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LinasK
04-11-2008, 04:56 PM
I've been trying to bite my tongue as I read so many of the comments that are basically saying it's all the fault of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that there are children being sexually abused by members of the FLDS sect.

The tragedy of the situation is that children are being abused and regardless of the religion, the abuse needs to be stopped. Texas law enforcement is on the road to doing something about today's situation and hopefully they will be on top of tomorrow's situation and next month's situation. As long as there are human beings on this earth, there are going to be abused children. We can argue all day about who is to blame but it really comes down to the abuser is responsible. It doesn't matter if the abuser is FLDS, a Catholic priest, a Mormon bishop, a father/brother/uncle, agnotic or athiest. It takes a certain evil spirit to commit crimes against children and it certainly isn't limited to one group of people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no more legal authority to "correct" or "prevent" the teachings of the FLDS sects than the non-Mormon residents of Utah.

Keeping silent about something you know is wrong is the same as condoning it,
Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.

gamegirl
04-11-2008, 05:00 PM
So EVERY church needs to be doing something about it, not just the Mormons.

WhitneyLea
04-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.

True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 05:30 PM
If any church, especially a big mainstream one, got involved with chastising another churches practice, it could backfire bigtime. And I would bet there would be a public outcry that the "big bully church" is picking on the small church and trying to tell them what to do. I think in this instance the LDS church can accomplish more by doing what they've always done. By helping anyone, including polygamists, that asks for their help. Rather than grandstanding and making non binding public statements regarding the situation, and starting a war of words that won't help anyone.

Leila
04-11-2008, 05:46 PM
True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.

Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.

biggirl
04-11-2008, 05:59 PM
Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

trixie
04-11-2008, 06:00 PM
I guess a 16 year old girl with a cell phone is more powerful than one of the largest wealthiest churches on the planet because she brought it alllll down in Texas. (And Thank GOD for Texas authorities who did the right thing. Texans should be proud!) That being said, to the poster who misunderstood what I said a couple of pages back, I don't hold the Mormon church responsible for what was happening in thet compound. I hold them responsible for being as big and mighty and powerful as they are WITH people in high places who could help and affect change, and yet did nothing. And you cannot tell me they didn't know what was going on. The Warren Jeffs trial was when, last year? EVERYBODY knew what was going on there after that. No, it's not the Mormon churches fault, IMO, it's their fault they didn't see a need and see people in trouble, some of which are related to LDS members, and CHOSE to NOT STEP UP. There are many churches out there who do charitable works for anybody in need, not just their own members. Maybe the Mormons should take a cue from them. FLDS is not LDS. Does that mean the LDS doesn't have the moral obligation to help those children?

Pepper
04-11-2008, 06:07 PM
If you look up the word bigamy in the encyclopedia, it's part of polygamy, with both meaning plural marriages. The difference seems to be in the legal aspects. If one were to obtain a marriage license and wed one person, and then while still married to that person, obtain another marriage license and wed another person, the person who is legally married to two people at the same time is a bigamist and can be prosecuted and sent to jail/prison.

Polygamy seems to be multiple marriages through a church, without a legal marriage license to marry. Certainly those girls in Texas who are younger than the legal age to marry - 16, cannot be considered married.

Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

sherri79
04-11-2008, 06:09 PM
i understand the need to blame. we have children that are hurt. hell i want someone to hate and be angry at. of course i hate the men that rape the children but they are a lost cause. i want to blame someone that can change things.

i want to blame the police in Texas. they knew children lived there and they knew this cult hurt children. they say they had to wait for a legal reason to act. screw the law kids are hurt. i understand we need laws so we do not live in fear of police knocking on my door tomorrow and taking my kids just because they feel like it. there is a disconnect between my heart and head. my head knows that police should follow the law or they are no more than a street gang. my heart screams that children suffered every day that the police waited for proof to act.

i want to blame the LDS. the 2 groups are related. they both started as the same group. my head knows that before Mormons became Mormons they can be traced back to other offshoots of the christian faith. my head knows Jews practiced polygamy at one time. my heart does not care. i want to blame them because they share a past and i have hope they can change the future.

i want to blame anyone that practices polygamy or defends it. i know there is a difference between what adults do and child brides. i still want to blame them.

this case is hard for me. i have spent years suffering abuse. what is logical and what i feel do not always match up.

should the LDS step up and combat the abuse of children? hell yes! so should every religious group. while we are at it so should those that believe in nothing at all or something not covered by the other groups. before we blame the LDS for not stopping child abuse in a community they had ties to a hundred years ago remember we can not stop abuse going on in our own neighborhoods. pull up your local map and see how many men that have raped children are living in your town under the title RSO. people in general fail our children more often than any predator in the darkest jungle.

thefragile7393
04-11-2008, 06:13 PM
True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.
For Trixie and others:
Do you know anything about how the FLDS operates? More than likely any LDS members with FLDS family couldn't have had any CONTACT with them, these people were so shut off from the outside world and not allowed to contact anyone not in their own FLDS family. The FLDS shut themselves off from everyone! They (as a group) didn't WANT outsiders help, and Warren Jeffs and his cronies ruled with an iron fist. Outsiders in CO City, for example, are followed and questioned by the local PD (FLDS members of course) and then escorted out of town. Little hard to help people when you have these creeps preventing that! "Underneath the Banner of Heaven" might be a good place to start to learn more.

Trino
04-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."

barb0301
04-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 06:58 PM
Oh Barb, I missed your previous post. Texas law has some real teeth then to be able to go after this group based on it's recognition of common law marriage.

Pepper
04-11-2008, 07:18 PM
TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.

Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 07:43 PM
But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 08:41 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3059496

(snip)

A judge has ordered all the children stay in the San Angelo area until after a hearing next week.
Child services workers say the children may be put in foster homes after that hearing, but the cultural adjustment would require intense counseling. Some former members of the FLDS Church say girls are told leaving the compound could consign them to eternal damnation, and they are sheltered to the point they don't trust their own judgment.

Pepper
04-11-2008, 09:13 PM
But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...

I don't like it either, but if it is going to be money wasted, then let them spend it on something they are likely to win - like child rape or physical abuse.

Truly
04-11-2008, 09:19 PM
And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."

Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:19 PM
I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't view it as a waste of money, enforcing the law. And, I have a big problem with Utah and Arizona's lax treatment of the polygamists.

barb0301
04-11-2008, 09:20 PM
Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.

TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.


http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...awkins_arrest/ (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/feb/14/no-headline---hawkins_arrest/)

http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...-trial-bigamy/ (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/Feb/15/yisrayl-hawkins-will-go-trial-bigamy/)

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners?

Trino
04-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

Most of these women have less than a sixth grade education. That's a lot of time to make up. Child support? The dads are going to be in jail for a long time.

Truly
04-11-2008, 09:33 PM
But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...



You are absolutely right, it is not freedom of religion. I am going to guess that all of the adult women were raped when they were children. I don't know what the statute of limitations is in Texas on child rape, but there should be no need to even address polygamy between adults.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:35 PM
Long article, but I thought this tidbit was interesting:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269647,00.html

As for the 16-year-old girl who called a hotline to report she was being sexually and physically abused at the ranch, child welfare officials still have not identified her. "It's been an unbelievable task figuring out the identities of these victims," Meisner said.

"Their names change frequently and many have the same name."

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:37 PM
From my understanding the group was educating children through at a minimum of 8th grade, up until Warren Jeffs took over the group. Then he dictated that all children be removed from school.

Pepper
04-11-2008, 09:39 PM
TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners? The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

Truly
04-11-2008, 09:42 PM
Most of these women have less than a sixth grade education. That's a lot of time to make up. Child support? The dads are going to be in jail for a long time.

I know, Trino, and I also understand that these women face difficult choices, and we all have an enormous amount of compassion for what they are facing. But you must remember that there are thousands of other women in this country who have also had limited education, and whether the dad is in jail or just out of the picture, they are raising their kids on their own. It might not be ideal, but people do manage.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:43 PM
The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

But, that's the point Pepper, Texas does recognize "spiritual marriages" or common law marriage AS THE SAME AS a legal marriage. No difference ... so they can prosecute. Polygamy is against the law. Having more than one wife, whether she is a "legally" married wife or a "spiritual" wife .... means that there is more than ONE wife.

barb0301
04-11-2008, 09:50 PM
The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

According to TX law, these are legal marriages. They were living together as man and wife, holding themselves out to be married, and therefore, recognized as being "married" under TX law. It is a prosecutable crime. I personally know people that have had to go through a divorce after having lived under common law marriages.

If they had simply been co-habitating, as sexual partners, it would have been "just" *cough* child abuse. Now, it's not only child abuse, but also bigamy with a partner under aged sixteen, which is a higher class felony under TX law than simple bigamy.

adnoid
04-11-2008, 09:54 PM
But, that's the point Pepper, Texas does recognize "spiritual marriages" or common law marriage AS THE SAME AS a legal marriage...

Interestingly - so does Utah.

My source. (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm)
Another source. (http://www.unmarried.org/common.html)
Yet another. (http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/709FAEE4-ABEA-4E17-BA34836388313A3C/catId/3C3AF4CE-DB9E-48C4-8DFCFE2E47C91747/118/304/145/FAQ/)

ETA: Upon further reading, Utah really doesn't. You've got to read it to understand, but it wouldn't help here. Sorry.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 09:54 PM
From my understanding the group was educating children through at a minimum of 8th grade, up until Warren Jeffs took over the group. Then he dictated that all children be removed from school.

Not to insinuate that Warren's dad was a saint. But the level of control and abuse ramped up big time when Warren took over. IMO, he is one sick puppy and got his kicks from being as cruel and mean as he could. It appears that at the Texas compound, Under Warren's direction, it became even more evil and sinister.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:56 PM
Interestingly - so does Utah.

My source. (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm)
Another source. (http://www.unmarried.org/common.html)
Yet another. (http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/709FAEE4-ABEA-4E17-BA34836388313A3C/catId/3C3AF4CE-DB9E-48C4-8DFCFE2E47C91747/118/304/145/FAQ/)

My understanding was Utah recognizes common law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States#Utah

Utah

it arises out of a contract between a man and a woman
For a common-law marriage to be legal and valid, "a court or administrative order must establish that " who: (1) "are of legal age and capable of giving consent"; (2) "are legally capable of entering a solemnized marriage under the provisions of Title 30, Chap. 1 of the Utah Code; (3) "have cohabited"; (4) "mutually assume marital rights, duties, and obligations"; and (5) "who hold themselves out as and have acquired a uniform and general reputation as husband and wife" (See Utah Code Ann. 30-1-4.5 (2004)).

Truly
04-11-2008, 10:00 PM
The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

I see what you are saying, and I agree. There should be no laws pertaining to consenting adults. But I am willing to bet that every single adult woman in this cult was raped and impregnated when she was a child. If Texas focuses on the child rape charges, I think they will be able to prosecute every man in the compound who has raped a child... on numerous counts. Then there is no need to risk having them slip out of the polygamy loophole.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:04 PM
Not to insinuate that Warren's dad was a saint. But the level of control and abuse ramped up big time when Warren took over. IMO, he is one sick puppy and got his kicks from being as cruel and mean as he could. It appears that at the Texas compound, Under Warren's direction, it became even more evil and sinister.

Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

barb0301
04-11-2008, 10:09 PM
My understanding was Utah recognizes common law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.

But Utah did prosecute and convict Rodney Holm of felony bigamy. He was a former police officer in Hildale. I don't think his conviction was ever overturned, was it? This article shows the UT Supreme Court upholding the 2003 conviction.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195763,00.html

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:11 PM
But Utah did prosecute and convict Rodney Holm of felony bigamy. He was a former police officer in Hildale. I don't think his conviction was ever overturned, was it? This article shows the UT Supreme Court upholding the 2003 conviction.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195763,00.html

Yes, Barb, but I believe I read that the state said the only reason they went after him was because one of his wives was just 16. Otherwise, they would have left him alone. :(

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:16 PM
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_18_Germain_ADifficult.htm

"No one can prosecute polygamy because it is not a felony or a misdemeanor. It is something that is prohibited by Arizona's Constitution, but it is not a crime, so prosecutors do not have any jurisdiction and cannot do anything about the issue of polygamy," Smith said. "That would have to be a legislative change."
........
Regarding Utah:
We have had a very hard time prosecuting the most serious crimes within polygamous communities, and I am sure that victims will be even less willing to testify against a practice they believe comes from God," Shurtleff said.

Since Shurtleff took office, he decided to take two tracks. One is the justice track, which focuses investigations and prosecutions on child abuse, incest, domestic violence and fraud - particularly fraud against taxpayers. The second track is the safety net track, which brings government agencies, nonprofit groups and others together to ensure polygamists have access to information, safety and justice.

Truly
04-11-2008, 10:22 PM
Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

This guy is a piece of work...but he is also in prison. :woohoo: One down, 59 to go in Eldorado! Go Texas!

Colorado and Arizona will hopefully learn from Texas. Utah, I am afraid, may remain stymied by the powerful political influence of the LDS. Not that they're responsible for their brethren, but that there is a whole lot of money and power tied up which the men of the LDS will continue to protect. Kids cannot vote. Kids are not major contributors to political campaigns. Therefore kids are probably off the radar for men like Orrin Hatch.

Fairy1
04-11-2008, 11:57 PM
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_18_Germain_ADifficult.htm

"No one can prosecute polygamy because it is not a felony or a misdemeanor. It is something that is prohibited by Arizona's Constitution, but it is not a crime, so prosecutors do not have any jurisdiction and cannot do anything about the issue of polygamy," Smith said. "That would have to be a legislative change."
........
Regarding Utah:
We have had a very hard time prosecuting the most serious crimes within polygamous communities, and I am sure that victims will be even less willing to testify against a practice they believe comes from God," Shurtleff said.

Since Shurtleff took office, he decided to take two tracks. One is the justice track, which focuses investigations and prosecutions on child abuse, incest, domestic violence and fraud - particularly fraud against taxpayers. The second track is the safety net track, which brings government agencies, nonprofit groups and others together to ensure polygamists have access to information, safety and justice.

They are going to have to focus on the crimes you have in bold type. Polygamy would only be prosecutable if they were "legal" marriages, which these are not. They are "spritual" only. What they're doing in Eldorado is an enormous undertaking - not even including Utah and Arizona and wherever else. But, they must proceed and it must be fruitful. Otherwise, what is stopping any weirdo from starting a "cult" that hides behind religion? The FLDS are not above the laws of the USA and this must be a precedent. What is happening now is going to determine the course going forward.

mysteriew
04-11-2008, 11:58 PM
The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

Each state has their own definition of marriage and there isn't a federal definition of marriage. Texas has defined marriage both as those who get a license and formal ceremony, and as those who live together as man and wife and present themselves as man and wife.

I have an old boyfriend who lives in Texas. He and his girlfriend lived together in Texas for a number of years. When they split, she went to court and filed for divorce and among other things was asking for division of marital property. They had never married and had no children together. And the court did go through the divorce process. So yes, having a marriage license with one woman and living with one or more other woman, and calling them "wives" makes them married in the state of Texas.

Ohio used to have a common law marriage but struck it down in the '80's or '90's. A lot of states used to have common law statutes on the books, but didn't always enforce them. Ohio and some others recinded their laws because under the old laws, the was some question as to whether two gays who lived together and called themselves man and wife could actually be legally married. That all went down prior to the more recent (early 2000?) contraversy about whether 2 gays could legally marry.

Fairy1
04-12-2008, 12:02 AM
Each state has their own definition of marriage and there isn't a federal definition of marriage. Texas has defined marriage both as those who get a license and formal ceremony, and as those who live together as man and wife and present themselves as man and wife.

