Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[LionRun]

Amen.

Hi froggie:) I hope and pray that at least some of those children can heal.

And, I hope that the leaders of that cult face justice head on.

Lion

[mysteriew]

I most definitely and most assuredly will not be sending a donation! :D I sure wish they had included an email addy though.............would love to tell them what I think of them! :)

LOL, I have been thinking of purchasing a Monopoly game just for situations such as this. All that lovely fake money, to send to all these "unjustly accused."

[LionRun]

:clap: Excellent post!

Thank you so much, Leila:).

Lion

[froggierintexas]

Hi! I do too.

I have been reading all of the posts. I can see some great compassion and thought put into many of the posts. I think I could write a book on what I feel and think about it, so I will leave it to y'all. Thank you to everyone who has provided links to information, articles, photos and video. I have learned so much.

[mysteriew]

Check out the comments in the blog. They are asking for "information guerillas" talking about "resistance" and say they will provide training.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

[mysteriew]

The number of children has now gone from 416 to 437.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272744,00.html

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Gosh - great posts, everyone: these last 5 or 6 pages is like reading a continuing gripping true-life story. I'm addicted to this background...

Philamena: :clap: I feel you captured the bottom line right here:

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE PREDATOR WAS A TEEN OR AN ADULT OR A FRIGGIN BABY SITTER.....SINCE she was only 13 when this happened, a SEXUAL PREDATOR ABUSED HER.
WHY don't you understand that?

THERE WILL NEVER, EVER BE AN EXCUSE OR REASON TO ACCEPT SEXUAL ABUSE OF A CHILD THAT IS A MINOR.

There is a reason you use such dogged determination when taking up for sexual predators. I find that very scary.

Linask: The factual logic and completely transparent insight of your posts screams 'total understanding'. To me, your posts offer calm and uncomplaining - yet very bravely experienced insight re the psyche / affects of all of this. More power to you esp thru all you've experienced! I certainly don't mean to patronize.

Flowerchild & Leila: That was excellent reading - wow ... Flower's detailed "tell it like it is" posts and Leila's concise fact-sheet, earlier on. Thank you. Things that defy human understanding are (despite still shockingly unbelievable to me) have been given (tragic) form and shape in all of this. My word...

mysteriew: Good lord, to me your commentary and keeping up the debate with such passion to breakthrough (perceived, contrite or totally unintentional) barriers forces me to read responses!!

LionRun - agreed with this post of yours

There are some foster homes in Texas and other states where sexual, physical, and emotional abuse occur. I agree. But, that is not the case with most foster homes. Many children have a chance in the foster care system. I believe there is a 100% chance that any child raised within the FLDS compound will suffer at least one type of abuse. Some may never heal.


and your more recent comment:

And, I hope that the leaders of that cult face justice head on.

Ca-Sun: Again, feel I'm on your same page with this:

FLDS is nothing more than a cult, run by power hungry pedophiles. IMO

Glow: (hee hee, just had to make your color 'glow', lol...). While your passion and determination is very clear, I'm not sure of where the sense of loss or let down is that you clearly have (please note, just my perception).

Is it with FLDS, CPS, ACLU, LE, humanity, religion, the media reports, the "invasion" into lives we should not worry about or is it babies and toddlers taken from nursing / weaning / natural moms? Is it about breaking up families? Is it that the outside world is breaking into places they shouldn't go (in your opinion - just as this is my confusion). While I don't think you're "wrong", I just don't grip the fault-line here, that's all. Babies are taken from HIV mothers to thwart the dangers of infected breast-milk; ditto drug addicts - I once watched a horrific documentary on the result of drug-addicted babies. This because of the dangerous and immoral acts of the mothers.

Does it TRULY (not W/S's truly - great comments there, too, btw...) not bother you that the world has rapidly advanced in our human behaviors regarding child-protection and nurturing? Please forgive me here, because I do not make light of this illness ... but as in early stages Alzheimers somehow and astonishingly-so comes to my mind. An illness I witnessed fairly close to home. The blankness; the withdrawal; the repeated statements; the lack of instant emotive responses in the women. And then, yes, pedophilia strikes me loud and clear, here. Gang-style and horrific. When a female becomes fertile, that's not (in many opinions) OK to intercept. It's called puberty: a gentle, beautiful inner awakening to be regarded as sacred and to be kept pristine until *all other natural, physical, mental, spiritual and social factors* have grown accustomed to God's aging process. To be de-frocked, by force and by the CHOICES of an "awarded" male is just too horrendous to happen once, let alone en-masse and as a no-nonsense "given". What a shuddering-ly bleak future to anticipate as as a beautiful ... LITTLE GIRL.

Human machines. God forgive me, but I think of The Boys from Brazil ... or other equally horrific ordeals our species has subjected its populations to. And no, I'm not gunning for nazism ... think about female circumcision; forced prostitution; rent-boys and,sadly, much more.

All of these horrific acts are done for money, power and control. The FLDS are no different, despite there being, IMO, a group of women to turn to "afterwards". But what advice and comfort is given when a young girl's body, spirit, mind and understanding is snatched and her youth destroyed by some prowling male as if this is a cattle-sale? They are simply and succinctly advised to "Stay Sweet". Oh my God...

No. NOOO! This will be a traumatic experience and clearly the US, CPS (incl medical & legal) and all other highly trained and skilled people & mechanisms have been mobilized to ensure the best outcome and a positive future for these kids. Think of the baby-boys - some may be tossed out as "lost-boys". It's far better to save these little-ones earlier rather than .... later. These (rescued) children won't be tossed out or touched, one prays - but it'll be difficult, sure. It will, one hopes, literally .... begin the end. The end of a "chain factory to go out and selectively conquer, program, multiply and then totally worship just one man's ideals and cause here on God's earth".

Floh said it best pages-back, unquoted as I cannot find the page, lol!!: Glow's approach won't change...

Sorry so long - such immense reading / input. Congrats to all :clap: :clap: :clap:

froggierintexas: Well, isn't your comment so true! Just saw your congratulatory post as I finished this. AGREED 100% :clap:

There are just too many to caption all. This thread, topic has been one of the most informative, thought-provoking and inspiring in a long, long time. Brilliant!

Said my piece for the next 10 pages, lol (again, so sorry about length!!! It's all your faults)

:blowkiss:

"Proud to be a W/S-er!!!"

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Ohmigosh, mysteriew. Appreciate your finding this article and offering the link. I also read (in an early option to "read more") the tracked info-background in this story.

The author used the words "Twilight Zone" ... uh-huh. I recognize that sentiment.

Here's the bit I found compelling... [snipped - the bold, red and brackets are mine]:

[Reporter asks] How do you know that?

Bistline: I just know those people. I’m related to pretty near every one of them. I knew them growing up, I know what they’re taught, and I know how they live. Have you listened to some of the answers those girls they’ve questioned give when they ask them if they know of any underage pregnancies? It don’t take no psychological genius to know those girls are lying. You can tell they’re lying by their answers.

So it’s definitely going on, and it needed to be stopped. And I don’t know how else they could’ve done it. They went in there with guns drawn and all that because they didn’t know what to expect. They’d lived through the Waco thing. I don’t blame them for that. What they do now, though is crucial.

Society knows this is all wrong; regular citizens know it's wrong; as do LE, relevant authorities, runaways, the lost boys, torn teens, some cult-mothers ... good grief. Going back to an earlier post of mine: religious LEADERS and figureheads *know* it is ... w-r-o-n-g.

D'you or anyone here think "this sect" may even be outlawed as illegal in the US constitution? Would - or could - such a law ever be implemented and sustained as a banned institution, specifically due to acute brainwashing and child abuse?

As a complete aside: do any of these people have the right to vote? Just asking b/c today's a Big Day in the Campaign Trail. If not, surely that's also breaching human-rights? What about "freedom of speech, true social security, and opportunities for all American citizens?"

Hell, the full impact of it all just gets scarier by the day.

Thanks for the links. I'm truly gobsmacked as in: an instant-frozen-smack-of-a-jaw-drop :eek: .




Check out the comments in the blog. They are asking for "information guerillas" talking about "resistance" and say they will provide training.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

[PolkSaladAnnie]

For those of you that watch DR Phil he will be covering this story for Tuesday and Wednesday shows.

Final comment (yep - promise!)

Hi Ladybass. Thanks for heads-up on this. Not sure if this is appropriate to comment like this in here - def don't want to start a TV war *but* .... I used to watch his early shows. The last year odd? (IMO) It's disintegrated into a blatantly moral-defying, hour-long "punch-up".

Somewhere along the line, purpose & dignity went backstage and returned as some abominable adult Show-&-TELL type of mud (or trash) wrestling match.

I could care less if he's a real doc (lol, "Dr. Spock" wasn't a doctor), so Phil McGraw is whatever he is - but at least he usually had known professionals and experts on the show. That's about the only upside - and although I've ceased watching, I truly hope his take on this is far more dignified, informative and caring.

Will be interesting to know how it went, tho, if anyone caught it??

Thanks again.

[SuziQ]

Check out the comments in the blog. They are asking for "information guerillas" talking about "resistance" and say they will provide training.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

lol, we are not the only one who noticed the "unibrow". The Twilight Zone comparison is the perfect description.

I've been fascinated by the morbid Twilight Zone-like tours of YFZ by sometimes unibrowed FLDS moms

[Pepper]

Was watching Fox this AM and there was an ACLU attorney on with another attorney. The ACLU attorney was saying that the rights of the mothers and the children were violated because they were separated. She believed the mothers should be allowed to be with their children because of the emotional distress in the separation.

