FLDS compound in Texas Court proceedings ONLY please!!!!!

[mollymalone]

I really don't feel good about these hearrings being grouped like this...I think what has to happen is the decision whether to place them in foster care while the investigation is ongoing. Once that happens and authorities can sort out the family lineages, at that point there will be individual hearings for each child and or family.

The larger problem for the state is, because this really is an intermarrying, inter-related family is the entire compound considered the "home" or is the individual women's quarters considered individual "homes?" One that is decided it will better aid the Judge in deciding whether a child goes back into the abusive culture of this "home" or "homes."

[winteryns]

I'm thinking it could come down to that, especially in specific individual hearings, but first they would have to do dna in order to prove which child belongs to who. Once they can construct a chart showing the man, the wives and which children belong to him it would be easier to present in court.

I think you are right. How do they know these mothers are even a childs parent? They don't have birth certificates so any Joe Shmoe could come in and say the kids are thiers. How do you release these kids if you don't know who the parents are?

[mollymalone]

1:28 p.m. - She says the cell phones were removed because of inappropriate use. The women are free to leave, she said.
"I have no way of knowing what's going on out there," she said.
The lawyer said she wants cell phones returned so they can speak to clients because they won't be in San Angelo all the time.
The judge said she is not keeping the clients; they are free to go any time.Those from the FLDS really want those cell phones back into the hands of the women with the children so that they can "advise" or intimidate, not necessarily to check on the children. They want to know who's saying what to whom because there are some potential serious charges a lot of them could be facing, in particular because the testimony that each family had underage wives/girls who were pregnant.

[mollymalone]

I think you are right. How do they know these mothers are even a childs parent? They don't have birth certificates so any Joe Shmoe could come in and say the kids are thiers. How do you release these kids if you don't know who the parents are?
There are those who claim to have a birth certificate and I'll bet those are only the "First wives" who have them for their children. The others are not allowed to have them from what I've been hearing/reading. You can't release a child who is clearly from Canada to someone locally who claims to be their parent unless it can be proved.

One of the attorneys said that their client had a birth certificate and a drivers license and authorities could contact her at any time in future for investigating. BS.. IMO she'd be moved out of state immediately once her children were returned to her.

[LinasK]

Those from the FLDS really want those cell phones back into the hands of the women with the children so that they can "advise" or intimidate, not necessarily to check on the children. They want to know who's saying what to whom because there are some potential serious charges a lot of them could be facing, in particular because the testimony that each family had underage wives/girls who were pregnant.

I agree, which is why it was a good thing that the cell phones were removed. At least there has been a few days without intimidation and sexual abuse going on. The FLDS men will probably just start over with a new crop/herd of women.

[JerzWhim]

From what we know so far, it appears that the judge will be remanding all the children into state custody.

- Underage wives (a parent surrendering his/her child to such a condition constitutes abuse; this followed by the statutory rape of the husband)
- Pregnant minors (the physical result of statutory rape)
- No documented proof of kinship (how do you match each child to a mother and father?). A child can only be remanded to a legal guardian, and this guardianship must be proved by the parent (normally a birth certificate of the child does this).

For the judge to return the children despite the above established facts would be a gross legal error. It is just not going to happen.

I expect an umbrella decision to sort it all out by:
- having the state take custody of the kids
- the kinship relationships properly established
- investigation of any crimes
- an examination of the environment that these children are raised in (did they witness crimes, frequency of that witnessing)
- The filing of a few hundred criminal and custody court cases dependant on the findings.

[mollymalone]

From FOX:
Kris Gutierrez: The teens they talked to said according to their beliefs it's okay to be married at any age. Attorney tried to raise questions about the original phone call being a hoax.
Judge: Those questions are for a criminal trial not a court hearing.

Alicia Acuna : Rozita Swinton was arrested on a misdemeanor. The warrant is sealed and it's not usual to seal on a misdemeanor. The Texas Rangers went to Colorado Springs to investigate and see if there was any connections.

Greenberg: there are two cases here, the criminal and the court hearing for custody, in the short term those children will be held in state custody. The Judge can rely on information that turns out to be false. All they have to show in this initial seizure is that at the time the Judge had the information, it was reasonable.

Flora Jessop: escaped as a teen and runs a rescue mission. She took calls from Sarah, the 16 year old.

Flora: the system worked in this case.It's not my job to determine if they are real or not. It's my job to turn over to CPS and LE. When CPS couldn't find the girl. LE worked to find her. They worked closely with us to find this person who called.

I've helped rescue 84 women and children and they can transition, the children are resourceful and they come back. You have to love them into normalcy. You show them that love doesn't mean fear, pain and hate.

Initially, some of the children I have worked with they will say "you say you care but you don't because you don't hit me." They have to be shown that love doesn't mean you get hit across the face, or a belt across your back or locked in a room and not fed.

[mollymalone]

From what we know so far, it appears that the judge will be remanding all the children into state custody.

- Underage wives (a parent surrendering his/her child to such a condition constitutes abuse; this followed by the statutory rape of the husband)
- Pregnant minors (the physical result of statutory rape)
- No documented proof of kinship (how do you match each child to a mother and father?). A child can only be remanded to a legal guardian, and this guardianship must be proved by the parent (normally a birth certificate of the child does this).

For the judge to return the children despite the above established facts would be a gross legal error. It is just not going to happen.

I expect an umbrella decision to sort it all out by:
- having the state take custody of the kids
- the kinship relationships properly established
- investigation of any crimes
- an examination of the environment that these children are raised in (did they witness crimes, frequency of that witnessing)
- The filing of a few hundred criminal and custody court cases dependant on the findings.Great summary. I too think that's what will occur.

[mollymalone]

I agree, which is why it was a good thing that the cell phones were removed. At least there has been a few days without intimidation and sexual abuse going on. The FLDS men will probably just start over with a new crop/herd of women.Not if they can put them in jail for any crimes they may have committed. However, if they believe they'll be charged they'll be long gone, in fact some of them may be already.

[Linda7NJ]

A woman was arrested for making a false report of abuse to a former FLDS member. I don't know if it's the same person that made the initial reports that sparked this. But the women is being held and her bail is set a 20K

[Floh]

Thread for links in this story. please add a link which you think would be useful. the idea is to keep all links together in one place:

Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas — LINKS ONLY. No discussion.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2146620&posted=1#post2146620

[Leila]

130 are under the age of 4

I bet many of the mothers of these children who are under age 4, are girls who were underage when they conceived their first child.

[Ladybass0711]

1:50 Attorney representing boys under age of five, teenage girls believed not to have children continue to ask specifics about what children should stay with their mothers. An attorney for boys age 5 to 11 asks if boys have been coached on how to respond. Objection is overruled. The witness said there is a sense that the children's interactions with strangers were being monitored. He said the boys think the ranch is a special place. Another attorney representing a 6-year-old boy asks which age group of children are at least risk for returning to their mothers only. He said the youngest children or babies are least influenced by any beliefs that may be unhelpful.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[mollymalone]

A woman was arrested for making a false report of abuse to a former FLDS member. I don't know if it's the same person that made the initial reports that sparked this. But the women is being held and her bail is set a 20KIs that Swinton in Colorado Springs? Is that a high bail I wonder?

[Ladybass0711]

2:08 p.m.
Attorney asks again to compare damage from removing the children from the parents versus giving them back to parents for girls age 5 to 11 in the short run. The witness of the children the young preadolescent girls are most vulnerable because its a time of life when they look to older women to see how to live. They are the most vulnerable because of a community that has sexual abuse, he said.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

2:15 p.m. Witness said typical foster care placement wold not be ideal environment for the kids from YFZ Ranch. Maybe at some point, it would be reasonable.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

Great summary. I too think that's what will occur.


Look out for some violence to erupt when this decision is handed down! Especially when those 84 woman are order to leave there children under 4. Thats going to be coming soon! There is no way the judge will allow them to remain with there kids.

[mollymalone]

Look out for some violence to erupt when this decision is handed down! Especially when those 84 woman are order to leave there children under 4. Thats going to be coming soon! There is no way the judge will allow them to remain with there kids.I'm not sure there will be violence but there will be an uproar and they'll be stepping up their pr campaign.

[Ladybass0711]

2:20 p.m. - The children from the ranch believe they should not talk about certain things of their life, and should be passive-aggressive in some of their behavior, the witness said.
Now attorneys for boys and girls ages birth through 4 ask questions. Witness said kids are healthy and the medical aspect of their life needs to be investigated and made known to people who care for them.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

2:35 p.m. - An attorney speaking for lawyers representing the youngest children asks: Would it be worse for the well-being of the younger children to be returned to the FLDS sect home, or to be separated from their familiar environment?
To be taken from their environment would be worse, the psychiatrist says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

2:45 p.m. - The psychiatrist leaves the stand, and the prosecution rests.
Attorneys for fathers call their first witness.
He reels off his education, including a doctorate in religious studies concentrating on Mormonism.
There's nothing in any of the foundational Scripture that gives the proper age for marriage, he says under questioning.
FLDS considers the Bible the word of God, he says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/


Side note from me(Ladybass) No objections?? State is letting them hang themselves

[mollymalone]

True, but this particular branch of the FLDS is in question and they follow Warren Jeff's teachings, and among his directives is the marrying of underage children, the removal of boys who are in competition and the removal of any man he considers competition, or chooses to torment by removing them from their families, thus tormenting the family by their separation from him and being reassigned.

