Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Love_Mama]

Sorry I don't mean it in a bad way. But they are saying that the woman in colorado could have made those calls. But I don't see it. I believe that the "sarah" who made the call is an actual real person, and these calls were legit.

But if they are focusing all there attention on the woman in colorado, then the sarah that made the calls, has yet to be found, . I don't think they should give up on trying to locate her.

Sorry that it sounded wrong the way I wrote it, I have been busy moving a friend, and just something I thought of. It was in no way meant as a disrespect.

LadyBass I read your first post.........and I don't think you have to apologize one bit.

I think I too can recognize the voice of a black person, went to school with ton's of black people, was the only white music major to ever graduate from this school, have been around the music business for years, and have very close friends and neighbors who are black but are educated and speak just like I do. . I've been called "UGLY" which to a young black girl mean's 'good lookin'........a white 'honkey by the the black kids at the playgrounds where I worked.........So what!


Hey, does nobody here watch Saturday nite live or the late nite shows.
Get over it. I don't think LadyBasses comment was not the least disrespectful and those of you who think so I consider 'white honkies'!

P.S. I am also voting for Barack Obama.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

xxxxxxxooooooo
mama

Back to thread............sorry to interupt.

xxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss:

[Seven]

There's a very good reason polygamy is outlawed, and the FLDS version is a good/very sad example. All you have to do to see that is "Do the Math".......

The very requirement that a man have a minimum of 3 wives to attain Heaven means that at least 2/3 of the boys/men will have no chance of either marrying or attaining Heaven.

And the reality is that the leader, “the prophet” historically assigns to himself a grossly unfair percentage of girls/women, upwards of as many as 30, 50, etc., leaving that same number of men without even 1 wife and thereby subject to the whims of the alpha males who naturally want to “thin the herd” by finding ways to kick out the young bucks.

That type of “lion pride” society is not conducive to the best interests of human boys and girls.

And, of course, the same principle would apply across the board to polygamy in general, IMHO.

[mollymalone]

Molly............the "blood atonement" is, indeed, very scary. Of great concern is the furnace that Warren Jeffs built at YFZ that was much hotter than needed for any sort of normal use. It arouses suspicions that it's use may have been intended to destroy evidence.

I haven't had time to read Bistline's online book, but hope to do so in the next few days.There's a few pages there, enough to know its probably got a lot of interesting information in the book. Wasn't that furnace built for a powder coating plant? If so, there are pics of that building included in the photos on the link I posted where the photographer documented the building of the compound from the beginning.

[mollymalone]

:clap::clap::clap: Excellent post Molly, you said it all!Thanks! I did see where some of the young women were given a "choice". They were given a list of men's names on it and they had to choose from the list or their choice would be made for them. That's not a choice by any means.

[LinasK]

LadyBass I read your first post.........and I don't think you have to apologize one bit.

I think I too can recognize the voice of a black person, went to school with ton's of black people, was the only white music major to ever graduate from this school, have been around the music business for years, and have very close friends and neighbors who are black but are educated and speak just like I do. . I've been called "UGLY" which to a young black girl mean's 'good lookin'........a white 'honkey by the the black kids at the playgrounds where I worked.........So what!

xxxxxxxooooooo
mama

Back to thread............sorry to interupt.

xxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss:

Exactly, and as a former Speech Pathologist for 13 years I can also attest that her comment was NOT racist, there are different vocal characteristics to different races. Black voices tend to be lower in pitch, as well as many using "Black English" or regional accents, like the South. These are physiologic and learned differences, not racism. People can identify races by intonation, without seeing the person. It's done over the phone all the time, as has been pointed out. Not everyone speaks unidentifiable perfect King's English!

[Mygirlsadie]

Actually it's possible as I am almost right every time. But anywho I think this race issue thing has had it's ten minutes of fame on this thread so i'll drop it.. :)



That's not possible. Not every black person speaks exactly the same way. I find this to be a rather ignorant statement.

[Seven]

About "choice" in FLDS the only choice a girl has is to say"yes" or "no," when The Prophet tells her which man she now belongs to. And if she says no . . .

Bound by Fear: Polygamy in Arizona
For decades the state has let a feudal colony of fundamentalist Mormons force underage girls into illegal polygamous marriages
By John Dougherty
published: March 13, 2003

"On a December morning four years ago, Ruth sought the advice of the Prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 88-year-old Rulon Jeffs. Ruth asked the stroke-ridden Jeffs for permission to marry Carl Cooke, a young man she had been seeing secretly for several months.

Jeffs pondered the question for a moment and then delivered a startling pronouncement.

"Well," Jeffs said, gesturing toward Rodney Holm, a police officer who had escorted Ruth to the meeting, "I feel she belongs to you."

Ruth was stunned, but not surprised. She barely knew Holm, but what she did know was disturbing.

At 32, Holm was twice her age.

And Rodney was already married – to two women, one of whom (his first wife) is Ruth's sister, Suzie."

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/content/printVersion/172264

[Leila]

I have nothing but respect for the Texas law enforcement and the CPS. Their response to the YFZ ranch was based on a phone call from a 16-year-old who told of abuse. They had no way going in to know that a few weeks down the road, that call would become suspect and a possible hoax.

LE and CPS went into the YFZ ranch with the intention of talking to and removing Sarah from the compound. What they saw within the confines of the ranch prompted a second search warrant and the removal of all the children. Based on initial information, they believed that about 200 people lived at the YFZ ranch. Again, they had no way of knowing that children were being hidden, moved from buildings not yet searched to buildings that had already been searched.

The real number of people living at the YFZ ranch was a surprise to all involved, but the authorities managed to cope. The initial living conditions were not the best, but all the children and mothers had a roof over their heads, beds, food, and other necessities. The local people pitched in and provided toys and other needed items. CPS quickly moved well over 500 people to Fort Concho and other facilities to better accommodate those removed.

When the court ordered that the children remain in the state's custody and that DNA testing be done to identify the children and their parents, CPS was able to get the testing underway in a matter of days, and also sought out the best solution to possible long-term care for the children.

I was very impressed with the pictures of two of the group facilities for some of the children, and the efforts of CPS to keep siblings together and in an environment that in some way resembles their usual home life. I think CPS has done a commendable job in trying to keep the children in a suitable environment that's respectful of their upbringing.

So until we see evidence to the contrary, I applaud the efforts of all those involved.

[Seven]

So until we see evidence to the contrary, I applaud the efforts of all those involved.

So do I. That's why I'm hoping the FLDS parents were treated the same way other parents are treated.

Do other parents get individual hearings before their children are taken from them?

Or does The State take the kids away/place them in
foster care FIRST, then give the parents a hearing afterwards? :confused:

[southcitymom]

Exactly, and as a former Speech Pathologist for 13 years I can also attest that her comment was NOT racist, there are different vocal characteristics to different races. Black voices tend to be lower in pitch, as well as many using "Black English" or regional accents, like the South. These are physiologic and learned differences, not racism. People can identify races by intonation, without seeing the person. It's done over the phone all the time, as has been pointed out. Not everyone speaks unidentifiable perfect King's English!

I was a recruiter for seven years and always interviewed people over the telephone before I met them face to face. It was exceedingly rare that when I met someone, they didn't look like I thought they would based on their dialect. It would have been racist if I had decided not to meet with someone because they "sounded" like a certain race or nationality, but I surely don't think it's racist to make the observation.:)

[golfmom]

LadyBass I read your first post.........and I don't think you have to apologize one bit.

I think I too can recognize the voice of a black person, went to school with ton's of black people, was the only white music major to ever graduate from this school, have been around the music business for years, and have very close friends and neighbors who are black but are educated and speak just like I do. . I've been called "UGLY" which to a young black girl mean's 'good lookin'........a white 'honkey by the the black kids at the playgrounds where I worked.........So what!


Hey, does nobody here watch Saturday nite live or the late nite shows.
Get over it. I don't think LadyBasses comment was not the least disrespectful and those of you who think so I consider 'white honkies'!

P.S. I am also voting for Barack Obama.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

xxxxxxxooooooo
mama

Back to thread............sorry to interupt.

xxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss:

Well Love_Mama, I was willing to let the subject drop, however, I do consider the claim that someone can identify a person's race by voice only very offensive. It's no different than claiming you can tell a person's sexual orientation by their voice as well. It doesn't matter to me that your voting for Obama.

[LinasK]

I do consider the claim that someone can identify a person's race by voice only very offensive. .

I was gone from this thread for awhile when the claims were made. Tell me exactly what about identifying a person's voice is offensive?????:confused:

[mollymalone]

http://humanproject.blogspot.com/2006/09/text-of-warren-jeffs-song-for-students.html

Deseret Morning News, Thursday, September 07, 2006
Text of Warren Jeffs song for students
Text of a song taught to first- and second-grade students in FLDS schools

Excerpt: WE LOVE YOU, UNCLE WARREN
Uncle Warren is a tall man; he is nearly six-feet-four,
He sometimes has to duck a bit when coming through a door;
But never is he known to flee or duck responsibility.

