The Baby

[Tsunami]

I have heard the sherriff make statements about the baby's hands, and state they were not burnt. Makes me wonder if the child was born during the attack, or did the POS remove the child from her after her death.
Has anyone heard anything else about the child other than it being a baby girl?

[philamena]

After the mother dies, the baby will be expelled from the body due to a build up of gases. Since the had wasn't burned, I'm guessing the baby came out after the fire went out.

[Rum Tum Tugger]

I have heard the sherriff make statements about the baby's hands, and state they were not burnt. Makes me wonder if the child was born during the attack, or did the POS remove the child from her after her death.

Has anyone heard anything else about the child other than it being a baby girl?

My recollection is that Sheriff Brown stated that he saw ONE hand - not burned - that looked like a tiny glove in shape of being curled like a fist - that the hand was severed from the arm just laying there. A vision that he will not soon forget.

I have many questions about the baby daughter that Maria's OB-Gyn reported was 6 lbs at her last appt. in Nov.

If Cesar used the alleged crowbar to deliver blunt force trauma to Maria's head - where else did he strike her? The tummy-abdomen area?

How did Maria's tiny daughter's hand become severed from her arm?? :confused: :mad: Not from the bonfire as there were no burn marks - and certainly she was not born that way.

Was else did Cesar Laurean do to Maria's body & her unborn baby before burying her in that pit & setting her on fire?

The mere thought is chilling!

Too sad for words. No wonder we are all having trouble sleeping. :(

Rum Tum

[ShannonOhara]

Just heartbreaking

[Elphaba]

Ok, we know that her abdomen was open, because the sherrif saw the baby's hand, while she was being unearthed. Perhaps Cesar stabbed her... or tried to cut the baby out, in the process severing the baby's hand?

(apologies for sounding so graphic... :( )

[ShannonOhara]

I was thinking the same thing, that maybe after he killed her he might have tried to remove the baby. I have read he was telling people his wife was pregnant, but wasnt...were they planning on trying to take the baby from her.

[Littledeer]

Rum Tum:

No wonder we are all having trouble sleeping. :(



Most assuredly will be having trouble sleeping after that reading all of the above!! I can't even imagine how Sheriff Brown and the others are sleeping who had actually seen Maria and the baby :(

[s_finch]

And it looks like they are both going to get away with this....at least in this life. :mad:

[USMCWife]

The baby could have been visible because of the state of decomposition...or it's possible Maria's skin on her abdomen had been burnt away. The baby's arm could have been severed due to charring of the arm.

[close_enough]

And it looks like they are both going to get away with this....at least in this life. :mad:

oh no way...Cesar will be caught & convicted, imo....UNLESS, at the last moment, he kills himself when surrounded...i can picture this scenario also..

[SeriouslySearching]

I think Sheriff Brown either said or intimated the baby's hand was detached due to the arm being burned. The mother's stomach, uterus, and placenta would have protected the baby up to a point and why I don't think the baby had been born or extracted from the mother before.

[lisag]

I though the baby was a boy??

[Rum Tum Tugger]

I think Sheriff Brown either said or intimated the baby's hand was detached due to the arm being burned.

The mother's stomach, uterus, and placenta would have protected the baby up to a point and why I don't think the baby had been born or extracted from the mother before.


Actually, SS - the sheriff said exactly the opposite. He stated that there was "no charring" of the baby's hand.

To me, that equates to *no burning. He also used the term "bizzare" when referring to the investigator's *find* on the evening before the authorities actually extracted Maria's body from the pit on the following day.

I think he was referring to the tiny hand he witnessed seeing in that makeshift grave. It was "bizarre" - to say the least.


JMO

Rum Tum

[SeriouslySearching]

Right!! The baby's HAND was intact...which was bizarre since the ARM was not.

[paddy01]

I was thinking the same thing, that maybe after he killed her he might have tried to remove the baby. I have read he was telling people his wife was pregnant, but wasnt...were they planning on trying to take the baby from her.

Hi, now that's quite possible, it wouldn't be the first time this was attempted look at all the news articles on people cutting babies from their mothers wombs. Anyways, I think if people are desperate enough they'll do almost anything. But that's a good question why was he telling people that Christine was pregnant? It's the first time I"ve heard this.

