Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Trino]

What a dictator huh????
All his wives will be looking at the neighbor men!!! LOL Serve the self centered azz right.

Don't you mean the neighbor men will be looking at Jeffs' women?

[cheko1]

Don't you mean the neighbor men will be looking at Jeffs' women?

Yes thats what I REALLY meant!

Warren probably locked them all up in chastity belts before he went to prison & the only key is in his manilla envelope!

[golfmom]

What a dictator huh????
All his wives will be looking at the neighbor men!!! LOL Serve the self centered azz right.

I'm still trying to recover from the shock that many of his wives were actually his "aunties" (i.e., his father's wives / his mothers).

[golfmom]

I stumbled upon the photos of Jeffs in his shorts and one if his mothers who turned into a wife in her levis.

http://www.childbrides.org/images/resized_Warren_caught_wearing_shorts.jpg http://www.childbrides.org/images/Naomi_Jeffs_in_jeans.jpg

[SewingDeb]

Texas appeals court cancels hearing on relocation of FLDS children

A Texas appellate court has canceled a hearing set for Tuesday that sought to challenge a district judge's decision to send children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch to group and foster homes throughout the state.
The Third Court of Appeals said Friday that Tom Green County Judge Barbara Walther's order to move the FLDS children beyond a five-county area met statutory requirements.
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9060445

From your link:

The court left intact a second petition filed by the legal aid society that argues the judge did not have sufficient evidence or hold proper hearings before deciding to keep the children in custody.

[Trino]

Golfmom, although it might be hard to see in the photo, it appears her hair isn't done in the correct style.

[SewingDeb]

Golfmom, although it might be hard to see in the photo, it appears her hair isn't done in the correct style.

She was on vacation...lol.

[southcitymom]

excellent article by the New York Times....very frank as to CPS, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26raid.html?ex=1366862400&en=79123a7d4e41a7a8&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Terrific article - thanks for posting.

[cheko1]

She was on vacation...lol.

Looks to me like they both were living the high life....they should post these pictures in the middle of the "TEMPLE"....he has kicked young guys out of the ranch for rolling there sleeves up. Yet he has the nerve to show LEGS!!!!!!!

She is allowed to wear JEANS & blouse. While the other gals wear long johns & the ugliest dresses on the planet, along with the hair dos. Wonder if it would cause a uprising????

Or would they be told to be SWEET!

[believe09]

I did a snip of this article because it specifically addresses the concerns raised on the board as to whether or not children were being harmed in ways beyond the "teen bride" issue:

"CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.
Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities."

At this point only infants who are still nursing are allowed to be with their mothers. So the state, which has a low threshold for removal according to the law sources I have been reading, has swept up and disrupted 400+ children for the now 10% or so (my number) who have been determined to be at risk. Hmmm...

Here is the link to the ap article...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080426/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AnNgOtBth2R9LSLbm41m27dvzw cF

[golfmom]

Golfmom, although it might be hard to see in the photo, it appears her hair isn't done in the correct style.

do you think she has her special underwear on?

[mollymalone]

Re: the Pentagon Contract-background checks are done on the companies and those running the company, but if there are no reports of criminal activity by the company or the persons, then their bid can be considered.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33510.html
"A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business, according to online databases that track federal government appropriations.
NewEra, previously known as Western Precision Inc. and located in Hildale, Utah, also received a $900,000 loan in 2005 from the federal Small Business Administration, the data show."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html
The companies have not been charged with wrongdoing. Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell emphasized that point. "The Department of Defense awards contracts on the basis of who can most effectively meet our requirements for supplies or services at the most reasonable cost to the taxpayer," he said. "We do not consider religious affiliation or marital status when selecting vendors, but illegal activity is certainly cause for termination of a contract and perhaps even debarment, which could prevent a contractor from doing business with department ever again." He added, "However, DoD is not aware of any criminal allegations against anyone managing the companies in question."

Bob Maginnis, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who now works with a contractor for the Pentagon, said the department does background checks before signing contracts. "The DoD is obviously abiding by the law, and if we want them to look deeper and discriminate on religious or other activities we need to tell them." But he added, "If there was a direct line between Jeffs and this company, and his name was associated with a contract, then that should have come to attention of those that were bidding contract." It's unclear whether Jeffs' name was on any contract, but other senior members of his church were managing the companies.

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/9827
"The president of Western Precision was Wendell Nielsen, described in multiple media accounts as a senior official in the FLDS religious sect" "Neilsen disappeared with church leader Warren Jeffs after Jeffs was put on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list in 2003" "The records show that Western Precision continued to receive government contracts even after the well-publicized manhunt. And when Jeffs was captured in 2006, he was riding in an SUV registered to John C. Wayman, another Western Precision executive.""In an affidavit filed by Wendell Nielsen's son in a church-related court case, Western Precision gave the church up to $100,000 a month, a testament to the close ties between the manufacturing firm and the church itself."

[Trino]

do you think she has her special underwear on?

Yes - from Victoria's Secret.

[FlowerChild]

I did a snip of this article because it specifically addresses the concerns raised on the board as to whether or not children were being harmed in ways beyond the "teen bride" issue:

"CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.
Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities."

At this point only infants who are still nursing are allowed to be with their mothers. So the state, which has a low threshold for removal according to the law sources I have been reading, has swept up and disrupted 400+ children for the now 10% or so (my number) who have been determined to be at risk. Hmmm...