[LinasK]

http://humanproject.blogspot.com/2006/09/text-of-warren-jeffs-song-for-students.html

Deseret Morning News, Thursday, September 07, 2006
Text of Warren Jeffs song for students
Text of a song taught to first- and second-grade students in FLDS schools

Excerpt: WE LOVE YOU, UNCLE WARREN
Uncle Warren is a tall man; he is nearly six-feet-four,
He sometimes has to duck a bit when coming through a door;
But never is he known to flee or duck responsibility.

Kind to all, full of love, doesn't hold a grudge, plain man, shuns riches?????:bang:
Not at all the public face of the Warren Jeffs we know!

[Native New Yorker]

Sorry, but I have to chime in with my two cents as to voices...
I lived in Georgia for nearly 20 years, and if you hear poor white Southerners speak, it is often heard to discern their race...many of them sound just like black folks....they have lived in close proximity for hundreds of years, unlike in the more segregated North.
I am a native Yankee, but married a Southerner. Have also traveled in Miss, Ark, Ala....
no way to tell over the phone, is what I say...
but I found nothing offensive in the original observation, since it could mean that Sarah is still out there.

[mollymalone]

Kind to all, full of love, doesn't hold a grudge, plain man, shuns riches?????:bang:
Not at all the public face of the Warren Jeffs we know!:rolleyes: Nope! Private jets, fancy red car, laptops, wigs, lotsa money and let's not forget the grudge one! Excommunicating those who say "no or why?"

http://www.ruralwomyn.net/polygamy_lecture.html
A lecture where Jessop spoke about the women's hygiene. I'd read about the Lost Boys and their lack of knowledge regarding hygiene and I'd wondered just how many of the women there had std's since they were sharing the men. Jessop says that many of them have infections because they only wash their hair. Wearing that much clothing and it gets awful hot in high temps, the thought is ugh!

[mollymalone]

Women suing to end abuse
http://www.ruralwomyn.net/polygamy_2004_02.html

"Rodney Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney who represents the polygamist groups in Colorado City; Hildale, Utah; and Bountiful, has said that members of the fundamentalist church deny charges that women or girls are forced into marriage. "They enter those relationships voluntarily with the consent of their parents and extended family," Parker wrote earlier this year in a letter to Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. "Although their model of marriage by revelation runs counter to traditional notions of romantic love and marriage, the model works for them because they have confidence in it," Parker added."

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/07/06/lost_boys/index2.html
"Some boys ran away or left after a family member did. Others were ousted for violations such as wanting to go to public school, something that Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney and church spokesman, denies.
Parker said it was hard to generalize about the boys, but noted they were not involved with the church anymore because of the choices they made.

"These people are minimizing the reasons for their not being part of the church anymore," he said. "They tend to be juvenile delinquents, they tend to have criminal problems, they have drug problems. They have all kinds of things going on with their lives that are incompatible with the church."

Edited to add this link: http://www.ruralwomyn.net/polygamy.html
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City lawyer who represents the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the adjoining towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., said stories of young teenagers being forced into marriage were exaggerations. "I don't see it happening," Mr. Parker said. "In rare instances, girls under 15 are married to other teenagers, but that is not common in the community I represent."

THIS IS THE SAME PARKER WHO IS ATTORNEY FOR THE FLDS that's been in the news recently. Talk about spin and turning a BLIND EYE.

[LinasK]

I started watching the Video: "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy"-82 min. long, (I have to go now), but I learned that what appealed to the women was the prospect of them becoming Goddesses!:eek:

[barb0301]

So do I. That's why I'm hoping the FLDS parents were treated the same way other parents are treated.

Do other parents get individual hearings before their children are taken from them?

Or does The State take the kids away/place them in
foster care FIRST, then give the parents a hearing afterwards? :confused:

Hi Seven,
the way it works here in TX, is that under "emergency circumstances" (which is what CPS is calling their removal of the children), the children can be removed from the home (and both parents, incl. all adults living within that home), with an order from the judge, given ex parte. An emergency hearing must be held with the judge within 3 working days of removal of the child. Parents do not have to be there. An adversarial hearing must be held within 14 days to decide if the child will remain in custody temporarily or return to the home. Parents are entitled to be present and/or represented by counsel at the adversarial hearing.

The biggest differences in this situation have been:

The number of children removed
Mothers were allowed to accompany their children (CPS never allows a parent to accompany a child removed from the home)
The adversarial hearing was held as a "group" hearing within the 14 days, due to the sheer numbers, rather than 400+ individual hearings (this is what the lawyers for FLDS are arguing now and appealing).Individual hearings are scheduled to be done by June 5th for all 462 children now in state custody. WHEW, what a job !!!

[mollymalone]

I started watching the Video: "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy"-82 min. long, (I have to go now), but I learned that what appealed to the women was the prospect of them becoming Goddesses!:eek::chicken: Well, if their "man" is supposed to be come Gods and rule planets that might appeal to a certain amount of the women, especially those who embrace the lifestyle even with it's negative aspects. But I don't see how they'd be goddesses since they're lower caste than the men. Heck, even on those planets they'd be wanting younger goddesses than them.

[Seven]

Hi Seven,
the way it works here in TX, is that under "emergency circumstances" (which is what CPS is calling their removal of the children), the children can be removed from the home (and both parents, incl. all adults living within that home), with an order from the judge, given ex parte. An emergency hearing must be held with the judge within 3 working days of removal of the child. Parents do not have to be there. An adversarial hearing must be held within 14 days to decide if the child will remain in custody temporarily or return to the home. Parents are entitled to be present and/or represented by counsel at the adversarial hearing.

The biggest differences in this situation have been:
The number of children removed
Mothers were allowed to accompany their children (CPS never allows a parent to accompany a child removed from the home)
The adversarial hearing was held as a "group" hearing within the 14 days, due to the sheer numbers, rather than 400+ individual hearings (this is what the lawyers for FLDS are arguing now and appealing).Individual hearings are scheduled to be done by June 5th for all 462 children now in state custody. WHEW, what a job !!!

Thank you, barb0304! :)

I suppose the State could point out that the parents failed when asked (if they were in fact asked) to identify which children were theirs. Because that would have forced The State to find temporary accommodations for the children while their parentage is sorted out.

I got another question ..... Is polygamy against the law in Texas?

I know the FLDS try to squirm out of it by saying there's only one legal marriage and the rest are "celestial" marriages, but does that fly as a defense against what the FLDS (and others like them) are obviously doing?

[Seven]

:chicken: Well, if their "man" is supposed to be come Gods and rule planets that might appeal to a certain amount of the women, especially those who embrace the lifestyle even with it's negative aspects. But I don't see how they'd be goddesses since they're lower caste than the men. Heck, even on those planets they'd be wanting younger goddesses than them.

LOL .... starting to sound a lot like "72 virgins" in heaven! :eek:

Apparently, men when thinking with the little head can believe anything! :rolleyes:

[Ladybass0711]

BREAKING NEWS: All sect children have now been shipped out from San Angelo Fairgrounds


http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/25/more-buses-leave-coliseum/

[mollymalone]

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html
Picture of guard tower at Pringle SD compound.

These places all seem to have prison like guard towers. A "religion" with guard towers yet the faithful are no longer allowed to attend church. PFFT

[barb0301]

Thank you, barb0304! :)

I suppose the State could point out that the parents failed when asked (if they were in fact asked) to identify which children were theirs. Because that would have forced The State to find temporary accommodations for the children while their parentage is sorted out.

I got another question ..... Is polygamy against the law in Texas?

I know the FLDS try to squirm out of it by saying there's only one legal marriage and the rest are "celestial" marriages, but does that fly as a defense against what the FLDS (and others like them) are obviously doing?

Yes, polygamy is against the law in TX. TX also recognizes common law marriages, so the FLDS "celestial" marriages are legal marriages here in TX.

The failure of the parents to cooperate in the investigation by giving proper i.d.,names, names of children, etc. could conceivably add more charges to them from the research I am doing now. I'll update on that later when I finish. But it definitely will not help them to get their children back. TX is going to take a hard stand on allowing children to go back to homes without proper parentage established, either by DNA or legal adoption papers or something.

[golfmom]

I was gone from this thread for awhile when the claims were made. Tell me exactly what about identifying a person's voice is offensive?????:confused:

I'm not exactly sure what I can add to the conversation other than some members have stated that they can tell the race of a person by their voice alone.

What if a person is racially mixed? Can their percentage be determined? At what racial mix do they lose the "color" in their speech?
What if a person is adopted and raised in a community outside of their race? Would those vocal racial identifiers still be so strong that you can determine their race?
What about a second generation American? Can you identify their family's origins?
If as the poster claims that they can "mock" a black speech patterns, are black's physically incapable of "mocking" a "whites"?
So, if someone of another race, speaks English proper, do you then say they're "speaking white?" What about all those little suburban wannabe gangsters? Are they "speaking black?"
Is it not stereotypical and discrimination to assume that all whites speak "white" English and all blacks speak "black" English?