I have an old boyfriend who lives in Texas. He and his girlfriend lived together in Texas for a number of years. When they split, she went to court and filed for divorce and among other things was asking for division of marital property. They had never married and had no children together. And the court did go through the divorce process. So yes, having a marriage license with one woman and living with one or more other woman, and calling them "wives" makes them married in the state of Texas.

Ohio used to have a common law marriage but struck it down in the '80's or '90's. A lot of states used to have common law statutes on the books, but didn't always enforce them. Ohio and some others recinded their laws because under the old laws, the was some question as to whether two gays who lived together and called themselves man and wife could actually be legally married. That all went down prior to the more recent (early 2000?) contraversy about whether 2 gays could legally marry.

Isn't there a specific number of years where a common law marriage is considered "legal?" I suppose every state differs, but 7 years or more is what I recall.

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 12:05 AM
I was talking with my DD about this situation today and she brought up two very good questions that I hadn't thought about.

We know that under this religon?/cult women have no standing of their own, may not make decisions for their household or their community. Their sole value appears to be breeding and raising the children.

So what happens in these situations? A husband dies and the wife is past the age of bearing more children?

A girl/woman is unable to conceive?

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 12:07 AM
Isn't there a specific number of years where a common law marriage is considered "legal?" I suppose every state differs, but 7 years or more is what I recall.

I don't think Ohio's law had a number of years required. And from what was posted here about Texas law I don't remember seeing a certain number of years. The common law statutes differed between states though, so in some states there may have been a number of years as a requirement.

Fairy1
04-12-2008, 12:12 AM
Here's what I found on common law marriage:

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm

Glow
04-12-2008, 01:06 AM
Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Fairy1
04-12-2008, 01:08 AM
I know, Trino, and I also understand that these women face difficult choices, and we all have an enormous amount of compassion for what they are facing. But you must remember that there are thousands of other women in this country who have also had limited education, and whether the dad is in jail or just out of the picture, they are raising their kids on their own. It might not be ideal, but people do manage.

This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

Fairy1
04-12-2008, 01:15 AM
Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Oh well. Where were they when this all went down? It's not like these women are free to roam about. I read about these women yesterday and something does not ring true about their story. With all these children and women with one of three names and supposedly no birth records, it's got to be impossible for LE to validate thier claims. They could be crazy abductors for all anyone knows. Do they have some form of ID? Probably not. I don't put too much stock in what they say.

Glow
04-12-2008, 01:20 AM
Hi Fairy,

You may be right.... I was just looking for the link. I heard the story in passing today but wasnt in a place where I could really pay attention. I was hoping to find the link so I could look at it a bit harder.

Thanks for replying ( I love your name)

glow

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 01:41 AM
This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

I understand what you are saying, and to some extent even agree with you. Ok, then you are going to be faced with situations like this: Woman was abused by her father from a young age. As an adult she hooks up with another man and has a daughter by him. But when they break up she moves back in with Dad/Grandad. Dad/Grandad begins abusing the grandchild and Mom is aware and does nothing. Mom grew up with the abuse, Mom had poor attendance in school and failed repeatedly, finally quitting when she was 16. She is on welfare. Authorities become aware of the abuse of the granddaughter and arrest grandpa.... should Mom be charged also?

or this situation:

Mom grew up with physical abuse of herself and her siblings. Poor school record, quits at 16. Welfare. She marries and has children. Hubby physically abuses the children, severely. Mom is aware. When it comes to the attention of authorities, dad is arrested. Should Mom be?

In both cases, her parent(s) did it to her. She grew up and survived with it as a normal occurance. She was always told to deny it, hide it, nobody's business- she would get into trouble. No one ever asked about her bruises. She knows of it happening in other households.

Basically the same situations and situations we have seen on this board. The only thing different is the religous aspect.

If they treat these Mother's differently in Texas, what affect will that have on every other case where they try to prosecute the mother for knowing of abuse and not attempting to stop it? Every defense attorney will most likely bring this up.

Truly
04-12-2008, 01:45 AM
This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

Yes, but at this point in time, give them a choice.

Here's how:

*Seperate the mothers into two groups; those under 18, and those over 18.

*Place all of the small children in the center of the room.

*Starting with the youngest mother, ask her to identify her children.

*Give each underage mom the choice to be placed in foster care either alone or with her kids.
(Some girls may not want to be raising their rapists babies when they are only 13-14. Give them the choice.)

*When all of the moms under 18 have gathered their own children, place each family together in foster care.
Each underage mom gets to be placed with her kids, if she chooses.

*Then allow the mothers over 18 to collect their kids, again the youngest mom goes first.

*Help them set up households of their own.

They had no choices before. Now they do. Women figure out how to take care of their kids every day. These moms can, too. :)

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 01:48 AM
Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Glow, this was mentioned I think yesterday but I haven't found a link. To be honest, I wondered if this wasn't either mother's of some of the teenage "married"/pregnant girls. Or there have been reports that some parents had sent their young children to live in the Texas compound while they resided in another state.

They probably won't get to see their kids until
A. their kids are identified, and you have to remember that some kids have the same names, some are giving the same names and/or some are not being truthful about their names and ages.
B. the mother's and the circumstances of their being absent are investigated.

barb0301
04-12-2008, 01:49 AM
Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Here you go:


These three mothers say they "happened to be gone" the day of the raid. I wonder if they're out-of-state moms who's kids were reassigned to Eldorado.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

Three mothers of 10 children taken from the Yearn For Zion Ranch by Texas authorities told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday that child welfare authorities will not allow them to see or talk to their children.

"I am their biological mother. They will not let me in to see my children," said Monica, a 34-year-old woman with five children ranging in age from 3 to 12 years old. "They have my children and I don't know why. I have asked to see them and have been told no. I am not going to sit here and let them have my children. I don't know what, but I am going to do something. I am going to see my children."

Leila
04-12-2008, 02:16 AM
Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

There's also support in every state for women who leave abusive husbands. The battered womens shelters help with a place to stay on an immediate basis and helping the women through the process of obtaining protection orders and getting a job. These organizations can help too.

Leila
04-12-2008, 02:41 AM
Hi Fairy,

You may be right.... I was just looking for the link. I heard the story in passing today but wasnt in a place where I could really pay attention. I was hoping to find the link so I could look at it a bit harder.

Thanks for replying ( I love your name)

glow

There's a link to the article earlier in this thread. It was in the Salt Lake Tribune yesterday, and discussed here last night. Look on pages, 6, 7, and 8. I remember replying to the article.

Interestingly the surnames of the three women were Barlow, Johnson (FLDS leader before Rulon Jeffs - Warren Jeffs father was a Johnson), and the third wife didn't give her surname. They didn't explain where they were. at the time of the raid.

Leila
04-12-2008, 02:45 AM
Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

When you look at Warren Jeffs history, he's a very depraved man. :eek:

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 02:57 AM
Speaking of the mothers, if a mother living for instance in BFE allowed her husband to rape a 13 year old girl repeatedly and LE found out...she could say that he brainwashed her, beat her, did horrible things to her, but LE would still charge her and the law would back them up. She would go to jail for allowing him to knowingly rape the child and lose her other children. She would be deemed unfit. She would also be charged for neglect and a host of other things. Religion or whatever she wanted to use as a defense would not change the fact she allowed it to happen openly.

My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?

Leila
04-12-2008, 03:15 AM
Did anyone else watch CNN 360 tonight? They covered this story with some updated news.

Evidently a girl in Colorado City, Utah called authorities saying she's being abused by her father in her own home.

One of CNN's reporters on scene said that there is progress being made with those that were removed from the compound. The children are doing well and enjoying playing with toys they've never seen before. Some of the younger women in the group are seeking out the counselors. He said that the older women in the group appear to be "enforcers" (the term the reporter used). He felt that their purpose is to remind the younger women of their rules and to keep them in line.

IMO, if the reporter's assessment is correct, then after the hearing on the 17th, the group must be broken up and the younger women removed to someplace where they won't have the influence of the older women. It will be far easier if the groups are kept small - perhaps 5 or 6 mothers and their children taken in by each county.

froggierintexas
04-12-2008, 03:37 AM
I am wondering what they are going to do to prevent the adult women from taking their children (when they gain custody of them again) and going back to another FLDS community? After all, not every adult woman that left their wants to 'start over'. Some are just minding their p's and q's until they figure out what to do to get back to FLDS life.

If they do not charge the mothers, then how can they keep them from taking their children and going where they darn well please once things die down. I mean, if I really believed in something and they set me and my kids (hypothetical ones) up in an apt and got us money and help, the minute they turned their back, I would be back to my beliefs. Us wanting them to change is all well and good, but that does not mean they will. And next time they go to a FLDS community with their kids, they will be better prepared and protected from the law and outsiders making the level of abuse likely to be higher..

I am just concerned that once these guys are in jail for the abuse and life appears to be normal for the kids and the mothers, where will they disappear to? And how much harder will it be to get to them the next time?

I guess LE has considered this. At least I hope so.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 06:46 AM
Did anyone else watch CNN 360 tonight? They covered this story with some updated news.

Evidently a girl in Colorado City, Utah called authorities saying she's being abused by her father in her own home.



Leila, I caught that story yesterday. Quite frankly I don't trust anything out of Colorado City. They have lots of motive to throw doubt at the existence of the girl who made the initial call. They're looking for a legal toe-hold on getting the warrants tossed by saying the initial call was a hoax. JMO, but I don't think it will work with this judge. The prosecutor will focus on the fact that they had a duty to investigate ... and although the girl's identity is in question ... they did find evidence.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 07:00 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/572739.html

AUSTIN, Texas | Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said Friday that the state faces a “massive legal undertaking” in its prosecution of a secretive polygamist sect in West Texas, describing it as the largest and most far-reaching apparent sex abuse case he’s ever seen or heard of in Texas.

“This is some of the worst abuse I’ve ever heard of, and we want to ensure that first, these children are going to be protected from any further abuse, and second, that anyone who harmed them illegally will be brought to justice,” Abbott said in an interview with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
-----
“It is going to be a difficult proposition to prosecute these cases, in my opinion,” said Dan Hagood, a defense attorney and former Dallas County, Texas, prosecutor. “It will be a hard-fought battle both legally and factually.” Hagood said the prosecution could easily drag on for months or even years.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 07:02 AM
http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=8133037&nav=menu73_2_2

The mayor of Eldorado was with the children after they left the compound, and he described a touching moment.

"Those kids had never seen toys," said Mayor John Nikolauk. "We brought the girls dolls, and they just stared at them. Then they started holding and clutching them. The boys finally started playing with the trains we brought them, and they looked happy. That really made your heart feel good."

golfmom
04-12-2008, 07:08 AM
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269763,00.html

Barlow to meet with Texas Rangers today
FLDS children reportedly doing well

Dale Barlow, who lives in Colorado City, Ariz., told the Deseret Morning News he's agreed to meet with the officers who contacted his probation officer to make the arrangements.

"I was told they wanted to talk to me. It's the first time I've heard from the Texas Rangers," Barlow said Friday night.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 07:17 AM
I knew they'd go there . . .

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html

An Arizona attorney for polygamist religious leader Warren Jeffs said he believes authorities who raided the fundamentalist church's Texas ranch last week may have been duped by a fake crime report.

"I smelled a rat from the beginning," said attorney Michael Piccarreta, referring to the phone tip purportedly received from a 16-year-old victim at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Eldorado. "I think the Texas authorities need to make a careful analysis of whether they have been part of a ruse."
.......
Piccarreta, who stressed that his remarks were not made on behalf of Jeffs or the church, questioned whether the call may have been a ploy by an FLDS enemy. Piccarreta said his suspicions increased Friday upon learning that Child Protective Services in Arizona recently got a similar report about a teenager claiming to be in Colorado City.
....
Jessop said she is not surprised that Jeffs' attorney would depict the calls as hoaxes so that children in Texas could be returned to FLDS families. "That's what good attorneys do: They try to discredit the victim to free the predators," she added.

Trino
04-12-2008, 07:53 AM
I knew they'd go there . . .

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html

An Arizona attorney for polygamist religious leader Warren Jeffs said he believes authorities who raided the fundamentalist church's Texas ranch last week may have been duped by a fake crime report.

"I smelled a rat from the beginning," said attorney Michael Piccarreta, referring to the phone tip purportedly received from a 16-year-old victim at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Eldorado. "I think the Texas authorities need to make a careful analysis of whether they have been part of a ruse."
.......
Piccarreta, who stressed that his remarks were not made on behalf of Jeffs or the church, questioned whether the call may have been a ploy by an FLDS enemy. Piccarreta said his suspicions increased Friday upon learning that Child Protective Services in Arizona recently got a similar report about a teenager claiming to be in Colorado City.
....
Jessop said she is not surprised that Jeffs' attorney would depict the calls as hoaxes so that children in Texas could be returned to FLDS families. "That's what good attorneys do: They try to discredit the victim to free the predators," she added.

Gosh. I hope this wasn't a ruse, but the evidence can still be used, right?

On the women issue... At first I sympathized with the women, i.e. brainwashing, but after some thought, I think it's best they be charged. There ARE women who have put two and two together and escaped, so obviously they knew the cult teachings were wrong. Women shouldn't be placed in a "protective" thought pattern just because they're women. What woman wouldn't feel it was wrong to watch her daughter being abused?

W/o records it may not be possible to find which woman is the natural mother of a child. A woman could easily obtain custody of a "sister's" children, then return to the same lifestyle. Younger kids may not actually know their birth mother is vs. many mommies.

As to the women who were not with their children at the time of the raid, my sympathies are with LE. Who's to say they really are mothers of these children?

golfmom
04-12-2008, 08:13 AM
I'm really torn on the issue of the women. I can't get past the idea that this was an ingrained cultural form of abuse and brainwashing. They are convinced that their entire salvation is key to submission. Anyway, I keep thinking of the Stockholm Syndrome; where abducted hostages, shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker.

But, then again you've got three woman calling the media, all outraged, that the state of Texas is keeping them from their children. I just can't work up much sympathy for them.

I don't think the evidence can be tossed out. The warrant was valid. Let's say there was a call to CPS that a child was being abused and it turns out it was a false report. However, during CPS investigation, they see a drug lab and a dead body sitting in the recliner. Just because a false report is investigated doesn't mean they have to close their eyes and not see other criminal activity.

Trino
04-12-2008, 08:36 AM
I don't think the evidence can be tossed out. The warrant was valid. Let's say there was a call to CPS that a child was being abused and it turns out it was a false report. However, during CPS investigation, they see a drug lab and a dead body sitting in the recliner. Just because a false report is investigated doesn't mean they have to close their eyes and not see other criminal activity.

Glad to hear this.

I've never bought into the Stockholm Syndrome. (Never thought Patty Hearst was innocent nor did the jury, but that's another story.) I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.

ACLU and Deprograming:
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm.htm#Cases
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm/acluo.htm#UNADORNED

golfmom
04-12-2008, 08:48 AM
Glad to hear this.

I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.


Exactly! I've done a lot of reading on "false confessions" and have come to understand that people who are submissive or accommodating have a greater likelihood of confessing to something they didn't do.

What's interesting is that the sect seem to breed only submissive/accommodating members. Anytime, someone was viewed as "rebellious" they were tossed right out.

ETA: Perhaps that will help the deprogramming process.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 09:05 AM
You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

adnoid
04-12-2008, 09:17 AM
..."Those kids had never seen toys," said Mayor John Nikolauk. "We brought the girls dolls, and they just stared at them. Then they started holding and clutching them. The boys finally started playing with the trains we brought them, and they looked happy. That really made your heart feel good."

Boy, that statement sure brought a lump to my throat. Those poor little kids.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 09:32 AM
You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

Except in one British paper I can't recall the name of, I haven't seen blatent misinformation the LDS church talks about in that article. I've seen numerous though where the FLDS are referred to as Mormon.

