PDA

View Full Version : Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #2



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

sherri79
04-13-2008, 10:59 AM
Isn't this story enough? The title is Mothers Plead to See Children

Here's the link:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695269395,00.html
first i would like to note the ages of the mothers and the ages of the children they claim. funny how all 3 of the women only claim children that would have been born after the mothers came of age.

as i said before when i spoke with glow, these possible moms created this problem. there are no birth records. no shot records, no school records. children in this compound have been given to non related families to raise in some cases and in others they have 6 women they call mother.

hell 4 of the kids held are mine. prove i am a liar. if you can not prove i am a liar you should let me see the children. just over look the fact i can not prove i am honest. after all i know their names and ages so i must be the mother. well i know the names of my neighbors kids and their ages but that is not proof either way.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:00 AM
OK, this is NOT a newspaper in the normal sense:

http://www.deseretnews.com/home/1,5125,,00.html

The MAIN links on their home page go to the following categories:

MORMON TIMES
LDS CHURCH NEWS
MISSION REUNIONS
RELIGION AND ETHICS

Truly
04-13-2008, 11:04 AM
Did you see this one? Enough to give me hearthburn when I read this!

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1354729/
Polygamist sect gets millions from U.S. government in loan, contracts

American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.


Thank you for that link, molly! As they say, follow the money...




One of those businesses, NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, with most of the money coming in recent years from the Defense Department for wheel and brake components for military aircraft.
A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business, according to online databases that track federal government appropriations.
NewEra, previously known as Western Precision Inc. and located in Hildale, Utah, also received a $900,000 loan in 2005 from the federal Small Business Administration, the data show.
The president and chief executive of the company is John. C. Wayman, identified as an FLDS leader and a close associate to Warren Jeffs, the sect's "prophet," who was convicted last year as an accomplice to rape for arranging the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.
When Jeffs, who was one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, was arrested in the summer of 2006, he was driving Wayman's late-model red Cadillac Escalade, government officials say.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 11:08 AM
How about the story from the Deseret News that claims a reporters overheard this (see above):

She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."

And, what about the story (again the Deseret News) that says a child cries for her mother WHO WAS NOT AT THE RANCH DURING THE RAID? This appears to be supported by the Deseret News reporters who have been there.

Note: many posters are thanking the Deseret News for the info. I think the Deseret News can be supported as accurrate.
from your link above.

"she claimed " was Kathleen a mother who spoke to a reporter not what the reporter claimed to have over heard.
Kathleen believes some of the child welfare workers have used frightening tactics when interviewing the children. She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."

Glow
04-13-2008, 11:09 AM
You know Glow, there will always be times in which the rights of one person will conflict with the rights of another. I could cite countless examples. But when that happens I'm in favor of the rights of the weaker party. In this case the weaker party is the abused children. The government needs to do whatever it can to protect the children, and if the rights of the adults get stepped on in the process, I don't give a damn.

Hi Pepper,

I agree that as a society we have a moral and legal obligation to protect children from abuse. I haven't yet seen or heard of anyone on this board that is for the abuse of children. Right now, it is just becoming visible that "perhaps" the rights of "some" adults have been a "little bit" violated. Ok, after all most of us cant even identify with these women on any level except motherhood. Its not like they are soccer moms or in most other ways "like us"

Under these circumstances it gets very easy to just focus on the buzz words..sexual abuse! minors! "alleged this and alleged that"
Those words make us as a society anxious and we want "someone" to "do" something...in this case the child protective services. Now something is getting done and we (society) feel relief. The worlds not going to pot after all.
As I mentioned above though, now that the children have been "rescued", we are beginning to see just a bit of how many adult rights have been sidestepped. We are just looking at the tip of the iceberg and it is just a few who are speaking up. But next up will come the realization of how these children's rights are about to be (or have already been) violated. Because that is about to happen. And because of the sheer number of children alone, the violation of rights will be large scale. I think then, there will be more of an outcry, when its the children's rights being ignored.

I for one do not agree that we should live in a society where the good of the individual is sacrificed to achieve the good of the many as determined by the state.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

Floh
04-13-2008, 11:17 AM
I know that these groups have exchanged children younger than six years old, bouncing them around the communities and that many of these children don't know their real ages or who their biological parents are. I had an awful thought and I wonder if anyone else has wondered about this.

These pedo's don't hesitate to take these children and abuse them, and primarily these are children from within their various communities. What's to say that some of those children aren't some of the children listed as missing in various states across the U.S.? (Not from within their groups but children from outside their groups who have been snatched away from their homes or playgrounds etc.)

A thought which could well be. :(

barb0301
04-13-2008, 11:22 AM
I for one can't understand why this is being viewed as any different than other cases where children are removed from their homes for "suspected" child abuse.

If I had a house next door, with 2 men and multiple women living, and there appeared to be a pregnant 15 year old girl and noone had reported it, I would. CPS would come in and investigate. Upon arriving, they find 2 adult men, 2 adult women and 2 teenage girls, 1 pregnant, 2 minor children. The pregnant girl refuses to say who impregnated her. One of the adult women claims to be her mom.

The adults were responsible for her safety. Under TX law, they were legally responsible for reporting child sexual abuse. They didn't. That's child neglect. The other children are in danger of not being cared for. CPS is going to remove all the children until an investigation is done.

The adult women are not going to be allowed to accompany the children. They are not going to be allowed to contact them at all until there is a hearing. Yes, the children are going to go through some trauma. Who knows what trauma they have already gone through.

Why is this any different? In this situation, at least some of the adult women were allowed to leave - they were given far more latitude than in other cases. In other words, they were given special treatment because of special circumstances.

As a former foster parent, I can tell you that many times, the abused child is going to continue to cling to the abuser, not knowing any better. That is who they know and "love", and they do not understand the moral, legal ramifications of what is going on. It's hard, it's sad, and it is traumatic for everyone. But the childrens' welfare is at stake here, and their rights trump the adult's rights. They are not the "property" of the adults, they are living, breathing human beings, and must be protected at all costs.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 11:23 AM
Hi Pepper,

I agree that as a society we have a moral and legal obligation to protect children from abuse. I haven't yet seen or heard of anyone on this board that is for the abuse of children. Right now, it is just becoming visible that "perhaps" the rights of "some" adults have been a "little bit" violated. Ok, after all most of us cant even identify with these women on any level except motherhood. Its not like they are soccer moms or in most other ways "like us"

Under these circumstances it gets very easy to just focus on the buzz words..sexual abuse! minors! "alleged this and alleged that"
Those words make us as a society anxious and we want "someone" to "do" something...in this case the child protective services. Now something is getting done and we (society) feel relief. The worlds not going to pot after all.
As I mentioned above though, now that the children have been "rescued", we are beginning to see just a bit of how many adult rights have been sidestepped. We are just looking at the tip of the iceberg and it is just a few who are speaking up. But next up will come the realization of how these children's rights are about to be (or have already been) violated. Because that is about to happen. And because of the sheer number of children alone, the violation of rights will be large scale. I think then, there will be more of an outcry, when its the children's rights being ignored.

I for one do not agree that we should live in a society where the good of the individual is sacrificed to achieve the good of the many as determined by the state.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755
are you talking about legally violating rights or morally. a innocent man can be arrested and put on trial and found guilty without the government ever breaking the law.

in this case some innocent may suffer but within the bounds of the law. the children have been taken from their parents to allow time for a investigation of serious charges of abuse. if the parents are innocent it may be a moral crime but not a violation of their legal rights.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 11:24 AM
OK, this is NOT a newspaper in the normal sense:

http://www.deseretnews.com/home/1,5125,,00.html

The MAIN links on their home page go to the following categories:

MORMON TIMES
LDS CHURCH NEWS
MISSION REUNIONS
RELIGION AND ETHICS

I'm a bit confused. The linked article tends to be favorable to the plight of the FLDS women. If the point I think you are trying to make is the Deseret News is slanted towards the LDS Church (could be) then the article would have been slanted against the FLDS women and it was not.

I need more coffee before tackling anything this morning. lol.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:27 AM
How exactly are they supposed to know who impregnated the 15 year old girl if she doesn't tell? It could be the 16 year old boy down the block.

This is a CLOSED community and the members are clearly breaking the law. They don't even deny it, but claim that they are being religiously persecuted. However, they have a whole bag of tricks to thwart any effort by law enforcement to investigate the crimes committed within the community.

Glow
04-13-2008, 11:28 AM
BTW SuziQ YES! I did see where Trent said he was photographing with one leg dangling :eek:

Maybe he is the reason LE instituted a no fly zone over the compound :)

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm a bit confused. The linked article tends to be favorable to the plight of the FLDS women. If the point I think you are trying to make is the Deseret News is slanted towards the LDS Church (could be) then the article would have been slanted against the FLDS women and it was not.

I need more coffee before tackling anything this morning. lol.

Just like we discussed yesterday ... I guess it depends on the individual reporters. This is a CHURCH OWNED NEWSPAPER. Oddly enough, it is the only news source that FLDS has allowed within the compound at Eldorado. Now, I've got to ask myself "Why?" Wouldn't it make more sense to allow local news sources in? Or, do they know that those news sources, would ask the tough questions? So, IMO, they only allow in the media that they know is favorable to them and that they can control.

Glow
04-13-2008, 11:35 AM
are you talking about legally violating rights or morally. a innocent man can be arrested and put on trial and found guilty without the government ever breaking the law.

in this case some innocent may suffer but within the bounds of the law. the children have been taken from their parents to allow time for a investigation of serious charges of abuse. if the parents are innocent it may be a moral crime but not a violation of their legal rights.

The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 11:35 AM
Just like we discussed yesterday ... I guess it depends on the individual reporters. This is a CHURCH OWNED NEWSPAPER. Oddly enough, it is the only news source that FLDS has allowed within the compound at Eldorado. Now, I've got to ask myself "Why?" Wouldn't it make more sense to allow local news sources in? Or, do they know that those news sources, would ask the tough questions? So, IMO, they only allow in the media that they know is favorable to them and that they can control.

I don't see any newspaper with such obvious and undeniable links to the LDS church, going out of their way to report favorably on any subject regarding the FLDS church. Especially given the LDS church stance on polygamy and the FLDS church. I can understand however, why the FLDS would chose a paper from Utah. They simply know them better and have more experience with them. JMO of course!

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:37 AM
Suzi, I disagree with you on the the fact that LDS is adamantly opposed to FLDS and their beliefs. I think that the church does send out some mixed signals and that some, not all, believe that polygamy is a fundamental belief of their faith.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 11:37 AM
what rights can children expect from our government? do children have any rights? do children have a right to health care? education? to live free of sexual advances until childhood ends.

if a parent fails to provide basic needs for a child who should? yes i think the right to be free from sexual advances of a 50 year old man a basic right. a parent has a right to raise their child with the morals they see fit.

when a parent's rights conflict with the child's rights we have laws that cover how it should be handled. in this case a judge issued a order to place the children in protective custody while the case is investigated. not only is this how our movement should work legally but morally.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:42 AM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?

Ohhhhhh now I understand! Texas made a huge mistake changing their laws to reflect that children below the age of 16 couldn't marry. Well then, it's a bad law and they should let everyone go back home. Seems like Texas must have a bunch of bad legislation to allow the travesty of LE enforcing their laws.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't see any newspaper with such obvious and undeniable links to the LDS church, going out of their way to report favorably on any subject regarding the FLDS church. Especially given the LDS church stance on polygamy and the FLDS church. I can understand however, why the FLDS would chose a paper from Utah. They simply know them better and have more experience with them. JMO of course!

Suzi, this paper is owned by the LDS church.

barb0301
04-13-2008, 11:44 AM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?

Because every adult on that compound was legally responsible for reporting the sexual abuse of minor children. They did not do so.

If it was me and my children, and an article came out in the paper, there would be a thread here on WS and everyone would be in an uproar about what a bad mother I was for allowing this to happen to my child. Because this is attached to a "religious" organization and is happening on such a massive scale, LE and CPS are being taken to task by a minority of people for "abusing the rights" of the adults who were responsible for the safety and well being of these children.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 11:47 AM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?
it was legal to own slaves in this country at one point. if i did that today i would not expect any reasonable person to think the historical abuse made it ok now.

why are all the children taken if they begin sexual abuse at puberty? well first there are allegations of abuse that involves the younger children. if you lock a child in a closet and refuse to feed them it can be considered abuse. if it has reached the level of abuse is for a court to decide.

second this is not a single family home but one home with many familys living in it. no child should ever be left in a home with a adult that has sexually abused any child in that home. if i only rape my son i should not have custody of my daughter. the fact i rape a child makes me a danger to children and unfit.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 11:47 AM
Suzi, I disagree with you on the the fact that LDS is adamantly opposed to FLDS and their beliefs. I think that the church does send out some mixed signals and that some, not all, believe that polygamy is a fundamental belief of their faith.

IMO, the opinions of a few rogue LDS members is not being orchistrated in any way of the LDS church. Even those few members know their pro-polygamist beliefs are against the LDS church doctrine. The LDS bishop from AZ is a prime example. He's basically a dirty old man coveting the return of polygamy. The fact that he hides his identity and his belief in polygamy from his family and the LDS church is proof that he knows his views are wrong. He is not a true Mormon and should be excommunicated.

SLP
04-13-2008, 11:48 AM
first i would like to note the ages of the mothers and the ages of the children they claim. funny how all 3 of the women only claim children that would have been born after the mothers came of age.

as i said before when i spoke with glow, these possible moms created this problem. there are no birth records. no shot records, no school records. children in this compound have been given to non related families to raise in some cases and in others they have 6 women they call mother.

hell 4 of the kids held are mine. prove i am a liar. if you can not prove i am a liar you should let me see the children. just over look the fact i can not prove i am honest. after all i know their names and ages so i must be the mother. well i know the names of my neighbors kids and their ages but that is not proof either way.

Exactly. I find this especially strange in light of the FLDS past members stories and information from the raid that suggests that it would be strange for a woman in this cult to remain unmarried and without chidlren until her twenties. They also all only had 2 or three children just like most normal American families. Yet there were three of these woman in the same place, all gone the same day and they are the ONLY ones that have called and spoke to the press :rolleyes: .Sorry but not believing it.

Then you add to this that these woman have been trained to not speak to outsiders and let their husbands have control in all things yet they are calling up press and giving out information about themselves. Information that has no basis except for their word and contrasts everything that members and law enforcement has been saying about this cult for decades. IMO those phone calls were influenced by the FLDS lawyers and higher up memebers. The women and children may be victims but the people running things and their lawyers are no idiots.

As much as I would like to think that they were women calling the press concerned for their children I am more inclined to think the phone calls were more about putting out good publicity for the cult and trying to get public outcry on their side. That is what pressured the state to give their children back in the fifties and what gave them the ability to do whatever they have wanted for the past fifty plus years. It would be natural that they would try to put out false information to make it look like law enforcement is lying and that they are innocent victims.

Until the women can show up and be interviewed and have documentation I don't think that they should see their children. Even in a normal CPS case if my children were taken away I could not just show up to a CPS foster home and speak with my children without having documentation of who I was and who my children were and going through the CPS legal process. JMHO.

Glow
04-13-2008, 11:49 AM
Well we KNOW this has to be a blatant lie since we were informed earlier in the week by the mainstream media, that the children were seeing toys for the "first time" only while in the hands of CPS.

The children's shoes still sit neatly, side by side where they last left them. Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows sit on the porch of their three-story, log cabin-like home.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html


By the way, I spent a little time checking that out and I was able to find several stories straight from the mouths of former FLDS women that they had toys, including dolls. But that isnt what we were told was it?

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:50 AM
This case cannot be thought of in individual terms. The "families" live collectively, on church owned property, and are all related to each other. The entire property is basically ONE family's home. We're not talking about a neighborhood or gated community. LE properly saw the entire facility as taking action on ONE home.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 11:51 AM
Suzi, this paper is owned by the LDS church.

I know. That's why I think the Deseret news is not slanted towards this story. Otherwise they would not have published the one at all we discussed this morning and if they did, it would not have been as favorable to the FLDS as it was.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:52 AM
IMO, the opinions of a few rogue LDS members is not being orchistrated in any way of the LDS church. Even those few members know their pro-polygamist beliefs are against the LDS church doctrine. The LDS bishop from AZ is a prime example. He's basically a dirty old man coveting the return of polygamy. The fact that he hides his identity and his belief in polygamy from his family and the LDS church is proof that he knows his views are wrong. He is not a true Mormon and should be excommunicated.

Absolutely Suzi!

golfmom
04-13-2008, 11:53 AM
I know. That's why I think the Deseret news is not slanted towards this story. Otherwise they would not have published the one at all we discussed this morning and if they did, it would not have been as favorable to the FLDS as it was.

The Deseret News is the ONLY media that is being allowed inside the Eldorado compound.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 11:56 AM
The Deseret News is the ONLY media that is being allowed inside the Eldorado compound.

