Evidence Discussion

[Tallytowngirl]

I thought maybe a new thread, just about the evidence found? In the van, elsewhere, and maybe (hopefully) what we will find out as Florida sifts through the lot.

My stomach doesn't feel so good, reading about the condoms, porn and personal lubricant... condoms? I don't want to go there.

[panglossian]

Good idea Tally!

How many hats does one murderer need? I don't think they said yet if any of those hats were in the ATM photos.

[Tallytowngirl]

Panglossian - sounds like he had a thing for hats... How many does a murderer need? I recall seeing him wearing only that black/dark knit thing?

For convenience sake, below are a couple of links to news stories about the evidence which contain links to the evidence lists.

Sweetmop's original post

http://wlos.com/newsroom/nc/topstory/topstory1.shtml

This evening's report from WLOS TV , in Asheville NC.

At the end of the article, there's a link to the search warrant, including the warrant for Hilton's van!

And here's another story about it: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15283884/detail.html

[Hiker]

Hats are an important part of staying warm and protected from the sun while hiking. They also serve to keep rain off your face or glasses. Having multiple hats for different sorts of weather and environments isn't all that unusual for hikers. I have five hiking hats myself:
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9275_365_l.jpg For hiking in serious sun & heat - deserts or above tree line
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9310_221_l.jpgWaterproof Booney - Summer hat for rainy places
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9725_010_l.jpgFleece Balaclava - for very cold weather and sleeping
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9284_294_l.jpgknit beanie with windproof fleece ear band - usually worn under another hat for extra warmth
http://www.campmor.com/images/cloth/34730/34730_red.jpgWindproof fleece with earflaps that will fold up when not needed

If I hiked or lived in the conditions GMH did, I probably would have some the artic / ski hats available and a down hood as well.

While the condoms and personal lubricant are worrisome, I'm assuming we would have heard if Meredith Emerson had been sexually assaulted by now.

[Native New Yorker]

Hiker- I do not think we will ever know about that aspect of the case. Since he confessed to her murder, the case is closed. Unless her family wanted that information, I think it would be off the books....
of course, I could be mistaken, but I think her family was spared a lot by the avoidance of a trial, not the least of which would have been this info in drawn out detail....

[Tallytowngirl]

While the condoms and personal lubricant are worrisome, I'm assuming we would have heard if Meredith Emerson had been sexually assaulted by now.

To my way of thinking, them not saying it is worrisome - I'd have thought if she hadn't been, they'd have said so.

Thanks for the hat pics! It seems he favored beanies?

For convenience sake, here's a reminder of what other evidence (what little we've been told) has been found. From Deadly encounters with Gary Hilton (http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:p19lQcqxstcJ:www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/02/09/hiltontrail_0210.html+%22gary+hilton%22+dumpster&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a) :

Through phone records, investigators traced Hilton's call to a QuikTrip in Forsyth County. There, inside a dumpster, were Emerson's wallet, driver's license, UGA ID, a seat belt fragment and three fleece garments. They were still wet with blood.
and
He carried armload after armload of sleeping bags, backpacks, bedrolls and blankets to a nearby dumpster, holding them at arms' length, like a soiled diaper.

[Tallytowngirl]

That "armload after armload of sleeping bags, backpacks..." in the dumpster - does that mean they are not included in the van list? If they aren't, that means there's even MORE duplication of things like sleeping bags. And since he was so keen to get rid of them, I assume they didn't legitimately belong to him.

How many sleeping bags does a murderer need?

[panglossian]

Hats are an important part of staying warm and protected from the sun while hiking. They also serve to keep rain off your face or glasses. Having multiple hats for different sorts of weather and environments isn't all that unusual for hikers. I have five hiking hats myself:
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9275_365_l.jpg For hiking in serious sun & heat - deserts or above tree line
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9310_221_l.jpgWaterproof Booney - Summer hat for rainy places
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9725_010_l.jpgFleece Balaclava - for very cold weather and sleeping
http://www.columbia.com/images/productImages/CU9284_294_l.jpgknit beanie with windproof fleece ear band - usually worn under another hat for extra warmth
http://www.campmor.com/images/cloth/34730/34730_red.jpgWindproof fleece with earflaps that will fold up when not needed

If I hiked or lived in the conditions GMH did, I probably would have some the artic / ski hats available and a down hood as well.