Interesting discussion this morning about the ruse. I posted way back when that there may not have actually been a 16 year old that made that call. My feeling is that it could have been someone making the call on the behalf of hundreds of girls just like the 16 year old. And in my book, that's ok. too.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 09:35 AM
To clarify when I've seen the Mormon reference. It was usually in the context that the FLDS refer to themselves as Mormon and the same article would clarify that the LDS church states they are not. So the media has taken steps to clarify that.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 09:41 AM
Suzi, one of the things I find interesting is that the Utah papers are all over this story. Probably more than the Texas papers. And, just something that bugs me, is that often the articles are subtly slanted.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 09:56 AM
Suzi, one of the things I find interesting is that the Utah papers are all over this story. Probably more than the Texas papers. And, just something that bugs me, is that often the articles are subtly slanted.

KSL and The Deseret News does more in depth positive reporting regarding the church than, IMO, other media outlets here. But I also see these two outlets reporting on tough subjects that you wouldn't expect from them if they were slanted towards the church. And KSL has the toughest comment board I've ever seen with very low censorship. Posters frequently post how basically the LDS church, Mormons, Mexicans and gun laws are the reasons their life sucks. A mod will very rarely remove a post. Decades ago, the Deseret News was very slanted towards the church and didn't report on any news unless they could sugarcoat it. I couldn't stand their paper. I actually like it now.

So in Utah is there a possibility that reporting is slanted towards the LDS church? Always. But I haven't seen any obvious signs of it in this case.....yet.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 10:09 AM
Well, for both those media outlets, there are numerous reporters working on the story, so I guess it depends on the individual reporter on how they view the subject.

Some readers seem to be revolting over the excessive coverage at the Salt Lake Trib:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8900457

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 10:26 AM
Well, for both those media outlets, there are numerous reporters working on the story, so I guess it depends on the individual reporter on how they view the subject.

Some readers seem to be revolting over the excessive coverage at the Salt Lake Trib:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8900457

As stated, it's a just a handfull, thankfully. Because I can't get enough info about this story. It's too important of a human interest story not to report on. And hopefully will be our story if the State of Utah ever gets enough guts to do anything.
***
While some readers have found The Tribune's coverage of the Texas raids on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints compound riveting, a handful of readers have said, "Stop it."

Pepper
04-12-2008, 10:29 AM
As stated, it's a just a handfull, thankfully. Because I can't get enough info about this story. It's too important of a human interest story not to report on. And hopefully will be our story if the State of Utah ever gets enough guts to do anything.
***
While some readers have found The Tribune's coverage of the Texas raids on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints compound riveting, a handful of readers have said, "Stop it."


For those that say "stop it" I say don't read it if it offends you. :boohoo:

golfmom
04-12-2008, 10:34 AM
For those that say "stop it" I say don't read it if it offends you. :boohoo:


LOL, me too Pepper. The more reporters and news outlets covering the better chance we get the info! :woohoo:

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 10:45 AM
I moved to Utah in 86'. And I know at that time, everywhere you turned, the LDS church was in the news. Or at least that's how it seemed. I feel much differently about the LDS church now, but at the time I felt like it was shoved down my throat. IMO, media reporting has backed off alot on that and has gotten better. Some people here have not forgotten how it used to be. I can understand that.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 10:53 AM
This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 10:54 AM
Wow, I'm sitting here recalling when I first moved to Utah from Los Angeles. The typical scenario upon meeting people here was being asked. "Hi, what ward do you go to?" Ok, that's an exageration, but you get my drift. I was shocked at how quick people assumed you were LDS. And when you stated you weren't. They wanted to know what religion you belonged to. Growing up in L.A., you could know someone for years before you knew what religion they were, if you cared to know at all that is. I went through a culture shock when I moved here. There were so many positives though which is why I stayed.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 11:08 AM
This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2



I agree.

Trino
04-12-2008, 11:11 AM
This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age.

After all the publicity, certainly the underage pregnancy issue will be dealt with, which may jail a few men. I wonder if anyone will be brave enough to tell about physical abuse. I still say it would be wise to detain the women - if only to force them into programs.

This story merits a 2 year follow-up.

"Don't Mess With Texas."

mostlylurking
04-12-2008, 11:26 AM
Speaking of the mothers, if a mother living for instance in BFE allowed her husband to rape a 13 year old girl repeatedly and LE found out...she could say that he brainwashed her, beat her, did horrible things to her, but LE would still charge her and the law would back them up. She would go to jail for allowing him to knowingly rape the child and lose her other children. She would be deemed unfit. She would also be charged for neglect and a host of other things. Religion or whatever she wanted to use as a defense would not change the fact she allowed it to happen openly.

My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?

The difference is this:
These women and children (an really, probably the men who are not in power positions) have never been exposed to any other way of life. They don't leave the compounds, and this starts in all the children (from what I've read now) when they are only infants. In their culture, which is based on total control contol of many by only a few from the day they are born, there is no ability to develop a mind of your own.

This is an even worse situation than adults or older teens who run off and join a cult. They at least started with a societal sense of right and wrong surrounding these kind of topics & might have some little voice left inside of them that could help them find a place of escape -- having never been brainwashed, I don't even know about that.

The rest of us are raised in an open world where we are taught this is all wrong (and believe me, everything I've read about how these men in power control the women and children is wrong in my book). So it is easy to justify our anger about what we see happening to these childeren.

But is easy for us to have the compassion they are going to need? Their whole world has been ripped apart. Despite the horrors of how they been taught to raise their children, they lived as a unit. They lived communally for the benefit of everyone in the society. They shared childraising, gardening, food prep, clothes making...... They are one big huge exteded family, and emotionally, I can't fathom how they are even coping.

So, I don't believe that this comparison can be made at all. The situations are totally different.

I also don't believe that these women and children should be allowed to go back to any of the FLDS compounds at all. If our society wants to do right by these folks, we need to very genltly ease them into the outside world. They need to be taugt a whole range of things, like all the different religions from which they can choose, because right now what ever basis of faith they had has been ripped to shreds & we on the outside don't view it as religion, but they did. Education -- get those kids in school -- but public school may not be the best way to start. That's a huge climate change for children who have been so horribly treated already.

Get the women and men who have made it out to come together for discussion to help create a plan. I'm sure that's already in the works.

And for all the comments of the many posters comparing LDS to FLDS, I'm not a religious expert, but it seems to me they are not the same.

In Christianity, there is Catholic and Protestant. In each of those, there are different denominations. All have a certain rituals, etc. None has any say over how the others act. Same with every other major religion of the world. All of us/them should condem the use of their power for this kind of control over children.

And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.

Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 11:41 AM
LOL, mostlylurking ... see sharing your opinion doesn't hurt one little bit.

I don't agree with everything you said, but I'm glad you said it!

Pepper
04-12-2008, 11:47 AM
<snip>
Get the women and men who have made it out to come together for discussion to help create a plan. I'm sure that's already in the works.

And for all the comments of the many posters comparing LDS to FLDS, I'm not a religious expert, but it seems to me they are not the same.

In Christianity, there is Catholic and Protestant. In each of those, there are different denominations. All have a certain rituals, etc. None has any say over how the others act. Same with every other major religion of the world. All of us/them should condem the use of their power for this kind of control over children.

And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.
Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

I mostly agree. I think the best resources are the former FLDS who have left the cult to cut through the brainwashing. It's a huge task.

Pepper
04-12-2008, 11:50 AM
After all the publicity, certainly the underage pregnancy issue will be dealt with, which may jail a few men. I wonder if anyone will be brave enough to tell about physical abuse. I still say it would be wise to detain the women - if only to force them into programs.

This story merits a 2 year follow-up.

"Don't Mess With Texas."

That part may be tough. If you detain them against their will then it will reinforce their opinion that outsiders are the "instrument of satan." If you let them choose, they will go back to the cult. It's almost a lose/lose.

barb0301
04-12-2008, 11:50 AM
And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.

Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

Good for you, and welcome to the discussion - glad you decided to appear !! Your opinions are more than welcome !

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 11:54 AM
Welcome to the thread mostlylurking. I look forward to seeing your posts more often.

newkid
04-12-2008, 11:58 AM
You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/reports-of-polygamy-story-vary-across-the-world

The French news agency Agence France-Presse initially posted on its Web site a photograph of the Salt Lake Temple along with the story of the raid on the polygamous compound. The photograph was removed on Wednesday, three days after the Church requested the agency to take it down and correct inaccuracies in the story. The news wire service then sent out correcting information.
Several major Russian media outlets continue to associate the Church with the polygamous sect despite requests to correct reports.
Some Mexican radio reports have erroneously identified the sect as being The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Several media reports in Bolivia, the Caribbean, Uruguay and Colombia have also failed to make the distinction clear.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 12:02 PM
Newkid, I hope the missionaries for the LDS Church, doing work all over the world, don't get pelted with potatoes or worse because of this.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 12:05 PM
Somewhere on LDS.org there is a vid about Myths vs facts. It was stated, IIRC, that only 14&#37; of all LDS members live in Utah. I found that very interesting!

Glow
04-12-2008, 12:22 PM
The difference is this:
These women and children (an really, probably the men who are not in power positions) have never been exposed to any other way of life. They don't leave the compounds, and this starts in all the children (from what I've read now) when they are only infants. In their culture, which is based on total control contol of many by only a few from the day they are born, there is no ability to develop a mind of your own.

This is an even worse situation than adults or older teens who run off and join a cult. They at least started with a societal sense of right and wrong surrounding these kind of topics & might have some little voice left inside of them that could help them find a place of escape -- having never been brainwashed, I don't even know about that.

The rest of us are raised in an open world where we are taught this is all wrong (and believe me, everything I've read about how these men in power control the women and children is wrong in my book). So it is easy to justify our anger about what we see happening to these childeren.

But is easy for us to have the compassion they are going to need? Their whole world has been ripped apart. Despite the horrors of how they been taught to raise their children, they lived as a unit. They lived communally for the benefit of everyone in the society. They shared childraising, gardening, food prep, clothes making...... They are one big huge exteded family, and emotionally, I can't fathom how they are even coping.

So, I don't believe that this comparison can be made at all. The situations are totally different.




Hi mostlylurking! nice to read your thoughts. According to "those who really know this topic", you and your views are in good company.

By "experts", for one I am talking about Carolyn Jessop, who grew up in a polygamist family in the FLDS Church in Colorado City, Arizona. At age 18, she was forced into a polygamist marriage with a 50-year-old man, finally fled with her eight children. If anyone has insider knowledge than I think it would be her. She said that impacting mainstream society was very very confusing. She also talked about the role of the men in FLDS. About the way that they learn to view women. She feels the problem is located right at the top. With Warren Jeffs and his select few. One of the select few being her former husband She concludes by saying about the men...

"They don't really even understand what they're doing."

Another person who seems to have a wealth of insight into the FLDS although he is an outsider is Mike Watkiss, a reporter for KTVK. He has reported extensively on polygamy, on Warren Jeffs, on the FLDS Church. He also produced "Colorado City and the Underground Railroad," a great documentary. When being interviewed by Larry King he was asked the following:

King asks the hard question: " Is it your thinking, Mike, that these are basically guys looking for easy sex?"

WATKISS: "You know what, I think many of the men are victims themselves. They're raised in this culture. You've done stories on the lost boys. A lot of the young men are basically used as slave laborers until they're teenagers. They start running heavy equipment when they're about eight. You know, they're building stuff all the time. All the money they make -- or should make -- goes right to the prophet. So I think many of the men are victims. It's the handful of -- it's the guys like Warren Jeffs. It's the hand -- this Merril Jessop, Carolyn's former husband, who's running the place. Those guys live lavishly. You know, this is one of those cockamamie theologies that was put together by men, benefits men and continues to benefit men."


The more I read background information the more it seems that this "practice" of marrying and bedding younger and younger females against their will has picked up momentum under the reign of Warren Jeffs. There are more moderate leaders in the FLDS as well as younger men who could potentially be future leaders if the oppressive yoke of the "handful" in power at the moment could be broken.

Floh
04-12-2008, 12:31 PM
Newkid, I hope the missionaries for the LDS Church, doing work all over the world, don't get pelted with potatoes or worse because of this.

I hope the missionaries have been given advice by their leaders on how to cope with questions from the public. they are already looked upon as a joke here in Germany. they don't need this added to their lot.

i always chat to mormon missionaries when i bump into them because they have little to no chance of converts here and spend their days fairly fruitlessly and it seems a shame not to get the chance of a smile or two. often they are americans far from home.

i soon make it clear the only value they'll get from talking with me is talking about Utah (i once lived there for a year) and direct them away from spreading the word to me. we part as friends.

4 years ago when photographs and stories started appearing about Eldorado i contacted the newspaper group i had worked for, but they weren't interested. now it seems as though The Daily Mail (a part of the group) is terribly keen on copy. :rolleyes:

Glow
04-12-2008, 12:46 PM
i always chat to mormon missionaries when i bump into them because they have little to no chance of converts here and spend their days fairly fruitlessly and it seems a shame not to get the chance of a smile or two. often they are americans far from home.




how very nice to hear that you do that Floh. I always invite them in and offer them a cool drink since it seems they only drop by here in Fla in the dead heat of summer. I dont have to believe what someone else does in order to admire their deep conviction about what they believe.

golfmom
04-12-2008, 12:48 PM
how very nice to hear that you do that Floh. I always invite them in and offer them a cool drink since it seems they only drop by here in Fla in the dead heat of summer. I dont have to believe what someone else does in order to admire their deep conviction about what they believe.

I have some regulars that come by as well. I always take some time and visit and offer hospitality. No chance of conversion, but always pleasant conversation.

Glow
04-12-2008, 12:50 PM
Hey, Im sure they are happy for the conversation, right golfmom?
That may be even more true in the months to come if there is any negativity coming their way. :confused:

Linda7NJ
04-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Glad to hear this.

I've never bought into the Stockholm Syndrome. (Never thought Patty Hearst was innocent nor did the jury, but that's another story.) I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.

ACLU and Deprograming:
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm.htm#Cases
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm/acluo.htm#UNADORNED

Oh it's very real. That's why it's so easy for freaks to manipulate abducted children. When everything in your world becomes dependant upon another human being...food, clothes, sleep and even the ability to LIVE it makes them a slave to their will.

Glow
04-12-2008, 01:41 PM
I would imagine this is probably rare...

