The Doe Network, Part 4: Who is Princess Blue? [Archive] - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

LionRun

01-12-2008, 07:37 PM

The Doe Network site is now updated to include a number of previously known facts (Note: some, "facts" like her weight of 175LB in life were not true, for example) along with results from the more recent examination completed by a forensics team in March of 2007. Prior to that we had only the 1990 autopsy report to go by.

There are a number of changes; however, the most significant finding from the 2007 forensic examination is that Princess Blue, at from between 4' 11"-5' 3" in life did not weigh 175LB. Instead she was of slight to medium build, although no new approximate weight in numbers was stated in the new report to the best of our knowledge.

Here is a link and info from The Doe Network.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/137uftx.html

The Doe Network:
Case File 137UFTX
http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX3.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX4.jpg
Reconstructions of Victim
Unidentified White / Mixed Female


The victim was discovered on September 10, 1990 in Brazoria County, Texas.
Skeletal Remains
Vital Statistics


Estimated age: 17 - 21 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 4'11" - 5'3"; with a slight to medium build.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Two fractured ribs; and a "defect" on a bone beneath her left knee. The victim possibly had a tumor on her knee.
Other: Originally thought to be Hispanic, the new analysis indicates the young woman was White, with the probability of some Black traits. According to the forensic analysis, it is likely one parent or one grandparent was Black.
Dentals: Dental information available. Tooth #10, an upper left, lateral incisor, which is right next to her two front most teeth was surgically removed prior to death and the corresponding alveolar space was partially obliterated by mature bone.
DNA: IN CODIS
Jewelry: One pearl, beaded bracelet
Six rings,
One gold band ring with six clear stones
One silver band with a scroll design,
Two thin silver bands
One silver-colored ring with a turquoise horse or unicorn,
One 1975, size 9 1/2, Robert E. Lee, Houston, TX High School ring. This ring has a blue stone with a silver colored, inexpensive metal band. It is unknown whether or not there were ever engravings on the inner side of the ring's band. The ring was upsized twice, which would have removed evidence of previous engravings. However, it does have an inlaid, "L" which many students chose as an option that year that stands for the school mascot, Robert E. Lee himself.
Nickname: “Princess Blue”http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX1.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX2.jpg
Victim's Rings
Case History
The victim was located on a pile of debris at the end of a Brazoria County road (101) just east of Highway 288 inside the Manvel city limits on September 10, 1990.
The skeleton was found by a man who had pulled off the highway to relieve himself. He stepped behind a barricade and saw a skull in an old tire.
No purse, wallet, clothing or hair were located around the skeleton, six rings were on the fingers, and a bracelet around her wrist.
The company that made Robert E. Lee High School's (now Lee High School) rings doesn't have records from 1975. The Lee class of 1975 had about 300 girls. Authorities would like to hear from any of the girls who lost a ring or gave it to somebody else.
Toxicology tests yielded no trace of opiates in her bone marrow. However, it is unknown whether or not other drugs were present, tested for or could have been tested for.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
Manvel Police Department
Detective Sergeant Jay Coffman
281-489-1212
Email (jcoffman@manvelpd.org)
or
Brazoria County Sheriff's Office
Investigator Richard Rosser
281-756-2218
Email (richardr@brazoria-county.com)
or
Harris County Medical Examiner
713-796-9292
Or
Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse
800-346-3243
You may remain anonymous when submitting information.
Agency Case Number:
TXDPS U0310014
NCIC Number:
U-940003426 
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.
Source Information:
Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0310014)
Chron Com
My Fox Houston 6/7/07 (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=3427425&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)
TXDPS (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr060707.pdf)

RKnowley

01-12-2008, 08:05 PM

Lion, thank you for posting Princess Blue's updateed information.

There is one more thing I am wondering about (just noticed it). Princess Blue's doenetwork information says under Princess Blue's dentals that Princess Blue had an upper left ,front tooth had been surgically removed. I wonder if it should say that it was the upper left tooth that is next to her front tooth? To me the way it is worded now it sounds like it was her left front tooth that was surgically removed and not the upper left tooth that is next to the front tooth. Maybe I am just not interpretating <sp?> it correctly?

LionRun

01-12-2008, 08:14 PM

This is a draft written up by the Texas Department of Public Safety, which contains some of the updated information resulting from the recent, thorough forensic examination on Princess Blue completed in March of 2007.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr060707.pdf

Draft June 7, 2007 Draft
DPS hopes new clues give face a name
Houston high school class ring provides intriguing clue
The Brazoria County Sheriff’s Office, the Manvel Police Department and the Texas Department of Public Safety hope new developments will help identify skeletal remains found in northern Brazoria County in 1990.
Two new forensic drawings of the victim’s possible appearance with either short or long hair were developed from the victim’s skull by the Texas Ranger forensic artist. The facial reproductions, pictured above, can also be found at

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr060707photos.htm.

For a recorded sound bite on this topic, call 512-424-2606 Read about DPS online at www.txdps.state.tx.us
In addition, after the Sheriff’s Office reopened the case, the University of North Texas System Center for Human Identification in Denton recently performed an extensive forensic analysis that has provided new clues to the young woman’s identity.

Originally thought to be Hispanic in 1990, new forensic analysis indicates the young woman was Caucasian, with the probability of some African-American traits. According to the forensic analysis, it is likely one parent or one grandparent was African-American.

Her age at the time of her death was determined to be between 17 to 21 years old. Her height was between 4 feet 11 inches and 5 feet 3 inches, with a slight to medium build.

For a recorded sound bite on this topic, call 512-424-2606 Read about DPS online at www.txdps.state.tx.us (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us)

The victim was also wearing six rings, including a silver-colored 1975 Robert E. Lee High School (Houston) class ring—a clue investigators think may help identify the woman. One online forum has nicknamed the young woman "Princess Blue" because of the color of the stone in the class ring. (Pictures of some of the rings can be found at

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr060707photos.htm.)

"The ring is an important clue," said Manvel Police Detective Sgt. Jay Coffman. "It could have belonged to a friend, a young mother, a relative or the woman herself. Anyone who was a student at Houston’s Robert E. Lee High School in the seventies who lost, sold or let someone else borrow a similar ring should contact authorities."

The skeletal remains were discovered in a trash-dumping area at the end of County Road 101, just east of Highway 288 on Sept. 10, 1990 inside the Manvel city limits. Investigators have not determined a cause of death or when she died, but her death is considered suspicious. No clothes were found with the remains.

A person with a missing family member matching all or part of this description and timeline should also contact authorities. A DNA test from a living relative could be used to identify the woman.

In addition to the high school ring, other jewelry found includes:

One silver-colored ring with a turquoise horse or unicorn
One silver-colored band with a scroll design
Two silver-colored bands
One pearl-type beaded bracelet
One gold-colored band ring with six clear stones

Anyone with information regarding this investigation can contact the Manvel Police Department at the 281-489-1212 or e-mail Sgt. Coffman at jcoffman@manvelpd.org.

They can also contact Brazoria County Sheriff’s Investigator Richard Rosser at 281-756-2218 or e-mail him at richardr@brazoria-county.com .

This (DPS case # U03-10-014) and other unidentified cases are profiled online at the Texas Department of Public Safety’s Missing Persons Clearing House at www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/ (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/).

Media note: Sgt. Coffman (281-489-1212) and Investigator Rosser (281-756-2218) are the primary media contacts in this case.
### (PIO 2007-0023)

LionRun

01-12-2008, 08:21 PM

Lion, thank you for posting Princess Blue's updateed information.

There is one more thing I am wondering about (just noticed it). Princess Blue's doenetwork information says under Princess Blue's dentals that Princess Blue had an upper left ,front tooth had been surgically removed. I wonder if it should say that it was the upper left tooth that is next to her front tooth? To me the way it is worded now it sounds like it was her left front tooth that was surgically removed and not the tooth the upper left tooth that is next to the front tooth. Maybe I am just not interpretating <sp?> it correctly?

I see that, too. I am working on getting the main issues resolved, and then hopefully I can ask her to change that, too.

Lion

LionRun

01-12-2008, 08:35 PM

Here is a copy of the original autopsy report done on Princess Blue in 1990. A Houston reporter, Craig Malisow, was gracious enough to provide this for us. Please note that a complete forensics work-up was completed in March of 2007; however, we have not yet been able to obtain a copy of it. There is much updated information in the report, and if we are able to obtain it we will post it on this thread.

History: These skeletal remains of a Hispanic female were found under a trash pile at the dead end of County Road 101, east of Hwy 288, Manvel, Brazoria County, Texas at 5 pm on Sept. 10, 1990. Some property (jewelry) was recovered at the scene with the skeletal remains.

Autopsy: The uatopsy was performed in the [HCME's office] by forensic pathologist Eduardo Bellas, MD, at the request of and upon the written authorization of the Hon. Bill Todd, Justice of the Peace, Precinct 8, Brazoria County, Texas, beginning at 2 pm on Sept. 11, 1990.

Extrernal Appearance: The bpdy was that of a totally skeletonized human remains which consisted of the entire skull with nonprominant frontal ridges or mastoid process. The nasal aperture were those of a caucasion configuration and the upper arch was U-shaped, resembling mongoloid character. The cheek bones were not prominent. The orbital sockets were rather square. The right and left sides of the upper jaw were not still fused as was not the transversal suture of the hard palate.

