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Leila
04-14-2008, 03:21 AM
I'm going to post something that has been bothering me. I'm not posting this to side with or against anyone in this case. I am posting this because my heart breaks for the kids and I hope the shelter workers and physicians know what they are doing and are being as gentle and caring as they can be. If the below statements are true, then the authorities need to rethink their tactics. The children are already fearful of outsiders as it is. Don't do things that support that belief. There are a couple of pics from inside the shelter. I do not like what I see. It's also occured to me that this article is the reason the cellphones were taken away.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

(snip)

Kathleen believes some of the child welfare workers have used frightening tactics when interviewing the children. She said she heard one tell a child, "If you do not tell us these things, we will take you away from your mother and father and you will never see them again." Texas Department of Family and Protective Services officials say they've made great efforts to try to make the children and women comfortable. DPS officials say they are interviewing the children in an effort to establish their identities, but have not discussed interviewing methods.


FLDS children and adult are extremely modest and they wear long dresses and long-sleeved shirts. The mothers said the children have also received physical examinations from medical workers and it has been traumatic to some. "Some of the children have come out crying and screaming," she said. "They were touching their bodies in inappropriate ways."


I'm having some real reservations about this article. The women mentioned in the article, who gave their first names only, are Dorothy, Paula. Kathleen, and Barbara. I checked these first names against the listed names of parents on the subpoena published in the Eldorado Success. There is no Dorothy on that list. Of the other names, the only woman named Paula and Barbara are Paula and Barbara Jessop. There is a Kathleen Steed and a Cathleen Jessop.

The article states..................

The women, who only provided their first names, called and spoke to reporters at the Yearning For Zion Ranch, about 50 miles away, via cell phone.
Dorothy described the anxiety many of the children feel being away from home, especially at night.


The FLDS has a long history of not speaking to outsiders. But, evidently after talking with those at the YFZ compound by cell phone, probably the men still left at the compound, they were willing to speak with reporters.


If the woman who were removed and are staying at Fort Concha were in regular contact with the men at the YFZ compound, I can easily see the possibility of them - the men - using the press to their advantage. The men would tell the woman that they will arrange for a telephone interview with a newspaper reporter, and tell the women to say negative things about the conditions at Fort Concha and that they aren't being treated properly. The woman, who normally wouldn't speak to an outsider, much less a newspaper reporter, would do as their husbands commanded.

Warren Jeffs made a statement that it's ok to lie to your enemies (not an exact quote), so the men left at the YFZ compound would use this philosophy to their advantage in this situation.

As for the pictures...........yes, they are very crowded. We see this in many emergency shelters, like in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. It's difficult to accommodate many people on short notice in an emergency. Though crowded, it looks clean and somewhat orderly.

Truly
04-14-2008, 03:31 AM
Goodnight Fairy, I prefer to have my discussions with people that live in the year 2008. Try to catch up.


That was just plain rude. Fairy has made some very thoughtful and insightful posts which many people agree with.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:35 AM
Leila, I agree, the source is suspect. And yes they have been taught to lie.

We all know the government is not perfect. The comparison of disaster areas have been used here. Have we all forgotten what happened during Katrina with the FEMA mess? There is nothing wrong with asking if it could be done better. That's all I am saying. It's not indicative of me being pro FLDS or not. It's not indicative of me being pro Texas or not. It's not indicative of me blaming the authorities for anything. It's only indicative of me being concerned for the kids.

SeriouslySearching
04-14-2008, 03:37 AM
I think I best bow out of this discussion. I recall asking if we had supporters of the FLDS here and the answer I got was no. I find this not to be the case and I don't care to debate the issue of what their church believes or does not believe.

What I do know is that repeatedly raping girls is not acceptable and should be punished with life in prison. There is no excuse or defense for it.

(This has nothing to do with you, Suzi~ Hugs~)

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:39 AM
That was just plain rude. Fairy has made some very thoughtful and insightful posts which many people agree with.

Sorry, but I thought this post from fairy was rude.

Oh you are so wrong! If you don't think the LDS secretly supports the FLDS way of life, you have been brainwashed yourself! They can speak out about it as much as they want, but actions speak louder than words and the Mormons have NEVER taken any action against the FLDS and they never will. And if you think the media in SLC is unbiased, you are sorely mistaken. Sorry. It's not just the papers in Texas reporting the truth, it's everywhere BUT Utah.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 03:42 AM
I think I best bow out of this discussion. I recall asking if we had supporters of the FLDS here and the answer I got was no. I find this not to be the case and I don't care to debate the issue of what their church believes or does not believe.

What I do know is that repeatedly raping girls is not acceptable and should be punished with life in prison. There is no excuse or defense for it.

(This has nothing to do with you, Suzi~ Hugs~)

I'm going with you.

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 03:58 AM
Ok, I have been out all day and have just been reading to catch up.

Suzi, you look at the situation and see overcrowding and uncomfortable conditions. And for someone who lives in a one family home, that would most definately be true. But think of this situation. Which would be more traumatic. To take a combined family of a man, several wives and multiple children who all lived together and ate with multiple families and where it is entirely possible- even probable that the kids not only shared rooms, but may have shared beds. Split them up, separate them all, placing them in individual situations either individually or in very small groups in a strange place. What they consider family split, friends gone.

This way for the kids, they have their friends, they may have several of their mothers or at least women familiar to them. They still eat and sleep together. Would you have it be any different?

In reading past posts I noticed that the question came up again about why all the kids, including the boys had to be removed.

Past points have been been made that in some ways the men were also victims. They were raised with this doctrine, ordered to abide by it by the prophet, and told their eternal salvation depends on it. In some ways I can agree. I still think they have to be held accountable but it is a good point. So every little boy who lived in that compound will also be exposed to that and would continue to be exposed to that if they were left in the compound.

Prepubescent girls. The point has been made that the mothers of the children are powerless, they were raised to believe in the doctrine, were powerless to stop it and were told their eternal salvation depended on their being forcibly married to a man of the prophets choosing. So if the prepubescent girls were left in the compound, they would continue to grow up under that doctrine. It is called "grooming". Grooming is to prepare a child for abuse.

When CPS investigates a home for a child being abused, if they determine that yes a child has been abused, all children are removed whether they show signs of abuse or not. Simply because they can show that abuse exists in the household.

Some have feared that the abuse cannot be proven because of no records (though I believe I read they did get some records of "marriages") and because the women/girls won't talk. But whether they can prove the marriages or not, they will still be able to prove a lot of the abuse. Simply by doing DNA testing and comparing the ages of the children, who is pregnant and how old they are. A pregnant 15 year old, a 17 year old mother with a 3 year old child or a mother age 17 with three kids, it is going to be pretty apparent that the sexual abuse existed.

Mothers have been taken with the kids. Well, I have a little problem with that too. If they were any other mother, the kids would have been taken, the mothers wouldn't, and the mother's would only see the kids if the kids were at the hearings. So yes, the mother's here have been given special treatment. Mother's have been charged. Well, not yet. Possibly they might be. Other mother's have permitted their children's abuse, and have been charged right along with the man. Will they be given special treatment there too? I don't know, but it is possible. I can see it both ways. Yes, they were powerless. And they were raised that way. And they thought they had no choice. But again, the same situation existed for the men. So do you give the men special treatment too?

LinasK
04-14-2008, 04:04 AM
Ok, I have been out all day and have just been reading to catch up.

Suzi, you look at the situation and see overcrowding and uncomfortable conditions. And for someone who lives in a one family home, that would most definately be true. But think of this situation. Which would be more traumatic. To take a combined family of a man, several wives and multiple children who all lived together and ate with multiple families and where it is entirely possible- even probable that the kids not only shared rooms, but may have shared beds. Split them up, separate them all, placing them in individual situations either individually or in very small groups in a strange place. What they consider family split, friends gone.

This way for the kids, they have their friends, they may have several of their mothers or at least women familiar to them. They still eat and sleep together. Would you have it be any different?

In reading past posts I noticed that the question came up again about why all the kids, including the boys had to be removed.

Past points have been been made that in some ways the men were also victims. They were raised with this doctrine, ordered to abide by it by the prophet, and told their eternal salvation depends on it. In some ways I can agree. I still think they have to be held accountable but it is a good point. So every little boy who lived in that compound will also be exposed to that and would continue to be exposed to that if they were left in the compound.