I don't take that to mean that they were picked because they support the FLDS. But I do think it's a matter of picking the media outlets they are familiar with and have dealt with in the past.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 11:59 AM
Well we KNOW this has to be a blatant lie since we were informed earlier in the week by the mainstream media, that the children were seeing toys for the "first time" only while in the hands of CPS.

The children's shoes still sit neatly, side by side where they last left them. Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows sit on the porch of their three-story, log cabin-like home.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html


By the way, I spent a little time checking that out and I was able to find several stories straight from the mouths of former FLDS women that they had toys, including dolls. But that isnt what we were told was it? i think this is more a matter of perception. laura ingalls had toys but would be shocked and probably scared to see modern toys. i think the earlier story talked about the children having never seen crayons. the difference between what my kids use as toys and what these children have is a culture issue not a abuse issue.

legallee
04-13-2008, 12:03 PM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?
one difference: It was a practice that was NOT forced upon the young girls.

Trino
04-13-2008, 12:09 PM
This case cannot be thought of in individual terms. The "families" live collectively, on church owned property, and are all related to each other. The entire property is basically ONE family's home. We're not talking about a neighborhood or gated community. LE properly saw the entire facility as taking action on ONE home.


Every person, according to the Constitution, has rights. In our society only an individual can be tried, not an entire community no matter how they live.

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:15 PM
it was legal to own slaves in this country at one point. if i did that today i would not expect any reasonable person to think the historical abuse made it ok now.

why are all the children taken if they begin sexual abuse at puberty? well first there are allegations of abuse that involves the younger children. if you lock a child in a closet and refuse to feed them it can be considered abuse. if it has reached the level of abuse is for a court to decide.

second this is not a single family home but one home with many familys living in it. no child should ever be left in a home with a adult that has sexually abused any child in that home. if i only rape my son i should not have custody of my daughter. the fact i rape a child makes me a danger to children and unfit.
Hi sherri,

concerning point #
1 Who "alleged" that was happening at VFZ specifically? The anonymous unfindable 16 yr old? I know that statements about abuse in the FLDS have also been made by former members. But none of them claimed it had happened specifically at VFZ.

concerning point #2
actually there are many homes and many families. The concept of a gated community of people is more accurate. The fact that they engage in communal living in a way I am not at all familiar with personally doesn't change my ability to see that they are a community...some have even called them a "town" and small "city". I myself remain committed to my goal of not using buzz words or phrases such as "rape of child" when posting on this thread. As I stated earlier, this wouldn't have even been rape by Texas law 75 years ago. Laws change, some for the better, some for the worse, getting people to move along with the changing laws has always been the challenge. That is the challenge here. The FLDS need to

a) adjust church policy to conform to the law as it exists in the state of Texas

OR

b)they need to know that they will be prosecuted by the state that has the right to set its own laws as voted by the people who live in that state.

OR

c) they need to move to another area or country where they can continue to do what they doggedly insist is right in their own eyes as they see it.

That is their freedom of choice at work.

Getting people to agree to live and adjust their religious and cultural beliefs, to conform with the ever changing laws, WITHOUT violating individuals civil rights has been something uniquely American. Even though we as a country have stumbled many times and fallen in the direction of violating civil rights of certain groups, the getting up and moving forward is always in the direction of freedom and liberty and diversity. It takes alert citizens and a government that knows its boundaries though if we are going to keep moving in that direction. Each case sets precedents. That is the way our system works. That is why this one alarms me.

Trino
04-13-2008, 12:19 PM
c) they need to move to another area or country where they can continue to do what they doggedly insist is right in their own eyes as they see it.

Jim Jones tried that, remember? But, honestly, as adults if they want to practice pologamy, they obviously have the financial means to move outside the country. Just leave kids alone.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 12:20 PM
Well we KNOW this has to be a blatant lie since we were informed earlier in the week by the mainstream media, that the children were seeing toys for the "first time" only while in the hands of CPS.

The children's shoes still sit neatly, side by side where they last left them. Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows sit on the porch of their three-story, log cabin-like home.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html


By the way, I spent a little time checking that out and I was able to find several stories straight from the mouths of former FLDS women that they had toys, including dolls. But that isnt what we were told was it?

Glow, child-sized shovels and minature wheelbarrows ARE NOT TOYS! IMO, they are the instruments for training this little people to contribute WORK to the commune. Where are the toy trains, boats and cars? Where are the board games, the Spiderman capes, and skateboards?

You seem to be continually criticizing everything that has been happening at YFZ. What do YOU WANT the authorities to do? Look the other way? Let these people continue their child abuse unchallenged? What do YOU want?

Trino
04-13-2008, 12:23 PM
Glow, child-sized shovels and minature wheelbarrows ARE NOT TOYS! IMO, they are the instruments for training this little people to contribute WORK to the commune. Where are the toy trains, boats and cars? Where are the board games, the Spiderman capes, and skateboards?

Gosh. Kids have to have toy trains, boats, cars, board games, Spiderman capes, and skateboards?

Older society toys included shovels and wheelbarrows. I had these as a kid. And, to think about it, yep, my parents were training me to help them in the garden. Nothing wrong with that. IMO it's certainly above video games.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 12:25 PM
Gosh. Kids have to have toy trains, boats, cars, board games, Spiderman capes, and skateboards?

Older society toys included shovels and wheelbarrows. I had these as a kid. And, to think about it, yep, my parents were training me to help them in the garden. Nothing wrong with that. IMO it's certainly above video games.

Nothing wrong with that UNLESS those are your only "toys" and the only games you are allowed to play is help mama plant the garden.

barb0301
04-13-2008, 12:26 PM
Has anyone else noted that there is a 16 year old girl, named Sarah Jessop, listed as an "alleged parent", in the legal notice of suit?

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

And another "Sarah Barlow", birthdate "unknown"?

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:27 PM
one difference: It was a practice that was NOT forced upon the young girls.


perhaps. Personally I imagine there were quite a few young girls being handed off in marriage for much the same reasons that have always been around. Unexpected pregnancy, economic reasons, chance to improve social status and so on.

In a very highly developed society the age of the women getting married tends to run high, so I would imagine women getting married at the ages of 12 or so was not necessarily based on "love" or even the girls "choice"so much as it was things beyond her control.

adnoid
04-13-2008, 12:28 PM
Suzi, this paper is owned by the LDS church.

That fact does not automatically mean the reporting is inaccurate. It may be inaccurate, but it is a logical fallacy to assume that without any other facts.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 12:30 PM
glow i must ask for more detail on how you see this case. yes in the past it was legal to have sex with these young girls. as i said it was also legal to own others. you could buy sell or trade actual people in the past. how do you see the 2 subjects. i can try to avoid buzz words like slavery or child rape. i will try to use more descriptive terms. such as owning of other humans or sexual intercourse with a girl under legal age.

to me both are very similar. slavery has been around for thousands of years. many churches preached that slavery was ok. in some parts of the world slavery is still accepted. when slavery ended some slaves did not leave the homes of their masters. some stayed because they had no place to go and some stayed because they had a relationship with their owners.

if this case was about modern day slavery would you still use the same arguments?

as for who alleged the abuse of the other children... if my memory is correct it was stated in the court papers that the children interviewed at the compound stated it. that is why the judge allowed them to begin to take children other than the first 18 pregnant girls.

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:31 PM
Nothing wrong with that UNLESS those are your only "toys" and the only games you are allowed to play is help mama plant the garden.


Well as I mentioned in my post, there is mention of dolls. I point that out specifically because the mayor (?) was it? Seemed convinced that the state of Texas was introducing the FLDS children to dolls for the first time. As far as playing with garden toys, that seems fine to me. My granddaughter has an entire kitchen set in her bedroom that she plays with, including an oven and a tea set. I dont think that will hinder her in any way.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 12:32 PM
I am thinking this morning about how parents buy their kids toys and after a bit the kids are playing with the box the toys came in. My kids had more fun with the box their swingset came in than they ever did with the swingset. I've seen my son make roads in the dirt and use rocks as cars even though he had a ton of hotwheels. Kids have a great ability to make anything into a game. Whether the FLDS kids have the freedom to do that is another matter.

Two of my girls loved to take shoe boxes and make little houses for potato bugs. Now that I think of it, I wasted alot of money buying...toys. lol.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 12:33 PM
I was overwhelmed at the size of it too. I think Trent has the best shots I've seen that give a good idea as to what YFZ Ranch entails. All I could think of while looking at the pics were, you'd need alot of slave labor to run that place.Slave labor isn't far from the mark. Male children as young as 12 operating equipment they should never been in contact with and men who work their operations for no pay.


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=803901
Expert: FLDS Polygamist Group is A Classic Cult
April 11th, 2008 @ 7:08am
by Jim Cross/KTAR
Besides physical and sexual abuse, ``there have also been violations of child labor laws, repeatedly," Ross said. ``Children as young as 12 working in dangerous circumstances with machinery that they have no business operating."

Glow
04-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Has anyone else noted that there is a 16 year old girl, named Sarah Jessop, listed as an "alleged parent", in the legal notice of suit?

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

And another "Sarah Barlow", birthdate "unknown"?

Yes I did notice that barb. I wondered what it meant. There is so much speculating going on it is hard to say.

Either one of these girls is "the" Sarah which could easily be proven by a CAT scan of her rib cage for previous recent injury, and/or maybe the current pregnancy. OR the name Sarah is very common and neither is "the" Sarah. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 12:38 PM
perhaps. Personally I imagine there were quite a few young girls being handed off in marriage for much the same reasons that have always been around. Unexpected pregnancy, economic reasons, chance to improve social status and so on.

In a very highly developed society the age of the women getting married tends to run high, so I would imagine women getting married at the ages of 12 or so was not necessarily based on "love" or even the girls "choice"so much as it was things beyond her control.

In the "good old days" there was no welfare and many people got married for reasons of economic necessity and yes, many of these marriages were of underage girls. That was the case with my grandmother. She was an orphan and married my grandfather at 16, gave birth to my father at 17 and died in childbirth a few hours later.

Also in the "good old days" we called Black people "******s." I think we've become more enlightened since then.

Just because something was routine a hundred years ago certainly doesn't make it right by today's standards.

ETA a repeat of my unanswered question: You seem to be continually criticizing everything that has been happening at YFZ. What do YOU WANT the authorities to do? Look the other way? Let these people continue their child abuse unchallenged? What do YOU want?

Floh
04-13-2008, 12:42 PM
Well we KNOW this has to be a blatant lie since we were informed earlier in the week by the mainstream media, that the children were seeing toys for the "first time" only while in the hands of CPS.

The children's shoes still sit neatly, side by side where they last left them. Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows sit on the porch of their three-story, log cabin-like home.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html


By the way, I spent a little time checking that out and I was able to find several stories straight from the mouths of former FLDS women that they had toys, including dolls. But that isnt what we were told was it?

The "Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows" are there not as playthings, IMO. they are there because the children WORK: hard labour as soon as they are able. :furious: :furious: :furious:

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 12:43 PM
Slave labor isn't far from the mark. Male children as young as 12 operating equipment they should never been in contact with and men who work their operations for no pay.




An Arizona paper stated the age was 8! How scary is that!?

Pepper
04-13-2008, 12:44 PM
The "Child-sized shovels and miniature wheelbarrows" are there not as playthings, IMO. they are there because the children WORK: hard labour as soon as they are able. :furious: :furious: :furious: Exactly Floh, that's essentially what I said a few posts back.

Trino
04-13-2008, 12:45 PM
I noted the women are also charged. What are the implications of this?

Floh
04-13-2008, 12:47 PM
Glow, child-sized shovels and minature wheelbarrows ARE NOT TOYS! IMO, they are the instruments for training this little people to contribute WORK to the commune. Where are the toy trains, boats and cars? Where are the board games, the Spiderman capes, and skateboards?

You seem to be continually criticizing everything that has been happening at YFZ. What do YOU WANT the authorities to do? Look the other way? Let these people continue their child abuse unchallenged? What do YOU want?

What pepper said!

sherri79
04-13-2008, 12:50 PM
I noted the women are also charged. What are the implications of this? in most states a parent has a legal duty to protect a child from abuse if they know about it. failure to protect is a crime so the mothers would be charged. in this case i hope the mothers are found guilty and placed on supervised probation. conditions of probation could easily include education, parenting class, no contact with the abuser.

Floh
04-13-2008, 12:54 PM
Exactly Floh, that's essentially what I said a few posts back.

Sometimes i think i should work through a thead backwards to see i don't repeat what has already been said! :blowkiss:

Truly
04-13-2008, 01:06 PM
The El Dorado Success has published a public notice subpoena to all the parents of the children removed from the YFZ compound. There's a list of the children's names, and a list of the parents names at this link:

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html


Reposting Leila's link. These are not criminal charges. This is a civil suit. The parents now have the opportunity to respond. If the parents continue to refuse to identify their own children, I presume they will not be granted guardianship.




“Each suit requests (1) Emergency protection of a Child or Children, as the case may be, who are the subject(s) of these suits, (2) appointment as temporary managing conservator of the Child or Children, as the case may be, who are the subject(s) of these suits, and (3) appointment as permanent managing conservator of the Child or Children, as the case may be, who are the subject(s) of these suits.

Leila
04-13-2008, 01:11 PM
I'm beginning to get concerned that the case against FLDS could fall apart. Parents have a responsibility to feed, clothe, and shelter kids. Certainly, this was done. The kids have no black eyes or broken arms - no evidence of physical abuse. As for the "lost boys," yes, I believe they exist, but where are they? Why haven't they come forward?

The remaining legality is sexual abuse, but if the women and girls refuse to name anyone, which it seems like is happening, legally I think there may be a problem. "Spiritual" marriages, without testimony against the perps, just isn't going to stand up in court. Remember, these were the "chosen" from the FLDS community to live at the Texas compound.

After reading more about the 3 women who were absent when the raid took place, I'm beginning to sympathize with them, especially if they were gone only for a few days. Can you imagine the government taking your children and not allowing you access to them? One woman has two children, ages 9 and 12 in custody. If this happened on the "outside," can you imagine the outcry?

I'm just beginning to catching up with this thread today. On Friday night, a CNN reporter did a brief segment on the lost boys. He was in St. George, Utah and interviewed one lost boy, and showed others. Until recently, the lost boys were cast out and had no where to go. Someone has purchased an old house and is establishing a home for the boys who are exiled. It's a place where they'll always have food and shelter. The segment showed one of the lost boys laying tile in the kitchen as the house is renovated. In the interview, the boy said many of the lost boys have resorted to drugs and alcohol.

barb0301
04-13-2008, 01:15 PM
Yes I did notice that barb. I wondered what it meant. There is so much speculating going on it is hard to say.

Either one of these girls is "the" Sarah which could easily be proven by a CAT scan of her rib cage for previous recent injury, and/or maybe the current pregnancy. OR the name Sarah is very common and neither is "the" Sarah. I guess we will have to wait and see.

If one or both of these girls is indeed 16 AND a mother, and the father is proven to have been over 18 at the time the girl became pregnant, then a crime was committed. Statutory rape. Same with any of the other mothers listed.

Trino
04-13-2008, 01:21 PM
If one or both of these girls is indeed 16 AND a mother, and the father is proven to have been over 18 at the time the girl became pregnant, then a crime was committed. Statutory rape. Same with any of the other mothers listed.

Okay. This isn't a cult thing, but it is interesting that no one is going after the father of Jamie Lynn Spear's baby. He is an adult, over 18.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:21 PM
Not only are birth dates unknown, but a number of the children's last names are unknown as well. :(

Trino
04-13-2008, 01:24 PM
Not only are birth dates unknown, but a number of the children's last names are unknown as well. :(

There are probably records somewhere. Maybe last names are unknown because they are so young. There are also around 10 children whose mothers were away during the raid. Presumeably, there are also some mothers who did not accompany their kids.

Glow
04-13-2008, 01:27 PM
glow i must ask for more detail on how you see this case. yes in the past it was legal to have sex with these young girls. as i said it was also legal to own others. you could buy sell or trade actual people in the past. how do you see the 2 subjects. i can try to avoid buzz words like slavery or child rape. i will try to use more descriptive terms. such as owning of other humans or sexual intercourse with a girl under legal age.

to me both are very similar. slavery has been around for thousands of years. many churches preached that slavery was ok. in some parts of the world slavery is still accepted. when slavery ended some slaves did not leave the homes of their masters. some stayed because they had no place to go and some stayed because they had a relationship with their owners.

if this case was about modern day slavery would you still use the same arguments?

as for who alleged the abuse of the other children... if my memory is correct it was stated in the court papers that the children interviewed at the compound stated it. that is why the judge allowed them to begin to take children other than the first 18 pregnant girls.


sherri, I don't see slavery as a buzz term (even I am not that picky :crazy: ) I guess I am just growing weary of seeing people trying to make their point about what is wrong in this situation using such inflammatory words as "sex slaves" "child molesters" "perverts" and so on and so on. The case against Warren Jeff's and any who are joining him in action, is strong enough legally on its own. It doesn't need the raking in of all that is tragic in our mainstream society (by that I mean the sexual abuse of children which is rampant in our culture) to make it more valid. It is valid enough as what it is. I think the FDLS might even be able to reform from within now that Jeff's has been locked up and the lid has been blown off what they are allowing to be done to their young women.

