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Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:02 AM
Ok continuing on from here (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463&page=22)


DUH! I forgot to put #4 Sorry guys, maybe a mod could fix it for me please?

Floh
04-17-2008, 01:28 AM
Ok continuing on from here (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463&page=22)


DUH! I forgot to put #4 Sorry guys, maybe a mod could fix it for me please?

I think it would be good to PM a mod to ask this, rather than hope a mod reads the post?

thanks for the new thread.

Leila
04-17-2008, 01:30 AM
Thanks Ladybass.

I was out most of the afternoon and had company this evening, so I've missed some reports. I have a question. Is the hearing tomorrow going to be televised by one of the major media outlets like CNN or Fox News?

cheko1
04-17-2008, 01:31 AM
Thanks Ladybass!
Yes I am quite certain the men will pop a cork. Having to listen to a lady judge. If they don't get the kids back they may have a revolution on there hands.

Ladybass what do you think?

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:36 AM
Thanks Ladybass!
Yes I am quite certain the men will pop a cork. Having to listen to a lady judge. If they don't get the kids back they may have a revolution on there hands.

Ladybass what do you think?


The men will most likely keep quiet and let the woman talk. I would hate and at the same time love to be in the courtroom when the court awards custody to the state. I beleive we will be in for an all out WAR when that happens!

The men are cowards, but once they realize they are now gonna be stopped there will be h*ll to pay I am sure!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:37 AM
Thanks Ladybass.

I was out most of the afternoon and had company this evening, so I've missed some reports. I have a question. Is the hearing tomorrow going to be televised by one of the major media outlets like CNN or Fox News?

I highly doubt that the court hearing will be televised cause there is a gag order in place, however I am sure it will be the main story in the news tomorow! Thank god, cause I am sick and tired of politics, election, and the pope. (No offense to anyone else)

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 01:37 AM
Do you know why the FLDS men want the children back so badly?

.......................................

Imagine 15 wives and no kids to distract them!

barb0301
04-17-2008, 01:38 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Do you know why the FLDS men want the children back so badly?

.......................................

Imagine 15 wives and no kids to distract them!

Leila
04-17-2008, 01:39 AM
Thanks Ladybass!
Yes I am quite certain the men will pop a cork. Having to listen to a lady judge. If they don't get the kids back they may have a revolution on there hands.

Ladybass what do you think?

Can you imagine the mens reaction to a woman judge like Judge Judy! :)

Floh
04-17-2008, 01:39 AM
I highly doubt that the court hearing will be televised cause there is a gag order in place, however I am sure it will be the main story in the news tomorow! Thank god, cause I am sick and tired of politics, election, and the pope. (No offense to anyone else)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Floh
04-17-2008, 01:40 AM
Do you know why the FLDS men want the children back so badly?



The boys for construction work and the girls to barter with for more under age sex for themselves. :(

children are currency to them.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 01:41 AM
Can you imagine them taking the witness stand saying do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth & nothing but the truth so help you God?

As long as as you don't ask me where my husband is.

How old were you when you got married? Ummmmm I don't know, but my husband told me to say 21.

Did you have any kids when you were 16 or under? No but my husband did
In the eyes of our church we weren't considered a Mom.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 01:45 AM
The men will most likely keep quiet and let the woman talk. I would hate and at the same time love to be in the courtroom when the court awards custody to the state. I beleive we will be in for an all out WAR when that happens!

The men are cowards, but once they realize they are now gonna be stopped there will be h*ll to pay I am sure!

My thoughts exactly...they're sitting back now, making plans. Not really thinking that many kids won't be returning. When the state keeps them they will come out with a vengence. It will be ugly.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 01:46 AM
Can you imagine the mens reaction to a woman judge like Judge Judy! :)


Priceless for sure!!! LMAO

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:48 AM
The boys for construction work and the girls to barter with for move under age sex for themselves. :(

children are currency to them.

Defintly head on right there!!!!!

cheko1
04-17-2008, 01:50 AM
Do you know why the FLDS men want the children back so badly?

.......................................

Imagine 15 wives and no kids to distract them!


They'll all be pregnant again real soon, men will be bed jumping from one mom to the next.

They need the kids back to get there monthly welfare checks.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 02:03 AM
They'll all be pregnant again real soon, men will be bed jumping from one mom to the next.

They need the kids back to get there monthly welfare checks.

And those kids will be taken away as well, I betcha!

barb0301
04-17-2008, 02:10 AM
"The Texas Civil Rights Project on Wednesday asked Attorney General Greg Abbott to create an emergency panel of judges and professors to examine the raid and removal of the children, which its director, James Harrington, said appeared to be "prompted more by intolerance for a religious group" than to actual evidence."

From the following link:http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA041708.01B.PolygamistHearing.367a967.html

Leila
04-17-2008, 02:14 AM
Do you know why the FLDS men want the children back so badly?

.......................................

Imagine 15 wives and no kids to distract them!

I would imagine that there's a real concern on the part of the FLDS men that if those children start talking, they might expose ritual abuse - physical and sexual abuse.

If the authorities find that some of the children are alone at the YFZ ranch and their biological parents are in other FLDS communities in other states, that might open up those communities to closer scrutiny and the parents in those other communities to being charged with abandonment and participating in transporting children across state lines for the purpose of sex.

Question for everyone..............do you think any of those children will be allowed to return to the YFZ ranch?

gitana1
04-17-2008, 02:16 AM
I'm stoked to see that pretty much everyone on this thread is now completely educated about this group of monsters and that those defending their "rights" have become somewhat silent after learning the truth about the FLDS and how the mothers are either brainwashed, complict in the abuse or simply too beaten down and controlled to protect their children. Regardless of why, these moms cannot protect their kids and are likely a danger to them as they will either help the abusers abuse them, will abuse them themselves, or will stand by and do nothing. Having these mothers housed with their children where they can continue to tell them to be silent about the abuse or they will got to hell, would be a tragic mistake and I'm glad Texas stopped that. They scare me!! That one who kept smiling: Talk about Stepford wife!! She looks like a robot. And all of them seem so rehearsed and phony. The fact is, in these homes/communities, you have a bunch of children either raising themselves because some of the sisterwives refuse to do so, or they are too mentally ill to do so after years of degradation and abuse, leaving the lesser sister wives to handle the task alone along with the regular slave labor most of these women must endure. One or two women cannot properly raise 20-40 kids alone, with love and attention to each. So, there is chaos and a lack of parenting. Couple that with the fact that these same, neglected children then get married at 13, 14, 15, 16, and have children at the same time, when they are too young to be equipped to do so, you open the door for even more neglect or abuse. Carolyn Jessop talked about watching mothers routinely slap their small children as hard as they could and this was pre-Warren Jeffs era. Imagine the pressure these women are under, with often evil sister wives and evil husbands, not enough food, little warmth or affection from anyone else (how many have described life in the FLDS) and then one can see that abuse is even more likely to occur. My fear is that people will be fooled by the PR of this group and Texas will be pressured to wrap the case up and release these kids. I really hope it does not happen but I'm afraid it could.
By the way, did anyone happen to catch that on the video tour of the compound, the woman showed a picture of her kid as a baby and then said, "These are people who came to visit her when she was born." Those people appeared to be mostly children in the photo and I have no doubt they were the baby's siblings. These nuts are such liars and so revolting to me. After following the stories about the FLDS for years - I am obsessed - I am so happy that the truth about them is coming out, especially on this site where it's much too hard to bullsh*&t. You guys had it all figured out in a matter of days - what took me years to learn. Great sleuthing as always!!!!!!!!!!!!

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:17 AM
I would imagine that there's a real concern on the part of the FLDS men that if those children start talking, they might expose ritual abuse - physical and sexual abuse.

If the authorities find that some of the children are alone at the YFZ ranch and their biological parents are in other FLDS communities in other states, that might open up those communities to closer scrutiny and the parents in those other communities to being charged with abandonment and participating in transporting children across state lines for the purpose of sex.

Question for everyone..............do you think any of those children will be allowed to return to the YFZ ranch?Seriously, I don't know. It's going to depend on what was found at the ranch that proves the other children are at risk. Those that they can prove are underage and/or were abused, I doubt if they'll go back.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 02:21 AM
Seriously, I don't know. It's going to depend on what was found at the ranch that proves the other children are at risk. Those that they can prove are underage and/or were abused, I doubt if they'll go back.

I beleive that none will be returned. Due to the fact the kids are bound to be abused when returned home. With all the evidence they found and all the kids being pregnant, I highly doubt they will be returned.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:21 AM
I found someone who was actually put into the mental institution because she acted out.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=987099&page=1

As a teen, Laurene was married to an older man chosen by the sect named Val Jessop. He had already married Laurene's sister, so Laurene says she knew him "a bit." But she adds, "I always felt like I was an intruder." Laurene says Marie was bitterly jealous from day one, and was even present when she and her husband consummated the marriage. "He invited her into our bed," Laurene said. "She just hugged his back -- hugged him all the way through. Laurene says Marie soon began mistreating her children. She adds that Val did nothing to stop it, so she began acting out -- and he called the cops. She was taken to a mental institution in Flagstaff, Ariz., more than 200 miles away. The police were not interested in her side of the story, Laurene said."

"She was sent to the institution three more times."

Edited to add: She and others were sexually abused by her father, who has never thought that he did anything wrong.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:25 AM
I beleive that none will be returned. Due to the fact the kids are bound to be abused when returned home. With all the evidence they found and all the kids being pregnant, I highly doubt they will be returned.I can't see them returning any of them given that factor. But you never know. Question is, how many of the older boys or girls will return to the sect when they're old enough or able to run away? Or the flds members find out where they are and retrieve them or intimidate them into going back.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 02:25 AM
I would imagine that there's a real concern on the part of the FLDS men that if those children start talking, they might expose ritual abuse - physical and sexual abuse.

If the authorities find that some of the children are alone at the YFZ ranch and their biological parents are in other FLDS communities in other states, that might open up those communities to closer scrutiny and the parents in those other communities to being charged with abandonment and participating in transporting children across state lines for the purpose of sex.

Question for everyone..............do you think any of those children will be allowed to return to the YFZ ranch?

No, I don't think they will be allowed to return. At the very least, they won't be allowed to return for a very, very long time.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:27 AM
Leila, I think those men are more concerned by the fact that their bottom line in their finances is going to hurt. If each of them have several of their wives emoved along with the children, there goes the welfare funds. They're more concerned by the fact that if abuse is proven they will go to jail. I think some of the women are worried about that as well, given that they did nothing to report or stop the abuse.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:30 AM
This is the problem with the men in that community:
This is Lauren's father, who was convicted on the abuse and spent time in jail.

"He said at the time he didn't view his fondling of his daughters as abuse. It wasn't sexual, he said, claiming it was "on the same premise as our religion." "I had the idea that I was the big boss," he said. "I believed those children were mine." He compared his position to a farmer with his animals. But he also said "every intimacy which I had with them, they understood perfectly that if I did anything they didn't like, to tell me and I would not do it."

Laurene denies this. She says he told his daughters they "weren't normal if we didn't like it. And, that all men do that to their daughters."

Cooke continued: "I'd say it was consensual, whatever we were doing. I was not imposing on them."

Leila
04-17-2008, 03:06 AM
I hope the children won't be returning, but I fear that unless the children start opening up and tell about the abuse that's happened, the CPS won't have the evidence they need to present a solid case.

Because these children have been taught to obey their fathers, and all the men in the group, and their reverence for the men as figures of authority may supercede their sense of right and wrong, they may not be aware of what constitutes abuse.

Certainly the girls have been groomed to believe it's their duty to submit to the man chosen to be her "husband", and to start bearing children as soon as they reach puberty. They don't know that what's being done to them is sexual abuse and illegal.

I hope CPS is teaching what constitutes abuse in their interviews with the children.

