was just trying to be helpful. We all want the same thing here. Lets get back on topic, okay?!

I did think some of you might be interested in actually seeing the graves and the death site the way it is today. I've have that advantage since I live here. I shared because it meant something to me and I thought it would mean something to some of you.

Thank you for going, taking the time, and sharing pics. Awesome. I have done a lot of local work for WS and other pages...so rewarding you can be on location and share like you have.

shadetreePI
08-12-2008, 07:25 PM
Too much crap, IMO, over some dumb photos I thought I'd share w/you. I'll keep my stuff to myself next time.

rhyno1974
08-12-2008, 08:12 PM
Exactly as I thought.

I, personally, am not here for 'credit'...I am here to give them a name and hopefully give closure to family. 'Credit', I don't get that


I think there is a big difference between credit for some pictures being taken and credit for bringing closure to families. Two different things. I dont think too many of us on this forum are looking for credit for that aspect. You take time to take some pictures to share with us, why not get "credit" for it. If you help bring closure to a family...well that is just what we do here.


Too much crap, IMO, over some dumb photos I thought I'd share w/you. I'll keep my stuff to myself next time.


I think it was great of you to take the time to do this. I would like to see the photos but I dont see them posted anymore.

christine2448
08-12-2008, 08:49 PM
Too much crap, IMO, over some dumb photos I thought I'd share w/you. I'll keep my stuff to myself next time.
Yeah real dumb. Most of us thought not.

Talk to rmf.

You posted, you pulled, to put your mark. :woohoo:

What is the purpose??

Movin on. The photos, I personally, never were able to view, because some thought they need credit for there efforts, are now gone, and IMO, are not going to move this case forward.

So....next.

rmf
08-12-2008, 09:07 PM
Wow!

I am really sorry this all happened. My sincerest apologies to all!

I was merely suggesting that shadetree be given credit for her hard work and the fact that she traveled to the area and took the photos. They are her photos after all, so I didn't think there was anything wrong with her taking credit for them.

I didn't realize that was frowned upon on this forum... so just to clarify, are all photos fair game? No copyright issues if they are copied by anyone/everyone? Watermarking is not allowed? Just want to make sure I'm clear. Thanks.

christine2448
08-12-2008, 09:36 PM
I was merely suggesting that shadetree be given credit for her hard work and the fact that she traveled to the area and took the photos. They are her photos after all, so I didn't think there was anything wrong with her taking credit for them.



It's a sore spot with me, was just stating MO on the matter.

You included a ;) in your 'merely suggesting'...I made the point that we all share photos and the credit issue was not needed...JMO, FWIW....can we move on now??

rmf
08-12-2008, 09:38 PM
It's a sore spot with me, was just stating MO on the matter.


Understood! Thanks! :)

coltsgal
08-12-2008, 10:36 PM
Back to the DNA...

I remember seeing an episode of Law and order where Olivia put her DNA through a kinship analysis to see if it matched any other dna in the databank.

Is this a real process, and can it be done with these victims? Perhaps they have cousins/aunts/uncles...etc...that have a criminal record, or their dna is in the databank for another reason. Might be a long shot, but you never know.

christine2448
08-12-2008, 10:38 PM
Understood! Thanks! :)

:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

Bud
08-12-2008, 11:37 PM
Oh wow HOW COOL....Thanks for posting....Did you get to go to Locklair road where they were found?

Someone had posted somewhere about the feeling of gloom at that spot.

I think the road name should be Locklear Road (unless the map is incorrect). It's just southeast of where SR-341 and I-95 intersect. It runs parallel with I-95.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=sumter,+south+carolina&ie=UTF8&ll=34.008985,-79.996305&spn=0.0291,0.052099&z=15&iwloc=addr

Bud
08-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Great pics shadetree.

Be sure and watermark them so everyone knows they're yours ;)

Where are the pics? :waitasec:

I don't see shadetree's post... with pics.

Fairy1
08-13-2008, 12:44 AM
Photo credits are not necessary here. I appreciated seeing the pics - being so very far away and utterly frustrated by this case. But I suppose credit for the photos does nothing to move us any closer to a resolution. :mad: Jeez. What's next???

shadetreePI
08-13-2008, 07:05 AM
I think the road name should be Locklear Road (unless the map is incorrect). It's just southeast of where SR-341 and I-95 intersect. It runs parallel with I-95.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=sumter,+south+carolina&ie=UTF8&ll=34.008985,-79.996305&spn=0.0291,0.052099&z=15&iwloc=addr


Thought I wouldn't post again, but I couldn't help myself. I too thought the same thing. This is a clip from a video I took of Locklair Road. The photo is blurry, but you can make out the spelling..
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/ksquare1968/LocklairSign.jpg

phenolred
08-13-2008, 07:44 AM
Cant we all just get along ? I had wonder about the isotope testing where they can tell where a person lived. I think they did this with a little boy doe that was in CHICAGO ( i think)

MaryLiz
08-13-2008, 07:57 AM
Cant we all just get along ? I had wonder about the isotope testing where they can tell where a person lived. I think they did this with a little boy doe that was in CHICAGO ( i think)

Amen...

