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SeriouslySearching
02-03-2008, 08:17 PM
OK I guess it is just me, but LE had this photo for 15 years and never noticed the older man in the photo seems be halfway into the ground?! You can see where his body fades and shows the snow plus shrubs, but the child is intact at the same point. They seemed to also miss that this photo survived intact after being underwater for a period of time (they give no indication as to how long he was in the water) which is so unlikely! I think this is all very Bizarre myself!! However, I am glad they figured out the child in the photo is the man who died, but was it murder or suicide? 38 lbs of rocks in a backpack in a reservoir? :confused:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327806,00.html

Filly
02-04-2008, 01:55 AM
SS, reading the article I got confused. That land is where the Bookless home once stood? So, how could the man be sinking? Plus, is it the child who drowned? It's a disturbing photograph. I don't like it. Perhaps it's film from that time. We have tons ofphotographs from around the 40's and early 50's that are fading. The thing is that isn't faded. It appears the man has no lower extremeties. The whole rocks in the bag well that is just bizarre. Thank you for this though. I'd love to know more about this family. Never fails though there's always someobody somewhere recognizes a house or street lamp or something. I enjoy photography, and that's one weird picture.

KatK
02-04-2008, 02:11 AM
I dunno what they mean about the photo, it was taken cropping the grandfather's legs off, the better to show all of the child. The person who died was the child in the photograph, who was an adult at the time they died. They had a photograph of themselves as a child in their grandfather's arms on them when they drowned themselves. (Is that a kilt the grandfather is wearing in the photo? It looks like plaid, and I think I see part of a Sporran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporran)...)

Filly
02-04-2008, 02:42 AM
I dunno what they mean about the photo, it was taken cropping the grandfather's legs off, the better to show all of the child. The person who died was the child in the photograph, who was an adult at the time they died. They had a photograph of themselves as a child in their grandfather's arms on them when they drowned themselves. (Is that a kilt the grandfather is wearing in the photo? It looks like plaid, and I think I see part of a Sporran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporran)...)

See, this is why I missed you so much. KatK always makes sense and brings logic to the game. I gotta look again. The photo was in the water though. No way would a photograph last in water. So, the cops cropped the picture? The Pop got on a kilt? I'mma check it out, Kat. Thanks for your insight.

Filly
02-04-2008, 02:50 AM
Kat, It may be cropped, but not where the kilt or pants would be because the little boys shoe is parallel to where that part of Pop's body is. Do they wear kilts with a suit jacket? I mean is that appropriate? I worked for a photographer for quite a few years and actually cropped prints. I think if they cropped it then they'd have cropped more from the background. Then again that's how the woman identified where the spot was. Not that it means anything, but it's disturbing to me. Obviously not posed, but it gives me a bad feeling. I don't think these are happy people. Then again well don't mind me.

KatK
02-04-2008, 02:50 AM
I meant the person taking the picture didn't photograph the grandfather from just below the waist down. And look at that metal thingy, it's too low to be a belt buckle, see how the pants come up? I think it's a sporran fastened on him, and I see what looks almost like a plaid pattern. But I can't see so well either. Can anyone blow up the picture and post a link please? It's gonna nag at me until I can see it bigger... *sigh*

Photographs have survived fire, and being out in the elements. They used better quality paper way back when. The idea that the photograph somehow survived doesn't suprise me. Remember it was in a frame, tucked into the grown grandson's clothing. It might have taken a while to get wet, and there might have been some kind of airtight seal that took a while to be breached too? If it is an old frame, never opened and the like, it might have been specially sealed, or some kind of seal formed over the years?

ETA: Yes, they sometimes do, for weddings or special Scottish events. (Maybe it was Burns Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burns_supper), since its winter? Robert Burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Burns).) I've seen special "Jacobite" suits that have kilts, sporran, socks shoes and all. I'll see can I dig up some picutres. Look at that metal, rounded thingy against the dark of his pants, what is that? It isn't the grandson's shoe. It's about the shape of a belt buckle, but a BIG BIG one, but it is way too low to be a belt buckle.