The story of an FLDS couple who made it out together.
Growing up, Pamela Black had only one goal. "I just wanted to get married and have babies because that is all I thought I could do." Her biggest fear was that she was going to be damned. "I thought that God would destroy me if I did not do what I was told," she tells New Times.God has a very real face in Colorado City. At the time, Pamela was a comely teenager. God was embodied in FLDS Prophet Leroy Johnson, or Uncle Leroy. Typically, girls turned over their name to the Prophet when they wanted to be married. In Pamela's case, the Prophet came to her. Uncle Leroy showed up at school while Pamela was singing in the choir Wow, he sure seems to be looking at me," Pamela recalls. "Sure enough, he was." Later that day, 17-year-old Pamela was summoned to a meeting with the Prophet. It is a major event in a young girl's life. "We have someone for you," Pamela says Uncle Leroy let on. The official line is that girls can refuse a marriage. "They give us a choice, but there's really no choice," Pamela says. "You either do what they say because [the Prophet is considered] God, or face damnation. "So, I got married." Her groom was 27-year-old Martin Black, a man she barely knew. After a brief courtship of holding hands and kissing, but rarely talking, the couple were married by Uncle Leroy. The night before the wedding, Pamela's mother told her about sex. Pamela spent her wedding night hiding in the bathroom, hoping to avoid the matrimonial bed. "I was brushing my teeth for an hour," she says. "Eventually, it had to happen." She got into bed. "Take off your nightgown," Pamela says her new husband told her. "I said, No.'" Her new husband ignored her plea. "And thus the sex act was performed against my will," Pamela says. "I was completely traumatized. I was raped." The night set the tone for their marriage. "He literally spent the night alone in the living room while I stayed in the bathroom crying," Pamela says. That such events transpired should not be a condemnation of Martin Black, Pamela says. Martin is a kind, gentle man of high integrity who raised a huge family on $12 an hour working for the school district. Martin, Pamela says, was as much a victim of FLDS doctrine as she was. There is nothing more important in the fundamentalist Mormon world than obedience. Martin had to obey the religious doctrine that he dominate his wife. "He told me he did it because he wanted to own me," Pamela says. "He wanted to prove that I belonged to him." Her husband expressed some backhanded regret for his hard-line stance. "He told me later that he would never do that - to his next wife," Pamela says. From that moment on, Pamela says, she put on a "mask" in public as the happy, dutiful wife. She adopted the "keep-sweet" mantra that the religion pounds into women's heads. Privately, with nowhere to turn, her emotions burst forth in uncontrollable fits. Her children suffered immensely. "The children witnessed a very angry mother," she says. Eventually, the outbursts became known to religious leaders, and pressure was directed toward Martin to divorce her."I knew I was in trouble," she says. "They were taking my kids away. They were taking everything from me because I would not submit. "I was reading books that were not allowed. I've been taught all my life that Buddha was the devil. I really wanted to learn about other cultures." The more she rebelled, the more the system ground on her at every turn. The FLDS assault on her free will, she says, constituted "soul murder." Pamela's rebellion was costing Martin his shot at the highest levels of heaven. He wasn't going to get another wife if he couldn't control the one he had. The couple traveled to Laughlin, Nevada, on a trip arranged by town officials to finalize the divorce. But something strange happened. On a walk along the banks of the Colorado River, they talked, and after a passionate night, they reconciled. "It was one of our best moments," she recalls, saying they felt as if they were rebelling against decades of repression. "We felt like kids again." Once the elders discovered Pamela and Martin were not divorcing, they were evicted from the home they had built on United Effort Plan property. Now free from the church and living separately on privately owned land in a beautiful canyon perched above Colorado City, the couple is trying to piece their lives together. Even though he was diagnosed with cancer and recently underwent brain surgery, Martin is upbeat. "I'm too busy to die," he said, standing waist deep in a ditch he had just finished digging for a sewer line with his backhoe. With no need to go through the Prophet anymore, Pamela and Martin say they are dealing with God directly. "I think for myself," Pam says.Recalling the FLDS' strong discouragement of television watching, Martin laughs. "I've got dish," he says.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy103.html

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 02:16 PM
One thing that puzzles me about Az and Utah and Colorado. They keep saying that they cannot find anyone willing to make a complaint about the child sexual abuse. Yet the reason we know about it is because of those who left the communities, who got out. And they are very vocal about what happened to them and what was happening to others. Are they not going to LE and filing complaints? Why aren't those states meeting with them and acting on their public complaints?

Fairy1
04-12-2008, 02:17 PM
Several years ago, my husband met a young women through work who eventually shared her own story with him. Although she wasn't raised in a cult, her family was isolated from mainstream society. She and her siblings were homeschooled, they were not allowed to watch television, listen to music, to play outside or have friends outside of the home. When she turned 18 (she was the oldest), her parents threw her out. She literally had no where to go, no friends, no other relatives and no knowledge whatsoever of the outside world. She was lucky to find her way to a new and productive life, but it could have gone horribly wrong for her. At the time she shared her story, she was in the process of legally gaining custody of her younger siblings, whom she was forced to leave behind.

Glow
04-12-2008, 02:24 PM
another article on understanding what is going on with the men of FLDS

Those males who stay are exploited as
cheap labour and are forced to “tithe” all
but a bare sustenance allowance back to the
United Effort Plan trust, which is currently
conservatively estimated to be worth
US$160 million. They are kept in line with
promises that if they are good, they will be
rewarded with the requisite number of
wives being assigned them, and with threats
that if they are bad they will lose their jobs
in FLDS-run companies and be ejected from
their homes on UEP-owned land.
As the authors of Life in Bountiful concluded,
“The frustrations resulting from
these extreme demands of obedience have
no outlet in the group beyond furtive, abusive
behaviour towards self and other.”
Jane Blackmore (former FLDS wife) believes the FLDS is a
cult and "the only way to break it up is with
education. Women and girls are the most obvious
victims, but not the only ones. "
http://www.inroadsjournal.ca/pdfs/Inroads_17_polygamy.pdf

golfmom
04-12-2008, 02:27 PM
Glow that was an incredible story. Thank you so much for posting it.

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 02:34 PM
Thanks for answering my post, MostlyLurking! :) I learn something new every day and other ways to see certain situations. It brings more questions and more anger towards the men in this group (as if I weren't already angry enough at the likes of them). I still cannot fathom how we have allowed this bs to continue this long without putting a stop to it.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 02:34 PM
Below is a great article about how things changed under Warren Jeffs rule. About an FLDS mother trying to get authorities to investigate the disappearance of her 15 year old daughter. Who was taken out of school during the day to be married off. Her mother has only seen her once since walking down a street. About those who are exciled worrying about family they left behind and a bloody holy war in the name of religion. Good stories at this link:

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

Linda7NJ
04-12-2008, 02:38 PM
Below is a great article about how things changed under Warren Jeffs rule. About an FLDS mother trying to get authorities to investigate the disappearance of her 15 year old daughter. Who was taken out of school during the day to be married off. Her mother has only seen her once since walking down a street. About those who are exiled worrying about family they left behind and a bloody holy war in the name of religion. Good stories at this link:

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 02:42 PM
One thing that puzzles me about Az and Utah and Colorado. They keep saying that they cannot find anyone willing to make a complaint about the child sexual abuse. Yet the reason we know about it is because of those who left the communities, who got out. And they are very vocal about what happened to them and what was happening to others. Are they not going to LE and filing complaints? Why aren't those states meeting with them and acting on their public complaints?

Funny how that happens isn't it? Read below. I'm pretty sure Colorado City Police Chief is FLDS himself! Talk about letting the fox watch the hen house! Or however that saying goes.

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

(snip)
Officials with Arizona's Division of Child, Youth and Family refused comment, citing confidentiality laws. Mohave County sheriffs deputies say they last investigated in October, when they were told that Nichole Holm has chosen to live with an aunt. Still, they sent the case to county prosecutors, who passed it on to the Arizona attorney general's office. A spokeswoman for the attorney general said "it's extremely unlikely" for her office to prosecute cases not pursued at the county level.
Colorado City Police Chief Roundy said his department investigated Holm's complaint, but acknowledged that officers didn't actually interview her. "I didn't feel I had to talk with her. It's done. It's been done forever. All the allocations (sic) of Lenore is not true. The girl is not married.
She has not been raped. Everything is upboard and legit," he said. Roundy promised to forward the investigative report to The Denver Post, but failed to do so. He said his department has responded to only five domestic abuse calls during his 12 years on the force.
"Anything reported, we'd investigate, of course. But we just don't have domestic problems. We've got family structure. They're decent, law-abiding citizens," he said.

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 02:42 PM
I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.I think under the circumstances, it would be the exception. For a woman to be able to come to her senses and leave is remarkable in itself. The children, as I understand it, are given to other mothers in order to prevent the mother from being able to gather them up and remove them. The law should have been able to walk in and get her children with a court order once she is out, but that doesn't happen for whatever reason (which I don't understand at all).

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 02:45 PM
I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.

That's why most of the women don't leave. They aren't allowed to take their kids. And authorities are of no help whatsoever. In that article, it talks about a mother trying to find her 15 year old daughter who was marriend of without her permission, and not getting any help. Alot of women are kicked out and no one helps them get their kids.

It's a rare case when an entire family gets kicked out together and can remain intact.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 02:49 PM
http://www.childbrides.org/cops_spec_chief_decertified_in_ruling_on_bigamy_ca se.html

ST. GEORGE - The Utah division of Peace Officer Standards and Training officially voted Tuesday to revoke the state certification of Colorado City Police Chief Sam Roundy, who's department also has jurisdiction over the bordering town of Hildale.

No one on the board opposed the motion to uphold the decision to decertify both Roundy and another officer.

An internal investigation judge found Roundy to be violating the bigamy laws, as well as improperly handling a child sex abuse case. In that case, Utah POST Director Rich Townsend said Roundy apparently did not properly report the incident to the Division of Child and Family Services.

The last time Utah POST decertified a police chief was three years ago when the Gunnison police chief was found to be using or disseminating police information improperly, Townsend said.

The Colorado City Police Department, where officers are certified in both Utah and Arizona, patrols the two towns dominated by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The FLDS church, led by Warren Jeffs, constitutes the largest polygamist group in North America.
(more at link)

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 02:57 PM
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,515039700,00.html

(snip and picture of the POF at link)
Former Hildale police officer Rodney Holm was decertified after being convicted in August of felony bigamy for having "spiritually married" a 16-year-old girl when he was already married.
Shurtleff thinks Holm's fellow officers and his chief, Colorado City, Ariz., Police Marshal Sam Roundy, knew about the situation but didn't take action in deference to Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist LDS Church where Holm is a member.

"It appears to me that chief Sam Roundy is not in control but that (Warren) Jeff's in control," Shurtleff told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday night. "We need to look into it and see if they are (bigamists)." Several women who formerly lived as polygamists in Hildale but have since left the lifestyle have told the AG's office that it is common knowledge among residents there that "you don't go to the police on issues, because they are loyal to the church," Shurtleff's chief deputy, Kirk Torgensen, said.

ETA: Enlarge that pic and tell me what teenage girl wants to have that on top of her....ugh.

Glow
04-12-2008, 03:13 PM
Glow that was an incredible story. Thank you so much for posting it.


Welcome Golfmom! :blowkiss:

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 03:18 PM
Sorry, Suzi...I can't even look at those pictures as I prefer to keep my lunch down. Everytime I see one another of those pervs, it makes my skin crawl.

I admit I have not read this entire thread, but please tell me there aren't people here that are in support of this.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:20 PM
Whoa, remember when Warren's brother was arrested resulting in a sex solicitation charge because the other guy wouldn't admit they were in a car on the way to deliver cash and other items to Warren? Well a letter from a Marshall of Colorado City who appears to want to replace Chief Roundy was found. IMO, that letter shows that Warren Jeffs was not only running Colorado City's Police Department. He was doing it while on the run. Holy Cow!

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy585.html


Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William. I have felt a unity between the peace officers. They have all stated to me their desire to follow the directives that are placed before us. I feel that I am the weakest one among them, but I want to fill the position that you would have me fill and do the job the way that you would like it done.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:23 PM
Sorry, Suzi...I can't even look at those pictures as I prefer to keep my lunch down. Everytime I see one another of those pervs, it makes my skin crawl.

I admit I have not read this entire thread, but please tell me there aren't people here that are in support of this.

Oh I can relate. It's hard to stomach. No one is in support of this. Some worry about rights being violated and hurting the women, children and the legal case in the long run. I think though, as more info has come out, most of those fears have been eleviated.

LinasK
04-12-2008, 03:26 PM
Whoa, remember when Warren's brother was arrested resulting in a sex solicitation charge because the other guy wouldn't admit they were in a car on the way to deliver cash and other items to Warren? Well a letter from the new Marshall of Colorado City that replaced Chief Roundy was found. IMO, that letter shows that Warren Jeffs was not only running Colorado City's Police Department. He was doing it while on the run. Holy Cow!

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy585.html


Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William. I have felt a unity between the peace officers. They have all stated to me their desire to follow the directives that are placed before us. I feel that I am the weakest one among them, but I want to fill the position that you would have me fill and do the job the way that you would like it done.

Sick, Sick, Sick!!!:sick: Here is the guy who is supposedly in a leadership position in his community, yet he is not protecting its members, he's obstructing justice and can't wait for Uncle Warren to return and run his life!:eek::sick::sick::sick:

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:36 PM
More info on Chief Marshal Fred Barlow:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html

(snip)
Chief Marshal Fred Barlow is facing revocation of his police certification by Arizona authorities, who cite an October 2005 letter Barlow wrote pledging allegiance to FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, then a wanted fugitive.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:39 PM
From the same article I linked above.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html


People who have left the FLDS faith claim marshals handle many crimes by reporting offenders to FLDS leaders, who dole out adjudication. Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith said he has told the marshals it's impossible their towns, with a shared population of about 6,000, have so little crime. Child abuse and sex abuse are present in every community, Smith said, but those offenses in particular are not being reported.

LinasK
04-12-2008, 03:45 PM
More info on Chief Marshal Fred Barlow:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html

(snip)
Chief Marshal Fred Barlow is facing revocation of his police certification by Arizona authorities, who cite an October 2005 letter Barlow wrote pledging allegiance to FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, then a wanted fugitive.

Good!:clap::clap::clap: They need to totally clean out this cesspool of *******s and bring in cops from the outside. These guys weren't pursuing the sex abuse cases anyhow unless they were involved themselves!

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:45 PM
Sick, Sick, Sick!!!:sick: Here is the guy who is supposedly in a leadership position in his community, yet he is not protecting its members, he's obstructing justice and can't wait for Uncle Warren to return and run his life!:eek::sick::sick::sick:

We know that physical abuse too often results in death. So what happened to those who died from abuse?

LinasK
04-12-2008, 03:47 PM
We know that physical abuse too often results in death. So what happened to those who died from abuse?


Ummm, I think that's why they're bringing in cadaver dogs in Texas. Probably what they did with the teenage boys.

mostlylurking
04-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Thanks for answering my post, MostlyLurking! :) I learn something new every day and other ways to see certain situations. It brings more questions and more anger towards the men in this group (as if I weren't already angry enough at the likes of them). I still cannot fathom how we have allowed this bs to continue this long without putting a stop to it.

Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)

In our whole society, I can't fathom how we let a lot of things continue.
We have the capabilities of righting so many wrongs, yet the wrongs just continue on and on and on and on......

legallee
04-12-2008, 03:48 PM
My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?
These mothers have never lived outside the compound. They never had a friend or a family member to tell them it's wrong. They have been taught from day one, it's "normal" thereforth they don't see it as abuse. Sadly, it's a way of life to them.

LinasK
04-12-2008, 03:49 PM
Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)


It's perfectly okay to just say, "I totally agree".

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:49 PM
Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)

In our whole society, I can't fathom how we let a lot of things continue.
We have the capabilities of righting so many wrongs, yet the wrongs just continue on and on and on and on......

What I find shocking is this isn't a matter of a rumor or two based on very little info. There is ton's of info out there. All you have to do is Google. And going by the dates of the info I am finding, people have been yelling from rooftops for decades.

mostlylurking
04-12-2008, 03:50 PM
It's perfectly okay to just say, "I totally agree".

Ha -- you don't know me. I'm not capable of something so easy.:crazy:

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 03:52 PM
These mothers have never lived outside the compound. They never had a friend or a family member to tell them it's wrong. They have been taught from day one, it's "normal" thereforth they don't see it as abuse. Sadly, it's a way of life to them.

Not to mention it's banged into their heads from the day they are born, that if they do any different they will go to hell.

Sally
04-12-2008, 03:53 PM
CRAWFORD — Residents in southeastern Delta County have alerted local law enforcement a polygamous fundamentalist Mormon group might have moved into the area.

Delta County Sheriff Fred McKee said several Crawford residents have contacted his office about a series of structures, including a lengthy privacy fence, that have sprung up on a 35-acre property nearly 10 miles west of here.
http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/11/041208_1a_Crawford_sect.html

This is on the Western Slope of Colrado and right in my backyard.
This/these groups have plenty of money. It can't all be welfare money.