I do appreciate seeing the photos on here. Being wrapped up in this case and living in Ohio is very frustrating. I can't exactly run out to the Locklair Road or go to the grave sites or anywhere else in Sumter since I'm so far away. I truly appreciate the leg work ShadetreePI has done on this case and letting us see the photos to get a better feel for the area where this happened.

phenolred
08-14-2008, 01:16 PM
I dont think this is him but I just wanted to put it out there....LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED....




http://www.albertamissingpersons.ca/images/stories/library/data_files/ARCAND_Edward.pdf

phenolred
08-14-2008, 04:27 PM
This story should give us hope that Jock& Jane Doe CAN BEEN IDENTIFIED AND SENT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES. Alot of similarities with the cases

so i wonder have Jock & jane does fingerprints been run through AFIS since this is how this case from 1979 has been solved this year. Storys like these really give me hope.....

1) they were around the same period the 70's

2) Locals buried him as an unidentified

3) alot of physical evidence was missing (like Jocks Teeth)

4) He was exhumed in 2000 for DNA testing

The victim, found Nov. 12, 1979, was slightly built with long blond hair and blue or gray eyes.


Police said there was no sign of sexual assault.
He had been dead less than a day and was trussed up in a series of knots Fingerprints were taken, but in the 1970s, identification by computer cross-referencing was a still-new science and fingerprint databases were far from complete.

"I assume they sent the fingerprints out, but they were never connected to anyone," Stewart said.

Locals took up a collection to have the body buried in Pine Hill Cemetery. The tombstone read, "Unidentified Homicide Victim."

As Stewart began his investigation, he found much of the physical evidence was missing. Early investigators had not taken dental impressions, and DNA identification was not in use in 1979.

On July 31, 2000, the remains of the nameless victim were exhumed. By then, forensic investigation and computer search capabilities had blossomed, and Stewart was hopeful of getting a lead.
"I kind of thought from the beginning that the chances of me finding the party responsible was going to be limited," Stewart said. "But I thought maybe I can identify him."

DNA testing provided no revelations, but in June, acting on a colleague's suggestion, Stewart submitted the body's fingerprints through the FBI's Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System, a more efficient system for matching prints than was available in 1979.

The search produced a match from an arrest in Baytown, Texas, in 1979. Daniel Wayne Dewey had been arrested for a misdemeanor -- riding a motorcycle without a helmet or an operator's license.

"It was a relief at first," Dewey said. "Then I found out how he died and it became both relief and sadness. I can't get the way he was tied up out of my mind. The lonely way he died."

Over the years, Stewart's relationship with the dead boy had deepened.
"I felt like I had gotten to know him during the time I was trying to identify him," Stewart said. "It was moving to see him finally returned to them. It was like sending him home."

The family claimed the body and held a memorial service June 23.


full story here


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/07/trooper.cold.case.ap/

another link

http://es.noticias.yahoo.com/ap/20080807/foto/pot-trooper-cold-case-9399f-3881950b7ab50.html

phenolred
08-18-2008, 11:10 AM
Im was looking at Benjamin Kyles case and this was mentioned about getting him identified.

Searching for a family
At Kingston (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Jack+Kingston)'s request, the FBI (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation) took Kyle (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Benjaman+Kyle)'s fingerprints and forwarded them to the National Criminal Justice Information Services Division (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Information+Services+Division) in West Virginia (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=West+Virginia). There, technicians ran the prints through their national databases, which include convicted criminals, crime scene evidence and anyone who ever served in U.S. (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=United+States) armed forces, said William Kirkconnell (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=William+Kirkconnell), supervisory senior resident agent for the FBI (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation) in Savannah (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Savannah).


"There was nothing on file," They also took photographs and checked to make sure Kyle (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Benjaman+Kyle) was not in the federal Witness Protection Program, Kingston (http://savannahnow.com/content/related?topic=Jack+Kingston) said.

So I wonder if they were ran through Afis AND as in Mr Kyle's case they indicated checked to see if he was in federal witness protection.

I know this has been mentioned before but I wonder if it was ever checked into.

