Physical Evidence [Archive] - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

STEADFAST

01-18-2008, 11:25 AM

I don't want to lose the discussion we're on about the blood and crowbar, etc., while I'm at work today. Can we move it here so we can keep it easy to find?

close_enough

01-18-2008, 11:27 AM

I don't want to lose the discussion we're on about the blood and crowbar, etc., while I'm at work today. Can we move it here so we can keep it easy to find?

sounds good to me!

Pharlap

01-18-2008, 11:29 AM

When was the crowbar borrowed?

STEADFAST

01-18-2008, 11:29 AM

Someone please clear something up for me. Did the Murder take place in the Garage. And if it was in the Garage did they have a garage door. The reason
I ask this is if they do have garage door and Christina did not park in Garage
then it could be possible for him to cover this up and her not know. Some people us there garage for storeage and do not use or go into it on a daily bases. I know that we Park our Harley's in the Garage and unless we are going to ride the motorcycles we very seldom go into the garage. So if the
murder took place in the garage he could have had time to clear it up without her knowledge.

The blood was in more than one location, I believe.
"But the question is, of course, when she got back, remember, eventually, did she in the days to come -- did she smell that fresh paint? What about the fresh blood that was said to be covering the living room walls and ceiling? And he covered that up. What did she think about that? And what was she told?"
"Would she have been out on the first blow? Now, before you answer, let me remind you that according to the reports that we have, documents we have, there was blood all over the home, which to me says she tried to get away."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../17/ng.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/17/ng.01.html)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1921029)

close_enough

01-18-2008, 11:29 AM

with blood being in the garage & IN the home, it makes me think that Cesar may have chased Maria, while hitting her, through the house...or at least from the garage into the home or the other way around.....

golfmom

01-18-2008, 11:30 AM

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/11/acd.02.html

The sheriff certainly doesn't believe that is the case tonight especially given the evidence of the blood in the garage, blood on other walls in the house. And also there's some evidence tonight Anderson that whoever did cause this had also tried to paint over the blood that's on the walls. So clearly there was an effort to try and cover it up.

golfmom

01-18-2008, 11:31 AM

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7614196&nav=ZolHbyvj

...Brown says tests show blood in two areas of Laurean's home...and that someone tried to hide the blood by painting over it. Investigators say luminol, a chemical used to detect traces of blood, revealed that there was a large amount of blood before the attempted cleanup.

STEADFAST

01-18-2008, 11:31 AM

SuziQ
IMO, people under attack inside a building try to get OUT. I'm thinking the garage is where the attack ended. But who knows?It's really important, I think, to know whether the attack began or ended in the garage. If it began in the garage, then -- if the murder weapon really is a crowbar -- it could be a spur-of-the-moment thing. It wouldn't be unusual for a crowbar to be sitting around the garage. But if it began in the living room, I think Laurean (s?) must have been planning it, unless their living room in unusually filled with random tools.

close_enough

01-18-2008, 11:37 AM

When was the crowbar borrowed?

i don't think it's actually been established that there was a crowbar....at least LE hasn't officially stated this yet, sooooo there's been no date as to when it may have been borrowed....

correct me if i'm wrong...

STEADFAST

01-18-2008, 11:40 AM

i don't think it's actually been established that there was a crowbar....at least LE hasn't officially stated this yet, sooooo there's been no date as to when it may have been borrowed....

correct me if i'm wrong...

Also I don't think they've said that the murder weapon was borrowed. They just said a witness came forward with it.

close_enough

01-18-2008, 11:40 AM

Also I don't think they've said that the murder weapon was borrowed. They just said a witness came forward with it.

correct....

JinxieJada

01-18-2008, 11:41 AM

with blood being in the garage & IN the home, it makes me think that Cesar may have chased Maria, while hitting her, through the house...or at least from the garage into the home or the other way around.....

Did they move her until they figured out what to do with her? (Meaning her body, not her alive..although..perhaps that too, is possible.)

Apologies for a possible insensitive question- BUT is it just one hit that constitutes "blunt force trauma" or multiple strikes...Both?

Maybe a bit OT for the thread..BUT has there been any mention of where their child was during the time this all occurred?

lkd-ga

01-18-2008, 11:41 AM

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7614196&nav=ZolHbyvj

...Brown says tests show blood in two areas of Laurean's home...and that someone tried to hide the blood by painting over it. Investigators say luminol, a chemical used to detect traces of blood, revealed that there was a large amount of blood before the attempted cleanup.

If the murder took place in the garage and the large amount of blood was in this location then maybe he transfered some of the blood when cleaning up to other parts of the house. It was detected when they use luminol. I guess I have been watching too much CSI.

STEADFAST

01-18-2008, 11:47 AM

Did they move her until they figured out what to do with her? (Meaning her body, not her alive..although..perhaps that too, is possible.)

Apologies for a possible insensitive question- BUT is it just one hit that constitutes "blunt force trauma" or multiple strikes...Both?

MORRONE: I agree. There`s only one that a crowbar could take something out -- decapitation. Take them off at her vertebrae. But multiple strikes would be necessary.

GRACE: So this woman experienced intense pain before her death.

MORRONE: Yes. Absolutely.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/17/ng.01.html

Pharlap

01-18-2008, 11:48 AM

Shovel....
Video of neighbor interview.
http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/#

close_enough

01-18-2008, 11:50 AM

Did they move her until they figured out what to do with her? (Meaning her body, not her alive..although..perhaps that too, is possible.)

Apologies for a possible insensitive question- BUT is it just one hit that constitutes "blunt force trauma" or multiple strikes...Both?

Maybe a bit OT for the thread..BUT has there been any mention of where their child was during the time this all occurred?

could very well have been multiple strikes....i'm guessing this is the case, with so much blood, & spatter on the ceiling....

eta...haven't heard a word of where their child was, during this time period....

glezell

01-18-2008, 12:09 PM

could very well have been multiple strikes....i'm guessing this is the case, with so much blood, & spatter on the ceiling....

eta...haven't heard a word of where their child was, during this time period....

