Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #3

[mollymalone]

It's called denial. You know like when a pedo is caught and they say: it didn't happen, it didn't happen, it didn't happen... she wanted me to do it.
Except this time it is their Mommys- it didn't happen, it didn't happen, it didn't happen... nobody was forced.Right.

Marilyn: They just took my little seven year old and they lied to us. [Child Protective Services] lied." (*This looks like the same Marilyn that took the cameras through her part of a house and who showed a pic of a little girl and said that was her only child.)

The women say their children weren't abused and they say they don't know why authorities are concerned. When the women were told why authorities said they were doing this, because young teenage girls are having sex forced upon them and that they are forced into marriage, the women denied the allegations.

Marilyn: "That is a lie. They are not forced.
Sally: "Never."

Edited to add: Just coerced.

[Ladybass0711]

After watching this and continuing to watch this. All I can say is these woman were deeply programmed. They repeated the same thing one right after the other. These woman were very badly programmed. I feel sorry for them, but know the very best thing for them is not to have there kids back. They need help just as much as there kids do. And if they can get the help, then so be it. But at least these kids will know what it s like in the real world, and not being forced to believe in crap they don't want to.

[mollymalone]

After watching this and continuing to watch this. All I can say is these woman were deeply programmed. They repeated the same thing one right after the other. These woman were very badly programmed. I feel sorry for them, but know the very best thing for them is not to have there kids back. They need help just as much as there kids do. And if they can get the help, then so be it. But at least these kids will know what it s like in the real world, and not being forced to believe in crap they don't want to.Yes, but once back in they'll be reprogrammed.

Did you notice they all make their voices soft? I presume that's one of the conditions of keeping sweet, is to never raise your voice or talk normally around the men. Edited to add: I've been culling thru the articles finding what the FLDS members have to say and putting it together into a file and they say the same thing on every show or article. There seems to be no variation from the theme.

RE: The HEARING:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8947241

Clerks say the hearing before Tom Green County District Judge Barbara Walther will begin at 10 a.m. tomorrow in two venues: Walther's courtroom and the city hall auditorium one block away. Hundreds in the auditorium will be able to watch the proceedings via a closed-circuit television and will possibly be able to participate in the hearing.

[sherri79]

Right.

Marilyn: They just took my little seven year old and they lied to us. [Child Protective Services] lied." (*This looks like the same Marilyn that took the cameras through her part of a house and who showed a pic of a little girl and said that was her only child.)

The women say their children weren't abused and they say they don't know why authorities are concerned. When the women were told why authorities said they were doing this, because young teenage girls are having sex forced upon them and that they are forced into marriage, the women denied the allegations.

Marilyn: "That is a lie. They are not forced.
Sally: "Never."

Edited to add: Just coerced. i see it as force. what is more of a threat?

have sex with me or i will beat you.

have sex with me or you will burn in hell forever!

these girls are raised to believe these men have power over their very soul. as a victim of child sex abuse i can say the body heals. the scars are left on the soul.

[Ladybass0711]

Yes, but once back in they'll be reprogrammed.

Did you notice they all make their voices soft? I presume that's one of the conditions of keeping sweet, is to never raise your voice or talk normally around the men. Edited to add: I've been culling thru the articles finding what the FLDS members have to say and putting it together into a file and they say the same thing on every show or article. There seems to be no variation from the theme.

RE: The HEARING:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8947241

Clerks say the hearing before Tom Green County District Judge Barbara Walther will begin at 10 a.m. tomorrow in two venues: Walther's courtroom and the city hall auditorium one block away. Hundreds in the auditorium will be able to watch the proceedings via a closed-circuit television and will possibly be able to participate in the hearing.


Oh I don't doubt they will be reprogrammed, once yoru in it it is hard to get out. And those that do have a hell of a time, staying out of it, and have a hell of a time not returning!

[mollymalone]

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271064,00.html

"she won't have to walk through the courtroom doors Thursday for the state to prove its case of widespread child abuse at the Fundamentalist LDS Church compound. "I think some people have really focused on that (Sarah) but the reality is that her phone call is the reason we went out there, but it was not the reason for the removals," said Greg Cunningham, spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services. The removals happened based on what we saw out there. It was the investigation afterward that led us to believe there was abuse happening in widespread fashion at the compound," he said."

There has been great pressure for state officials to "produce" the child bride, but Cunninghan said she has not been positively identified. He does say that officials believe "she is among the children in San Angelo with us. It is not what we have built our case on," he said. "In our case, what we have found is more than enough evidence that we believe will show that this abuse is happening and these kids are put at risk by returning there."

[mollymalone]

i see it as force. what is more of a threat?

have sex with me or i will beat you.

have sex with me or you will burn in hell forever!

these girls are raised to believe these men have power over their very soul. as a victim of child sex abuse i can say the body heals. the scars are left on the soul.I added "Just coerced in response to their "No one is forced." I see it as forced because they use the mental abuse and threat of loss of salvation as well as the physical abuse.

[Ladybass0711]

have you spoken with the attornys??

Yes

Are the attorny's optimistic???

silence for 30 seconds then " I can't speak for them I dunno"

Just goes to say that there own attorny's are not optimistic.

[sherri79]

I added "Just coerced in response to their "No one is forced." I see it as forced because they use the mental abuse and threat of loss of salvation as well as the physical abuse. i understand now. sorry. :blowkiss:

[mollymalone]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

"Neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said. In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District. The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded.

[mollymalone]

i understand now. sorry. :blowkiss:
:blowkiss: I ditto what you said.

[SieSie]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

"Neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said. In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District. The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded.
Interesting. So, can they get sued for tax evasion or something, I wonder?

[Ladybass0711]

Can we say that this gentlemen (loosley stated) is aware that texas group did and does practices underage marriages??(sex with children) He just admitted it on national television. Hope the CPS got it recorded so they can play it in court tomorow!

[mollymalone]

CAROLYN JESSOP: Regarding daily life, when I'm not doing book promotions I get to spend time with my family, something I've never had. When I lived with Merril he required me to work and so I was isolated away from my children and he had other people responsible for the care of my children and the amount of time I was allowed to spend with them was very limited. My children were not allowed to call me mother or mom, they referred to me as Mother Carolyn. My presence in their life was considered no different than any wife. Now they call me mom.

RE: The elaborate hairstyles: "Everything is so restricted and so controlled if you have one area where you can put a little bit of time into yourself, you do it. It's one of their few outlets. It's so controlled, the dress, no personal expression.

To comment on the cult thing ... the FLDS meets the definition of the 10 things that make a cult dangerous and destructive, it contains all 10.

Highly controlling from the time you get up until the time you go to bed at night, including what you're allowed exposure to. You can't watch TV. There used to be a moderate amount of it. When I was there in Colorado City, Ariz., we did not have access to TV, radio, the Internet, newspapers and movies and anything from outside our community. You lived every day in this little town and could only leave with a man and permission.
I went to college in town close to the community and I went with several of my husband's daughters. They monitored everything I did and reported to their dad. I wasn't allowed to work; I was supposed to take a very enormous class load, go to school, and be back so he knew where I was. I never developed relationships with any of the other students because I didn't dare. "

"We have an unofficial count right now of 2,000 boys that have been dumped on the streets of cities and told that the prophet has rejected them"

"Once they've been sent away they know they can never come back."

[mollymalone]

Interesting. So, can they get sued for tax evasion or something, I wonder?
The FBI was called in because all of this is related to an ongoing investigation, and in addition to the abuse allegations, it's my OP that they are looking into the fraud and other financial misconduct. Although this group paid their taxes and the property taxes, the question is where did the money come from that they pay it with. If they can prove its been paid for via fraud it's quite probably they could confiscate the properties?

