Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[capricorn]

It was just a matter of time until the TX law enforcement stepped in to let this group know we wouldn't tolerate a situation that exists on the AZ/Utah border. That one phone call was all it took.

There was nothing to stop the group from buying the land and building the facilities. They can pay property taxes and add to the local economy, which is well and good.

The slogan "Don't Mess With Texas" should not be underestimated by any group hoping to stay under the radar in any of our communities. I love that about our state! :)

[sweetmop]

Apparently someone has alot of money.
Who was funding this " city ", their compound?

Where did all of the financial assets come from?

[DEPUTYDAWG]

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2004-11-01/reporter.php

That is the Texas Monthly article I remember reading a few years ago.

It mentions Flora Jessop, who's been mentioned here lately.

[golfmom]

Apparently someone has alot of money.
Who was funding this " city ", their compound?

Where did all of the financial assets come from?

Here's an article regarding the groups financial assets.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy444.html

[golfmom]

This is a huge and comprehensive list of articles on the group:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html

[cheko1]

Apparently someone has alot of money.
Who was funding this " city ", their compound?

Where did all of the financial assets come from?

On Nancy Grace they stated the women were on welfare......
So it sounds like the State of Texas was supporting them.

[sweetmop]

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/features/polygamy/story.html?id=0af3cd18-ac35-4694-8d46-e2e87230ed01&k=15549

Very interesting article. Unbelieveable.

[sweetmop]

Here's an article regarding the groups financial assets.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy444.html

Thank you golfmom. :)

[ThoughtFox]

Watching this unfold on TV and reading these stories about the victims (thanks, Sweetmop - unbelievable!) makes me realize how much isolation played a part. These groups live out in the desert, out in the country, away from any help, with few ways to make money if they do leave. It's alot easier to track someone down in a rural area, too. And have you noticed - as with Waco, the men are in charge and make all the twisted rules. The mothers are brainwashed through fear and intimidation, and they pass that on to their children, both boys and girls.

I see the boys as victims too. Who would want their son forced into marriage at the age of 16 with a girl he doesn't love, in a situation where he might have to beat or rape her in order to "do God's will." These boys have to live in fear, too, of beatings or banishment from the Alpha Males who run the group. If all these boys know about human relationships is beating women into submission, then that is what they will do as they grow up.

It's all about the selfish lust of the male leaders, and has nothing to do with Christianity. There's nothing about love or forgiveness, and all about damnation if you don't follow the sick rules.

I'm really not sure why it takes so long for any state to do something about the welfare of these children, including these mothers who are still minors themselves. It's monstrous. How many more people have to suffer this kind of crap in the name of religion?

[barb0301]

Very interesting headlines in Eldorado - jackhammers now being brought in? http://www.myeldorado.net/


WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Texana]

It was just a matter of time until the TX law enforcement stepped in to let this group know we wouldn't tolerate a situation that exists on the AZ/Utah border. That one phone call was all it took.

There was nothing to stop the group from buying the land and building the facilities. They can pay property taxes and add to the local economy, which is well and good.

The slogan "Don't Mess With Texas" should not be underestimated by any group hoping to stay under the radar in any of our communities. I love that about our state! :)

My thoughts exactly. :clap: :clap: :clap:

People do mistake the independent spirit of Texans for apathy to all things. It's not the same at all.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Very interesting headlines in Eldorado - jackhammers now being brought in? http://www.myeldorado.net/


WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, underground bunkers/safes...what?

[Glow]

IIRC, a reporter just angrily asked about families being ripped apart and they aren't receiving an answer as to why.

Im glad that someone at least asked the question. It needs to be asked.

[trixie]

I heard one of the reporters at the news conference today ask if cadaver dogs had been brought in. I wonder if they think someone might be buried under concrete?

[SuziQ]

I heard one of the reporters at the news conference today ask if cadaver dogs had been brought in. I wonder if they think someone might be buried under concrete?

Not to say it has anything to do with this case. But it's always been said that because of how women and children are moved around to the different compounds and never heard from again, they could have been murdered for all you know. Come to think of it, how are death investigations handled? They probably aren't investigated at all.

[WhitneyLea]

That local site just said a man has been found hiding in the brush near the temple, and was in possession of an "item."

???

[SuziQ]

http://www.myeldorado.net/

More at link, to paraphraise....Male suspect found hiding in brush in posession of an "item". Four children and adult hiding in a shop building. Another bus seen heading to ranch. One elderly many taken by ambulance with stroke like symtoms.

[barb0301]

I have a feeling that this story is going to get bigger and bigger as the days and weeks go by.

[SuziQ]

Thank goodness for that little paper in Eldorado, or we'd have no updates at all.

[concernedperson]

http://www.myeldorado.net/

More at link, to paraphraise....Male suspect found hiding in brush in posession of an "item". Four children and adult hiding in a shop building. Another bus seen heading to ranch. One elderly many taken by ambulance with stroke like symtoms.
What the heck is going on? This is uncovering a really bad situation. People are stressed and this is causing more problems.

[Truly]

Not to say it has anything to do with this case. But it's always been said that because of how women and children are moved around to the different compounds and never heard from again, they could have been murdered for all you know. Come to think of it, how are death investigations handled? They probably aren't investigated at all.

Good point about death certificates, SusiQ. From DeputyDawgs Texas Monthly link above (which also tells us a bit about the couple who publish the little Eldorado newspaper. And the Elgoatarod! :) ):
'None of the marriages are civil ceremonies or registered with the state, which prevents authorities from prosecuting the FLDS for breaking laws prohibiting bigamy or polygamy'

The temple is a nine story structure built out of concrete, and pilots photographed massive concrete foundations. I hope they are not looking for burials. Has anybody seen any photos of teenage men or boys? The news reports I have seen have only shown lines of young women and girls.

[SuziQ]

Has anybody seen any photos of teenage men or boys? The news reports I have seen have only shown lines of young women and girls.

I have not seen a single boy. Creepy. Anyone else?

[SuziQ]

The FLDS can't be immune to crime that afflicts the rest of society. They should have a reasonable amount of the same percentage that the rest of the population does. Maybe it is less, but it can't be non existent can it?

[barb0301]

I have not seen a single boy. Creepy. Anyone else?

I saw some young boys, under 10 I would say, but none older. Very creepy !! And I think the judge had issued orders to remove all boys under the age of 17. I'll see if I can find that link.

here it is - ordered all boys under age 18 to be removed per the Salt Lake Tribune: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8822573

[SuziQ]

In this series of pics you can see some little boys.

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,3720,00.html#1_0

ETA: responding to barbs post, the little boys are very young.

[txsvicki]

Even if it is 401 children and they all decide to stick together on the good side of the FLDS they are still children. Authorities won't let them be returned when the investigation is over IMO. I would bet there will be signs of sexual abuse in some of the 10-11 year olds and at that juncture all children will be permanently removed.

That's what I was thinking unless they go by each individual family. Take the innocent kids away and give them to decent foster families, and run those adult freaks out of Texas. We don't need them here. Of course they won't end up charging all the adults with anything.

[Truly]

The FLDS can't be immune to crime that afflicts the rest of society. They should have a reasonable amount of the same percentage that the rest of the population does. Maybe it is less, but it can't be non existent can it?

I would guess that the amount of petty crimes might be lower in such a tightly controlled compound. There are no TV's to steal, and probably very little private space to hide a stolen TV.

However, it is looking like the rate of the more egregious crimes, such as sexual assault against minor children, may be exponentially off the charts. Concievably, 100% of the male leaders in this case may have each had sex with dozens of minor girls. They are sexual predators who have set up the conditions to repeatedly offend their own children for generations.

[BhamMama]

True, and that most likely wouldn't apply to anyone under the age of 6 or whatever the school age is in Texas. It may not apply in this case, but I think witholding education from a child would at least be considered neglect.

As long as they followed Texas State standards in schooling they have every right to not allow CPS on the grounds. Texas CPS can not enter a home based on any allegations of education neglect. It's not against the law to home school in Texas in any form they wish.


Compulsory School Age
"a child who is at least six years of age, or who is younger than six years of age and has previously been enrolled in first grade, and who has not yet reached the child's 18th birthday."

There is one option:

Legal: Establish and operate a home school as a private school.
No Attendance records need be kept nor turned in to the State
Subjects: same as public schools including good citizenship.
No qualifications for parents to teach at home
They do not have to give notice that they are schooling at home
No record keeping is required to be kept nor turned in to the State
No testing is required

Basically, it's not the business of the State of Texas how they school.
Since they have such open laws on schooling I doubt it was for educational reasons. And if they cite educational reasons at any point they can be slapped with a lawsuit faster than they can say boo.


I'm having a hard time with the taking away of children of all the parents based on one phone call about a specific person. I also have a problem with them saying the mothers could leave at any time. Like they are going to just up and leave their kids in a situation not of their making.

[mysteriew]

On Nancy Grace they stated the women were on welfare......
So it sounds like the State of Texas was supporting them.

And there can be a motive for "marrying" the children early. The earlier they marry, the earlier they can have babies and the more babies they can have. The more babies, the more money.

They won't be getting a fortune, but when they combine that with the 'tithes' received from the ones who live off the compound it will add up. And they can keep compound expenses down by buying in bulk, making their own and doing without "in the name of God."

With what they do make off of the congregation they can then enter into financial businesses that make more money.

