Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #2

[LinasK]

I've been trying to bite my tongue as I read so many of the comments that are basically saying it's all the fault of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that there are children being sexually abused by members of the FLDS sect.

The tragedy of the situation is that children are being abused and regardless of the religion, the abuse needs to be stopped. Texas law enforcement is on the road to doing something about today's situation and hopefully they will be on top of tomorrow's situation and next month's situation. As long as there are human beings on this earth, there are going to be abused children. We can argue all day about who is to blame but it really comes down to the abuser is responsible. It doesn't matter if the abuser is FLDS, a Catholic priest, a Mormon bishop, a father/brother/uncle, agnotic or athiest. It takes a certain evil spirit to commit crimes against children and it certainly isn't limited to one group of people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no more legal authority to "correct" or "prevent" the teachings of the FLDS sects than the non-Mormon residents of Utah.

Keeping silent about something you know is wrong is the same as condoning it,
Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.

[gamegirl]

So EVERY church needs to be doing something about it, not just the Mormons.

[WhitneyLea]

Noone has said it's all the fault of the Mormon church, sex abuse isn't even confined to the Mormon church- see my post about Catholic priests, it's not even confined to religion- I was molested myself by a relative. But when the problem is this pervasive and widespread- 400 children in one compound alone- the churches do have a duty to do something about it.

True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.

[SuziQ]

If any church, especially a big mainstream one, got involved with chastising another churches practice, it could backfire bigtime. And I would bet there would be a public outcry that the "big bully church" is picking on the small church and trying to tell them what to do. I think in this instance the LDS church can accomplish more by doing what they've always done. By helping anyone, including polygamists, that asks for their help. Rather than grandstanding and making non binding public statements regarding the situation, and starting a war of words that won't help anyone.

[Leila]

True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.

Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.

[biggirl]

Arizona, Utah, South Dakota, and any other states that have FLDS communities have to take a cue from Texas and step in. If they all work together, maybe they can bring a halt to the crimes being perpetrated.

When the mothers of children who had been killed by drunk drivers came together from all states to form Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, that's when we saw laws being changed and laws being made stronger, to combat the issue of drunk driving.

This is the same concept. All states who have FLDS communities must work together.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[trixie]

I guess a 16 year old girl with a cell phone is more powerful than one of the largest wealthiest churches on the planet because she brought it alllll down in Texas. (And Thank GOD for Texas authorities who did the right thing. Texans should be proud!) That being said, to the poster who misunderstood what I said a couple of pages back, I don't hold the Mormon church responsible for what was happening in thet compound. I hold them responsible for being as big and mighty and powerful as they are WITH people in high places who could help and affect change, and yet did nothing. And you cannot tell me they didn't know what was going on. The Warren Jeffs trial was when, last year? EVERYBODY knew what was going on there after that. No, it's not the Mormon churches fault, IMO, it's their fault they didn't see a need and see people in trouble, some of which are related to LDS members, and CHOSE to NOT STEP UP. There are many churches out there who do charitable works for anybody in need, not just their own members. Maybe the Mormons should take a cue from them. FLDS is not LDS. Does that mean the LDS doesn't have the moral obligation to help those children?

[Pepper]

If you look up the word bigamy in the encyclopedia, it's part of polygamy, with both meaning plural marriages. The difference seems to be in the legal aspects. If one were to obtain a marriage license and wed one person, and then while still married to that person, obtain another marriage license and wed another person, the person who is legally married to two people at the same time is a bigamist and can be prosecuted and sent to jail/prison.

Polygamy seems to be multiple marriages through a church, without a legal marriage license to marry. Certainly those girls in Texas who are younger than the legal age to marry - 16, cannot be considered married.

Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

[sherri79]

i understand the need to blame. we have children that are hurt. hell i want someone to hate and be angry at. of course i hate the men that rape the children but they are a lost cause. i want to blame someone that can change things.

i want to blame the police in Texas. they knew children lived there and they knew this cult hurt children. they say they had to wait for a legal reason to act. screw the law kids are hurt. i understand we need laws so we do not live in fear of police knocking on my door tomorrow and taking my kids just because they feel like it. there is a disconnect between my heart and head. my head knows that police should follow the law or they are no more than a street gang. my heart screams that children suffered every day that the police waited for proof to act.

i want to blame the LDS. the 2 groups are related. they both started as the same group. my head knows that before Mormons became Mormons they can be traced back to other offshoots of the christian faith. my head knows Jews practiced polygamy at one time. my heart does not care. i want to blame them because they share a past and i have hope they can change the future.

i want to blame anyone that practices polygamy or defends it. i know there is a difference between what adults do and child brides. i still want to blame them.

this case is hard for me. i have spent years suffering abuse. what is logical and what i feel do not always match up.

should the LDS step up and combat the abuse of children? hell yes! so should every religious group. while we are at it so should those that believe in nothing at all or something not covered by the other groups. before we blame the LDS for not stopping child abuse in a community they had ties to a hundred years ago remember we can not stop abuse going on in our own neighborhoods. pull up your local map and see how many men that have raped children are living in your town under the title RSO. people in general fail our children more often than any predator in the darkest jungle.

[thefragile7393]

True - but the Mormon church had no more ability to "do" anything about this situation than the Methodist, Baptist, or Catholic churches would have ... they have not had any ties to the FLDS for at least a couple hundred years, and I can guarantee that nothing the Mormon church says will affect what the FLDS practices. The only church that could have done something to prevent and STOP this abuse is the FLDS. And they obviously have not, which is why Texas had to step in.
For Trixie and others:
Do you know anything about how the FLDS operates? More than likely any LDS members with FLDS family couldn't have had any CONTACT with them, these people were so shut off from the outside world and not allowed to contact anyone not in their own FLDS family. The FLDS shut themselves off from everyone! They (as a group) didn't WANT outsiders help, and Warren Jeffs and his cronies ruled with an iron fist. Outsiders in CO City, for example, are followed and questioned by the local PD (FLDS members of course) and then escorted out of town. Little hard to help people when you have these creeps preventing that! "Underneath the Banner of Heaven" might be a good place to start to learn more.

[Trino]

Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."

[barb0301]

Technically:

Bigamy = Bi = two
Polygamy = Poly = many (or more than two)

You can't be prosecuted for either bigamy (two spouses) or polygamy (more than two spouses) unless you obtained marriage licenses and were legally married to more than one at the same time without previously dissolving your prior marriage(s). Since most of these polygamy cases are "spiritual" and not "legal" there is no grounds for legal prosecution, and to do such would be a monumental waste of time and money.

TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.

[golfmom]

Oh Barb, I missed your previous post. Texas law has some real teeth then to be able to go after this group based on it's recognition of common law marriage.

[Pepper]

TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages, meaning you do not have to obtain marriage licenses. I posted the whole statute in post #73 of this thread, but here is a small excerpt:

(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.

Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.

[golfmom]

But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3059496

(snip)

A judge has ordered all the children stay in the San Angelo area until after a hearing next week.
Child services workers say the children may be put in foster homes after that hearing, but the cultural adjustment would require intense counseling. Some former members of the FLDS Church say girls are told leaving the compound could consign them to eternal damnation, and they are sheltered to the point they don't trust their own judgment.

[Pepper]

But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...

I don't like it either, but if it is going to be money wasted, then let them spend it on something they are likely to win - like child rape or physical abuse.

[Truly]

And, of course, these "marriages" were w/o valid state licenses. The men, then, won't be prosecuted for anything except underage relationships and/or child abuse. Wonder how long this will put them away.

Let me just ask...
If you were an adult female with FLDS, had lived a life under the circumstances these women lived, and had a child or several children, how would you ever achieve a normal life in the mainstream world? Most likely, these women have no education, no job skills. What will they do? God forbid that they return to this cult or to their "husbands."

Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

[golfmom]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't view it as a waste of money, enforcing the law. And, I have a big problem with Utah and Arizona's lax treatment of the polygamists.

[barb0301]

Yes, but I would wager money that if they tried to prosecute for polygamy under these guidelines, it would be tossed out of court in a heartbeat. Consenting adults can do what they want in their living arrangements. It would be like banning oral sex between husband and wife. Unconstitutional!! Texas should not waste resources going after anyone on these grounds. There's plenty of "meat" without resorting to iffy cases.

TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.


http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...awkins_arrest/ (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/feb/14/no-headline---hawkins_arrest/)

http://www.reporternews.com/news/200...-trial-bigamy/ (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/Feb/15/yisrayl-hawkins-will-go-trial-bigamy/)

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners?