[mysteriew]

wow this thread is suddenly very quiet. Is there no body around to defend these poor :rolleyes: ;) women?

LOL, I'll take the challenge.

Let's see. They are their children and only they have the right to say how they will be raised. If one of their children dies from child abuse or waterboarding, it is God's will. If one of their children dies from too early pregnancy, it is God's will. If they die from that beating, it is God's will. If the child is born to too young a mother and then dies or the mother miscarries- it is God's will. If they or their daughters disobey their husbands, they deserve to be beaten until they submit- it is God's will. God put them on earth to suffer through this life, but if they are very very good to the church and their husbands then someday, maybe, really maybe- their husband just might choose to allow them to rule a planet with him. Maybe. So above all, their husband must be pleased. They must choose their husband over their surviving children.... it is God's will.

Their sole purpose in life is to please their husbands and be fruitful and have many children. They can own nothing and have nothing, except their children (and those belong to the church.) How will they ever prove to their husbands that they are worthy of being chosen, if they do not have their children? Thus, the state must give the children back.

One thing I am confused about. If each man with three or more wives gets a planet to rule, who are they going to be ruling over? If a child is born too soon or dies young, where do they go? Where do the wives who are not chosen go?

[mollymalone]

RE: the three women on the Today Show

Carolyn Jessop: I did see three women today on TV. One of them was a step-daughter of mine. What I'm seeing is that it's scripted. They're saying what they're being told to say by the man (probably Merril Jessop told them what to say). Monica, his daughter, did most of the talking (the one in the middle with red hair and glasses). They seemed that they didn't understand how to answer questions that they hadn't been scripted on.

[Ladybass0711]

Admins? Can we start a new thread for tomorows court cases please, so we don't have to scroll through several pages?

[mollymalone]

Admins? Can we start a new thread for tomorows court cases please, so we don't have to scroll through several pages?That might be a good idea since the hearing is slated to be heard over two days time.

[Truly]

LOL, I'll take the challenge.

Let's see. They are their children and only they have the right to say how they will be raised. If one of their children dies from child abuse or waterboarding, it is God's will. If one of their children dies from too early pregnancy, it is God's will. If they die from that beating, it is God's will. If the child is born to too young a mother and then dies or the mother miscarries- it is God's will. If they or their daughters disobey their husbands, they deserve to be beaten until they submit- it is God's will. God put them on earth to suffer through this life, but if they are very very good to the church and their husbands then someday, maybe, really maybe- their husband just might choose to allow them to rule a planet with him. Maybe. So above all, their husband must be pleased. They must choose their husband over their surviving children.... it is God's will.

Their sole purpose in life is to please their husbands and be fruitful and have many children. They can own nothing and have nothing, except their children (and those belong to the church.) How will they ever prove to their husbands that they are worthy of being chosen, if they do not have their children? Thus, the state must give the children back.

One thing I am confused about. If each man with three or more wives gets a planet to rule, who are they going to be ruling over? If a child is born too soon or dies young, where do they go? Where do the wives who are not chosen go?

LOL! I had never in my life prior to this thread heard that the FLDS men believe that when they die they go to their own planet! When somebody brought up the planet thing earlier, I thought they were kidding, and asked if the women get to be goddesses of their own planets, too. Wouldn't it be soooo funny if these creeps bit the dust and actually ended up floating all alone in outer space?! :crazy:

[Ladybass0711]

That might be a good idea since the hearing is slated to be heard over two days time.


Maybe a seperate forum would be in order here!? Just thinking by the time is all said and done we could have 30 or more different threads

[mollymalone]

LOL! I had never in my life prior to this thread heard that the FLDS men believe that when they die they go to their own planet! When somebody brought up the planet thing earlier, I thought they were kidding, and asked if the women get to be goddesses of their own planets, too. Wouldn't it be soooo funny if these creeps bit the dust and actually ended up floating all alone in outer space?! :crazy:Quite a few of them might end up in jail and since they'll have lots of time on their hands they can float in their minds to outer space!! I wonder though if the rest of their community will be putting money into their commissary...especially if the authorities put paid to their welfare fraud etc.

[mollymalone]

Maybe a seperate forum would be in order here!? Just thinking by the time is all said and done we could have 30 or more different threadsAs always, up to the lovely mods!

[cheko1]

LOL, I'll take the challenge.

Let's see. They are their children and only they have the right to say how they will be raised. If one of their children dies from child abuse or waterboarding, it is God's will. If one of their children dies from too early pregnancy, it is God's will. If they die from that beating, it is God's will. If the child is born to too young a mother and then dies or the mother miscarries- it is God's will. If they or their daughters disobey their husbands, they deserve to be beaten until they submit- it is God's will. God put them on earth to suffer through this life, but if they are very very good to the church and their husbands then someday, maybe, really maybe- their husband just might choose to allow them to rule a planet with him. Maybe. So above all, their husband must be pleased. They must choose their husband over their surviving children.... it is God's will.

Their sole purpose in life is to please their husbands and be fruitful and have many children. They can own nothing and have nothing, except their children (and those belong to the church.) How will they ever prove to their husbands that they are worthy of being chosen, if they do not have their children? Thus, the state must give the children back.

One thing I am confused about. If each man with three or more wives gets a planet to rule, who are they going to be ruling over? If a child is born too soon or dies young, where do they go? Where do the wives who are not chosen go?

That was good mysteryview!!!!
Made me laugh.....

[Truly]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

"Neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said. In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District. The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded.





“It’s nothing more than a cult,” said Benjamin Bistline, who spent years as a devoted FLDS member in Short Creek, Ariz. “A cult is controlled by one person. What he says goes or you get booted.”
After 40 years in the group, Bistline left in 1987 because leaders of the religious community, formerly “Priesthood Group,” refused to give him a second wife.
“The women and kids aren’t criminals,” Bistline said. “But the men, they need to suffer.”

But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.
The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.
The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant.
Whatever the taxman’s viewpoint, an expert on Mormon splinter groups considers FLDS a church.

To meet the definition, a church needs only a small group of people meeting to share religion and some sort of chain of command, said Steven Shields.



Thanks, as always, molly for all of your excellent links.

I have two questions about the above, in addition to the FLDS finances, which is a huge concern. First, do I read that correctly; that the FLDS at Short Creek used to call itself The Priesthood Group?

And second, if the FLDS never filed for tax-exempt status, are they even on file as a church at all? Maybe they are in fact simply a pedophile cult with no claim to religious rights?

The chain of command requirement to become a church is something I just found to be quite strange... although somewhat explanatory when looking at the history of religions.

[cheko1]

Can you imagine what the men of the FLDS are saying about a lady judge presiding over the cases? Wheweeeeeeeee The men thinking all women are beneath them. They'll fly into a fit of rage before this is all over.

[adnoid]

...If one of their children dies from child abuse or waterboarding, it is God's will. If one of their children dies from too early pregnancy, it is God's will. If they die from that beating, it is God's will. If the child is born to too young a mother and then dies or the mother miscarries- it is God's will. If they or their daughters disobey their husbands, they deserve to be beaten until they submit- it is God's will. God put them on earth to suffer through this life, but if they are very very good to the church and their husbands then someday, maybe, really maybe- their husband just might choose to allow them to rule a planet with him. Maybe. So above all, their husband must be pleased. They must choose their husband over their surviving children.... it is God's will...

If the FBI raids your compound and throws your child-abusing cult asses in the slammer, it's God's will.

[Floh]

As always, up to the lovely mods!

I think there is so much more to come out. and i believe we are not talking weeks or months, but years.

[cheko1]

Thanks, as always, molly for all of your excellent links.