I dont know that canada would have something like the AFIS system

phenolred
08-20-2008, 10:02 AM
I see they have updated some of the information on the Doe Network including a new composite of Jane I think it looks GREAT!!!!

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/189ufsc.html

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

shadowangel
08-20-2008, 11:20 AM
I had wonder about the isotope testing where they can tell where a person lived.

I think this would be an excellent case for isotope testing. Recent developments in the use of hydrogen and oxygen isotopes from hair could give a strong indication of the couples' national origin. This article describes the basics of the process.
http://anthropology.net/2008/02/27/hydrogen-and-oxygen-isotopes-in-human-hair-can-tell-us-where-were-from/
There have also been strides in the use of strontium isotope levels in teeth, particular teeth enamel, to determine origin.

shadowangel
08-20-2008, 08:02 PM
I was glad to see a continuation in interest in this case...Among others, this one seems imminently solvable.
I looked through my notes from a few years ago when I was working this case. Here's a few random ramblings for the "FWIW" file.

Police were able to determine there were three active "Grant's Truck Stop"s at the time the couple were found... Lupton, AZ; Boise, ID; and York, NB.

In September, after LE had circulated photos of the pair, a mechanic in NB stated that the male closely resembled a man who had sought repair to his vehicle. He stated the vehicle had either OR or WA plates (a Yahoo image search showed that OR plates were blue with yellow lettering; WA plates were white with green lettering, the same as ID plates).

For some reason or the other, I was researching a supposed victim of Ted Bundy, Lynette Culver. Lynette was 12 years old when she disappeared from her school in Pocatello, ID in May of '75. Lynette was described as 5'2 to 5'3, around 110 pounds, with longish brown hair and blue eyes. The thing that caught my eye was the mole or moles near the left corner of her mouth, just like this Jane Doe. Lynette was described as looking older than her age. A detective who lived next to her investigated her disappearance even after he retired. He reported that one her friends said something to the effect that "she is happy where she is". His belief was that she ran away.
Ted Bundy confessed to several murders in the "11th hour" before his execution. In order to extend his existence, I'm surprised that Lincoln, Kennedy, and Cleopatra weren't on the list. Bundy stated he kidnapped Lynette then took her to a local hotel where he drowned her in the bathtub. He then dumped her in a river. I haven't found any information that his account was confirmed. Investigators tried to place him there through hotel records, but were unable. Her remains have never been located.

Reannan
08-24-2008, 02:42 PM
With the identification of Tawni Lee Mazzone, I have renewed hope for this case as well. I just KNOW that this case is solvable. I am still looking, and looking, and looking. There HAS to be something out there about these two missing people.

rmf
08-25-2008, 12:47 AM
The reprint of the National Post story is in the September 08 issue of Reader's Digest Canada. On newsstands now

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/cms/xcms/inside-the-september-issue-of-reader--s-digest_1135_a.html

EmilyE
08-25-2008, 04:16 AM
"He stated the vehicle had either OR or WA plates"
That is out my way. I can try some letters to the editor or pick them up as another case to put out flyers on.

Regarding her ear- it may be where she was shot is where it is dark there so maybe a trick of light. It does look oddly shaped even in the scene picture though. If it was very off, they probably would have said something about it as an ID characteristic.

I don't think they are related, although it's possible. Looking at the scene pics we only get half the face and the morgue pics, they don't look so much alike to me.

Looking for Jock, I'm going to be looking for his eyebrows.

I wonder why these folks haven't been ID'd. Has to be a reason, maybe we should list the reasons we can think of and then try to work off what we can from them.

Ill start-
No report made/report missing etc etc
Doe's come from area where Le isn't using internet/website
No family (unlikely)
Far from home
Comes from that area or USA but family thinks they are voluntary missing
Family also killed?
What else???

EmilyE
08-25-2008, 04:27 AM
"Here is one of the crime scene pics that I was talking about where it looks like the blood is going up and over the opposite way from the way his head is turned"

Umm once I came across a pic of the scene further away and it showed them both laying there with investigators standing around, one of them had their back side up, I think it was Jock. Pretty sure I remember this right.

I wish I could recall where that picture was, I really do, but I know I looked for those morgue pictures before after I saw them and couldn't find the darn site. I think it was the same site that had the morgues pics, the only other place I ever saw them. I'll look and see if I can find it.

"Four months after the slayings, police in Latta arrested a North Carolina man, Lonnie George Henry, for driving under the influence. While searching his vehicle, they found a .357-caliber handgun that they thought was used in the killings. Henry was never charged in the slayings and anything he might have known about them was buried along with him. Henry died in 1982."