Edited to add: Ladybass, they can put on all the experts they want to talk about OTHER fundamentalists and it won't do any good because their beliefs and lifestyles aren't in question, this group of people's is.

[Ladybass0711]

2:57 p.m. - The FLDS generally expels members who engage in extramarital sex, the religious expert testifies.
In his experience, he says under questioning, parents would not approach a girl balking at marriage by telling her she will go to hell or have to leave the community.
But there could be some spiritual consequences discussed with the female, he says.
"Basically, they're into matchmaking," the expert says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Leila]

1:25 p.m. - Court is still not in session. Lawyers trickle in and huddle in groups, talking about the case. A few people from FLDS sit and wait, and some talk to a reporter.

I doubt they're going to finish this up by 4:00pm, unless the judge has already come to some sort of decision.

I can't see the judge opting to return the children to the YFZ ranch.

[Ladybass0711]

3:06 p.m. - The attorney for Child Protective Services begins cross-examination of the religious expert.
"If the children are reporting that when they marry is when the prophet says, 'You marry,' would that be consistent?" the attorney says.
Among the FLDS, many opinions have been expressed about the right age for a girl to marry, the expert says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

3:11 p.m. - A child's attorney asks the religious expert whether he's saying that differences exist among sect members and their beliefs.
"You cannot treat them all the same. They're not homogeneous," the religious expert says.
The 20,000 FLDS members will probably always recognize a single prophet, but how much they adhere to the prophet's teachings just depends, the expert says.
The attorney asks whether the expert has heard of "lying for the Lord."
"There are times when they can be deceptive - basically, when they feel their survival is at stake," the expert says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[LinasK]

3:06 p.m. - The attorney for Child Protective Services begins cross-examination of the religious expert.
"If the children are reporting that when they marry is when the prophet says, 'You marry,' would that be consistent?" the attorney says.
Among the FLDS, many opinions have been expressed about the right age for a girl to marry, the expert says.
Some church leaders have said 18, and others have said that when a female begins her menstrual cycle, that's a good time, he says.
They also generally look at the child individually, the expert says. One child might be ready at 16, but a less responsible one "might have to wait until she gets older.":eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
I started at age 11!

[mollymalone]

This expert hasn't been there 24/7 and he has no real knowledge of what goes on in that temple, especially if he's an outsider.


"The child's attorney asks about the bed in the temple, an item mentioned in many news reports. The bed is there, the expert says, because the FLDS members might fast, and when hundreds of people fast, there might be incidences of fainting. To his knowledge, he says, no sex has occurred in the temple."

[Ladybass0711]

3:21 p.m. - An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, "He's in jail somewhere."
It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.
Another child's attorney asks: Isn't it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself - a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?
It's not a case of some sort of "leering" yen for underage girls, the expert says. Instead, what probably happens is that Jeffs sees that a girl has reached adulthood as defined by the community, and then he offers the girl the opportunity for marriage.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

3:42 p.m. - Rumors, fueled by the passage of a black limousine, resurface among crowds outside the courthouse that Oprah is in town. Her rumored location is Miss Hattie's.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[mollymalone]

3:42 p.m. - Rumors, fueled by the passage of a black limousine, resurface among crowds outside the courthouse that Oprah is in town. Her rumored location is Miss Hattie's.(Blowing raspberry) Just what's needed in that town right now. I guess since Fox and CNN and the rest interviewed the FLDS members first she's got to make up for lost time.

Edited to add: I am glad that attorney posed the question about Jeff's and the age of marriage. It said that attorney's client was a child that was fathered by Jeffs.

[golfmom]

Live courtroom updates are being provided here: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

Warren Jeffs may be called to testify in Texas custody case


http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271716,00.html

[JerzWhim]

(Blowing raspberry) Just what's needed in that town right now. I guess since Fox and CNN and the rest interviewed the FLDS members first she's got to make up for lost time.

If this proves true, my take is that she and her advisers only now realized how explosive an issue this is. I do not know if she could make it a bigger issue, but her involvement (if true) would appear to be more than a bit self-serving. It's not like Oprah just learned of the FLDS Mormons yesterday.

[thefragile7393]

(Blowing raspberry) Just what's needed in that town right now. I guess since Fox and CNN and the rest interviewed the FLDS members first she's got to make up for lost time.

And her presence may have nothing to do with this at all but she's filming a show on a different topic. She's already done shows on polygamists, etc. Why appear now?

[mollymalone]

3:21 p.m. - An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, "He's in jail somewhere."
It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.
Another child's attorney asks: Isn't it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself - a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?
It's not a case of some sort of "leering" yen for underage girls, the expert says. Instead, what probably happens is that Jeffs sees that a girl has reached adulthood as defined by the community, and then he offers the girl the opportunity for marriage.
Does he offer that opportunity to girls as young as 14? the attorney said.
Laughter breaks out.
"I don't have personal knowledge" of every offer he's made," the expert says. Jeffs has recommended younger girls than his predecessors did for marriage, he says.
How young? the attorney asks.
"Thirteen is the youngest he's recommended," the expert says.
The FLDS members believe they have a sacred responsibility to help all the children of God come down from their state of "pre-mortality" so that they can have the chance to go to heaven, he says.
"They believe that having children is their sacred calling," the expert says.
Yeah, he "offers", let's call it like it is, coerces them into marriage with an old fart instead of someone their age that they might be more naturally attracted to.

[barb0301]

3:42 p.m. - Rumors, fueled by the passage of a black limousine, resurface among crowds outside the courthouse that Oprah is in town. Her rumored location is Miss Hattie's.

Absolutely NOT NEEDED at the moment !!!! :mad:

[Ladybass0711]

3:33 p.m. - "Most FLDS men have never even seen their wives naked, no matter how long they've been married," the expert offers under questioning from yet another child's attorney.
They wear religious garments at all times, long-john type garments, he says. They don't take them off during sex.
The FLDS members also have conservative family values, the expert says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[LinasK]

3:21 p.m. - An attorney for parents objects to the line of questioning about Jeffs, noting that, "He's in jail somewhere."
It turns out that Jeffs is the father of the child the attorney is representing.
Another child's attorney asks: Isn't it true that Mr. Jeffs not only encourages marriage between older men and underage girls, but he also participates in it himself - a 40-year-old who marries underage girls?
It's not a case of some sort of "leering" yen for underage girls, the expert says. Instead, what probably happens is that Jeffs sees that a girl has reached adulthood as defined by the community, and then he offers the girl the opportunity for marriage.
Does he offer that opportunity to girls as young as 14? the attorney said.
Laughter breaks out.
"I don't have personal knowledge" of every offer he's made," the expert says. Jeffs has recommended younger girls than his predecessors did for marriage, he says.
How young? the attorney asks.
"Thirteen is the youngest he's recommended," the expert says.
The FLDS members believe they have a sacred responsibility to help all the children of God come down from their state of "pre-mortality" so that they can have the chance to go to heaven, he says.
"They believe that having children is their sacred calling," the expert says.


Well Jews have bar and bat-mitzvahs at age 13, because they are considered adults in Jewish law, but this doesn't mean you literally go have sex with them!:doh: Also what was commonplace 200 years ago, they didn't live beyond their 30's.

[Ladybass0711]

3:40 p.m. - A father's attorney asks the expert witness on religion: What do you know of a "house of hiding" mentioned in some documents?
The FLDS has been persecuted at times in its 180-year history, the expert says, so it has had to have places for people to go to hide out. But, he says, if authorities were seeking a child molester among the FLDS, then the other members would not be prone to help him.
The judge moves the civil hearing along by calling for questions from the mothers' attorneys.
"Obviously, we're not going to get through by 4 o'clock, but I still hope to get through by sundown," the judge says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[LinasK]

3:33 p.m. - "Most FLDS men have never even seen their wives naked, no matter how long they've been married," the expert offers under questioning from yet another child's attorney.
They wear religious garments at all times, long-john type garments, he says. They don't take them off during sex.
The FLDS members also have conservative family values, the expert says.
Why are there more girls than boys at the ranch, another child's attorney asks.
"Normally, during the teenage years, the boys will begin working outside the community to earn money," the expert says.
The next child's attorney says: Are there are other reasons that FLDS boys go outside the community?
The expert doesn't know.
"Do you know what the phrase, 'Be sweet' means, sir?" the attorney says.
It generally means to follow the example of Christ and don't give in to anger, the expert says.
"Would you say that those girls have any real choice to decline (marriage), or are they pressured so much that they pretty much have to agree?" the attorney says.
In some cases, the reasons for the rejection have led to the girl having to leave the community because it creates too much tension, the expert says. In other cases, that hasn't happened.
A polite way of saying "shut up and take it"

[mollymalone]

Absolutely NOT NEEDED at the moment !!!! :mad: Nexts will be Dr. Phil!!

