Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[Ladybass0711]

Starting fresh here for Friday. Less confusing I think. Continuing on from here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63463)

[SuziQ]

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=c7ea64a0-da1b-4f62-a73f-cd5d024922f8

(snip)
Back in the late 90s, Sterling Harker made it known that he was opposed to marriages between underage girls and older men. He says that put him on Warren Jeffs' "blacklist." Jeffs would eventually take away his two wives and children and kick him out of the FLDS sect. "He just cuts people off," Sterling said. "No remorse, No consideration. Ruthless."

But with the state of Texas now in control, Sterling has at least a faint hope that he can get custody of his two youngest daughters, LaDonna, 13, and Shauna, 11. The child welfare system in Texas favors relatives over foster care as long as the children are kept from the abusive environment. Sterling still lives among the FLDS, but he no longer is a member of the sect. "All I can say is that I'm the biological father. I love my family. I have always loved them."

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=3108410&nid=148


Police in Colorado Springs, Colo., have arrested a woman for allegedly making false reports to authorities. Those reports may be linked to the raid of an FLDS compound in Texas.
Texas rangers were on hand in Colorado as part of the FLDS investigation when Rozita Swinton was arrested, though Colorado authorities aren't giving further explanation. However, well-known anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop claims she led authorities to Swinton after receiving several calls from her in the last two weeks.
"She was claiming that her sister, Sarah, was the one who made the original call in Texas, that her baby had been taken away from her, and that she was afraid to come forward and talk because she'd been threatened," Jessop said. Jessop believes Swinton was the one who called Texas authorities, prompting the raid of the FLDS ranch. Swinton was not arrested by Texas authorities, so her connection to the case is unknown.

[SuziQ]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...12/detail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15917112/detail.html)

(snip)
Call7 Investigators reported this is not be the first time Swinton has been arrested on charges of making false reports to authorities. The Colorado Springs charge against Swinton was made in connection to calls received by police in February indicating she was 13 years old and trapped in a basement.

Local police said Swinton had been under investigation for some time on that accusation, but police made an immediate arrest after the Texas Rangers became involved, according to ABC News.

[BarnGoddess]

To Mysteryview, from your question in the last thread.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3076545

Crawford, Colorado. Here is the neighbor and the fence blocking his view.

[SuziQ]

This call from June sounds eerily similar to Sarah's call. She called one day and called the second day saying she changed her mind.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8969094?source=rv

On June 23, 2005, Castle Rock police arrested her on a misdemeanor charge of false reporting, according to CBI records. Det. Sgt. Scott Claton said an adoption agency called June 21, 2005, saying a woman identifying herself as Jessica called saying she was considering giving up her baby to adoption.
She later left a letter on the agency's door saying she changed her mind and was considering leaving the infant at a fire station and
committing suicide.

[Ladybass0711]

Regardless if this video is true, This still will not do anything to the case. Because, when they went in originally they were looking for a sarah. They had the search warrnet and acted in good faith, to look for sarah and anything that pertained to her. When they found that the other children were being abused, they went and got another search warrent. The authorites went in under "valid suspicion" or "Just cause" They went in originally "in good faith" which means that they did not go in to delbritly harrass these people.. How were they to know that if in fact this story is true, that it was a hoax? How were they to know that???? CPS has a duty to investigate ALL claims of abuse, and thats what they were doing. So this "new development" will not affect the case one bit. Because there was bause going on, therefore the warrents still Stand.

Also how would this woman know that there was a Sarah on the property?? That she had an 8 month old??? And that she was preganant again??? That her husband was Dale barlow???To me it seems to be pretty far fetched to believe that she is connected to the phone call. There is just to much that was confirmed, that the 16 year old did tell them???

[SuziQ]

ITA, It won't have an affect on what was discovered at the ranch. When CPS receives a complaint, they have to investigate whether the complaint is a hoax or not. What CPS found after investigating the complaint is the only issue in court now. The only thing I see a hoax call causing is the FLDS trying to use this in their favor. Their argument will be fruitless IMO.

[Ladybass0711]

ITA, It won't have an affect on what was discovered at the ranch. When CPS receives a complaint, they have to investigate whether the complaint is a hoax or not. What CPS found after investigating the complaint is the only issue in court now. The only thing I see a hoax call causing is the FLDS trying to use this in their favor. Their argument will be fruitless IMO.


Yep I agree!

[LovingTheChaos]

If it does turn out to be this person who made the call, I wonder what her connection to the FLDS is. Maybe she met some of the followers & found out what they were doing to their children. It will be interesting to see what her background is. Now, I know this is a stretch, based on the limited information we have so far. Could she have done this in an attempt to get authorities to investigate abuse she suspected was going on? If that is the case, I can't magine how frustrating it may have been to watch Utah & Colorado sit on their hands & do nothing to protect those children.

After hearing about the baby 'waterboarding', all I can say is Thank GOD TX moved on this call. Fake or not, whoever called is a hero to those kids.

[Ladybass0711]

Updates on the Court hearing are located here. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63558&page=10) Please keep that thread to COURT PROCEEDINGS only, and this thread to anything else that is not court related.

Thank you.

[cheko1]

I'm certain I heard that Merrill Jessop gave the word for people to co-operate with the authorities & the young girls stated that there had been a girl whose name was Sarah. None of them knew where she was at now.

I'm certain many stories will be hitting the airwaves as huge as this is. Like other major News you never know what to believe or what not to. In the beginning stages.

[Leila]

I'm bringing this link over from the previous thread. It's the newspaper article about Rozita Swinton. Rozita appears to be black, and knowing that Warren Jeffs is extremely racist, I doubt she was ever a member of the FLDS.

When Sarah called the help line in Texas, she named Dale Barlow, and I'm wondering how Rozita would have known that name? Here's the picture of Rozita Swinton that accompanied the article.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/mrspeavey/080417101311_4-17-08-Rozita-Swinton.jpg

Link to article:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=90138

[SuziQ]

Oh definitely she was never part of FLDS. I don't think the authorities believe that either. There is enough info out there regarding the FLDS sect to be able to pull off a hoax. However, my feeling is Rozita inserted herself into the case after it broke in the news.

ETA: So is there a 16 year old pregnant girl with broken ribs that needs to be found? Probably. However, this shows that if she exists no one has heard from her since the last call to the DV hotline in TX. That's a long time. What's happened to her?

[mollymalone]

I'm certain I heard that Merrill Jessop gave the word for people to co-operate with the authorities & the young girls stated that there had been a girl whose name was Sarah. None of them knew where she was at now.

I'm certain many stories will be hitting the airwaves as huge as this is. Like other major News you never know what to believe or what not to. In the beginning stages.What happened was that the women were not cooperating with CPS in putting the children on the buses and Merrill Jessop was asked to assist and he used a bullhorn to tell the women to cooperate and they instantly stopped resisting. That doesn't mean they're being told to cooperate with the authorities in any other matter.

[mollymalone]

Oh definitely she was never part of FLDS. I don't think the authorities believe that either. There is enough info out there regarding the FLDS sect to be able to pull off a hoax. However, my feeling is Rozita inserted herself into the case after it broke in the news.

ETA: So is there a 16 year old pregnant girl with broken ribs that needs to be found? Probably. However, this shows that if she exists no one has heard from her since the last call to the DV hotline in TX. That's a long time. What's happened to her?The CPS person who was testifying yesterday said they had children with broken bones. Sarah could be one of them.

[SuziQ]

The CPS person who was testifying yesterday said they had children with broken bones. Sarah could be one of them.

I hope Sarah is with CPS and safe. Because that looney toon from Co. wasted alot of resources from LE trying to track the calls down.

[mysteriew]

The CPS person who was testifying yesterday said they had children with broken bones. Sarah could be one of them.

Why can the judge not order a search warrant for the girl they suspect is Sarah and have her hospital records searched?

Also, much has been made over the fact that the girl said she went to the hospital around Easter and that is terminology that the FLDS doesn't use and they don't celebrate holidays. I know that many ER's will decorate for holidays and I wonder if perhaps that is how Sarah knew it was near Easter?

[Floh]

I was thinking of starting a Links Only thread so people don't need to search through all threads for links. what do people think?

i thought something like the following (with an example of some — in this case — photographic links). there are so many links i couldn't start to find after so many days:

Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas — LINKS ONLY, no discussion.

Excellent photographs of the compound and the compound's people from Trent Nelson.

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2258

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2259

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2262

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2263

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2266

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2250

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2251

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2252

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2274

[LinasK]

What happened to the idea of having a whole separate forum for all of these different threads on the FLDS topic? Has anyone approached a moderator about forming one???:confused:

[Ladybass0711]

What happened to the idea of having a whole separate from for all of these different threads on the FLDS topic? Has anyone approached a moderator about forming one???:confused:

They are working on it. Mods have already been approached on it.

[Ladybass0711]

I was thinking of starting a Links Only thread so people don't need to search through all threads for links. what do people think?

i thought something like the following (with an example of some — in this case — photographic links). there are so many links i couldn't start to find after so many days:

Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas — LINKS ONLY, no discussion.

Excellent photographs of the compound and the compound's people from Trent Nelson.

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2258

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2259

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2262

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2263

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2266

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2250

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2251

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2252

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2254

http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2274

Sounds good to me!

[Leila]

Oh definitely she was never part of FLDS. I don't think the authorities believe that either. There is enough info out there regarding the FLDS sect to be able to pull off a hoax. However, my feeling is Rozita inserted herself into the case after it broke in the news.

ETA: So is there a 16 year old pregnant girl with broken ribs that needs to be found? Probably. However, this shows that if she exists no one has heard from her since the last call to the DV hotline in TX. That's a long time. What's happened to her?