I have read that it wasn't as bad as it is now before Warren Jeff's assumed leadership. It seems that this is an extremely fundamentalist group that has ended up with a religious zealot for a leader who like so many do, suffers from delusions of grandeur and more than likely mental illness, and he has taken them down his delusional path with him.

Its too bad that what it took to shed the light of day on things was what happened in Texas. But if the people of FLDS want to look at things this could serve as a fork in the road. A chance to put in a new leader. Maybe one of the men that Jeff's has banned in the last few years. There must have been a reason he considered them a threat. Maybe that reason was a good one.

Other than that, I am not really sure how you are comparing the FLDS to slavery. So since I am not sure, perhaps I should shut up for now and let you tell me.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:27 PM
http://lakeexpo.com/articles/2008/04/13/top_news/10.txt

FORT WORTH, Texas - American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

barb0301
04-13-2008, 01:29 PM
Okay. This isn't a cult thing, but it is interesting that no one is going after the father of Jamie Lynn Spear's baby. He is an adult, over 18.

Send 'em to TX :)

Trino
04-13-2008, 01:31 PM
http://lakeexpo.com/articles/2008/04/13/top_news/10.txt

FORT WORTH, Texas - American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

No surprise here. It's been known for years that government contracts are unmonitored. I'm sure the government will justify this by saying there was no record of any judgment against them, which, of course, is true. Then, of course, Orin Hatch appears to be a friend of the right people.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 01:32 PM
An Arizona paper stated the age was 8! How scary is that!?Appalling.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:36 PM
http://lakeexpo.com/articles/2008/04/13/top_news/10.txt

FORT WORTH, Texas - American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect that is now the focus of a massive child abuse investigation in West Texas, with a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

Well unless Wayman had reported his vehicle stolen, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And can I assume he was never charged with aiding a fugitive on the run? And the government is still awarding him contracts? What's wrong with this picture?

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:38 PM
Well unless Wayman had reported his vehicle stolen, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And can I assume he was never charged with aiding a fugitive on the run? And the government is still awarding him contracts? What's wrong with this picture?

LOL Suzi ... as we completely agree upon ... following the money!

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:40 PM
golfmom, from your link. Who can afford that???:

Under Jeffs' direction, Wisan said, sect households are required to tithe at least 10 percent of their gross income to the church, plus an extra $1,000 a month.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:41 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5696448.html

The state says it now has evidence that every child was either abused or at imminent risk of abuse.

Sect lawyers have filed pleadings claiming the comprehensive searches of the 1,700-acre compound violated First and Fourth Amendment protections as well as the Texas Constitution.

"The FLDS and its congregants enjoy the right under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution to exercise their religion and to assemble unhampered by government intrusion," wrote Cynthia Orr, complaining that the searches were intrusive, overly broad and were misrepresented to the judge who approved them.

But it's unlikely Orr's objections will prevail, one expert said.

"There are religious liberties issues here, but none that a judge is likely to take seriously: Laws about polygamy and underage sex apply to everyone. There is no right to an exemption for a religious group," said Douglas Laycock, a professor emeritus at the UT law school.

The gravity and breadth of the allegations make it likely the state will get some leeway in presenting its case, he said.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:45 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5696448.html

The state says it now has evidence that every child was either abused or at imminent risk of abuse.



And religious liberties stop the moment a crime is commited. I can't imagine a liberal judge even at a Supreme Court level disputing that.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:45 PM
golfmom, from your link. Who can afford that???:

Under Jeffs' direction, Wisan said, sect households are required to tithe at least 10 percent of their gross income to the church, plus an extra $1,000 a month.

It makes me laugh considering all the huge complaints by members whining about the $100 monthly payment to the UEP Fund.

BhamMama
04-13-2008, 01:45 PM
Re: toys and machinery.

Y'all don't be visiting us during harvest then. You'll see a 9 yo who knows how to use a tractor, a hoe, a hay rake and likes it. You'll also note his hand 'tools' are his size not adult sized. You'd see all 12 of us, ages 63 to 9 years outside in the heat of August hand picking muscadines for up to 9 hours a day until they are all harvested. And until they invent a machine that can tell the difference between ripe and unripe grapes and won't bruise the fruits, costing us money, you'll see us out there doing it again this year...same as it's been done always.

Suppose I shouldn't have them doing eggs, cutting veggies for canning, pulling weeds, mucking stalls or milking the goats either.

Guess I'm a mean old child laborer user too. Although I never ask them to do anything I aint doing and do much of it myself rather than make them do it, they know how and they are expected to help. It's not a choice, it's a duty. Iffen they like to eat that is since we make most of our money for things like food, heat, water etc off of our crops.

I don't buy my kids play dough, character toys, many battery operated toys, barbies, brats, r rated movies, games that show killing as sport..oh and they don't watch tv...I'm horrible!

Seriously, nothing wrong with the whole family having farm chores to do. It happens all across the world every single day. Also nothing wrong with not buying into the 'mainstream' world that store bought toys are a must need item.

I think some of it is becoming sensationalized now.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:46 PM
LOL Suzi ... as we completely agree upon ... following the money!

Sheesh golfmom, this seems to be the fact with a couple of cases you and I discuss at WS. It's all about the money.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 01:48 PM
It makes me laugh considering all the huge complaints by members whining about the $100 monthly payment to the UEP Fund.

Or whining about paying the state property tax on the property the courts awarded to the in the UEP lawsuit.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:52 PM
Or whining about paying the state property tax on the property the courts awarded to the in the UEP lawsuit.

I thought Jeffs take on it was interesting. He said something along the lines that his followers were NOT allowed to sign documents breaking up the property of the fund. He didn't want property that was consecrated to God to be taken by members. In other words, you're not allowed to own your own property because then God can't evict you. :bang:

golfmom
04-13-2008, 01:53 PM
Sheesh golfmom, this seems to be the fact with a couple of cases you and I discuss at WS. It's all about the money.


I wish we could get Texas to round up some groups in Detroit.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:00 PM
SNIP I think the FDLS might even be able to reform from within now that Jeff's has been locked up and the lid has been blown off what they are allowing to be done to their young women.

I have read that it wasn't as bad as it is now before Warren Jeff's assumed leadership. It seems that this is an extremely fundamentalist group that has ended up with a religious zealot for a leader who like so many do, suffers from delusions of grandeur and more than likely mental illness, and he has taken them down his delusional path with him.

I'm not sure it can reform from within Glow. Carolyn Jessop who fled the flds was married to the leader Merrill Jessop who runs the Tx compound. She more than most knows what this man is capable of.

I'm trying to find the court documents that were presented in Warren Jeff's trial that I read last night. It was clear from his conversations with members of this very same compound that Warren Jeffs was still in command.

He directed Merrill Jessop to be in charge. He directed the people he talked with to ensure that one family within the compound were to exchange places with another family that was in another location out of state. He was still calling the shots. These people, despite his incarceration still believe he is the prophet, contrary to his words stating that he was not. Believe it or not, one or two of the males he spoke to actually thought his words about not being the prophet were a "test" of their loyalty.

I also read where several of the children believed Jeffs was the president of the U.S. because he had held himself out to be so.

So colour me skeptical that things will change from within. Not as long as his "faithful" and "loyal" subjects are in charge of things. Not as long as delusional and power hungry people reach out to "control" those they deem weaker than themselves.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:00 PM
I thought Jeffs take on it was interesting. He said something along the lines that his followers were NOT allowed to sign documents breaking up the property of the fund. He didn't want property that was consecrated to God to be taken by members. In other words, you're not allowed to own your own property because then God can't evict you. :bang:

Which is ironic since Jeffs and other "mortals" owned the property. Thank goodness quite a few followers didn't buy that either and fought back. That was really the first that I can recall where the discontent within the FLDS became public. Another irony is that and not the other illegal activities, was the final straw for many followers.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:02 PM
Here's the quote from Jeffs regarding the trust:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16380/judge-reforms-flds-trust

However, concern remains that FLDS faithful will continue to resist any changes. Jeffs has issued an edict to his followers, telling them to “say nothing, do nothing, sign nothing” when it comes to UEP Trust reforms.

A new edict reportedly issued by Jeffs recently could also hurt reformation efforts.

“Do not sign your name to any document for property that has already been consecrated to God,” Jeffs is reported to have said to his followers recently.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:05 PM
I thought Jeffs take on it was interesting. He said something along the lines that his followers were NOT allowed to sign documents breaking up the property of the fund. He didn't want property that was consecrated to God to be taken by members. In other words, you're not allowed to own your own property because then God can't evict you. :bang:Ahh, but their "god" Warren Jeffs and his henchmen could evict you. Several people had purchased their land, built their homes and then when a conflict arose about whether the fund should have a panel of people administering it or one person, namely Jeffs, those who were for the panel lost. As soon as that happened these people were evicted. They banded together and went to court and it cost them a LOT of money. In the end the sect ignored any rulings and bulldozed homes and rebuilt upon the land.

Now that the fund is being administered by the state, and a former member of the Flds named Wisan has the authority to administer it and check on properties, he is harassed by the local LE and by sect members.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:05 PM
Which is ironic since Jeffs and other "mortals" owned the property. Thank goodness quite a few followers didn't buy that either and fought back. That was really the first that I can recall where the discontent within the FLDS became public. Another irony is that and not the other illegal activities, was the final straw for many followers.

I absolutely believe that there has been a backlash to Jeffs leadership. His kicking out 20+ men and reassigning their wives and children really opened a lot of eyes. I think he was splintering the group and moving the most loyal to Texas and abandoning Colorado City. If everything went according to plan, they would have woken up one morning with NOTHING.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:07 PM
The money trail.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=803901
Expert: FLDS Polygamist Group is A Classic Cult
April 11th, 2008 @ 7:08am
by Jim Cross/KTAR

``Seventy percent of the people in Colorado City were on food stamps, 40 percent of the women were receiving assistance through a WIC (women's and children ) fund."

The group also got money ``through state funds, through federal funds which were accumulated for infrastructure within their township."

``When they began to basically clamp down on this group for its illegal activities, it had accumulated assets in excess of $200-million dollars," he said. ``So this was a group that grew very rich, very powerful, often through taxpayers' money."

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:10 PM
From that same link: As soon as children reach puberty, Ross says, ``they become so much like a commodity that has literally been passed from one community to another community... The child can be married off, her husband can take her as so much property. She is obliged to obey him and submit to him, even if he's violent, even if he's abusive."

The cult expert says, ``Out of all the groups called cults in North American that I've dealt with, some of the most horrific complaints of sexual and physican abuse have come from these polygamist groups."

He said the children taken from such groups ``are going to need counseling, they're going to need help," adding, ``The youngest children will probably do the best because they've had the least time in the group."

philamena
04-13-2008, 02:10 PM
sherri, I don't see slavery as a buzz term (even I am not that picky :crazy: )
SNIP
I guess I am just growing weary of seeing people trying to make their point about what is wrong in this situation using such inflammatory words as "sex slaves" "child molesters" "perverts" and so on and so on. The case against Warren

Hi Glow, ;)
Good post and I agree with many of your thoughts.
Maybe I can explain where some of the references to child molesters and sex slaves is coming from.
Now this is my opinion and also what I've learned from reading about this case in the news, on blogs, etc.

I think a lot of people were brought to a jolt by the compounds latest events because of the association with Warren Jeffs. Toss into the mix an anonymous phone call from a supposed 16 yr old about alleged abuse, underage marriages and young girls having babies.

If young girls raised in the compound are forced to marry and have sex at the onset of puberty, lets say between 12-14 years old, I have to agree- that is sexual abuse, rape or whatever you want to call it. Any child under the legal age of 16 is raped if she's forced to have sex.

If these girls are made to had sex with their old husbands, and that tradition has been followed for years and years, that makes some people consider this religion a sect. A sect is closed off to outsiders, brainwashing is used...exactly what we're being told happens in the compound.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:10 PM
Ahh, but their "god" Warren Jeffs and his henchmen could evict you. Several people had purchased their land, built their homes and then when a conflict arose about whether the fund should have a panel of people administering it or one person, namely Jeffs, those who were for the panel lost. As soon as that happened these people were evicted. They banded together and went to court and it cost them a LOT of money. In the end the sect ignored any rulings and bulldozed homes and rebuilt upon the land.

Now that the fund is being administered by the state, and a former member of the Flds named Wisan has the authority to administer it and check on properties, he is harassed by the local LE and by sect members.

Molly, you made me think of another point. I would BET that the majority of the heavy equipment that built the complex in Eldorado was stolen from EUP trust. I read an article a while back on how assets kept disappearing.

Leila
04-13-2008, 02:11 PM
Has anyone else noted that there is a 16 year old girl, named Sarah Jessop, listed as an "alleged parent", in the legal notice of suit?

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

And another "Sarah Barlow", birthdate "unknown"?

I noted those names in the list of names on the subpoena.

THIS IS IMPORTANT! Last week one of the Salt Lake City newspapers, either the Salt Lake City Tribune or the Deseret News had a story in which they stated that it was a case of mistaken identity in regard to Dale Evans Barlow being the husband of the 16-year-old. They quoted Joni Holm as saying that she knows WHO THE 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL is that made the call to authorities, and she knows who the girl's husband is. She said it's Barlow, but not Dale Evans Barlow, but close. The newspaper had a disclaimer that it's their policy not to publish the names of victims, therefore they would not name the 16-year-old, and declined to name her husband - obviously waiting for the authorities to name him.

I think we've got to assume that someone has contacted the Texas authorities by now and given them the correct information as to who the 16-year-old is and the correct name of her husband.

BACKGROUND: Joni Holm is LDS, married to a man who escaped from the FLDS many years ago. About four or five years ago, they became involved when they took in two girls, one of whom was the husband's much younger 15-year-old sister, and her 15-year-old friend, who escaped from the FLDS. Of the two girls, one returned to the FLDS and the other is 19 and living on her own now in Salt Lake City. Joni Holms and her husband (can't remember his name), who live in Salt Lake City, continue to be foster parents and take in other children who escape the FLDS. They've become advocates of the escaped children.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:16 PM
WOMEN OF THE FLDS SPEAK OUT:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4610290&page=1
"He is their God. He's told these people, 'I am Jesus Christ,'" said former church member Flora Jeffs, speaking about Warren Jeffs' control.

He allowed no television, radio or Internet access. Even laughter was forbidden. "He said, 'No children's books with animals doing people things. Nature is OK. Disney is not,'" said former member Lori Chatwin, who left the group four years ago.

However, he did allow iPods, which people could use to listen to hours of his sermons, and his control extended beyond what people could read, see and wear. He also controlled who married whom and, he claimed, who got to go to heaven. Women who don't like the rules are told to "keep sweet."


SAME LINK:
"Keep sweet, it's exactly that. No matter what, it's a matter of life and death. You don't ask why. You don't do anything except do what you're told," said former member Pam Black, who was married as a teenager while she was in the sect.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:18 PM
Molly, you made me think of another point. I would BET that the majority of the heavy equipment that built the complex in Eldorado was stolen from EUP trust. I read an article a while back on how assets kept disappearing.We might have read the same article!! In the one I read Wisan said that the equipment and other things like grain elevators were dismantled and no one did a thing to stop it.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:18 PM
This is from when the mayor was arrested in 2006:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy469.html

Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard has asked the Justice Department to investigate the force for civil rights violations after one officer admitted taking no action on numerous sex abuse cases. And the deputies are under fire for failing to protect assets of the property trust or answer questions during depositions related to an investigation of missing property.

Johnson, who is the registered agent for the Four Square Mill in Colorado City, also clammed up when asked during a February deposition if he knew anything about a grain elevator taken from the mill. His response: "As far as my own knowledge of our dear nation of the United States of America, I have as much right to remain silent as you do to speak, and so I choose to remain silent."

The grain elevator turned up back at the mill earlier this month.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:19 PM
I learn something new everyday. I was under the impression that the followers were being awarded ownership of their land and homes. It appears though, that they are merely glorified renters. I haven't read the contract, but it sounds scary to me too. I don't know if I would sign it and pay the fee considering the way the contract appears to have been written.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8835428
"It is scary for us poor folks who don't understand law," said Marvin Wyler, Chatwin's father. "There are a lot of things written in that thing that are scary, like if you don't clean up your yard, you can be kicked off your property. It sounds kind of mean."
Wisan is prepared to battle it out and points out he has the backing of 3rd District Judge Denise Lindberg.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:20 PM
I forgot to put this in from the article I previously reference:

Two other men - James Allred and Deputy Town Marshal Mica Barlow - are being held in an Arizona jail because of their refusal to testify before a state grand jury.

Glow
04-13-2008, 02:22 PM
In the "good old days" there was no welfare and many people got married for reasons of economic necessity and yes, many of these marriages were of underage girls. That was the case with my grandmother. She was an orphan and married my grandfather at 16, gave birth to my father at 17 and died in childbirth a few hours later.

