Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #3

[Ladybass0711]

Ok starting a new thread. A continuation from http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2135655&posted=1#post2135655

[Ladybass0711]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlylurking http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2135637#post2135637)
Thanks for the link guys -- biased toward LDS, yes. But, as per the snip from wikepedia below, it is owned by LDS not FLDS as noted in the post above. I believe that is a significant difference -JMO.

The Deseret Morning News is a newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper) published in Salt Lake City, Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City%2C_Utah), and is Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah)'s oldest continually published daily newspaper. It has the second largest daily circulation in the state behind The Salt Lake Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune). The Deseret Morning News is owned by Deseret News Publishing Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_News_Publishing_Company), a subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Management_Corporation), which is a for-profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit) business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) (widely known as the Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon) or LDS Church).

Reposting this here so it gets seen


Ok but they are the only paper allowed in the compound, they are the only paper that has gotten NEGATIVE phone calls towards the state, They are the only one who is reporting all the NEGATIVE things first and foremost before they even consider reporting the good of the raid. In my opinion, they are trying to make the state look bad, and the FDLS, members the good people. If you read all the comments on the stories, I am sure you will see the same way. Its alla botu violatring the constitutional rights, and texas should be sued, and on and on and on. There are very few comments Supporting Texas.

Also I have wrote several comments supporting Texas. And only 3 oif the 20 comments I have written have been published. More comments that are negative to the state are the ones that are getting published. And this is not just happening to me, There have been several people who have complained that there comments in support of the state are not getting published, but all the others bashing the state are.

[Floh]

Watching, waiting, hoping the children have been rescued from a lifetime of purgatory within that compound. :blowkiss:

[mostlylurking]

Ladybass --
Not questioning the biased reporting, just the ownership. Having that as a misstatement can rile up a buch of folks who don't need further "riling".

Given all that you have shared of your life, I hope you do get to go down there to counter some of the brainwashing.

[Ladybass0711]

Ok starting a new thread. A continuation from http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2135655&posted=1#post2135655

Ladybass --
Not questioning the biased reporting, just the ownership. Having that as a misstatement can rile up a buch of folks who don't need further "riling".

Given all that you have shared of your life, I hope you do get to go down there to counter some of the brainwashing.


I will be going down after the 17th once they know how many kids theya re working with. Will update that situation as I knwo more.

[Taximom]

What scares me is that these young children have been sexualized at such an early age, and now some will be in foster homes. We've all heard the horror stories about those situations. I fear there will be some sexually abused even in the foster environment, especially if they think what's being done is acceptable behavior by grown men.

There needs to be some very firm instructions to these children that what they've gone through is not right.

[Floh]

I will be going down after the 17th once they know how many kids theya re working with. Will update that situation as I knwo more.

I wish all good things for you and what you will do.

[Ladybass0711]

Thank you

[Leila]

I feel we really DO need some clarification here. It would appear, per the Wikepedia information on Deseret News, that the newspaper is owned by the LDS church through subsidiary companies. It's the oldest newspaper in the state and is considered conservative in it's reporting.

The Deseret News has NO affiliation with the FLDS.

It would appear that in reading the comments from readers of the newspaper, that there are FLDS supporters/sympathizers among the newspaper's readership.

[Floh]

Loads of pictures as a refresher of the compound kindly provided by a poster's pointer in the last thread:

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2262

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2263

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2259

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2258

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2256

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2255

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2252

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2251

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2250

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2266

[Ladybass0711]

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=89949


MONTEZUMA COUNTY - Law enforcement in southern Colorado are closely watching a known polygamist religious group in the town of Mancos.

[Floh]

Excellent points, mysteriew!

In the desertnews article

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695270102,00.html

Kids getting sick. Again the chicken pox issue, incubation period would have been prior to the children being taken into custody. And yes, kids placed close together in an envirment will pass minor illnesses around. Most mothers who have multiple kids, kids in day care or going to schools know that.

Crying children. Anybody ever have a kid go to camp? Or going to stay with grandparents? Sometimes they do get homesick at night. And yes, one crying kid will often being a round of crying in the other children- many parents note that when they have kids in day care. Not peculiar to these kids.

The "Dorothy" that talks seems resentful that she has to comfort kids. If she doesn't like it, she can go home.

Workers walk the shelter at night. I have worked in a hospital and in emergency shelters. Yes, sometimes you have to respond to needs at night. Sometimes you have persons who are wakeful. Sometimes you need to check on ones that may appear to be becoming ill. Had they not done that the FLDS would call them neglectful.

Children in close contact, causing delays in putting the kids down at night. Yes, probably true.

Most of the complaints the FLDS are making would be true of almost every abused child who is removed from their parents. Except in this case, some of the parents were allowed to go with them. Instead of counting their blessings about that, they are complaining.

[Floh]

Dunno, but it seems like admin want the last thread to continue.

[Ladybass0711]

or there is no admin on right now

[golfmom]

It doesn't look like anyone's on right now. That last thread is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy past the point of needing to be locked.

[Floh]

I feel we really DO need some clarification here. It would appear, per the Wikepedia information on Deseret News, that the newspaper is owned by the LDS church through subsidiary companies. It's the oldest newspaper in the state and is considered conservative in it's reporting.

The Deseret News has NO affiliation with the FLDS.

It would appear that in reading the comments from readers of the newspaper, that there are FLDS supporters/sympathizers among the newspaper's readership.

It really is a head scratcher, isn't it? i don't know the truth of the matter, but relatives do run deep.

[mysteriew]

Floh, thanks for bringing that over. I was writing a second one while you all were opening the new thread and I wasn't aware of it.

My point is that alone, the articles are heartrending. But when you look at each point, their complaints are mostly either baseless or a condition of their own making.

[Floh]

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=89949


MONTEZUMA COUNTY - Law enforcement in southern Colorado are closely watching a known polygamist religious group in the town of Mancos.

And so they should. i believe all states which think they may have a branch of the FLDS or other polygamous groups within are examining closely.

[Floh]

Floh, thanks for bringing that over. I was writing a second one while you all were opening the new thread and I wasn't aware of it.

My point is that alone, the articles are heartrending. But when you look at each point, their complaints are mostly either baseless or a condition of their own making.

The last post you made is greatly worthy of you bringing over, IMO. :blowkiss:

[mollymalone]

LinasK

Quote:
Originally Posted by mollymalone
http://www.childbrides.org/Memo_In_S..._11_6_2007.pdf

I mentioned yesterday that Warren Jeffs was still in control of the Texas group through Merrill Jessop and this is the court document I referred to. While behind bars he was and probably still is calling the shots IMO. Even though he made the statements that he was no longer the prophet those he talked to thought he was testing them. He also decreed that two families were to switch places.

I only read the first 5 pages, but he ordered them to destroy their "dictations from him" and was going to give his wife Naomi away to another after she was re-baptized!
__________________
Not just her but all of his wives. Merrill Jessop is thought to have 20 wives and in an article I posted yesterday the journalist called Warren Jeffs the man with eighty wives. Wasn't Naomi the one who was in the car when he was arrested?

[Ladybass0711]

And so they should. i believe all states which think they may have a branch of the FLDS or other polygamous groups within are examining closely.


Since the FBI is involved, and it has since been declared a FEDERAL CRIME SCENE I beleive that now that the FBI is involved they will be forcing the other states to start the investigation into there compounds!

[golfmom]

Whew! New thread Dance!!!!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[Floh]

LinasK

Quote:
Originally Posted by mollymalone
http://www.childbrides.org/Memo_In_S..._11_6_2007.pdf

I mentioned yesterday that Warren Jeffs was still in control of the Texas group through Merrill Jessop and this is the court document I referred to. While behind bars he was and probably still is calling the shots IMO. Even though he made the statements that he was no longer the prophet those he talked to thought he was testing them. He also decreed that two families were to switch places.

I only read the first 5 pages, but he ordered them to destroy their "dictations from him" and was going to give his wife Naomi away to another after she was re-baptized!
__________________
Not just her but all of his wives. Merrill Jessop is thought to have 20 wives and in an article I posted yesterday the journalist called Warren Jeffs the man with eighty wives. Wasn't Naomi the one who was in the car when he was arrested?

I have no doubt he's calling the shots. i wish they'd bung him in solitary for the duration. :furious: :furious: :furious:

[Ladybass0711]

LMAO are we confused yet?!?! Thanks Animal!

[Floh]

Whew! New thread Dance!!!!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Thanks Animal04216!

and really goodnight all. :)

[Ladybass0711]

Thanks Animal04216!

and really goodnight all. :)


Night Floh!

[Pepper]

Loads of pictures as a refresher of the compound kindly provided by a poster's pointer in the last thread:

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2262

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2263

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2259

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2258

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2256

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2255

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2252

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2251

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2250

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2266

Thanks for the links. Maybe he should name it "One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest."

[mollymalone]

I have no doubt he's calling the shots. i wish they'd bung him in solitary for the duration. :furious: :furious: :furious:

He's got a hearing coming up on the 24th in Kingman, AZ. His trial could take 6-8 months and among the various charges are those of incest. His followers stood in respect as he came into the courtoom. I'm sure they're monitoring his visitors and his phone calls and so there is a lot of doublespeak and coded talk going on.

Edited to add: Since he's got Federal charges pending, I bet the FBI was interested! He could possibly face even more charges by the time he goes to trial for those.