I have two questions about the above, in addition to the FLDS finances, which is a huge concern. First, do I read that correctly; that the FLDS at Short Creek used to call itself The Priesthood Group?

And second, if the FLDS never filed for tax-exempt status, are they even on file as a church at all? Maybe they are in fact simply a pedophile cult with no claim to religious rights?

The chain of command requirement to become a church is something I just found to be quite strange... although somewhat explanatory when looking at the history of religions.


I always wondered how they filed taxes with the IRS.
How can a man claim 6 wives or more & 60 kids?????

[Taximom]

I always wondered how they filed taxes with the IRS.
How can a man claim 6 wives or more & 60 kids?????

They would use IRS Form Pedopoly1040.

[cheko1]

They would use IRS Form Pedopoly1040.

LMAO Taximom!!!! My thoughts exactly....

[Truly]

They would use IRS Form Pedopoly1040.

LOL! They'd use the short form...which reads...

LINE 1: HOW MUCH MONEY DID YOU MAKE LAST YEAR?

LINE 2: SEND IT IN!

[Ladybass0711]

Hey guys mind if I start a new thread for the court cases and etc?? Any Objections!?

[Floh]

Hey guys mind if I start a new thread for the court cases and etc?? Any Objections!?

None at all! :blowkiss:

[Leila]

wow this thread is suddenly very quiet. Is there no body around to defend these poor :rolleyes: ;) women?

I was reading this thread, watching Larry King Live and Anderson Cooper's 360, when the doorbell rang and it was a neighbor stopping by. We got to chatting and I'm just now getting back to this thread.

Having watched the FLDS women being interviewed has been very interesting. It's very clear that they have been heavily coached in what to say and do. It's very scripted.............they are only to make a strong appeal for the return of their children. They've been told to act tearful...........a propaganda piece. I suspect we won't be seeing any more interviews with FLDS women after tomorrow.

The tour of Marilyn's home was mind-boggling. The kitchen looked institutional. The living room was almost frightening, with a lone easy chair and numerous straight-back chairs like one would see in a school auditorium in several semi-circles facing that lone chair. I can guarantee that none of the women ever sit in that lone easy chair - that's reserved for the husband of the family. The sheer amount of chairs in that living room is overwhelming. One think I noticed, were several pictures of Warren Jeffs on the walls. In the kitchen, on a wall behind the table, was a group of about a dozen pictures of men.

[cheko1]

lol! hahahaha! That was the funniest thing I think I've ever seen. I know some will think I'm cruel, but IMO these women, holier than thou Christian Women, just looked straight into the camera and LIED THIER ASS OFF.They werwe ALL 20 or 21 when married. yeah right. Notice Larry didn't ask then about the babies being waterboarded and beaten and they themselves being beaten. Because he knew these good Christian Woman would just look into the camera a lie their ass off. There is nothing I abhor more than a hypocrite on TV. If I had an sympathy at all once they just romoved it. I'm glad the children are not with them and I don't feel one bit sorry for these liars.

I can hardly watch them because I want to go threw the TV and beech slap them. I understand yes they might be brainwashed. But this is as ignorant as people can get.

[Ladybass0711]

Ok Here is the new thread
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2142662#post2142662

[philamena]

Can you imagine what the men of the FLDS are saying about a lady judge presiding over the cases? Wheweeeeeeeee The men thinking all women are beneath them. They'll fly into a fit of rage before this is all over.

Oh man, cheko, the men may blow a gasket.
I must say I find the female judge quite fitting.:crazy:

[cheko1]

Oh man, cheko, the men may blow a gasket.
I must say I find the female judge quite fitting.:crazy:

I hope they all get totally radical with the judge tomorrow & thrown in jail. Serve the old buzzards right!lol

[philamena]

:D you got that right, lol.
Tomorrow will definitely be interesting.

[Ladybass0711]

Guys the new thread is here please!

Ok Here is the new thread
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...62#post2142662 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2142662#post2142662)

[trixie]

Oh man, cheko, the men may blow a gasket.
I must say I find the female judge quite fitting.:crazy:

Gods justice maybe?;)

[trixie]

LOL, I'll take the challenge.

Let's see. They are their children and only they have the right to say how they will be raised. If one of their children dies from child abuse or waterboarding, it is God's will. If one of their children dies from too early pregnancy, it is God's will. If they die from that beating, it is God's will. If the child is born to too young a mother and then dies or the mother miscarries- it is God's will. If they or their daughters disobey their husbands, they deserve to be beaten until they submit- it is God's will. God put them on earth to suffer through this life, but if they are very very good to the church and their husbands then someday, maybe, really maybe- their husband just might choose to allow them to rule a planet with him. Maybe. So above all, their husband must be pleased. They must choose their husband over their surviving children.... it is God's will.

Their sole purpose in life is to please their husbands and be fruitful and have many children. They can own nothing and have nothing, except their children (and those belong to the church.) How will they ever prove to their husbands that they are worthy of being chosen, if they do not have their children? Thus, the state must give the children back.

One thing I am confused about. If each man with three or more wives gets a planet to rule, who are they going to be ruling over? If a child is born too soon or dies young, where do they go? Where do the wives who are not chosen go?

lol! Boy oh boy, you can just tell this "religion" was started by a man.:rolleyes:

[mysteriew]

ROLMAO!!! Cheko, Adnoid you made me wet myself a little bit!

[cheko1]

ROLMAO!!! Cheko, Adnoid you made me wet myself a little bit!

Sorry mysteryview!!! LOL

[Truly]

Guys the new thread is here please!

Ok Here is the new thread
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...62#post2142662


Ladybass, that is the thread for the court proceedings which begin tommorrow, correct? So that people can check in for updates from the court without having to wade through everything else? I am new, so I do not know how the mods go about choosing which cases should be divided up into many threads. Maybe you should PM a mod? It does seem that this case has many facets.:)

[Ladybass0711]

Ladybass, that is the thread for the court proceedings which begin tommorrow, correct? So that people can check in for updates from the court without having to wade through everything else? I am new, so I do not know how the mods go about choosing which cases should be divided up into many threads. Maybe you should PM a mod?


I got the mods permision to start a new thread. Basically I started it so that we could discuss the proceedings, and not have to scroll through 36 different pages.

[Truly]

I got the mods permision to start a new thread. Basically I started it so that we could discuss the proceedings, and not have to scroll through 36 different pages.


Please forgive my ignorance. :blowkiss: Should people stop posting in this thread, or is the new thread for Court Proceedings only? Thanks, I just don't know how it works.:blowkiss:

[Ladybass0711]

Please forgive my ignorance. :blowkiss: Should people stop posting in this thread, or is the new thread for Court Proceedings only? Thanks, I just don't know how it works.:blowkiss:


Not entirely sure lol. If we post here we will ahve to scroll through the pages. And if we start posting there we will have to scroll through those pages. hmmmmm either or I guess.

[Floh]

Not entirely sure lol. If we post here we will ahve to scroll through the pages. And if we start posting there we will have to scroll through those pages. hmmmmm either or I guess.

I'm hopeful a new forum devoted to this case will be started with all the threads gathered up, as i believe there are many, many more posts to come.

Then we can have court proceedings reported with no discussion allowed so things are all in one place.

[Ladybass0711]

I'm hopeful a new forum devoted to this case will be started with all the threads gathered up, as i believe there are many, many more posts to come.

Then we can have court proceedings reported with no discussion allowed so things are all in one place.

The mods are working on a new forum already. Hopefully it will be soon!

[Floh]

The mods are working on a new forum already. Hopefully it will be soon!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[mollymalone]

Thanks, as always, molly for all of your excellent links.