Prepubescent girls. The point has been made that the mothers of the children are powerless, they were raised to believe in the doctrine, were powerless to stop it and were told their eternal salvation depended on their being forcibly married to a man of the prophets choosing. So if the prepubescent girls were left in the compound, they would continue to grow up under that doctrine. It is called "grooming". Grooming is to prepare a child for abuse.

When CPS investigates a home for a child being abused, if they determine that yes a child has been abused, all children are removed whether they show signs of abuse or not. Simply because they can show that abuse exists in the household.

Some have feared that the abuse cannot be proven because of no records (though I believe I read they did get some records of "marriages") and because the women/girls won't talk. But whether they can prove the marriages or not, they will still be able to prove a lot of the abuse. Simply by doing DNA testing and comparing the ages of the children, who is pregnant and how old they are. A pregnant 15 year old, a 17 year old mother with a 3 year old child or a mother age 17 with three kids, it is going to be pretty apparent that the sexual abuse existed.

Mothers have been taken with the kids. Well, I have a little problem with that too. If they were any other mother, the kids would have been taken, the mothers wouldn't, and the mother's would only see the kids if the kids were at the hearings. So yes, the mother's here have been given special treatment. Mother's have been charged. Well, not yet. Possibly they might be. Other mother's have permitted their children's abuse, and have been charged right along with the man. Will they be given special treatment there too? I don't know, but it is possible. I can see it both ways. Yes, they were powerless. And they were raised that way. And they thought they had no choice. But again, the same situation existed for the men. So do you give the men special treatment too?

Excellent explanatory post mysteriew!:clap::clap::clap:

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 04:09 AM
Ok, I have been out all day and have just been reading to catch up.

Suzi, you look at the situation and see overcrowding and uncomfortable conditions. And for someone who lives in a one family home, that would most definately be true. But think of this situation. Which would be more traumatic. To take a combined family of a man, several wives and multiple children who all lived together and ate with multiple families and where it is entirely possible- even probable that the kids not only shared rooms, but may have shared beds. Split them up, separate them all, placing them in individual situations either individually or in very small groups in a strange place. What they consider family split, friends gone.



All I'm saying is that I hope that what is being done is being done as caring and compassionately as possible. Is that being done? Fantiastic! A valid concern IMO.

Ok, now I really need to go. I'm supposed to be up in four hours. Goodnight Mysteri.

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 04:15 AM
All I'm saying is that I hope that what is being done is being done as caring and compassionately as possible. Is that being done? Fantiastic! A valid concern IMO.

Ok, now I really need to go. I'm supposed to be up in four hours. Goodnight Mysteri.

I understood that it was concern on your part SuziQ. Goodnight.

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 04:32 AM
Excellent explanatory post mysteriew!:clap::clap::clap:

LOL, I also forgot to mention that child abuse, sexual abuse and poligamy is not the only crimes that have have been alleged here. Incest has also been alleged. Incest severe enough and long standing enough that it has been thought to have caused increased rate of birth defects.

The mothers who say they were "away from the compound" during the raid. I agree with the state. First, they should have to prove they are parents (DNA), then they should check with the father of the children to see if he disputes the mothers right to be with the children, they then should have to prove their residency, if they prove residency in Texas then yes let them stay with their kids if they want. But since they are out and want in, if they go in, they shouldn't be permitted to go out until the situation is resolved and their children are either put into their custody or placed in foster care.

Rumor, and yes at this point I would call it a rumor that the kids are being coerced to give info about their parents and their situation. Should it be investigated? Yes. But should we start blaming the CPS yet? I would say no. With out investigation who knows if it really happened. FLDS was able to negate any legal claims at Short Creek through exploitation of heart wrenching pictures of children pulled from mother arms. Sorry, but it happens every day with CPS removals in abuse cases. It is tough, but sometimes necessary. But FLDS exploited that picture and since it worked before, I think they will try it again. If they don't have pictures they will try words and rumors. They know they will have trouble when the evidence starts proving the allegations, so they will try to confuse the issues just like any other criminal. So anything that comes from FLDS at this point I will look at with suspicion unless an investigation proves it.

Leila
04-14-2008, 05:03 AM
Leila, I agree, the source is suspect. And yes they have been taught to lie.

We all know the government is not perfect. The comparison of disaster areas have been used here. Have we all forgotten what happened during Katrina with the FEMA mess? There is nothing wrong with asking if it could be done better. That's all I am saying. It's not indicative of me being pro FLDS or not. It's not indicative of me being pro Texas or not. It's not indicative of me blaming the authorities for anything. It's only indicative of me being concerned for the kids.

SuzyQ...........we all are concerned about the children. We want them to be comfortable and free from harm, with as little trauma as possible. We want them to have a good future.

I only question the veracity of that article. I feel it was intentionally a negative article, manipulated by the FLDS. I don't fault the Deseret News. They're no different than any other newspaper in that they scored a coup.........they got an exclusive, inside report, and are giving each other high-fives that they scooped the other newspapers.

The two pictures that accompanied the article were shot with cell phones by the women quoted in the article, who's intention was to paint a negative picture of their situation. They could have snapped a picture of the boys playing ball or the children playing on the playground equipment, but they chose to send pictures of their crowded quarters.

I find myself thinking of what the CNN reporter on the scene said sometime in the past few days. He reported that the children were doing well, playing with toys they've never seen before. He said some of the younger woman had sought out the social workers. He then said that some of the older women were what he referred to as the "enforcers", who's job appeared to be to remind the others of the rules they live by. I tend to think the "enforcers" may have been the source of the story.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 06:47 AM
Leila, I agree, the source is suspect. And yes they have been taught to lie.

We all know the government is not perfect. The comparison of disaster areas have been used here. Have we all forgotten what happened during Katrina with the FEMA mess? There is nothing wrong with asking if it could be done better. That's all I am saying. It's not indicative of me being pro FLDS or not. It's not indicative of me being pro Texas or not. It's not indicative of me blaming the authorities for anything. It's only indicative of me being concerned for the kids.

Suzi, I might have an answer for you on the question of the temporary shelter. Please understand that this is speculation and not sourced.

While reading articles about the Eldorado compound I came across one where the locals were very concerned and ended up having a meeting with the FLDS leaders for a question and answer session. One of the questions was how many people would be living there? The response was no more than 200 men, woman and children. The were very clear that they were building this facility to accommodate 200 people.

I think that LE went in without the knowledge that there were 400+ children. I also don't think that they went in with the intention of taking each and every child. Anyway, I think that they're probably doing the very best under these circumstances.

Pepper
04-14-2008, 07:49 AM
Hi philamena,

simple answer------ yes if you go by Texas law today. No if you go by Texas law 2 years ago when the legal age was 14.

my not simple answer would be that a girl/woman of any age should never be forced to have sex against her wishes.

The facts are that in 2002, more than 17,000 girls aged 14 or under became pregnant nationwide, and more than a quarter million American girls aged 15-17 became pregnant that same year. Do you think that all of them were wanting to have sex?

Anyone of any age that is forced to have sex against her will is a victim of sexual abuse.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 08:17 AM
I don't understand what the law two years ago has to do with anything. The law as it stands says that it's illegal for children to be married. If we're looking at historical laws, it also used to be legal to own slaves, women weren't allowed to vote, and exploit children for labor.

Floh
04-14-2008, 08:21 AM
Ok, I have been out all day and have just been reading to catch up.

Suzi, you look at the situation and see overcrowding and uncomfortable conditions. And for someone who lives in a one family home, that would most definately be true. But think of this situation. Which would be more traumatic. To take a combined family of a man, several wives and multiple children who all lived together and ate with multiple families and where it is entirely possible- even probable that the kids not only shared rooms, but may have shared beds. Split them up, separate them all, placing them in individual situations either individually or in very small groups in a strange place. What they consider family split, friends gone.

This way for the kids, they have their friends, they may have several of their mothers or at least women familiar to them. They still eat and sleep together. Would you have it be any different?

In reading past posts I noticed that the question came up again about why all the kids, including the boys had to be removed.