HUH they had a suspect???
http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080809/ITNEWS01/997748564

Reannan
08-25-2008, 08:36 AM
Lonnie George Henry was given a lie detector test, and the results indicated that he was not involved in the murder, but he was untruthful about where he had gotten the gun. The gun had part of the serial number filed off, so it was stolen. Henry proably knew something about the previous owner of the gun, and that person would have been connected to the murder. LE dropped the ball on this one in not pursuing the trail of that gun IMHO. I wish we could make contact with a medical society in Canada and get the word circulating within that community. Maybe someone would remember a colleague that had a missing son from the 1970's. I am not giving up on this case!!!! Dang it!:waitasec:

shadowangel
08-25-2008, 11:24 AM
As I recall, the gun was reported in newspaper articles of the day to be a .38 caliber; in later updates its listed as a .357 magnum. I would have to believe it was in fact a .38---a .357 magnum would do a lot of damage entering or exiting.
The gun had belonged to Henry's brother who gave it to him as a Christmas present. The gun was sold and/or stolen while in Henry's brother's possession a few times, but the serial numbers were intact. As I recall, Henry admitted to filing the number off.
Henry stated he was in NC visiting his sick wife in the hospital, an account verified by persons there. Investigators determined it would not have been possible for Henry to get to the murder scene and back to the hospital within the times he was observed there.
Henry never satisfactorily explained how the gun left his possession long enough to commit the murders.

A note on the crime scene and morgue photos...I'm struck by the lack of gunshot residue on the neck wounds. I had assumed the killer placed the weapon under the chin of each victim and fired. Due to the lack of GSR (the gunpowder will literally "tattoo" the skin at close range) the killer must have made the final shots from a distance of at least a few feet.

MaryLiz
08-25-2008, 12:37 PM
As I recall, the gun was reported in newspaper articles of the day to be a .38 caliber; in later updates its listed as a .357 magnum. I would have to believe it was in fact a .38---a .357 magnum would do a lot of damage entering or exiting.
The gun had belonged to Henry's brother who gave it to him as a Christmas present. The gun was sold and/or stolen while in Henry's brother's possession a few times, but the serial numbers were intact. As I recall, Henry admitted to filing the number off.
Henry stated he was in NC visiting his sick wife in the hospital, an account verified by persons there. Investigators determined it would not have been possible for Henry to get to the murder scene and back to the hospital within the times he was observed there.
Henry never satisfactorily explained how the gun left his possession long enough to commit the murders.

A note on the crime scene and morgue photos...I'm struck by the lack of gunshot residue on the neck wounds. I had assumed the killer placed the weapon under the chin of each victim and fired. Due to the lack of GSR (the gunpowder will literally "tattoo" the skin at close range) the killer must have made the final shots from a distance of at least a few feet.

Yes, he did admit to it. I don't think he was guilty of the murders, but someone he knew, possibly even someone close to him probably was. Why else would he try to file the serial number off the gun?

snippet from article about Henry

"When confronted with the new information, Henry confessed to filing the serial numbers off himself."

phenolred
08-25-2008, 01:55 PM
I think in this pic you can see the black dots that appear under her chin, around the chin lower cheek areas. I had thought this was from the gun shot sort of a peppered look.

Someone on another board brought up an interesting point. Regarding Lonnie George Henry and the "murder weapon". They asked if Henry was ever charged for removing the serial number from the gun, since it is a felony to do so.

So I looked it up and based on the Gun Control Act of 1968 it is a federal crime and a FELONY.... to alter the serial number from a gun. Lonnie Henry ADMITTED to removing the serial number himself. The law indicates its a crime to just be in possesion of an altered gun. Here he is in possesion of the gun, he admits to being the one to alter the gun and he was pulled over for DUI, which is how they found the gun, but they just let him go because he couldnt have done it because he was at the hospital with his wife that night.

It seems like they could have used this as leverage to get him to tell who did it if NOT HIM.

If he were sitting in jail facing a couple of felony charges he might have decided to talk rather than take the fall for somebody else. Whoever did it must have been someone close to Lonnie Henry.

The only good that does us, is if the person who did it remembered anything about the victims.

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter;or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered;or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter;or

rmf
08-25-2008, 02:20 PM
I wish we could make contact with a medical society in Canada and get the word circulating within that community. Maybe someone would remember a colleague that had a missing son from the 1970's. I am not giving up on this case!!!! Dang it!:waitasec:

As a matter of fact, there is a retired law enforcement officer in Canada who has taken an interest in this case who is working on that angle right now.:)

MaryLiz
08-25-2008, 02:30 PM
I think in this pic you can see the black dots that appear under her chin, around the chin lower cheek areas. I had thought this was from the gun shot sort of a peppered look.