I say if the mothers are allowed to have their children with them, it opens up the county to more violations of rights. The mothers will claim they are being held against their will if they are held away from YFZ and if they are allowed to go where they wish they will take the children back to the compound, and nothing will be gained.

I think the Texas authorities are doing everything they can to expedite this process keeping in mind what is best for the children. It is bound to be painful for the children but children can and have adapted to change. The only other alternative is to give up and send everyone back to the compound, and that would be a disasterous for the welfare of the children.

[winteryns]

Have they mentioned how many boys versus girls they have in custody yet? I haven't seen it yet and I would really like to know...so much that I tried to call into Nancy Grace last night to see if I could ask that question..lol

[galvino]

Just watched Dr Phil, and even tho I think he is a media whore who loves to sensationalize, it was a good show- interesting to hear from someone else who has left the cult and who hasn't been out speaking on other shows.

[SieSie]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/Blue7/WS/FLDS_Abuse.jpg

[SieSie]

Have they mentioned how many boys versus girls they have in custody yet? I haven't seen it yet and I would really like to know...so much that I tried to call into Nancy Grace last night to see if I could ask that question..lol
Good question, I'm curious about that, too!! :D

I was really hoping we'd have a forum for this by now, it's so hard to keep all the information straight as there are so many different areas of discussion with this whole FLDS thing. I would like a forum so we could have separate threads for things such as:

** Former Members Speak
** FLDS Beliefs
** Warren Jeffs
** The CPS Case
** Women and Girls - "Being Submissive", etc...
** The Lost Boys
** Abuse - Physical, Emotional, Sexual
** Brainwashing
** Rosita Swinton
** Other Compounds, Locations, Etc...

As you can see, I think we have more than enough different areas of discussion to have a forum dedicated to the FLDS, but since it's a religious thing, maybe that's why it hasn't been done???

[cheko1]

If it is found that girls are turned over to men at puberty to, "marry" the men, "have sex" with the men, and have babies then to me it is point blank pedophilia, sexual abuse, and rape.

If it is found that babies are water boarded from infancy to learn to remain submissive and to be taught not to cry, then that is point blank physical abuse.

I think that the FLDS is not a religion, but a dangerous cult started by pedophiles with a pathological need to control people, and that they do it all in the false name of religion.

The devil can quote the bible for his own evil works. I think the leaders of the FLDS are quoting the bible to have power over others, act out on their pedophilia, and do whatever other disgraceful things that we don't yet know about.

There are some foster homes in Texas and other states where sexual, physical, and emotional abuse occur. I agree. But, that is not the case with most foster homes. Many children have a chance in the foster care system. I believe there is a 100% chance that any child raised within the FLDS compound will suffer at least one type of abuse. Some may never heal.

Lion

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Floh]

Good question, I'm curious about that, too!! :D

I was really hoping we'd have a forum for this by now, it's so hard to keep all the information straight as there are so many different areas of discussion with this whole FLDS thing. I would like a forum so we could have separate threads for things such as:

** Former Members Speak
** FLDS Beliefs
** Warren Jeffs
** The CPS Case
** Women and Girls - "Being Submissive", etc...
** The Lost Boys
** Abuse - Physical, Emotional, Sexual
** Brainwashing
** Rosita Swinton
** Other Compounds, Locations, Etc...

As you can see, I think we have more than enough different areas of discussion to have a forum dedicated to the FLDS, but since it's a religious thing, maybe that's why it hasn't been done???

I rather believe this may be what the hold up is. there is room for even more topics within the forum besides those you've listed, i think. it's a case which has vast amount of points to be made and chewed on.

[SieSie]

I rather believe this may be what the hold up is. there is room for even more topics within the forum besides those you've listed, i think. it's a case which has vast amount of points to be made and chewed on.
Yup, I think so, too. What other topics would you list (just out of curiosity)? :D

[FlowerChild]

The number of children has now gone from 416 to 437.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272744,00.html

Because with most of the older "women" (can you say enforcers?) sent away (back to the ranch) the authorities (CPS/LE) have now discovered that SEVERAL of the "women" that were allowed to stay - those pregnant, with infants and very small (under age 2) children - WERE NOT 18 YEARS OLD. From the current count of 437 (up from 416) - I would say 21 of them. And there may be MORE that are at the ranch now who are SAYING they are 18 or older, but when more records are located will be found to be 16 or 17.

I am gonna go out on a limb and say that about 450-460 children (under the age of 18) are at that ranch - and that another 15 or 20 of the women over 18 will be found to have given birth before they were 18 OR because they came from FLDS groups in Canada or Mexico/South America will in the FUTURE be found to be under 18. And since the ranch has been in existence for 4 or so years, I would also guess there are going to be questions about the whereabouts of 15 or 20 BOYS who WERE at the ranch and are now "missing" or supposedly elsewhere - but cannot be accounted for within the FLDS.

Because this "Ranch" is supposedly the highest tier of the FLDS at this time, this case is going to spread across the US and into Canada, Mexico and South America. This may be the "spiritual center" of FLDS at this time - and all things flow downhill from there. I hope that this raid has literally cut the regenerating head (which was regrowing after the conviction of Warren Jeffs and his crew) off the FLDS and MAYBE put the entire "body" at risk. Warren Jeffs was on the run for a while before he was arrested and he spent that time trying to protect his little private kingdom, but this raid has dealt that kingdom a very serious wound and while bandages are being applied in MANY places, I think with their "Prophet" Warren Jeffs and Co in PRISON, the possible anarchy among the remaining "shepherds" and their loss of so many "sheep" and the big gaping hole in the fence, allowing the WORLD to see inside, might put the whole operation at risk of collapse.

My Opinion

[barb0301]

Have they mentioned how many boys versus girls they have in custody yet? I haven't seen it yet and I would really like to know...so much that I tried to call into Nancy Grace last night to see if I could ask that question..lol

I only know that 27 adolescent boys were taken and put into a group foster home last week (removed from the rest of the group). As far as boys 10 and under, I'm not sure of the numbers.

[Floh]

Yup, I think so, too. What other topics would you list (just out of curiosity)? :D

The government being invasive
Those who choose an alternative lifestyle (without the abuse!)
The Latter Day Saints NOT being anything to do with the FLDS
Communal living


just off the top of my head. :)

ETA: International trafficking

[SweetPea2]

I didn't see this posted so forgive me if it has been.

Men From Polygamy Sect Speak

Many of the men in the polygamist sect in Eldorado, Texas didn't know it is illegal to marry someone under 18, one of them tells Early Show co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez in an exclusive interview.

Rodriguez conducted the interview Sunday night with three men whose children were among more than 400 removed by authorities from the sect's compound in a raid earlier this month.

It was the first time since the raid that any male members of the sect spoke with a member of the media.

In the wide-ranging interview, Rodriguez asked, “After all this, can you see why society looks upon you and says, ‘A girl who's younger than 18 shouldn't be married and having sex?’ Has this forced you to reconsider?”

One of the men, who identified himself as Rulon (none of the three offered a last name) responded, "Yes, many of us perhaps were not even aware of such a law, but yes, we have been made very aware in the last two weeks and we do reconsider -- yes.” Rulon says he has six children, ranging in age from a year to nine.

All three said they would submit to DNA testing, as ordered by a Texas judge who wanted to help authorities determine who the parents of the children in custory are.

A man who gave his name as Edson and told Rodriguez he has four children, from almost four-years-old to 11, took issue with the view that youngsters are abused in the compound.

"I think they have a very false perception of the way we live because we're closed mouthed," Edson said. "They assume a lot of things that aren't there."

More @ Link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/earlyshow/main4029811.shtml

[Glow]

Found one for you!

Underage and Pregnant

On Thursday, testimony in the giant custody case revealed that more than 20 girls taken from the polygamist Texas ranch became pregnant or gave birth before they were 16 or 17.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4686862&page=1

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.

[FlowerChild]

I didn't see this posted so forgive me if it has been.

Men From Polygamy Sect Speak

Many of the men in the polygamist sect in Eldorado, Texas didn't know it is illegal to marry someone under 18, one of them tells Early Show co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez in an exclusive interview.

Rodriguez conducted the interview Sunday night with three men whose children were among more than 400 removed by authorities from the sect's compound in a raid earlier this month.

It was the first time since the raid that any male members of the sect spoke with a member of the media.

In the wide-ranging interview, Rodriguez asked, “After all this, can you see why society looks upon you and says, ‘A girl who's younger than 18 shouldn't be married and having sex?’ Has this forced you to reconsider?”

One of the men, who identified himself as Rulon (none of the three offered a last name) responded, "Yes, many of us perhaps were not even aware of such a law, but yes, we have been made very aware in the last two weeks and we do reconsider -- yes.” Rulon says he has six children, ranging in age from a year to nine.

All three said they would submit to DNA testing, as ordered by a Texas judge who wanted to help authorities determine who the parents of the children in custory are.

A man who gave his name as Edson and told Rodriguez he has four children, from almost four-years-old to 11, took issue with the view that youngsters are abused in the compound.

"I think they have a very false perception of the way we live because we're closed mouthed," Edson said. "They assume a lot of things that aren't there."