Suzy............I agree and it's sad to think that someone, Rozita, inserted themselves into the case and interfered with the police search for Sarah.

I have two trains of thought........one, that Sarah is among th 419 children removed from the YFZ ranch; or she was taken away from the YFZ ranch and hidden somewhere in another FLDS community.

I'm hoping Sarah is among the children removed from the YFZ and has been too frightened to come forward. Between her last call on March 30th and the sheriff going into the ranch on April 3rd, she could have been threatened with all sorts of things to insure her silence.

[Leila]

Why can the judge not order a search warrant for the girl they suspect is Sarah and have her hospital records searched?

Also, much has been made over the fact that the girl said she went to the hospital around Easter and that is terminology that the FLDS doesn't use and they don't celebrate holidays. I know that many ER's will decorate for holidays and I wonder if perhaps that is how Sarah knew it was near Easter?

Also, the call wasn't recorded, so it's not known for sure if Sarah used the term, Easter, or if the social worker taking the call used the word for a point of reference. I can see someone giving a date - March 22 or 23, and a social worker glancing at her desk calendar and writing down "Easter weekend" as their own reference point.

[Leila]

What happened to the idea of having a whole separate forum for all of these different threads on the FLDS topic? Has anyone approached a moderator about forming one???:confused:

I think we really need a forum for this case. It's not going to be resolved any time soon, and I believe Warren Jeffs trial in Arizona begins next week - on April 25th. That trial is another component of this whole issue.

[Floh]

Thread for links in this story. please add a link which you think would be useful. the idea is to keep all links together in one place:

Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas — LINKS ONLY. No discussion.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2146620&posted=1#post2146620

[mollymalone]

I think we really need a forum for this case. It's not going to be resolved any time soon, and I believe Warren Jeffs trial in Arizona begins next week - on April 25th. That trial is another component of this whole issue.That's right and regardless of any charges he's facing or that he'll be behind bars for a long time, the members of this group are visiting him and attending court sessions.

[philamena]

Response to Glowbug from the last page of part 3, of the previous thread.


The hard truth is 500 years ago people DID marry their daughters off, many times to men old enough to afford them. While that is regretable and goes against all that I wish for women, it is reality

Sorry hon but 500 years ago has nothing to do with the freakin present and what is happening in tat compound.

[LinasK]

Sorry hon but 500 years ago has nothing to do with the freakin present and what is happening in tat compound.

Exactly! And 500 years ago they didn't live very long.

[mollymalone]

Exactly! And 500 years ago they didn't live very long.Yes and during that timeframe if a child was betrothed to a man, usually the child stayed with its family until they were of age to have the marriage occur and be consumated. Not in all cases, but the majority. What occurred in history past during those times certainly has no bearing on whether a child today is spanked, dunked in water to make it fears its father, or an underage girl being told she's going to have no choice in who she marries or when she's going to be sexually violated, whether that's by her own kin or someone else.

[biggirl]

Hi all, I have a question. Did I imagine it or did I hear that Jeffs had what is basically a crematorium installed on the compound for use when they do that ""blood" thing punishment (basically murder) and then DNA cannot be detected. If so, and worse case scenario, who is to say that they may have done away with someone that they perceived was talking to authorities?? I tell you. after reading the testimony of the CPS worker that was one of the first at the compound, and how threatened she felt with the "male" presence. I can just imagine how threatened these guys must have felt.

JMHO but I feel they would go to any lengths to keep their sicko world intact.:waitasec:

[Linda7NJ]

Hi all, I have a question. Did I imagine it or did I hear that Jeffs had what is basically a crematorium installed on the compound for use when they do that ""blood" thing punishment (basically murder) and then DNA cannot be detected. If so, and worse case scenario, who is to say that they may have done away with someone that they perceived was talking to authorities?? I tell you. after reading the testimony of the CPS worker that was one of the first at the compound, and how threatened she felt with the "male" presence. I can just imagine how threatened these guys must have felt.

JMHO but I feel they would go to any lengths to keep their sicko world intact.:waitasec:


I read that...it's a very scary thing to ponder...my head is swimming with the sexual abuse...can't even go there:chicken:

[mollymalone]

Hi all, I have a question. Did I imagine it or did I hear that Jeffs had what is basically a crematorium installed on the compound for use when they do that ""blood" thing punishment (basically murder) and then DNA cannot be detected. If so, and worse case scenario, who is to say that they may have done away with someone that they perceived was talking to authorities?? I tell you. after reading the testimony of the CPS worker that was one of the first at the compound, and how threatened she felt with the "male" presence. I can just imagine how threatened these guys must have felt.

JMHO but I feel they would go to any lengths to keep their sicko world intact.:waitasec:It was a high heat furnace for an industry on the compound, but according to the former member who said this, there was no need for that high a heat to process whatever it was, and Jeffs had been preaching blood atonement.

[mollymalone]

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/courthouse-site-of-much-drama-in-flds-case/

Drama at the courthouse - and not in the courtroom.

"It's all a coverup," a woman shouted Thursday while walking by the Tom Green County jail."

[BarnGoddess]

Hi all, I have a question. Did I imagine it or did I hear that Jeffs had what is basically a crematorium installed on the compound for use when they do that ""blood" thing punishment (basically murder) and then DNA cannot be detected. If so, and worse case scenario, who is to say that they may have done away with someone that they perceived was talking to authorities?? I tell you. after reading the testimony of the CPS worker that was one of the first at the compound, and how threatened she felt with the "male" presence. I can just imagine how threatened these guys must have felt.

JMHO but I feel they would go to any lengths to keep their sicko world intact.:waitasec:
Amazing how different this cult is from the formal LDS church. They pride themselves in genealogical research and are meticulous. An excellent source for anyone searching their family history. Not just Mormons. Can't imagine it. Destroying DNA, not knowing who's who. Mind boggling.

[SuziQ]

On the front page of CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html

Pentagon paid $1.7 million to firms of polygamy bosses

[golfmom]

Amazing how different this cult is from the formal LDS church. They pride themselves in genealogical research and are meticulous. An excellent source for anyone searching their family history. Not just Mormons. Can't imagine it. Destroying DNA, not knowing who's who. Mind boggling.

I have a hard time understanding it too. But, I suspect they keep just as careful records but keep it hidden as private church documents. It almost looks like this current generation of children are being denied even knowing the truth about their personal genealogy. :eek:

[mollymalone]

Regarding Rozita Swinton

http://www.myeldorado.net/Pages/RANGERS.html

Texas Rangers accompanied the Colorado Springs officers while they executed an evidentiary search warrant at Swinton's residence for items related to previous false reports to authorities in Colorado. During the search, officers found several items that indicated a possible connection between Swinton and calls regarding the FLDS compounds in Colorado City, Arizona, and Eldorado, Texas. These items of interest to Texas authorities were seized by the Colorado Springs Police Department and released to the Texas Rangers. These items will be evaluated and forwarded to various crime laboratories in Texas for analysis. The Texas Rangers, with the approval of local officials in Colorado, requested that the affidavit for the search warrant for Swinton's residence be sealed by an El Paso County, Colorado judge. A judge granted that motion, and the Texas Rangers will not comment further on these items.

[mollymalone]

On the front page of CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html

Pentagon paid $1.7 million to firms of polygamy bossesThat's only part of it, Nevada has paid some of the firms from the FLDS connected to this group quite a large amount of money for various projects. Some of which will have to be redone because of shoddy work. Other projects were done in a timely manner and were well done.

[biggirl]

I have another question, sorry, that is all I do is question.

How are children without birth certificates eligible for any type of welfare money?? It really really infuriates me that they have the saying "bleed the beast", basically meaning you and me and all the other tax paying citizens.

So as this draws on why isn't the government allowed to dip into their "trust" that apparently is worth millions to pay for this mess that they have created?

Oh that is 2 questions. And another thing, if welfare fraud is found, won't they have to pay restitution?

Okay that was 3 and I will stop now.:eek:

[golfmom]

LOL biggirl, I don't know the answers, but I like your questions!

[mollymalone]

I have another question, sorry, that is all I do is question.

How are children without birth certificates eligible for any type of welfare money?? It really really infuriates me that they have the saying "bleed the beast", basically meaning you and me and all the other tax paying citizens.

So as this draws on why isn't the government allowed to dip into their "trust" that apparently is worth millions to pay for this mess that they have created?

Oh that is 2 questions. And another thing, if welfare fraud is found, won't they have to pay restitution?

Okay that was 3 and I will stop now.:eek:First, the trust is in AZ, and has to do with properties that the individual people owned and turned over to the trust.

Individual companies run by specific families were awarded contracts by the states or govt. The funds from those contracts belong to those families who are in the FLDs but not necessarily in this particular group of the sect. Some of those funds were turned over to the fund, but Jeffs and his minions have spent a lot of the money on private jets, cars, high living etc. as well as building that compound and others.

These people are drawing AZ and Utah benefits primarily, there's no way of telling where else they're drawing them from without an investigation into that aspect. I have no idea how they've managed to apply for benefits without birth certificates or social sec. no's for the children, but they seem to have managed it as well as using each other's children to apply for benefits.

Edited to add: If the govt. or state(s)/ LE investigate and find there is considerable fraud or other criminal activity they could seize the compound, businesses, vehicles etc.. and auction it off.

[Ladybass0711]

Eden Texas is an hour away from San Angelo. Maybe they are gonna get them out of San Angelo??

[biggirl]

Thank you Mollymalone. I hope there is an extensive investigation into every penny that these people have been given. I do know that normally if restitution is ordered assets can be taken. I would hope that would be the case here. It appears if they have jets etc. those are assets.

Thank you for your patience with all my questions.