Here is the link to the ap article...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080426/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AnNgOtBth2R9LSLbm41m27dvzw cF

I don't think they have had time to determine the abuses beyond the obvious. They just got the children separated from the FLDS Moms recently and those kids aren't going to "open up" and talk right away. Kids which have endured HORRID abuse often are reluctant to "tell" and they haven't been raised from birth to accept it and "be sweet". The lawyers can't KNOW what abuses will be discovered as the children are interviewed. The kids don't know it's abuse for Daddy to waterboard the baby when it cries.

And I understand separating the little children from their older "siblings"....if the kids are actually siblings at all. The older kids are much better "trained" and can manipulate the younger ones in a setting where they live together. I can see the FLDS expecting the older girls to continue "training" the younger children, preventing investigators from getting factual information from the smaller children about abuses and "lifestyle". I know the 8-14 year old girls themselves probably have been abused, but they are also indoctrinated in the FLDS way and may see this as their chance to "marry the prophet" if they do well at controlling the little ones and the other girls. Girls are considered "mature" at AGE 8 in the FLDS World - so putting a dozen little ones in the same home with a "sweet" 12 year old would be like putting an FLDS MOM in the shelter WITH the children 24/7.

THE USUAL LOGIC AND RULES DO NOT APPLY HERE! In most cases a 12 year old girl would NOT be housed away from her siblings unless SHE was an alleged abuser herself - but in this case - she MAY BE an abuser without intent - by her acceptance of and belief in the abuse taught and encouraged by the multiple adults as a necessary part of the proper FLDS "life" and spiritual requirements to get into heaven. This is BRAINWASHING and these kids are indoctrinated to their CORE. They know NOTHING ELSE. How can we expect these children to even know right from wrong or truth from lies (as those apply in the REAL WORLD) - they have no exposure to books, school, TV, radio, internet or even a routine Dr visit. These kids have been raised in isolation from EVERYTHING except the twisted FLDS Way - and oh my, culture shock is an understatement. When is the last time that CPS had to go about teaching 450 kids who a "Mommy" and "Daddy" are, or not to lie to anyone not wearing a prairie dress, or how to use a crayon or a ball?

There is NO WAY they are gonna let these kids away from supervision before the DNA is in...because they don't even know WHO TO RELEASE THE KIDS TO!! And they are still investigating CRIMES and ABUSE by the MEN against underage girls - TX isn't going to start turning kids back until those possible charges are fully investigated because the RELATIONSHIPS inside the FLDS are so convoluted that they MIGHT be giving a child back to his/her mother in good faith and then LATER find that Mom was actually "sealed" to the WORST of the abusers.

This is (in the words of GW Bush) going to be a LONG LONG LONG "process". There will be no "mission accomplished" banners flying this year. We will have to be patient and it's going to be expensive and it's going to be frustrating and we will be in turn angry and shocked and it is going to be hard on the kids. Many kids will be saved, but there will be collateral damage too and some innocent people will be hurt (hopefully not too badly tho). Every SINGLE RULE of the game no longer applies here - this isn't just a different game or one with different rules, it's a game being played in outer space with ALIENS. Just thinking about the possible twists and turns in this ALREADY makes my HEAD HURT!

We must all remember when thinking about this that everything we think, everything we know, everything we believe IS NOT APPLICABLE HERE. Every road we usually go down to seek some logic, some sense, some resolution or solution is going to smack us into a brick wall. I believe THAT is why this has taken so LONG to shine the light of truth on the FLDS - it's hard for the "masses" to accept that such a group exists and it's going to be SO HARD to educate society at large about the depth of control and "training" the FLDS Leaders had over these people and "their children". I can hear the FLDS lawyers now - arguing that "it just can't be" the way the CPS said it is - you know - "come on now...you expect us to believe that Ms CPS Investigator?" They'll look around the courtroom and roll their eyes as if to say to the gallery - "wink winK' that "can't" be the way it is and we all know it...right"?

Do NOT BE FOOLED - they are counting on us "dumb infidels" to fall for the morality play they are putting on and swallow their line of BS - just like we've been doing. THEY ARE ASKING US TO "BE SWEET" - and I for one, am not feeling very "sweet at all!

My Opinion

[mollymalone]

SNIP
We must all remember when thinking about this that everything we think, everything we know, everything we believe IS NOT APPLICABLE HERE. Every road we usually go down to seek some logic, some sense, some resolution or solution is going to smack us into a brick wall. I believe THAT is why this has taken so LONG to shine the light of truth on the FLDS - it's hard for the "masses" to accept that such a group exists and it's going to be SO HARD to educate society at large about the depth of control and "training" the FLDS Leaders had over these people and "their children". I can hear the FLDS lawyers now - arguing that "it just can't be" the way the CPS said it is - you know - "come on now...you expect us to believe that Ms CPS Investigator?" They'll look around the courtroom and roll their eyes as if to say to the gallery - "wink winK' that "can't" be the way it is and we all know it...right"?

Do NOT BE FOOLED - they are counting on us "dumb infidels" to fall for the morality play they are putting on and swallow their line of BS - just like we've been doing. THEY ARE ASKING US TO "BE SWEET" - and I for one, am not feeling very "sweet at all!

My OpinionI've forgotten who said the quote but it went something along the lines of "give me your children and they're mine for life." It's very apt quotation within this sect. Indoctrination from birth onwards leaves scars in grown women who've run from the flds, it's only to be expected that in these young children there will be as well. All of the accounts I've read about, those who left, male or female have required intensive counseling for years to get over the effects of the indoctrination they'd experienced.
Since the children have been removed at a younger age they will likely be more resilient and adapt better with counseling, but even so, those older children are going to need more counseling than the others.