More @ Link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/earlyshow/main4029811.shtml

~~~I call BS~~~
"Rulon" No Last Name is probably Rulon JEFFS!

And since Warren Jeffs (their "Prophet") is in PRISON for "sealing" (spiritually marrying) a 14 year old girl to one of his "Apostles" (minions) as one of his multiple wives, I have difficulty believing that the "priests" (men over 18) of the church did NOT KNOW THAT giving in marriage or marrying a girl under age 16 was illegal.

And it has been PROVEN over and over that this group has no moral issue with lying repeatedly to the "beast" (outside world/Govt/LE) to gain something from them. They are "trained" (brainwashed/indoctrinated) from birth to put on a different face to the outside world and say and do whatever the MUST to make those outsiders go away and leave them alone. Funny how lies INSIDE are punishable by excommunication-expulsion or worse "blood atonement" but lies to the outside are rewarded and praised.

My "hinky meter" goes right off the dial when I see ANY of these women or men on TV - they all have that same soft, unemotional, carefully worded, flat, toneless speech and affect and those badly acted emotions on their faces. It's like they are pod people and aren't very good at displaying real human emotions - so they have to fake it...badly. And because they are so isolated, they have no frame of reference and THINK they are really good at it...but they aren't. It reminds me of a 5 year old making up a "story" to explain how something got broken - they try so hard to make the story convincing, but they just aren't schooled enough in what REAL PEOPLE do, or say, or how their faces and body language look in similar situations to pull it off. Perhaps the "Prophet" should let them watch the "Hallmark" Channel or Lifetime Movies so they can get some idea of how the "infidels" out here will expect them to act when their children are removed en-mass and they are accused of institutionalized abuse??? I listened to Warren Jeff,s "teachings" on You Tube and they ALL SOUND JUST LIKE HIM!!! I am sure the MEN love that meek, unemotional, affect in their women - then they more closely resemble pastel door mats - and even the MEN take it on when they know they are being monitored or taped (just like Warren Jeffs did). But... it doesn't play in the heathen land out here where us infidels and sinners live because even the most out of touch can clearly see that it's not REAL or NATURAL behavior OR EMOTION. And as savvy as they THINK they are, and as practiced at the lies, this time it isn't going to work for them...the people they are dealing with now have seen and heard it ALL and I am sure most of them privately think it borders on learned sociopathy.

Anyone watch "Dexter"? This strikes me as the same thing as Dexter's Father teaching a born sociopath to ACT NORMAL and DISPLAY NORMAL EMOTIONS and CONTROL his urges. The FLDS seems to "train" sociopathy into the kids and then turn around and as adults, try to teach them NORMAL.

My Opinion

[Floh]

Pod People. indeed! :(

[SweetPea2]

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.
BUT...they were/are NOT legally married, thereforth it makes it R-A-P-E. A "spiritual ceremony" does not make it legal to rape litttle girls! :furious:

[SieSie]

The government being invasive
Those who choose an alternative lifestyle (without the abuse!)
The Latter Day Saints NOT being anything to do with the FLDS
Communal living


just off the top of my head. :)

ETA: International trafficking
Good ones, Floh! :D

Mods - can we have an answer as to whether this will be getting it's own forum or not? Is it still in discussion or has it been decided?? Thanks. :D

[Mygirlsadie]

How come during interviews they all talk the same? Like they are in a trance or something. It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen. They barely answer questions either. Every question gets answered with ''we need our children back''..Yeah really? What do you NEED them for?

[Mygirlsadie]

Exactly! And not to mention that regardless if these little/young girls wanted the sex from the older men or not it's not like they had a say so in the situation. They are taught to accept it as a part of their ''life''... :rolleyes: So disgusting.



BUT...they were/are NOT legally married, thereforth it makes it R-A-P-E. A "spiritual ceremony" does not make it legal to rape litttle girls! :furious:

[Glow]

BUT...they were/are NOT legally married, thereforth it makes it R-A-P-E.

having sex while not married is not what makes something rape. If they were 14 years old in the year 2005 the state of Texas said they were legally allowed to marry.


A "spiritual ceremony" does not make it legal to rape litttle girls! :furious:

that speaks to the issue of polygamy. There are two seperate issues going on here although it seems to keep getting balled up into one.

[SewingDeb]

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.

I can see what you are saying when comparing the number of underage girls who became pregnant in Texas with the number who became pregnant in the FDLS compound but there is one big difference. I would wager that the majority of the girls in Texas chose to have sex whereas the FDLS girls are assigned partners and have no real choice in the matter. Also, many of the Texas girls may be Hispanic and their culture seems to find it normal for young girls to date older men...still their choice.

In the FDLS compound there is no dating that I can see. No choosing a marriage partner.

[FlowerChild]

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.

Actually it really doesn't apply in many of the cases HERE because very FEW of these GIRLS are actually legally MARRIED to the man who fathered the child. They can claim ignorance for ACTUAL LEGAL marriages (registered with the state) that took place AFTER 2005 but I assume that most of the GIRLS are legally single (and thus entitled to state benefits) and then it would be statutory RAPE. And IF the person claimed or met the qualifications for Texas's "common law marriage" and was thusly "married" to more than one woman at a time - the MAN is also guilty of bigamy.

And I am not sure, but I believe - even before the 2005 law change - that a girl UNDER AGE 18 MUST have her parent's permission AND appear before a JUDGE to "marry". Well if the marriage is to be a legal one anyway. What this group is doing is being done OUTSIDE of the law on MANY LEVELS - and "celestial plural marriage" of girls UNDER AGE 18 in TEXAS looks like ABUSE and RAPE - forced by her parents - in the eyes of the LAW. It's a hair away from organized pedophelia, pandering and human traffic-ing. I doubt the FLDS parents were/are running to court to get permission every time Warren Jeffs ordered a girl under age 18 to "seal" herself to some old man in a "secret celestial plural marriage" ceremony.

And I think there are plenty of
A- girls who gave birth before 2005 and were age 14 or under and B - girls who gave birth and are currently pregnant at age 16 or under.
Once ACCURATE information is available I think we will ALL be stunned at the numbers at just this ONE property - and know for every 1 girl here, there are likely 5 more somewhere ELSE.

My Opinion

[SweetPea2]

How come during interviews they all talk the same? Like they are in a trance or something. It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen. They barely answer questions either. Every question gets answered with ''we need our children back''..Yeah really? What do you NEED them for?

this bothered me too. They are distant and don't come off as loving parents. They call them children and child. Me, I'd be pleading I want my son and my daughter home where they belong. They are just so impersonal with it.

[Niner]

Not sure if this was ever resolved - as I haven't had time to read the last 10 or so pages!! I couldn't get those 3 signatures to print over on this post - but the original postings are here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63273&page=34 post #832

I sent a copy to a handwriting expert - Cherokee - from another forum and here is what she had to say about those 3 signatures:

I took a look at the signatures. Yes, there is a high degree of probability they were signed by one person. It's obvious someone tried to alter the handwriting a little to make it look like three different people, but the same handwriting/personality traits came out in the signatures. In particular, the capital "J" in Jessop and Johnson is a VERY unusual exemplar that is the same in both names. Also, the capitals "S" and "M" are made with the exact same strokes although there was an attempt to slightly alter their look. There are many other similarities, too numerous to mention here.

There is a quirkiness to the handwriting that is present in all three signatures. It would be next to impossible for three different women to have the same unusual traits in their signatures. In particular, signatures are always very personal as they represent the writer's identity as they want to be seen by others.

I don't know who signed that document, but it wasn't three different women. It was signed by one woman, or man, for all three.

So I hope that is cleared up!! :)

[mysteriew]

]~~~I call BS~~~
"Rulon" No Last Name is probably Rulon JEFFS!

And since Warren Jeffs (their "Prophet") is in PRISON for "sealing" (spiritually marrying) a 14 year old girl to one of his "Apostles" (minions) as one of his multiple wives, I have difficulty believing that the "priests" (men over 18) of the church did NOT KNOW THAT giving in marriage or marrying a girl under age 16 was illegal.
And it has been PROVEN over and over that this group has no moral issue with lying repeatedly to the "beast" (outside world/Govt/LE) to gain something from them. They are "trained" (brainwashed/indoctrinated) from birth to put on a different face to the outside world and say and do whatever the MUST to make those outsiders go away and leave them alone. Funny how lies INSIDE are punishable by excommunication-expulsion or worse "blood atonement" but lies to the outside are rewarded and praised.

My "hinky meter" goes right off the dial when I see ANY of these women or men on TV - they all have that same soft, unemotional, carefully worded, flat, toneless speech and affect and those badly acted emotions on their faces. It's like they are pod people and aren't very good at displaying real human emotions - so they have to fake it...badly. And because they are so isolated, they have no frame of reference and THINK they are really good at it...but they aren't. It reminds me of a 5 year old making up a "story" to explain how something got broken - they try so hard to make the story convincing, but they just aren't schooled enough in what REAL PEOPLE do, or say, or how their faces and body language look in similar situations to pull it off. Perhaps the "Prophet" should let them watch the "Hallmark" Channel or Lifetime Movies so they can get some idea of how the "infidels" out here will expect them to act when their children are removed en-mass and they are accused of institutionalized abuse??? I listened to Warren Jeff,s "teachings" on You Tube and they ALL SOUND JUST LIKE HIM!!! I am sure the MEN love that meek, unemotional, affect in their women - then they more closely resemble pastel door mats - and even the MEN take it on when they know they are being monitored or taped (just like Warren Jeffs did). But... it doesn't play in the heathen land out here where us infidels and sinners live because even the most out of touch can clearly see that it's not REAL or NATURAL behavior OR EMOTION. And as savvy as they THINK they are, and as practiced at the lies, this time it isn't going to work for them...the people they are dealing with now have seen and heard it ALL and I am sure most of them privately think it borders on learned sociopathy.

Anyone watch "Dexter"? This strikes me as the same thing as Dexter's Father teaching a born sociopath to ACT NORMAL and DISPLAY NORMAL EMOTIONS and CONTROL his urges. The FLDS seems to "train" sociopathy into the kids and then turn around and as adults, try to teach them NORMAL.

My Opinion

Excellent point! And even if the leaders lied about why he was put in prison, with the number of FLDS on the internet, someone would have found out and word would have gotten around.

[mysteriew]

Originally Posted by mysteriew