Past points have been been made that in some ways the men were also victims. They were raised with this doctrine, ordered to abide by it by the prophet, and told their eternal salvation depends on it. In some ways I can agree. I still think they have to be held accountable but it is a good point. So every little boy who lived in that compound will also be exposed to that and would continue to be exposed to that if they were left in the compound.

Prepubescent girls. The point has been made that the mothers of the children are powerless, they were raised to believe in the doctrine, were powerless to stop it and were told their eternal salvation depended on their being forcibly married to a man of the prophets choosing. So if the prepubescent girls were left in the compound, they would continue to grow up under that doctrine. It is called "grooming". Grooming is to prepare a child for abuse.

When CPS investigates a home for a child being abused, if they determine that yes a child has been abused, all children are removed whether they show signs of abuse or not. Simply because they can show that abuse exists in the household.

Some have feared that the abuse cannot be proven because of no records (though I believe I read they did get some records of "marriages") and because the women/girls won't talk. But whether they can prove the marriages or not, they will still be able to prove a lot of the abuse. Simply by doing DNA testing and comparing the ages of the children, who is pregnant and how old they are. A pregnant 15 year old, a 17 year old mother with a 3 year old child or a mother age 17 with three kids, it is going to be pretty apparent that the sexual abuse existed.

Mothers have been taken with the kids. Well, I have a little problem with that too. If they were any other mother, the kids would have been taken, the mothers wouldn't, and the mother's would only see the kids if the kids were at the hearings. So yes, the mother's here have been given special treatment. Mother's have been charged. Well, not yet. Possibly they might be. Other mother's have permitted their children's abuse, and have been charged right along with the man. Will they be given special treatment there too? I don't know, but it is possible. I can see it both ways. Yes, they were powerless. And they were raised that way. And they thought they had no choice. But again, the same situation existed for the men. So do you give the men special treatment too?

what you've written here is very, very good. thank you.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 08:34 AM
Letter sent to the governor, note signatures:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/04-08/0414polygamist_mothers_letter.pdf

Floh
04-14-2008, 08:38 AM
Letter sent to the governor, note signatures:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/04-08/0414polygamist_mothers_letter.pdf

All gut-wrenching. mostly lies, i believe. :(

golfmom
04-14-2008, 08:41 AM
All gut-wrenching. mostly lies, i believe. :(

Did you notice that who ever signed, signed for all three women?

Floh
04-14-2008, 08:50 AM
Did you notice that who ever signed, signed for all three women?

Yep. whoever signed clearly never took 'Fraud, 101' class. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mostlylurking
04-14-2008, 09:03 AM
Glow,
Simple question-------
If children under the age of 16, who lived at the compound were forced to have sex, do you consider that sexual abuse?

Not Glow, but checking in on this answer.
Any person of any age who is forced to have sex is a victim of sexual abuse. Sex must be consentual, otherwise it is RAPE.

ThoughtFox
04-14-2008, 09:09 AM
I am not up to date on this thread, but I have to say that from the beginning, the local officials have been complaining about "what a burden" this is. For all we know, they may have written that letter to the governor, especially since for days they didn't know the names of the women and children! I am being sarcastic, but if women will allow their teenage daughters to be raped, and their sons to be beaten, and they don't try to run away, then why shouldn't we expect them to be desperate to get back to not having responsibility anymore.

Yes, I'm angry and I'm cynical about these women. I think the kids are better off where they are, but I'm just waiting for Texas to dump them back into that compound due to complaints of overcrowding.

What's better? Sharing a dormitory, or being beaten daily? Being raped? Being told you are a girl and your only hope of heaven is to marry an old man with 20 other wives.

Gimme a break! :bang:

golfmom
04-14-2008, 09:11 AM
Not Glow, but checking in on this answer.
Any person of any age who is forced to have sex is a victim of sexual abuse. Sex must be consentual, otherwise it is RAPE.

The only abuse that is clear here is that these people as part of their religious beliefs "marry" girls as young as 12 or 13. A practice that was mainstream legal in Texas 75 years ago.

This is not even "alleged" to be happening in the case of the infants, the toddlers, the preschoolers, the elementary aged and so on. And yet hundreds of them are being held. And their mothers are stuck in the legal crack. Why?

ML, Glow's point is that Texas is wrong because they changed their laws and because the "allegations" don't include infants, toddlers, and preschoolers whatever the sect is doing with the girls should be A-O.K.

mostlylurking
04-14-2008, 09:31 AM
ML, Glow's point is that Texas is wrong because they changed their laws and because the "allegations" don't include infants, toddlers, and preschoolers whatever the sect is doing with the girls should be A-O.K.

Golfmom (love your caption by the way)
I was responding to philamema's question & just acknowledging that I was not Glow in responding, which is who the question was directed to.

As far as allegations go, it seems to me from all that I have read thus far, that the suspicions of any and all abuse were enough for CPS to pull all the kids out in what was probably not an anticipated move by them when they went in in the first place. I don't think we have even seen the beginning of what all the charges will be when this is done & I believe it will go down to the infant level -- maybe not sexually at that level, but in other ways, though, I will not be surprised if it is sexually.....

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 09:38 AM
He then said that some of the older women were what he referred to as the "enforcers", who's job appeared to be to remind the others of the rules they live by. I tend to think the "enforcers" may have been the source of the story.

The enforcers worry me. Note that one of the womens complaints, at least to the Deseret News, (I haven't read the letter to the gov yet) is that 25 women are being kept away from the kids. And then the highly regarded woman in Trents photos that resembles Warren Jeffs.

curious1
04-14-2008, 09:50 AM
I agree with you Adnoid. What a job they have in front of them.

I don't feel this is in anyway associated with church. Its a bunch of dirty old sex offenders who rape little girls!

Don't forget it is not just little girls. Didn't 2 nephews of one of the Jeff's guys come forward and say they had been raped when they were younger?

Linda7NJ
04-14-2008, 09:52 AM
They found the linens messed up in the temple beds, and sex toys, and you have eyewitnesses- pregnant 16-year-olds "married" off, but not legally married, and FLDS women who have left who can testify to the types of abuses.

The mothers should not be in contact with their minor children because of witness tampering and brain-washing. The kids will get plenty of nurturing from people who care that they were abused, such as social workers and foster families.


Speaking as a former foster parent.........the LAST place those children need to be is foster care. Most of the homes I was familiar with I wouldn't trust with my dog for a weekend.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 09:54 AM
Golfmom (love your caption by the way)
I was responding to philamema's question & just acknowledging that I was not Glow in responding, which is who the question was directed to.

As far as allegations go, it seems to me from all that I have read thus far, that the suspicions of any and all abuse were enough for CPS to pull all the kids out in what was probably not an anticipated move by them when they went in in the first place. I don't think we have even seen the beginning of what all the charges will be when this is done & I believe it will go down to the infant level -- maybe not sexually at that level, but in other ways, though, I will not be surprised if it is sexually.....

Thank you!

I agree with the section you wrote that I bolded. ADD to that, that the sect itself told Eldorado officials that the compound was built to house 200 residents, and you can see how Texas really got blindsided by the numbers.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 09:54 AM
More on the cellphone removal.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8917397

(snips)
The order, signed Sunday morning by 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, came after someone used a cell phone to send out images of living conditions at one shelter and to speak with a newspaper reporter.
***
Attorneys for the children told the judge this weekend that cell phones needed to be removed to prevent 'improper communication, tampering with witnesses and interference with the attorney-client relationship.'

golfmom
04-14-2008, 09:55 AM
Speaking as a former foster parent.........the LAST place those children need to be is foster care. Most of the homes I was familiar with I wouldn't trust with my dog for a weekend.

ohhhh Linda, I am very concerned about the foster care for these children!

Linda7NJ
04-14-2008, 09:58 AM
More on the cellphone removal.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8917397

(snips)
The order, signed Sunday morning by 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, came after someone used a cell phone to send out images of living conditions at one shelter and to speak with a newspaper reporter.
***
Attorneys for the children told the judge this weekend that cell phones needed to be removed to prevent 'improper communication, tampering with witnesses and interference with the attorney-client relationship.'


anyone have a link to the photo's of living conditions and the interview given to a reporter?