Someone on another board brought up an interesting point. Regarding Lonnie George Henry and the "murder weapon". They asked if Henry was ever charged for removing the serial number from the gun, since it is a felony to do so.

So I looked it up and based on the Gun Control Act of 1968 it is a federal crime and a FELONY.... to alter the serial number from a gun. Lonnie Henry ADMITTED to removing the serial number himself. The law indicates its a crime to just be in possesion of an altered gun. Here he is in possesion of the gun, he admits to being the one to alter the gun and he was pulled over for DUI, which is how they found the gun, but they just let him go because he couldnt have done it because he was at the hospital with his wife that night.

It seems like they could have used this as leverage to get him to tell who did it if NOT HIM.

If he were sitting in jail facing a couple of felony charges he might have decided to talk rather than take the fall for somebody else. Whoever did it must have been someone close to Lonnie Henry.

The only good that does us, is if the person who did it remembered anything about the victims.

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter;or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered;or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter;or

Wow, good point. I didn't know it was a felony. That makes it all the more strange that LE didn't pursue that in order to get him to talk since he admitted to being the one to file off the serial number!

Mark Franzeo
08-25-2008, 02:37 PM
I apologize in advance for my very long post.

I personally think too much stock has been put in the fact that they were probably related and the camp ground worker’s husband’s statement about recognizing Jock.

We should be focusing Identifying each one separately. If you identify one, at least you can then start tracing how their paths met and lead you to iding both. If you look at the original sketches they were pretty much drawn as brother and sister. I think that hindered the case from the get go. The best chance of iding these two was in 1976 or 77. Some one looking for a male or female relative not two relatives might have discounted a match to Jock or Jane since they were considered related.

I personally think they were not. I find it odd that two people from the same family goes missing and neither one is looked for? That seems very unlikely to me. Even if the father disowned his son, what are the chances he disowned his daughter too or visa versa. Also, Jock had better dental care than Jane. If they were related especially to a doctor, wouldn’t they have received the same level of dental care? Also, I find it more likely that a young man in his 20's would be more apt to choose a girlfriend or even just a friend than his sister as a traveling companion. I think there is a slight resemblance between the two but it could be just a familiar look among what ancestry they have. Example. I am Italian. A lot of people of Italian decent have a familiar look to me even though were are not related. The resembles of the two could be something like that.

Also, there is no telling how long they knew one another. He could have picked her up anytime in his travels. There could be a huge gap between the time they both went missing from each other. Example. What if he went missing in 1970 and he met her in 1975? A match could be discounted that way also.

As for the story about Jock at the campground. There is no telling it was the same couple. Take for example what info we had about Maricopa Jane doe. A woman remembered meeting her and her name was Corey or Carla and she could not get a job at a club because she was only 15. Then she said her name might be Diane and she was from Wichita. None of which actually turned out to be correct. He name was actually Tawni, she was 17 and from Arizona.

Even if people have good intentions, people’s memories can be wrong and a lot of times they are.

There is a good chance they are not the same couple. If that is the case then he could not even be from Canada. He could be American, Mexican, European, he could be from anywhere.

Also, everyone that did have info pertaining to this case have since passed on. So they can’t even be requestioned or shown pictures etc. What if he was shown one of the old sketches which on my opinion do not look like them really.

If I come up with any more Ideas I will post. Let me know if anyone agrees with me.

rmf
08-25-2008, 02:51 PM
Hi Mark

I have never been under the impression that this couple were related. I have also spoken to the authorities in Sumter on many occasions and they are not certain about that either. That is one thing the DNA should determine, but I am not of the opinion that the theory they are brother and sister has been heavily pushed by anyone who has looked at this case. We simply don't know.

As for the campground manager's account of meeting a couple that fit their description, it is entirely possible that they were different people. The thing that stands out is that the man represented himself as a person with a "J" first name, which lines up with the initials on the ring the John Doe was wearing. If the man at the campground had said his name was Fred, I think the campground worker's account would hold far less water. The main issue though, is that the Canada angle was never followed up on by anyone. The report laid in the case file for decades. That is why the Canada angle is being explored now, because more than anything, it needs to be ruled out.

The Canada explanation also makes sense to me in other ways. If they were from Canada, that would explain perhaps why no one has come looking for them. Back in those days, cross-border LE coordination was not really happening. In addition, people could just leave and missing persons reports were just not taken by the police and if they were, they are probably archived or lost by now.