[Ladybass0711]

That number is fluid, however, Vick said. Since the raid, another child has been born, one turned 18, and a woman from the compound reportedly was in labor Sunday, he said.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/14/polygamist.retreat/index.html

[Ladybass0711]

The move comes shortly after a local judge indicated she would not make a decision this week on whether to keep the 416 children in state custody or return them to their parents in what is shaping up to be the largest child custody case in state history. Lawyers from the state bar association are planning an "unprecedented" volunteer effort to provide lawyers for each of the children in time for a hearing on Thursday where the state will have to justify its decision to remove the children.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4646965&page=1


Does this mean that we will know NOTHING this Thursday?!?!

[mollymalone]

The move comes shortly after a local judge indicated she would not make a decision this week on whether to keep the 416 children in state custody or return them to their parents in what is shaping up to be the largest child custody case in state history. Lawyers from the state bar association are planning an "unprecedented" volunteer effort to provide lawyers for each of the children in time for a hearing on Thursday where the state will have to justify its decision to remove the children.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4646965&page=1


Does this mean that we will know NOTHING this Thursday?!?!Probably not.

"in time for a hearing on Thursday where the state will have to justify its decision to remove the children

"Walther said one of her priorities was to determine how many girls taken from the remote Yearning for Zion Ranch
were underage mothers."

I suspect they're going to working out the logistics of how many will need representation, whether for example if
there is a group of siblings whether one lawyer will represent all of those siblings or each will be assigned their
own lawyer. Then there's the timimg issue regarding the hearings and when they'll take place etc.

Edited to add: there's also the question of which child belongs to whom to clear up as well. I don't know whether
it would be possible for the Judge to make a decision on sending any child back when it's not clear which person
is their parent!

[Ladybass0711]

List of items seized

http://www.childbrides.org/ItemsSeizedAtYFZ.pdf

[mollymalone]

Blackmore runs the Canadian branch of the FLDS and has moved some of his members to Idaho. Blackmore has denounced Warren Jeffs as a "false prophet."

http://www.childbrides.org/news_books_CH_polygs_secrets_laid_bare_Daphnes_boo k.html

"At the heart of this book is the battle for supremacy between the so-called "prophets" -- Winston Blackmore and Warren Jeffs."

"Winston Blackmore was once a follower of Jeffs and a close confident. Blackmore currently has around 22 wives (at last count) and has allegedly fathered more than 100 children and allegedly impregnated 15 year olds."

[golfmom]

WHOOOOOAAAAAAA! Did anyone catch the 18 medical receipts for SEVERAL Sarah Jessups?

[Truly]

List of items seized

http://www.childbrides.org/ItemsSeizedAtYFZ.pdf

Thanks for the link Ladybass. Quick heads-up: ^It is an 88 page PDF^

Also, I would like to again add to this thread the document which Leila kindly provided, listing the children and their possible parents.
There is very limited info on surnames and birthdates for the kids. Here it is:
http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/LegalNotices.html


There were several girls named Sarah named in that link as well, golfmom! There were also about a dozen boys named 'Rulon' who had no last name. I wonder if they were going to wait until the boys grew up to pick the 'one true Rulon', before getting rid of the others? Hmmm...

[Ladybass0711]

Thanks for the link Ladybass. Quick heads-up: ^It is an 88 page PDF^

88 PAGES OF SOLID EVIDENCE from what I can see

BTW Nancy Grace is covering this now

[legallee]

Adult women in sect forced back at Texas ranch

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Texas officials who took 416 children from a polygamist retreat into state custody sent many of their mothers away Monday, as a judge and lawyers struggled with a legal and logistical morass in one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.

Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
The women were given a choice: Return to the Eldorado ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect, or go to another safe location. Some women chose the latter, Gonzales said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AhQc1jzHA9FH0PrcjlZz4ktH2o cA


(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_202)

[Ladybass0711]

Adult women in sect forced back at Texas ranch

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Texas officials who took 416 children from a polygamist retreat into state custody sent many of their mothers away Monday, as a judge and lawyers struggled with a legal and logistical morass in one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.

Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
The women were given a choice: Return to the Eldorado ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect, or go to another safe location. Some women chose the latter, Gonzales said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AhQc1jzHA9FH0PrcjlZz4ktH2o cA


(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_202)

I wonder if CPS told them they had to leave and goi back to the ranch. I beleive this to be the case!

[mollymalone]

WHOOOOOAAAAAAA! Did anyone catch the 18 medical receipts for SEVERAL Sarah Jessups?
YES.

FIle, correspondence with Warren Jeffs, prison mail. Mail from houses in hiding.

I betcha they're going to be looking very hard at the money aspect in those files, where the monies are coming from ie. welfare etc. and there will be some prosecutions for the abuse of the system.

[Ladybass0711]

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/14/flds-women-removed-for-san-angelo-shelters/#comments

FLDS women removed for San Angelo shelters

[Ladybass0711]

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-14_news_pm.asp

News Brief: Monday, April 14, 2008

Sad to say it, but I beleive this is the best move!

[SuziQ]

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/14/flds-women-removed-for-san-angelo-shelters/#comments

FLDS women removed for San Angelo shelters

Not to start a fight or an argument and no I don't agree with the comments at that paper. Nor am I against what the authorities did today. Just wanted to point out the paper is a Texas paper and the comments read pretty much the same all over the U.S. So these types of comments are not just a Utah phenomenon.

[Truly]

88 PAGES OF SOLID EVIDENCE from what I can see

:clap: :clap: ABSOLUTELY!!!:clap: :clap:

(p.s. the heads-up was just for dial-up :) )

[mollymalone]

Ladybass, here's another article. Some of those women who returned to the compound might be ones who had originally decided to accompany those women/children going with CPS in order to intimidate, control, or coach them.
Some women might have changed their minds on leaving or were (by cell phone) encouraged to return. Those going to women's shelters who did not return seem to be making their bid for freedom from the sect.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/17679389.html

Meanwhile, Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, says a ranch resident told him some of the women had returned to the compound.

Child Protective services says other women chose to go to women's shelters.

The agency says women with children four or under were allowed
to remain with their kids for now.

CPS officials say it is not normal to allow a parent to accompany a child or to even know the child's exact location once a child has been removed because of abuse or neglect.

[SuziQ]

CPS officials say it is not normal to allow a parent to accompany a child or to even know the child's exact location once a child has been removed because of abuse or neglect.

Obviously there is a good reason for that practice. Witness tampering has to run rampant in child abuse cases.

[Ladybass0711]

Not to start a fight or an argument and no I don't agree with the comments at that paper. Nor am I against what the authorities did today. Just wanted to point out the paper is a Texas paper and the comments read pretty much the same all over the U.S. So these types of comments are not just a Utah phenomenon.


I understadn Suzi. Just saying that it is now a known fact that the LDS ownes the deseret paper.

Welcome back by the way!

[mollymalone]

Obviously there is a good reason for that practice. Witness tampering has to run rampant in child abuse cases.
And in this case the possibilities of that are almost a certainty!!

[Truly]

SAN ANGELO, Texas -

The women were given a choice: Return to the Eldorado ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect, or go to another safe location. Some women chose the latter, Gonzales said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AhQc1jzHA9FH0PrcjlZz4ktH2o cA


(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_202)

Finally! The women have a choice! It's about dang time. Think about it; the women in this cult have not had the opportunity to learn about the last several decades of our history re civil rights/womens rights, etc. They have been brainwashed into thinking that they were the property of the old perverts who sexually assaulted and basically owned them. I mean, even Shawn Hornbeck was not so isolated in his captivity that he was unaware of the world progressing around him. To all of the young girls now opening their eyes...You are not the property of anyone. Your existence is so much more worthwhile than the criminals who have held you hostage for all of these years!

[SuziQ]

I understadn Suzi. Just saying that it is now a known fact that the LDS ownes the deseret paper.

Welcome back by the way!

You do realize the FLDS and the LDS church are not affiliated right?

[biggirl]

Does anyone have a count on how many women went to shelters and not back to the compound. That gives me hope that they know there is a better life. I would only hope it was a majority and not the minority.

[Ladybass0711]

You do realize the FLDS and the LDS church are not affiliated right?

Yep I sure do Suzi.

[SewingDeb]

I can understand the genealogy information, birth certificates, pedigree info, computers, pictures, medical and school records but can someone explain why so much white clothing was taken? Do the men and women both wear white when they marry?

[Ladybass0711]

Does anyone have a count on how many women went to shelters and not back to the compound. That gives me hope that they know there is a better life. I would only hope it was a majority and not the minority.

Well 416 kids and 139 woman were removed. 555 in toltal 555-139 = 416

Nancy grace is reporting that the woman were not remeoved, that since they could not communicate with the men at the compound they CHOSE to leave.

[SuziQ]

Yep I sure do Suzi.

Okie dokie then.

[biggirl]

Well 416 kids and 139 woman were removed. 555 in toltal 555-139 = 416

Nancy grace is reporting that the woman were not remeoved, that since they could not communicate with the men at the compound they CHOSE to leave.

I just wondered how many women went back and how many did the alternative and went to shelters.

[mollymalone]

Does anyone have a count on how many women went to shelters and not back to the compound. That gives me hope that they know there is a better life. I would only hope it was a majority and not the minority.
The CPS rep said they didn't have the numbers to release yet but they will release that soon.

This is an upcoming show - Carolyln Jessop and Flora Jessop and Michelle Benward (she runs the safe house for Lost boys) will be on.

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080414114137tsop.nb/newsblaze/NEWSWIRE/NewsBlaze-Wire.html
WE TV Examines 'Polygamy Cult' in 'Secret Lives of Women'
Airing April 29 At 10pm Et/9c
One-Hour Episode Features In-Depth Interviews with Former Members of FDLS

"Exclusive footage includes a tour of a hidden baby graveyard, where it is speculated that children who are victims of "blood atonement" (the FLDS term for paying for sins with blood) are brought to rest."