The foramen magnum and the configuration of the base of the skull and the outside of the skull showed no abnormalities. Upon removal of the calvarium, it was found that the clivus was almost totally obliterated and the endocranium appeared to be not remarkable. Natural teeth in good condition in part and some in bad condition were observed. According with the Universal System, teeth 1, 17 and 32 (wisdom teeth) were present and unerupted. Tooth 16 was absent. The corresponding alveolar spavce was totally obliterated by mature bone tissue.

There was a large caries on the buccal aspect in tooth 2 and tooth 5 was missing postmortem. Teeth 3 and 4 were in good condition as well as tooth 14 which had a minute occlusal amalgam. Tooth 6 (upper right canine) had extensive caries at the mesial surface extending to the buccal surface as well as toward the lingual area. Tooth 9 (left upper central incisor) had a recent occlusal postmortem fracture at the tip. Tooth 10 was surgically absent and the corresponding alveolar space partially obliterated by mature bone. In the lower arch, tooth 17 was unerupted and tooth 18 had a minute round buccal amalgam. Tooth 19 had a large occlusal caries extending to buccal, mesial and distal aspects with only 1/3 of the crown surface left. Teeth 2o-29 were present. A large caries on the mesial and buccal surgace of tooth 20 was observed. A small lateral caries was noticed in tghe lateral aspect of tooth 29. Teeth 30 and 31 were in good condition, however, the lateral aspect of tooth 30 was observed with black discoloration of the crown area and conssitent with a distal caries.

The lower jaw was intact. The two scapula as well as the hip bones were submitted and the fusion between the first sacral vertebra with the sacrum was incomplete in the anterior portion. the configuration of the three bones of the pelvbis were consistent with female-type and the symphysis pubis with numerous pits alternating with the elevations which suggested a very young person. The fusion of the iliac crests of the hip bones was partial in some areas. The sternum was submitted in two pieces and was not remarkable. 22 ribs were submitted. The right first rib aliong with the second right rib showed a hairline fracture measuring 1-3/4 inches in length in the first right rib and 1-1/4 inches in the second right rib. In addition, 1-1/4 inches before the anterior tip of the second rib there was a transveral compression.

The two humeri with the two cubitus and radii were submitted and not remarkable. Similarly, both femurs, both tibias and fibulas were also submitted. The bones of the extremities showed no abnormalities except for a defect in the distal portion of the left tibia extending up to the articular surface and measured one inch in the virtucal dimension and 1-1/4 inches anteroposteriorly. The length of the humeri was 11-1/2 inches each. The length of both femurs was 16-1/2 inches. The length of the tibia was 13-3/4 inches. Also submitted were the seven cervical vertebrae, the five lumbar vertebrae and the eleven thoracic vertebrae. None of the certebrae submitted showed any abnormalities. In addition, multiple bones of the hands and feet were submitted and were not remarkable. The central portion and the two wings of the hyoid bone were identified and intact.

Lab results: Opiate -- bone marrow=negative

Opinion: It is my opinion that the cause and manner of death of the decedent, unidentified skeletal remains of a Hispanic female, is undetermined.

barb0301

01-13-2008, 06:00 PM

Has anyone thought of posting the ring information on this site http://www.classringfinder.com/ ?

LionRun

01-13-2008, 06:03 PM

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50140&page=12

Eruption Charts
Primary Teeth Eruption Chart
http://www.ada.org/images/public/topics/chart_eruption_primary.gif
Permanent Teeth Eruption Chart
http://www.ada.org/images/public/topics/chart_eruption_permanent.gif

From the original ME's report dated circa 9/90. My comments are in blue.:
http://www.ada.org/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.ada.org/images/public/topics/permanent_number_chart.jpg

"teeth 1, 17 and 32 (wisdom teeth) were present and unerupted."

There is no mention that any of the 3 wisdom teeth were impacted, and that none had yet erupted further indicates that Princess died between the ages of 17 and 21. There are exceptions to this, and I think someone may have posted here that their wisdom teeth didn't erupt until the age of 24. This would be more of an exception.

ETA: Other methods, including examining/measuring the long bones and studying certain sutures may have also been used to estimate Princess Blue's age at date of death. I didn't include this in post 451 on thread 3, and it may have caused some unnecessary confusion. I am sorry about that.

Tooth 16 was absent. The corresponding alveolar spavce was totally obliterated by mature bone tissue.

That there was mature (fully formed) bone tissue filling the gap where wisdom tooth 16 should have been, the tooth was perhaps either surgically removed some time before death (the gap was completely filled with fully formed bone--that takes time to occur afte a tooth, especially a tooth with a large root is removed). Or it is possible that wisdom tooth #16 never formed.

Okay, I will try and keep it as simple as possible from now on.

This report seems to lack detail in that some teeth are not even mentioned. It is inconsistent concerning the condition of all of the teeth. Some teeth are describes as, "present", yet we don't know what condition they may have been in. I assume that if there was anything outstanding it would hopefully have been mentioned.

"?" means the tooth was not mentioned either way.

Tooth Numbers

1. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted.

2. present-large carries

3. present-good condition

4. present-good condition

5. absent-but this occurred after death, so a missing report would not list tooth 5 as missing.

6. present-large carries

7. ?

8. ?

9. present-fractured tip after death, so this would not have been on a missing report

10. Absent-was surgically removed prior to death. The gap in the bone was partially filled in with new bone, and this indicates that the dental procedure was possibly performed a few months to a year prior to Princess's death from my recollection of such things. I am unsure of exactly how long it takes for bone to grow into the alveolar space once a tooth of that size is removed. So, please don't quote me on that.

11. ?

12. ?

13. ?

14. present-small filling

15. ?

16. ?

17. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted

18. present-small filling

19. present-large carries

20. present-large carries

21. present

22. present

23. present

24. present

25. present

26. present

27. present

28. present

29. present-small carries

30. present-good condition, except that the tooth had black discoloration indicative of a possible small carries

31. present-good condition

32. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted

Lion

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 06:14 PM

Lion, should I delete mine and then you can add your comments to yours?

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 06:24 PM

Hi Barb,
If we did post on the site you posted below it would have been quite sometime ago. Would you like to post a message about the ring on the site? It would be great if you could :)

Has anyone thought of posting the ring information on this site http://www.classringfinder.com/ ?

barb0301

01-13-2008, 06:38 PM

Hi Barb,
If we did post on the site you posted below it would have been quite sometime ago. Would you like to post a message about the ring on the site? It would be great if you could :)

I'll be happy to, is there anyone in particular that is main POC on this case?

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 07:01 PM

Barb,
We've kind of just provided our own contact information when we have posted messages, etc. We haven't had a main contact person as of yet. If you would like to use your own contact information to post the message that would be fine. If you would rather use someone elses you can PM me and I will give you my email. Thanks again for doing this! :)

barb0301

01-13-2008, 07:20 PM

Ok, the ring is now posted, and you can view it here: http://www.classringfinder.com/RingDetail.asp?RingID=8926

I used my contact info, so I'll let you know if I hear anything.

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 07:29 PM

Looks great Barb! Do let us know if you hear anything. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Ok, the ring is now posted, and you can view it here: http://www.classringfinder.com/RingDetail.asp?RingID=8926

I used my contact info, so I'll let you know if I hear anything.

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 08:27 PM

I have a question...How would you handle sending a letter to the family (husband) of a deceased 1975 REL-Houston HS class alumni? Would you just send out the same class letter that we are or should it be edited in some manner?

teonspaleprincess

01-13-2008, 09:04 PM

I think that it will be okay to send out the same one that we have been sending out. I don't think they would be offended.

LionRun

01-13-2008, 09:27 PM

Lion, should I delete mine and then you can add your comments to yours?

If you think it is best, sure. I will go and copy it and make sure that all of the info posts this time.

Lion

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 09:30 PM

Done deal :)

If you think it is best, sure. I will go and copy it and make sure that all of the info posts this time.

Lion

RKnowley

01-13-2008, 09:31 PM

Thanks Teons. I will do that then. :)

I think that it will be okay to send out the same one that we have been sending out. I don't think they would be offended.

LionRun

01-13-2008, 09:50 PM

I would send out the same letter, too RKnowley. We were careful in what words we chose initially for the letter, and I don't think it should offend the husband.

Lion

LionRun

01-13-2008, 09:51 PM

Ok, the ring is now posted, and you can view it here: http://www.classringfinder.com/RingDetail.asp?RingID=8926

I used my contact info, so I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Barb, welcome and thank you for posting Princess's ring info on that site:).

Lion

barb0301

01-14-2008, 01:06 AM

Barb, welcome and thank you for posting Princess's ring info on that site:).

Lion

Happy to help. I've watched this case on and off and never had much to contribute, you guys are so on top of it. Saw that site today and hope it might help. Will keep you posted if I hear anything. Thanks for the welcome Lion.

LionRun

01-14-2008, 01:30 AM

Barb, you have much to add. Right off the bat you found that site to put Princess's ring on. We welcome your input and any ideas or suggestions you may have):.