[mollymalone]

Thank you Mollymalone. I hope there is an extensive investigation into every penny that these people have been given. I do know that normally if restitution is ordered assets can be taken. I would hope that would be the case here. It appears if they have jets etc. those are assets.

Thank you for your patience with all my questions.You're welcome. :) I'm not sure if the jets are in the assets of the fund anymore. The man in charge of it has sold off some of those assets. I have a feeling that since the feds are involved and there has been an ongoing investigation since before/after Jeffs was arrested that it will bust wide open.

[golfmom]

This is from wikipedia about the Trust Fund and management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints

Property ownership

The FLDS Church also prevents its members from owning real estate and other property. The land and houses occupied by the FLDS Church are owned by the United Effort Plan (UEP), a subsidiary organization of the church. The UEP also owns most businesses that are controlled by FLDS Church members. The church views this "United Order" as a means of living the traditional Latter Day Saint doctrine of the "Law of Consecration". The Attorney General of Utah has filed a lawsuit in an attempt to protect the holdings of the UEP for the current residents of Colorado City and Hildale. The Attorney General is seeking to have the assets of the UEP reassigned to the FLDS Church members. The UEP has been frozen by court order pending a resolution of the lawsuit.[citation needed]

[golfmom]

You're welcome. :) I'm not sure if the jets are in the assets of the fund anymore. The man in charge of it has sold off some of those assets. I have a feeling that since the feds are involved and there has been an ongoing investigation since before/after Jeffs was arrested that it will bust wide open.

I read an article within the last couple of days that the fund management is hoping to get their hands on some of the documents from Eldorado regarding the financial assets.

Also, some of the assets have just disappeared, (ie, heavy equipment) and it's possible that they will find UEP owned assets in Eldorado.

[mollymalone]

I read an article within the last couple of days that the fund management is hoping to get their hands on some of the documents from Eldorado regarding the financial assets.

Also, some of the assets have just disappeared, (ie, heavy equipment) and it's possible that they will find UEP owned assets in Eldorado.I read that too. Almost overnight the assets were dismantled and moved. It's quite possible they'll find them there. I bet they are wanting to get their hands on those documents!!

[Truly]

Picking up on a question from the other thread, has the LDS officially struck the passages which call for polygamy from the Book of Mormon?

TIA!:blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

Now that we are on this thread. My understanding is that God's messages are left up to interpretations by humans and humans can make mistakes. For instance when a human was called upon to restore the gospel of the LDS church. In other words the original scriptures may have been misinterpreted. Now Woodruff claims he had a vision that if the LDS church continued the practice of polygamy it would result in chaos and the fall of the LDS church. Now call me silly, but I think any of us faced with the same set of circumstances would have been smart to realize that and would have have been able to predict the same thing. Vision, divine intervention or the actions of a smart man. That is the big debate that still continues.

I am pretty sure though, that there are lots of religions that don't practice what their original scriptures preached and ammendments made over time. So much is left up to interpretation from one religion to the next. Look at how some religions views differ on homosexuality. What a hot topic that is!

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/67/story_6702_1.html

So in 1890, Latter-day Saints President Wilford Woodruff announced a divine revelation that the church was ceasing the practice. Although many LDS polygamists refused to abandon their plural wives and families at the time, since 1904 it has been Mormon church policy to excommunicate members who practice or openly advocate polygamy.

How soon does anyone predict that Phelps group inserts themselves into the Texas story?

[SuziQ]

Picking up on a question from the other thread, has the LDS officially struck the passages which call for polygamy from the Book of Mormon?

TIA!:blowkiss:
Good question, but I've never read Book of Mormon. Let me do some checking.

[barb0301]

From : http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-18_news.asp

Latest News on Eldorado
News Brief: Friday, April 18, 2008

We are very gratified with today’s decision to keep all the children in temporary state custody because it stops the abuse and keeps all the children safe.
This allows us to keep children safe as we conduct a complete and thorough investigation and provide the physical and mental health services they need.
The children’s safety is our top priority. Our goal is always to reunite children with their parents if we can do so and make sure the child will be safe.
Today’s decision is about the safety of children. It is not a decision about religious freedom. The children will be allowed to worship freely. We respect and value the strong sense of faith these children have. We are not trying to change them; we are trying to keep them safe.
We’ll continue our efforts to identify the biological mother and father of each child, and it is our hope that the parents will work with us to ensure the safety of their children. On Monday, DNA testing will begin for the children and later in the week, testing will be available for the parents.
We’ll begin moving the children into more appropriate placements where we can provide all the services they need while continuing our investigation. We will try to keep children as close to their families as possible so they may see their parents under the conditions outlined by the judge.
Each child will have several people who are looking out for his or her best interests. The children will have court appointed special advocates and attorneys who will monitor their child’s care and progress and report back to the court.
This isn’t the end of the legal process or a final determination on the custody of the children. We will work with the judge, attorneys, special advocates, and hopefully the parents, to make the best decisions we can for the long-term health and safety of the children. We will update the court on the progress of each child's case by June 5.

[mollymalone]

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4684344&page=1

With Warren Jeffs still in jail doing time for rape as an accomplice in the forced marriage of an underage girl, another man has reportedly assumed Jeffs' authority. Four years ago, he was part of an attack on an ABC camera crew in the fundamentalist church community of Colorado City, Ariz.,His name is Willie Jessop, he's a former body guard to the "prophet" and said to be one of the most powerful men in the Texas compound today.

"You know it seems like whenever they're in trouble they call in Big Willie to just kind of run the show," said Sam Brower, a private detective who has spent the past five years tracking Warren Jeffs' flock across several western states. But he was -- he's been kind of Warren's bouncer. He is the one that stays in front of the meeting house door and kicks out people." Said Holm: "He told me he is willing to give his life in defense of Warren." "The fact that Willie is here is telling me that they're organizing," private detective Brower said. "They're organizing their stories. He's here to make sure that everything goes the way that the church leaders want it to go, and he's 'The Enforcer.

[SuziQ]

It appears that the original scriptures did not support polygamy and others over the years wreslted with it to fit and justify their needs and wants for polygamy. The last two years of his life, Joseph Smith tried to stamp out polygamy.

http://www.restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp18.htm

(snips)
When many people first hear about the Book of Mormon, they assume that it is a history of Joseph Smith and that it teaches that polygamy is a doctrine of the Church. These are false assumptions, for the Book of Mormon is a history of God's dealings with the people of Ancient America, and it condemns polygamy most severely.
If this is true, one may ask, How is it that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in polygamy? The answer is that the Mormon Church leaders of over a century ago practiced polygamy—but they did it in spite of the Book of Mormon's warnings against it. They did this by misinterpreting one statement in the book. They taught that polygamy was wrong—unless God gave the command to practice it, and then it became mandatory and a cardinal doctrine of their faith. They then proceeded to practice polygamy, claiming that God had commanded Joseph Smith to practice it and teach others to do so.

Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy
Volume I

How Men Nearest the Prophet Attached Polygamy to His Name
in Order to Justify Their Own Polygamous Crimes
By Richard and Pamela Price

At the time of Joseph Smith's death, several of the apostles and other leaders (including some who had performed missionary work among the polygamous Cochranites in the state of Maine) were secretly involved in polygamy, as previously noted. During the last two years of Joseph's life, he was continuously engaged in attempting to stamp out the practice of polygamy in the Church. In the spring of 1844 Joseph decided to expose the polygamists openly, in spite of the fact that a number of high Church officials were involved in that practice. Joseph sought out the Nauvoo Stake President, High Priest William Marks, and asked his help in expelling from the Church those in transgression. Within a few weeks Joseph and Hyrum were killed (see True Latter Day Saints' Herald 1 [January 1860]: 26; RLDS History of the Church 2:733–734).

ETA: it appears the LDS church has had a problem with renegade fundamentalists from day one and they lied about Joseph Smith being commanded by God to practice polygamy.

[mollymalone]

Brent Jeffs is one of the boys who says he was sexually abused by Warren jeffs, his uncle.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=4684344&page=4

Brent left the church years ago and now he has come to Texas to testify against the sect.

The women within the sect who spoke to the media have said time and again that the children are not in danger, but Brent believes "that's because they've convinced themselves that this is right. The men in here that have brainwashed these women and children have convinced them ever since they were babies that this is right." He said that the women and children are trapped, and lonely. "You can see it in their eyes," he said. "They just -- they're not even there. They're drones."

Brent Jeffs, who came all the way from Salt Lake City to testify, said he wasn't afraid to testify. "I know it's right," he said. "It needs to be done. Someone needs to stand up and say, 'This is wrong.' I'm going to do anything I can to help these poor kids and these moms. If they let me."

[Leila]

On the front page of CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html

Pentagon paid $1.7 million to firms of polygamy bosses

This is excellent! I think the media will expose the finances, and the financial empire will crumble.

[SuziQ]

This is excellent! I think the media will expose the finances, and the financial empire will crumble.

I was pretty happy to see that on CNN's front page.

[Truly]

Now that we are on this thread. My understanding is that God's messages are left up to interpretations by humans and humans can make mistakes. For instance when a human was called upon to restore the gospel of the LDS church. In other words the original scriptures may have been misinterpreted. Now Woodruff claims he had a vision that if the LDS church continued the practice of polygamy it would result in chaos and the fall of the LDS church. Now call me silly, but I think any of us faced with the same set of circumstances would have been smart to realize that and would have have been able to predict the same thing. Vision, divine intervention or the actions of a smart man. That is the big debate that still continues.

I am pretty sure though, that there are lots of religions that don't practice what their original scriptures preached and ammendments made over time. So much is left up to interpretation from one religion to the next. Look at how some religions views differ on homosexuality. What a hot topic that is!