While the condoms and personal lubricant are worrisome, I'm assuming we would have heard if Meredith Emerson had been sexually assaulted by
now.

I hike and I also run competitively. I own a Nike that wicks moisture for both activities and it's 14 years old. If you find a great hat you keep it. I wear it year around and I live in the snowbelt, only adding earmuffs in winter. I have a snowboarders knit hat for cross country skiing. As a female, you would think I'd have 29 hats like Hilton but I only keep the 2 that work.

[Hiker]

Hiker- I do not think we will ever know about that aspect of the case. Since he confessed to her murder, the case is closed. Unless her family wanted that information, I think it would be off the books....
of course, I could be mistaken, but I think her family was spared a lot by the avoidance of a trial, not the least of which would have been this info in drawn out detail....Her autopsy report may still surface as this search warrant has.

[christine2448]

Complete list of evidence, what was taken from his van (return warrant):

Whenever Georgia Bureau of Investigation agents get a search warrant they’re required to file a document which lists everything they found inside. It is an extremely detailed document and the GBI told Channel 2’s Jodie Fleischer that some of the items listed are still considered evidence in other pending cases against Gary Hilton.

http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283380.pdf

[panglossian]

I know I am stuck on the hats, but a few years ago on a trip to Fla we noticed an unusual number of ball caps for men in neons, watermelon and the like. They weren't feminine, but kinda cool. The purples don't necessarily need to be women's purple caps but some hats from that period.

[Tallytowngirl]

He seemed to have quite the collection of purple and teal, too. He had something like 9 purple and teal mesh shirts, 5 white and purple mesh shirts, also purple shorts and pants, teal shorts and pants, purple and/or teal wind breakers... I know those colors are used for both men's and women's ski wear, so maybe those were the only colors in the discount bin at REI and he got them at a really good price. (or did he only kill hikers who wore purple and or teal?)

One pink REI jacket though, and I don't think that REI makes men's jackets in pink... And as drumstick pointed out pink gloves, which don't tend to be men's.

I wonder whether there are any pictures in that camera?

[SuziQ]

What I thought was interesting is the different sizes of clothing. The list reads like a wardrobe for several people. His victims came in all different shapes and sizes. The brand of items are indicative of what his victims would have owned not that of a homeless man living out of his van. IMO, alot of the items GMH had were either his victims or he had been stealing from campsites.

[Blondieskatz]

Is the the van that he had parked? Surely this isn't the one he was driving around in. It sounds like it was jam packed.

[Truly]

I believe this was the van he was driving; it had the stolen NC tags as well as the GA tags. The abandoned van had been stripped by the junkyard that it was towed to.

I'm wondering if he was using all this camping inventory as a lure to get people to follow him to his van- pretending he had great deals on quality gear? Purple/teal REI clothing in lots of sizes might be appealing to women hikers. I'll be interested to see which items were stolen, and if any of the clothing was new. He could have stolen from hikers or from stores.

I also agree these are not typical homeless guy items. I do think that Hilton knew a lot about hiking/backpacking gear. I don't think he just happened to get kicked out last October and suddenly acquired all this stuff.

[Hiker]

While REI is a popular brand among hikers, it is very unlikely that all of the items he found on victims would have been from this source and the same two colors. After a bit of research, I found that teal and purple are only choices in women's clothing at REI - and are not currently available.

I'm not convinced at least some of the purple & teal clothing from REI and assorted sizes wasn't being sold at a flea market or similar venue. Another more grim possibility is that he had this clothing for those he abducted to use before he killed them. After all, he has abducted only day hikers -- people who aren't carrying extra clothing - as far as we know.

[InterestedNHelping]

While reading the evidence list, I got to thinking...were there any sporting goods store robberies in recent months? Perhaps he and an accomplice, robbed some place? Or possibly someone else robbed it, and Hilton was his friend and thus got some of the goods? Any robberies back there, that anyone recalls?