LinasK
04-12-2008, 03:59 PM
http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/11/041208_1a_Crawford_sect.html

This is on the Western Slope of Colrado and right in my backyard.
This/these groups have plenty of money. It can't all be welfare money.

The privacy fence and the name Barlow would be sending up red flags for me!:eek::eek::eek:

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 04:01 PM
At the below link are snippets of Chief Fred Barlow's deposition in connection with decertifying him.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0809coloradocity0809.html

Investigator: "If you saw Warren Jeffs come in this town (as a fugitive) today, what would you do?"

Barlow: "I'm not gonna answer that question. . . . I don't think I should answer any questions about my religion."

Investigator: "What if Warren Jeffs gave you direction not to do something that you had to do by law?"

Barlow: "I don't believe that, uh, you should put me in a position . . . where I have to choose between my church and my job."

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 04:02 PM
http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/11/041208_1a_Crawford_sect.html

This is on the Western Slope of Colrado and right in my backyard.
This/these groups have plenty of money. It can't all be welfare money.

Deja Vu of Texas.

Leila
04-12-2008, 04:13 PM
Gosh. I hope this wasn't a ruse, but the evidence can still be used, right?

On the women issue... At first I sympathized with the women, i.e. brainwashing, but after some thought, I think it's best they be charged. There ARE women who have put two and two together and escaped, so obviously they knew the cult teachings were wrong. Women shouldn't be placed in a "protective" thought pattern just because they're women. What woman wouldn't feel it was wrong to watch her daughter being abused?

W/o records it may not be possible to find which woman is the natural mother of a child. A woman could easily obtain custody of a "sister's" children, then return to the same lifestyle. Younger kids may not actually know their birth mother is vs. many mommies.

As to the women who were not with their children at the time of the raid, my sympathies are with LE. Who's to say they really are mothers of these children?

In one of the CNN reports yesterday, the reporter on scene in Texas listed some of the evidence LE has seized. He mentioned 200+ boxes of documents, including birth and marriage records. I would imagine that even though the marriages were "spiritual marriages" there was a record of them. Hopefully, the records will help the authorities match up names, ages, and relationships.

I think we're going to find out that a lot of the children there, in the ages 12 and 13 age bracket, were there without parents. Their parents are probably in one of the other FLDS communities, and the children were chosen to go to the Texas compound for the purpose being child brides.

I think the women are going to have to be dealt with on an individual basis. If they have a young woman who's 18 (legally adult), who has 3 or 4 children, I would consider her to be an abused child as her first child was born to her when she was 14 or 15. It may be only a matter of a few months separating her from being considered a minor and an adult.

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 04:25 PM
Ha -- you don't know me. I'm not capable of something so easy.:crazy:If you read here often...you are probably painfully aware that I am not either. Hahahahaha~ :crazy: :crazy:

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 04:30 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=3007751

(snips)
Meanwhile, in court papers unsealed Friday, authorities said they found a "cyanide poisoning document" in their search of the compound in the town of Eldorado. But the 80-page list of items seized gave no further explanation.
Texas Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Tela Mange said the document consisted of pages torn out of a first-aid book on how to treat cyanide poisoning. But she said she didn't know why the sect would have such information on hand.
***
In 2003 and 2004, Jeffs, the spiritual leader of an estimated 6,000 followers in two adjoining towns along the Utah-Arizona line, plucked children under the age of 6 to bring to Texas, some without their parents, former sect member Isaac Wyler said.
"Over age 6 they were too contaminated for the world to be of use to God," said Wyler, who still lives in Colorado City, Ariz., and has 38 siblings. "He picked the ones that would be the most obedient, the ones that would be qualified to go to Zion."

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 04:37 PM
I don't understand. Why can't we raid the other compounds now that they have so much proof of wrongdoing within the organization? What is keeping the federal government from stepping in since they are taking kids across state lines and abusing them?! They need to arrest every last male over the age of 18 simultaneously in every compound, imo. Bring in the armed forces if neccessary.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 04:41 PM
I don't understand. Why can't we raid the other compounds now that they have so much proof of wrongdoing within the organization? What is keeping the federal government from stepping in since they are taking kids across state lines and abusing them?! They need to arrest every last male over the age of 18 simultaneously in every compound, imo. Bring in the armed forces if neccessary.



I beleive this will happen. I beleive the FBI will force utah, and colerado to step in and stop making excuses. I beleive they will be investigating many compounds. I posted about this before, but think it got over looked. Will scroll back and repost it.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 04:42 PM
Reposted cause I think it got overlooked!


Ok I have some things I want to add.

I believe that this is the tip of the ice burg. I believe that Utah, and arizona, and BC and any other location where the compounds are, are just sitting on this and waiting to see what happens. I believe that this will be the first of many raids going on. I believe that they will investigate and this is just the tip, of so much more. I believe it is going to get worse before it gets better. I believe this is the FIRST step in the US trying to eliminate these secret sects. Not just polygamist, but other ultra fundamentalist Christian, and or satanic groups.

The second thing. The Texas government has already declared this as a State disaster area. I believe before to long it will be called a Federal disaster area, Fema trailers will be brought in for volunteers, and state will get access to more resouces. This is not something that is small. It has turned into something very very big


I am on hold until the 17th. We have to wait until the hearing to determine if state gets full custody of these children before we can move in and help. Therefore I am waiting here in PA until after the 17th.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Reposted cause I think it got overlooked!


I think the FBI will force utah and arizona to start taking these investigations seriously. The FBI may even force utah and arizona to actively start investigate, and quit using the "constitutional rights" as an excuse for lack of investigating these compounds!

Taximom
04-12-2008, 04:49 PM
I don't understand. Why can't we raid the other compounds now that they have so much proof of wrongdoing within the organization? What is keeping the federal government from stepping in since they are taking kids across state lines and abusing them?! They need to arrest every last male over the age of 18 simultaneously in every compound, imo. Bring in the armed forces if neccessary.

It would be nice if LE could use a RICO type law to start an investigation of the entire group in all states. I can't remember all the crimes RICO covers, but surely these groups have broken at least 2 out of the 35 or so that RICO covers.

Sassygerl
04-12-2008, 04:54 PM
I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been posted, but came across of a forum for sisterwives....interesting.

http://sisterwives.yuku.com/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 04:55 PM
It would be nice if LE could use a RICO type law to start an investigation of the entire group in all states. I can't remember all the crimes RICO covers, but surely these groups have broken at least 2 out of the 35 or so that RICO covers.


Rico Information


http://www.ricoact.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act
http://graham.main.nc.us/~bhammel/INS/RICO.html

Trino
04-12-2008, 04:56 PM
I think the women are going to have to be dealt with on an individual basis. If they have a young woman who's 18 (legally adult), who has 3 or 4 children, I would consider her to be an abused child as her first child was born to her when she was 14 or 15. It may be only a matter of a few months separating her from being considered a minor and an adult.

It's going to depend on what these young women say. There are plenty of regular teens who have sex and are impregnated at 15 with an adult (over 18) father, yet the father is not charged (case in point: Jamie L Spears).

If these girls refuse to state they were abused/raped, how can these old men be prosecuted?

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 04:59 PM
It's going to depend on what these young women say. There are plenty of regular teens who have sex and are impregnated at 15 with an adult (over 18) father, yet the father is not charged (case in point: Jamie L Spears).

If these girls refuse to state they were abused/raped, how can these old men be prosecuted?


I think the DNA would prove that they were raped. Anyone who is caught to be haveing sex with anyone under the age of 16 can be charged with statutory rape. These girls being pregnant, just prooves they had to have sex, and once they test the babys for DNA they will find the fathers to be older men!

Taximom
04-12-2008, 05:01 PM
Yes, ladybass, DNA will definitely play an important part in this. I hope they can find these men and get their DNA.

Thanks for the RICO links!

Glow
04-12-2008, 05:02 PM
It's going to depend on what these young women say. There are plenty of regular teens who have sex and are impregnated at 15 with an adult (over 18) father, yet the father is not charged (case in point: Jamie L Spears).

If these girls refuse to state they were abused/raped, how can these old men be prosecuted?

Very good point Trino.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 05:03 PM
LadyBass, I did see your posts and I hope that Texas is the beginning of stopping these groups. They are out of hand.

Taximom
04-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Even if RICO isn't the appropriate law, there has to be a way to link what happened in TX to the other compounds.

I'm hoping for a WS legal eagle to step in and talk about this aspect.

mostlylurking
04-12-2008, 05:09 PM
If you read here often...you are probably painfully aware that I am not either. Hahahahaha~ :crazy: :crazy:

I read daily!
I find it really intersting on any given topic how I can so agree with someone & then on another think "oh, man where are they coming from????"

I seem to tend toward yours, SCM & TGIRecovered in similar thoughts process a lot of the time.

Leila
04-12-2008, 05:09 PM
Whoa, remember when Warren's brother was arrested resulting in a sex solicitation charge because the other guy wouldn't admit they were in a car on the way to deliver cash and other items to Warren? Well a letter from a Marshall of Colorado City who appears to want to replace Chief Roundy was found. IMO, that letter shows that Warren Jeffs was not only running Colorado City's Police Department. He was doing it while on the run. Holy Cow!

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy585.html


Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William. I have felt a unity between the peace officers. They have all stated to me their desire to follow the directives that are placed before us. I feel that I am the weakest one among them, but I want to fill the position that you would have me fill and do the job the way that you would like it done.

It sounds like there needs to be a thorough house-cleaning of the local police department.

Glow
04-12-2008, 05:11 PM
I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been posted, but came across of a forum for sisterwives....interesting.

http://sisterwives.yuku.com/


Thanks for the link!

golfmom
04-12-2008, 05:12 PM
It sounds like there needs to be a thorough house-cleaning of the local police department.

Absolutely craziness. :bang:

Glow
04-12-2008, 05:13 PM
What do you all think? Would this work?


Although I don’t agree with plural marriage, I don’t think the U.S. can keep it illegal for long. We are on the threshold of a revolution in what we know to be the nuclear family – “traditional family values.” The debate about legalizing same-sex marriage is coming to head and soon this issue will have to be resolved. If same-sex marriage is legalized, we will have to address other types of non-traditional relationships as well. Polygamists in the U.S. are very organized – they will petition for legalization when they think they can win.

If legalized, non-traditional marriages and the people in them would cease to be a countercultural faction or a subculture, and, after a time, would be assimilated into “normal” American society. It will take compromises from both sides but legalization is the first step. And if it does happen, then people like Jeffs would have one less lever of power to allow him to brainwash and control people.

http://www.dailyevergreen.com/story/23269

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 05:17 PM
It sounds like there needs to be a thorough house-cleaning of the local police department.

From my internet travels today, I think what ultimately happened was Colorado City PD was disbanded and a Justice office was put into place. This consisted of State picked investigators from out of the area and a CPS employee and victim advocates. Washington County Utah Sheriffs Office I think took over the patrols and enforcement. That's what appears to have happened.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 05:23 PM
I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been posted, but came across of a forum for sisterwives....interesting.

http://sisterwives.yuku.com/

Thank you for the link. It's very interesting.

Trino
04-12-2008, 05:23 PM
This sect is just a little Peyton Place, isn't it?

Reference this article from ABC on why it might be difficult to prosecute:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4640860

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 05:32 PM
"That 16-year-old is the linchpin for probable cause. She is the reason they said they had cause to go in and do this search. If that is not present, if they can't establish probable cause, then everything they gathered in the search will likely be suppressed," said legal analyst Jonathan Turley today on "Good Morning America Weekend."

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4640067&page=1

Glow
04-12-2008, 05:33 PM
my gosh these stories are just grabbing my heart....

this is one brave woman...Im glad she is still there to offer counsel to the younger ones (apostate that she is :) )

Julia Thomas had a beautiful herb and flower garden around her Colorado City home.

It was a home she had built with her own hands, much to the dismay of religious leaders who don't like women displaying such independence.

She loved her little spot on Earth as much as she cherished the fundamentalist Mormon creed.

"I made a covenant a long time ago that I would give my life to the gospel," Thomas said. "I'm doing it."

The 70-something Thomas has more than 70 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. During her lifetime in Colorado City, she has seen tumultuous events in her religion. But nothing like the split that occurred 20 years ago.

At that time, a battle emerged over whether a council of seven men should lead the FLDS, or whether all power should rest with one.

Thomas opted for the council of seven, but her side lost the battle when former Prophet Leroy Johnson assumed control of the FLDS in 1984.

The congregation in Colorado City has been ruled by a single man ever since. After Uncle Leroy came the Jeffses, Rulon and then Warren. Those who had opposed one-man rule soon found themselves in trouble, even if they were still faithful to the religious doctrine.

Like many FLDS faithful, Thomas had built her home on United Effort Plan property under the assumption that she could remain as long as she wished. But soon after Rulon Jeffs assumed power in 1986, the religion notified everyone living on UEP land that they were "tenants at will" and could be evicted.

Many in the community were shocked. Eventually, 21 people filed a class-action lawsuit seeking to retain title to the homes they had paid for and built on the land.

Led by a handful of activists, including Ben Bistline, the suit cost plaintiffs more than a million dollars and dragged on for more than a decade. A Utah state court judge finally ruled that the UEP could not evict plaintiffs from their homes, unless they paid fair market value for them. Once the homeowner died, the judge ruled, the land and home would revert to the UEP.

After the suit was settled, the UEP tightened language in its charter and resumed evictions against anyone who was not in "harmony" with the Prophet.

Lenore Holm quickly found herself out of favor in August 2000, when she protested the planned spiritual marriage of her 16-year-old daughter, Nicole, to a 39-year-old man as his second wife.

The UEP immediately sought to evict Holm and her children from the Colorado City home that she and her husband, Milton, were building. The 39-year-old Lenore has 14 children - nine were still in the parents' care.

Rather than turning over the property, which most people do when it is demanded by the UEP, Lenore Holm chose to fight the eviction in Mohave County Superior Court. The case is pending, and the Holms remain in the house. But Lenore's 16-year-old moved in with the man, and the couple were married soon after she turned 18.

As for the elderly Thomas, who is divorced and was not a plaintiff in the lawsuit, she wound up getting evicted from the home she had paid for and built.

"They gave me three days' notice to leave," she said.

The UEP then bulldozed her house, and the property was given to a member of the powerful Barlow family.

"I've been a good girl, and they abused me," Thomas said.

But unlike many who have had to leave town upon eviction, the elderly Thomas was lucky. She didn't have to move far. She converted an old garage on a relative's private land into a small home for less than $1,000. There, she's replanted her herb garden and counsels young FLDS women who call on her for advice - despite her status as an apostate.

For a while after she was driven out, she wondered if the FLDS would come looking for her. "I was afraid for my life," she said. "But God was with me."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy103.html

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 05:36 PM
"The search uncovered a pregnancy test, a "cyanide poisoning document" and medical records for women with the same name given by the 16-year-old girl. "

This is wonderful news! This confirms that the girl was a legitimate girl! It also confirms that the call was legitimate! I highly doubt that the search warrent will be thrown out.

Wonderful news for the state!

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4640067&page=1

adnoid
04-12-2008, 06:08 PM
...DNA will definitely play an important part in this...

In all honesty, with all the inbreeding, they're going to have to work extra hard to make sure they get the right ones.

Every day I become more disgusted with the leaders of this "church".

cheko1
04-12-2008, 06:15 PM
"The search uncovered a pregnancy test, a "cyanide poisoning document" and medical records for women with the same name given by the 16-year-old girl. "

This is wonderful news! This confirms that the girl was a legitimate girl! It also confirms that the call was legitimate! I highly doubt that the search warrent will be thrown out.

Wonderful news for the state!