LinasK
04-17-2008, 03:38 AM
This is the problem with the men in that community:
This is Lauren's father, who was convicted on the abuse and spent time in jail.

"He said at the time he didn't view his fondling of his daughters as abuse. It wasn't sexual, he said, claiming it was "on the same premise as our religion." "I had the idea that I was the big boss," he said. "I believed those children were mine." He compared his position to a farmer with his animals. But he also said "every intimacy which I had with them, they understood perfectly that if I did anything they didn't like, to tell me and I would not do it."

Laurene denies this. She says he told his daughters they "weren't normal if we didn't like it. And, that all men do that to their daughters."

Cooke continued: "I'd say it was consensual, whatever we were doing. I was not imposing on them.":sick::sick::sick: Okay, this makes me want to throw up!!!

Leila
04-17-2008, 04:18 AM
Something just occurred to me...............in that tour of Marilyn's home at the YFZ ranch, she showed the kitchen, living room, and 3 bedrooms.

In one bedroom, there were two sets of bunk beds and Marilyn said "this is my daughter's bed and I can hardly stand to sleep in here with her gone." In the next bedroom there were three beds and a set of bunk beds, and Marilyn explained that 5 older girls sleep in that bedroom. Then in the third bedroom, there were two double beds and a set of bunk beds and Marilyn said, "this is my mother's room and she sleeps here with three of her daughters. I count sleeping accommodations and beds for 13 people.

But, all those people are female. Not one male child in the household. Where do the male children sleep? And, even though there were sleeping accommodations for 13 people, the kitchen table had chairs for about twice that many, and the living room had chairs set up for at least 20 - 25 people. Very strange................

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 04:46 AM
She slept in her daughter's bedroom? And where did the hubby sleep?

Good Morning America on ABC is supposed to have a piece inside the compound this AM.

Leila
04-17-2008, 05:47 AM
She slept in her daughter's bedroom? And where did the hubby sleep?

Good Morning America on ABC is supposed to have a piece inside the compound this AM.


Yes.............she said she slept in her daughter's room, so I would guess in one of the bunk beds in that room. I have no idea where her husband slept. Maybe he has his own room, and the wives are rotated in and out of his room.

What I thought was strange, was that the kitchen and living room were set up to accommodate a lot more people than they had sleeping accommodations for.

Floh
04-17-2008, 06:16 AM
Does anyone have a direct link to Marilyn's tour? all links i've gone to on the last thread took me to the pope and any link on the site for the FLDS also took me to the pope. enough of the pope for me.

Floh
04-17-2008, 06:20 AM
I hope the children won't be returning, but I fear that unless the children start opening up and tell about the abuse that's happened, the CPS won't have the evidence they need to present a solid case.

Because these children have been taught to obey their fathers, and all the men in the group, and their reverence for the men as figures of authority may supercede their sense of right and wrong, they may not be aware of what constitutes abuse.

Certainly the girls have been groomed to believe it's their duty to submit to the man chosen to be her "husband", and to start bearing children as soon as they reach puberty. They don't know that what's being done to them is sexual abuse and illegal.

I hope CPS is teaching what constitutes abuse in their interviews with the children.

Surely the circumstances show clearly the children are under duress not to speak out which calls for logic on any decision to send them back. the women have demonstrated with their television interviews they have been coached to spew the same junk and so they are under duress. logic, again.

Moe
04-17-2008, 07:16 AM
Will the fathers identify themselves as such today? I hope the welfare and medicaid offices have someone watching the proceedings today. The cult stand to loose not only the children, but big $$$$$ too. I have a feeling we will be sick to our stomachs by the end of today.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 07:44 AM
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8955144
CEDAR CITY - For Bruce Wisan, the raid on a polygamous ranch in west Texas is bringing positive results 1,200 miles away, in southern Utah and northern Arizona.
Finally, after months of cajoling, hundreds of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are signing agreements with Wisan to remain in their homes in Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.
"The timing of the raid was wonderful," said Wisan, the court-appointed fiduciary overseeing the sect's communal property trust.
Wisan credits the raid, in part, with persuading more than 220 residents to suddenly sign occupancy pacts and pay their $100-a-month assessments for utilities and infrastructure upgrades. If they hadn't done so, they risked eviction from their trust-held homes.

Trino
04-17-2008, 07:54 AM
I think today's hearing (Thursday) will see the children remain in custody. However, I think in the end the case will fall apart. The outcome may still hinge on the 16 year old girl who cannot be found.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4670370&page=3

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said there could potentially be criminal charges against sect members for alleged statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the church could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound and some of the evidence that could be suppressed.

In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:21 AM
I don't think that it matters one bit if the girl is found or not. Obviously LE found evidence of other crimes during their initial search of the compound ... enough that the FBI was called in and they also received a warrant to search.

The case doesn't hinge on the 16 year old girl. Besides, the family of the "18 year old girl" is trying to get her recognized as an adult so she can be "represented" by independent legal council. If she's 18 why does she need to be recognized as an adult? And, since when aren't children allowed their own private lawyer, if there family is willing and able to pay.

Hogwash!

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:27 AM
Here's the info on the "Sarah" that they think might be the initial caller. If she is indeed 18 years old, why does she need to be recognized as an adult? And, again, you do not need to be an adult to have a private attorney. :rolleyes:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8941294

Investigators have zeroed in on one Sarah in particular, Annette said. The girl, who has a 5-month-old daughter, is petite and looks young, so the investigators don't believe she is 18, she said. She declined to name the girl's husband, but said it is not Dale Evans Barlow, the Arizona man named in the initial arrest and search warrants.
.........
On Tuesday, 51st District Judge Barbara Walther rejected an attempt by this Sarah's family to have her recognized as an adult so she could be represented by a private attorney rather than an attorney ad litem.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 09:05 AM
I beleive that none will be returned. Due to the fact the kids are bound to be abused when returned home. With all the evidence they found and all the kids being pregnant, I highly doubt they will be returned.

I also doubt they'll be returned. Years from now if they try to return they'll be totally shunned by the elders of the ranch. They'll all have a taste of freedom & will be harder to be contolled. JMHO

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:39 AM
I think today's hearing (Thursday) will see the children remain in custody. However, I think in the end the case will fall apart. The outcome may still hinge on the 16 year old girl who cannot be found.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4670370&page=3

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, there could potentially be criminal charges against sect members for alleged statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the church could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound and some of the evidence that could be suppressed.

In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises.

In TX, a complaint about child abuse can be made anonymously, and CPS must investigate.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 09:43 AM
In TX, a complaint about child abuse can be made anonymously, and CPS must investigate.

And .... if they investigate and there isn't one child on the property, but they see a dead lady sitting on the couch and a meth lab in the Kitchen, they don't have to pretend they didn't see them.

Linda7NJ
04-17-2008, 09:47 AM
From the ap news wire

"Walther's courtroom is expected to be jammed with attorneys and parents, so a live video feed has been set up in nearby City Hall to allow the media and the public to watch the proceedings."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

anyone know where I can watch it?

StealthTheory
04-17-2008, 09:52 AM
This is all so sad and disgusting!
I understand the concern over them being persecuted for their religion but I don't think that's the case! We've known they were there for ages and didn't raid them.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 10:19 AM
This is all so sad and disgusting!
I understand the concern over them being persecuted for their religion but I don't think that's the case! We've known they were there for ages and didn't raid them.

I don't think they're being persecuted for the religon at all. They should ("ALL" men & "ALL" women) be held accountable for ANY child abuse the same as we are. I also don't buy the fact the women turned there heads the other way.

On one of the talk shows this morning this poly gal was saying someone in her family had 56 wives! SOOOOOOO many kids she never knew how many the guy had.

The priests from the Catholic religon were on trial. Just because they took a vow to be celebate & decided to molest boys & girls never saved them.. In abuse cases ignorance is not bliss they need prosecuted. I was a very devote Catholic before the priests & bishops were exposed. They were to be respected & a notch higher then all of us. Since all of this I quit the Church. That was my decision & hard to do.

Watching the fake, phoney FLDS ladies( term used lightly) on TV. Lieing to protect the abusers has turned my stomach. At first I felt sorry for them, as I have watched /I noticed how they pose there hands to give off the image they're shocked. No tears, no facial expressions,hand gestures only.

cheko1
04-17-2008, 10:22 AM
This is all so sad and disgusting!
I understand the concern over them being persecuted for their religion but I don't think that's the case! We've known they were there for ages and didn't raid them.

Welcome to Websleuths..... forgot my manners!!

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 12:10 PM
http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=8180579&nav=menu193_2

"Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott hinted today at possible bigamy prosecutions of wives and mothers from a West Texas polygamist commune.

In an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America," Abbott said the women of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints admitted to bigamy in nationally televised interviews yesterday.

He says "that also would be grounds for legal prosecution in the state of Texas."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 12:11 PM
I think today's hearing (Thursday) will see the children remain in custody. However, I think in the end the case will fall apart. The outcome may still hinge on the 16 year old girl who cannot be found.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4670370&page=3

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said there could potentially be criminal charges against sect members for alleged statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the church could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound and some of the evidence that could be suppressed.

In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises.


Morning everyone!

Trino- This has been posed to many people on cnn that are lawyers. They said they do not beelive the warrent will be thrown out. Because the officers, went in under the phone call, there was "Just cause" And when they got in there, they found all the other stuff going on. There is a special cause for this, just can't recall it right now,

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 12:27 PM
From the ap news wire

"Walther's courtroom is expected to be jammed with attorneys and parents, so a live video feed has been set up in nearby City Hall to allow the media and the public to watch the proceedings."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

anyone know where I can watch it?
As far as I know, no one has a camera in the courtroom because juvenile/court custody proceedings aren't shown for the protection and privacy of the child.

There will be reporters reporting on the various news programs and filming outside the courtroom I'm sure.

SewingDeb
04-17-2008, 12:33 PM
Hearing for children at polygamist retreat grinds to a halt

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

SewingDeb
04-17-2008, 12:39 PM
From the link I just posted:

A major issue will be how a home is defined - whether by the individual house each child lived in or by the larger ranch, said attorney Susan Hays, who represents a 2-year-old child. Under Texas law, if sexual abuse is occurring in a home and a parent does not stop it, then the parent can lose custodial rights.

The judge also must decide whether it's in the best interest of children who have lived insulated lives to be suddenly placed into mainstream society, Hays said.

Typically, each child would be given a separate hearing, but given the number of cases, it's likely the judge will have the state, the children's attorneys and the parents' attorneys make consolidated presentations, at least initially, said Harper Estes, president-elect of the state bar.

"You can't go one-by-one," Estes said.

Trino
04-17-2008, 12:44 PM
While I understand you cannot put a price on child abuse, this case is going to cost millions. Already the cult is lawyered up to the gills.

SewingDeb
04-17-2008, 12:47 PM
The hearing will take years at this rate. They should split up the cases and hear them one by one like they would in any abuse case. JMO.

LinasK
04-17-2008, 12:48 PM
The hearing will take years at this rate. They should split up the cases and hear them one by one like they would in any abuse case. JMO.

Why couldn't they conduct it like a class-action lawsuit?:confused:

Glow
04-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Hi gitana,

Several people here have expressed the same sentiment.


I'm stoked to see that pretty much everyone on this thread is now completely educated about this group of monsters and that those defending their "rights" have become somewhat silent


On the matter of those who don't agree being so silent....

Silence doesn't always mean there is nothing valid to say. Sometimes it indicates awareness that there is no hearer to speak to.

Jules
04-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Why couldn't they conduct it like a class-action lawsuit?:confused:

I would think that would be the most logical option. Of course, how often does the government do anything logical?? ;)

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 01:02 PM
Why couldn't they conduct it like a class-action lawsuit?:confused:I would think because it's children involved.


Flora Jessop: "After trying to leave I spent 3 years in solitary confinement while they tried to beat the devil out of me."