[Leila]

I've been following this story through media reports, and didn't learn until this afternoon that this was being discussed here at WS. It's taken me a while to read the entire thread.

I read quite a bit about the FLDS last year when when Warren Jeffs was arrested and went to trial.

I think many of those who are members of the FLDS know no other way of life. The sect has been around for more than 100 years, and in that time there's been many generations, especially when you consider that the girls marry so young. For the most part they are kept isolated from any outside influences. I think it's within the realm of possibility that between isolation and indoctrination, the adult members have no concept of their way of life being wrong. It's an accepted way of life.

From what I've read, the children receive limited education, certainly nothing or very little about modern science or modern history (outside of history as it pertains to the LDS/FLDS religious history). Their education revolves around what they need to know to be self sufficient within the FLDS community. They need to know how to read, write, and have basic math skills in order to plant crops, to cook, to sew clothing, etc.

Only in recent years have we learned of some leaving or being expelled from the FLDS and reporting on what goes on within the FLDS community. Its without a doubt a male dominated cult with women relegated to servitude. From what I've read, I have no doubt that abuse of children is an issue. I think that when the charges are known, the abuse will be extensive.

[Glow]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3004779

"It appears they may be settling in for a long ordeal here," Mankin said. "They've also got a no-fly zone 5,000 feet above and five miles around. You can't even fly over the thing now."


But everybody please remember this is all just being handled on a local level. There is NO federal involvement at all.

And also please remember that there could have been NO more efficient way to accomplish the same thing while at the same time not trampling on peoples civil rights.

For example, cordoning off the compound and removing the adult males while leaving the women and children in their enviroment and then interviewing them would have been ...well stupid actually...then you would only have less then 100 adult males in custody. You know, the "perps"?

Much better to have upwards of 500 women and children displaced without warning. Oh yeah, much better use of manpower and money.

[philamena]

Glow,
Hello, I must ask, do you know people in this compound or in that part of TX? I'm not 'getting' your point of view.
If 401 kids are being neglected and abused, I don't give a rats ass about the civil rights of the people who live there.

There is a REASON this is happening.
I'm trying to understand why you're so against the search and the way it's being done.

IF these people are so innocent, why are they running and hiding?

Another thing, you keep saying the women and children should be together....how do you know that these women aren't involved in the abuse???

[mysteriew]

You know all the discussion about the women/mothers in this has gotten me to thinking.

I still think the way they entered the compound and removing the children was according to standard operating procedure and was correct.

But you all have convicinced me that it was in removing the children that they deviated from the norm and were most likely incorrect.

Standard procedure is for the social worker(s) to remove the children, leaving the mothers. Those children would then be placed according to what was available and as close to age appropriate as possible.

Teen mothers for instance would go to facilities for teens, and their babies would go to foster homes. Children whose mothers were adults would either go into teen facilities or foster homes depending on their ages- maybe with their siblings, maybe not.

Of course that might traumatize the kids more. But that happens every day and social workers cope with that every day. With every other citizen and their children and is usually better than any abuse they may have come out of. And most kids survive it ok, though some better than others. But that way the mothers rights would have been protected. They could have remained in their homes and with their husbands.

And for the thirty days or so that their children were in foster care or other system provision, the mothers could have spoken with their husbands and the attorneys while they waited for visitation that they might or might not get. Just like any other mother in a situation where their children are determined to be in abusive situations. And while they were waiting, they could be threatened with also being arrested because they didn't protect their children from the abusive behaviors.

You all have convinced me, they should not have been given any of the special treatment like they have received so far. They should have been left in their homes, with their husbands- just like any other citizen and with any other citizens rights.

[philamena]

Maybe the women were removed so THEY would be protected.

[barb0301]

You know all the discussion about the women/mothers in this has gotten me to thinking.

I still think the way they entered the compound and removing the children was according to standard operating procedure and was correct.

But you all have convicinced me that it was in removing the children that they deviated from the norm and were most likely incorrect.

Standard procedure is for the social worker(s) to remove the children, leaving the mothers. Those children would then be placed according to what was available and as close to age appropriate as possible.

Teen mothers for instance would go to facilities for teens, and their babies would go to foster homes. Children whose mothers were adults would either go into teen facilities or foster homes depending on their ages- maybe with their siblings, maybe not.

Of course that might traumatize the kids more. But that happens every day and social workers cope with that every day. With every other citizen and their children and is usually better than any abuse they may have come out of. And most kids survive it ok, though some better than others. But that way the mothers rights would have been protected. They could have remained in their homes and with their husbands.

And for the thirty days or so that their children were in foster care or other system provision, the mothers could have spoken with their husbands and the attorneys while they waited for visitation that they might or might not get. Just like any other mother in a situation where their children are determined to be in abusive situations. And while they were waiting, they could be threatened with also being arrested because they didn't protect their children from the abusive behaviors.

You all have convinced me, they should not have been given any of the special treatment like they have received so far. They should have been left in their homes, with their husbands- just like any other citizen and with any other citizens rights.

I think that in this particular case, we will eventually see Adult Protective Services brought in to handle certain cases with the women, if they choose to talk at all. If women are of age, and being beaten by their husbands, mistreated, etc., then those cases will transfer over to APS. It's a possibility, maybe remote, but a possibility nontheless.

[barb0301]

For example, cordoning off the compound and removing the adult males while leaving the women and children in their enviroment and then interviewing them would have been ...well stupid actually...then you would only have less then 100 adult males in custody. You know, the "perps"?

Much better to have upwards of 500 women and children displaced without warning. Oh yeah, much better use of manpower and money.

I don't think there's any legal grounds for removing the men, unless you arrest them. There are no grounds to arrest them as of yet. No charges have been brought against any of them except 1, and he is supposedly in Arizona.

There were legal grounds to remove the children for up to 14 days and then hold a hearing to defend the decision to the judge. At that point, a determination will be made to either continue to hold them in state care or return them to their family at the compound. After that, hearings will be held either every month or every 3 months. (judge's discretion I believe).Also have to give the family time to get a lawyer, the child's adlitem lawyer has a lot of work to do along with the CASA caseworker assigned to the child. All working together to try to find out this child's history and what is in this child's best interest going forward. Where will this child be safe and well cared for? That's the ultimate goal - to answer that 1 question.

[Taximom]

Wow, I just watched video of those sweet, innocent children in their little outfits being rounded up. It is so heartbreaking to watch. I was very glad the video was blurry (on purpose) because the news media should not be showing these children. They wouldn't do that in any other child services case.

[trixie]

Did any of you watch that press conference? She said they were there for the children and the mothers were told they were welcome to come along if they wanted to. They left it up to them. She said the ADULT mothers weren't removed but given the choice if they wanted to come with their kids. ADULT is the operative word. I'm sure there were many more children/mothers with children than adult/mothers with children. What is sad to me is I hope no adult mother simply let her child go without going along.

[Glow]

Glow,
Hello, I must ask, do you know people in this compound or in that part of TX? I'm not 'getting' your point of view.
If 401 kids are being neglected and abused, I don't give a rats ass about the civil rights of the people who live there.

There is a REASON this is happening.
I'm trying to understand why you're so against the search and the way it's being done.

IF these people are so innocent, why are they running and hiding?

Another thing, you keep saying the women and children should be together....how do you know that these women aren't involved in the abuse???


Hi philamena,

I am just a middle aged woman living in Fla. and I have no affiliation with this group at all. I am concerned however about the increasing role that government plays in the everyday life of the citizens of our country.

It should go without saying that I hate child molesters and religious extremists but I feel that I must state that again.

I am looking beyond the obvious here. The obvious being the men running this compound need to be stopped. Period.

Ok, so then what? How much force should the government use before they have proof? Could there have been ANY other way to handle this and still accomplish a good result?

If you were the ONE truly innocent woman (for sake of argument) in that compound and you were told that you had to hand your child over OR leave everything with NO notice and come along and be "detained" indefinitely how would you react? I would not react well. I don't think throwing the widest net possible and sort the innocents out later is called for here.

This is how it begins when people hand things over to the government. First the fringe people that no one likes are attacked. When that goes well then it's on to the next group. By the time the mainstream is under scrutiny by their own government it is too late.

That concept is called Fascism. That is where the rights of the individual must bow to the rights of the common good as defined by the state. Most people confuse it with Nazism but they are different.

Speaking of Nazism, even Hitler didn't begin with persecuting the Jews. He started with the gypsy's. People that the mainstream didn't care about or identify with. People supported him in that.

I am trying to look at what is going on here ASIDE from the fact that men have molested under aged females. I was attempting to look harder at the governments response to this obvious wrong.

I have been attempting to look at the broad range implications and I guess that isnt of interest to anyone but me right now :blushing:

Thank you for asking though...I appreciate the open mindedness.


I borrowed this from the thread about national identity cards but it can just as easily apply here.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[Salem]

Maybe the women were removed so THEY would be protected.

I think the mothers were allowed to go because once this thing got underway, CPS realized there was no way they were going to be able to place 500 children in foster care in 24 hours or so. Can you imagine? That is probably somewhere near the number of children in the entire state of California that are dealt with on a daily basis. How, in a small, rural area, are you going to handle that all at once? This is major. Someone has to look out for those babies, who better than the mothers, if it does not appear that the mothers are the abusers?