Also in the "good old days" we called Black people "******s." I think we've become more enlightened since then.

Just because something was routine a hundred years ago certainly doesn't make it right by today's standards.

ETA a repeat of my unanswered question: You seem to be continually criticizing everything that has been happening at YFZ. What do YOU WANT the authorities to do? Look the other way? Let these people continue their child abuse unchallenged? What do YOU want?

hi pepper,

Well as far as the good old days, ideally, I would hope that we would bring forward with us the best and leave behind the worst. That would seem to be the best we could hope for. As for what I am posting here about what has happened at YFZ. Yes, I am watching with a critical eye. I think everyone should. But as far as my "criticizing" the way things have been handled, that is just me expressing my views and I don't expect others to necessarily share them with me. My views of the situation is not a criticism of the views of my fellow posters here. My criticisms remain about what is actually being done by the government and how that affects peoples civil rights now and more importantly what legal precedents it sets for the future. In other words, if we back the government fully when it violates the rights of some fringe citizens that we don't like and the governments wishes are carried out unimpeded, then a precedent has been set. Next time the government decides to act, it might be against a group or cause that is dear to us, but you know what? That wont be the time to speak up, the precedent has already been set. That is why I am watching this so closely. This has all the necessary components that are needed when you subtly turn the power of the people over to the power of the government. But enough political science.....you asked me what I thought should happen.

I would have liked to have seen this all be slowed down and taken step by step. Except for the money angle. I think all the government child support should have been stopped immediately. As far as other business contracts they have with the state and federal government I think they should have been informed that they were in peril of losing those monies too. That would have brought the negotiators to the table for sure if the beast couldn't be "bled" anymore. That would have really rattled the cages of the leaders of the compound. And they wouldn't have had any crys of religious oppression to utter that would have found a sympathetic ear. Unlike now, people wouldn't have been rallying in sympathy because their women and children had been taken in a raid. It would have kept the issue focused on what it is really about for THEM. That being the money. I know their religious beliefs matter too, but I am talking about starting with a point they will understand quickly and THEN working from that point. If there could have been determined that there was a "sarah" who was 16 then she should have been offered a safe way out. The small children who were not in danger of being married off as child brides should have been left in their homes during a vigilant and ongoing cooperative effort between the state and the YFZ leaders to negotiate. They want money, the state wants the law obeyed. That seems doable. Much change can happen at a negotiating table. Usually more than can happen by flexing governmental muscle.

As for what would I like to see happen now? I would like to see the state take a soft approach to this situation evens if it means bending its own protocols. I think it is great that the state is willing to give them the color socks they want to wear. But will the state hold off on vaccinating all of these children before it sends them off into foster care ? I doubt it. And there goes another parental right, as well as a child's right. Poof.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:23 PM
FORMER FLDS WOMEN SPEAK OUT:

LAURIE ALLEN'S documentary on polygamy was produced in2007 and is called "Banking on Heaven." "http://bankingonheaven.com/

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=8150079&nav=menu102_2

A woman who grew up in a polygamist sect is sharing her story. She says polygamy is like living the life of a slave. Laurie Allen was born into a life of polygamy.

By the time she was a teenager she had been orphaned, kidnapped twice and had bounced around, living with dozens of families in Central America.
When she was 16, she made her first escape but says it took 18 years to finally break away from the kind of life she now loathes.

"It's a form of slavery. They rape your mind then they rape your body. Then they call you a consenting adult," she said.

Laurie Allen was 16-years-old the first time she tried to leave. "I planned this escape but still, as much as I was abused I kept going back, and kept going back to the cult." All we did was work and this was what happens in polygamy. The women are just working to build their husband's kingdom, or their father's kingdom, whatever man owns you basically, because it's just a form of slavery," she said.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Suzi, my understanding was that there is to be a transitional period. However, if you think I trust the trust ... well, you know me well enough, I don't.

The UEP’s reformation plan would ultimately privatize property in Hildale, Colorado City and the FLDS Church’s Canadian enclave in Bountiful, British Columbia. It would also create a number of “spendthrift” trusts that place the UEP’s assets in the control of a trustee, until the recipients are deemed able to control the money or property themselves.

Independent of religious doctrine, the new UEP Trust would not inquire about whether anyone living on its land is practicing polygamy. That way, the UEP is not seen as advocating any illegal activity. What the Heck is this? A "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy?

ETA: I forgot the link for you: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16380/judge-reforms-flds-trust

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Hi Glow, ;)
Good post and I agree with many of your thoughts.
Maybe I can explain where some of the references to child molesters and sex slaves is coming from.
Now this is my opinion and also what I've learned from reading about this case in the news, on blogs, etc.

I think a lot of people were brought to a jolt by the compounds latest events because of the association with Warren Jeffs. Toss into the mix an anonymous phone call from a supposed 16 yr old about alleged abuse, underage marriages and young girls having babies.

If young girls raised in the compound are forced to marry and have sex at the onset of puberty, lets say between 12-14 years old, I have to agree- that is sexual abuse, rape or whatever you want to call it. Any child under the legal age of 16 is raped if she's forced to have sex.

If these girls are made to had sex with their old husbands, and that tradition has been followed for years and years, that makes some people consider this religion a sect. A sect is closed off to outsiders, brainwashing is used...exactly what we're being told happens in the compound.Right and toss in the fact that many of these "men" are an uncle or other close relative.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:27 PM
Glow, you've outlined exactly what Arizona has done with the sect ... and what did that accomplish, absolutely NOTHING, other than drive them out of that state and into the arms of Texas.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:29 PM
"Leaving the small children in the home," those that were not underaged pregnant girls would have been a mistake IMO. This sect has been practicing a policy of hiding children and spiriting them out of country to Mexico, Canada or to other states. So if the CPS needed to contact those children and they weren't there all of a sudden then just what recourse would they have to be able to check on their welfare? Especially if the children had no ages or names documented? CPS did what they should have done. Now the process will proceed and we will see what happens.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:30 PM
"Leaving the small children in the home," those that were not underaged pregnant girls would have been a mistake IMO. This sect has been practicing a policy of hiding children and spiriting them out of country to Mexico, Canada or to other states. So if the CPS needed to contact those children and they weren't there all of a sudden then just what recourse would they have to be able to check on their welfare? Especially if the children had no ages or names documented? CPS did what they should have done. Now the process will proceed and we will see what happens.

Yep, Utah tried that too and all the members scattered and the warrants expired.

Glow
04-13-2008, 02:31 PM
i think this is more a matter of perception. laura ingalls had toys but would be shocked and probably scared to see modern toys. i think the earlier story talked about the children having never seen crayons. the difference between what my kids use as toys and what these children have is a culture issue not a abuse issue.

I agreee with you sherri. In addition to the "crayons" statement there was an article that stated that the children were given toys and dolls and some looked like they had never seen them before. It was just the "spin" that I noticed. This story is being "spun" both ways. Not just one way.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:32 PM
FORMER FLDS WOMEN SPEAK OUT:

CAROLYN JESSOP
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=559132&in_page_id=1879

No one knows better than I do what the horrifying reality of life was like at the Yearning for Zion ranch near Eldorado, south of Dallas - I was born into the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (FLDS).
Only I was lucky enough to escape. I came from six generations of polygamists who formed the 10,000-strong FLDS, as we called it.
So, during the next 15 years, I bore my husband, Merril, who had six other wives, no fewer than eight children - five boys and three girls.


I had no alternative than to obey his demands - including treating him like a god.

If I refused, or failed in my tasks, I was punished. My every move was watched, and I was never allowed my own money. I knew I was being controlled and it frightened me.

My sister (also a member of the FLDS) and I used to have a grim joke: "Don't drink the punch" - a reference to the mass suicide of 900 members of the cult The People's Temple by drinking a poison punch under the orders of the Rev Jim Jones in Guyana in 1978. We were terrified it might happen to us.

Indeed, ever since Jeffs inherited the leadership of our cult from his father in 2002, he'd been preaching that he was Jesus Christ incarnate. He spoke about moving his followers to what he called the "Centre Place. My husband was close to Jeffs, who was rumoured to have 180 wives, and there was every chance that he, too - together with me and his other six wives and 54 children - would be among the first to be taken to the Centre Place, wherever it was.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:34 PM
CAROLYN JESSOP continued:
"Once I complained to Jeffs about my husband's treatment. Jeffs told me I was foolish. I never complained again, even though I wasn't allowed to kiss or cuddle my children because the cult forbade it.

I also wasn't able to protect them from Jeffs, who'd started marrying off younger girls to sect members.

My 12-year-old daughter, Betty, was once kept a virtual prisoner in his house for three days. I was never sure what happened to her there."
--------------

And this is why I doubt that the FLDS will change from within:

"FLDS has also created many other Warren Jeffs - men intoxicated with power, determined to dominate their many wives and children."

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:39 PM
CAROLYN JESSOP:
"But even back then I began to notice strange things - such as the fact many women wore dark glasses. It wasn't long before I realised it was because they had black eyes from being beaten by their husbands."

"Sex was the only currency I had to spend in my marriage - every polygamist wife knows that. A woman who possesses a high sex status with her husband has more power over his other wives. If she becomes unattractive to him, she is on dangerous ground - usually winding up as a slave to the dominant wife.

So although I hated Merril touching me, I knew I had to make myself attractive to him, even though there was no chemistry between us and our sex life was always perfunctory. Nevertheless, I did bear him eight children - all of whom were regularly beaten by their father.

The only way I could stop Merril beating my children was to have sex with him."

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:40 PM
Molly, there's a bunch of men who have been having visions that God told them that they're the ones that really supposed to be in control.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:41 PM
CAROLYN JESSOP:

I packed my eight children into our van and drove away from the compound, even though my 12-year-old Betty was screaming: "Mother, you're stealing us. Uncle Warren will come and get us. We don't belong to you, we belong to the prophet."

After five hours on the road, we arrived in Salt Lake City and went into hiding. Within hours, Merril was hunting me down like prey, but I didn't care. I would rather be dead than live that way another minute.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Molly, there's a bunch of men who have been having visions that God told them that they're the ones that really supposed to be in control.David Koresh to name one. It's disgusting that when these people create their vision of heaven that they set themselves up as God and then it's always the women and children who bear the brunt of their brutality and their delusions.

Trino
04-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Molly, there's a bunch of men who have been having visions that God told them that they're the ones that really supposed to be in control.

And, sometimes I think it's mainstream (LOL).

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:46 PM
There are two other books out that provide insights into the FLDS:


Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. "It probes American polygamous communities and their leaders.

"The Secret Lives of Saints" by Daphne Bramham a veteran Vancouver Journalist. "Her book is the first to examine the web of connections between fundamentalist Mormons in Canada and the U.S. And it is certainly the first to dig so deeply into the history of polygamy in Canada -- including the movement's Alberta origins." "It is an exhaustive account of the founding and
flourishing of the breakaway Mormon sect in Bountiful, just outside Creston, B.C."

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:46 PM
Yep, Utah tried that too and all the members scattered and the warrants expired.

With the Kingston clan. Mark should be ashamed to even offer up an excuse for that one.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 02:46 PM
Hi Trino,

There may be no "lost boys" at the Texas compound since here we have the the "cream of the crop" of Jeff's followers. The young men here in Texas may be the elite ones who are being trained to take over as the next generation. I would think the ones that would comprise the role of "lost boys" would be the ones that live where there is already a large male population as well as teenage boys who are percieved as difficult or rebellious.

I am concerned also as to why it is "ok" to hold the children of those 3 mothers without allowing even so much as a phone call. You are right that if this were to happen in mainstream America, there would be a huge outcry. And by the way? There is an outcry. You just have to go outside the heavily edited mainstream media to find it




So allowing them to go back to there compound, and carry on there lives. while being raped/ and molested daily is ok? These kids are not being detained because they are doing something wrong, they are in protective custody, to prevent the males from revictimizing them.

The woman are free to go at anytime. And as far as the threee woman who claim that they can't see there kids. That is a lie, can't remember where I saw it, but I know it was a proven lie.

Glow
04-13-2008, 02:50 PM
Glow, you've outlined exactly what Arizona has done with the sect ... and what did that accomplish, absolutely NOTHING, other than drive them out of that state and into the arms of Texas.

They took away all of their government money?

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:50 PM
Whew, this is a long thread. Probably about time for a new one.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 02:50 PM
All is not exactly good among the mothers and children. AND, no they, according to the Deseret News, have not all been allowed contact.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

"... 25 young girls have mothers who are staying in another shelter, yet Child Protective Services workers have refused to even let them pass notes to each other."

"One small girl, whose mother was not at the ranch during the raid and has not been allowed to join her children in the shelter, cries out for her mother daily."

"Kathleen believes some of the child welfare workers have used frightening tactics when interviewing the children. She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."


The three mothers where were they!? As far as I have been told, they were in utah, and gave there children up for the texas compound. And now Are coming back to claim them.

Please watch what you beleive in the media. The media is ALWASY going to give biased views. And try to continue to stir the pot up.

The woman I have talked to that works close to the case, is telling me that the mothers, and children are doing fine, they are seeing one another, and are actually coming up to talk to the social workers, and reveal information.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 02:52 PM
They took away all of their government money?

Yes, they cracked down on government money and took over the church's trust which controlled all finances, property and businesses.

AZ was ramping up to be a real nuisance to the sect ... even though they couldn't go after polygamy.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 02:54 PM
How about the story from the Deseret News that claims a reporters overheard this (see above):

She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again."

And, what about the story (again the Deseret News) that says a child cries for her mother WHO WAS NOT AT THE RANCH DURING THE RAID? This appears to be supported by the Deseret News reporters who have been there.

Note: many posters are thanking the Deseret News for the info. I think the Deseret News can be supported as accurrate.

Desert news is a Utah paper if I am correct. All utah papers are swayed in the favor of the FDLS. So they will write/printe anything that brings negativity on the cps works. They fully support the FDLS and will write carp about cps even if it is lies.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 02:55 PM
I love the Rickross site. So much information there. For anyone reading this thread, here is a link and a good starting point for info on Polygamist groups in North America.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 02:55 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/americas-most-wanted-the-man-with-eighty-wives-408507.html
"the fundamentalists are wary of each other too. Jeff has infected his flock with a culture of snitching. An air of mistrust pervades."

"This came to its peak when he enlisted a group of teenage boys to spy for him. Known as the Sons of Helaman, they would come knocking on a fictitious pretext, invite themselves in and report back to Jeffs any infractions of his myriad laws. His people were terrified. They still are, even though the Sons have since been disbanded. The know that the consequences of a violation are often devastating and that exile has done nothing to dim Jeff's taste for punishment."

Glow
04-13-2008, 02:57 PM
So allowing them to go back to there compound, and carry on there lives. while being raped/ and molested daily is ok? These kids are not being detained because they are doing something wrong, they are in protective custody, to prevent the males from revictimizing them.

The woman are free to go at anytime. And as far as the threee woman who claim that they can't see there kids. That is a lie, can't remember where I saw it, but I know it was a proven lie.


Hi Ladybass, The children under the age of 13 or to be more specific, the non menstruating girls were not being raped or molested daily.

A woman who's small child who is in the hands of strangers, in a strange enviroment and being held there, is NOT free at all. Her choices and options are limited thus nullifying the word "free"

As for the 3 women. So far we cant prove or disprove what they are saying. We dont have enough information. But if they are telling the truth then that will probably come out in the next day or so.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:01 PM
The girls aren't the only ones being abused either.

http://www.independent.co/uk/news/world/americas/americas-most-wanted-theman-witheight-wives-408507.html


"Warren Jeff's half brother Ward shook with grief when he descxribed how his children had suffered at Warren's hands. He believes at least four of them were raped by Wrren- all of them boys around five or six years old, all sodomised routinely in the lavatories at the school where Warren taught and the boys were his students.

For years the boys said nothing. Then the first victim, Clayen, revaled the abuse under hypnosis. Still, it was only after Clayne's suicide in 2001 thqt his two brothers Brent and Brandon came forward.

"He told me when he was doing it, "This is God's will, and this is your way to become a man," said Brent, 23, sitting beside his father on the sofa. Brent has filed a civil case against his uncle, but it is yet to become a criminal case. "I just want to expose him for who he is, however I can."


"He was known for cruel public canings" and "Ross Chatwin told me that in his last sermon Warren said "Stand up if you would die for me" and a thousand people got up.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 03:02 PM
I believe the authorities are handling the situation in the best way they can. I'm certainly not going to second guess them. They have way more information than any of us. They are coping with a very huge problem, and I'm sure it won't be pleasant for everyone. There will be some that will return to the cult. I only hope that when it's over some of the women and children will find freedom and a new way of life that has been denied them since birth.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 03:03 PM
Desert news is a Utah paper if I am correct. All utah papers are swayed in the favor of the FDLS. So they will write/printe anything that brings negativity on the cps works. They fully support the FDLS and will write carp about cps even if it is lies.