Lion

barb0301

01-14-2008, 02:53 AM

LionRun

01-14-2008, 03:13 AM

mwaaaaaahhhh - big kiss to ya Lion !! I'll read over the whole case and get caught up and then join in more regular. I spend so much of my time trying to find Beloved Doe and on the Riley Ann Sawyers case that I haven't had much time for others. I think it's time I "spread my wings" and you all seem to be a great group to work with.

Thanks so much for the wonderful welcome. I'll stick around.:crazy:

Thank you, barb:blowkiss:. We have a good group of people here who are doggedly determined and have really big hearts.

I understand what you mean about giving time to certain cases. I am committed to this case and a couple of others, although I read, care and post in many others. It would be great to have you here if you have some time to spare:).

Lion

RKnowley

01-14-2008, 06:20 PM

I'm wondering if we should edit the class letter a bit and add the URL to access the 1974 and 1975 yearbook photos. Maybe if those who we send out letters to were to view those photos it might spark something in their minds? Just a thought (I don't have many..LOL).

LionRun

01-14-2008, 09:08 PM

I think that is a great idea RKnowley! And, we may want to include that there is an updated, more accurate site for Princess on The Doe Network. what are your thoughts about that?

BTW, you have many, many good thoughts:). For some time when I was working two full time jobs and traveling back and forth while my mom was ill and then passed away, you were the rock and glue that helped hold this thread together. Other wonderful sleuthers took part and kept at it, but you were consistent and committed in a big way. Thank you so much for all that you do:blowkiss:.

Lion

LionRun

01-15-2008, 01:43 PM

Here is the link and updated version of Princess's page on The Doe Network.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/137uftx.html

The Doe Network:
Case File 137UFTX
http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX3.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX4.jpg
Reconstructions of Victim
Unidentified White / Mixed Female

The victim was discovered on September 10, 1990 in Brazoria County, Texas.
Skeletal Remains

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 17 - 21 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 4'11" - 5'3"; with a slight to medium build.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Two fractured ribs; and a "defect" on a bone beneath her left knee. The victim possibly had a tumor on her knee.
Other: Originally thought to be Hispanic, the new analysis indicates the young woman was White, with the probability of some Black traits. According to the forensic analysis, it is likely one parent or one grandparent was Black.
Dentals: Dental information available. There were several teeth with untreated carries, and two amalgam fillings. Noteworthy though, is that tooth #10, an upper left, lateral incisor, which is right next to her two front most teeth was surgically removed prior to death and the corresponding alveolar space was partially obliterated by mature bone.
DNA: IN CODIS
Jewelry: One pearl, beaded bracelet
Six rings,
One gold band ring with six clear stones
One silver band with a scroll design,
Two thin silver bands
One silver-colored ring with a turquoise horse or unicorn,
One 1975, size 9 1/2, Robert E. Lee, Houston, TX High School ring. This ring has a blue stone with a silver colored, inexpensive metal band. It is unknown whether or not there were ever engravings on the inner side of the ring's band. The ring was upsized twice, which would have removed evidence of previous engravings. However, it does have an inlaid, "L" which many students chose as an option that year that stands for the school mascot, Robert E. Lee himself.
Nickname: “Princess Blue”
http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX1.jpg http://doenetwork.org/cases/images/137UFTX2.jpg
Victim's Rings
Case History
The victim was located on a pile of debris at the end of a Brazoria County road (101) just east of Highway 288 inside the Manvel city limits on September 10, 1990.
The skeleton was found by a man who had pulled off the highway to relieve himself. He stepped behind a barricade and saw a skull in an old tire.
No purse, wallet, clothing or hair were located around the skeleton, six rings were on the fingers, and a bracelet around her wrist.
The company that made Robert E. Lee High School's (now Lee High School) rings doesn't have records from 1975. The Lee class of 1975 had about 300 girls. Authorities would like to hear from any of the girls who lost a ring or gave it to somebody else.
Toxicology tests yielded no trace of opiates in her bone marrow. However, it is unknown whether or not other drugs were present, tested for or could have been tested for.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
Manvel Police Department
Detective Sergeant Jay Coffman
281-489-1212
Email (jcoffman@manvelpd.org)
or
Brazoria County Sheriff's Office
Investigator Richard Rosser
281-756-2218
Email (richardr@brazoria-county.com)
or
Harris County Medical Examiner
713-796-9292
Or
Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse
800-346-3243
You may remain anonymous when submitting information.
Agency Case Number:
TXDPS U0310014
NCIC Number:
U-940003426 
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.
Source Information:
Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0310014)
Chron Com
My Fox Houston 6/7/07 (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=3427425&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)
TXDPS (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr060707.pdf)

RKnowley

01-15-2008, 04:00 PM

:blowkiss: Thank you Lion. I appreciate everything you have done also! Keep up the good work friend.

I have added the URL for Princess Blue's newest doenetwork information to the class alumni letter and will also add the URL for the yearbook photos to the letter also.

So far I think I have found contact information for 12 of the girls that were a junior in at REL-Houston in 1974 and wasn't in the 1975 yearbook as a senior. I sure hope we can track down more than that!

I think that is a great idea RKnowley! And, we may want to include that there is an updated, more accurate site for Princess on The Doe Network. what are your thoughts about that?

BTW, you have many, many good thoughts:). For some time when I was working two full time jobs and traveling back and forth while my mom was ill and then passed away, you were the rock and glue that helped hold this thread together. Other wonderful sleuthers took part and kept at it, but you were consistent and committed in a big way. Thank you so much for all that you do:blowkiss:.

Lion

LionRun

01-15-2008, 04:08 PM

Oh, that it sooo good, RKnowley! And thank you very, very much:blowkiss.

Lion

RKnowley

01-16-2008, 06:01 PM

As many of you are aware DNA comparisions were being ran to determine if Princess Blue was a match for Kimberly Shawn Cheatham. I was contacted by Detective Smith of the Dallas, TX PD and told that the DNA results came back and it was determined that there was no match.

LionRun

01-16-2008, 08:42 PM

Thank you, RKnowley. Onward to find Princess Blue's identity, and I hope and pray that Kimberly is one day found, too.

Lion

Jaded

01-19-2008, 02:29 AM

I was sad to hear that it wasn't Kimberly, for her mother's sake, but I'm glad we know for sure. Onward and upward.

sloane

01-21-2008, 10:51 AM

Hi Everyone!! :)
Thank you, RKnowley for posting that Cheatham has been formally ruled out as being a match by being compared through DNA. I, too, was disappointed that it didn't turn out to be a match, esp when the facial overlays were so striking. Nice job jaded, for all your work on those! BUT...the good news is that PB's skeletal remains have finally yielded a DNA profile and it was put into CODIS the end of 2007. As most of you know, that means that she has already been compared to all the profiles on file at the Center for Human ID. Now that she's in CODIS, as the cycles run through, she will be compared to EVERY profile there is! This is great and impt. progress...wonderful news and a big "YEA!!" and thanks to the invstgtr's and scientists!! So what this also means is that as we look for possible matches, if the MP write-up states that her DNA is already on file, then it likely isn't a match to PB, or the system would have hit on it already. This is prob the case w/ Teresa BYERS, if the info is correct that says her DNA is avail.
Thank you to all of you working on solving this mystery,

sloane

01-21-2008, 11:05 AM

Also, there seemed to be a little speculation on here as to whether PB was ever pregnant or had a child...someone also said something abt the bones not always showing signs of pregnancy or choildbirth, which is true. But sometimes they do. This most recent analysis (in Mar., '07) doesn't make any mention of signs on her bones of such a state, and they do,usually, if they see it. They will caveat it by saying there is a "chance" or a "likelihood" that she carried a pregnancy or bore a child in life, not "for certain," but I've seen them be correct on this in the past once a woman is ID'd and we find out the facts of her life. So my feeling is, PB either never did have a child, or if so, it didn't make itself evident on her bones.
Does this make sense?

MsRusty

01-21-2008, 10:56 PM

LionRun

01-22-2008, 02:11 AM

Sloane, welcome back, friend:blowkiss:. It is so nice to come on here and read a post (or two:D) from you! This is excellent news! I am so glad that a DNA profile was obtained from Princess and in turn entered into CODIS!

I will keep searching for possible matches, making a note of who's DNA is reported to be on file and who's is not.

Thank you for explaining further concerning whether or not Princess may or ma not have given birth. It is pretty much what I thought, but it helps to also hear it from you.

Lion

LionRun

01-22-2008, 02:15 AM

I'm sorry that I've been busy working and still have not read all the past threads yet. But while discussing the case with somebody over the weekend and mentioning the yearbook they suggested why not try to get in touch with any of the teachers and see if they recall any pregnant students. I don't know if back in '74-'75 they would have been allowed to remain in school, but I'm sure the teachers would have known about it. Has this been considered?

MsRusty, no worries:). We all have times where we are busy with families, work, and other aspects of our lives. I think your idea is a very good one! We can also simply ask them if they recall any students that might have been Princess on the off chance that Princess was actually one of the students.

Lion

Sable

01-22-2008, 11:25 AM

I will keep searching for possible matches, making a note of who's DNA is reported to be on file and who's is not.

I think making a note of the DNA status for potential matches is a good idea. I also believe we shouldn't rule possible matches out based on their DNA being entered into CODIS and not matching up with Princess Blue's DNA profile, because (correct me if I'm wrong) there have been cases where the DNA profile for a missing person didn't match up with the DNA profile for a John/Jane Doe, even though it was a match.