And, to my way of thinking, if the only way to get to heaven is through your husband, if you really wanted to stay with your husband, wouldn't you? Obviously God would understand, because it is your husband that is your salvation. I think some of these women wanted out. Maybe not all, but some of them. It could also be that with Jeffs in jail, things have deteriorated to a point that even the hard core women are now praying for something different, better and hopefully not worse.

I too, am concerned about the lack of teenage boys. Not quite sure what to think about that, but it bothers me.

Salem

[LinasK]

Everybody knew they were there. I think it's interesting that all it took to get them out of there was one (or 2) phone call from a 16 year old girl. So if a 16 year old girl from every cult called authorities eventually all the cults would be eliminated? I don't think that is a bad thing. Women and children HAVE no civil liberties in those compounds. I wonder how many women and teen girls fell to their knees in prayers of gratitude when all this started happening? Most, I bet.

:clap: :clap: :clap: My thoughts exactly!

[ThoughtFox]

I have not seen a single boy. Creepy. Anyone else?
So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.

Sounds like some bodies are buried out there somewhere, male or female. :mad: Or both.

And Glow: I respect other opinions, but these are children, and if their mothers and fathers don't want to protect them, I pray to God that someone will.

Sometimes the State looks out for people and helps people, and children deserve better than to be abused by those too crazy or frightened to care about their welfare.

[Salem]

So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.

Sounds like some bodies are buried out there somewhere, male or female. :mad: Or both.

Oh my goodness....... I hope not! I think they chase off any young men who show any type of rebellous streak, but I wasn't thinking they might have killed them.

I do wish we would hear news that they have found the young woman who made the original call.

You know, I don't think CPS knew what they were getting into. Wasn't it rumored that there were only 200 or so people at that compound? Who would have thought they were going to end up with 400 children plus a hundred or so more adults?

Salem

[LinasK]

To me taking the women and kids out is no big deal. If they went into a house that was being used as a meth lab then they would remove them from there for their own protection. Seems to me that is what they are doing here as well, getting them out of a 'harmful' environment. And yes I think our gov't has the right to make that decision to a certain extent, if not then we could argue that no gov't agency should ever be allowed to go into a home where the children were being abused and remove them. Marrying your kids off at 13 or 14 or even 16 to 50 year old men is abuse and it does not matter if you were brought up in the environment and told it was the right thing or not, it is abuse. And people can wrap it in 'religion', but it's just a group of weak men that could not keep a women anyother way than brainwashing them. :twocents:
I agree!:clap: :clap: :clap:

[philamena]

Glow,
Thanks so much for the well thought out and well written reply. ;)
It certainly clears things up for me.

Salem,


I too, am concerned about the lack of teenage boys. Not quite sure what to think about that, but it bothers me


That scares me too. omg...the implications. :o

[SuziQ]

So what do you think? These older boys who supposedly "ran away" may have been right there all along? They wouldn't want boys coming back causing trouble or going to the police. That makes sense to me.



Have we heard that they ran away in this case, or do you mean the practice of running them off? Maybe the media only shows the women and children pics because it sells more. I know one thing. I would feel much better if it were confirmed that there are in fact boys from the ages of 10-17 in state custody. Because to think they are nowhere is just too outrageous...right?

Does anyone one wonder what kind of sweeping abuse the state has proof of to remove hundreds of kids? We know for the most part the women and kids aren't talking and there wasn't enough time for a case by case file to be made to present to the judge. So what did the authorities walk in a see that made them say "they all need to be removed...NOW". It appears that one broad penstroke may have been used to remove them all. At the presser, CPS pretty much stated they have proof of harm or potential harm that will be filed with the court and the public can view them.

[SuziQ]

I heard one of the reporters at the news conference today ask if cadaver dogs had been brought in. I wonder if they think someone might be buried under concrete?

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

[Floh]

Those who have yet to learn about the 'lost boys' will find out something from this site:

The "Lost Boys"

They are just young men (mostly young teenagers) who have become competition to the older men who want more (and usually much younger) wives. They are kicked out of their homes and run out of town. They often leave with just the shirts on their backs. Most have minimum education and few life-skills. But, the Prophet said that they must go away. So their parents cast them out like unwanted pets. Now, they are out on the street trying to fend for themselves. They are known as the "Lost Boys".

Read the tragic stories of their attempting to survive and to integrate into mainstream society. These articles are in chronological order.


http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html

[trixie]

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

From what In remember she just gave a quick very professional reply that she didn't have that information or something similar to that.

[Leila]

Do remember what the reaction to that question was? Facial expressions or body language? It's late, but tomorrow I might have to watch that presser and see if I can catch that. I saw the presser already in progress today.

The local newspaper mentioned jackhammers now being used, and there's reports of tunnels under the temple. Pilots flying over the area when the temple was under construction attest to a huge foundation being built.

It sounds like the authorities feel there's hiding places that haven't been uncovered. If they did, in fact, mention cadaver dogs, then there's a possibility that the police suspect more than abuse.

There's a lot about this that makes me believe that whatever is going on in that compound is major. The authorities went into the compound acting on a complaint of abuse with a minor. Whatever they found there resulted in an almost immediate decision to remove all children and those women who voluntarily wanted to be removed.

One of the reports in the local newspaper is concerning........why was a man hiding in the brush, and what was the "item" he had?

[Trino]

I think the mothers were allowed to go because once this thing got underway, CPS realized there was no way they were going to be able to place 500 children in foster care in 24 hours or so. Can you imagine? That is probably somewhere near the number of children in the entire state of California that are dealt with on a daily basis. How, in a small, rural area, are you going to handle that all at once? This is major. Someone has to look out for those babies, who better than the mothers, if it does not appear that the mothers are the abusers? Salem

What ARE authorities going to do with all of these children? They can't place them all in foster care now because there aren't enough foster homes, which is why everyone is being housed in one big facility.

[ttrachel04]

I'm watching the TODAY show right now, and Matt Lauer just interviewed a woman who ran away from the sect years ago. She said that in her opinion, these men are not practicing any form of religion, but they're pedophiles hiding behind a religion. She said part of the reason she's speaking out is because her daughter will be 14 soon, and is worried for her safety.

[Moe]

If all those young children were removed without their mother's, think of the chaos that would ensue. The kids would have been inconsolable, remember they are taught outsiders are Satan. At least they have their mother's right now, the little one's lives are crumbling around them. Imagine 401 screaming, terrified, crying kids? This way there seems to be some order. I'm really scared of what is to come, this whole story gets worse by the minute.

[Pepper]

But everybody please remember this is all just being handled on a local level. There is NO federal involvement at all.

And also please remember that there could have been NO more efficient way to accomplish the same thing while at the same time not trampling on peoples civil rights.

For example, cordoning off the compound and removing the adult males while leaving the women and children in their enviroment and then interviewing them would have been ...well stupid actually...then you would only have less then 100 adult males in custody. You know, the "perps"?

Much better to have upwards of 500 women and children displaced without warning. Oh yeah, much better use of manpower and money.
I take it you are being sarcastic here. This action was all about protecting the children, not arresting the men. There would have been no cause of action for removing the men since they haven't been charged with anything yet. HAD THE MEN BEEN FORCIBLY REMOVED, THEY COULD SUE FOR FALSE IMPRISONMENT, SINCE NO CHARGES HAD BEEN FILED!

I repeat, THIS WAS ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE CHILDREN. PERIOD. As such, the children were removed from the danger. The adult mothers were given the opportunity to go with their children (very humane, if you ask me) and most did.

[SuziQ]

From what In remember she just gave a quick very professional reply that she didn't have that information or something similar to that.

I guess that could be taken alot of ways. I wonder if there is a rumor about cadaver dogs being used? Or if the reporter was just taking a wild guess that they might be used?

[sherri79]

I take it you are being sarcastic here. This action was all about protecting the children, not arresting the men. There would have been no cause of action for removing the men since they haven't been charged with anything yet. HAD THE MEN BEEN FORCIBLY REMOVED, THEY COULD SUE FOR FALSE IMPRISONMENT, SINCE NO CHARGES HAD BEEN FILED!

I repeat, THIS WAS ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE CHILDREN. PERIOD. As such, the children were removed from the danger. The adult mothers were given the opportunity to go with their children (very humane, if you ask me) and most did.
exactly!:clap: :clap: :clap:

[curious1]

also from the above link...

a lot of people are beginning to question why an entire community was uprooted.

i dont feel so alone now :crazy:

I think maybe they moved them so they would not have another possible Waco on their hands. Who knows what they might have had access to in their 'community'...weapson, explosives, maybe even poison for a mass suicide. I think it was smart to remove them from their home base.

[curious1]

Maybe the women were removed so THEY would be protected.

And to get them away from the men (I use that term loosely) so they would feel safe to talk. It's not rocket science people. Remove the abused from the abuser and they feel safer to speak up.

[SuziQ]

Tom Green County usually handles about 271 abuse cases a year and now are faced with 400 additional ones all at once. More at the below link about the search warrants, FLDS attorneys, etc.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/08/courts-brace-onslaught-state-prepares-take/

[tamfish]

I live in Central Texas -- this story is HUGE here right now. I heard from a source actually in El Dorado (someone who has been campaigning to get this cult investigated for years) that in the first bus load of kids taken, there were 18 girls aged 16 and under who were pregnant.

While I certainly appreciate freedom of religion -- this is abuse, in my opinion. The girls are brought up with a limited education so that they fear leaving the compound -- if they leave, they won't be able to care for themselves. The children are taught to fear outsiders.