[mollymalone]

I was incorrect, I thought I'd read somewhere that Wisan was a former flds member but he is not.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33510.html
"Although Jeffs is now behind bars, sect members still consider him their leader and prophet, said Bruce Wisan, a nonmember appointed by the state of Utah to replace Jeffs as manager of a the FLDS' trust. Established in 1942 to "preserve and advance the religious doctrines" of the church, it is now estimated to be worth between $100 million and $150 million.
Under Jeffs' direction, Wisan said, sect households are required to tithe at least 10 percent of their gross income to the church, plus an extra $1,000 a month."

[Leila]

Truly, I'm not through the whole thread yet ... as soon as I get a chance I try to sleuth it out. The name of the party who purchased the property is in one of our threads. I remember it had been published in the little Eldorado newspaper.

If I remember correctly, there was a man named David Steed Allred who purchased the property in Colorado, with the same reason - a corporate hunting retreat. I think David Steed Allred was involved in the purchase of the YFZ ranch.

Edited to add.............oops.....I was reading and replying to the posts as I read them. I saw that you have the same information - David Steed Allred.

[Leila]

I think Jeffs is still "the man," although it's difficult to use the term "man." It's my understanding he's ruling the roost from prison.

I have no doubt that Warren Jeffs is still in charge. I think he's got a lot of second in command guys that are answerable to him, running the various communities.

When Marilyn Jeffs was giving that tour of her home, Warren Jeffs picture was everywhere. But, in the kitchen on the wall behind the long dining table was a group of about a dozen pictures of men. I wonder if those were pictures of the top leaders of the FLDS.

[golfmom]

I was incorrect, I thought I'd read somewhere that Wisan was a former flds member but he is not.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33510.html
"Although Jeffs is now behind bars, sect members still consider him their leader and prophet, said Bruce Wisan, a nonmember appointed by the state of Utah to replace Jeffs as manager of a the FLDS' trust. Established in 1942 to "preserve and advance the religious doctrines" of the church, it is now estimated to be worth between $100 million and $150 million.
Under Jeffs' direction, Wisan said, sect households are required to tithe at least 10 percent of their gross income to the church, plus an extra $1,000 a month."

I knew that he was appointed by the judge and was not a member of FLDS, but shocked at the disparity of treatment between the lost boys and child brides.

[mollymalone]

I knew that he was appointed by the judge and was not a member of FLDS, but shocked at the disparity of treatment between the lost boys and child brides.I believe he did see to it that a woman who was kicked out kept her house. I think there will be a large number of the women who file or have filed against the trust that until there's a thorough investigation of the money that the claims won't be settled. I think his main goal at the moment is to track the money, and to restore the homes to those flds or former flds members who were forced to place their homes/equity etc.. into the trust. He's also selling off properties and companies and removing them from the control of Jeffs cronies. After that will come the claims from those former members who lodge claims against the trust. Until there's more information about the entire situation I'll cut him some slack about disparity. He's got a tangled task to perform. I also believe that it's not going to be just him making the decisions about who gets what from the trust since the state is ultimately in control of it and those claims will probably end up in court and decided by a judge.

[Native New Yorker]

SAN ANTONIO — "Workers at the Children’s Shelter on this city’s gritty west side began this week to remove anything and everything colored red from the walls, the floors, even from their clothes.

The shelter’s president, Jack Downey, said he was not sure, exactly, what was wrong with red, only that state officials had told him to get rid of it in preparing for the children of a fundamentalist polygamy (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/polygamy/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) sect who would be coming his way as their odyssey through the Texas (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/texas/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) child welfare system began.
But getting the red out is only the beginning. Forget bologna and white bread for lunch, too. Because the children, from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/f/fundamentalist_church_of_jesus_christ_of_latterday _saints/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), or F.L.D.S., have never eaten processed foods, the new shelter mantra is whole grains and fresh vegetables. Because they have never been to public school, the equivalent of home schooling (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/h/home_schooling/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) will be established in shelters. Because they have never watched television, televisions will remain off."


"State officials and some other child welfare experts say Texas was right to throw out the old best-practice playbook in this instance. Group shelters, they say, will allow the children to support and reinforce one another through the inevitable trauma of separation and transition. A traditional middle-class foster home, they say, would be even more of a shock to an F.L.D.S. child, especially because many such homes in Texas are run by religiously minded Baptists and Presbyterians."

[Native New Yorker]

And yes, this article does mention that CPS has a bad track record, and that FLDS sympathizers do not like the whole situation, etc....
but all in all, this is a pretty balanced article...
Unless someone else can instantly come up with a system to rescue mistreated and abused children, we have to work with what we have.....

[mollymalone]

I found another reference to the eight others who were charged last year about the time Jeffs was.

http://www.childbrides.org/control_KVOA_Warrens_transport_still_pending.html

In additional to the criminal charges, Jeffs has been named in multiple civil lawsuits dating back to 2004, but he has failed to defend himself, or even appear in court, in any of those cases, choosing instead to go into hiding. None of those cases have gone forward in his absence, but remain pending.

Barlow is one of eight FLDS men charged in Arizona with felony crimes for alleged sexual activity with underage girls they took as "spiritual wives." He is charged with two counts of sexual assault for his spiritual marriage to Shapley when she was 16. Once considered a willing witness, Shapley balked in court after pressure from her mother and others. A judge found Shapley in contempt of court and the case is now stalled. "Her mother and father, the people she loves the most are going to be giving her pressure."