KatK
02-04-2008, 02:56 AM
See here (http://houseoftartan.co.uk/scottish/itempg.asp?itemid=2105&pc=70&TartanID=0&catid=9003) for a rather formal example of wearing a suit shirt/jacket with a kilt.

KatK
02-04-2008, 03:00 AM
Hmm, ok might not be a sporran. I just saved the image to my desktop, and then I could make it bigger. I can see the grandfather's hat under the arm on the right side of the photo, and looks like his gloves under that (Maybe? Might just be old photo, bad eyesight and the shrub, but that *is* a hat he has, and of course he would have, he's a gentleman, they wore hats at that time.) same arm's elbow. (The arm on the other side of the little boy. Or, is it a satchel?! The round thing under his hand, photo damage, satchel, or hat? That gleaming reflective looking area to the side of the child's foot, what is it? Photo damage? Just how bad has my eyesight gotten now, anyways?! :( ) It might be some kind of damage to the photo, and not a sporran. From a non-enlarged photo though, it had the placement, and shape of one. :crazy: :blushing:

fivekidz4me
02-04-2008, 03:34 AM
I had to read this story several times to finally understand it!
31 year old man drowns in Somers, NY (backpack filled with rocks) and he was holding this particular picture in a glass frame as he drowned. (which explains why the picture was in pretty good condition)

Police have been searching for the people in the picture, figuring the drowned victim was the youngster in the photograph. (why else would the 31yo man have this particular picture with him)

So the police try to id the people in the photo, to no avail for years, thinking it was taken in Massachussets because of the streetlight.

A lady noticed that the picture was taken in Brookhaven, NY (she saw building landmarks) and they finally figured out who the drowned man was. (The picture was taken on the property the mans family owned--so they checked dentals and they matched)

That was the most confusing story--or else I'm just too tired! Rest in Peace Andrew

Filly
02-04-2008, 03:52 AM
LOL this will be making us all go bonkers. I have no way to enlarge it. If it was in a glass frame that'd make it more prone to damage I'd think unless like ya said Kat back then the quality of the paper etc. was better. You should never, ever clean with liquid the glass on a picture frame without removing the photograph first and be sure it's completely dry before ya put the print back in. O.K. more important I wonder why he had this just one picture with him? How very sad. Kat thank you for all of your sharing. I mentioned before you share knowledge, but not in a condescending way. Man, my pet peeve is condescention. I'm not educated, and well put it bluntly my daughter and my ex husband both downright condescending. "Oh look at this article. Never mind you won't understand it and don't know anything about it". So, thank you. I'm going to get a magnifying glass for this baby.

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 12:14 PM
I have looked at this photo time and time again. It makes no sense. There is no reason for the man to fade at the waist, imo, and you shouldn't be able to see the snow and the bushes directly behind him while the baby's shoes in the same area remain intact. It doesn't look like a double exposure either...which could explain it. He is dressed like my father used to and the pin on his lapel could be a chamber of commerce pin, a small flag, or having to do with the Masonic Lodge.

I have never seen a frame that is airtight, if those are made, I would love to have them! I have seen old photos that are waterdamaged and there is no way this one looks to have been underwater at all.

Yes, the child in the photo is the person who drowned. A woman did finally recall the building and helped put it together to find out who he was. He was 31 years old when he died.

I just find it very odd that even the reporter made no mention of the oddity of the photo itself. They aren't very detail oriented, are they? LOL

Pharlap
02-04-2008, 12:18 PM
I believe it's a double imposed picture.
Back then you can take one picture on top of another,
IF you didn't forward to the next picture to be taken.
I've done it many times....

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 12:39 PM
Yes, but you will see the background of the first photo melding into the background of the second one making it appear "off" or blurred. This is a crisp photo and I don't believe it can be a double exposure.

