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adnoid
04-10-2008, 12:16 AM
Carry on.

Continued from here:

Thread #1 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62952)

cheko1
04-10-2008, 12:17 AM
With this cult being called a religon.......I honestly don't believe religon comes into this sick mess for anything. I commend the State authorities of Texas for standing tall & proud. They went in & got the job done.

Our Armed Forces was sent into Iraq to free the people from a mad man, Sadam Hussein. All the while madmen were sitting in Texas raping children, hiding behind God & a temple. Taking as many wives as they wanted, still not content with life. Having all the kids they possibly could. Raping, beating & torturing them, teaching babies lessons, scamming welfare.

I say its time now to clean our own back doors & they need to end this sickness once & for all. Whats keeping the other states from saving these poor kids?

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 12:20 AM
With this cult being called a religon.......I honestly don't believe religon comes into this sick mess for anything. I commend the State authorities of Texas for standing tall & proud. They went in & got the job done.

Our Armed Forces was sent into Iraq to free the people from a mad man, Sadam Hussein. All the while madmen were sitting in Texas raping children, hiding behind God & a temple. Taking as many wives as they wanted, still not content with life. Having all the kids they possibly could. Raping, beating & torturing them, teaching babies lessons, scamming welfare.

I say its time now to clean our own back doors & they need to end this sickness once & for all. Whats keeping the other states from saving these poor kids?

Haleluliah! May this bring an end to it.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:24 AM
Whats keeping the other states from saving these poor kids?

Politics and a lack of qujones.

cheko1
04-10-2008, 12:24 AM
Thanks Adnoid!!!! :clap:

cheko1
04-10-2008, 12:26 AM
Haleluliah! May this bring an end to it.

Don't we all wish!!!

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:27 AM
Thanks Adnoid :clap: :clap:

cheko1
04-10-2008, 12:28 AM
Politics and a lack of qujones.


Your so right!
Just infuriates me......we have our noses in so many other countries & what is going on here in the states is utterly ridiculous. It makes me boil!

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 12:36 AM
Your so right!
Just infuriates me......we have our noses in so many other countries & what is going on here in the states is utterly ridiculous. It makes me boil!

Great point! It's disgusting this has been allowed to go on for so long.

trixie
04-10-2008, 12:40 AM
Thanks Adnoid!

Barb0301 you were wondering why the FBI got involved. I think it's because these girls were being transferred from one compound to another, and that's across state lines for the purpose of sex maybe?
And maybe they wanted the jackhammer to bust into the vault, if it's in the floor?

cheko1
04-10-2008, 12:49 AM
Great point! It's disgusting this has been allowed to go on for so long.


Yes at the first signs of a cult being established they need to end it.
I don't understand if that many ladies are getting welfare & the checks are going to the same address why wasn't that a red flag?

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:51 AM
Thanks Adnoid!

Barb0301 you were wondering why the FBI got involved. I think it's because these girls were being transferred from one compound to another, and that's across state lines for the purpose of sex maybe?
And maybe they wanted the jackhammer to bust into the vault, if it's in the floor?

That's what I think is going on.

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 01:03 AM
That's what I think is going on.

Whatever the reason - more power to them! I sincerely hope they have a solid case this time.

SuziQ - hope you're feeling better. An emergency trip to the dentist is never a good thing!

mysteriew
04-10-2008, 01:15 AM
It is probably for the reason of transporting children across state lines for the purposes of sex. Esp since many of them were residents of other states until the recent move to Texas.

But there could also be a couple of other reasons, and at some point I do look for the feds to use them.

The church claims tax exempt status, and if they have come across any info that indicates that they have violated the tax laws in that, there could be federal involvement.

There may also be attention because of misuse of social security numbers. Right now they are trying to identify them, one way would be to get their social security numbers. All of them would have to have social security numbers if they were drawing welfare. Those ss records should have info about the parents because they have to submit a birth certificate to get them. If they are giving false socials or using someone else's socials, then that is a federal violation.

Another thing might be wefare fraud across state lines. Most moved to Texas recently, if as we suspect many were drawing welfare benefits in the other state, who knows whether they closed their cases or not when they moved. By drawing in one state and residing in another state, that might bring in the feds.

And somehow I believe that eventually they will go after the FLDS financial records. I don't know why I believe that, I just do.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 01:16 AM
Thanks Fairy, it was a very traumatic and weird. What happened to me was a real fluke and could have had serious consequences. Ok, enough about me.


***
The below linked article really has me upset. I've always liked Utah's AG. However, his attempt to excuse the non-action of the State of Utah towards polygamy is just flat out unacceptable. No wonder Texas doesn't want his help. Utah's non action resulted in the FLDS causing Texas the headache they have today. And what would Mark teach them? How to make lame excuses maybe?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3049050


Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says, "Whether you think we should or not, it can't be done." He says he's facing new criticism, alongside Arizona's Attorney General, that they haven't done enough to prosecute polygamists. He cites a lack of infrastructure -- things like room in prisons and foster care homes -- as one of the reasons Utah will not be following in Texas' footsteps.
"It's impossible; it's not practical; 416 is a lot, even for a big organization like Texas, but we have thousands here," Shurtleff said.
Shurtleff's office had planned to serve 80 warrants to members of the Kingston clan more than a year ago but backed off due, in part, to promises from Kingston attorneys that their clients would cooperate. Those promises fell through and many of the 80 fled.
Despite that instance, Shurtleff says allegations are handled individually. "We'll take them one case at a time, one victim at a time, one house, if you will, at a time." Shurtleff says he's offered to help authorities in Texas by sharing information and experiences but has not been taken up on that offer, a fact that surprises him.

ETA: I guess it's cheaper to pay out welfare than to address the problem.

Taximom
04-10-2008, 01:28 AM
:clap: :clap: With this cult being called a religon.......I honestly don't believe religon comes into this sick mess for anything. I commend the State authorities of Texas for standing tall & proud. They went in & got the job done.

Our Armed Forces was sent into Iraq to free the people from a mad man, Sadam Hussein. All the while madmen were sitting in Texas raping children, hiding behind God & a temple. Taking as many wives as they wanted, still not content with life. Having all the kids they possibly could. Raping, beating & torturing them, teaching babies lessons, scamming welfare.

I say its time now to clean our own back doors & they need to end this sickness once & for all. Whats keeping the other states from saving these poor kids?

Wow. Well said, cheko. :clap:

Leila
04-10-2008, 01:28 AM
Thanks Adnoid!

Barb0301 you were wondering why the FBI got involved. I think it's because these girls were being transferred from one compound to another, and that's across state lines for the purpose of sex maybe?
And maybe they wanted the jackhammer to bust into the vault, if it's in the floor?

I suspect that transporting underage minors across borders for the purpose of sex could well be one of the reasons the FBI was brought in.

The raid on the compound was carried out by local LE, and they may have found something in their initial search of the temple that fell under federal jurisdiction. Perhaps financial records or something along that line?

Leila
04-10-2008, 01:53 AM
On CNN - 360 - they announced that there will be a press conference on this tomorrow morning at 11:00 eastern time.

Also, they're referring to the 16-year-old as "Sarah."

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 01:54 AM
Thanks Fairy, it was a very traumatic and weird. What happened to me was a real fluke and could have had serious consequences. Ok, enough about me.


***
The below linked article really has me upset. I've always liked Utah's AG. However, his attempt to excuse the non-action of the State of Utah towards polygamy is just flat out unacceptable. No wonder Texas doesn't want his help. Utah's non action resulted in the FLDS causing Texas the headache they have today. And what would Mark teach them? How to make lame excuses maybe?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3049050


Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says, "Whether you think we should or not, it can't be done." He says he's facing new criticism, alongside Arizona's Attorney General, that they haven't done enough to prosecute polygamists. He cites a lack of infrastructure -- things like room in prisons and foster care homes -- as one of the reasons Utah will not be following in Texas' footsteps.
"It's impossible; it's not practical; 416 is a lot, even for a big organization like Texas, but we have thousands here," Shurtleff said.
Shurtleff's office had planned to serve 80 warrants to members of the Kingston clan more than a year ago but backed off due, in part, to promises from Kingston attorneys that their clients would cooperate. Those promises fell through and many of the 80 fled.
Despite that instance, Shurtleff says allegations are handled individually. "We'll take them one case at a time, one victim at a time, one house, if you will, at a time." Shurtleff says he's offered to help authorities in Texas by sharing information and experiences but has not been taken up on that offer, a fact that surprises him.

ETA: I guess it's cheaper to pay out welfare than to address the problem.

I sincerely hope you're ok SuziQ. You're absoutely right about it being cheaper to pay out welfare than to take care of the women and children of FLDS. But I hope this case brings to light what has been happening there. It is so difficult for mainstream society to grasp what is happening in these sects. It goes agains the very fabric of the American way of life. I worry that most people will feel that these people are there voluntarily. But these people (mostly women and children) need help and we should all step up to the plate. I hope the timing is right and that Texas LE and the FBI have enough evidence to put an end to the FLDS. It is an overwhelming undertaking and must be handled properly, but it can and SHOULD be done. Once and for all.

Leila
04-10-2008, 02:59 AM
CNN has a video clip of an update on the adults and children that were removed from the compound. Child Protective Services spokeswoman, Marleigh Meisner states that they believe they have the 16-year-old (Sarah) who made the phone calls for help, but cannot yet confirm that. It was explained that she might be too frightened to come forward.

I would think that by now they've probably completed some sort of assessment of those who were removed from the compound, and have probably been able to narrow it down to just a few girls that fit the profile of the girl. How may 16-year-olds with an 8-month old daughter, who is pregnant could there be among the children?

One of the reporters asked about the adult women. Ms. Meisner said that all of the adult women were free to leave at any time, but none have chosen to do so.


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/09/sot.tx.polygamist.children.cnn

Lola
04-10-2008, 03:36 AM
SusiQ, I refer to your post on the last thread about the church denouncing polygamy. Yes they denounce, but say it is not wrong. IOW they talk out both sides of their mouths. They do not give a clear view on this because it would taint all the forbears who not only were polygamist, they encouraged the practice.

This religion, (and yes, I have trouble equating this with a religion because I've read the history and know the practice) is isolationist, based on secret teachings that few, if any have seen. The Moonies have bought their way into respectability, and they followed the example of the LDS.

Floh
04-10-2008, 04:12 AM
SusiQ, I refer to your post on the last thread about the church denouncing polygamy. Yes they denounce, but say it is not wrong. IOW they talk out both sides of their mouths. They do not give a clear view on this because it would taint all the forbears who not only were polygamist, they encouraged the practice.

This religion, (and yes, I have trouble equating this with a religion because I've read the history and know the practice) is isolationist, based on secret teachings that few, if any have seen. The Moonies have bought their way into respectability, and they followed the example of the LDS.

FLDS cannot be condemned by mainstream LDS as by doing so it would condemn mormon founder Joseph Smith, which would by dint condemn the entire Latter Day Saint spectrum, whichever colour were being flown.

Mygirlsadie
04-10-2008, 05:30 AM
What disgusts me is the fact that they do all these dirty deeds and try and justify them in the name of God. Are they nuts? Yes they are.. I wish all these ''cults'' would be illegal. I know it's hard to just do that. But nothing good ever came out of any of these cults...

Floh
04-10-2008, 05:40 AM
What disgusts me is the fact that they do all these dirty deeds and try and justify them in the name of God. Are they nuts? Yes they are.. I wish all these ''cults'' would be illegal. I know it's hard to just do that. But nothing good ever came out of any of these cults...

*cough* aren't there some mainstream religions which would have once been regarded as cults?

i do wish the more harmful one would be gone, though.

Mygirlsadie
04-10-2008, 05:58 AM
Well... you know what I mean? Cults such as this kind..or the David Koresh kind.



*cough* aren't there some mainstream religions which would have once been regarded as cults?

i do wish the more harmful one would be gone, though.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 06:43 AM
And somehow I believe that eventually they will go after the FLDS financial records. I don't know why I believe that, I just do.

Myst, Utah is in charge of the churches financial assets which are way over $100 million dollars.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16380/judge-reforms-flds-trust
A judge in Salt Lake City’s 3rd District Court signed an order late Wednesday, reforming the $110 million dollar trust.
......
The UEP Trust controls homes, businesses and land within the towns. It was part of a “united order” that the FLDS Church created. In 2005, Judge Denise Lindberg took control of the UEP Trust amid allegations that FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs and other top church leaders were fleecing it. She appointed certified public accountant Bruce Wisan to act as the court-appointed special fiduciary, managing the trust.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 06:53 AM
There's a lot of information in this article, but what I thought interesting is the difficult task the CPS workers are having with this group.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8872379

The affidavit also describes conversations between two Child Protective Services workers and a half dozen young mothers and girls who knew young mothers within the group. One CPS worker said she asked one girl her age; the girl looked at her husband, who responded, "You are 18."
The girl parroted the answer, according to the document. The girl also said she is the man's fourth wife and has an infant.
Another girl told a CPS worker she did not know her own age but acknowledged having a two-year-old and being pregnant. The CPS worker said an 8-year-old later told her the girl is under 16 and has four children.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:13 AM
I really hope this is true!

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamists_10tex.ART.State.Edition1.46ab4b7.html

SAN ANGELO, Texas – Child welfare officials said Wednesday that they're nearly certain the teenage girl whose complaint triggered the removal of 416 children from a West Texas polygamist compound is in their care but is too afraid to identify herself.

"We are confident that she was at the ranch. We know she exists," said Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:31 AM
Chief Friend Walker of the Mohave County, Ariz., Probation Department, is claiming that Barlow has been checking in with his probation officer regularly and hasn't received travel permits to leave the state. He's claiming he hasn't seen a warrant to arrest Barlow. Obviously a warrant was issued since sheriff's officials CONFIRM they located him in AZ the day the search warrant was issued. How exactly did they know they had to locate him, if they hadn't received paperwork to locate him? :confused:

Here's the Judge's response to that situation:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269124,00.html
...
Walker said he has not seen a warrant for Barlow's arrest, but Judge Barbara Walther indicated in court that she believes she issued one. In court Wednesday, the church's attorney Gerald Goldstein said sheriff's officials in Arizona located Barlow in their state the day the search warrant was issued.

"I don't think anyone's going to argue that was the guy they're looking for," Goldstein said.

"So my authority is not valid in Arizona?" the judge replied. "That may be another thing we look into."

When a comparison was later made to an hypothetical raid on the Vatican, Walther joked that she knows she has no jurisdiction in Italy.

"I can't even get an arrest warrant issued in Arizona," she said.

Trino
04-10-2008, 07:56 AM
The below linked article really has me upset. I've always liked Utah's AG. However, his attempt to excuse the non-action of the State of Utah towards polygamy is just flat out unacceptable. No wonder Texas doesn't want his help. Utah's non action resulted in the FLDS causing Texas the headache they have today. And what would Mark teach them? How to make lame excuses maybe?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3049050

Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says, "Whether you think we should or not, it can't be done." He says he's facing new criticism, alongside Arizona's Attorney General, that they haven't done enough to prosecute polygamists. He cites a lack of infrastructure -- things like room in prisons and foster care homes -- as one of the reasons Utah will not be following in Texas' footsteps.
"It's impossible; it's not practical; 416 is a lot, even for a big organization like Texas, but we have thousands here," Shurtleff said.
Shurtleff's office had planned to serve 80 warrants to members of the Kingston clan more than a year ago but backed off due, in part, to promises from Kingston attorneys that their clients would cooperate. Those promises fell through and many of the 80 fled.
Despite that instance, Shurtleff says allegations are handled individually. "We'll take them one case at a time, one victim at a time, one house, if you will, at a time." Shurtleff says he's offered to help authorities in Texas by sharing information and experiences but has not been taken up on that offer, a fact that surprises him.