There wouldn't be cast off splatter (ceiling) with just one blow. The object would come down and then pulled back, then blood would come. Might be very little blood on the weapon, but it would be the next blow where it would come into contact with blood from the first strike. When the weapon was pulled back the second time, blood would have been thrown behind or above depending on the angle. So she had to be hit multiple times.:(

close_enough

01-18-2008, 12:17 PM

There wouldn't be cast off splatter (ceiling) with just one blow. The object would come down and then pulled back, then blood would come. Might be very little blood on the weapon, but it would be the next blow where it would come into contact with blood from the first strike. When the weapon was pulled back the second time, blood would have been thrown behind or above depending on the angle. So she had to be hit multiple times.:(

exactly.....

JinxieJada

01-18-2008, 12:35 PM

i don't think it's actually been established that there was a crowbar....at least LE hasn't officially stated this yet, sooooo there's been no date as to when it may have been borrowed....

correct me if i'm wrong...

They had the captain on Greta last night stating that someone had the item in their possession, caught the news stories, and put 2 and 2 together and made the call.

We were speculating in chat last night that perhaps, it was an item sold at their yard sale....the person caught the news stories and was like Holy &%&! and called police....Purely speculation - nothing has been confirmed BUT LE last night didn't deny that it was a crowbar either. Just that it was an item that was consistent w/ the injuries she had (or similar terminology)

Could it be they know, but they're not saying 100% till all tests are run, so as not to jeopardize the case? Not entirely up to speed on how it all works...

TIA!

JinxieJada

01-18-2008, 12:37 PM

MORRONE: I agree. There`s only one that a crowbar could take something out -- decapitation. Take them off at her vertebrae. But multiple strikes would be necessary.

GRACE: So this woman experienced intense pain before her death.

MORRONE: Yes. Absolutely.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/17/ng.01.html

WAIT - Could That be why he stated she slit her throat? Because he decapitated her? Maybe not on purpose (set out to do it) But it just "happened"

SPECULATION ONLY BELOW THIS POINT!!!
Let me clarify, Im sure the intention was to kill her, but maybe decaptitating her just happened (too much anger/adrenaline, got caught in the "moment" whatever, not excusing, trying to give an idea of what's in my head)..and that's where the story became that she slit her own throat, maybe it was supposed to look like she got into an accident, got assaulted etc. But after the decapitation occurred, he had to "cover it up" BIG TIME. IE dispose of her totally (or what he thought would be totally) Vs just "dumping" her somewhere?

I truly believe that Xtina knew about all of this, and participated in some form. BUT I'll play devils advocate against myself, and state this -

What if he killed her, and had her "hidden" Xtina came home "early" (After all, don't most Work/family xmas parties last longer than a couple hours) and he "told her" about it all. Hence the "are you still with me on this" BUT even so, wouldn't that make her guilty of participating in a cover up, lying, SOMETHING?

I'm having a terribly hard time coming to terms that she may "walk" away from all this. She may/will have her own demons from the experience, but she will still get to lead her life, see her daughter grow up, make friends, see/talk with family, she gets to CONTINUE LIVING. Maybe even with the possibility of having hubby around too. (she goes to him)

What about Maria and Gabriel? He didn't even get to take his first breath, Maria didn't get to welcome him into the world, hear his first cry, ***** about labor, go nuts with just typical mommy stuff, see the peaceful contented smile while he's sleeping, NOTHING, it was snuffed away from her, w/o a second thought. When is this going to STOP? And then to top it all off, This devastated girl cannot even get peace in death. Stupid idiots of the W.B Church out of Kansas are planning a protest...About how this shows that God Hates the USMC. I believe it was Flowerchild who spoke/typed about standing up for Maria, and the countless others like her, and when that time was, and who going to do so. Well Dammit, that time is NOW!

Ok sorry...Ranting....Between Maria's and Meredith's cases I'm hit. I apologize :truce:

glezell

01-18-2008, 12:48 PM

WAIT - Could That be why he stated she slit her throat? Because he decapitated her? Maybe not on purpose (set out to do it) But it just "happened"

Let me clarify, Im sure the intention was to kill her, but maybe decaptitating her just happened..and that's where the story became that she slit her own throat...

The autopsy said blunt force trauma. They would have been able to tell from the bones if she had been decapitated even if there was not enough flesh left....

JinxieJada

01-18-2008, 12:50 PM

The autopsy said blunt force trauma. They would have been able to tell from the bones if she had been decapitated even if there was not enough flesh left....

Oh, Im not talking about the causes of death necessarily, just someone getting a little overzealous and hitting in just the right spot but accidentally.

Stupid moment - but I thought when they said Crow bar..they were talking about a tire iron. I seriously, did not know, they were two different things, until I was told in chat. Could it be said crow bar, but actually be a tire iron...or am I the only one that doesn't know that LOL :rolleyes:

Pharlap

01-18-2008, 12:54 PM

Oh, Im not talking about the causes of death necessarily, just someone getting a little overzealous and hitting in just the right spot but accidentally.

Stupid moment - but I thought when they said Crow bar..they were talking about a tire iron. I seriously, did not know, they were two different things, until I was told in chat. Could it be said crow bar, but actually be a tire iron...or am I the only one that doesn't know that LOL :rolleyes:

Think the 2, if your not into tools, get them mixed up...-)

http://www.ask.com/web?q=What+Does+a+Tire+Iron+Look+like%3F&qsrc=6&o=1247&l=dis (http://www.ask.com/web?q=What+Does+a+Tire+Iron+Look+like%3F&qsrc=6&o=1247&l=dis)

http://www.ask.com/web?q=what+does+a+crowbar+look+like&qsrc=1&o=1247&l=dis

JinxieJada

01-18-2008, 01:24 PM

Think the 2, if your not into tools, get them mixed up...-)

http://www.ask.com/web?q=What+Does+a+Tire+Iron+Look+like%3F&qsrc=6&o=1247&l=dis

http://www.ask.com/web?q=what+does+a+crowbar+look+like&qsrc=1&o=1247&l=dis

Thanks!