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/67/story_6702_1.html

So in 1890, Latter-day Saints President Wilford Woodruff announced a divine revelation that the church was ceasing the practice. Although many LDS polygamists refused to abandon their plural wives and families at the time, since 1904 it has been Mormon church policy to excommunicate members who practice or openly advocate polygamy.

How soon does anyone predict that Phelps group inserts themselves into the Texas story?


Thanks, Suzi, and LOL on the Westboro Baptist Church! That would be a regular three ring circus! As an aside, I wonder if the official Baptist Church claims that the Phelps group is not a Baptist Church? I imagine they have the same dillemma with him that the LDS has with the FLDS!

[Truly]

This is excellent! I think the media will expose the finances, and the financial empire will crumble.

Yes, this is the crux of their empire. The financial fraud is way deeper that the women receiving food stamps or WIC. The men are absolutely raking in millions through huge contracts and most of that money has been funnelled directly into the hands of the men in charge of the cult.

In addition to NewWay Manufacturing, (which was formerly known as Western Precision), I have seen references to Utah Tool and Die, as well as JNJ Engineering out of Hillsdale, UT, and Tonto Supply out of Colorado City, AZ.

[SuziQ]

Molly, thanks for the link. There are a couple of good videos at that link. Here is one.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4679825&page=1

[Spydernweb]

Good question, but I've never read Book of Mormon. Let me do some checking.


From what I saw on the News and searching online, the Book of Mormon does NOT ok Poligamy. The ok on Poligamy came after in the Doctrine and Covenants book, which was written many years AFTER the Book of Mormon. There are 4 main Religious books as it was explained to the LDS and FLDS:

The Holy Bible
The Book of Mormon
The Pearl of Great price
The Doctrines and Covenants

Again the ONLY book that oks Poligamy is the Doctrine and Covenants.

Some people theorize is that Jospeh Smith added the ok on Poligamy section many years AFTER he founded the Religon and as a result of a possible affection for a Lady other then his wife. The Book of Mormon clearly states one wife for one man. I do NOT claim this to be true, just what I saw on a news show and doing some online searching.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

[SuziQ]

From what I saw on the News and searching online, the Book of Mormon does NOT ok Poligamy. The ok on Poligamy came after in the Doctrine and Covenants book, which was written many years AFTER the Book of Mormon. There are 4 main Religious books as it was explained to the LDS and FLDS:

The Holy Bible
The Book of Mormon
The Pearl of Great price
The Doctrines and Covenants

Again the ONLY book that oks Poligamy is the Doctrine and Covenants.

Some people theorize is that Jospeh Smith added the ok on Poligamy section many years AFTER he founded the Religon and as a result of a possible affection for a Lady other then his wife. The Book of Mormon clearly states one wife for one man. I do NOT claim this to be true, just what I saw on a news show and doing some online searching.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

Thank you, I'm just reading up more about this and it's fascinating. I'm now understanding that it wasn't Joseph Smith but his apostles that wrote the Doctrine and Covenants after his death, because they wanted to justify their own polygamist practice they had been keeping a secret and Joseph Smith was going to expose and excommunicate them. Sure makes the timing of Josephs Smiths murder suspect. What a bunch of liars and snakes.

[SuziQ]

http://www.restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp18.htm

Joseph Smith brought forth the Inspired Version of the Bible and the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. They too support the Book of Mormon's position condemning polygamy. In addition to these Three Standard Books, under Joseph's leadership the following periodicals were produced: the Evening and the Morning Star, the Messenger and Advocate, the Elders' Journal, and the Times and Seasons. A careful reading of these Church papers published during Joseph's lifetime shows that they all support the Book of Mormon's testimony against polygamy. There is not even a faint hint in any Church publication before Joseph's death on June 27, 1844, that polygamy could be right under any condition or circumstance.
*****
Reading up on Joseph Smith's murder is next. I don't know what the accepted theory or motive was behind it. Seems clear to me why he was murdered though.

[mollymalone]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4673093&page=1

This is on page 2 of the article:

"Experts told ABC News that women in the cult, which is also known as FLDS, wear as many as three layers of clothing underneath their dresses, including an undergarment they consider holy, three pairs of stockings and sometimes pants. Patterns or bright colors are forbidden — especially red, a color allegedly reserved for God — and any hint of makeup or loose-hanging hair is reason for severe punishment by father or husband.

"They don't want anybody to lust after you," Irene Spencer, 71, a former polygamist wife who wrote a book about her experience and who has several sisters and nieces still living at the Yearning for Zion Ranch, told ABC News. "They used to tell us that if a man saw your elbow it would turn him on."

"We could never wear makeup," Spencer said. "You can't touch that wicked stuff to your face or your lips at all. You can't even have bangs. They're very, very strict." Fears of breaking the group's code of appearance can apparently run deep."

[mollymalone]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=4673093&page=4
"of the women's hairstyle, she wrote, "Women need long hair. Our mothers in Heaven have long hair. This was revealed by the Prophets. … Hair left hanging is hot on the neck. … That is why most women braid their hair or put it up in a bun or twist."

"But Jessop dismissed the woman's arguments for practicality out of hand.
"That is bogus," she said. "That is a bunch of baloney that we all got fed. … It's considered adulterous to have your hair down. It's considered like you're trying to entice a man to have sex with you." "She is just reiterating what she was taught," Jessop continued, adding, "Think about how you would feel if you're weighed down with all that clothing. It affects your personality in a very literal way."

[SuziQ]

Here is a link to a motherlode of info regarding the Book of Mormon and Polygamy.

http://www.restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm

Polygamy in the Mormon Church did not originate with the Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo in the 1840s, but with Jacob Cochran in Saco, Maine in 1818. Later Day Saint missionaries, including Brigham Young, preached among the Cochranites, and later some of these missionaries became polygamists also. Dr. John C. Bennett practiced his own version of spiritual wifery in Nauvoo, which Joseph the Prophet vigorously opposed. Joseph, who had no plural wives, fought to keep polygamy, in any form, from becoming a doctrine of the Church. But soon after his death, some of the highest Church leaders introduced polygamy as a cardinal doctrine—and conspired to cover their own adulterous crimes by claiming that Joseph received a revelation commanding the practice, and that he had many wives.

[mollymalone]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=4673093&page=3

Of all the different garments sown and worn by the women of the Yearning for Zion Ranch, former cult members told ABC News the underwear is the most important. Covering the skin from neck to ankles and wrists, it is worn year-round underneath regular undergarments and said to be symbolic of the clothes that God provided for Adam and Eve to use in the Garden of Eden.

Seen as a kind of spiritual defense, some women don't remove the underwear even in the most intimate of situations. "My grandmother and aunts and some of the people I knew wouldn't even take them off to bathe," said former polygamist Spencer. "They would leave them on one leg and bathe the rest of their body and put them back on."

She added that some women keep the garments on even while giving birth or having intercourse with their husbands."They were told that [the undergarments] were supposed to be a protection and nothing would happen to them if they wore them," Spencer said.


Molly says :chicken: :eek:

[philamena]

This is such a fascinating read!
Thank you ladies for all your work.

She added that some women keep the garments on even while giving birth or having intercourse with their husbands."They were told that [the undergarments] were supposed to be a protection and nothing would happen to them if they wore them," Spencer said.
:banghead: :banghead: Those poor, poor women!

[Glow]

Response to Glowbug from the last page of part 3, of the previous thread.
Sorry hon but 500 years ago has nothing to do with the freakin present and what is happening in tat compound.


I see you called me glowbug. Is that a term of affection or is it because I bug you...?:blowkiss:

I understand what you are saying about how we don't live by what happened 500 years ago. I believe though that the best indicator of the future is the past. I also understand that the FLDS don't live by what is considered "modern day." I believe these people need to change. I just don't agree that "might makes right" is the best way to change them. I think the biggest changes that have every been wrought in the world are the ones that take place when you reach peoples minds and hearts. You wont find productive change anywhere but there. To change a persons views you have to approach them with insight. You have to first understand WHY they do "what" they do.

Lets remove it from FLDS for a moment. Suppose a cruise ship wrecked and the only survivors on a nearby island was a handful of 2 - 4 year old boys and girls. They are too young to have absorbed the culturally appropriate signals from their elders on most topics, including sexual mores. Survival has honed earlier primal instincts that guide them. They eat what they can find. They sleep when it is dark. They get up when the sun shine pierces their eyelids. You get the picture...

At what age do you think that this group of kids will start discovering sex? I think you would agree that it would be when biology kicked in. With no one there to counsel them about waiting till they were more emotionally mature they would just follow the hormonal urges. If you go way back in mankind's history the fact that people got about the business of multiplying as soon as they were capable, is what brought us to the point of having a full planet today.

My point is that setting a law in the books is one thing. What really goes on is another. It used to be a perception that once a girl began her period that she was considered to be of marriageable age. And that puberty is the process of change that takes place as you grow up and become physically mature and capable of having children. Menstruation / periods usually takes place between the ages of 10yo and 16yo. I remember in my little tampon kit that my mom gave me when I started my period there was a glossy pink tri fold insert that began with "So you are a woman now".... that was in 1968. Apparently I had crossed some magic line from girlhood to womanhood.

The problem here is who gets to set the "magic" line. Before 2004 the state of Texas said that magic line was the age of 14. Some feel that date was moved up to counteract this sects settling in Texas. So does that mean if a 14 yr old got pregnant in 2004 we cant prosecute her impregnator now? If she is a 16 yr old with a 2 yr old baby, was that legal then and now its not?


Here are a few random dates from history concerning that "magic line"

Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13yo (1350), and aged 14yo when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).