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 10:05 AM
Very interesting article about how Polygamist women are dressed and the reason behind it.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8908641

Clothing styles for the Apostolic United Brethren of Bluffdale run the gamut. Tom Green's wives wore a knee-length version of Jessica McClintock's Gunny Sack dress from the 1980s and their hair in curling waves down their backs. And the Kingston women are allowed to dress how they choose - including showing cleavage and wearing tight clothing.
"They're more overtly sexual than other women in polygamist groups," says Rowenna Erickson, a former wife in the Kingston clan. "For other groups, the clothing is all about control and power."

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 10:08 AM
anyone have a link to the photo's of living conditions and the interview given to a reporter?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

sherri79
04-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Very interesting article about how Polygamist women are dressed and the reason behind it.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8908641

Clothing styles for the Apostolic United Brethren of Bluffdale run the gamut. Tom Green's wives wore a knee-length version of Jessica McClintock's Gunny Sack dress from the 1980s and their hair in curling waves down their backs. And the Kingston women are allowed to dress how they choose - including showing cleavage and wearing tight clothing.
"They're more overtly sexual than other women in polygamist groups," says Rowenna Erickson, a former wife in the Kingston clan. "For other groups, the clothing is all about control and power." thanks for the link. it was a very interesting article.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 10:16 AM
I haven't had enough coffee to remember, but has a gag order been put in place?

SewingDeb
04-14-2008, 10:18 AM
anyone have a link to the photo's of living conditions and the interview given to a reporter?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html

First Look Inside YFZ Ranch

barb0301
04-14-2008, 10:30 AM
I just don't want to see victims be revictimized if it's not necessary. I'm also concerned with the comment that CPS hasn't discussed interviewing methods with their employees. What else haven't they discussed with their employees?

I didn't read that article to mean they hadn't discussed interviewing methods with their employees, rather that they hadn't discussed interviewing employees with the press. All CPS intake workers are stringently trained in interviewing methods. They work with young children all the time, most of them very, very traumatized at being removed from their homes and loved ones. I am very suspect of the reports coming from the FLDS members about what the CPS workers are saying.

Remember, the CPS workers cannot divulge what individual children have said, so are at a disadvantage in the press. In order to protect the rights of privacy, they will be far more unlikely to come out and publicly respond to many of these allegations.

barb0301
04-14-2008, 10:31 AM
The "authorities"? Arent we the authorities?

I don't know about you, but I'm not properly trained in how to respond to a child abuse complaint either in law enforcement or CPS methods. I'm a citizen that has voted in the competent "authorities".

barb0301
04-14-2008, 10:40 AM
Well then, picture a beautiful 14 or 15 year old girl with a sweaty, horny, perverted 50 + year old man on top of her. How does that make you feel?

Fairy - I think you were very unfair to Suzi with this comment. If you've been following this thread at all, she's been very supportive of the actions taken by TX in all of this. Her concern for the children is genuine and based on pictures that we should all see and consider.

Linda7NJ
04-14-2008, 10:40 AM
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html

First Look Inside YFZ Ranch


I can't get the link to work

curious1
04-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Okay, can I just put my quick :twocents: in here? The arguement that it would have been legal for a 12 or 14 year old to marry in Texas 75 years ago is just not applicable. Why? 1) Well yes it would have been legal back then, but I think there would have been issues even back then if a 12 or 14 year old had been forced to marry against their will. 2) It ain't legal now.

Pepper
04-14-2008, 10:43 AM
Linda, it took awhile to load.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 10:47 AM
All CPS intake workers are stringently trained in interviewing methods. They work with young children all the time, most of them very, very traumatized at being removed from their homes and loved ones. I am very suspect of the reports coming from the FLDS members about what the CPS workers are saying.


In my original post I stated that "IF" what's being said is true. I also suspect the source of that article. I have no doubts that the women will use every opportunity they can to their advantage, whether their allegations are true or not.

CPS workers are strongly trained for the typical child abuse case. They do a job I couldn't stomach and I am glad they are their to do it. However, this situation is not the normal one they run into. This is a unique situation that may be deserving of a break from protocol.

ETA: I can't imagine having to deal with the enforcers.

barb0301
04-14-2008, 10:55 AM
Speaking as a former foster parent.........the LAST place those children need to be is foster care. Most of the homes I was familiar with I wouldn't trust with my dog for a weekend.

Speaking as another former foster parent, here in TX, I would disagree. Most of the homes I was familiar with were fantastic placements and the kids thrived. I know there are bad stories out there, but I was very, very impressed with the quality of the homes we dealt with over the 15 years.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 10:57 AM
There may be a good chance that a child, especially a female that isn't menstruating yet, hasn't been sexually abused at all.



If they ahve 416 girls and find 1 that hasn't been sexually abused, what difference does that make!?!?

Linda7NJ
04-14-2008, 10:58 AM
Linda, it took awhile to load.


I can't read it...perhaps there is too much traffic? I keep getting timed out messages:confused:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
The "authorities"? Arent we the authorities?

No we are not! If we were authorities, then we would all have a course in police.

barb0301
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
CPS workers are strongly trained for the typical child abuse case. They do a job I couldn't stomach and I am glad they are their to do it. However, this situation is not the normal one they run into. This is a unique situation that may be deserving of a break from protocol.

ETA: I can't imagine having to deal with the enforcers.

If you look at the quotes that are being attributed to the CPS workers, they are things that no trained worker would ever say to any child taken into custody, FLDS or otherwise. The quotes weren't about religion, culture, etc. They were "threats".

I will say that I'm sure, at some point, in an operation this massive, mistakes will be made. It's bound to happen. CPS isn't perfect.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:04 AM
Like I said SS, the source of that article is suspect, but the pictures don't lie. Those don't look like healthy living conditions. Kids asleep with the lights on? Cots right up against each other? We are trying to improve things for them right? Texas probably is doing the best they can do. But IMO, it may not be good enough. BTW SS, when I mentioned the cell phones being taken away, I did not say it was the wrong thing to do. I merely pointed out the reason WHY.

Suzi? What do you expect here? The government had to sweep in and get 400 + kids when they were only expecting 250 kids. I am sure coming up with a place for these kids to stay while the courts made a decision as to what to do.

We gotta keep in mind here, FDLS members have been caught in several lies before, whats to say they are not lying now.

I beleieve the state is doing an awesome job, with the circumstances they have. We are always going to have someone trying to make the state look bad, in any situation that may occur.

Linda7NJ
04-14-2008, 11:05 AM
Speaking as another former foster parent, here in TX, I would disagree. Most of the homes I was familiar with were fantastic placements and the kids thrived. I know there are bad stories out there, but I was very, very impressed with the quality of the homes we dealt with over the 15 years.

Well, I am certainly glad to hear that!

I was with a high fluting private agency and some of the homes were super nasty and a few of the foster parents themselves were just horrendous

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:06 AM
If you look at the quotes that are being attributed to the CPS workers, they are things that no trained worker would ever say to any child taken into custody, FLDS or otherwise. The quotes weren't about religion, culture, etc. They were "threats".

I will say that I'm sure, at some point, in an operation this massive, mistakes will be made. It's bound to happen. CPS isn't perfect.

Oh yes, I have doubts about whether that type of exchange ever took place.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:10 AM
Why would a pro LDS owned newspaper, go out of their way to favorably report on something they have no part of and basically can't stand? If anything ,they would be reporting everything they could get their hands on against the FLDS. Not the other way around. They report both sides of the story and they are called pro FLDS. Are you trying to insinuate that because SLC is in Utah, that media here is not capable of reporting the TRUTH? If that's the type of thinking you want to go with fine. But try this one out. Maybe the papers in Texas are pro....Texas authorities. I do not think so at all. But it makes about a much sense as thinking that way about SLC media.


Trust me, this is a biased paper suzi. Look at all the comments, supporting the FDLS, and bashing the state? People are making excuses for the FDLS actions, and basically calling the state, horible monsters, for stopping child rape.

Very very biased.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:11 AM
I see you are all falling into the same trap that the American public fell into in 1953 - seeing nothing but innocent people being ripped away from their way of life. That's all fine, if their way of life wasn't based on mind control and pedophila! Let's try to keep our eyes on the ball here.


Kudos to you!!