If this "religion" believes it is appropriate for a young, 16 year old girl to be married (against her will or choice) to a man old enough to be her father or grandfather -- to become one of his many wives -- does it not stand to reason that, at some point, a 14-year old could be married off?? 12 years old? 10??

At what point does it stop?

[barb0301]

I live in Central Texas -- this story is HUGE here right now. I heard from a source actually in El Dorado (someone who has been campaigning to get this cult investigated for years) that in the first bus load of kids taken, there were 18 girls aged 16 and under who were pregnant.



Those are probably the first 18 girls that were legally placed in the state's custody on Friday. That number alone would probably lead the state to believe the entire community of children were in danger. 18 under aged girls pregnant and noone in charge of keeping these young girls safe has reported to the authorities that a pedophile(s) has been raping their children? You betcha the state of TX is gonna step in and take those kids !!

[Moe]

I wonder what kind of medical care these poor girls get, they are still growing themselves!

[Trino]

Has anyone thought of the financial implications of this on the county? Just feeding 500 people each day has to be a HUGE financial burden. Does this county have this kind of money?

I realize the adult women/mothers were given the option of going with their children - very humane - but since when does a county give the parent of detained individuals (children) food and shelter? I've never heard of this before.

I'm guessing LE officials did not consider the magnitude of what they were going to encounter.

[nanandjim]

Has anyone thought of the financial implications of this on the county? Just feeding 500 people each day has to be a HUGE financial burden. Does this county have this kind of money? .
I have read that the wives collect public assistance anyway. So, why would it be an additional burden? I personally find this entire type of situation disgusting. A few old men in power, who have money, control an entire group of people--men and women and children. It's like shooting ducks in a pond because they isolate the group and brainwash them.

I think the age that they start picking a new victim to sexually abuse is 14 years old. They make sure that they control what these people do, think and feel. Once these youngsters start having children, there's usually no way out. The females have limited education and no "real world" skills.

I think that they are doing most a favor. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the young men are glad that there was a raid.

[Pepper]

I have read that the wives collect public assistance anyway. So, why would it be an additional burden? I personally find this entire type of situation disgusting. A few old men in power, who have money, control an entire group of people--men and women and children. It's like shooting ducks in a pond because they isolate the group and brainwash them.

I think the age that they start picking a new victim to sexually abuse is 14 years old. They make sure that they control what these people do, think and feel. Once these youngsters start having children, there's usually no way out. The females have limited education and no "real world" skills.

I think that they are doing most a favor. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the young men are glad that there was a raid. EXACTLY!!:clap: :clap: :clap:

[curious1]

Has anyone thought of the financial implications of this on the county? Just feeding 500 people each day has to be a HUGE financial burden. Does this county have this kind of money?

I realize the adult women/mothers were given the option of going with their children - very humane - but since when does a county give the parent of detained individuals (children) food and shelter? I've never heard of this before.

I'm guessing LE officials did not consider the magnitude of what they were going to encounter.

Yes, but with most 'communities' like this they were probably already living off the local and state gov't in the form of welfare and aid programs.

[Pepper]

Think about it. These men have the ultimate scam going on. They have multiple wives with lots of kids. This means lots of welfare checks so the men don't have to work very hard. Now they all believe in tithing, so 10% of these welfare checks goes to the church to build their temples, buy up land for compounds, etc. The church can then pay the leaders big $$. Of course the church is tax exempt. The church can expand its sphere of influence because of all the tax exempt $$ they collect. The multiple wives and huge families insures that the fold will grow in population. The more kids the bigger the welfare checks, the bigger the tithe, etc., etc., etc.

[Glow]

There would have been no cause of action for removing the men since they haven't been charged with anything yet. HAD THE MEN BEEN FORCIBLY REMOVED, THEY COULD SUE FOR FALSE IMPRISONMENT, SINCE NO CHARGES HAD BEEN FILED!

I repeat, THIS WAS ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE CHILDREN. PERIOD. As such, the children were removed from the danger. The adult mothers were given the opportunity to go with their children (very humane, if you ask me) and most did.


but they ARE holding the men.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

And I don't see anything humane about telling a woman that you are taking her child and she can come along if she wants or just stand there if she doesn't.

I am not saying that some/many? of these women don't feel relief at being out of their situation. I'm sure some do.

I'm just saying that it wasn't handled right.

A good result can still occur when things are mishandled. It is possible for the two concepts to exists side by side.

[barb0301]

but they ARE holding the men.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

And I don't see anything humane about telling a woman that you are taking her child and she can come along if she wants or just stand there if she doesn't.

I am not saying that some/many? of these women don't feel relief at being out of their situation. I'm sure some do.

I'm just saying that it wasn't handled right.

A good result can still occur when things are mishandled. It is possible for the two concepts to exists side by side.

I would say that they have been treated far more "humanely" than most mothers who have their children removed for suspected abuse. They have been allowed to accompany their children. Most mothers aren't given that choice.

I would be interested to hear how you would have seen this handled more appropriately Glow. I think we agree on the outcome, maybe just not the tactics used? I'd like to better understand how you would have seen it all being handled.

[Pepper]

See embedded answer

but they ARE holding the men. Holding the men is not the same as removing (arresting) the men, and this was being done until the search is complete.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

And I don't see anything humane about telling a woman that you are taking her child and she can come along if she wants or just stand there if she doesn't.Then I guess you don't believe any child, regardless of the danger that child is in, should ever be removed from parental custody if abuse is suspected? We should just do away with CPS because they are heartless and cruel and just want to hurt children and their parents? Absurd.

I am not saying that some/many? of these women don't feel relief at being out of their situation. I'm sure some do. I'm just saying that it wasn't handled right. And how would YOU have done it? Keep in mind there are some Constitutional issues here. They could not remove the men - Unconstitutional.

A good result can still occur when things are mishandled. It is possible for the two concepts to exists side by side. I don't think anything was mishandled. They CPS are the professionals and they know their job and the requirements far better than any of us.

[sherri79]

but they ARE holding the men.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

And I don't see anything humane about telling a woman that you are taking her child and she can come along if she wants or just stand there if she doesn't.

I am not saying that some/many? of these women don't feel relief at being out of their situation. I'm sure some do.

I'm just saying that it wasn't handled right.

A good result can still occur when things are mishandled. It is possible for the two concepts to exists side by side.
lets compare what is more humane.

to allow the mothers to come with the children or rip the children from the only world they know with no support system.

these mothers allowed old men to rape their 14 year old daughters. the fact they are given a choice shows they are trying to make this as easy as possible on the children.

i do not see what choice the government could have made different. had the government allowed the children to stay despite the evidence of wide spread abuse(18 girls pregnant while under age) the government would have shared responsibility for ever rape that took place while they investigated.

[Linda7NJ]

I think it was brilliant to allow the mothers to come if they chose to. It's better for the children, every wat you loook at it. It will make them much more comfortable and make LE and all those involved not look like such Satan's monsters. The quicker those children open up the faster the investigation will conclude.

WHERE ARE ALL THE BOYS????????????????

[Jules]

these men are not practicing any form of religion, but they're pedophiles hiding behind a religion.

Exactly how I see it. We (the government - local and/or state) need to protect the kids who can't protect themselves. And the men need to be charged just like anyone else would be who was caught having sex with a minor or blood relative. And, enough with the religion stuff. That shouldn't come into play at all. It shouldn't matter what religion they are or practice - abuse is abuse. Period.

[Pepper]

Glow, it looks to me like you believe the parents should have more rights than the children. FWIW I feel exactly the opposite. When a child's rights bump up against an adult's rights, as might be interpreted in this case, then the child's rights should trump the adult. To often children have been treated as pawns in our society because they have no one advocating on their behalf. They have no money and can't vote, so their rights often have been ignored.

This case is ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED FROM ABUSE.

I applaud Texas and the county CPS for having the guts to step in and CARE about the welfare of these innocent children. And FWIW, I don't give a damn about the rights of the parents to raise their children in this cult.

[ttrachel04]

Glow, it looks to me like you believe the parents should have more rights than the children. FWIW I feel exactly the opposite. When a child's rights bump up against an adult's rights, as might be interpreted in this case, then the child's rights should trump the adult. To often children have been treated as pawns in our society because they have no one advocating on their behalf. They have no money and can't vote, so their rights often have been ignored.

This case is ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED FROM ABUSE.

I applaud Texas and the county CPS for having the guts to step in and CARE about the welfare of these innocent children. And FWIW, I don't give a damn about the rights of the parents to raise their children in this cult.

Pepper I agree with you. LET'S WORRY ABOUT THE CHILDREN !!!!!!!!!

And I said earlier, that people who ran away from the sect (who were raised there) are speaking out saying that this is NOT a religion ... that this is an EXCUSE FOR PEDOPHILIA !!!!

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.myeldorado.net/

Two FBI agents entered compound, authorities are on the look out for Seth Jeff, Warren's bro, apparently he's headed to the compound

[Linda7NJ]

What the heck is up with the jackhammers?

[curious1]

Isn't it a shame how people will wrap the ugliest things up and put a nice pretty bow around it that says 'Religion'?

[SewingDeb]

Someone mentioned cadaver dogs and concrete in earlier posts on this thread (not from articles, just posts). Jackhammers have me thinking there are either hidden rooms or bodies under concrete or both.

[Moe]

I have a really bad feeling about this case, it scares me. Where are the boys?