I have two questions about the above, in addition to the FLDS finances, which is a huge concern. First, do I read that correctly; that the FLDS at Short Creek used to call itself The Priesthood Group?

And second, if the FLDS never filed for tax-exempt status, are they even on file as a church at all? Maybe they are in fact simply a pedophile cult with no claim to religious rights?

The chain of command requirement to become a church is something I just found to be quite strange... although somewhat explanatory when looking at the history of religions.Yes, that's correct. I believe Warren Jeffs also told Merrill Jessop that he was the true head of the priesthood when he got slammed into the slammer. I would imagine they still call themselves that.
MMMM Good question!! They don't pay social security, in most cases they don't pay taxes, but they collect the welfare funds and any other funds they can get...most religious groups file for tax extempt status.

They fit the criteria for cult and they've been labeled a hate group, so I'd call them a cult that exploits children.

[LinasK]

I read an article today where a journalist was asking those same questions and then he asked about the charges against Warren Jeffs that resulted in his incarceration.

The woman, Janet (I think that was her name) said those were just "stories."

The women all say that "that sarah doesn't live here" ; there's no one alive by that name"; or "she used to live here but got mad and left";

Again, it's just stories, only this time they're the ones telling them.:eek:
Oh no, I hope they didn't kill her!

[Floh]

:eek:
Oh no, I hope they didn't kill her!

I have the feeling they did. :(

[LinasK]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

"Neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said. In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District. The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded.

Allright! The IRS is onto them!:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

[LinasK]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:They would use IRS Form Pedopoly1040.

[mysteriew]

Allright! The IRS is onto them!:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

You know that brings up a question. FLDS is claiming religous prosecution. So legally how is a church defined? The FLDS has not asked for non-profit for churches. They are not affiliated with any established religions (that is not a requirement I know, but just a statement). So what defines them as a church/religion, vs. say a para-military org. or a large financial company? Can just anyone say well I believe this, and all employees who are going to work for me also have to believe this?

Also, would you say that the majority of the employees in the companies owned by the FLDS are members? So if a non-member who is of a minority race applied for a job, and had a different "religion" would that be discrimination?

[Mygirlsadie]

Ok what's up with the accents? I was watching some of the mothers whine on the news and their accents sound foreign. (Kind of like Madonna)

[Ladybass0711]

Morning everyone!

[Medusa]

You know that brings up a question. FLDS is claiming religous prosecution. So legally how is a church defined? The FLDS has not asked for non-profit for churches. They are not affiliated with any established religions (that is not a requirement I know, but just a statement). So what defines them as a church/religion, vs. say a para-military org. or a large financial company? Can just anyone say well I believe this, and all employees who are going to work for me also have to believe this?

Also, would you say that the majority of the employees in the companies owned by the FLDS are members? So if a non-member who is of a minority race applied for a job, and had a different "religion" would that be discrimination?


I don't know. I think you pretty much are a church if you say you are. I, along with my husband, are head of a church we founded. We filed with our county. We see no reason to be tax exempt and at this time are not. But we legally have a church and because we and our group say we are, we are.

[Medusa]

I thought of something. IIRC back when one of the leaders of the East Coast Mafia - can't think of his name off the top of my head - was sent to prison some years back, although I think he has since died, I thought some action was taken by the prison system to stop him from continuing to run his empire behind bars. So, how is Jeffs getting away with this? Anyone know?

[CarpeDiem]

Coverage of today's hearing here:

http://www.deseretnews.com/home

[CarpeDiem]

Morning everyone!

Good Afternoon. ;)

[Ladybass0711]

Coverage of today's hearing here:

http://www.deseretnews.com/home

Can anything haveng to do with the court case go in this link (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63558&page=3) please? So we can stay as organized as possible.

Thanks!

[CarpeDiem]

Can anything haveng to do with the court case go in this link (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63558&page=3) please? So we can stay as organized as possible.

Thanks!

Grrr, I get irritated when there's multiple threads going on the same topics, it's not like there's a forum for just this case, yet.

[Ladybass0711]

Grrr, I get irritated when there's multiple threads going on the same topics, it's not like there's a forum for just this case, yet.


There is one being created. Mods are alreayd working on it. Sorry!

I think for people who want to find out the latest on the court proceedings, its going to cause alot of confusion, and time, haveing to scroll through pages and pages of stuff unrelated to the proceedings. And since this is a huge case, there is going to be ALOT more to come.

[winteryns]

Sorry for just popping in the asking questions but I can read through all the pages and was hoping someone could help me out. TIA

Has it ever been mentioned how many boys vs girls have been taken?

I saw pictures through out the bedrooms of the same person when the wives were giving tours of the their kids bedroom. Was that Warren Jeff in all of those photos?

[barb0301]

Sorry for just popping in the asking questions but I can read through all the pages and was hoping someone could help me out. TIA

Has it ever been mentioned how many boys vs girls have been taken?

I saw pictures through out the bedrooms of the same person when the wives were giving tours of the their kids bedroom. Was that Warren Jeff in all of those photos?

Hi Winter !!

27 "adolescent" aged boys were removed. As far as younger boys, no figures have been released.

And yes, those were pictures of Warren Jeff hanging in the homes. (UGH!)

[Floh]

Morning everyone!

Good evening!

[Floh]

Grrr, I get irritated when there's multiple threads going on the same topics, it's not like there's a forum for just this case, yet.

I know. but patience because i think they are working on it. :)

having said that, i'm the least patient person you could meet unless i'm teaching when i appear to have a complete change of personality, oddly enough. :waitasec:

[Ladybass0711]

I know. but patience because i think they are working on it. :)

having said that, i'm the least patient person you could meet unless i'm teaching when i appear to have a complete change of personality, oddly enough. :waitasec:

lmao thanks for the laugh! I can relate!

[mollymalone]

FOX: Introduced into court was lists of the men, in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Their wives were listed alongside them and some of them were 16 years old.
FLDS lawyers argued the names of the wives should be kept under seal because it's a religious matter. Judge said it is not a religious matter but of underage children.

A Lawyer for a 2 year old child: the child kept referring to the woman not as mommy but as Jane. The woman would correct the child and say "Mother Jane". The 2 year old child had no idea who the father was.

[Floh]

Who's hiding whom — and where?

Other FLDS enclaves are feeling scrutiny

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271118,00.html

'Know your neighbors'. :(

[mollymalone]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/


San Angelo, Tx has updates on the hearing

[winteryns]

Hi Winter !!

27 "adolescent" aged boys were removed. As far as younger boys, no figures have been released.

And yes, those were pictures of Warren Jeff hanging in the homes. (UGH!)

Thanks!

[Ladybass0711]

OMG


"Former FLDS Church member Robert Richter reported to the Phoenix New Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_New_Times) that Warren Jeffs has repeatedly alluded to the nineteenth century Mormon teaching of "blood atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement)" in church sermons. Under the doctrine of blood atonement, certain serious sins can only be atoned for by the sinner's death. Richter also claims that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_evidence) if such "atonements" were to take place"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints#Temple_worship

[Ladybass0711]

Texas Attorney General hints at bigamy prosecutions


http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271348,00.html

[tnajk]

I want to bring something up that I havent read anyone else say yet. (I may have missed it though)

I'm VERY concerned about some of the volunteer attorneys for the Children. How do they prevent potential FLDS members (from other parts of the country) from representing some of these kids? I mean, if that were to happen you know that child wont get a fair trial/representation. You just know every FLDS member that is an attorney out there were on their way to Texas as soon as news of the raid hit the air.

Was CPS screening the volunteers? I can't imagine them wanting to spend too much time worrying about the background of the attorneys. Especially considering the sheer number of attorneys they were going to need for all the children.