RKnowley

01-22-2008, 03:13 PM

I've already started (well, started on it yesterday..lol) on keeping a note of the DNA status of possible matches to Princess Blue.

I am working on a spreadsheet with the possible matches to Princess Blue on it. I am still adding to the spreadsheet and also trying to find out which of the ones listed do have DNA in CODIS.

Here is the link to the spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ppBnEW1OaxaVr_ASXq5wUFw. If anyone has any other possible matches they would like added to it please just let me know and I'd be more than glad to add them to the sheet. Also, if you know the DNA status of any of the ones listed I'd like to know so that can be added to the spreadsheet.

LionRun

01-22-2008, 03:22 PM

Hi RKnowley:). You are a step ahead! Thanks for the link!

Lion

RKnowley

01-25-2008, 04:50 PM

I'd like to revisit this lady as being a possible to Princess Blue. I can't find anywhere that says her DNA is in CODIS and so she may not have already been checked against Princess Blue's DNA.

She may be a couple years old and had a c-section scar (meaning she possibly carried a baby to full term). What do you think??

Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse Online Bulletin

Missing Person Details

Date Picture Updated: 10/15/2001
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/RKnowley/mallari_anna_jovita.jpg
Name: Anna Jovita Mallari
Case Number: M8903009
Case Type: Endangered - Foul Play Possible
Last Seen in: El Paso (El Paso County)
Last Seen on: 12/1/1988
Height: 5' 0 "
Weight: 115 lbs.
Age Missing: 24
Eye Color: Brown
Hair Color: Black
Date of Birth: 10/5/1964
Race: Other
Sex: Female
State Missing From: Texas
Country Missing From: USA
Circumstances: Ms. Mallari has a c-section scar on her abdomen. She was reported missing by her employer when she did not show up for work.

ETA: She is Asian (Filipina) according to her Charley Project Page here: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mallari_anna.html

RKnowley

01-25-2008, 05:57 PM

If I found the right Anna Jovita Mallari on ancestry.com it says she had a son born in August of 1988. If that is the correct one she would have went missing in December of the same year her son was born. :(

LionRun

01-26-2008, 03:52 AM

That is so sad that her son grew up without a mother. My daughter was born in 1988, and I cannot imagine how things would have been for her without a mom.

I have Anna on a list of possible matches from back in April. I remember her, and the only reason I think I put her aside was because like most of the others when didn't weigh near to 175 LB. But, we know now that the 175 LB thing turned out not to be fact. RKnowley, I agree that we should look more closely ate her. She may be Filipino, but in her picture she also seems to have possible African American traits, too.

IIRC, in the original ME's report the cheekbones were said to not have been prominent. I am having a heck of a time getting to that page for some reason, so I may be incorrect. That and that she was 24 when she disappeared are the only two things I can think of against her as being a possible match. But, they are not big issues to me, and I agree with yo that we may want to research her further.

Lion

RKnowley

01-26-2008, 03:16 PM

Right, I had Anna as a possible also way back when and so did somebodyelse way back when so that's why I said I wanted to "revisit" her as a possible for Princess Blue. I agree that it looks like she has african american traits and I swear I seen on one site it had her listed as Asian/African American/? but I can't find that site now..grrrr.

Princess Blue's autopsy report says this about her cheek bones:

"The cheekbones were not prominent" (just as you said). If you want my opinion (and even if you don't, lol) Princess Blue's cheek bones do look "prominent" in the sketch of her.

At this point I don't know what other research we can do to rule her out? The information available for her online is very limited.

LionRun

01-26-2008, 06:29 PM

Hmmm, so a number of us had Anna as a possible on our own, "missing" lists. I would like to find out more, and the only way might be track down a number in El Paso of someone who might be able and willing to research Anna's case. The good thing is that Princess Blue has dentals and DNA on file. I don't know if they have either for Anna, though.

Lion

RKnowley

01-26-2008, 11:05 PM

El Paso is about 761 miles from Manvel, Texas. Quite a ways. It would take over 10 hours to get there..hmmm.

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 01:49 AM

This was posted under the Missing but Not Forgotten Forum:

rpm77 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=25302) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2

Princess Blue
I never heard of Princess Blue but I just looked her up- this was not Elisa. She is thought to be part African American and white either one parent or grandparent of the victim. ELisa was niether part African or caucasion her last name Roberson was my dad's name, he adopted her when she was a baby. The victim had six rings none of which belonged to Elisa.

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 02:06 AM

LionRun

01-27-2008, 03:31 AM

El Paso is about 761 miles from Manvel, Texas. Quite a ways. It would take over 10 hours to get there..hmmm.

I thought about that, too. It would be more likely that Princess came from, was visiting, or had ties to the Houston area. The ring is from the Houston area, and her body was found in the Houston area. But, I'll keep her on my good old list for now until we can uncover more about Anna. A woman named Sandy who was from Ohio was finally identified as a UID in New Mexico. So I guess anything is possible.

Lion

LionRun

01-27-2008, 03:37 AM

Name: Debra Kay Stewart
Case Number: M0612010
Case Type: Endangered - Foul Play Possible
Last Seen in: Austin (Travis County)
Last Seen on: 5/21/1976
Height: 5' 1 "
Weight: 130 lbs.
Age Missing: 19
Eye Color: Brown
Hair Color: Black
Date of Birth: 9/5/1956
Race: Black
Sex: Female
State Missing From: Texas
Country Missing From: USA
Circumstances: Ms. Stewart has a scar on one breast. She was last seen wearing blue patchwork jeans, a blue long sleeved blouse with white stitching, a blue bandana, a wide belt and brown shoes. Her vehicle was recovered in Austin.

Oh my gosh, Debra was so pretty. It is sad to see so many young people who seem to disappear without a trace. I see a possible resemblance to Princess's recon. Debra is black, but she has Caucasian features. I think it is possible. This is in my neck of the woods, but this is the first I have heard about her. I wonder if we can find out anything else about her.

Lion

LionRun

01-27-2008, 04:09 AM

LionRun

01-27-2008, 04:35 AM

One thing that tends to rule out (but not fully, perhaps) Princess as being Debra is that Princess's left upper tooth near to the front was missing.

From the 1990 autopsy report: Tooth 10 was surgically absent and the corresponding alveolar space partially obliterated by mature bone.

For the alveolar space to be partially obliterated by mature bone the tooth was removed some time prior to her death. I don't know how long that takes, but I imagine it may take a few months. Don't quote me on that, though.

On one of the missing sites (either the tx dps, or The Charley Project) under the picture it is notes that it is from circa 1976. So, either Debra lost her tooth fairly shortly after that pic was taken or it can't be her. I thought, what if she ran away and lost a tooth later on? But, i don't think she ran away. On The Doe Network page

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2159dftx.html

it states the Debra left Sears where she worked, and it stated that she was a communications student. She had an apartment and a car. her car was found abandoned two days after her disappearance. She had too many reasons not to run away, most likely. She was making a life for herself with a job and school. And, she left her car behind.

I don't think Debra is Princess, but if anyone can find out anything more about her that indicates differently, I am open minded. Somewhere someone might be missing Princess, and I hope so much that Princess is one day identified.

Lion

LionRun

01-27-2008, 04:21 PM

Deleted my last message until I can think about it some more, lol!

Well, darn. No I am in suspense as I never got to see that message:D.

Lion

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 04:23 PM

LOL! Now that I have thought about it I should have just left it. I didn't think it made any sense so I deleted and then thought about it and now I realize it did make sense :waitasec:

Well, darn. No I am in suspense as I never got to see that message:D.

Lion

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 04:30 PM

I'm not completely ruling Debra out based on the fact that the picture on her Charley Project page says it was circa 1976. I know for a fact that those estimates such as circa 1976 doesn't mean it was taken that exact year. For example on Kim Cheatham's Charley Project page it has 3 images of her and it says circa 1989 under them. Well, I know for a fact that one of those photos was taken in 1987. It is pretty easy to estimate when the 1987 photo of Kim was taken because it was at her nephew's first birthday party. It's possible the estimate on Debra Kay Stewart's page is off a couple years. A lot of times pictures are taken and there isn't a notation on the back that says what year it was taken so family members are left having to decide when exactly a photo was taken. Sometimes that can be off a couple of years.

I don't think Debra ran away but something happened to her. Her pages say foul play suspected and do not suggest that she ran away somewhere.

So, I'm keeping Debra as a possible for now until it can be proven some other way that she is no longer a possible.

LionRun

01-27-2008, 04:40 PM

Me too, RKnowley. That picture of Debra could have been taken a significant time prior to her disappearance. When I take a look at a possible match I always try to rule that person out or in. The missing tooth is just something to note. I have a feeling that Debra isn't Princess, but feelings aren't facts. I am still keeping her as a possible match in my mind along with Anna and others.

Lion

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 04:48 PM

I'd like to figure out how to find out if all these possibles have their DNA in CODIS and if they don't then find out a way to have their families contacted and get them to submit DNA to be checked against all UID's with their DNA available. It seems like with most the possibles that it doesn't list whether DNA is available or not.

I really don't think that Debra is Princess Blue either but without knowing her dentals or having her DNA to check against Princess Blue's it's impossible to rule her out completely.