The thought has also crossed my mind that the male was a draft dodger who lived in Canada for while and had returned back to the States. The possibilities are endless.

Mark Franzeo
08-25-2008, 03:05 PM
rmf. You make some very good points. I agree that any lead regardless how small must be followed and it is true the Canada angle was never fully investigated back in 1976. Another thought of the campground lead. If they were staying at a campground they would have to have a car or some kind of transportation right? If they were not taken to the place where they were killed in their own vehicle, I wonder if any reports from that time exist of abandoned cars or any cars that were towed in the area. If could be that their car was left somewhere and taken to impound as a abandoned car etc.

MaryLiz
08-25-2008, 03:08 PM
I apologize in advance for my very long post.

I personally think too much stock has been put in the fact that they were probably related and the camp ground worker’s husband’s statement about recognizing Jock.

We should be focusing Identifying each one separately. If you identify one, at least you can then start tracing how their paths met and lead you to iding both. If you look at the original sketches they were pretty much drawn as brother and sister. I think that hindered the case from the get go. The best chance of iding these two was in 1976 or 77. Some one looking for a male or female relative not two relatives might have discounted a match to Jock or Jane since they were considered related.

I personally think they were not. I find it odd that two people from the same family goes missing and neither one is looked for? That seems very unlikely to me. Even if the father disowned his son, what are the chances he disowned his daughter too or visa versa. Also, Jock had better dental care than Jane. If they were related especially to a doctor, wouldn’t they have received the same level of dental care? Also, I find it more likely that a young man in his 20's would be more apt to choose a girlfriend or even just a friend than his sister as a traveling companion. I think there is a slight resemblance between the two but it could be just a familiar look among what ancestry they have. Example. I am Italian. A lot of people of Italian decent have a familiar look to me even though were are not related. The resembles of the two could be something like that.

Also, there is no telling how long they knew one another. He could have picked her up anytime in his travels. There could be a huge gap between the time they both went missing from each other. Example. What if he went missing in 1970 and he met her in 1975? A match could be discounted that way also.

As for the story about Jock at the campground. There is no telling it was the same couple. Take for example what info we had about Maricopa Jane doe. A woman remembered meeting her and her name was Corey or Carla and she could not get a job at a club because she was only 15. Then she said her name might be Diane and she was from Wichita. None of which actually turned out to be correct. He name was actually Tawni, she was 17 and from Arizona.

Even if people have good intentions, people’s memories can be wrong and a lot of times they are.

There is a good chance they are not the same couple. If that is the case then he could not even be from Canada. He could be American, Mexican, European, he could be from anywhere.

Also, everyone that did have info pertaining to this case have since passed on. So they can’t even be requestioned or shown pictures etc. What if he was shown one of the old sketches which on my opinion do not look like them really.

If I come up with any more Ideas I will post. Let me know if anyone agrees with me.

You have presented some very interesting thoughts. Thanks for weighing in on this case.

I personally have never thought they were related. I considered the possibility as some people had mentioned it on here but in the end, I just couldn't believe they were. I think you're right, with the early sketches of the two they did sort of resemble each other, which kind of started out the investigation in the wrong direction by mentioning that they could have been brother and sister. Then people naturally looked for similarities between the two of them. But after viewing the morgue and crime scene photos I didn't think they looked alike. And I totally agree that if two people were missing from the same family it would be unbelievable that no one was looking for them.

I realize they could be from anywhere. I just have a "feeling" about one or both of them being from Canada. Of course that doesn't mean they are. I just mentioned to someone last week that the whole story John Doe told the guy at the campground could have been made up and we could be barking up the wrong tree. Because I just keep leaning towards Canada, I will probably continue my main searching there, but I do also search in the USA and Europe as well, particularly France.

All the odds in this case are stacked against ever identifying them or solving the murders. But I still believe it's possible they can be identified. There have been a lot of bad breaks too in this case what with the registration cards from the campground burning in a fire and the guy from the campground being deceased when LE went to talk to him again. Now we realize that filing the serial number from a gun is a felony offense and LE could have held Lonnie Henry on that charge until he talked but he was never charged with anything.