[Trino]

Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

Most of these women have less than a sixth grade education. That's a lot of time to make up. Child support? The dads are going to be in jail for a long time.

[Truly]

But Pepper, that's exactly the loophole that the polygamist keep sliding through in Utah and Arizona. Texas recognizes these "spiritual marriages" and therefore can prosecute for polygamy in addition to the child abuse.

And, personally, I think that they should. This isn't freedom of religion ...



You are absolutely right, it is not freedom of religion. I am going to guess that all of the adult women were raped when they were children. I don't know what the statute of limitations is in Texas on child rape, but there should be no need to even address polygamy between adults.

[golfmom]

Long article, but I thought this tidbit was interesting:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269647,00.html

As for the 16-year-old girl who called a hotline to report she was being sexually and physically abused at the ranch, child welfare officials still have not identified her. "It's been an unbelievable task figuring out the identities of these victims," Meisner said.

"Their names change frequently and many have the same name."

[golfmom]

From my understanding the group was educating children through at a minimum of 8th grade, up until Warren Jeffs took over the group. Then he dictated that all children be removed from school.

[Pepper]

TX is already prosecuting another "religious" figure for bigamy. I posted a link in an earlier post on here. Whether or not they end up finally prosecuting, it is a way to find probably cause for warrants now, make arrests and bring charges. Then those that are arrested will have to post bond and go by the rules of the bond, which usually require not leaving the state.

And no, it's not unconstitutional. Where in the Constitution does it guarantee you the right to have multiple marriage partners? The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

[Truly]

Most of these women have less than a sixth grade education. That's a lot of time to make up. Child support? The dads are going to be in jail for a long time.

I know, Trino, and I also understand that these women face difficult choices, and we all have an enormous amount of compassion for what they are facing. But you must remember that there are thousands of other women in this country who have also had limited education, and whether the dad is in jail or just out of the picture, they are raising their kids on their own. It might not be ideal, but people do manage.

[golfmom]

The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

But, that's the point Pepper, Texas does recognize "spiritual marriages" or common law marriage AS THE SAME AS a legal marriage. No difference ... so they can prosecute. Polygamy is against the law. Having more than one wife, whether she is a "legally" married wife or a "spiritual" wife .... means that there is more than ONE wife.

[barb0301]

The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

According to TX law, these are legal marriages. They were living together as man and wife, holding themselves out to be married, and therefore, recognized as being "married" under TX law. It is a prosecutable crime. I personally know people that have had to go through a divorce after having lived under common law marriages.

If they had simply been co-habitating, as sexual partners, it would have been "just" *cough* child abuse. Now, it's not only child abuse, but also bigamy with a partner under aged sixteen, which is a higher class felony under TX law than simple bigamy.

[adnoid]

But, that's the point Pepper, Texas does recognize "spiritual marriages" or common law marriage AS THE SAME AS a legal marriage...

Interestingly - so does Utah.

My source. (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm)
Another source. (http://www.unmarried.org/common.html)
Yet another. (http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/709FAEE4-ABEA-4E17-BA34836388313A3C/catId/3C3AF4CE-DB9E-48C4-8DFCFE2E47C91747/118/304/145/FAQ/)

ETA: Upon further reading, Utah really doesn't. You've got to read it to understand, but it wouldn't help here. Sorry.

[SuziQ]

From my understanding the group was educating children through at a minimum of 8th grade, up until Warren Jeffs took over the group. Then he dictated that all children be removed from school.

Not to insinuate that Warren's dad was a saint. But the level of control and abuse ramped up big time when Warren took over. IMO, he is one sick puppy and got his kicks from being as cruel and mean as he could. It appears that at the Texas compound, Under Warren's direction, it became even more evil and sinister.

[golfmom]

Interestingly - so does Utah.

My source. (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm)
Another source. (http://www.unmarried.org/common.html)
Yet another. (http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/709FAEE4-ABEA-4E17-BA34836388313A3C/catId/3C3AF4CE-DB9E-48C4-8DFCFE2E47C91747/118/304/145/FAQ/)

My understanding was Utah recognizes common law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.

[golfmom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States#Utah

Utah

it arises out of a contract between a man and a woman
For a common-law marriage to be legal and valid, "a court or administrative order must establish that " who: (1) "are of legal age and capable of giving consent"; (2) "are legally capable of entering a solemnized marriage under the provisions of Title 30, Chap. 1 of the Utah Code; (3) "have cohabited"; (4) "mutually assume marital rights, duties, and obligations"; and (5) "who hold themselves out as and have acquired a uniform and general reputation as husband and wife" (See Utah Code Ann. 30-1-4.5 (2004)).

[Truly]

The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

I see what you are saying, and I agree. There should be no laws pertaining to consenting adults. But I am willing to bet that every single adult woman in this cult was raped and impregnated when she was a child. If Texas focuses on the child rape charges, I think they will be able to prosecute every man in the compound who has raped a child... on numerous counts. Then there is no need to risk having them slip out of the polygamy loophole.

[golfmom]

Not to insinuate that Warren's dad was a saint. But the level of control and abuse ramped up big time when Warren took over. IMO, he is one sick puppy and got his kicks from being as cruel and mean as he could. It appears that at the Texas compound, Under Warren's direction, it became even more evil and sinister.

Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

[barb0301]

My understanding was Utah recognizes common law marriages only if they have been validated by a court or administrative order.

But Utah did prosecute and convict Rodney Holm of felony bigamy. He was a former police officer in Hildale. I don't think his conviction was ever overturned, was it? This article shows the UT Supreme Court upholding the 2003 conviction.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195763,00.html

[golfmom]

But Utah did prosecute and convict Rodney Holm of felony bigamy. He was a former police officer in Hildale. I don't think his conviction was ever overturned, was it? This article shows the UT Supreme Court upholding the 2003 conviction.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195763,00.html

Yes, Barb, but I believe I read that the state said the only reason they went after him was because one of his wives was just 16. Otherwise, they would have left him alone. :(

[golfmom]

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_18_Germain_ADifficult.htm

"No one can prosecute polygamy because it is not a felony or a misdemeanor. It is something that is prohibited by Arizona's Constitution, but it is not a crime, so prosecutors do not have any jurisdiction and cannot do anything about the issue of polygamy," Smith said. "That would have to be a legislative change."
........
Regarding Utah:
We have had a very hard time prosecuting the most serious crimes within polygamous communities, and I am sure that victims will be even less willing to testify against a practice they believe comes from God," Shurtleff said.

Since Shurtleff took office, he decided to take two tracks. One is the justice track, which focuses investigations and prosecutions on child abuse, incest, domestic violence and fraud - particularly fraud against taxpayers. The second track is the safety net track, which brings government agencies, nonprofit groups and others together to ensure polygamists have access to information, safety and justice.

[Truly]

Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

This guy is a piece of work...but he is also in prison. :woohoo: One down, 59 to go in Eldorado! Go Texas!

Colorado and Arizona will hopefully learn from Texas. Utah, I am afraid, may remain stymied by the powerful political influence of the LDS. Not that they're responsible for their brethren, but that there is a whole lot of money and power tied up which the men of the LDS will continue to protect. Kids cannot vote. Kids are not major contributors to political campaigns. Therefore kids are probably off the radar for men like Orrin Hatch.

[Fairy1]

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_18_Germain_ADifficult.htm

"No one can prosecute polygamy because it is not a felony or a misdemeanor. It is something that is prohibited by Arizona's Constitution, but it is not a crime, so prosecutors do not have any jurisdiction and cannot do anything about the issue of polygamy," Smith said. "That would have to be a legislative change."
........
Regarding Utah:
We have had a very hard time prosecuting the most serious crimes within polygamous communities, and I am sure that victims will be even less willing to testify against a practice they believe comes from God," Shurtleff said.

Since Shurtleff took office, he decided to take two tracks. One is the justice track, which focuses investigations and prosecutions on child abuse, incest, domestic violence and fraud - particularly fraud against taxpayers. The second track is the safety net track, which brings government agencies, nonprofit groups and others together to ensure polygamists have access to information, safety and justice.

They are going to have to focus on the crimes you have in bold type. Polygamy would only be prosecutable if they were "legal" marriages, which these are not. They are "spritual" only. What they're doing in Eldorado is an enormous undertaking - not even including Utah and Arizona and wherever else. But, they must proceed and it must be fruitful. Otherwise, what is stopping any weirdo from starting a "cult" that hides behind religion? The FLDS are not above the laws of the USA and this must be a precedent. What is happening now is going to determine the course going forward.