---

Me too, RKnowley. That picture of Debra could have been taken a significant time prior to her disappearance. When I take a look at a possible match I always try to rule that person out or in. The missing tooth is just something to note. I have a feeling that Debra isn't Princess, but feelings aren't facts. I am still keeping her as a possible match in my mind along with Anna and others.

Lion

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 04:57 PM

I also hope that Elisa is found one day too. Such a hard thing for a family to have to go through :(

What a dedicated sister to be searching for all this time for Elisa. I hope and pray that Elisa is one day found. Thank you for letting us know, RKnowley:blowkiss:.

Lion

LionRun

01-27-2008, 05:07 PM

I'd like to figure out how to find out if all these possibles have their DNA in CODIS and if they don't then find out a way to have their families contacted and get them to submit DNA to be checked against all UID's with their DNA available. It seems like with most the possibles that it doesn't list whether DNA is available or not.

I really don't think that Debra is Princess Blue either but without knowing her dentals or having her DNA to check against Princess Blue's it's impossible to rule her out completely.

---

Do you know if there is one contact we can find to refer families of the missing to get their DNA into CODIS? I wonder if Kelly can help us with this. I am thinking about referring all families I come across to do this if it hasn't already been done.

Lion

RKnowley

01-27-2008, 07:20 PM

There's another gal who went missing in Austin, Texas 10 days after Debra Kay Stewart went missing. I wonder if the cases are connected? I will have to research that one. I know the girl below is most likely too tall to be Princess Blue but thought it was interesting the 2 (Debra & Jennifer) went missing at around the same time. It looks like Jennifer disappeared on her birthday :(

Name: Jennifer Joyce Barton
AKA: J.J. Barton
Case Number: M9811002
Case Type: Endangered - Foul Play Possible
Last Seen in: Austin (Travis County)
Last Seen on: 5/31/1976
Height: 5' 7 "
Weight: 120 lbs.
Age Missing: 20
Eye Color: Brown
Hair Color: Brown
Date of Birth: 5/31/1955
Race: Black
Sex: Female
State Missing From: Texas
Country Missing From: USA
Circumstances: Ms. Barton has a light and freckled complexion and she has a scar on the calf of her right leg. She was last seen wearing a burgandy body suit, blue jeans and sandals.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M1/6/200312:36:03PM'

From her doenetwork information:
Circumstances of Disappearance
On the day Barton disappeared, she and a friend were headed up 11th Street to see a movie. She was short of cash and stopped at a bar to get money from friends. She met two men in the bar and later left in their van with California license plates.
A dropout from Reagan High School, Barton had a record of prostitution arrests. Friends said she had appeared distraught after a friend was killed in February, and her apartment was broken into shortly afterward.
Foul play is possible.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/535dftx.html

LionRun

01-28-2008, 02:00 AM

Good question as to whether or not the two cases are related. I don't see anything that jumps out at me. I think Jennifer's fate may have had something to do with leaving with the two men in a van with CA plates. Debra disappeared possibly where her car was found in south Austin. The areas are fairly near to each other. Their lifestyles seemed to be different, but we know little about the person(s) who may have been responsible for both women's' fate. I imagine it is possible that Jennifer ran away and no immediate harm came to her. But, she lived a life of risk so she was vulnerable.

I didn't live in TX then, so I don't have any recollections of young girls'/women's' disappearances. And, I don't recall ever hearing any buzz about a possible serial killer. Austin is a fair size city especially if you include the metro area, yet we don't have a lot of unexplained disappearances. I am curious now, though.

Lion

RKnowley

01-29-2008, 10:58 PM

Would like some thoughts on this lady. Is she a possible for Princess Blue? She is listed as bi-racial black/white/hispanic. I wonder how we could find out what kind of ring she wore on her right hand (3rd finger)?

Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron
Missing since January 1, 1979 from Del Valle, Travis County, Texas.
Classification: Endangered Missing

Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: January 31, 1956
Age at Time of Disappearance: 23 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3"; 120-130 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Bi-racial female (Black/White/Hispanic). Brown hair; hazel/brown eyes. Petite frame.
Jewelry: Wore a ring on the right hand 3rd finger
Dentals: Not available

Circumstances of Disappearance
Davis-Herron was last seen heading down to Tex Golden Nugget, a Motel in the neighborhood were she worked.
Some friends saw her driving in that direction and she blew her horn at them and waved. She has never been seen again.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Travis County Sheriff's Department
Detective Jim Anderson
512-854-3234
Agency Case Number: 04-36882 NCIC Number: M-056167540
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

Source: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1506dftx.html

LionRun

01-29-2008, 11:28 PM

I think it is possible, but I don't think that Princess's recon resembles Pinkie. I have seen recons side by side with missing persons once they have been found, and sometimes the recons prove to have been way off.

Lion

RKnowley

01-30-2008, 12:22 AM

Wow, Pinkie Mae DAVIS was only 14 yrs old when she got married in 1970 to HERRON. He was 29 yrs old.

ETA: They divorced in 1975 and at that time had 2 children.

RKnowley

01-31-2008, 12:38 AM

I emailed a very prominent forensic artist (she is the one who did the drawing of 'Baby Grace' AKA Riley Sawyers found in Galveston, Texas) about Princess Blue's case and asked her "Why are sketches sometimes done and not the reconstructions out of clay?" and also asked her "Do you feel that a facial reconstruction out of clay would have the best results in indentifying Princess Blue?"

This was her response:

I have had the best results doing reconstructions by simply drawing from the skull, just as was done with this case. The reason I would draw the reconstruction would not be the cost, or the extra supplies and time (which are considerable more). All us forensic artists would walk a hundred miles (with breaks and food) or whatever if it would solve some of these cases. but like I said, my absolute best results were done by drawing, as was done for this case (Princess Blue's case). If you remember the Baby Grace case in Galveston, I did that reconstruction, and it was a drawing.

We all wish this case would get solved, the girl seems so young and beautiful (She is talking about Princess Blue's case here).

RKnowley

02-08-2008, 08:11 PM

bumping for Princess Blue

LionRun

02-09-2008, 05:25 AM

sloane

02-09-2008, 11:45 AM

Do you know if there is one contact we can find to refer families of the missing to get their DNA into CODIS? I wonder if Kelly can help us with this. I am thinking about referring all families I come across to do this if it hasn't already been done.

Lion
HI Lion-
Yes, the agency that handles the familial reference samples with regard to missing persons cases is the same lab we have been mentioning regarding comparing Princess Blue with Cheatham and Jessie Foster with Princess Lavender...The Univ. of North TX's Health Science Center in Ft. Worth - Human Identity Lab. This is a federally funded facility and handles cases from all over the country, if not internationally as well, not just TX cases. The kits to obtain the buccal swabs from family members are free to LE and include a "pedigree chart," of sorts, so the scientisits understand exactly how the persons concerned are related to one another. The family members must have LE obtain the sample from them and then LE simply mails it in to the Lab, with associated paperwk. abt the MP case. The whole process is FREE:woohoo: !! The familial reference samples are first compared with everythg in the Lab's system (meaning, all UID remains from which they have obtained a DNA profile in the past). If there is no match, the samples are then uploaded into the state, national and intrntn'l levels, to be periodically checked against all other entries from other sources, like CODIS. Important to note - the fam. refnc. smpls. ARE NOT checked against criminal CODIS databases, they are only used in regard to identification for unknown persons. In short, if a fam. mbr. is hesitant to give their DNA bec. they are afraid they might be linked to a crime in their past, they don't have to be concerned w/ that. The Lab is concerned with solvg UID and MP cases solely. Does this make sense?
So, if there are family members of MP out there, and they have never been requested to give a DNA sample for reference, they should contact the LE involved w their case and ask that this process be started. There is a chance that LE may not even know this opportunity exists. The Lab is trying to start educatg agencies abt this service - literally travlg, puttg on lectures, etc. to "get the word out." But if the LE involved doesn't know what to do, they can contact the Lab themselves, or the TXMPCH and they will walk them through it. Did I mention the whole process is FREE??!

Hope this helps,

Sable

02-12-2008, 11:08 AM

I'm not posting this woman as a possible match to Princess Blue because the age and the date of disappearance are quite a bit off, but maybe there could be some kind of familial relation between her and Princess Blue?

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200705243S

I just can't get over how much she looks like the recon.

RKnowley

02-13-2008, 07:16 PM

Can WE really make a difference?

OK, I'm a little bummed out lately regarding Princess Blue's case. We can make suggestions on who might be a possible for Princess Blue but that is about all we can do.

Right now, I'm interested in Anna Jovita Mallari and Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron (both were living in the Austin, TX area when they disappeared)being possibles for Princess Blue. Do we make these suggestions to LE or just post them here and leave it at that? I don't know if these ladies have any connections to Houston NOR do I know how we can find that out. I'm sure we could probably locate family members but I've been told that is a NO NO too. So what do we do??

I guess I am about ready to call it quits and let things fall where they will. I just don't see how it really makes any difference?? :boohoo:

LionRun

02-13-2008, 07:24 PM

RKnowley, please don't give up just yet, friend. Perhaps we can gather a few possibles together and send all of their info to LE. I see nothing wrong with researching family members so long as we are careful as to what we say to them. And, you always are careful and sensitive with what you say and how you say it. Since we can't rule out Annie or Pinkie, I think we should send them in as possibles. Maybe LE has more on them to rule them in or out.