Check out the comments in the blog. They are asking for "information guerillas" talking about "resistance" and say they will provide training.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bas...lorado_cit.php

lol, we are not the only one who noticed the "unibrow". The Twilight Zone comparison is the perfect description.

I've been fascinated by the morbid Twilight Zone-like tours of YFZ by sometimes unibrowed FLDS moms

My fear is that the FLDS will respond to the latest raid by becoming a paramilitary organization. Don't forget that during the raid authorities reportedly found a cache of weapons. That is probably not their only cache. I also question whether they will attempt to organize and mount a raid of their own attempting to get the children back.

I wonder, has any media attempted to speak to Warren since the raid?

[winteryns]

I only know that 27 adolescent boys were taken and put into a group foster home last week (removed from the rest of the group). As far as boys 10 and under, I'm not sure of the numbers.

Thanks! Wow...that is a low number. Out of 400 and sum kids only 27 are adolescents? I can't wait to see how many girls are in this age group.

[SewingDeb]

I think this is an interesting blog (found it when mysteriew's link wouldn't work, don't know if it is the same one she tried to link):

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php


For some perspective, I turned to Colorado City historian Benjamin Bistline, author of The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona. Bistline, who is in his 70s, grew up in that community, experienced the Short Creek raid, and still lives just outside of Colorado City proper. Oft-quoted by those researching or writing about the FLDS, Bistline has been closely following the Texas situation and spoke to me late last week.

What’s your general impression of what’s happened in Texas? Do you think it’s an overreaction by the Texas authorities?

Bistline: It’s not overreaction. The ’53 raid at Short Creek -- there was no justification for it. I was 18 years old. I was part of that raid, when the state of Arizona raided it. That was a whole, entirely different situation. The town was open and free. We could come and go. We lived in our own houses. We weren’t living behind a big, long wall or anything.

In Texas, they’ve got a compound that’s surrounded by a fence. And those kids cannot go in or out. And I don’t think most of the women even are free to travel in or out. I know there are underage marriages going on there.

How do you know that?

Bistline: I just know those people. I’m related to pretty near every one of them. I knew them growing up, I know what they’re taught, and I know how they live. Have you listened to some of the answers those girls they’ve questioned give when they ask them if they know of any underage pregnancies? It don’t take no psychological genius to know those girls are lying. You can tell they’re lying by their answers.

[golfmom]

Not sure if this was ever resolved - as I haven't had time to read the last 10 or so pages!! I couldn't get those 3 signatures to print over on this post - but the original postings are here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63273&page=34 post #832

I sent a copy to a handwriting expert - Cherokee - from another forum and here is what she had to say about those 3 signatures:

I took a look at the signatures. Yes, there is a high degree of probability they were signed by one person. It's obvious someone tried to alter the handwriting a little to make it look like three different people, but the same handwriting/personality traits came out in the signatures. In particular, the capital "J" in Jessop and Johnson is a VERY unusual exemplar that is the same in both names. Also, the capitals "S" and "M" are made with the exact same strokes although there was an attempt to slightly alter their look. There are many other similarities, too numerous to mention here.

There is a quirkiness to the handwriting that is present in all three signatures. It would be next to impossible for three different women to have the same unusual traits in their signatures. In particular, signatures are always very personal as they represent the writer's identity as they want to be seen by others.

I don't know who signed that document, but it wasn't three different women. It was signed by one woman, or man, for all three.

So I hope that is cleared up!! :)

Niner, thanks so much for having someone look at that for us. :blowkiss:

[SewingDeb]

A whole series of articles were written for one newspaper on polygamy.

Polygamy in Arizona by John Dougherty

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/specialReports/view/212740

[golfmom]

I didn't see these posted, but if they were, my apologizes.

These are both FLDS websites:

http://captivefldschildren.org/
http://fldstruth.org/

[SweetPea2]

I agree. I just hope that everyone understands EXACTLY what we are turning these children over to. As per my previous link the state of Texas is not prepared to handle this. Abuse is simply abuse. If it takes place in a home the well meaning government put you in OR it takes place in your familiar home surroundings.

As far as abuse, there is no evidence of abuse of young children at YFZ.

:banghead: OMG! How freakin' hard headed are you? :banghead::banghead:

Testimony says there IS evidence of abuse.

[2XL]

I'm still trying to catch up, but we keep talking about the "mother's" fake tears and yet we talk about how babies are waterboarded to teach them not to cry. How many of these women have been "taught" not to cry or show emotion. Certainly not taking their side, but maybe they cannot physically do it anymore.

[Shamrock]

I'm still trying to catch up, but we keep talking about the "mother's" fake tears and yet we talk about how babies are waterboarded to teach them not to cry. How many of these women have been "taught" not to cry or show emotion. Certainly not taking their side, but maybe they cannot physically do it anymore.

That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of. Also, what are the ramifications if they do cry?? Will they be beat? Will the men beat the children when/if they return? That may be something the women are thinking.

[winteryns]

How come during interviews they all talk the same? Like they are in a trance or something. It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen. They barely answer questions either. Every question gets answered with ''we need our children back''..Yeah really? What do you NEED them for?

It's freaky for sure! I can't see myself talking calm and in that monotone voice if someone just took my kids. I'd be screeching and whining or whatever else but no emotion..nah..kinda scary.

[Leila]

lol, we are not the only one who noticed the "unibrow". The Twilight Zone comparison is the perfect description.

I've been fascinated by the morbid Twilight Zone-like tours of YFZ by sometimes unibrowed FLDS moms

Suzy.................I noted that too! :)

[winteryns]

That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of. Also, what are the ramifications if they do cry?? Will they be beat? Will the men beat the children when/if they return? That may be something the women are thinking.

:eek: I never thought of that either. They sound like recordings.

[Niner]

Niner, thanks so much for having someone look at that for us. :blowkiss:

Your most welcome, golfmom! To me it also looked like ONE person signed those signatures - so I just took to an expert!! :)

[SweetPea2]

I see some of them crying. I also see alot of confused people. I do believe this was frightening and hard on them. I can't imagine being yanked from my parents or my children being yanked from me and given to "the beast" you gotta remember this is how they have all been taught.

I KNOW there is abuse there but I couldn't help but notice how clean and well groomed they all are.

[Linda7NJ]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :banghead: OMG! How freakin' hard headed are you? :banghead::banghead:

Testimony says there IS evidence of abuse.


I gave up! But I do so appreciate this post!:blowkiss:

[Pepper]

I didn't see these posted, but if they were, my apologizes.

These are both FLDS websites:

http://captivefldschildren.org/
http://fldstruth.org/

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

They are asking for donations. Jeeze, ask Uncle Warren. He seems to have plenty of $$ sucked from the labor of children!

[LinasK]

Was watching Fox this AM and there was an ACLU attorney on with another attorney. The ACLU attorney was saying that the rights of the mothers and the children were violated because they were separated.


Since the mothers were party to the abuse, they don't get to have those rights, it's the same in any abusive household where the children are removed. The children's rights not to be abused have been violated, and that trumps any parental rights of the abusers!

[Pepper]

I see some of them crying. I also see alot of confused people. I do believe this was frightening and hard on them. I can't imagine being yanked from my parents or my children being yanked from me and given to "the beast" you gotta remember this is how they have all been taught.

I KNOW there is abuse there but I couldn't help but notice how clean and well groomed they all are.

I'd like to know how long it takes the women to tie up their hair like that? Since they never cut it, it must take half a day just to wash and dry it and braid it or however they do it.

[SweetPea2]

About them crying, I do believe that is considered a sign of weakness. I think Carolyn mentioned this on Nancy Grace the other night.

I also read that they MUST be silent during childbirth!

[Leila]

Was watching Fox this AM and there was an ACLU attorney on with another attorney. The ACLU attorney was saying that the rights of the mothers and the children were violated because they were separated. She believed the mothers should be allowed to be with their children because of the emotional distress in the separation.

I say if the mothers are allowed to have their children with them, it opens up the county to more violations of rights. The mothers will claim they are being held against their will if they are held away from YFZ and if they are allowed to go where they wish they will take the children back to the compound, and nothing will be gained.

I think the Texas authorities are doing everything they can to expedite this process keeping in mind what is best for the children. It is bound to be painful for the children but children can and have adapted to change. The only other alternative is to give up and send everyone back to the compound, and that would be a disasterous for the welfare of the children.


Under normal circumstances, a mother isn't allowed to go with the child. CPS removes the child while they do their investigation. In this particular situation, my concern is that the mothers want to be with their children so they can have an element of control, coaching the children what to say.

Initially, when the mothers were allowed to come with the children, it was learned that they were in cell phone contact with the men back at the YFZ ranch and undoubtedly being told to keep everything under control.

[SweetPea2]

I'd like to know how long it takes the women to tie up their hair like that? Since they never cut it, it must take half a day just to wash and dry it and braid it or however they do it.

I would think easily half day. And they do the children's hair too! Wonder if they have a salon on the premises?

[Pepper]

Under normal circumstances, a mother isn't allowed to go with the child. CPS removes the child while they do their investigation. In this particular situation, my concern is that the mothers want to be with their children so they can have an element of control, coaching the children what to say.

Initially, when the mothers were allowed to come with the children, it was learned that they were in cell phone contact with the men back at the YFZ ranch and undoubtedly being told to keep everything under control.

Exactly! I don't know how else they could sort through this mess.

[Leila]

Have they mentioned how many boys versus girls they have in custody yet? I haven't seen it yet and I would really like to know...so much that I tried to call into Nancy Grace last night to see if I could ask that question..lol