That's not true at all. Some local media here is slanted to a point towards the LDS church. Not the FLDS church. There is a difference. When there is any reporting regarding CPS, it's in regards to the fact that for many years CPS in Utah did a horrible job at protecting the children in this state. They ignored real CPS cases and went after the trumped up ones. A judge eventually had to step in and force them to clean up their act.

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:03 PM
Yes, they cracked down on government money and took over the church's trust which controlled all finances, property and businesses.

AZ was ramping up to be a real nuisance to the sect ... even though they couldn't go after polygamy.

well my idea was to bring them to the negotiating table and not just crack down on but completely dry up the money. As well as keep an ongoing vigliant eye on the underage thing as in NOT tolerating it at all.

Do you have a link for the Arizona "plan" ?

I guess we could by that same token then call this situation now in Texas the "Short Creek plan"

not only did that not work, it sent things backwards according to Carolyn Jessup...

The distinct pioneer-style dresses, worn over long underwear year-round and sewn by the women, became part of the dress code after the 1953 raid as each generation added more restrictions, said Jessop, who left the community five years ago.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-04-07-1190589243_x.htm

Truly
04-13-2008, 03:03 PM
My criticisms remain about what is actually being done by the government and how that affects peoples civil rights now and more importantly what legal precedents it sets for the future. In other words, if we back the government fully when it violates the rights of some fringe citizens that we don't like and the governments wishes are carried out unimpeded, then a precedent has been set.



The big bad gubmint is not violating anyone's rights. The State of Texas is investigating allegations of Child Sexual Assault, which is a crime. They are setting no new precedents here. You seem to view this crime as just some tiny annoying insect buzzwording around the room, but there are many of us here who view Child Sexual Assault as one of the worst crimes that can be committed.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:04 PM
Hi Ladybass, The children under the age of 13 or to be more specific, the non menstruating girls were not being raped or molested daily.

A woman who's small child who is in the hands of strangers, in a strange enviroment and being held there, is NOT free at all. Her choices and options are limited thus nullifying the word "free"

As for the 3 women. So far we cant prove or disprove what they are saying. We dont have enough information. But if they are telling the truth then that will probably come out in the next day or so.There have been reports that children under the age of six were routinely abused. That word "abuse" could mean many things. Mental, physical or sexual. The allegations are not limited to those girls under 13 or non-menstruating. There are boys who were removed as well as girls.

There is no way that I or anyone else on this board can say they were subjected to this daily no more than you can say they weren't. Until its proved in court.

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:07 PM
The girls aren't the only ones being abused either.

http://www.independent.co/uk/news/world/americas/americas-most-wanted-theman-witheight-wives-408507.html


"Warren Jeff's half brother Ward shook with grief when he descxribed how his children had suffered at Warren's hands. He believes at least four of them were raped by Wrren- all of them boys around five or six years old, all sodomised routinely in the lavatories at the school where Warren taught and the boys were his students.

For years the boys said nothing. Then the first victim, Clayen, revaled the abuse under hypnosis. Still, it was only after Clayne's suicide in 2001 thqt his two brothers Brent and Brandon came forward.

"He told me when he was doing it, "This is God's will, and this is your way to become a man," said Brent, 23, sitting beside his father on the sofa. Brent has filed a civil case against his uncle, but it is yet to become a criminal case. "I just want to expose him for who he is, however I can."


"He was known for cruel public canings" and "Ross Chatwin told me that in his last sermon Warren said "Stand up if you would die for me" and a thousand people got up.

notice that it says it was Warren abusing them? Im sure if they are going to this much trouble to talk about it openly they would mention others if there were others.

We have already decided that Warren Jeffs is a bad dude though, havent we?

I think it would be interesting to look at the number of child molestations that occur with children in the hands of CPS. I am assuming that is public record...I just havent looked for it. I bet that rate would shock us too.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 03:08 PM
See embedded.



Hi Ladybass, The children under the age of 13 or to be more specific, the non menstruating girls were not being raped or molested daily. How do you know that? I wasn't there and neither were you.

A woman who's small child who is in the hands of strangers, in a strange enviroment and being held there, is NOT free at all. Her choices and options are limited thus nullifying the word "free." Reminder: The object here is to PROTECT the CHILDREN. The adult's rights are secondary (rightly so) to the problem at hand.

As for the 3 women. So far we cant prove or disprove what they are saying. We dont have enough information. But if they are telling the truth then that will probably come out in the next day or so. These people were taught to lie to outsiders. They are lying for Jesus and Jeffs. It may take some time to get at the truth.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:09 PM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?


No the things that are illigal in this case are as follows

1.) Sexual abuse of children under age 16
2.) Consdtant beating sometimes daily,
3.) Waterboarding children
4.) programming, programming , and more programming
5.) I am sure there are fraud issues also

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 03:10 PM
I guess I am just growing weary of seeing people trying to make their point about what is wrong in this situation using such inflammatory words as "sex slaves" "child molesters" "perverts" and so on and so on. The case against Warren Jeff's and any who are joining him in action, is strong enough legally on its own. It doesn't need the raking in of all that is tragic in our mainstream society (by that I mean the sexual abuse of children which is rampant in our culture) to make it more valid. It is valid enough as what it is. I think the FDLS might even be able to reform from within now that Jeff's has been locked up and the lid has been blown off what they are allowing to be done to their young women. This is troubling to me. The young girls ARE being used as sex slaves and baby machines for male egos. The men are pedophiles. They ARE child molesters and perverts! This isn't "inflammatory". It is a fact. They worst part is they have been flaunting it in the face of our justice system for decades that they can get away with it and the taxpayers have been part of funding them to do so!

I would be horrified if the FDLS were allowed to restructure and continue to practice their "religion" on a large scale. The women and children who were brainwashed into this system from birth would revert back to the lifestyle they knew and not break the chains of abuse. The majority of the older women will never recover. Their views will not change on their religion no matter how much counseling they are given.

mostlylurking
04-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Re: toys and machinery.

Y'all don't be visiting us during harvest then. You'll see a 9 yo who knows how to use a tractor, a hoe, a hay rake and likes it. You'll also note his hand 'tools' are his size not adult sized. You'd see all 12 of us, ages 63 to 9 years outside in the heat of August hand picking muscadines for up to 9 hours a day until they are all harvested. And until they invent a machine that can tell the difference between ripe and unripe grapes and won't bruise the fruits, costing us money, you'll see us out there doing it again this year...same as it's been done always.

Suppose I shouldn't have them doing eggs, cutting veggies for canning, pulling weeds, mucking stalls or milking the goats either.

Guess I'm a mean old child laborer user too. Although I never ask them to do anything I aint doing and do much of it myself rather than make them do it, they know how and they are expected to help. It's not a choice, it's a duty. Iffen they like to eat that is since we make most of our money for things like food, heat, water etc off of our crops.

I don't buy my kids play dough, character toys, many battery operated toys, barbies, brats, r rated movies, games that show killing as sport..oh and they don't watch tv...I'm horrible!

Seriously, nothing wrong with the whole family having farm chores to do. It happens all across the world every single day. Also nothing wrong with not buying into the 'mainstream' world that store bought toys are a must need item.

I think some of it is becoming sensationalized now.

Love it!!!!! :clap:
I have ideals of wanting to be somewhere in between, myself.
I hated chore charts as a kid & have not forced them on my kids, but, honestly, I can see where that hasn't helped in their understanding of self responsibility.....

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:11 PM
There have been reports that children under the age of six were routinely abused. That word "abuse" could mean many things. Mental, physical or sexual. The allegations are not limited to those girls under 13 or non-menstruating. There are boys who were removed as well as girls.

There is no way that I or anyone else on this board can say they were subjected to this daily no more than you can say they weren't. Until its proved in court.


Where are there reports that the children at YFZ were abused? The social workers who were there to receive the children said they were healthy, beautiful and well bonded with each other and their care givers.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 03:12 PM
notice that it says it was Warren abusing them? Im sure if they are going to this much trouble to talk about it openly they would mention others if there were others.

We have already decided that Warren Jeffs is a bad dude though, havent we?

I think it would be interesting to look at the number of child molestations that occur with children in the hands of CPS. I am assuming that is public record...I just havent looked for it. I bet that rate would shock us too.



And I think you have an agenda that entails blaming the government for anything and everything.

MyLilElves
04-13-2008, 03:14 PM
I don't know about Texas or anywhere else, but where I live the law is 16 or 6 years. Actually, the 6 years could have possibly been dropped. I'll have to check into that.

So, it would be legal for these girls to be having consentual sex with anyone no matter their age as long as they (the girls) were 16 or older at the time. If the six years still come into play then it's a whole different ball game.



Okay. This isn't a cult thing, but it is interesting that no one is going after the father of Jamie Lynn Spear's baby. He is an adult, over 18.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:14 PM
notice that it says it was Warren abusing them? Im sure if they are going to this much trouble to talk about it openly they would mention others if there were others.

We have already decided that Warren Jeffs is a bad dude though, havent we?

I think it would be interesting to look at the number of child molestations that occur with children in the hands of CPS. I am assuming that is public record...I just havent looked for it. I bet that rate would shock us too.
Yes it was WJ, but the point is that this is a pattern of abuse of KIDS, male or female within the FLDS and that includes all of its compounds. I'm sure that record would shock us. This group though has been allowed to operate under the umbrella of religion and although they have rights, those rights stop when they come into conflict with those who cannot speak for themselves, the children.

Those women and men from the FLDS who are screaming "my rights" have a voice. They can speak for themselves and they are.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Every person, according to the Constitution, has rights. In our society only an individual can be tried, not an entire community no matter how they live.

Since when does sexual abusing children, beating woman, and kids, and forcing kids and woman to do stuff they don't want to do, fit into OUR constitutional rights!

This religion is all about sex and money and lies! They are hiding behind a religion, saying that just because they beleive in the prophet it gives them the right to molest, beat, and harm these children and woman.

We as a society are for the most part against sexual abuse, but when it comes to sexual abuse mixed with religion, we are not so against it! WHY!?

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 03:16 PM
notice that it says it was Warren abusing them? Im sure if they are going to this much trouble to talk about it openly they would mention others if there were others.

We have already decided that Warren Jeffs is a bad dude though, havent we?

I think it would be interesting to look at the number of child molestations that occur with children in the hands of CPS. I am assuming that is public record...I just havent looked for it. I bet that rate would shock us too.

He is. He was convicted for being a bad dude and is currently sitting in prison for that.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:16 PM
Where are there reports that the children at YFZ were abused? The social workers who were there to receive the children said they were healthy, beautiful and well bonded with each other and their care givers.That's true, but I believe the affidavit from LE said there was a wide spread pattern of abuse that could be documented or was.

They might be healthy except for the cases of chicken pox but that does not mean that they are mentally healthy.

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:17 PM
Yes it was WJ, but the point is that this is a pattern of abuse of KIDS, male or female within the FLDS and that includes all of its compounds. I'm sure that record would shock us. This group though has been allowed to operate under the umbrella of religion and although they have rights, those rights stop when they come into conflict with those who cannot speak for themselves, the children.

Those women and men from the FLDS who are screaming "my rights" have a voice. They can speak for themselves and they are.


So based on that should we begin emptying the catholic schools and orphanges around the country? The world maybe?

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:17 PM
He is. He was convicted for being a bad dude and is currently sitting in prison for that.But he's still closely connected to the sect in Texas. Merrill Jessop and several others have been in contact with him. He is allowed visitors and phone calls and they've received their instructions.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:18 PM
I noted the women are also charged. What are the implications of this?


When and where did you get this info from? As far as know NOONE has been charged as of yet.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:19 PM
So based on that should we begin emptying the catholic schools and orphanges around the country? The world maybe?That's ludicrous and you know it. No person has the right to commit crimes. That includes those who claim immunity from prosecution because it's part of their religion. Btw, as I'm sure you know there were many priests prosecuted for sexual abuse. Abuse is NOT a tenent of their religion either.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 03:21 PM
But he's still closely connected to the sect in Texas. Merrill Jessop and several others have been in contact with him. He is allowed visitors and phone calls and they've received their instructions.

Hmmmm, my response wasn't about that. My response was that everyone has decided that Jeff's IS a bad dude because he is and that's why he is in prison.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:22 PM
No the things that are illigal in this case are as follows

1.) Sexual abuse of children under age 16
2.) Consdtant beating sometimes daily,
3.) Waterboarding children
4.) programming, programming , and more programming
5.) I am sure there are fraud issues alsoI have no words to describe my deep anger at the reports of small children being dunked under water in order to teach them not to cry, or to be shocked in order to teach them that.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 03:25 PM
So based on that should we begin emptying the catholic schools and orphanges around the country? The world maybe?

Not defending the guilty priests, but the situation is not even remotely similar. The catholic parents were outraged when they found out about what happened to their child. They weren't sequested in a cult and told that the priests had rights to their children.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:25 PM
Hmmmm, my response wasn't about that. My response was that everyone has decided that Jeff's IS a bad dude because he is and that's why he is in prison.I know :)I was just making the point that this guy is still controlling these people and his sick ways that he instituted are still going on even though he's behind bars.

One could have hoped that when he was arrested with all that entailed that came out about him the remaining FLDS would have taken a good long look at his teachings and stepped back from them. However that didn't happen because of the culture of fear he and others instilled. Plus the control and power that those in charge don't wish to give up. :mad:

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 03:26 PM
I know :)I was just making the point that this guy is still controlling these people and his sick ways that he instituted are still going on even though he's behind bars.

One could have hoped that when he was arrested with all that entailed that came out about him the remaining FLDS would have taken a good long look at his teachings and stepped back from them. However that didn't happen because of the culture of fear he and others instilled. Plus the control and power that those in charge don't wish to give up. :mad:

Ah ok, I getcha now. It's scary how much Jeffs is able to accomplish behind bars.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:29 PM
Hi Ladybass, The children under the age of 13 or to be more specific, the non menstruating girls were not being raped or molested daily.

A woman who's small child who is in the hands of strangers, in a strange enviroment and being held there, is NOT free at all. Her choices and options are limited thus nullifying the word "free"

As for the 3 women. So far we cant prove or disprove what they are saying. We dont have enough information. But if they are telling the truth then that will probably come out in the next day or so.

Glow I see your point. But Glow, you know that as soon as these girls reach there puberty age they will be molest and raped.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:31 PM
well my idea was to bring them to the negotiating table and not just crack down on but completely dry up the money. As well as keep an ongoing vigliant eye on the underage thing as in NOT tolerating it at all.

Do you have a link for the Arizona "plan" ?

I guess we could by that same token then call this situation now in Texas the "Short Creek plan"

not only did that not work, it sent things backwards according to Carolyn Jessup...

The distinct pioneer-style dresses, worn over long underwear year-round and sewn by the women, became part of the dress code after the 1953 raid as each generation added more restrictions, said Jessop, who left the community five years ago.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-04-07-1190589243_x.htm


This "religion" has been ingrained into these children and woman for several years. It will take years and years to deprogram these people, so no negotions will work.

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:31 PM
That's ludicrous and you know it. No person has the right to commit crimes. That includes those who claim immunity from prosecution because it's part of their religion. Btw, as I'm sure you know there were many priests prosecuted for sexual abuse. Abuse is NOT a tenent of their religion either.


Actually, given the thousands of reported abuse cases there were very few priests prosecuted. What was more common was the church settling the claims with money and the priests reassigned to abuse somewhere else. Abuse isn't a tenet of FLDS either. Polygamy is.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:33 PM
Where are there reports that the children at YFZ were abused? The social workers who were there to receive the children said they were healthy, beautiful and well bonded with each other and their care givers.


Mental and emotion programming. There are also articles where babies were held under water to teach them not to cry. If thats not abuse then I dunno what is!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:34 PM
And I think you have an agenda that entails blaming the government for anything and everything.



VERY WELL SAID I beleive this may be the case to.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:35 PM
FLD are protesting saying their "First Amendment right of freedom of speech and association, and their Fourth Amendment right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure in criminal cases" were violated.


http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/262383/3/
"The Fourth Amendment forbids unreasonable searches and seizures -- with the emphasis on unreasonable. What is reasonable is not a single standard, but must vary with each case. This case is highly unusual, and must be considered on its own terms. What might be reasonable in ordinary cases would be utterly inadequate in this one. "

"A First Amendment claim has also been raised. But the protection of religious practice is no shield against crime. The Texas compound was raided not because of religious beliefs but because of allegations that had nothing to do with any tolerable religion. Religion ends where child sexual abuse begins."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:35 PM
So based on that should we begin emptying the catholic schools and orphanges around the country? The world maybe?


Why are you supporting pedophilia?!?! Thats all this is, except they are hiding behind there religion!

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:37 PM
Glow I see your point. But Glow, you know that as soon as these girls reach there puberty age they will be molest and raped.