[LinasK]

What if a person is racially mixed? Can their percentage be determined? At what racial mix do they lose the "color" in their speech?
What if a person is adopted and raised in a community outside of their race? Would those vocal racial identifiers still be so strong that you can determine their race?
What about a second generation American? Can you identify their family's origins?
If as the poster claims that they can "mock" a black speech patterns, are black's physically incapable of "mocking" a "whites"?
So, if someone of another race, speaks English proper, do you then say they're "speaking white?" What about all those little suburban wannabe gangsters? Are they "speaking black?"
Is it not stereotypical and discrimination to assume that all whites speak "white" English and all blacks speak "black" English?
I never made this assumption, to do so would be putting words in my mouth. I have a Master's Degree in Speech Pathology (and a Bachelor's in Linguistics). Part of the curriculum besides Voice Disorders, is to study Speech Science, in which we do look at vocal patterns, pitch, intonation, inflections, etc. There are patterns that can be identified for certain people, and it may go back more than one generation. For example, my mother was raised in the midwest and said the word "roof" differently from most people in California, where I was born, yet being around my mother, I picked up her pronunciation and would sometimes say [roof], like book-short u, instead of [ruf]- long u. People would ask where I was from because of that.
Gang wannabes, although they may adopt the lingo, don't usually also pay close enough attention to also mimic the pitch and other intonation changes. There is an actual identified speech pattern called "Black English". It has certain liguistic characteristics to it, such as reversing the sk in the word ask to become [aks], and simplifying the verb "to be", such as saying "I be black" instead of "I am black".
Hope this helps answer some of your questions...

[LinasK]

BREAKING NEWS: All sect children have now been shipped out from San Angelo Fairgrounds


http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/25/more-buses-leave-coliseum/

So Ladybass, has there been any word on you going down there to help?

[Linda7NJ]

Is it not stereotypical and discrimination to assume that all whites speak "white" English and all blacks speak "black" English?


Yes it is...

I am still stunned by some of the comments............keeping notes too;)

[mollymalone]

Warren Jeff's car had several wigs in it, and apparently there are those men who don't wish to be recognized within the flds who use them. I suppose they think that if they're wearing wigs no one will recognize them from photographs. They're probably some of the men who feel they'll be prosecuted for abuse or other issues.


http://www.childbrides.org/dakota_RCJ_fences_seperate_members_society.html

Two Canadian women who recently tried to visit relatives at the Pringle compound were turned away by several men. The men were wearing wigs, but the women recognized several of them anyway, according to Cecelia Blackmore of Lister, British Columbia. Wyler said the wigs don’t make sense because as far as he knows, none of the men at Pringle is a fugitive. "It’s almost as if they’re in this fantasy land," he said. "It’s like they’re running from things. I’m sure they’ve done things they know they should run from. Half of the time, they’re running because they know they’re guilty, not because anybody’s chasing."

[Linda7NJ]

I never made this assumption, to do so would be putting words in my mouth. I have a Master's Degree in Speech Pathology (and a Bachelor's in Linguistics). Part of the curriculum besides Voice Disorders, is to study Speech Science, in which we do look at vocal patterns, pitch, intonation, inflections, etc. There are patterns that can be identified for certain people, and it may go back more than one generation. For example, my mother was raised in the Midwest and said the word "roof" differently from most people in California, where I was born, yet being around my mother, I picked up her pronunciation and would sometimes say [roof], like book-short u, instead of [ruf]- long u. People would ask where I was from because of that.
Gang wannabes, although they may adopt the lingo, don't usually also pay close enough attention to also mimic the pitch and other intonation changes. There is an actual identified speech pattern called "Black English". It has certain linguistic characteristics to it, such as reversing the skin the word ask to become [aks], and simplifying the verb "to be", such as saying "I be black" instead of "I am black".
Hope this helps answer some of your questions...


I don't care what your master degree is in!

Ebonics isn't spoken by all blacks and to imply it is, is ridiculous!!!

[Ladybass0711]

So Ladybass, has there been any word on you going down there to help?

I am in contact with the agency, and have let them know to give me the word, and I will be down there, they want to get the kids set up, and settled, and then they will be back in touch with me.

[thefragile7393]

I don't care what your master degree is in!

Ebonics isn't spoken by all blacks and to imply it is, is ridiculous!!!
Somehow I don't think she's talking about ebonics.......
I am in contact with the agency, and have let them know to give me the word, and I will be down there, they want to get the kids set up, and settled, and then they will be back in touch with me.
Awesome....it will be nice to see the follow-ups for this

[mollymalone]

Carolyn Jessop talked about Merrill Jessops abuse and holding the children under water. She's not the only one from the FLDS who speaks of this.

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota_CCC_trial_will_set_precedent_for_years.html
Cora Fischer, who also grew up in the FLDS in Colorado City, Ariz., became a second wife at age 14. Her husband would discipline his children by holding them under water until they passed out. He once held the inside of his daughter’s arm against a light bulb until her skin melted, according to Fischer. To teach his daughters about sexuality he would demonstrate on himself.

When her husband’s first wife was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor, her doctor insisted she not have any more children, as that would rob her of precious life resources. However, because polygamist women are supposed to have a child a year, she was not given that choice. Instead, she gave birth to three more babies — the last while she lay unconscious, as her life ebbed out of her and she died.

[Ladybass0711]

I don't care what your master degree is in!

Ebonics isn't spoken by all blacks and to imply it is, is ridiculous!!!

Ok I am sorry that I started this. It was not my intention.. All I was trying to get answered was whether or not the authorities may be on the wrong oath here, and it has yet to be answered!

As a side point, people who grow up in the south born, and raised there have a southern accent. Its not that difficult to know who is from the south, or not.

I didn't mean for my comment to be racist, nor did I mean ANY disrespect with this question!!!!!!!!!

I just know with my own personal expierence, I am able to tell when I am talking with a black or white person or whether I am talking to a person from the south, or from canada, or some other foreign country.

And please don't call me racist, because I have SEVERAL Black friends, and that is the least on my mind.. It was just a simple question, I meant NO harm in it. For those I have offended I do apoligize!


So can we PLEASE get back on the topic of these children that have been violated??? I just would like to know if anyone else thinks the authorities are on the wrong track, by following up on this colorado woman, rather then focusing there effort on locating the true "Sarah"????

[Seven]

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html
Picture of guard tower at Pringle SD compound.

These places all seem to have prison like guard towers. A "religion" with guard towers yet the faithful are no longer allowed to attend church. PFFT

I wonder how many of these types of polygamous towns actually exist in these United States/North America?

This is turning out to be one huge topic.
Too many tentacles to cover in a single thread.

Apparently, there's something called the United Effort Plan (or something like that) that's a trust fund that holds all the finances for this group, which is why they can kick a man out, take his wife(s) and children and his home, because all the land is owned by the UEP and they have the right to evict anyone they choose.

It's like the old feudal system where the land is owned by a prince and everyone else is living on HIS land! :mad:

[mollymalone]

LadyBass I think authorities have to investigate Swinton, but at the same time they should be ensuring that there really was/was not a Sarah who made that phone call. The phone calls she made to Jessop were clearly traced, however I haven't heard whether the first call to a shelter was traced or not.

[mollymalone]

In addition to the genetic disorders, it appears there are problems with stds, probably because of poor hygiene and the constant sharing of partners. Even the children.

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html
"It would be difficult to pull a girl out of Colorado City who hasn’t been sexually assaulted," she said, adding that she knows of girls as young as 12 who have been forced to marry their step fathers. As the 25th of 31 offspring of her father, Chapman’s earliest memories are of molestation and rape by her father. She was also routinely fondled by her brothers. And the leaders claim these acts are their right because it is their religion. On Chapman’s 16th birthday, she was taken for a ride by her father for her "sexuality lesson." According to Chapman, it was a tradition for all her father’s daughters and his attempt to legitimize his rape of them.
After her marriage, one of her father-in-law’s wives became plagued with STD around her rectum, while the small grandchildren developed STD in and around their mouths.

[Seven]

Yes, polygamy is against the law in TX. TX also recognizes common law marriages, so the FLDS "celestial" marriages are legal marriages here in TX.

The failure of the parents to cooperate in the investigation by giving proper i.d.,names, names of children, etc. could conceivably add more charges to them from the research I am doing now. I'll update on that later when I finish. But it definitely will not help them to get their children back. TX is going to take a hard stand on allowing children to go back to homes without proper parentage established, either by DNA or legal adoption papers or something.

That's good news, barb!

If common law marriage is recognized, then FLDS obviously w/b guilty of violating the anti-polygamy laws.

omg ....... this case is gonna be H U G E!

Multiple generations of children could be saved from the
harmful effects of this lifestyle if Texas does this case up right! :clap:

[mollymalone]

The children who were at the Texas compound were said to be clean and healthy and I hope that's true, but I worry about their counterparts still within the sect at the various locations. It appears that there's been a decided lack of adequate medical care or treatement in some cases. IF this incident would result in changes being made within the flds towards the women and children, and yes, the men, those who've been brainwashed along with the rest it would benefit the children throughout the sect. However I don't think that's likely.