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:12 AM
Suzi? What do you expect here? The government had to sweep in and get 400 + kids when they were only expecting 250 kids. I am sure coming up with a place for these kids to stay while the courts made a decision as to what to do.

We gotta keep in mind here, FDLS members have been caught in several lies before, whats to say they are not lying now.

I beleieve the state is doing an awesome job, with the circumstances they have. We are always going to have someone trying to make the state look bad, in any situation that may occur.

Ok, just to make clear to everyone. I have repeatedly said that the source of the article is suspect. The state may be doing a fantastic job. There is nothing wrong with making sure they are.

SewingDeb
04-14-2008, 11:13 AM
Texas requires that each child have an attorney assigned to them. 350 attornies have already volunteered their services. Hearings are being scheduled.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351189,00.html

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:14 AM
Trust me, this is a biased paper suzi. Look at all the comments, supporting the FDLS, and bashing the state? People are making excuses for the FDLS actions, and basically calling the state, horible monsters, for stopping child rape.

Very very biased.

Actually, I've seen the same comments on message boards from all over the U.S.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:17 AM
You may think it's ok and want to downplay the significants of what I see in the pics. I'm merely concerned that the kids are treated the right way.


As we all are, but like I said before what do you expect, when texas, goes to raid a compound that they only suspect the are going to get a limited number of victims, and they end up walking out of there with 416 vicitims PLUS 100+ mothers.

I am sure the 100+ mothers are complicating things as well.

No government is going to be perfect when situations like this arise. However I beleieve Texas is doing the very best they can. The mothers are probably the only ones complaining at this point, and keep in mind they have been severley programmed all ther lives to defend the "cult".

Yes the children may cry. Yes they may be traumatized for a whole 5 -10 minuted exam. But I am also reading in several papers, that the kids are enjoying playing with new toys. So, I say, don't jump to conclusions from one "biased" media source. Lets let it play out in courts and we will soon enough find out if Texas was playing with fire or not.

RainbowsAndGumdrops
04-14-2008, 11:18 AM
I asked this question before and I am seriously looking for an answer. I have since discussed the issue with my husband. Does anyone know how we can get hold of someone trying to figure out how to help these people. I have a vacant rental unit in a community that would be perfect for many of those women to raise children in. Support systems could be built for the women to get educations, jobs, learn independence, friendship, and trust. Of course, I am talking about a move across the country. I want to talk to these people to see if this community could work out. There are tons of townhomes that have gone into foreclosure that are just waiting for hardworking people to clean up. The properties are livable, but dirty. The community is cleaning up and becoming prosperous once again. The schools are good, there are plenty of jobs, childcare etc. The only think is that i don't think there would be a lot of help for people with disabilities due to inbreeding. Still, the community could easily handle these women. Does anyone know who I would contact?

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:18 AM
As we all are, but like I said before what do you expect, when texas, goes to raid a compound that they only suspect the are going to get a limited number of victims, and they end up walking out of there with 416 vicitims PLUS 100+ mothers.

I am sure the 100+ mothers are complicating things as well.

No government is going to be perfect when situations like this arise. However I beleieve Texas is doing the very best they can. The mothers are probably the only ones complaining at this point, and keep in mind they have been severley programmed all ther lives to defend the "cult".

Yes the children may cry. Yes they may be traumatized for a whole 5 -10 minuted exam. But I am also reading in several papers, that the kids are enjoying playing with new toys. So, I say, don't jump to conclusions from one "biased" media source. Lets let it play out in courts and we will soon enough find out if Texas was playing with fire or not.

I was referring to what I saw in the photo not what I read in print.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 11:22 AM
I asked this question before and I am seriously looking for an answer. I have since discussed the issue with my husband. Does anyone know how we can get hold of someone trying to figure out how to help these people. I have a vacant rental unit in a community that would be perfect for many of those women to raise children in. Support systems could be built for the women to get educations, jobs, learn independence, friendship, and trust. Of course, I am talking about a move across the country. I want to talk to these people to see if this community could work out. There are tons of townhomes that have gone into foreclosure that are just waiting for hardworking people to clean up. The properties are livable, but dirty. The community is cleaning up and becoming prosperous once again. The schools are good, there are plenty of jobs, childcare etc. The only think is that i don't think there would be a lot of help for people with disabilities due to inbreeding. Still, the community could easily handle these women. Does anyone know who I would contact?

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-09_Eldorado.asp

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:22 AM
That's the only choice? And when have I ever said that? And why would I think that? My opinion is my opinion. We are allowed that aren't we? I'm concerned for the kids.


Suzi I understand your concern. But until the hearing on the 17th, these kids are stuck in this shelter. After the 17th AND if state gets custody, the state plans to place them in foster homes. And get them into therapy.

It all takes time, this was a humungous undertaking that texas had. Just try to think of the positive, and remeber that each day these kids are not with there "fathers" thats one less day of them being raped and abused.

barb0301
04-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Well, I am certainly glad to hear that!

I was with a high fluting private agency and some of the homes were super nasty and a few of the foster parents themselves were just horrendous

Hi Linda, I was with a private agency also, but it was the best experience of my life !

RainbowsAndGumdrops
04-14-2008, 11:24 AM
http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-09_Eldorado.asp

Thanks

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Seriously Searching
f the women and children had not been held captive, raped, molested, and treated as mere possessions to be traded as breeding cattle for old men...none of this would be taking place. Do NOT blame the authorities for what is now happening to these people. Put the blame on the MEN in this so-called church who are responsible!!!!!

***

I meant to address the your above post a bit back. I'm not blaming the authorities. All I am saying is I hope that what is being done in the most caring and compasionate way possible.

I know that where I am going, I am going to have to have SEVERAL HOURS if not DAYS of training before I even get near the kids, and that is with my past. I know about the mind control. I know about Physical and sexual abuse, and I am having to go through hours of training. Whats that tell you?

Don't get me wrong, The training takes time to set up. And I am sure that they will be training people as fast as they can.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:27 AM
Suzi I understand your concern. But until the hearing on the 17th, these kids are stuck in this shelter. After the 17th AND if state gets custody, the state plans to place them in foster homes. And get them into therapy.

It all takes time, this was a humungous undertaking that texas had. Just try to think of the positive, and remeber that each day these kids are not with there "fathers" thats one less day of them being raped and abused.

Lol, believe me. Alot of posters last night made that perfectly clear. Yes I am hanging on the the positive with the hope that it is all being handle the best way possible.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 11:28 AM
Suzi, I can't copy text out of this article, but this is the one I posted about that referred to the fact that they were not going to exceed 200 residents at the facility.

http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ050604b.html

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Texas requires that each child have an attorney assigned to them. 350 attornies have already volunteered their services. Hearings are being scheduled.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351189,00.html

Thank you for the link. Does anyone know what time the hearing is today?

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:30 AM
Suzi, I can't copy text out of this article, but this is the one I posted about that referred to the fact that they were not going to exceed 200 residents at the facility.

http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ050604b.html (http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ050604b.html)

Thank you golfmom.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:32 AM
Letter sent to the governor, note signatures:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/04-08/0414polygamist_mothers_letter.pdf


Same damn writing for the signatures! My guess is Merrill Jessop or a male wrote and signed the letter with 3 different names!

curious1
04-14-2008, 11:34 AM
LE could have put up a road block and let the adults have free passage as it pertains to everyday life. Its not like these people run in and out a lot they are isolationists right? Then the children wouldnt be in an institutional building, they would be sleeping in their own beds, eating foods they are used to and have their lives back. All at a fraction of what it is costing to keep them where they currently are. Less money spent, less trauma.... more mental and emotional well being.

And probably one girl every day or two would come of age and be forced into a marriage with an older man and be FORCED to consumate the marriage on the bed in the temple. Great plan. Just leave 'em with the abusers until we can sort all this out in 1 or 2 months or even years. Yeah great plan. While we are at it the next time little Johnny or Suzy reports being 'touched inappropriately' why don't we just let them keep leaving at home with the abuser until we sort that mess out to? Oh and the next time a woman shows up at a shelter for battered women with a black eye why don't we just tell her to go on home to hubby until we get this mess sorted out?

Sorry for the outburst....now banning myself...no need to do it for me. Peace out!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:35 AM
Speaking as a former foster parent.........the LAST place those children need to be is foster care. Most of the homes I was familiar with I wouldn't trust with my dog for a weekend.