Theodora Comnena was aged 13yo when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).

Agnes of France was 12yo when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).

St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12yo when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.

and here is a famous one I am sure everyone has heard of:

Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13yo and bore a son within a few years.

I personally think that the more mature a woman is before she undertakes a sexual relationship the better. I don't think that the majority of low ranking FLDS are up to speed. I think their current leader has taken advantage of history and biology to mislead them. But I DO understand how he has manipulated the things I mentioned above to lead them to where they are today.

One more interesting note. If you look up the state of Texas teen birth rate of girls aged 13 - 15? It is appalling. Their stats are WORSE than the FLDS's. And they are the ones who are going to "rescue" these children? Really?

[Truly]

This is such a fascinating read!
Thank you ladies for all your work.


:banghead: :banghead: Those poor, poor women!


Holy Underwear, Batman! Although I have to admit that it is still confusing, because earlier Suzi told me that the LDS was called The Church of the Special Underwear! So maybe that is one common theme which binds all Mormons together (and keeps them apart in bed lol!). I am so not meaning any disrespect, but I am laughing my head off just thinking about not only making love, but giving birth in the holy underwear?

I have one very serious question: WTF???:crazy: :crazy:

[mollymalone]

This is a man's story of leaving the FLDS as a young boy with his brother.

http://poligazette.com/2008/04/17/outside-looking-in/

the Town Sheriff at that time (Sam Barlow) picked up myself and my younger Brother Paul and drove us from Colorado City to my Mothers home in Salt Lake City, Utah – To dispose us as we were “just a bit too spunky to stay in Colorado City”. Paul and I were very popular with kids our age and, looking back, I would have to say we were a “threat” to authority in Colorado City. We both had defied Authority on a couple of occasions and they needed to get rid of us – that is how we got disposed of – we were driven out of town, literally.

[SuziQ]

Alright, my eyes are going cross eyed. This is what I've gotten so far in researching the FLDS and the LDS.

First, the Book of Mormon never condoned polygamy. It was renegade fundamentalists that took over the LDS church and wrote polygamy into their doctrine after Joseph Smith died. Brigham Young was one bad dude. About 50 years later, Laws of the U.S. took over and the fundamentalists were ousted and they formed their own sects and the LDS church returned to it's original state. Joseph Smith must have been smiling that day.

ETA: That explains to me why FLDS should not be called mormons because they don't follow the true Book of Mormon, only the renegade ammendment to it.

[SuziQ]

Holy Underwear, Batman! Although I have to admit that it is still confusing, because earlier Suzi told me that the LDS was called The Church of the Special Underwear! So maybe that is one common theme which binds all Mormons together (and keeps them apart in bed lol!). I am so not meaning any disrespect, but I am laughing my head off just thinking about not only making love, but giving birth in the holy underwear?

I have one very serious question: WTF???:crazy: :crazy:

Lol, yes they both wear funny underwear. However, when people worldwide joke about the LDS church they say.."you know that church with the funny underwear" Kinda like I've heard Catholics referred to as the church with the funny dresses regarding what the priests wear.

[mollymalone]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080418.wpolygamy19/BNStory/International/home

Word that Canadian children were among those before the court audibly rattled Jane Blackmore, a resident of Creston, B.C., in the Kootenays. She had been married to Winston Blackmore, the so-called bishop of Bountiful, who has more than 20 wives. “Warren Jeffs's community is very closed. Even people living in Bountiful don't know who's missing from where,” Ms. Blackmore said in a telephone interview yesterday, struggling to keep her voice calm. “They've been suspecting that. There has been suspicion of that happening.”

But Debbie Palmer, also a former Bountiful wife, said the idea of giving up one's child to the “holy land” was welcomed by those still part of the sect. She cited the example of one of her nieces, who lives in Colorado City.“If Warren Jeffs had decided that one of her children needed to be taken away from her and raised in the Texas compound, well then I know she would have given that child up. In Canada, it's the same thing.”

[mollymalone]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080418.wpolygamy19/BNStory/International/home
The phone calls would come at any hour. Warren Jeffs......
would tell the man on the other end of the line to get his daughter ready. He would tell him she'd been hand-selected to live in the “holy land” – Mr. Jeffs's 1,691-acre Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Tex. – along with the religion's most fervent adherents, whom he referred to as the “heart's core.”A van, he'd say, would be arriving shortly to pick up their daughter.

The southeastern British Columbia town of Bountiful, a polygamous community with ties to the Texas stronghold, always suspected that their children were among those being lured to Zion, just as their U.S. counterparts were. Yesterday, confirmation came.

[Glow]

From : http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-18_news.asp

Latest News on Eldorado
News Brief: Friday, April 18, 2008

We are very gratified with today’s decision to keep all the children in temporary state custody because it stops the abuse and keeps all the children safe.
This allows us to keep children safe as we conduct a complete and thorough investigation and provide the physical and mental health services they need.
The children’s safety is our top priority. Our goal is always to reunite children with their parents if we can do so and make sure the child will be safe.
Today’s decision is about the safety of children. It is not a decision about religious freedom. The children will be allowed to worship freely. We respect and value the strong sense of faith these children have. We are not trying to change them; we are trying to keep them safe.
We’ll continue our efforts to identify the biological mother and father of each child, and it is our hope that the parents will work with us to ensure the safety of their children. On Monday, DNA testing will begin for the children and later in the week, testing will be available for the parents.
We’ll begin moving the children into more appropriate placements where we can provide all the services they need while continuing our investigation. We will try to keep children as close to their families as possible so they may see their parents under the conditions outlined by the judge.
Each child will have several people who are looking out for his or her best interests. The children will have court appointed special advocates and attorneys who will monitor their child’s care and progress and report back to the court.
This isn’t the end of the legal process or a final determination on the custody of the children. We will work with the judge, attorneys, special advocates, and hopefully the parents, to make the best decisions we can for the long-term health and safety of the children. We will update the court on the progress of each child's case by June 5.
I'm sure they do feel "gratified". Heck, winning feels good doesn't it?

But are they really qualified to assume responsibility for over 400 young children?

"Putting these kids in the Texas foster care system could prove tragic by any measure."
The state fails federal guidelines in five out of six key categories, including the "absence of abuse while in care," and "timeliness of adoption."

Because many of the children come from families with five or more siblings, officials say it is nearly certain they will have to be separated and placed apart from each other if kept in state care.

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/17852469.html

[Truly]

[quote]
Here are a few random dates from history concerning that "magic line"

Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13yo (1350), and aged 14yo when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).

Theodora Comnena was aged 13yo when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).

Agnes of France was 12yo when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).

St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12yo when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.

and here is a famous one I am sure everyone has heard of:

Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13yo and bore a son within a few years.



What ripe old age did any of these women live to?

It is apples and oranges to compare a woman's life in the 1100's to a woman's life today.

[mollymalone]

[quote]

What ripe old age did any of these women live to?

It is apples and oranges to compare a woman's life in the 1100's to a woman's life today.Right, different times, different societal pressures and mores.

[Glow]

Report from a task committee formed to address the state of Texas' substandard performance in childcare

Part V. Conclusion
Although many of the problems with the Texas foster care system in 2004 have been
improved, serious problems remain. In particular, the problem of increasing conservatorship
caseloads and inadequate conservator caseworker staffing, which are closely related to the
problem of inadequate funding, are simply getting worse, and the 80th Legislature’s efforts to
address the caseworker and caseload issues were inadequate. Without a continued and much
more significant effort by the state to address these problems, the children in Texas’ foster care system will suffer.

http://www.texasappleseed.net/1HZ601!.pdf

[Truly]

Right, different times, different societal pressures and mores.

Precisely. And even more to the point, different laws. There are laws in place protecting children from sexual abuse by adult men. The FLDS and a handful of other freaks can insist all day long that there is nothing wrong with a grown man raping a child. That might have worked in the year 1158, but today the child's rights are protected, and the abuser goes to prison. :behindbar

Glow, in all of your defense of the rights of the FLDS men, and your endless attacks on the government, why have you never once defended the rights of the child?

[Ladybass0711]

Now we are talking international crimes! HOLY crap they are in some serious sh!t

[Ladybass0711]

Report from a task committee formed to address the state of Texas' substandard performance in childcare

Part V. Conclusion
Although many of the problems with the Texas foster care system in 2004 have been
improved, serious problems remain. In particular, the problem of increasing conservatorship
caseloads and inadequate conservator caseworker staffing, which are closely related to the
problem of inadequate funding, are simply getting worse, and the 80th Legislature’s efforts to
address the caseworker and caseload issues were inadequate. Without a continued and much
more significant effort by the state to address these problems, the children in Texas’ foster care system will suffer.

http://www.texasappleseed.net/1HZ601!.pdf

Its nto the best situation I agree. But it will be ALTO better then being raped everyday.

BTW this has taken and International turn. If they can proove that canadian children were transported down to the states to be raped, they got a serious problem!

[Glow]

No one is being "RAPED EVERY DAY" that is just sensationalism. We don't want to fall in to that way of thinking if we want what is best for these children. The best thing for them is if people stand apart from the rampant "sensationalist" thinking and just think clearly.

[Ladybass0711]

No one is being "RAPED EVERY DAY" that is just sensationalism. We don't want to fall in to that way of thinking if we want what is best for these children. The best thing for them is if people stand apart from the rampant "sensationalist" thinking and just think clearly.


Do you kno wthat they are not being raped everyday?? I don't knwo that they are. But you don't know they aren't

[Truly]

No one is being "RAPED EVERY DAY" that is just sensationalism. We don't want to fall in to that way of thinking if we want what is best for these children. The best thing for them is if people stand apart from the rampant "sensationalist" thinking and just think clearly.