SeriouslySearching

01-19-2008, 04:08 AM

i don't think it's actually been established that there was a crowbar....at least LE hasn't officially stated this yet, sooooo there's been no date as to when it may have been borrowed....

correct me if i'm wrong...Official: Marine Killed by Crowbar, Baby Was a Girl

Pregnant Marine Cpl. Maria Lauterbach was believed to have been killed by a crowbar blow to the head, a federal law enforcement official involved in the case tells the Blotter on ABCNews.com.

As the search widened for her suspected murderer, Marine Cpl. Cesar Laurean, initial autopsy results on Lauterbach's burned body, found buried in a North Carolina field, indicate that Lauterbach was eight-months pregnant with a baby girl, the official said.

~snip~

"We do have an item that we believe is consistent with the findings of the medical examiner, and we believe it could be the murder weapon," Capt. Rick Sutherland told the Associated Press today.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4155874&page=1

Littledeer

04-17-2008, 05:55 PM

Bumping this thread up as it has our earlier discussions on the blood splatters found and the crowbar.

Atomic

04-17-2008, 08:34 PM

Whoa! Didnt they bury the baby as a boy? I mean, is there a headstone with Gabriel Joseph on it, etc?

Tom'sGirl

04-17-2008, 08:38 PM

Whoa! Didnt they bury the baby as a boy? I mean, is there a headstone with Gabriel Joseph on it, etc?
Don't know if there's a headstone there or not, but yes, the family buried the unborn separately with that name, but a different date of death as did they with Maria's date of death.

oceanblueeyes

04-17-2008, 08:43 PM

I do believe they have much forensic evidence showing that Maria died in the garage, The blood found with luminol in the inside room was most likely transference blood brought into the home when the perp left the garage.

I also believe they have a lot of evidence to back up the clean up and cover up that happened after the initial crime.

However I do not believe that they have forensic evidence that directly points to him as being the one that did the actual murder. Imo they will use circumstantial evidence to infer. It was almost a month later when Maria was recovered. Much was lost during that long time period imo such as fingerprints in blood, fingerprints on weapon and no time of death can be established and remains unknown. Sutherland affirmed that in his last answers on L. Kay's blog.

I have looked at the autopsy drawings several times and I just do not see this injury being done by a crowbar where the cylindrical part has a octagon shape design. The injury is much wider than the slender bar and it is straight on the temple and ear area. If Maria saw this coming by instinct she would have swung her head to the right and the blow would have been more at a diagonal and further back toward the mid or back part of the skull. The injury is a tight area as if crushed in by something wider than a crowbar and there would be multiple fractures splintering out across the skull in that area. I have seen when a ME thinks a victim died from multiple blunt force trauma they always list that on the report. This ME said she died from blunt force trauma causing me to feel this was one blow to the head.

It really bothers me and I do wonder if their case is as strong as all LE tries to portray they are before going to trial. For some reason they are willing to try and sell the bill of goods that Christina is honorable and no one seems to be buying the PR move in Onslow County. I think they need her badly and that is why they are willing to overlook any deceitful thing she may have done. To me it shows they have a weakness in their case and are hoping CSL can pull it out for them. I think they have a risky key witness who may bring her own heavy baggage when she testifies.

imoo

oceanblueeyes

04-17-2008, 08:49 PM

Don't know if there's a headstone there or not, but yes, the family buried the unborn separately with that name, but a different date of death as did they with Maria's date of death.

Very unusual. They list the date of death as 12-15 not 12-14 and on the Probate papers the date of death is the 16th.:waitasec:

Crime-Dreamer

04-17-2008, 09:07 PM

There were two caskets. They may have been put in one grave. The baby's casket may have been placed inside the other. I don't know if there are two graves or one.

panthera

04-18-2008, 08:30 PM

Very unusual. They list the date of death as 12-15 not 12-14 and on the Probate papers the date of death is the 16th.:waitasec:
No way do I see the date of death as 12/16, but I can't figure out why the discrepancy between 12/14 the last known date she was alive and 12/15 when there is no proof she was alive, unless it happened right after midnight. If that's the case, where was she in between the 5:00pm bus ticket purchase and midnight? :confused:

Littledeer

04-18-2008, 08:55 PM

Here is the timeline we have for the dates of 12/14 through 12/17:

12/14/07 (Friday)

Marines: CL reports to duty
AMW: Maria reports to work - Ends @ Noon
Noon: Work Ends for X-Mas Party on Base
Marines: CL does not attend X-Mas Party
AMW & Marines: Maria does not attend X-Mas Party
2:30 p.m. Maria talks to Mom (Dayton Daily?)
Maria withdraws $700 from BoFA ATM (Fox video)
ATM timeline w/Maria's card. Transcation images show:

12-14-07 FRI
... 16:19:38 -- Maria? approaches Stage R. Sunglasses. Hoodie sweatshirt.
... 16:19:41 -- Lettering on hoodie spells _AYTON?
... 16:19:49 -- May be DAYTON.
... 16:19:57 -- Maria? looks stage Left (toward her R shoulder)
... 16:20:01 -- Maria? half in shot -- some background visible.
... 16:20:03 -- Maria? w/left hand to chin.
... 16:20:18 --
... 16:20:39 -- Maria (pregnant, hair pulled back, sunglasses) exits stage R.
5:00 p.m. Maria purchases 1 way ticket to El Paso, Texas (Last sighting of Maria)
http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/...1-11-0006.html (http://www.wnct.com/midatlantic/nct/news/local_news.apx.-content-articles-NCT-2008-01-11-0006.html)
AMW & Marines : Durham finds Note
Marines: Durham calls Maria's Sister
Marines: Durham talks to Maria's Mother

12/15/07 (Saturday)

Cesar tells Christina in Note (found 1/11/08 by Christina) that Maria arrives at their home; went to bus station with Maria to purchase ticket; Maria comes back later in the evening, Maria kills herself.
(Per Christina as told to Sheriff's Office on 1/11/08 and filed in Search Warrant dated 1/12/08).
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/17/...ine/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/17/missing.marine/index.html)
Christina Laurean told police she was at a Christmas party for her husband's Marine unit during the late afternoon and evening of December 15, Onslow County Sheriff Ed Brown told CNN. Her husband did not attend the party, she told authorities.