[Mygirlsadie]

I just heard on Fox news that they are STILL trying to determine the sex of the baby... (and the paternity) I wonder if Cesar will feel any guilt if he turns out to be the father of the little guy/girl?

[close_enough]

i heard earlier that the baby is a boy again!!..which is it?..a boy or a girl?:confused:

[STEADFAST]

i heard earlier that the baby is a boy again!!..which is it?..a boy or a girl?:confused:

This isn't boding well for the results of the DNA test.

[Tom'sGirl]

i heard earlier that the baby is a boy again!!..which is it?..a boy or a girl?:confused:
I'm still waiting for 2nd Autopsy Report confirmation myself. I'm getting to the point where I believe one half of what I read, and less than that to what I hear :(

[close_enough]

This isn't boding well for the results of the DNA test.

isn't it just nuts???....NG is the one that said this earlier...i find out now that she did NOT have the autopsy results in her hand, ONLY that the family stated it was a boy in Maria's obit.....

[close_enough]

I'm still waiting for 2nd Autopsy Report confirmation myself. I'm getting to the point where I believe one half of what I read, and less than that to what I hear :(

ok, am i mistaken, or didn't the 1st autopsy state the baby was a girl????...i can't even remember where i heard/read it was a girl!

[Tom'sGirl]

ok, am i mistaken, or didn't the 1st autopsy state the baby was a girl????...i can't even remember where i heard/read it was a girl!
YES, the first Autopsy said "Girl" from what was reported.

[close_enough]

YES, the first Autopsy said "Girl" from what was reported.

thank you!...lol

[close_enough]

baby was a girl.....

http://i.abcnews.com/Blotter/story?id=4155874&page=1

[SeriouslySearching]

Then why did NG report it tonight as a boy?! It wasn't an old show or a rerun. Did her staff just royally screw up?!

[Tom'sGirl]

Then why did NG report it tonight as a boy?! It wasn't an old show or a rerun. Did her staff just royally screw up?!

Who knows if it was current or not. She's rehashed old news or speculations over and over. However I think she would have made the statement something like "this just in, or confirmation made", but she didn't.

She also the other night got all horrified about the report that Maria had he throat cut post-mortem and that had been reported previously on her own station.

To me the sex doesn't matter, but it may in the end if Maria knowingly knew the sex and lied about it.

[SeekingJana]

What happened? Ultrasounds are usually accurate now, depending on how late in pregnancy the genitalia are scanned.

Did Maria lie about the sex of the baby? Why would she?

[Littledeer]

Jana:

Maria's last medical appointment that she went to was 11/26/07 (according to the Marine Press Conference) and supposedly it was said that the baby weighed at least 6 pounds.

It's been 23 years since I have last given birth, and I honestly can't recall if a sonogram was a routine practice to do. But if one had been done on Maria, I would think if the doctor can say the weight of baby, why not the gender??

Yes, I have heard of stories where the doctor has said it's a girl, and then it was a boy, and vice versa. But it appears from what has been said from the family, that Maria was sure it was a boy.

I'm still stomping patiently for the final autopsy reports on the gender of the baby.

[Seven]

What happened? Ultrasounds are usually accurate now, depending on how late in pregnancy the genitalia are scanned.

Did Maria lie about the sex of the baby? Why would she?

I remember reading somewhere that the angle of the baby in her uterus on the day of the ultrasound made identification of the baby's gender uncertain.

That does sound plausible,
but OTOH, they might just be "not telling" for some reason.

[Littledeer]

Why am I still stomping waiting for the FINAL results of the baby's gender?

Has it been officially announced that it has been DEFINTATELY DETERMINED that the fetus was a girl or a boy??

:mad:

[Tom'sGirl]

Why am I still stomping waiting for the FINAL results of the baby's gender?

Has it been officially announced that it has been DEFINTATELY DETERMINED that the fetus was a girl or a boy??
I haven't read a thing LD confirming one way or another or if the DNA matched Cesar Laurean or not.

[Littledeer]

TG:

Thanks for your response. Don't you find that odd since the remains were recovered on January 10/11th??

Today is February 6th. So we are looking at close to a month and yet no results??

Or do they know and it's being undisclosed because of the furor it would cause??? That doesn't seem possible, as it already caused a furor from the original DNA results that it was a girl. And yet, Maria, her family, and even us here all thought it was a boy.