[SuziQ]

Seth Jeffs, hmmmm. Locally we were so bombarded with the Jeffs trial I tuned it out for the most part. However others here can probably verify or correct the recollection that when authorities were looking for Warren, they pulled over Seth and another FLDS member with a large amount of cash. Rather than admit that they were on their way to help Warren they said they were homosexuals cruising for sex or something bizarre like that. Does anyone else remember?

I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that up!!! lol.

[SuziQ]

I'm uneasy about this case today and I don't know why really.

[Linda7NJ]

What would make the FEDS get involved?:waitasec: Oh this is gonna be huge

[Moe]

They have compounds in other states, maybe there has been some travel between them. Involving more than one state would make it a federal case.

[barb0301]

Any unusual amount of weapons would also make it federal. We know that they had armed guards, so weapons are present. If they have found any secret cache of weapons, the feds will pounce on that real quick. Could be almost anything. Transporting minors across state lines for sex, excess cash (IRS), guns, who knows.

This is going to really blow up I think. I can't believe the major news networks aren't all over this one.

[Trino]

I have read that the wives collect public assistance anyway. So, why would it be an additional burden?

It would be an additional burden because the welfare checks do not stop. They will be collecting while being detained, if "detained" is the correct word.

[Linda7NJ]

Audio Tapes recently obtained

http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ040305.html

In one of the clips Jeffs says, "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth or rude and filthy, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind." Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #1 (http://www.myeldorado.net/audio/black_class.mp3)
Yet another of the clips has Jeffs saying, "So I give this lesson on the black race that you can understand its full effect as far as we are able to comprehend. And that we must beware, if we are for the prophet, for priesthood, we will come out of the world an leave off their dress, their music, their styles, their fashions, the way they think - what they do, because you can trace back and see a connection with immoral filthy people." Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #2 (http://www.myeldorado.net/audio/Filthy_People.mp3)
In another clip Jeffs explains that the Negro race which he calls the "seed of Cain" survived the flood of Noah because Noah's son Ham was married to "a wife of that seed" which he identified as being black. He claimed it was necessary for the black race to be preserved "because it was necessary that the Devil should have a representation upon the Earth as well as God." He continues by saying, "So, the day of the Negro is continued and today is the day of the Negro, as far as the world is concerned." Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #3 (http://www.myeldorado.net/audio/Negro_survives_flood.mp3)
Jeffs goes on to say that anyone who "mingles their seed with the seed of Cain, the Negro, they also would lose all rights to priesthood blessings." Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #4 (http://www.myeldorado.net/audio/Negro_lose_rights.mp3)

even more at the link

[Glow]

I would say that they have been treated far more "humanely" than most mothers who have their children removed for suspected abuse. They have been allowed to accompany their children. Most mothers aren't given that choice.

I would be interested to hear how you would have seen this handled more appropriately Glow. I think we agree on the outcome, maybe just not the tactics used? I'd like to better understand how you would have seen it all being handled.

I appreciate your polite response barb :blowkiss:

ok, By saying someone is "humanely" treated I think you and I agree that the women are being treated kindly and humanely now. I don't think anyone with them wants them hurt. In fact the ones helping these women and children see themselves as their "rescuers" and they very well may be in some of the cases. Telling them I am taking your child and you can come if you want leaves a woman with very few options though doesn't it?

Remember when America was a young country and civilization was pushing west? It wasn't long before the Indians were perceived as barbaric and their customs were strange and their hygiene was terrible and worst of all they didn't believe in Jesus. Most of the time they were slaughtered or driven away by the calvary. This was not deemed an immoral act because the land/country "belonged" to the government that the calvary worked for. In this mix there were also compassionate souls who wanted to "help" these Indians, bathe them, give them "decent" clothes to wear etc... basically the white man saw his way as "better" and the attempt to help was really to make the Indians more like themselves.

Well we all know how that ended.

As for this situation today. I completely understand everyone's moral outrage at young girls being impregnated against their will. But if we set that aside for one minute, what else are these people doing wrong? Well there is the polygamy some might say. It is against the law. Do we know if these people have had legal marriages or just "religious" ones? If it is the latter, then they haven't broken the law of the land, they are just "living together" in the legal sense. Also, they are not the only polygamists. I would be very surprised if the ones that were on the Oprah show last week get picked up and taken to shelters. As a matter of fact I would be willing to bet you that they will be left completely alone. So it must not be the "polygamy" aspect of all of this that is bothering people. The other thing that I think is concerning to all, is that these women live a lifestyle that offers no opportunity for change. This is the one that sparks so much sadness in all of us for them. They look so "worn" and beaten down. It makes us want to offer them something. That something is hope and options. After all America is the land of opportunity right?

But could there have been a way to do this with a little less "muscle"? Could the men who are still being "held" at the compound still have been "held" either at the compound or somewhere else completely separate from the rest of the community? They are the problem here after all. Sift through them and if some are still there who are guilty of impregnating these young girls, take them to jail. As for the other men there, who knows if the more moderate among these men could have been persuaded to come to some terms of agreement. Didn't I read that was what happened in the late 1800's with the mainstream Mormons? If it happened then it could happen again. At least the attempt could have been made.

Offer all the women and girls that are deemed in "crisis" such as the young pregnant girls AND anyone else who WANTS to leave the opportunity to do so. Don't insist. Offer.

Let the women and the small children who are definitely not in immediate danger have the choice to stay in their homes OR leave without using separation from their children to influence their choice. This would have been more quietly efficient if all we are really after here is correcting the under age sexual activity component.

If on the other hand obliterating a life style that most of us see as abhorrent and replacing it with one that more closely resembles our own is the goal, then I think everything is going according to plan.

[Linda7NJ]

Jeffs, in yet another of the clips, cautions women to build up their husbands by being submissive. "That is how you will give your children the success," Jeffs states. "You will want your children to be obedient and submissive to righteous living," Click to play Jeffs audio Clip #7 (http://www.myeldorado.net/audio/Wives_be_submissive.mp3)

[curious1]

Oh okay so a white 'man' (again I use the term loosely) who abuses and has sex with children thinks he is better than a black man? Riiiiiiiiight. Another wacko who thinks his skin colour makes him superior. This just keeps getting better and better. Honestly where do they get this stuff from. :doh: Oh they just make it up as it suits their needs. I keep forgetting that. :crazy: Nut jobs, all of 'em.

[BarnGoddess]

Glow, you need to find and read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven". It may change your mind about this crazy cult. I wouldn't call it a "religion" at all. Warren Jeffs and his ilk are just Jim Jones reincarnated. It's all about power.

[Glow]

Glow, you need to find and read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven". It may change your mind about this crazy cult. I wouldn't call it a "religion" at all. Warren Jeffs and his ilk are just Jim Jones reincarnated. It's all about power.


I would love to read it BarnGoddess, although I doubt it would change my mind as I view this cult as a negative already. Unless I am misunderstanding you and you are saying this would make me view this cult in a more positive light? :confused:

I will look for the book. Thank you for telling me about it.

[Linda7NJ]

:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RV4fKtKp0&feature=related
:eek:

[golfmom]

I just thought this was interesting as the group has been splintering, splitting and setting up a variety of locations in different states over the past few years.

http://www.cortezjournal.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=news&article_path=/news/08/news080408_2.htm

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints member who purchased a west Texas ranch from which nearly 200 people were removed over the weekend for alleged physical abuse has ties to two properties northwest of Mancos.

[LinasK]

Glow, it looks to me like you believe the parents should have more rights than the children. FWIW I feel exactly the opposite. When a child's rights bump up against an adult's rights, as might be interpreted in this case, then the child's rights should trump the adult. To often children have been treated as pawns in our society because they have no one advocating on their behalf. They have no money and can't vote, so their rights often have been ignored.

This case is ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED FROM ABUSE.

I applaud Texas and the county CPS for having the guts to step in and CARE about the welfare of these innocent children. And FWIW, I don't give a damn about the rights of the parents to raise their children in this cult. Excellent post Pepper!:clap::clap::clap:

[nanandjim]

It would be an additional burden because the welfare checks do not stop. They will be collecting while being detained, if "detained" is the correct word.
It would seem to me that these women are collecting the checks under fraudalent circumstances. They know where the father is. HE should be supporting ALL of his kids. Plus, the women should be on the OUTSIDE working REAL jobs and earning REAL paychecks...not submitting to their men to get their ticket to Heaven.

[SuziQ]

:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RV4fKtKp0&feature=related
:eek:

What a darling woman. I had forgotten about her there are so many. I'm glad she got out.

[Linda7NJ]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

You gotthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1cTk2cJQac&NR=1a see this!

[golfmom]

I've just started watching 82 minutes long! Fascinating documentary regarding Polygamy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjDJs7wvGLg&feature=related

[txsvicki]

If there were reports of sexual and physical abuse and neglect, I think the children should have been taken separately no matter how much manpower it took. Those mothers have had time to threaten and intimidate the kids into not talking. Texas might allow a parent or guardian to take a child into an office to be interviewed, but not the ones who are reported for abuse. These kids have the same rights as any other Texas child. Also, these women wouldn't have been getting a welfare check, only foodstamps. There's not many here getting welfare checks. This bunch of freaks wouldn't have been trying to lie and say there's an absent father because they have to prove education, shot records, and have regular Texas Health Steps checkups or the check will be cut off. Food stamps doesn't require all that, just proof of income and a domicile form.