Thanks Ladybass, I see some of what you are saying also :blowkiss:

I do worry about these girls that are at puberty age given the current mindset of the church leaders. But I dont think that a 6 month old should be "detained" because of that worry. I worry even more about where that 6 month old will end up if she is taken away from her mother and placed in the system. CPS at least here in Fla. where I live is in terrible shape as far as abusing children. It would be a shame to take these children away only to put them in a situation that is in bad shape itself. There is a lot to worry about here any way you look at it.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 03:38 PM
Actually, given the thousands of reported abuse cases there were very few priests prosecuted. What was more common was the church settling the claims with money and the priests reassigned to abuse somewhere else. Abuse isn't a tenet of FLDS either. Polygamy is.This case isn't about polygamy. We're discussing that factor because it is a part of the overal sect.

This case is about a pattern of wide spread ABUSE. It's clear that the FRAUD will be a part of this case. I haven't heard yet of one man or woman arrested in this case because they are practicing polygamists. IF it is proved that individual men or women ABUSED any of the children under 18 or committed FRAUD then that will be the basis of the charges against them, not because they were married "spiritually" to other partners. If they are bigamists, being married to more than one person in order to commit fraud then those will be charges brought.

Truly
04-13-2008, 03:39 PM
Actually, given the thousands of reported abuse cases there were very few priests prosecuted. What was more common was the church settling the claims with money and the priests reassigned to abuse somewhere else. Abuse isn't a tenet of FLDS either. Polygamy is.

Which is exactly what has happenned when authorities have tried your recommended approach of slow negotiations with the men of the FLDS. Prosecution in a court of law and imprisonment for the guilty is the way to go for anyone who would sexually assault a child.:behindbar

golfmom
04-13-2008, 03:39 PM
Hi Ladybass, The children under the age of 13 or to be more specific, the non menstruating girls were not being raped or molested daily.


Maybe not daily, Glow, but many escapees have confirmed that their daddy's and others "helped" prepare them for their marriages.

golfmom
04-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Do you have a link for the Arizona "plan" ?



As a matter of fact I did and have already posted it. You're welcome to search it out. Basically it was a description of the most recent efforts in AZ, their plan and how they were implementing it.

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 03:46 PM
So based on that should we begin emptying the catholic schools and orphanges around the country? The world maybe?If the adults in charge of these children are using them for their own sexual gratification and egos...absolutely we should!! :furious:

By the way, we aren't discussing consensual sex between teenagers here. We are discussing men in power taking advantage of women and children in the worst way...abuse under the pretense of religion for sexual gratification.

Glow
04-13-2008, 03:52 PM
If the adults in charge of these children are using them for their own sexual gratification and egos...absolutely we should!! :furious:

well but see, we wont. To much power and too much money. People wouldnt stand for it.

Trino
04-13-2008, 03:52 PM
So, shouldn't the daddies and mommies be in jail right now? They have been charged.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:56 PM
So, shouldn't the daddies and mommies be in jail right now? They have been charged.


They have NOT been charged yet.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 03:58 PM
There being sued in court, but that is not CRIMINAL charges.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:02 PM
So, shouldn't the daddies and mommies be in jail right now? They have been charged.There was a list of names of persons who have been subpeona'd. Have specific charges been leveled against each of them as yet?

Floh
04-13-2008, 04:02 PM
well but see, we wont. To much power and too much money. People wouldnt stand for it.

This thread is about the FLDS, not the catholic church. although the FLDS do have people in place because they are powerful and wealthy. not as wealthy as the catholic church. but this is all relative.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 04:03 PM
There was a list of names of persons who have been subpeona'd. Have specific charges been leveled against each of them as yet?

No the supenas (sp) are only to determine who is the righful parent. Not criminal charges.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:04 PM
There being sued in court, but that is not CRIMINAL charges.If they're able to prove underage marriage I presume there will be charges of statutory rape. There are issues regarding incest as well although I don't know whether there are charges that can be leveled regarding that.

Trino
04-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Monkey wrench:

Utah allows 15 year olds to marry. If a 15 year old was married in Utah, then moved to Texas, the marriage would be legal in Texas - assuming, of course, there was a valid Utah license.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 04:06 PM
Monkey wrench:

Utah allows 15 year olds to marry. If a 15 year old was married in Utah, then moved to Texas, the marriage would be legal in Texas - assuming, of course, there was a valid Utah license.



I have to stop and ask myself of why You to would be supporting pedophilia?!

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:06 PM
This thread is about the FLDS, not the catholic church. although the FLDS do have people in place because they are powerful and wealthy. not as wealthy as the catholic church. but this is all relative.Floh, in reference to both FLDS/Catholic abuse I found this:

"There has been widespread misinterpretation of the First Amendment's free exercise clause by academics and authorities, who mistakenly read the Constitution as a mandate of "religious autonomy." The Supreme Court has never condoned "autonomy" or freedom from the law.

"There's a pivotal difference between FLDS and Catholic child-molester priests (and clergy of other faiths as well): namely that what FLDS does is part of their avowed beliefs and policy, whereas in the other religions it's against the rules."

"The hierarchy of the Catholic Church has argued vigorously that it has a constitutional right to avoid lawsuits by victims, because of an asserted belief in the sanctity of conversation between a bishop and a priest. Courts have rejected the theory, but they continue to argue for constitutional rights in cases involving the cover up of child abuse."

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:09 PM
BTW for those of you who watch "Big Love" I read an article by the creator of the show. He had driven through Colorado City and experienced first hand the suspicion etc by the sect. He was followed and questioned and "encouraged" to leave town. He admitted that he had loosely based Big Love on the FLDS.

Truly
04-13-2008, 04:11 PM
So, shouldn't the daddies and mommies be in jail right now? They have been charged.

Sorry, Trino, I tried to respond to your question when you posted it earlier. In post 553, I explained that this is a civil suit, not criminal charges. The parents now have the opportunity to respond, or they can continue to refuse to identify their children. The Court is trying to determine emergency, temporary, and permanent guardianship arrangements for the children.

ETA: And here, again, is Leila's link to the actual subpeona http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:15 PM
Sorry, Trino, I tried to respond to your question when you posted it earlier. In post 553, I explained that this is a civil suit, not criminal charges. The parents now have the opportunity to respond, or they can continue to refuse to identify their children. The Court is trying to determine emergency, temporary, and permanent guardianship arrangements for the children.The question is will some of them "abandon" their children and not identify them so that they can escape possible charges?

Glow
04-13-2008, 04:29 PM
"Leaving the small children in the home," those that were not underaged pregnant girls would have been a mistake IMO. This sect has been practicing a policy of hiding children and spiriting them out of country to Mexico, Canada or to other states. So if the CPS needed to contact those children and they weren't there all of a sudden then just what recourse would they have to be able to check on their welfare? Especially if the children had no ages or names documented? CPS did what they should have done. Now the process will proceed and we will see what happens.


LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:33 PM
LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.
And controlled by those same persons who perhaps committed abuse on their siblings? As well as to "tamper" with witnesses ie...the children or the underaged mothers. Right....

Edited to add: Let's say LE kept the children in their own beds and prevented the adults from being there. That's violating their rights correct? To throw them out of their homes? You and others would be protesting at that. LE is supposed to leave at risk children in the care of the same persons they're investigating for abuse?

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 04:34 PM
I have to stop and ask myself of why You to would be supporting pedophilia?!

I think Trino pointing out a possible catch in the law should not be equated to supporting pedophilia. I don't support pedophelia in no way shape or form. But I have to admit I am quite interested in how the authorities will handle that one. Very interesting, IMO.

ETA: However, I doubt there are very many legal marriages on file in Utah.

Truly
04-13-2008, 04:36 PM
LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.


The children would again be in danger of being forcibly raped in the Temple beds. They did not have 'their own lives' at the compound. They were the property of whichever adult male owned them. I sincerely hope that most of these kids will be able to recover from the mental, emotional and physical traumas which they have been subjected to their entire lives.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 04:38 PM
Why are you supporting pedophilia?!?! Thats all this is, except they are hiding behind there religion!

Bumping this up. Please keep the TOS in mind when making comments. We've already had the mods on this thread once warning us about personal attacks.

ETA: the above quote was in reference to a post made by Glow. Sorry, the quote didn't work how I wanted.

Pepper
04-13-2008, 04:41 PM
LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.

I see. Let's assume there was a family living next door to you, and one day their 14 yr. old daughter tells you that she is being raped by her father. Her mother knows about it, tells the father to stop, but this mother doesn't want to break up her family, so nothing is done. So you, the neighbor, do nothing because that child is better off at home than in a foster home? GET REAL!

mollymalone
04-13-2008, 04:42 PM
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=&ned=us

For those of you interested in articles about the case you can type in 'Polygamy and the law" or simply FLDS or Texas sect at Google News and you'll get all manner of articles.

sherri79
04-13-2008, 04:52 PM
I see. Let's assume there was a family living next door to you, and one day their 14 yr. old daughter tells you that she is being raped by her father. Her mother knows about it, tells the father to stop, but this mother doesn't want to break up her family, so nothing is done. So you, the neighbor, do nothing because that child is better off at home than in a foster home? GET REAL!and if the 14 year old contacts police then i think glow is saying the 12yr old and 9 year old children should be left in the house. only remove the raped child while police investigate but leave the unraped children in the home with those that abused or allowed abuse to continue.

Glow
04-13-2008, 04:55 PM
Bumping this up. Please keep the TOS in mind when making comments. We've already had the mods on this thread once warning us about personal attacks.

ETA: the above quote was in reference to a post made by Glow. Sorry, the quote didn't work how I wanted.


Its ok Suzi! I understand that this is an emotional topic for us all. I appreciate ones such as yourself that are able to discuss it intellectually even though we dont always agree.

Truly
04-13-2008, 05:04 PM
Its ok Suzi! I understand that this is an emotional topic for us all. I appreciate ones such as yourself that are able to discuss it intellectually even though we dont always agree.

OK then. Let's try the intellectual approach. Many people on this thread have suggested that the FLDS is nothing more that a pedophile cult hiding behind religion. What is your opinion on that aspect of this case? Thanks.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 05:06 PM
Its ok Suzi! I understand that this is an emotional topic for us all. I appreciate ones such as yourself that are able to discuss it intellectually even though we dont always agree.

Actually it wasn't supposed to be aimed just towards you either. I was using ladybass's response to your response as a heads up to everyone, and a reminder of the TOS. Sorry about that, and I'm not even taking painkillers anymore.

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 05:11 PM
AP is reporting they confiscated the cell phones from the women and children to avoid witness tampering under an order by the judge.

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 05:14 PM
AP is reporting they confiscated the cell phones from the women and children to avoid witness tampering under an order by the judge.

I've been wondering if it was a good idea to let them have there cell phones. I'm worried about the "enforcers" that might be with the children.

Floh
04-13-2008, 05:14 PM
AP is reporting they confiscated the cell phones from the women and children to avoid witness tampering under an order by the judge.

I wonder when they did that? because if they had their phones for a few days there would have been much time for witness tampering already.

Glow
04-13-2008, 05:22 PM
Actually it wasn't supposed to be aimed just towards you either. I was using ladybass's response to your response as a heads up to everyone, and a reminder of the TOS. Sorry about that, and I'm not even taking painkillers anymore.


LOL I want to see you on painkillers!

I am a great respecter of the opinions of others. I have learned a lot on this thread. Like I said before we are all wanting one thing for sure...the well being of the children. I have been suprised and delighted at how many posters on this thread are kind, helpful and patient with each other.

Trino
04-13-2008, 05:43 PM
I have to stop and ask myself of why You to would be supporting pedophilia?!

What??? I, a female, would support pedophilia? Are you insane?

Glow
04-13-2008, 05:43 PM
Since weve all been talking about these women and children I thought it would be nice to put a face to it all. This woman says her 2 yr old is being kept from her.


http://deseretnews.com/photos/midres/5381493.jpg

SuziQ
04-13-2008, 05:48 PM
Here are some questions regarding what is next for the 416 children removed from the YFZ Ranch because of allegations of a "pervasive" pattern of physical and sexual abuse involving the minors.
The questions were fielded late last week by Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, the agency caring for the women and children, and John J. Sampson, a University of Texas law professor who teaches the Children's Right's Clinic, which provides legal representation for abused and neglected children in Travis County. (more at link)

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/13/future-unclear-for-removed-youths/

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 05:48 PM
I wonder when they did that? because if they had their phones for a few days there would have been much time for witness tampering already.It just came out this afternoon, but I don't know when it took place. They had to wait on the court order before they could take them.

LinasK
04-13-2008, 05:51 PM
I for one can't understand why this is being viewed as any different than other cases where children are removed from their homes for "suspected" child abuse.

If I had a house next door, with 2 men and multiple women living, and there appeared to be a pregnant 15 year old girl and noone had reported it, I would. CPS would come in and investigate. Upon arriving, they find 2 adult men, 2 adult women and 2 teenage girls, 1 pregnant, 2 minor children. The pregnant girl refuses to say who impregnated her. One of the adult women claims to be her mom.

The adults were responsible for her safety. Under TX law, they were legally responsible for reporting child sexual abuse. They didn't. That's child neglect. The other children are in danger of not being cared for. CPS is going to remove all the children until an investigation is done.

The adult women are not going to be allowed to accompany the children. They are not going to be allowed to contact them at all until there is a hearing. Yes, the children are going to go through some trauma. Who knows what trauma they have already gone through.

Why is this any different? In this situation, at least some of the adult women were allowed to leave - they were given far more latitude than in other cases. In other words, they were given special treatment because of special circumstances.

As a former foster parent, I can tell you that many times, the abused child is going to continue to cling to the abuser, not knowing any better. That is who they know and "love", and they do not understand the moral, legal ramifications of what is going on. It's hard, it's sad, and it is traumatic for everyone. But the childrens' welfare is at stake here, and their rights trump the adult's rights. They are not the "property" of the adults, they are living, breathing human beings, and must be protected at all costs.

Excellent post Barb!:clap: :clap: :clap: Who cares about the parent's rights when these children have been abused? It's all about the children, the brainwashed mothers would drag them right back into the abusive life-styles where their own fathers could beat them and have incest with them!:eek: :eek: :eek:

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 05:53 PM
Since weve all been talking about these women and children I thought it would be nice to put a face to it all. This woman says her 2 yr old is being kept from her.


http://deseretnews.com/photos/midres/5381493.jpgGood! It means the 2 year old is safe and the mother has a chance at being reprogrammed in order for her to be in a position to raise the child eventually. As long as she is under the mental influence of the FDLS, she should not be allowed contact with an innocent child, imo. This 2 year old will be one of the few victims here that can have a shot at a normal life without the years of therapy ahead of the rest. :clap: :clap:

LinasK
04-13-2008, 05:53 PM
The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?

The only abuse? I think not, we've heard claims of them water-boarding babies into submission, and physical abuse, it's not just sexual abuse! Also Cynanide documents were found, like Jonestown or Waco!


no child should ever be left in a home with a adult that has sexually abused any child in that home. if i only rape my son i should not have custody of my daughter. the fact i rape a child makes me a danger to children and unfit.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-13-2008, 06:14 PM
What??? I, a female would be support pedophilia? Are you insane?


I am just saying. the excuses you are using to support these people seem to me that you beelive nothing is going on. My apoligies!

LinasK
04-13-2008, 06:17 PM
This thread is about the FLDS, not the catholic church. although the FLDS do have people in place because they are powerful and wealthy. not as wealthy as the catholic church. but this is all relative.

Also, the Catholic church doesn't hold people in compounds against their will and isolate them from society.

Polygamy is what allows them to conduct abuse in secrecy. Since when is marrying a child, even legally, allowed when it is really bigamy and statutory rape (and yes, they should go after Jamie Spears SO, but that's not what this thread is about)?

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 06:19 PM
I believe we are going to find more and more attrocities that have taken place under the guise of religion in this case. Decades upon decades of horrific abuses and secrets are yet to unfold. Just think, this is only a few days out and it is going to take years to unravel their sick sect. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that murders have occurred at the hands of these men, too.

Trino
04-13-2008, 08:08 PM
I am just saying. the excuses you are using to support these people seem to me that you beelive nothing is going on. My apoligies!

I'm not supporting these parents. I'm just wondering if there really is enough judicial evidence to convict them of sexual abuse. Each parent is going to be defending him/herself, and I think it's going to be a hard and drawn out battle over civil rights. Unless these women/girls testify against the men, everything could backfire. Please remember these people were hand-picked by Jeffs.

And, I still believe it's wrong that the women who were absent from the raid are not permitted to see their children. It breaks my heart to think of the young child who cries for her mother daily - previous post.

LinasK
04-13-2008, 08:22 PM
I'm not supporting these parents. I'm just wondering if there really is enough judicial evidence to convict them of sexual abuse. Each parent is going to be defending him/herself, and I think it's going to be a hard and drawn out battle over civil rights. Unless these women/girls testify against the men, everything could backfire. Please remember these people were hand-picked by Jeffs.

And, I still believe it's wrong that the women who were absent from the raid are not permitted to see their children. It breaks my heart to think of the young child who cries for her mother daily - previous post.

They found the linens messed up in the temple beds, and sex toys, and you have eyewitnesses- pregnant 16-year-olds "married" off, but not legally married, and FLDS women who have left who can testify to the types of abuses.