[mollymalone]

Okay, so Jeffs fancies himself a singer and songwriter. His followers have his tapes on ipod of him and his wives singing.

Thanks to:
http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/04/like-a-sect-mac.html
for this uh....well..listen for yourself....Jeffs singing
Click on:
"Yearning For Zion" by Warren Jeffs (MP3)

[Trino]

I never made this assumption, to do so would be putting words in my mouth. I have a Master's Degree in Speech Pathology (and a Bachelor's in Linguistics). Part of the curriculum besides Voice Disorders, is to study Speech Science, in which we do look at vocal patterns, pitch, intonation, inflections, etc. There are patterns that can be identified for certain people, and it may go back more than one generation. For example, my mother was raised in the midwest and said the word "roof" differently from most people in California, where I was born, yet being around my mother, I picked up her pronunciation and would sometimes say [roof], like book-short u, instead of [ruf]- long u. People would ask where I was from because of that.
Gang wannabes, although they may adopt the lingo, don't usually also pay close enough attention to also mimic the pitch and other intonation changes. There is an actual identified speech pattern called "Black English". It has certain liguistic characteristics to it, such as reversing the sk in the word ask to become [aks], and simplifying the verb "to be", such as saying "I be black" instead of "I am black".
Hope this helps answer some of your questions...

Sorry, but I feel your comments are stereotypical. Of course, there is/was Black English, but this is more of a class idea. There are many well educated Black persons who speak perfect English, and I would bet you would not be able to identify their race. You don't necessarily find educated Blacks using "I be..."

I have a friend who adopted a Black daughter, and she speaks just like her brothers and sisters. Speech is not a racial thing.

[Ladybass0711]

Sorry, but I feel your comments are stereotypical. Of course, there is/was Black English, but this is more of a class idea. There are many well educated Black persons who speak perfect English, and I would bet you would not be able to identify their race. You don't necessarily find educated Blacks using "I be..."

I have a friend who adopted a Black daughter, and she speaks just like her brothers and sisters. Speech is not a racial thing.


I want to be clear. I was not talking about there grammer, I was talking about there ACCENT! It did not appear to be a black persons accent!

[Ladybass0711]

462 children now and 25 more have been dicovered to be pregnant. Nancy Grace reporting it

[Ladybass0711]

also Nancy grace is reporting and going to play the tapes of the recording.

[mollymalone]

Are these teens already in CPS custody or did they find them at the ranch?

"Authorities say they have uncovered evidence of widespread child abuse at ranch."

[Ladybass0711]

Are these teens already in CPS custody or did they find them at the ranch?

"Authorities say they have uncovered evidence of widespread child abuse at ranch."


I believe they are already in state custody. But there was the original 18-20 that were underage and pregnant. And now they were able to locate 25 more pregnant, underage teens.

[golfmom]

Sorry, but I feel your comments are stereotypical. Of course, there is/was Black English, but this is more of a class idea. There are many well educated Black persons who speak perfect English, and I would bet you would not be able to identify their race. You don't necessarily find educated Blacks using "I be..."

I have a friend who adopted a Black daughter, and she speaks just like her brothers and sisters. Speech is not a racial thing.

And just as another poster pointed out, in some southern regions there's virtually no way to tell if you're speaking to a white person or a black person without being there in person. AND, a lot of times that won't even give you a clue because there are a lot of very light skinned blacks that can / have passed for white.

[mollymalone]

I believe they are already in state custody. But there was the original 18-20 that were underage and pregnant. And now they were able to locate 25 more pregnant, underage teens.Ok, thanks.

[SewingDeb]

The problem with shutting them down was the religion factor. Public opinion earlier on saw only the children being taken from mothers in the Short Creek raid and after that it was considered political suicide to go after them I suppose. Part of the problem was charges on polygamy, no one wants to open that can of worms, yet there have been prosecutions against individual members for other crimes such as the underage age marriage or abuse.
However, some of the sentences were so lenient they were laughable considering the crimes.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy448.html

Forgot the link but here's where another article can be found:
Blind Eye to Culture of Abuse Blind Eye to Culture of Abuse Children of a polygamist sect have been exploited,
molested for years.
The Los Angeles Times/May 12, 2006

Thanks for the link Molly. Some severe sentences way back in 1953 might have helped.

[mollymalone]

Journalist on CNN quoted the "When Men become Gods" author. "The author does believe there is or was a birthing center on that ranch and that could be why there were no birth certificates. There was so much inbreeding and incest, a lot of babies died early. Outside of Jeff's log cabin ..."

*Molly says (I don't know whether this is in reference to Jeff's house in Colorado City)*

"there was an actual graveyard of the babies who had died shortly after childbirth, from an illness they get from inbreeding."

[mollymalone]

Thanks for the link Molly. Some severe sentences way back in 1953 might have helped.If wishes were fishes... I seriously doubt severe sentences would have stopped it. It might have deterred a few but more likely they would have simply moved away in order not to face charges, kept their families under lock and key more than they were.

[Linda7NJ]

I want to be clear. I was not talking about there grammar, I was talking about there ACCENT! It did not appear to be a black persons accent!


"accent" If I were you, I wouldn't make any more comments on the subject, you're just digging the hole deeper:twocents:

[golfmom]

I never made this assumption, to do so would be putting words in my mouth. I have a Master's Degree in Speech Pathology (and a Bachelor's in Linguistics). Part of the curriculum besides Voice Disorders, is to study Speech Science, in which we do look at vocal patterns, pitch, intonation, inflections, etc. There are patterns that can be identified for certain people, and it may go back more than one generation. For example, my mother was raised in the midwest and said the word "roof" differently from most people in California, where I was born, yet being around my mother, I picked up her pronunciation and would sometimes say [roof], like book-short u, instead of [ruf]- long u. People would ask where I was from because of that.
Gang wannabes, although they may adopt the lingo, don't usually also pay close enough attention to also mimic the pitch and other intonation changes. There is an actual identified speech pattern called "Black English". It has certain liguistic characteristics to it, such as reversing the sk in the word ask to become [aks], and simplifying the verb "to be", such as saying "I be black" instead of "I am black".
Hope this helps answer some of your questions...

LinasK, I never intended to put any words in your mouth. You asked what my concerns were and why I found it offensive. I just posed a bunch of questions as to why I don't think anyone can claim to KNOW the race of person by speech alone .... unless their name was "Henry Higgins".
:bang:

[Ladybass0711]

"accent" If I were you, I wouldn't make any more comments on the subject, you're just digging the hole deeper:twocents:

You know, it never amazes me, a comment that was not made to be racist, people take it that way! Never ceases to amaze me!

[Truly]

"accent" If I were you, I wouldn't make any more comments on the subject, you're just digging the hole deeper:twocents:

Yes, please, LB, please stop. You are betraying an attitude that you are apparently unaware of, and it just keeps getting worse. Please stop.

This is a discussion that sadly still needs to happen in this country. Maybe a thread somewhere else? This thread has way too much going on already, and your contribution to the topic at hand is valuable and appreciated. Thanks.

[Ladybass0711]

I Meant No Harm In It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOLY CRAP!

[Truly]

I Meant No Harm In It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is very clear, you meant no harm at all. Don't worry. Let's discuss all of that in another thread, ok? It is a very good conversation to have.

[Ladybass0711]

That is very clear, you meant no harm at all. Don't worry. Let's discuss all of that in another thread, ok? It is a very good conversation to have.


Fair enough! I just wanted to know if we feel police are following the wrong person for the "calls" I believe that SARAH is a real person!

[golfmom]

I Meant No Harm In It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know, LB, you explained and apologized. That's why I was all for letting it go.

If Rozita is guilty of making these calls, I would assume that she would wanted her voice to sound like a young girl within the FLDS, otherwise she wouldn't have been believed. Just because she's black or bi-racial doesn't mean she's incapable of making that call.

Rozita sounds like a nut to me. But, in all honesty I'd rather hang my hat on the idea of her making crank calls, than worry about a girl who may have been hidden or worse . . .

[biggirl]

I read an article in a link a few pages back about a "Teresa" who testified in the Jeffs trial and helped put him away. She escaped the Canadian cult and now her heavily financed "husband" is seeking full custody of her children, with her paying child support. (This is a punishment because she left the cult and testified against Jeffs)

She lives in the USA and barely makes enough to pay her rent, let alone fight the FDLS attorneys that have endless resources. I say, why aren't some of these Pro Bono attorneys that are very generously helping out in TX helping this poor woman that is trying to protect her children and show them a new life, with education and music and laughter.

I tell you it is breaking my heart to think of her worrying that that cult will take her children away! Can we help her? Someone needs to help her.

By the way, thank you Mollymalone for all the great links, you are great.:woohoo:

[Ladybass0711]

I know, LB, you explained and apologized. That's why I was all for letting it go.