[adnoid]

3:33 p.m. - "Most FLDS men have never even seen their wives naked, no matter how long they've been married," the expert offers under questioning from yet another child's attorney...

Having seen pictures of some of the FLDS men, I hope for these women's sake that works both ways.

[golfmom]

:laugh:
Having seen pictures of some of the FLDS men, I hope for these women's sake that works both ways.

Well, you know, that superior gene pool and all that. :sick:

[mollymalone]

A polite way of saying "shut up and take it"
Disingenuous of the expert to say he doesn't know of any other reason the boys would be out of their homes!!
Especially if they're such an expert on the flds they would know about the lost boys. Seems to me this expert is sugar coating the testimony.

Edited to add: Oh sure, they'd turn over a child molester to the authorities. That's why they hid Jeffs and his henchmen when they were being sought by those same authorities. That's why they move the children out of the community to another one when authorities get too close to the truth.

[barb0301]

3:33 p.m. - "
Why are there more girls than boys at the ranch, another child's attorney asks.
"Normally, during the teenage years, the boys will begin working outside the community to earn money," the expert says.
The next child's attorney says: Are there are other reasons that FLDS boys go outside the community?
The expert doesn't know.


If this isn't an understatement, I don't know what is !!!!!!!!!!

Geez Louise !!!!!!!!!!! How much is this guy getting paid by the FLDS?

[barb0301]

Nexts will be Dr. Phil!!

And Jerry Springer !!!

[Ladybass0711]

3:54 p.m. - "What's the significance of bishop's records?" an attorney says.
They can be records of births, marriages, deaths, ordinations, that sort of thing, the expert answers.
The next question is about "lost boys."
That's a term used by the outside world to refer to teen boys expelled from the community - not the FLDS, the expert says. A lot of boys reaching their teenage years begin rebelling against spending all their free time singing hymns, praying and pursuing other spiritual endeavors.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[Ladybass0711]

5 minute break

[barb0301]

I hope they have extra security for when the decision is announced, I can envision the reaction. They need security both at the courthouse and where the children are.

[galvino]

I wish that the state could put up an 'expert witness' to counter this
paid-for-hack, someone who would cut thru all the BS this guy is stating (Flora or Carolyn perhaps? or someone else who lived this life with these specific men)

I guess that type of rebuttal would only take place in a criminal trial, but it seems only fair here!

[Linda7NJ]

Disingenuous of the expert to say he doesn't know of any other reason the boys would be out of their homes!!
Especially if they're such an expert on the flds they would know about the lost boys. Seems to me this expert is sugar coating the testimony.

Edited to add: Oh sure, they'd turn over a child molester to the authorities. That's why they hid Jeffs and his henchmen when they were being sought by those same authorities. That's why they move the children out of the community to another one when authorities get too close to the truth.


Someone should have asked him to define "child molester" :rolleyes:

He's either an idiot or a pedophile.

[Texana]

Someone should have asked him to define "child molester" :rolleyes:

He's either an idiot or a pedophile.

Is there a space to check "both" for that?

[Linda7NJ]

Is there a space to check "both" for that?


sure:)

[golfmom]

"Under questioning from the parents' attorney who's pursuing his objection, the psychiatrist says he has gotten much of his information from the media."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

[txsvicki]

3:42 p.m. - Rumors, fueled by the passage of a black limousine, resurface among crowds outside the courthouse that Oprah is in town. Her rumored location is Miss Hattie's.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/


Miss Hatties, the historic whore house downtown. There's not that much to see at Miss Hattie's , but it's a pretty, laid back little town with a river walk, old homes, surrounded by lakes, and a retirement place for many seniors. I love San Angelo and hate to think of it being so disrupted due to all this, but very glad the freaks were caught. I've avoided this thread due to fear that the hearing isn't going well. Hope it ends soon in total favor of the children and they get the remaining perverts out of San Angelo and into prison. There's some polygamous compound not far from my town. Why are they choosing Texas.

[Linda7NJ]

"Under questioning from the parents' attorney who's pursuing his objection, the psychiatrist says he has gotten much of his information from the media."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/



oooooooooooooo does that make us all experts now?:waitasec:

[mollymalone]

Miss Hatties, the historic whore house downtown. There's not that much to see at Miss Hattie's , but it's a pretty, laid back little town with a river walk, old homes, surrounded by lakes, and a retirement place for many seniors. I love San Angelo and hate to think of it being so disrupted due to all this, but very glad the freaks were caught. I've avoided this thread due to fear that the hearing isn't going well. Hope it ends soon in total favor of the children and they get the remaining perverts out of San Angelo and into prison. There's some polygamous compound not far from my town. Why are they choosing Texas.
They chose Texas because of it's law ...and then after they moved there it was changed. There's probably been some living there in various places all along, just under the radar so to speak and not in compounds like that. Probably the walls around their properties are a new thing ordered by Jeffs. EDITED to add: The walls make it easier for them to keep the girls or women from escaping.

[mollymalone]

Someone should have asked him to define "child molester" :rolleyes:

He's either an idiot or a pedophile.
They really should ask that question of the expert. I'm sure there are many who would like to know his definition, in light of his testimony.

[golfmom]

oooooooooooooo does that make us all experts now?:waitasec:


LOL, Linda ... I know at this point we all feel like a bunch of experts.

[barb0301]

oooooooooooooo does that make us all experts now?:waitasec:

I'm totally insulted that I have not been called as a witness......:waitasec:


Long 5 minute break they are taking!!!

[Moe]

Sure is, we need an update, like an hour ago.

[mollymalone]

Longest 5 minute break I've seen too!!

William John Walsh is the expert testifying. He's a Mormon scholar who has studied the FLDS religion for 18 years. Yet says he got his information from the media. :chicken:

"The temple, however, is the first to be built by FLDS faithful on any of their properties in several states and Canada."


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8969119
This article has some of the testimony and more of what he said.

[galvino]

I don't post often at all, but I gotta tell ya, I am FASCINATED by all of this. I don't mean that in a voyeuristic (sp) sense (well, maybe a tad-lol) but because this is so multi-layered it makes an onion look like a flat sheet of paper! Child abuse, brain washing, religeous freedom vs persecution, 1st amendment issues, fraud and financial wrangling, corruption in the FDLS & our own government which has turned a blind eye for decades, as well as the burden on our gov't (which the FDLS exploits), history ( of religion and America's west), the law, crazy's who insert themselves (like this chick in CO.)- I mean, other than a discussion on the art appreciation (or lack thereof) of the FDLS- (I will say their interior design capabilities are sorely lacking and Project Runway would have a field day redesigning pastel prarie dresses), is there anything that this case doesn't involve? Lawdy!

I have read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and other books/articles on this sect, but I gotta tell ya, after this is all said and done- which will take years-The definitive "book" written on this cult will be larger than the Book of Mormon and twice as unbelievable! (sorry- I don't mean to be disrespectful).

My only hope is that these issues do not fade away and take a back burner in the media- which we all know they will due to the election and the next crime de'jour- because it is CRAZY that this will continue to be allowed in this country!

Sorry for my rant!

[barb0301]

Rangers: Possible hoax call that led to polygamist compound raid
06:36 PM CDT on Friday, April 18, 2008

KHOU.com staff report

The Texas Rangers are investigating whether the phone call that led to the raid of a polygamist compound in West Texas may have been a hoax.

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou080418_tj_eldarodo.78e2c770.html

[barb0301]

I don't post often at all, but I gotta tell ya, I am FASCINATED by all of this. I don't mean that in a voyeuristic (sp) sense (well, maybe a tad-lol) but because this is so multi-layered it makes an onion look like a flat sheet of paper! Child abuse, brain washing, religeous freedom vs persecution, 1st amendment issues, fraud and financial wrangling, corruption in the FDLS & our own government which has turned a blind eye for decades, as well as the burden on our gov't (which the FDLS exploits), history ( of religion and America's west), the law, crazy's who insert themselves (like this chick in CO.)- I mean, other than a discussion on the art appreciation (or lack thereof) of the FDLS- (I will say their interior design capabilities are sorely lacking and Project Runway would have a field day redesigning pastel prarie dresses), is there anything that this case doesn't involve? Lawdy!

I have read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and other books/articles on this sect, but I gotta tell ya, after this is all said and done- which will take years-The definitive "book" written on this cult will be larger than the Book of Mormon and twice as unbelievable! (sorry- I don't mean to be disrespectful).

My only hope is that these issues do not fade away and take a back burner in the media- which we all know they will due to the election and the next crime de'jour- because it is CRAZY that this will continue to be allowed in this country!

Sorry for my rant!

No need to apologize, and well said !! :clap: :clap:

Hope you'll continue to contribute to the discussion !

[mollymalone]

I have read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and other books/articles on this sect, but I gotta tell ya, after this is all said and done- which will take years-The definitive "book" written on this cult will be larger than the Book of Mormon and twice as unbelievable! (sorry- I don't mean to be disrespectful).