Pharlap
02-04-2008, 12:47 PM
Yes, but you will see the background of the first photo melding into the background of the second one making it appear "off" or blurred. This is a crisp photo and I don't believe it can be a double exposure.

Not necessarily, depends on the shutter speed.
Photographers would do that intentionally too.
I've had pictures that did turn out like that.

Retired in NH
02-04-2008, 03:29 PM
ok...this is what I can see. The boy is wearing sandles with socks. The man is holding some sort of pack or sachel in front of him. They are standing in front of a peddle car but I can't make out what the other thing is. If you save the picture to your pictures than hit preview, you are able to enlarge it....

absinthe
02-04-2008, 03:38 PM
I am just glad that this man has been identified and here y'all are trying to create more mysteries! Lolz!
That is one creeeeeepy photo. The look on the older man's face even seems menacing to me. Did the article say who the old man was?

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Retired~ It looks to me the child is wearing what we used to called "saddle" shoes. They have a little leather piece which goes over the area of the top of the foot. They were very popular back in the 50s.

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 03:47 PM
They thought the older man was possibly a grandfather, father, or uncle...but they never specified who it actually was. I found that odd, too, because the remaining four siblings should know that detail.

absinthe
02-04-2008, 03:48 PM
They thought the older man was possibly a grandfather, father, or uncle...but they never specified who it actually was. I found that odd, too, because the remaining four siblings should know that detail.


So strange!

This family is haunted!

Retired in NH
02-04-2008, 03:59 PM
Retired~ It looks to me the child is wearing what we used to called "saddle" shoes. They have a little leather piece which goes over the area of the top of the foot. They were very popular back in the 50s.


I looked again and they may be....It is such a weird picture...Just the look on the boys face.....

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 04:08 PM
It is a very strange photo and a very strange case! I am glad they figured out who he was finally. (It sounds like he has not been returned yet to the family.)

absinthe
02-04-2008, 04:13 PM
I remember reading about this case a few weeks ago and wondering why, out of all the photos in the world, the man chose to preserve THAT one so carefully...

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 04:18 PM
I think he would have to be incredibly close to this person because it would seem that this photo was the most important thing to him at the time of his death. It makes me wonder if this was the last photo he had of himself with that person before the older man passed away.

absinthe
02-04-2008, 04:19 PM
I think he would have to be incredibly close to this person because it would seem that this photo was the most important thing to him at the time of his death. It makes me wonder if this was the last photo he had of himself with that person before the older man passed away.


Or perhaps trying to send a clue? As in, I am committing suicide because of THIS person?

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 04:30 PM
Why wouldn't he have left a note with the photo where people could find it (on dry land) and let them know why he was committing suicide?

absinthe
02-04-2008, 04:58 PM
Trying to leave a mystery? IDK my mind is just going off on tangents.

SeriouslySearching
02-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Maybe he thought it was the coolest photo he had ever seen. Who knows?

Filly
02-05-2008, 03:01 AM
I think he would have to be incredibly close to this person because it would seem that this photo was the most important thing to him at the time of his death. It makes me wonder if this was the last photo he had of himself with that person before the older man passed away.

Maybe because he saw what we see, SS? This is just my opinion, but I see what you do. I see that man got no bottom half. The boy/victim has on saddle shoes. They both seem to be looking down at something. Hey, who knows maybe the ground they are standing on is haunted? I agree that no way that wouldn't have alot of water damage and if it was behind glass the moisture would get under it and we wouldn't be looking at that picture as we are now. Oh or racking our brains about it. Something is wrong there, and well anyone has pounds of rocks in a bag and they drown that way that is way weird. He was a cute little boy though, but again I don't like the man. Them saddle shoes my mom polished like a mad woman every single night for us for school. My brothers wore them as well with short pants when they were real young.

fmw63
02-07-2008, 03:19 PM
Just looks like he's standing behind some shrubs to me...:waitasec:

Filly
02-09-2008, 02:00 AM
Just looks like he's standing behind some shrubs to me...:waitasec:

LOL Probably is, fmw, but please allow me my fun. I want it to be so much more.