[Linda7NJ]

these are incredible stories...children and wives reassigned

Watch this and you'll understand why they will have so much trouble identifying these children and their fathers.........insanity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xPJPHIx590&feature=related

[Glow]

It would seem to me that these women are collecting the checks under fraudalent circumstances. They know where the father is. HE should be supporting ALL of his kids. Plus, the women should be on the OUTSIDE working REAL jobs and earning REAL paychecks...not submitting to their men to get their ticket to Heaven.


It is amazing that they were able to manipulate the welfare system in such a way. I know people who really need help and cant get it because such an eagle eye is kept on everything.

No eagle eye here apparently.

[barb0301]

Telling them I am taking your child and you can come if you want leaves a woman with very few options though doesn't it? IMO, in the case of suspected abuse, a mother should be thankful that ANY option is given.

Remember when America was a young country and civilization was pushing west? It wasn't long before the Indians were perceived as barbaric and their customs were strange and their hygiene was terrible and worst of all they didn't believe in Jesus. Most of the time they were slaughtered or driven away by the calvary. This was not deemed an immoral act because the land/country "belonged" to the government that the calvary worked for. In this mix there were also compassionate souls who wanted to "help" these Indians, bathe them, give them "decent" clothes to wear etc... basically the white man saw his way as "better" and the attempt to help was really to make the Indians more like themselves. So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to change their clothes, their hygiene, etc. Have I missed something? Nor have I seen any slaughter take place.

As for this situation today. I completely understand everyone's moral outrage at young girls being impregnated against their will. But if we set that aside for one minute, what else are these people doing wrong? Well there is the polygamy some might say. It is against the law. Do we know if these people have had legal marriages or just "religious" ones? If it is the latter, then they haven't broken the law of the land, they are just "living together" in the legal sense. Texas is a state that recognizes common law marriages. In order to be married under common law, you have to pass the following 3 tests:
Q: What makes a common law marriage?


A: Three elements must be present to form a common law marriage in Texas. First, you must have "agreed to be married."
Second, you must have "held yourselves out" as husband and wife. You must have represented to others that you were married to each other. As an example of this, you may have introduced you partner socially as "my husband," or you may have filed a joint income tax return.
Third, you must have lived together in this state as husband and wife.
However, I don't really think the purpose of this has been to stop polygamy. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR SAFETY.

But could there have been a way to do this with a little less "muscle"? Could the men who are still being "held" at the compound still have been "held" either at the compound or somewhere else completely separate from the rest of the community? Not without arresting them, under TX law. Until they have talked to the women and children, they are not going to arrest them - not constitutional. However, it IS constitutional to protect children against abuse. There were allegations made of sexual AND physical abuse.

They are the problem here after all. Sift through them and if some are still there who are guilty of impregnating these young girls, take them to jail. As for the other men there, who knows if the more moderate among these men could have been persuaded to come to some terms of agreement. Didn't I read that was what happened in the late 1800's with the mainstream Mormons? If it happened then it could happen again. At least the attempt could have been made. It didn't happen overnight, and if you think for one minute that the men would have just agreed to leave peacefully, or come to some form of "agreement" and then WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED IT, ..........??????????? Really? You believe that?

Offer all the women and girls that are deemed in "crisis" such as the young pregnant girls AND anyone else who WANTS to leave the opportunity to do so. Don't insist. Offer. Let the women and the small children who are definitely not in immediate danger have the choice to stay in their homes OR leave without using separation from their children to influence their choice. This would have been more quietly efficient if all we are really after here is correcting the under age sexual activity component. There were also allegations of physical abuse. Not just sexual abuse http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695267411,00.html



Thanks for responding to me Glow, and I am glad to hear what you have to say, just happen to disagree with much of it. I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on how this all went down, and hopefully agree on the end result, that the CHILDREN WERE PROTECTED.

I for one, and EXTREMELY grateful that this has happened. I think it has been a long time coming, I wish it had happened in AZ or UT, I wish other girls and children had been protected over the years, and I think that because of the "religious" connotation attached to the group, the authorities have taken the chickens*** way out for far too long and left too many children in the hands of pedophiles and child abusers.

WAY TO GO TX - I'M PROUD TO BE A TEXAN, AND SUPPORT THE LE AND CPS INVOLVED IN THIS 100%

[SuziQ]

Linda7NJ, thanks for finding and posting the videos. They are a very good representation of what the life in a polygamist community is. I suspect though, the ones who have suffered even worse are too traumatized to share their experiences with anyone. And others can't talk simply because they are six feet under. KWIM?

[Jules]

WAY TO GO TX - I'M PROUD TO BE A TEXAN, AND SUPPORT THE LE AND CPS INVOLVED IN THIS 100%

Amen :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonSp_Lmjrk&NR=1

wow, some smart strong brave young ladies

[Glow]

Thanks for responding to me Glow, and I am glad to hear what you have to say, just happen to disagree with much of it. I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on how this all went down, and hopefully agree on the end result, that the CHILDREN WERE PROTECTED.
[/B]


Well I was getting ready to address the points you mentioned but then I read the above and figured maybe you want to just let it stand where it is :crazy:

That is ok with me, hey! Its less typing right? I think this whole topic has spiraled into the emotional category for the general public at large. Maybe later when it is all played out people will want to look at the larger picture. I know that I will! Maybe, maybe not. We will see.

Thanks for the conversation Barb :blowkiss:

[sherri79]

I appreciate your polite response barb :blowkiss:

ok, By saying someone is "humanely" treated I think you and I agree that the women are being treated kindly and humanely now. I don't think anyone with them wants them hurt. In fact the ones helping these women and children see themselves as their "rescuers" and they very well may be in some of the cases. Telling them I am taking your child and you can come if you want leaves a woman with very few options though doesn't it?

Remember when America was a young country and civilization was pushing west? It wasn't long before the Indians were perceived as barbaric and their customs were strange and their hygiene was terrible and worst of all they didn't believe in Jesus. Most of the time they were slaughtered or driven away by the calvary. This was not deemed an immoral act because the land/country "belonged" to the government that the calvary worked for. In this mix there were also compassionate souls who wanted to "help" these Indians, bathe them, give them "decent" clothes to wear etc... basically the white man saw his way as "better" and the attempt to help was really to make the Indians more like themselves.

Well we all know how that ended.

As for this situation today. I completely understand everyone's moral outrage at young girls being impregnated against their will. But if we set that aside for one minute, what else are these people doing wrong? Well there is the polygamy some might say. It is against the law. Do we know if these people have had legal marriages or just "religious" ones? If it is the latter, then they haven't broken the law of the land, they are just "living together" in the legal sense. Also, they are not the only polygamists. I would be very surprised if the ones that were on the Oprah show last week get picked up and taken to shelters. As a matter of fact I would be willing to bet you that they will be left completely alone. So it must not be the "polygamy" aspect of all of this that is bothering people. The other thing that I think is concerning to all, is that these women live a lifestyle that offers no opportunity for change. This is the one that sparks so much sadness in all of us for them. They look so "worn" and beaten down. It makes us want to offer them something. That something is hope and options. After all America is the land of opportunity right? i could care less about the mothers. as a adult you have choices in life. they may have been hard or even horrible choices but they still handed their daughter over to these old men for sex. i can not set aside the abuse of the children because for me that is what this is about.

But could there have been a way to do this with a little less "muscle"? Could the men who are still being "held" at the compound still have been "held" either at the compound or somewhere else completely separate from the rest of the community? They are the problem here after all. Sift through them and if some are still there who are guilty of impregnating these young girls, take them to jail. As for the other men there, who knows if the more moderate among these men could have been persuaded to come to some terms of agreement. Didn't I read that was what happened in the late 1800's with the mainstream Mormons? If it happened then it could happen again. At least the attempt could have been made. i would have loved to have seen the men taken into custody. unfortunately the burden of proof to arrest a adult is higher than to take a child into temporary custody. the government had to follow the laws as currently written. i am sure if you ask the case workers or the officers on the scene they would much rather have rounded up all the men and taken them to jail immediately.

Offer all the women and girls that are deemed in "crisis" such as the young pregnant girls AND anyone else who WANTS to leave the opportunity to do so. Don't insist. Offer. the problem with just offering the children in crisis the option of leaving is that it leaves the children the option to stay with the only family they know even if it means the rapes will continue. the mothers have a choice to stay but can we really give a child the choice to stay in a home where we have evidence of on going sexual abuse?

Let the women and the small children who are definitely not in immediate danger have the choice to stay in their homes OR leave without using separation from their children to influence their choice. This would have been more quietly efficient if all we are really after here is correcting the under age sexual activity component. i do understand the basic idea behind this but i do not agree. when one child in the home is sexually abuse i feel all children should be removed. add to that the fact in this case it can be near impossible to tell what child belongs to a adult mother and what child belongs to a child bride.

If on the other hand obliterating a life style that most of us see as abhorrent and replacing it with one that more closely resembles our own is the goal, then I think everything is going according to plan. i do not find the idea of having multiple wives all that big of a deal. it is a common practice in some part of the world and i think of it as a cultural thing. once your way of life begins to accept child sex abuse i do find it abhorrent. adults may practice and marital choice they wish. child sex abuse under any reason including the claim of culture or religion should be wiped out. all of the bolded junk is me.