Oh, yeah I forgot. If the man has 30 wives, then each of them only get raped on average once a month.

[Truly]

Now we are talking international crimes! HOLY crap they are in some serious sh!t


I agree, Ladybass. I am glad that Canada will be investigating why Canadian children had been shipped to Jeffs compound. International trafficking in children. I hope that the men can be charged before they run and hide, cowards that they are. It has nothing to do with proving parentage; they already know which men were present in the compound on the day of the raid.

[Ladybass0711]

I agree, Ladybass. I am glad that Canada will be investigating why Canadian children had been shipped to Jeffs compound. International trafficking in children. I hope that the men can be charged before they run and hide, cowards that they are. It has nothing to do with proving parentage; they already know which men were present in the compound on the day of the raid.

I believe there will be many more raids or investigations going onCause they know whats been going down now.

[SuziQ]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15928947/detail.html

Texas Rangers confirmed Friday that a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman is considered a "person of interest" as they investigate who made the phone call that prompted a raid on a Texas polygamist compound.

"The Texas Ranger Division of the Texas Department of Public Safety is actively pursuing Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, Colo., as a 'person of interest' regarding telephone calls placed to a crisis center hot line in San Angelo, Texas, in late March 2008," the Texas Rangers said in a release Friday. (more at link)

[Leila]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15928947/detail.html

Texas Rangers confirmed Friday that a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman is considered a "person of interest" as they investigate who made the phone call that prompted a raid on a Texas polygamist compound.

"The Texas Ranger Division of the Texas Department of Public Safety is actively pursuing Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, Colo., as a 'person of interest' regarding telephone calls placed to a crisis center hot line in San Angelo, Texas, in late March 2008," the Texas Rangers said in a release Friday. (more at link)

The strange thing about all this is the comments of the FLDS women at the YFZ ranch. When the women came back to the ranch, reporters tried to question them, but the women were avoiding interviews. In response to a reporter's question about Sarah, one woman said, "there's no one here by that name" and walked away from the reporter

Then, a couple days later when the media was invited into the compound, reporters asked the same question about Sarah, and got a variety of answers - "She was here but got mad and left" and "she didn't like it here and is a traitor!" With that last comment, the woman who said it was angry.

Then the CPS worker testified that when she was at the school house interviewing children, about 5 by the name of Sarah were identified, and one seemed very close to the Sarah CPS was looking for. The CPS worker said that one of the children told her that Sarah had been there about 4 days prior to that day, but she hadn't seen her since.

It's these comments that make me go hmmmmmm.

[SuziQ]

Robert Kirby is one of my favorite columnists. He's got a warped sense of humor and can laugh at himself and the LDS church. And he just likes to mess with people.

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8977685

Recently, I spoke to a group of non-Utahns. It was clear from the beginning that none of them knew much about Mormons other than we were possibly - how to put this nicely? - nuts.
These were not stupid people. In fact, I admit to being the dumbest person in the room. They were in Salt Lake for a university-level conference. They probably all had doctorates in stuff more or less useful.
After my gab, I took polite questions about Mormonism, namely polygamy, the temple, plural marriage, underwear, extra wives and some more about polygamy.
One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.
I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter. (more at link)

[Floh]

Robert Kirby is one of my favorite columnists. He's got a warped sense of humor and can laugh at himself and the LDS church. And he just likes to mess with people.

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8977685

Recently, I spoke to a group of non-Utahns. It was clear from the beginning that none of them knew much about Mormons other than we were possibly - how to put this nicely? - nuts.
These were not stupid people. In fact, I admit to being the dumbest person in the room. They were in Salt Lake for a university-level conference. They probably all had doctorates in stuff more or less useful.
After my gab, I took polite questions about Mormonism, namely polygamy, the temple, plural marriage, underwear, extra wives and some more about polygamy.
One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.
I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter. (more at link)

I LOVE Robert Kirby! :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

[Mygirlsadie]

Yeah it's stupid and a bunch of brain washing crap. I love God and he loves me. He don't need me to wear that to prove anything to him..makes no sense. Anyway the only reason the women had to keep the undies on during intercourse was because they were 13 years old and probably scared to death that an old grandpa aged man was about to have sex with them. Maybe the undies was more of a security blanket type of thing for them. Poor kids. I hope the book gets thrown at all these perverts.




Holy Underwear, Batman! Although I have to admit that it is still confusing, because earlier Suzi told me that the LDS was called The Church of the Special Underwear! So maybe that is one common theme which binds all Mormons together (and keeps them apart in bed lol!). I am so not meaning any disrespect, but I am laughing my head off just thinking about not only making love, but giving birth in the holy underwear?

I have one very serious question: WTF???:crazy: :crazy:

[Glow]

Robert Kirby is one of my favorite columnists. He's got a warped sense of humor and can laugh at himself and the LDS church. And he just likes to mess with people.

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8977685

Recently, I spoke to a group of non-Utahns. It was clear from the beginning that none of them knew much about Mormons other than we were possibly - how to put this nicely? - nuts.
These were not stupid people. In fact, I admit to being the dumbest person in the room. They were in Salt Lake for a university-level conference. They probably all had doctorates in stuff more or less useful.
After my gab, I took polite questions about Mormonism, namely polygamy, the temple, plural marriage, underwear, extra wives and some more about polygamy.
One lady wanted to know when "regular" Mormons like me stopped practicing polygamy. I said we never did. She said she was pretty sure that we had because she read about it in Newsweek.
I explained that Mormons like me no longer needed to take plural wives to live polygamy, that there were enough disparate personalities in one average woman to satisfy the Lord on the matter. (more at link)

That is funny! hes got a good point! LOL

[Glow]

[quote]

What ripe old age did any of these women live to?

It is apples and oranges to compare a woman's life in the 1100's to a woman's life today.

So if the FLDS's only lived a shortened life style, it would be ok to have sex at pubescence?

[golfmom]

So if the FLDS's only lived a shortened life style, it would be ok to have sex at pubescence?


:waitasec: That's taking the question out of context.

[SuziQ]

I LOVE Robert Kirby! :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

He's a funny guy. His brother Ron, is the Chief of Police in my small town and my daughter dated the Chief's son during high school. She's met Robert amd says he is like that in person. I hear it lands him in hot water with his wife and sometimes in church on Sundays. lol.

[biggirl]

He's a funny guy. His brother Ron, is the Chief of Police in my small town and my daughter dated the Chief's son during high school. She's met Robert amd says he is like that in person. I hear it lands him in hot water with his wife and sometimes in church on Sundays. lol.

I bet it does get him in trouble, but you've got to appreciate that wit. He is refreshing to read.

[barb0301]

I'm sure they do feel "gratified". Heck, winning feels good doesn't it?

But are they really qualified to assume responsibility for over 400 young children?

"Putting these kids in the Texas foster care system could prove tragic by any measure."
The state fails federal guidelines in five out of six key categories, including the "absence of abuse while in care," and "timeliness of adoption."

Because many of the children come from families with five or more siblings, officials say it is nearly certain they will have to be separated and placed apart from each other if kept in state care.

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/17852469.html

Is any state ready to put 400 kids in foster care right now? Probably not? Is any state performing to high standards in foster care? No, we have a crisis on our hands in foster care right now.

However, that doesn't mean we need to leave the children in what is a potentially abusive situation. It has been proven that there are underage girls that are pregnant. There are adults who have not reported it. Both of those are crimes.

Until parentage can be sorted out, and the state is assured that these children are going to be safe in their homes with their parents, and are not going to be living with a sex offender, they really have no choice but to remove them.

Noone is looking at adoption right now. If the parents don't show up for DNA testing, we may have another story on our hands about that.

I was a foster parent in TX for over 15 years. There are wonderful foster families here, and I would say they are in the majority. Are many of the kids going to have to be separated? Probably, and it's a damned shame. If I could, I'd get my license renewed and take in a whole family of them. I had a sibling group of 6, and would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

There are no perfect answers in this situation. CPS has to do what it has been mandated by law to do, and I feel like they are doing that. The judge made the right decision, IMO. Many are going to disagree, and that is your right. But the laws of TX dictate what had to happen here. TX authorities have followed the law.

[Moe]

I really don't think the parents will submit to DNA testing, the results will prove criminal activity and perhaps end with incarceration. My belief is FLDS will claim the government is overzealous and prosecuting based on religious belief. The men are cowards, and will simply walk away, they may not even let the women be tested. This is going to get worse before it gets any better.

[Glow]

Do you kno wthat they are not being raped everyday?? I don't knwo that they are. But you don't know they aren't

Is it rape if a man over 18 has consensual sex with a girl under the legal age in that state? Yes it is, in a legal sense. That is why they call it statutory rape. That is the state acknowledging that it is "rape" ONLY in the legal sense. Putting that word statutory in front of the word rape lets the reader know that there are extenuating circumstances in a particular case.

The law of Texas said in 2006 that girls 14 and over could marry, so we can assume that having sex would be implied in that. Then the law changed to move the age to 16.

To know that there is someone being raped daily we would have to know exactly how many menstruating girls there are under the age of 16. Then we would have to know if they had been spiritually married or not. There would have to be 30 girls meeting that description for there to be a valid claim to a rape every day. And if the girl was a willing participant, then it could only be termed as statutory rape.