The mothers should not be in contact with their minor children because of witness tampering and brain-washing. The kids will get plenty of nurturing from people who care that they were abused, such as social workers and foster families.

MyLilElves
04-13-2008, 08:22 PM
Call me suspicious but then these men would still have access to the children. I can see all kinds of threats of the if you say anything variety. Or better yet, reinforcing to the children that the outsiders are the devil etc.




LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.

Leila
04-13-2008, 10:06 PM
I'm not sure it can reform from within Glow. Carolyn Jessop who fled the flds was married to the leader Merrill Jessop who runs the Tx compound. She more than most knows what this man is capable of.

I'm trying to find the court documents that were presented in Warren Jeff's trial that I read last night. It was clear from his conversations with members of this very same compound that Warren Jeffs was still in command.

He directed Merrill Jessop to be in charge. He directed the people he talked with to ensure that one family within the compound were to exchange places with another family that was in another location out of state. He was still calling the shots. These people, despite his incarceration still believe he is the prophet, contrary to his words stating that he was not. Believe it or not, one or two of the males he spoke to actually thought his words about not being the prophet were a "test" of their loyalty.

I also read where several of the children believed Jeffs was the president of the U.S. because he had held himself out to be so.

So colour me skeptical that things will change from within. Not as long as his "faithful" and "loyal" subjects are in charge of things. Not as long as delusional and power hungry people reach out to "control" those they deem weaker than themselves.

I've been out for most of the day and am just now trying to catch up with the posts on this thread.

I think it's impossible for any sort of reform within the FLDS. If you go back a hundred years you will find that there were charges of sexual abuse of minor children throughout the history of the FDLS. This has been an ongoing way of life for generations.

The raid on Short Creek (now Colorado City) Arizona in 1953 - 52 years ago, was because of sexual abuse of minor children. Nothing has changed since. The abuse has continued for another few generations.

It's was worse under Warren Jeffs, and the YFZ is worse under Merrill Jessop because not only is there sexual abuse, but the physical abuse that includes teaching babies and young children not to cry by holding their heads under running water and or hitting them in the face; withholding food and water for days; and locking them in closets for lengthy periods of time.

Nothing is going to change. As soon as this crisis is over and the FLDS weathers the storm, it will be back to business as usual. They may lose some children, permanently removed because of abuse, but that won't stop them.

SeriouslySearching
04-13-2008, 10:11 PM
The sad fact is...even with what is going on right now in Texas...they are still carrying on business as usual in the other compounds. They won't stop, Leila. You are so right.

Glow
04-13-2008, 10:15 PM
Call me suspicious but then these men would still have access to the children. I can see all kinds of threats of the if you say anything variety. Or better yet, reinforcing to the children that the outsiders are the devil etc.

No I don't call you suspicious. That is a very good point and I hadn't considered that. I just keep casting around in my own mind for a way that this can all not be happening for these children and the moms. I don't believe the only way to correct a wrong is always with another wrong. And what is going on with this situation is wrong to me. And there will be more wrongs that occur before it is all done. First we had the holding of women hostage thru their children. Next we have the cutting them off from the outside world through their cell phones. I think the next thing will be enforced vaccinations against their will. And on it goes.

AlwaysShocked
04-13-2008, 10:41 PM
"Many people on this thread have suggested that the FLDS is nothing more that a pedophile cult hiding behind religion."

I think this is exactly what this is and has been for years. And I think that most of the people who have encountered the situation over the years have thought that this is exactly what this is.

A bunch of old creeps using their "religious beliefs" as a cover for bedding down and impregnating a fresh crop of young girls year after year. Why have they been getting rid of all the young men from the communities all this time? Do the "religious beliefs" tell them to do that or do they just not want the competition of the younger males around "their women"?

I'm just glad that these Texas agencies have finally gotten up the "cojones" to put a stop to it. It is a disgrace that Utah and Arizona agencies failed to do this for so many years.

Yes, there will be children crying who miss their mothers. But if not this, then what? When and how will it ever stop?

mollymalone
04-14-2008, 01:03 AM
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=527
articles/downloads regarding the flds doctrine as decided by Warren Jeffs.

Page 2-3 People who have fled the FLDS

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Salt Lake Tribune
Brook Adams blog

All week, law officers guarding and patroling the fort have been pulling over vehicles driven by people who appear to be from the FLDS community.

The van had a Nevada plate. I don't know why the pair came to Fort Concho.

But if they are among the unknown number of FLDS parents trying to claim children taken from the ranch while they were elsewhere on business, it may be a frustrating week.

Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has confirmed that parents are arriving and seeking to be reunited with their children. But among the many legal documents filed so far in this case, the state says that any one -- man or woman -- who wants to assert parentage of a child now in its care will have to submit to a genetic test to prove their claim. The policy apparently also applies to the women at Fort Concho and the men at YFZ Ranch.

For now, Texas officials are turning away so such parents and telling them they will have to wait until a hearing next Thursday, when 51st Judge Barbara Walther will begin making decisions about what to do with the state's new wards.

philamena
04-14-2008, 01:06 AM
Glow,
Simple question-------
If children under the age of 16, who lived at the compound were forced to have sex, do you consider that sexual abuse?

Glow
04-14-2008, 01:07 AM
OK then. Let's try the intellectual approach. Many people on this thread have suggested that the FLDS is nothing more that a pedophile cult hiding behind religion. What is your opinion on that aspect of this case? Thanks.

Hi Truly, the idea that this is a pedophile cult hiding behind a religion is definitely how many see it...I appreciate you giving me a chance to answer you on that.

At one point in time virtually every culture and every religion allowed for polygamy. The Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Muslims etc, all did. Polygamy is still widely practiced around the world today although not so much in more developed countries. The basic appeal of polygamy is not sex. It is to produce as many offspring as possible as quickly as possible. In the Bible God told Abraham I will make you a mighty nation and then instituted polygamy with him (although it was already in practice with other people). The end result was this Bedouin man living on the arid desert became the father of 3 of the worlds most prominent religions. Jews, Christians and Muslims all hail Abraham as the rootstock of their particular bend of religion. Since then, religions Christian and non Christian alike have understood the basic biology behind polygamy and that it works if your goal is to grow as a "group" as fast as possible. The Catholic church allowed for it at one time, as did the Jews as well as Martin Luther. They all would later move away from the practice.

The Latter Day Saints (Mormons) under the direction of their modern day prophet Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. They were persecuted and burned out of town after town from Nauvoo IL. westward until they settled in Utah, believing it to be a land flowing with milk and honey. A parallel to the Jews in the Bible. Eventually as the laws of America began to solidify The church of LDS saw the need to abolish polygamy. Some were not happy with this move away from a basic foundational belief and formed splinter groups. There are several splinter groups, FLDS being one. These have continued to practice the way life the way that it had been regardless of what they perceived as "mans law" They have backed this up as being the will of God as they see it. It does not work to tell them that these girls are too young. Biology says that a menstruating female is ready to participate in procreation. They are aware that history supports the fact that the actual mother of God was 14 when she gave birth to Jesus. Would God have done something wrong in impregnating her? Remember, they are fundamentalists. Things exist mostly in black and white for them. The evidence of their sincerity is in the fact that they hold to this even when it is to their own detriment. They stick with the old ways irregardless of society moving ahead. This is reflected in their clothes, their sacrificing of personal goals and talents for the communal living arrangement and so on. I am speaking of the men. The image of them riding around in big cars and handing women and young girls off as favors is really the image only of Warren Jeffs and his "type". This is not reflective of the average man. That is why Carolyn Jessup paused and looked so torn and compassionate when asked how she felt about these men. Even though she is an activist bent on fixing the definite problems within this religion, her compassion and depth of understanding of the whole picture is obvious. You can go view it on the Larry King interview if you would like to. In addition, there are very active and eloquent polygamous women who are willing to speak out to any who want to truly listen as to why exactly they not only remain in, but prefer the polygamous life style. These are women who married under and above the legal age limit and we owe it to them to at least hear what they have to say.

The obvious and urgent need is to make it very clear to FLDS leaders that concessions needs to be madeon their part. This long standing life style has got to stretch to accommodate the laws of the land. There is no other choice. However, acting with force only accentuates the belief of persecution and does not help in the long term. In this situation, knowledge is power. The FLDS leadership needs to rid itself of the dangerous Warren Jeffs as well as see clearly the "knowledge" that the money flow is in danger. Let us then see how that "affects new "revelations".

The American government for it's part, needs to realize that "might makes right" is an abysmal failure when put into practice in peoples everyday lives. Consider this, the first large mass arrest was the Native Americans in the 1800's, this one destroyed an entire culture.

The second was the FDLS in 1953, this one drove the culture deeper into itself.

The third one is happening right now.

The best indicator of the future is the past.

Glow
04-14-2008, 01:29 AM
Glow,
Simple question-------
If children under the age of 16, who lived at the compound were forced to have sex, do you consider that sexual abuse?


Hi philamena,

simple answer------ yes if you go by Texas law today. No if you go by Texas law 2 years ago when the legal age was 14.

my not simple answer would be that a girl/woman of any age should never be forced to have sex against her wishes.

The facts are that in 2002, more than 17,000 girls aged 14 or under became pregnant nationwide, and more than a quarter million American girls aged 15-17 became pregnant that same year. Do you think that all of them were wanting to have sex?

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 01:39 AM
Hi philamena,

simple answer------ yes if you go by Texas law today. No if you go by Texas law 2 years ago when the legal age was 14.

my not simple answer would be that a girl/woman of any age should never be forced to have sex against her wishes.

The facts are that in 2002, more than 17,000 girls aged 14 or under became pregnant nationwide, and more than a quarter million American girls aged 15-17 became pregnant that same year. Do you think that all of them were wanting to have sex?

Glow -are you defending the FLDS? It sure sounds like it. You're talking apples and oranges here. The girls in the FLDS have no choice - about to whom they are married or what happens afterward. Other girls are free-thinking people who think they know what they're doing of their own accord. Or, they do not have the facts necessary to ensure they DO NOT become pregnant. Do you know that recently a study of US high school students showed they believe that drinking Mountain Dew will keep them from getting pregnant? We are letting our children down by not being thruthful in a pathetic attempt to "protect" them. The FLDS ensures their legacy by purposefully not being thruthful. These are two far different scenarios.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 01:43 AM
I'm going to post something that has been bothering me. I'm not posting this to side with or against anyone in this case. I am posting this because my heart breaks for the kids and I hope the shelter workers and physicians know what they are doing and are being as gentle and caring as they can be. If the below statements are true, then the authorities need to rethink their tactics. The children are already fearful of outsiders as it is. Don't do things that support that belief. There are a couple of pics from inside the shelter. I do not like what I see. It's also occured to me that this article is the reason the cellphones were taken away.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

(snip)

Kathleen believes some of the child welfare workers have used frightening tactics when interviewing the children. She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again." Texas Department of Family and Protective Services officials say they've made great efforts to try to make the children and women comfortable. DPS officials say they are interviewing the children in an effort to establish their identities, but have not discussed interviewing methods.


FLDS children and adult are extremely modest and they wear long dresses and long-sleeved shirts. The mothers said the children have also received physical examinations from medical workers and it has been traumatic to some. "Some of the children have come out crying and screaming," she said. "They were touching their bodies in inappropriate ways."

Glow
04-14-2008, 01:51 AM
Glow -are you defending the FLDS? It sure sounds like it. You're talking apples and oranges here. The girls in the FLDS have no choice - about to whom they are married or what happens afterward. Other girls are free-thinking people who think they know what they're doing of their own accord. Or, they do not have the facts necessary to ensure they DO NOT become pregnant. Do you know that recently a study of US high school students showed they believe that drinking Mountain Dew will keep them from getting pregnant? We are letting our children down by not being thruthful in a pathetic attempt to "protect" them. The FLDS ensures their legacy by purposefully not being thruthful. These are two far different scenarios.

Hi Fairy,

No. I am not defending them. I am attempting to understand them in an effort to change them with the least amount of trauma to the women and children as well as money spent. I am sure that I will be completely unsuccessful.

LinasK
04-14-2008, 01:52 AM
I

FLDS children and adult are extremely modest and they wear long dresses and long-sleeved shirts. The mothers said the children have also received physical examinations from medical workers and it has been traumatic to some. "Some of the children have come out crying and screaming," she said. "They were touching their bodies in inappropriate ways."


Oh pulease!!!:doh:
They may need to examine the girls for sexual abuse, but how much more inappropriate can you get than what has been done to them??? That's what's inappropriate!:banghead::banghead::banghead::behin dbar

Glow
04-14-2008, 01:59 AM
Oh pulease!!!:doh:
They may need to examine the girls for sexual abuse, but how much more inappropriate can you get than what has been done to them??? That's what's inappropriate!:banghead::banghead::banghead::behin dbar


What has been "done to them" within their frame of upbringing makes sense to them, even if it is wrong. What is being "done" to them by the people they have been taught to fear is traumatizing them much more.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:00 AM
Oh pulease!!!:doh:
They may need to examine the girls for sexual abuse, but how much more inappropriate can you get than what has been done to them??? That's what's inappropriate!:banghead::banghead::banghead::behin dbar

There may be a good chance that a child, especially a female that isn't menstruating yet, hasn't been sexually abused at all.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:02 AM
Hi Fairy,

No. I am not defending them. I am attempting to understand them in an effort to change them with the least amount of trauma to the women and children as well as money spent. I am sure that I will be completely unsuccessful.

Oh Glow, I hope you don't truly feel that way. It is going to be a difficult task, to be sure. But we, as a free-thinking society cannot simply give up just because it's hard. We all know that a 50 year old "man" having sex with a 15 or 16 year old girl is not right. The FLDS is a man-made "religion" that enables pedophiles complete and total control over their followers. is wrong on so many levels. Over and above the pedophilia involved, after decades of this lifestyle, the children now suffer from disease and birth defects that can be attributed directly to in-breeding. Can we all really stand by and let this continue?? This goes so far beyond the "live and let live" philosophy, I will be ashamed not to try to fix it. And so should everyone else who knows what's happening in the FLDS communities.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:02 AM
What is in print should always be taken with a grain of salt especially considering the source. And in this case the source is suspect. However, the pictures don't lie.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:09 AM
These children - and many of thier mothers will be traumatized by what they are going through now. They have been taught from the beginning of thier lives that anyone outside of their sect is "evil." Whatever they are being exposed to now is different from what they know. That does not mean what they know is alright. The authorities cannot throw up their hands and say it's too hard to do this. As I've said before, if this is allowed to continue, what's stopping any freak from beginning their own "religious" cult that includes sexual and physical abuse? Letting it continue while under the media spotlight sends a deadly message from which we, as a nation, may never recover.

Glow
04-14-2008, 02:18 AM
Oh Glow, I hope you don't truly feel that way. It is going to be a difficult task, to be sure. But we, as a free-thinking society cannot simply give up just because it's hard. We all know that a 50 year old "man" having sex with a 15 or 16 year old girl is not right. The FLDS is a man-made "religion" that enables pedophiles complete and total control over their followers. is wrong on so many levels. Over and above the pedophilia involved, after decades of this lifestyle, the children now suffer from disease and birth defects that can be attributed directly to in-breeding. Can we all really stand by and let this continue?? This goes so far beyond the "live and let live" philosophy, I will be ashamed not to try to fix it. And so should everyone else who knows what's happening in the FLDS communities.

We as a free thinking society? Think about what that means. It means allowing for differences of thought. As far as religions go, all religions are man made if you get right down to the basics.

As far as inbreeding and disease, that is hysteria at work. Of course some of these splinter groups are going to experience the results of inbreeding.

But aside from the propaganda, this is one crazy mans (Warren Jeff's) cream of the crop. This is a lot of really healthy women and children. Isn't that what your own eyes tell you when you look at pictures of them?

Glow
04-14-2008, 02:27 AM
. The authorities cannot throw up their hands and say it's too hard to do this.


The "authorities"? Arent we the authorities?

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 02:29 AM
Suzi~ I read every word of that and you have to remember those quotes are coming from members of FLDS. I am sorry, but of course they are going to be defensive and only tell of the horror they feel they see happening. To them, the outside world is filled with horrors anyway. Fear is going to be irrational and expected.

The truth is...it is going to be uncomfortable for the children to be examined by anyone from the outside. They would think it is inappropriate touching if someone examined their bare backs. It has to be done in spite of how uncomfortable it makes them and I am sure the ones doing it are being as kind, considerate, and gentle as possible. They are not harming anyone.

The truth is...it is going to be an uncomfortable situation to be cramped in rooms with so many children. Children cry at bedtime. Children cry when they are tired. The one woman did say that the mothers were offered to come with their children and some did not so were not to be allowed in. I agree. No one really knows WHO the mothers of these children truly are. They cannot allow women from the outside in due to the risk of witness tampering and possible threats coming from the church men. I can certainly see why they took away their cell phones!!