Still stomping..............

[Tom'sGirl]

TG:

Thanks for your response. Don't you find that odd since the remains were recovered on January 10/11th??

Today is February 6th. So we are looking at close to a month and yet no results??

Or do they know and it's being undisclosed because of the furor it would cause??? That doesn't seem possible, as it already caused a furor from the original DNA results that it was a girl. And yet, Maria, her family, and even us here all thought it was a boy.

Still stomping..............
At this point I just don't know why they aren't saying anything. Could be part of the investigation, but how I don't know, unless the DNA didn't match CAL.

[gardenmom]

Why am I still stomping waiting for the FINAL results of the baby's gender?

Has it been officially announced that it has been DEFINTATELY DETERMINED that the fetus was a girl or a boy??

:mad:

I admit I have not read here in probably the last 2 weeks. I am trying to get caught up. I thought they determined the baby was a girl, but when I read the ulogy (sp) they still were saying Gabriel Joseph and referred to the baby as a boy! Surely it must have been a boy after all? WTH is going on?

[Crime-Dreamer]

Opinion - I think there are additional details in the autopsy that will result in addtional charges so the autopsy is being held until the arrest. Or, there are conflicting opinions in the results and the person signing the final report is not ready to issue a decision yet. That is why I was asking if additonal charges could be added after he was arrested.

[Littledeer]

gardenmom:

I agree, WTH is going on???? I think Crime-Dreamer might be right for either one or both of the reasons that she/he posted. But even then, I don't think making an anouncement of the sex of the baby would compromise anything. Maybe it really was a girl as was stated in the initial autopsy report, but Mary and the family knowing that Maria believed the baby to be a boy up to her death, wanted to honor her belief even in death.

[sherryggg]

Just wondering if anyone has any update on the DNA results. I've looked but I can't find anything.
Sherryggg

[MCDRAW]

What happened? Ultrasounds are usually accurate now, depending on how late in pregnancy the genitalia are scanned.

Did Maria lie about the sex of the baby? Why would she?


I know about lots of ultrasounds that are wrong. The technology may be better but the person reading them may not be.

[Snowlover77]

There are some who are quite sure that Cesar is not the baby's father. I can't recall exactly where I read that..maybe in the blog..the one where Captain Sutherland answers questions..and the one where the journalist Lindell Kay also does investigaive reporting on this story. I believe he said his sources were telling him that Cesar was not the father of Maria's baby. He said his source seemed to be pretty sure. Could that be the reason Cesar killed Maria? Was he so angry with her, even though she was leaving town, that he went into a full blown rage...because she had brought misery and turmoil to his life. Or could it be he loved her and then she told him the baby wasn't his and she was leaving, he went crazy and didn't want to lose her? Did he find out that she was having sex with someone else and lost his temper. Or did he premeditate the murder of Maria to remove her and the baby and the DNA from his life....ya gotta think the reason he burned her body was to destroy as much of the DNA as he could. Such an interesting case... very very sad though that 2 human beings lost their lives.

[oceanblueeyes]

Just wondering if anyone has any update on the DNA results. I've looked but I can't find anything.
Sherryggg

The last I heard is the DNA testing to determine who the father is has not been done. They said they are going to wait until Laurean returns.

Sounds real fishy to me since they can identify a deceased Marine or a soldier coming back from Iraq just from having a strand of their hair.

There is plenty of his DNA in his own home. I think they are stalling or the initial results weren't what they wanted so they are going to retest. I did find it interesting that Hudson ,I believe it was, said they would be testing potential father(s).

imoo

[SeriouslySearching]

We also know they had an "intact" hand of the baby and surely DNA from his home. I think they have the evidence, but want to wait for more conclusive evidence for the record is all. Does anyone doubt the baby was his? Maybe Maria...but if she did...we will never know if she ever questioned it...however, the factual DNA will prove it all once and for all.

[oceanblueeyes]

We also know they had an "intact" hand of the baby and surely DNA from his home. I think they have the evidence, but want to wait for more conclusive evidence for the record is all. Does anyone doubt the baby was his? Maybe Maria...but if she did...we will never know if she ever questioned it...however, the factual DNA will prove it all once and for all.

For a long time I thought that Gabriel had to be his but now I am no longer sure.