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 01:37 PM
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271118,00.html

The other FLDS enclaves are feeling the scrutiny

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:41 PM
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271118,00.html

The other FLDS enclaves are feeling the scrutiny


They need to be!


Guys can I ask that only court stuff be posted in this area and any other stuff be posted here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2143781&posted=1#post2143781) please. I know there is alot to say, but Lets try to keep this as organized as possible. Sorry all, just know that there are some of us that are not able to follow the court proceedings due to work and other committments, It would be handy to have one thread dedicated to court stuff, and one thread deidcated to other non court stuff, in my opinion.

Thank you!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 01:54 PM
I think today's hearing (Thursday) will see the children remain in custody. However, I think in the end the case will fall apart. The outcome may still hinge on the 16 year old girl who cannot be found.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4670370&page=3

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said there could potentially be criminal charges against sect members for alleged statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the church could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound and some of the evidence that could be suppressed.

In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises.

Law enforcement officers obtained a warrant authorizing a search of the compound. Much has been made of the fact that Sarah has not been identified.
Some, including sect members and their attorneys, have said that the call was not placed by anyone in the compound; that it was placed by a disgruntled member or, worse, was a hoax.
I say it doesn't matter, and the Supreme Court agrees.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/sunny.child/index.html

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:05 PM
FOX: Introduced into court was lists of the men, in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Their wives were listed alongside them and some of them were 16 years old.

FLDS lawyers argued the names of the wives should be kept under seal because it's a religious matter.

Judge said it is not a religious matter but of underage children.

Residents have been opening homes for the lawyers for children a place to sleep at night because there are no hotel rooms in town or in surrounding area.

Lawyer for a 2 year old child explained that the child kept referring to the woman with her not as mommy, but as Jane. The woman would continually correct the child and say "Mother Jane" The 2 year old child had no idea who the father was.

Flora Jessop: They change the child's name and birthdate so the child remains confused as to parentage, because they are an extension or reflection of the prophet.

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 02:16 PM
Law enforcement officers obtained a warrant authorizing a search of the compound. Much has been made of the fact that Sarah has not been identified.
Some, including sect members and their attorneys, have said that the call was not placed by anyone in the compound; that it was placed by a disgruntled member or, worse, was a hoax.
I say it doesn't matter, and the Supreme Court agrees.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/sunny.child/index.html

From what I have been reading, the warrant should stand for removing the kids. The call was enough to prompt the investigation and if social workers saw signs of abuse they had to remove the kids in the home. The part that will be in question will be whether they define the individual houses as a home or the compound as a home. So the fact that they didn't find Sarah doesn't matter.

But the other issue is a criminal case. And from what I have read that is where the issue of not finding Sarah becomes important. I don't see how it should affect the criminal case, but the experts seem to be split on it.

I have seen other cases where CPS got anonymous calls that Susie is being abused. But when CPS investigated they didn't find abuse on Susie. But they found Johnny in the home and Johnny showed signs of abuse. Kids were removed and parents arrested. But for some reason they are saying that if Sarah is not found that authorities lose their probable cause for arrest. I am confused.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 02:20 PM
12:30 p.m. - Attorneys continue to make objections based on multiple issues. An attorney tells Judge Walther the identities of some of the children have been kept secret, and sometimes the names change. Another attorney said ranch leaders kept good records of heads of households and the number of wives and children of the men. It's still slow going in court as attorneys wrangle over legal issues.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

Leila
04-17-2008, 02:26 PM
One of the news channels had a brief update, and said men were identified by name, and their wives were listed by name and that medical records were introduced that showed sexual abuse of several children.

If they've got medical evidence of abuse, I would think that alone would prevent any of the children going back to the YFZ ranch pending further investigation.

Leila
04-17-2008, 02:32 PM
Ar update from the Salt Lake City Tribune:

Article Last Updated: 04/17/2008 12:17:17 PM MDT
if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').styl e.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').styl e.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } Updated: 11:54 AM- SAN ANGELO, Texas - A judge is now beginning to rule on the first volleys launched by attorneys in today's court battle over more than 400 FLDS children taken into state custody - everything from requests for genetic testing to the admission of medical records for the sect's teenage girls.
District Court Judge Barbara Walther has just approved a state request to admit medical evidence gathered from three teenage FLDS girls who were taken to a temporary shelter at Fort Concho.
The judge has also admitted records taken from a safe in the office of Richard Barlow at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints YFZ Ranch on April 5.

More at this link...............

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8957324

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:38 PM
"Meanwhile, authorities are identifying more teen girls as mothers or pregnant each day, attorneys say, as girls who have said they are 21 or 18 are being proved to be much younger."

"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

So the FLDS wants to know how well their pr efforts are coming across. Do they really think that what they say on tv will make a difference in a court hearing?

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 02:39 PM
One of the news channels had a brief update, and said men were identified by name, and their wives were listed by name and that medical records were introduced that showed sexual abuse of several children.

If they've got medical evidence of abuse, I would think that alone would prevent any of the children going back to the YFZ ranch pending further investigation.

It is standard for CPS to remove all children in a home if they find evidence of one child being abused. But if the home is a part of an apartment building, they aren't going to move every kid in the apartment building. So from what I have read, home is the key. Did they find signs of abuse in every home? Or are they defining the compound as a home? I believe that since the church's principles order abuse, the compound should be defined as a home. But the court is the one who will decide if there were grounds to remove every kid.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Dallas attorney Susan Hays: her challenge is to decide if her 2-year-old client is better off with her mother at the ranch, or with relatives, or with the state. She hasn't been able to speak with the father – "I don't know his name," she said – or interview the child, and she has no access to birth certificates or other documentation. The information she's been able to glean from the child's mother is spotty."

"Largely missing from the spotlight has been the fathers – both in media interviews and in discussions from attorneys about their representation. Several lawyers, including Ms. Hays, have said the mothers won't divulge who the men are or where they are – although several were walking into the courthouse to watch the proceedings on Thursday morning. It was unclear if they planned to testify. "

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

Floh
04-17-2008, 02:44 PM
While I understand you cannot put a price on child abuse, this case is going to cost millions. Already the cult is lawyered up to the gills.

Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.

Floh
04-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Hi gitana,

Several people here have expressed the same sentiment.




On the matter of those who don't agree being so silent....

Silence doesn't always mean there is nothing valid to say. Sometimes it indicates awareness that there is no hearer to speak to.


Glow, i sincerely appreciate calls regarding civil liberties and normally i'm in uproar of protection myself. i really am listening if you have anything to say. i don't want anyone to feel railroaded, honestly. :blowkiss:

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:47 PM
FROM THE COURTHOUSE: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/


"Several attorneys representing women and children begin making objections based on various laws, and one says negative media could skew the results. Judge Walther replies that this is not a jury trial, and that she won't be swayed by media attention."

"CPS asks to obtain DNA samples from adults to match with children.
The first witness is called. (**Other news reports say a woman jumped up shouting when this request was presented) Judge Walther tells a woman to take a seat, saying she will not have people jumping up and down and shouting at the court."

"Women and men from the YFZ Ranch lean over talking to one another, or sit and watch the scene around them. One man from the ranch sticks his finger to his mouth in a universal sign of "shh" to a group of ranch members across the aisle."

"A woman drives by in a white SUV screaming at bystanders to "leave the children alone."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.

State emergency has been done Already. I believe Federal emergency will be coming soon too!

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/county-continues-disaster-declaration-related-to/

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:49 PM
Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.
Perhaps the govt. can pay for it out of the FLDS funds or from the monies awarded as part of the contracts they have with flds businesses, or out of th welfare money these FLDS members are expecting to keep collecting.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:51 PM
"Hays said attorneys "have been amazed" by how "beautiful and healthy" the children they represent are. "The parents care a lot about their children. It's not neglect," she said. "This is a sexual abuse case. It may be a physical abuse case."

Leila
04-17-2008, 02:54 PM
"Meanwhile, authorities are identifying more teen girls as mothers or pregnant each day, attorneys say, as girls who have said they are 21 or 18 are being proved to be much younger."

"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

So the FLDS wants to know how well their pr efforts are coming across. Do they really think that what they say on tv will make a difference in a court hearing?

Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 02:54 PM
FROM THE COURTHOUSE: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/


"Several attorneys representing women and children begin making objections based on various laws, and one says negative media could skew the results. Judge Walther replies that this is not a jury trial, and that she won't be swayed by media attention."

"CPS asks to obtain DNA samples from adults to match with children.
The first witness is called. (**Other news reports say a woman jumped up shouting when this request was presented) Judge Walther tells a woman to take a seat, saying she will not have people jumping up and down and shouting at the court."

"Women and men from the YFZ Ranch lean over talking to one another, or sit and watch the scene around them. One man from the ranch sticks his finger to his mouth in a universal sign of "shh" to a group of ranch members across the aisle."

"A woman drives by in a white SUV screaming at bystanders to "leave the children alone."

No longer sweet tempered and ladylike are they?

From the way we are told they live, unable to voice their preferences or grievences, they probably have a lot of issues bottled up. Now they are being given permission to air grievences. All of their angers will be coming out, this could get ugly.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 02:55 PM
Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.But!! The article also states that this has NOT been broached publicly. I seriously doubt the Judge will go for it anyway, because some or most of the women were participants in the abuse or were aware of it and did not stop it. Also, if they can be charged with bigamy or other fraud crimes, what good does it do to put the children back with the very same persons who are committing other crimes?

barb0301
04-17-2008, 02:58 PM
From what I have been reading, the warrant should stand for removing the kids. The call was enough to prompt the investigation and if social workers saw signs of abuse they had to remove the kids in the home. The part that will be in question will be whether they define the individual houses as a home or the compound as a home. So the fact that they didn't find Sarah doesn't matter.

But the other issue is a criminal case. And from what I have read that is where the issue of not finding Sarah becomes important. I don't see how it should affect the criminal case, but the experts seem to be split on it.

I have seen other cases where CPS got anonymous calls that Susie is being abused. But when CPS investigated they didn't find abuse on Susie. But they found Johnny in the home and Johnny showed signs of abuse. Kids were removed and parents arrested. But for some reason they are saying that if Sarah is not found that authorities lose their probable cause for arrest. I am confused.

I don't see how the search warrant and any evidence gathered could be thrown out. On 4/3, the original warrant was granted for CPS and DPS to go in and search for Sarah, and any documents pertaining to her, the "purported" husband, and any children from the "purported" marriage between the 2.

While conducting that search and interviews, CPS noticed other girls of teenage years that were pregnant and obtained information leading them to believe there were other cases of abuse going on. Based on that information, they briefed DPS, and DPS went back to the judge, who granted ANOTHER, BROADER search warrant for the entire compound and all documents, on 4/6. Based on the fact that CPS workers saw with their own eyes, and heard from other children that abuse was taking place, the judge granted the 2nd warrant. That is when the large-scale warrant was executed and the temple was entered.

I think TX authorities did this in a way that ensured nothing would be thrown out.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 02:59 PM
Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.


It would never fly. First off how can they keep the men from showing up? How can they keep the men from controlling?! The FBI is involved now, so I highly doubt that a settlement could be arrived.

mysteriew
04-17-2008, 02:59 PM
Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.


They have to make the effort. In a lot of child sexual abuse cases, the child will be allowed back if the abuser is no longer allowed in the household. I don't think it will work, but they have to make the effort.