The truth is...the state of Texas is doing everything within their power to make this transition go as smoothly as possible. They did not create this mess...Warren Jeffs and FLDS did!!

If the women and children had not been held captive, raped, molested, and treated as mere possessions to be traded as breeding cattle for old men...none of this would be taking place. Do NOT blame the authorities for what is now happening to these people. Put the blame on the MEN in this so-called church who are responsible!!!!!

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:30 AM
I just don't want to see victims be revictimized if it's not necessary. I'm also concerned with the comment that CPS hasn't discussed interviewing methods with their employees. What else haven't they discussed with their employees? Is there any kind of quality control going on? I'm all for stopping the cults that perpetuate's abuse. But I don't want to hurt the kids further to accomplish that. The kids are the entire point of this whole thing. I hope no one working this case forgets that.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:31 AM
We as a free thinking society? Think about what that means. It means allowing for differences of thought. As far as religions go, all religions are man made if you get right down to the basics.

As far as inbreeding and disease, that is hysteria at work. Of course some of these splinter groups are going to experience the results of inbreeding.

But aside from the propaganda, this is one crazy mans (Warren Jeff's) cream of the crop. This is a lot of really healthy women and children. Isn't that what your own eyes tell you when you look at pictures of them?

When I say "free thinking," I'm definitley not talking about any religious groups. And no, it's not hysteria. Here in Las Vegas, we've had numerous reports in recent years advising of the birth defects that are occuring within these sects. They may be self-contained as long as everything is ok - but when there is a problem, they come out of hiding and into mainstream healthcare. Otherwise, we would never know what's really happening. Seriously, there are maybe 3 or 4 surnames within these sects. How long coulld it take until there are problems? We've also had numerous reports on the Lost Boys and the construction companies run by the FLDS right here in Vegas. Look up what Warren Jeffs had in his possession when he was apprehended. Do you think all that cash came from his wives welfare gains?

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:34 AM
I just don't want to see victims be revictimized if it's not necessary. I'm also concerned with the comment that CPS hasn't discussed interviewing methods with their employees. What else haven't they discussed with their employees? Is there any kind of quality control going on? I'm all for stopping the cults that perpetuate's abuse. But I don't want to hurt the kids further to accomplish that. The kids are the entire point of this whole thing. I hope no one working this case forgets that.

I feel quite confident these children are being treated fairly and with all due respect. Don't believe everything you read in SLC. I guarantee, it will not be honestly reported in your area.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:38 AM
Like I said SS, the source of that article is suspect, but the pictures don't lie. Those don't look like healthy living conditions. Kids asleep with the lights on? Cots right up against each other? We are trying to improve things for them right? Texas probably is doing the best they can do. But IMO, it may not be good enough. BTW SS, when I mentioned the cell phones being taken away, I did not say it was the wrong thing to do. I merely pointed out the reason WHY.

Glow
04-14-2008, 02:41 AM
When I say "free thinking," I'm definitley not talking about any religious groups. And no, it's not hysteria. Here in Las Vegas, we've had numerous reports in recent years advising of the birth defects that are occuring within these sects. They may be self-contained as long as everything is ok - but when there is a problem, they come out of hiding and into mainstream healthcare. Otherwise, we would never know what's really happening. Seriously, there are maybe 3 or 4 surnames within these sects. How long coulld it take until there are problems? We've also had numerous reports on the Lost Boys and the construction companies run by the FLDS right here in Vegas. Look up what Warren Jeffs had in his possession when he was apprehended. Do you think all that cash came from his wives welfare gains?

I thought you said there were already problems?

quote:

"We've also had numerous reports on the Lost Boys and the construction companies run by the FLDS right here in Vegas. Look up what Warren Jeffs had in his possession when he was apprehended. Do you think all that cash came from his wives welfare gains?"

my answer,

No I think that the majority of it came from the government. You know, the same government that is involved right now?

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:44 AM
Like I said SS, the source of that article is suspect, but the pictures don't lie. Those don't look like healthy living conditions. Kids asleep with the lights on? Cots right up against each other? We are trying to improve things for them right? Texas probably is doing the best they can do. But IMO, it may not be good enough. BTW SS, when I mentioned the cell phones being taken away, I did not say it was the wrong thing to do. I merely pointed out the reason WHY.

It's going to take some time SuziQ. If you think about it, this is an enormous influx into any state system. They're not all going to be in huge private homes with princess phones tomorrow. Maybe right now, it's best to keep them with family members. I hope Utah and Arizona aren't just seeing what you're seeing. Kids are unbelievably resilient and they will be ok. Could you say the same if they would be left where they were?

Glow
04-14-2008, 02:44 AM
BTW SS, when I mentioned the cell phones being taken away, I did not say it was the wrong thing to do. I merely pointed out the reason WHY.

Well I am willing to say it was the wrong thing to do. I understand why it was necessary though. Have to keep public opinion from getting stirred up :rolleyes:

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:46 AM
I thought you said there were already problems?

quote:

"We've also had numerous reports on the Lost Boys and the construction companies run by the FLDS right here in Vegas. Look up what Warren Jeffs had in his possession when he was apprehended. Do you think all that cash came from his wives welfare gains?"

my answer,

No I think that the majority of it came from the government. You know, the same government that is involved right now?

What??? This makes no sense! There have been problems for a LONG time. The problem here is how long it's taken the government to respond!

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 02:46 AM
The "authorities"? Arent we the authorities?No, we are not. The State of Texas is. They are dealing with a situation which has not been dealt with in the past and have taken on an enormous job.

I applaud them for finally taking a stand against this depraved society of men who have female children for the purpose of molesting them!! They are every bit as bad as the pedophiles we have on our sex offender registries around the world and in our prisons! Personally, I find them worse because they are doing it in the "name of God". :furious:

Truly
04-14-2008, 02:49 AM
Like I said SS, the source of that article is suspect, but the pictures don't lie. Those don't look like healthy living conditions. Kids asleep with the lights on? Cots right up against each other? We are trying to improve things for them right? Texas probably is doing the best they can do. But IMO, it may not be good enough.

Suzi, c'mon. 'Healthy living conditions'? This is temporary emergency shelter, and it looks a whole lot better than most emergency shelters. Clean, well lit. If all anybody can find to complain about is that the kids fell asleep while the lights were still on...then this effort gets a gold star.

The kids are not being raped!!!! That is already a 100% improvement from their prior situation.

And the source of that article is so laughably not journalism, it isn't even funny.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:50 AM
I feel quite confident these children are being treated fairly and with all due respect. Don't believe everything you read in SLC. I guarantee, it will not be honestly reported in your area.

Why would a pro LDS owned newspaper, go out of their way to favorably report on something they have no part of and basically can't stand? If anything ,they would be reporting everything they could get their hands on against the FLDS. Not the other way around. They report both sides of the story and they are called pro FLDS. Are you trying to insinuate that because SLC is in Utah, that media here is not capable of reporting the TRUTH? If that's the type of thinking you want to go with fine. But try this one out. Maybe the papers in Texas are pro....Texas authorities. I do not think so at all. But it makes about a much sense as thinking that way about SLC media.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:50 AM
I see you are all falling into the same trap that the American public fell into in 1953 - seeing nothing but innocent people being ripped away from their way of life. That's all fine, if their way of life wasn't based on mind control and pedophila! Let's try to keep our eyes on the ball here.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:53 AM
Suzi, c'mon. 'Healthy living conditions'? This is temporary emergency shelter, and it looks a whole lot better than most emergency shelters. Clean, well lit. If all anybody can find to complain about is that the kids fell asleep while the lights were still on...then this effort gets a gold star.

The kids are not being raped!!!! That is already a 100% improvement from their prior situation.

You may think it's ok and want to downplay the significants of what I see in the pics. I'm merely concerned that the kids are treated the right way.

Glow
04-14-2008, 02:54 AM
No, we are not. The State of Texas is.

so "We The People" are not in charge? Now that is scary.

I understand that the majority of people have been lulled into a "take it easy" mindset, but I cant even comprehend a mindset that allows the state to take over.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:55 AM
Why would a pro LDS owned newspaper, go out of their way to favorably report on something they have no part of and basically can't stand? If anything ,they would be reporting everything they could get their hands on against the FLDS. Not the other way around. They report both sides of the story and they are called pro FLDS. Are you trying to insinuate that because SLC is in Utah, that media here is not capable of reporting the TRUTH? If that's the type of thinking you want to go with fine. But try this one out. Maybe the papers in Texas are pro....Texas authorities. I do not think so at all. But it makes about a much sense as thinking that way about SLC media.

Oh you are so wrong! If you don't think the LDS secretly supports the FLDS way of life, you have been brainwashed yourself! They can speak out about it as much as they want, but actions speak louder than words and the Mormons have NEVER taken any action against the FLDS and they never will. And if you think the media in SLC is unbiased, you are sorely mistaken. Sorry. It's not just the papers in Texas reporting the truth, it's everywhere BUT Utah.

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 02:55 AM
Like I said SS, the source of that article is suspect, but the pictures don't lie. Those don't look like healthy living conditions. Kids asleep with the lights on? Cots right up against each other? We are trying to improve things for them right? Texas probably is doing the best they can do. But IMO, it may not be good enough. BTW SS, when I mentioned the cell phones being taken away, I did not say it was the wrong thing to do. I merely pointed out the reason WHY.Suzi~ The pictures are no different than the pictures I have seen this week here with the flooding going on and people having to go to shelters. Cots right up against each other, lights on at night for their own safety, and people looking as if they were terribly uncomfortable...when in fact...they are also lucky to be away from the danger they left behind. It is the way the system is designed to work in any and every emergency situation. This is working exactly the way it was set up to work and it is a slow process.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:56 AM
I'm going to post something that has been bothering me. I'm not posting this to side with or against anyone in this case. I am posting this because my heart breaks for the kids and I hope the shelter workers and physicians know what they are doing and are being as gentle and caring as they can be. If the below statements are true, then the authorities need to rethink their tactics. The children are already fearful of outsiders as it is. Don't do things that support that belief. There are a couple of pics from inside the shelter. I do not like what I see. It's also occured to me that this article is the reason the cellphones were taken away.


I'm reposting the original post I made regarding this subject. I could give a rats ass what the adults are put through. My main concern is the kids.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:57 AM
so "We The People" are not in charge? Now that is scary.

I understand that the majority of people have been lulled into a "take it easy" mindset, but I cant even comprehend a mindset that allows the state to take over.

Right. I'd much rather have the Warren Jeffs of the world calling the shots!

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:58 AM
I'm reposting the original post I made regarding this subject. I could give a rats ass what the adults are put through. My main concern is the kids.

Well then, picture a beautiful 14 or 15 year old girl with a sweaty, horny, perverted 50 + year old man on top of her. How does that make you feel?

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 02:59 AM
Oh you are so wrong! If you don't think the LDS secretly supports the FLDS way of life, you have been brainwashed yourself! They can speak out about it as much as they want, but actions speak louder than words and the Mormons have NEVER taken any action against the FLDS and they never will. And if you think the media in SLC is unbiased, you are sorely mistaken. Sorry. It's not just the papers in Texas reporting the truth, it's everywhere BUT Utah.

Fairy, what is the LDS church supposed to do? They are not law enforcement. You speak prejudice towards Utah media that I haven't seen for years. It's really sad to see that.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 02:59 AM
Suzi~ The pictures are no different than the pictures I have seen this week here with the flooding going on and people having to go to shelters. Cots right up against each other, lights on at night for their own safety, and people looking as if they were terribly uncomfortable...when in fact...they are also lucky to be away from the danger they left behind. It is the way the system is designed to work in any and every emergency situation. This is working exactly the way it was set up to work and it is a slow process.

Thank you SS - I totally agree.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 03:03 AM
Fairy, what is the LDS church supposed to do? They are not law enforcement. You speak prejudice towards Utah media that I haven't seen for years. It's really sad to see that.

Puleeze, I have spent a lot of time in Utah and I can tell you first hand, they have one agenda and one agenda only. Read the book of Mormon and you will see that the LDS and the FLDS are learning from the exact same source. The only difference is that the LDS has publicly renounced polygamy and the FLDS - the "fundamentalists" are still living the book word for word. If you think the state of Utah is not controlled by the LDS, you are sorely mistaken.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:03 AM
Well then, picture a beautiful 14 or 15 year old girl with a sweaty, horny, perverted 50 + year old man on top of her. How does that make you feel?

First off, I would like to know how my concern for the kids current well being is deserving of the comment you just made to me. A few posters have equated asking questions about how this situation is being handled to supporting the FLDS sect. And you are coming awfully close to saying that to me. Very uncalled for!!!

ETA: some have been accused of supporting pedophelia for asking questions.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:04 AM
Puleeze, I have spent a lot of time in Utah and I can tell you first hand, they have one agenda and one agenda only. Read the book of Mormon and you will see that the LDS and the FLDS are learning from the exact same source. The only difference is that the LDS has publicly renounced polygamy and the FLDS - the "fundamentalists" are still living the book word for word. If you think the state of Utah is not controlled by the LDS, you are sorely mistaken.

Goodnight Fairy, I prefer to have my discussions with people that live in the year 2008. Try to catch up.

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 03:05 AM
so "We The People" are not in charge? Now that is scary.

I understand that the majority of people have been lulled into a "take it easy" mindset, but I cant even comprehend a mindset that allows the state to take over. If you honestly believe that the general public in America runs anything...you are sadly mistaken. We vote for local government to run things, but we are not ever in charge of what they do. "We The People" don't even actually elect our own President! (The Electoral College does!)

I haven't been lulled into any kind of mindset. The states are in charge and only the Federal Government can step when it is legal for them to do so. "We The People" have no jurisdiction in a criminal case.

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 03:06 AM
First off, I would like to know how my concern for the kids current well being is deserving of the comment you just made to me. A few posters have equated asking questions about how this situation is being handled to supporting the FLDS sect. And you are coming awfully close to saying that to me. Very uncalled for!!!

The difference is, these children are currently out of harms way - whereas they would still be vulnerable within their sect. It has been a week since they've been taken away. Give the state of Texas a chance to get the situation under control. They have stated that they are having difficulty in even determining who these kid's parents are - because the kids don't know! Do you know who your parent are?

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 03:08 AM
Goodnight Fairy, I prefer to have my discussions with people that live in the year 2008. Try to catch up.

I do live in 2008 - outside of the state of Utah. There is a big difference.

Truly
04-14-2008, 03:08 AM
First off, I would like to know how my concern for the kids current well being is deserving of the comment you just made to me. A few posters have equated asking questions about how this situation is being handled to supporting the FLDS sect. And you are coming awfully close to saying that to me. Very uncalled for!!!

Suzi, which is worse for the kids? That is the simple question here.

Clean, safe emergency shelter...or back to the compound to be raped?

Which is it?

Fairy1
04-14-2008, 03:11 AM
Suzi, which is worse? That is the simple question here.

Clean, safe emergency shelter...or back to the compound to be raped?

Which is it?

There is truly no question here - as far as I'm concerned. Whether they know they're being raped or whether they believe it is how it's supposed to be makes no difference to me. The men in charge of these FLDS sects know exactly what they're doing - even if their victims do not.

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 03:14 AM
Suzi~ I know you are a compassionate person and it is unsettling to see the pictures. I know you want what is best for those children. I promise they are not being harmed in any way by being in that shelter for the moment. It is uncomfortable, not unsafe. It would be a traumatic experience for those children even if they were in fabulous hotels with room service.

I would think being so close to the children they are familiar with and love is far more comforting to them than anything anyone can do for them right now. Think of the positive side of it. :)

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:14 AM
Suzi, which is worse? That is the simple question here.

Clean, safe emergency shelter...or back to the compound to be raped?

Which is it?

That's the only choice? And when have I ever said that? And why would I think that? My opinion is my opinion. We are allowed that aren't we? I'm concerned for the kids.

LinasK
04-14-2008, 03:14 AM
There may be a good chance that a child, especially a female that isn't menstruating yet, hasn't been sexually abused at all.

There have been reports that the fathers were "preparing" them for marriage. I take that to mean grooming them, possible molestation. If so, the authorities need to check all the girls. We even have members at here at WS who have been molested as babies. I know this. Even Warren Jeffs own nephews were sodomized as boys.

My uncle used to brush up against me from behind when I was 4 or 5, was it as bad as when he molested me? No, was it still traumatic and scary? Hell, yes!


f the women and children had not been held captive, raped, molested, and treated as mere possessions to be traded as breeding cattle for old men...none of this would be taking place. Do NOT blame the authorities for what is now happening to these people. Put the blame on the MEN in this so-called church who are responsible!!!!!:clap::clap::clap:

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Seriously Searching
f the women and children had not been held captive, raped, molested, and treated as mere possessions to be traded as breeding cattle for old men...none of this would be taking place. Do NOT blame the authorities for what is now happening to these people. Put the blame on the MEN in this so-called church who are responsible!!!!!

***

I meant to address the your above post a bit back. I'm not blaming the authorities. All I am saying is I hope that what is being done in the most caring and compasionate way possible.