ETA: I guess it's cheaper to pay out welfare than to address the problem.

It's not only cheaper, but it assumes he doesn't care about victims of abuse and these young girls.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 08:09 AM
Since the state has control of over $100 Million in church funds to BENEFIT the members. His excuses sound very lame.

I had to laugh out loud over his comment that he's surprised Texas hasn't called him. Like he's been doing such a good job that Texas needs or wants his advise.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 08:20 AM
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269033,00.html

With 80 search warrants in hand for DNA samples and other evidence, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said he was set to conduct a sweeping raid on a secretive polygamous clan in 2006.

Instead, Shurtleff changed his mind and clan leaders quickly made themselves scarce. He made the disclosure in an interview with KTVX-TV in Salt Lake City.
.....
In Utah, Shurtleff said that instead of conducting a sweep of the Kingston clan, he decided to work with the family's attorneys.

But "nothing took place and those warrants expired," Murphy said Wednesday.

Lisahas2cats
04-10-2008, 08:54 AM
Another girl told a CPS worker she did not know her own age but acknowledged having a two-year-old and being pregnant. The CPS worker said an 8-year-old later told her the girl is under 16 and has four children.

I changed your bolding to emphasize a different sentence.....the bolded about the 8 year old gives me GREAT hope that these victims still have enough of themselves left, despite the brainwashing and threats, to speak up and help save themselves.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 09:29 AM
SusiQ, I refer to your post on the last thread about the church denouncing polygamy. Yes they denounce, but say it is not wrong. IOW they talk out both sides of their mouths. They do not give a clear view on this because it would taint all the forbears who not only were polygamist, they encouraged the practice.

This religion, (and yes, I have trouble equating this with a religion because I've read the history and know the practice) is isolationist, based on secret teachings that few, if any have seen. The Moonies have bought their way into respectability, and they followed the example of the LDS.

The past tense is key here. Good God, this is 2008.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 09:32 AM
Barb0301 you were wondering why the FBI got involved. I think it's because these girls were being transferred from one compound to another, and that's across state lines for the purpose of sex maybe?
And maybe they wanted the jackhammer to bust into the vault, if it's in the floor?

That would be a very good reason for the FBI to get involved. I think they served a federal warrant yesterday. Could be all kinds of things they are looking for. It will be interesting to see what the warrant says, if it becomes public. And yeah, I'm sure noone just stepped up and said here, lemme open that up for you, so they had to use the jackhammers. What a mess.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 09:35 AM
Thanks Fairy, it was a very traumatic and weird. What happened to me was a real fluke and could have had serious consequences. Ok, enough about me.


***
The below linked article really has me upset. I've always liked Utah's AG. However, his attempt to excuse the non-action of the State of Utah towards polygamy is just flat out unacceptable. No wonder Texas doesn't want his help. Utah's non action resulted in the FLDS causing Texas the headache they have today. And what would Mark teach them? How to make lame excuses maybe?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3049050


Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says, "Whether you think we should or not, it can't be done." He says he's facing new criticism, alongside Arizona's Attorney General, that they haven't done enough to prosecute polygamists. He cites a lack of infrastructure -- things like room in prisons and foster care homes -- as one of the reasons Utah will not be following in Texas' footsteps.
"It's impossible; it's not practical; 416 is a lot, even for a big organization like Texas, but we have thousands here," Shurtleff said.
Shurtleff's office had planned to serve 80 warrants to members of the Kingston clan more than a year ago but backed off due, in part, to promises from Kingston attorneys that their clients would cooperate. Those promises fell through and many of the 80 fled.
Despite that instance, Shurtleff says allegations are handled individually. "We'll take them one case at a time, one victim at a time, one house, if you will, at a time." Shurtleff says he's offered to help authorities in Texas by sharing information and experiences but has not been taken up on that offer, a fact that surprises him.

ETA: I guess it's cheaper to pay out welfare than to address the problem.


So, in other words, there's too many abused children out there for us to take care of, so we're just going to ignore them, and let that group continue to grow and grow and grow?

NOW IF THAT'S NOT WUSSIN' OUT ON OUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS A SOCIETY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR CHILDREN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS !!! THAT IS A DISGUSTING COMMENT FOR HIM TO HAVE MADE !!!

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:35 AM
That would be a very good reason for the FBI to get involved. I think they served a federal warrant yesterday. Could be all kinds of things they are looking for. It will be interesting to see what the warrant says, if it becomes public. And yeah, I'm sure noone just stepped up and said here, lemme open that up for you, so they had to use the jackhammers. What a mess.

I thought it was interesting that the FBI served a third warrant. After the first two, what evidence could possibly be left that hadn't been taken in the first two?

.... and a jackhammer? .... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Jeez, that gives me the willies!

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 09:36 AM
Since the state has control of over $100 Million in church funds to BENEFIT the members. His excuses sound very lame.

I had to laugh out loud over his comment that he's surprised Texas hasn't called him. Like he's been doing such a good job that Texas needs or wants his advise.

I know! Either Mark is behaving very oddly or his true colors have just come out. He has done more to stand against polygamy than any other Utah AG. He was the first to bring the plight of the Lost Boys to the forefront and has consistently fought for their rights. So his recent comments have thrown me for a loop.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 09:42 AM
Since the state has control of over $100 Million in church funds to BENEFIT the members. His excuses sound very lame.



I would imagine that the group in TX has funds separate from the $100 Million, right? Since they aren't in Utah, they could keep their funds separate, as could other locations. Utah would have no control.

scarpetta
04-10-2008, 09:43 AM
These old perverts do know that women who are older than in their teens can have lots of babies too, right?

What a great arrangement for them. Free to be pedophiles and then get the government to foot the bill. They never legally marry any of the children they rape and claim as a "wife", and so all of these women can apply for welfare assistance. The rapists earn money on the side and give it all to their leaders, and in exchange the leaders provide lawyers that try their best to keep them from being prosecuted for these crimes.

How convenient that the only ancient "customs" they hold dear are the ones that allow them to have an unlimited amount of sex with young children that they choose like a trip to the candy store. U.S. taxpayers have been picking up the tab for this sexual pervert haven, and so the U.S. is demanding accountability. That's how it works. If they have a problem with our legal system or feel persecuted by evil government then perhaps they should have stepped out of the welfare line and relied instead on whoever is telling them to live this way. I am all in favor of taxes going to those who truly need assistance, that is the system we have in place. But when it is the government who is paying for your groceries and your housing and your light bill, then biting the hand that feeds you is especially egregious.

Those poor men who are so brainwashed and don't know any better, and really they have no idea there is anything wrong going on. Ummm....why is it always the WOMEN who report it? Has an older FLDS man EVER called the police and said he was being raped or abused? Again, how convenient to claim the "brainwashed" condition. How convenient it is their "religion." How odd too that the religions who are the strictest when it comes to monitoring the "behavior" of their members are also the one's with the most sexual crimes against their membership.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:50 AM
I would imagine that the group in TX has funds separate from the $100 Million, right? Since they aren't in Utah, they could keep their funds separate, as could other locations. Utah would have no control.

From what I've read, the trust funds were used to create the Eldorado compound.

http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ022405a.html

Interestingly, a group of former FLDS members, including Richard Holm, John W. Nielson and Merril T. Stubbs, are supporting the effort to oust the current UEP trustees and are recommending a new slate of trustees be appointed to guide the trust fund. Among the new trustees being proposed is Caroline Jessop, former 4th sister wife of Merrill Jessop, the man who reportedly oversees daily operations at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 09:52 AM
These old perverts do know that women who are older than in their teens can have lots of babies too, right?

What a great arrangement for them. Free to be pedophiles and then get the government to foot the bill. They never legally marry any of the children they rape and claim as a "wife", and so all of these women can apply for welfare assistance. The rapists earn money on the side and give it all to their leaders, and in exchange the leaders provide lawyers that try their best to keep them from being prosecuted for these crimes.

How convenient that the only ancient "customs" they hold dear are the ones that allow them to have an unlimited amount of sex with young children that they choose like a trip to the candy store. U.S. taxpayers have been picking up the tab for this sexual pervert haven, and so the U.S. is demanding accountability. That's how it works. If they have a problem with our legal system or feel persecuted by evil government then perhaps they should have stepped out of the welfare line and relied instead on whoever is telling them to live this way. I am all in favor of taxes going to those who truly need assistance, that is the system we have in place. But when it is the government who is paying for your groceries and your housing and your light bill, then biting the hand that feeds you is especially egregious.

Those poor men who are so brainwashed and don't know any better, and really they have no idea there is anything wrong going on. Ummm....why is it always the WOMEN who report it? Has an older FLDS man EVER called the police and said he was being raped or abused? Again, how convenient to claim the "brainwashed" condition. How convenient it is their "religion." How odd too that the religions who are the strictest when it comes to monitoring the "behavior" of their members are also the one's with the most sexual crimes against their membership.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:52 AM
Those poor men who are so brainwashed and don't know any better, and really they have no idea there is anything wrong going on. Ummm....why is it always the WOMEN who report it? Has an older FLDS man EVER called the police and said he was being raped or abused? Again, how convenient to claim the "brainwashed" condition. How convenient it is their "religion." How odd too that the religions who are the strictest when it comes to monitoring the "behavior" of their members are also the one's with the most sexual crimes against their membership.

Actually, yes ... I think it was Jeffs own nephew. I'd have to search around to find a link to the story.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:55 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

In July 2004, Warren Jeffs' nephew, Brent Jeffs, filed a lawsuit against him alleging that in the late 1980s his uncle sodomized him in the Salt Lake Valley compound then owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Brent Jeffs said he was five or six years old at the time, and that Warren Jeffs' brothers, also named in the lawsuit, watched and participated in the abuse. Two of Warren Jeffs' other nephews also made similar abuse claims against him. One of the alleged victims, Clayne Jeffs, committed suicide with a firearm after accusing Warren Jeffs of sexually assaulting him as a child.[23]

Rino
04-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Another girl told a CPS worker she did not know her own age but acknowledged having a two-year-old and being pregnant. The CPS worker said an 8-year-old later told her the girl is under 16 and has four children.
This breaks my heart

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 10:12 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

In July 2004, Warren Jeffs' nephew, Brent Jeffs, filed a lawsuit against him alleging that in the late 1980s his uncle sodomized him in the Salt Lake Valley compound then owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Brent Jeffs said he was five or six years old at the time, and that Warren Jeffs' brothers, also named in the lawsuit, watched and participated in the abuse. Two of Warren Jeffs' other nephews also made similar abuse claims against him. One of the alleged victims, Clayne Jeffs, committed suicide with a firearm after accusing Warren Jeffs of sexually assaulting him as a child.[23]


That is so repulsive. The more I read about this cult, the sicker I get. I feel so bad for the kids who are locked into this lifestyle. And all of this being done under "religion"? Sick.

Mygirlsadie
04-10-2008, 10:40 AM
So if the men are having sex with the little boys and the men are sleeping with the females everybody is sleeping with everybody they don't go to doctors wouldnt STD's be running rampant amongst that whole place? You can't tell me just because they are a ''closed community'' that they are immune.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 10:51 AM
So if the men are having sex with the little boys and the men are sleeping with the females everybody is sleeping with everybody they don't go to doctors wouldnt STD's be running rampant amongst that whole place? You can't tell me just because they are a ''closed community'' that they are immune.

I can see how it wouldn't be since the women are so tightly controlled and the men stay strictly within the community. What's running rampant is genetic defects. :mad:

Trino
04-10-2008, 10:54 AM
That is so repulsive. The more I read about this cult, the sicker I get. I feel so bad for the kids who are locked into this lifestyle. And all of this being done under "religion"? Sick.

You are so right. HOWEVER, why does the US snuggle up to the Saudis when many also have multiple wives?

Read below about child molestation in Saudi Arabia:

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=484

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 10:57 AM
You are so right. HOWEVER, why does the US snuggle up to the Saudis when many also have multiple wives?

Read below about child molestation in Saudi Arabia:

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=484

Thanks for the link, Trino!!! How sad. Those poor, innocent kids. :mad: We live in a sick world.

Linda7NJ
04-10-2008, 10:59 AM
The presser is in a few minutes...if someone finds a station that's covering it can you please post it?

Thanks

Moe
04-10-2008, 11:01 AM
It scares me to think this goes on, and we are just at the tip of the iceberg.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 11:06 AM
New Smoking Gun documents:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 11:12 AM
I'm not finding a live feed anywhere.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 11:15 AM
I'm not finding a live feed anywhere.

I didn't either, but the feed out of Detroit is fascinating. It's hard to split my interest on these cases.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 11:16 AM
I didn't either, but the feed out of Detroit is fascinating. It's hard to split my interest on these cases.

Something other than penguins? I'm heading over to take a look.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 11:18 AM
Something other than penguins? I'm heading over to take a look.

LOL, the penguins are grilling an attorney about the secret agreement.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 11:44 AM
The presser is in a few minutes...if someone finds a station that's covering it can you please post it?

Thanks

I think the presser is at 11am CDT. It looks like there will be a live feed from here : http://stage-v2.ksl.com/?nid=10

Linda7NJ
04-10-2008, 11:53 AM
I think the presser is at 11am CDT. It looks like there will be a live feed from here : http://stage-v2.ksl.com/?nid=10


oh thank you! I forgot the whole time zone thing:bang:

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:02 PM
I think the presser is at 11am CDT. It looks like there will be a live feed from here : http://stage-v2.ksl.com/?nid=10

Thank you Barb!

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:05 PM
I want some ham and cheese waffles now.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:06 PM
I'll make the coffee while you prepare the waffles

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:28 PM
Found no Unmarked Graves - interesting, but that was the reason for cadaver dogs being brought in, there was report of unmarked graves

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:28 PM
I may have to go to Rachel Rays website to try to find that recipe.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:29 PM
Found no Unmarked Graves - interesting, but that was the reason for cadaver dogs being brought in, there was report of unmarked graves

Interesting.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:30 PM
I may have to go to Rachel Rays website to try to find that recipe.

me too - sounded great !!

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:36 PM
CPS will have a presser later on today. No time given. Did anyone hear why the search for unmarked graves was done? Was it based on some info they obtained? Or were they worried that the girl who made the call was now dead?

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:38 PM
CPS will have a presser later on today. No time given. Did anyone hear why the search for unmarked graves was done? Was it based on some info they obtained? Or were they worried that the girl who made the call was now dead?

They said they had "information" that there may be unmarked graves located on the property. I don't know if that came from the informant they had been working with or from interviews.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 12:40 PM
I hope the informants identity will be protected. The person must be shaking in their boots right now. I would be!

barb0301
04-10-2008, 12:43 PM
I hope the informants identity will be protected. The person must be shaking in their boots right now. I would be!

You and me both !! EEK !!

It sounded like the informant was more of an "educational" type of tool for the sheriff, rather than giving info on specific instances. Probably knew some of the people in the compound and certainly about the culture. I hope whoever they are, they know what a hero they are!

SweetPea2
04-10-2008, 12:45 PM
This outrages me! Hiding behind religion (if that's what you wanna call it) to torture, rape, molest, control these children. Saddened and sickened and glad the State of Texas has took a stand in this!

LionRun
04-10-2008, 12:54 PM
ITA, SweetPea. IMO, this is a pedophile, dictator type run cult whose top, male members are pedophiles that rape and otherwise abuse children and women in the NAME of religion. It is not a religion--it is a criminally based cult.