Ok, so what do you suggest then? Them being in a foster home, where they at least have the chance at being safe, or them being returned to the compound where they have NO chance at being safe???

Don't get me wrong, I know the foster care system SUCKS ass. Hoever I also know that If I had a choice about my past events, I was better off in a foster home then with my abusers.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 11:36 AM
Same damn writing for the signatures! My guess is Merrill Jessop or a male wrote and signed the letter with 3 different names!

A bit transparent if you ask me!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:38 AM
I haven't had enough coffee to remember, but has a gag order been put in place?

Yes gag order has been place. But what I don't get, every side is speaking out, how is teh gag order in effect!? Boggles my mind!

golfmom
04-14-2008, 11:39 AM
Patricia Keate who's name is listed on the letter, was away from the compound the day of the raid. She was visiting Warren Jeffs.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8887285

In the past two weeks, jailed FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs has been visited by two people from the sect's Texas compound.
On March 30, he was visited by Merlin Jeffs, according to jail logs provided by Mohave (Ariz.) County Attorney Matt Smith. On April 2, a day before a massive raid on the YFZ Ranch began, he was visited by Patricia Keate.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:41 AM
I asked this question before and I am seriously looking for an answer. I have since discussed the issue with my husband. Does anyone know how we can get hold of someone trying to figure out how to help these people. I have a vacant rental unit in a community that would be perfect for many of those women to raise children in. Support systems could be built for the women to get educations, jobs, learn independence, friendship, and trust. Of course, I am talking about a move across the country. I want to talk to these people to see if this community could work out. There are tons of townhomes that have gone into foreclosure that are just waiting for hardworking people to clean up. The properties are livable, but dirty. The community is cleaning up and becoming prosperous once again. The schools are good, there are plenty of jobs, childcare etc. The only think is that i don't think there would be a lot of help for people with disabilities due to inbreeding. Still, the community could easily handle these women. Does anyone know who I would contact?

Send me a pm, I will get you the info when I get home with the Agency I am working with. Can't right now, though as I need to head otu for an appointment.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:43 AM
Lol, believe me. Alot of posters last night made that perfectly clear. Yes I am hanging on the the positive with the hope that it is all being handle the best way possible.


I know Suzi. This is a heated issue with alot. And I beleive that we all including you just want what is best for the child. We just need to figure the best way to get to that poiunt.

Hugs to you my friend!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:44 AM
Thank you for the link. Does anyone know what time the hearing is today?



Going on now as per CNN. Not a hearing to decide who goes home, just a hearing on how to deal with the court influx.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 11:45 AM
heading out. hopefully we have a new thread when i get back lol

SweetPea2
04-14-2008, 11:50 AM
Same damn writing for the signatures! My guess is Merrill Jessop or a male wrote and signed the letter with 3 different names!

Those aren't the same signatures. I see differences in each one.

Moe
04-14-2008, 11:51 AM
I'd like to know how this letter was released and by whom.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 11:55 AM
Those aren't the same signatures. I see differences in each one.

Those signatures were signed by one person.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 12:04 PM
You can see the slant for all three is identical and almost all the letters match up.

http://mob16.photobucket.com/albums/b43/TheFirstTee/1208188956.jpg

SweetPea2
04-14-2008, 12:11 PM
You can see the slant for all three is identical and almost all the letters match up.

http://mob16.photobucket.com/albums/b43/TheFirstTee/1208188956.jpg

Sorry, I don't see what you see. And there is no reason for one person to sign them all so what would the motive be for one to sign 3 names?:confused:

golfmom
04-14-2008, 12:16 PM
Sorry, I don't see what you see. And there is no reason for one person to sign them all so what would the motive be for one to sign 3 names?:confused:

Maybe to make it appear more legitimate
... or maybe all three women were unavailable to sign
... or maybe not all three women knew how to write their names

IDK, but I'm completely convinced one person signed all three names. Not only are the letters all slanted the same, you can see all three signatures slant slightly higher to the right. When you write, not every thing is exactly the same every time, but there are certain characteristics ... these signatures don't even look like someone tried to make them different.

LovingTheChaos
04-14-2008, 12:19 PM
Carolyn Jessop - Authur of Escape, a former polygamist wife is on MSNBC now. She knows Monica, the woman interviewed by Deseret news. She said that Monica was abusive to her children when she was living with her. She said "she comes accross sweet & innocent on the video' the reality was that she was abusive. She accused Monica of committing crimes against her children. Monica would keep Carolyn in line by threatening harm on her children.
Carolyn stated while the men were abusive, in many cases the women were just as bad, & they also commited abuse against the kids. No surprise there, but I think we need to be reminded that these ladies aren't all innocent victims here -
BTW - I came here to read because I knew W'sers would havet he 'inside scoop on this. I was upset after reading they took the women's cell phones away. To me - that is just BEGGING for a Civil rights violation outcy. I hope TX walks carefully - because these children need protection.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 12:27 PM
Carolyn Jessop - Authur of Escape, a former polygamist wife is on MSNBC now. She knows Monica, the woman interviewed by Deseret news. She said that Monica was abusive to her children when she was living with her. She said "she comes accross sweet & innocent on the video' the reality was that she was abusive. She accused Monica of committing crimes against her children. Monica would keep Carolyn in line by threatening harm on her children.
Carolyn stated while the men were abusive, in many cases the women were just as bad, & they also commited abuse against the kids. No surprise there, but I think we need to be reminded that these ladies aren't all innocent victims here -
BTW - I came here to read because I knew W'sers would havet he 'inside scoop on this. I was upset after reading they took the women's cell phones away. To me - that is just BEGGING for a Civil rights violation outcy. I hope TX walks carefully - because these children need protection.

The poster who posted way back when that this is a regular Peyton Place isn't off the mark. I can't imagine the drama that goes on when you have several wives living under one roof. You know the old saying, only one queen to a castle.

LovingTheChaos
04-14-2008, 12:29 PM
The poster who posted way back when that his is a regular Peyton Place isn't off the mark. I can't imagine the drama that goes on when you have several wives living under one roof. You know the old saying, only one queen to a castle.

So you think Carolyn is making this up? I have to say, she was very believable. Drama is one thing - hurting childen is a whole different issue.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Yes gag order has been place. But what I don't get, every side is speaking out, how is teh gag order in effect!? Boggles my mind!

I agree, that's why I asked, because in a big case issuing a gag order is standard operating procedure. I could be that violating the gag order was the real justification for taking the cellphones.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 12:32 PM
So you think Carolyn is making this up? I have to say, she was very believable. Drama is one thing - hurting childen is a whole different issue.

I don't believe Carolyn is, there is a lot of documentation where the senior wife is abusive to the other wives and children.

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 12:34 PM
So you think Carolyn is making this up? I have to say, she was very believable. Drama is one thing - hurting childen is a whole different issue.

NO!!!! I totally believe her. My statement about the drama backs that up.

barb0301
04-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I agree, that's why I asked, because in a big case issuing a gag order is standard operating procedure. I could be that violating the gag order was the real justification for taking the cellphones.


Here is a link to the court order removing the cell phones. It was requested by the attorneys representing some of the 18 girls already placed in permanent state care, to prevent witness tampering.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/0414cellphone_order.pdf

SuziQ
04-14-2008, 12:38 PM
I've noticed a trend lately in responding to posts. They are being highly misinterpreted and the equivalent to putting words into someones mouth is happening. I know I'm being attacked and confronted for things I never said. This thread seems to be getting off track and people seem more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. A sign a thread has run it's course. It's just to exhausting to have to put out fires and explain myself in every other post I make. So you probably won't see me here much. On that note....carry on.

LovingTheChaos
04-14-2008, 12:47 PM
NO!!!! I totally believe her. My statement about the drama backs that up.