Anyone thought of the potential problems this could cause??

[Ladybass0711]

I want to bring something up that I havent read anyone else say yet. (I may have missed it though)

I'm VERY concerned about some of the volunteer attorneys for the Children. How do they prevent potential FLDS members (from other parts of the country) from representing some of these kids? I mean, if that were to happen you know that child wont get a fair trial/representation. You just know every FLDS member that is an attorney out there were on their way to Texas as soon as news of the raid hit the air.

Was CPS screening the volunteers? I can't imagine them wanting to spend too much time worrying about the background of the attorneys. Especially considering the sheer number of attorneys they were going to need for all the children.

Anyone thought of the potential problems this could cause??

Its only texas attorneys being allowed to represent the kids, and they have all been background checked etc etc.

[Pepper]

This is slighly off topic, but interesting.

Eldorado is in Tom Green County, Texas, so the county of Tom Green* is the entity prosecuting these charges.

Tom Green is a Utah polygamist who was sentenced to 5 to life for marrying a 13 yr. old in 1986. He was tried and sentenced in 2002.

*The namesake of Tom Green County was a confederate brigadier general.

[tnajk]

Ladybass, I thought I read somewhere the attorneys were from all over the US. I sure hope you're right though!

[golfmom]

I hate to ask, but I've been off line all day. Can someone give me a down and dirty update of today's hearing?

[Ladybass0711]

Ladybass, I thought I read somewhere the attorneys were from all over the US. I sure hope you're right though!

I believe that it is just texas attorny's at least that is what fox and cnn is reporting.

[Ladybass0711]

I hate to ask, but I've been off line all day. Can someone give me a down and dirty update of today's hearing?

Hearing thread is located here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63558&page=6).

[Glow]

Hi tnajk!

Welcome to Websleuths, its nice to have you here! :blowkiss:

[Leila]

OMG


"Former FLDS Church member Robert Richter reported to the Phoenix New Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_New_Times) that Warren Jeffs has repeatedly alluded to the nineteenth century Mormon teaching of "blood atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement)" in church sermons. Under the doctrine of blood atonement, certain serious sins can only be atoned for by the sinner's death. Richter also claims that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_evidence) if such "atonements" were to take place"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints#Temple_worship

I guess we know where Jeff's was headed with this - no identification of anyone who might pay the ultimate "blood atonement."

It looks like the YFZ ranch was planned to be Jeffs own little kingdom, where he decided who was to marry whom, who was to live, who was to die.

[Trino]

I guess we know where Jeff's was headed with this - no identification of anyone who might pay the ultimate "blood atonement."

Bet we can guess that it was NOT Jeffs.

[Ladybass0711]

President of the state of texas bar


Children are still not opening up to there lawyers.

[BarnGoddess]

I've been trying to follow all this bloody mess. I have a question. Hope someone can answer me.

Isn't the FLDS breaking a Texas and a Federal law? Aren't births supposed to be registered by law? Social Security numbers are handed out to infants now. If no one know's who's who out there, then why are these people above the law of the land the rest of us must obey?

[KR2tonenow]

I guess we know where Jeff's was headed with this - no identification of anyone who might pay the ultimate "blood atonement."

It looks like the YFZ ranch was planned to be Jeffs own little kingdom, where he decided who was to marry whom, who was to live, who was to die.

It's completely un-nerving that this type of sect still is in our society. This will be a long drawn out case.

I hope the IRS gets ahold of the compound! These women look un-normal, almost un-real to modern society. Shocking is right! :eek:

[SewingDeb]

That's a great question BarnGoddess. You would think they would have to register all births (and deaths) with the state or be in violation of the law.

[BarnGoddess]

That's a great question BarnGoddess. You would think they would have to register all births (and deaths) with the state or be in violation of the law.
in googling, I found another forum, Early Retirement of something like that that had a discussion. Someone mentioned that telling a young pregnant girl's actual age was nearly impossible if there were no birth records. Interesting.

[SewingDeb]

in googling, I found another forum, Early Retirement of something like that that had a discussion. Someone mentioned that telling a young pregnant girl's actual age was nearly impossible if there were no birth records. Interesting.

Hmmm...can't physicians tell by their teeth and bones? It might be hard but probably not impossible.

In the list of items taken in the search, there were plenty of birth and death records, family trees, etc. Of course, if they won't tell their real names and parent's names, that doesn't help much.

[Leila]

I've been trying to follow all this bloody mess. I have a question. Hope someone can answer me.

Isn't the FLDS breaking a Texas and a Federal law? Aren't births supposed to be registered by law? Social Security numbers are handed out to infants now. If no one know's who's who out there, then why are these people above the law of the land the rest of us must obey?

Yes, the births and deaths are supposed to be registered by law, and I would think this is another violation that could and should be levied against the FLDS.

Here is a picture taken from a helicopter by a photographer who was taking pictures of the YFZ ranch in the very early days of the raid. It's clearly two graves, and I wonder if those deaths have been reported to the state?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/mrspeavey/4082008-0835.jpg

Here's the website for the pictures - the above picture is on page 2 of the site. Some of the most recent are excellent!

http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

[BarnGoddess]

It looks as if there are now two properties in Colorado. Another one came to light the other day.

Crawford, the latest:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3076545

One we knew about from Jon Krakauer:

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html

[philamena]

I've been trying to follow all this bloody mess. I have a question. Hope someone can answer me.

Isn't the FLDS breaking a Texas and a Federal law? Aren't births supposed to be registered by law? Social Security numbers are handed out to infants now. If no one know's who's who out there, then why are these people above the law of the land the rest of us must obey?

Hey BG,
Those questions were asked tonight on LKL. The answer is yes, births are supposed to be registered. Deaths are supposed to be registered and children are supposed to be protected from sexual predators and forced marriage is supposen to be illegal. The compound makes its own law.

According to the atty on LKL, the compound keeps people out for a reason...the above are only a few.

Another reporter said that TX LE thought only about 100 people TOTAL lived in the compound. They had no idea there would be over 400 children alone.

Another guest was a female who ran away from one of these compounds years ago. She said that people were beaten nearly to death and some to death.... especially boys for not living by the law. Her brother was tortured. She also said that it's common for men to marry their own daughters.

Glow,
Hey there,
Question, surely you don't want children in that environment do you?

[SewingDeb]

Leila,

Thanks for the picture and the link to more. What do you want to bet these deaths have not been reported to the state?

[BarnGoddess]

Thanks, Leila. Anyone else can help? Perhaps someone from the hearings thread?

[BarnGoddess]

Thanks Philamena. I appreciate it. Check out my Crawford, CO link. I saw this on the news the other night. Here we go again. A resident right near the new compound was livid about the fence. Blocking his view of the mountains. He's pissed.

[philamena]

BG,
Just read your article. I guess this is when things need to be investigated...when the compounds are being built but then again, peoples rights to assemble and rights to privacy have to be considered. Right?
I think the states where the FLDS is followed, should have legislature so investigations can be done early, so women and children are protected.

Another thing that was repeated today on Fox was that the women and children are constantly brain washed.

[Glow]

I've been trying to follow all this bloody mess. I have a question. Hope someone can answer me.

Isn't the FLDS breaking a Texas and a Federal law? Aren't births supposed to be registered by law? Social Security numbers are handed out to infants now. If no one know's who's who out there, then why are these people above the law of the land the rest of us must obey?

To respond to your 3 questions,

#!Ideally yes. Births are supposed to be registered. The facts are that in every state there are many babies born at home and in other situations where the birth never gets registered.

#2 As far as SS #s, the last I heard that is a loosely monitored situation. Most people WANT to register for the benefits later, but no one goes after those who for whatever reason haven't registered. Many children enter kindergarten with an SS# recently received.