Malapoo
02-20-2008, 09:17 PM
The article said the older gentleman was his grandfather. It also said the family believes he fell through ice and accidentally drowned though that doesn't explain why he was carrying 38#s of rock?

mysteriew
02-20-2008, 11:43 PM
I don't know if this guy would have had access to a computer. But what it looks like to me is two old photos scanned into a computer and then photoshopped together with the man/boy having been cut out and pasted on top of the background. If it is, then it is probably some kind of clue, but I don't know what. Fav person and fav place- what he wanted to remember. Or this person did something to me and here is where it happened... I don't know which.

Filly
02-22-2008, 12:23 AM
I don't know if this guy would have had access to a computer. But what it looks like to me is two old photos scanned into a computer and then photoshopped together with the man/boy having been cut out and pasted on top of the background. If it is, then it is probably some kind of clue, but I don't know what. Fav person and fav place- what he wanted to remember. Or this person did something to me and here is where it happened... I don't know which.

Whoa, mysterie. Now that's a thought. It could be. There gotta be something to that photograph and I want to know what.

phenolred
03-03-2008, 05:02 PM
I remember reading about this on the unsolved threads

here is a link
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57958

Filly
03-04-2008, 12:01 AM
I remember reading about this on the unsolved threads

here is a link
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57958

Thank you. Thank you so much phenolred.

phenolred
03-04-2008, 08:23 AM
I couldnt stop thinking about this last night in bed, I had been following the unidentified thread about him, I kept thinking they must have cropped the pic on the Doe network, because and I am emabarresed to say I didnt notice the Missing LEGS LOL, but everything from the Doe network is now GONE, all pics and everything but on this link I found it and apparently it wasnt cropped when I saw it I guess I was too concered with looking in the background for clues.

But in this newspaper article its says "IT appears someone took a picture of these two standing in the backyard" I guess they didnt notice the man is just floating there with with no legs....or that he is buried up to his waist.....I dont think they had photoshop back in 1993 with the guy was found dead.

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_8017674?source%253Dmost_viewed.20F88DA3D7D369F5 BB70F372987EAE1F.html (http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_8017674?source%253Dmost_viewed.20F88DA3D7D369F5 BB70F372987EAE1F.html)

Filly
03-05-2008, 01:01 AM
This photograph is driving me batty. Granted I'm already out there, but this is haunting to me. Besides the fact somebody in Boston "collects utility poles". Anyway, the man's left hand is kind of creepy to me. He's like pointing. Then what is in his other hand besides the child? Is it a toy like a plush toy? I want to know why this man had this picture with him. I know. I know. What's the point, but considering the older man obviously is floating makes me wonder.

phenolred
03-05-2008, 07:52 AM
I think his hands look kind of crippled to me, maybe arthritis or something. Both of them look like that to me. I was looking a huge enlargement if you click on the photo in the link above that I provided it makes the picture very large.

In that it doesn't look like he is holding anything else to me IMO.

This picture would be easy to do in this day and age, but in 1993 or before I dont think it would have been so easy. Plus it was probably taken in the 50's it's a Black and white.
AND LOL WHO collects telephone poles I found that weird too.

I wonder if he's family could answer some questions about the picture.

Or maybe someone can email the reporter that did the story for the paper and ask about the "floating or sinking man"

DebC
03-05-2008, 09:03 AM
Or maybe someone can email the reporter that did the story for the paper and ask about the "floating or sinking man"
This is what I see: The negative has been damaged along the bottom edge of the photo. The completely white areas look like snow, but if you compare them to the snow behind, you can see the difference. The white along the bottom edge is not the ground.