It is interesting though. Didn't the men say they offered to leave the compound and leave it to the mothers and kids? I don't think they will.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 03:02 PM
Guys is there anyway that we can keep court hearing stuff in this thread and anything NOT realting to court on the other thread??? Sorry, just rtying to figure out the less confusing thing

Glow
04-17-2008, 03:04 PM
Glow, i sincerely appreciate calls regarding civil liberties and normally i'm in uproar of protection myself. i really am listening if you have anything to say. i don't want anyone to feel railroaded, honestly. :blowkiss:

Thank you Floh. I appreciate and applaud your fair mindedness. :blowkiss:

Glow
04-17-2008, 03:07 PM
Guys is there anyway that we can keep court hearing stuff in this thread and anything NOT realting to court on the other thread??? Sorry, just rtying to figure out the less confusing thing

I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if you changed the title of this thread so it stood out as different from the former one? Maybe that would help to differentiate the threads.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 03:07 PM
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/ranch-residents-prepare-to-come-to-hearings/

The allegations "are so opposite of everything we are trying to do out here," said Madeline, 54. "We brought the girls here to be safe. We are law-abiding citizens."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 03:10 PM
I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if you changed the title of this thread so it stood out as different from the former one? Maybe that would help to differentiate the threads.


How can I do this?? Never Mind I got it! Ty

Glow
04-17-2008, 03:14 PM
I am a bad person to ask for help as I rarely start threads!

Can you go to where you started the thread and see if there is still an edit option? If not I bet a mod would be able to change it for you.

ED to add- OK!

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 03:16 PM
Edson Jessop was among a group of nine FLDS men who filed into court early. "We're here with one purpose and that's to get our children," he said.

Are these the ones with the least taint or less likely to be arrested for serious charges? Or did those most in charge attend? I bet Merrill Jessop isn't there!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 03:17 PM
*****BREAKING NEWS*****


State said that while raid was going on they came across a safe, that belonged to a Richard Barlow. Those records show 10 or 11 woman married as minors, or pregnant as minors! This could be very positive for the state. Court is now in recess.

As per CNN

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 03:18 PM
breaking news


State said that while raid was going on they came across a safe, that belonged to richard barlow. Those records show 10 or 11 woman married as minors, or pregnant as minors!I'm glad they found some concrete evidence. Let's see those women refute that!

Edited to add: Fox is calling it "coverage of the cult" now. regarding the documents found, the FLDS argued unsucessfully that it's a religious document. Lists ages of men and their spiritual wives.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 03:21 PM
Instead of having each case go through the courts, they have broken them down into blocks for example Boys under age 5 is "Block Blue" they represent all the boys under 5. And girls under 5 are "block _____" ect ect

Fox seems to be doing the most reporting on the case. So switched there.

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:23 PM
State emergency has been done Already. I believe Federal emergency will be coming soon too!

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/county-continues-disaster-declaration-related-to/

:woohoo:

Leila
04-17-2008, 03:29 PM
But!! The article also states that this has NOT been broached publicly. I seriously doubt the Judge will go for it anyway, because some or most of the women were participants in the abuse or were aware of it and did not stop it. Also, if they can be charged with bigamy or other fraud crimes, what good does it do to put the children back with the very same persons who are committing other crimes?


That's a relief...........that paragraph jumped out at me and had me concerned.

Shepard Smith - Fox News giving an update. Fox News showed the front of the courthouse, with police tape keeping the media behind a certain line...........there's a huge media presence. The reporter said that before the break for lunch, the hearing started moving forward again after being interrupted earlier.

Shepard now interviewing Kathy Nicholson, former FLDS member. He asked her about "keep sweet" and asked "does that mean shut up and take it?" and she said "you hit it on the head." She said she was sewing her own wedding dress at age 14 as preparation for her wedding. She says the boys in the family are considered a burden. They're going to do more coverage after the commercial................

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:30 PM
I don't see how the search warrant and any evidence gathered could be thrown out. On 4/3, the original warrant was granted for CPS and DPS to go in and search for Sarah, and any documents pertaining to her, the "purported" husband, and any children from the "purported" marriage between the 2.

While conducting that search and interviews, CPS noticed other girls of teenage years that were pregnant and obtained information leading them to believe there were other cases of abuse going on. Based on that information, they briefed DPS, and DPS went back to the judge, who granted ANOTHER, BROADER search warrant for the entire compound and all documents, on 4/6. Based on the fact that CPS workers saw with their own eyes, and heard from other children that abuse was taking place, the judge granted the 2nd warrant. That is when the large-scale warrant was executed and the temple was entered.

I think TX authorities did this in a way that ensured nothing would be thrown out.

I think Texas authorities have been watching nd waiting to make their move at what they considered to be the right time ever since the FLDS set up home in the state.

they have been prepared for the race of measure and all which could be thrown at them, IMO.

GO TEXAS! :woohoo:

adnoid
04-17-2008, 03:32 PM
Why couldn't they conduct it like a class-action lawsuit?:confused:

Class actions are only for civil, not criminal, actions.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 03:35 PM
The state had every right to come in and investigate this lawyers from the attorny saying!

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:37 PM
Thank you Floh. I appreciate and applaud your fair mindedness. :blowkiss:


Glow, when we have a forum for this case we can set up a thread or two discussing the attack upon civil liberties. if you have read me much on this thread you will know i'm 100% behind rescuing the children (from every FLDS compound/town/home if warranted), but i really DO hear you and, if you knew me personally, you'd understand me to be just about the most paranoid person alive regarding freedom of/FROM government in our lives.

we can and will examine civil liberties and what all this could crushingly mean to every day people when we get the forum. :blowkiss:

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:39 PM
I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if you changed the title of this thread so it stood out as different from the former one? Maybe that would help to differentiate the threads.

Us mere posters are unable to change thread titles, unfortunately. :(

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:40 PM
How can I do this?? Never Mind I got it! Ty

I was wrong! yay Ladybass. thanks! :blowkiss:

adnoid
04-17-2008, 03:41 PM
Us mere posters are unable to change thread titles, unfortunately. :(

The poster that starts a thread can edit the title for 24 hours after it was started.

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:42 PM
*****BREAKING NEWS*****


State said that while raid was going on they came across a safe, that belonged to a Richard Barlow. Those records show 10 or 11 woman married as minors, or pregnant as minors! This could be very positive for the state. Court is now in recess.

As per CNN

The court has it's case! i hate it's true. i hate the children have been abused. they have to make it stop now! :furious:

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:45 PM
I'm glad they found some concrete evidence. Let's see those women refute that!

Edited to add: Fox is calling it "coverage of the cult" now. regarding the documents found, the FLDS argued unsucessfully that it's a religious document. Lists ages of men and their spiritual wives.


Good!

barb0301
04-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Hi gitana,

Several people here have expressed the same sentiment.

On the matter of those who don't agree being so silent....

Silence doesn't always mean there is nothing valid to say. Sometimes it indicates awareness that there is no hearer to speak to.

Glow, Glow, Glow....I thought we were having a great discussion earlier on these threads, and then you abandoned me !!!! Where'd ya go? :waitasec:

Leila
04-17-2008, 03:48 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/mrspeavey/0417081303_M_041708_polygamy_court0.jpg

Above is a picture of the line waiting to get into the courthouse in Tom Green County, Texas.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 03:49 PM
"even if allegations of abuse can only be proven against a few kids, the entire group may face the same outcome. "The state is now in a situation where it knows of abuse," explained Princeton Law Professor, Marci Hamilton.
"If they were to send these children back, it will be liable for the abuse that occurs."

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:50 PM
The poster that starts a thread can edit the title for 24 hours after it was started.

Thanks adnoid.i never knew that. :)

Floh
04-17-2008, 03:51 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/mrspeavey/0417081303_M_041708_polygamy_court0.jpg

Above is a picture of the line waiting to get into the courthouse in Tom Green County, Texas.

OMG! :eek:

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 03:55 PM
RE:the FLDS complaints about children being ripped from them with no explanations etc.. the claims they are making even today.

"That is not how the chaplain who was with them in state custody remembers it. "It was not the process that has been presented in terms of children being ripped out of their mothers arms and hysteria," stated Gene Grounds, with Victim Relief Ministries. "None of that happened."

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/17852469.html

Floh
04-17-2008, 04:06 PM
RE:the FLDS complaints about children being ripped from them with no explanations etc.. the claims they are making even today.

"That is not how the chaplain who was with them in state custody remembers it. "It was not the process that has been presented in terms of children being ripped out of their mothers arms and hysteria," stated Gene Grounds, with Victim Relief Ministries. "None of that happened."

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/17852469.html

Of course it didn't. i'm convinced the authorities had their ducks in a row!

Leila
04-17-2008, 04:17 PM
RE:the FLDS complaints about children being ripped from them with no explanations etc.. the claims they are making even today.

"That is not how the chaplain who was with them in state custody remembers it. "It was not the process that has been presented in terms of children being ripped out of their mothers arms and hysteria," stated Gene Grounds, with Victim Relief Ministries. "None of that happened."

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/17852469.html

I'm sure the mothers that agreed to media interviews were coached and told to make it dramatic. But, they didn't know that the American public isn't that gullible.

Leila
04-17-2008, 04:20 PM
OMG! :eek:

That was just the line getting into the courthouse. I wonder what it was like inside - the line trying to get into the courtroom. And, what about the other cases being heard today in other courtrooms? I don't envy the citizen who had a small claims case before another judge in that courthouse today.

Hopeful One
04-17-2008, 04:24 PM
Of course it didn't. i'm convinced the authorities had their ducks in a row!

Me too. I can't see it happening the way the mothers describe it.

Glow
04-17-2008, 04:28 PM
Glow, when we have a forum for this case we can set up a thread or two discussing the attack upon civil liberties. if you have read me much on this thread you will know i'm 100% behind rescuing the children (from every FLDS compound/town/home if warranted), but i really DO hear you and, if you knew me personally, you'd understand me to be just about the most paranoid person alive regarding freedom of/FROM government in our lives.
we can and will examine civil liberties and what all this could crushingly mean to every day people when we get the forum. :blowkiss:

I would definitely be interested in that Floh, thanks! Do you think that starting a thread would be better than talking here? Or maybe using the old thread #3?


Glow, Glow, Glow....I thought we were having a great discussion earlier on these threads, and then you abandoned me !!!! Where'd ya go? :waitasec:

I guees it did appear that way...nothing personal though barb! You have always been kind and reasonable and a joy to talk to, even when we dont agree. :blowkiss: I keep waiting for a calm moment to post. A moment when the fervor of "GD Those Bad FLDS people" has run its course, and maybe some posters would want to discuss what this all really means. I dont think today with the court proceedings going on OR on this thread is probably the best place ot time to do that. Maybe on the other thread would be better. What do you think? :waitasec:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 04:41 PM
I would definitely be interested in that Floh, thanks! Do you think that starting a thread would be better than talking here? Or maybe using the old thread #3?



I guees it did appear that way...nothing personal though barb! You have always been kind and reasonable and a joy to talk to, even when we dont agree. :blowkiss: I keep waiting for a calm moment to post. A moment when the fervor of "GD Those Bad FLDS people" has run its course, and maybe some posters would want to discuss what this all really means. I dont think today with the court proceedings going on OR on this thread is probably the best place ot time to do that. Maybe on the other thread would be better. What do you think? :waitasec:

Can we do it in # 3 thread please?? Trying to keep this for court proceedings only!

barb0301
04-17-2008, 04:55 PM
I would definitely be interested in that Floh, thanks! Do you think that starting a thread would be better than talking here? Or maybe using the old thread #3?



I guees it did appear that way...nothing personal though barb! You have always been kind and reasonable and a joy to talk to, even when we dont agree. :blowkiss: I keep waiting for a calm moment to post. A moment when the fervor of "GD Those Bad FLDS people" has run its course, and maybe some posters would want to discuss what this all really means. I dont think today with the court proceedings going on OR on this thread is probably the best place ot time to do that. Maybe on the other thread would be better. What do you think? :waitasec:

I think they are going to open a whole forum for this topic. Maybe then, an entire thread on "Civil Liberties" would be a good idea?