Lion

barb0301
04-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Just an FYI - Here's what I can find on TX Bigamy Law, which was used for one the search warrants:

§ 25.01. BIGAMY. (a) An individual commits an offense
if:
(1) he is legally married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry a person
other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign
country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor's prior
marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with a person other than his spouse in
this state under the appearance of being married; or
(2) he knows that a married person other than his
spouse is married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry that person
in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under
circumstances that would, but for the person's prior marriage,
constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with that person in this state under
the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with
cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(1)
that the actor reasonably believed at the time of the commission of
the offense that the actor and the person whom the actor married or
purported to marry or with whom the actor lived under the appearance
of being married were legally eligible to be married because the
actor's prior marriage was void or had been dissolved by death,
divorce, or annulment. For purposes of this subsection, an actor's
belief is reasonable if the belief is substantiated by a certified
copy of a death certificate or other signed document issued by a
court.
(d) For the purposes of this section, the lawful wife or
husband of the actor may testify both for or against the actor
concerning proof of the original marriage.
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree, except that if at the time of the commission of the offense,
the person whom the actor marries or purports to marry or with whom
the actor lives under the appearance of being married is:
(1) 16 years of age or older, the offense is a felony
of the second degree; or
(2) younger than 16 years of age, the offense is a
felony of the first degree.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.006.00.000025.00.htm

WhitneyLea
04-10-2008, 01:08 PM
CPS will have a presser later on today. No time given. Did anyone hear why the search for unmarked graves was done? Was it based on some info they obtained? Or were they worried that the girl who made the call was now dead?

I'm glad they did the search ... if this group is beating women & children and waterboarding infants ... it's easy to imagine that there could have been some resulting deaths that the FLDS would not want reported or investigated. I think that information alone would probably warrant a search ... props to LE for covering the bases.

Trino
04-10-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm a bit miffed and confused about the informant. ABC news has an article that states LE knew about what was going on for FOUR years. What kind of LE agency would allow this to go on for years?

Leila
04-10-2008, 01:27 PM
I really hope this is true!

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamists_10tex.ART.State.Edition1.46ab4b7.html

SAN ANGELO, Texas – Child welfare officials said Wednesday that they're nearly certain the teenage girl whose complaint triggered the removal of 416 children from a West Texas polygamist compound is in their care but is too afraid to identify herself.

"We are confident that she was at the ranch. We know she exists," said Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner

On page one of this thread, I posted a link to the video of the press conference with Marleigh Meisner in which she states they're pretty confident they have the girl. She also said that all the adult women are free to go at any time, but none have chosen to do so.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 01:29 PM
I knew that they'd raise this point!

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8872379
Since then, authorities have removed 419 children, accompanied by 139 mothers. But authorities say they still have not located the girl who made the calls - which FLDS attorneys say raises questions about the legality of the search.

BhamMama
04-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Just an FYI - Here's what I can find on TX Bigamy Law, which was used for one the search warrants:


Which prolly won't hold because this isn't bigamy but polygamy. Difference is they don't have more than one legal marriage which you have to have to be in a bigamist marriage. Polygamy is only spiritual marriage. More or less, it's shacking up with a label.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm a bit miffed and confused about the informant. ABC news has an article that states LE knew about what was going on for FOUR years. What kind of LE agency would allow this to go on for years?

I was just going to post my props to Texas. Utah and Arizona have basically sat on their butts, allowing sect members to take over positions like, school superintendent, police chief and officers, mayor, etc.

In order not to be second guessed on this raid they had to have strong probable cause to enter. Although 4 years sounds like a long time, keep in mind that Texas has only been dealing with this group for 4 years. Utah and Arizona had them 95 YEARS.

jubie
04-10-2008, 01:37 PM
In regards to unmarked graves I suppose they could bury a body beneath an other body with a marked grave.:eek:



Jubie

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 01:44 PM
I'm glad they did the search ... if this group is beating women & children and waterboarding infants ... it's easy to imagine that there could have been some resulting deaths that the FLDS would not want reported or investigated. I think that information alone would probably warrant a search ... props to LE for covering the bases.

Someone of authority outside the sect has had to wonder about this. But imagine that there is a suspicious death. Between the in cahoots cops and judge....not one thing would happen. I have no doubt there are victims buried in plain site in their cemetaries. Most would be in Utah or AZ.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 01:51 PM
Oh yeah, go about your business (child sex abuse, etc) because we ain't gonna do anything about it. WTF????? Maybe if they thought someone was coming after them they might actually obey the law! A Quote from the below link:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3050398


The raid of a polygamous ranch in Texas is making polygamous communities in Utah so nervous, they need reassuring. Enter Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith.
"I just want them to know this isn't going to be a concerted effort on the part of all law enforcement to sweep through every polygamous community," he said. He says he told Hildale's mayor it's business as usual for now.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 01:52 PM
Which prolly won't hold because this isn't bigamy but polygamy. Difference is they don't have more than one legal marriage which you have to have to be in a bigamist marriage. Polygamy is only spiritual marriage. More or less, it's shacking up with a label.

However, TX is a state that recognizes common law marriages. Even in the statute that I posted, it is defined:
(B) lives with that person in this state under the appearance of being married.
(b) For purposes of this section, "under the appearance of
being married" means holding out that the parties are married with cohabitation and an intent to be married by either party.
Don't know why they couldn't make it stick. ???

cheko1
04-10-2008, 02:05 PM
:clap: :clap:

Wow. Well said, cheko. :clap:

Thanks Taximom, I am just very angry about this. I have a Granddaughter that is 9 yrs of age & if I ever found out she had been raped they had better hope I 'NEVER' found out. I'd go balistics!!!

cheko1
04-10-2008, 02:08 PM
Oh yeah, go about your business (child sex abuse, etc) because we ain't gonna do anything about it. WTF????? Maybe if they thought someone was coming after them they might actually obey the law! A Quote from the below link:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3050398


The raid of a polygamous ranch in Texas is making polygamous communities in Utah so nervous, they need reassuring. Enter Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith.
"I just want them to know this isn't going to be a concerted effort on the part of all law enforcement to sweep through every polygamous community," he said. He says he told Hildale's mayor it's business as usual for now.

It SHOULD be a concerted effort on the part of all LE in the country. They all should live in fear if they're raping & beating on babies & kids. This is a sickness that definately needs ended.

cheko1
04-10-2008, 02:18 PM
What disgusts me is the fact that they do all these dirty deeds and try and justify them in the name of God. Are they nuts? Yes they are.. I wish all these ''cults'' would be illegal. I know it's hard to just do that. But nothing good ever came out of any of these cults...

Well said Sadie!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

barb0301
04-10-2008, 02:21 PM
WOW - check this out - another "religious" group in TX is under investigation, and charges have been filed for PROMOTING BIGAMY:

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/feb/14/no-headline---hawkins_arrest/

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/Feb/15/yisrayl-hawkins-will-go-trial-bigamy/

froggierintexas
04-10-2008, 02:23 PM
In regards to unmarked graves I suppose they could bury a body beneath an other body with a marked grave.:eek:



Jubie


I was thinking the same thing. Surely LE has considered this.

Leila
04-10-2008, 02:31 PM
This is from the Salt Lake City Tribune and was posted yesterday in the first thread. If this is accurate, then people in Utah know the identity of the 16-year-old girl and her husband, and know that a mistake was made. The girl's husband is not Dale Evans Barlow - it's another man named Barlow, who is related to Dale Evans Barlow.

The Joni Holm mentioned in the article below, and her husband, have been doing foster care of teens who've escaped the FLDS. The entire article is here:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8859783

The Salt Lake Tribune, which generally does not name alleged victims of sexual abuse, and other media outlets have not published the girl's name.

But Holm said the girl's identity, and the correct identity of her husband, is "common knowledge" in Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, where the sect has traditionally been based.

The Tribune is not naming the man identified by Holm as the girl's husband because he has not been named as a suspect or in court filings.

Holm, who is married to a former FLDS member, said she has spoken with people who know the teenager. She thinks Texas officials confused the two Barlows.

She believes it is possible the teenager did not know her husband's correct age and told authorities he is about 50. Also, she noted, Dale Barlow has a 2007 conviction in Arizona for criminal charges related to marrying and impregnating a different 16-year-old girl, which may have contributed to confusion.

Jules
04-10-2008, 02:34 PM
[COLOR=Blue] it's another man named Barlow, who is related to Dale Evans Barlow.

I'm beginning to think they are all related to each other. :( I'm afraid we're going to find out just how inbred some of these cults really are. :mad:

Pepper
04-10-2008, 02:44 PM
WOW - check this out - another "religious" group in TX is under investigation, and charges have been filed for PROMOTING BIGAMY:

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/feb/14/no-headline---hawkins_arrest/

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/Feb/15/yisrayl-hawkins-will-go-trial-bigamy/

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that while I think bigamy and polygamy is disgusting and repugnant, I don't think it is wise to prosecute anyone for those acts alone. Why? Because if the parties are above the age of consent then I think it is a victimless crime, and the only parties involved are consenting adults. I think these laws might be overturned by the appellate courts and probably the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional. Why waste alot of public money to prosecute on these charges, when I'd rather see them go after crimes against the real victims - the children.

Now in the case of polygamy involving minors under the age of consent, that is sexual child abuse, and those cases should definitely be prosecuted. But if 30 yr. olds decide to live in polygamy, then it shouldn't involve the courts.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 02:44 PM
I'm beginning to think they are all related to each other. :( I'm afraid we're going to find out just how inbred some of these cults really are. :mad:


Hey Jules! Glad you made it through the storms. Texas got hammered!.

Can you imagine the funding and resources involved in doing DNA testing to clear up this mess? My knowlege regarding DNA testing is limited. But can the tests results be so defined that they can determine whether a child's parents are lets say, half siblings? Or would the tests merely indicate they are related somehow?

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 02:47 PM
Pepper, I pretty much agree with that. And also if the adults aren't close enough related that it affects children born from that relationship.

Jules
04-10-2008, 02:49 PM
Hey Jules! Glad you made it through the storms. Texas got hammered!.

Can you imagine the funding and resources involved in doing DNA testing to clear up this mess? My knowlege regarding DNA testing is limited. But can the tests results be so defined that they can determine whether a child's parents are lets say, half siblings? Or would the tests merely indicate they are related somehow?

Hey SuziQ (I love your hat - cute)!

Still storming somewhat here - it's on and off. :(

I'm not sure on that either. I'll have to ask my mom. She'd know better than I. I would think it would be extremely difficult to sort out and VERY expensive.

This whole mess just turns my stomach! Sick sick sick!

Pepper
04-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Pepper, I pretty much agree with that. And also if the adults aren't close enough related that it affects children born from that relationship.

Incest is a different matter, though I'm not sure about prosecuting that either, because it won't undo what has been done if a child is involved. Since we all know that government resources are limited, I want to see those resources used to prosecute those who have committed crimes against children, and I want the children protected.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 02:51 PM
Below are some links for anyone who missed the LE presser today:

Texas authorities release details about FLDS compound raid
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3051546

Video of presser:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=3050941&nid=165

barb0301
04-10-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that while I think bigamy and polygamy is disgusting and repugnant, I don't think it is wise to prosecute anyone for those acts alone. Why? Because if the parties are above the age of consent then I think it is a victimless crime, and the only parties involved are consenting adults. I think these laws might be overturned by the appellate courts and probably the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional. Why waste alot of public money to prosecute on these charges, when I'd rather see them go after crimes against the real victims - the children.

Now in the case of polygamy involving minors under the age of consent, that is sexual child abuse, and those cases should definitely be prosecuted. But if 30 yr. olds decide to live in polygamy, then it shouldn't involve the courts.

I agree with you. I am only concerned about those under the age of consent. What I found interesting was the fact that bigamy is being prosecuted in TX, even without children being involved.

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 03:09 PM
Pepper, I agree too. But I don't think it's right for these people to be receiving government assistance either. If they can afford to live that way and support themselves, more power to them. But if you can't afford more than one wife, stick with one. Don't have 17 children and expect the taxpayers to support them.

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 03:12 PM
Thanks for the link Suzi. Someone mentioned this earlier but why, if they have known about this stuff going on for four years, was nothing done about it until now? Did they have to wait for a victim to come forward first (which would be "Sarah" in this case)?

sherri79
04-10-2008, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the link Suzi. Someone mentioned this earlier but why, if they have known about this stuff going on for four years, was nothing done about it until now? Did they have to wait for a victim to come forward first (which would be "Sarah" in this case)?
the police know where crack is sold in my town. they know who the gang members are. knowing is not enough. they must have a legal basis to act. in this case as soon as they had a possible criminal complaint they moved.

the speed with which they moved tells me they have been waiting for the chance to act as soon as the law would allow.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 03:19 PM
Pepper, I agree too. But I don't think it's right for these people to be receiving government assistance either. If they can afford to live that way and support themselves, more power to them. But if you can't afford more than one wife, stick with one. Don't have 17 children and expect the taxpayers to support them.

Agreed! I think there is a myriad of laws they could use to press charges, to name just a few:

Welfare fraud
Building code violations & lack of building permits
No building inspectons
Zoning law violations
Probably unlicensed drivers and vehicles
IRS laws - failure to file tax returns
Sales tax laws - they are probably buying and reselling stuff at a store and not charging taxes.

When a group like this chooses to live in isolation I'm sure there are many laws and codes that aren't being followed. So if they were slapped with the maximum fines for every infraction, maybe Texas could bankrupt the cult.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 03:20 PM
Thanks for the link Suzi. Someone mentioned this earlier but why, if they have known about this stuff going on for four years, was nothing done about it until now? Did they have to wait for a victim to come forward first (which would be "Sarah" in this case)?

Yes, they did have to wait. According to the press conference this morning, they are not saying where their "informant" is that has been working with them for 4 years. I don't believe the "informant" was in Eldorado, or they would have been able to provide enough details/names of pregnant girls, etc. to give "probable cause" much earlier. The informant could be someone who left the group sometime in the past.

It took someone like "Sarah" to come forward with specific information to get a warrant. When LE has gone out to visit the compound in the past, the only ones that were allowed to talk to them are the leaders of the compound. All others stayed hidden indoors. Even in the pics taken by various pilots over the last couple of years, you never see anyone out and about.

Leila
04-10-2008, 03:21 PM
I'm beginning to think they are all related to each other. :( I'm afraid we're going to find out just how inbred some of these cults really are. :mad:

The ARE all inter-related. The most common names running through the FLDS community is Jeffs, Barlow, Jessop/Jessep, Steed, and a few others. With the members of the cult marrying into each family for the past 100 years, they're all cousins, nephews, uncles or bear some sort of relationship. This is why there's such a high incidence of birth defects among the members.

The way I see it, this is all about sexual abuse of children, physical abuse of women and children, false imprisonment, instilling fear, false teachings (yes we did land on the moon, and no, the black people weren't made black because they've sinned, and no, people outside of the FLDS are not evil). None of this has anything to do with religion and the worship of God. The FLDS is a man-made cult for the purpose of pedophiles.

After reading the articles linked, we can be hopeful that Texas will do something in regards to the YFZ compound in El Dorado. But, it's becoming painfully obvious that Utah and to a lesser extent Arizona, are unwilling to do what's necessary. The predominant LDS population in both states, that share a common history with the FLDS, are unwilling to take a firm position on this issue.