It was reported that CPS separated 27 boys from the the group that was removed from the YFZ ranch and sent them to the Cal Farley Ranch for Boys in another part of Texas. From what I understand, the Cal Farley Ranch is a place for troubled boys, but in this case, it puts the FLDS boys in a setting with boys their own ages and provides a healthy life with a lot of outdoor activities.

[winteryns]

About them crying, I do believe that is considered a sign of weakness. I think Carolyn mentioned this on Nancy Grace the other night.

I also read that they MUST be silent during childbirth!

Silent during child birth??!!?? That's right there proves that the men control everything. I can see it now...Hubby...oh honey you need to stop that yelling....me...Whack! Silent during child birth...OMG!

[SweetPea2]

Silent during child birth??!!?? That's right there proves that the men control everything. I can see it now...Hubby...oh honey you need to stop that yelling....me...Whack! Silent during child birth...OMG!

I need to find that link but at work so I'll have to look when I get home. It also stated there were no pain meds given during childbirth and they were to be silent as well. No way in hell I could do that!

ETA: found the link!

Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery."
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/?GT1=38001

[mysteriew]

Originally Posted by Glow
I agree. I just hope that everyone understands EXACTLY what we are turning these children over to. As per my previous link the state of Texas is not prepared to handle this. Abuse is simply abuse. If it takes place in a home the well meaning government put you in OR it takes place in your familiar home surroundings.

As far as abuse, there is no evidence of abuse of young children at YFZ.

:banghead: OMG! How freakin' hard headed are you? :banghead::banghead:

Testimony says there IS evidence of abuse.

I have asked Glow about that but she seems to have missed my post.

As far as I have read, the case is under a gag order. Which means that no one outside of the investigation is to be told what evidence and witness statements they have or don't have.

Glow does speak with a lot of assurance on the question of what evidence is available. And she has spoken of her expertise and vested interest. Since no evidence is supposed to be released to anyone outside the investigation, I have asked Glow if she is involved in the investigation in some way?

[winteryns]

I need to find that link but at work so I'll have to look when I get home. It also stated there were no pain meds given during childbirth and they were to be silent as well. No way in hell I could do that!

ETA: found the link!

Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery."
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/?GT1=38001

Criticized for being out of control...lol...I love to see these strong in control men keep there thing...oh never mind....double standard I suppose.

[Leila]

How come during interviews they all talk the same? Like they are in a trance or something. It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen. They barely answer questions either. Every question gets answered with ''we need our children back''..Yeah really? What do you NEED them for?

Exactly! And the all the mothers refer to them as "the" children or "our" children. I've yet to see one mother personalize it saying, "I love my little boy (or girl) and want my child home with me."

[Moe]

Doesn't this article size things up, those poor children!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

[nanandjim]

I need to know why it is okay for these God fearing women and men to lie, cheat and steal? How can they rationalize this unchistianlike behavior??

[Pepper]

I have asked Glow about that but she seems to have missed my post.

As far as I have read, the case is under a gag order. Which means that no one outside of the investigation is to be told what evidence and witness statements they have or don't have.

Glow does speak with a lot of assurance on the question of what evidence is available. And she has spoken of her expertise and vested interest. Since no evidence is supposed to be released to anyone outside the investigation, I have asked Glow if she is involved in the investigation in some way?

Maybe she's that ACLU attorney I saw on Fox this morning?

[Leila]

Not sure if this was ever resolved - as I haven't had time to read the last 10 or so pages!! I couldn't get those 3 signatures to print over on this post - but the original postings are here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63273&page=34 post #832

I sent a copy to a handwriting expert - Cherokee - from another forum and here is what she had to say about those 3 signatures:

I took a look at the signatures. Yes, there is a high degree of probability they were signed by one person. It's obvious someone tried to alter the handwriting a little to make it look like three different people, but the same handwriting/personality traits came out in the signatures. In particular, the capital "J" in Jessop and Johnson is a VERY unusual exemplar that is the same in both names. Also, the capitals "S" and "M" are made with the exact same strokes although there was an attempt to slightly alter their look. There are many other similarities, too numerous to mention here.

There is a quirkiness to the handwriting that is present in all three signatures. It would be next to impossible for three different women to have the same unusual traits in their signatures. In particular, signatures are always very personal as they represent the writer's identity as they want to be seen by others.

I don't know who signed that document, but it wasn't three different women. It was signed by one woman, or man, for all three.

So I hope that is cleared up!! :)

Thanks Niner! Those are the three letters - J, M, and S, - that I noted as being the same. See my reply #857 in that same thread. :)

This is just another example of the deceit the FLDS is capable of.

[LinasK]

Doesn't this article size things up, those poor children!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

From this article: "We've got nothing to hide. We've broken no laws. "It makes me feel like a criminal."



My response::eek::eek::eek: You should feel like a criminal because you have broken laws- rape, incest, and bigamy for starters!



More from this article:Williams, who said he now lives in southern Utah, said he has three sons among the children from the YFZ Ranch in state custody in San Angelo.
Williams said that when he left the FLDS church, his wife left him and came to the YFZ Ranch.
He made it clear that despite having left the sect, he has not repudiated its beliefs.
"The heavenly father is boss, and Warren Jeffs is his representative on Earth," Williams said, referring to the leader of the sect who is now serving prison time for being an accomplice to rape.
Williams said he wants to obey the laws of the land as long they don't conflict with the laws of the church. When pressed by reporters, he said that when they do conflict, he would disobey the laws of the land and endure persecution.



My response: This is exactly why this cult must be broken up and the children never returned!

[mysteriew]

Doesn't this article size things up, those poor children!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

In the comments they are saying that the men have all left the compound and they are not showing up for the DNA testing. They are asking where all of the men have gone. They are also commenting on the fact that suddenly there aren't any/many FLDS supporters posting there.

Also, this comment concerns me

Posted by danbygrace1 on April 22, 2008 at 11:32 a.m.

Reply to this post
(Suggest removal)
Dear FLDS members.

Let me be the first to say I am truly sorry for your horrable mistreatment at the hands of these CRIMINALS. Be assured help is on the way.

[FlowerChild]

I can see what you are saying when comparing the number of underage girls who became pregnant in Texas with the number who became pregnant in the FDLS compound but there is one big difference. I would wager that the majority of the girls in Texas chose to have sex whereas the FDLS girls are assigned partners and have no real choice in the matter. Also, many of the Texas girls may be Hispanic and their culture seems to find it normal for young girls to date older men...still their choice.

In the FDLS compound there is no dating that I can see. No choosing a marriage partner.

Per the "teachings" of Warren Jeffs (in his own words on You Tube) and the "private, special book" (also shown on You Tube) Boys and girls are segregated from BIRTH. They do not play together, worship together, or live together - each "sex" has it's own areas in those in-home dorms and the boys are taken to male only dorms at puberty - while the girls remain with their "mothers". I would assume they MIGHT eat meals together and receive "instruction" from their Father at HOME at the same time until they reach puberty - after, males and females are forbidden to speak, spend time together or even be "at home" together UNLESS they are "married". Even siblings are separated by sex. There IS NO DATING OR CONTACT permitted EVER and the members do not chose their spouse(s) - the "Prophet" with advice from his 12 "Apostles" decide WHO marries who. And Marriages are often "sealed" with less than a week's notice - between TOTAL STRANGERS. And the girls are either forced into marriage or held prisoner until they submit, or excommunicated/expelled without notice at age 17.

And even adult women over 18 with children who are already "sealed" can be "resealed" to another husband if their spouse dies or is "removed/expelled" or the "Prophet" decides they need to be with another man. They are always at risk (and in fear) of losing their husband or children at the hands of the "Church" no matter if they remain 100% compliant - "sweet","pure" and "obedient". They are CHATTEL! Wives and children are changed like HATS by the men....wives getting older, had maximum children, no longer "appealing"? Then the Prophet will take a few of the ones you no longer want and give them to a younger man and "seal" you to some fresh young 14-16 year old girls. Children are passed around too, have too many BOYS and no valuable girls to barter? The Prophet will just pick out a few nice "sweet" little girls for you from elsewhere and send them to you.

It's SICK - the kids have no toys, no education, no exposure to the world outside the compound and no CHOICES. They WORK and go to church and have "training"- that is their life in the FLDS. the "Prophet" tells them what to wear, say and think from BIRTH - down to their hairstyles. And by age 5 they are robotically alike and obedient. There is NO MEDIA - no radios, newspapers, books, TV, internet, e-mail or open contact with the world outside the compound and FLDS. Letters and phone calls are strictly controlled and censored by the husband/father. Only the most "trusted" women are allowed outside the fence. Of course the kids lie - most of them are taught to lie to anyone questioning them that the woman they are with at the time is their "mother" - I would guess that many of the little ones have no concept of a single mother belonging only to them. And whatever man they live with is their "father". UGHHHHH!

It's little better than slavery in the guise of religion!

My Opinion

[Pepper]

Doesn't this article size things up, those poor children!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

I saw this David Williams being interviewed this morning, and that interview sure left me confused. He sounded just like the rest of the robots - meek voice, denouncing the raid, etc. He also defended Warren Jeffs as the Prophet and agreed with his rules, etc. So if he still believes all this stuff, then why is he EX-FLDS? The only thing I can think of is that he must have been thrown out for some reason, but not because he's not a "true believer."

Anyone else see this?

[tnajk]

Looks like they may be getting ready to move the kiddos...
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/san-angelo-coliseum-locked-down-as-buses-on/

One bus filled with children left the coliseum just before 1 p.m. Central time today, escorted by police cars and ambulances.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272825,00.html

[Leila]

Originally Posted by mysteriew