:blowkiss: back at 'cha

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 04:55 PM
3:09 p.m. - A Child Protective Services supervisor takes the stand. She was one of the primary supervisors assigned to work on the YFZ Ranch case.
About 11:32 p.m. March 29, officials received a report, the supervisor says before an objection cuts her off.
An attorney objects to the CPS supervisor reading from documents if they're not submitted into evidence.
Walther overrules him.
The supervisor continues, saying a 16-year-old at YFZ Ranch reported abuse.
When the department receives a report, it is routed to the appropriate investigator, the supervisor says under questioning from the state.
Concerns came up that this case would be more than one investigator could handle, the supervisor says. A great number of children could be involved.
The normal procedure is to interview every member of a household, the supervisor said.
At first, 12 caseworkers were assigned to go to the YFZ Ranch.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 04:56 PM
3:20 p.m. - The CPS supervisor continues testimony: She went to the YFZ Ranch about 9 p.m. April 3. The team included herself and at least six investigators or special investigators, as well as two other CPS staff members.
Also along were law enforcement officers, including some from the Schleicher County Sheriff's Office and the Texas Rangers.
The supervisor asked to come into the compound and discuss reports of abuse.
Law-enforcement officers told ranch residents they were there to see a child named Sarah.
"The men shook their heads and said there were no Sarahs living at the ranch," the supervisor tells the court.
So the investigators asked to come in and talk to the other children. They noticed a guard tower as tall as the courtroom, the supervisor said.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 05:14 PM
At that same link!

Outside the courthouse, a television reporter asks William Jessop, who says he is an FLDS member, what he would say to his children. He replies, "Keep sweet and come home."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 05:20 PM
3:45 p.m., SCHLEICHER COUNTY - Two Houston attorneys - Jason Castaneda and Damiane Curbey Danieh - are leaving the YFZ Ranch after meeting the mothers of their new ad litem clients being held in San Angelo.
Castaneda says, speaking of the court proceedings: "We expected it to be quicker."
Danieh says, "They we unable to get to the real issue of probable cause."
Danieh also notes: "Parents did not receive a copy of petition for removal, which is a big issue."
The two say they went to the ranch in part to see for themselves whether allegations that the children had been living in unhealthy conditions were true.
They were not, both say.
Another shortcoming in the state's case, Danieh says, is the lack of the 16-year-old whose complaint launched the entire case. Without the girl or further proof of allegations, she says, CPS doesn't have much of a case. The two say they are flying back to Houston tonight. They'll be back when their young clients have a court date, they say.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 05:21 PM
3:50 p.m., TOM GREEN COUNTY COURTHOUSE - The CPS supervisor continues to testify about the raid April 3 on the YFZ Ranch:
The FLDS men bring 15 girls to be interviewed, five at a time by the five investigators. The other girls stay in the waiting room where FLDS men are.
The supervisor begins to hear about various Sarahs.
The supervisor came to the ranch looking for a girl named Sarah who is about 5 feet, 4 inches tall, 16 years old and mother of a baby.
During the interviews, CPS investigators hear about five Sarahs, although two or three could have been the same person, the supervisor said.
It begins to come out that the households generally consist of one man, "the father," who is a "husband" with several "wives" and father of all the children in the home.
The investigators learn that one Sarah who has been at the ranch is 16 and has a baby, the supervisor said. The girls being interviewed have seen her the past week at the ranch but don't know where she is.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 05:23 PM
3:45 p.m., SCHLEICHER COUNTY - Two Houston attorneys - Jason Castaneda and Damiane Curbey Danieh - are leaving the YFZ Ranch after meeting the mothers of their new ad litem clients...SNIP The two say they are flying back to Houston tonight. They'll be back when their young clients have a court date, they say.They can't make it through the hearing, since it's going to be going into tomorrow or however long? The state didn't say the children were living in unhealthy conditions, they said they were at risk. Is the hearing over for today?

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 05:27 PM
3:50 p.m., TOM GREEN COUNTY COURTHOUSE - The investigators learn that one Sarah who has been at the ranch is 16 and has a baby, the supervisor said. The girls being interviewed have seen her the past week at the ranch but don't know where she is.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/They were probably told to say that and she could have been there, only hidden.
Edited to add: If they say she's not there, and hasn't been there, they hope that CPS will beleive it and leave.

Linda7NJ
04-17-2008, 05:30 PM
They were probably told to say that and she could have been there, only hidden.
Edited to add: If they say she's not there, and hasn't been there, they hope that CPS will believe it and leave.


I think one of the "sister wives" caught her and tipped off ol hubbyophile and she was shipped off somewhere..."reassigned"

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 05:33 PM
They can't make it through the hearing, since it's going to be going into tomorrow or however long? The state didn't say the children were living in unhealthy conditions, they said they were at risk. Is the hearing over for today?

No the hearing is still going on. I doubt they will get through everything today. It is taking ALOT longer then expected. I beleive though that this will be going on after hours aswell. Instead of court stopping at 5pm, it may continue on until 7-8 or later. Just my opinion though.

2XL
04-17-2008, 05:45 PM
Perhaps the govt. can pay for it out of the FLDS funds or from the monies awarded as part of the contracts they have with flds businesses, or out of th welfare money these FLDS members are expecting to keep collecting.

Amen sista!! When there is a natural disaster that is acts of God, that is one thing. These people have created their on crisis, let them pay for it. From what is being said, they have already collected enough government money for spitting out babies and lying about not knowing who the father is, but hey, they may not actually know who the baby daddy is, hell they might be jumping from perv to perv. God, this makes me sick.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 06:13 PM
Summary of court proceedings today

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271299,00.html

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 06:14 PM
4:22 p.m. - Back in session. Opens with objection that the CPS supervisor testimony shouldn't be admitted as evidence.
According to testimony, the CPS investigator began to find 16-year-old mothers with small children and began looking for pregnant teenagers. She found many. Saw a pattern that girls would switch names under testimony and wouldn't provide full names. They did not, they told her, know their own dates of birth.
Talk goes to girls' classroom on the ranch. Several girls indicated there were some Sarahs on the ranch, and they went to school with Sarahs. There were no attendance logs in the classrooms. Journals were found in the classrooms.
During questioning at the ranch, some girls said they couldn't talk about certain things.
"The demeanor I observed from the girls was very closed off. They would say they didn't want to answer that question," the witness said.
Some girls would say who the father of the house is. Difficult to tell who is the biological father or father of the household.
Girls talked freely about chores on the ranch and how they pray and what they believe. But as to identifying persons in the home, they couldn't give specific information or refused to answer

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 06:15 PM
4:39 p.m. - The CPS worker testifies she asked to see some girls from the ranch, and Merrill Jessop brought a group of girls, but only one was among those requested.
An objection is called out from the City Auditorium, taking a few tries before Judge Walther hears it in the county courthouse.
The CPS worker is asked about the decision to remove the girls and replies that her concern is a global pattern that underage marriage and children having children is permitted.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

Leila
04-17-2008, 06:34 PM
3:20 p.m. - The CPS supervisor continues testimony: She went to the YFZ Ranch about 9 p.m. April 3. The team included herself and at least six investigators or special investigators, as well as two other CPS staff members.
Also along were law enforcement officers, including some from the Schleicher County Sheriff's Office and the Texas Rangers.
The supervisor asked to come into the compound and discuss reports of abuse.
Law-enforcement officers told ranch residents they were there to see a child named Sarah.
"The men shook their heads and said there were no Sarahs living at the ranch," the supervisor tells the court.
So the investigators asked to come in and talk to the other children. They noticed a guard tower as tall as the courtroom, the supervisor said.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

The FLDS men at the gate evidently lied when they said there was no one by the name of Sarah there, because the children that were interviewed identified 5 girls by the name Sarah, and one indicated a Sarah that matched the description of the Sarah who called the help line.

I hope they let the CPS worker continue to testify.

adnoid
04-17-2008, 06:41 PM
The FLDS men at the gate evidently lied when they said there was no one by the name of Sarah there, because the children that were interviewed identified 5 girls by the name Sarah, and one indicated a Sarah that matched the description of the Sarah who called the help line...

The dadophiles lied? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Leila
04-17-2008, 07:05 PM
3:45 p.m., SCHLEICHER COUNTY - Two Houston attorneys - Jason Castaneda and Damiane Curbey Danieh - are leaving the YFZ Ranch after meeting the mothers of their new ad litem clients being held in San Angelo.
Castaneda says, speaking of the court proceedings: "We expected it to be quicker."
Danieh says, "They we unable to get to the real issue of probable cause."
Danieh also notes: "Parents did not receive a copy of petition for removal, which is a big issue."
The two say they went to the ranch in part to see for themselves whether allegations that the children had been living in unhealthy conditions were true.
They were not, both say.
Another shortcoming in the state's case, Danieh says, is the lack of the 16-year-old whose complaint launched the entire case. Without the girl or further proof of allegations, she says, CPS doesn't have much of a case. The two say they are flying back to Houston tonight. They'll be back when their young clients have a court date, they say.

It's frustrating to read of these two attorneys. They don't understand the issues. It's not about unhealthy or unsanitary living conditions. It's about physical and sexual abuse. The attorneys aren't going to see evidence of that abuse by inspecting the homes of the children. They also can't trust the word of any of the mothers, as they've been coached on what to say, and believe it's ok to lie to your enemy (any outsider).

Ca-Sun
04-17-2008, 07:08 PM
The dadophiles lied? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.No kidding! Utter disbelief.

They are such a bunch of cowards, hiding behind their "spiritual" wives and doing what they want under the pretense of religion. "Dadophiles" I like that name -- it is very fitting.

Trino
04-17-2008, 07:15 PM
It's frustrating to read of these two attorneys. They don't understand the issues. It's not about unhealthy or unsanitary living conditions. It's about physical and sexual abuse. The attorneys aren't going to see evidence of that abuse by inspecting the homes of the children. They also can't trust the word of any of the mothers, as they've been coached on what to say, and believe it's ok to lie to your enemy (any outsider).


Attorneys take cases. They don't interject their personal feelings; remember all the lawyer jokes?

Leila
04-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Fox News - Shepard Smith reporting that the hearing will go on until 9:00pm tonight, central time.

Also, the Fox reporter on scene talked about the bishop's document that listed men and their wives by name. He said that one man at the YFZ ranch has 22 wives, the youngest is 16 years old.

It would be interesting to know if that 16-year-old wife has any children.......if so, she would be one of the underage mothers.

thefragile7393
04-17-2008, 07:31 PM
No the hearing is still going on. I doubt they will get through everything today. It is taking ALOT longer then expected. I beleive though that this will be going on after hours aswell. Instead of court stopping at 5pm, it may continue on until 7-8 or later. Just my opinion though.
Well with all these interruptions and interjections and tons of lawyers, social workers, and who knows who else it's going to take a GOOD while methinks....and this easily can turn into a huge circus if they aren't careful. It sounds like the judge is a no-nonsense kind of person, so I'm hoping it's all under control...but I still wish Judge Judy would get in there.

And I hope that the workers involved, judges, prosecuting lawyers, are all careful. I can easily see the men gunning down people who cross them...it's happened before. "Under the Banner of Heaven" and reading up on Jeffs is my source for that.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 07:36 PM
ACK the hearing log disappeared ... I hit reload and it was gone!

ETA: Is there a live feed?

Linda7NJ
04-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Hey! What happened to the LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE website?

I keep getting a page not found???

Ca-Sun
04-17-2008, 07:43 PM
Hey! What happened to the LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE website?

I keep getting a page not found???Try this: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/fldsday1/

golfmom
04-17-2008, 07:45 PM
Try this: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/fldsday1/

THANK YOU! :blowkiss:

golfmom
04-17-2008, 07:47 PM
I guess this is why:

As I am listening, a policeman comes over and asks me to follow him outside because he thinks the broadband device attached to my laptop computer is a camera. I miss some testimony.