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4640067&page=1

I sincerely doubt the state would of left themselves that wide open to lawsuits. They had the girls name & will put it all together.

They feel the girl is in severe danger & may have already removed her for her own protection.

cheko1
04-12-2008, 06:19 PM
In all honesty, with all the inbreeding, they're going to have to work extra hard to make sure they get the right ones.

Every day I become more disgusted with the leaders of this "church".

I agree with you Adnoid. What a job they have in front of them.

I don't feel this is in anyway associated with church. Its a bunch of dirty old sex offenders who rape little girls!

Leila
04-12-2008, 06:19 PM
These mothers have never lived outside the compound. They never had a friend or a family member to tell them it's wrong. They have been taught from day one, it's "normal" thereforth they don't see it as abuse. Sadly, it's a way of life to them.

I think it's very very difficult for any of us here to imagine what it was like growing up in such a perverted culture and believing it was the way life is supposed to be.

We've all been exposed to a world of freedom. We've all made choices, lots of choices, in our lives. Beginning when we're very young, we have had the opportunity to choose, whether it be something as simple as what flavor of ice cream we want, or a life decision like a career choice or choice of spouse. At this moment, any of us could decide to go see a movie today, and jump in the car and go to the movie theater. To those living in the FLDS, they cannot even dream of such freedom of choice.

We're dealing with people who have never had the opportunity to make even the simplest choices. Their lives were completely scripted for them by a demented authoritarian, who uses people to feed his evil desires for power, control, and sexual perversion.

Our anger stems from the knowledge of having lived a life of freedom, we can understand how wrong the FLDS life is. Our understanding is based on our ability to compare their lifestyle to ours and others. But, for FLDS members, they have nothing to compare.

Last night CNN had a brief segment on some of the lost boys. Many of them have resorted to drugs and alcohol and haven't had much in the way of help. But, someone in St. George, Utah bought an older house and is making a refuge for exiled boys from the FLDS. There, they will always have food and shelter. One lost boy was laying a tile floor in the kitchen, helping with the renovation.

Building on that concept, it might be necessary to have some sort of half-way houses for those women leaving the FLDS. They need time to adjust to life outside the cult, to become de-programmed, to experience making choices for themselves and gaining confidence. This is where those, like Carolyn Jessop, who successfully left the FLDS can really help.

Pepper
04-12-2008, 06:23 PM
Beautiful post Leila!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-12-2008, 06:35 PM
-- Texas Rangers meet with and then release a man suspected of abusing a teenage girl at a polygamist compound.


Per CNN

Leila
04-12-2008, 06:35 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=3007751

(snips)
Meanwhile, in court papers unsealed Friday, authorities said they found a "cyanide poisoning document" in their search of the compound in the town of Eldorado. But the 80-page list of items seized gave no further explanation.
Texas Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Tela Mange said the document consisted of pages torn out of a first-aid book on how to treat cyanide poisoning. But she said she didn't know why the sect would have such information on hand.
***
In 2003 and 2004, Jeffs, the spiritual leader of an estimated 6,000 followers in two adjoining towns along the Utah-Arizona line, plucked children under the age of 6 to bring to Texas, some without their parents, former sect member Isaac Wyler said.
"Over age 6 they were too contaminated for the world to be of use to God," said Wyler, who still lives in Colorado City, Ariz., and has 38 siblings. "He picked the ones that would be the most obedient, the ones that would be qualified to go to Zion."

This answers the question of why the children are having difficulties telling the authorities who their parents are. There are some children who've been separated from their parents since they were under the age of 6.

I bet those three mothers who complained that their children were taken in the raid "while they were out of town" are mothers who now live in Colordo City, AZ or Hildale, UT and have children that were sent to the Texas compound without them.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 06:44 PM
-- Texas Rangers meet with and then release a man suspected of abusing a teenage girl at a polygamist compound.


Per CNN

I hope they somehow got a DNA sample before releasing him.

Pepper
04-12-2008, 06:47 PM
I hope they somehow got a DNA sample before releasing him.

One of the reasons why I support mandatory DNA and a national DNA database every time someone is arrested. If they have to give up a set of prints, then why not DNA?

SeriouslySearching
04-12-2008, 06:55 PM
I read daily!
I find it really interesting on any given topic how I can so agree with someone & then on another think "oh, man where are they coming from????"

I seem to tend toward yours, SCM & TGIRecovered in similar thoughts process a lot of the time.I am glad you are joining us! Can't wait to read more from you. :blowkiss:

On this topic, it infuriates me the more we are learning about this organization and how this has been going on for so very long. They have been free to do whatever they pleased! Wow! It is so hard to wrap my head around it all. :furious:

Does that really prove the call from the 16 year old was legit?! :confused:

Glow
04-12-2008, 07:01 PM
I bet those three mothers who complained that their children were taken in the raid "while they were out of town" are mothers who now live in Colordo City, AZ or Hildale, UT and have children that were sent to the Texas compound without them.


There are probably some of both.... These sound legitimate

All three women, who said they live at the YFZ ranch, which was raided last week by Texas officials, were emotional in sharing their personal details but did not want their full names published. .
All three women said they happened to be gone from the polygamist sect's ranch on the day the raid began. They returned as soon as they heard of the state's actions.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

Trino
04-12-2008, 07:02 PM
I hope they somehow got a DNA sample before releasing him.

I don't know that a DNA would be beneficial. Everyone seems to be related.

Glow
04-12-2008, 07:05 PM
These sound like they may be out of town parents:

I watched yesterday as state troopers -- 10 of them, as best as I could tell -- questioned an FLDS man and woman in a parking lot across from Fort Concho, where 416 children and 139 from the sect are being held.

As the man spoke with one plainsclothes officer, he gestured animatedly. He appeared to be in his late 20s or early 30s. The officer and the man shook hands for a long time afterwards.
The woman, who was questioned separately, looked to be the same age. She was calm.
The conversation lasted about 10 or 15 minutes. The couple then got back in their white extended passenger van and drove slowly out of the parking lot.
The van had a Nevada plate. I don't know why the pair came to Fort Concho.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 07:05 PM
I don't know that a DNA would be beneficial. Everyone seems to be related.

This will be a new one for geneticists (sp) everywhere. It will interesting to find out if such refined testing is possible.

Leila
04-12-2008, 07:09 PM
Even if RICO isn't the appropriate law, there has to be a way to link what happened in TX to the other compounds.

I'm hoping for a WS legal eagle to step in and talk about this aspect.

I think the other FLDS communities will come into this. If there's minor children who were removed from the compound in Texas, and their parents can't be located in Texas, they're going to be looking into the other communities in Arizona and Utah for the parents. Also, some of the husbands of those minor mothers may leave Texas and go to another FLDS community, and as the investigation goes forth, the authorities will be looking for them.

cheko1
04-12-2008, 07:09 PM
I can't understand how some of the women could escape with there children & get to safety. Where others hand there children over to be raped. The women must talk.....

Its just beyond my comprehension. I'm going back to read the article on sister wives / hopefully that will help me. LOL :eek:

Leila
04-12-2008, 07:13 PM
From my internet travels today, I think what ultimately happened was Colorado City PD was disbanded and a Justice office was put into place. This consisted of State picked investigators from out of the area and a CPS employee and victim advocates. Washington County Utah Sheriffs Office I think took over the patrols and enforcement. That's what appears to have happened.

I'm glad to hear something was done about the situation! The wheels of justice are turning............:)

Glow
04-12-2008, 07:19 PM
This is also going to be a new one for people who study law, civil rights, and ethics for years to come.

I wonder if the state is allowing cell phone calls to be made by the women inside who are "free" to leave if they wish. I also wonder if any of the women had cell phones if they have been allowed to keep them?

golfmom
04-12-2008, 07:21 PM
Long interesting article ... worth the read.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gl6PfqM0r9MVD91Jkn4wU1FTIPvAD900GSQG0

PHOENIX (AP) — Polygamous sect members who were moved to a Texas compound from their longtime homes along the Utah-Arizona line were hand-picked for their fierce loyalty to leader Warren Jeffs, and that allegiance may be a stumbling block for law enforcement, authorities say.
.......
"This was Warren Jeffs' all-star cast," said Goddard, who has been investigating the sect since 2004. "They had the strongest sense of obedience."

As a result, their extreme devotion could make it hard on Texas authorities as they push for prosecutions, said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.
.....
Eldorado "is the most concentrated version of this particular style of life," he said.

Glow
04-12-2008, 07:40 PM
I like this guys photography as well as his comments

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

trixie
04-12-2008, 07:45 PM
One of the reasons why I support mandatory DNA and a national DNA database every time someone is arrested. If they have to give up a set of prints, then why not DNA?

Do they only have to give DNA if it is a sex crime? My thinking is they might not take a DNA sample until a person is convicted. An arrest doesn't mean someone is guilty. But just thinking, I dunno......:confused:

trixie
04-12-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't know that a DNA would be beneficial. Everyone seems to be related.

This DNA problem is quite a quagmire isn't it? What makes it worse is so many of them share the same name. So you take 5 DNA samples from 5 girls with the same name, how would you futher identify them in order to tell whose is whose? They certainly couldn't just write down their name. They have to take it one step further with these people. I thought about using a social security number for identy. I always thought one needed a social security number to qualify for welfare. We already know these children were not born in hospitals and their births were never registered with the State, I wonder if they were assigned SS#'s at the welfare office? Without having met the criteria the rest of us would have to meet which is a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen and and social security # I don't understand how these people were getting aid from the State of Texas unless Texas threw the rulebook out the window when these people came in and accomodated them anyway. Texas has some 'splainin" to do too, IMO.:(

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 08:28 PM
I like this guys photography as well as his comments

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

How did you find that site? The photogs commentary is fascinating. Especially when observing the older woman in the light blue dress. The photo when she leaves is very powerful.

SuziQ
04-12-2008, 08:30 PM
Texas has some 'splainin" to do too, IMO.:(

So does Utah and AZ. The more I think about it, this has to become an interstate investigation.

Linda7NJ
04-12-2008, 08:49 PM
This is also going to be a new one for people who study law, civil rights, and ethics for years to come.

I wonder if the state is allowing cell phone calls to be made by the women inside who are "free" to leave if they wish. I also wonder if any of the women had cell phones if they have been allowed to keep them?

I would hope that LE makes them use tapped phones....with a warrant of course;)

Glow
04-12-2008, 09:11 PM
How did you find that site? The photogs commentary is fascinating. Especially when observing the older woman in the light blue dress. The photo when she leaves is very powerful.


I thought so too Suzi,

I found this guy from reading Brooke Adams at the Salt Lake City Tribune. There has been so much biased reporting in the news that I go to her site to help me lean the other way in an effort to stay in reality and seperate fact from fiction! last night I was so bugged that I wrote a two page diatribe just on one article alone! :p anyway.........in reading her blog she mentioned her photographer by name and it is this Trent fellow.

short question...long answer/sorry :blowkiss:

Glow
04-12-2008, 09:12 PM
I would hope that LE makes them use tapped phones....with a warrant of course;)


Thats fine with me! They can tap and warrant away....just let those women be able to talk to the family members who must be frantic at this point.

trixie
04-12-2008, 09:23 PM
So does Utah and AZ. The more I think about it, this has to become an interstate investigation.

Hi SuziQ! I agree.:)

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 09:26 PM
I like this guys photography as well as his comments

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

Thanks for posting that. TV media shots of the compound that I had seen didn't show me nearly as much about the compound. They mainly show the Temple. The community is a lot larger than I expected.

One thing I wonder about is the houses. Are homes of individual families or like family dormitories? The homes are huge and seem to have room for more than one family- even large families. There doesn't seem to be enough of them to be individual family homes.

What I noted about the trip to the buses. Most women were walking in pairs, most carried bags, pillows or boxes if they weren't carrying children. LE also carried luggage. So the women appear to have had a chance to pack for themselves and their children. No apparent crying women or children being "ripped" from parents. Everything appears calm. ETA: I saw one photo of women crying. An older woman joined the group and began hugging some of the girls. As she was taken to another area, one of the other women began crying.

mysteriew
04-12-2008, 09:52 PM
I was thinking about the probable cause issue. From what I have heard, CPS only has to have a complaint and they are required to make a visit. They ask for entry, and if they don't get entry they can request a search warrant. Which seems to have happened. So this is probably how they will get by with the 'probable cause' issue.

Had the FLDS allowed entry, allowed them to speak with some girl (any girl) who claimed to have made the call most likely none of this would have happened. The girl could have denied and made some excuse for the call. They would have done their investigation on the one girl alone. But when the elders refused to allow their investigation that opened it up. When they made entry and began searching, the number of pregnant girls they found gave them cause for removing.

Glow
04-12-2008, 10:57 PM
The thing that worries me the most is the precedents that are getting set here.

Leila
04-12-2008, 11:57 PM
I like this guys photography as well as his comments

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

Thank you for the link! This man's photography is excellent and far better than some we've seen.

I was fascinated by his commentary. I immediately saw the resemblance to Warren Jeffs in the photo of the older woman........I suspect she might be his mother.

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:11 AM
That might be true. I hadnt thought of that. It would make sense though wouldnt it. Somewhere tonight I saw a link to a picture of the Warren Jeff (the one who got arrested...Levi maybe?) he looks just like his dad blech :sick:

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:18 AM
Long interesting article ... worth the read.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gl6PfqM0r9MVD91Jkn4wU1FTIPvAD900GSQG0

PHOENIX (AP) — Polygamous sect members who were moved to a Texas compound from their longtime homes along the Utah-Arizona line were hand-picked for their fierce loyalty to leader Warren Jeffs, and that allegiance may be a stumbling block for law enforcement, authorities say.
.......
"This was Warren Jeffs' all-star cast," said Goddard, who has been investigating the sect since 2004. "They had the strongest sense of obedience."

As a result, their extreme devotion could make it hard on Texas authorities as they push for prosecutions, said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.
.....
Eldorado "is the most concentrated version of this particular style of life," he said.

Thanks for the link golfmom

This article gave a good timeline of events.

Leila
04-13-2008, 12:22 AM
The El Dorado Success has published a public notice subpoena to all the parents of the children removed from the YFZ compound. There's a list of the children's names, and a list of the parents names at this link:

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

Truly
04-13-2008, 12:48 AM
The El Dorado Success has published a public notice subpoena to all the parents of the children removed from the YDZ compound. There's a list of the children's names, and a list of the parents names at this link:

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html


WOW! Thanks Leila!

There are several Sarah's. And they have only been able to list the birthdates for some of the older people. So many of the kids have no last names or birthdates.

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 12:50 AM
Looks like authorities are not going to play the game of "who is the parent, not my kid." They will make them claim the children or declare them abandoned.

Moms will most likely , step forward, so that will give them one parent. They are calling the parents "identified as alleged parents". I would almost bet they will DNA test the Moms. Can they order all the men at the compound to give a DNA sample if the fathers don't step up?

Truly
04-13-2008, 12:52 AM
I immediately saw the resemblance to Warren Jeffs in the photo of the older woman........I suspect she might be his mother.

It would figure that Warren Jeffs knew who his real mother was, whereas none of the kids in his twisted little cult compound were allowed to have their own mommy. :mad:

Notice, too, that 'Old Blue' only came to visit...she did not stay with the kids. I think that the real moms will ultimately identify their own kids.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 12:55 AM
Does this mean the hearing will be on May 5th?

“YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to appear and answer before the Honorable 51st Judicial District Court, Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at the Courthouse in Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at or before 10:00 a.m. on the Monday next after the expiration of twenty (20) days from the date of service of this citation, then and there to answer the Original Petitions of the TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES, Petitioner, filed in said Court.

adnoid
04-13-2008, 12:58 AM
Looks like authorities are not going to play the game of "who is the parent, not my kid." They will make them claim the children or declare them abandoned...