Maria, herself, said Gabriel was not a product of rape so for her to discount that she had to have known that she had had sex with another person after then it seems to me. If not then surely she would have told them "that cannot be.... I haven't had sex with anyone after the rape allegations were made." (example)

imoo

[LillyRush]

Was she ever contending in her protection order or other reports that he was the father? I thought she was focusing on the rape, as far as he went, and the pregnancy was just an aside, possibly unrelated coincidence?

[oceanblueeyes]

Was she ever contending in her protection order or other reports that he was the father? I thought she was focusing on the rape, as far as he went, and the pregnancy was just an aside, possibly unrelated coincidence?

Yes, I believe she was ...the MC said she rearranged her statement on November 5, 2007 and that is when she told them he was not a product of the rape allegations.

November 5th is also the same day she moved in with Dan Durham.

imo

[LillyRush]

Thanks, oceanblueeyes, that's what I thought at first. So far, Dan Durham has seem to portray himself as the friend who was just helping her out and felt bad for her situation. Interesting about the move-in date.

[panthera]

The last I heard is the DNA testing to determine who the father is has not been done. They said they are going to wait until Laurean returns.

Sounds real fishy to me since they can identify a deceased Marine or a soldier coming back from Iraq just from having a strand of their hair.

There is plenty of his DNA in his own home. I think they are stalling or the initial results weren't what they wanted so they are going to retest. I did find it interesting that Hudson ,I believe it was, said they would be testing potential father(s).

imoo
Hi Ocean! :) I think they might want to test him directly because the other test showed he wasn't the baby's father. Just MOO!

[STEADFAST]

The last I heard is the DNA testing to determine who the father is has not been done. They said they are going to wait until Laurean returns.

Sounds real fishy to me since they can identify a deceased Marine or a soldier coming back from Iraq just from having a strand of their hair.

There is plenty of his DNA in his own home. I think they are stalling or the initial results weren't what they wanted so they are going to retest. I did find it interesting that Hudson ,I believe it was, said they would be testing potential father(s).

imoo

The military takes samples for DNA testing during inprocessing, so they already have his DNA or the ability to test a blood sample for it. But they said they were going to wait to get a sample from him when he's brought back, so that there is no question about the source of the sample. (You can imagine what a defense lawyer could say about a blood sample taken at the same place on the same day as hundreds of others and stored for a couple of years.)

What I do not understand is why it is the military not Onslow County or the State of North Carolina that seems to be in charge of getting the DNA results. Maybe they can get results faster than the state? With all the suspicion surrounding the Marine Corps' handling of this case (which I don't necessarily share, personally) it just doesn't seem wise to have this forensic evidence coming from them.

[oceanblueeyes]

The military takes samples for DNA testing during in processing, so they already have his DNA or the ability to test a blood sample for it. But they said they were going to wait to get a sample from him when he's brought back, so that there is no question about the source of the sample. (You can imagine what a defense lawyer could say about a blood sample taken at the same place on the same day as hundreds of others and stored for a couple of years.)

What I do not understand is why it is the military not Onslow County or the State of North Carolina that seems to be in charge of getting the DNA results. Maybe they can get results faster than the state? With all the suspicion surrounding the Marine Corps' handling of this case (which I don't necessarily share, personally) it just doesn't seem wise to have this forensic evidence coming from them.

Hi Steadfast!

Actually DA Hudson doesn't seem to hold the same opinion as Congressman Turner and others, it seems. He has remarked that the MC did everything they were supposed to do in his opinion. Personally in NC right now I doubt any DA who has become gun shy because of the NiFong disaster would have even taken this case to a GJ based on no solid evidence to prove it BARD. I think Hudson is one of those DAs and feels there was not sufficient evidence.

I think that is one of the reasons the MC are keeping the rape allegations open so this is a technical way they can find out who the father of Gabriel is by at least doing DNA testing on CL. What is interesting is Hudson commented and used plural (fathers) when he spoke.

imoo

[ckhagen]

I don't typically follow this case, but FWIW ultrasounds are notoriously unreliable for weight predictions. The measurements used to determine weight are extremely finicky. I believe that after I think, 34 weeks, ultrasound weight estimates can be plus or minus 2lbs... which... with the average full term baby being around 8lbs... gives you a range of 6-10lbs... not too many babies are born outside that range anyway, so it's almost pointless to put any weight on that (pun intended, lol).