12/16/07 (Sunday)

Fox News: CL borrows shovel from neighbor Alender
AMW: CL @ Lowe's purchases supplies, paint, concret blocks, and wheelbarrow. (On tape)
Alender: Sees CL driving Maria's Car (Could be the 17th)

Before I say anything, I think the X-Mas party was held on Friday and not on Saturday as noted above. I thought we had that one figured out...but maybe it didn't get over to the timeline.

That being said.........I totally agree with panthera........no way on the 16th. More likely the 14th based on eyewitness accounts of Maria being seen (video cam at bank)...........

I'm thinking Saturday...............discussion was held between CL and Christina on what to do...........Sunday purchasing necessary tools, paint, etc. to cover up. (IMO)

panthera

04-18-2008, 09:19 PM

Great timeline, Littledeer, except I'm confused about this part specifically the part in red ~ wasn't Christina at the party on the 14th?? :confused:
12/15/07 (Saturday)

Cesar tells Christina in Note (found 1/11/08 by Christina) that Maria arrives at their home; went to bus station with Maria to purchase ticket; Maria comes back later in the evening, Maria kills herself.
(Per Christina as told to Sheriff's Office on 1/11/08 and filed in Search Warrant dated 1/12/08).
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/17/...ine/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/17/missing.marine/index.html)
Christina Laurean told police she was at a Christmas party for her husband's Marine unit during the late afternoon and evening of December 15, Onslow County Sheriff Ed Brown told CNN. Her husband did not attend the party, she told authorities.

eta another thing ~ what time was the bus supposed to leave for El Paso on the 15th?

Littledeer

04-18-2008, 09:54 PM

panthera:

You must have missed this in that post:

Before I say anything, I think the X-Mas party was held on Friday and not on Saturday as noted above. I thought we had that one figured out...but maybe it didn't get over to the timeline.

I thought the bus left around 7:00ish, but will have to go find the information for sure before I state it as a fact.

panthera

04-18-2008, 10:01 PM

panthera:

You must have missed this in that post:

Before I say anything, I think the X-Mas party was held on Friday and not on Saturday as noted above. I thought we had that one figured out...but maybe it didn't get over to the timeline.

I thought the bus left around 7:00ish, but will have to go find the information for sure before I state it as a fact.

Oops ~ I'm sorry Littledeer. I just went back and reread the post and sure enough, there it is! :doh:

I'm still not seeing how the murder took place on the 15th, even shortly after midnight to make it that date, since there'd be about a 7 hr. gap between the time the ticket was purchased ~ so where was Maria all that time? I think it's entirely possible she went to CL's house before the bank and bus station, and returned to his house after finding out she wouldn't be leaving until the next day ~ and that would coincide with the time of Mrs. CL coming home from the party (around 7pm).

Littledeer

04-18-2008, 10:18 PM

I'm still trying to sift through all the threads for the time the train "left". I think Tom'sGirl or RumTum would know. (but then, RumTum is MIA, along with other posters now that I am rereading old threads).

Glad your still hanging around!! :blowkiss:

IMO, I can't see how the Coroner could make a time of death based on the body conditions of Maria and her baby. I think he can only go on the same things we know...............the facts of when Maria was last seen and the actions that were taken by her (ATM, etc.).

So adding in CL's activities on the 12/16, I would have to say that Maria died either on the 14th or the 15th. If we knew more of Christina's activities during those two days........................I can bet we would know what exact date Maria died on.

Littledeer

04-18-2008, 10:37 PM

Found this posted by close enough on 1/16/08:

well, how i understand it, Durham found Maria's note the evening/afternoon of the 14th...the ticket was purchased, apparently by Maria, the next day.. (i know of no time mentioned)....the bus was to depart later that evening on the 15th....

No time of leaving the station yet.............but I know when I did the timeline.............I looked on the calendar for what day it was.(i.e. Monday, Tuesday) etc. The timeline is also pretty much backed up with supporting documentation (i.e. news articles, videos, etc.).

The reason for that was all the contradictions..........we were trying to weed out facts vs. fiction......

But I'm really starting to beleive now that Christina had a big part in all of this............most assuredly the cover up.

panthera

04-18-2008, 10:39 PM

I'm still trying to sift through all the threads for the time the train "left". I think Tom'sGirl or RumTum would know. (but then, RumTum is MIA, along with other posters now that I am rereading old threads).

Glad your still hanging around!! :blowkiss:

IMO, I can't see how the Coroner could make a time of death based on the body conditions of Maria and her baby. I think he can only go on the same things we know...............the facts of when Maria was last seen and the actions that were taken by her (ATM, etc.).

So adding in CL's activities on the 12/16, I would have to say that Maria died either on the 14th or the 15th. If we knew more of Christina's activities during those two days........................I can bet we would know what exact date Maria died on.
Oh I'll be here through the trial! :blowkiss: I'll try to see if I can check anything out for the bus schedule, but I still think it was the evening of the 14th. I just can't see where Maria would be for that many hours since she'd already left the note that she was leaving the MC at Durham's house.

panthera

04-18-2008, 10:50 PM

Found this posted by close enough on 1/16/08:

well, how i understand it, Durham found Maria's note the evening/afternoon of the 14th...the ticket was purchased, apparently by Maria, the next day.. (i know of no time mentioned)....the bus was to depart later that evening on the 15th....

No time of leaving the station yet.............but I know when I did the timeline.............I looked on the calendar for what day it was.(i.e. Monday, Tuesday) etc. The timeline is also pretty much backed up with supporting documentation (i.e. news articles, videos, etc.).

The reason for that was all the contradictions..........we were trying to weed out facts vs. fiction......

But I'm really starting to beleive now that Christina had a big part in all of this............most assuredly the cover up.
We know now though that the ticket was purchased on the 14th for the 15th, but I thought it would've been in the morning. IIRC, there were two busses, one in the morning and one in the evening (which she missed on the 14th). In CL's note, he said it happened on the 15th. I think that was put in there because Christina probably had an alibi for then. I also think she dictated what was to be put in the notes.