[curious1]

It is amazing that they were able to manipulate the welfare system in such a way. I know people who really need help and cant get it because such an eagle eye is kept on everything.

No eagle eye here apparently.

It's easy to manipulate the system if you know how. My sister worked at a clinic in a small town and she use to get so mad when women would drive up in their Mercedes and Jags with their hair and nails all done up and dressed in the lastest clothes and gold chains around their necks, dragging a couple of kids behind in their little Air Jordans and then get there doctor visits paid for by the tax payers. :mad:

[barb0301]

Well I was getting ready to address the points you mentioned but then I read the above and figured maybe you want to just let it stand where it is :crazy:

That is ok with me, hey! Its less typing right? I think this whole topic has spiraled into the emotional category for the general public at large. Maybe later when it is all played out people will want to look at the larger picture. I know that I will! Maybe, maybe not. We will see.

Thanks for the conversation Barb :blowkiss:

Hey, I'm always up for discussion on it Glow, just didn't know if you wanted to continue or not. As long as you know where I stand, and I know where you stand, we're okay.

[Floh]

Here is Fort Concho: http://www.fortconcho.com/

where the women and children are staying for the present. a ticker tape on the site announces: "Due to the recent events at Fort Concho all site tours and the Speakers Series for April 9 have been cancelled"

[jubie]

Well I was getting ready to address the points you mentioned but then I read the above and figured maybe you want to just let it stand where it is :crazy:

That is ok with me, hey! Its less typing right? I think this whole topic has spiraled into the emotional category for the general public at large. Maybe later when it is all played out people will want to look at the larger picture. I know that I will! Maybe, maybe not. We will see.

Thanks for the conversation Barb :blowkiss:




I do find it offensive you insist that you're the only one looking at the 'big picture' and therefore the only enlightened one on the matter. Rubbish! It has been explained to you again and again that the LAW was followed and the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is the CHILDREN BEING REMOVED FROM ABUSE.

[SuziQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonSp_Lmjrk&NR=1

wow, some smart strong brave young ladies

IMO, this video explains exactly how child victims become mothers and can't or won't leave the sect. To make matters worse, authorites will not help them. This leaves very few options. In the video, Flora Jessop explains it perfectly. They are married at 14 and by the time they are old enough to know better and want out, they have several children and are trapped.

Also, the ones who do dare leave or are kicked out don't fare well and are used as an example to scare the remaining flock from doing the same thing. The prophet will use this to put an exclamation point as to how evil the outside world is. Many of the teen girls who try to flee, by law are required to be returned to their parents and suffer horrible consequences upon return.

[barb0301]

Offer all the women and girls that are deemed in "crisis" such as the young pregnant girls AND anyone else who WANTS to leave the opportunity to do so. Don't insist. Offer.

Let the women and the small children who are definitely not in immediate danger have the choice to stay in their homes OR leave without using separation from their children to influence their choice.

I thought I'd give you a little more insight into my way of thinking Glow. I was a foster parent for over 15 years, and ended up with a sibling group of 6. Today, they are aged 25-35 and are still "our children" and have given us 14 beautiful grandchildren.

The first of the 6 came to live with us when he was 6 years old. He was the ONLY one of 7 siblings ever removed by the state of TX for suspected abuse. Now, having seen all the records that exist, there was MORE than enough evidence to remove all 7 kids. However, for whatever reason, they didn't. The kids ended up separated over the years between parents, aunts, etc. Slowly, we gained custody of them through their biological father who at least loved his kids enough to know he was not the best choice and advocated that they come to live with us. We also worked with a private agency that was willing to go to bat for these kids. Well, lo and behold, the horror stories my kids can tell you about the abuse that they all suffered is unimaginable.

To think that only 1 of the 7 was removed is horrific. If you could read the files, you would want to slap some of those CPS workers silly for not removing all of them. The oldest ended up in prison. Emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, physical abuse, sexual, you name it, my kids have been there, done that, suffered and are still suffering for it today. Luckily, they have come a long, long, long way and are doing great now. That isn't to say that they don't have trouble dealing with it.

It was hard to assimilate them into our family and our culture. They had all lived in different households, under different "religious" (read "cult") value, etc. It has taken years. But the cycle is broken for our kids.

It isn't going to be easy for these kids of the FLDS. Hopefully, they will find advocates that never give up. I can tell you that it can work. It can happen. And the rewards are tremendous.

[jubie]

SuzieQ,

You're right. I sure wish there were more 'happy ending' stories of these girls or even boys getting away from this cult. Asbolute mind and body control.:mad:



J.

[Glow]

It's easy to manipulate the system if you know how. My sister worked at a clinic in a small town and she use to get so mad when women would drive up in their Mercedes and Jags with their hair and nails all done up and dressed in the lastest clothes and gold chains around their necks, dragging a couple of kids behind in their little Air Jordans and then get there doctor visits paid for by the tax payers. :mad:

I know what you mean. I used to have a little produce stand that my kids and I worked in together. We worked hard LONG hours trying to make a go of it and we had the same thing..... one lady in particular I remember, pulling up in her brand new Mustang, gold glittering up and down her arms, wanting to know if I took food stamps :rolleyes:

[Glow]

I do find it offensive you insist that you're the only one looking at the 'big picture' and therefore the only enlightened one on the matter. Rubbish! It has been explained to you again and again that the LAW was followed and the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is the CHILDREN BEING REMOVED FROM ABUSE.

I dont think that I am the only one looking at the big picture. By using the phrase general public I was not even meaning this forum. I meant just that, the general public. I am sorry jubie, that my words came across that way to you. I apologize for that.

[SuziQ]

IMO, when it comes to kids, the perps deserve to have their rights trampled. Unfortunatley these scumbags do have rights. And if those rights are trampled on, it negatively affects the case further down the line and a conviction gets tossed out the window. The kids end up not being helped at all.

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

[barb0301]

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

Agreed !!

[SuziQ]

The latest update is an arrest during the night. Lawmen opened a safe at a residence at YFZ and are removing evidence.

http://www.myeldorado.net/

[jubie]

I dont think that I am the only one looking at the big picture. By using the phrase general public I was not even meaning this forum. I meant just that, the general public. I am sorry jubie, that my words came across that way to you. I apologize for that.


Sure. Only problem is when you've been asked how else it should have been handled your ideas are not lawful or supported by CPS and when shown that you respond with 'well when everyone wants to look at the big picture....' Which since you're posting here at WS, within this forum and thread, it pretty much is responding to posts here. So what is your bigger picture? Do it your way regardless of the law or CPS?


So really, whatever. We'll have to agree to disagree. You, as I am, are welcome to your opinion. I think so far the children and mothers have beeen treated as well as can be expected. Better actually. All within the law and CPS guidelines.




Cheers,
Jubie

[jubie]

The latest update is an arrest during the night. Lawmen opened a safe at a residence at YFZ and are removing evidence.

http://www.myeldorado.net/


I sure hope there is something in writing regarding the underage girls, their 'unions' and babies.


J.

[Glow]

all of the bolded junk is me.


well hey you :)

I am going to try to post your thoughts and my answers in a way that is readable ok? I will put yours in bold


i could care less about the mothers. as a adult you have choices in life. they may have been hard or even horrible choices but they still handed their daughter over to these old men for sex. i can not set aside the abuse of the children because for me that is what this is about.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you for mothers that did what you are describing. But what about the mothers that have a one or two year old and have not handed their child over for abuse? The ones that are being very good mothers? They had their children taken too. I totally agree that we should not set aside the abuse of children. I just believe it is possible to help those children without displacing the lives of other children to do it.

i would have loved to have seen the men taken into custody. unfortunately the burden of proof to arrest a adult is higher than to take a child into temporary custody. the government had to follow the laws as currently written. i am sure if you ask the case workers or the officers on the scene they would much rather have rounded up all the men and taken them to jail immediately.

but sherri they ARE detaining the men. The men are being held on the compound and the innocent ones have been displaced. It didn't have to be that way.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001

the problem with just offering the children in crisis the option of leaving is that it leaves the children the option to stay with the only family they know even if it means the rapes will continue. the mothers have a choice to stay but can we really give a child the choice to stay in a home where we have evidence of on going sexual abuse?

This is a very good point that you are making. I think you are right in that some of these teenage girls might not be able to visualize an escape to a different life while being in the same location they have always known. Being in a whole different environment might make them see that life outside the compound IS possible for them. I don't think anyone is trying to say that the toddlers and infants are being sexually abused. As far as I know the concern is the "older" children. Ranging in ages from 9 or 10 and up is that correct? If I am right about that, then why not leave the younger ones with their mothers just for now? That would have lessened the load on the system and enabled those trying to help th aim their help where it is most urgently needed and will do the most good.

i do understand the basic idea behind this but i do not agree. when one child in the home is sexually abuse i feel all children should be removed. add to that the fact in this case it can be near impossible to tell what child belongs to a adult mother and what child belongs to a child bride.


It isn't true that it is impossible to tell which children belong to which mother. That is what we are being told and are expected to "believe" but it simply isn't true. It is the paternity that is proving more complex. The mothers know who they are.

i do not find the idea of having multiple wives all that big of a deal. it is a common practice in some part of the world and i think of it as a cultural thing.


well you have just placed yourself in the minority viewpoint wise. I agree that it is somewhat a cultural thing although it has its roots deeply in religion. The reason that I mentioned the polygamists that were on Oprah was because I made it a point to watch that show. The lifestyle is so outside me value system and comfort level that I thought it would be good for me to look at it from another point of view. Interestingly, ALL the mainstream religions condoned polygamy to some degree in the past. The Jews, Catholics and Protestant religions all eventually abandoned the practice though.

once your way of life begins to accept child sex abuse i do find it abhorrent.