Sorry - I may have misinterrpreted what you were saying. I thought you meant that she & the other wife may have been jealous of each other. To me this was much bigger than the 'drama' that women can sometime create between each other.

mollymalone
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
http://www.childbrides.org/Memo_In_Support_of_Motion_in_Limine_11_6_2007.pdf

I mentioned yesterday that Warren Jeffs was still in control of the Texas group
through Merrill Jessop and this is the court document I referred to. While behind
bars he was and probably still is calling the shots IMO. Even though he made
the statements that he was no longer the prophet those he talked to thought
he was testing them. He also decreed that two families were to switch places.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 01:17 PM
Molly, did you catch that Patricia Keate, One of the women who signed the petition to the governor, was visiting Warren Jeffs the day before the raid?

mollymalone
04-14-2008, 01:23 PM
Molly, did you catch that Patricia Keate, One of the women who signed the petition to the governor, was visiting Warren Jeffs the day before the raid?I just saw the post about that! Off to read the link.

Re: the cell phones, from what many of the former members have said there will be those women and men who will intimidate and threaten those who want to escape or in this case, who are outside of their control. Using the cell phones they can continue to try and control the children or the young women.

Also, IMO some of the women who voluntarily came out with the younger ones might also have volunteered so that they could watch what was said and done and report back.

LinasK
04-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Those aren't the same signatures. I see differences in each one.

They are pretty darned close! The differences are minor. Would be interesting to see what a handwriting analysis expert thinks.
I'll bet the same writer can't be excluded, kinda like Patsy Ramsey...

Besides the upward slants, the Capital J's, R's, S's, M's, and lower case o's, c's, i's and a's are virtually identical. If it wasn't the same writer, (which I doubt),then they all had the same handwriting/penmanship teacher!!!

LinasK
04-14-2008, 02:20 PM
http://www.childbrides.org/Memo_In_Support_of_Motion_in_Limine_11_6_2007.pdf

I mentioned yesterday that Warren Jeffs was still in control of the Texas group
through Merrill Jessop and this is the court document I referred to. While behind
bars he was and probably still is calling the shots IMO. Even though he made
the statements that he was no longer the prophet those he talked to thought
he was testing them. He also decreed that two families were to switch places.
I only read the first 5 pages, but he ordered them to destroy their "dictations from him" and was going to give his wife Naomi away to another after she was re-baptized!:eek::eek::eek:

Leila
04-14-2008, 04:05 PM
Did you notice that who ever signed, signed for all three women?

Golfmom...................great catch! The signatures were definitely written by the same person. :)

I'm just beginning to catch up with today's posts. It looks like the propaganda war has begun........the FLDS is trying to turn this around and make it look like the authorities are the bad guys in this situation. They're trying to gain public sympathy.

thefragile7393
04-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Golfmom...................great catch! The signatures were definitely written by the same person. :)

I'm just beginning to catch up with today's posts. It looks like the propaganda war has begun........the FLDS is trying to turn this around and make it look like the authorities are the bad guys in this situation. They're trying to gain public sympathy.
You got it. I think very few people will sympathize though.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 04:15 PM
Going to send a pm to see if we can get a new thread

Leila
04-14-2008, 04:25 PM
The enforcers worry me. Note that one of the womens complaints, at least to the Deseret News, (I haven't read the letter to the gov yet) is that 25 women are being kept away from the kids. And then the highly regarded woman in Trents photos that resembles Warren Jeffs.

SuzyQ................the "enforcers" worry me too. I've looked at the pictures of the women closely.....in some cases using a magnifying glass. In pictures of a group of the women, I see several older ladies with mostly gray hair. They look like they're beyond child bearing age and probably don't have any children among the children that were removed.

I wonder why these older women chose to come along with those who were removed? I suspect that these women are there to keep the younger women in line......to remind them not to talk to outsiders, not to tell their names, etc. I think the sooner the children and the younger women (young adults in their late teens/early 20's) are separated from the older women, the better. After the hearing on Thursday, I hope they start separating them.

Leila
04-14-2008, 04:29 PM
Thank you!

I agree with the section you wrote that I bolded. ADD to that, that the sect itself told Eldorado officials that the compound was built to house 200 residents, and you can see how Texas really got blindsided by the numbers.

I agree............the CPS probably had no idea going in that there would be anywhere near that many children. They probably had a plan in mind to accommodate perhaps 100 children and wound up with 4 times what they expected. Hence the pictures of a crowded dormitory.

Pepper
04-14-2008, 04:36 PM
This whole mess turns my stomach.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Confirmation that desertnews is owned by FDLS

Since the LDS Church has taken repeated pains to point out that it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this group in Texas, why does the Desert News (owned by the Church)

http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/1,5150,695270279,00.html

Leila
04-14-2008, 04:49 PM
Patricia Keate who's name is listed on the letter, was away from the compound the day of the raid. She was visiting Warren Jeffs.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8887285

In the past two weeks, jailed FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs has been visited by two people from the sect's Texas compound.
On March 30, he was visited by Merlin Jeffs, according to jail logs provided by Mohave (Ariz.) County Attorney Matt Smith. On April 2, a day before a massive raid on the YFZ Ranch began, he was visited by Patricia Keate.

This is how Warren Jeffs keeps in control of the FLDS communities. He may be in jail, but he's in full charge, giving orders to his members from jail.

Leila
04-14-2008, 04:56 PM
You can see the slant for all three is identical and almost all the letters match up.

http://mob16.photobucket.com/albums/b43/TheFirstTee/1208188956.jpg

The "J" in Jessop and Johnson is exactly the same. The "M" in Monica and Marie is the same. The "S" in Sherron and the middle initial of Monica is the same. The "e", "a" and "o" in lower case all appear to be uniform in all three signatures.

Leila
04-14-2008, 05:00 PM
I just saw the post about that! Off to read the link.

Re: the cell phones, from what many of the former members have said there will be those women and men who will intimidate and threaten those who want to escape or in this case, who are outside of their control. Using the cell phones they can continue to try and control the children or the young women.

Also, IMO some of the women who voluntarily came out with the younger ones might also have volunteered so that they could watch what was said and done and report back.

I absolutely agree! There are older women in with the whole group who's job is to keep the others in line and report back to the men at YFZ.

Glow
04-14-2008, 05:12 PM
http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/1,5150,695270279,00.html


Thank you for posting that link LadyB. There is a quote I had been looking around for ever since this case began and I couldn't remember enough key words to find it. Someone at the link above had quoted it so I have it now!

mostlylurking
04-14-2008, 05:16 PM
Confirmation that desertnews is owned by FDLS

Since the LDS Church has taken repeated pains to point out that it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this group in Texas, why does the Desert News (owned by the Church)

http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/1,5150,695270279,00.html

Ummm, not finding anything that says this paper is owned by the FLDS.
Can you tell me where on the page to see that?
Clearly it is the oldest paper in Utah & it says in the history that it started when Brigham Young brought the first group to that area....
but I'm not finding a direct FLDS link.

curious1
04-14-2008, 05:24 PM
The "J" in Jessop and Johnson is exactly the same. The "M" in Monica and Marie is the same. The "S" in Sherron and the middle initial of Monica is the same. The "e", "a" and "o" in lower case all appear to be uniform in all three signatures.

Hi Leila. No disrespect intended, but aside from all 3 names slanting up I just do no see what you are seeing. The two J's and M's looking nothing alike to me. :waitasec:

I would like to see these examined by someone who is a handwriting expert. Someone here has to know one.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 05:24 PM
Since the LDS Church has taken repeated pains to point out that it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this group in Texas, why does the Desert News (owned by the Church)seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time, effort (phone interviews, sending reporters to Texas)and space reporting on this?

Direct quote. will look around for more confirmation

barb0301
04-14-2008, 05:26 PM
Ummm, not finding anything that says this paper is owned by the FLDS.
Can you tell me where on the page to see that?
Clearly it is the oldest paper in Utah & it says in the history that it started when Brigham Young brought the first group to that area....
but I'm not finding a direct FLDS link.

A Wikipedia article on the Deseret News:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Morning_News

curious1
04-14-2008, 05:27 PM
Very very interesting Barb0301. Things that make ya go hmmm....

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 05:29 PM
A Wikipedia article on the Deseret News:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Morning_News


Thanks Barb. So can we say BIASED!?

Floh
04-14-2008, 05:33 PM
I absolutely agree! There are older women in with the whole group who's job is to keep the others in line and report back to the men at YFZ.