Littledeer

04-18-2008, 10:54 PM

I'll be here too panthera.

By the way..........in rereading what I sent you.......the bus ticket was purchased on the 14th with the train LEAVING on the 15th.

So that would leave us back to the last time Maria seen alive is on the 14th.

So TOD has to be on the 14th or on the 15th depending on what time Maria was with CL and/or Christina. I think you get what I'm saying.

There is no coroner that I've ever seen that has said the EXACT TOD........they all usually have some hour span...........some less..........some more.

But in Maria's case........IMO............TOD is either the 14th or the 15th........it really doesn't make much difference IMO..........meaning it could be a one or two hour difference which could translate to 10:00 pm on the 14th at TOD or 12:00 to 1:00 am on the 15th as TOD.

We know the activities of CL on the 16th..............so he knew Maria was dead............

oceanblueeyes

04-18-2008, 11:33 PM

Oh I'll be here through the trial! :blowkiss: I'll try to see if I can check anything out for the bus schedule, but I still think it was the evening of the 14th. I just can't see where Maria would be for that many hours since she'd already left the note that she was leaving the MC at Durham's house.

I think she was surprised that she couldn't leave on the 14th. With all her preparation I do believe that was her intent. IIRC the bus scheduled to leave the afternoon of the 14th was around 5:40 pm. If Maria did not arrive until around 5 pm, I think she found the last bus out that day, full. It is one of the busiest times of the year up there. So many are taking 10 day leave to go home for the Christmas holidays and usually like to leave once they get paid so they can have more time with their families during the holidays.

The bus for the 15th was scheduled to leave around 10 am.

I don't think she had planned at all. She had already written the note to Dan Durham so she couldn't go back there knowing he could already be back home.

I even wonder if she returned to Laurean's in a panic because she was afraid to be seen in Jacksonville not knowing if DD had already told someone she had left and she expected Laurean to solve her problem. Maybe he insisted that she had to leave and leave then or all hell was going to break loose when Christina walked through that door. What if Maria, who was known to be no pushover, refused to leave?

imoo

panthera

04-18-2008, 11:34 PM

I'll be here too panthera.

By the way..........in rereading what I sent you.......the bus ticket was purchased on the 14th with the train LEAVING on the 15th.

So that would leave us back to the last time Maria seen alive is on the 14th.

So TOD has to be on the 14th or on the 15th depending on what time Maria was with CL and/or Christina. I think you get what I'm saying.

There is no coroner that I've ever seen that has said the EXACT TOD........they all usually have some hour span...........some less..........some more.

But in Maria's case........IMO............TOD is either the 14th or the 15th........it really doesn't make much difference IMO..........meaning it could be a one or two hour difference which could translate to 10:00 pm on the 14th at TOD or 12:00 to 1:00 am on the 15th as TOD.

We know the activities of CL on the 16th..............so he knew Maria was dead............
This was mid-December, Maria was 8 mo. pregnant, and she wouldn't have been sleeping in her car or driving around for a few hours between 5pm - midnight, so I believe she was killed some time in the evening of the 14th. Like I said, I think Christina dictated to CL to put the 15th in his note because (imo) she wasn't home that day. :(

panthera

04-18-2008, 11:38 PM

I think she was surprised that she couldn't leave on the 14th. With all her preparation I do believe that was her intent. IIRC the bus scheduled to leave the afternoon of the 14th was around 5:40 pm. If Maria did not arrive until around 5 pm, I think she found the last bus out that day, full. It is one of the busiest times of the year up there. So many are taking 10 day leave to go home for the Christmas holidays and usually like to leave once they get paid so they can have more time with their families during the holidays.

The bus for the 15th was scheduled to leave around 10 am.

I don't think she had planned at all. She had already written the UA to Dan Durham so she couldn't go back there knowing he could already be back home.

I even wonder if she returned to Laurean's in a panic because she was afraid to be seen in Jacksonville not knowing if DD had already told someone she had left and she expected Laurean to solve her problem. Maybe he insisted that she had to leave and leave then or all hell was going to break loose when Christina walked through that door. What if Maria, who was known to be no pushover, refused to leave?

imoo
Thank you! :blowkiss: I thought it was around 10am too but couldn't find where my link was to the schedule. I am totally with you about Maria wanting to get on the bus the evening of the 14th and more or less was bumped to the next one, with no place to go that night but back to CL's house after leaving Durham the goodbye note, and that would turn out to be a fatal decision. I do think Christina came home and found her there ~ alive. MOO, of course! :)

oceanblueeyes

04-18-2008, 11:48 PM

I'll be here too panthera.

By the way..........in rereading what I sent you.......the bus ticket was purchased on the 14th with the train LEAVING on the 15th.

So that would leave us back to the last time Maria seen alive is on the 14th.

So TOD has to be on the 14th or on the 15th depending on what time Maria was with CL and/or Christina. I think you get what I'm saying.

There is no coroner that I've ever seen that has said the EXACT TOD........they all usually have some hour span...........some less..........some more.

But in Maria's case........IMO............TOD is either the 14th or the 15th........it really doesn't make much difference IMO..........meaning it could be a one or two hour difference which could translate to 10:00 pm on the 14th at TOD or 12:00 to 1:00 am on the 15th as TOD.

We know the activities of CL on the 16th..............so he knew Maria was dead............

In this case due to the decomposition and charring of the body the ME will give an even wider date range. There is no way he could ever tell time of death within hours. Now had Maria been found within a few hours and still showed rigor, lividity or had food in her stomach they could narrow it by mostly likely a 8-12 hour time range.

I think it will make a difference. Even the Lauterbach's have the date of death on Maria's myspace as the 15th even though LE has said it happened on the 14th. It makes me wonder if they believe Laurean over LE since he is saying the 15th.

Captain Sutherland said on Lindell Kay's blog that they have no time of death. They really don't know when this happened. It reminds me of the Meredeth Emerson case......she was last heard from when she was seen hiking Blood Mountain and then went missing however she did not die until 3 or 4 days later.