[SuziQ]

"Exclusive footage includes a tour of a hidden baby graveyard, where it is speculated that children who are victims of "blood atonement" (the FLDS term for paying for sins with blood) are brought to rest."

Scary, creepy and horrifying. I wish I could watch that special.

ETA: Not because it's Scary etc! But because it looks very informative.

[Truly]

Ladybass, here's another article. Some of those women who returned to the compound might be ones who had originally decided to accompany those women/children going with CPS in order to intimidate, control, or coach them.
Some women might have changed their minds on leaving or were (by cell phone) encouraged to return. Those going to women's shelters who did not return seem to be making their bid for freedom from the sect.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/17679389.html



Making their bid for freedom! YESSSSS!!! :clap: :clap:

I couldn't care less about the old goats who have worked as 'ENFORCERS' for all these years. They and the old men who rape their own kids can just rot in prison. The old men and the old women in this cult can just die out, for all I care. The old farts can die alone in prison, while their kids and grandkids can choose to breathe the fresh air of freedom in the world outside of their parents' twisted cult.

[mollymalone]

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_8920658

" As buses rolled out early this afternoon, the passengers smiled and waved at bystanders. One girl shook her head "no."

"The children are in state custody, but the 139 women who have been staying with them are there at their own choosing."

[biggirl]

The CPS rep said they didn't have the numbers to release yet but they will release that soon.

This is an upcoming show - Carolyln Jessop and Flora Jessop and Michelle Benward (she runs the safe house for Lost boys) will be on.

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080414114137tsop.nb/newsblaze/NEWSWIRE/NewsBlaze-Wire.html
WE TV Examines 'Polygamy Cult' in 'Secret Lives of Women'
Airing April 29 At 10pm Et/9c
One-Hour Episode Features In-Depth Interviews with Former Members of FDLS

"Exclusive footage includes a tour of a hidden baby graveyard, where it is speculated that children who are victims of "blood atonement" (the FLDS term for paying for sins with blood) are brought to rest."
Thank you! That is what I wanted to know. Just how many took advantage of getting away from the lifestyle forever.

[mollymalone]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/12/wpolygamy112.xml

Michael Piccarreta told the Arizona Republic newspaper: "I smelled a rat from the beginning. I think the Texas authorities need to make a careful analysis of whether they have been part of a ruse."

But Flora Jessop, who left the FLDS church and now leads the Child Protection Project for escapees from the sect said that she submitted information to Arizona authorities after receiving calls from a pregnant teenager in Colorado City.

"I have been speaking to a little girl who has my guts in knots," she said. "It is a very credible, very believable, very abused little girl."

She said of Piccarreta: "That's what good attorneys do: They try to discredit the victim to free the predators."

[LinasK]

Finally! The women have a choice! It's about dang time. Think about it; the women in this cult have not had the opportunity to learn about the last several decades of our history re civil rights/womens rights, etc. They have been brainwashed into thinking that they were the property of the old perverts who sexually assaulted and basically owned them. I mean, even Shawn Hornbeck was not so isolated in his captivity that he was unaware of the world progressing around him. To all of the young girls now opening their eyes...You are not the property of anyone. Your existence is so much more worthwhile than the criminals who have held you hostage for all of these years!

I'm so happy for these women!:clap::clap::clap: Finally a chance at a normal life free of abuse if they can get deprogrammed. I hope they are not messed up for life!

[biggirl]

I'm so happy for these women!:clap::clap::clap: Finally a chance at a normal life free of abuse if they can get deprogrammed. I hope they are not messed up for life!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:Yes, what you said. I would love to see the younger women, older too if they are genuine, get away from these dirty old men.

[Leila]

He's got a hearing coming up on the 24th in Kingman, AZ. His trial could take 6-8 months and among the various charges are those of incest. His followers stood in respect as he came into the courtoom. I'm sure they're monitoring his visitors and his phone calls and so there is a lot of doublespeak and coded talk going on.

Edited to add: Since he's got Federal charges pending, I bet the FBI was interested! He could possibly face even more charges by the time he goes to trial for those.

I didn't realize Jeffs trial was this month! With all that's going on in Texas, the media will probably be putting more focus on his trial than they might have before.

[mollymalone]

Thank you! That is what I wanted to know. Just how many took advantage of getting away from the lifestyle forever. Out of that 139 who voluntarily accompanied the others, I'm interested in learning how many went to shelters in their bid for freedom, and how many returned to the fold. I'm hoping that a majority of the women went to shelters. Perhaps we'll learn that later.

[biggirl]

Out of that 139 who voluntarily accompanied the others, I'm interested in learning how many went to shelters in their bid for freedom, and how many returned to the fold. I'm hoping that a majority of the women went to shelters. Perhaps we'll learn that later.

Amen to that. Wouldn't it be wonderful to learn that the majority had gone to shelters?

[mollymalone]

I didn't realize Jeffs trial was this month! With all that's going on in Texas, the media will probably be putting more focus on his trial than they might have before.I think so too, however there's been a report by a journalist that they weren't allowed to photograph him even outside the court. Since there are some of his followers going to the court, they're erring on the side of caution. An officer said there were concerns about "the possibility of a rescue/escape" and that's why they were clamping down on things.

:waitasec:

[mollymalone]

Amen to that. Wouldn't it be wonderful to learn that the majority had gone to shelters?Is there a crossing your fingers icon?

[mollymalone]

Scary, creepy and horrifying. I wish I could watch that special.

ETA: Not because it's Scary etc! But because it looks very informative.
Me too. I think I have that channel? What I'd like to see is Banking on Heaven and to read several of the former members books.

[biggirl]

Is there a crossing your fingers icon?

We need one. I would volunteer to go and counsel these women. Isn't one of our posters going to go and do that? A very rewarding thing to do. Blessings to her/him.

[SuziQ]

Me too. I think I have that channel? What I'd like to see is Banking on Heaven and to read several of the former members books.

Same here, my wish list for Half.com has grown alot this week.

[mollymalone]

We need one. I would volunteer to go and counsel these women. Isn't one of our posters going to go and do that? A very rewarding thing to do. Blessings to her/him.I believe Ladybass is.

[biggirl]

I believe Ladybass is.

Then I say "Bless Ladybass".:blowkiss::blowkiss:

[Ladybass0711]

Then I say "Bless Ladybass".:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Thank you! These children are going to need all the support they can get!

[Ladybass0711]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_o... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_o...)

The sheer numbers left the judge perplexed as she considered suggestions from the lawyers for how to handle Thursday's hearing.
"It would seem inefficient to have a witness testify 416 times," the judge offered. "If I gave everybody five minutes, that would be 70 hours."

I do NOT envy this judge!!!!

[Leila]

88 PAGES OF SOLID EVIDENCE from what I can see

BTW Nancy Grace is covering this now

I only got to see a little bit of Nancy Grace today, as I was preparing dinner. But I will watch the repeat broadcast at 10:00pm. CNN's 360 has been coving this every night since the beginning, so check for that in your time zone.

[biggirl]

Thank you! These children are going to need all the support they can get!
How do you even prepare for the enormous task ahead. It would be so interesting if you were able to post during that time, not specifics just scenarios. This is fascinating how these cult leaders can have so much power over so many. You are to be commended for doing what you are going to do.:clap::clap:

[mollymalone]

http://www.watchman.org/old_wf/assets/files/flds_profile.pdf

Oh geez. Just like other "leaders" Warren Jeffs predicted in 2002, a "lifting up" in which only the devout would rise to heaven. This "rapture" was supposed to happen at several other dates that Jeff decreed it would occur. Naturally it hasn't happened yet. His father Rulon Jeffs had 75 wives.

"Members are taught that they can't get to heaven without the Prophet's help. Members believe that the prophet has direct communication with God and they treat him like God.

Jeffs was preaching blood atonement. "estimated by several different sources at about 10 pecent of the men, who would be willing to kill to protect the prophet and the religion. The dotrin of blood atonement -where it is the rigteous person's obligation to kill a sinner to gain salvation."

Individual blood atonement- teach that for certain sins one's own blood must be shed unto death in order to gain forgiveness and eternal llife."

[Leila]

Adult women in sect forced back at Texas ranch

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Texas officials who took 416 children from a polygamist retreat into state custody sent many of their mothers away Monday, as a judge and lawyers struggled with a legal and logistical morass in one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.

Of the 139 women who voluntarily left the compound with their children since an April 3 raid, only those with children 4 or younger were allowed to continue staying with them, said Marissa Gonzales, spokewoman for the state Children's Protective Services agency. She did not know how many women stayed.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
The women were given a choice: Return to the Eldorado ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect, or go to another safe location. Some women chose the latter, Gonzales said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AhQc1jzHA9FH0PrcjlZz4ktH2o cA


(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_202)

This is the best thing that could happen. I really believe some of the older women in the group were influencing the younger women, advising them not to give the authorities their names or information.

[LinasK]

Ummm Glow, in answer to your post on the previous thread saying that Biblical Jews, specifically Abraham, used to be polygamous-from Molly's Watchman link:

Like early 19th Century Mormonism, the FLDS will often try to support the practice
of polygamy by citing biblical examples such as Abraham, King David, and Solomon.
Abraham did not actually practice polygamy. He never married any other woman until
after the death of his wife, Sarah. He did have an illegitimate son by Hagar, Sarah’s
handmaiden, but that was never endorsed by God. While the Bible honestly reports the
practice of polygamy by some Old Testament patriarchs, the Bible never endorses
polygamy and certainly never commands it. In fact, David and Solomon were in
violation of God’s commandment for all future kings of Israel: “I will set a king over
me…. Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away.”25

[biggirl]

This is the best thing that could happen. I really believe some of the older women in the group were influencing the younger women, advising them not to give the authorities their names or information.