Check out the comments in the blog. They are asking for "information guerillas" talking about "resistance" and say they will provide training.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bas...lorado_cit.php



My fear is that the FLDS will respond to the latest raid by becoming a paramilitary organization. Don't forget that during the raid authorities reportedly found a cache of weapons. That is probably not their only cache. I also question whether they will attempt to organize and mount a raid of their own attempting to get the children back.

I wonder, has any media attempted to speak to Warren since the raid?

This is another good reason to break the children up into smaller groups and send them to foster homes. If the men were to try to take children back by force, the children wouldn't be in one central location.

As for Warren Jeffs - the hearing to decide if he gets a new trial begins on Thursday. I'm sure the media will try to get a statement from him regarding the YFZ.

[mysteriew]

Looks like they may be getting ready to move the kiddos...
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/san-angelo-coliseum-locked-down-as-buses-on/

One bus filled with children left the coliseum just before 1 p.m. Central time today, escorted by police cars and ambulances.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272825,00.html

Is it a coincidence that they are moving the children and at the same time, the men are absent from the compound and the FLDS is suddenly quiet on the internet at the exact same time?

[LinasK]

Is it a coincidence that they are moving the children and at the same time, the men are absent from the compound and the FLDS is suddenly quiet on the internet at the exact same time?

Maybe they were tipped that the men were planning something, like a break-in.

[SewingDeb]

I agree completely FlowerChild. It sounds a lot like the way slavery was in this country. Husbands and wives split, children sold elsewhere.

[FlowerChild]

From what the media is reporting the FLDS compound in SD has been abandoned as of today - not a single person remains. They are running - probably to other closed compounds in Canada or Mexico/South America. Their response to the USA restricting their behavior to the LAWS has sent them to friendlier (for now) countries like rats from a sinking ship.

Hilldale and Colorado City are next, I'm sure.
My Opinion

[SewingDeb]

Maybe they were tipped that the men were planning something, like a break-in.

That may very well be.

[tnajk]

FlowerChild, where are you reading that?

[LinasK]

Here's a comment I found interesting:

Regarding "Fundamental fashion" (Arizona Living, Monday):

I read with amazement your article about fashion among the women in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Who would have guessed that Warren Jeffs was also a fashion designer? If he'd have taken it one step further and added a head covering, he could have ordered burkas.

It seems like the FLDS and conservative Islam both share the same opinion of women. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0422tuelets228.html

[Leila]

Doesn't this article size things up, those poor children!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

Apparently, this is turning out the way many of us expected - the men not willing to give their DNA. I'm sure that any man who's fathered a child with an underage girl is going to avoid giving DNA, fearing it would lead to criminal charges.

There was one comment following that article I saw that I hope will be confirmed or refuted in the next day or two - here's the comment:

I heard the news reporters from San Angelo say last night that the men were all gone from the compound. So they not only won't claim their children, they also leave the women to take care of themselves, after having held them on the premises for years.

[Leila]

From this article: "We've got nothing to hide. We've broken no laws. "It makes me feel like a criminal."



My response::eek::eek::eek: You should feel like a criminal because you have broken laws- rape, incest, and bigamy for starters!



More from this article:Williams, who said he now lives in southern Utah, said he has three sons among the children from the YFZ Ranch in state custody in San Angelo.
Williams said that when he left the FLDS church, his wife left him and came to the YFZ Ranch.
He made it clear that despite having left the sect, he has not repudiated its beliefs.
"The heavenly father is boss, and Warren Jeffs is his representative on Earth," Williams said, referring to the leader of the sect who is now serving prison time for being an accomplice to rape.
Williams said he wants to obey the laws of the land as long they don't conflict with the laws of the church. When pressed by reporters, he said that when they do conflict, he would disobey the laws of the land and endure persecution.



My response: This is exactly why this cult must be broken up and the children never returned!

I agree!

I wonder if this man voluntarily left the FLDS or if he's one of those 21 men who were booted out and their wives/children given to another man? It really sounds like the latter.

[Ca-Sun]

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.We aren't talking about people living FREELY in the state of Texas who chose to get pregnant; we are talking about young girls in a controlled, abusive environment who are told they will be "spiritually" married so some old geezer can impregnate her. Glow, this is RAPE. Three, 5 or 20 - who cares about the exact number according to a state law that was changed? Rape is rape and even ONE is one too many!

[LovingTheChaos]

Does anyone have any information on what conditions the children are being kept in currently?

Do they have toys to play with? Are they attending classes? Do they get to go outside & play? I am getting concerned, as this drags on, that the kids are cared for properly. A sports arena is no place for children. I don't think that they should go back, but something needs to happen to get them into a more normalized environment soon.

ETA - I found an update from an above link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/sanangelo-coliseum-locked-down-as-buses-on/

They are shipping them out to foster homes all over TX. Every attempts wil be made to keep siblings together.

[Floh]

Does anyone have any information on what conditions the children are being kept in currently?

Do they have toys to play with? Are they attending classes? Do they get to go outside & play? I am getting concerned, as this drags on, that the kids are cared for properly. A sports arena is no place for children. I don't think that they should go back, but something needs to happen to get them into a more normalized environment soon.

They have been given toys according to links in the thread and also they have now left the sports area and have been taken elsewhere. somewhere which hasn't as yet been publicised which i imagine will be to keep them in a protected environment away from those who have damaged them pre the raid.

[LovingTheChaos]

Thanks Floh - I have another question - Were nursing mothers allowed to stay with their infants?

[Leila]

Things are becoming crystal clear now! After reading the material at the link below, I can see how this all came together.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

Warren Jeffs exerted tremendous control over FLDS members in Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT by retaining control over the homes they lived in. When the state of Utah took control of the FLDS property in these two communities and is holding it in trust, Warren Jeffs total control began to slip. Here's a quote from the above publication:

"A large portion of Colorado City people no longer follow Warren Jeffs. It was just a matter of them having their freedom, when he lost the power to kick them out of their homes if they didn’t do what he said. Then they no longer paid him allegiance."

We've read that Warren Jeffs built the YFZ ranch in Texas as his ultimate FLDS community. When it came time to decide who would go live at the Texas ranch, Warren Jeffs selected those who were the most loyal to him. Based on the above quote from the Arizona publication, it was more a matter of choosing those who were STILL loyal to him.

Warren Jeffs put those loyal followers in a compound in Texas, surrounded by fencing and guards at the entrance. The land, homes, and all within that compound is owned by the FLDS, achieving what they could no longer achieve in Colorado City and Hilsdale, with the state of Utah maintaining control of the property in those two communities.

The YFZ ranch in Texas represents Warren Jeffs total control of the people who live there.

If it's true that the men from the YFZ ranch are not showing up for DNA testing, and if it's also true that many of the men have left the YFZ ranch, I think it's a safe bet they wouldn't go back to Colorado City or Hildale where they don't have a strong base of support. They're more likely to have gone to a safe house of some sort, perhaps over the border into Mexico where they reportedly have a FLDS community.

If this turns out to be accurate, then it's safe to assume that even though many of the men have left, a few men remain to run the ranch and care for the livestock. But, I'm sure there's cell phone contact and the leadership is still in charge.

Speaking of leadership...........Merrill Jessop is the leader of the YFZ ranch. Yet, he's never shown his face let alone having made a statement on behalf of the community. I bet he was one of the first to leave.

[Leila]

Does anyone have any information on what conditions the children are being kept in currently?

Do they have toys to play with? Are they attending classes? Do they get to go outside & play? I am getting concerned, as this drags on, that the kids are cared for properly. A sports arena is no place for children. I don't think that they should go back, but something needs to happen to get them into a more normalized environment soon.

ETA - I found an update from an above link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/sanangelo-coliseum-locked-down-as-buses-on/

They are shipping them out to foster homes all over TX. Every attempts wil be made to keep siblings together.

It was reported early on that people from all over the state of Texas were sending toys and needed items. The women from several San Angelo churches got together in long all-day sessions to make individual quilts for each child. It was reported that their goal was to complete the project within 10 days, and that was reported shortly after the children were brought to San Angelo.

[SuziQ]

Here is a link to info on the South Dakota compound. Photo gallery at the very bottom:

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html

[Moe]

It would not surprise me one bit if the COWARDS, oh I mean the men ran away. Did the woman go too, and why is no one on this story?

[SuziQ]

Apparently, this is turning out the way many of us expected - the men not willing to give their DNA. I'm sure that any man who's fathered a child with an underage girl is going to avoid giving DNA, fearing it would lead to criminal charges.

There was one comment following that article I saw that I hope will be confirmed or refuted in the next day or two - here's the comment:

I heard the news reporters from San Angelo say last night that the men were all gone from the compound. So they not only won't claim their children, they also leave the women to take care of themselves, after having held them on the premises for years.

Much to the embarassment of the Utah AG, about 80? Kingston men fled when ordered to take DNA tests.

[SuziQ]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/22/dna-sampling-of-ranch-parents-starts-in-eldorado/

Only a few people from the YFZ Ranch had appeared for DNA testing by 10:30 a.m. at the collection point near the Schleicher County Courthouse.
Three men who appeared to be polygamist sect members entered the sampling area at 10:15 a.m. One left at 10:30 and denied all interview requests, so there was no way to immediately verify whether he in fact submitted to the DNA sampling.

[SuziQ]

According to this article, only a handfull of men and about a dozen women submitted to testing today.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA042208.polygamistsdnatest.en.8c278418.html

[LovingTheChaos]