My only hope is that these issues do not fade away and take a back burner in the media- which we all know they will due to the election and the next crime de'jour- because it is CRAZY that this will continue to be allowed in this country!

Sorry for my rant!Hopefully since the light has been shone onto this subject a lot of people will continue to keep abreast of what happens. There are several investigative journalists who have been involved in this case already and even if they move on to other reports etc. I suspect some of them will keep their eye on this group.

[golfmom]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/04/18/texas-trial.html

Some of the more than 400 children taken from a West Texas polygamist compound are Canadian citizens, a state official said Friday.

Angie Voss, who is with Texas Child Protection Services, didn't say how many are Canadian or give their ages or sex. Voss said they would remain in state custody regardless of their citizenship.

[barb0301]

Per CNN, mothers are testifying, they will do anything they have to to get children back, including psychological exams, etc. 4 mothers testifying. 1 mother cannot even define word abuse. Mothers cannot say how many underage girls pregnant/have children.

[golfmom]

http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=8195328

Witness for parents says no sex in West Texas polygamist temple

Associated Press - April 18, 2008 6:45 PM ET

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - A witness for some parents today said there's no sexual activity in the temple at the polygamist group's compound in West Texas.

W. John Walsh also said a bed in the temple -- is for naps during the sect's long worship services.

[golfmom]

Per CNN, mothers are testifying, they will do anything they have to to get children back, including psychological exams, etc. 4 mothers testifying. 1 mother cannot even define word abuse. Mothers cannot say how many underage girls pregnant/have children.

1. If they cannot define what abuse is, how do they know if what they are doing is abusive or not?

2. Of course they know how many underage girls are pregnant or had babies. If they don't know the exact number, they at least have a general idea.

[Linda7NJ]

I don't post often at all, but I gotta tell ya, I am FASCINATED by all of this. I don't mean that in a voyeuristic (sp) sense (well, maybe a tad-lol) but because this is so multi-layered it makes an onion look like a flat sheet of paper! Child abuse, brain washing, religeous freedom vs persecution, 1st amendment issues, fraud and financial wrangling, corruption in the FDLS & our own government which has turned a blind eye for decades, as well as the burden on our gov't (which the FDLS exploits), history ( of religion and America's west), the law, crazy's who insert themselves (like this chick in CO.)- I mean, other than a discussion on the art appreciation (or lack thereof) of the FDLS- (I will say their interior design capabilities are sorely lacking and Project Runway would have a field day redesigning pastel prarie dresses), is there anything that this case doesn't involve? Lawdy!

I have read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and other books/articles on this sect, but I gotta tell ya, after this is all said and done- which will take years-The definitive "book" written on this cult will be larger than the Book of Mormon and twice as unbelievable! (sorry- I don't mean to be disrespectful).

My only hope is that these issues do not fade away and take a back burner in the media- which we all know they will due to the election and the next crime de'jour- because it is CRAZY that this will continue to be allowed in this country!

Sorry for my rant!


so glad you posted and rant away!

[mollymalone]

http://www.star-telegram.com/189/story/590365.html

Voss then began laying out the state's case for keeping the children in custody. She said many of the girls told CPS caseworkers that no age is too young to marry and that it is their mission to have as many children as possible. "There was a mind-set that when the prophet came and told them it was time get married, that was what they were going to do no matter what the age," Voss said. Many of the girls were eager to begin having children and were thrilled to be living at the 1,691-acre ranch four miles north of Eldorado, she said. "They said it was an honor to be there. They said, 'This is Zion,'" Voss said.

She has determined that girls as young as 13 have children, Voss said. One 14-year-old and a number of 15-year-olds are pregnant, she testified.

When asked if she believes that the children should return to the compound, Voss said they should not because the sect members do not believe they are doing anything wrong.

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=8195328

Witness for parents says no sex in West Texas polygamist temple

Associated Press - April 18, 2008 6:45 PM ET

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - A witness for some parents today said there's no sexual activity in the temple at the polygamist group's compound in West Texas.

W. John Walsh also said a bed in the temple -- is for naps during the sect's long worship services.


naps and if someone passes out from "fasting":rolleyes: yeah okay

[golfmom]

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/589922.html

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- Girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation, experts for the state testified Friday at a custody hearing for 416 youngsters.

The renegade Mormon sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist and an authority on children in cults.

[mollymalone]

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4680903&page=1

Perry said he interviewed three underage girls from the sect, and they told him they had a choice in whether they got married. He said, however, "It doesn't feel to me like it's a true choice."

Children raised in such an authoritarian atmosphere, Perry said, have the "independent thinking capability of a much younger child."

He said a 15-year-old from a sect would have the critical thinking of a 6-year-old. "So much of what they do out there is wonderful. But there is a part of what they do that is very destructive," Perry testified. He said he wished the sect's leaders wouldn't teach their children to be so fearful of the outside world.

[Linda7NJ]

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4680903&page=1

Perry said he interviewed three underage girls from the sect, and they told him they had a choice in whether they got married. He said, however, "It doesn't feel to me like it's a true choice."

Children raised in such an authoritarian atmosphere, Perry said, have the "independent thinking capability of a much younger child."

He said a 15-year-old from a sect would have the critical thinking of a 6-year-old. "So much of what they do out there is wonderful. But there is a part of what they do that is very destructive," Perry testified. He said he wished the sect's leaders wouldn't teach their children to be so fearful of the outside world.


I think the judge is gonna split the difference and send the little ones under 5 back. Would be a HUGE mistake IMO

[galvino]

I was nervous after listening to Jeff Toobin today- he seemed to be backing the FLDS rights and I thought YIKES! I know that there are journalists very involved in this, as well as the interested public and church members who have defected, but really, I think that history shows us that when all the noise dies down, we tend to let it drop unless it is affecting our own children and our own lives everyday and it tends to fade from the public conciousness- and if oversights by our own govt (Utah/AZ)begin to come out there will be cover-ups.

B/c we are a country and society that is so media driven, I am so afraid that It will end up being sidelined by other issues and ppl will say- yeah it sux, but it is not affecting me daily, sooooo...

JMO of course!

[mollymalone]

Nancy Grace show:

The Judge summarized all of the testimony and we could hear a ruling as early as today. She's just taken a recess. This is the Judge's exact quote "This is the hardest, toughest decision a judge has to make any day."

Someone called in and asked a good question. They asked whether someone on the state level issued the permits to build a compound like this.

"The girls are small in the pelvis to be delivering children, and many might require c sections and I doubt they are doing them at the compound."

[mollymalone]

I think the judge is gonna split the difference and send the little ones under 5 back. Would be a HUGE mistake IMO
I think she'll keep them all until proof of parenthood of those children can be ascertained. The women staying with the under 5 can stay with their children but if they wish to leave they can, but they won't come back.

Nancy Grace Show: Guest Host
I understand that dna tests have been done on the children before they had lawyers.

Guest: I don't think that will be a problem, since this is in the best intersts of the child.

[galvino]

Molly- I hope so!

[mollymalone]

The Judge has said she has heard sufficient information to keep the children!

[Linda7NJ]

YEAH

state is retaining custody!:woohoo:

[galvino]

Hallyloolya!!!!!

[mollymalone]

They're waiting to hear what the Judge's determination, how she words it, whether this is all of the children.

[Ladybass0711]

Desision has been made. judge has heard sufficient evidence to keep them in state

[galvino]

DNA testing too- will blow this wide open i think!

[jilly]

There will be paternity testing.

[mollymalone]

The host just got word that there will be paternity testing for the children!

Former FLDS member Holm says that they need to place the children in homes that are caucasion, because they have been taught to be racist and will not do well and will react if placed in homes that are not caucasion.

[galvino]

I agree with this NG talking head about normal foster homes-

Boy- if I were nearby I would take some kids (after MAJOR training in how to handle this)

[golfmom]

Molly, I thought yesterday that the state admitted that they had already taken DNA samples from the children, without discussing with their attorneys. However, it's all useless UNLESS they can get the parents to submit DNA to compare it against.

I bet we'll find out a lot of the kids don't have parents in "Zion".

[barb0301]

All 416 kids to stay in state custody !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Parents to receive DNA tests

per CNN

[Linda7NJ]

I agree with this NG talking head about normal foster homes-

Boy- if I were nearby I would take some kids (after MAJOR training in how to handle this)


I think the law abiding Mormons should step up and help educate and apply to be licenced for foster care...

[galvino]

Golfmom- I'll bet you r right- but they will start bussing the parents in ASAP!

[mollymalone]

This means that from here they'll go to permanent custody hearings for each child once the paternity issues are cleared. If there are to be criminal charges because of evidence found, the authorites can press forward with the investigations involving those.

[Linda7NJ]

Molly, I thought yesterday that the state admitted that they had already taken DNA samples from the children, without discussing with their attorneys. However, it's all useless UNLESS they can get the parents to submit DNA to compare it against.

I bet we'll find out a lot of the kids don't have parents in "Zion".


If a parent doesn't step up to claim a child, the child will be considered abandoned and may be fast tracked to adoptions.