If Rozita is guilty of making these calls, I would assume that she would wanted her voice to sound like a young girl within the FLDS, otherwise she wouldn't have been believed. Just because she's black or bi-racial doesn't mean she's incapable of making that call.

Rozita sounds like a nut to me. But, in all honesty I'd rather hang my hat on the idea of her making crank calls, than worry about a girl who may have been hidden or worse . . .

I understad, Like I said I was just trying to get an answer.


I don't condone what Rosarita did, however I feel that she will more then likely get a plea deal because she was pretty accurate on what she described. And it did save 400+ children from any more harm.

[Ladybass0711]

And so it begins..... sigh.......

http://www.krld.com/pages/2071943.php?contentType=4&contentId=1948553

Houston Rockets Game In Utah Protested Over Polygamist Compound Children

[Ladybass0711]

Polygamist call on tape. Listen to it here (http://cbs4denver.com/local/swinton.call.phone.2.708358.html) this is not the same voice as the one they played on Nancy grace, Sound like two different voices..

[golfmom]

Here's a link where she's being interviewed by LE:
http://www.krdo.com/global/story.asp?s=1343812&displayHelp=true&displayHelp=true

[SuziQ]

According to this article the phone number linked to Rozita was the same number traced to a call made to a crisis center in Texas before the raid even happened. So the likelyhood is great that her call led to the raid.

http://cbs4denver.com/local/swinton.polygamist.false.2.706769.html

An arrest warrant affidavit made public today shows that one phone number used to report alleged abuse at a polygamist retreat in Texas had been used previously by a Colorado woman.

The affidavit says a call was placed from that phone number to a crisis center in Texas before authorities there raided the retreat of a renegade Mormon sect and removed more than 400 children.

The affidavit shows that 33-year-old Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs used the same number previously, but it's not clear if authorities suspect Swinton of making calls that led to the raid.

[Linda7NJ]

Here's a link where she's being interviewed by LE:
http://www.krdo.com/global/story.asp?s=1343812&displayHelp=true&displayHelp=true


Okay...how did you get that great picture of your dogs on the bottom?

[golfmom]

Okay...how did you get that great picture of your dogs on the bottom?

1. go to user cp
2. select edit signature
3. right click on a photo you like and select "copy image location"
4. click the little yellow box with the mountains to insert a photo and paste the link in the pop up window.
5. preview your new signature
6. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: New signature picture!

[Truly]

May I ask a question along another train of thought?

Earlier, when we were discussing the finances of the FLDS, it was mentioned in an article that the compound in Texas had never filed for tax-exempt status as a 'church'. I am wondering if anyone knows how to find out if they are in fact listed as a church in any state (or nationally), or if they are a for-profit corporation, or just a private family, or what?

Does anyone know? TIA!

[Linda7NJ]

1. go to user cp
2. select edit signature
3. right click on a photo you like and select "copy image location"
4. click the little yellow box with the mountains to insert a photo and paste the link in the pop up window.
5. preview your new signature
6. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: New signature picture!


I can't use one I have stored on my computer? :confused: :waitasec:

[Floh]

According to this article the phone number linked to Rozita was the same number traced to a call made to a crisis center in Texas before the raid even happened. So the likelyhood is great that her call led to the raid.


Who in this day and age doesn't know L.E. can trace calls? as if. :rolleyes:

the idea anyone could be stupid enough to make a hoax call using a number associated with them and expect themselves not to be found out suggests they are lacking, somewhat, in the mental competency department. which must be so to make such a call in the first place, of course.

[Leila]

Carolyn Jessop talked about Merrill Jessops abuse and holding the children under water. She's not the only one from the FLDS who speaks of this.

http://www.childbrides.org/dakota_CCC_trial_will_set_precedent_for_years.html
Cora Fischer, who also grew up in the FLDS in Colorado City, Ariz., became a second wife at age 14. Her husband would discipline his children by holding them under water until they passed out. He once held the inside of his daughter’s arm against a light bulb until her skin melted, according to Fischer. To teach his daughters about sexuality he would demonstrate on himself.

When her husband’s first wife was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor, her doctor insisted she not have any more children, as that would rob her of precious life resources. However, because polygamist women are supposed to have a child a year, she was not given that choice. Instead, she gave birth to three more babies — the last while she lay unconscious, as her life ebbed out of her and she died.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the horrific practices of the FLDS and the fact that they consider themselves a religious group. :mad:

[FlowerChild]

OK, I wish everyone would please stop with the whole "sounds like" or not thing. It either SOUNDS LIKE the woman accused or not - and we aren't going to find that answer HERE! It doesn't MATTER, the courts have already said the children were removed because of what they observed after paying a visit to try and locate "Sarah". They were on the property to CHECK OUT a complaint and found other problems...for which they got a 2nd COURT ORDER. THE END!

There were almost 50 underage pregnant girls and underage mothers with a child or children at the YFZ Ranch ALONE. There are no doubt MORE of them elsewhere - and we still have NO PROOF which children at the YFZ Ranch BELONG biologically to which MOTHERS OR FATHERS (if they belong to ANY of the adults). THIS IS A PROBLEM! Adult MEN are having sex with CHILDREN (teenagers) and impregnating them - almost 50 that WE KNOW OF. I do not see how WE or CPS can ignore that FACT and suggest it doesn't matter and should just be put aside for the benefit of the "Group" their religion or their beliefs/lifestyle. This many underage mothers in a group of say 600 (462 of which are CHLDREN under 18) people is not a "fluke" or a misunderstanding - nor did this occur because of ignorance of human reproduction or because the real age of the girls was unknown. BEFORE these girls were impregnated every single one of them was sealed in plural celestial marriage inside that "temple" with the bed inside to a MAN - AN ADULT MAN. And we KNOW that a sex act DID OCCUR - because they become pregnant. HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion".

It should NEVER be acceptable to hide SEX CRIMES behind a smokescreen of God or faith - and that's what the FLDS would LIKE us all to do - just look the other way and allow them to go about their lives and continue teaching young girls to "be sweet" and obey their fathers and husbands so they can all get into heaven.

If THAT'S really heaven, I'll just have to pass.

My Opinion

[golfmom]

I can't use one I have stored on my computer? :confused: :waitasec:

Just load it on photobucket. You can get a free account there to host your pictures. That's what I did.

[Leila]

I believe they are already in state custody. But there was the original 18-20 that were underage and pregnant. And now they were able to locate 25 more pregnant, underage teens.

Are these the women who at first lied about their age and said they were 18 or 19, who later admitted they were under 18? Or are there more on top of those?

[golfmom]

May I ask a question along another train of thought?

Earlier, when we were discussing the finances of the FLDS, it was mentioned in an article that the compound in Texas had never filed for tax-exempt status as a 'church'. I am wondering if anyone knows how to find out if they are in fact listed as a church in any state (or nationally), or if they are a for-profit corporation, or just a private family, or what?

Does anyone know? TIA!

I'll poke around a bit to see if I can find out if they have non-profit status. I know that the UEP trust fund has in excess of $100M.

[golfmom]

Are these the women who at first lied about their age and said they were 18 or 19, who later admitted they were under 18? Or are there more on top of those?

Since the number of children in custody rose, I would have to assume that the 25 that they just determined pregnant or with babies under 18 are ADDED to the original group of pregnant and/or mothers that were identified initially.

[mollymalone]

I read an article in a link a few pages back about a "Teresa" who testified in the Jeffs trial and helped put him away. She escaped the Canadian cult and now her heavily financed "husband" is seeking full custody of her children, with her paying child support. (This is a punishment because she left the cult and testified against Jeffs)

She lives in the USA and barely makes enough to pay her rent, let alone fight the FDLS attorneys that have endless resources. I say, why aren't some of these Pro Bono attorneys that are very generously helping out in TX helping this poor woman that is trying to protect her children and show them a new life, with education and music and laughter.

I tell you it is breaking my heart to think of her worrying that that cult will take her children away! Can we help her? Someone needs to help her.

By the way, thank you Mollymalone for all the great links, you are great.:woohoo:Thanks :)
http://www.childbrides.org/Teresa_Wall_Blackmore_fundraiser.html
HOPE Organization is helping her raise money for this child custody battle.
Information is inlcuded on how to help.

[Leila]

Journalist on CNN quoted the "When Men become Gods" author. "The author does believe there is or was a birthing center on that ranch and that could be why there were no birth certificates. There was so much inbreeding and incest, a lot of babies died early. Outside of Jeff's log cabin ..."

*Molly says (I don't know whether this is in reference to Jeff's house in Colorado City)*

"there was an actual graveyard of the babies who had died shortly after childbirth, from an illness they get from inbreeding."

The first thing I though of when reading your post...........I wonder if those poor babies just died, or did they have help dying.

[golfmom]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.

In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.

The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant.

Whatever the taxman’s viewpoint, an expert on Mormon splinter groups considers FLDS a church.

................
A constitutional law professor agreed FLDS is a church.

But Douglas Laycock of the University of Michigan didn’t think FLDS’s status as a church would make any difference in court or in determining whether the raid on the sect in Schleicher County was lawful.