The communities of Hilsdale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona combined have the largest population of FLDS. They are the source for the building and populating of the YFZ compound in Texas. Until something is done with these two communities, they will just re-populate the YFZ compound in Texas and begin where they left off.

Jules
04-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Thanks Leila, I'm having a hard time keeping up with everything while at work. ;)

I agree with your entire post.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 03:31 PM
Yes, they did have to wait. According to the press conference this morning, they are not saying where their "informant" is that has been working with them for 4 years. I don't believe the "informant" was in Eldorado, or they would have been able to provide enough details/names of pregnant girls, etc. to give "probable cause" much earlier. The informant could be someone who left the group sometime in the past.

It took someone like "Sarah" to come forward with specific information to get a warrant. When LE has gone out to visit the compound in the past, the only ones that were allowed to talk to them are the leaders of the compound. All others stayed hidden indoors. Even in the pics taken by various pilots over the last couple of years, you never see anyone out and about.

Yeah, except at this link. And I am still bothered by these pictures because the kids look nothing like the ones just gathered from Texas. The kids in these pictures are all dressed in normal clothes and the girls have styled hair. Something just doesn't ring true here. I can't believe these kids are FLDS.

http://protophoto.com/subject.html?subject_id=549

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 03:36 PM
the police know where crack is sold in my town. they know who the gang members are. knowing is not enough. they must have a legal basis to act. in this case as soon as they had a possible criminal complaint they moved.

the speed with which they moved tells me they have been waiting for the chance to act as soon as the law would allow.

thanks, sherri. That's what I was thinking but I didn't know for sure. I have called our local Crime Stoppers to tell them about someone who I KNOW is dealing drugs - given them his name, license plate number, etc. But they can't do anything unless they catch him in the act. Same sort of thing, I guess.

Truly
04-10-2008, 03:37 PM
(Bringing forward golfmom's post(#254 in thread 1):
here's an article regarding the group's financial assets:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy444.html )

There was $100,000 per month coming in to the FLDS from that one precision machine shop alone. The women may be getting food stamps, but the men have been getting defense contracts. That may be another reason why they have not been aggressively prosecuted?

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 03:41 PM
Yeah, except at this link. And I am still bothered by these pictures because the kids look nothing like the ones just gathered from Texas. The kids in these pictures are all dressed in normal clothes and the girls have styled hair. Something just doesn't ring true here. I can't believe these kids are FLDS.

http://protophoto.com/subject.html?subject_id=549

I am still scratching my head over the pics at that site. If it weren't for the fact of what their posters say, I would not believe these kids were FLDS. Another Polygamist group maybe. The Kingstons dress normally for the most part. I've seen in person polygamist groups marching at the City County building and at the capital. They've always worn whatever they usually wear, which isn't what's portrayed in those pics.

Hopeful One
04-10-2008, 03:49 PM
Did anyone see Larry King last night? A polygamist woman he had on there last night looked very "normal". I know I've seen her and her family on another show quite some time ago and I forgot their names. But they don't dress like the typical FLDS, such as the ones we're seeing from YFZ.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 03:50 PM
I am still scratching my head over the pics at that site. If it weren't for the fact of what their posters say, I would not believe these kids were FLDS. Another Polygamist group maybe. The Kingstons dress normally for the most part. I've seen in person polygamist groups marching at the City County building and at the capital. They've always worn whatever they usually wear, which isn't what's portrayed in those pics.

I was wondering if the pictures were a representation of those located furthest away from the roots of the sect. Just like, not every Scientologist dresses like Sea-Org, maybe those away from actual compounds don't dress like refugees from the prairie.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 03:53 PM
Did anyone see Larry King last night? A polygamist woman he had on there last night looked very "normal". I know I've seen her and her family on another show quite some time ago and I forgot their names. But they don't dress like the typical FLDS, such as the ones we're seeing from YFZ.

I didn't see the show. But was it one of Tom Green's wives? Him and his wives were on every talk show they could get on a few years back.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 03:54 PM
I was wondering if the pictures were a representation of those located furthest away from the roots of the sect. Just like, not every Scientologist dresses like Sea-Org, maybe those away from actual compounds don't dress like refugees from the prairie. But I thought one of the FLDS rules was that the women could never cut their hair, and clearly some of these girls hair has seen scissors! It just doesn't make any sense to me.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 03:55 PM
I am still scratching my head over the pics at that site. If it weren't for the fact of what their posters say, I would not believe these kids were FLDS. Another Polygamist group maybe. The Kingstons dress normally for the most part. I've seen in person polygamist groups marching at the City County building and at the capital. They've always worn whatever they usually wear, which isn't what's portrayed in those pics.

I found the photos at that site quite odd myself. The kids don't look at all like FLDS members. Think that they were staged? New clothes bought just for the Rally? Scripts written? I can't find much info still out there on the net about it.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 03:57 PM
I was wondering if the pictures were a representation of those located furthest away from the roots of the sect. Just like, not every Scientologist dresses like Sea-Org, maybe those away from actual compounds don't dress like refugees from the prairie.

It would have to be somthing like that. I know that the strict dress code that we see in the FLDS today is mandated by Warren Jeffs. Now his dad wasn't nearly as strict, but he's been dead for quite awhile now.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 04:00 PM
But I thought one of the FLDS rules was that the women could never cut their hair, and clearly some of these girls hair has seen scissors! It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Outside the fact that the Kingstons look odd because of genetics, they did dress rather normally. But I don't think even they cut their hair either.

BTW, what are the FLDS women washing their hair with? They have gorgeous hair!

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:09 PM
LOL, I saw an article about the hair styles this morning.

Quite frankly, I'm very puzzled about the photos taken by the independent photographer. Perhaps, he linked them to FLDS, but they are actually independents? Quite frankly, that makes more sense, as I understand FLDS they don't care what people think and shun the world. Why would they bother staging a protest?

Trino
04-10-2008, 04:13 PM
I am still scratching my head over the pics at that site. If it weren't for the fact of what their posters say, I would not believe these kids were FLDS. Another Polygamist group maybe. The Kingstons dress normally for the most part. I've seen in person polygamist groups marching at the City County building and at the capital. They've always worn whatever they usually wear, which isn't what's portrayed in those pics.

I don't understand why the kids at this rally weren't taken into custody.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:16 PM
These three mothers say they "happened to be gone" the day of the raid. I wonder if they're out-of-state moms who's kids were reassigned to Eldorado.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

Three mothers of 10 children taken from the Yearn For Zion Ranch by Texas authorities told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday that child welfare authorities will not allow them to see or talk to their children.

"I am their biological mother. They will not let me in to see my children," said Monica, a 34-year-old woman with five children ranging in age from 3 to 12 years old. "They have my children and I don't know why. I have asked to see them and have been told no. I am not going to sit here and let them have my children. I don't know what, but I am going to do something. I am going to see my children."

Leila
04-10-2008, 04:22 PM
Did anyone see Larry King last night? A polygamist woman he had on there last night looked very "normal". I know I've seen her and her family on another show quite some time ago and I forgot their names. But they don't dress like the typical FLDS, such as the ones we're seeing from YFZ.

Shamrock..............yes I watched Larry King last night and it was an exceptional program. The lady's name was Valerie, and she lives in Salt Lake City. She is one of three wives and they all care for the 22 children they've had among the three. She was dressed as anyone else would be and had jewelry on and had a shoulder-length hairstyle. She described her daily life and said she enjoys having sister-wives to talk to, go shopping with, etc. She was raised in polygamy, but obviously not the FLDS, as she didn't marry until she was 18. She said all the children go to public school. She also said she was not affiliated with the LDS church.

Also on the program were Laurie Allen, who produced "Banking on Heaven" and another woman named Penny (forgot her surname). Both were exceptionally informative on what goes on inside the FLDS.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:29 PM
I posted this link in the last thread, but it's by the same producers of "Banking on Heaven" --- well worth the 82 minute investment of watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjDJs7wvGLg&feature=related

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:33 PM
Oh MY! I found a youtube link for that rally with the kids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm57gOa6wYA&feature=related

Leila
04-10-2008, 04:40 PM
These three mothers say they "happened to be gone" the day of the raid. I wonder if they're out-of-state moms who's kids were reassigned to Eldorado.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269215,00.html

Three mothers of 10 children taken from the Yearn For Zion Ranch by Texas authorities told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday that child welfare authorities will not allow them to see or talk to their children.

"I am their biological mother. They will not let me in to see my children," said Monica, a 34-year-old woman with five children ranging in age from 3 to 12 years old. "They have my children and I don't know why. I have asked to see them and have been told no. I am not going to sit here and let them have my children. I don't know what, but I am going to do something. I am going to see my children."

I read the article at the link. Interesting to note that two of the mothers are Mrs. Barlow and Mrs. Johnson. Barlow, of course, is one of the names that is most common among the FLDS. Johnson was the name of "the prophet" in charge of the FLDS prior to Rulon Jeffs, who was followed by his son, Warren Jeffs. The surname of the third mother, Monica, wasn't given.

What I'm wondering is where these three women were, since they aren't allowed outside the compound? Were they at one of the factories within the compound or were they in Colorado City or Hilsdale?

mysteriew
04-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Hey Jules! Glad you made it through the storms. Texas got hammered!.

Can you imagine the funding and resources involved in doing DNA testing to clear up this mess? My knowlege regarding DNA testing is limited. But can the tests results be so defined that they can determine whether a child's parents are lets say, half siblings? Or would the tests merely indicate they are related somehow?

I wonder about this also. I too know little about DNA. I know that two brothers or sisters will have different DNA, but twins will have the same DNA. I know that percentages of the general population are used in figuring DNA matchs. But when you look at a population where two different people who have the same relatives going back for generations, that would have to affect the outcome of a match. This aspect is going to be interesting. And will probably educational as far as increasing the technical field of DNA.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:46 PM
FYI if you go to youtube and search "polygamy rights rally" there are clips of a number of kids speaking. They don't specifically identify themselves as FLDS, so I'm assuming that the photographer got it wrong and they're either from another group or independents.

ETA: Definitely these are "independents". The person who's hosting these videos has numerous postings supporting polygamy that can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonratay

Also, this is the website they refer to: http://mormonmessenger.org/
which supports and justifies plural marriages.

Leila
04-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Oh MY! I found a youtube link for that rally with the kids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm57gOa6wYA&feature=related

That girl and the other children at that rally must be from an independent sect of the FLDS. The girl and the others don't look or act anything like those from Hilsdale, Colorado City, or the YFZ compound.

The ones removed from the YFZ compound not only dress differently, they don't wear makeup, and are not outgoing in a situation outside the confines of their community.

It's known that Warren Jeffs presides over the communities of Hilsdale, Colorado City, the YFZ compound, one in South Dakota and one in British Columbia, Canada. I suspect that the children at that rally have to be from communities not under Jeffs rule.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 04:53 PM
Yeah, Leila I agree with you, I think that the photographer misidentified the kids as belonging to FLDS.

trixie
04-10-2008, 05:08 PM
I read the article at the link. Interesting to note that two of the mothers are Mrs. Barlow and Mrs. Johnson. Barlow, of course, is one of the names that is most common among the FLDS. Johnson was the name of "the prophet" in charge of the FLDS prior to Rulon Jeffs, who was followed by his son, Warren Jeffs. The surname of the third mother, Monica, wasn't given.

What I'm wondering is where these three women were, since they aren't allowed outside the compound? Were they at one of the factories within the compound or were they in Colorado City or Hilsdale?

They were probably at the welfare office. I'm sure they were allowed to go THERE.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 05:22 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[/b]

They were probably at the welfare office. I'm sure they were allowed to go THERE.

Here's an interesting chart on the history of some of the fundamentalist groups that splintered from the LDS. If you click on any of the groups, it will take you to more info about them. Scroll down for the chart, although there is lots of other interesting info too

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/

Mygirlsadie
04-10-2008, 07:07 PM
Is this America? 2008? What I am seeing,hearing,reading...I think it's little house on the prarie gone bad. No? :waitasec:

Pepper
04-10-2008, 07:11 PM
I just heard that LE has a MOLE in the FLDS for the past 4 years, and this MOLE has steadily been feeding LE information! Wow!!

Truly
04-10-2008, 07:18 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4625830&page=1

abcnews reports that LE saved the temple as the last place to search, and that the FDLS 'lined up about 57 people around the walls of the temple'.

I wonder if 57 was the total number of FLDS men? :waitasec:

Mygirlsadie
04-10-2008, 07:22 PM
Wow 4 years? That is a long time to mole around and let these girls be raped and impregnated by old men and beat etc etc..I guess they needed alot of evidence to really really make this whole thing worth it though. I hope they get the book thrown at them! I wonder if there ever was a ''Sarah'' who made a phone call? :confused:



I just heard that LE has a MOLE in the FLDS for the past 4 years, and this MOLE has steadily been feeding LE information! Wow!!

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 07:26 PM
Thank you Golfmom for sorting out the photo mess.

Truly
04-10-2008, 07:31 PM
Wow 4 years? That is a long time to mole around and let these girls be raped and impregnated by old men and beat etc etc..I guess they needed alot of evidence to really really make this whole thing worth it though. I hope they get the book thrown at them! I wonder if there ever was a ''Sarah'' who made a phone call? :confused:

LE cannot act until a crime has been committed. A few years ago, there was a 'rape list' circulating in a local public high school. The police were notified, but they could not do anything until a crime was committed and a victim came forward. I hope the leaders of this cult get the book thrown at them, too! And like so many have already said, let's hope that LE have all their ducks lined up neatly in a row.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:31 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4625830&page=1

abcnews reports that LE saved the temple as the last place to search, and that the FDLS 'lined up about 57 people around the walls of the temple'.

I wonder if 57 was the total number of FLDS men? :waitasec:

You would think that they'd have every available man standing there. :crazy:

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:42 PM
OK, this is a bunch of in depth articles written by the Phoenix New Times. They are extremely proud of everything they've uncovered. Unfortunately, no one bothered to actually do anything about what the paper reported on. Lots of reading and information on FLDS at this link.

New Times staff writer John Dougherty spent months examining the secretive, isolated polygamist Mormon communites that straddle the Arizona-Utah border north of the Grand Canyon. He found a culture of sexual abuse and psychological torment as well as the unlawful expenditure of millions of dollars in public money. And it's all been going on with little attempt by the state to help the residents or put an end to the fraud.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/php/specialreports/index.php?report_id=212740

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 07:44 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3054653

(snip)

Utah's attorney general says he wasn't surprised by the beds in the temple that may have been used for sex with underage brides. But he tells KSL's "Doug Wright Show" it raises fear of what else may be, like blood atonement.
"Blood atonement meant if you apostatize, the only way you're gonna be redeemed is slit your throat from ear to ear. Now, they told them, ‘It's not been brought back yet, but it could be any minute.' People lived under that fear," Attorney General Mark Shurtleff explained. Shurtleff acknowledges people have disappeared before. He hopes the 16-year-old informant surfaces.

Truly
04-10-2008, 07:45 PM
You would think that they'd have every available man standing there. :crazy:

lol! I suppose Warren Jeffs was in jail, and they had two more men in custody, but the math sure does add up to a lot more females than males, huh?

Blood atonement? That is creepy.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 07:49 PM
Interesting article. What needs to be noted is that there are only a few of these programs and they can only offer help to basically one family at a time.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3054225

When leaving polygamy, where can women and children go?

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 07:55 PM
Ervil LeBaron's polygamist group practiced blood atonement.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/6.html

Ervil LeBaron case at Crime Library.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

I can't get a quote to print from Crime Library. But at least go to the above link and read the first two paragraphs. Lebaron put a hit on his own 17 year old pregnant daughter Becky.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:55 PM
I wonder if the other known locations are investigating?