#3 The most accurate answer here is that in their minds, they consider themselves "apart" from it rather than above it.

[philamena]

Humm that's interesting.... All I can say is this, in the state of VA, they could care less if the baby is born in the hospital or in a home but you can bet your butt, your little one needs a BC. Our children need to have their BC before entering school and even before playing peewee sports.

[barb0301]

Leila,

Thanks for the picture and the link to more. What do you want to bet these deaths have not been reported to the state?

Those 2 particular deaths had been properly reported to the state authorities. They mentioned that way back in the first week when asked why they had cadaver dogs. There is a woman and a child buried there.

[barb0301]

I believe that it is just texas attorny's at least that is what fox and cnn is reporting.

the TX Bar Association went out to all the members, and asked for TX attorneys. It would be anyone that had a license to practice in the state of TX, I assume, that could respond. I know that they are coming from all over here in TX. Have not heard of any out of state lawyers, other than some for FLDS, but they have hired a San Antonio lawyer.

[BarnGoddess]

To respond to your 3 questions,

#!Ideally yes. Births are supposed to be registered. The facts are that in every state there are many babies born at home and in other situations where the birth never gets registered.

#2 As far as SS #s, the last I heard that is a loosely monitored situation. Most people WANT to register for the benefits later, but no one goes after those who for whatever reason haven't registered. Many children enter kindergarten with an SS# recently received.

#3 The most accurate answer here is that in their minds, they consider themselves "apart" from it rather than above it.
Thanks, Glow. I know of an older man who delivered all 11 of his own children at home. Pissed off the local authorities to no end, but registered the births with the county and therefore the state of Colorado immediately. No, he wasn't a doctor, either. SS#'s need a birth certificate, I believe. We've now involved the Feds. And finally, these people may never, ever leave the compound, well, except to get welfare. I wonder if the forge documents.

[Glow]

Here is a picture taken from a helicopter by a photographer who was taking pictures of the YFZ ranch in the very early days of the raid. It's clearly two graves, and I wonder if those deaths have been reported to the state?

Some of the most recent are excellent!
http://www.trenthead.com/?cat=33

Yes Trent's picture are first rate. I am the one who brought his link to the thread originally. He is the photographer for Brooke Adams who writes for http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

the two of them make a great team and the blend compassion with integrity to the actual events. An almost unheard of thing in this particular story.

The graves were well cared for, legit and of no concern to LE. I believe that one was a child who died in a car accident and the other was an elderly woman but don't quote me on that as I am going from memory.

Other photos that were assumed to appear as graves were found to really be dirt mounds that were created to make flower beds in very rocky soil. Much to the relief of the cadaver dog handlers, men in the armored tank, and the LE in bullet proof vests carrying automatic weapons. :rolleyes:

[Leila]

It looks as if there are now two properties in Colorado. Another one came to light the other day.

Crawford, the latest:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3076545

One we knew about from Jon Krakauer:

http://www.childbrides.org/colorado_YFZ_exclusive_by_Krakauer.html

I note the one in Mancos has a familiar set of names - David Steed Allred. The most common names in the FLDS are: Jeffs, Jessop, Barlow, Steed, Johnson, and Allred.

I hope the Colorado authorities investigate both of these compounds and keep a close eye on them.

I wonder if Sarah has been taken to one of these compounds? Flora Jessop, who escaped some years ago and now helps others who want to escape, said she's received calls from a young girl, who says she's 16 and has been abused. Flora has received several calls from her and the girl doesn't know where she is. There's been speculation that the girl Flora is talking to is the same girl that was at the YFZ ranch and called the hot line.

[Leila]

Yes Trent's picture are first rate. I am the one who brought his link to the thread originally. He is the photographer for Brooke Adams who writes for http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

the two of them make a great team and the blend compassion with integrity to the actual events. An almost unheard of thing in this particular story.

The graves were well cared for, legit and of no concern to LE. I believe that one was a child who died in a car accident and the other was an elderly woman but don't quote me on that as I am going from memory.

Other photos that were assumed to appear as graves were found to really be dirt mounds that were created to make flower beds in very rocky soil. Much to the relief of the cadaver dog handlers, men in the armored tank, and the LE in bullet proof vests carrying automatic weapons. :rolleyes:

Thanks Glow...........the photographer, Trent, has some exceptional pictures. :)

[cheko1]

Ladybass, I thought I read somewhere the attorneys were from all over the US. I sure hope you're right though!

Welcome to WS tnajk!

On CNN & Fox today they said lawyers were from all over the state of Texas, most volunteered to represent the kids.

[Glow]

Thanks, Glow. I know of an older man who delivered all 11 of his own children at home. Pissed off the local authorities to no end, but registered the births with the county and therefore the state of Colorado immediately. No, he wasn't a doctor, either. SS#'s need a birth certificate, I believe. We've now involved the Feds. And finally, these people may never, ever leave the compound, well, except to get welfare. I wonder if the forge documents.

I would not put it past them to "alter" documents as they alter so many other things to adjust the world "outside" to their point of view.

I too know people like the man you mentioned. There are many people that skirt along the edges of mainstream doing their own thing. This group just took it too far under a maniac leader. As a result over 400 children are paying the price for when his craziness met the unflexible giant entity known as "CPS"

[Glow]

I note the one in Mancos has a familiar set of names - David Steed Allred. The most common names in the FLDS are: Jeffs, Jessop, Barlow, Steed, Johnson, and Allred.

I hope the Colorado authorities investigate both of these compounds and keep a close eye on them.

I wonder if Sarah has been taken to one of these compounds? Flora Jessop, who escaped some years ago and now helps others who want to escape, said she's received calls from a young girl, who says she's 16 and has been abused. Flora has received several calls from her and the girl doesn't know where she is. There's been speculation that the girl Flora is talking to is the same girl that was at the YFZ ranch and called the hot line.

Leila you could actually be describing the small farm community I live in. Here there are about 3 family names that are everything and unless you are born in OR marry in, then you need to live here a long time to prove yourself. I have been here 25 years and am just now being accepted. I think this girl is perhaps duping everyone. How sad if that is true. It damages Flora's hard work and credibility as well as the Texas LE.

[philamena]

OMG!:mad: WHY do you think this 16 year old girl is dubbing everyone?
Glow, sure would like to know why you are so protective of the FLDS....I've tried to understand your point of view, but honestly, implying the 16 was dubbing people is ludicrous.

[Glow]

OMG!:mad: WHY do you think this 16 year old girl is dubbing everyone?
Glow, sure would like to know why you are so protective of the FLDS....I've tried to understand your point of view, but honestly, implying the 16 was dubbing people is ludicrous.

Hi philamena, first of all I am NOT protective of FLDS. I find them very over the top for me personally.

At the same time, I find the drastic response of Texas LE to be equally lacking in insight. For two weeks I have been following this story and basically watching people bounce around like ping pong balls. There are precious few that are "acting" and many that are"reacting"

The hard truth is 500 years ago people DID marry their daughters off, many times to men old enough to afford them. While that is regretable and goes against all that I wish for women, it is reality. These people are trying to live that out. They are an extremist group that exist on the margins of our modern day society. To rise up agaisnt them and try to extinguish them without first trying to understand them is to lessen everything that made this country a jewel among other countries. We don't need to have a knee jerk reaction here. We need to remember what it is that made America the land of freedom.
Freedom only exists if those you can't stand can live beside those you do.