I think everyone finds that abhorrent But this i where it gets complicated isnt it? Having sex with a small child is universally understood as wrong. From that point on is where it gets complicated. In some times and ages past it wasn't unheard of for girls to be betrothed and even married at 13 or so. I remember reading here on WS on one of the Christmas threads, that Mary was thought to be 14 when she gave birth to Jesus. That was the accepted standard at that time. I am neither defending or condemning that I am just stating it as it is. Another way this can be viewed is from an anthropological viewpoint. Or maybe some would call it the evolutionary view point. When the body undergoes sexual maturation the body is then ready for sex. I think that some of the more ancient cultures went by that standard apparently. In our modern world we abhor that thought and think that the older people are when they have sex the better and we have set a mandatory magical age for that. 18 in some states. 16 in others. No matter, we still have 15 year olds giving birth into airplane toilets so I guess the evolutionary have a point as to when the BODY says it is ready for sex. Regardless the law of the land and the time period we live in currently, says that under 16 is too young and regardless of the "culture" or the "religion" of ANY group If they cross this law, then they are in violation of it.

adults may practice and marital choice they wish. child sex abuse under any reason including the claim of culture or religion should be wiped out.


I am cautious about wiping out a culture. Suppose for example there was really a planet X ( I am borrowing that from a thread here at WS) and lets suppose on that planet they believe no one should marry under the age of 21. Lets say that they also do not allow for any divorce if one has children. Lets say that they even see divorcing when there are children and remarrying and blending those children into a new family with a new "mom" and "dad' as the equivalent of the reassigning that the FLDS practice. Lets say that they see that one in every 50 infants is maltreated in our culture. That the number of babies being born and dumped by barely pubescent girls is on the rise. They make the decision to come here and invade our culture. They decide to take all the children here in America and the mothers can come or not. Would we be real happy with that?


But the question still remains what to do with this particular culture today, the FLDS. They are certainly not the worst abusers of children's rights globally speaking. That dubious honor probably goes to the practicers of female circumcision. But these people exist within the borders of our country. They are fringe dwellers in a country that was founded by people seeking a place to practice their religion as they saw fit. That was a highly idealistic venture on their part and makes the USA unique on the world scene. I just feel cautious about superimposing my own or anyone else's current view until we are very very sure we will truly be making things better and not just another variation of worse then they currently have.

[Glow]

I thought I'd give you a little more insight into my way of thinking Glow. I was a foster parent for over 15 years, and ended up with a sibling group of 6. Today, they are aged 25-35 and are still "our children" and have given us 14 beautiful grandchildren.

The first of the 6 came to live with us when he was 6 years old. He was the ONLY one of 7 siblings ever removed by the state of TX for suspected abuse. Now, having seen all the records that exist, there was MORE than enough evidence to remove all 7 kids. However, for whatever reason, they didn't. The kids ended up separated over the years between parents, aunts, etc. Slowly, we gained custody of them through their biological father who at least loved his kids enough to know he was not the best choice and advocated that they come to live with us. We also worked with a private agency that was willing to go to bat for these kids. Well, lo and behold, the horror stories my kids can tell you about the abuse that they all suffered is unimaginable.

To think that only 1 of the 7 was removed is horrific. If you could read the files, you would want to slap some of those CPS workers silly for not removing all of them. The oldest ended up in prison. Emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, physical abuse, sexual, you name it, my kids have been there, done that, suffered and are still suffering for it today. Luckily, they have come a long, long, long way and are doing great now. That isn't to say that they don't have trouble dealing with it.

It was hard to assimilate them into our family and our culture. They had all lived in different households, under different "religious" (read "cult") value, etc. It has taken years. But the cycle is broken for our kids.

It isn't going to be easy for these kids of the FLDS. Hopefully, they will find advocates that never give up. I can tell you that it can work. It can happen. And the rewards are tremendous.

Yours is a beautiful story and you are now moving near a sainthood postion in my mind!

I am so glad that you were able to help so many. I cant imagine how much work that must have taken. Not to mention patience. You can tell a lot about people when they post on an inflammatory topic like this one on FLDS. What I can see about you is that you are qualified to see both sides having been a foster parent. You are also very patient and kind to one with a differing opinion (err that would be me wouldnt it :crazy: ) it has been a real pleasure to talk about this with you.

p.s. I see why your kids love you.

[BarnGoddess]

I know Jon Krakauer wrote about a Colorado compound that was being prepared and I found this very interesting article he wrote for the Eldorado newspaper. I'm going to check to see if there is any more recent activity in Mancos, Colorado.

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html

[Pepper]

I know Jon Krakauer wrote about a Colorado compound that was being prepared and I found this very interesting article he wrote for the Eldorado newspaper. I'm going to check to see if there is any more recent activity in Mancos, Colorado.

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html
Question: Don't they have to get building permits in Texas and Colorado? How were they able to build all of these huge buildings on a "hunting retreat" without permits? And with permits comes building inspectors making sure everything is up to code. And then what about zoning laws?

[curious1]

Oh geez BG. If I were Bramble I would fear for my safety. If they don't sell the land to them at what they want to pay for it, they may find a way to make sure he 'vacates' the land if ya know what I mean. :eek:

[LionRun]

IMO, when it comes to kids, the perps deserve to have their rights trampled. Unfortunatley these scumbags do have rights. And if those rights are trampled on, it negatively affects the case further down the line and a conviction gets tossed out the window. The kids end up not being helped at all.

I'm saying a prayer that these kids will now have a decent shot at life and that the authorities have all their T's crossed and I's dotted so the authorities can make that happen.

Bravo, Suzi! I'm praying too-for the children and for the mothers. Some of these mothers are children themselves who have been brainwashed over a long period of time, I imagine.

They know of no other way. They live in a vacuum filled with twisted beliefs and a, "religious leader" who is a pedophile who hurts girls in the name of religion. Disgusting. Absolutely horrid. I hope and pray that all of the women in children receive all necessary help, including to help them change their ways of thinking concerning the twisted harmful beliefs instilled in them by that cult.

Lion

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3034330

(snips)
A legal battle is erupting in the wake of the raid on a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) polygamist compound in Texas, and it's possible the number of children involved is growing.
***

But the number of children may have gone up again. Late last night we saw a large charter bus arriving at Fort Concho, escorted by several law enforcement vehicles. We believe that was another delivery of children from the FLDS ranch near Eldorado. Later today, Texas officials may release some of the 401 court affidavits they've prepared to support the accusations of abuse. That will trigger a court battle that could remove some of the children permanently from their families. Lawyers and guardians are being appointed to represent the children's interests.

[BarnGoddess]

Here's a great website dedicated to helping survivors.


The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships
on their courageous journey to personal freedom.


http://www.childbrides.org/

It's full of news on the FLDS. Articles, etc. Great find.

[barb0301]

Yours is a beautiful story and you are now moving near a sainthood postion in my mind!



:blowkiss: You are far too sweet !

Trust me, I am FAR from sainthood !! And hubby and I have received many, many rewards and blessings from our children. (also have 1 "home-grown" son - LOL !) They have taught us much, and without them, life would be unbearable. They are my reason for living.

They have taught me that there are usually more than 1 side to every story, and although it is not always comfortable for me, I try hard to see the other viewpoints. It's hard for me when children involved, but I do *try*. I fail far too often.

Good talking to you ! I love this thread, and hope it continues to be a source of really great info.

[StillHoping]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A281915

I'm not sure if this is posted yet. It gives a little more info on when/how the compound was built.

I haven't read most of this thread. Being born and raised in Utah, I've heard plently about FLDS, I'm just glad something is being done about all the abuse in these communities.

[Truly]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A281915 (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A281915)

I'm not sure if this is posted yet. It gives a little more info on when/how the compound was built.

I haven't read most of this thread. Being born and raised in Utah, I've heard plently about FLDS, I'm just glad something is being done about all the abuse in these communities.

Thanks for that link. So, the FDLS has been taught that April 6th is the day the world will end. I hope there was no attempt at a big Jonestown Kool-aide suicide. Now I am even more worried about the boy children.

[barb0301]

News conference going on now - check FOX news

[sherri79]

well hey you :)

I am going to try to post your thoughts and my answers in a way that is readable ok? I will put yours in bold


I understand what you are saying and I agree with you for mothers that did what you are describing. But what about the mothers that have a one or two year old and have not handed their child over for abuse? The ones that are being very good mothers? They had their children taken too. I totally agree that we should not set aside the abuse of children. I just believe it is possible to help those children without displacing the lives of other children to do it. i feel it would have been impossible to leave any children there if the men are not arrested first. for example in the world we live in we find a family where the father is accused of sexually abusing his 3 daughters. do we allow him to keep custody of his son since he seems to only want sex with the girls? well i am sure some judge out there has done that but normally he is thought to be a unfit parent for abusing one child. as a unfit parent he should not have access to any of his children.


but sherri they ARE detaining the men. The men are being held on the compound and the innocent ones have been displaced. It didn't have to be that way.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/details-of-sect-life-emerge-after-raid/20080404201909990001 i read that as the men are detain