SuziQ
04-17-2008, 07:54 PM
Been gone all day and just caught up. The guy who said "keep sweet and come home". Well that sounds like witness intimidation to me.

Is it out of the realm of possibility to have the cases assigned to more than one judge? maybe a legal eagle here can weigh in. I would hate to have this fall apart because of problems starting to surface.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:01 PM
Suzi, I just read this article which is an interesting highlight of today's activities:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271299,00.html

....
Walther, who described herself as a "simple country judge," tried to juggle objections from many of the more than 350 attorneys representing all areas of Texas who are present to handle the monumental case. Every mother has legal representation as do the children.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:03 PM
Oh my, this isn't sounding good . . .
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD903TU0G0


The hearing disintegrated quickly into a barrage of shouted objections and attempts to file motions, with lawyers for the children objecting to objections made by the parents' attorneys. When the judge sustained an objection to the prolonged questioning the state trooper, the lawyers cheered.

Upon another objection about the proper admission of medical records of the children, the judge threw up her hands.

"I assume most of you want to make the same objection. Can I have a universal, `Yes, Judge'?" she said.

In both buildings, the hundreds of lawyers stood and responded in unison: "Yes, Judge."

LinasK
04-17-2008, 08:06 PM
Been gone all day and just caught up. The guy who said "keep sweet and come home". Well that sounds like witness intimidation to me.

Is it out of the realm of possibility to have the cases assigned to more than one judge? maybe a legal eagle here can weigh in. I would hate to have this fall apart because of problems starting to surface.

Darned right! Since "keep sweet" is a code for shut up and take it! Since there is evidence of a 16-year-old Sarah, perhaps the FBI will keep investigating and find her or her body. The FLDS has hidden her away somewhere or killed her to silence her, IMO.

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:18 PM
6:24 p.m. - Judge Walther says she will hear the best objection from each side to corrections made on a document. An attorney says "No objections," to the applause of the city auditorium. Discussion centers around children who are currently pregnant or who gave birth while under the age of 17. At least one girl was as young as 13 when she concevied a child, according to testimony. Some girls who are reporting they are adults are likely not adults, according to testimony, and maybe as many as 50 pecent of the women who say they are adults are not, according to testimony.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:19 PM
Nancy grace is covering this, Can I have someone help me do facts?!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:20 PM
Damning evidence was present against the sect today

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:23 PM
6:35 p.m. - The CPS witness, asked why its not safe to return the children to their mothers, replies that adults who live on ranch beleive they arent doing anything wrong to their children, that the practice of children having children is part of their culture and belief system.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:26 PM
Court will be going on until 10:00 EST time

Linda7NJ
04-17-2008, 08:31 PM
Try this: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/fldsday1/

It's still not working for me:(

SuziQ
04-17-2008, 08:32 PM
Nancy grace is covering this, Can I have someone help me do facts?!

I would if I had cable.

SuziQ
04-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Suzi, I just read this article which is an interesting highlight of today's activities:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271299,00.html

....


Thank you! The description of entering the compound and the following days is scary. I would have been shaking in my boots.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:34 PM
It's still not working for me:(

Try this one linda. Seems they had to change the link again

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Seems to me that they are being hit with high traffic, which is throwing the page down!

golfmom
04-17-2008, 08:43 PM
I've been noticing every time the page is updated that it goes down for a bit.

It's still down, but this is the main page ... keep trying through the front page link.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/

SuziQ
04-17-2008, 08:44 PM
Polygamist Compound Update: In the Court (http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/04/17/polygamist-compound-update-in-the-court/)

by Maggie Lineback

http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/author/maggielineback/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Some of the FLDS woman are actually sleeping in the court room.. As per Nancy Grace

barb0301
04-17-2008, 08:52 PM
state went in looking for 1 girl, instead found many, found 5 girls underage pregnant. Attorney for parents asked "why did you have to take all kids", CPS worker said because girls told them girls said girls said "highest blessing they could have was to marry and have children", "no age too young to be spiritually married", so all kids subject to being abused. Boys would be raised to be abusers

barb0301
04-17-2008, 08:53 PM
DNA swabs have been done on children

Ca-Sun
04-17-2008, 08:55 PM
It's still not working for me:(It's not working for me either, now. Sorry.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Andrea Yates' attorney on now - says this is mass confusion, has deep respect for judge. Believes state was unprepared for this endeavor, state did not realize what was going on at compound. Financially, this is a nightmare. Does not know where CPS will find foster care for these children. He believes state had obligation to pursue the case when it suspected abuse, but must sort out the victims that were abused.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:58 PM
Andrea Yates' attorney on now - says this is mass confusion, has deep respect for judge. Believes state was unprepared for this endeavor, state did not realize what was going on at compound. Financially, this is a nightmare. Does not know where CPS will find foster care for these children.

Barb what you watching? What channel?

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 08:59 PM
Larry king coming up. Will report details as they are pertinent between this thread and the thread #3

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:00 PM
Andrea Yates' attorney - bigamy is possible charge, either via common law or valid marriage (felony), agg sexual assault.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:01 PM
Barb what you watching? What channel?

Watching CNN

luvbeaches
04-17-2008, 09:01 PM
Every single child needs to be placed in foster care.

This whole thing disgusts me. I'm sure it's all these women know, and many of them have been abused, but the abuse needs to end. These children need to be protected and it's obvious that most of the mom's are not willing to do this, for whatever reason.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:03 PM
Amen sista!! When there is a natural disaster that is acts of God, that is one thing. These people have created their on crisis, let them pay for it. From what is being said, they have already collected enough government money for spitting out babies and lying about not knowing who the father is, but hey, they may not actually know who the baby daddy is, hell they might be jumping from perv to perv. God, this makes me sick.According to some of those who have left, their own fathers sexually abused them. I read where one man and his brother were afraid that the father of a young girl one of them wanted as a wife would "have her" first. I also read accounts where it was stated that their "fathers" or other family members "prepared" them for marriage. So that statement of yours is quite possible, even probable in some or many cases.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:03 PM
CNN corraspondent:

very slow going in the begining, judge seems to ahve control of this unctrollable situation. Judge is keeping things moving, we ahve heard some compelling story.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:06 PM
Man told reporter - "I'm just a potato grower, tell me what the law is, we'll follow it"

URP !!!! yeah, right !!!!!!!!!!!!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:06 PM
THE WOMAN SEEMED TO BE WILLING TO CONCEDE TO THINGS.. IN ORDER TO GET THERE CHILDREN BACK

Judge is making the rules as she goes along. She has never had a case liek this before!

Ca-Sun
04-17-2008, 09:06 PM
416 children are represented by 350 attorneys. NO age is too young for a child to be married. Whatever the "prophetphile" says, goes. What sick SOB's.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Reporter says judge is very inspiring, sorry they could not have cameras in courtroom

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:07 PM
CNN is saying the state has had the tesitimony all day. Crpss examination has just started. STate is sticking to its guns.

National press is all over the place.
This is not the same situation as Waco!

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:09 PM
6:55 p.m. - The CPS supervisor is under fire during cross examination. A defense attorney representing a father asks the CPS supervisor if anyone has talked to the father.
No, the CPS supervisor says.
The defense attorney continues to attack, asking whether families who've come forward to say they didn't live at the ranch can go home.
The CPS supervisor said she doesn't know of any, and a home would have to be checked out before a child could go to it.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:09 PM
THE WOMAN SEEMED TO BE WILLING TO CONCEDE TO THINGS.. IN ORDER TO GET THERE CHILDREN BACK

Judge is making the rules as she goes along. She has never had a case liek this before!" The women tell me they'll concede to what the state wants them to do if it's rational."

Yeah, until the prophet sends word from prison or M.Jeffs says you don't do it.

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:09 PM
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

"
6:24 p.m. - Judge Walther says she will hear the best objection from each side to corrections made on a document. An attorney says "No objections," to the applause of the city auditorium. Discussion centers around children who are currently pregnant or who gave birth while under the age of 17. At least one girl was as young as 13 when she concevied a child, according to testimony. Some girls who are reporting they are adults are likely not adults, according to testimony, and maybe as many as 50 pecent of the women who say they are adults are not, according to testimony."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:10 PM
7:05 - "There are young girls that feel the pinnacle of their existence is to become married at whatever age they're told and have as many children as they're told to have," the CPS supervisor says during questioning from a defense attorney.
But the danger of being sexually abused for those kids who are 4 and younger is 10 or 12 years down the road, the defense attorney says.
"What is the danger today for those children?" she said.
The CPS supervisor said the danger is that they'll grow up in an atmosphere in which sexual abuse of children is accepted.
The judge said she'll hear from one child's attorney.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Leila
04-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Larry King - interviewing Jenny Hoff, a reporter from Austin Kxan - TV. She was asked her opinion of Judge Walther, and her response was "Oh, she's fiery - all the time I was watching her, I wished we had been allowed cameras in the courtroom!"

It sound like we've got our "Judge Judy" in the courtroom! :clap:

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:10 PM
" The women tell me they'll concede to what the state wants them to do if it's rational."

Yeah, until the prophet sends word from prison or M.Jeffs says you don't do it.

Rational in who's opinion?

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Reporter says judge is very inspiring, sorry they could not have cameras in courtroomShe also said "she's very fiery". :clap:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:11 PM
7:15 p.m. - The CPS supervisor says, under cross examination, that she can't recommend any safety situation that would allow any of the children to go back to the ranch.
Another attorney representing parents steps forward to question the CPS supervisor, asking: Don't these people as a whole look younger than they may actually be?
"I can't speak to that," the supervisor says.
Everything grinds to a halt as the question arises as to exactly who the attorney represents. One of his clients was put on "the disputed list" who was supposed to be 20, he says. "And I wasn't allowed to see her," he adds.
He wants to know how many adults the supervisor testifying has spoken with.
She's talked to 15 or 20, she responds.
"What they express is they've done nothing wrong," the CPS supervisor says.
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Rational in who's opinion?Probably in the prophet or bishops opinion. Certainly not in the women's.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:15 PM
The judge is the star of the show... All the lawyers sometimes want to make riduclous objections and she is doing a wonderful job.

Leila
04-17-2008, 09:17 PM
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

"
6:24 p.m. - Judge Walther says she will hear the best objection from each side to corrections made on a document. An attorney says "No objections," to the applause of the city auditorium. Discussion centers around children who are currently pregnant or who gave birth while under the age of 17. At least one girl was as young as 13 when she concevied a child, according to testimony. Some girls who are reporting they are adults are likely not adults, according to testimony, and maybe as many as 50 pecent of the women who say they are adults are not, according to testimony."

I wonder if those 50% of the women who say they are adults are not - are among the 82 mothers that were allowed to remain with the children 5 and under?

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Attorney Hays: "The Texas law is well laid out in the code how you remove the child. If there is abuse in the household by one parent and the other parent doesn't do anything about it, the child can be removed permanently or temporarily."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:19 PM
You don't have to proof that an individual child is abused, but you have to proof that there is abuse going on in the household!


They think it will go till 9 tonite 9 tomorow and 9 saturday

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:20 PM
Andrea Yates' attorney - bigamy is possible charge, either via common law or valid marriage (felony), agg sexual assault.There could also be charges of incest and I'm betting that in future we'll see some charges for fraud.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:20 PM
7:25 p.m. - A child's attorney asks the testifying CPS supervisor whether any of the children had broken bones, injuries or malnutrition that showed up in medical examinations.
"There were some suspected broken bones," the CPS supervisor said.
The judge asks whether there are any other questions.
Another child's attorney asks whether the supervisor has identified any male who was 17 or younger and who had sex with a girl 17 or younger.
"I don't know," the supervisor replies.
Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:21 PM
7:46 - "You know, just because you stand up doesn't mean you have a right to talk," the judge tells someone at the courthouse. "I will recognize you."
An attorney comes forward to speak for all of the girls who are minors with children, asking for the CPS position on them. The department wants to find places together for the mothers and children if possible, the CPS supervisor says.
The attorney wants to know whether the mothers are seen as victims or perpetrators.
"In my investigation at this point, I see them as both," the CPS supervisor says. "They have been raised - and they are raising their children - in the belief that it will be OK for their children to have babies when they are just adolescents."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:23 PM
Seems the judge is getting frustrated with all the questions/objections.