[InterestedNHelping]

He also had many airsoft guns, which are from sporting goods stores too

[Truly]

Good points , Interested. I have seen the type of hiking gear described only in specialty backpacking-type places. I think the airguns would be found at a more hunting/fishing type sporting goods store. I honestly don't know if hunting/fishing stores carry Sierra Designs, NorthFace, etc. I'm guessing the clothes for a hunter are more Carhart, etc.? I can't see Hilton posing as a hunter! He was outfitted for hiking, IMO.

[panglossian]

I believe this was the van he was driving; it had the stolen NC tags as well as the GA tags. The abandoned van had been stripped by the junkyard that it was towed to.

I'm wondering if he was using all this camping inventory as a lure to get people to follow him to his van- pretending he had great deals on quality gear? Purple/teal REI clothing in lots of sizes might be appealing to women hikers. I'll be interested to see which items were stolen, and if any of the clothing was new. He could have stolen from hikers or from stores.

I also agree these are not typical homeless guy items. I do think that Hilton knew a lot about hiking/backpacking gear. I don't think he just happened to get kicked out last October and suddenly acquired all this stuff.

Your theory about his selling out of the van is very thought provoking. He wouldn't need a permit, no sales tax, no returns because he'd be gone, but on the other hand there hasn't been any trail entries of a parking lot salesman that I've seen. A real possibility, though.

[Tallytowngirl]

Good points , Interested. I have seen the type of hiking gear described only in specialty backpacking-type places. I think the airguns would be found at a more hunting/fishing type sporting goods store. I honestly don't know if hunting/fishing stores carry Sierra Designs, NorthFace, etc. I'm guessing the clothes for a hunter are more Carhart, etc.? I can't see Hilton posing as a hunter! He was outfitted for hiking, IMO.

didn't he have more than one police baton, too? I think he might have a bit of a "survivalist" mentality. I think one can get the air guns at flea markets - I know one of the local ones here has a "light" weaponry booth that is semi-permanently set up. Blow guns, cross bows, air guns, knives...

Campmor for instance carries a wide range of items, from Carhart to North Face. But isn't REI the only place that carries REI?

I'm extremely intrigued by the thought of him selling out of his van. But of course, where/how did he get the goods? It would be nice to know whether the things they found still had tags on them, or whether they had obviously been worn.

[DeltaDawn]

Where can I access the list of items they have from the warrant? The link above from Christine only shows me the first page and the list isn't attached.

Thank you for your kind help,
DD

[Tallytowngirl]

Where can I access the list of items they have from the warrant? The link above from Christine only shows me the first page and the list isn't attached.
DD

Sorry, I should have done this to start!

From http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15283884/detail.html (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15283884/detail.html)

Page 1 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283380.pdf)
Page 2 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283407.pdf)
Page 3 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283470.pdf)
Page 4 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283472.pdf)
Page 5 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283447.pdf)
Page 6 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283499.pdf)

[DeltaDawn]

Sorry, I should have done this to start!

From http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15283884/detail.html (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15283884/detail.html)

Page 1 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283380.pdf)
Page 2 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283407.pdf)
Page 3 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283470.pdf)
Page 4 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283472.pdf)
Page 5 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283447.pdf)
Page 6 (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2008/0212/15283499.pdf)


Thank you very much Tallytowngirl.

That list is quite interesting. Hopefully some of those items belonged to other missing people and can be connected to them through hair and DNA samples. That will help bring closure to some more families out there waiting for answers.

[Hiker]

As some else has mentioned in this forum, the wide variety of hats is - 29 in all - is strange. While having several hats for hiking in different temp and weather isn't odd - no one has an array of hats like the one found in Hilton's van. They are from various manufactures, in various colors, styles and sizes -- they may well turn out to be trophies from victims. I hope they do as the DNA from those would be pretty conclusive proof that GMH was connected to the disappearance and probable murder of anyone whose DNA is found in his possession and is missing.