We'll see just how "close" they all are and how much the parents want them back.

NO more welfare for them!

[galvino]

Linda- I agree with you!

[Linda7NJ]

Linda- I agree with you!


Thanks:):blowkiss:

[mollymalone]

Molly, I thought yesterday that the state admitted that they had already taken DNA samples from the children, without discussing with their attorneys. However, it's all useless UNLESS they can get the parents to submit DNA to compare it against.

I bet we'll find out a lot of the kids don't have parents in "Zion".
Well, the court has ordered it, and if they want their kids back, they'll submit to the testing. Howver, if they are ordered not to... and they obey, or they are spirited away from Texas...

There's a man in Colorado City who was kicked out by Jeffs and he knows his two daughters are in custody of Texas and he would liked to get custody. So I believe there are more parents outside of the Texas compound who would like to get their children back.

The Court has ruled they will set up a mobile testing lab outside the colesium for paternity tests.

Jessop: There's not a family tree, it's a family wreath, because we're all related and it's going to be interesting to see the results because of all the incest involved.

[barb0301]

Linda- I agree with you!

Me too !!

[Linda7NJ]

What happened to LadyBass0711? is she packing for Texas?

[biggirl]

Ladybass, will you be heading that way soon??

[mollymalone]

Host: Why don't we hear the men?
Carolyn: My question exactly. Merrill Jessop has 8 children they've taken, he's not out there but he's got several of his wives out there. They're afraid to speak out because society will see them as perpetrators. They send the women out because society is seeing the women as victims and they're sympathetic and they'll get their children back.

[galvino]

I spoke with some British citizens today- very interesting to get their insights. I love what Flora said about the family "wreath" as opposed to a family tree! Oh- I can only hope that this is going to blow this entire thing wide open!

[Ladybass0711]

Now that we have a decision more then likely I will be heading down, I haven't heard from the organization as of yet, and don't expect to until monday or tuesday, but hubby and I are starting to make initial plans.

[galvino]

LadyBass-

Godspeed and God Bless You!

[biggirl]

Can the Mama's or Papa's be forced to submit DNA??

[Linda7NJ]

I spoke with some British citizens today- very interesting to get their insights. I love what Flora said about the family "wreath" as opposed to a family tree! Oh- I can only hope that this is going to blow this entire thing wide open!

Me too!

[wicket]

I am just so glad to hear that the children have been taken. DNA here we come.
But I have a question that maybe someone can answer. This may sound depressing and truly horrific but is there a cemetery in the compound? I only see younger women or women maybe 50 or so years old - where are the elderly women? Do they ship them out to be buried or do they not allow old women in the compound? I'm sure there must be deaths in this compound due to illness - or are they totally exempt from diseases - diabetes, cancer, heart disease, etc.? I haven't heard this brought up anywhere.

[Linda7NJ]

Can the Mama's or Papa's be forced to submit DNA??


NO, but that means they won't get their kids back

[mollymalone]

Jessop: You'll notice that on top of the razor wire it points in, keeping people in.

The colors of the dresses -they are taught they are the jewel in the crown of their husbands. Their husbands will be kings in after life. They dress in these colors because of that.

[biggirl]

LadyBass-

Godspeed and God Bless You!

Ditto!:blowkiss:

[golfmom]

There's a man in Colorado City who was kicked out by Jeffs and he knows his two daughters are in custody of Texas and he would liked to get custody. So I believe there are more parents outside of the Texas compound who would like to get their children back.
.

So his daughters and wife were reassigned and he was just cut out of their lives. How sad. Hopefully, he can apply for full permanent custody.

[Trino]

Does anyone know about the mothers of children under 5? Are they still allowed to stay with the children? Will these children be placed in foster care also?

[barb0301]

I am just so glad to hear that the children have been taken. DNA here we come.
But I have a question that maybe someone can answer. This may sound depressing and truly horrific but is there a cemetery in the compound? I only see younger women or women maybe 50 or so years old - where are the elderly women? Do they ship them out to be buried or do they not allow old women in the compound? I'm sure there must be deaths in this compound due to illness - or are they totally exempt from diseases - diabetes, cancer, heart disease, etc.? I haven't heard this brought up anywhere.

I think that during the raid, they found 2 graves only. 1 of a woman, and 1 of a child, both had been properly reported to the authorities. There had been reports of unmarked graves at the compound, but cadaver dogs found none. Good question....you would think that in 4 years, more than the 2 people would have passed away?

[Ladybass0711]

Does anyone know about the mothers of children under 5? Are they still allowed to stay with the children? Will these children be placed in foster care also?

I believe they will be seperated. They have to, in order to investigate properly

[biggirl]

So his daughters and wife were reassigned and he was just cut out of their lives. How sad. Hopefully, he can apply for full permanent custody.

This just gets curiouser and curiouser, I still cannot get over the power these "prophets" have.

The more you hear the more amazing it is that all of this was done peacefully.

[Linda7NJ]

I think that during the raid, they found 2 graves only. 1 of a woman, and 1 of a child, both had been properly reported to the authorities. There had been reports of unmarked graves at the compound, but cadaver dogs found none. Good question....you would think that in 4 years, more than the 2 people would have passed away?


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I am still wondering why the young girls so out number the boys:waitasec:

[Leila]

I just got back from errands and learned the news! This is fantastic! I'm so please with the decision! Larry King devoting time to this right now!

[Ladybass0711]

larry king has it on now

[mollymalone]

I think that during the raid, they found 2 graves only. 1 of a woman, and 1 of a child, both had been properly reported to the authorities. There had been reports of unmarked graves at the compound, but cadaver dogs found none. Good question....you would think that in 4 years, more than the 2 people would have passed away?There are graves at Colorado City, AZ. I've heard there were unmarked graves there.

[galvino]

Linda-
You are right. If they are so 'concerned' about their own kids, they will submit to testing, but I'll bet that most will refuse and deflect their refusal to do so as an expression of their constitutional rights. They will now hide behind the constitution that they so readily abuse and flaunt, and show that their desire to perpetuate their 'beliefs' are more important than the actual welfare of their children!

[mollymalone]

I believe they will be seperated. They have to, in order to investigate properlyI wonder if any of those moms still with their children will take advantage of this opportunity to stay out?

For your efforts to help :blowkiss:

[gitana1]

I agree with Linda7. I think this judge may send the little ones back based on the psychiatrist's testimony. He is CPS' witness, right? Judges really like expert psychological/psychiatric testimony. However, I agree with Molly that it likely would not happen until the kids are identified. They need to have DNA tests to determine who both parents are, or at least the mother. And I have seen nothing definitive as to whether this has been done. They also need fingerprints, footprints, photos and lists of who the parents and/or siblings could be. Otherwise, they may just disappear. If CPS keeps track of them on a weekly basis, or something like that, having them come in for welfare checks every so often, that could help as well. The problem is, this is a culture, according to scores of those who have left or escaped, that abuses little babies. I'm sure not all, but when you are talking about underage mothers, overworked mothers, too many kids in one household, oppressed, abused women and children who were abused growing up to raise kids, the risk is high for abuse of these little ones, especially in a society that appears not to frown on pretty severe corporal punishment of small children. CPS is focusing on sexual abuse of young girls/teen girls. What about the physical abuse we have heard so much about among the FLDS? I wonder if they have found any evidence of that with this Eldorado group? I heard some witness statements alluding to such (suspected broken bones and serious injury leading to risk of death, if I recall), but for some reason, no more has been said at this hearing.
By the way, who is this religion expert? Has he ever talked to actual members who have escaped or been kicked out and thus have nothing to hide? If he has accessed the media, then surely he knows about the crackdown by the authorities on rampant underage marriage in Uath and Arizona. He must have heard the story of the two Fawns who had to esacpe so they would not be "forced" into marriage. I thought no one was made to do so? (Sarcasm) He must have heard also about the case involving the sixteen year old girl who was taken to a farm and horsewhipped by her father for refusing to marry her middle-aged uncle. That was all over the news a couple of years back. Not forced, huh? There is a ton of info on these people and if only a few of the scores of people who have fled or were kicked out is telling the truth, this is a dangerous society for children and women of all ages. It really seems this expert is ignoring quite a bit. And, I'm afraid it may be in part due to his own Mormon heritage. Please understand, I am well aware that mainstream Mormons ARE NOT FLDS. I have a lot of respect for the Latter Day Saints - their work ethic, attention to and emphasis on family, always helping their own people with whatever they need - and I respect their religious views, although I do not agree with much of it. They seem to be good people. However, mainstream Mormons do believe in polygamy in the afterlife. And, they have been notorious, in heavily Mormon AZ and UT, for turning a blind eye to polygamy and other issues involving the FLDS and other similar groups. For example, women attemtping to leave these groups often lose in custody battles or in their attempts to obtain restraining orders against husbands, because the judge is sympathetic to the group. This, I feel, is due to a religious belief in ultimate polygamy (Doctrines and Covenants 132), a family history of polygamy within many mainstream Mormon families and just the belief that these are quaint people living an old-fashioned, pure life and should be left alone, like their great-grand parents. I also think there is a tendency among many Mormons to deny some of the more horrific things happening in polygamist Mormon offshoot cults because they are afraid of the bad publicity and the eventual association of the mainstream church with these strange groups. Mormons have been working hard to demonstrate that they are just like every other religion and every time some wacko group gets publicity, they feel the heat too. Think of the presidential election. I think Mitt did not have a chance because of his religion, which is a shame. One's religion should not matter as long as they uphold democracy. But, people are too suspicious of Mormons and I feel, unfairly so. Okay, a bit too much blabbering from me. I just hope the judge is aware of how the religion expert's own background has the potential for coloring his viewpoints.