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-10-04/news/persecution-complex/5

Jeffs began moving many FLDS members out of Hildale and Colorado City several years ago to more secure compounds in South Dakota, Texas, Colorado, Canada, Mexico, and other unknown locations.

Former FLDS members believe a massive temple under construction on a sprawling ranch near El Dorado, Texas, is the new FLDS headquarters.

Benjamin Bistline, the FLDS historian who still lives near Colorado City, says these remote areas outside Arizona and Utah are the most likely places for underage marriages to occur in the future.

"They have total control at the compounds," Bistline says. "People can't get out, and no one can get in."

There's no doubt in Bistline's mind that the FLDS will not only continue polygamy but will continue the practice of adult males marrying young girls.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 07:57 PM
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-05-25/news/it-practices-what-they-preach/2

The former bishop, who asked that I not use his name because he feared reprisals from family members, is in his late 50s. He says many mainstream LDS church members his age and older privately support fundamentalist Mormon polygamists.

"One reason the polygamists were able to continue is because [mainstream] Mormons have sympathy for them and understand their reasons and knew that regular Mormons were going to come back and practice it someday," he said. "These people are considered heroes for continuing to practice polygamy."

ETA: The two religious groups are deeply intertwined. Their beliefs are based on the same scripture. They have the same founders. The key difference is that the FLDS practices what the LDS preaches.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 08:02 PM
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-04-13/news/authorities-swarm-polygamists/2

More possible locations:

Warren Jeffs has been moving key followers to other FLDS properties scattered across the West. In the past three years, Jeffs followers have purchased land and are erecting new compounds in Eldorado, Texas; Mancos, Colorado; and, in the most recently discovered outpost, Pringle, South Dakota. The sect also has control of a large farm near Pioche, Nevada, and holdings in Bountiful, British Columbia.

trixie
04-10-2008, 08:03 PM
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-05-25/news/it-practices-what-they-preach/2

The former bishop, who asked that I not use his name because he feared reprisals from family members, is in his late 50s. He says many mainstream LDS church members his age and older privately support fundamentalist Mormon polygamists.

"One reason the polygamists were able to continue is because [mainstream] Mormons have sympathy for them and understand their reasons and knew that regular Mormons were going to come back and practice it someday," he said. "These people are considered heroes for continuing to practice polygamy."

ETA: The two religious groups are deeply intertwined. Their beliefs are based on the same scripture. They have the same founders. The key difference is that the FLDS practices what the LDS preaches.



AHA!!!! That is what I was saying in an ealier post that didn't go over too well. I'm so happy I've been vindicated. I said all along the Mormon church could have done something about this but they choose to look the other way. YES!

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 08:04 PM
Another interesting story regarding blood atonement is The Mountain Meadows Massacre. Crime Library link below. Now that I've given you all your reading assignments for the evening, I expect a five page summary by class tomorrow. lol.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 08:08 PM
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-05-25/news/it-practices-what-they-preach/2

The former bishop, who asked that I not use his name because he feared reprisals from family members, is in his late 50s. He says many mainstream LDS church members his age and older privately support fundamentalist Mormon polygamists.

"One reason the polygamists were able to continue is because [mainstream] Mormons have sympathy for them and understand their reasons and knew that regular Mormons were going to come back and practice it someday," he said. "These people are considered heroes for continuing to practice polygamy."

ETA: The two religious groups are deeply intertwined. Their beliefs are based on the same scripture. They have the same founders. The key difference is that the FLDS practices what the LDS preaches.

Lmao, all the LDS women I know may have a few things to say about that! Omg, alot of men would get the crap beaten out of them. What that yahoo speaks is so NOT true!

If the LDS faith is so supportive of polygamy then why is he afraid of reprisals of his own damned family? Could it be because he's talking out of his *ass?

golfmom
04-10-2008, 08:09 PM
Another interesting story regarding blood atonement is The Mountain Meadows Massacre. Crime Library link below. Now that I've given you all your reading assignments for the evening, I expect a five page summary by class tomorrow. lol.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html

This is absolutely a must read for anyone interested in the history of the Mormon religion.

txsvicki
04-10-2008, 08:13 PM
I hope the government is somehow able to take all of the property away in each of these states.

Leila
04-10-2008, 08:20 PM
I just heard that LE has a MOLE in the FLDS for the past 4 years, and this MOLE has steadily been feeding LE information! Wow!!

I think this is great! LE has mentioned an informant, and this may be the mole. I think it's likely that in addition to the mole, LE probably got info from those that left the sect in regards to what to look for and the usual practices and beliefs.

Truly
04-10-2008, 08:28 PM
Thank you SuziQ and Golfmom for the crimelibrary links. That is an extrordinarily well-written site.

Mormon Mafia is right! I wonder how much they are actually involved in activities usually connected to 'regular' mafia? DeputyDawg posted a link earlier to http://www.texasmonthly.com/2004-11-01/reporter.php , which said that David Allred, who came to Eldorado to purchase the property, 'said he was a builder in Utah, and that he needed a place to take his clients, many of whom were based in Las Vegas, for hunting trips...some townspeople speculated this man's Las Vegas clients were members of the Mafia." Hmmm...

golfmom
04-10-2008, 08:33 PM
It's part of the belief that you can LIE. This is from the testimony at Jeffs trial:

Barlow played a tape recording of Warren Jeffs telling the story of how a former prophet had lied to authorities to get out of prison. The prophet had said he would renounce polygamy, but, once out of jail, he continued the practice.

Jeffs preached that such deceit is acceptable if it is done to free oneself from enemies and continue to obey the "heavenly father."

Barlow then asked Steed if he would disobey the laws of man if the prophet requested him to do so.

"I would," Steed replied.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-10-04/news/persecution-complex/5

Leila
04-10-2008, 08:33 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3054653

(snip)

Utah's attorney general says he wasn't surprised by the beds in the temple that may have been used for sex with underage brides. But he tells KSL's "Doug Wright Show" it raises fear of what else may be, like blood atonement.
"Blood atonement meant if you apostatize, the only way you're gonna be redeemed is slit your throat from ear to ear. Now, they told them, ‘It's not been brought back yet, but it could be any minute.' People lived under that fear," Attorney General Mark Shurtleff explained. Shurtleff acknowledges people have disappeared before. He hopes the 16-year-old informant surfaces.

This is extremely scary, but I wouldn't be surprised if some who may have threatened to expose the crimes taking place, were killed.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 08:36 PM
AHA!!!! That is what I was saying in an ealier post that didn't go over too well. I'm so happy I've been vindicated. I said all along the Mormon church could have done something about this but they choose to look the other way. YES!

YES is right!

Trino
04-10-2008, 08:45 PM
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/Photos/rulonjeffs.htm

Surely, most of us have seen this photo of Rulon Jeffs (age 90) and his teen brides. This probably was taken about 1976, since he died in 1978. I recall seeing this photo somewhere way back when and thinking how odd it was. Pologamy was illegal then. Why wasn't something done when this photo was taken?

The Mormon Church believes that although pologamy is not permitted on Earth, it will exist in Heaven for all Mormons.

Four years seems like an awfully long time to conduct an investigation and get enough evidence for arrests. If Texas took four years, how long will it take Utah and Arizona? I'm betting South Dakota won't tolerate this behavior for long.

adnoid
04-10-2008, 08:52 PM
...I wonder if 57 was the total number of FLDS men?...

While those 57 may present a 46,XY karyotype I would not refer to them as "men". Real men do not abuse women and children.

Leila
04-10-2008, 08:53 PM
AHA!!!! That is what I was saying in an ealier post that didn't go over too well. I'm so happy I've been vindicated. I said all along the Mormon church could have done something about this but they choose to look the other way. YES!

If the mainstream LDS sympathizes with the FLDS and refuses to do anything about them, then the only recourse is going to be another LE agency to do what Texas did. We can't tolerate a group of people committed to sexual abuse of children, physical abuse of women and children, and imprisonment under the guise of religion.

barb0301
04-10-2008, 08:55 PM
Four years seems like an awfully long time to conduct an investigation and get enough evidence for arrests. If Texas took four years, how long will it take Utah and Arizona? I'm betting South Dakota won't tolerate this behavior for long.

It took 4 years for Texas because the FLDS lives in a totally secluded *compound* outside of a very small, isolated town. They have armed guards at the compound, and noone can enter or leave without permission. When LE would visit with them, they were only allowed to talk to the leaders and all others would hide inside. Although they had "suspicions" that underage girls were being married off and having children, they had no proof. Noone ever saw or talked to one.

It wasn't until the call came in from a supposed pregnant 16 year old that they felt they had reasonable cause to obtain search warrants.

The FLDS has only been in TX for 4 years. They've been in Utah and Arizona for decades !! And they don't live in the absolute, complete isolation that they do here in TX.

Leila
04-10-2008, 08:56 PM
Another interesting story regarding blood atonement is The Mountain Meadows Massacre. Crime Library link below. Now that I've given you all your reading assignments for the evening, I expect a five page summary by class tomorrow. lol.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html

There was a movie made about the Mountain Meadows Massacre recently. I remember seeing it as a new release at our local video store in the last couple of months.

DEPUTYDAWG
04-10-2008, 08:58 PM
Thank you SuziQ and Golfmom for the crimelibrary links. That is an extrordinarily well-written site.

Mormon Mafia is right! I wonder how much they are actually involved in activities usually connected to 'regular' mafia? DeputyDawg posted a link earlier to http://www.texasmonthly.com/2004-11-01/reporter.php , which said that David Allred, who came to Eldorado to purchase the property, 'said he was a builder in Utah, and that he needed a place to take his clients, many of whom were based in Las Vegas, for hunting trips...some townspeople speculated this man's Las Vegas clients were members of the Mafia." Hmmm...

Mormon Mafia is such a good term, IMO!

Thanks for posting that link again. It's so interesting to read that article again, over 3 years later. That article sparked a lot of interest in their property, but it continued to be elusive to locals AND LE...Between about that time and the time of Jeffs' arrest...local LE was hoping/looking for Jeffs to step foot on non-private property and commit some crime, any crime! He was a sneaky guy, sending in his men to TX, rather than showing up in El Dorado himself, very often. He knew he was wanted :bang: I really had hoped LE would get the break they needed shortly after Jeffs was arrested, but it didn't happen. IMO, LE knew what they were doing and have waited until they had concrete cause to go in. They knew there was a lot at stake.

I know a DPS employee that's up there right now (or at least he was until yesterday) at the command post. I'm anxious to hear what he has to say when he returns.

i.b.nora
04-10-2008, 09:04 PM
Larry King is talking about this case right now.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 09:08 PM
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/Photos/rulonjeffs.htm

Surely, most of us have seen this photo of Rulon Jeffs (age 90) and his teen brides. This probably was taken about 1976, since he died in 1978. I recall seeing this photo somewhere way back when and thinking how odd it was. Pologamy was illegal then. Why wasn't something done when this photo was taken?

The Mormon Church believes that although pologamy is not permitted on Earth, it will exist in Heaven for all Mormons.

Four years seems like an awfully long time to conduct an investigation and get enough evidence for arrests. If Texas took four years, how long will it take Utah and Arizona? I'm betting South Dakota won't tolerate this behavior for long.

I just spoke to my neighborhood LDS Bishop and according to him that is not true. That is a belief of fundamentalists. If an lds member practices polygamy they will ecommunicated by the members now and when they die and are called upon by the churches heavenly father. They are judged by only him and will not be able to sit with him in the celestial kingdom.

In premarital classes it is taught that infidelity is wrong.Polygamy is infidelity and the consequences are what is stated above.

I asked about the statement from the 50 year old bishop in Arizona, regarding LDS members hoping that polygamy will return. He laughed and said that alot of men in the world, whether they are lds or not hope for that.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 09:10 PM
Also, the Bishop addressed the issue that the LDS church is viewed as not taking action towards fundmentalism. He said, what are we supposed to do? We aren't law enforcement. We can only teach our members that it wrong.

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:21 PM
There was a movie made about the Mountain Meadows Massacre recently. I remember seeing it as a new release at our local video store in the last couple of months.

Wow, I didn't realize that. If anyone knows the name of the movie, I'd be interested.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 09:25 PM
SuziQ I would be interested in knowing from a practicing LDS:
If God told Joseph Smith to take plural wives, and many years later told Wilford Woodruff to stop practicing polygamy, doesn't that mean that God changed his mind? If God is infallable and all knowing, then how could he change his mind about such an important doctrine?

golfmom
04-10-2008, 09:28 PM
LOL, I can't tell you HOW many cases those kind of questions come up Pepper. We have MANY members of websleuths that are LDS. It's best to tread with care and with TOS in mind.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 09:40 PM
SuziQ I would be interested in knowing from a practicing LDS:
If God told Joseph Smith to take plural wives, and many years later told Wilford Woodruff to stop practicing polygamy, doesn't that mean that God changed his mind? If God is infallable and all knowing, then how could he change his mind about such an important doctrine?

That is exactly the argument that FLDS members make for their reasons for practicing polygamy. I am not a practicing mormon. I can only draw information from Elders of the church that live on either side of me and the Bishop that lives around the corner.

I will probably have to make another phone call to clarify this. But my understanding is that the LDS church believes that many of Gods messages are left up to interpretation by those on earth and that God didn't change his mind but he may have been misinterpreted. lol. That actually always gives me a chuckle.

Whatever the reason, it's 2008 and you won't fare very well in the afterlife for even so much as coveting the idea of polygamy.

Leila
04-10-2008, 09:47 PM
The name of the movie about the Mountain Meadow Massacre is, "September Dawn", released in August of 2006, and starring Jon Voight. Here's a link to the movie website:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473700/

The movie should be available at most video stores.

Editing to add the plot synopsis: A story set against the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the film is based upon the tragedy which occurred in Utah in 1857. A group of settlers, traveling on wagons, was murdered by the native Mormons. All together, about 140 souls of men, women and children, were taken. Amidst this, two young lovers-to-be, one a Mormon and the other one of the doomed settlers from Arkansas, develop a relationship in an atmosphere of suspicion and rancor.

Pepper
04-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Thanks SuziQ. No offence intended, I was just looking for clarification or an explanation. :blowkiss:

Trino
04-10-2008, 09:51 PM
I just spoke to my neighborhood LDS Bishop and according to him that is not true. That is a belief of fundamentalists. If an lds member practices polygamy they will ecommunicated by the members now and when they die and are called upon by the churches heavenly father. They are judged by only him and will not be able to sit with him in the celestial kingdom.

In premarital classes it is taught that infidelity is wrong.Polygamy is infidelity and the consequences are what is stated above.

I asked about the statement from the 50 year old bishop in Arizona, regarding LDS members hoping that polygamy will return. He laughed and said that alot of men in the world, whether they are lds or not hope for that.

This is from Newsweek Sept. 3, 2007:

http://www.marriagedebate.com/2007/08/mormons-is-polygamy-in-afterlife-ok.htm
Much less clear is the church's position on polygamy in the eternal hereafter. When a Mormon man and woman are married in the Temple, they are "sealed," which means they and their children will be bound together forever in heaven—what Mormons call the celestial kingdom. If a Mormon man becomes a widower, or if he is divorced, he can remarry in the Temple—and thus be sealed to more than one woman. (Mormon women, on the other hand, need to have their previous sealings canceled before they can be sealed again.) Doesn't this mean, in effect, that men can have multiple wives in heaven? LDS Church officials decline to answer specifically, saying only that "the Lord has not given answers to all the details of life after death. There are some things we simply don't know."