Is there a DNA bank for missing people? Can families give items belonging to missing individuals - like a hairbrush - to LE to be analyzed for DNA and the DNA profile kept on file for comparison when unknown DNA is recovered from a source like Hilton's van?

[Truly]

The numerous baseball caps, shirts, bottle coolers is what actually gave me the idea that he might be vending. You know, that he might have been selling this stuff. Again, the answer lies in whether these items were new or not. But it is all the same kind of stuff. If it all came from victims, wouldn't there would be a bigger alarm that lots of hikers were missing? And what are the chances, as you pointed out, that he would only attack people wearing purple/teal REI shirts? It also occured to me that other places he might have tried to vend in addition to Trail Days, etc. would be the big outdoor camping music festivals. I wonder what type of music was on the cassette tapes?

[indigomood]

Evidence against Hilton to be tested..

Florida authorities will retrieve Thursday two vans and "tons" of evidence Georgia investigators collected against Gary Michael Hilton to see if the drifter and admitted murderer is also responsible for the death of a woman whose body was found in a Florida national forest in December.

Cagle declined to describe the evidence that could tie Hilton to the Bryants, who were abducted from North Carolina's Pisgah National Forest on Oct. 20, or to the death of Sunday school teacher and nurse Cheryl Hodges Dunlap, who was decapitated like Emerson.

But Cagle said Georgia investigators found evidence that will be "helpful to North Carolina and Florida. We found things Florida and North Carolina can use."

Authorities believe Hilton lived out of his van in the months leading up to his arrest.

In that time, he amassed an expensive array of outdoor wear and equipment, including 20 shirts, a dozen pair of pants, eight jackets — in sizes ranging from medium to extra-large — plus 29 hats, two pairs of boots and three sleeping bags.

Most came from REI, but Cagle said someone had removed the tags the high-end outdoor retailer attaches to its products to track purchasers.

"My gut feeling is, he was stealing [some of] it from camp sites," Cagle said.

*more at link* http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/02/13/hiker_0214.html

(bolding mine for emphasis)

[aj1020]

I'm so glad to hear that Georgia, Florida, and NC are working together and cooperating with the sharing of the evidence. Sometimes LE can get a little "sticky fingered" when it comes to situations like this, but it's heartening to see that it doesn't have to be that way!

[Native New Yorker]

And I have to hand it to the AJC for their fine coverage of this case.. one of my favorite newspapers in all of the places I have lived....

[Truly]

Thanks, indigomood, for that link. Hmmm...tags removed. For some reason that strikes me as new - and possibly stolen - REI merchandise. I hope that anybody who has had stuff stolen from campsites anywhere will see this list and possibly pinpoint when and where Hilton was located when other assaults and murders occured.

[indigomood]

Thanks, indigomood, for that link. Hmmm...tags removed. For some reason that strikes me as new - and possibly stolen - REI merchandise. I hope that anybody who has had stuff stolen from campsites anywhere will see this list and possibly pinpoint when and where Hilton was located when other assaults and murders occured.

you're welcome Truly :blowkiss:

[Hiker]

....laces he might have tried to vend in addition to Trail Days, etc. would be the big outdoor camping music festivals. I wonder what type of music was on the cassette tapes?Other than one guy that thinks he used his phone in Damascus, VA, during Trail Days, no one has seen Hilton at any of the hiker gatherings.

Having the tags removed likely means the merchandise was stolen from REI instead of from campers - or it was wholesaled out and or donated to something like a homeless shelter -- many manufactures do this and remove the tags beforehand so the clothing doesn't end up on Ebay.

[Native New Yorker]

Indigo, thanks for the info about the tags...that had puzzled me...that the stuff looked new, with no tags...
Hiker, I think you are right....Hilton is just the type to steal from a homeless shelter...
but mixed in with all of the REI stuff is clothing from his victims...of that I am sure....

[Hiker]

...but mixed in with all of the REI stuff is clothing from his victims...of that I am sure....I believe this as well. I'm nearly positive the pink items aren't his... and I really hope they try to get DNA from all the hats. I just can't shake the sick feeling those hats are his trophies.