Lion

RKnowley

02-14-2008, 05:40 PM

Hi Sloane!

Thank you very much for this information regarding the process of getting DNA taken for family members of the missing & how it gets entered into CODIS.

Is there any way (that you know of) that the average joe (like myself) can check to see if a missing persons DNA is already in CODIS or if LE has tried to make contact with that person's family to try and collect DNA from them to be entered into CODIS? Right now I would really like to find out if Anna (Ana) Jovita Mallari's http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M10/15/20014:11:27PM'& Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron's http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M11/21/20064:12:03PM'& Angela Phillips DNA http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M9/29/20052:17:30PM'is already in CODIS or if any family members have been contacted to submit their DNA?

I would hate to send out a letter to family members asking for them to contact LE about having their DNA taken if LE has already been in contact in the past.

Thanks!

HI Lion-
Yes, the agency that handles the familial reference samples with regard to missing persons cases is the same lab we have been mentioning regarding comparing Princess Blue with Cheatham and Jessie Foster with Princess Lavender...The Univ. of North TX's Health Science Center in Ft. Worth - Human Identity Lab. This is a federally funded facility and handles cases from all over the country, if not internationally as well, not just TX cases. The kits to obtain the buccal swabs from family members are free to LE and include a "pedigree chart," of sorts, so the scientisits understand exactly how the persons concerned are related to one another. The family members must have LE obtain the sample from them and then LE simply mails it in to the Lab, with associated paperwk. abt the MP case. The whole process is FREE:woohoo: !! The familial reference samples are first compared with everythg in the Lab's system (meaning, all UID remains from which they have obtained a DNA profile in the past). If there is no match, the samples are then uploaded into the state, national and intrntn'l levels, to be periodically checked against all other entries from other sources, like CODIS. Important to note - the fam. refnc. smpls. ARE NOT checked against criminal CODIS databases, they are only used in regard to identification for unknown persons. In short, if a fam. mbr. is hesitant to give their DNA bec. they are afraid they might be linked to a crime in their past, they don't have to be concerned w/ that. The Lab is concerned with solvg UID and MP cases solely. Does this make sense?
So, if there are family members of MP out there, and they have never been requested to give a DNA sample for reference, they should contact the LE involved w their case and ask that this process be started. There is a chance that LE may not even know this opportunity exists. The Lab is trying to start educatg agencies abt this service - literally travlg, puttg on lectures, etc. to "get the word out." But if the LE involved doesn't know what to do, they can contact the Lab themselves, or the TXMPCH and they will walk them through it. Did I mention the whole process is FREE??!

Hope this helps,

sloane

02-16-2008, 09:40 PM

Hi there RKnowley! Good to see you didn't give up!! I know it can be frustrating and it's hard to keep waiting for answers, but you have too much to offer to not be involved ... and btw, there's nothing "average Joe" abt you!
To try to answer your ?s...I don't know that a person not involved in the invstgtn. or a person directly involved with the MP (like a family mbr) could just find out such info. as you asked above. I'm trying to imagine what I would say to a stranger if my phone just rang one day and a person on the other end (albeit a NICE person!!) just started wanting to know what had been done in an invstgtn....I think the more fruitful route might be to have a family member do the asking of the LE involved in their case. And of course, I know not every family member or even all LE agencies know that this fam. refnc. DNA sample is a resource avail. to them. The Lab is trying to get more info. out abt that...the quicker, the better, imo...

sloane

RKnowley

02-16-2008, 10:00 PM

Hi Sloane,

I think what I meant is we have the scenario that a "Jane Doe" was found, in this case Princess Blue. Then we have missing persons in TX who may fit Princess Blue's profile. Does LE contact family members of those missing persons and ask them to submit their DNA to see if there might be a match?

If LE doesn't do so, then I am all for sending a letter out to the family of the missing person and telling them the procedure to have their DNA taken and entered into CODIS. I just wouldn't want to duplicate something LE has already done.

LionRun

02-16-2008, 10:01 PM

RKnowley, what sloane said is true. You are far from the average Joe. You are dedicated, intelligent, and you think like an investigator. I am glad to know and work with you on the three cases we work on together and on any case in the future, my friend:blowkiss:.

Sloane, it is so good to hear from you:blowkiss:. Thank you again for your good sense and information.

Lion

sloane

02-16-2008, 10:43 PM

Awww...thanks, Lion! :)

OK, RK...I understand what you mean more now...sadly, no, I don't think it is COMMON practice YET, and I stress the word YET, for LE invstgtg MPs to just get a standard sample on file of every MP's case's family members' DNA. BUT...it should be, and there are many diligent, dedicated and good-hearted people working to make that change. I think it won't be long before that will be a "check-off box" so-to-speak, on the list of what to do when invstgtg a MP. It seems incredulous to some of us that it isn't already in place, but change comes abt slowly and mis-info. can happen easily, as we've seen in the case of the someone posting that PLav was ID'd as someone out of San Antonio, TX. That isn't even close to true, but yet once it's posted on the Net, off it goes, into the black hole of mis-information.
If it helps make anyone feel any better I know of one LE agency that has over 100 MP cases from over the decades, and they did not know abt getting familial refnc samples. Since they found out, they started a "task force," rounded up a bunch of kits from the Lab, and have had a couple of detcv's. addressing EVERY case to update it and go to the homes to get the cheek swab. Cool, yes? I was so proud of them! So yes, WE CAN make a difference, in the owrds of John Walsh! :)

XcomSquaddie

02-17-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by RKnowley:
Can WE really make a difference?
OK, I'm a little bummed out lately regarding Princess Blue's case. We can make suggestions on who might be a possible for Princess Blue but that is about all we can do.

Yes. All you can do is suggest. Unless you are LE or retired LE you can not work on the case. You will not get access to the entire casefile, such as hold-back information and other potentially vital info. You won't have names of witnesses or family members to aid in the investigation. Even if you have a PI license you will not have all this data.

However all that does not mean you can not do anything.

Do we make these suggestions to LE or just post them here and leave it at that?

Posting them here is good for several reasons. You can discuss the case with other people like yourselves and analyze the information you do have. Multiple investigators are better than one investigator.

Only posting your suggestions here is bad. Only posting here is the equivalent of standing on your front porch and reading your suggestion aloud. The chances of anyone connected to the investigation hearing you are nil.

I'm sure we could probably locate family members but I've been told that is a NO NO too. So what do we do?? Do not contact family members unless they have indicated publicly that they wish to be contacted.

I guess I am about ready to call it quits and let things fall where they will. I just don't see how it really makes any difference?? :boohoo:

Most police departments are overworked and understaffed. This is especially true in major cities. The manpower will never be allocated to solve thirty year old cold cases when crimes from last week still need to be investigated.

No law enforcement officers will investigate Princess Blue unless YOU show them something to investigate.

Show them your tips, clues, guesses and suggestions.

Contact the LE in charge of the investigation originally. Make up a data sheet of the crime and your tips and suggestions. Do it as professionally as possible. Cite everything.

Contact at least three newstations, newspapers, etc. in the area of the crime. Give them all copies of your data sheet. Suggest that they run the story as a human-interest thing. Ask them to keep the story on file for times when news is slow.

As a note. There are many times when there are no "big" stories going on. No wars, bombs, car accidents, celebrity news, etc. This is when the news stations hit their "filler" stories. Unsolved crimes and mysteries resonate. They catch the imagination. They tug at your heartstrings. News stations love to run stuff like that. Now you can get reporters and journalists involved. They can shame the police and LE into actually working on the case.

I just don't see how it really makes any difference??

Princess Blue has been dead for decades. She lost her life, her future and even her name. She has been forgotten. Unless people remember, she will always remain unknown and unidentified.

People like you are the only chance she has of being identified.

RKnowley

02-17-2008, 05:09 PM

RKnowley

02-17-2008, 05:48 PM

ty Lion for your kind words :) I have very much enjoyed working with you on the 3 cases we are both involved in. I hope we can find a resolution to those cases as well as many others in the future.

RKnowley, what sloane said is true. You are far from the average Joe. You are dedicated, intelligent, and you think like an investigator. I am glad to know and work with you on the three cases we work on together and on any case in the future, my friend:blowkiss:.

Sloane, it is so good to hear from you:blowkiss:. Thank you again for your good sense and information.

Lion

XcomSquaddie

02-18-2008, 08:36 AM

Xcom,

Thank you for your post. Have you read through all of Princess Blue's threads to see exactly what has been done in order to try and identify Princess Blue? Media has been contacted and they did publish stories, hundreds of 1975 Robert E Lee High School Class alumni were sent letters, LE has been contacted (the original LE on this case), posts have been posted on the internet about Princess Blue, myspace pages have been made, etc.

Right now though, it just seems like we are posting possibles for Princess Blue and not doing anything to try and rule them in or out. With a lot of these cases there is not much to go on available to us.

No, I have not read all of the threads. I was just offering suggestions based on what I have considered doing myself. Have you forwarded your suggestions to the appropriate LE?

As far as ruling anyone out, I don't think anybody can do that except LE and maybe DNA testing.