Also, Jeffs is facing federal charges: http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A458465
"even if the state charges fail, Jeffs will face a federal charge of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, indicted by a federal grand jury last week in connection with the months Jeffs spent on the lam last year, traveling from state to state to evade arrest on the Utah and Arizona rape-related charges. The federal charge carries a possible punishment of five years in the federal slammer and a $250,000 fine."

[Leila]

I don't know about others here, but this case just has me boiling. The men & women of the FLDS all need prosecuted for this mess.

I'm sick & tired of hearing about them & there rights being violated. The lawyer said in above article the state lied, when stating siblings would be kept together. One family had 13 & were seperated. I say to him.......nobody in there right damn minds should have 13 kids. Both the mother & father should of been made to be sterilized! In this day & age NOBODY can afford to feed that many kids ot give them a decent education.

We know they don't waste money on the kids, toys, education or clothes. We know they throw the boys away like grabage. They molest & rape young girls. They're kept prisoners at the ranch.

Now the parents are crying our RIGHTS are violated. What are they thinking? We went over & bombed Iraq for the country being run by a mad man / today we have the same thing in our country at the FLDS ranch.
:bang:

I'd love to see each and every man who is guilty of a crime in the FLDS prosecuted. There's first and foremost the abuse of the children. But, they've broken other laws too, and should be prosecuted for all.

I read an article yesterday that was disturbing. The article said that one reason the children are being kept together in group homes is that the goal is to eventually return the children to their parents.

I don't feel the children should be returned to their parents unless the parents are de-programmed and understand that what's best for the children comes before any edict from their leader/prophet. The women need to understand that they have rights and are expected to protect their children from harm. The men and women of the FLDS should be made to undergo counseling and parenting classes in addition to de-programming. In other words, the FLDS needs to be completely reformed from within before it can be considered a safe environment for children.

[Floh]

:clap: :clap: :clap: I agree wholeheartedly. I hope when we get a forum, all of FlowerChild's posts so far can have an entire thread, as she has so eloquently taken what so many here are feeling, and has put it into precisely the right words. :clap: :clap: :clap:


For reasons best known to themselves, i think we are whistling in the wind to hope for a forum from the mods, unfortunately.

[FlowerChild]

I have no doubt that Warren Jeffs is still in charge. I think he's got a lot of second in command guys that are answerable to him, running the various communities.

When Marilyn Jeffs was giving that tour of her home, Warren Jeffs picture was everywhere. But, in the kitchen on the wall behind the long dining table was a group of about a dozen pictures of men. I wonder if those were pictures of the top leaders of the FLDS.
It's the "Prophet" and his "Apostles". And yes, they are the leaders of the FLDS. The regular men are all the "Priesthood" and they are being "guided" by the Prophet and Apostles - and of COURSE you would want these men looking down on you and the women and the children at every opportunity...so as to foster that whole "being sweet" thing.

It's strikes me as so funny - usually girls have posters of their "crushes" up - you know, pictures of musicians or actors on their walls. Like the Jonas Brothers or the boys in High School Musical. And here, who do the girls have on their walls to "crush on"? A bunch of (mostly) OLD MEN - and that ugly, creepy pasty looking Warren JEFFS! And the SICKEST PART? That it's very possible that these girls will end up "married" to one of the men on the wall and having a baby with him before she is 18 - if she is "sweet enough".

Outside the FLDS Church Warren Jeffs couldn't even even DREAM of getting ONE attractive young girl to LOOK at him without disgust - and how "nice" he has managed to set himself up so that he gets 1st pick of ALL the available women/girls - even the ones that are "married" to someone else already. That worm has more than 60 WIVES!

I do not understand how ANYONE could look at the situation and not see that this whole organization is set up for the exclusive benefit of a bunch of creeps and losers that in the "real world" couldn't get a DOG to follow them without a burger in their pocket - and there they are with a HAREM and women gathered around them like they are some kind of rock star.

And we must note that Warren Jeffs forbids ALL nudity (even during sex, both must be clothed) in his followers and has them all dressed in layers of special clothing that they cannot remove EVER - but when HE is arrested he isn't dressed that way, his "wife" isn't dressed that way and they are leaving Las Vegas with $50K in cash in a RED luxury SUV. You don't think that his "rules" might be just a little self-serving do you? Funny how the supposed rejection of the "infidel world" and the blind adherence to the faith and all the trappings goes right out the window when it's his AZZ on the line! I guess God "excused" him and his buddies from the rules because of the "persecution"? His FOLLOWERS must follow the rules and have 30 wives and do all the "sweet" crap because of the STRONG religious convictions and they are so ignorant that they don't know what is "right" or normal in the world but HE certainly had no problem "faking" the normal when following his own FAITH might get him caught and thrown in JAIL.

IMO, it's either you're living your faith and conviction, or you are NOT - you can't be picking and choosing when to believe by whether it's convenient to you or "easy" for you. Either God has said you MUST dress this way and live this way and reject the "infidel" ways --- OR NOT. Which is it Warren?

My Opinion

[mollymalone]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A458465

"on March 2, a Utah state judge ordered Jeffs and other FLDS leaders to pay an $8.8 million judgment to the FLDS' United Effort Plan Trust, designed to hold the wealth of all FLDS members. The trust was taken over, and the state appointed a special fiduciary to review its assets after evidence suggested Jeffs and his cronies were raiding its assets. The FLDS leaders who are named trustees failed to respond to a lawsuit filed by court-appointed fiduciary Bruce Wisan, the Deseret Morning News reports, prompting the court to enter the multimillion-dollar judgment. Whether Wisan will be able to collect the funds and restore the trust is unknown: Shortly after Wisan took over, entire buildings, along with farm equipment and other tangible assets, began disappearing from the FLDS stronghold known as Short Creek, twin towns straddling the Arizona-Utah border. The UEP is land-rich, with about $110 million in assets, but cash-poor – indeed, most of the cash has reportedly disappeared, as have the UEP trustees."