Leila
04-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Carolyn Jessop says that some of the women who were interviewed on Larry King's program last night are women who's husbands were banished from the FLDS and the women and their children were sent to Texas. Larry King asked if that's why some of the women wouldn't respond to questions about where their husbands are.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:28 PM
Carolyn also stated that these woman are under alot of pressure on what to say, and if they say the wrong thing they could be in ALOT of trouble.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:28 PM
Kathy Jo Nicholson & Carolyn Jessop on LKL

MIKE: "I would say it's rather naive to assume that underage marriages are not going on in that compound. The reason they brought them here is because Jeff's knew that if they could put one of his cops in jail they could put him in too. I"m sure there's some great moms there, and deserve to get their children back, but they're in a culture. What were Texas officials supposed to do?

Carolyn: I know most of them that I've seen. They've had terrible things happen to them. Most of them last night have had their husbands taken away from them to repent from afar.
LARRY: That's why they won't talk about their hsubands?"
CAROLYN: Yes. 'Where's Merrill? Why isn't he there asking about his children. Why is he hiding behind the women?

Kathy: The men are, there's so much abuse that I know first hand, my brother in Colorado City was held out for blood atonement, he's dead and no one can explain it. My firends were married at 15 and 16, she complained about being raped over and over on her wedding night. We thought it was okay because she was married. That's what we were taught.

3 FLDS mothers: Esther, Marilyn and Sally CLIP

Carolyn: I know them, they are absolute sweethearts, but they are under tremendous pressure and they'll get in trouble if they don't watch what they say.

MIKE: I'm glad they're having their say in this discussion, I"m done if it's consenting adults, but it's not, there's sex with little girls. Jeffs social architecture, to abuse and throw away the boys..

golfmom
04-17-2008, 09:29 PM
"It's just like any other investigation," she says. "When you find one child that's a victim in a home, you have concerns for all of them, and the ranch is considered one large home."

Oh, that was a point I made a few days ago.

patting myself on the back!

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:30 PM
7:25 p.m. -
Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says.
Uh oh. They must have much more that they can present.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:37 PM
The activists think that warren is the best thing that could have happend to these communities, as he took a bad situation and made it so bad that now the states are actually starting to pay attention!

barb0301
04-17-2008, 09:39 PM
7:25 p.m. - A child's attorney asks the testifying CPS supervisor whether any of the children had broken bones, injuries or malnutrition that showed up in medical examinations.
"There were some suspected broken bones," the CPS supervisor said.

Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death? the attorney says.
Yes, the CPS supervisor says.


UH OH !!!! Very, very scary indeed !!!

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Does this story shock you?

Steven: No. When you drive around Colorado city, there are no American flags, they go out of thei rway to shun the American legal system. That legal system has stepped up to give them lawyers. The lawyers and judge have done great job and the defense has provided them with great counsel.

"These kids need permanency and safety."

Mike: we care for them, they are Texas's children. Some probably should be returned to their mothers, but the welfare of the children is paramount.

CLIP of the women

The mother talking about her handicapped child and CPS

Kathy: My heart breaks for Sally, in the beginning, I thought the best was to keep the mothers with the children, but now I see the state has to do what they have to do, just like in any other case. The state is well equipped. It's been going on for so long. I'm not talking about polygamy. The moms need to seek some counseling.

Carolyn: America has to stay focused, it's about the children. I'm a mother of a severely handicapped son too, it would create anxiety, but he goes off to school and I'm separated from him and he has carers who haven't been his mother for 8 years.

Dr. Charles : Safety is of utmost importance. That is our mandate.

Jeffs had a habit of breaking up families, reassigning them. He funneled a lot of those women to Texas. The primary interest is in the children but in having control over this population.

Larry: they talk about getting girls back, they didn't seem interested in the boys."

Mike: Because women are the currency with which Jeffs buys his power. This is the currency by which he buys loyalty with. He needs a herd of women he can parcel out to his favorite followers. A large no. of the young boys work until teenagers and then their father's drive them to the edge of town because Jeffs said so.

Leila
04-17-2008, 09:48 PM
Larry King is playing more of the video tour of Marilyn's home. Marilyn showed her mother's room and said her mother's little boy is handicapped - he's got Downs syndrome and the fumarase disease - the genetic disease that's showing up in FLDS communities.

Carolyn Jessop said that Marilyn's mother is Sally - one of the other three women who were interviewed last night.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 09:51 PM
There is a baby grave yard with no headstones, suicides are claimed that are not suicides, fathers are impregnanting there daughters.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 09:55 PM
Showing a clip of the Compound with Marilyn
"They (CPS) have her and her ten month old child and two other little girls that live here with her. We have a sweet, sweet grandmother that patches the socks when holes get in their socks. My mother has a child with Downs syndrome. They refused to let her take him with her. He takes minute by minute care. There were men all around with guns. I've never seen a firearm in my life. Those children need their mothers. (I didn't get all of what she said)

ANDERSON COOPER: Court will adjourn within the hour.

Carolyn: They've all taken on the demeanor and modeling their voices after Warren Jeffs. If she loves her child she will obey the prophet. That puts her in a vulnerable place regarding her child. There goes the mother bear.

Kathy: I think that he still has a grip on these people. He's built them up and torn them down, the process goes on for several years, it's prevalent. She talks about the baby graveyard in Colorado city, suicides that aren't suicides....

Journalist: I think the effect has trickled down from his jail cell to the ranch. His brothers are visiting and taking orders from Jeffs, so his grip is pervasive and strong. It shows how much power he has when he sends these boys out of town after using their cheap labor to get millions of dollar contracts. it's a criminal enterprise. When you have a man who's told to leave his family and go far away and repent, and he's a businessman and he does it, that's power.

Dr. Charles Sophy: It's difficult to see that and it makes you sad, but we have to make her kids safe. She might be able to keep them safe but her frame of reference isn't good. The way she's speaking, child like, she might be depressed, under connection with someone who won't allow her to think properly.

Typically any child welfare system will do is evaluate the parents. they should be able to evaluate the mothers as well. It is all pathology. They need to evaluate Warren. We have a protocol we have to go thru. We have to have safety, minimize risk, we look at parents, kids and relatives they could stay with while we do the evaluations.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Hearing is over for tonite Starts again tomorow 9 am Central

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:07 PM
Children being whipped, violence to children, babies being spanked till they screamed then held under water, etc etc ---- Carolyn Jessop

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:11 PM
woman and men are now admitting that 15 years old do get married etc, but say its not happening to all our children

mostlylurking
04-17-2008, 10:13 PM
Attorneys take cases. They don't interject their personal feelings; remember all the lawyer jokes?

How does a pregnant woman know that when her child grows up it will be an attorney?






She craves baloney.:crazy:

Trino
04-17-2008, 10:19 PM
How does a pregnant woman know that when her child grows up it will be an attorney?

She craves baloney.:crazy:

Cute.

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 10:20 PM
NANCY GRACE SHOW:
NANCY GRACE
Showing Clip of women at the ranch talking.
How old is the youngest girl married out here?
Probably 16. (replies an older woman)

Clip of Marilyn in the compound talking. Clip of a man walking to the court
More of the clip of the women.

NANCY: "That's all they want to talk about. They don't want to talk about girls as young as 13 forced to give birth. All the children they don't know how old they are, no birth certificates. It's the biggest mess in Texas child care history.

Sean: Right now something significant. The first time the defense attorney's have been interested in cross examining a CPS official. She presented damning evidence. What we hear is that there is a girl named Sarah and she does have a child. At one point the women stopped cooperating with the CPS and then Merrill Jessop said to start cooperating and all of them started cooperating. Talking about the safe opening and the documents found.
The reason this is important. This is a 14 day hearing, must be held after children are removed from a house. If she finds there is no evidence, she'll turn them back over to the families.

NANCY: If Judge Walters finds there is child abuse. That's clearly shown by these documents. If she believes those were found in a secret safe is that enough or does she have to do each case separately?

In normal child abuse or welfare cases, the child would be removed. Do you remove the kids from the house or the whole compound. interesting to see how Judge Walters rules on this.

The Clip of the women and Marilyn again...

Nancy: they're emotional but still managing to dodge questions about underage girls. The biggest child abuse bust in Texas history.

Caller from NM: Are those women getting to see their children?
Sean: No. If there are allegations of abuse, physical or otherwise, the first thing is to get the children out of that situation. Talks about witness tampering with the cell phones. etc..

Nancy: you said one word from Jessop and the women changed their tune.
He's the leader since Jeffs was sentenced. He is the acknowledged leader out here. One word was all it took for those women to step back and cooperate.

NANCY: "This is about the systematic child abuse of children. How can these women stand by and say its sacred when children of 13 are being abused.
These women were probably raped and abused themselves. Talks about one of the women on the clip - she's in a disassocative state.

Carolyn Jessop: I"m glad these children's rights are being protected. The American public needs to realize this is about child abuse, not about religion or polygamy. Merrill Jessop was abusive to all the children, and expert at pitting his wives against each other. They don't dare not snap to when he orders you. He can use violence, or against the children.

The other element he determines the status that his wife has in the family. If you have a lower status you may be abused and assigned jobs no one wants to do and your children will be deprived of fun activities. He'll do whatever is necessary to maintain the level of control he has to have.

Merrill did a form of water torture on babies "breaking them" he would spank them until they cried out of control and then he would hold them under water. He'd take them out and spank them again and do it again. It was to instill an extreme fear of their father but do it at an age where later they wouldn't remember it. He did it to my child, I can't talk about it without tears, pregnant and I was terrified. I didn't dare say anything, he would hurt my baby worse. He didn't do it in front of me again, but he did it with several of my babies but not in front of me.

Kathy: She's right, the community is expert at breaking down relationships between parents, mothers especially. I have not heard any of the mothers say they're worried about what the children are feeling, they're worried about them being missing or not being home but not once have I heard them say I wonder what my baby is doing.
.

Leila
04-17-2008, 10:27 PM
How does a pregnant woman know that when her child grows up it will be an attorney?






She craves baloney.:crazy:

LOL :clap:

mollymalone
04-17-2008, 10:28 PM
"President of the Texas bar: The reports I get back from the ad litems, the children are not opening up to their lawyers. They're trying to have an age appropriate discussion with them. It's going to take more than
one conversation with them, going to take time."

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:31 PM
7:56 p.m. - An attorney representing four mothers steps forward to say that none of the evidence and pleadings involves her clients and their children.
"Nevertheless, they are detained at the (San Angelo) coliseum," said the attorney whose firm represents more than 40 mothers.
"There is no mother at the coliseum or at the Wells Fargo Pavilion that is an adult or that everyone agrees is an adult that is detained," the judge said. "Your clients, the mothers, are not being held by this court."
"I'm supposed to tell the mother of my 2-year-old that she's free to go?" the attorney said.
Meanwhile, the child stays.
The sect members in the auditorium applaud loudly as the attorney drives home her point.
"Then if you're going to take the position these women are being detained, then they can't stay unless they sign something that says they want to stay," the judge said.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:33 PM
8:37 p.m.: The judge returns to the bench.
"I personally am happy to work until midnight," she said.
But her staff is telling her that's not a good idea.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-17-2008, 10:44 PM
9 p.m. - The judge finishes up with a final question and leaves the bench.
A San Angelo police officer walks through asking everyone to wrap it up because the building is closing. Few people remain.
Outside, an FLDS woman and man walk into the night.