[Ladybass0711]

13 charter buses standing by in nearby Eden, Texas. State officials won't comment if they plan to relocate children again.

http://myeldorado.net/

[gitana1]

Wow, I was way late in my reply. I'm so happy with Texas!!!!!!!! Yeahh for the kids!!!

[Ladybass0711]

13 charter buses standing by in nearby Eden, Texas. State officials won't comment if they plan to relocate children again.

http://myeldorado.net/

My guess is this. Now that they have custody of the children, my bet is they are going to move the kids again to a undisclosed location, cause they fear of the reprucussions from this hearing.

[Truly]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/04/18/texas-trial.html

Some of the more than 400 children taken from a West Texas polygamist compound are Canadian citizens, a state official said Friday.

Angie Voss, who is with Texas Child Protection Services, didn't say how many are Canadian or give their ages or sex. Voss said they would remain in state custody regardless of their citizenship.

International Trafficking in Children for Sexual Purposes. Busted! :behindbar

I wonder how this came to light? Did the kids say they were sent by their parents to the compound in Texas? Did their beautiful Canadian accent tip off CPS?

I have my doubts whether any of the 'real' parents are fit for custody. Even the fathers who had their children reassigned had probably broken laws. And any 'real' parent who would ship their child to live with a bunch of child molestors does not deserve to have their child returned either. I think we will discover that the Stepford wives who have been paraded out on TV are not the 'real' mothers of these kids at all!

[galvino]

Amen, Truly!

[golfmom]

International Trafficking in Children for Sexual Purposes. Busted! :behindbar

Truly, I'm really hoping that's why the FBI has gotten involved.

[SuziQ]

gitana1, the judges that rule against the women in court were more than likely FLDS themselves. The divorce and child custody proceedings were for the most part handled in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Az.

I'm not sure how polygamy in the afterlife would work out for LDS members as they can only be sealed to one person at a time. The issue of who's going to end up with who in heaven...1st wife, 2nd wife, blended families, etc is a debate that goes on in other religions, not just LDS.

[mollymalone]

My guess is this. Now that they have custody of the children, my bet is they are going to move the kids again to a undisclosed location, cause they fear of the reprucussions from this hearing.That's what I thought they might do. Probably the best idea but you can be sure someone from FLDS will be following those buses to see where they go.

[barb0301]

13 charter buses standing by in nearby Eden, Texas. State officials won't comment if they plan to relocate children again.

http://myeldorado.net/

My guess would be that they are going to move them, and possibly split them up to different locations, as quickly as possible, now that the decision has been made. They are going to need to make it as difficult as possible for the "parents" to interfere in any way. That means no cell phones, etc.

This is going to be a very difficult night for the children I am afraid.

[Ladybass0711]

My guess would be that they are going to move them, and possibly split them up to different locations, as quickly as possible, now that the decision has been made. They are going to need to make it as difficult as possible for the "parents" to interfere in any way. That means no cell phones, etc.

This is going to be a very difficult night for the children I am afraid.


I beleive that they will seperate the mothers from the kids during this relocation!

Thats what happened during the last relocation, they seperated those mothers with children older then 5.

[gitana1]

Linda7NJ: I think the reason the girls outnumber the boys is because the boys are often expelled in this community (Lost Boys) and/or they are sent to do construction around the country at very young ages, in teams. These people break a lot of child labor laws in this regard and the work environment for young males can be very dangerous but people hire their crews because they are cheap. I also think many of the boys were not brought to Eldorado but remained in AZ/UT because only the select, inner circle of Jeffs and company was invited. They don't need the competetion from a bunch of young men. While I have heard reports of boys disappearing or dying in mysterious, unreported accidents among the FLDS, I don't think that has happened on a large scale in this community and it may not have happened at all in Eldorado if that's what you may be thinking. I could be wrong, though.

[mollymalone]

gitana1, the judges that rule against the women in court were more than likely FLDS themselves. The divorce and child custody proceedings were for the most part handled in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Az.

I'm not sure how polygamy in the afterlife would work out for LDS members as they can only be sealed to one person at a time. The issue of who's going to end up with who in heaven...1st wife, 2nd wife, blended families, etc is a debate that goes on in other religions, not just LDS.I read recently that LDS members are sealed to their spouse, and if there is a divorce, the man remains sealed to the wife and to any further spouse that he marries in the afterlife. The wife however, does not. She can only be sealed to the current spouse.

I suspect the women we've seen on news and in court were handpicked to be out there saying exactly what they were told to say.

[Leila]

Linda-
You are right. If they are so 'concerned' about their own kids, they will submit to testing, but I'll bet that most will refuse and deflect their refusal to do so as an expression of their constitutional rights. They will now hide behind the constitution that they so readily abuse and flaunt, and show that their desire to perpetuate their 'beliefs' are more important than the actual welfare of their children!

I bet a lot of the men refuse the DNA testing. If one of those men is 40-years-old and is the father of a baby that belongs to a 14-year-old mother, they're going to refuse the DNA testing because it would be followed by rape charges.

[mollymalone]

Linda7NJ: I think the reason the girls outnumber the boys is because the boys are often expelled in this community (Lost Boys) and/or they are sent to do construction around the country at very young ages, in teams. These people break a lot of child labor laws in this regard and the work environment for young males can be very dangerous but people hire their crews because they are cheap. I also think many of the boys were not brought to Eldorado but remained in AZ/UT because only the select, inner circle of Jeffs and company was invited. They don't need the competetion from a bunch of young men. While I have heard reports of boys disappearing or dying in mysterious, unreported accidents among the FLDS, I don't think that has happened on a large scale in this community and it may not have happened at all in Eldorado if that's what you may be thinking. I could be wrong, though.Absolutely. Jeffs ordered the people he wanted in that compound to go to Texas and the rest remained behind. There's probably a lot of girls and boys who were split from their families during that move.

[mollymalone]

I bet a lot of the men refuse the DNA testing. If one of those men is 40-years-old and is the father of a baby that belongs to a 14-year-old mother, they're going to refuse the DNA testing because it would be followed by rape charges.More than just rape charges. Some of them could end up on incest charges, just like their prophet. Bigamy charges and who knows what else could be in the wings.

[Ladybass0711]

Eden Texas is an hour away from San Angelo. Maybe they are gonna get them out of San Angelo??

[galvino]

Molly-

That is why I think that they will try to hide behind the constitution and not submit to DNA-

[biggirl]

All of the posters on the last few pages have been so knowledgeable. It has been fascinating reading here the last few days. THANK YOU WS for always telling it like it is.:clap:

[mollymalone]

Molly-

That is why I think that they will try to hide behind the constitution and not submit to DNA-Probably will, but that won't get them their children back.

[SuziQ]

I read recently that LDS members are sealed to their spouse, and if there is a divorce, the man remains sealed to the wife and to any further spouse that he marries in the afterlife. The wife however, does not. She can only be sealed to the current spouse.

I suspect the women we've seen on news and in court were handpicked to be out there saying exactly what they were told to say.

My understanding is that only applies in the event that a spouse has died and a widower/remarries and is sealed to the current spouse. That's still the same confusion many religions have about who ends up with who in the afterlife.

I don't understand your comment of having handpicked women regarding what I posted.

ETA: I also know both men and women who have been unsealed from their marriages during divorce.

[galvino]

Molly-xactly. and thank God!

[Ladybass0711]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

New updates

5:04 p.m. — The female clients are declining to testify.

[mollymalone]

My understanding is that only applies in the event that a spouse has died and a widower/remarries and is sealed to the current spouse. That's still the same confusion many religions have about who ends up with who in the afterlife.

I don't understand your comment of having handpicked women regarding what I posted.

ETA: I also know both men and women who have been unsealed from their marriages during divorce.I bow to your knowledge. It was in an article I read.

The comment about the women in the courtroom/new being handpicked was just an observation on my part. :)

[mollymalone]

The judge thanks all members of the bar for their work and cooperation. She announces her decision that
the children should not return to the ranch. She says this is the beginning.

Hearings will begin June 5, but they will not be en mass. The court orders maternity and paternity
testing for each child. On Monday, a mobile lab at the fairgrounds will test the DNA of all the children
and mothers there.

Parents are entitled to an attorney, whether or not they can afford it, she notes.

[SuziQ]

I bow to your knowledge. It was in an article I read.

The comment about the women in the courtroom/new being handpicked was just an observation on my part. :)

Ah thanks, I thought I missed something! lol.