All this may seem an obscure theological question, but in an age of divorce and mixed families, it's a matter of great concern, especially to Mormon women. On the Web site feministmormonhousewives.org, women worry over celestial polygamy in all its permutations, and the topic was also on the agenda at a symposium of Mormons last month in Salt Lake City.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Wow 4 years? That is a long time to mole around and let these girls be raped and impregnated by old men and beat etc etc..I guess they needed alot of evidence to really really make this whole thing worth it though. I hope they get the book thrown at them! I wonder if there ever was a ''Sarah'' who made a phone call? :confused:


Yes there is a sarah. I have been in contact with someone close to the investigation, preparing myself to "deploy" down to texas. There is definitly a 'Sarah'....

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 10:04 PM
This is from Newsweek Sept. 3, 2007:

http://www.marriagedebate.com/2007/08/mormons-is-polygamy-in-afterlife-ok.htm
Much less clear is the church's position on polygamy in the eternal hereafter. When a Mormon man and woman are married in the Temple, they are "sealed," which means they and their children will be bound together forever in heaven—what Mormons call the celestial kingdom. If a Mormon man becomes a widower, or if he is divorced, he can remarry in the Temple—and thus be sealed to more than one woman. (Mormon women, on the other hand, need to have their previous sealings canceled before they can be sealed again.) Doesn't this mean, in effect, that men can have multiple wives in heaven? LDS Church officials decline to answer specifically, saying only that "the Lord has not given answers to all the details of life after death. There are some things we simply don't know."

All this may seem an obscure theological question, but in an age of divorce and mixed families, it's a matter of great concern, especially to Mormon women. On the Web site feministmormonhousewives.org, women worry over celestial polygamy in all its permutations, and the topic was also on the agenda at a symposium of Mormons last month in Salt Lake City.

This is a concern for many religions, the vision of God scratching his head and shuffling papers trying to sort it all out is funny. None of us know what will happen in the afterlife. But LDS people can only be sealed to one person person at a time, so I don't know how someone would have more than one wife in heaven.

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 10:14 PM
Thanks SuziQ. No offence intended, I was just looking for clarification or an explanation. :blowkiss:

No problem! I didn't find anyone's posts offensive. In fact I had questions too which is why I made the call to the Bishop. I still chuckle over God being misinterpreted though. I need to also calarify I am not LDS and there are alot about the church I don't view favorably. However, my daughter is one. I love her, my wonderful neighbors and friends. And I'll confess to doing something I do in secret...I contribute a fast offering once a month to the LDS church. Shhhhhh, it's our secret ok? lol.

Leila
04-10-2008, 10:15 PM
Yes there is a sarah. I have been in contact with someone close to the investigation, preparing myself to "deploy" down to texas. There is definitly a 'Sarah'....

Thanks Ladybass............best wishes to you on your journey and I hope you will be able to help those girls.

I think that by the time all the evidence is collected, some time down the road, there will be a lot of Sarahs.

Leila
04-10-2008, 10:26 PM
No problem! I didn't find anyone's posts offensive. In fact I had questions too which is why I made the call to the Bishop. I still chuckle over God being misinterpreted though. I need to also calarify I am not LDS and there are alot about the church I don't view favorably. However, my daughter is one. I love her, my wonderful neighbors and friends. And I'll confess to doing something I do in secret...I contribute a fast offering once a month to the LDS church. Shhhhhh, it's our secret ok? lol.

Suzy.............I won't tell.......cross my heart! :)

SuziQ
04-10-2008, 10:35 PM
Suzy.............I won't tell.......cross my heart! :)

lol, I can be very anti LDS at times, and if people that know me knew that I contributed to the LDS faith they would point at me and say..."Aha!" The local ward will sneak on over and shovel my walks or leave goodies on my front porch and always include my son in their activities. They even paid for him to join the Boy Scouts. So I felt the right thing would be to contribute to the neighborhood support fund which is what fast offering donations go to.

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 11:08 PM
lol, I can be very anti LDS at times, and if people that know me knew that I contributed to the LDS faith they would point at me and say..."Aha!" The local ward will sneak on over and shovel my walks or leave goodies on my front porch and always include my son in their activities. They even paid for him to join the Boy Scouts. So I felt the right thing would be to contribute to the neighborhood support fund which is what fast offering donations go to.

SuziQ - hope you are feeling better today. You should not be concerned about supporting the LDS church - it seems it's a 2 way street for you. And living in UT - it's probably much easier. Many facets of Mormonism are quite wonderful - family oriented and very loyal (to one another!). Every orgnanized religion interprets the Bible to suit their own desires. The Mormons went one further in adding the Book of Mormon. Pedophilia is nothing new, although we hear more about it in this day and age. Common sense will tell you that an edict to have as many wives (and children) as possible benefits only the male. There have been many times in my life as a wife and mother when I wished for a "sister wife." But only to help with the babies and the housework - not to have sex with MY husband!!! SuziQ - you will be saved by the cigs and coffee (which may make you my "sister wife" anyway!). But if you can get your sidewalk shoveled and your baby in Boy Scouts, more power to ya!

Fairy1
04-10-2008, 11:11 PM
YES is right!

You are both right! As I posted last night, the teachings are the same for both LDS and FLDS. For the LDS to denounce polygamy is to publicly force them to pick and choose their tenets. Not a great precedent - in this context anyway.

SeriouslySearching
04-11-2008, 12:06 AM
They just said on LKL that the Barlow fellow is in Colorado City, CO.

cheko1
04-11-2008, 12:13 AM
Yes there is a sarah. I have been in contact with someone close to the investigation, preparing myself to "deploy" down to texas. There is definitly a 'Sarah'....


Good luck Ladybass! I wish you the best......
Thats a hard road for you to go down again. So
take extra good care of yourself!!!

I can't imagine what your going to walk into.
There will be more Sarah's than anyone could imagine.

Try to keep in touch with us!

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 12:46 AM
Fairy, thank you. I am feeling really good now and hopefully this nightmare is over.

Over the years I've had my run ins with what I call zealots. But for the most part everyone around me has been so dang nice. I just felt like I wanted to support the neighborhood in some way.

Fairy1
04-11-2008, 01:04 AM
Fairy, thank you. I am feeling really good now and hopefully this nightmare is over.

Over the years I've had my run ins with what I call zealots. But for the most part everyone around me has been so dang nice. I just felt like I wanted to support the neighborhood in some way.

Nothing wrong with that! I have TONS of Mormons in my neighborhood (living close to the temple), but no snow and my son is too old for Boy Scouts now! It's very difficult to discuss this case without looking at the religious aspect of it. However, I feel that the FLDS has hidden behind religion all this time and that is not ok. It is what it is, and what they've been doing in Eldorado, Hildale and Colorado City is not ok - no matter how they spin it.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 01:28 AM
I can't imagine the sick mind it takes to come up with the crap they did.

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=37d94e38-93bc-460e-94d2-11e8eab50433

A source tells ABC 4 News that under Warren Jeffs, the FLDS had made "sex a temple ordinance."

FlowerChild
04-11-2008, 01:59 AM
If there are 57 "men" and you know each is 18 or older - and assuming each is allowed to marry (which, BTW, men under 35 are not usually permitted to do) - that would mean that with 416 children (under age 18) - each of the 57 adult men has at minimum, 7 children (avg'd).

it's just SICK because of the 57 men at the compound, probably only 40 (or fewer) are allowed to marry and since the "sister wives"must also come from the FLDS church eventually there are going to be some pretty closely related people having children. I mean do they really get all that many new members from the LDS faith that join up? If no new members are "recruited", the gene pool is going to get pretty limited within a few generations - especially considering that girls are married off at puberty and some have 4 children by age 16. Think about it, say there are 40 "husbands" available and each man has 5-7 wives (and since the keep adding younger wives, there is no natural cessation of fertility because of the age of the mother) and no birth control so one man can easily father as many as 40 or 50 children in his lifetime. 50 children who are all siblings or half siblings. Those female children turn around and marry another of the 40 available husbands who are BTW, ALL brothers or sons of other FLDS members. How long will it take before every child born in even a LARGE group is inbred?

And isn't it interesting that the FLDS church regularly culls out most male children by age 18 because they cannot be allowed to "compete" with the elder male members for wives. It seems that in THEIR religion ALL female children are "kept" in the faith, but male children are "disposable". They condone excommunicating males (for no real reason) but never females. And amazingly, males are considered far too YOUNG to marry at 18, but females are married at puberty. Girls and Women must literally ESCAPE the church but Young Men and Boys are freely thrown out and all contact with them forbidden. To their mothers and sisters and brothers, these boys/men are literally gone forever.

IMO, the FLDS Church is merely a safe, sanctioned, cloaked in religion and protected by "religious freedom" haven for men who are trained from birth to be pedophiles, abusers and harem masters. What part of this isn't ABUSIVE AND CRIMINAL....and that's just for starters?????

I sympathize with CPS and LE because they are basically dealing with 416 kids who are brainwashed and believe we are all infidels out to destroy them. Many of those in custody refuse to identify their mothers/fathers/husbands and some of the women won't even publicly claim their own CHILDREN because they know they are underage and believe the authorities will TAKE their children from them if they acknowledge being their mothers....so they lie and say the children belong to another sister-wife who is over 18. DNA is the ONLY way to ID for sure the parents of each child - and obviously SOME fathers are in Colorado City or another FLDS compound where DNA cannot be compelled. I am sure ANY man who is connected the this property who was elsewhere when the raid happened is already in Mexico or Canada - vanished like magic. Oh well, he can always get a new batch of 12 year-old wives at the NEW compound.

Ughhh It's making me nauseous and I think my head may explode with all the sickness I have crammed into it on this situation already. When you really start to figure out the whole sordid story it soon becomes apparent that INCEST is a huge possibility.

My Opinion

Leila
04-11-2008, 03:51 AM
If there are 57 "men" and you know each is 18 or older - and assuming each is allowed to marry (which, BTW, men under 35 are not usually permitted to do) - that would mean that with 416 children (under age 18) - each of the 57 adult men has at minimum, 7 children (avg'd).

it's just SICK because of the 57 men at the compound, probably only 40 (or fewer) are allowed to marry and since the "sister wives"must also come from the FLDS church eventually there are going to be some pretty closely related people having children. I mean do they really get all that many new members from the LDS faith that join up? If no new members are "recruited", the gene pool is going to get pretty limited within a few generations - especially considering that girls are married off at puberty and some have 4 children by age 16. Think about it, say there are 40 "husbands" available and each man has 5-7 wives (and since the keep adding younger wives, there is no natural cessation of fertility because of the age of the mother) and no birth control so one man can easily father as many as 40 or 50 children in his lifetime. 50 children who are all siblings or half siblings. Those female children turn around and marry another of the 40 available husbands who are BTW, ALL brothers or sons of other FLDS members. How long will it take before every child born in even a LARGE group is inbred?

And isn't it interesting that the FLDS church regularly culls out most male children by age 18 because they cannot be allowed to "compete" with the elder male members for wives. It seems that in THEIR religion ALL female children are "kept" in the faith, but male children are "disposable". They condone excommunicating males (for no real reason) but never females. And amazingly, males are considered far too YOUNG to marry at 18, but females are married at puberty. Girls and Women must literally ESCAPE the church but Young Men and Boys are freely thrown out and all contact with them forbidden. To their mothers and sisters and brothers, these boys/men are literally gone forever.

IMO, the FLDS Church is merely a safe, sanctioned, cloaked in religion and protected by "religious freedom" haven for men who are trained from birth to be pedophiles, abusers and harem masters. What part of this isn't ABUSIVE AND CRIMINAL....and that's just for starters?????

I sympathize with CPS and LE because they are basically dealing with 416 kids who are brainwashed and believe we are all infidels out to destroy them. Many of those in custody refuse to identify their mothers/fathers/husbands and some of the women won't even publicly claim their own CHILDREN because they know they are underage and believe the authorities will TAKE their children from them if they acknowledge being their mothers....so they lie and say the children belong to another sister-wife who is over 18. DNA is the ONLY way to ID for sure the parents of each child - and obviously SOME fathers are in Colorado City or another FLDS compound where DNA cannot be compelled. I am sure ANY man who is connected the this property who was elsewhere when the raid happened is already in Mexico or Canada - vanished like magic. Oh well, he can always get a new batch of 12 year-old wives at the NEW compound.

Ughhh It's making me nauseous and I think my head may explode with all the sickness I have crammed into it on this situation already. When you really start to figure out the whole sordid story it soon becomes apparent that INCEST is a huge possibility.

My Opinion

The FLDS has existed as a separate sect from the LDS since 1890, which is equal to about 7 generations in the FLDS considering the young age of the generations, and the inbreeding has resulted in birth defects. Incest has been reported by a few of the girls/women who escaped the FLDS.

In regards to recruitment, there really is no recruitment into the sect. It's generational, with more people added to the sect through birth, and in higher birthrates as their numbers grow. In order to get "new blood", they trade families with other FLDS sects headed up by Warren Jeffs.

The children are trained from an early age to not trust outsiders. They're taught that outsiders are evil, so gaining their trust is going to take some time. The children are with their mothers - plural. In the polygamist sect, a man may have many wives all living under the same roof. When a child is born to one of them, that child is raised by all the wives/mothers. Many children don't know which one is their biological mother. It will take DNA to sort this all out, but it's going to be a nightmare because of all the inbreeding.

hoppyfrog
04-11-2008, 04:19 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/polygamist.ranch/index.html

11 April 08

Nearly 60 men surrounding the temple of a polygamist sect in Texas dropped to their knees, prayed and wept openly -- but never violently resisted -- as law enforcement officers raided the building they hold sacred.

more at link

(I'm sure they did cry: gonna be arrested and won't get to rape children anymore. Boohoo. Cry me a river. :furious: )

Trino
04-11-2008, 06:20 AM
According to authorities, the 139 women are free to go. Think outside the cult. While I understand the women have been brainwashed, what if a woman on the outside had stood by and allowed her child to be raped or beaten? She would have been charged. At the very least, a judge would have ordered this woman to undergo a mental health exam. Why, then, should these women be free to go? It appears to me that if released, they could very well head for Hillsdale or another compound.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 07:11 AM
According to authorities, the 139 women are free to go. Think outside the cult. While I understand the women have been brainwashed, what if a woman on the outside had stood by and allowed her child to be raped or beaten? She would have been charged. At the very least, a judge would have ordered this woman to undergo a mental health exam. Why, then, should these women be free to go? It appears to me that if released, they could very well head for Hillsdale or another compound.

Just as their mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers forced and beaten ... these woman have been trained since birth to accept and "stay sweet". If you weren't taught that incest was wrong, child molestation and rape wrong, or beating children was wrong ... How would you know that it was wrong when it was done to you? or to your children?

golfmom
04-11-2008, 07:21 AM
Some info regarding the Colorado location:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/11/officials-keep-eye-on-sect-land-near-mancos/

Montezuma County authorities are keeping an eye on property near Mancos owned by the same religious sect whose Texas compound was raided last week, but they have no reason to believe anything illegal is happening there, Sheriff Gerald Wallace said Thursday.

"There's not a lot of activity," Wallace said of the two parcels located deep in southwest Colorado's San Juan National Forest. "We have not even seen any women or children."

Members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought land - a 60-acre parcel and a 40-acre parcel - northwest of Mancos in 2003 and 2004.