According to this article, only a handfull of men and about a dozen women submitted to testing today.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA042208.polygamistsdnatest.en.8c278418.html


I can't even imagine this - come he!! or high water, I would be doing whatever it took to get my kids back. Maybe they are going to write the children off as being 'tainted' by the outside world. They hold no value to them if they are inspired by ideas outside of the compound...

[SewingDeb]

I can't even imagine this - come he!! or high water, I would be doing whatever it took to get my kids back. Maybe they are going to write the children off as being 'tainted' by the outside world. They hold no value to them if they are inspired by ideas outside of the compound...

That is horrifying to think of them no longer valuing the children since they have been tainted by outside influences, but maybe it is in the best interest of the children.

[Native New Yorker]

Thanks Floh - I have another question - Were nursing mothers allowed to stay with their infants?
What nursing mothers? Do you mean wet nursing mothers? They passed the babies around, so no one would get attached to "their baby". Not the same as when I nursed my girls...this was community living....

I am glad to see this thread moving on to real issues, and AWAY from the last two weeks of circular arguments which have gone nowhere.....maybe that is why we could not get a separate forum?

I hope we can continue to focus on the lives of a victimized population of women and children, and stop splitting hairs over what constitutes rape and pedophilia. We can leave that to the FLDS defense lawyers, though I would not mind one thread on a forum being for that topic. In the meantime, though, let's please focus on the victims.....

[cheko1]

What yellow belly chicken chits!!!!!
I just knew nobody would show up for the DNA tests or else the young guys who have worked & paid there dues for a young wife & only has one wife would show up.

The old geezers could care less about the kids. Same way with the women....they all put on such a fake phoney act. SHAME ON THEM ALL!

[Texana]

What nursing mothers? Do you mean wet nursing mothers? They passed the babies around, so no one would get attached to "their baby". Not the same as when I nursed my girls...this was community living....

I am glad to see this thread moving on to real issues, and AWAY from the last two weeks of circular arguments which have gone nowhere.....maybe that is why we could not get a separate forum?

I hope we can continue to focus on the lives of a victimized population of women and children, and stop splitting hairs over what constitutes rape and pedophilia. We can leave that to the FLDS defense lawyers, though I would not mind one thread on a forum being for that topic. In the meantime, though, let's please focus on the victims.....

Well said. :)

[cheko1]

Has anyone heard anything about where they all went?
Am sure they're all scared to death after reading how accurate DNA testing is. :furious: :furious:

[Leila]

What nursing mothers? Do you mean wet nursing mothers? They passed the babies around, so no one would get attached to "their baby". Not the same as when I nursed my girls...this was community living....

I am glad to see this thread moving on to real issues, and AWAY from the last two weeks of circular arguments which have gone nowhere.....maybe that is why we could not get a separate forum?

I hope we can continue to focus on the lives of a victimized population of women and children, and stop splitting hairs over what constitutes rape and pedophilia. We can leave that to the FLDS defense lawyers, though I would not mind one thread on a forum being for that topic. In the meantime, though, let's please focus on the victims.....

Well stated Native New Yorker........the focus should be on the real issues of what's happening with this case.

It would appear, by the lack of cooperation of the FLDS men and women, that their concern over exposure of their cult is paramount to their desire to get their children back.

Didn't we hear those women who were interviewed at the ranch state that they would do whatever it took to get their children back? Yet, require them to take a DNA test or identify themselves and they won't do even that.

[Leila]

Has anyone heard anything about where they all went?
Am sure they're all scared to death after reading how accurate DNA testing is. :furious: :furious:

After reading that publication from Arizona (see my post above on this page), I doubt the men would return to Colorado City or Hildale. They don't have a strong base of support there. My best guess is an unknown safe house type of place or, over the border into Mexico where they reportedly have an FLDS community.

I bet any men left at the FLDS ranch are young men with one wife, or young men who are single.

There was a comment on the San Angelo news site that the members of the FLDS compound in S.D. have left that compound too.

[cheko1]

Well stated Native New Yorker........the focus should be on the real issues of what's happening with this case.

It would appear, by the lack of cooperation of the FLDS men and women, that their concern over exposure of their cult is paramount to their desire to get their children back.

Didn't we hear those women who were interviewed at the ranch state that they would do whatever it took to get their children back? Yet, require them to take a DNA test or identify themselves and they won't do even that.


Leila,
Words are cheap & they're liars to boot.

I wonder if any of them honestly know who they are? Do they really know there age? Do they know whose kids are who?

Something is terribly wrong with this picture. I hope LE sent plenty of guards with the buses to make sure the kids are safe......I'd put nothing past the FLDS........NOTHING!!!!

[cheko1]

After reading that publication from Arizona (see my post above on this page), I doubt the men would return to Colorado City or Hildale. They don't have a strong base of support there. My best guess is an unknown safe house type of place or, over the border into Mexico where they reportedly have an FLDS community.

I bet any men left at the FLDS ranch are young men with one wife, or young men who are single.

There was a comment on the San Angelo news site that the members of the FLDS compound in S.D. have left that compound too.

Yes I read that about the FLDS compound in S.D. thats why I hope plenty of LE is following the buses. They've had 2 wks now to make plans & it could be BAD! Maybe I watch to much TV. Just very odd to me.

[PolkSaladAnnie]

BRAVO, Cheko1 !!! :clap:

Every passionate and frustrated/knowing word you wrote ... echoes hugely within me!

AGREED!!!

Polk ...

What yellow belly chicken chits!!!!!
I just knew nobody would show up for the DNA tests or else the young guys who have worked & paid there dues for a young wife & only has one wife would show up.

The old geezers could care less about the kids. Same way with the women....they all put on such a fake phoney act. SHAME ON THEM ALL!

[SewingDeb]

Scary thought!

[Leila]

Leila,
Words are cheap & they're liars to boot.

I wonder if any of them honestly know who they are? Do they really know there age? Do they know whose kids are who?

Something is terribly wrong with this picture. I hope LE sent plenty of guards with the buses to make sure the kids are safe......I'd put nothing past the FLDS........NOTHING!!!!

Cheko...............I'd love to see the media get back into the YFZ ranch and this time ask the hard questions..........
1. Why are you refusing to identify yourselves and your children?
2. If you really want your children back, why won't you cooperate with the authorities?
3. Marilyn.........you gave a tour of your home. Where are the children's toys?
4. Where are the children's fathers? Don't they care about the children? Why won't they talk to anyone?

I bet those of us here at WS could come up with some good questions! :)

[Leila]

Yes I read that about the FLDS compound in S.D. thats why I hope plenty of LE is following the buses. They've had 2 wks now to make plans & it could be BAD! Maybe I watch to much TV. Just very odd to me.

Yes.........it is VERY strange. The busses that left San Angelo with the children were accompanied by LE and ambulances. I thought the ambulances was a strange addition to the entourage, unless they've got pregnant girls who are close to giving birth.

There were reports that the destinations of the busses was wide-ranging - going to many different cities in the state of Texas - can't remember all of them, but Austin, Amarillo, and Houston were on the list along with several more. I like the idea of spreading the children out across the state - not in one central location. I think it's safer that way.

[cheko1]

Yes.........it is VERY strange. The busses that left San Angelo with the children were accompanied by LE and ambulances. I thought the ambulances was a strange addition to the entourage, unless they've got pregnant girls who are close to giving birth.

There were reports that the destinations of the busses was wide-ranging - going to many different cities in the state of Texas - can't remember all of them, but Austin, Amarillo, and Houston were on the list along with several more. I like the idea of spreading the children out across the state - not in one central location. I think it's safer that way.


I agree about keeping the kids in more than one place too.

I thought I'd read about LE & the ambulances following the buses. Thing is LE could be over taken by the FLDS if there was enough of them. Since S.D. is empty they could of merged for a severe range war. I just don't trust them.....

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Hi all

HEADS UP

Just seen "live briefing" right now on CNN re polygamist issue ... not sure about other TV stations...

Polk

[Moe]

No news about the people leaving, I'm hoping Nancy is all over this. With the big primary tonight she is our only hope this evening.

[tnajk]

They've only moved 100 children so far. http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/22/polygamy.testing/index.html

I think we need to be careful jumping the gun on believing the men have left the compound. Also that there have only been a handful of parents to step forward to do the DNA testing. We just don't know yet. Don't believe everything you hear. Especially when it's so early in the game. I'm sure Media will be all over it if either prove to be true.

[Moe]

I hope your right! I pray you are right, those kids deserve better.

[Ladybass0711]

Last I heard Admins were looking to create a private forum for this topic.

[Glow]

Originally Posted by Glow
I agree. I just hope that everyone understands EXACTLY what we are turning these children over to. As per my previous link the state of Texas is not prepared to handle this. Abuse is simply abuse. If it takes place in a home the well meaning government put you in OR it takes place in your familiar home surroundings.

As far as abuse, there is no evidence of abuse of young children at YFZ.



I have asked Glow about that but she seems to have missed my post.

As far as I have read, the case is under a gag order. Which means that no one outside of the investigation is to be told what evidence and witness statements they have or don't have.

Glow does speak with a lot of assurance on the question of what evidence is available. And she has spoken of her expertise and vested interest. Since no evidence is supposed to be released to anyone outside the investigation, I have asked Glow if she is involved in the investigation in some way?

Mysteri, I think everyone here speaks with a lot of assurance, don't you? We all have been able to read the same things. The link I read is the one in the San Angelo paper. When Angie Voss was asked

Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?

she replied "Yes"

she also said

"There were some suspected broken bones"


If we break this down logically, her answers are interesting. The first question asks about serious injury OR death. She answers "yes" There has been absolutely no one who has come forward saying there have been any deaths. So that leaves us with the other part of the question. As to her answer about "serious injury", if Angie Voss feels she is looking at evidence of child rape then she can logically answer that question yes. Which she did.