I totally agree with you, some of these women did not go with the authorities strictly out of concern for the "children", but to keep the "children" in line. I have thought that since day one. Maybe with them out of the picture the children will be able to open up and not feel threatened.

[Ladybass0711]

How do you even prepare for the enormous task ahead. It would be so interesting if you were able to post during that time, not specifics just scenarios. This is fascinating how these cult leaders can have so much power over so many. You are to be commended for doing what you are going to do.:clap::clap:


Quite frankly I am not sure how I will prepare. Me and my husband are considering just picking up from PA and moving to TX.

It will depend on if we do move, if I will be able to make posts.


Also keep in mind folks this is a precadent. Once this flys I am sure there will be more of these cases developing! Once other states plus FBI see that texas is successful at this, I am very sure this will sweep across the nation, world, etc!

[Ladybass0711]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3080462

FLDS women separated from their children as legal battle heats up

[biggirl]

Quite frankly I am not sure how I will prepare. Me and my husband are considering just picking up from PA and moving to TX.

It will depend on if we do move, if I will be able to make posts.


Also keep in mind folks this is a precadent. Once this flys I am sure there will be more of these cases developing! Once other states plus FBI see that texas is successful at this, I am very sure this will sweep across the nation, world, etc!

You are correct about that. I cannot believe the FBI will let this continue in other states. If it is illegal in one then it cannot be legal in another. You will have your hands full and you will have many supporters cheering you on.
:clap:

[mollymalone]

Like father, like son and other controlling ........ fill in the blank... leaders of the FLDS.http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/FLDSChurch.htm

Reportedly “on October 25, 1987, Rulon Jeffs asked his followers to donate more money for the new building. He told them that for every $1,000 turned in for the new church house, that contributor would be guaranteed a ticket to Jackson County, Missouri (where the Second Coming was to occur) and title to one lot there. This promise was believed by many and they went to great sacrifice to contribute."

This apparent lapse was based, at least in part, upon the feeling that Rulon Jeffs would never die. He had told his followers on several occasions that he would live long enough to witness the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and that he would then personally turn his priesthood keys over to the Savior.

Leroy Johnson’s death surprised many FLDS members. He “had told people that he was going to live until Christ’s return at His Second Coming, that he would be here to turn the ‘Keys of Priesthood back to Him.’ He had set the date of this event to be in the year 1998,” but was apparently mistaken.

"President Warren Jeffs’ exact plans for the colony (at Eldorado) became a little clearer with the dawning of 2005. Reports suggested that he had predicted the end of the world on January first, but when it failed to materialize, his followers were directed to build a temple. Between New Year Day and April fifth, construction proceeded at a frantic pace, sometimes late into the night.


"As April sixth arrived, rumors circulated in Texas and in Colorado City[40] that Jeffs had again prophesied the apocalyptic end of the world."

[mollymalone]

I totally agree with you, some of these women did not go with the authorities strictly out of concern for the "children", but to keep the "children" in line. I have thought that since day one. Maybe with them out of the picture the children will be able to open up and not feel threatened.I've thought that too. Without access to the children or young women there is no reason to stay and that's why they left.

[Leila]

Ladybass, here's another article. Some of those women who returned to the compound might be ones who had originally decided to accompany those women/children going with CPS in order to intimidate, control, or coach them.
Some women might have changed their minds on leaving or were (by cell phone) encouraged to return. Those going to women's shelters who did not return seem to be making their bid for freedom from the sect.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/17679389.html

Meanwhile, Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, says a ranch resident told him some of the women had returned to the compound.

Child Protective services says other women chose to go to women's shelters.

The agency says women with children four or under were allowed
to remain with their kids for now.

CPS officials say it is not normal to allow a parent to accompany a child or to even know the child's exact location once a child has been removed because of abuse or neglect.

I really believe that now that the women have been separated from the children, there's a real chance to make progress. Without the women who might be telling the children not to talk, there's a good chance some of the children will open up.

Also, the women who didn't want to return to the compound and were sent to shelters, might be a good source of information.

[Ladybass0711]

I really believe that now that the women have been separated from the children, there's a real chance to make progress. Without the women who might be telling the children not to talk, there's a good chance some of the children will open up.

Also, the women who didn't want to return to the compound and were sent to shelters, might be a good source of information.


I firmly agree!!

[Ladybass0711]

Anderson cooper is covering this.


NEW DETAILS!!!!!!!!!!!! BBS

[mollymalone]

I really believe that now that the women have been separated from the children, there's a real chance to make progress. Without the women who might be telling the children not to talk, there's a good chance some of the children will open up.

Also, the women who didn't want to return to the compound and were sent to shelters, might be a good source of information.True. In one of the articles when this all started said that 18 young girls were removed and put into foster care then the reports kept coming about how many were being removed over that day and the next. I wonder if they were kept with this group or if they really were immediately placed?

Jeffs said they couldn't use the word fun. They weren't to laugh, he ordered all the dogs shot. He and his followers and predecessors really have ruined a lot of people's lives and stunted their emotional growth. The ones who might have a good chance on the outside are the younger ones and even some of the teenagers, if they respond to the counseling. I wish you luck!!

[Ladybass0711]

New details about the phone call. CNN has been allowed into the compound!

They are saying they are being persecuted for there religion! Denying that they are sexually abusing there children Any marrige that is done is done when the girl is 18, 19, 20...

They beeliev the call is a hoax, They say that it was an outsider. CNN reporter is saying they are doing Damage control

will report more when I can

[mollymalone]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy752.html

We can't conclude by virtue of his resignation as president of the corporation sole what he intends with regards to his religious office as prophet," Parker said. It is unclear whether Jeffs continues as the faith's prophet.

In January, just before attempting suicide, Jeffs told family and key sect members he had never been a prophet and named William E. Jessop as the faith's rightful leader.

He apparently later backed away from those statements."

[Ladybass0711]

Lawyers are saying that the woman were not coached.

State is trying to round up attornys for children

They beleive that the mothers rights were violated. and that they did not have to remove all 400 kids from this one phone call.

[mollymalone]

"The character Roman Grant, played by Harry Dean Stanton in the HBO series Big Love, is based loosely on Rulon Jeffs, and the character Alby Grant, played by Matt Ross, is similarly inspired by Warren Jeffs."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy722.html

[LinasK]

From Molly's link:
Former FLDS members report being taught that "the Holocaust never existed and that the government fabricated the story of man landing on the moon in order to hide tax money" (Page 7).:doh::doh::doh::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[mollymalone]

Lawyers are saying that the woman were not coached.

State is trying to round up attornys for children

They beleive that the mothers rights were violated. and that they did not have to remove all 400 kids from this one phone call.Who's saying this? FLDS lawyers?

[sherri79]

Lawyers are saying that the woman were not coached.

State is trying to round up attornys for children

They beleive that the mothers rights were violated. and that they did not have to remove all 400 kids from this one phone call.hmmm

well i am so not shocked. the lawyer says the women are not coached so lets just pack up and go home.:rolleyes: nothing to see here. how much do they pay this amazing legal mind?

and they did not remove every child due to 1 call. the investigation only began with 1 call. it was the interviews with the children that started the mass removals. does this lawyer really think people will over look that?

[sherri79]

From Molly's link:
Former FLDS members report being taught that "the Holocaust never existed and that the government fabricated the story of man landing on the moon in order to hide tax money" (Page 7).:doh::doh::doh::banghead::banghead::banghead: proof of what inbreeding can do to a IQ

[Leila]

Wow.........CNN!

CNN's reporter, David Mattingly, is on right now. He said that when the women returned to the YFZ, the gates were thrown open and all the reporters invited in and allowed to interview the women. Right now CNN is showing a FLDS attorney speaking with the women who returned.

David Mattingly, reporting from inside on compound, says the FLDS says the 16-year-old girl is a hoax and the raid was illegal. They will be arguing that their religious rights have been violated.

Anderson CooperTalking now to Kathleen - surname not given. She was one of those who in Fort Concho. Anderson just asked about those women who have fled the FLDS and told about abuse. She refuses to address his questions, saying that doesn't relate to the children being returned. Anderson just said her statement sounds like she's rehearsed with others what to say. She's now comparing Fort Concho to WWII and the Jews in consentration camps. She says she's 42, a college graduate, and knows her history. She sounds very strange.

Anderson Cooper is now talking with Carolyn Jessop who knows Kathleen and says she's one of Merrill Jessop's wives and the one that almost prevented her from escaping. She says that Kathleen lied to Anderson about the age of her daughter (Kathleen said her daughter is 18), and Carolyn says the daughter is younger and has a 10-month baby.

Clarification............Anderson Cooper told Kathleen that her view of the Jews and WWII differs from his (Kathleen doesn't believe the Holacaust).

[mollymalone]

From Molly's link:
Former FLDS members report being taught that "the Holocaust never existed and that the government fabricated the story of man landing on the moon in order to hide tax money" (Page 7).:doh::doh::doh::banghead::banghead::banghead:Th at's the tip of it, on one of the links I've posted there are downloads or articles where one can read his racist diatribes against African Americans and others.

One woman who left the flds said she trembled as she reached to touch an African American child because of his teachings. But once she held that baby she couldn't understand how anyone could preach the things he does.

[sherri79]

Wow.........CNN!

CNN's reporter, David Mattingly, is on right now. He said that when the women returned to the YFZ, the gates were thrown open and all the reporters invited in and allowed to interview the women. Right now CNN is showing a FLDS attorney speaking with the women who returned.