I myself disagree that we should not contact family members of a missing person to try and find out more about that missing person and to also see if they will submit a DNA sample to add to CODIS. I have found that most family members are glad to be contacted about their loved one & that that person has not been forgotten.

I do agree however that a missing persons family should not be contacted and told something like "Hey, I think this so and so UID may be a match to your loved one." It is not up to us to tell them something like that.

You are right.

Anyhow, sometimes it does seem hopeless that even after all we have done there is still no answer to "Who is Princess Blue?"

I just need to take some time to regroup and decide what is the next best step to take.

Maybe you could contact the LE and ask them for suggestions. After all, you're not trying to solve the case, you're focusing on ID'ing the victim.

Anyway, I apologize if I was (or am) suggesting things you've already done. It says a great deal that you are willing to invest time and energy to help a total stranger who's been dead and forgotten for years.

It's not the success or failure that counts. It's the effort made in the attempt.

RKnowley

02-18-2008, 05:54 PM

No need to apologize about anything. I was just wondering if you had read the threads and knew of the things we had tried already as you had some good suggestions and it would be great if you wanted to help out in the search for Princess Blue's identity. The more heads working on this the better! Thanks again for your input!

Anyway, I apologize if I was (or am) suggesting things you've already done. It says a great deal that you are willing to invest time and energy to help a total stranger who's been dead and forgotten for years.

It's not the success or failure that counts. It's the effort made in the attempt.

RKnowley

02-20-2008, 12:12 AM

I sent an email off today to the cold case detective in charge of Pinkie's case. I asked him if he could tell us if Pinkie's DNA was in CODIS and also asked if it were noted anywhere what kind of ring Pinkie wore on her right hand, 3rd finger. I also asked if there were any other identifiers listed in Pinkie's records that may help rule Pinkie out as being Princess Blue. I sent all of Pinkie's doenetwork information and Princess Blue's information in the email. I will let you know if I hear back from him.

Would like some thoughts on this lady. Is she a possible for Princess Blue? She is listed as bi-racial black/white/hispanic. I wonder how we could find out what kind of ring she wore on her right hand (3rd finger)?

Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron
Missing since January 1, 1979 from Del Valle, Travis County, Texas.
Classification: Endangered Missing

Vital Statistics

Date Of Birth: January 31, 1956
Age at Time of Disappearance: 23 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3"; 120-130 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Bi-racial female (Black/White/Hispanic). Brown hair; hazel/brown eyes. Petite frame.
Jewelry: Wore a ring on the right hand 3rd finger
Dentals: Not available

Circumstances of Disappearance
Davis-Herron was last seen heading down to Tex Golden Nugget, a Motel in the neighborhood were she worked.
Some friends saw her driving in that direction and she blew her horn at them and waved. She has never been seen again.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Travis County Sheriff's Department
Detective Jim Anderson
512-854-3234
Agency Case Number: 04-36882 NCIC Number: M-056167540
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

Source: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1506dftx.html

LionRun

02-20-2008, 12:20 AM

Good deal, RKnowley! Thank you!

Lion

Jaded

02-20-2008, 01:31 PM

Should we send an email off to all of the investigators in the missing persons cases, rather than sending to Sgt. Coffman asking if Princess Blue could be a possible, and also inquiring if the familial samples have been obtained? Maybe put the information into the email...just shooting out ideas here.

Jaded

02-20-2008, 01:40 PM

http://www.relee-houston-74.com/pages/1/index.htm

Found that and sent an email off to the members listed asking for their assistance.

RKnowley

02-20-2008, 09:17 PM

I drafted up a letter to send to family members of the missing if their DNA is not already in CODIS.

I could post it it at SKM as a .doc and .pdf if anybody is interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the contents of the letter:

Date:

Dear Family Member of Missing Person _________________________________;

I am from the internet communities websleuths.com & someoneknowsme.com. Our purpose is to help in identifying unidentified remains and assist in missing person’s cases.

My purpose in contacting you today is to find out if your missing loved one's DNA has been entered into CODIS (Combined DNA Index System). If it has not, you as a family member could have your DNA taken and have it entered into CODIS FREE of charge to you.

The procedure for getting your DNA taken and having it entered into CODIS is really quite simple, just contact the law enforcement agency involved with your missing persons case and request they take a DNA sample for reference. DNA samples must be taken by law enforcement; you cannot take samples and submit them yourself.

The law enforcement agency can then obtain a free kit to get a buccal (inside the cheek) swab from family members. The kit also includes a "pedigree chart" of sorts, so the scientists understand exactly how the family members are related to missing person. Then law enforcement simply mails the kit to the Human Identity Lab at The University of North Texas Health Science Center in Ft. Worth, TX, with associated paperwork about the missing person’s case. If the law enforcement agency involved doesn't know what to do, they can contact the Human Identity Lab or the Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse, and experts there will walk the law enforcement agency through the simple process.

The familial reference samples are entered into CODIS & are first compared with everything in the Lab's system (meaning, all unidentified human remains from which they have obtained a DNA profile in the past). If there is no match, the samples are then uploaded to the state, national and international levels, to be periodically checked against all other entries from other sources, such as CODIS.

Important to note - the familial reference samples ARE NOT checked against criminal CODIS databases, they are only used in regard to identification for unknown persons. If a family member is hesitant to give their DNA because they are afraid they might be linked to a crime in their past, they don't have to be concerned with that. The Lab is only concerned with solving unidentified remains and missing persons cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this information when contacting law enforcement involved in your case:

Missing Person’s Name:_____________________________________________ _______

Missing Person Case #_________________________________________________

Law Enforcement Handling Case: __________________________________________________ __

Law Enforcement Phone #______________________________________________

Should we send an email off to all of the investigators in the missing persons cases, rather than sending to Sgt. Coffman asking if Princess Blue could be a possible, and also inquiring if the familial samples have been obtained? Maybe put the information into the email...just shooting out ideas here.

RKnowley

02-20-2008, 09:24 PM

************************************************** ************************************************** ***********

Thank you for inquiring about Pinkie and doing some research on your own. Back in June of last year I got the info on the unidentified case out of Brazoria, Texas. At the time the DNA from Pinkie's family hadn't been uploaded and wasn't until October of last year. We got no hits as of yet. Not sure what the ring looked like. This is a very difficult case because she wasn't reported missing until 2004. Hopefully one day we will get a CODIS hit.

Thanks again, Jim

Detective Jim Anderson
Major Crimes Division
Travis County Sheriff's Department
Office - 512-854-3237
Fax - 512-854-4719

LionRun

02-20-2008, 09:42 PM

Beautiful, beautiful job RKnowley! Thank you very much! And, thank you for the update from Detective Anderson concerning Pinkie.

LE all around the country often don't seem to have the time to do all they would like to do concerning getting the family's of the missing/possible UID's into CODIS. This is one area where I believe we can help. I think it is important how these families are approached, and they must be approached tactfully, reasonably, and with sensitivity. But, that is the way that you do approach folks, and I try to do the same. I bet that if more families had their DNA in the data banks there would be an increase in the number of matches made.

Lion

RKnowley

02-20-2008, 09:50 PM

LionRun

02-20-2008, 10:17 PM

RKnowley, I also think that a very important part of the circumstances behind Pinkie's disappearance is missing. Twenty five years before she was reported missing? Who reported her missing, I wonder. Why didn't the husband report her missing all those years ago? Why didn't a family member, friend, coworker, or anyone report her missing all those years ago? This is very unusual.

Lion

RKnowley

02-21-2008, 01:48 AM

I just sent an email off to Detective Anderson and asked him if he could tell us if Debra Kay Stewart's & Jennifer Joyce Barton's DNA is in CODIS. I will post what I find out.

RKnowley

02-21-2008, 02:24 AM

Lion, I SO agree with you that I bet there would be a big increase in the number of unidentified being identified if family members had their DNA entered into CODIS. I think this is something we could make a big difference in.

You are right that we need to do this with great sensitivity in regards to the family members of the missing. I would never want to hurt or upset any of them. They have been through enough already. I would really like to help & assist them all that I can.

Beautiful, beautiful job RKnowley! Thank you very much! And, thank you for the update from Detective Anderson concerning Pinkie.

LE all around the country often don't seem to have the time to do all they would like to do concerning getting the family's of the missing/possible UID's into CODIS. This is one area where I believe we can help. I think it is important how these families are approached, and they must be approached tactfully, reasonably, and with sensitivity. But, that is the way that you do approach folks, and I try to do the same. I bet that if more families had their DNA in the data banks there would be an increase in the number of matches made.

Lion

Jaded

02-21-2008, 02:05 PM

I am still sitting here and wondering under what conditions did Pinkie go missing. She went missing in 1979 (this was the time she was last seen). She wasn't reported missing until 2004. Could someone actually go missing all that time and nobody notices? Pinkie had 2 young daughters (8 & 9 years old) at the time she went missing. Did her ex not notice she was missing?? It just boggles my mind! Something ain't right :confused: Makes me sad

It really does make you wonder why someone wouldn't report her in all that time. I know that not everyone has what most would perceive as "normal" family social dynamics (PFFFT - ask me about MY insane family LOL) but for 25 years?

Is there a contact person we can direct LE to in order to obtain these kits? I have a police dept. in IL that I would like to pass the info along to.