[Leila]

I stumbled upon the photos of Jeffs in his shorts and one if his mothers who turned into a wife in her levis.

http://www.childbrides.org/images/resized_Warren_caught_wearing_shorts.jpg http://www.childbrides.org/images/Naomi_Jeffs_in_jeans.jpg

Fantastic find Golfmom!!! Where's the special protective underwear? And Naomi doesn't have her hair done up in the braids/bun.

Some enterprising person could make up a thousand of these pictures, along with pictures of the red Cadilac Escolade, and all the junk he had packed in that vehicle, and drop it from a helicopter over the YFZ ranch. :)

[Leila]

I did a snip of this article because it specifically addresses the concerns raised on the board as to whether or not children were being harmed in ways beyond the "teen bride" issue:

"CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.
Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities."

At this point only infants who are still nursing are allowed to be with their mothers. So the state, which has a low threshold for removal according to the law sources I have been reading, has swept up and disrupted 400+ children for the now 10% or so (my number) who have been determined to be at risk. Hmmm...

Here is the link to the ap article...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080426/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AnNgOtBth2R9LSLbm41m27dvzw cF

Since that article was written, the authorities have found an additional 25 girls, who at first said they were adults, but admitted they lied and are actually minors. Many of them are pregnant. Just yesterday, authorities stated that they have evidence of widespread systemic abuse.

I don't think they've even begun to uncover all the abuses. I think it's going to be some time down the road when we learn the extent of the abuse. And when the DNA is completed, I think there's going to be children who have no biological parents that live at the YFZ ranch. These are going to be those children who Warren Jeffs separated from their biological parent and sent them alone to Texas.

[Ladybass0711]

For reasons best known to themselves, i think we are whistling in the wind to hope for a forum from the mods, unfortunately.

Actually no, this is untrue, I have spoken with the mods, The seperate forum takes time to set up, and they promise me they are working on it.

[believe09]

Since that article was written, the authorities have found an additional 25 girls, who at first said they were adults, but admitted they lied and are actually minors. Many of them are pregnant. Just yesterday, authorities stated that they have evidence of widespread systemic abuse.

I don't think they've even begun to uncover all the abuses. I think it's going to be some time down the road when we learn the extent of the abuse. And when the DNA is completed, I think there's going to be children who have no biological parents that live at the YFZ ranch. These are going to be those children who Warren Jeffs separated from their biological parent and sent them alone to Texas.

hmmm, the date of the article is 4/26 at 649am...

[Ladybass0711]

Lawyers: 2 sect kids missing

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/26/lawyers-2-sect-kids-missing/

[Ladybass0711]

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/apr/25/for-now-a-new-home/

Some FLDS children brought to Abilene

"We have to work with them, build up their trust," he said, over the sounds of the children playing on the facility's playground.
"They love the playground," Miller said. "Their eyes got as big as saucers when they got off the bus and saw the playground."
Their favorite playground equipment?
"They're most interested in the slides and monkey bars," Miller said. "They are having fun."

[Floh]

Actually no, this is untrue, I have spoken with the mods, The seperate forum takes time to set up, and they promise me they are working on it.

Fingers crossed! :)

[mollymalone]

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/apr/25/for-now-a-new-home/

Some FLDS children brought to Abilene

"We have to work with them, build up their trust," he said, over the sounds of the children playing on the facility's playground.
"They love the playground," Miller said. "Their eyes got as big as saucers when they got off the bus and saw the playground."
Their favorite playground equipment?
"They're most interested in the slides and monkey bars," Miller said. "They are having fun."Did you see the part about possible visitation if he court orders it? "Finances are not a problem for the YFZ parents"

"It is unclear whether YFZ parents will come to Abilene to visit their children or if the children will be taken back to San Angelo. CPS will usually help parents visit their children by obtaining bus passes for them or arranging rides, Henley said. If groups of siblings are separated, it could make visitation for the parents more difficult, she said, adding that finances are not a problem for the YFZ parents.

[Ladybass0711]

Did you see the part about possible visitation if he court orders it? "Finances are not a problem for the YFZ parents"

"It is unclear whether YFZ parents will come to Abilene to visit their children or if the children will be taken back to San Angelo. CPS will usually help parents visit their children by obtaining bus passes for them or arranging rides, Henley said. If groups of siblings are separated, it could make visitation for the parents more difficult, she said, adding that finances are not a problem for the YFZ parents.

Yep, makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[Leila]

hmmm, the date of the article is 4/26 at 649am...

You're right............I went back and re-read the article/date. I originally thought it was an earlier article.

There seems to be a conflict between all the media reports. In the past week, there was a report of 10 girls pregnant, with at least two others who have given birth since removal from the YFZ ranch. Then there was another article that stated there were 18 pregnant girls who were underage. And yesterday it was reported that there's now an additional 25 girls, first listed as adults.

It's getting confusing exactly how many are underage and pregnant. And all the media are reputable media sources.

[mollymalone]

I believe each of the women who left should be compensated in some fashion by the flds and I believe that means if they have to sell off those compounds, breaking them up into individual plots, properties and businesses etc. then so be it. But I do see Wisan's point, there are others responsible for her marriage including her own family.