“If there’s probable cause, the government can search churches like anyplace else,” Laycock said.

[mollymalone]

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the horrific practices of the FLDS and the fact that they consider themselves a religious group. :mad:You know, before Jeffs took over, these people were allowed to worship in a church. When he came along he denied them this right while holding them to his edicts. They've never sought exempt status etc.. and with the teachings he's been preaching about, I'm having a hard time considering their beliefs a religion. It's more like hate speech to me. He hates his followers and denies them their human rights under our constititution. He hates African Americans and gays and the rest of us. That's not religious beliefs in my book, it's pure racism.

There's been several articles I've read by former members who stated that in the decade before he took over he taped the "confessions" that were supposed to be private between them and their "prophet" and has been using them to black mail them with to get money or their cooperation. They and I believe this is why a lot more of them who would like to leave haven't. Even with Jeffs in jail, this is being used to manipulate many of them imo.

Edited to add: any group of people who condone the widespread abuse of children, that say you can "do anything short of murder" to them, are not a religion in my eyes.

[LinasK]

I don't care what your master degree is in!

Ebonics isn't spoken by all blacks and to imply it is, is ridiculous!!!

Once again, I never said that. That's something you and Golfmom implied, that never came from me.

[mollymalone]

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.

In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.

The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant.

Whatever the taxman’s viewpoint, an expert on Mormon splinter groups considers FLDS a church.

................
A constitutional law professor agreed FLDS is a church.

But Douglas Laycock of the University of Michigan didn’t think FLDS’s status as a church would make any difference in court or in determining whether the raid on the sect in Schleicher County was lawful.

“If there’s probable cause, the government can search churches like anyplace else,” Laycock said.They may have in the beginning started out as a church, but their practices over time have turned them into a cult IMO and there are experts who agree with that viewpoint.

[Truly]

I'll poke around a bit to see if I can find out if they have non-profit status. I know that the UEP trust fund has in excess of $100M.

Thanks! I also know that people can be 'certified' (I don't know the correct term) to perform marriages, etc. Is there some kind of state agency which grants 'licenses' (again, I'm not sure of the correct word) to groups or individuals who wish to become a church, in addition to the non-profit status for tax-exemption purposes?

I am just curious if the FLDS is actually a 'church' at all?

[mollymalone]

The first thing I though of when reading your post...........I wonder if those poor babies just died, or did they have help dying.That's my thought too. How many died in childbirth and how many were helped along right afterwards or later.

[LinasK]

Sorry, but I feel your comments are stereotypical. Of course, there is/was Black English, but this is more of a class idea. There are many well educated Black persons who speak perfect English, and I would bet you would not be able to identify their race. You don't necessarily find educated Blacks using "I be..."

I have a friend who adopted a Black daughter, and she speaks just like her brothers and sisters. Speech is not a racial thing.

You, like the other two posters have missed my point. I have never said that it was solely based on Black English or Ebonics alone, that is just one factor and I never said that all blacks speak that way. But there are distinctive speech patterns and factors like pitch. Believe me, I could tell if Barack Obama called me vs. another white male or black male.

[mollymalone]

Thanks! I also know that people can be 'certified' (I don't know the correct term) to perform marriages, etc. Is there some kind of state agency which grants 'licenses' (again, I'm not sure of the correct word) to groups or individuals who wish to become a church, in addition to the non-profit status for tax-exemption purposes?

I am just curious if the FLDS is actually a 'church' at all?That's a great point! Who's performing the "legal" marriages of that sect?? If it's someone like Jeffs, does he have a license to perform them?

[golfmom]

Once again, I never said that. That's something you and Golfmom implied, that never came from me.

You ASKED me what my concerns were. I replied by posing questions as to why I don't think that it's universally possible for race to be determined by speech alone. I NEVER implied YOU said ANYTHING. I NEVER attributed any of the questions or concerns I had to YOU personally.

Now you've come back on and IMPLIED that's exactly what I did.

[Leila]

According to this article the phone number linked to Rozita was the same number traced to a call made to a crisis center in Texas before the raid even happened. So the likelyhood is great that her call led to the raid.

http://cbs4denver.com/local/swinton.polygamist.false.2.706769.html

An arrest warrant affidavit made public today shows that one phone number used to report alleged abuse at a polygamist retreat in Texas had been used previously by a Colorado woman.

The affidavit says a call was placed from that phone number to a crisis center in Texas before authorities there raided the retreat of a renegade Mormon sect and removed more than 400 children.

The affidavit shows that 33-year-old Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs used the same number previously, but it's not clear if authorities suspect Swinton of making calls that led to the raid.

This is scary! The Texas police really NEED to know if Rozita made that call. If she made the call, then that settles the matter. But if she didn't make the call..........that means there is a young girl out there that may be in harms way.

[believe09]

May I ask a question along another train of thought?

Earlier, when we were discussing the finances of the FLDS, it was mentioned in an article that the compound in Texas had never filed for tax-exempt status as a 'church'. I am wondering if anyone knows how to find out if they are in fact listed as a church in any state (or nationally), or if they are a for-profit corporation, or just a private family, or what?

Does anyone know? TIA!


I thought they were for profit-didn't something come out about Jeffs holding government contracts with his factory??

[LinasK]

You know, it never amazes me, a comment that was not made to be racist, people take it that way! Never ceases to amaze me!

That's okay, Ladybass, I am not the only poster here who knew what you meant. Your whole point of the question was to try and determine if the initial caller was Rozita Swinton- a black woman, or Sarah Barlow, a white girl. I still think that race can sometimes be determined by voice characteristics alone. That is not being racist.:blowkiss:

[golfmom]

The thing about non-profits is that they can be well hidden. You need to know the exact name and location to track them.

[golfmom]

That's okay, Ladybass, I am not the only poster here who knew what you meant. Your whole point of the question was to try and determine if the initial caller was Rozita Swinton- a black woman, or Sarah Barlow, a white girl. I still think that race can sometimes be determined by voice characteristics alone. That is not being racist.:blowkiss:

Sometimes is a big difference from always, and that's really what I was disputing.

[LinasK]

You ASKED me what my concerns were. I replied by posing questions as to why I don't think that it's universally possible for race to be determined by speech alone. I NEVER implied YOU said ANYTHING. I NEVER attributed any of the questions or concerns I had to YOU personally.

Now you've come back on and IMPLIED that's exactly what I did.

Okay, then I stand corrected in your case, but that's exactly what LindaNJ7 and Trino did!

[Truly]

That's a great point! Who's performing the "legal" marriages of that sect?? If it's someone like Jeffs, does he have a license to perform them?

And in order to obtain a license, does the applicant agree to abide by the laws of the State of Texas, i.e., not to marry dozens of underage girls to one old man?

[mollymalone]

Some of the women are as entrenched in this lifestyle as the men, unless this was an attempt to get brownie points. He had umpteen wives and she wants to sacrifice her own child to him. Sad.

http://www.kcpw.org/article/1618

"In fact we've been able to intercept an email communication from a loyal follower claiming that their 'beloved prophet, their angel in Christ,' in their words, is being persecuted unfairly," reports Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. "One woman said she'd still love to have her daughter marry him and they [FLDS members] need to stand in support of him in this persecution."

[mollymalone]

And in order to obtain a license, does the applicant agree to abide by the laws of the State of Texas, i.e., not to marry dozens of underage girls to one old man?That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

[LinasK]

Fair enough! I just wanted to know if we feel police are following the wrong person for the "calls" I believe that SARAH is a real person!

I do too and think they should keep looking for her, because the FLDS may have her hidden away or have killed her. I think Rozita Swinton just injected herself into this case much like Mark Karr did in the JonBenet Ramsey case and had everyone believing he was the killer.:doh:

[golfmom]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.

In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.

The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant.

Whatever the taxman’s viewpoint, an expert on Mormon splinter groups considers FLDS a church.

................
A constitutional law professor agreed FLDS is a church.

But Douglas Laycock of the University of Michigan didn’t think FLDS’s status as a church would make any difference in court or in determining whether the raid on the sect in Schleicher County was lawful.

“If there’s probable cause, the government can search churches like anyplace else,” Laycock said.

[golfmom]

That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

Just posing the question here, but why exactly do they need a marriage license. They view their marriages sanctioned by their prophet. Why would they care what the state says? There's more reasons for them not to get marriage licenses than not.

[Trino]

Okay, then I stand corrected in your case, but that's exactly what LindaNJ7 and Trino did!

Back to the case. It's fairly obviously that RS, although Black, had the hot line fooled. RS most likely did not speak Black English.

[Seven]

"there was an actual graveyard of the babies who had died shortly after childbirth, from an illness they get from inbreeding."

I heard about this earlier this week. It's a birth defect that results from a recessive gene on the first chromosome known as "fumarase deficiency." It's deficiency of the protein needed to convert nutrition in to nourishment, and it's effects can be devastating.