Looks like they've got some sharp cookies in the local LE. Good thinking!

barb0301
04-13-2008, 01:03 AM
Rico Information


http://www.ricoact.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act
http://graham.main.nc.us/~bhammel/INS/RICO.html

It looks like they could use the RICO Act under the
"18 USC Sec. 1961 01/16/96
''sections 2251 through 2252 (relating to sexual exploitation of children)"

source: http://www.landrights.com/18usc1961.htm and link from Ladybass

Leila
04-13-2008, 01:04 AM
WOW! Thanks Leila!

There are several Sarah's. And they have only been able to list the birthdates for some of the older people. So many of the kids have no last names or birthdates.

It looks like the CPS has assembled the best list they could come up with. I would suspect that this subpoena has not only been published in the local El Dorado newspaper, but has also been served on the YFZ compound, and probably also published in the local newspapers for Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona.

Leila
04-13-2008, 01:07 AM
Does this mean the hearing will be on May 5th?

“YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to appear and answer before the Honorable 51st Judicial District Court, Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at the Courthouse in Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas, at or before 10:00 a.m. on the Monday next after the expiration of twenty (20) days from the date of service of this citation, then and there to answer the Original Petitions of the TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES, Petitioner, filed in said Court.

SuzyQ............that's the way I read it. The subpoena was dated April 11, 2008 and states the Monday after 20 days has expired. The 20 days would be up on May 1st, and the next Monday would be May 5th.

Leila
04-13-2008, 01:12 AM
Did everyone make note of the surnames on the lists? For the most part, the surnames are - Jeffs, Barlow, Jessop/Jessup, and Steed. There are other surnames on the list, but the above surnames dominate the list.

txsvicki
04-13-2008, 01:37 AM
This DNA problem is quite a quagmire isn't it? What makes it worse is so many of them share the same name. So you take 5 DNA samples from 5 girls with the same name, how would you futher identify them in order to tell whose is whose? They certainly couldn't just write down their name. They have to take it one step further with these people. I thought about using a social security number for identy. I always thought one needed a social security number to qualify for welfare. We already know these children were not born in hospitals and their births were never registered with the State, I wonder if they were assigned SS#'s at the welfare office? Without having met the criteria the rest of us would have to meet which is a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen and and social security # I don't understand how these people were getting aid from the State of Texas unless Texas threw the rulebook out the window when these people came in and accomodated them anyway. Texas has some 'splainin" to do too, IMO.:(

You do have to list a social security number for children on the foodstamp, tanf, and medicaid applications. Maybe the real parents got them one soon as they were born since they knew they would be wanting foodstamps. These creeps are going to endanger many other Texas kids who may not get the help that they need as quickly due to all the foster and group homes having to take these kids in.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:41 AM
When I see this on the list I become furious! Someone knows that baby's name. That means some are refusing to either claim or name him. No baby deserves that. IMO, if you are too young to tell your name you are SOL....nice.
***

2893 IN THE INTEREST OF UNKNOWN BABY BOY #26609354, A CHILD

Taximom
04-13-2008, 01:42 AM
It looks like they could use the RICO Act under the
"18 USC Sec. 1961 01/16/96
''sections 2251 through 2252 (relating to sexual exploitation of children)"

source: http://www.landrights.com/18usc1961.htm and link from Ladybass

For RICO to be used against them, I believe they have to have committed at minimum 2 of the crimes specified under the RICO act. I wouldn't doubt there's some money laundering or other financial crimes in the FLDS....

Truly
04-13-2008, 01:43 AM
There are 122 children individually listed in cases # 2779 through #2901

Then, # 2902 is IN THE INTEREST OF 330 CHILDREN TAKEN FROM THE YFZ RANCH

And, #2903 is IN THE INTEREST OF 16 CHILDREN TAKEN FROM THE YFZ RANCH

I wonder if the sixteen were the young pregnant girls, already assigned to foster care. I also wonder if the 122 children listed were small kids who had not yet given birth. In other words, if the children who were not specifically listed were already mothers themselves?

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 01:43 AM
Maybe Texas needs to move them onto an Army base camp for not only their protection, but to keep the foster system from being overloaded and reduce the burden. They can have counselors and whatever they need come into the base for their care.

DNA is going to be a nightmare and take a very long time. Their true identities may never be known if their real parents are no longer part of the group, are deceased, or reside in other camps they do not have access to.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:48 AM
It will be interesting how the FLDS community will handle the hearing on May 5th. Who will show, who won't. What will happen at the hearing? They appear before the judge and?

Taximom
04-13-2008, 01:52 AM
I was looking at the pictures on the trenthead site and I'm just overwhelmed at the size of the compound. Seeing pictures of the temple on its own is amazing, but seeing people standing next to it looking so small is a whole different story.

The pictures of the women remind me of 'The Stepford Wives' movie.

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 01:57 AM
The church has allegedly taught them not to give the correct identities for themselves and their children, the church is alleged to take their male children away from them and turn them out, the church is alleged to have taken their female children from them and forced them into marriage. Will the church now force them to renounce their children that are now in custody, in order to cover up any crimes?

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:00 AM
Will the church now force them to renounce their children that are now in custody, in order to cover up any crimes?

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that only a handful of women show up to claim their kids.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:03 AM
I was looking at the pictures on the trenthead site and I'm just overwhelmed at the size of the compound. Seeing pictures of the temple on its own is amazing, but seeing people standing next to it looking so small is a whole different story.

The pictures of the women remind me of 'The Stepford Wives' movie.

I was overwhelmed at the size of it too. I think Trent has the best shots I've seen that give a good idea as to what YFZ Ranch entails. All I could think of while looking at the pics were, you'd need alot of slave labor to run that place.

Truly
04-13-2008, 02:06 AM
I was looking at the pictures on the trenthead site and I'm just overwhelmed at the size of the compound. Seeing pictures of the temple on its own is amazing, but seeing people standing next to it looking so small is a whole different story.

The pictures of the women remind me of 'The Stepford Wives' movie.

No kidding about the compound! That place took an enormous amount of money to build. They aren't just squeaking by with food stamps; they are rolling in cash. And, what's up with that whole yard full of massive spools? If that is copper wire, there must be a million dollars sitting right there. Even if it's aluminum, hundreds of thousands.

The Stepford Wives are Married to The Mormon Mafia.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:35 AM
http://www.kutv.com/content/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d8eecfb2-0174-4aed-bfcc-b9854fa6cffa

The 50-year-old man accused of raping and beating his 16-year-old wife was questioned and then released by Texas investigators. Dale Barlow has been the center of the FLDS raids in Texas, now he’s back in Colorado City and he wants an apology from the state. (more at link)

barb0301
04-13-2008, 02:40 AM
For RICO to be used against them, I believe they have to have committed at minimum 2 of the crimes specified under the RICO act. I wouldn't doubt there's some money laundering or other financial crimes in the FLDS....

I don't think they have to commit 2 different crimes, rather, they have to be able to prove a "pattern". Proving a pattern requires that they prove

1. Relatedness: criminal actions that form the pattern must "have the same or similar purposes, results, participants, victims, or methods of commission
2. Continuity: A party alleging a RICO violation may demonstrate continuity over a closed period by proving a series of related predicates extending over a substantial period of time." According to my research, the 4 years in TX would satisfy this requirement
3. Multiple Schemes - this one is the most difficult, but is also dependent on which circuit you are filing in. Some courts ignore it altogether. Some would see multiple transfers of adolescents across the state line for sexual purposes as multiple schemes and others would need both the transfer of adolescents and then the marriages to older men. However, I don't think it would be hard to prove.

Leila
04-13-2008, 02:56 AM
It will be interesting how the FLDS community will handle the hearing on May 5th. Who will show, who won't. What will happen at the hearing? They appear before the judge and?

The hearing on April 17th will tell us if the state of Texas intends on retaining custody of the children. I suspect that's a foregone conclusion, as they've now issued a subpoena suing the parents of the children.

We haven't seen the criminal complaints, and I'm assuming that there's a complaint for each child depending on the individual nature of alleged abuse. The parent/parents will have to appear in court and answer to the charges, pleading guilty or not guilty. I suspect the FLDS will provide an attorney or attorneys for the parents that do appear in Texas. They'll probably ask for a continuance.

I read an article in the Salt Lake City Tribune tonight that states.........

In preparation for next week's hearing, a roundup of Texas lawyers is under way.
As many as 350 lawyers may be needed to represent the children, according to Tom Vick, a family practice lawyer helping to recruit attorneys. Already, 250 have volunteered. Who will pay them is unclear.
"The lawyers who have gone out there are going out there with the understanding they may never be paid a dime for it," Vick said.
In the vast state of Texas, hundreds of family law attorneys are in practice, though not all of them may have had experience in foster-care cases, he said.
On Friday, volunteer lawyers in San Angelo spent four hours going through training to act as attorneys ad litem, he said.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8900472

This tells me that the state is planning on appointing an attorney for each child or perhaps an attorney will represent two or three siblings. They are preparing to act in the best interests of each child and are training in foster care. It would appear that foster care is the goal of the Texas authorities.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 03:04 AM
Thank you Leila, I wonder if the parents will have to post bail? If the parents don't show up for this hearing, will an arrest warrant be issued?

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:30 AM
Looks like authorities are not going to play the game of "who is the parent, not my kid." They will make them claim the children or declare them abandoned.

Moms will most likely , step forward, so that will give them one parent. They are calling the parents "identified as alleged parents". I would almost bet they will DNA test the Moms. Can they order all the men at the compound to give a DNA sample if the fathers don't step up?I read an article today that stated that all those who were showing up and claiming to be a parent would have to give a dna sample.

I don't know if this was posted before but at TMZ in the warrant it's clear LE meant business!

TMZ Document - http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html

from the warrant
page 1 and page 4

(10) blood, head hair, pubkic hair, buccal cells, and fingerprints of adult males over the age of seventeen who reside a the suspected place and premises;
(11) blood, head hair, pubic hair, buccal cells, and fingerprints of adult females over the age of seventeen who reside at the suspected place and premises;

As such evidence would be relevant to the investigation to help identify suspects and victims of the offenses of sexual assault of a child and bigamy.

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 03:31 AM
I don't think criminal charges have been filed yet have they? Until they identify parents, they can't really charge them. I think that is the point of the hearing, getting the parents identified then sorting out who is going to be charged and who isn't. Thus no bail no arrest. I think if they don't show up the kids will be considered abandoned, then maybe they will issue an arrest warrant for the child abandonment but it will probably have to be written on unknown parents.

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 03:39 AM
I read an article today that stated that all those who were showing up and claiming to be a parent would have to give a dna sample.

I don't know if this was posted before but at TMZ in the warrant it's clear LE meant business!

TMZ Document - http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html

from the warrant
page 1 and page 4

(10) blood, head hair, pubkic hair, buccal cells, and fingerprints of adult males over the age of seventeen who reside a the suspected place and premises;
(11) blood, head hair, pubic hair, buccal cells, and fingerprints of adult females over the age of seventeen who reside at the suspected place and premises;

As such evidence would be relevant to the investigation to help identify suspects and victims of the offenses of sexual assault of a child and bigamy.

So they have already started collecting DNA from all adult residents?

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:43 AM
This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age.

Not only that but now that the Feds went in there it might be even be harder to toss depending on why they were there. The lawyer retained by the Flds was arguing about the local LE search and when it came out in court that the Feds were there searching he withdrew his complaint. I wonder why?

Did you see this one? Enough to give me hearthburn when I read this!

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1354729/
Polygamist sect gets millions from U.S. government in loan, contracts

American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 03:45 AM
LOL, bad sluether that I am I hadn't read the warrant info. In reading it now, it looks like Fredrick Jessop lied to LE right at the beginning. Allegedly Jessop told LE that there were two hundred and fifty men, women and children living at the compound. HaHa, there were almost twice that many kids removed!

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy2.html (page two)

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:46 AM
So they have already started collecting DNA from all adult residents?If it was in the warrant I would presume so.

Remember in the Scott Peterson case there was a warrant for his dna etc? They served it on him and got the samples. Same principle here. They listed evidence they hoped to obtain and that was part of the list.

Leila
04-13-2008, 03:49 AM
Thank you Leila, I wonder if the parents will have to post bail? If the parents don't show up for this hearing, will an arrest warrant be issued?

I'm not sure, but the subpoena states............

“The Court has authority in this suit to render any order, judgment or decree in the children’s interest that will be binding on you, including the termination of the parent-child relationship, a determination of maternity for each child, a determination of paternity for each child, and appointment of a conservator with authority to consent to each child’s adoption.”

The court has broad authority in this case, as it can terminate parental rights, determine maternity and paternity, and give authority for a child's adoption. I'm not an attorney, but I think the court is going to place all of the children in foster care pending determination of who the parents are through DNA, and pending the state's presentation of their case.

We don't know what evidence LE collected at the YFZ ranch, but it sounds like they've got a lot. I think the state prosecutors will be presenting some of their evidence at the hearing we think is going to take place on May 5th. That may be the time the state will ask for warrants to collect DNA.

I don't think this case is going to turn out the way the 1953 raid on Cross Creek/Colorado City turned out.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:49 AM
LOL, bad sluether that I am I hadn't read the warrant info. In reading it now, it looks like Fredrick Jessop lied to LE right at the beginning. Allegedly Jessop told LE that there were two hundred and fifty men, women and children living at the compound. HaHa, there were almost twice that many kids removed!

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy2.html (page two) Yes! Also on page 2 and 3 there were names redacted where they had actually talked with certain individuals and it's clear they were young girls. I'd also read where one young woman was asked her age and she looked at her husband and he said "you're 18." So she told them she was 18. Another young woman didn't know her own age but her 8 year old stepdaughter told CPS that the young woman was 16 and had a baby of x months (I think it was 8 or 18? months old) etc.. gave chapter and verse. As they say out of the mouths of babes..

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:52 AM
I'm not sure, but the subpoena states............

“The Court has authority in this suit to render any order, judgment or decree in the children’s interest that will be binding on you, including the termination of the parent-child relationship, a determination of maternity for each child, a determination of paternity for each child, and appointment of a conservator with authority to consent to each child’s adoption.”

The court has broad authority in this case, as it can terminate parental rights, determine maternity and paternity, and give authority for a child's adoption. I'm not an attorney, but I think the court is going to place all of the children in foster care pending determination of who the parents are through DNA, and pending the state's presentation of their case.

We don't know what evidence LE collected at the YFZ ranch, but it sounds like they've got a lot. I think the state prosecutors will be presenting some of their evidence at the hearing we think is going to take place on May 5th. That may be the time the state will ask for warrants to collect DNA.

I don't think this case is going to turn out the way the 1953 raid on Cross Creek/Colorado City turned out.
I don't think it will either. Texas isn't saddled with the baggage the other states have been burdened with ie..long association with polygamy and the outcry in these type of cases that try to make it all about their religion or about polgyamy. It's clearcut child abuse, welfare fraud etc. I can't wait to hear what the Feds were looking at and if any charges will be coming from that end.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:58 AM
I know that these groups have exchanged children younger than six years old, bouncing them around the communities and that many of these children don't know their real ages or who their biological parents are. I had an awful thought and I wonder if anyone else has wondered about this.

These pedo's don't hesitate to take these children and abuse them, and primarily these are children from within their various communities. What's to say that some of those children aren't some of the children listed as missing in various states across the U.S.? (Not from within their groups but children from outside their groups who have been snatched away from their homes or playgrounds etc.)

mysteriew
04-13-2008, 04:25 AM
I don't think it will either. Texas isn't saddled with the baggage the other states have been burdened with ie..long association with polygamy and the outcry in these type of cases that try to make it all about their religion or about polgyamy. It's clearcut child abuse, welfare fraud etc. I can't wait to hear what the Feds were looking at and if any charges will be coming from that end.