As far as the girl, there are too many things not adding up. No one can find her. The similar calls keep coming in other states . She is pregnant with recently healing broken ribs....she doesn't speak the "language" of the FLDS in the sense that she mentions Easter (something they'd never celebrate and as a cut off from society group) and wouldn't focus on. Just bears waiting to see IMO

[Ladybass0711]

Hey BG,
Those questions were asked tonight on LKL. The answer is yes, births are supposed to be registered. Deaths are supposed to be registered and children are supposed to be protected from sexual predators and forced marriage is supposen to be illegal. The compound makes its own law.

According to the atty on LKL, the compound keeps people out for a reason...the above are only a few.

Another reporter said that TX LE thought only about 100 people TOTAL lived in the compound. They had no idea there would be over 400 children alone.

Another guest was a female who ran away from one of these compounds years ago. She said that people were beaten nearly to death and some to death.... especially boys for not living by the law. Her brother was tortured. She also said that it's common for men to marry their own daughters.

Glow,
Hey there,
Question, surely you don't want children in that environment do you?


Chances are FBI is already looking into the non regeristing of Birth certificates and the many other things they are looking into.

[Ladybass0711]

Leila you could actually be describing the small farm community I live in. Here there are about 3 family names that are everything and unless you are born in OR marry in, then you need to live here a long time to prove yourself. I have been here 25 years and am just now being accepted. I think this girl is perhaps duping everyone. How sad if that is true. It damages Flora's hard work and credibility as well as the Texas LE.


Glow they beleive that the 16 yer old girl is the same 16 year old girl who is making calls in arizona. The 16 year old keeps calling FLORA so I don't see how it could damage her rep. They believe that when authorities moved in, before they locked everything down, they whisked the 16 year old out and moved her to a different area.

Even if they can't "produce" the 16 year old, texas still has a strong case.

I am also trying to understand your view. I could see if they went into the compound and find no signs of abuse. But they went into the compound and everything matched up to what the 16 year old said and tons more!

Please explain yourself more.

[Ladybass0711]

The hard truth is 500 years ago people DID marry their daughters off, many times to men old enough to afford them. While that is regretable and goes against all that I wish for women, it is reality. These people are trying to live that out. They are an extremist group that exist on the margins of our modern day society. To rise up agaisnt them and try to extinguish them without first trying to understand them is to lessen everything that made this country a jewel among other countries. We don't need to have a knee jerk reaction here. We need to remember what it is that made America the land of freedom.
Freedom only exists if those you can't stand can live beside those you do.



Ok but the thing is you don't normally support pedophilia right? So whats the difference here?? Except that it is in the name of a religion!

Regardless of the religion whether it be Christian, Mormonism, Baptist, the law has to be followed. That is why we have laws, noone is excluded from following the Law. How do we know where they draw the line on actual sex or preparing the girls for sex?? Maybe some evidence will be presented in court that substantiates the allegations of child rape.

[LionRun]

Ok but the thing is you don't normally support pedophilia right? So whats the difference here?? Except that it is in the name of a religion!

Regardless of the religion whether it be Christian, Mormonism, Baptist, the law has to be followed. That is why we have laws, noone is excluded from following the Law. How do we know where they draw the line on actual sex or preparing the girls for sex?? Maybe some evidence will be presented in court that substantiates the allegations of child rape.

Ladybass, I fully agree with you.

And, I think that Jeffs is a pedophile and a control freak who has a charismatic personality. I think that he has manipulated people to get what he wants and has twisted, diseased desires for. I think he did this all in the name of religion. But, it is not a religion--it is a very harmful cult.

Lion

[Ladybass0711]

Dramatic development in polygamits raid
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/p... (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7449106)

[Ladybass0711]

Regardless if this video is true, This still will not do anything to the case. Because, when they went in originally they were looking for a sarah. They had the search warrnet and acted in good faith, to look for sarah and anything that pertained to her. When they found that the other children were being abused, they went and got another search warrent. The authorites went in under "valid suspicion" or "Just cause" They went in originally "in good faith" which means that they did not go in to delbritly harrass these people.. How were they to know that if in fact this story is true, that it was a hoax? How were they to know that???? CPS has a duty to investigate ALL claims of abuse, and thats what they were doing. So this "new development" will not affect the case one bit. Because there was bause going on, therefore the warrents still Stand.

Also how would this woman know that there was a Sarah on the property?? That she had an 8 month old??? And that she was preganant again??? That her husband was Dale barlow???To me it seems to be pretty far fetched to believe that she is connected to the phone call. There is just to much that was confirmed, that the 16 year old did tell them???

[Leila]

Having watched this all unfold before us for the past two weeks, and having watched some of the coverage of Warren Jeffs trial last September, I'm mind-boggled that this group can exist in modern-day society here in America! This is not a benevolent religious group!

We've read the history of the FLDS and read of the practices and beliefs of the FLDS. We've heard the stories of those who've escaped and heard the horror stories of what life was like within the cult. Here's what we know.

1. Children are taught to believe they must obey "the prophet", and they're taught through fear and physical abuse.

2. Girls are raised to believe it's their duty to marry and produce children as soon as they reach puberty. They have no choice, and are groomed to marry an older man.

3. Children are not educated much beyond the elementary grades and have limited and false concepts of the outside world.

4. Male children are used as child labor and when they reach their teens, some are cast out of the FLDS with no skills in the outside world. They are taught that if they are cast out, they will be damned to hell. Many, if not most, are unable to cope with the outside world.

5. Women/wives have limited contact with the outside world, and have been led to believe that people in the outside world are not to be trusted. They have no opportunity to develop independent thought and are strictly controlled.

6. The cult's leader is Warren Jeffs, a very evil man. He not only lowered the age of marriage within the cult to include marriage at puberty for girls, but according to reports has sodomized young boys.

7. Merrill Jessop, is the current co-leader and is purported to be as evil as Warren Jeffs in his abuse of children. The water-boarding of infants is his method of instilling fear of him at an early age so they'd obey him.

8. The women of the FLDS have been brainwashed to obey the orders of their leaders.

We've heard a summary of the first day of court proceedings in which the judge will make a decision on whether or not the state of Texas will retain custody of 419 children. In that summary we've heard about the testimony of a CPS worker who asked the men at the gates of the YFZ ranch where Sarah was. She was told there was no one by the name Sarah there. Yet, when she spoke with children at the school house, she learned there was as many as five girls named Sarah, including one who seemed to match the description of the girl who called authorities.

I believe Sarah exists. She is either among the children who were removed from the YFZ ranch and is too frightened to identify herself, or she was taken away by FLDS members and hidden.

Having watched the interviews with the FLDS women and having watched the tour of Marilyn's home, and considering everything else that is known about the FLDS, I've come to the conclusion that none of the children should be returned to the YFZ ranch.

Even if there hasn't been abuse within a particular household, the potential exists for abuse. The women are so brainwashed into believing they must obey the demands of Warren Jeffs, Merrill Jessop, or any of the other males that make up the leadership, that if one of them demanded that all children must be beaten by their fathers once a week, the women would not only allow it, but come to believe that it was a sacred parental duty.

[Ca-Sun]

Ladybass, I fully agree with you.

And, I think that Jeffs is a pedophile and a control freak who has a charismatic personality. I think that he has manipulated people to get what he wants and has twisted, diseased desires for. I think he did this all in the name of religion. But, it is not a religion--it is a very harmful cult.

LionHi Lion! This is absolutely what I believe. Jeffs is a pedophile and hides behind his 'church' which, in reality, is a dangerous cult.

[LionRun]

Leila, great summation and great post!

Lion

[LionRun]

Hi Lion! This is absolutely what I believe. Jeffs is a pedophile and hides behind his 'church' which, in reality, is a dangerous cult.

Hi Ca-Sun! It is so good to see your here:).