Filly
03-05-2008, 11:09 PM
AND LOL WHO collects telephone poles I found that weird too.Or maybe someone can email the reporter that did the story for the paper and ask about the "floating or sinking man"
Now I am tempted to e-mail the reporter for two reasons. Please, tell me a little more about teley pole collecting and for my own sanity can ya find out why the man had this picture on his person?

STEADFAST
03-06-2008, 03:10 AM
I think this man may be holding a ring net crab (or fish or crayfish) trap that obscures the bottom part of his body. You can see the thin metal handle of it going across his left hand and again across the boy's pants leg where it disappears in the glare of the sun. He's also holding some kind of thick hook in his left hand that also seems to be grasping the netting and some kind of netting-like material in his right hand.

phenolred
03-06-2008, 07:51 AM
I hit me maybe he doesnt have legs or a lower body, I know of 2 people that I have seen with this, I have seen a lady named Rose Siggins on tv and they said the woman with half a body. She walks with her hands and uses a skateboard it get around.

I found this out about her she was born with a rare genetic disorder called Sacral Agenesis,

The other man he is on Jerry Springer sometimes he does not have a lower body. He walks on his hands.
here are a couple of links so you can see what it looks like

Rose
http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/rosesiggins.html


Here is Kenny the Wonderboy from Jerry you can really see what it looks like on this one

http://www.jerryspringertv.com/posse/kenny.htm

lavenderdreams79
03-06-2008, 02:14 PM
This man does have legs, as someone said there is something in front of him. I've saved the photo and will go into photoshop now and try to show you what I'm seeing and see if anyone else sees it as well...oddly enough, I know who phenolred is speaking of from the jerry springer show, but if he has one arm around the child and the other in the air, how would he be holding himself up?

I'm a long time lurker so I may need help posting the photo when I'm finished...

lavenderdreams79
03-06-2008, 02:20 PM
Ok, when I saved the photo, the white part on the bottom did not save. I don't believe it to be snow or part of the ground, maybe water damage or a place for the AP to put their name...

Now I circled in red what appears to be a net or maybe a garbage can, follow my circle and you can see the circle in black (not directly in front of the man, it blends in with his clothes)... or as someone said, and I'm sorry, I'm not sure who, it could be some kind of net he is holding. I think it distorts his bottom half...I have severe arthritis, so that could explain his hand. Does anyone else see this, now without the distracting white area? I think the photo and their faces are perfectly normal.

Anyone have any opinions?

Filly
03-06-2008, 08:16 PM
O.K. Lavender I see what you mean. Because next to the little boys right foot something is glimmering. O.K. However whatever the man is holding in the right hand it's like interweaved through his fingers. Like looks weaved in and out. Thank you for doing all that, Lavender. Now, if we could only know why the man had this photograph with him.

lavenderdreams79
03-06-2008, 09:15 PM
O.K. Lavender I see what you mean. Because next to the little boys right foot something is glimmering. O.K. However whatever the man is holding in the right hand it's like interweaved through his fingers. Like looks weaved in and out. Thank you for doing all that, Lavender. Now, if we could only know why the man had this photograph with him.

you're right Filly, it does look woven through his fingers...i'm sorry the photo isn't bigger, but if you can change your browser size and go about 400% you can see that whatever is in front of him is also a woven type material, like a net or an old metal garbage can. and that's the interesting part, why did he have this photo and only this one if any?

Filly
03-06-2008, 09:31 PM
you're right Filly, it does look woven through his fingers...i'm sorry the photo isn't bigger, but if you can change your browser size and go about 400% you can see that whatever is in front of him is also a woven type material, like a net or an old metal garbage can. and that's the interesting part, why did he have this photo and only this one if any?