At the time they told local authorities they were building a hunting retreat.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sherri79
04-11-2008, 08:05 AM
Just as their mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers forced and beaten ... these woman have been trained since birth to accept and "stay sweet". If you weren't taught that incest was wrong, child molestation and rape wrong, or beating children was wrong ... How would you know that it was wrong when it was done to you? or to your children? the same way the men would know not to rape a child?

sherri79
04-11-2008, 08:10 AM
According to authorities, the 139 women are free to go. Think outside the cult. While I understand the women have been brainwashed, what if a woman on the outside had stood by and allowed her child to be raped or beaten? She would have been charged. At the very least, a judge would have ordered this woman to undergo a mental health exam. Why, then, should these women be free to go? It appears to me that if released, they could very well head for Hillsdale or another compound. i think the mothers share some responsibility. i do not want prison time but probation where they can be legally forced to take classes on parenting and be monitored. they should be free to go at this point. no man or woman has been arrested for the crimes against these children yet. until the investigation is complete failure to allow the mothers to leave if they wish would risk any legal case.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 08:16 AM
Right now, Texas authorities have admitted that they're having a real tough time sorting out who's who. Children won't identify their parents and there seems to be reason to believe a number of the children were living at the "ranch" without parents. What a mess.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 09:07 AM
In order to answer some questions regarding the LDS church and polygamy I did some late night searching and came up with the below linked info.

LDS Church finds need to reiterate that it does not practice polygamy
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3053045

LDS Church on the Texas Polygamy investigation, short video clip included:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/polygamy-investigation

Polygamy: Questions and Answers With the Los Angeles Times
http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/polygamy-questions-and-answers-with-the-los-angeles-times

LDS church on careless media misrepresentation:
http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/mormons-and-polygamy

CNN (“Sect Leader Is Hunted,” 9 May 2006) — During a report about law enforcement’s crackdown and hunt for Warren Jeffs, leader of a polygamist group, CNN superimposed the face of Jeffs over an image of the Salt Lake Temple. Again, this implies a connection between the two. This is not just careless editing, but highly offensive to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Warren Jeffs is not and never has been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

On Confusing LSD and FLDS
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/04/10/mormons-have-fundamental-pr-problem/
The Mormon faith — or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/)as it is officially called — has a “fundamental” PR problem.
It may have renounced polygamy over a century ago but the breakaway sects which continue to practice plural marriage are the ones that often catch the public eye, leading to the popular misconception that all Mormon men have, or strive to have, more than one (often underage) wife.

Pepper
04-11-2008, 09:08 AM
i think the mothers share some responsibility. i do not want prison time but probation where they can be legally forced to take classes on parenting and be monitored. they should be free to go at this point. no man or woman has been arrested for the crimes against these children yet. until the investigation is complete failure to allow the mothers to leave if they wish would risk any legal case.
I think the adult mothers are free to leave, but they are choosing to stay with their children.

Sally
04-11-2008, 09:23 AM
i think the mothers share some responsibility. i do not want prison time but probation where they can be legally forced to take classes on parenting and be monitored. they should be free to go at this point. no man or woman has been arrested for the crimes against these children yet. until the investigation is complete failure to allow the mothers to leave if they wish would risk any legal case.

I do too. The women and men are complicit in this sickness and both should suffer the consequences.
Actually I blame the women more. Brainwashing, years of tradition whatever; not working for me as an excuse. Females in the frikking animal kingdom instinctively protect their offspring.

These women offer up their children for abuse.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 09:41 AM
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269233,00.html

In a statement issued by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of Texas, the FBI's Dallas office said the federal search warrant was executed at the Eldorado compound on Tuesday.

"The application and affidavit in support of the search warrant are sealed and will remain sealed; no further comment will be made as this is a pending investigation," U.S. Attorney Richard Roper said in a statement released this afternoon.

Trino
04-11-2008, 09:41 AM
I think the women who leave will not be adaptable to society but return to the same lifestyle.

It seems crazy to think the followers at Hillsdale and other compounds are not breaking the law. The main reason they formed their own society was to have multiple wives. The last I heard this is illegal.

Someone needs to step up in other locations.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 10:07 AM
I think the women who leave will not be adaptable to society but return to the same lifestyle.

It seems crazy to think the followers at Hillsdale and other compounds are not breaking the law. The main reason they formed their own society was to have multiple wives. The last I heard this is illegal.

Someone needs to step up in other locations.

And maybe take their kids back with them. That can't be allowed to happen, IMO.

I'm feeling a bit miffed these days about how Utah and AZ view the problem as not solvable.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:13 AM
And maybe take their kids back with them. That can't be allowed to happen, IMO.

I'm feeling a bit miffed these days about how Utah and AZ view the problem as not solvable.

I was surprised to see that polygamy is against the law, but there are virtually no consequences to breaking that law. I can see why LE is like ... why bother arresting anyone for polygamy? It makes more sense to me now as to why they only target child abuse cases.

barb0301
04-11-2008, 10:21 AM
At the time they told local authorities they were building a hunting retreat.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's the same thing they told TX authorities they were doing. Turned into a hunting ground for child rape victims.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Bill Ekstrom is a Mohave County Attorney in AZ.

http://www.childbrides.org/excuses_AP_felony_not_prosecuted_in_AZ.html

Ekstrom says public opinion has nothing to do with his decision not to prosecute. He says one problem with trying to win a prosecution is that while the state Constitution bars polygamy, state statues do not. It's the same situation in Utah.

curious1
04-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Oh yeah, go about your business (child sex abuse, etc) because we ain't gonna do anything about it. WTF????? Maybe if they thought someone was coming after them they might actually obey the law! A Quote from the below link:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3050398


The raid of a polygamous ranch in Texas is making polygamous communities in Utah so nervous, they need reassuring. Enter Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith.
"I just want them to know this isn't going to be a concerted effort on the part of all law enforcement to sweep through every polygamous community," he said. He says he told Hildale's mayor it's business as usual for now.

Okay that just burns my butt!!! :furious: Why won't there be a concerted effort?!?!?

Some were wondering why they have been able to get away with this for so long in these states and here is my opinon (bear with me it sounds a bit like a consipiracy, which I usually don't believe in).....I think it is because they have systematically insured they have either secret FLDS members or at the very least sympathizers in high places. If someone were to do a search of gov't officials in Utah they would proably find that starting with local LE all the way up to state gov't there are of course those who identify themselves as LDS, but are really FLDS in disguise. So who is going to go after them when they have infiltrated all aspects of gov't some completely. Ugh! Maybe I have let my imagination get the best of me. :confused:

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Curious1, your theory is not the work of an active imagination. In fact, this is very true in many aspects of polygamy in Utah. Especially in the Kingston Clan. They send the boys to law school. They have a huge financial empire. It's hard to drive down the street here and not see their businesses. They own a worldwide trash collection company for starters. Waste Management got caught up in the Mafia contract scandal in NYC a few years back. Gives the term "Mormon Mafia" an interesting meaning. Their financial empire is so huge no one can accurately calculate how much the Kingston Clan is worth. So while polygamists may not openly hold office on the State level. I'm sure they contribute to the right candidates running for office.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 10:42 AM
Oh Suzi, you so nailed it ... it all comes down to where the money flows ...

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 10:50 AM
Something else that I've been thinking about. I wonder if the quick downfall of the FLDS in Texas is the result of not having their people in the right places in comparison to Utah and Arizona where they were Judges and Law enforcement, etc.

mysteriew
04-11-2008, 10:57 AM
i think the mothers share some responsibility. i do not want prison time but probation where they can be legally forced to take classes on parenting and be monitored. they should be free to go at this point. no man or woman has been arrested for the crimes against these children yet. until the investigation is complete failure to allow the mothers to leave if they wish would risk any legal case.

In a way, I agree with you. I understand about born and raised this way and believing it was right combined with being totally powerless in the situation made them unable to stop what was happening.

But if they are released there is a good possibility that some or even most will return to the compound. If they have their children, the children will go with them. And if they are not accused of any crime, it will be difficult for authorities to have reason to monitor them. And most likely if CPS was monitoring them, CPS won't go back to the compound unless they get another complaint. Those who return will just begin having more babies.

I also believe they are going to need education- more education than most parenting classes. Because whether they stay out or return, they could easily fall prey to any sexual predator and the same thing will happen outside. CPS maybe order that as part of a parenting plan, but it would be more effective if ordered by the court.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 11:11 AM
Something else that I've been thinking about. I wonder if the quick downfall of the FLDS in Texas is the result of not having their people in the right places in comparison to Utah and Arizona where they were Judges and Law enforcement, etc.

This is where I think the downfall came: I think they set up house in Texas because girls were allowed to be married under the age of 16 yo, WITH THEIR PARENTS PERMISSION. They didn't have to Yearn for Zion, this was their Zion! Then some bright representative caught on and got the law changed. By that time, they were way too deep financially into building their community and couldn't back out.

mysteriew
04-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Something else that I've been thinking about. I wonder if the quick downfall of the FLDS in Texas is the result of not having their people in the right places in comparison to Utah and Arizona where they were Judges and Law enforcement, etc.

It might also be interesting to find out who is making contributions to political campaigns and how much. :twocents: talks.

curious1
04-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Wonder why 'ole Mitt hasn't come out to speak against this and to make sure everyone knows this is not affiliated with the LDS?

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 11:25 AM
Truth be told, there has always been a battle to keep church and state seperate in the state of Utah. I am aware though that this is also a problem in the bible belt.

Vegas Bride
04-11-2008, 11:37 AM
Wonder why 'ole Mitt hasn't come out to speak against this and to make sure everyone knows this is not affiliated with the LDS?

Good question curious1, I'm just sickened by this and wonder why many in power are not speaking out about all the abuse. Forget for a moment that this has anything to do with polygamy, forget that it has anything to do with someones religion, lets focus on the fact this is about babies, children and very young girls being abused. Why should that in any way be accepted? Where is a powerful voice when we need them? I haven't heard President Bush say anything about it either, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Here in Utah the Mormons are in power because they are the majority of the population, I'm hoping that 1 day there will be enough other people here that things can be changed. Certain towns are well known to be polygamist towns and the authorities don't do anything about it because they see that they have the right people in power. Utah needs a very bright light shined on it and we need new people here to help clean up this mess!

VB

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Colorado City CPS phone call resembles one made in Texas

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/11/20080411cps0411.html

curious1
04-11-2008, 11:41 AM
Truth be told, there has always been a battle to keep church and state seperate in the state of Utah. I am aware though that this is also a problem in the bible belt.

I was raised in and live in the Bible Belt do not even get me started. They just assume down here that everyone is 'Christian' and they try to shove it down your throat at every single turn. Heck in Charlotte most of our schools rent out or loan out their large multi-use rooms to churches on sunday. Don't even get me started on that one.

trixie
04-11-2008, 11:43 AM
Is it still polygamy if one is not legally married to more than one woman? I thought all these unions were within the FLDS church, not unions with legal paperwork filed down at the courthouse like us. So if that is so, there is nothing illegal about living with more than one woman and calling them all your wife. It would only be illegal if that wife were under 18 and having sex with her "husband" at which time then it actually turns in to child rape. I can surely see why the authorities would have a problem prosecuting these adult poeople who choose to live this way. Back in the 60's they called them" communes." Same thing until you cross the line with an underage girl. I would like to know where they are getting their millions of dollars. I thought the women got welfare becaue they are technically single mothers?

Vegas Bride
04-11-2008, 11:50 AM
Yes they get welfare to support the families, I believe the term they call it is "bleeding the beast"

VB

LinasK
04-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Wonder why 'ole Mitt hasn't come out to speak against this and to make sure everyone knows this is not affiliated with the LDS?

You know... I had the very same thought last night.

Sally
04-11-2008, 12:44 PM
Wonder why 'ole Mitt hasn't come out to speak against this and to make sure everyone knows this is not affiliated with the LDS?
I don't really think he's under any obligation to speak out about it. He doesn't hold a public office and is no longer running for one. As far as I know he's not an official of the Mormon church, which is not involved in this anyway.
So.. why would he?

trixie
04-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Wonder why 'ole Mitt hasn't come out to speak against this and to make sure everyone knows this is not affiliated with the LDS?

Why should Romney have to come out and speak on behalf of the Mormon church? He's not the most famous Mormon alive and he's not running for office anymore so he doesn't have to answer any questions or make any statement. Why doesn't Donny and Marie Osmond come out and make a statement? You know why? It's the Mormon Church's dirty little secret and the quicker all this ugliness and goes away the better. I think by now absolutely everybody knows this is not the Mormon church, it's a poligamist church. Every broadcast I watch has that disclaimer. It's been covered. But I'm still saying , and this is what mkes me mad, that the LDS could do something about this and yet they look away. That church is just too wealthy and too powerful to not have any influence. And what that Bishop friend of SuziQ's said is just a cop out and the excuse they've made for too many years. It sounds like a typical canned answer when asked about the subject. You want to know who's who in the zoo? Follow the money. The LDS church has EONS more money than the FLDS. They should be ashamed. curiuos1 i didn't mean to get off an a rant. It has nothing to do wth you. Sorry.:doh:

Hopeful One
04-11-2008, 12:54 PM
Is it still polygamy if one is not legally married to more than one woman?

Someone on here said bigamy is being legally married to more than one woman and polygamy is just having the spiritual marriages to more than one woman. I'm not sure if that's true though.

LinasK
04-11-2008, 12:56 PM
Why should Romney have to come out and speak on behalf of the Mormon church? He's not the most famous Mormon alive and he's not running for office anymore so he doesn't have to answer any questions or make any statement. Why doesn't Donny and Marie Osmond come out and make a statement? You know why? It's the Mormon Church's dirty little secret and the quicker all this ugliness and goes away the better. I think by now absolutely everybody knows this is not the Mormon church, it's a poligamist church. Every broadcast I watch has that disclaimer. It's been covered. But I'm still saying , and this is what mkes me mad, that the LDS could do something about this and yet they look away. That church is just too wealthy and too powerful to not have any influence. And what that Bishop friend of SuziQ's said is just a cop out and the excuse they've made for too many years. It sounds like a typical canned answer when asked about the subject. You want to know who's who in the zoo? Follow the money. The LDS church has EONS more money than the FLDS. They should be ashamed. curiuos1 i didn't mean to get off an a rant. It has nothing to do wth you. Sorry.:doh:

Because Mitt and/or the Osmonds coming out against the FLDS practices would go a long way to soothe the anger people are going to feel against Mormons in general for at least tacitly supporting these practices.

curious1
04-11-2008, 12:58 PM
Because Mitt and/or the Osmonds coming out against the FLDS practices would go a long way to soothe the anger people are going to feel against Mormons in general for at least tacitly supporting these practices.

Yep, ya bet me to it. I was at lunch. Thanks for taking my dictation. ;)

I think I can understand why maybe the well known LDS are not saying anything. I think they know it won't make a difference what they say.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Because Mitt and/or the Osmonds coming out against the FLDS practices would go a long way to soothe the anger people are going to feel against Mormons in general for at least tacitly supporting these practices.

Very good point. And the Osmonds are all over the place these days and all these years later are quite succesful. Unlike the Jacksons......

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 01:04 PM
Trixie, we'll have to agree to disagree. And that's ok too.

sherri79
04-11-2008, 01:15 PM
boy i am sure glad every time Phelps speaks we baptist do not have to come out and wave a big flag with a "yo! we are not all insane" banner.

Sally
04-11-2008, 01:18 PM
boy i am sure glad every time Phelps speaks we baptist do not have to come out and wave a big flag with a "yo! we are not all insane" banner.

Excellent point Sherri.