Lion

[Ladybass0711]

I hope to god that this woman(Rozita Swinton" is not found to have made the call that tipped off the raid. But if she is, I still believe the state has a valid case?! With the informant, the pregnant teens, and the other stuff. At least I HOPE they have a valid case, cause if they don't these kids are going to go back to a life of hell!

Whats everyone else think??????

[LionRun]

Dramatic development in polygamits raid
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/p... (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7449106)

Ladybass, I can't watch video because of my very slow dial-up connection. But, I got the gist of it by what you said. I agree that it seems that the searches were legal and should not be thrown out. I am hoping that the video suggesting that there was a hoax turns out to be a hoax itself.

Lion

[mysteriew]

Now that is odd. She was arrested for an incident that supposedly happened in Feb. of this year.

more details here
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=90138

[mollymalone]

Personally I don't think Warren Jeffs is charismatic. He just happened to be Rulon Jeff's son, and thus in a position to usurp his pa's role as leader and use that power to control and intimidate. His favorite hero is hitler, he's a racist and he's a serial abuser. He and his henchmen are also cowards.

[mollymalone]

Now that is odd. She was arrested for an incident that supposedly happened in Feb. of this year.
Who was?

It doesn't matter if the phone call was a hoax, whether the girl exists or not, CPS acted in good faith and once in the ranch they found probable cause and the warrants were granted by the judge, who had to sign them. They didn't just yank the children out of there on a whim. They had to have something to convince the Judge to sign those warrants.

[Ladybass0711]

Who was?

It doesn't matter if the phone call was a hoax, whether the girl exists or not, CPS acted in good faith and once in the ranch they found probably cause and the warrants were granted by the judge, who had to sign them. They didn't just yank the children out of there on a whim. They had to have something to convince the Judge to sign those warrants.

Thats what I was thinking, but then I started to doubt myself. New info on it is suppose to be released tomorow by texas rangers, so maybe they are going to say that there is no connection!??! Lets hope, cause they left colerodo without filing charges.

BTW Molly see the link I posted for info on the arrest.

[Ladybass0711]

Ladybass, I can't watch video because of my very slow dial-up connection. But, I got the gist of it by what you said. I agree that it seems that the searches were legal and should not be thrown out. I am hoping that the video suggesting that there was a hoax turns out to be a hoax itself.

Lion

I sure hope so, but if not I am sure Texas still has a case.

[mollymalone]

Thats what I was thinking, but then I started to doubt myself. New info on it is suppose to be released tomorow by texas rangers, so maybe they are going to say that there is no connection!??! Lets hope, cause they left colerodo without filing charges.

BTW Molly see the link I posted for info on the arrest.
Oh I see.

"The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. The Colorado Springs Police Department says it cannot discuss the Texas case." "The affidavit for the case in Colorado Springs has been sealed, but Jessop says police arrested Swinton for making false calls somewhere in Colorado, claiming to be an abused child."

Whatever the Rangers were in CSprings for may not even be related to her but to something that was found during the search.

[mysteriew]

More details on Swinton.

ABC News reported on its website Thursday night that former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member Flora Jessop, who operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told Texas authorities she had gotten calls from a girl claiming to be an abused member named Sarah.

A girl with that same name made the original calls for help to a San Angelo, Texas, hotline, sparking the raid in which 416 children were taken into protective custody.

Jessop told ABC News that the Texas Rangers directed her to record the calls and the Texas Rangers traced those calls to Colorado Springs.

Though announcing the Rangers' involvement, Colorado Springs Police declined to elaborate on the Texas link, and records into Swinton's Colorado Springs case have been sealed by a judge.

http://origin.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8965600

[Leila]

Regardless if this video is true, This still will not do anything to the case. Because, when they went in originally they were looking for a sarah. They had the search warrnet and acted in good faith, to look for sarah and anything that pertained to her. When they found that the other children were being abused, they went and got another search warrent. The authorites went in under "valid suspicion" or "Just cause" They went in originally "in good faith" which means that they did not go in to delbritly harrass these people.. How were they to know that if in fact this story is true, that it was a hoax? How were they to know that???? CPS has a duty to investigate ALL claims of abuse, and thats what they were doing. So this "new development" will not affect the case one bit. Because there was bause going on, therefore the warrents still Stand.

Also how would this woman know that there was a Sarah on the property?? That she had an 8 month old??? And that she was preganant again??? That her husband was Dale barlow???To me it seems to be pretty far fetched to believe that she is connected to the phone call. There is just to much that was confirmed, that the 16 year old did tell them???

Also........when the women at the YFZ ranch were asked about Sarah, they initially said there was no one there by that name. Then, when they invited the media into the ranch and allowed interviews, there was confirmation from the women that Sarah existed. One woman said, "yes Sarah was there but she got mad and left", and another woman said, "yes, but she didn't like it here and is a traitor!" That last comment was said with a lot of anger.

[mollymalone]

Well at least they're checking it out and following leads.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a local case, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest"

"Colorado Springs Police said Swinton's Wednesday arrest was on local charges involving calls in which she claimed to be an abused child being held in a basement."

If she made the calls to Texas and Arizona, doing it as a prank or whatever, why would she have chosen to pretend to be an FLDS member? I wonder if she has any knowledge of their lifestyle to begin with.

[mollymalone]

Also........when the women at the YFZ ranch were asked about Sarah, they initially said there was no one there by that name. Then, when they invited the media into the ranch and allowed interviews, there was confirmation from the women that Sarah existed. One woman said, "yes Sarah was there but she got mad and left", and another woman said, "yes, but she didn't like it here and is a traitor!" That last comment was said with a lot of anger.Yes, and regardless, if CPS gets an anonymous complaint they have to check it out. Those women did seem rather nasty with that comment.

[mysteriew]

So it is possible that the original caller was real. And it is possible that this Swinton character heard the girl's name and made calls using her name hoping to get the Colorado compound raided.

Hey, someone mentioned the neighbor who was so upset about the FLDS building a fence and blocking their view. What was the neighbor's name?

This Swinton woman seems to really have it out for the Colorado compound if she was arrested for a Feb. incident and if authorities have traced the recent calls to Jessop to this woman's address. That is a 2 month vendetta.

[mollymalone]

So it is possible that the original caller was real. And it is possible that this Swinton character heard the girl's name and made calls using her name hoping to get the Colorado compound raided.

Hey, someone mentioned the neighbor who was so upset about the FLDS building a fence and blocking their view. What was the neighbor's name?You might be on to something here. I don't recall the neighbor's name. Is that compound near CSprings?
Edited to add: if the original caller is legit and when the raid occurred this person saw it on the news and heard about Sarah and what she told CPS she could have started calling then. I'm sure they'll look at the timing of her calls, when they started, who she called and how often.

[Ladybass0711]

Well at least they're checking it out and following leads.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a local case, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest"

"Colorado Springs Police said Swinton's Wednesday arrest was on local charges involving calls in which she claimed to be an abused child being held in a basement."

If she made the calls to Texas and Arizona, doing it as a prank or whatever, why would she have chosen to pretend to be an FLDS member? I wonder if she has any knowledge of their lifestyle to begin with.


She supposedly has an obsession over the FLDS....

[mollymalone]

She supposedly has an obsession over the FLDS....Thanks. I was wondering. Is she in any way connected to the FLDS formerly or just a person who got a burr ...er bee in her bonnet?

[mysteriew]

I have been looking at news articles and trying to find the name of the neighbor who objected about the privacy fence because it blocked his view. So far I haven't found a name.

[Ladybass0711]

Night all

[Ladybass0711]

Starting a new thread here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2145454#post2145454). Less confusing for tomorow I think.

Hopefully a mod can lock this one please.