When this was to have occurred I think will become monumental in this case. IMO Laurean is coming back and he is going to start talking and also imo it is going to line up with evidence they have uncovered but have not understood and are wanting more information. I have never seen a LE team express their desires of hoping they get to talk to the suspect so that he can tell them his side of the story.

imoo

oceanblueeyes

04-18-2008, 11:56 PM

Thank you! :blowkiss: I thought it was around 10am too but couldn't find where my link was to the schedule. I am totally with you about Maria wanting to get on the bus the evening of the 14th and more or less was bumped to the next one, with no place to go that night but back to CL's house after leaving Durham the goodbye note, and that would turn out to be a fatal decision. I do think Christina came home and found her there ~ alive. MOO, of course! :)

That is my opinion too, panthera.:)

imoo

oceanblueeyes

04-18-2008, 11:59 PM

This was mid-December, Maria was 8 mo. pregnant, and she wouldn't have been sleeping in her car or driving around for a few hours between 5pm - midnight, so I believe she was killed some time in the evening of the 14th. Like I said, I think Christina dictated to CL to put the 15th in his note because (imo) she wasn't home that day. :(

What if she was home that Saturday? What if he left that clue for the police?:eek:

imoo

panthera

04-19-2008, 02:24 PM

What if she was home that Saturday? What if he left that clue for the police?:eek:

imoo
Hmmmmm ~ that's an interesting thought! I'd always thought they were both up the night before he left writing the note together, but you may be on to something and anything's possible here! :)

panthera

04-19-2008, 05:19 PM

I'm putting this link here since it includes a reply by Capt. Sutherland at 4:40pm ET today to questions ~

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=66#comment-776

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 05:47 PM

BIG ONE HERE- de (who asked a lot of good questions) asked about the shoe the sheriff found on Greta. Sutherland: “We feel comfortable that we know who the shoe belongs to and that it will be available to prosecutors if they decide to use it at the trial. It appears to have evidentiary value.”

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=66#comment-776

panthera

04-19-2008, 06:19 PM

BIG ONE HERE- de (who asked a lot of good questions) asked about the shoe the sheriff found on Greta. Sutherland: “We feel comfortable that we know who the shoe belongs to and that it will be available to prosecutors if they decide to use it at the trial. It appears to have evidentiary value.”

http://onslowcrime.encblogs.com/?p=66#comment-776
Oh, I can't wait! :D Let's see, Maria was killed at the house, buried in the back yard, and CL's been charged with the murder, so it isn't a big deal if Maria's blood is on his shoe, is it? Now if it's Christina's shoe, that would contradict what LE is saying that she wasn't involved, even in the cover up.

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 06:27 PM

If you look at the photos of the shoes (one outside on the stoop in our photo thread and the other being in the garage photos which we don't have there)...they just don't look large enough to be Cesar's to me unless he had some little feet, but then there is nothing to compare it to. The other photo I will have to track down where the Sheriff is holding it up to show what appears to be blood. (Do men often do their shoestrings that way? The strings are not long enough to tie at the top and are tucked in an upside down fashion. My kiddo wears some of her tennis shoes this way!)

panthera

04-19-2008, 06:56 PM

If you look at the photos of the shoes (one outside on the stoop in our photo thread and the other being in the garage photos which we don't have there)...they just don't look large enough to be Cesar's to me unless he had some little feet, but then there is nothing to compare it to. The other photo I will have to track down where the Sheriff is holding it up to show what appears to be blood. (Do men often do their shoestrings that way? The strings are not long enough to tie at the top and are tucked in an upside down fashion. My kiddo wears some of her tennis shoes this way!)
I edited (cropped and enlarged) the photo of the shoe to show more detail. It does look like a man's shoe to me.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/lechatdunoir/Laureanshoe-1-1.jpg?t=1208645725

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 07:21 PM

I have just never seen a man do his laces that way before. Kinda odd.

Tom'sGirl

04-19-2008, 08:00 PM

If you look at the photos of the shoes (one outside on the stoop in our photo thread and the other being in the garage photos which we don't have there)...they just don't look large enough to be Cesar's to me unless he had some little feet, but then there is nothing to compare it to. The other photo I will have to track down where the Sheriff is holding it up to show what appears to be blood. (Do men often do their shoestrings that way? The strings are not long enough to tie at the top and are tucked in an upside down fashion. My kiddo wears some of her tennis shoes this way!)
The question of whether it's a male or female shoe was answered by Rick Sutherland, it's a MALE's shoe.

However, some woman do wear men's shoes.

Snowlover77

04-19-2008, 09:09 PM

SS, I have never known any man to have their shoelaces tied in that fashion...that is the way most laaces are tied though when you buy them, I think. I would think they belonged to a girl rather than a guy. And just going by memory...I would speculate it belonged to Maria not Christina..Christina looks to be a larger frame than Maria and usually petite women have small feet.

Snowlover77

04-19-2008, 09:11 PM

OK...so it is a man's shoe..maybe they were that way when he bought them and he just left them like that.

Tom'sGirl

04-19-2008, 09:14 PM

OK...so it is a man's shoe..maybe they were that way when he bought them and he just left them like that.
Could be Snow, or maybe Cesar wasn't the one who was wearing them.

panthera

04-19-2008, 09:19 PM

SS, I have never known any man to have their shoelaces tied in that fashion...that is the way most laaces are tied though when you buy them, I think. I would think they belonged to a girl rather than a guy. And just going by memory...I would speculate it belonged to Maria not Christina..Christina looks to be a larger frame than Maria and usually petite women have small feet.
Well then if the shoes belonged to Maria, and one of them was outside the garage door which went into the back yard and the other one was inside the garage, please don't tell me Christina didn't notice them! And why would they have been left there?

Tom'sGirl

04-19-2008, 09:22 PM

Well then if the shoes belonged to Maria, and one of them was outside the garage door which went into the back yard and the other one was inside the garage, please don't tell me Christina didn't notice them! And why would they have been left there?

Many women with wide feet wear either men's athletic shoes, or men's boots so maybe they are Christinas.

The fact that the one shoe was just laying there by the garage door during Greta's tour makes you wonder why the CSI didn't take it in for analysis?