David Mattingly, reporting from inside on compound, says the FLDS says the 16-year-old girl is a hoax and the raid was illegal. They will be arguing that their religious rights have been violated.

Anderson CooperTalking now to Kathleen - surname not given. She was one of those who in Fort Concho. Anderson just asked about those women who have fled the FLDS and told about abuse. She refuses to address his questions, saying that doesn't relate to the children being returned. Anderson just said her statement sounds like she's rehearsed with others what to say. She's now comparing Fort Concho to WWII and the Jews in consentration camps. She says she's 42, a college graduate, and knows her history. She sounds very strange.

Anderson Cooper is now talking with Carolyn Jessop who knows Kathleen and says she's one of Merrill Jessop's wives and the one that almost prevented her from escaping. She says that Kathleen lied to Anderson about the age of her daughter (Kathleen said her daughter is 18), and Carolyn says the daughter is younger and has a 10-month baby. well they did say the people at the compound were picked because they are the most loyal.

[LinasK]

Anderson CooperTalking now to Kathleen - surname not given. She was one of those who in Fort Concho. Anderson just asked about those women who have fled the FLDS and told about abuse. She refuses to address his questions, saying that doesn't relate to the children being returned. Anderson just said her statement sounds like she's rehearsed with others what to say. She's now comparing Fort Concho to WWII and the Jews in consentration camps. She says she's 42, a college graduate, and knows her history.



Wait a minute, how does she know about Jews in concentration camps if the Holocaust never existed?????:confused:

Of course she can't answer a spontaneous question without rehearsed answers. Notice they picked an older woman to speak?

[mollymalone]

Wow.........CNN!

CNN's reporter, David Mattingly, is on right now. He said that when the women returned to the YFZ, the gates were thrown open and all the reporters invited in and allowed to interview the women. Right now CNN is showing a FLDS attorney speaking with the women who returned.

David Mattingly, reporting from inside on compound, says the FLDS says the 16-year-old girl is a hoax and the raid was illegal. They will be arguing that their religious rights have been violated.

Anderson CooperTalking now to Kathleen - surname not given. She was one of those who in Fort Concho. Anderson just asked about those women who have fled the FLDS and told about abuse. She refuses to address his questions, saying that doesn't relate to the children being returned. Anderson just said her statement sounds like she's rehearsed with others what to say. She's now comparing Fort Concho to WWII and the Jews in consentration camps. She says she's 42, a college graduate, and knows her history. She sounds very strange.

Anderson Cooper is now talking with Carolyn Jessop who knows Kathleen and says she's one of Merrill Jessop's wives and the one that almost prevented her from escaping. She says that Kathleen lied to Anderson about the age of her daughter (Kathleen said her daughter is 18), and Carolyn says the daughter is younger and has a 10-month baby. I"m glad he's talking to Carolyn Jessop.

It's a pattern, when there is trouble, the men send the women out to do the pr.. more sympathetic ya know.

[pixies]

I am a firm believer in freedom of religion and I honestly do not care if people believe in having more than one spouse and having a house full of well adjusted (and not abused) kids!
I firmly believe that the government overstepped their bounds and killed all those people in Waco and honestly, I am still pissed about Waco.

But this "cult" is seriously dangerous. They bred women just for children that they could molest. They also stole money from the government in taxes and using welfare and food stamps to support their "ministry".
These men and WOMEN should be sent to jail for the rest of their lives.

[mollymalone]

Wait a minute, how does she know about Jews in concentration camps if the Holocaust never existed?????:confused:

Of course she can't answer a spontaneous question without rehearsed answers. Notice they picked an older woman to speak?
Yes and all of the women seem to say the same thing. Like stepford wives.

[mollymalone]

I am a firm believer in freedom of religion and I honestly do not care if people believe in having more than one spouse and having a house full of well adjusted (and not abused) kids!
I firmly believe that the government overstepped their bounds and killed all those people in Waco and honestly, I am still pissed about Waco.

But this "cult" is seriously dangerous. They bred women just for children that they could molest. They also stole money from the government in taxes and using welfare and food stamps to support their "ministry".
These men and WOMEN should be sent to jail for the rest of their lives.
Frankly if more than one consenting adult wishes to live together in that manner it's not my biz except when it comes to the fraud and the abuse. Waco was a disaster and should have been handled differently. It didn't and TX is stuck with the legacy of it. It all comes down to who's in charge and who screws up.

However in this case I agree with you, they are dangerous. They've been deemed the most restrictive out of all the flds groups.

[Leila]

CNN now showing Colorado City and many of them going to a meeting place to learn what happen in Texas.

A reporter in Arizona is saying that a girl has been calling Flora Jessop and investigators now believe that the girl who's been calling saying she in Colorado City, Arizona and the one who allegedly called from the YFZ ranch in Texas may be the same girl, and she may be making the calls from hundreds of miles away.

[LinasK]

But this "cult" is seriously dangerous. They bred women just for children that they could molest. They also stole money from the government in taxes and using welfare and food stamps to support their "ministry".


Their term for it, "Bleeding the Beast".

[mollymalone]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy676.html

"She began working in an FLDS-owned factory full of other youths who openly questioned their religion. It was a common destination for FLDS kids kicked out of high school."

"she recalls a moment during Jeffs' first court appearance that showed he's not an entirely broken man. "He had the downcast look that he would have when he was very disappointed in somebody, right before he'd start a beating or whatever or give a scolding. ... And then he looked up at the camera and gave this smirk, and that was the smirk that he would give before he damned you straight to hell or gave you the beating of your life or altered a rule that would absolutely devastate your household," Nicholson said."


Edited to add: Jeff's mother and other Flds members see him weekly and attend his hearings.
From all I've been reading I believe he's still calling the shots in the Texas compound.

[LinasK]

CNN now showing Colorado City and many of them going to a meeting place to learn what happen in Texas.

A reporter in Arizona is saying that a girl has been calling Flora Jessop and investigators now believe that the girl who's been calling saying she in Colorado City, Arizona and the one who allegedly called from the YFZ ranch in Texas may be the same girl, and she may be making the calls from hundreds of miles away.

Thank Goodness for this girl! She is a true heroine! For generations of her women and children, though they don't realize it yet!

[Ladybass0711]

Please forgive typose trying to keep up.



CAPS---- ANDERSON COOPER
no caps Kathleen, member of the sect

I have 5 kids and one grand child
ages 18, 16, 15, 11, 9

Grandchild age 10 months old.

WHY NOW ARE YOU TALKING?

Becasue the state of texas have confiscated our children on an alleged allegation, that has no facts, and now they are holding our children, and we want them back.

WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO COME TALK TO THE MEDIA?

It was ours, because the nation has been so prejiduce against us tthat they ahve a false image of what we are.

WHAT ARE YOU?? WHY DO YOU LIVE IN THIS COMMUNITY??

because thats where I choose to live, its the nicest community in america. For instance my children had never seena fire arm in there life, until they ahd a fire arm put in there face and told to load on a bus. And were told you will never see your father or mother ever again if you don't get on the bus.

HOW MANY WIVES DOES YOUR HUSBAND HAVE?

I won't answer that?

WHY NOT??

I want the children back, This ahs to do with me and my children that question is not pertinent to the nation , knowing we need our children back,

I HAVE TALKED TO OTHER WOMAN WHO HAVE TOLD ME THEY HAD TO FLEE DURING THE NIGHT, SOMETIMES WITHOUT THERE CHILDREN, THEY SAY THERE ARE ABUSES THAT TAKE PLACE IN THIS COMMUNITY.

i am not going to report on there story. My story is we have had our children taken fromus on an allegation that has no foundation. Now we will do whatever it takes to get these children reuninted with there mothers.

BUT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WATCHING THIS AND MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE HEARD OF THIS STORY FOR YEARS AND ARE LEGITIMALTY WORRIED ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN OR SOME OF THE OTHER CHILDREN THERE WHO SAY HAVE TO GET MARRIEDAT A YOUNG AGE, OR FORCED TO MARRY SOMEONE WHO THEY DON'T HAVE FEELINGS FOR???

Thats why they chose to leave, Causethey had a fear, and I have no fear.

THERE ARE ALSO MANY YOUNG MEN THEY CALL THEM THE LOST BOYS, WHO HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE OLDERMEN WANTED THE YOUNGER WOMAN, AND THE YOUNG ONES HAVE BEEN TOSSED OUT FROM THERE FAMILY HAVE YOU SEEN THAT????

that does not have anything to do with the message that the state of texas has taken a way a whole community of children, and withheld there parents from them on an allegation from outside that allegation did not come from within the YFZ ranch.

SO CLEARLY YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOTU ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, YOU JUST WANT THE MESSAGE OUT ABOTU YOUR CHILDREN???

i do, i want the children returned to there parents.

I DON'T WANT TO SOUND CYNICAL, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE REHERSED WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING

well sir what would you say, if your children had been robbed from you, kidanapped?? What woluld you say??

I DON'T KNOW

well put yourself in oiur condition. tahst why we are all saying the same story because we have ll had our children taken

DO YOU HAVE AN ATTORNY YET? DO YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE SYSTEM??

My hope is some hope that the united states constitution can have affect, that we have freedom of religion. sir I just........