Niner
04-11-2008, 01:21 PM
okay... I admit I haven't read the last few pages on this thread - but wanted to comment on the article in CNN - quote a portion:
In addition to the children, 139 adult women have voluntarily gone to the shelters. Meisner said the women are not in state custody and are free to leave at any time, although as of Wednesday afternoon none had.

my comment - WHERE are these women supposed to go to?? Like they have money?? a place to stay??? They probably have NO where TO go to... I hope they don't decide to go back to that compound!!

RainbowsAndGumdrops
04-11-2008, 01:22 PM
Ok, I have to jump in here. What do you want the LDS church to say? That we cannot condone the actions of those people? That has been said for over a hundred years. Why does the LDS church have to say that now. You can go to their website at LDS.org and listen to and read what the LDS church teaches and what they have to say. The LDS church has sent missionaries to those areas for who knows how long to teach the LDS principles to people that want out and also to help stop the cycle of abuse. They have done as much as they can to reach out to the people that want help. My brother was there for 2 years helping those people. I don't think any of you can say that. How can you say that the mormon church secretly supports this abuse when they are the only ones that I know of actively going out there to help stop the abuse.

It seems like my whole life i have heard about these problems. I have seen TV shows with Doctors talking about the incest related birth defects and diseases. I have heard cases about the child abuse, the marrying and raping of young children, the boys being raped and molested and being made to watch and participate. Take religion out of this. The mormon church is not to blame for this at all.

The issues that I think everyone is frustrated about is that nothing seems to be happening to solve this problem and the cycle continues even though the problems are widely known. The question is why. The reason is the same that we see child abusers, sex offenders, and murderers getting away with crimes everyday. People are assumed innocent until proven guilty. Often, without someone complaining, the police are bound and can do nothing - even when they know something is wrong. If the police act prematurely, the evidence can be thrown out for being obtained inappropriately. The perps cannot be tried for the same crime twice. And the police and state will be sued. The perps actually win if the police go in to early. The police finally thought they had a chance to go in, and they went in strong and fast. Obviously, there was already a plan in place to help these people.

The propblem is that the people that want to stop this are seemingly powerless unless a "crime" is committed - which goes back to the chicken and the egg syndrome. They can't prove the crime without going in there, but they can't go in without proof of a crime.

Can we please take religion out of this. Famous mormons know they do not represent the LDS church. They know that they are not the church spokes people. They are welcome to speak out against this individually just as you or I or any other political leader, religious leader (any religion), or celebrity. Instead of picking on a few people that haven't spoken out, why not wonder why no one else has spoken out about this either. Why not work to get the rules changed so that this type of abuse is not permitted to continue?

RainbowsAndGumdrops
04-11-2008, 01:28 PM
[quote=Niner;2127942]okay... I admit I haven't read the last few pages on this thread - but wanted to comment on the article in CNN - quote a portion:
In addition to the children, 139 adult women have voluntarily gone to the shelters. Meisner said the women are not in state custody and are free to leave at any time, although as of Wednesday afternoon none had. [quote]

This is very good news indeed. I am glad the women are starting to leave. I know that i for one would be willing to help one lady with her children to find housing, a job, help with children, etc. Does anyone know how we can volunteer? I have a rental unit sitting empty that would be perfect for helping someone get their feet on the ground. Does anyone know if these women and/or children are allowed to cross state lines?

curious1
04-11-2008, 01:28 PM
It's hard to get the rules changed when so many in power in certain states appear to secretly support this.

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 01:59 PM
Police find papers on marriage, birth and cyanide at Texas ranch

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3059496

Pepper
04-11-2008, 02:03 PM
Police find papers on marriage, birth and cyanide at Texas ranch

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3059496

Holy cow! Cyanide?! :eek: :eek: :eek:

curious1
04-11-2008, 02:15 PM
Why am I not surprised. Would we really be surpised to find out that there was a 'plan' if things started to go wrong? The same thing all over again....scared little no balls man wants total control of his community and if he starts to loose their undying devotion well, he will just talk 'em all out.

LinasK
04-11-2008, 02:18 PM
Ok, I have to jump in here. What do you want the LDS church to say? That we cannot condone the actions of those people?


Yes I do! Their silence in this current (not 100 years ago), ongoing situation speaks volumes, just as silence did in the days of Hitler. The Catholic Church is just as much to blame for looking the other way to cover pedophile priests.:sick::sick::sick: Both the FLDS and the pedophile Catholic priests are sex abuse covered under the guise of religion!:furious:

LinasK
04-11-2008, 02:19 PM
Why am I not surprised. Would we really be surpised to find out that there was a 'plan' if things started to go wrong? The same thing all over again....scared little no balls man wants total control of his community and if he starts to loose their undying devotion well, he will just talk 'em all out.

Another David Koresh or Jim Jones. Why am I not surprised???

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 02:21 PM
Holy cow! Cyanide?! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I know, that defintely caught my attention. I'm looking for the documents right now. They aren't up yet on Smoking Gun. If anyone finds them please link them here.

ETA: I meant to say I'm looking for the search warrant.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-11-2008, 02:45 PM
Okay that just burns my butt!!! :furious: Why won't there be a concerted effort?!?!?

Some were wondering why they have been able to get away with this for so long in these states and here is my opinon (bear with me it sounds a bit like a consipiracy, which I usually don't believe in).....I think it is because they have systematically insured they have either secret FLDS members or at the very least sympathizers in high places. If someone were to do a search of gov't officials in Utah they would proably find that starting with local LE all the way up to state gov't there are of course those who identify themselves as LDS, but are really FLDS in disguise. So who is going to go after them when they have infiltrated all aspects of gov't some completely. Ugh! Maybe I have let my imagination get the best of me. :confused:


This question keeps getting asked over and over. The way I look at it is if utah, arizona and texas all did there reaids at the very same toime, they would be overwhelemed with the amount of childreN. Think about it, there were 416 removed here in texas, and if Utah, and Arizona were raided, that could be a potential 1248 children that the USA would be forced to come up with safe placements for until the court proceedings were done.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Ok I have some things I want to add.

I believe that this is the tip of the ice burg. I believe that Utah, and arizona, and BC and any other location where the compounds are, are just sitting on this and waiting to see what happens. I believe that this will be the first of many raids going on. I believe that they will investigate and this is just the tip, of so much more. I believe it is going to get worse before it gets better. I believe this is the FIRST step in the US trying to eliminate these secret sects. Not just polygamist, but other ultra fundamentalist Christian, and or satanic groups.

The second thing. The Texas government has already declared this as a State disaster area. I believe before to long it will be called a Federal disaster area, Fema trailers will be brought in for volunteers, and state will get access to more resouces. This is not something that is small. It has turned into something very very big


I am on hold until the 17th. We have to wait until the hearing to determine if state gets full custody of these children before we can move in and help. Therefore I am waiting here in PA until after the 17th.

Leila
04-11-2008, 02:55 PM
i think the mothers share some responsibility. i do not want prison time but probation where they can be legally forced to take classes on parenting and be monitored. they should be free to go at this point. no man or woman has been arrested for the crimes against these children yet. until the investigation is complete failure to allow the mothers to leave if they wish would risk any legal case.

One of the reporters on scene (CNN's reporter?) said that many of the adult women are actually young adults in their late teens and 20's, although I did look closely and in the pictures of the women and children at Fort Concho, I did spot two that have gray hair, so obviously older.

I feel parenting classes are a must for all those removed from the compound. Their view of parenting is confined to the beliefs of the FLDS, and not in the best interests of the children.

Just from what's been released in press conferences, I think we're going to see multiple charges and multiple defendants, but it may take some time to put this case together.

thefragile7393
04-11-2008, 02:58 PM
To quote from the KSL website posted earlier:
The list of records also refers to a "cyanide poisoning document," but offers no other explanation.
Dosn't sound like the actual poison....but still, rather strange and suspicious.

Floh
04-11-2008, 03:28 PM
Curious1, your theory is not the work of an active imagination. In fact, this is very true in many aspects of polygamy in Utah. Especially in the Kingston Clan. They send the boys to law school. They have a huge financial empire. It's hard to drive down the street here and not see their businesses. They own a worldwide trash collection company for starters. Waste Management got caught up in the Mafia contract scandal in NYC a few years back. Gives the term "Mormon Mafia" an interesting meaning. Their financial empire is so huge no one can accurately calculate how much the Kingston Clan is worth. So while polygamists may not openly hold office on the State level. I'm sure they contribute to the right candidates running for office.

Polygamists may not hold office on state level, but they have a supporter who does:

Orrin Hatch on polygamy:


"I'm not here to justify polygamy," Hatch said. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved. Bring the evidence to me."

***

"I expect people, whether they're in polygamous or monogamous relationships, to protect children," said Hatch. "I personally don't believe in polygamy. But I'm not going to judge others who feel differently."[emphasis added]

***
Orrin Hatch is:

Hatch is a member of the U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, where he serves on the subcommittees on Energy, Natural Resources, and Infrastructure and Taxation and IRS Oversight. Hatch is also on the Select Committee on Intelligence, where he is the ranking Republican, the Committee on the Judiciary, and the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, as well as the Joint Committee on Taxation. He also serves on the Board of Directors for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orrin_Hatch

Leila
04-11-2008, 03:29 PM
Right now, Texas authorities have admitted that they're having a real tough time sorting out who's who. Children won't identify their parents and there seems to be reason to believe a number of the children were living at the "ranch" without parents. What a mess.

Somewhere in the news reports this past week it was stated that Warren Jeffs had sent his best to the YDZ compound, from Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ. Based on the figures we've seen................416 children removed, 139 adult women removed, and about 60 men remaining at the compound..........that's a total of 615 people.

Knowing Warren Jeffs and the activities at the compound, it's likely that he did select a number of young girls for the purpose of populating the new compound, removing them from their families. When you consider the populations of Hildale and Colorado City - reportedly about 8,000, the YFZ compound was small by comparison.

I think this is where the FBI comes in. If minor girls were taken from Utah and Arizona to the Texas compound for the purpose of populating the compound, that would be transporting minors across state lines for sex.

I also think the FBI is looking closely at the financial structure of the FLDS.

golfmom
04-11-2008, 03:45 PM
I also think the FBI is looking closely at the financial structure of the FLDS.

Well, if they are, that doesn't bode well for the State of Utah since they're in control of the purse strings.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Well, if they are, that doesn't bode well for the State of Utah since they're in control of the purse strings.

I think the FBI will force utah and arizona to start taking these investigations seriously. The FBI may even force utah and arizona to actively start investigate, and quit using the "constitutional rights" as an excuse for lack of investigating these compounds!

SuziQ
04-11-2008, 04:06 PM
Floh! Very good! You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't think of any pols at the time I made my post. Orrin Hatch sure is a supporter of polygamist in Hildale. A polygamist society that is known to commit crimes against children. Shame on him!

curious1
04-11-2008, 04:19 PM
People can say 'well so and so doesn't condone this', but to me if you keep quiet about something you know is wrong or make excuses for it, well you are condoning it. JMO

Leila
04-11-2008, 04:37 PM
Is it still polygamy if one is not legally married to more than one woman? I thought all these unions were within the FLDS church, not unions with legal paperwork filed down at the courthouse like us. So if that is so, there is nothing illegal about living with more than one woman and calling them all your wife. It would only be illegal if that wife were under 18 and having sex with her "husband" at which time then it actually turns in to child rape. I can surely see why the authorities would have a problem prosecuting these adult poeople who choose to live this way. Back in the 60's they called them" communes." Same thing until you cross the line with an underage girl. I would like to know where they are getting their millions of dollars. I thought the women got welfare becaue they are technically single mothers?

This is the way these polygamists get away with what they do. They don't obtain marriage licenses through the county courthouse or county recorder. Their marriages are strictly through their temple. And they sign up the wives with children with the local welfare offices to obtain welfare money. The taxpayers are subsidizing the polygamy groups.

I wonder how many of those 13, 14, 15, and 16 year-old children were actually being compensated twice? If they were in the Texas compound, and their mothers were in Colorado City or Hildale, were their mothers in those cities being compensated with welfare money for their minor daughters from Utah and Arizona, while their minor daughters were receiving welfare money in Texas as unwed mothers?

Pepper
04-11-2008, 04:40 PM
This is the way these polygamists get away with what they do. They don't obtain marriage licenses through the county courthouse or county recorder. Their marriages are strictly through their temple. And they sign up the wives with children with the local welfare offices to obtain welfare money. The taxpayers are subsidizing the polygamy groups.

I wonder how many of those 13, 14, 15, and 16 year-old children were actually being compensated twice? If they were in the Texas compound, and their mothers were in Colorado City or Hildale, were their mothers in those cities being compensated with welfare money for their minor daughters from Utah and Arizona, while their minor daughters were receiving welfare money in Texas as unwed mothers?

Good point about the double dipping. Bet you are right. It's called welfare fraud and it is illegal. Hope they investigate and prosecute, and fine the daylights out of the FLDS so they don't have their deep pockets anymore.

Trino
04-11-2008, 04:41 PM
O. Hatch seems fine with pologamy. Does he not know that it is against the law?

Leila
04-11-2008, 04:47 PM
Someone on here said bigamy is being legally married to more than one woman and polygamy is just having the spiritual marriages to more than one woman. I'm not sure if that's true though.

If you look up the word bigamy in the encyclopedia, it's part of polygamy, with both meaning plural marriages. The difference seems to be in the legal aspects. If one were to obtain a marriage license and wed one person, and then while still married to that person, obtain another marriage license and wed another person, the person who is legally married to two people at the same time is a bigamist and can be prosecuted and sent to jail/prison.

Polygamy seems to be multiple marriages through a church, without a legal marriage license to marry. Certainly those girls in Texas who are younger than the legal age to marry - 16, cannot be considered married.

gamegirl
04-11-2008, 04:48 PM
I've been trying to bite my tongue as I read so many of the comments that are basically saying it's all the fault of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that there are children being sexually abused by members of the FLDS sect.

The tragedy of the situation is that children are being abused and regardless of the religion, the abuse needs to be stopped. Texas law enforcement is on the road to doing something about today's situation and hopefully they will be on top of tomorrow's situation and next month's situation. As long as there are human beings on this earth, there are going to be abused children. We can argue all day about who is to blame but it really comes down to the abuser is responsible. It doesn't matter if the abuser is FLDS, a Catholic priest, a Mormon bishop, a father/brother/uncle, agnotic or athiest. It takes a certain evil spirit to commit crimes against children and it certainly isn't limited to one group of people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no more legal authority to "correct" or "prevent" the teachings of the FLDS sects than the non-Mormon residents of Utah.

Keeping silent about something you know is wrong is the same as condoning it, but please show me where ANY leader of the LDS Church has had knowledge of crimes against children and hidden that knowledge from legal entities. The Mormons are NOT privy to information about the families and sexual practices of the FLDS sects any more than you or I are privy. So can we stop playing the "blame the Mormons" for anyone who practices polygamy and rapes a child game?

Sorry, that's my rant. I'll continue tongue biting now.

gamegirl
04-11-2008, 04:54 PM
"I expect people, whether they're in polygamous or monogamous relationships, to protect children," said Hatch. "I personally don't believe in polygamy. But I'm not going to judge others who feel differently."

Polygamy is not just an FLDS issue. There are other sects and cultures that practice polygamy. I don't believe he was saying he supports polygamy as much as he was saying he's not going to judge people who hold values different than his own.

The 11th Article of Faith says, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Isn't that what Hatch was saying when he said he wasn't going to judge people who practice polygamy as a part of their faith? (The context of the question to him was specifically FLDS)