This is so what I want to know. Oh hi Lavender. Pennsy here too. Philly. I'm not too good with all the browsers and all so I got my trusty magnifying glass. Yes, in front of him I see that gleaming thing. A reflective surface so a garbage can back then perhaps. Why that photograph? I can see having a picture, but usually that's sentimental or when you only have one and only one from childhood. It was important to him. I'm going to do some more searching on this. If all else fails that columnist is getting and e-mail from me. LOL Hope you're having a pain free day, Lavender.

Filly
03-06-2008, 09:41 PM
Alright we know this is Andrew's grandfather. He had four siblings. Nobody declared him missing even after years because he did that alot. He'd just go missing. His siblings had him declared dead after his mother passed away. If you have four siblings depending on where he fell in line maybe he didn't have many photographs of himself as a child? Maybe none other with him alone with his beloved grandpop?

lavenderdreams79
03-06-2008, 09:48 PM
This is so what I want to know. Oh hi Lavender. Pennsy here too. Philly. I'm not too good with all the browsers and all so I got my trusty magnifying glass. Yes, in front of him I see that gleaming thing. A reflective surface so a garbage can back then perhaps. Why that photograph? I can see having a picture, but usually that's sentimental or when you only have one and only one from childhood. It was important to him. I'm going to do some more searching on this. If all else fails that columnist is getting and e-mail from me. LOL Hope you're having a pain free day, Lavender.

Hey Filly - I'm near Pottsville. Magnifying glasses work well too!! Here is another copy of the photo and I used my skills a little further to make it bigger and highlight the "object" as I see it. Let me know if you find out anything about the picture, most people would think that the person in the pic must have been special or important but i know someone who's parents both sexually abused them and he still has photos of his parents hanging in his home, why? cuz they're still his mom and dad, so you just never know what people are thinking, especially without knowing the story.

Filly
03-06-2008, 10:31 PM
Now that's a big picture. Thank you, L. O.K. I just found this. One of Andrew's sisters wants to bring his body home and bury it there. The article goes on to state that Andrew suffered from deep depression. She believes he commited suicide there because at one time the family had a lovely vacation home there. It was a very happy time for them. She still has the shoes her brother wore in that photograph, and she has pictures of herself from that day. His sister is a sail maker. Sounds like he kept the photograph of a good memory from this article. Still I'm wondering what is in his grandfather's hand. It also looks like a bit of motion blur above the hand on the boys coat. I'll keep searching though.http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-libody0201,0,7617298.story

phenolred
03-07-2008, 07:50 AM
Ok so now I'm thinking the bottom half of the picture is missing maybe ripped years earlier.

I also from this from an article

The snapshot was intact in a glass frame and close to his heart under layers of winter clothing.

Filly
03-11-2008, 08:26 AM
The fact the photograph was behind glass and then in all that water is what gets me. When you have photographs behind glass and they get wet they are usually heavily damaged. Heck, just in water they get ruined.

Smugshots
03-11-2008, 10:08 AM
Hey Filly - I'm near Pottsville. Magnifying glasses work well too!! Here is another copy of the photo and I used my skills a little further to make it bigger and highlight the "object" as I see it. Let me know if you find out anything about the picture, most people would think that the person in the pic must have been special or important but i know someone who's parents both sexually abused them and he still has photos of his parents hanging in his home, why? cuz they're still his mom and dad, so you just never know what people are thinking, especially without knowing the story.

Maybe he's holding an Easter basket! It kind of looks like a toy bunny in the same hand holding the child to me.

Filly
03-11-2008, 10:07 PM
Maybe he's holding an Easter basket! It kind of looks like a toy bunny in the same hand holding the child to me.

It does look like a plush toy of some sort don't it? Magnified it looks as though something is weaved through the grandpop's fingers as well. Hey, maybe it's Palm. Maybe this was taken on Palm Sunday?

ravenwitch
02-01-2012, 10:37 PM
My house flooded once. The pictures that were tight in their frames were fine. If the back cardboard fit really tight and the tacks in the back held it snug, the pictures survived 36 hours underwater and were completely dry.
I don't know about several months though.