My son was predicted to be absolutely no more than 7.5 pounds on the day he was born, by the obstetrician and an ultrasound tech. He came out 10lbs 8oz.

My other observation in this thread is the factor of the baby's hand being visible. Has anyone considered that perhaps the baby's hand was actually the only part to be forced out by gasses or the fetal ejection reflex. Considering the gestational age of the baby, it could be very likely that the child was not yet in a head down position or was with an arm or arms raised, allowing the arm to be the first and subsequently only part to emerge.

[Crime-Dreamer]

Autopsy says sex of the baby cannot be derterminded. Read the autopsy itself and not news reports of the autopsy. Sex of the baby and paternity has not yet been released. Discription of the fetal remains are defined in the autopsy. It is on the media links thread.

[oceanblueeyes]

Autopsy says sex of the baby cannot be determined. Read the autopsy itself and not news reports of the autopsy. Sex of the baby and paternity has not yet been released. Description of the fetal remains are defined in the autopsy. It is on the media links thread.

Yes, at the time of the autopsy the ME was unable to determine gender of the child however they will send off the fetal remains off for further testing to see if that can be determined. I think they will guesstimate the gestational age of the fetus by a 4 week window so we will never know if the January date was correct or February due date was imo.

Personally I think they have already run a preliminary test trying to determine if CL is the father and it either was inconclusive or he was not and they are waiting to get fresh DNA from him. I know if Gabriel is not his child that will be a big deal both on all the boards as well as in court.

imoo

[Snowlover77]

I know I have read that NCIS does not think CL is the father. I believe that is what I read anyway. I think the MC and the NCIS have completely different views of this case and what transpired through it all. It will be interesting to hear the evidence when it goes to trial. There is obviously alot that we do not know yet. Otherwise we wouldn't be having such a hard time trying to figure it all out. LOL! I do believe we are missing one huge piece of this puzzle.

[LillyRush]

I'm kind of surprised they haven't stated the results yet, or at least hinted at them.

How far along are they now in this process to extradite him back here?

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm kind of surprised they haven't stated the results yet, or at least hinted at them.

How far along are they now in this process to extradite him back here?

Not one person is talking but his lawyer McNeil and he said he didn't really know that much about the extradition. He evidently doesn't know Spanish because he said there was a language barrier which I thought was strange. Surely there is someone he knows that can interpret it for him.:confused:

Personally I think they have done a test already and it either came back that Gabriel is not his or it was inconclusive and that is why they are using the excuse that they are going to wait until he comes back. McNeil says it maybe 1 to 3 years before this goes to trial.

It makes no sense they would wait all that time. His DNA was throughout his own home and they were in it the very day he left and could have easily obtained it.

I think they are stalling because they don't want the results leaked out.

imoo

[Crime-Dreamer]

Don't you think the state of NC already has run the DNA evidence? They have been asked that question and they don't deny it. They just say they are not trying to prove rape only murder. They do not say what the results are or if they have the results or if the results will be used to show motive. They will not answer the question. I have watched for it and listened for it because I heard they already have it and have had it for a while. Either way it could be motive for murder.

[Tom'sGirl]

Don't you think the state of NC already has run the DNA evidence? They have been asked that question and they don't deny it. They just say they are not trying to prove rape only murder. They do not say what the results are or if they have the results or if the results will be used to show motive. They will not answer the question. I have watched for it and listened for it because I heard they already have it and have had it for a while. Either way it could be motive for murder.
Of course they know the results, but until the trial I doubt that info. will ever be released.

It has however been speculated that the DNA of the unborn was NOT a match to CAL.

[oceanblueeyes]

Don't you think the state of NC already has run the DNA evidence? They have been asked that question and they don't deny it. They just say they are not trying to prove rape only murder. They do not say what the results are or if they have the results or if the results will be used to show motive. They will not answer the question. I have watched for it and listened for it because I heard they already have it and have had it for a while. Either way it could be motive for murder.

I thought they said that they were waiting until Laurean returns to get his DNA? Why would they lie if they already have his DNA profile which would tell them whether he is Gabriel's father or not?

ETA: Also I am not sure the State can enter that evidence into the murder trial. Motive is not an element that has to be proven and isnt the State's burden.



imoo