I think Wisan's other point is that the people who paid into the trust were not the administrators such as Rulon, Warren or the other leaders, and that going after the trust is going after the people who paid their earnings into it or had their homes made a part of it, and not those who were really responsible. This was Dec 2007 so it's probably still in litigation.

Elissa Wall's lawsuit against the Jeffs and the trust widened.
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=27085&con=4&sec=26
"In an amended complaint filed Monday in 3rd District Court, Elissa Wall alleges that Jeffs, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, trustees and participants in its United Effort Plan Trust all knew about such illegal marriages but did nothing to stop them. Wisan said if she succeeds, Wall will decimate the trust and pave the way for other teen brides to make similar claims. "We don't feel the trust has any liability whatsoever and we think it is a real stretch for them to include the trust because somebody was living in [one of its houses]," Wisan said. "It's hurting the trust and it's hurting the people." The trust "won't take the brunt of her allegations," he said. "The trust will turn around and sue her mother, her sisters, possibly her father and others who had a hand in and promoted her marriage."

[LinasK]

I'd love to see each and every man who is guilty of a crime in the FLDS prosecuted. There's first and foremost the abuse of the children. But, they've broken other laws too, and should be prosecuted for all.

I read an article yesterday that was disturbing. The article said that one reason the children are being kept together in group homes is that the goal is to eventually return the children to their parents.

I don't feel the children should be returned to their parents unless the parents are de-programmed and understand that what's best for the children comes before any edict from their leader/prophet. The women need to understand that they have rights and are expected to protect their children from harm. The men and women of the FLDS should be made to undergo counseling and parenting classes in addition to de-programming. In other words, the FLDS needs to be completely reformed from within before it can be considered a safe environment for children.
I completely agree with you Leila!:clap::clap::clap:

[Leila]

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/apr/25/for-now-a-new-home/

Some FLDS children brought to Abilene

"We have to work with them, build up their trust," he said, over the sounds of the children playing on the facility's playground.
"They love the playground," Miller said. "Their eyes got as big as saucers when they got off the bus and saw the playground."
Their favorite playground equipment?
"They're most interested in the slides and monkey bars," Miller said. "They are having fun."

It's so good to know that these kids are enjoying the playground equipment! I would hazard a guess that they've never had the experience of swings, slides, monkey bars, etc. The report that the kids are having fun, is a good indicator that they are feeling more comfortable with their surroundings. :)

[FlowerChild]

The only approved "toy" for the YFZ children was a trampoline. No playground, no toys , no swings. I saw a picture of some little girls wading in a stream (yes with all those clothes on) and a "teacher" with some balloons made into a baby-like "figure" and kids in a classroom with paper and pencils - but I have yet to see any recreational type areas for kids. Most of the photos are of kids "working" - gardening, with livestock, cooking, holding plants etc. It looks very wholesome (circa 1925) on the surface - until you realize you are looking at the most benign, positive, "sweet" images the FLDS could find and there isn't a crayon or toy or even that "approved" trampoline in sight. And it gets kinda creepy after a few dozen shots because you start to realize that in most of the pictures - little kids are actually WORKING...not posing for a "fantasy farm experience photo" for Mom's Scrapbook .

My Opinion

[Linda7NJ]

The only approved "toy" for the YFZ children was a trampoline. No playground, no toys , no swings. I saw a picture of some little girls wading in a stream (yes with all those clothes on) and a "teacher" with some balloons made into a baby-like "figure" and kids in a classroom with paper and pencils - but I have yet to see any recreational type areas for kids. Most of the photos are of kids "working" - gardening, with livestock, cooking, holding plants etc. It looks very wholesome (circa 1925) on the surface - until you realize you are looking at the most benign, positive, "sweet" images the FLDS could find and there isn't a crayon or toy or even that "approved" trampoline in sight. And it gets kinda creepy after a few dozen shots because you start to realize that in most of the pictures - little kids are actually WORKING...not posing for a "fantasy farm experience photo" for Mom's Scrapbook .

My Opinion

I have absolutely no problem with young children working and learning how to do all of those things and doing them well.

BUT children need to also PLAY and be children too! I wouldn't care if they had no high tech toys...I think their kinda crummy too...but toys that allow a young child to use their imagination, stick horses, a playground, a wagon, a babydoll...any circa 1925 toys would suit me just fine...but there just isn't any.

[TGIRecovered]

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/apr/25/for-now-a-new-home/

Some FLDS children brought to Abilene

"We have to work with them, build up their trust," he said, over the sounds of the children playing on the facility's playground.
"They love the playground," Miller said. "Their eyes got as big as saucers when they got off the bus and saw the playground."
Their favorite playground equipment?
"They're most interested in the slides and monkey bars," Miller said. "They are having fun."


Thank you so much for the link Ladybass ! I live in Abilene and when I opened the paper this morning, the sight of the children playing on the slide warmed my heart and made my day!

I have attended church with staff members, residents and former residents of Hendrick Home for children. Even my oldest child's pediatrician grew up there. The children who live there are very well-loved, cherished and cared for. I am so glad that our city has been blessed with an opportunity to host these precious children!

Susan

[Trino]

Thank you so much for the link Ladybass ! I live in Abilene and when I opened the paper this morning, the sight of the children playing on the slide warmed my heart and made my day!

I have attended church with staff members, residents and former residents of Hendrick Home for children. Even my oldest child's pediatrician grew up there. The children who live there are very well-loved, cherished and cared for. It am so glad that our city has been blessed with an opportunity to host these precious children! Susan

How long can these children be sheltered? Wouldn't it be better for the children in the long run to be introduced to society - at least, gradually? Surely, the courts don't wish the children to return to living again under such conditions.