HAVE YOU AHD ANY CONTACT WITH YOUR KIDS

Not for a couple of hours since we have been taken from them I want you to understand that we have been put in a compound the concho forts over there brick walls 170 woman and children a building that was 100 feet by 40 feet with 2 bathrooms

ok do you understand that so we need the public to know that an injustice has been done against us. In the land of the free home of the brave we are being treated like the Jews were when they were being escorted to the Germen natzi camps

YOUR SAYING YOU ARE BEING TREATED LIKE THE PEOPLE BEING SENT OT CONCENTRATION CAMPS??

yes we have been treated taht way, in a country that professess to be free. In the land of the free and the home of the brave.....we have been persecuted for our religion

JUST FOR ACCURACY, DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOWWHAT HAPPEND TO THE JEWS DURING WORLD WAR 2?? IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THE SAME, JUST FATUALLY SPEAKING.

i do, I am 42 years old I am very studied in hoistory, I have a college degree,

DO YOU BELEIVE THE STATE.. WHY DO YOU BELEIVE THE STAE DID THIS? DO YOU BELEIVE THE STAE WAS WORRIED ABOTU THE CHILDREN.

I do not beleive they were worried abotu the children, I beleive they are impredjiduce, against us. from peopel that chose to leave that were disatisfied with how we chose to live, who storred up the public opinion against our lifestle, just because of there emotions, not how i felt, i may feel totally different, just like you feel totally different.

WELL KATHLEEN I DO APPRECIATE YOU TALKING WITH ME,

thank you sir.

[mollymalone]

Thanks Ladybass!

[barb0301]

From the DFPS (CPS) website: "With the judge’s permission DFPS moved about two dozen teenage boys to a facility outside the area. All the rest of the children are at the coliseum."

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-14_news_pm.asp

[Truly]

{Well, Waahhh, boohoohoo, Ms. Kathleen-No-Name. (Can I call you Ms. without offending your brutal leader??)

reporter: Ms. Kathleen-No-Name, why did you hand your children over to a cult when you knew that this cult was just a pack of nasty old men who wanted to rape your kids?

reporter: Kathleen's husband is beating the **** out of her and his other dozen wives at the moment, and she is unresponsive. Thankfully, the kids are safe.}

[Leila]

Thank you Ladybass! That interview was incredible, and I couldn't type that fast!

My impression was that Kathleen was told what to say and had rehearsed what she was going to say. I can't believe she's a college graduate.

[Ladybass0711]

CAPS ANDERSON COOPER
Non caps Carolyn Jessop-- escaped

CAROLYN ITS HARD TO BELEIVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT THERE ARE COMPOUNDS LIKE THIS. WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEAR THAT WOMAN TALKING???

anderson you understand I recognized her voice, That is Kathleen

YOU KNOW HER?

that is my formers sisters wive. She is married to Merril, She also the one that told on me when i was trying to escape. So in the land of the free, home of the brave, so why is it that she felt so urgent to go to merril in the middle of the night, I nearly didn't make it out because she made taht phone call.

So she beleives in freedom, so where is my rights as a mother, to flee if i beleive we are at risk?? Where are my rights, because she didn't allow me any rights now she is demanding her rights... and its obvious that her daughter is a 10 month old baby, who by the way is not 18+, she is barely 18. She was probably inpregnanted when she was 16, that is in my opinion is abuse, and that by the way is the very reason I was fleeing in the night.

I agree with what most of these woman are saying, They were married at 18, some were married at 20,22 but those woamn are also at an age of 32 and above.

Warren reset the marrying age from years ago, he first reset it to 22, 20, down to 18. then after a few years he reset it to 16. Around the time I escaped out with my family, my daughter was within months of turning 14, and i knew he was resetting that age to 14. So what happened in the past is done under another prophet. It is done very differently now. The state went in and found very clear felony charges of child abuse and they ahve acted on that. And I mean if Kathleen wants to express that her rights are being taken, I feel that she deprived me of my rights five years agoo.

YOU KNOW ANYBODY IS SYMPATHETICOF A MOTHER WHO IS SEPERATED FROM HER KIDS, ITS A BIZARRE SITUAITON AND A DIFFICULT SITUATION, FRANKLY I DUNNO WHAT TO MAKE OF IT, BUT I CAN IMAGINE SOME PEOPLE LISTENING TO THIS AND THINKING RUBY RIDGE, WACO, THIS IS TEH GOVERNMENT GOING IN AGAINST INDIVIDUALS, AGAINSTA RELIGIOUS GROUP. FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT ARE THE CRIME OR CRIMES THAT HAVE BEEN OR ARE OCCURING IN THESE KIND OF COMPOUNDS???

the crimes that first of all that if you do need help you can't get it, because when i was in colorado city which was a far more open community, i couldn't get it, i couldn't get authorites to come in and get me out i had to make it out on my own. And this compound is far more locked down then that. and you know it is just difficult, because I can appreciate Kathleens feelings are hurt, emotions are high because her children have been taken from her but she knew full well that when she made that call to Merill that if he would have caught me, he would have restrained me and not allowed me to leave and take my children. She understands and her and i both know this, that Merill would have taken my children from me and i would not have been able to see tthem again.

SO WAIT SHE WAS A SISTER WIFE, SO SHE WAS MARRIED TO THE SAME MAN YOU WERE MARRIED TO??

yes she was is 5th wife I was his 4th

HOW MANY WIVES DOES THIS MAN MEL HAVE

you know anderson I don't know. I know he had 7 while i was there and I am aware of 8 that he married after i left there.

SO DO YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR HER? FOR THESE OTHER MOTHERS?

yes I do I mean my message to Kathleen is if she feels so strongly that she has rights, why does she feel it nessasary to violate my rights when i chose to leave this society?? and prevent me from protecting my children in what i felt was best for them?? She may beleve this lifestyle is right for her children

WHAT DO YOU BELEIVE SHOULD HAPPEN NOW??? ITS A DIFFICULT SITUATION, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF KIDS IN STATE CONTROL RIGHT NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN??

I think that every case needs to be heard, that every case need sto go through a court. And if there are crimes being committed against children then a judge is going to have to rule in the best interest of the child. And this by the way is not about religious persecusion, nor has it been form the begining, nor is it about polygamny. The officers did not go in there because they had a call that there was polygamny going on in the compound. They had a cry for help from a child and they went into investigate that cry for help and when they got in whether they found that child or not that is why they went in, and they did find other children that had been abused, and either way haveing sex with a 16 year old is a felony. The found felony cases of child abuse.

CAROLYN WE APPRECITE YOU COMING ON. ITS ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK TO YOU.

[Ladybass0711]

Coming up. New details on what sparked the investigation in texas. The phone call. Details coming up that may shake up the case.

[Ladybass0711]

This sect is based in Colorado

Authorites are still looking for the 16 yeaor girl in texas. But at the same time authorites are looking for a 16 year old girl in Arizona, that says she is here in arizona has been abused several times.

But some investiagtors are now saying that the Texas girl and the arizona girl may be the same girl. And they beleive she is far away from either state right now.

[Ladybass0711]

CAPS ANDERSON
Non caps Gary


Private detective

Private meeting was called in arizona.

CNN ihas learned that arizona is investiagting calls from a 16 year old in arizona.


my understanding that the phone call didn't take place in arizona, MULTIPLE calls have come from another location 100 miles away.

The missing texas girl is now out of texas, They beleive that it is the same girl (HOLY CRAP)

Girl is calling Flora Jessop, they want to know why the girl doesn't know or isn't telling the location of where she is.


JUST TO BE CLEAR ON THIS BREAKING NEWS.

YOUR NOW HEARING THAT THIS CALL NEVER CAME FROM THE TEXAS COMPOUND, NOR DID IT COME FROM COLERADO CITY?? AND THAT I TMAY BE THE SAME PERSON CALLING??

the think it may be the same person calling.. They think that the call came from the compound, but the minute the authoriteis showed up they rushed her out of state somewhere else. as far as the calls from arizon, the girl was here at one time,the girl might be confused, upset, etc....

alot of intimitadting going on. enforcers in large vans, holding walkie talkied, trapped our car, and followed us for miles and miles! People are trying to get us out of there

THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES ARE MEMBERS OF WARREN JEFFS CHURCH.

[Ladybass0711]

taking a break my hands hurt!

[mollymalone]

From the DFPS (CPS) website: "With the judge’s permission DFPS moved about two dozen teenage boys to a facility outside the area. All the rest of the children are at the coliseum."

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-14_news_pm.asp Thanks! From that link there was this about the separation of the women who returned to the compound.

"Adult women with very young children were provided the opportunity to remain at the shelter at this time. The other women were given the choice to return to the Eldorado compound or to a safe place. While DFPS understands mothers want to be with their children, normal protocol is to separate children from their parents during investigations into abuse and neglect.

This decision was not made by CPS alone. DFPS sought counsel from the attorneys of the children, mental health professionals and others. The judge concurred that a partial separation is in the best interest of the children at this time.

[Moe]

Why did they move the boys and why do I think the teenage boys are going to be the bigger story in the end? I'm scared!

[barb0301]

Why did they move the boys and why do I think the teenage boys are going to be the bigger story in the end? I'm scared!

That shocked me, and scared me too. There could me numerous reasons, many of which scare me too much to think about.

[Truly]

Coming up. New details on what sparked the investigation in texas. The phone call. Details coming up that may shake up the case.


How did the fundamentalist branch of the latter day saints get the millions of dollars to build that posh child abuse resort??

Follow the money. There is more to this story than meets the eye.

[SuziQ]

Why did they move the boys and why do I think the teenage boys are going to be the bigger story in the end? I'm scared!

And why are there only a couple of dozen of them?

[sherri79]

Why did they move the boys and why do I think the teenage boys are going to be the bigger story in the end? I'm scared!
maybe because teen girls have a value to these people. the value is as a sex slave but they do want the teen girls.

teen boys not only have no value but are a threat to the 50 year old perverts.

if you would rape a 13 year old girl what would you do to the 17yr old brother that tried to stand up to you?