[mysteriew]

The operative word is marriage. They aren't married in the legal sense. If you wanted to live in a commune with 5 or 6 different sexual partners, no law would prevent you from doing so. I'm just saying that the appellate courts will toss any attempt to prosecute on these grounds. There are simply no enforceable laws pertaining to sexual acts between consenting adults, no matter how many individually or at the same time.

Each state has their own definition of marriage and there isn't a federal definition of marriage. Texas has defined marriage both as those who get a license and formal ceremony, and as those who live together as man and wife and present themselves as man and wife.

I have an old boyfriend who lives in Texas. He and his girlfriend lived together in Texas for a number of years. When they split, she went to court and filed for divorce and among other things was asking for division of marital property. They had never married and had no children together. And the court did go through the divorce process. So yes, having a marriage license with one woman and living with one or more other woman, and calling them "wives" makes them married in the state of Texas.

Ohio used to have a common law marriage but struck it down in the '80's or '90's. A lot of states used to have common law statutes on the books, but didn't always enforce them. Ohio and some others recinded their laws because under the old laws, the was some question as to whether two gays who lived together and called themselves man and wife could actually be legally married. That all went down prior to the more recent (early 2000?) contraversy about whether 2 gays could legally marry.

[Fairy1]

Each state has their own definition of marriage and there isn't a federal definition of marriage. Texas has defined marriage both as those who get a license and formal ceremony, and as those who live together as man and wife and present themselves as man and wife.

I have an old boyfriend who lives in Texas. He and his girlfriend lived together in Texas for a number of years. When they split, she went to court and filed for divorce and among other things was asking for division of marital property. They had never married and had no children together. And the court did go through the divorce process. So yes, having a marriage license with one woman and living with one or more other woman, and calling them "wives" makes them married in the state of Texas.

Ohio used to have a common law marriage but struck it down in the '80's or '90's. A lot of states used to have common law statutes on the books, but didn't always enforce them. Ohio and some others recinded their laws because under the old laws, the was some question as to whether two gays who lived together and called themselves man and wife could actually be legally married. That all went down prior to the more recent (early 2000?) contraversy about whether 2 gays could legally marry.

Isn't there a specific number of years where a common law marriage is considered "legal?" I suppose every state differs, but 7 years or more is what I recall.

[mysteriew]

I was talking with my DD about this situation today and she brought up two very good questions that I hadn't thought about.

We know that under this religon?/cult women have no standing of their own, may not make decisions for their household or their community. Their sole value appears to be breeding and raising the children.

So what happens in these situations? A husband dies and the wife is past the age of bearing more children?

A girl/woman is unable to conceive?

[mysteriew]

Isn't there a specific number of years where a common law marriage is considered "legal?" I suppose every state differs, but 7 years or more is what I recall.

I don't think Ohio's law had a number of years required. And from what was posted here about Texas law I don't remember seeing a certain number of years. The common law statutes differed between states though, so in some states there may have been a number of years as a requirement.

[Fairy1]

Here's what I found on common law marriage:

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/commonlaw.htm

[Glow]

Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

[Fairy1]

I know, Trino, and I also understand that these women face difficult choices, and we all have an enormous amount of compassion for what they are facing. But you must remember that there are thousands of other women in this country who have also had limited education, and whether the dad is in jail or just out of the picture, they are raising their kids on their own. It might not be ideal, but people do manage.

This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

[Fairy1]

Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Oh well. Where were they when this all went down? It's not like these women are free to roam about. I read about these women yesterday and something does not ring true about their story. With all these children and women with one of three names and supposedly no birth records, it's got to be impossible for LE to validate thier claims. They could be crazy abductors for all anyone knows. Do they have some form of ID? Probably not. I don't put too much stock in what they say.

[Glow]

Hi Fairy,

You may be right.... I was just looking for the link. I heard the story in passing today but wasnt in a place where I could really pay attention. I was hoping to find the link so I could look at it a bit harder.

Thanks for replying ( I love your name)

glow

[mysteriew]

This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

I understand what you are saying, and to some extent even agree with you. Ok, then you are going to be faced with situations like this: Woman was abused by her father from a young age. As an adult she hooks up with another man and has a daughter by him. But when they break up she moves back in with Dad/Grandad. Dad/Grandad begins abusing the grandchild and Mom is aware and does nothing. Mom grew up with the abuse, Mom had poor attendance in school and failed repeatedly, finally quitting when she was 16. She is on welfare. Authorities become aware of the abuse of the granddaughter and arrest grandpa.... should Mom be charged also?

or this situation:

Mom grew up with physical abuse of herself and her siblings. Poor school record, quits at 16. Welfare. She marries and has children. Hubby physically abuses the children, severely. Mom is aware. When it comes to the attention of authorities, dad is arrested. Should Mom be?

In both cases, her parent(s) did it to her. She grew up and survived with it as a normal occurance. She was always told to deny it, hide it, nobody's business- she would get into trouble. No one ever asked about her bruises. She knows of it happening in other households.

Basically the same situations and situations we have seen on this board. The only thing different is the religous aspect.

If they treat these Mother's differently in Texas, what affect will that have on every other case where they try to prosecute the mother for knowing of abuse and not attempting to stop it? Every defense attorney will most likely bring this up.

[Truly]

This would be a valid point - except most of these women cannot make a "choice" because they know no other way of life. These people are so isolated, they really have no knowledge of the outside world. It's impossible to make a choice when you don't have the facts - and these women and children do not.

Yes, but at this point in time, give them a choice.

Here's how:

*Seperate the mothers into two groups; those under 18, and those over 18.

*Place all of the small children in the center of the room.

*Starting with the youngest mother, ask her to identify her children.

*Give each underage mom the choice to be placed in foster care either alone or with her kids.
(Some girls may not want to be raising their rapists babies when they are only 13-14. Give them the choice.)

*When all of the moms under 18 have gathered their own children, place each family together in foster care.
Each underage mom gets to be placed with her kids, if she chooses.

*Then allow the mothers over 18 to collect their kids, again the youngest mom goes first.

*Help them set up households of their own.

They had no choices before. Now they do. Women figure out how to take care of their kids every day. These moms can, too. :)

[mysteriew]

Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Glow, this was mentioned I think yesterday but I haven't found a link. To be honest, I wondered if this wasn't either mother's of some of the teenage "married"/pregnant girls. Or there have been reports that some parents had sent their young children to live in the Texas compound while they resided in another state.

They probably won't get to see their kids until
A. their kids are identified, and you have to remember that some kids have the same names, some are giving the same names and/or some are not being truthful about their names and ages.
B. the mother's and the circumstances of their being absent are investigated.

[barb0301]

Hi all,

Did any of you hear about the 3 moms that were out of town when the compound was raided? They were interviewed today, apparently they have asked for access to their children and it has been denied by the authorities.

I cant find a link to their story...

Here you go:

These three mothers say they "happened to be gone" the day of the raid. I wonder if they're out-of-state moms who's kids were reassigned to Eldorado.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

Three mothers of 10 children taken from the Yearn For Zion Ranch by Texas authorities told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday that child welfare authorities will not allow them to see or talk to their children.

"I am their biological mother. They will not let me in to see my children," said Monica, a 34-year-old woman with five children ranging in age from 3 to 12 years old. "They have my children and I don't know why. I have asked to see them and have been told no. I am not going to sit here and let them have my children. I don't know what, but I am going to do something. I am going to see my children."

[Leila]

Several people have brought up the difficulty that the women face. But think about it. There are thousands of women in the US who have had children when they were young. Many didn't finish high school and also have few job skills. Many of them had their kids with some loser guy who is now out of the picture. What do they do? They deal with it. The FLDS women actually have some advantages over the average young single mom, in that they know how to sew, how to prepare nourishing meals from bulk foods, and the kids are not used to 'needing' the latest x-box gadget. Someone posted earlier that Child Protective services in Ca, for instance, handles the removal of 400 kids from abusive homes per day. There are programs in place to assist these moms. Child Support from the deadbeat dad is one example. I think they are going to make it. :)

There's also support in every state for women who leave abusive husbands. The battered womens shelters help with a place to stay on an immediate basis and helping the women through the process of obtaining protection orders and getting a job. These organizations can help too.

[Leila]

Hi Fairy,

You may be right.... I was just looking for the link. I heard the story in passing today but wasnt in a place where I could really pay attention. I was hoping to find the link so I could look at it a bit harder.