Maybe the investigative team has done a Luminol test on it already and it didn't test for blood so they just left it there???

Snowlover77

04-19-2008, 09:51 PM

I remember when Greta did that show and the shoe was discovered....I was suprised that it had not been taken and examined for possible evidence...it does according to Capt. Rick Sutherland, have evidentuary value...a jury will ultmately have to sort through exactly what the shoe tells or doesn't tell.

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 09:59 PM

OK...so it is a man's shoe..maybe they were that way when he bought them and he just left them like that.I don't think they sell shoes with ties too short to tie.

Snowlover77

04-19-2008, 10:15 PM

Yes, They do sell them because I have bought several pairs and they came already fashioned like that.it is a pain to undo them too...and then later on I wanted to do them like that again and could never figure out how to do it sio I asked my daughter who was about 19 at the time to do it for me...she did it with no problem....

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 10:16 PM

Many women with wide feet wear either men's athletic shoes, or men's boots so maybe they are Christinas.

The fact that the one shoe was just laying there by the garage door during Greta's tour makes you wonder why the CSI didn't take it in for analysis?

Maybe the investigative team has done a Luminol test on it already and it didn't test for blood so they just left it there???It is so odd they didn't bag it and take it with blood or whatever it had on it. I was really confused at how it could be just laying outside and LE completely overlooked it! It made no sense because it was so obviously out of place on the stoop like that.

I wonder if they took the mate in the garage?

SeriouslySearching

04-19-2008, 10:17 PM

Yes, They do sell them because I have bought several pairs and they came already fashioned like that.it is a pain to undo them too...and then later on I wanted to do them like that again and could never figure out how to do it sio I asked my daughter who was about 19 at the time to do it for me...she did it with no problem....Weird! I guess it for people who just slip them on and off.

Snowlover77

04-19-2008, 10:33 PM

Yea, It is weird.
Regarding the shoe's mate, I don't know if they took it or not. Even if they did take that one...you would think they would have taken both especially due to where they were found.......but we are on the outside looking in and we do not know what they know nor have we seen what they have seen...in reference to the shoes.

SeriouslySearching

04-20-2008, 02:50 AM

Did LE release the photos inside the garage where the shoe was seen...or were those taken by reporters?

oceanblueeyes

04-20-2008, 10:01 AM

SS, I have never known any man to have their shoelaces tied in that fashion...that is the way most laces are tied though when you buy them, I think. I would think they belonged to a girl rather than a guy. And just going by memory...I would speculate it belonged to Maria not Christina..Christina looks to be a larger frame than Maria and usually petite women have small feet.

I think it is hard to tell what CSL stature is because she is pregnant in the photos I have seen. If she is built like her sister looks on her myspace page then she is probably a very thin, petite woman when not pregnant.

I don't find Maria to be petite woman. She was sturdy built and in the soccer photos she seems to have a stocky, athletic build. Her legs have mass and it is obvious that she is the athletic type.

So it would not surprise me that the shoe was worn by Maria.

What I do wonder about though is CS is saying they have value but seems to think the Prosecutor may not use it. Is this because they know the defense will raise a ruckus on how this shoe was handled before the SW could be obtained and another odd thing about that entire ordeal it wasn't Laurean's lawyer crying foul .......it was Christina's. So........ maybe the shoe DOES belong to her.:waitasec:

imoo

oceanblueeyes

04-20-2008, 10:05 AM

Did LE release the photos inside the garage where the shoe was seen...or were those taken by reporters?

Those were crime scene photos that Captain Sutherland was showing Greta on his computer. No reporters were allowed to go inside the home.

imoo

panthera

04-20-2008, 12:51 PM

I think it is hard to tell what CSL stature is because she is pregnant in the photos I have seen. If she is built like her sister looks on her myspace page then she is probably a very thin, petite woman when not pregnant.

I don't find Maria to be petite woman. She was sturdy built and in the soccer photos she seems to have a stocky, athletic build. Her legs have mass and it is obvious that she is the athletic type.

So it would not surprise me that the shoe was worn by Maria.

What I do wonder about though is CS is saying they have value but seems to think the Prosecutor may not use it. Is this because they know the defense will raise a ruckus on how this shoe was handled before the SW could be obtained and another odd thing about that entire ordeal it wasn't Laurean's lawyer crying foul .......it was Christina's. So........ maybe the shoe DOES belong to her.:waitasec:

imoo
I too could see a woman with wide feet, or a pregnant woman whose feet swell, wearing the mens sneakers. If the shoes weren't collected when CSI was processing the crime scene and only discovered after Greta/SB found them, then I can see a good attorney wanting them excluded as evidence at trial. For instance, even if they are Christinas, they could have gotten blood on them from just being in the garage not necessarily that she'd worn them while murdering Maria. The same could be said if the shoes belong to Cesar. MOO :)

panthera

04-20-2008, 12:54 PM

It is so odd they didn't bag it and take it with blood or whatever it had on it. I was really confused at how it could be just laying outside and LE completely overlooked it! It made no sense because it was so obviously out of place on the stoop like that.

I wonder if they took the mate in the garage?
I can't see how it was overlooked either, and wonder if it wasn't put there afterward? I can't see the Laureans' small dog having carried it there though. It's just one of the many things that don't make much sense, imo.

Tom'sGirl

04-20-2008, 04:19 PM

It is so odd they didn't bag it and take it with blood or whatever it had on it. I was really confused at how it could be just laying outside and LE completely overlooked it! It made no sense because it was so obviously out of place on the stoop like that.
I wonder if they took the mate in the garage?
My guess is SS that it wasn't overlooked, but like many other items inside and outside the garage the shoe inside the garage or the one outside showed didn't show any evidence that indicated to the investigative team to take them.

It seemed to me that all the items they took out of the garage must have been sprayed with Luminol prior to taking them outside and showed nothing as it was all placed back inside the garage. I am however curious as to what exactly they did take as evidence from inside the garage and the home.

MCDRAW

04-20-2008, 06:56 PM

I have just never seen a man do his laces that way before. Kinda odd.