XcomSquaddie

02-21-2008, 02:44 PM

You are right that we need to do this with great sensitivity in regards to the family members of the missing. I would never want to hurt or upset any of them. They have been through enough already. I would really like to help & assist them all that I can.

I've read the letter in your earlier post. I don't see anything that would offend anyone. It sounded both helpful and compassionate.

After reading the first three threads on this case, I have to say that I'm very impressed with the amount of work you all have done. It's one thing to sit around and chat about crimes and playing armchair detective. But there are posters here that have moved beyond that and actually contributed towards solving cases.

For what it's worth, you have my respect.

RKnowley

02-21-2008, 03:30 PM

Maybe for the Illinois area you could try contacting the Illinois State Police Forensic Science Lab and see if there is a specific person that LE could contact to obtain the DNA kit.

Also, on the list below there are a few labs in the Illinois area you could refer LE to.

http://www.forquality.org/fqs_I_Labs.htm

Is there a contact person we can direct LE to in order to obtain these kits? I have a police dept. in IL that I would like to pass the info along to.

LionRun

02-21-2008, 03:49 PM

I've read the letter in your earlier post. I don't see anything that would offend anyone. It sounded both helpful and compassionate.

After reading the first three threads on this case, I have to say that I'm very impressed with the amount of work you all have done. It's one thing to sit around and chat about crimes and playing armchair detective. But there are posters here that have moved beyond that and actually contributed towards solving cases.

For what it's worth, you have my respect.

Thank you XcomSquaddie:). That was what we wanted to do. We want to be part of the solution to this tragic case.

Lion

RKnowley

02-21-2008, 06:23 PM

Thank you very much Xcom for your comments. We have been working hard on this one. Hopefully someday we will get her case solved.

RKnowley

02-21-2008, 10:47 PM

I just sent an email off to the El Paso, Texas Police Department regarding Anna's case. Will post what I find out.

I'd like to revisit this lady as being a possible to Princess Blue. I can't find anywhere that says her DNA is in CODIS and so she may not have already been checked against Princess Blue's DNA.

She may be a couple years old and had a c-section scar (meaning she possibly carried a baby to full term). What do you think??

Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse Online Bulletin

Missing Person Details

Date Picture Updated: 10/15/2001
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/RKnowley/mallari_anna_jovita.jpg
Name: Anna Jovita Mallari
Case Number: M8903009
Case Type: Endangered - Foul Play Possible
Last Seen in: El Paso (El Paso County)
Last Seen on: 12/1/1988
Height: 5' 0 "
Weight: 115 lbs.
Age Missing: 24
Eye Color: Brown
Hair Color: Black
Date of Birth: 10/5/1964
Race: Other
Sex: Female
State Missing From: Texas
Country Missing From: USA
Circumstances: Ms. Mallari has a c-section scar on her abdomen. She was reported missing by her employer when she did not show up for work.

ETA: She is Asian (Filipina) according to her Charley Project Page here: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mallari_anna.html

Sable

02-28-2008, 05:07 PM

Possible?
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/983dfca.html

The Doe Network:
Case File 983DFCA

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/MMancia.jpg
Mancia, circa 1988
Mirian Mancia
Missing since May 12, 1988 from Los Angeles, Los Angeles County, California
Classification: Endangered Missing

Vital Statistics

Date Of Birth: February 27, 1959
Age at Time of Disappearance: 29 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3"; 110 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Black hair; brown eyes.
Dentals: Not available
AKA: Mirian Elizabeth Barahona

Circumstances of Disappearance
Mancia was last seen May 12, 1988 in Los Angeles, CA. Foul play is suspected.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Los Angeles Police Department
213-485-5381
You may remain anonymous if you wish when submitting tips.
Agency Number: 8804-12176
NCIC Number: M-303538520
Please refer to these numbers when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.
Source Information:
California Department of Justice (http://dojapp.doj.ca.gov/missing/detail.asp?FCN=2748814910854)

MsRusty

02-28-2008, 10:44 PM

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mallari_anna.html

Regarding Anna as a match, I know she physically looks like PB's sketch, but wouldn't her age be to far off? If she is from '64, she would only have been 11 in '75. Too young to be a graduate or have given birth around that time.

RKnowley

02-28-2008, 11:02 PM

She could have been related somehow to someone who was in the Class of '75 or could have been a friend of one of them or.....

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mallari_anna.html

Regarding Anna as a match, I know she physically looks like PB's sketch, but wouldn't her age be to far off? If she is from '64, she would only have been 11 in '75. Too young to be a graduate or have given birth around that time.

RKnowley

03-05-2008, 10:50 PM

I didn't realize that Michelle (one of the possibles for Princess Blue) was married at the time she disappeared and had a son who was exactly a year old the day that Michelle was reported missing (7 October 1985)
Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse Online Bulletin

Missing Person Details

Date Picture Updated: 7/16/2003
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch_images/final/M9311003.jpg

Name: Michelle Doherty Thomas
Case Number: M9311003
Case Type: Endangered - Foul Play Possible
Last Seen in: Alta Loma (Galveston County)
Last Seen on: 10/5/1985
Height: 5' 2 "
Weight: 85 lbs.
Age Missing: 17
Eye Color: Green
Hair Color: Brown
Date of Birth: 11/16/1967
Race: White
Sex: Female
State Missing From: Texas
Country Missing From: USA
Circumstances: Michelle was last seen wearing a black Harley Davidson tank top, blue jeans, tennis shoes and carrying a beige purse. She has very prominent freckles.

Lanie

03-06-2008, 05:20 PM

Michelle is my no. 1 choice for Princess Blue. She looks enough like me to be my sister, so it is probably more that than rational thought...
Lanie

Babiana

03-07-2008, 07:15 PM

Xcom,

I myself disagree that we should not contact family members of a missing person to try and find out more about that missing person and to also see if they will submit a DNA sample to add to CODIS. I have found that most family members are glad to be contacted about their loved one & that that person has not been forgotten.

Excuse me for jumping in--you WSers are awesome. Being the family member of a missing person--I know our family would have been elated and relieved to know that someone(s) were trying to help. Of course, no speculation, but your letter is very thoughtful and tactful. Keep up the great work!! bjb

sloane

03-10-2008, 11:22 PM

It really does make you wonder why someone wouldn't report her in all that time. I know that not everyone has what most would perceive as "normal" family social dynamics (PFFFT - ask me about MY insane family LOL) but for 25 years?

Is there a contact person we can direct LE to in order to obtain these kits? I have a police dept. in IL that I would like to pass the info along to.

Hi everyone!
Don't know about a specific person, but your LE person in IL simply can contact the Univ. of North TX's Center for Human ID DNA Lab (not the Forensic Anthropology section), and ask to speak with someone about the program. They are always willing and helpful, excited, really, when agencies want to participate in getting familial reference samples from MP on file. Here's the link:

www.unthumanid.org (http://www.unthumanid.org)

I think the best place to look is the forensic and human ID sections, but peruse the whole site...it is eye-opening and so interesting. They are one of only three labs in the country that can do the kind of research and detailed exams that they do. What a wonderful resource!! THANK YOU federal funding!!

hope this helps, sloane

Gina_M

04-06-2008, 02:47 AM

sloane

04-06-2008, 05:32 PM

LionRun

04-06-2008, 05:38 PM

Forgive me for jumping in here, but I came across the link below when I was searching for something else. It lists lost and found rings from all over the country, sorted by date. Has anyone looked into this site for tracking down the owner of PB's ring?

http://www.abbycon.com/LostandFound/MainDirectory.htm

Gina, thank you so much for posting this link!:).

Okay, I didn't find any ring that could be Princess's ring in the lost section. So, I emailed the owner of the sight to ask her if she would print something about it in the found section. This is what I asked her to quote.

"Found 9/10/90 in Manvel, Texas - 1975 Robert E. Lee High School, Houston, TX, ladies ring, size 9 1/2. The ring is made with a silver metal alloy, has a blue stone with an engraved, "L", and has no detectable engravings on the inner band. The words, "Houston, Texas" is clearly visible and surrounds the stone. Please email (my email addy) if you have information about or have lost this a ring like this."

Lion

LionRun

04-06-2008, 05:43 PM

Interesting find, Gina M! Thank you for posting it. :)
Ironic that you should post it when you did, because I was just getting on here today to post a clarification on the class ring. Don't know if it will make much difference, but in the spirit of maintaining as much accuracy as we can, I thought I should mention it. Upon closer inspection, the script "L" in the blue stone of the class ring is not IN it after all. Meaning- it is not 'inlaid' as we thought. It is actually etched ON TOP OF the stone, like, it's tangible. One can feel that it has been carved into the top of the stone, and then likely a gold paint was put in it to make the "L" stick out. Some of the gold has flaked off by now. So if the info on this ring is to be posted elsewhere, or perhaps if there are still letters going out, it might be prudent to make this slight change in the wording...what do all of you think?
warmly, sloane

Sloane, it is great to read your post! I missed you you, friend:blowkiss:. Yes, I agree that this is very important information. The "L" may still stand for the Mascot, Robert E. Lee; however, it may also stand for the original owner's first or last name or perhaps for her boyfriend's first or last name.

I may need to track down the name and phone number for the REL (now LEE) HS librarian to ask her if she recalls seeing rings with this type of engraving.

Lion