Thanks for replying ( I love your name)

glow

There's a link to the article earlier in this thread. It was in the Salt Lake Tribune yesterday, and discussed here last night. Look on pages, 6, 7, and 8. I remember replying to the article.

Interestingly the surnames of the three women were Barlow, Johnson (FLDS leader before Rulon Jeffs - Warren Jeffs father was a Johnson), and the third wife didn't give her surname. They didn't explain where they were. at the time of the raid.

[Leila]

Well, reading over some of the group's history in just the last few years is shocking. Mass excommunications, requiring the memorial to be ground up and scattered in the desert, children removed from school, the list just goes on and on ... this guy is a piece of work.

When you look at Warren Jeffs history, he's a very depraved man. :eek:

[SeriouslySearching]

Speaking of the mothers, if a mother living for instance in BFE allowed her husband to rape a 13 year old girl repeatedly and LE found out...she could say that he brainwashed her, beat her, did horrible things to her, but LE would still charge her and the law would back them up. She would go to jail for allowing him to knowingly rape the child and lose her other children. She would be deemed unfit. She would also be charged for neglect and a host of other things. Religion or whatever she wanted to use as a defense would not change the fact she allowed it to happen openly.

My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?

[Leila]

Did anyone else watch CNN 360 tonight? They covered this story with some updated news.

Evidently a girl in Colorado City, Utah called authorities saying she's being abused by her father in her own home.

One of CNN's reporters on scene said that there is progress being made with those that were removed from the compound. The children are doing well and enjoying playing with toys they've never seen before. Some of the younger women in the group are seeking out the counselors. He said that the older women in the group appear to be "enforcers" (the term the reporter used). He felt that their purpose is to remind the younger women of their rules and to keep them in line.

IMO, if the reporter's assessment is correct, then after the hearing on the 17th, the group must be broken up and the younger women removed to someplace where they won't have the influence of the older women. It will be far easier if the groups are kept small - perhaps 5 or 6 mothers and their children taken in by each county.

[froggierintexas]

I am wondering what they are going to do to prevent the adult women from taking their children (when they gain custody of them again) and going back to another FLDS community? After all, not every adult woman that left their wants to 'start over'. Some are just minding their p's and q's until they figure out what to do to get back to FLDS life.

If they do not charge the mothers, then how can they keep them from taking their children and going where they darn well please once things die down. I mean, if I really believed in something and they set me and my kids (hypothetical ones) up in an apt and got us money and help, the minute they turned their back, I would be back to my beliefs. Us wanting them to change is all well and good, but that does not mean they will. And next time they go to a FLDS community with their kids, they will be better prepared and protected from the law and outsiders making the level of abuse likely to be higher..

I am just concerned that once these guys are in jail for the abuse and life appears to be normal for the kids and the mothers, where will they disappear to? And how much harder will it be to get to them the next time?

I guess LE has considered this. At least I hope so.

[golfmom]

Did anyone else watch CNN 360 tonight? They covered this story with some updated news.

Evidently a girl in Colorado City, Utah called authorities saying she's being abused by her father in her own home.



Leila, I caught that story yesterday. Quite frankly I don't trust anything out of Colorado City. They have lots of motive to throw doubt at the existence of the girl who made the initial call. They're looking for a legal toe-hold on getting the warrants tossed by saying the initial call was a hoax. JMO, but I don't think it will work with this judge. The prosecutor will focus on the fact that they had a duty to investigate ... and although the girl's identity is in question ... they did find evidence.

[golfmom]

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/572739.html

AUSTIN, Texas | Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said Friday that the state faces a “massive legal undertaking” in its prosecution of a secretive polygamist sect in West Texas, describing it as the largest and most far-reaching apparent sex abuse case he’s ever seen or heard of in Texas.

“This is some of the worst abuse I’ve ever heard of, and we want to ensure that first, these children are going to be protected from any further abuse, and second, that anyone who harmed them illegally will be brought to justice,” Abbott said in an interview with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
-----
“It is going to be a difficult proposition to prosecute these cases, in my opinion,” said Dan Hagood, a defense attorney and former Dallas County, Texas, prosecutor. “It will be a hard-fought battle both legally and factually.” Hagood said the prosecution could easily drag on for months or even years.

[golfmom]

http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=8133037&nav=menu73_2_2

The mayor of Eldorado was with the children after they left the compound, and he described a touching moment.

"Those kids had never seen toys," said Mayor John Nikolauk. "We brought the girls dolls, and they just stared at them. Then they started holding and clutching them. The boys finally started playing with the trains we brought them, and they looked happy. That really made your heart feel good."

[golfmom]

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269763,00.html

Barlow to meet with Texas Rangers today
FLDS children reportedly doing well

Dale Barlow, who lives in Colorado City, Ariz., told the Deseret Morning News he's agreed to meet with the officers who contacted his probation officer to make the arrangements.

"I was told they wanted to talk to me. It's the first time I've heard from the Texas Rangers," Barlow said Friday night.

[golfmom]

I knew they'd go there . . .

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html

An Arizona attorney for polygamist religious leader Warren Jeffs said he believes authorities who raided the fundamentalist church's Texas ranch last week may have been duped by a fake crime report.

"I smelled a rat from the beginning," said attorney Michael Piccarreta, referring to the phone tip purportedly received from a 16-year-old victim at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Eldorado. "I think the Texas authorities need to make a careful analysis of whether they have been part of a ruse."
.......
Piccarreta, who stressed that his remarks were not made on behalf of Jeffs or the church, questioned whether the call may have been a ploy by an FLDS enemy. Piccarreta said his suspicions increased Friday upon learning that Child Protective Services in Arizona recently got a similar report about a teenager claiming to be in Colorado City.
....
Jessop said she is not surprised that Jeffs' attorney would depict the calls as hoaxes so that children in Texas could be returned to FLDS families. "That's what good attorneys do: They try to discredit the victim to free the predators," she added.

[Trino]

I knew they'd go there . . .

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html

An Arizona attorney for polygamist religious leader Warren Jeffs said he believes authorities who raided the fundamentalist church's Texas ranch last week may have been duped by a fake crime report.

"I smelled a rat from the beginning," said attorney Michael Piccarreta, referring to the phone tip purportedly received from a 16-year-old victim at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Eldorado. "I think the Texas authorities need to make a careful analysis of whether they have been part of a ruse."
.......
Piccarreta, who stressed that his remarks were not made on behalf of Jeffs or the church, questioned whether the call may have been a ploy by an FLDS enemy. Piccarreta said his suspicions increased Friday upon learning that Child Protective Services in Arizona recently got a similar report about a teenager claiming to be in Colorado City.
....
Jessop said she is not surprised that Jeffs' attorney would depict the calls as hoaxes so that children in Texas could be returned to FLDS families. "That's what good attorneys do: They try to discredit the victim to free the predators," she added.

Gosh. I hope this wasn't a ruse, but the evidence can still be used, right?

On the women issue... At first I sympathized with the women, i.e. brainwashing, but after some thought, I think it's best they be charged. There ARE women who have put two and two together and escaped, so obviously they knew the cult teachings were wrong. Women shouldn't be placed in a "protective" thought pattern just because they're women. What woman wouldn't feel it was wrong to watch her daughter being abused?

W/o records it may not be possible to find which woman is the natural mother of a child. A woman could easily obtain custody of a "sister's" children, then return to the same lifestyle. Younger kids may not actually know their birth mother is vs. many mommies.

As to the women who were not with their children at the time of the raid, my sympathies are with LE. Who's to say they really are mothers of these children?

[golfmom]

I'm really torn on the issue of the women. I can't get past the idea that this was an ingrained cultural form of abuse and brainwashing. They are convinced that their entire salvation is key to submission. Anyway, I keep thinking of the Stockholm Syndrome; where abducted hostages, shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker.

But, then again you've got three woman calling the media, all outraged, that the state of Texas is keeping them from their children. I just can't work up much sympathy for them.

I don't think the evidence can be tossed out. The warrant was valid. Let's say there was a call to CPS that a child was being abused and it turns out it was a false report. However, during CPS investigation, they see a drug lab and a dead body sitting in the recliner. Just because a false report is investigated doesn't mean they have to close their eyes and not see other criminal activity.

[Trino]

I don't think the evidence can be tossed out. The warrant was valid. Let's say there was a call to CPS that a child was being abused and it turns out it was a false report. However, during CPS investigation, they see a drug lab and a dead body sitting in the recliner. Just because a false report is investigated doesn't mean they have to close their eyes and not see other criminal activity.