[golfmom]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

New updates

5:04 p.m. — The female clients are declining to testify.

Well I hope that includes the uni-brow lady. As quiet and secretive as everyone is, that is one lady that won't shut up.

[Trino]

I don't think this topic has been addressed. Since many women remain with the men at the compound, what's to keep them from getting pregnant? Has no one thought this may be in the "works" by FLDS?

[mollymalone]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

New updates

5:04 p.m. — The female clients are declining to testify.
Did you read Lucille and Lori's testimony?


One attorney steps forward and says she represents a child with Lori’s son’s name, but she says Lori is not the mother she interviewed. Lori says her husband does not have any other wives that she knows of, and she didn’t know of any abuse happening in her family."Who owns your home?" the prosecution asks. "I don’t know," she answers Lori went to college and was an EMT.

An attorney says she tried to identify Lucille’s son, Wendell, but could not find a matching name. Lucille says she did not provide identification to CPS right away. But she says she did allow CPS to photograph Wendell and do a physical examination of him

[mollymalone]

I don't think this topic has been addressed. Since many women remain with the men at the compound, what's to keep them from getting pregnant? Has no one thought this may be in the "works" by FLDS?They might even have new assigned wives by now who are remaining in the other locations. Some of the women looked as if they were past childbearing age, but the others looked able.

[Ladybass0711]

They might even have new assigned wives by now who are remaining in the other locations. Some of the women looked as if they were past childbearing age, but the others looked able.

and these children will probably be taken away to..

[SuziQ]

Well I hope that includes the uni-brow lady. As quiet and secretive as everyone is, that is one lady that won't shut up.

Omg, does that unibrow bother you as much as it does to me? It's all I see when she talks. It's very distracting.

[golfmom]

Omg, does that unibrow bother you as much as it does to me? It's all I see when she talks. It's very distracting.

I can't stand it! I want to pull out tweezers and start plucking! :banghead:

[mollymalone]

and these children will probably be taken away to..IF they were to stay in Texas.

[golfmom]

There are just so many contradictions in her testimony, I don't even know where to begin.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/18/dispatch-from-the-flds-hearing-a-mothers-story/#more-717

[biggirl]

I can't stand it! I want to pull out tweezers and start plucking! :banghead:

Okay guys, I was having lunch with co workers today and I said "how shallow can I be?? I look at this woman giving an interview and I do not hear a word she says, I cannot stop focusing on her unibrow!" :eek:

I sometimes just read here and because I usually agree or see everything I would say already stated, I just read. I just had to jump in here. Sorry could not help myself.

[Trino]

Larry King and Anderson Cooper both showed the mothers. Where are the fathers? Has someone interviewed them?

[jilly]

I don't know about anyone else, but I wonder what's going on in that compound right now. I am very concerned for these women.

Just listening to AC and someone was saying that some of these women have said they will do anything to get their children back - even if they have to leave the compound.

They're probably just saying anything but now that the Judge has made this order today....I just don't know.

[biggirl]

Larry King and Anderson Cooper both showed the mothers. Where are the fathers? Has someone interviewed them?
I bet they are packing their bags to get out of town. DNA is really a scary thing to these child molesters.

[mollymalone]

GRETA VAN SUSTERN SHOW:

They're trying to get mainstream Mormon families that might have an understanding of their culture a bit better. There is a population of Mormons in the panhandle. They might open their homes to mothers as well as to children.

Kris Guiterrez: One thing that struck me, three of the mothers took the stand, Marilyn Jeffs took the stand, I'm willing to sign papers that state she won't marry until 18, I will leave the ranch if I can have my daughter. When she was asked about her sisters and her sister's children, how old were they, and she had to pause.
There were more than 20 girls that have children or are pregnant. There is a 13 year old who had a child.

GRETA: Does the defense intend to go to federal court and get an injunction against the state?
Rod Parker Lawyer for FLDS: we'll do something, we don't know what yet but we will do something. It's shocking. The allegation of abuse it's that they're being indoctrinated into their parents religion. You have pregnant teenagers in every high school in America. There aren't 20 girls presently, that was a document of 20 girls over a ten year period of time and not in Texas. The 13 year old was based on an oral statement 10 years ago and we don't know if they corroborated it.

My understanding is that there are 5 minors who are pregnant or have children among the group. I don't have any information as to who the father's were. The fathers were 19 or 20 and they were only a couple years older than them and they were monogamous and it's not child abuse for a 19 year old and a 16 year old to get together.

Patrick O'Fiel: I have not got a chance to talk to second client. His first client is a boy. Neither one of them have been named in the lawsuit or in the petition. We have to notify the parents that have not been served we have to serve them of the pending custody suit and find out who their parents are. There is some discrepancy about who their fathers are. We don't know if that's biological or spiritual father.

No I'm not a member of FLDS, it is pro bono. There is some discussion about writs and filing things in federal courts, some attornies and I are going to get together and decide what to do. There is hearing monday and testing on Tuesday so we have to move fast.

[golfmom]

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/18/dispatch-from-the-flds-hearing-a-mothers-story/#more-717

Cross examination. Merlyn Jeffs testifies:

-She has not witnessed any marriages at YFZ ranch since she has been there in 2004.

-She has a sister who’s been married since 2004, she’s 19 now.

-Can’t be exact on how old her sister’s baby is… estimates 2 years old.

-Has another sister who she believes is 18, remembers congratulating her when she got married. -Sister was married more than 1 year ago, her daughter is walking.

-Is not familiar with any of the marriages of any other women on the ranch.

-Was unaware of the legal age to marry

[mollymalone]

There are just so many contradictions in her testimony, I don't even know where to begin.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/18/dispatch-from-the-flds-hearing-a-mothers-story/#more-717She says she'll do anything, sign papers agreeing not to have her daughter marry until 18, leave the ranch and work etc.. and then this: "she will have her child wait to be married, if the prophet says her daughter was able to marry, at 15." So she's basically saying that Jeffs calls the shots and says when they can marry.

Then she says she didn't know the legal age to marry.

[mollymalone]

Larry King and Anderson Cooper both showed the mothers. Where are the fathers? Has someone interviewed them?
Trino, all I've seen is one man who was briefly asked questions as he walked into court. I've read about one other man who said he was a potato farmer and didn't know about all this, just wanted his kids back. Other than that, the "Bishop" Merrill Jessop is no where to be found, neither are any of the other men in the hierarchy. From photos posted I've seen some men, but none of them were the older ones.

[golfmom]

She has one sister that married at 15 years old and another that she's being very evasive about ... she "believes" is 18 and has been married "over a year" and the baby is "walking". That's pretty dodgey. Her sister may be 17 and married for three years, with a two year old baby.

[SuziQ]

Thanks Golfmom and Molly, I bet the testimony was pretty transparent to the judge.

Biggirl, Colorado City and Hildale emptied out pretty fast after Jeffs was caught. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Texas compound empties out now too. Obviously moving to another state didn't help them. I'm thinking Mexico since Canada is now watching their group there now.

[golfmom]

Thanks Golfmom and Molly, I bet the testimony was pretty transparent to the judge.

Biggirl, Colorado City and Hildale emptied out pretty fast after Jeffs was caught. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Texas compound empties out now too. Obviously moving to another state didn't help them. I'm thinking Mexico since Canada is now watching their group there now.

Yeah, we haven't even really delved into what's being going on in Canada. They've certainly had their own issues with this group.

[mollymalone]

ANDERSON COOPER: He asked her about the way the women spoke because he and others had noticed they all sounded the same.

Carolyn Jessop: they pattern their posture and their voices after Warren Jeffs.

Anderson: the mothers sleep in the room with the kids.

Jessop: I had my own bedroom, it was the private place I had, every place else we shared.
The children had their own bedrooms. That would cause mental health issues when you don't have any space you can call yours.

Different from when I was there. We were allowed to put personal expression and design into where we lived, although limited, and depending on finances, but this place was devoid of that, it was like an institution. No feminine touches that we used to have in the home.

[mollymalone]

Yeah, we haven't even really delved into what's being going on in Canada. They've certainly had their own issues with this group.They've been exchanging children with the sect in Canada and I'm sure there are children who are U.S. citizens who are currently up there. Although that's going to be a mess untangling that as well.

[SuziQ]

The LDS church issued a strong statement today for the media to quit using the term Mormon when referring the polygamist sects. I wonder what they will say to W. John Walsh regarding what he said today? The church rightly or wrongly has not been shy about going after their own scholars. Most of which had turned into renegades. BTW, I think he's a confused idiot. Comparing them to Baptists and Catholics? Sheesh.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html

Religious scholar John Walsh also addressed a particularly damning piece of evidence: At least one bed found inside a temple that was allegedly used to consummate such marriages immediately after the ceremony.
"Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself," said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. "The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down."
But, he said, "To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple."
Walsh said he also studies the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy a century ago and has no ties to the FLDS. He said without the polygamy aspect, the FLDS would resemble the Baptist or Catholic religions.