Maybe not a man, but my teenage son and his friends do. I think they do this so they can just slip them on and off. Or they are just too lazy to tie their shoes.

panthera

04-20-2008, 07:02 PM

Maybe not a man, but my teenage son and his friends do. I think they do this so they can just slip them on and off. Or they are just too lazy to tie their shoes.
Looking at the photo again, that's what I think happen ed. Someone just wanted to slip them on and off. Now is it Cesar, Christina or Maria? :)

Snowlover77

04-20-2008, 09:19 PM

Right or wrong...if u go with practical, you'd have to go with Maria..her being pregnant..she would surely want something she could just slip on and off, I would think.

Tom'sGirl

04-20-2008, 09:23 PM

Right or wrong...if u go with practical, you'd have to go with Maria..her being pregnant..she would surely want something she could just slip on and off, I would think.
Whomever they belong to, the LE knows. I personally don't think they're any big clue to the case, but that's just my thinking.

Snowlover77

04-20-2008, 09:36 PM

Oh yea..that we can be sure of and I agree..they don't seem to have a big bearing on the case..but we may all end up being suprised.

panthera

04-20-2008, 09:44 PM

Right or wrong...if u go with practical, you'd have to go with Maria..her being pregnant..she would surely want something she could just slip on and off, I would think.
I could see her wearing them too, even if they are mens shoes since she was pregnant her feet probably swelled and they'd be more comfortable.

panthera

04-20-2008, 09:45 PM

Whomever they belong to, the LE knows. I personally don't think they're any big clue to the case, but that's just my thinking.
I'll agree, especially with what the Capt. said about the prosecutor using them if they want to.

Snowlover77

04-20-2008, 10:17 PM

I think they are probably Maria's...they wouldn't be Christina's due to what the prosecutor said about them having evidentuart value..they don't think Christina was even involved...so my guess is they belonged to Maria...I don't recall reading anything in the autopsy report about her having shoes on...even if they had burned..u would still have something left that would identify them as shoes. So, the evidentuary value must be in the area that it was found in...was it close to the back door?

panthera

04-20-2008, 10:34 PM

I think they are probably Maria's...they wouldn't be Christina's due to what the prosecutor said about them having evidentuart value..they don't think Christina was even involved...so my guess is they belonged to Maria...I don't recall reading anything in the autopsy report about her having shoes on...even if they had burned..u would still have something left that would identify them as shoes. So, the evidentuary value must be in the area that it was found in...was it close to the back door?
There was no mention in the autopsy report of her wearing anything but a green shirt and medium sized sports bra. Shoes or clothing on her lower body weren't in the report. One shoe was in the garage and the other one was right outside the garage door leading into the back yard. :)

Snowlover77

04-20-2008, 10:56 PM

Yea, ok...it stands to reason they would have evidentuary value since LE believes Maria was killed in the garage...makes more semse too that they are her shoes...just by the geographics of them. I think so anyway.

SeriouslySearching

04-21-2008, 12:25 AM

I think the problem with the shoe is being found outside by Greta's crew. The shoe was completely missed...which I find terribly odd being they had the bonfires, parties, and other things going on in their backyard after Maria was murdered. It was overlooked by Cesar, Christina, AND all of the LE scouring that yard and home for clues to this horrific murder. How did it go unnoticed by all those people for a month or so?!

However, we don't know if they took the other shoe found in the garage in as evidence...do we? I have forgotten if we have a complete inventory of what they recovered as evidence. If the shoe outside did have blood on it from Maria, I would assume the other shoe still inside the garage could have blood on it, too.

I don't think they are Maria's. I don't see her kicking off her shoes as she was being fatally hit in the head and having her throat cut after her death. There would have been blood on both shoes from her wounds and from pooling of blood around her.

Besides, if they were determined to be Maria's...Wouldn't they be considered more important to the case than "might be used by the DA"?

Snowlover77

04-21-2008, 08:36 AM

They could have come off of her when he was dragging her body...this type of shoe could slip off easily if the one wearing them were being dragged somewhere.

oceanblueeyes

04-21-2008, 10:29 AM

I think the problem with the shoe is being found outside by Greta's crew. The shoe was completely missed...which I find terribly odd being they had the bonfires, parties, and other things going on in their backyard after Maria was murdered. It was overlooked by Cesar, Christina, AND all of the LE scouring that yard and home for clues to this horrific murder. How did it go unnoticed by all those people for a month or so?!

However, we don't know if they took the other shoe found in the garage in as evidence...do we? I have forgotten if we have a complete inventory of what they recovered as evidence. If the shoe outside did have blood on it from Maria, I would assume the other shoe still inside the garage could have blood on it, too.

I don't think they are Maria's. I don't see her kicking off her shoes as she was being fatally hit in the head and having her throat cut after her death. There would have been blood on both shoes from her wounds and from pooling of blood around her.

Besides, if they were determined to be Maria's...Wouldn't they be considered more important to the case than "might be used by the DA"?

They never admit all the evidence they have....I think the SW will be highly contested and CS knows that. So imo he is expecting motions to be filed on this particular piece of evidence and it may be deemed inadmissable by the court Judge.

Actually if you see Greta when she is at the back stoop she is standing right by the shoe on her left and doesn't even notice it. Sheriff Brown is the one that noticed the shoe. He eye view was in line with it as he talked with Greta. He then didn't touch the sole where I believe the forensic evidence was located but used a wire to maneuver the shoe and then radioed in to obtain a SW for the shoe.

They may have been Maria's because the ME did not list shoes taken from the grave. However we do not know if they found remnants of shoes in the soil samples taken. It is hard to say what she was buried in as the charring damage was done more to her lower body.

imo

panthera

04-21-2008, 01:51 PM

They could have come off of her when he was dragging her body...this type of shoe could slip off easily if the one wearing them were being dragged somewhere.
I could see this scenario too where the shoes just come off as she's been dragged, but what seems really odd is no mention of her having any clothing below the waist in the autopsy report. That would make me believe someone took the shoes off, either Maria, or whoever removed her clothing. If that's what happened, how one shoe got outside is curious though.