Glad to hear this.

I've never bought into the Stockholm Syndrome. (Never thought Patty Hearst was innocent nor did the jury, but that's another story.) I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.

ACLU and Deprograming:
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm.htm#Cases
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm/acluo.htm#UNADORNED

[golfmom]

Glad to hear this.

I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.


Exactly! I've done a lot of reading on "false confessions" and have come to understand that people who are submissive or accommodating have a greater likelihood of confessing to something they didn't do.

What's interesting is that the sect seem to breed only submissive/accommodating members. Anytime, someone was viewed as "rebellious" they were tossed right out.

ETA: Perhaps that will help the deprogramming process.

[golfmom]

You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

[adnoid]

..."Those kids had never seen toys," said Mayor John Nikolauk. "We brought the girls dolls, and they just stared at them. Then they started holding and clutching them. The boys finally started playing with the trains we brought them, and they looked happy. That really made your heart feel good."

Boy, that statement sure brought a lump to my throat. Those poor little kids.

[SuziQ]

You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

Except in one British paper I can't recall the name of, I haven't seen blatent misinformation the LDS church talks about in that article. I've seen numerous though where the FLDS are referred to as Mormon.

Interesting discussion this morning about the ruse. I posted way back when that there may not have actually been a 16 year old that made that call. My feeling is that it could have been someone making the call on the behalf of hundreds of girls just like the 16 year old. And in my book, that's ok. too.

[SuziQ]

To clarify when I've seen the Mormon reference. It was usually in the context that the FLDS refer to themselves as Mormon and the same article would clarify that the LDS church states they are not. So the media has taken steps to clarify that.

[golfmom]

Suzi, one of the things I find interesting is that the Utah papers are all over this story. Probably more than the Texas papers. And, just something that bugs me, is that often the articles are subtly slanted.

[SuziQ]

Suzi, one of the things I find interesting is that the Utah papers are all over this story. Probably more than the Texas papers. And, just something that bugs me, is that often the articles are subtly slanted.

KSL and The Deseret News does more in depth positive reporting regarding the church than, IMO, other media outlets here. But I also see these two outlets reporting on tough subjects that you wouldn't expect from them if they were slanted towards the church. And KSL has the toughest comment board I've ever seen with very low censorship. Posters frequently post how basically the LDS church, Mormons, Mexicans and gun laws are the reasons their life sucks. A mod will very rarely remove a post. Decades ago, the Deseret News was very slanted towards the church and didn't report on any news unless they could sugarcoat it. I couldn't stand their paper. I actually like it now.

So in Utah is there a possibility that reporting is slanted towards the LDS church? Always. But I haven't seen any obvious signs of it in this case.....yet.

[golfmom]

Well, for both those media outlets, there are numerous reporters working on the story, so I guess it depends on the individual reporter on how they view the subject.

Some readers seem to be revolting over the excessive coverage at the Salt Lake Trib:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8900457

[SuziQ]

Well, for both those media outlets, there are numerous reporters working on the story, so I guess it depends on the individual reporter on how they view the subject.

Some readers seem to be revolting over the excessive coverage at the Salt Lake Trib:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8900457

As stated, it's a just a handfull, thankfully. Because I can't get enough info about this story. It's too important of a human interest story not to report on. And hopefully will be our story if the State of Utah ever gets enough guts to do anything.
***
While some readers have found The Tribune's coverage of the Texas raids on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints compound riveting, a handful of readers have said, "Stop it."

[Pepper]

As stated, it's a just a handfull, thankfully. Because I can't get enough info about this story. It's too important of a human interest story not to report on. And hopefully will be our story if the State of Utah ever gets enough guts to do anything.
***
While some readers have found The Tribune's coverage of the Texas raids on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints compound riveting, a handful of readers have said, "Stop it."


For those that say "stop it" I say don't read it if it offends you. :boohoo:

[golfmom]

For those that say "stop it" I say don't read it if it offends you. :boohoo:


LOL, me too Pepper. The more reporters and news outlets covering the better chance we get the info! :woohoo:

[SuziQ]

I moved to Utah in 86'. And I know at that time, everywhere you turned, the LDS church was in the news. Or at least that's how it seemed. I feel much differently about the LDS church now, but at the time I felt like it was shoved down my throat. IMO, media reporting has backed off alot on that and has gotten better. Some people here have not forgotten how it used to be. I can understand that.

[golfmom]

This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age.

[SuziQ]

Wow, I'm sitting here recalling when I first moved to Utah from Los Angeles. The typical scenario upon meeting people here was being asked. "Hi, what ward do you go to?" Ok, that's an exageration, but you get my drift. I was shocked at how quick people assumed you were LDS. And when you stated you weren't. They wanted to know what religion you belonged to. Growing up in L.A., you could know someone for years before you knew what religion they were, if you cared to know at all that is. I went through a culture shock when I moved here. There were so many positives though which is why I stayed.

[SuziQ]

This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2



I agree.

[Trino]

This is why I don't think the evidence collected on the warrant, even if the initial call is a hoax, will get tossed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-compound12apr12,1,2765503.story?page=2

But once inside, Texas Rangers and child welfare officials said they came upon evidence of abuse too widespread to ignore.

According to an affidavit, investigators soon saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and interviewed others who told of entering into polygamist marriages as soon as they reached child-bearing age.

After all the publicity, certainly the underage pregnancy issue will be dealt with, which may jail a few men. I wonder if anyone will be brave enough to tell about physical abuse. I still say it would be wise to detain the women - if only to force them into programs.

This story merits a 2 year follow-up.

"Don't Mess With Texas."

[mostlylurking]

Speaking of the mothers, if a mother living for instance in BFE allowed her husband to rape a 13 year old girl repeatedly and LE found out...she could say that he brainwashed her, beat her, did horrible things to her, but LE would still charge her and the law would back them up. She would go to jail for allowing him to knowingly rape the child and lose her other children. She would be deemed unfit. She would also be charged for neglect and a host of other things. Religion or whatever she wanted to use as a defense would not change the fact she allowed it to happen openly.

My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?

The difference is this:
These women and children (an really, probably the men who are not in power positions) have never been exposed to any other way of life. They don't leave the compounds, and this starts in all the children (from what I've read now) when they are only infants. In their culture, which is based on total control contol of many by only a few from the day they are born, there is no ability to develop a mind of your own.

This is an even worse situation than adults or older teens who run off and join a cult. They at least started with a societal sense of right and wrong surrounding these kind of topics & might have some little voice left inside of them that could help them find a place of escape -- having never been brainwashed, I don't even know about that.

The rest of us are raised in an open world where we are taught this is all wrong (and believe me, everything I've read about how these men in power control the women and children is wrong in my book). So it is easy to justify our anger about what we see happening to these childeren.

But is easy for us to have the compassion they are going to need? Their whole world has been ripped apart. Despite the horrors of how they been taught to raise their children, they lived as a unit. They lived communally for the benefit of everyone in the society. They shared childraising, gardening, food prep, clothes making...... They are one big huge exteded family, and emotionally, I can't fathom how they are even coping.

So, I don't believe that this comparison can be made at all. The situations are totally different.

I also don't believe that these women and children should be allowed to go back to any of the FLDS compounds at all. If our society wants to do right by these folks, we need to very genltly ease them into the outside world. They need to be taugt a whole range of things, like all the different religions from which they can choose, because right now what ever basis of faith they had has been ripped to shreds & we on the outside don't view it as religion, but they did. Education -- get those kids in school -- but public school may not be the best way to start. That's a huge climate change for children who have been so horribly treated already.

Get the women and men who have made it out to come together for discussion to help create a plan. I'm sure that's already in the works.

And for all the comments of the many posters comparing LDS to FLDS, I'm not a religious expert, but it seems to me they are not the same.

In Christianity, there is Catholic and Protestant. In each of those, there are different denominations. All have a certain rituals, etc. None has any say over how the others act. Same with every other major religion of the world. All of us/them should condem the use of their power for this kind of control over children.

And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.

Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

[golfmom]

LOL, mostlylurking ... see sharing your opinion doesn't hurt one little bit.

I don't agree with everything you said, but I'm glad you said it!

[Pepper]

<snip>
Get the women and men who have made it out to come together for discussion to help create a plan. I'm sure that's already in the works.

And for all the comments of the many posters comparing LDS to FLDS, I'm not a religious expert, but it seems to me they are not the same.