I see that term RAPE as well as INCEST and CHILD sex and PERVS leaping out in the comments section on a lot of the online newspapers articles. Sometimes I think that those people are using those inflammatory words to express their emotional outrage. But the majority of them I suspect are using the same words to "justify" things in their own conscience. Things that are making them uneasy as far as what they see a government doing here and what is being forced on these innocent children in the name of doing what is "good" for them. Using inflammatory phrases quiets that disturbing little conscience in a person. As long as they reassure themselves this excessive action is justified, because after all this is RAPE and PERVS etc etc they don't have to take a cold clear analytical look at what is happening here. They can just go back to their nice little comfortable life. After all, they did their part to protect society and these children...... they posted some buzz words about the bad guys on the internet.

so that is why I stay away from those words. And I think the rationalization that a few children meeting the legal definition of abuse justifys placing hundreds at risk, to be poorly thought out. Foster care is known for increasing a childs chance of being abused not decreasing it. So if 3 girls under the age of 16 are pregnant in this sect, I am NOT sure that justifies taking over 400 children and putting them into a system that ups all their chances of abuse. I will not be a voice for that. MY conscience wont allow me to.

Heres a sobering statistic...

In 2002, more than 17,000 girls aged 14 or under became pregnant nationwide (see this report from the Guttmacher Institute, pdf, p. 9). More than a quarter million American girls aged 15-17 became pregnant that same year (p. 7)!

In cases where the teens above were impregnated by males over the age of 18 then logically (?) we must admit to being a nation full of pervs and rapists. And we are taking the FLDS's children away?

[golfmom]

In cases where the teens above were impregnated by males over the age of 18 then logically (?) we must admit to being a nation full of pervs and rapists. And we are taking the FLDS's children away?

So it's perfectly acceptable to ignore the fact that the law is being broken and children are being abused? Because we can't arrest every single child rapist and pervert simultaneously, they should all get a free pass?

Glow, to me, your arguments just fall flat. Over and over you make the same points. And over and over you continue to misconstrue and take the arguments out of context. Comparing the laws to two years ago or 200 years ago is an exercise in futility. The only law that applies is the law as it's written today in Texas.

The only question is has FLDS broken the law in Texas and have children been abused? Clearly, from the testimony that is indeed the case.

[Glow]

Precisely. And even more to the point, different laws. There are laws in place protecting children from sexual abuse by adult men. The FLDS and a handful of other freaks can insist all day long that there is nothing wrong with a grown man raping a child. That might have worked in the year 1158, but today the child's rights are protected, and the abuser goes to prison. :behindbar

Glow, in all of your defense of the rights of the FLDS men, and your endless attacks on the government, why have you never once defended the rights of the child?


Read my words carefully. I haven't concerned myself with defending the FLDS men. I am ONLY thinking about the rights of the children and the rights of "us"..."our" society, yours and mine. Not the FLDS mens society. I dont live in their society and dont want to. I live in mine. So, logically I am concerned about mine. I havent attacked the government, I have questioned it. We all have the right and the obbligation to do so.

[barb0301]

Foster care is known for increasing a childs chance of being abused not decreasing it.

Where does this statistic come from?

99% of kids that go into foster care go in because they have already been abused. Yes, some of them are abused while in foster care, but I seriously question the statement above and any study that says that.

[SuziQ]

I really don't think the parents will submit to DNA testing, the results will prove criminal activity and perhaps end with incarceration. My belief is FLDS will claim the government is overzealous and prosecuting based on religious belief. The men are cowards, and will simply walk away, they may not even let the women be tested. This is going to get worse before it gets any better.

I agree. They may fight it as much as they can. I wouldn't surprise me to find YFZ Ranch abandoned literally overnight.

[SuziQ]

More this morning about Rozita Swinton and the calls to Texas:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA041908.01A.falsereports.388a5f6.html

Child Protection Project founder Linda Walker and the Phoenix-based group's executive director, Flora Jessop, said Friday they were stunned when they learned the woman's identity.
"In her little baby voice, she said, 'If you rescue me, and I get out of here, do you think the black people will hurt me?'" Walker said. "She had done her homework. She knew it was a racist cult. We know that these kids are very frightened of black people.
"The Texas Rangers told us she was obsessed with the FLDS. They confiscated tons of material on the FLDS (in the search of Swinton's home). She even gave real addresses and real names of FLDS people."

[Pepper]

http://www.restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp18.htm

Joseph Smith brought forth the Inspired Version of the Bible and the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. They too support the Book of Mormon's position condemning polygamy. In addition to these Three Standard Books, under Joseph's leadership the following periodicals were produced: the Evening and the Morning Star, the Messenger and Advocate, the Elders' Journal, and the Times and Seasons. A careful reading of these Church papers published during Joseph's lifetime shows that they all support the Book of Mormon's testimony against polygamy. There is not even a faint hint in any Church publication before Joseph's death on June 27, 1844, that polygamy could be right under any condition or circumstance.
*****
Reading up on Joseph Smith's murder is next. I don't know what the accepted theory or motive was behind it. Seems clear to me why he was murdered though.

So why did he (Joseph Smith) have 34 wives?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr.
Smith was married to approximately 33 women besides Emma.[48]In the group of Smith's well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith's own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty. [49] Although Smith fathered several children with Emma, no additional offspring from any of the women making a "plural wife" claim has ever been proven,[50] and in fact of the approximately twelve children of these wives that were claimed to have been fathered by Joseph Smith, five so far have been conclusively shown as genetically unrelated, through DNA analysis of living descendants.[51] Work is ongoing to determine paternity or non-paternity of the remaining individuals.

In official church publications, Smith publicly denied such doctrines existed.[52] During Smith's lifetime, his wife Emma reportedly "vacillated between acceptance and rejection" of the practice,[53] with Emma even attending the marriage of Smith to at least one of his plural wives.[54] However, Emma died denying that her husband ever had any other wives, as did Smith's eldest son Joseph. Emma Smith's deathbed testimony stated "no such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of... He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have."[55] However, one modern commentator has stated that due to Emma's opposition to plural marriage, Smith "moved ahead surreptitiously", resulting in Emma's being unaware of the existence of many of Smith's plural wives.[

[barb0301]

Does anyone else think that the lawyers for the FLDS will try to file appeals with the TX Supreme Court over the weekend or Monday morning?

[Glow]

Where does this statistic come from?

99% of kids that go into foster care go in because they have already been abused. Yes, some of them are abused while in foster care, but I seriously question the statement above and any study that says that.

You are right Barb. I wasn't very clear in expressing my thought. I was sitting here mulling over the fate of the other children currently being held. The ones who haven't been abused. If those children are made to share in the collective fate of the ones who are deemed as abused and therefore needing to be placed into the system, then those not abused children will now statistically stand an increased rate of being abused. Does that make any sense? I have to go for now....my daughter in law and I are headed out for a mom/daughter day. I will check back with you later! :blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

So why did he (Joseph Smith) have 34 wives?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr).
Smith was married to approximately 33 women besides Emma.[48]In the group of Smith's well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith's own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty. [49] Although Smith fathered several children with Emma, no additional offspring from any of the women making a "plural wife" claim has ever been proven,[50] and in fact of the approximately twelve children of these wives that were claimed to have been fathered by Joseph Smith, five so far have been conclusively shown as genetically unrelated, through DNA analysis of living descendants.[51] Work is ongoing to determine paternity or non-paternity of the remaining individuals.

In official church publications, Smith publicly denied such doctrines existed.[52] During Smith's lifetime, his wife Emma reportedly "vacillated between acceptance and rejection" of the practice,[53] with Emma even attending the marriage of Smith to at least one of his plural wives.[54] However, Emma died denying that her husband ever had any other wives, as did Smith's eldest son Joseph. Emma Smith's deathbed testimony stated "no such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of... He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have."[55] However, one modern commentator has stated that due to Emma's opposition to plural marriage, Smith "moved ahead surreptitiously", resulting in Emma's being unaware of the existence of many of Smith's plural wives.[

He didn't. That was a lie said by those who wanted to back up their claim that Joseph Smith supported polygamy. It was getting hard for polygamists to back up their claim if Joseph himself wasn't a polygamist. Many of the women that claimed to be Josephs wives were actually married to the men that Joseph was trying to expel from the LDS church for practicing polygamy. Those men instructed their wives to say they were Joseph Smith's wives. Brigham Young had possesion of all of Smiths papers after Joseph died. During that time many originals were conveniently lost and replaced with ones that are not in Josephs handwriting and signed with obviously someone else's signature. Brigham Young was the polygamist not Joseph.

http://www.restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp10.htm

ETA: Fortunately the renegade fundamentalists that took over the LDS church weren't able to get their hands on all documentation out there and change or cause it to mysteriously disappear.

[Trino]

If child support was an option back then, maybe Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would have had second thoughts. Each of these women is entitled to $ from the fathers, and I hope they collect. I even wonder if these women realize this. (I'll bet the fathers do.)

[barb0301]

You are right Barb. I wasn't very clear in expressing my thought. I was sitting here mulling over the fate of the other children currently being held. The ones who haven't been abused. If those children are made to share in the collective fate of the ones who are deemed as abused and therefore needing to be placed into the system, then those not abused children will now statistically stand an increased rate of being abused. Does that make any sense? I have to go for now....my daughter in law and I are headed out for a mom/daughter day. I will check back with you later! :blowkiss:

I understand what you are saying better now, thanks for clarifying. However, I still don't agree with it in this situation. We know that the girls are being groomed for early marriage in the Eldorado compound, and the boys are either going to be kicked out, or groomed to be a polygamist (bigamist), with underage wives. To me, they stand a much bigger chance of being abusesd in the FLDS compound than they do in the foster care system. Just my opinion, from personal experience.

ETA - have a fun day w/ DIL - sounds like fun !!!

[jilly]

Maybe now, this will force the Canadians to do something about Bountiful which they have been reluctant to do in the past.

http://www.ctvbc.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20080418/sect_hearing_080418/20080418/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

Oppal told The Canadian Press he had been alerted that some Canadians were involved. He said government officials would be getting involved, though it wasn't clear what their role would be.