KR2tonenow
04-17-2008, 11:24 PM
If the children aren't there, the welfare checks stop. Hopefully the compound will be forced to close down!

Unfortunately, then the tax dollars go towards this long drawn out trial for years.

Glow
04-18-2008, 12:52 AM
I agree. The first thing that should have happened here is to shut down the money. That would have brought the SLDS leadership to the negotiating table quickly. Instead the state of Texas is spending in excess of $60,000.00 per/day to "hold" these children in what must be to them a very unkind environment.

philamena
04-18-2008, 12:55 AM
IF those kids are being fed and taken care of, instead of beaten and raped, then the $60,000.00 is worth it. imo of course.

barb0301
04-18-2008, 06:59 AM
If the children aren't there, the welfare checks stop. Hopefully the compound will be forced to close down!

Unfortunately, then the tax dollars go towards this long drawn out trial for years.

I don't think they have been able to draw welfare here in TX as they have been in other states. Maybe some food stamps and WIC, but not actual checks. It's much harder to qualify for financial help here. But, you're right...if they were getting help, and the children are no longer there, the help should stop automatically.

SuziQ
04-18-2008, 10:17 AM
As yesterday the update page is down. Here is the link anyways if you want to keep trying it.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

Ca-Sun
04-18-2008, 11:20 AM
This is working, right now anyway... http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/

LIVE FROM THE COURTHOUSE: Updates on FLDS custody hearing

By Matt Phinney (http://www.gosanangelo.com/staff/matthew-phinney/) (Contact (http://www.gosanangelo.com/staff/matthew-phinney/contact/))
Originally published 06:57 p.m., April 17, 2008
Updated 09:36 p.m., April 17, 2008

SuziQ
04-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Ca-Sun, it sure is. Thanks for the heads up!

Pepper
04-18-2008, 11:43 AM
Anything happening in the courthouse today?

SuziQ
04-18-2008, 11:48 AM
I haven't found any updates this morning.

I'm going to move the colorado arrest for false calls to here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63613

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:11 PM
9:35 a.m. - The hearing was scheduled to begin at 9:30 a.m., but the judge has not yet appeared on the bench. Attorneys are still trickling into the auditorium, and fewer journalists than Thursday dot the seats designated for them.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:12 PM
9:49 a.m. - All rise for 51st District Judge Barbara Walther.
She announces the cutoff for testimony is 4 p.m. today.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:14 PM
9:52 a.m. - A child's attorney protests that the children were interviewed without parents present.
That's the proper procedure, a prosecutor says.
The judge asks the child's attorney whether she's proposing that a possible perpetrator be present during CPS interview. No, the attorney says.
Under questioning, Voss says specific men in the community are suspected perpetrators of child abuse.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:15 PM
10:04 a.m. - The parents' attorney complains that her mothers haven't been served proper legal documents.
The judge notes the problem of identifying the parents, and that names are "being switched back and forth" in the case.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:17 PM
10:11 a.m. - "Now, this line had better be attorneys that are representing parents," the judge says before another attorney steps up.
An attorney grouses about that, but the judge tells him, "Have a seat."
It appears that the crowd of attorneys in the auditorium is reduced by at least one-third Friday compared to the previous day, and those who are present seem deflated after the 11 hours of attorney talk and testimony Thursday.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:18 PM
10:23 a.m. - The judge tells the local attorney to sit down.
More parents' attorneys come forward, including an attorney for some of the fathers.
The men were not taken from the ranch? the attorney says. The judge makes it clear he needs to move on and does.
Under questioning, Voss says she believes most of the mothers have gone back to the ranch.
"Get to the point!" the judge says.
So each of these mothers is in her individual home? the dads' attorney says.
Objections stop him cold.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:19 PM
10:45 a.m. - The judge decides she has heard all the testimony she needs from Voss, and the CPS supervisor steps down, at long last.
A child psychiatrist from the Department of Family and Protective Services takes the stand.
A prosecutor questions him to establish his expertise in working with children, as well as children such as those at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
A parents' attorney objects that the psychiatrist's testimony is not appropriate and needlessly goes over old ground.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:21 PM
11:02 a.m. - "This man has lots of information that the court has already heard about. I don't know why we're hearing about it again," the parents' attorney says.
But the judge decides to let the psychiatrist's testimony go on, much as she would like to shorten the hearing, because she says she thinks it's helping her in her decision.
The prosecutor asks the witness what he advised CPS to do regarding the children. The psychiatrist says he felt it was highly likely that these children would not be comfortable providing certain information.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:23 PM
11:24 a.m. - The psychiatrist says that FLDS members who leave the group are "highly vulnerable" to people who would exploit them because of their upbringing.
It's because they're behind in their decision-making capabilities - they haven't matured, he says.
He testifies that he asked three of the "young women" whether they would allow him to take their pulse, but told them that he didn't have to - it was up to them. They appeared to be flummoxed by having to make a choice, he says.
It's not easy to break the children's thought patterns, the psychiatrist says. When you are socialized in a belief and behavior that's deeply ingrained as part of their religion, it's very hard to get a person to see that the belief and associated behavior are wrong, he says.
An objection comes up that the psychiatrist is no more qualified to give expert testimony than anyone in the courtroom.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:25 PM
11:31 a.m. - Another parents' attorney zeroes in on the pyschiatrist's testimony about taking the women's pulse: Would they have been afraid of him, or afraid of appearing uncooperative?

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:26 PM
Judge has just annouced that everything will be wrapped up by 4:00pm. So we could possibly have a decision today.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:42 PM
11:38 a.m. - A parents' attorney says to the psychiatrist: How can a 6-month-old child be influenced in any way by the fact that someone a few hundred yards from them is a pregnant 16-year-old?
The psychiatrist says he didn't say that, but he offers the opinion that the children should stay with the state until officials figure out what's best for them.
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 01:44 PM
11:53 a.m - Another attorney representing parents steps forward to question the psychiatrist.
The psychiatrist says he has been told it's a blessing to have a lot of children.
An attorney for parents says: Do you know that Catholics and other religions believe it's a blessing to have children?
"I wasn't aware that I was making a pejorative comment," the witness says.
"You offered no specific testimony or evidence to the court that the respondents in this case have been neglectful to this court, have you?" the attorney says.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 02:12 PM
12:26 p.m. - Judge Walther's staff tells the room that the judge is breaking for lunch, and court will resume at 1 p.m. The staff member also says the judge still intends to end testimony at 4 p.m. but reserves the right to change that intention.
One of the FLDS sect men leaving the courthouse at noon, asked how it is going, responds, "I'm smiling."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

barb0301
04-18-2008, 02:36 PM
Been in bed w/migraine all morning - how's it been going LadyBass?

SuziQ
04-18-2008, 02:38 PM
Been in bed w/migraine all morning - how's it been going LadyBass?

Ack, I hate migraines. She's doing great, much better than the media who curiously is undereporting the hearing if they report at all that is!

JerzWhim
04-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Is the court allowing any live feeds of these proceedings? I have searched local and national websites but have been unsuccessful in finding one.

barb0301
04-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Ack, I hate migraines. She's doing great, much better than the media who curiously is undereporting the hearing if they report at all that is!

Migraines are a pain in the derriere, especially since for me, they are usually a precursor for my seizures......ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sooooo mad at the media, they continue to ignore these proceedings !!!! What's up with that?

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 02:48 PM
12:57 p.m. - A woman in a long, turquoise-colored prairie dress stands behind one of the pillars in front of the courthouse talking at length into a cell phone. She walks away into the courthouse, still talking on the phone.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 02:49 PM
Been in bed w/migraine all morning - how's it been going LadyBass?

Hey Barb sorry about your migraine. We may have a decision within 24 hours. She is wrapping things up by 4pm central today.

mysteriew
04-18-2008, 02:55 PM
Ladybass, thank you for doing the transcribing.

I am surprised they are doing the hearing this way. I had really hoped they would do it by 'family' specifically the fathers family. And have each of the mother's associated with the fathers included with the father. That would give them a large group, give them a better look at the individual family situation and would stop the name-switching, child switching. Unclaimed children could then be dealt with at the end of the proceeding.

Of course it would emphasize the multiple wives and so defense attorneys would probably object. But it would help resolve the attorneys request for individual proceedings.

StealthTheory
04-18-2008, 02:57 PM
I really don't feel good about these hearrings being grouped like this...

LinasK
04-18-2008, 02:58 PM
Attorney Hays: "The Texas law is well laid out in the code how you remove the child. If there is abuse in the household by one parent and the other parent doesn't do anything about it, the child can be removed permanently or temporarily."
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:00 PM
I really don't feel good about these hearrings being grouped like this...

I think the judge is doing the best she can. She doesn't want to be there for 70 hours or more. Its not the best solution, but I think with the circumstances, It is better then nothing,


BTW I am not transcribing, I am getting it off the San Angelo site. And just copying it here.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:02 PM
130 are under the age of 4

barb0301
04-18-2008, 03:04 PM
Ladybass, thank you for doing the transcribing.

I am surprised they are doing the hearing this way. I had really hoped they would do it by 'family' specifically the fathers family. And have each of the mother's associated with the fathers included with the father. That would give them a large group, give them a better look at the individual family situation and would stop the name-switching, child switching. Unclaimed children could then be dealt with at the end of the proceeding.

Of course it would emphasize the multiple wives and so defense attorneys would probably object. But it would help resolve the attorneys request for individual proceedings.

But do you really think they could do this since everyone is switching names, refusing to identify themselves, etc? How could they ensure that they had the correct "family members" in each group? To ensure that they have the correct birth mothers/fathers, they are going to have to do DNA tests, which is going to take some time, and is going to be strenuously objected to by the FLDS attorneys, IMO.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:07 PM
1:25 p.m. - Court is still not in session. Lawyers trickle in and huddle in groups, talking about the case. A few people from FLDS sit and wait, and some talk to a reporter.

mollymalone
04-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Ladybass, thank you for doing the transcribing.

I am surprised they are doing the hearing this way. I had really hoped they would do it by 'family' specifically the fathers family. And have each of the mother's associated with the fathers included with the father. That would give them a large group, give them a better look at the individual family situation and would stop the name-switching, child switching. Unclaimed children could then be dealt with at the end of the proceeding.

Of course it would emphasize the multiple wives and so defense attorneys would probably object. But it would help resolve the attorneys request for individual proceedings.I'm thinking it could come down to that, especially in specific individual hearings, but first they would have to do dna in order to prove which child belongs to who. Once they can construct a chart showing the man, the wives and which children belong to him it would be easier to present in court.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:10 PM
1:28 p.m. - Court is back in session.
An attorney who represents multiple mothers begins talking about not having much access to her clients. She is asking that clients be given cell phones so they can contact them, and she wants access to the coliseum, where the children are housed. The women don't have an opportunity to know what's going on in the courtroom. She says there are women with medical issues.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:11 PM
1:43 p.m. - A passing group of five Girl Scouts stops on the courthouse lawn to talk to a Tom Green County deputy.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-18-2008, 03:13 PM
1:28 p.m. - Court is back in session.
An attorney who represents multiple mothers begins talking about not having much access to her clients. She is asking that clients be given cell phones so they can contact them, and she wants access to the coliseum, where the children are housed. The women don't have an opportunity to know what's going on in the courtroom. She says there are women with medical issues.
A court staff member responds, saying people at coliseum are doing the best job they can to make the coliseum accessible to everyone. People are making sure everyone gets a chance to see their clients, he said. The judge says she can't fix last night but will work on today. She says the cell phones were removed because of inappropriate use. The women are free to leave, she said.
"I have no way of knowing what's going on out there," she said.
The lawyer said she wants cell phones returned so they can speak to clients because they won't be in San Angelo all the time.
The judge said she is not keeping the clients; they are free to go any time.

Seems to me that the judge has already made her decision (to keep the children in state custody)! But is just going through the process to give everyone a fair chance!