Hopefully, when LE gets the DNA back that will put the investigation in a new direction and they will be able to find a match somewhere!

phenolred
08-25-2008, 04:18 PM
rmf. You make some very good points. I agree that any lead regardless how small must be followed and it is true the Canada angle was never fully investigated back in 1976. Another thought of the campground lead. If they were staying at a campground they would have to have a car or some kind of transportation right? If they were not taken to the place where they were killed in their own vehicle, I wonder if any reports from that time exist of abandoned cars or any cars that were towed in the area. If could be that their car was left somewhere and taken to impound as a abandoned car etc.
Its my understanding that there are/were alot of swamp like areas where a car could be driven in never to be seen again.

shadowangel
08-25-2008, 04:29 PM
The couple may also have been hitchhiking, with no vehicle. They may have been carrying all their belongings in backpacks, which would have been easy enough for the killer to ditch. As was stated early on, this was the summer of '76, the American Bicentennial. The summer was basicilly one non-stop party from coast to coast.

All I've seen of the crime scene are the couple of photos that were posted on sites like Crime Library. The 'road' looks less like a road than a wide path through the weeds. I know it had a name, but still...Anyone know more about it?

rmf
08-25-2008, 04:36 PM
About a vehicle: the case reports indicate the tire tracks at the scene likely belonged to a van. It is possible the van was theirs and they were sleeping in it at campgrounds and then staying in motels every few days. I say this because Mrs Moore told me in one of our conversations that the couple were very clean when they were found and that it appeared they had showered within the day or so before they were killed. That's why I really don't think they were hitchhiking. Also the girl had on wedge heeled sandals which would make walking and hitching very difficult, IMO.

I also forgot to add in my earlier post that there are several common denominators that point back to Canada:

- the campground worker's account
- the truckstop matches-- there was a Grant's truck stop in York, New Brunswick (as the other poster also stated)
- they look (to me anyway) to be Quebecois or Acadian.
- the lack of any search for them and that they were unknown to people in the community
- the ring/the name Jock/Jacques

shadowangel
08-25-2008, 05:33 PM
About a vehicle: the case reports indicate the tire tracks at the scene likely belonged to a van. It is possible the van was theirs and they were sleeping in it at campgrounds and then staying in motels every few days. I say this because Mrs Moore told me in one of our conversations that the couple were very clean when they were found and that it appeared they had showered within the day or so before they were killed. That's why I really don't think they were hitchhiking. Also the girl had on wedge heeled sandals which would make walking and hitching very difficult, IMO.

I also forgot to add in my earlier post that there are several common denominators that point back to Canada:

- the campground worker's account
- the truckstop matches-- there was a Grant's truck stop in York, New Brunswick (as the other poster also stated)
- they look (to me anyway) to be Quebecois or Acadian.
- the lack of any search for them and that they were unknown to people in the community
- the ring/the name Jock/Jacques

If that were based on my post, I meant York Nebraska...Sorry for the confusion.

rmf
08-25-2008, 06:04 PM
Ah. My mistake shadow!

matknee
08-25-2008, 10:32 PM
the years are off but this female bears a striking resemblance to Mary Francis Gregory another possible match Maria Anjiras

rmf
08-25-2008, 10:47 PM
The key to IDing the female in this case are the moles on the left side of her mouth. According the coroner, she was born with them. If we can find someone with those two moles, then we're gold.

Reannan
08-25-2008, 11:57 PM
You guys are the best!!! :blowkiss: I am totally obsessed with this case. I live in South Carolina, although not on the coast. I could be at the exact location in about two hours, however - and I am willing to go anywhere in the state that you guys think would be helpful. I also do not believe the couple was brother and sister, although I can see where that possibility was valid. He seems a bit older than her, and I just don't see brother and sister travelling together like that, and neither being missed by family. The Canadian connection feels right to me because of the way Jock/Jacques looked. Also, the name "Jock" would have been pretty rare in SC during the 1970's, and the initials on the ring add some credence to this name. She was definitely NOT from South Carolina, or even from the South. She did not shave her legs, and no decent Southern woman would be caught dead not shaving her legs in the 1970's. I moved to Michigan in the early 1980's for a while, and managed to get into an argument with women from the North over this issue. Long story..... Anyway, one of the questions that I have not seen explored a lot, is the motive for the crime. Why? Why were they killed? IMHO, it was a robbery. No wallet, money, or identification was left behind with either of the victims - so what happened to it??? They HAD to have had some ID at some point! Was it their van that was being driven? I am on the fence with this one. I can easily see a couple that was drifting around the country accepting a ride with someone who seemed "friendly" at first - someone who they had met at the campground perhaps. I can also easily see a couple with a van picking up a "nice" stranger in need and giving him/her a ride. I wonder if any other campgrounds along I-95 would still have records from 1976??? Has anyone explored that angle?

Reannan
08-25-2008, 11:58 PM
the years are off but this female bears a striking resemblance to Mary Francis Gregory another possible match Maria Anjiras

Matknee, do you have links or states those two women were reported missing? Thanks!