In Christianity, there is Catholic and Protestant. In each of those, there are different denominations. All have a certain rituals, etc. None has any say over how the others act. Same with every other major religion of the world. All of us/them should condem the use of their power for this kind of control over children.

And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.
Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

I mostly agree. I think the best resources are the former FLDS who have left the cult to cut through the brainwashing. It's a huge task.

[Pepper]

After all the publicity, certainly the underage pregnancy issue will be dealt with, which may jail a few men. I wonder if anyone will be brave enough to tell about physical abuse. I still say it would be wise to detain the women - if only to force them into programs.

This story merits a 2 year follow-up.

"Don't Mess With Texas."

That part may be tough. If you detain them against their will then it will reinforce their opinion that outsiders are the "instrument of satan." If you let them choose, they will go back to the cult. It's almost a lose/lose.

[barb0301]

And, since I've come out of lurkdom for this rant, I'll add one last opinion.
I have no problem with communal living or the idea of poligamy. If consenting adults want to live that way, then fine.

Just don't do it at the expense of children, to create a subculture of pedophilia in people who have no choice or abiltiy to get out of it.

Whew, been wanting to get this all of my chest since last week.

Good for you, and welcome to the discussion - glad you decided to appear !! Your opinions are more than welcome !

[SuziQ]

Welcome to the thread mostlylurking. I look forward to seeing your posts more often.

[newkid]

You know, I've been watching this story like a hawk and I haven't seen any US or international sources not correctly identifying FLDS. :waitasec:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269713,00.html

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticizing international news media outlets for failing to distinguish between the mainstream LDS Church and the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/reports-of-polygamy-story-vary-across-the-world

The French news agency Agence France-Presse initially posted on its Web site a photograph of the Salt Lake Temple along with the story of the raid on the polygamous compound. The photograph was removed on Wednesday, three days after the Church requested the agency to take it down and correct inaccuracies in the story. The news wire service then sent out correcting information.
Several major Russian media outlets continue to associate the Church with the polygamous sect despite requests to correct reports.
Some Mexican radio reports have erroneously identified the sect as being The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Several media reports in Bolivia, the Caribbean, Uruguay and Colombia have also failed to make the distinction clear.

[SuziQ]

Newkid, I hope the missionaries for the LDS Church, doing work all over the world, don't get pelted with potatoes or worse because of this.

[SuziQ]

Somewhere on LDS.org there is a vid about Myths vs facts. It was stated, IIRC, that only 14% of all LDS members live in Utah. I found that very interesting!

[Glow]

The difference is this:
These women and children (an really, probably the men who are not in power positions) have never been exposed to any other way of life. They don't leave the compounds, and this starts in all the children (from what I've read now) when they are only infants. In their culture, which is based on total control contol of many by only a few from the day they are born, there is no ability to develop a mind of your own.

This is an even worse situation than adults or older teens who run off and join a cult. They at least started with a societal sense of right and wrong surrounding these kind of topics & might have some little voice left inside of them that could help them find a place of escape -- having never been brainwashed, I don't even know about that.

The rest of us are raised in an open world where we are taught this is all wrong (and believe me, everything I've read about how these men in power control the women and children is wrong in my book). So it is easy to justify our anger about what we see happening to these childeren.

But is easy for us to have the compassion they are going to need? Their whole world has been ripped apart. Despite the horrors of how they been taught to raise their children, they lived as a unit. They lived communally for the benefit of everyone in the society. They shared childraising, gardening, food prep, clothes making...... They are one big huge exteded family, and emotionally, I can't fathom how they are even coping.

So, I don't believe that this comparison can be made at all. The situations are totally different.




Hi mostlylurking! nice to read your thoughts. According to "those who really know this topic", you and your views are in good company.

By "experts", for one I am talking about Carolyn Jessop, who grew up in a polygamist family in the FLDS Church in Colorado City, Arizona. At age 18, she was forced into a polygamist marriage with a 50-year-old man, finally fled with her eight children. If anyone has insider knowledge than I think it would be her. She said that impacting mainstream society was very very confusing. She also talked about the role of the men in FLDS. About the way that they learn to view women. She feels the problem is located right at the top. With Warren Jeffs and his select few. One of the select few being her former husband She concludes by saying about the men...

"They don't really even understand what they're doing."

Another person who seems to have a wealth of insight into the FLDS although he is an outsider is Mike Watkiss, a reporter for KTVK. He has reported extensively on polygamy, on Warren Jeffs, on the FLDS Church. He also produced "Colorado City and the Underground Railroad," a great documentary. When being interviewed by Larry King he was asked the following:

King asks the hard question: " Is it your thinking, Mike, that these are basically guys looking for easy sex?"

WATKISS: "You know what, I think many of the men are victims themselves. They're raised in this culture. You've done stories on the lost boys. A lot of the young men are basically used as slave laborers until they're teenagers. They start running heavy equipment when they're about eight. You know, they're building stuff all the time. All the money they make -- or should make -- goes right to the prophet. So I think many of the men are victims. It's the handful of -- it's the guys like Warren Jeffs. It's the hand -- this Merril Jessop, Carolyn's former husband, who's running the place. Those guys live lavishly. You know, this is one of those cockamamie theologies that was put together by men, benefits men and continues to benefit men."


The more I read background information the more it seems that this "practice" of marrying and bedding younger and younger females against their will has picked up momentum under the reign of Warren Jeffs. There are more moderate leaders in the FLDS as well as younger men who could potentially be future leaders if the oppressive yoke of the "handful" in power at the moment could be broken.

[Floh]

Newkid, I hope the missionaries for the LDS Church, doing work all over the world, don't get pelted with potatoes or worse because of this.

I hope the missionaries have been given advice by their leaders on how to cope with questions from the public. they are already looked upon as a joke here in Germany. they don't need this added to their lot.

i always chat to mormon missionaries when i bump into them because they have little to no chance of converts here and spend their days fairly fruitlessly and it seems a shame not to get the chance of a smile or two. often they are americans far from home.

i soon make it clear the only value they'll get from talking with me is talking about Utah (i once lived there for a year) and direct them away from spreading the word to me. we part as friends.

4 years ago when photographs and stories started appearing about Eldorado i contacted the newspaper group i had worked for, but they weren't interested. now it seems as though The Daily Mail (a part of the group) is terribly keen on copy. :rolleyes:

[Glow]

i always chat to mormon missionaries when i bump into them because they have little to no chance of converts here and spend their days fairly fruitlessly and it seems a shame not to get the chance of a smile or two. often they are americans far from home.




how very nice to hear that you do that Floh. I always invite them in and offer them a cool drink since it seems they only drop by here in Fla in the dead heat of summer. I dont have to believe what someone else does in order to admire their deep conviction about what they believe.

[golfmom]

how very nice to hear that you do that Floh. I always invite them in and offer them a cool drink since it seems they only drop by here in Fla in the dead heat of summer. I dont have to believe what someone else does in order to admire their deep conviction about what they believe.

I have some regulars that come by as well. I always take some time and visit and offer hospitality. No chance of conversion, but always pleasant conversation.

[Glow]

Hey, Im sure they are happy for the conversation, right golfmom?
That may be even more true in the months to come if there is any negativity coming their way. :confused:

[Linda7NJ]

Glad to hear this.

I've never bought into the Stockholm Syndrome. (Never thought Patty Hearst was innocent nor did the jury, but that's another story.) I just think there are strong-willed people and people who are submissive. POW stories certainly support this. A for-sure concern is to ask what it will take to de-program these women and children.

ACLU and Deprograming:
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm.htm#Cases
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/acm/acluo.htm#UNADORNED

Oh it's very real. That's why it's so easy for freaks to manipulate abducted children. When everything in your world becomes dependant upon another human being...food, clothes, sleep and even the ability to LIVE it makes them a slave to their will.

[Glow]

I would imagine this is probably rare...