I think Texas is the best place to start this in. In Texas, they aren't entrenched they are are newcomers, people were already looking at their reputation and were a little uneasy. Because the compound was so secluded and secretive they never integrated with the other citizens. So any complaints by the FLDS about the raid (like they have already started when they complained about their temple being invaded) will be looked at with a little more suspicion and more attention will be paid to the findings.

If it had happened in Utah or AZ, I do think there would have been more of a public outcry of sympathy. But now, with the findings in Texas in the news I do think that could do it successfully now.

Floh
04-13-2008, 05:59 AM
I like this guys photography as well as his comments

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

Thank you for the link. the photographs are marvelous! :)

golfmom
04-13-2008, 08:42 AM
http://www.caller.com/news/2008/apr/13/utah-lessons-applied-in-raid/

Alarmed that the sect's members were building a compound, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff urged Texas lawmakers in 2005 to strengthen its laws. He described the sect in stark terms. I just wish his own state would follow that advice.

Texas lawmakers heeded the advice and made sweeping changes to Texas law against polygamy and underage marriage.

Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, HEROR-Kerrville, the sponsor of the legislation, says his bill gave authorities the legal basis to enter the compound. ....... Before 2005, Texas law allowed girls as young as 14 to marry with the permission of their parents.

Hilderbran's law upgraded the penalties for polygamy from misdemeanor to felony and raised the minimum age that minors with parents' permission can marry from 14 to 16.

Floh
04-13-2008, 08:47 AM
http://www.caller.com/news/2008/apr/13/utah-lessons-applied-in-raid/

Alarmed that the sect's members were building a compound, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff urged Texas lawmakers in 2005 to strengthen its laws. He described the sect in stark terms. I just wish his own state would follow that advice.

Texas lawmakers heeded the advice and made sweeping changes to Texas law against polygamy and underage marriage.

Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, HEROR-Kerrville, the sponsor of the legislation, says his bill gave authorities the legal basis to enter the compound. ....... Before 2005, Texas law allowed girls as young as 14 to marry with the permission of their parents.

Hilderbran's law upgraded the penalties for polygamy from misdemeanor to felony and raised the minimum age that minors with parents' permission can marry from 14 to 16.

Which would have made Jeffs mad because his plan for the compound would have taken the original laws into account when he set the compound up in 2004.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 08:47 AM
More from link above:

In cases where teenage girls have babies, authorities will look closely at how old they were when they conceived and at the father's age. And because polygamous sects do not file marriage certificates of second and third wives, the law also allows prosecutors to charge people with polygamy in situations where there is an appearance of the crime, such as multiple wives living under one roof.

........
Law targeting Eldorado sect

Prohibits marriage of people younger than 16. Requires parental consent of people 16-17.

Prohibits marriage between current and former stepchildren and stepparents.

Provides for felony prosecution of parents who allow children younger than 16 to marry.

Allows for prosecution of people who perform wedding ceremonies for people younger than 16.

Prohibits people from being in a common-law marriage if they are already married.

Makes having sex with first cousins a second-degree felony, while other forms of incest may be considered third-degree felonies.

Voids marriages in which one of the parties is underage, meaning that sexual acts committed during those marriages can be considered felonies.

Trino
04-13-2008, 08:48 AM
I'm beginning to get concerned that the case against FLDS could fall apart. Parents have a responsibility to feed, clothe, and shelter kids. Certainly, this was done. The kids have no black eyes or broken arms - no evidence of physical abuse. As for the "lost boys," yes, I believe they exist, but where are they? Why haven't they come forward?

The remaining legality is sexual abuse, but if the women and girls refuse to name anyone, which it seems like is happening, legally I think there may be a problem. "Spiritual" marriages, without testimony against the perps, just isn't going to stand up in court. Remember, these were the "chosen" from the FLDS community to live at the Texas compound.

After reading more about the 3 women who were absent when the raid took place, I'm beginning to sympathize with them, especially if they were gone only for a few days. Can you imagine the government taking your children and not allowing you access to them? One woman has two children, ages 9 and 12 in custody. If this happened on the "outside," can you imagine the outcry?

golfmom
04-13-2008, 08:48 AM
Which would have made Jeffs mad because his plan for the compound would have taken the original laws into account when he set the compound up in 2004.

I completely agree Floh. I think he chose Texas because of the lax laws, never dreaming that before his vision was built, the law would be changed.

Trino
04-13-2008, 09:17 AM
This is not going to be a mass prosecution. Each man would need to be individually prosecuted. If there's no witness (women/girls) to his crime, he's going to be released. Now that Barlow has been released, this complicates matters.

None of the men have been charged. Strange that LE chose to detain innocents while the men are still free.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4640067&page=1

"That 16-year-old is the linchpin for probable cause. She is the reason they said they had cause to go in and do this search. If that is not present, if they can't establish probable cause, then everything they gathered in the search will likely be suppressed," said legal analyst Jonathan Turley today on "Good Morning America Weekend. He added, "They will not be able to bring criminal charges. They can even be sued for that search."

golfmom
04-13-2008, 09:27 AM
Trino, I'm struggling with your logic. The charges are still being investigated, however, a judge has found that abuse existed. Since the women and children have been unable or unwilling to tell who they are and who they're married to, this process is going to take some time. LE isn't detaining innocents. The court has stated that the children are in protective custody. The women are permitted to stay or go.

As to the men, until they sort out the tangle of paternity ... there's no reason to arrest them.

As to the three women at the compound who are claiming that the state won't let them see their children. Where were they? I think they heard about the raid, jumped in their car and drove from Colorado City. It's possible too, that they were in the compound and ELECTED not to go with the children and have now changed their minds. Also, they could be "assigned" to keep enforce the children's and women's staying silent dictates of the cult.

Trino
04-13-2008, 09:44 AM
Trino, I'm struggling with your logic. The charges are still being investigated, however, a judge has found that abuse existed. Since the women and children have been unable or unwilling to tell who they are and who they're married to, this process is going to take some time. LE isn't detaining innocents. The court has stated that the children are in protective custody. The women are permitted to stay or go.

As to the men, until they sort out the tangle of paternity ... there's no reason to arrest them.

As to the three women at the compound who are claiming that the state won't let them see their children. Where were they? I think they heard about the raid, jumped in their car and drove from Colorado City. It's possible too, that they were in the compound and ELECTED not to go with the children and have now changed their minds. Also, they could be "assigned" to keep enforce the children's and women's staying silent dictates of the cult.

First, let me say that I think the FLDS men in Eldorado are guilty as sin, but proving it is another animal. The judge found abuse, based on what LE stated. Now, the FLDS lawyers will step in for a second round with the judge.

These women/children were selected to go to Texas because they were strong supporters of FLDS. Will they testify after years of brainwashing? Where are the "lost boys" who were ousted? Why are they silent? Was there "probable cause" for the raid, since the girl cannot be found, and Barlow was released because he hasn't been to Texas and has reported to his PO as dictated?

What are "spiritual marriages?" How is this going to play out legally? Nuns, for example, are considered "spiritually" married; many even wear a wedding ring.

It has been established that the 3 women in question were not in the compound. What if this happened to you, i.e. the government stating you could not see your children who are in protective custody? I would be frantic.

Glow
04-13-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm beginning to get concerned that the case against FLDS could fall apart. Parents have a responsibility to feed, clothe, and shelter kids. Certainly, this was done. The kids have no black eyes or broken arms - no evidence of physical abuse. As for the "lost boys," yes, I believe they exist, but where are they? Why haven't they come forward?

The remaining legality is sexual abuse, but if the women and girls refuse to name anyone, which it seems like is happening, legally I think there may be a problem. "Spiritual" marriages, without testimony against the perps, just isn't going to stand up in court. Remember, these were the "chosen" from the FLDS community to live at the Texas compound.

After reading more about the 3 women who were absent when the raid took place, I'm beginning to sympathize with them, especially if they were gone only for a few days. Can you imagine the government taking your children and not allowing you access to them? One woman has two children, ages 9 and 12 in custody. If this happened on the "outside," can you imagine the outcry?


Hi Trino,

There may be no "lost boys" at the Texas compound since here we have the the "cream of the crop" of Jeff's followers. The young men here in Texas may be the elite ones who are being trained to take over as the next generation. I would think the ones that would comprise the role of "lost boys" would be the ones that live where there is already a large male population as well as teenage boys who are percieved as difficult or rebellious.

I am concerned also as to why it is "ok" to hold the children of those 3 mothers without allowing even so much as a phone call. You are right that if this were to happen in mainstream America, there would be a huge outcry. And by the way? There is an outcry. You just have to go outside the heavily edited mainstream media to find it.

check this out:

"Instead of focusing on allegations against individuals, the Eldorado raid has used sparsely supported allegations of child abuse to launch a large-scale clash of cultures and religious beliefs, which will now be played out in the criminal justice arena - exactly what the authors of the First Amendment to the US Constitution hoped to avoid."

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/

golfmom
04-13-2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_8831231

She said many of the young women taken from the ranch have cell phones and have been able to contact family members who remain there. They also were able to bring out some belongings.
"They are not out of communication with their families," she said, adding that Texas child protection workers were trying to be as culturally respectful as possible.

adnoid
04-13-2008, 09:50 AM
...Law targeting Eldorado sect <snipped>...

Looks like they did their homework. Good job.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 09:56 AM
MollyMalone, thank you for the TMZ link.

Thank you everyone for the links this morning. Now I have some reading and catching up to do!

Glow
04-13-2008, 09:57 AM
Strange that LE chose to detain innocents while the men are still free.



The argument here is that a 17 year old boy or girl who is being "held" right now is a "child" ie; a minor and therefore the state is doing what what the state deems as "protective". As for the women who are along with the children, they (authorities) keep stating over and over (or at least it keeps getting quoted over and over) that they are free to go. Notice they are not free to come and go - just free to go.

If we take this out of the context it is in and remove the "detainer" from the role as the perceived good guy, it would look entirely different. I am sure that if a mother was in a Walmart and a guy grabbed her child and was "holding" the child...Im sure the store would clear out quickly but if the "holder" told the childs mom you can stay if you want while I engage in a stand off over this child....the mom would stay....no doubt about it.

And the general public as well as the media that would be watching this event unfold would call the mom a hostage no matter how much the kidnapper assured them she was "free" to go. In that situation we would all recognize that the mom was a hostage of the heart. If she DID leave we would be shocked and disappointed in her.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 09:59 AM
First, let me say that I think the FLDS men in Eldorado are guilty as sin, but proving it is another animal. The judge found abuse, based on what LE stated. Now, the FLDS lawyers will step in for a second round with the judge.

This is Texas Law:

Prohibits marriage of people younger than 16. Requires parental consent of people 16-17.

Prohibits marriage between current and former stepchildren and stepparents.

Provides for felony prosecution of parents who allow children younger than 16 to marry.

Allows for prosecution of people who perform wedding ceremonies for people younger than 16.

Prohibits people from being in a common-law marriage if they are already married.

Makes having sex with first cousins a second-degree felony, while other forms of incest may be considered third-degree felonies.

Voids marriages in which one of the parties is underage, meaning that sexual acts committed during those marriages can be considered felonies.

These women/children were selected to go to Texas because they were strong supporters of FLDS. Will they testify after years of brainwashing? Where are the "lost boys" who were ousted? Why are they silent? It hasn't been established that there are ANY Lost Boys from Eldorado at this time. The Lost Boys have been documented from other locations.

Was there "probable cause" for the raid, since the girl cannot be found, and Barlow was released because he hasn't been to Texas and has reported to his PO as dictated?
As of right now, the judge has stated that not only did probable cause exist, but handed out additional search warrants. The FBI also believed that enough probable cause existed to execute their own warrant. Even if the initial call is determined to be a hoax, the abuse they found and evidence collected while executing the warrant stands.

What are "spiritual marriages?" How is this going to play out legally? Nuns, for example, are considered "spiritually" married; many even wear a wedding ring.

Nuns don't have babies at 16 years old. Their spiritual marriage is to Jesus. Not some pedophile operating under the guise of religion.

It has been established that the 3 women in question were not in the compound. What if this happened to you, i.e. the government stating you could not see your children who are in protective custody? I would be frantic.
I didn't realize anything was established regarding the 3 women other than what they claim. Do you have a link?

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Before I forget, a quick post about Trent the photog. Did anyone catch when he mentions having one leg outside the door of the helicopter to get some of the pics? :eek:

Pepper
04-13-2008, 10:24 AM
The argument here is that a 17 year old boy or girl who is being "held" right now is a "child" ie; a minor and therefore the state is doing what what the state deems as "protective". As for the women who are along with the children, they (authorities) keep stating over and over (or at least it keeps getting quoted over and over) that they are free to go. Notice they are not free to come and go - just free to go.

If we take this out of the context it is in and remove the "detainer" from the role as the perceived good guy, it would look entirely different. I am sure that if a mother was in a Walmart and a guy grabbed her child and was "holding" the child...Im sure the store would clear out quickly but if the "holder" told the childs mom you can stay if you want while I engage in a stand off over this child....the mom would stay....no doubt about it.

And the general public as well as the media that would be watching this event unfold would call the mom a hostage no matter how much the kidnapper assured them she was "free" to go. In that situation we would all recognize that the mom was a hostage of the heart. If she DID leave we would be shocked and disappointed in her.

You know Glow, there will always be times in which the rights of one person will conflict with the rights of another. I could cite countless examples. But when that happens I'm in favor of the rights of the weaker party. In this case the weaker party is the abused children. The government needs to do whatever it can to protect the children, and if the rights of the adults get stepped on in the process, I don't give a damn.

Trino
04-13-2008, 10:29 AM
It has been established that the 3 women in question were not in the compound. What if this happened to you, i.e. the government stating you could not see your children who are in protective custody? I would be frantic. I didn't realize anything was established regarding the 3 women other than what they claim. Do you have a link?

Isn't this story enough? The title is Mothers Plead to See Children

Here's the link:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695269395,00.html

Trino
04-13-2008, 10:36 AM
All is not exactly good among the mothers and children. AND, no they, according to the Deseret News, have not all been allowed contact.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

"... 25 young girls have mothers who are staying in another shelter, yet Child Protective Services workers have refused to even let them pass notes to each other."

"One small girl, whose mother was not at the ranch during the raid and has not been allowed to join her children in the shelter, cries out for her mother daily."

"Kathleen believes some of the child welfare workers have used frightening tactics when interviewing the children. She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."

golfmom
04-13-2008, 10:48 AM
Isn't this story enough? The title is Mothers Plead to See Children

Here's the link:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695269395,00.html

No, I'm sorry for me this one story is not enough. One woman didn't give her last name and the other two are Johnson and Barlow. :rolleyes:

Just do a bit of research into those surnames and their involvement in the "church".

Truly
04-13-2008, 10:48 AM
Isn't this story enough? The title is Mothers Plead to See Children

Here's the link:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695269395,00.html

No, all that story claims is that a woman with no last name spoke to a reporter over the phone.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 10:51 AM
No, all that story claims is that a woman with no last name spoke to a reporter over the phone.

And exactly why are they only contacting that one particular out of state newspaper?

Trino
04-13-2008, 10:52 AM
No, all that story claims is that a woman with no last name spoke to a reporter over the phone.

How about the story from the Deseret News that claims a reporters overheard this (see above):

She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."

And, what about the story (again the Deseret News) that says a child cries for her mother WHO WAS NOT AT THE RANCH DURING THE RAID? This appears to be supported by the Deseret News reporters who have been there.

Note: many posters are thanking the Deseret News for the info. I think the Deseret News can be supported as accurrate.