[indigomood]

Indigo, thanks for the info about the tags...that had puzzled me...that the stuff looked new, with no tags...
Hiker, I think you are right....Hilton is just the type to steal from a homeless shelter...
but mixed in with all of the REI stuff is clothing from his victims...of that I am sure....

you're welcome Native New Yorker :)

[Tallytowngirl]

Having the tags removed likely means the merchandise was stolen from REI instead of from campers - or it was wholesaled out and or donated to something like a homeless shelter -- many manufactures do this and remove the tags beforehand so the clothing doesn't end up on Ebay.

I know REI donates to the community, but it's usually in the form of money for projects, volunteering with community parks projects and that sort of thing. I've never heard of them donating top of the line hiking gear to homeless shelters. I'm of the opinion this stuff was stolen from an REI shop/outlet or from campers.

Lots of outdoor and exercise items don't have tags in them any more - the info. is printed straight on the material. I think any of the items that are listed on the evidence sheet with sizes noted probably were like this - the sizes were printed on the material and the items never had tags to begin with.

I personally remove my tags because I don't like the itching. super light through hikers sometimes remove tags just to save weight.

[MeoW333]

I am so thankful LE are checking out both of his vans *whew* even though one was stripped, it still should have evidence. Also it would be interesting to know what they find out of it. Depending on how long ago Hilton last used that van, it may help in finding more victims.

"Florida authorities will retrieve Thursday two vans and "tons" of evidence "
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/02/13/hiker_0214.html

[christine2448]

Interesting, thanks for the update MeoW333.

[MeoW333]

Interesting, thanks for the update MeoW333.

Your welcome, i am curious as to if they find any more blood samples in the abandoned van as well.

[Tallytowngirl]

Published Feb. 14
Florida Officials Seize Hilton's Vans (http://www.wxia11.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=111285)


Nothing new about the evidence, but contains a video of the GBI loading up the old van that Hilton abandoned to send it to Florida. There’s not much left of the van.

The video mentions that the GBI is putting together a time line of Hilton’s whereabouts for the last few years – it sounds as if they’re looking for links between Hilton and other crimes.

The article also states “A GBI Special Agent John Cagle said Thursday that investigators believe Hilton stole the REI clothing from hikers and campers. REI clothing has a tag which allows tracking of where the item was purchased, but Hilton had cut out all of the tags.”

[Native New Yorker]

Thanks, Tally...that last bit of info is pretty scary and creepy.

[Woofie]

Found this: http://glennindawson.blogspot.com/

Think this guy has been reporting his findings on the NG forum. Be sure to read the comments that he makes to his own blogs. Kind of hard to follow but interesting.

[panglossian]

Found this: http://glennindawson.blogspot.com/

Think this guy has been reporting his findings on the NG forum. Be sure to read the comments that he makes to his own blogs. Kind of hard to follow but interesting.

Hi Woofie and thanks for the link. It was a good point he made about Tabor claiming Hilton was calm and the waitresses saying loud, argumentative and nearly hung up on Tabor a few times. I do recall reading that from the waitresses before. I guess Tabor considered that calm?

[MeoW333]

Woofie, welcome to Websleuths, and this is a great link, there's a lot of interesting things on it.

http://glennindawson.blogspot.com/2008/02/ago-mr.html
"I am confident that I have located 5 of his killing fields in the area known as "Wolfscratch". I ordered the K-9 Rescue to verify the graves: one grave read 18+ bodies. The GBI blocked them even tohough I would have paid for them out of my pocket."

I'm curious as to how valid it is what the poster of this says. 18+ bodies?? Wow.. i think they need to take him seriously if what he is saying is true, it could tie up a lot of unsolved cases over the years.

[MeoW333]

Glenn Dawson seems to have a lot of useful interesting information about Hilton on his site, i think we should invite him to websleuths.

[Woofie]

Glenn Dawson seems to have a lot of useful interesting information about Hilton on his site, i think we should invite him to websleuths.

I was haunted by that picture of those jeans in my dreams last night. I agree, I think he does have alot of information. GBI has no reason to pursue GMH anymore. Their case is closed. Who are these other victims?