The story of an FLDS couple who made it out together.
Growing up, Pamela Black had only one goal. "I just wanted to get married and have babies because that is all I thought I could do." Her biggest fear was that she was going to be damned. "I thought that God would destroy me if I did not do what I was told," she tells New Times.God has a very real face in Colorado City. At the time, Pamela was a comely teenager. God was embodied in FLDS Prophet Leroy Johnson, or Uncle Leroy. Typically, girls turned over their name to the Prophet when they wanted to be married. In Pamela's case, the Prophet came to her. Uncle Leroy showed up at school while Pamela was singing in the choir Wow, he sure seems to be looking at me," Pamela recalls. "Sure enough, he was." Later that day, 17-year-old Pamela was summoned to a meeting with the Prophet. It is a major event in a young girl's life. "We have someone for you," Pamela says Uncle Leroy let on. The official line is that girls can refuse a marriage. "They give us a choice, but there's really no choice," Pamela says. "You either do what they say because [the Prophet is considered] God, or face damnation. "So, I got married." Her groom was 27-year-old Martin Black, a man she barely knew. After a brief courtship of holding hands and kissing, but rarely talking, the couple were married by Uncle Leroy. The night before the wedding, Pamela's mother told her about sex. Pamela spent her wedding night hiding in the bathroom, hoping to avoid the matrimonial bed. "I was brushing my teeth for an hour," she says. "Eventually, it had to happen." She got into bed. "Take off your nightgown," Pamela says her new husband told her. "I said, No.'" Her new husband ignored her plea. "And thus the sex act was performed against my will," Pamela says. "I was completely traumatized. I was raped." The night set the tone for their marriage. "He literally spent the night alone in the living room while I stayed in the bathroom crying," Pamela says. That such events transpired should not be a condemnation of Martin Black, Pamela says. Martin is a kind, gentle man of high integrity who raised a huge family on $12 an hour working for the school district. Martin, Pamela says, was as much a victim of FLDS doctrine as she was. There is nothing more important in the fundamentalist Mormon world than obedience. Martin had to obey the religious doctrine that he dominate his wife. "He told me he did it because he wanted to own me," Pamela says. "He wanted to prove that I belonged to him." Her husband expressed some backhanded regret for his hard-line stance. "He told me later that he would never do that - to his next wife," Pamela says. From that moment on, Pamela says, she put on a "mask" in public as the happy, dutiful wife. She adopted the "keep-sweet" mantra that the religion pounds into women's heads. Privately, with nowhere to turn, her emotions burst forth in uncontrollable fits. Her children suffered immensely. "The children witnessed a very angry mother," she says. Eventually, the outbursts became known to religious leaders, and pressure was directed toward Martin to divorce her."I knew I was in trouble," she says. "They were taking my kids away. They were taking everything from me because I would not submit. "I was reading books that were not allowed. I've been taught all my life that Buddha was the devil. I really wanted to learn about other cultures." The more she rebelled, the more the system ground on her at every turn. The FLDS assault on her free will, she says, constituted "soul murder." Pamela's rebellion was costing Martin his shot at the highest levels of heaven. He wasn't going to get another wife if he couldn't control the one he had. The couple traveled to Laughlin, Nevada, on a trip arranged by town officials to finalize the divorce. But something strange happened. On a walk along the banks of the Colorado River, they talked, and after a passionate night, they reconciled. "It was one of our best moments," she recalls, saying they felt as if they were rebelling against decades of repression. "We felt like kids again." Once the elders discovered Pamela and Martin were not divorcing, they were evicted from the home they had built on United Effort Plan property. Now free from the church and living separately on privately owned land in a beautiful canyon perched above Colorado City, the couple is trying to piece their lives together. Even though he was diagnosed with cancer and recently underwent brain surgery, Martin is upbeat. "I'm too busy to die," he said, standing waist deep in a ditch he had just finished digging for a sewer line with his backhoe. With no need to go through the Prophet anymore, Pamela and Martin say they are dealing with God directly. "I think for myself," Pam says.Recalling the FLDS' strong discouragement of television watching, Martin laughs. "I've got dish," he says.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy103.html

[mysteriew]

One thing that puzzles me about Az and Utah and Colorado. They keep saying that they cannot find anyone willing to make a complaint about the child sexual abuse. Yet the reason we know about it is because of those who left the communities, who got out. And they are very vocal about what happened to them and what was happening to others. Are they not going to LE and filing complaints? Why aren't those states meeting with them and acting on their public complaints?

[Fairy1]

Several years ago, my husband met a young women through work who eventually shared her own story with him. Although she wasn't raised in a cult, her family was isolated from mainstream society. She and her siblings were homeschooled, they were not allowed to watch television, listen to music, to play outside or have friends outside of the home. When she turned 18 (she was the oldest), her parents threw her out. She literally had no where to go, no friends, no other relatives and no knowledge whatsoever of the outside world. She was lucky to find her way to a new and productive life, but it could have gone horribly wrong for her. At the time she shared her story, she was in the process of legally gaining custody of her younger siblings, whom she was forced to leave behind.

[Glow]

another article on understanding what is going on with the men of FLDS

Those males who stay are exploited as
cheap labour and are forced to “tithe” all
but a bare sustenance allowance back to the
United Effort Plan trust, which is currently
conservatively estimated to be worth
US$160 million. They are kept in line with
promises that if they are good, they will be
rewarded with the requisite number of
wives being assigned them, and with threats
that if they are bad they will lose their jobs
in FLDS-run companies and be ejected from
their homes on UEP-owned land.
As the authors of Life in Bountiful concluded,
“The frustrations resulting from
these extreme demands of obedience have
no outlet in the group beyond furtive, abusive
behaviour towards self and other.”
Jane Blackmore (former FLDS wife) believes the FLDS is a
cult and "the only way to break it up is with
education. Women and girls are the most obvious
victims, but not the only ones. "
http://www.inroadsjournal.ca/pdfs/Inroads_17_polygamy.pdf

[golfmom]

Glow that was an incredible story. Thank you so much for posting it.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for answering my post, MostlyLurking! :) I learn something new every day and other ways to see certain situations. It brings more questions and more anger towards the men in this group (as if I weren't already angry enough at the likes of them). I still cannot fathom how we have allowed this bs to continue this long without putting a stop to it.

[SuziQ]

Below is a great article about how things changed under Warren Jeffs rule. About an FLDS mother trying to get authorities to investigate the disappearance of her 15 year old daughter. Who was taken out of school during the day to be married off. Her mother has only seen her once since walking down a street. About those who are exciled worrying about family they left behind and a bloody holy war in the name of religion. Good stories at this link:

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

[Linda7NJ]

Below is a great article about how things changed under Warren Jeffs rule. About an FLDS mother trying to get authorities to investigate the disappearance of her 15 year old daughter. Who was taken out of school during the day to be married off. Her mother has only seen her once since walking down a street. About those who are exiled worrying about family they left behind and a bloody holy war in the name of religion. Good stories at this link:

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.

[SuziQ]

One thing that puzzles me about Az and Utah and Colorado. They keep saying that they cannot find anyone willing to make a complaint about the child sexual abuse. Yet the reason we know about it is because of those who left the communities, who got out. And they are very vocal about what happened to them and what was happening to others. Are they not going to LE and filing complaints? Why aren't those states meeting with them and acting on their public complaints?

Funny how that happens isn't it? Read below. I'm pretty sure Colorado City Police Chief is FLDS himself! Talk about letting the fox watch the hen house! Or however that saying goes.

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm

(snip)
Officials with Arizona's Division of Child, Youth and Family refused comment, citing confidentiality laws. Mohave County sheriffs deputies say they last investigated in October, when they were told that Nichole Holm has chosen to live with an aunt. Still, they sent the case to county prosecutors, who passed it on to the Arizona attorney general's office. A spokeswoman for the attorney general said "it's extremely unlikely" for her office to prosecute cases not pursued at the county level.
Colorado City Police Chief Roundy said his department investigated Holm's complaint, but acknowledged that officers didn't actually interview her. "I didn't feel I had to talk with her. It's done. It's been done forever. All the allocations (sic) of Lenore is not true. The girl is not married.
She has not been raped. Everything is upboard and legit," he said. Roundy promised to forward the investigative report to The Denver Post, but failed to do so. He said his department has responded to only five domestic abuse calls during his 12 years on the force.
"Anything reported, we'd investigate, of course. But we just don't have domestic problems. We've got family structure. They're decent, law-abiding citizens," he said.

[SeriouslySearching]

I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.I think under the circumstances, it would be the exception. For a woman to be able to come to her senses and leave is remarkable in itself. The children, as I understand it, are given to other mothers in order to prevent the mother from being able to gather them up and remove them. The law should have been able to walk in and get her children with a court order once she is out, but that doesn't happen for whatever reason (which I don't understand at all).

[SuziQ]

I honestly don't have much respect for a woman that would escape while leaving her children behind.

That's why most of the women don't leave. They aren't allowed to take their kids. And authorities are of no help whatsoever. In that article, it talks about a mother trying to find her 15 year old daughter who was marriend of without her permission, and not getting any help. Alot of women are kicked out and no one helps them get their kids.