"In the 1930s, two families, the Jessops and the Barlows, settled the area around Hildale, Utah, along the border with Arizona, where they founded the FDLS — and began handing down to their descendants a recessive gene for a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency. The birth defect has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist, now retired but formerly with the Children's Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix. He saw his first case when an FLDS mother brought her severely retarded son to see him. Tarby asked the mother whether any of her other children had problems, and she mentioned a daughter with cerebral palsy — testing proved that she, too, had Fumarase Deficiency syndrome.

The birth defect — an enzyme deficiency — causes severe mental retardation, epilepsy and disfigurement of features. "The retardation is in the severe range — an IQ around 25," Dr. Tarby says. Afflicted children are missing portions of their brain, often cannot sit or stand, and suffer grand mal seizures and encephalitis. Language skills are nonexistent or minimal."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1732498,00.html

Sad.

[Truly]

I thought they were for profit-didn't something come out about Jeffs holding government contracts with his factory??


Polygamist sect gets millions from U.S. Government in loans, contracts
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1354729 (http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1354729)

The firms were owned by members, and all of the proceeds were funnelled into the pockets of the leaders of the cult. I do not know if the FLDS operated their massive empire directly or not. They had their own concrete plant in Texas, and they had applied to operate as their own water treatment plant. I'd love to see those documents.

[southcitymom]

...... HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion"......

Who's saying this? Is anyone?

[mollymalone]

Just posing the question here, but why exactly do they need a marriage license. They view their marriages sanctioned by their prophet. Why would they care what the state says? There's more reasons for them not to get marriage licenses than not.Good question!! Perhaps so that their legal male children could inherit and there'd be no questions? The only ones seeming to have birth certificates seem to be those who were "legally" married to one of those high ranking within the sect.

[mysteriew]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.

[LinasK]

OK, I wish everyone would please stop with the whole "sounds like" or not thing. It either SOUNDS LIKE the woman accused or not - and we aren't going to find that answer HERE! It doesn't MATTER, the courts have already said the children were removed because of what they observed after paying a visit to try and locate "Sarah". They were on the property to CHECK OUT a complaint and found other problems...for which they got a 2nd COURT ORDER. THE END!

There were almost 50 underage pregnant girls and underage mothers with a child or children at the YFZ Ranch ALONE. There are no doubt MORE of them elsewhere - and we still have NO PROOF which children at the YFZ Ranch BELONG biologically to which MOTHERS OR FATHERS (if they belong to ANY of the adults). THIS IS A PROBLEM! Adult MEN are having sex with CHILDREN (teenagers) and impregnating them - almost 50 that WE KNOW OF. I do not see how WE or CPS can ignore that FACT and suggest it doesn't matter and should just be put aside for the benefit of the "Group" their religion or their beliefs/lifestyle. This many underage mothers in a group of say 600 (462 of which are CHLDREN under 18) people is not a "fluke" or a misunderstanding - nor did this occur because of ignorance of human reproduction or because the real age of the girls was unknown. BEFORE these girls were impregnated every single one of them was sealed in plural celestial marriage inside that "temple" with the bed inside to a MAN - AN ADULT MAN. And we KNOW that a sex act DID OCCUR - because they become pregnant. HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion".

It should NEVER be acceptable to hide SEX CRIMES behind a smokescreen of God or faith - and that's what the FLDS would LIKE us all to do - just look the other way and allow them to go about their lives and continue teaching young girls to "be sweet" and obey their fathers and husbands so they can all get into heaven.

If THAT'S really heaven, I'll just have to pass.

My Opinion

FlowerChild, unlike the ANS forum, in this case I am in total agreement with you.

[mysteriew]

Good question!! Perhaps so that their legal male children could inherit and there'd be no questions? The only ones seeming to have birth certificates seem to be those who were "legally" married to one of those high ranking within the sect.

What can they inherit? They don't 'own', everything they have or receive is 'owned' by the church- including their wives and children.

[SewingDeb]

Who's saying this? Is anyone?

Lots of people on the internet are saying it is religious persecution and they should have been left alone.

[mollymalone]

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.The contracts were not awarded to the flds church but to individual businesses. Those were owned by people who were/are FLDS members. The contracts are awarded according to bid, not based on your religious affiliation. I'm sure that now they're aware of the fact that the money gets funneled to the flds leaders who make up the "church" then there might be a review of how the contracts funds are being used. The companies may no longer be approved for contracts, but in reality the defense dept. cannot discriminated based on religion.

[Truly]

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.

The contracts were actually with businesses owned by FLDS members, who would then hand the money to the cult leaders. Western Precision (renamed NewEra Manufacturing) had 1.1 million in defense contracts between 2003-2007!

[mollymalone]

What can they inherit? They don't 'own', everything they have or receive is 'owned' by the church- including their wives and children.Right, but people like Warren Jeffs and his "leaders" I believe would have tucked away money for themselves outside of the communal funds. Inherit the "priesthood" or seats on councils etc.. is more what I was thinking of.

[mollymalone]

On the contracts - since information is coming to light that the use of underage boys were used in violation of child labor laws I would suspect that those contracts would be in review and those companies fined. I'm not sure whether they could place them on a list stating that these companies should not be awarded contracts based on this or that the monies go to support what the Southern Law Poverty center has deemed a "hate group."

[southcitymom]

Lots of people on the internet are saying it is religious persecution and they should have been left alone.

Do you mind telling me where?

ETA - Nevermind, I'll go find!

[mysteriew]

Right, but people like Warren Jeffs and his "leaders" I believe would have tucked away money for themselves outside of the communal funds. Inherit the "priesthood" or seats on councils etc.. is more what I was thinking of.

I hadn't considered that. Like the children of wives 2 through whatever couldn't ever become a leader. But why make even the first a legal marriage? After all, they don't recognize the state's statutes on marriage anyway. The fact that their 'prophet' approved the marriage, and sealed them seems to be all the FLDS considers important. So why make the first marriage a legal, state recognized marriage? If it wasn't state sanctioned, wouldn't the FLDS still recognize it and give the same considerations? As far as inheritance goes, the 'first wife' would still be recognized as such within the community.

[FlowerChild]

That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just in a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "temple" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

[Ladybass0711]

Originally Posted by FlowerChild http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2165628#post2165628)
OK, I wish everyone would please stop with the whole "sounds like" or not thing. It either SOUNDS LIKE the woman accused or not - and we aren't going to find that answer HERE! It doesn't MATTER, the courts have already said the children were removed because of what they observed after paying a visit to try and locate "Sarah". They were on the property to CHECK OUT a complaint and found other problems...for which they got a 2nd COURT ORDER. THE END!

There were almost 50 underage pregnant girls and underage mothers with a child or children at the YFZ Ranch ALONE. There are no doubt MORE of them elsewhere - and we still have NO PROOF which children at the YFZ Ranch BELONG biologically to which MOTHERS OR FATHERS (if they belong to ANY of the adults). THIS IS A PROBLEM! Adult MEN are having sex with CHILDREN (teenagers) and impregnating them - almost 50 that WE KNOW OF. I do not see how WE or CPS can ignore that FACT and suggest it doesn't matter and should just be put aside for the benefit of the "Group" their religion or their beliefs/lifestyle. This many underage mothers in a group of say 600 (462 of which are CHLDREN under 18) people is not a "fluke" or a misunderstanding - nor did this occur because of ignorance of human reproduction or because the real age of the girls was unknown. BEFORE these girls were impregnated every single one of them was sealed in plural celestial marriage inside that "temple" with the bed inside to a MAN - AN ADULT MAN. And we KNOW that a sex act DID OCCUR - because they become pregnant. HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion".

It should NEVER be acceptable to hide SEX CRIMES behind a smokescreen of God or faith - and that's what the FLDS would LIKE us all to do - just look the other way and allow them to go about their lives and continue teaching young girls to "be sweet" and obey their fathers and husbands so they can all get into heaven.

If THAT'S really heaven, I'll just have to pass.

My Opinion


Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you it is NEVER acceptable. What I was trying to figure out is whether the authorities are going to take the wrong road out of this! I just hope that they are looking for sarah and not just simply relying and assuming that it was a hoax call. I am certainly not saying anything about the way the search warrents were handled. I fully agree with what law enforcement and CPS have done. I just don't want the authorities to give up on locating sarah, in case she really is out there and in trouble.

[mollymalone]

I hadn't considered that. Like the children of wives 2 through whatever couldn't ever become a leader. But why make even the first a legal marriage? After all, they don't recognize the state's statutes on marriage anyway. The fact that their 'prophet' approved the marriage, and sealed them seems to be all the FLDS considers important. So why make the first marriage a legal, state recognized marriage? If it wasn't state sanctioned, wouldn't the FLDS still recognize it and give the same considerations? As far as inheritance goes, the 'first wife' would still be recognized as such within the community.:waitasec: I would think they would, but it seems the first one is done legally for some reason. Could it be because before the Flds split from the Mormon church that it was done that way? Or did they ditch that along with the other teachings they didn't agree with?