[believe09]

How long can these children be sheltered? Wouldn't it be better for the children in the long run to be introduced to society - at least, gradually? Surely, the courts don't wish the children to return to living again under such conditions.

K, I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful. Again, I am not advocating for it, but I have seen a lot of speculation as to what life is like inside of the compound or the sect itself, but I have not see much that applies to this case, except evidence of underage marriage which I find personally abhorrent...there are lots of cultures outside of the US that function otherwise however.

Waterboarding babies, and the like-of course heinous behavior that needs to be punished severely and if the belief behind it is common, then the belief should be unlearned. Now, my understanding of Scientology is that the children are not to be angered, troubled or challenged-they are to be soothed rather than disciplined etc...and I have read some speculation that this is why Suri continues to carry a bottle at a time most of us would have weaned our children from it.

I am very scared about generalizing the need to de-program beliefs that we don't like...i am not expressing myself well...does anyone understand what I mean?

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Link to the arrival of children to our local children's home (video of buses arriving, also).

This is the same place that housed many children of the Branch Davidian saga 15 years ago. Over the course of the last few days, staff has mentioned that they would be keeping the FLDS children separate from the other children already housed there.

I think our local community will do what they can to assist these children. I hope after this weekend, that we'll hear little bits of what they're doing, such as playing on the playground, like in Abilene :) . For all the stresses and strains these children are and will be going through, I'm sure they will also have moments of experiencing some good that they have never had before. Hopefully, it will be a little bit at a time, so that they aren't totally overwhelmed.

My thoughts and prayers to the children AND the staff that will be caring for them at such a critical time :blowkiss:


http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/04/26/04262008wacchildrenshome.html

[Native New Yorker]

"State officials say that their long-term goal is reunification of the families torn asunder in an investigation into the possibility that under-age girls at the ranch were forced to marry, and that extraordinary steps are being taken to minimize the shock of foster care and shelter life as the case continues to unfold. Families across Texas have raised their hands to adopt the children or to volunteer as foster parents.
“We’re not going to throw them in the middle of the pond in an alien world,” said Mr. Downey at the Children’s Shelter, where 22 children arrived on Friday, none of them over age 6. “We’re going to stick our toe in the water and walk together — we’re going to be very, very careful.”
But the hard reality, child advocacy experts and foster parents say, is that the children — deeply isolated from much of modern culture all their lives — are being flung headlong into places like this from here to Amarillo that they cannot begin to understand.
And the Texas child welfare system, those experts and insiders say — underfinanced and understaffed in the best of times, dysfunctional in the worst — can do only so much to make the road easier."



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26raid.html?ex=1366948800&en=c2695a3d41a59c1c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Mygirlsadie]

That's so awesome. I also saw where they LOVED the bright red tricycles. :)





http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/apr/25/for-now-a-new-home/

Some FLDS children brought to Abilene

"We have to work with them, build up their trust," he said, over the sounds of the children playing on the facility's playground.
"They love the playground," Miller said. "Their eyes got as big as saucers when they got off the bus and saw the playground."
Their favorite playground equipment?
"They're most interested in the slides and monkey bars," Miller said. "They are having fun."

[DEPUTYDAWG]

http://www.kxxv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8231749

The last busloads of children from the group left the San Angelo Coliseum on Friday, headed for shelters and group homes around the state. One bus had to stop several times on the way to Brazoria County, south of Houston, because some of the children got motion sickness.

A state trooper said some of the children had probably never ridden in a vehicle before.

[Native New Yorker]

“We want them to remain in their culture while we learn fully what’s happened to them,” said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, which was granted indefinite custody of the children by a State District Court judge last week. The judge, Barbara Walther, ordered that each child be assigned a lawyer from among a pool of volunteers around the state.
On Tuesday, the state began moving the children from San Angelo, about 45 miles from the Zion ranch, where they had been held in a makeshift shelter at a multipurpose domed coliseum. Mr. Azar and other state officials would not say exactly where the children were going or how many might be coming to San Antonio.
“With this population, we have to do things differently than we would for a child that comes out of downtown Houston — what that fully entails, we’re still working out,” he said.
But state officials also know that the children cannot stay in large group settings like the Children’s Shelter forever. Ninety days is the legal limit in a traditional shelter, though a court order this week by Judge Walther, who is overseeing the case, said discussions would be undertaken about longer-term care."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26raid.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=c2695a3d41a59c1c&ex=1366948800&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Native New Yorker]

"Meanwhile, traditional foster homes — the presumed next step in the F.L.D.S. diaspora — are waiting. Here in San Antonio, the Block family has already volunteered.
“I told the boys the situation and said, ‘What do you think about helping out some of these kids?’ and they immediately said yes,” said Roy Block, who also serves as executive director of the Texas Foster Family Association, referring to his two sons. “In fact they even offered to give up their rooms.”
The Texas Foster Family Association is a nonprofit group that receives public and private financing.
Mr. Block and his wife, Judi, first took in their two sons, Thomas, 14, and George, 11, who are brothers, as foster children, then later adopted them. The boys entered the foster-care system about five years ago, after they came home from school one day to find their father being arrested in the murder of their mother.
The Blocks are Baptists but said they would respect the culture and traditions of the sect’s children and do everything in their power to make them feel at home.
“We would hope to show them one day that the world is not all bad, that there are a lot of good people,” Mr. Block said. “We’d try to explain to them why this happened, that they’re victims, that they didn’t do anything wrong.”
NEy York Times, 4/26/08

[southcitymom]

K, I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful. Again, I am not advocating for it, but I have seen a lot of speculation as to what life is like inside of the compound or the sect itself, but I have not see much that applies to this case, except evidence of underage marriage which I find personally abhorrent...there are lots of cultures outside of the US that function otherwise however.