It's a rare case when an entire family gets kicked out together and can remain intact.

[SuziQ]

http://www.childbrides.org/cops_spec_chief_decertified_in_ruling_on_bigamy_ca se.html

ST. GEORGE - The Utah division of Peace Officer Standards and Training officially voted Tuesday to revoke the state certification of Colorado City Police Chief Sam Roundy, who's department also has jurisdiction over the bordering town of Hildale.

No one on the board opposed the motion to uphold the decision to decertify both Roundy and another officer.

An internal investigation judge found Roundy to be violating the bigamy laws, as well as improperly handling a child sex abuse case. In that case, Utah POST Director Rich Townsend said Roundy apparently did not properly report the incident to the Division of Child and Family Services.

The last time Utah POST decertified a police chief was three years ago when the Gunnison police chief was found to be using or disseminating police information improperly, Townsend said.

The Colorado City Police Department, where officers are certified in both Utah and Arizona, patrols the two towns dominated by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The FLDS church, led by Warren Jeffs, constitutes the largest polygamist group in North America.
(more at link)

[SuziQ]

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,515039700,00.html

(snip and picture of the POF at link)
Former Hildale police officer Rodney Holm was decertified after being convicted in August of felony bigamy for having "spiritually married" a 16-year-old girl when he was already married.
Shurtleff thinks Holm's fellow officers and his chief, Colorado City, Ariz., Police Marshal Sam Roundy, knew about the situation but didn't take action in deference to Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist LDS Church where Holm is a member.

"It appears to me that chief Sam Roundy is not in control but that (Warren) Jeff's in control," Shurtleff told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday night. "We need to look into it and see if they are (bigamists)." Several women who formerly lived as polygamists in Hildale but have since left the lifestyle have told the AG's office that it is common knowledge among residents there that "you don't go to the police on issues, because they are loyal to the church," Shurtleff's chief deputy, Kirk Torgensen, said.

ETA: Enlarge that pic and tell me what teenage girl wants to have that on top of her....ugh.

[Glow]

Glow that was an incredible story. Thank you so much for posting it.


Welcome Golfmom! :blowkiss:

[SeriouslySearching]

Sorry, Suzi...I can't even look at those pictures as I prefer to keep my lunch down. Everytime I see one another of those pervs, it makes my skin crawl.

I admit I have not read this entire thread, but please tell me there aren't people here that are in support of this.

[SuziQ]

Whoa, remember when Warren's brother was arrested resulting in a sex solicitation charge because the other guy wouldn't admit they were in a car on the way to deliver cash and other items to Warren? Well a letter from a Marshall of Colorado City who appears to want to replace Chief Roundy was found. IMO, that letter shows that Warren Jeffs was not only running Colorado City's Police Department. He was doing it while on the run. Holy Cow!

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy585.html


Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William. I have felt a unity between the peace officers. They have all stated to me their desire to follow the directives that are placed before us. I feel that I am the weakest one among them, but I want to fill the position that you would have me fill and do the job the way that you would like it done.

[SuziQ]

Sorry, Suzi...I can't even look at those pictures as I prefer to keep my lunch down. Everytime I see one another of those pervs, it makes my skin crawl.

I admit I have not read this entire thread, but please tell me there aren't people here that are in support of this.

Oh I can relate. It's hard to stomach. No one is in support of this. Some worry about rights being violated and hurting the women, children and the legal case in the long run. I think though, as more info has come out, most of those fears have been eleviated.

[LinasK]

Whoa, remember when Warren's brother was arrested resulting in a sex solicitation charge because the other guy wouldn't admit they were in a car on the way to deliver cash and other items to Warren? Well a letter from the new Marshall of Colorado City that replaced Chief Roundy was found. IMO, that letter shows that Warren Jeffs was not only running Colorado City's Police Department. He was doing it while on the run. Holy Cow!

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy585.html


Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William. I have felt a unity between the peace officers. They have all stated to me their desire to follow the directives that are placed before us. I feel that I am the weakest one among them, but I want to fill the position that you would have me fill and do the job the way that you would like it done.

Sick, Sick, Sick!!!:sick: Here is the guy who is supposedly in a leadership position in his community, yet he is not protecting its members, he's obstructing justice and can't wait for Uncle Warren to return and run his life!:eek::sick::sick::sick:

[SuziQ]

More info on Chief Marshal Fred Barlow:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html

(snip)
Chief Marshal Fred Barlow is facing revocation of his police certification by Arizona authorities, who cite an October 2005 letter Barlow wrote pledging allegiance to FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, then a wanted fugitive.

[SuziQ]

From the same article I linked above.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html


People who have left the FLDS faith claim marshals handle many crimes by reporting offenders to FLDS leaders, who dole out adjudication. Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith said he has told the marshals it's impossible their towns, with a shared population of about 6,000, have so little crime. Child abuse and sex abuse are present in every community, Smith said, but those offenses in particular are not being reported.

[LinasK]

More info on Chief Marshal Fred Barlow:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy600.html

(snip)
Chief Marshal Fred Barlow is facing revocation of his police certification by Arizona authorities, who cite an October 2005 letter Barlow wrote pledging allegiance to FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, then a wanted fugitive.

Good!:clap::clap::clap: They need to totally clean out this cesspool of assholes and bring in cops from the outside. These guys weren't pursuing the sex abuse cases anyhow unless they were involved themselves!

[SuziQ]

Sick, Sick, Sick!!!:sick: Here is the guy who is supposedly in a leadership position in his community, yet he is not protecting its members, he's obstructing justice and can't wait for Uncle Warren to return and run his life!:eek::sick::sick::sick:

We know that physical abuse too often results in death. So what happened to those who died from abuse?

[LinasK]

We know that physical abuse too often results in death. So what happened to those who died from abuse?


Ummm, I think that's why they're bringing in cadaver dogs in Texas. Probably what they did with the teenage boys.

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for answering my post, MostlyLurking! :) I learn something new every day and other ways to see certain situations. It brings more questions and more anger towards the men in this group (as if I weren't already angry enough at the likes of them). I still cannot fathom how we have allowed this bs to continue this long without putting a stop to it.

Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)

In our whole society, I can't fathom how we let a lot of things continue.
We have the capabilities of righting so many wrongs, yet the wrongs just continue on and on and on and on......

[legallee]

My question is how is that different than what these mothers have done and why are the mothers not being charged?
These mothers have never lived outside the compound. They never had a friend or a family member to tell them it's wrong. They have been taught from day one, it's "normal" thereforth they don't see it as abuse. Sadly, it's a way of life to them.

[LinasK]

Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)


It's perfectly okay to just say, "I totally agree".

[SuziQ]

Thanks, SS, and to all who responded on my rant. I frequently have things to say, but by the time I make it to threads, it has all been said, so I just read. :)

In our whole society, I can't fathom how we let a lot of things continue.
We have the capabilities of righting so many wrongs, yet the wrongs just continue on and on and on and on......

What I find shocking is this isn't a matter of a rumor or two based on very little info. There is ton's of info out there. All you have to do is Google. And going by the dates of the info I am finding, people have been yelling from rooftops for decades.

[mostlylurking]

It's perfectly okay to just say, "I totally agree".

Ha -- you don't know me. I'm not capable of something so easy.:crazy:

[SuziQ]

These mothers have never lived outside the compound. They never had a friend or a family member to tell them it's wrong. They have been taught from day one, it's "normal" thereforth they don't see it as abuse. Sadly, it's a way of life to them.

Not to mention it's banged into their heads from the day they are born, that if they do any different they will go to hell.

[Sally]

CRAWFORD — Residents in southeastern Delta County have alerted local law enforcement a polygamous fundamentalist Mormon group might have moved into the area.

Delta County Sheriff Fred McKee said several Crawford residents have contacted his office about a series of structures, including a lengthy privacy fence, that have sprung up on a 35-acre property nearly 10 miles west of here.
http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/11/041208_1a_Crawford_sect.html

This is on the Western Slope of Colrado and right in my backyard.
This/these groups have plenty of money. It can't all be welfare money.

[LinasK]

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/11/041208_1a_Crawford_sect.html

This is on the Western Slope of Colrado and right in my backyard.
This/these groups have plenty of money. It can't all be welfare money.

The privacy fence and the name Barlow would be sending up red flags for me!:eek::eek::eek:

[SuziQ]

At the below link are snippets of Chief Fred Barlow's deposition in connection with decertifying him.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0809colo