[barb0301]

And why are there only a couple of dozen of them?

Do you think since the Eldorado compound folks were Jeff's "cream of the crop" that he chose to send a limited number of young boys, or do you think that there are already a number of "lost boys" wandering around somewhere, banished from the TX compound? It's only been 4 years since the Eldorado compound has been in existence.

Very scary thought, either way.

[Moe]

maybe because teen girls have a value to these people. the value is as a sex slave but they do want the teen girls.

teen boys not only have no value but are a threat to the 50 year old perverts.

if you would rape a 13 year old girl what would you do to the 17yr old brother that tried to stand up to you?
That my friend is what scares me, those poor boys.

[Leila]

Last night we discussed an article that appeared in the Deseret News in which women who were removed from the YFZ ranch and were at Fort Concho, did a telephone interview via cells phones with reporters who were at the YFZ ranch. In the article, the women went by first names, declining to state their surnames. I felt last night and still feel that the telephone interview was orchestrated by the FLDS men back at the YFZ ranch. Last night I posted a message, and here's part of that message:

I'm having some real reservations about this article. The women mentioned in the article, who gave their first names only, are Dorothy, Paula. Kathleen, and Barbara. I checked these first names against the listed names of parents on the subpoena published in the Eldorado Success. There is no Dorothy on that list. Of the other names, the only woman named Paula and Barbara are Paula and Barbara Jessop. There is a Kathleen Steed and a Cathleen Jessop.

Tonight, Anderson Cooper interviewed Kathleen, who didn't want her surname used. Later, Anderson Cooper interviewed Carylyn Jessop, who escaped from the FLDS five years ago. Carolyn recognized Katheen and identified her as a sister-wife of Merrill Jessop.

All of the women who participated in that cell phone interview from Fort Concho, were Jessops..............Paula, Barbara, and Cathleen/Kathleen Jessop. The Dorothy who also participated in the cell phone interview wasn't on the list of parents on the subpoena. I suspect she may have been one of the older woman - a grandmother - with no children at Fort Concho.

[mollymalone]

And why are there only a couple of dozen of them?When the raids occurred some of the male children could have been at one of the other places in AZ or Utah or at work in one of the FLDS owned businesses outside the compound. That might be why there were so few young men/boys removed.

I suspect they're being separated from the females for the same reason the older women were given a choice to go home or go to a shelter. The boys can be talked to without interference from some of those women. AND, the boys who might try to intimidate, scare etc.. some of the younger females won't be able to.

If these young males are all wishing to stay out of the compound they're going to need counseling and the investigators are going to have to be able to talk to them without them being intimidated.

[Moe]

Kathleen's interview was one of the strangest I've ever seen. She never looked into the camera, and all of her answers seemed rehearsed, Cooper even called her on that. We are most likely going to see quite a few of these in the coming days, and I'll bet we learn nothing from them, just like tonight.

[mollymalone]

Leila I think you are right about that!

[Ladybass0711]

So if they can't locate the 16 year old from texas, and she is still being abused then i really beleive that she can be considered a federal witness, and colerado, and arizona, may be next, in trying to locate this poor child who is being shuffled away. Feds can search the other two compounds on those grounds, to locate the 16 year old! No other reason may be needed!

[Truly]

How did the fundamentalist branch of the latter day saints get the millions of dollars to build that posh child abuse resort??

Follow the money. There is more to this story than meets the eye.


The kids were nothing but *sex toys* to these men.

Forget *food stamps*.

Where did these men get the Big Money???

[mollymalone]

So if they can't locate the 16 year old from texas, and she is still being abused then i really beleive that she can be considered a federal witness, and colerado, and arizona, may be next, in trying to locate this poor child who is being shuffled away. Feds can search the other two compounds on those grounds, to locate the 16 year old! No other reason may be needed!The FLDS has branches in Idaho, British Columbia, Canada, Nevada, AZ and Utah and Colorado as well as Mexico.

[Ladybass0711]

The FLDS has branches in Idaho, British Columbia, Canada, Nevada, AZ and Utah as well as Mexico.


Well then IMO and from talking with another person who is familiar with this law. They can all be search/investigated/ on the grounds that this 16 year old is now a federal witness. and they need to ensure her safety.

A weapons room was found on the texas ranch with automatic guns and grenades!

[Moe]

A weapons room? Oh my!

[mollymalone]

The kids were nothing but *sex toys* to these men.

Forget *food stamps*.

Where did these men get the Big Money???
Some of their companies bid on govt. contracts and some of the families, I believe the Kingston family that's in the flds owns Waste Management? The salaries of the members is paid over to the head of the flds and they are expected to tithe on top of that.

The men have a legal wife and then all the others are considered single. They apply for welfare, wic etc. and it all gets turned over to guess who. The FLDS pulled all of their members who were teachers out of a school yet retained control over the board of the school. They siphoned money that went into the school into their own coffers. They were the only school that had a private jet to fly board members around.

Things like that are only the tip of the iceberg.

[mollymalone]

Well then IMO and from talking with another person who is familiar with this law. They can all be search/investigated/ on the grounds that this 16 year old is now a federal witness. and they need to ensure her safety.

A weapons room was found on the texas ranch with automatic guns and grenades!Wisan said there was rumored to be a weapons cache near Colorada City.

The FLDS members are trying to say that the reported 16 year old is nothing but a hoax since two locations received the same type of calls.

[mollymalone]

Larry King has a reporter who went into the compound at Eldorado.

EDITED TO ADD: Journalist says that the women told them that no one there was ever forced into marriage. That it's rare for a 16 year old to get married. etc..

[Moe]

They wish it was a hoax, LE better find that girl!

[Ladybass0711]

They wish it was a hoax, LE better find that girl!


DAMN right they better, cause if they don't soon they will be finding a body!

[BhamMama]

We need one. I would volunteer to go and counsel these women. Isn't one of our posters going to go and do that? A very rewarding thing to do. Blessings to her/him.


I'm sure the State will have licensed pros to help with that. It's going to take a very long time of counseling to even get to the point where they have a real understanding of what has happened to them. Years and years.

[Truly]

Some of their companies bid on govt. contracts and some of the families, I believe the Kingston family that's in the flds owns Waste Management? The salaries of the members is paid over to the head of the flds and they are expected to tithe on top of that.

The men have a legal wife and then all the others are considered single. They apply for welfare, wic etc. and it all gets turned over to guess who. The FLDS pulled all of their members who were teachers out of a school yet retained control over the board of the school. They siphoned money that went into the school into their own coffers. They were the only school that had a private jet to fly board members around.

Things like that are only the tip of the iceberg.

No kidding, sweetmollymalone!

:furious: :furious: :furious: I, personally, am prepared to melt this ice-cold sect of child molesters all the way to hell.:furious: :furious: :furious:

Along with whichever Congressman or Senator issued them their no-bid defense contracts.

Wow. Waste Management? Concrete? Military Contracts? Underage Sex Slaves?

Mormon Mafia!

[mollymalone]

On the money trail, I read that the members are encouraged to take out huge loans and told they won't have to pay it back because on x date they would ascend. When that didn't happen they were stuck with the loan and any penalties for not paying. SO they'd up and move to another compound.
People would buy property and when Jeffs took it away from them the FLDS would sell off the business or property and pocket the money.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/National%20News/Sect-gets-millions-in-U-S--loans--contracts

"business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts.

The ability of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, to operate and grow is largely dependent on huge contributions from its members and revenue from the businesses they control, according to a former accountant for the church, and government officials in Utah and Arizona, where the sect is primarily based."


"John Nielsen, who worked for the company when it was Western Precision in Hildale, said in a 2005 affidavit he and other FLDS members were made to work for little or no wages as the company was bringing in lucrative government contracts and other work.

At the same time, $50,000 to $100,000 in company profits were going each month to FLDS "and/or" Jeffs, Nielsen said in the affidavit, filed as part of a civil lawsuit.

He said he and other sect members thought their working for free or for extremely low wages would bring them redemption."
------------------------------------------------
For their trouble Jeffs ordered Neilson out of the community and reassigned his family.

[Leila]

So if they can't locate the 16 year old from texas, and she is still being abused then i really beleive that she can be considered a federal witness, and colerado, and arizona, may be next, in trying to locate this poor child who is being shuffled away. Feds can search the other two compounds on those grounds, to locate the 16 year old! No other reason may be needed!

I wonder if the 16-year-girl escaped, and is now is some sort of "safe house" and is not giving her location because she very afraid of being returned to the FLDS. She may not be with any authorities, because they would be contacting the Texas authorities, but may have found some sort of safe refuge.

[mollymalone]

No kidding, sweetmollymalone!

:furious: :furious: :furious: I, personally, am prepared to melt this ice-cold sect of child molesters all the way to hell.:furious: :furious: :furious:

Along with whichever Congressman or Senator issued them their no-bid defense contracts.

Wow. Waste Management? Concrete? Military Contracts? Underage Sex Slaves?

Mormon Mafia! The Govt. awards bids based on specific criteria, and religion is not considered.

"A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business, according to online databases that track federal government appropriations."




"U.S. Rep. Kay Granger, the Fort Worth Republican who sits on the House Appropriations Committee that deals with issues of defense, military and homeland security, said she is surprised the federal government is doing business with a group accused of mistreating women and children. "It makes me very uneasy," Granger said. "It needs to be investigated without a doubt."

To begin with, added, federal authorities should look into NewEra's financial records."

[Ladybass0711]

I wonder if the 16-year-girl escaped, and is now is some sort of "safe house" and is not giving her location because she very afraid of being returned to the FLDS. She may not be with any authorities, because they would be contacting the Texas authorities, but may have found some sort of safe refuge.