Teresa Larson
08-26-2008, 01:39 AM
The matches came from the Grants Truck Stop in New Mexico, Nebraska or Idaho. In the United States

Teresa Larson
08-26-2008, 01:56 AM
I thought about their car/van being towed awhile back too. I think we should find out if any cars or vans were towed to the impound within a few months of this happening that nobody ever claimed.

EmilyE
08-26-2008, 03:36 AM
Thanks Reannan for bringing me up to speed on Henry.

"Also the girl had on wedge heeled sandals which would make walking and hitching very difficult, IMO."
Good point rmf - us girls never took to walking or long distance hitchhiking in heels.

I just want to say too, since I am new and recently read all the stuff up front for new members. (not to start the issue up again! but people should know!) That marking your pictures, keeps them yours, otherwise they become web sleuths by copyright. There is a difference between credit and copyright. And WS will take it if you don't. So the next time someone credit bashes, mention it is your picture and you intend to keep it yours. Otherwise, you have to ask WS to use it etc. Read the copyright info.

Let me see if I can find that site with the picture now.

EmilyE
08-26-2008, 03:45 AM
Here it is, I must have been thinking of another picture because this isn't exactly the way I remembered it. But this must be the one I saw for them.

(Scroll down)
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html

kline
08-26-2008, 04:50 AM
I think in this pic you can see the black dots that appear under her chin, around the chin lower cheek areas. I had thought this was from the gun shot sort of a peppered look.

Someone on another board brought up an interesting point. Regarding Lonnie George Henry and the "murder weapon". They asked if Henry was ever charged for removing the serial number from the gun, since it is a felony to do so.

So I looked it up and based on the Gun Control Act of 1968 it is a federal crime and a FELONY.... to alter the serial number from a gun. Lonnie Henry ADMITTED to removing the serial number himself. The law indicates its a crime to just be in possesion of an altered gun. Here he is in possesion of the gun, he admits to being the one to alter the gun and he was pulled over for DUI, which is how they found the gun, but they just let him go because he couldnt have done it because he was at the hospital with his wife that night.

It seems like they could have used this as leverage to get him to tell who did it if NOT HIM.

If he were sitting in jail facing a couple of felony charges he might have decided to talk rather than take the fall for somebody else. Whoever did it must have been someone close to Lonnie Henry.

The only good that does us, is if the person who did it remembered anything about the victims.

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter;or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered;or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter;or
This is where this story and the 'explanation'about how Lonnie Henry was
'handled' by LE strays into the Twighlight Zone for me.
Your in possesion of a firearm with serial numbers altered (Which yes is indeed a felony) its determined its a murder weapon in a pair of unsolved homicides...and LE lets him go after a half assed explanation????
And apparently does very little or no follow up??
In what alternate dimension of reality does something like that happen?
One thing about this case is certainly not a mystery:Why it remained unsolved for thirty odd years.
Another thing...this is a pretty common caliber of gun.
What prompted them to consider that this might be the murder weapon in this particular case?

MaryLiz
08-26-2008, 07:40 AM
the years are off but this female bears a striking resemblance to Mary Francis Gregory another possible match Maria Anjiras

Mary Frances Gregory has already been considered, but you're right, the years are off as she disappeared in February 1978 from Ontario, Canada.

MaryLiz
08-26-2008, 07:45 AM
The matches came from the Grants Truck Stop in New Mexico, Nebraska or Idaho. In the United States

Right, there were Grant's Truck Stops in those states, but it was also discovered there was one in York, New Brunswick, Canada, which could lend credence to the possibility that one or both of them was from Canada. I always suspected though, that they got the matches out west if they were traveling across the USA in 1976.

shadetreePI
08-26-2008, 08:48 AM
I want to say thank you to EmilyE. Very well said. :clap:

"I just want to say too, since I am new and recently read all the stuff up front for new members. (not to start the issue up again! but people should know!) That marking your pictures, keeps them yours, otherwise they become web sleuths by copyright. There is a difference between credit and copyright. And WS will take it if you don't. So the next time someone credit bashes, mention it is your picture and you intend to keep it yours. Otherwise, you have to ask WS to use it etc. Read the copyright info."

And, I want to add that I am very impressed with Mark Frazeo's comments and thoughts. Hope to see more postings from him.

To Reannan: Where in SC do you live? You know I live here too, right?

Reannan
08-26-2008, 09:26 AM
To Reannan: Where in SC do you live? You know I live here too, right?

Hey Shadetree! No, I guess I didn't know you lived here too. I live on the SC side of the Savannah River near Augusta, GA. What about you??