"This has been an issue for quite some time in that it has been said that at Bountiful there are said to be some Americans there as well," Oppal said.

[Linda7NJ]

Heres a sobering statistic...

In 2002, more than 17,000 girls aged 14 or under became pregnant nationwide (see this report from the Guttmacher Institute, pdf, p. 9). More than a quarter million American girls aged 15-17 became pregnant that same year (p. 7)!

In cases where the teens above were impregnated by males over the age of 18 then logically (?) we must admit to being a nation full of pervs and rapists. And we are taking the FLDS's children away?

How many of those 17,000 concieved at the urging of their parents and by a 40+ year old adult man?

[Karole28]

Chick who was arrested for false report is likely Obama delegate: Click (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192350.php)

[cheko1]

You are right Barb. I wasn't very clear in expressing my thought. I was sitting here mulling over the fate of the other children currently being held. The ones who haven't been abused. If those children are made to share in the collective fate of the ones who are deemed as abused and therefore needing to be placed into the system, then those not abused children will now statistically stand an increased rate of being abused. Does that make any sense? I have to go for now....my daughter in law and I are headed out for a mom/daughter day. I will check back with you later! :blowkiss:

Glow I have been following your posts since the beginning of this. In one of your earliest posts. If my recollections are correct you were putting the rights of the FLDS with the Native Americans when they were put on reservations. That was wrong.

With the rights of the FLDS its much different. There is a possibility some of the kids are not being abused. It makes sense to me.....BUT the parents of these kids should & need to stand up & be held accountable. They need to go into court sit, as a pair of parents ( husband & wife only) how many could do that? They all have choices the same as you & I. You better bet if my kids had been taken away from me I'd take off the damn dresses / chop my hair off & DISTANCE myself as far away as possible. If my husband wouldn't sit beside me his azz would be history. Sweet wouldn't be in my vocabulary....

These people could very easily abide by the laws the same as we all do. Quit hiding behind a religion & fight for there kids. I'd bet any amount of money if the women stood up & said we want our kids back & could prove NO ABUSE! We will not be influenced in any which way by the FLDS men.
Its done / its over / the state will & would work with them to assist in getting them back down the road.

They claim to have college degrees, they claim to be teachers. They could get jobs the same as all of us. Instead they hide behind walls & behind weak men who rape & claim its there way of life, its ok turn your head. All of these women could stand up today for the kids.....how many actually are 100% willing to walk away from the compound?

[golfmom]

I have a hard time believing the mothers who say that they'd leave the compound to regain custody of their children. This group is well known for spouting off whatever "in the moment" to suit themselves and then promptly doing whatever the heck suits themselves.

[cheko1]

If child support was an option back then, maybe Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would have had second thoughts. Each of these women is entitled to $ from the fathers, and I hope they collect. I even wonder if these women realize this. (I'll bet the fathers do.)


This will be very interesting to find out how the men intend on paying child support for all these kids they have sired. I also hope the state of Texas goes after the men & the women who have received welfare & demand it back.

All they have to do is ask the women what they spent the money on & show receipts. If it went to the church let the church repay it for welfare fraud.

[Pepper]

Glow I have been following your posts since the beginning of this. In one of your earliest posts. If my recollections are correct you were putting the rights of the FLDS with the Native Americans when they were put on reservations. That was wrong.

With the rights of the FLDS its much different. There is a possibility some of the kids are not being abused. It makes sense to me.....BUT the parents of these kids should & need to stand up & be held accountable. They need to go into court sit, as a pair of parents ( husband & wife only) how many could do that? They all have choices the same as you & I. You better bet if my kids had been taken away from me I'd take off the damn dresses / chop my hair off & DISTANCE myself as far away as possible. If my husband wouldn't sit beside me his azz would be history. Sweet wouldn't be in my vocabulary....

These people could very easily abide by the laws the same as we all do. Quit hiding behind a religion & fight for there kids. I'd bet any amount of money if the women stood up & said we want our kids back & could prove NO ABUSE! We will not be influenced in any which way by the FLDS men.
Its done / its over / the state will & would work with them to assist in getting them back down the road.

They claim to have college degrees, they claim to be teachers. They could get jobs the same as all of us. Instead they hide behind walls & behind weak men who rape & claim its there way of life, its ok turn your head. All of these women could stand up today for the kids.....how many actually are 100% willing to walk away from the compound?
BS. I cannot believe any of these people, especially the women, have college degrees. First of all how do they get into college without having an accredited HS diploma? Secondly I can't see (especially the women) leaving the compound long enough to attend college, and Third, if they did, I don't see them going back to life in the compound.

[cheko1]

BS. I cannot believe any of these people, especially the women, have college degrees. First of all how do they get into college without having an accredited HS diploma? Secondly I can't see (especially the women) leaving the compound long enough to attend college, and Third, if they did, I don't see them going back to life in the compound.


I agree 100% with you!
Also the biggest question is who would of paid for college? Nope never happened.

[cheko1]

I have a hard time believing the mothers who say that they'd leave the compound to regain custody of their children. This group is well known for spouting off whatever "in the moment" to suit themselves and then promptly doing whatever the heck suits themselves.

They'd never leave the compound to get custody of the kids.
They'll say whatever they feel the world wants to hear at that moment.

Within a few months they'll all be pregnant again & the cycle will start all over again.

[golfmom]

The parents were told by Warren Jeffs to remove their children from public school in 2000. Before that they, minimally, finished 8th grade in a public school.

[cheko1]

Did anyone see the segment on TV lastnight where the advocate who helps the kids escape from the compound showed the cemetary & all the babies graves.

[cheko1]

The parents were told by Warren Jeffs to remove their children from public school in 2000. Before that they, minimally, finished 8th grade in a public school.

Now they're home schooled & only learn what Warren Jeffs wants them to learn.

[Leila]

The parents were told by Warren Jeffs to remove their children from public school in 2000. Before that they, minimally, finished 8th grade in a public school.

One of the articles I read in the past week was about the two 16-year-old girls, Fawn Broadbent and Fawn Holm, who escaped together from Colorado City in 2004. With the help of Flora Jessop, they were placed in a foster home in Salt Lake City. When they were tested for placement in school, they both tested at the 5th grade level. They were placed in their age appropriate grade, but had to have a home study program to catch up.

[SuziQ]

Chick who was arrested for false report is likely Obama delegate: Click (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192350.php)

Wowza, it's all over the blogs now. How long till it hits mainstream? I'm pretty sure McCain and Clinton's teams are going to be working this. As a blogger posted regarding this latest info to emerge. "I'm buying extra popcorn this week"

[golfmom]

Not that the conditions were stellar under Rulon, but after Warren took over everything went to hell in a hand basket.

[SuziQ]

Now they're home schooled & only learn what Warren Jeffs wants them to learn.

And much easier to hide the abuse.

[Karole28]

Wowza, it's all over the blogs now. How long till it hits mainstream? I'm pretty sure McCain and Clinton's teams are going to be working this. As a blogger posted regarding this latest info to emerge. "I'm buying extra popcorn this week"

Ohh, you can bet their camps are on it now. McCain's may be a little slower, but I'm sure Hillary already has her history, her family's history and her particpation in his campaign nailed down.

(me too on the popcorn!!) I love election season. And football season.

I just sleep through everything else. :crazy:

[SuziQ]

Not that the conditions were stellar under Rulon, but after Warren took over everything went to hell in a hand basket.

It's obvious I'm sure that I've become obsessed with the history and the origions of the LDS Church. I'm obsessed I tell you! lol. Seriously though, while I'm finding big differences between the FLDS and the LDS church, there are big similarities between Brigham Young and Warren Jeffs. Just like with Jeffs, things also went downhill for the LDS Church under Brigham Young. Most of the wacky assed ideas associated with the LDS church were introduced and written into doctrine by Brigham Young himself. Polygamy to justify him and his supporters criminal and perverted lifestyle. And blood atonement to justify Brighams violent tendency to control his flock and to settle scores, ala Mountain Meadow Massacre. The LDS Church has had to go back and rescind most of Brigham's covenants because they were unproven and detrimental to the future of the church.

Over the years the mention of Brigham Young to LDS Church members would earn you an eyeroll or a rude comment about him. Now I know why.

[golfmom]

It's obvious I'm sure that I've become obsessed with the history and the origions of the LDS Church. I'm obsessed I tell you! lol. Seriously though, while I'm finding big differences between the FLDS and the LDS church, there are big similarities between Brigham Young and Warren Jeffs. Just like with Jeffs, things also went downhill for the LDS Church under Brigham Young. Most of the wacky assed ideas associated with the LDS church were introduced and written into doctrine by Brigham Young himself. Polygamy to justify him and his supporters criminal and perverted lifestyle. And blood atonement to justify Brighams violent tendency to control his flock and to settle scores, ala Mountain Meadow Massacre. The LDS Church has had to go back and rescind most of Brigham's covenants because they were unproven and detrimental to the future of the church.

Over the years the mention of Brigham Young to LDS Church members would earn you an eyeroll or a rude comment about him. Now I know why.

Well, I guess the kook (Warren) looked to the kook (Brigham) to justify his little kingdom on earth.

btw: I totally get the obsessed thingy.

[Leila]

Ohh, you can bet their camps are on it now. McCain's may be a little slower, but I'm sure Hillary already has her history, her family's history and her particpation in his campaign nailed down.

(me too on the popcorn!!) I love election season. And football season.

I just sleep through everything else. :crazy:

This could get very interesting - actually it's got to be today, Sunday, and Monday to influence the Pennsylvania primary.