[mollymalone]

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just lin a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "tempe" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My OpinionYes, I understand, that's in regards to the other wives, (and they do seal the first wife also right?) we're wondering about the "legal" marriage to the first wives. Our question is, if they don't follow or believe in our laws, why would they have a "legal" first wife? Why not marry her spiritually like they do the others? And who would perform the "legal" marriage?

[southcitymom]

Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you it is NEVER acceptable. What I was trying to figure out is whether the authorities are going to take the wrong road out of this! I just hope that they are looking for sarah and not just simply relying and assuming that it was a hoax call. I am certainly not saying anything about the way the search warrents were handled. I fully agree with what law enforcement and CPS have done. I just don't want the authorities to give up on locating sarah, in case she really is out there and in trouble.

They might have taken the wrong road in, Ladybass. I'm interested about the hearing next Tuesday regarding the lengthy Motion questioning a number of facts surrounding the warrants. Some real mistakes may have been made. If this is the case, any hope that possible child molesters will be punished declines.

[Ladybass0711]

Merrill Jessop has hired an attorny

http://myeldorado.net/

[mollymalone]

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/003469.html
According to a study sponsored by the American Academy of Arts and Science, communities organized around the fundamentalist agenda have five defining characteristics:

There is one set of rules and every human being must be subject to those rules. In FLDS that man is Warren Jeffs.

Men are the rightful rulers and women are totally subservient to them. Women are defined as obedient wives, homemakers and mothers.

Fundamentalists control education and define what will be taught because there is only one right way to think.
Fundamentalists hate the modern world and aspire to a golden age, one that never existed.

**Warren Jeffs sister Elaine stated that she thinks this is what Warren is trying to attain... a perfect people.**

Several of the scholars observed a strong and deep resemblance between fundamentalism and fascism. Both have almost identical agendas. Men are on top, women are subservient, there is one rigid set of rules, with police and military might to enforce them, and education is tightly controlled by the state. One scholar suggested that it's helpful to understand fundamentalism as religious fascism, and fascism as political fundamentalism. The phrase “overcoming the modern” is a fascist slogan dating back to at least 1941.

Finally, fundamentalists are disconnected from reality and unable to examine their own history in an objective or non-mythical manner.

[Truly]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

Yes, thank you, I remember reading that article. So it seems as if it is a matter of personal opinion whether to call them a church or not. If they are on file as a non profit hidden under another name, then maybe we should be calling them the 'Allred Construction Company Church', as that is who showed up in Texas to purchase the YFZ property. I wonder whose name is on the deed. That is open public record.

[Fairy1]

Do you mind telling me where?

ETA - Nevermind, I'll go find!

I've seen plenty of this opinion in the news also. I feel quite certain the FLDS is banking on this sentiment to get LE and CPS to leave them alone. This is what worries me - along with the sheer magnitude of the situation. I completely understand the concern people have with regard to the well-being of the children now in state custody. Truth be told, CPS all over the US leaves something to be desired. With that said, let's please give the state and people of TX a chance to do the right thing. No one wants to see children "torn" away from their families. But the truth is, there is strong evidence that these children are abused is some manner. None of us should be willing to stand by and allow it to continue. I'm not going to subscribe to the philosophy that the "devil you know is better than the devil you don't know" or however the saying goes. This case is unique and I'm confident that it will require a lot of thinking outside of the box. I personally do not care from whom the phone call that began this investigation originated. And I do not believe it will matter in the end. The FLDS needs to be stopped - and the sooner the better.

As an aside (sort of), can we PLEASE drop this racial discussion? This case is complicated enough and the whole black/white thing is an unnecessary distraction and totally off-topic. :)

[galvino]

Molly-

You have provided GREAT links on here- I have been reading and researching fast & furiously- so much so that my head is spinning. Between all of the intermarriage and subterfuge, financial issues and history, I need a flowchart to keep even a portion of all this straight. I have ordered several books from Amazon now. I wonder if any Universities in the US teach about this cult/'religion' in their curriculum (sp?)? They would have to devote many semesters on them- in all areas (psych/religion/poly-sci etc, ad nauseum).

Funny how in school I groaned about having to spend alot of time researching- now I'm like a kid in a candy store and I want to find out everything I can! I hope I am not the only one, b/c even tho there have been a small minority of folks who have spoken out about this sect, I venture to guess it has fallen on deaf ears for the most part, unless the listeners were being directly affected, or were regionally interested.

I Pray, Pray, Pray that those who aren't directly affected by this nightmare will (because of the scale of this latest debacle) will not allow this to be swept under the rug again.


Did you read the 2nd post (by Joseph) under that last link you provided? Very Interestink!

[LinasK]

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/003469.html
According to a study sponsored by the American Academy of Arts and Science, communities organized around the fundamentalist agenda have five defining characteristics:

There is one set of rules and every human being must be subject to those rules. In FLDS that man is Warren Jeffs.

Men are the rightful rulers and women are totally subservient to them. Women are defined as obedient wives, homemakers and mothers.

Fundamentalists control education and define what will be taught because there is only one right way to think.
Fundamentalists hate the modern world and aspire to a golden age, one that never existed.

**Warren Jeffs sister Elaine stated that she thinks this is what Warren is trying to attain... a perfect people.**

Several of the scholars observed a strong and deep resemblance between fundamentalism and fascism. Both have almost identical agendas. Men are on top, women are subservient, there is one rigid set of rules, with police and military might to enforce them, and education is tightly controlled by the state. One scholar suggested that it's helpful to understand fundamentalism as religious fascism, and fascism as political fundamentalism. The phrase “overcoming the modern” is a fascist slogan dating back to at least 1941.

Finally, fundamentalists are disconnected from reality and unable to examine their own history in an objective or non-mythical manner.

That's what the phrase "Keep Sweet" really means=obedience!

[galvino]

Oops-

The comment by Joseph was in Molly's next to last post- It took me too long to type with my broken wrist and she was too fast for me!

[mollymalone]

Merrill Jessop has hired an attorny

http://myeldorado.net/Despite the fact that criminal charges haven't been filed against him. He's hired a "criminal defense attorney."

[southcitymom]

I've seen plenty of this opinion in the news also. I feel quite certain the FLDS is banking on this sentiment to get LE and CPS to leave them alone. This is what worries me - along with the sheer magnitude of the situation....

I have found some support of the FLDS rights, but no one saying we should allow children to be abused in the name of those rights!

I am glad for it honestly (people speaking up for the FLDS). It helps keep the scales balanced and gives people in a position of great authority over the personal lives of others added incentive to "do right." The FLDS may not be enjoying much freedom right now, but thank goodness some of us still are.

[Fairy1]

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just in a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "temple" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

On the face of it FC, that is true. However, it's been stated here that the state of Texas recognizes "common law" marriages. If, in fact, the plural marriages are considered to be legal, perhaps TX can charge these folks with polygomy....

[mysteriew]

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just in a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "temple" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

LOL, that is part of the problem. Those marriages are recognized in the State of Texas. Texas recognizes common law marriages. So if a man is married legally to the first wife and spiritually to wives 2 through whatever- he could be considered to have committed bigamy with all wives over first wife. The Texas laws regarding common law marriage have been posted several times in these threads.

I have a friend who lives in Texas. He lived with a girlfriend for several years, then they split. They never married. She filed for divorce so that she could lay claim to some property he owned (he said he didn't recognize them as married, but she did). The court did uphold the marriage and issue a divorce and a property settlement, under the common law marriage statutes.

[mollymalone]

Oops-

The comment by Joseph was in Molly's next to last post- It took me too long to type with my broken wrist and she was too fast for me!Broken wrist and you're typing?? :chicken: (LOL I would be too, one finger at a time if I had to!) I read the article I don't always read the comments below them.

[mollymalone]

As FLDS members, the children are taught that since the outsiders are evil, it's OK to lie to them to protect the Lord, their prophet and their fathers.

This is why the children and young women have been changing their names etc.. they're following the edict to protect by lying those who abuse them.

[Ca-Sun]

Despite the fact that criminal charges haven't been filed against him. He's hired a "criminal defense attorney."Don't you find it very telling that the attorney Jessop hired is a criminal attorney, and has been spending 2 - 3 days a week with him? Makes ya go, "Hmmmmmm....."

[galvino]

Yeah Moll- I can't stop! Thank God the cast is off and my physical torture therapist told me typing will help! Just in time for this case to break wide open- Yipee!

The comment was from a man (maybe Lost Boy) who left the sect and is about Warren's hold over his family and others.

[Ladybass0711]

Last of the FLDS kids removed from the coliseum, FLDS spokesman lashes out



At a news conference Friday afternoon, a spokesman for the FLDS Church attacked the state's CPS over claims of how many pregnant minors were in custody and the conditions in which all the children were housed.

The spokesman said he knew of only two pregnant teenagers who were in state protective custody.
Rod Parker said they would be sending letters to all of the government agencies involved, demanding that all evidence be preserved for future use in lawsuits. Asked what type of lawsuit was being planned, Parker would only say, "civil rights litigation."

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273793,00.html