[mollymalone]

The LDS church issued a strong statement today for the media to quit using the term Mormon when referring the polygamist sects. I wonder what they will say to W. John Walsh regarding what he said today? The church rightly or wrongly has not been shy about going after their own scholars. Most of which had turned into renegades. BTW, I think he's a confused idiot. Comparing them to Baptists and Catholics? Sheesh.
SNIP."[/B] [/B]Oh yeah, I can see people of those faiths talking like warren jeffs and wearing pastels cause one man said so. Uh huh. :chicken: How fast do you think they'll drop the proverbial brick on him?

I bet he's never been in an FLDS temple and wasn't privy to what goes on in it.

[txsvicki]

Some lady is saying on Nancy Grace that the kids have been taught to be very racist and shouldn't be in any non caucasian foster homes. Good luck with that! Even if new foster parents apply, they still have to be trained and get certified unless some rules are bent for this case. I've seen some really nice black ladies at the doctor's office and they would be good for the kids whether they're taught to fear other races or not. At least they would be safe. If they live in and stay in Texas they're going to be with many Hispanic kids, because they will have to go to public school and will possibly have other races of kids in the same foster home.

[Ca-Sun]

Thanks Golfmom and Molly, I bet the testimony was pretty transparent to the judge.

Biggirl, Colorado City and Hildale emptied out pretty fast after Jeffs was caught. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Texas compound empties out now too. Obviously moving to another state didn't help them. I'm thinking Mexico since Canada is now watching their group there now.You are probably right. I think it will be difficult for them to stay in the present compound. If they relocated in Mexico, where would they get money? I thought I heard/read they are all getting welfare checks. If true, I'm wondering how they managed to do that. Maybe something like, "We live in a compound where we aren't allowed to do anything except cook, clean, and and have babies. We don't like the 'outside' government and we don't live by those rules. There is only one exception; money. Please send us money each month so we can continue to live in the lifestyle we are accustomed. You will need to increase the amount each month because babies are born all the time. Thank you very much." Why does the government pay them? :waitasec:

[mollymalone]

You are probably right. I think it will be difficult for them to stay in the present compound. If they relocated in Mexico, where would they get money? I thought I heard/read they are all getting welfare checks. If true, I'm wondering how they managed to do that. Maybe something like, "We live in a compound where we aren't allowed to do anything except cook, clean, and and have babies. We don't like the 'outside' government and we don't live by those rules. There is only one exception; money. Please send us money each month so we can continue to live in the lifestyle we are accustomed. You will need to increase the amount each month because babies are born all the time. Thank you very much." Why does the government pay them? :waitasec:
These people aren't stupid by any means and they've obviously come up with a forumla for filling out the apps with plausible scenarios, ie.. single parent, doesn't know who the father was or he's long gone and they give a false name for the father etc..

If they go down to Mexico they'll still be funded by those who remain in other states. I suspect those from Tx will filter out into the other states, Colorado for instance, Idaho or Nevada since AZ and Utah have been looking into them.

[SuziQ]

Oh yeah, I can see people of those faiths talking like warren jeffs and wearing pastels cause one man said so. Uh huh. :chicken: How fast do you think they'll drop the proverbial brick on him?

I bet he's never been in an FLDS temple and wasn't privy to what goes on in it.

I've been googling John Walsh and although he's published a few books and and papers about the LDS church I've yet to see anything he's done on the FLDS...oh yeah, he got that info from the media.

Other religions worship god, the FLDS worships their prophet. How is that similiar?

[Spydernweb]

Can someone please explain this to me? I've seen the propoganda come into my home video on the news. The Lady (Unibrow) claims she sleeps in the same room as her daughter. If she sleeps in the same room as her daughter does her "husband" also come in there when its time for them to attempt to "multiply"? To me that alone would be abusive, no child, esp a small child should be in the same room as their "Parents" in those intimate momments. I didnt see a Husband's room on her tour, but I sure hope their is one!

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[mollymalone]

I've been googling John Walsh and although he's published a few books and and papers about the LDS church I've yet to see anything he's done on the FLDS...oh yeah, he got that info from the media.

Other religions worship god, the FLDS worships their prophet. How is that similiar?Unless he's referring to God (or Jesus) as a prophet? As far as the tenents of the two religions and the rituals that are followed by both I don't see where they're similar to FLDS.

[mollymalone]

Can someone please explain this to me? I've seen the propoganda come into my home video on the news. The Lady (Unibrow) claims she sleeps in the same room as her daughter. If she sleeps in the same room as her daughter does her "husband" also come in there when its time for them to attempt to "multiply"? To me that alone would be abusive, no child, esp a small child should be in the same room as their "Parents" in those intimate momments. I didnt see a Husband's room on her tour, but I sure hope their is one!

JMHO

Hugs,

SpyderSpyder, in the living room, you noticed there was the one big chair that looked like a recliner? And the other light blue ones in semi-circles in front of that chair? The head of the household probably has his own house/room where he and the first wife lives and the other wives come to service him at his beck and call. I wouldn't be surprised if the first wife is the one who is sent to fetch them.

[SuziQ]

Unless he's referring to God (or Jesus) as a prophet? As far as the tenents of the two religions and the rituals that are followed by both I don't see where they're similar to FLDS.

Lol, I wonder what religion the judge is (if she has one) and what she thought of that comment. Was she sitting there biting her tongue?

[mollymalone]

Lol, I wonder what religion the judge is (if she has one) and what she thought of that comment. Was she sitting there biting her tongue? Maybe this is what she and others were thinking? :slap:

[Truly]

The LDS church issued a strong statement today for the media to quit using the term Mormon when referring the polygamist sects. I wonder what they will say to W. John Walsh regarding what he said today? The church rightly or wrongly has not been shy about going after their own scholars. Most of which had turned into renegades. BTW, I think he's a confused idiot. Comparing them to Baptists and Catholics? Sheesh.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html

Religious scholar John Walsh also addressed a particularly damning piece of evidence: At least one bed found inside a temple that was allegedly used to consummate such marriages immediately after the ceremony.
"Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself," said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. "The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down."
But, he said, "To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple."
Walsh said he also studies the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy a century ago and has no ties to the FLDS. He said without the polygamy aspect, the FLDS would resemble the Baptist or Catholic religions.


The following quotes are from the san angelo link. They were very different from the quotes above.

Attorneys for fathers call their first witness.
He reels off his education, including a doctorate in religious studies concentrating on Mormonism.
There’s nothing in any of the foundational Scripture that gives the proper age for marriage, he says under questioning.
FLDS considers the Bible the word of God, he says.
As part of the Bible, they teach that women should submit to their husbands, the expert says. But, like Catholic women and other women who adhere to various religions, FLDS women have interpreted that in different ways at different times.
And FLDS women can choose when to get married, he said. Thousands of FLDS members live in the United States, and they don’t all believe the same thing, the expert says.
"The family practices of the FLDS vary from family to family," he says.
Not all of them are polygamists, either, the expert says.
He has studied all this for 18 years, along with studying Judaism, Catholicism and many different Western religions, he said.


The child’s attorney asks about the bed in the temple, an item mentioned in many news reports.
The bed is there, the expert says, because the FLDS members might fast, and when hundreds of people fast, there might be incidences of fainting.
To his knowledge, he says, no sex has occurred in the temple.


Suzi, do you by any chance have a link to the statement which the LDS released? I admit I am unclear as to the distinction between the scriptures of the LDS and the Fundamentalist LDS. Although I see that the press has taken pains to report that they are different, don't the FLDS still call themselves Mormons? Thanks.:)

[SuziQ]

Maybe this is what she and others were thinking? :slap:

Lol, most likely.

[Spydernweb]

Spyder, in the living room, you noticed there was the one big chair that looked like a recliner? And the other light blue ones in semi-circles in front of that chair? The head of the household probably has his own house/room where he and the first wife lives and the other wives come to service him at his beck and call. I wouldn't be surprised if the first wife is the one who is sent to fetch them.

Thank you sooo much for the quick and nice response Molly. Sadly I think all this is mind boggling. I cannot imagine the hell its gonna be to even figure out which child legally belongs to which set of "Parents". Hopefully the FLDS will comply nicely with the the Judges order for DNA from Everyone.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[mollymalone]

Thank you sooo much for the quick and nice response Molly. Sadly I think all this is mind boggling. I cannot imagine the hell its gonna be to even figure out which child legally belongs to which set of "Parents". Hopefully the FLDS will comply nicely with the the Judges order for DNA from Everyone.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder:) You're welcome Spyder.
It is boggling, the sheer amount of work LE/CPS is having to do with their investigation, going through the documents, the genealogies and other media. Then the labs with the dna testing, all the court personnel who have to do the scheduling etc. Not to mention those who are caring for the children, the medical personnel too.

[SuziQ]

The following quotes are from the san angelo link. They were very different from the quotes above.



Suzi, do you by any chance have a link to the statement which the LDS released? I admit I am unclear as to the distinction between the scriptures of the LDS and the Fundamentalist LDS. Although I see that the press has taken pains to report that they are different, don't the FDLS still call themselves Mormons? Thanks.:)

Here i