[Tallytowngirl]

Glenn Dawson seems to have a lot of useful interesting information about Hilton on his site, i think we should invite him to websleuths.

Glenn Adams posts on Topix's Wes Side Story blog about AT hikers (http://www.topix.com/forum/source/wxia/TVA1VO3PNQ6I7C4GU), and on Gretawire (http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2008/01/08/update-on-a-story-we-have-been-covering-a-cold-blooded-crime/). I think perhaps other places too, but those are where remember seeing him quite a lot. He very well may have found a cabin where Hilton stayed off and on, but Adams also blogs about how the "demon of Hilton entered his head"...

[Native New Yorker]

Yeah, and he has a pic of himself after the 'demon entered" where he says he looks just like Hilton.

[MeoW333]

Well, if we can sort through the "demon part" from the factual information, we may have something that will help with some unsolved cases. We'll just have to "sort" through.

[Hiker]

Glenn in Dawson doesn't look too credible to me. While it would not surprise me to find that GMH sometime slept in abandoned houses or barns or outbuildings, this blogger provides no reason for choosing this particular domicile as Hilton's "den" - nothing about the van having been seen there, nothing about witnesses seeing GMH there, nothing concrete at all -- just his own seemingly supernatural divining abilities. :rolleyes: It is little wonder GBI is ignoring this guy.

Then he goes on to say that he used a dowsing rod to identify grave sites and that the rod was capable of identifying the number of bodies in said grave sites. I'd like to take this guy to a cemetery with unmarked graves and see if he could find the burial sites - my guess is he couldn't.

Someone asked where the other bodies are - in Glenn's imagination is my guess. While I believe GMH has killed others, I don't think he reused sites much if at all. His nomadic pattern leads me to believe his victims will be widely distributed - not 18 deep at a specific site.

[Truly]

I agree, Hiker. This is apparently the same glennadams which Marchmallow pointed out to us in the 'Deadly Encounters...' thread. He was posting long comments on a news website about demons and dousing. His daughter at one point posted begging her dad to get help for his PTSD. I think he lives nearby, and Meredith's murder has affected him tremendously. Hilton has hurt many people.

[panglossian]

Someone asked where the other bodies are - in Glenn's imagination is my guess. While I believe GMH has killed others, I don't think he reused sites much if at all. His nomadic pattern leads me to believe his victims will be widely distributed - not 18 deep at a specific site.

Meredith and John didn't fit a pattern of reused sites. I can't understand what Glenn is basing this theory on.
I also was confused when I tried to access the Hilton/cannibal article and found nothing referring to the title of cannibal.
His is on base with some things, but some others need clarification.

[Truly]

I did read most of his posts on Marchmallow's link, pang. Glenn believes that the spirits of all the people whom Hilton has murdered have entered into him and he wants to help them rest in peace. His heart is good, and he does have some very specific and curious things to say. I just had to stop reading when his daughter came on begging him to please return to his family and reality. I would not discourage others from reading...it just struck me as a man having a very personal traumatic time. I hope he finds peace.

[Tallytowngirl]

Meredith and John didn't fit a pattern of reused sites. I can't understand what Glenn is basing this theory on.
I also was confused when I tried to access the Hilton/cannibal article and found nothing referring to the title of cannibal.
His is on base with some things, but some others need clarification.

No, neither did Cheryl fit a pattern of reused sites, so far as I know.

I think Glenn is basing his theory on his supernatural dowsing ability. AS for the cannibal thing, Glenn equates Hilton with Albert Hamilton Fish, who was reported to be a cannibal as well as serial killer.

Read some of his stuff over at Topix, it's a little "out there"... Adams has been very active tracking what he thinks are Hilton's footsteps, and may have found some things. However, I think Hiker is right, poor fellow might be suffering PTSD or the like. I wouldn't count on 18+ bodies showing up until the GBI digs them up...

[panglossian]

... AS for the cannibal thing, Glenn equates Hilton with Albert Hamilton Fish, who was reported to be a cannibal as well as serial killer.
Thanks, I never heard of Fish before. Makes sense now.