The older women haven't yet/now a yearning of a life outside FLDS so their thoughts are, "Why should anyone else?" :confused:

washed of brain and compassion. :(

Floh
04-14-2008, 05:36 PM
Hi Leila. No disrespect intended, but aside from all 3 names slanting up I just do no see what you are seeing. The two J's and M's looking nothing alike to me. :waitasec:

I would like to see these examined by someone who is a handwriting expert. Someone here has to know one.

They look alike to me. i would welcome any a handwriting expert's eye.

philamena
04-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Those aren't the same signatures. I see differences in each one.

oh dear sweetpea, those ARE signed by the same person; no doubt in my mind.

RIVERRAT....where are you? We need you to look at the 3 signatures.

mostlylurking
04-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Thanks Barb. So can we say BIASED!?

Thanks for the link guys -- biased toward LDS, yes. But, as per the snip from wikepedia below, it is owned by LDS not FLDS as noted in the post above. I believe that is a significant difference -JMO.

The Deseret Morning News is a newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper) published in Salt Lake City, Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City%2C_Utah), and is Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah)'s oldest continually published daily newspaper. It has the second largest daily circulation in the state behind The Salt Lake Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune). The Deseret Morning News is owned by Deseret News Publishing Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_News_Publishing_Company), a subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Management_Corporation), which is a for-profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit) business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) (widely known as the Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon) or LDS Church).

Leila
04-14-2008, 05:41 PM
I was surprised at the comments from readers of the Deseret News. The comments are, for the most part, pro-FLDS.

This may explain why men at the YFZ compound allowed reporters from the Deseret News access to the compound and telephone interviews with a few of the women who were removed and are now at Fort Concho.

The FLDS is manipulating the coverage, knowing that they have sympathizers among the readers of the Deseret News.

Floh
04-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Going to send a pm to see if we can get a new thread

Thanks. i hope for a positive respose in there is a close to this thread and we can start anew however, you know you can start a new thread anyway?

it would be great if you could link this thread to the new thread and the new thread to this one! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the link guys -- biased toward LDS, yes. But, as per the snip from wikepedia below, it is owned by LDS not FLDS as noted in the post above. I believe that is a significant difference -JMO.

The Deseret Morning News is a newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper) published in Salt Lake City, Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City%2C_Utah), and is Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah)'s oldest continually published daily newspaper. It has the second largest daily circulation in the state behind The Salt Lake Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune). The Deseret Morning News is owned by Deseret News Publishing Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_News_Publishing_Company), a subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Management_Corporation), which is a for-profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit) business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) (widely known as the Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon) or LDS Church).


Ok but they are the only paper allowed in the compound, they are the only paper that has gotten NEGATIVE phone calls towards the state, They are the only one who is reporting all the NEGATIVE things first and foremost before they even consider reporting the good of the raid. In my opinion, they are trying to make the state look bad, and the FDLS, members the good people. If you read all the comments on the stories, I am sure you will see the same way. Its alla botu violatring the constitutional rights, and texas should be sued, and on and on and on. There are very few comments Supporting Texas.

Also I have wrote several comments supporting Texas. And only 3 oif the 20 comments I have written have been published. More comments that are negative to the state are the ones that are getting published. And this is not just happening to me, There have been several people who have complained that there comments in support of the state are not getting published, but all the others bashing the state are.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 05:46 PM
Ok going to start a new thread please continue here

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2135661#post2135661

Hopefully a mod can lock this thread so we don't ahve 2 going!

Leila
04-14-2008, 05:48 PM
Hi Leila. No disrespect intended, but aside from all 3 names slanting up I just do no see what you are seeing. The two J's and M's looking nothing alike to me. :waitasec:

I would like to see these examined by someone who is a handwriting expert. Someone here has to know one.

And no disrespect taken......:) I got out my trusty magnifying glass and looked closely at repeating letters and see some in all three signatures that appear identical. I too would like to see an expert in handwriting take a look at the signatures.

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 05:50 PM
On the letter to the governor: Talks about how the kids are getting sick- notice the letter doesn't mention that the kids have chicken pox and that the incubation period for that is something like two weeks- meaning they were already exposed before they were put into the shelter? Talks about how some had to be taken to the hospital: So far there is only reports of one child being taken to the hospital and that report was from an FLDS member. And with more than 400 children in an area, somehow it doesn't suprise me that one child had to be taken to the hospital. I noted that when the FLDS member talked about the child taken to the hospital that she went right on to talking about when she returned- which leads me to believe that the child was probably taken to the emergency room then released. Not unknown with kids with chicken pox.

Physical examinations traumatizing to the children. Yes, they probably were. But somehow I believe the physical exams were probably less traumatizing than repeated sexual abuse.

My favorite: Kids taken with no explanation! No explanation??? Well if authorities haven't talked with them or told them, they can pick up a paper and read it there!

They were permitted to return to their "empty ransacked homes" "heartsick and lonely". Boohoo. Their secrecy shows they were aware that what they were doing was against the law. So knowingly breaking the law, they must be prepared for the consequences.

The letter isn't even a tear jerking. It is a plea for sympathy not based on known facts.

Floh
04-14-2008, 05:50 PM
New thread, people: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463

please can you close this thread, admin?

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 06:03 PM
In the desertnews article

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

Kids getting sick. Again the chicken pox issue, incubation period would have been prior to the children being taken into custody. And yes, kids placed close together in an envirment will pass minor illnesses around. Most mothers who have multiple kids, kids in day care or going to schools know that.

Crying children. Anybody ever have a kid go to camp? Or going to stay with grandparents? Sometimes they do get homesick at night. And yes, one crying kid will often being a round of crying in the other children- many parents note that when they have kids in day care. Not peculiar to these kids.

The "Dorothy" that talks seems resentful that she has to comfort kids. If she doesn't like it, she can go home.

Workers walk the shelter at night. I have worked in a hospital and in emergency shelters. Yes, sometimes you have to respond to needs at night. Sometimes you have persons who are wakeful. Sometimes you need to check on ones that may appear to be becoming ill. Had they not done that the FLDS would call them neglectful.

Children in close contact, causing delays in putting the kids down at night. Yes, probably true.

Most of the complaints the FLDS are making would be true of almost every abused child who is removed from their parents. Except in this case, some of the parents were allowed to go with them. Instead of counting their blessings about that, they are complaining.

mysteriew
04-14-2008, 06:24 PM
The media visit to the compound:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270108,00.html

Nancy, who was holding a baby in her arms, said one officer "poked their face into our face" and loudly said, "Give me that baby!"
Trying to recreate the Short Creek picture with words.

"The children would cry and hang onto their mothers,"
Not according to the pictures taken by photogs.

The ranch seems empty: I'm sure it does. A condition often noted by mothers when their kids go to stay with Dads on weekends, attend camp, or go off to college or to independent living.

"Every day I've called them. They put me off saying they don't have the authority to let me in and there's no proof the children are mine. I tell them the children know who their mother is, and I know who my children are," she said.

The 30-year-old says she provided child welfare officials with identification and even birth certificates proving she is her children's mother. She says she and other mothers were told those documents could have been fake.

Sorry, but they could be fake. And the others who have been interviewed and/or who are staying with the children lying about names, refusing to give names, birthdates and paternity helps to add to that suspicion. A condition of their own making.

"I couldn't believe it. I wondered if we were in America or Russia," Shannon said. "I kept thinking, 'How can they do that?' They're breaking every rule. They're breaking every law."

They are breaking the law? Every parent who runs up against allegations of abuse goes through this. Even if the allegations later prove to be not true. So what makes them think they are exceptions to that law? According to CPS they have found evidence of abuse. And by law they must act on that evidence by removing the children from an abusive environment. Perhaps their attorneys should explain that to them.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-14-2008, 06:28 PM
NEW THREAD PLEASE

New thread, people: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463

Floh
04-14-2008, 06:48 PM
Definitely time for bed. night all.

golfmom
04-14-2008, 06:49 PM
but i wanted to reply to this, if i may,

I have no doubt he's calling the shots. i wish they'd bung him in solitary for the duration. :furious: :furious: :furious:

now what on earth was the post?

Well, since one of the "alleged" mothers was visiting with the "prophet" the day before the raid ... I'd say he's still in charge. :bang:

Animal04216
04-14-2008, 06:56 PM
sorry guys i accidentally closed the wrong thread LOL. Continue here

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463