Could be the case, but flora jessops would be the one to contact cause she has escaped.

Regardless until she is found the authorities should still consider her in danger, and do whatever it takes to locate her.

[mollymalone]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21152/flds-64

"They work as government defense contractors, dairy farmers, engineers, construction contractors, log-cabin homebuilders and suppliers of lanyards, the cords used on eyeglasses or name tags.

In addition, JNJ Engineering, a company owned and operated by FLDS leaders, has made millions of dollars in Las Vegas, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported in September.

The company won $11.3 million in contract work from the Las Vegas Valley Water District; all but one of the project workers came from the twin towns of Hildale and Colorado City, Ariz., where most of the sect’s 10,000 members live."

[mollymalone]

Freedom of Information Act documents obtained by NBC News show that the Pentagon awarded contracts of at least $1.5 million to two Utah-based companies owned and operated by senior officials of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS. The contracts, issued from 1998 to 2006, were for aircraft parts and other military equipment.

The Pentagon contracts were awarded to Utah Tool & Die and Western Precision, Inc., which operated in Utah. The president of Western Precision was Wendell Nielsen, described in multiple media accounts as a senior official in the FLDS religious sect, whose West Texas compound was raided by police earlier this month as part of a wide-ranging child-abuse investigation. Neilsen disappeared with church leader Warren Jeffs after Jeffs was put on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list in 2003. Jeffs, the sect's "prophet," was convicted last year on two counts of rape as an accomplice.

The records show that Western Precision continued to receive government contracts even after the well-publicized manhunt. And when Jeffs was captured in 2006, he was riding in an SUV registered to John C. Wayman, another Western Precision executive..."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/13/...

[BhamMama]

proof of what inbreeding can do to a IQ

I know tons of folks who don't believe either one happened, many of them fundamentalist Christians. They also taught their kids that dinos didn't roam the earth because it's not mentioned in the Bible. It's not inbreeding that caused them to not believe any of that, just stupidity. No one group has a lasso on that bull.

I think the key word in both of these examples is the word fundamentalist. Though I don't profess to be a religious scholar I do know that men teach the Bible and sometimes it's not what's in the pages that are being taught, rather it's a mindset.

Not a for the FLDS btw, I just don't subscribe to a general wide brushing of one set of people having the stupid gene.

[mollymalone]

http://www.childbrides.org/nevada_KVBC_tax_dollars_funding_Warren.html

A number of construction companies affiliated with a controversial polygamous sect operate in southern Nevada. None of them wants to talk about who they are and where their money goes"

From government construction sites like one at the Las Vegas Springs Preserve to one at the Clark County Wetlands Park, a river is running. But it's not water that flows from these places. It's money, taxpayers' money.

And a whole lot of it is going to JNJ Engineering. The company has nearly $10.5 million in government contracts with the City, County and Water District. Spokesperson J.C. Davis says $9.6 million of that is with the Water District alone. "They keep getting contracts because they keep bidding on contracts."

JNJ is run by its namesake, Jacob Nathan Jessop. His cousin Flora Jessop spoke to us from Phoenix. "He's one of the guys that runs the construction companies and makes the money for the FLDS, which enables Warren Jeffs to continue his flight from law enforcement."

[mollymalone]

Part of the money trail - FRAUD
http://www.childbrides.org/nevada_KVBC_tax_dollars_funding_Warren.html

Nevada law requires government to award its contracts to the lowest responsive and responsible bidder. JNJ often undercuts the next lowest bidder by tens or hundreds of thousands, and their bids are also often hundreds of thousands less than the government engineer's own estimate. Flora Jessop says there's a reason for that.

"A lot of what happens in these corporations is they use their children as the labor force and so they don't have to pay wages. And each one of those boys, while collecting a paycheck, never see that paycheck. That money is sent directly to the prophet."

"I used to work for construction companies, too, and we'd get paid one check, and then we'd turn another check over to them after we'd sign it back over to them," said Isaac. "So, their records showed like it should be even though that's not how it was."

Paragon Contractors Corporation, another Hildale, Utah FLDS construction company, was fined more than $10,000 by the U.S. Department of Labor for employing minors aged 12, 13 and 15, and failing to pay them for their work.

[Truly]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21152/flds-64

"They work as government defense contractors, dairy farmers, engineers, construction contractors, log-cabin homebuilders and suppliers of lanyards, the cords used on eyeglasses or name tags.

In addition, JNJ Engineering, a company owned and operated by FLDS leaders, has made millions of dollars in Las Vegas, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported in September.

The company won $11.3 million in contract work from the Las Vegas Valley Water District; all but one of the project workers came from the twin towns of Hildale and Colorado City, Ariz., where most of the sect’s 10,000 members live."

Thank you for the info, Molly. There is definitely something bigger going on here. Child Sexual Assualt is very low on the scale of what is important to these men.

[Glow]

Ummm Glow, in answer to your post on the previous thread saying that Biblical Jews, specifically Abraham, used to be polygamous-from Molly's Watchman link:

Like early 19th Century Mormonism, the FLDS will often try to support the practice
of polygamy by citing biblical examples such as Abraham, King David, and Solomon.
Abraham did not actually practice polygamy. He never married any other woman until
after the death of his wife, Sarah. He did have an illegitimate son by Hagar, Sarah’s
handmaiden, but that was never endorsed by God. While the Bible honestly reports the
practice of polygamy by some Old Testament patriarchs, the Bible never endorses
polygamy and certainly never commands it. In fact, David and Solomon were in
violation of God’s commandment for all future kings of Israel: “I will set a king over
me…. Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away.”25


Hi LinasK,

wow. I didn't think anyone even read what I post here as I am obviously the "odd one out" so to speak. I've noticed that most of the time if my posts are read then anything that is valid gets snipped and what I am handed back is that "one" sentence in a my carefully worded post that can be twisted or spun outright. You didn't do that. I am impressed as well as appreciative.

as to your question... You are right. Abraham did not have another "legal" wife until Sarah died. While Sarah was alive Abraham was given a promise by God. The promise was he would make him a mighty nation and thru that "nation" all of mankind would receive blessings. As the years wore on and Sarah could not conceive this got to be of concern to her as to how this "promise" was going to happen. Lots of time passed. Sarah, obviously feeling the pressure, proposed to substitute her Egyptian maidservant so that she might have a child by her. Abraham agreed, a baby boy named Ishmael was born. His mother was named Hagar, and she was called in the Hebrew Scriptures, Abraham's "concubine." What that meant was that they had a sexual relationship and were parents of a child recognized as Abraham's, even though he hadn't married her in a legal sense. 14 years later at the age of 90 Sarah finally conceived and her child, also a boy was named Isaac. 5 years later at a weaning ceremony, the teenaged Ishmael behaved towards Isaac in a way that Sarah deemed threatening and she demanded he be sent away. Abraham was reluctant, God intervened and Ismael was sent away. 32 years later Sarah died and after that Abraham married Keturah, and fathered six more sons, meaning that from Abraham sprang not only the Israelites, Ishmaelite's, and Edomite's but also Medanite's, Midianite's, and others. So he really was the father of many nations as had been prophesied about him. At 175 years of age Abraham died, but before his death he took steps to protect his primary child that he felt God had been talking about. That was Isaac. So he gave gifts to Ishmael and to the other 6 sons he had with Keturah and sent them away so that Isaac could be his full legal heir and inherit the most. Here is the key point. That is found at Gen. 25:6. What is interesting is that different translations word that verse differently. Some call both Hagar and Keturah by name, his "concubines." Others just say "concubines" meaning Hagar and the second wife Keturah. So a woman who was not the primary wife legally, was given to Abraham to produce children and the word for that was concubine. You are correct that nowhere did God command this. He allowed it, but he did not command it. As far as your last sentence about the future kings of Israel, it is self explanatory...there hearts being "turned away" applied to them marrying outside of their culture and faith i.e.: women of the "pagan" nations around them.

concerning concubines, this is from a link about ancient Hebrew culture it sounds just like what the FLDS are doing MISGUIDED though they are.


Concubinage was practiced in many ancient cultures, especially in Mesopotamia.....where a private citizen might have one or two concubines in addition to his primary wife.....a concubine was often a slave or part of the booty of war (Judges 5:30). A man might have a concubine simply as an economical form of marriage, since no dowry or bride-price was required. A concubine could add to a man's prestige by giving him two wives and thus an increased capacity for children. Such offspring were normally delivered onto the knees of the legal wife, thus establishing their legitimacy as family members. The concubine was also another servant to add to his work force.' (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1997, Vol 1, p504).
http://thetruth.atspace.com/concubines.html

[Truly]

Freedom of Information Act documents obtained by NBC News show that the Pentagon awarded contracts of at least $1.5 million to two Utah-based companies owned and operated by senior officials of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS. The contracts, issued from 1998 to 2006, were for aircraft parts and other military equipment.

The Pentagon contracts were awarded to Utah Tool & Die and Western Precision, Inc., which operated in Utah. The president of Western Precision was Wendell Nielsen, described in multiple media accounts as a senior official in the FLDS religious sect, whose West Texas compound was raided by police earlier this month as part of a wide-ranging child-abuse investigation. Neilsen disappeared with church leader Warren Jeffs after Jeffs was put on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list in 2003. Jeffs, the sect's "prophet," was convicted last year on two counts of rape as an accomplice.

The records show that Western Precision continued to receive government contracts even after the well-publicized manhunt. And when Jeffs was captured in 2006, he was riding in an SUV registered to John C. Wayman, another Western Precision executive..."

http://deepbackground.ms