Her only requirement under law is that she has to have reason to suspect. Not proof....just a "reason". That reason could be a lot of things. It could be the blond hair found on the bed in the temple area. It could be a pregnant girl she saw in the compound. It could be practically anything. The only point is she HAD to say something made her decide to move the children and that is what she did. Her careful wording was evident once again when she was asked if any of the children had broken bones, injuries or malnutrition that showed up in medical examinations.

We know that when Dr's at Fort Concho examined the children they said the children were healthy, Dr. Smith in fact went so far as to say they were exceptionally healthy they had no injuries or malnutrition so she could not say yes to that part of the question so she answers "There were some suspected broken bones."

That was a good political answer. I could suspect my next door neighbor is from Mars but that has absolutely no validity and neither does her answer. As a matter of fact everything everyone BUT her has said about the children is exactly the opposite. Later when she is asked what the danger is to having the younger children returned she doesn't mention the "serious abuse" OR the "suspected" broken bones. Instead she says her concern is "a global pattern that underage marriage and children having children is permitted."

So she never does come right out and say there was ANY witnessed abuse of the younger children in any way. She is concerned about "future" abuse. That's it.

In any "juicy" trial or hearing there are ALWAYS leaks. That is just life. If there was any physical abuse noted with the young children we would have heard rumors flying like mad and we haven't. Instead we have been told by medical experts (which Ms Voss is not) that they are instead, exceptionally healthy. That is why I said above that there is no abuse of the young children at YFZ.

[SewingDeb]

From Tnajk's link:

The initial count was rushed, they said, and they have discovered that some females were not 18 or older, as they claimed. Those young women are now being counted as minors.

[FlowerChild]

I cannot find the original article but reading in the comments following THIS article
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/04/19/news/top/doc48095d0a7405a514684976.txt the "locals" are saying the women and children went 1st and (by the 18th) and from the little blurb I read at the end of another article it said there was NO-ONE at the SD compound today (4-22) - not even the "head guy" who was the one the authorities and neighbors had contact with. According to the little blurb I read ALL the known FLDS compounds in the USA are being systematically emptied/evacuated. I DO remember in one of the YouTube videos the documentary film makes TOOK an ex-member down into Mexico to get some of her belongings that were with her daughter and THAT compound was like 15 miles from even a rough DIRT road in the middle of NOWHERE in Mexico - somewhere South of the AZ border.

They are RUNNING - men women and children...poof, gone..overnight. THIS is why the CPS in Texas HAD to remove the children and keep them under their strict supervision. These supposedly honest, hard working, very religious and upstanding people who have nothing to hide are afraid to face any scrutiny by US or State Authorities in ANY way. If they are so innocent - then WHY would ALL the members across the USA find it necessary to disappear in the night? There have been NO allegations about anyone at any other compound - if forced marriage and impregnating 14 year old girls and abusing children and infants wasn't common practice then WHY RUN?

They keep saying they have done nothing wrong and their life and parenting are exemplary and perfect and wholesome and moral and they just want to prove it and get their kids back. If that is the case ...where ARE THEY??? The kids, the women and now the men...ALL GONE - like they never existed. It is being reported that like 5 men remain at the YFZ Ranch to care for livestock and everyone else is GONE. Where are all those "weeping" mothers from YFZ today? 3 Men showed up for DNA - 3 MEN! That's all - and reports are that all the woman are not at YFZ either.

I said early on that if the heat didn't let up on these "perfect" loving parents and they got a chance to get away they would disappear and abandon their now "ruined by the infidels" children to the state of Texas. And so, it appears that they have. Like I said earlier, what MOTHER joyfully and willingly escorts her 14 year old daughter to a marriage bed with a man her daughter has never met and who is probably a MINIUMUM of 30 years her senior? And I say now, what MOTHER OR FATHER abandons their child/children to the state and LEAVES without a word? Wanna wager that they "Prophet" sent them to Mexico and they are even now preparing to start new families there, where the US cannot reach them or extradite them to face charges here without a fight.

Any parent who can hand off their child in marriage to a stranger or just send them to another compound to another mother and father - just hand them over to another family without question is IMO, perfectly prepared to abandon their now "ruined" children to the "beast" and go off to another place, another compound and begin again and never look back. And I think THAT is what they will do - those "mothers" are MORE concerned with obeying their "prophet" and their husband and remaining obedient and "sweet" and compliant than they are with their children. I still believe to these people children are considered like livestock or a possession - it's just a loss, like losing a herd or cattle to a storm or something - they just keep moving forward and never look back - those kids are just "things" to them and now they are more trouble than they are worth so they'll just cut their losses and start over elsewhere. When it comes to choosing between religion and it's tenets and a living CHILD they prefer to abandon the CHILD/CHILDREN before betraying (as they see it) their husband and their "Prophet".

Tell me again how these ADULTS are not brainwashed and this is not a cult? Only those who fear the TRUTH and the REALITY more than they fear their leaders would leave a CHILD behind - and THAT is the very definition of brainwashed. It's sad for the children BUT I cannot help but feel they will survive and even THRIVE and have been mercifully spared and escaped a living hell with the FLDS CULT. They say that the children are closest to God and I think He is watching over these kids in a very special way - and I HOPE thru these kids, He will see that MORE will be rescued.

My Opinion

[Ladybass0711]

Mysteri, I think everyone here speaks with a lot of assurance, don't you? We all have been able to read the same things. The link I read is the one in the San Angelo paper. When Angie Voss was asked

Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?

she replied "Yes"

she also said

"There were some suspected broken bones"


If we break this down logically, her answers are interesting. The first question asks about serious injury OR death. She answers "yes" There has been absolutely no one who has come forward saying there have been any deaths. So that leaves us with the other part of the question. As to her answer about "serious injury", if Angie Voss feels she is looking at evidence of child rape then she can logically answer that question yes. Which she did.

Her only requirement under law is that she has to have reason to suspect. Not proof....just a "reason". That reason could be a lot of things. It could be the blond hair found on the bed in the temple area. It could be a pregnant girl she saw in the compound. It could be practically anything. The only point is she HAD to say something made her decide to move the children and that is what she did. Her careful wording was evident once again when she was asked if any of the children had broken bones, injuries or malnutrition that showed up in medical examinations.

We know that when Dr's at Fort Concho examined the children they said the children were healthy, Dr. Smith in fact went so far as to say they were exceptionally healthy they had no injuries or malnutrition so she could not say yes to that part of the question so she answers "There were some suspected broken bones."

That was a good political answer. I could suspect my next door neighbor is from Mars but that has absolutely no validity and neither does her answer. As a matter of fact everything everyone BUT her has said about the children is exactly the opposite. Later when she is asked what the danger is to having the younger children returned she doesn't mention the "serious abuse" OR the "suspected" broken bones. Instead she says her concern is "a global pattern that underage marriage and children having children is permitted."

So she never does come right out and say there was ANY witnessed abuse of the younger children in any way. She is concerned about "future" abuse. That's it.

In any "juicy" trial or hearing there are ALWAYS leaks. That is just life. If there was any physical abuse noted with the young children we would have heard rumors flying like mad and we haven't. Instead we have been told by medical experts (which Ms Voss is not) that they are instead, exceptionally healthy. That is why I said above that there is no abuse of the young children at YFZ.


And your point is?! I tell you what, I am geting really tired at how you defend these people.

[Moe]

Same here, I just don't get it.

[SewingDeb]

Angie Voss also testified that there was at least one underage mother in each of the 20 households. To me that means every child on the ranch was living in a home where a young girl was raped.

[cheko1]

[quote=Leila;2155993]Cheko...............I'd love to see the media get back into the YFZ ranch and this time ask the hard questions..........
1. Why are you refusing to identify yourselves and your children?
2. If you really want your children back, why won't you cooperate with the authorities?
3. Marilyn.........you gave a tour of your home. Where are the children's toys?
4. Where are the children's fathers? Don't they care about the children? Why won't they talk to anyone?

I bet those of us here at WS could come up with some good questions! :)
quote]

Yes Leila it would be mighty interesting.

I think they should be made to answer many of the questions. Guess we'll just have to wait until they go to trial. If they haven't headed for the hills & still in hiding that is!

[cheko1]

Mysteri, I think everyone here speaks with a lot of assurance, don't you? We all have been able to read the same things. The link I read is the one in the San Angelo paper. When Angie Voss was asked

Can you identify any households in which a child was caused serious injury or death?

she replied "Yes"

she also said

"There were some suspected broken bones"


If we break this down logically, her answers are interesting. The first question asks about serious injury OR death. She answers "yes" There has been absolutely no one who has come forward saying there have been any deaths. So that leaves us with the other part of the question. As to her answer about "serious injury", if Angie Voss feels she is looking at evidence of child rape then she can logically answer that question yes. Which she did.

Her only requirement under law is that she has to have reason to suspect. Not proof....just a "reason". That reason could be a lot of things. It could be the blond hair found on the bed in the temple area. It could be a pregnant girl she saw in the compound. It could be practically anything. The only point is she HAD to say something made her decide to move the children and that is what she did. Her careful wording was evident once again when she was asked if any of the children had broken bones, injuries or malnutrition that showed up in medical examinations.

We know that when Dr's at Fort Concho examined the children they said the children were healthy, Dr. Smith in fact went so far as to say they were exceptionally healthy they had no injuries or malnutrition so she could not say yes to that part of the question so she answers "There were some suspected broken bones."

That was a good political answer. I could suspect my next door neighbor is from Mars but that has absolutely no validity and neither does her answer. As a matter of fact everything e