Waterboarding babies, and the like-of course heinous behavior that needs to be punished severely and if the belief behind it is common, then the belief should be unlearned. Now, my understanding of Scientology is that the children are not to be angered, troubled or challenged-they are to be soothed rather than disciplined etc...and I have read some speculation that this is why Suri continues to carry a bottle at a time most of us would have weaned our children from it. Let the deprogramming begin

I am very scared about generalizing the need to de-program beliefs that we don't like...i am not expressing myself well...does anyone understand what I mean?

I think you have expressed yourself very well and I have the same feelings. I don't think any of us believe adults having sex with and/or physically abusing children is appropriate behavior. The rest of what I have read about the FLDS is not my thing, but I believe people should have the freedom to practice beliefs they wish to practice - even if that practice seems odd, unsavory or unhealthy to the rest ("majority") of us.

However, I think some folks deem the FLDS (as well as Scientology) a cult and believe that people are brainwashed and/or threatened into following certain beliefs. Some think because of this factor, cults are fair game for dismantling/attacking. This is not how I feel, but I can surely understand the point.

The reality is that we can look at every reputable acceptable religion/denomination in the world and find things they do and doctrines they feed to followers that we might consider unhealthy or even vile.

Frankly, now that these children have been completely uprooted from their religious lifestyle (which by nature is small and simplified) and put into the "system," there is no way in the world to keep them from beginning to live an Americanized, mainstream existence. And so the deprogramming will begin whether they or their families want it to or not. I find that sad and dangerous and scary, but I see no way around it given the current situation.

[mollymalone]

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/arts/2005/10/27/spiritual_.html

Followers are taught that the non-faithful are agents of Satan - the truck used by Banking on Heaven's crew drives a wave of fleeing children and adults before it, though not before one mother takes the time to raise her middle finger. The film crew was constantly followed by groups of young men in trucks who at one occasion tried to drive the director and writer's car off the road. When asked during a post-film Q&A if they feared any violence, writer Laurie Allen replied, "Our crew needs to know not just how to use a camera but a .357 too."

[mollymalone]

http://thehopeorg.org/photos_Alta_Academy.html
Alta Academy Yearbooks - Photo Gallery- Here are some photos of Warren Jeffs and some other folks at Alta Academy from 1988 to 1996.

[Leila]

How long can these children be sheltered? Wouldn't it be better for the children in the long run to be introduced to society - at least, gradually? Surely, the courts don't wish the children to return to living again under such conditions.

I've wondered about that too. At some point, I can see one of the FLDS children asking "what's that" and pointing to the TV, or other things they encounter in their new environment.

If the children are taken outside the facility and see other children dressed differently and ask why they can't dress like that, how will the caregivers respond?

[mollymalone]

Excellent video and interview by Mike Watkiss!! Within the clip there are scenes of large groups of the FLDS with lots of children.
http://www.azfamily.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=51448&catId=245
Ruth Stubbs four years later
February 16th, 2006Mike Watkiss interviews Ruth Stubbs, a young mother who fled her polygamist police officer husband.

Edited to add: http://www.azfamily.com/sharedcontent/southwest/azfamily/features/polygamy/index2.html
A number of other interviews/videos down the page.

[Truly]

Re: the Pentagon Contract-background checks are done on the companies and those running the company, but if there are no reports of criminal activity by the company or the persons, then their bid can be considered.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33510.html
"A large portion of the awards were preferential no-bid or "sole source" contracts because of the company's classification as a small business, according to online databases that track federal government appropriations.
NewEra, previously known as Western Precision Inc. and located in Hildale, Utah, also received a $900,000 loan in 2005 from the federal Small Business Administration, the data show."

(snip for space)

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/9827
"The president of Western Precision was Wendell Nielsen, described in multiple media accounts as a senior official in the FLDS religious sect" "Neilsen disappeared with church leader Warren Jeffs after Jeffs was put on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list in 2003" "The records show that Western Precision continued to receive government contracts even after the well-publicized manhunt. And when Jeffs was captured in 2006, he was riding in an SUV registered to John C. Wayman, another Western Precision executive.""In an affidavit filed by Wendell Nielsen's son in a church-related court case, Western Precision gave the church up to $100,000 a month, a testament to the close ties between the manufacturing firm and the church itself."

From molly's last link:

And the Defense Department was apparently pleased with Western Precision's work. In 2002, it honored the company with its "Innovative Business Performer of the Year" award.
Nielsen and Wayman and other church elders who worked at Western Precision, now known as the Las Vegas-based NewEra Manufacturing, could not be reached for comment.


So Western Precision, after changing it's name to NewEra Manufacturing, relocated it's headquarters to Las Vegas, Nevada?!! Probably to avoid having it's assets tied up in the disbursement of the UEP trust in Hilsdale. But Las Vegas?!!! I mean, they didn't move to the Little Ranch On The Prairie in Eldorado, Tx.

Nooooo...they headed straight for the den of iniquity itself! What is the FLDS doing in Vegas???Accompanied by Warren Jeffs, while he was on the run as one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted men. Where did he get that fifty grand cash he had in his pockets when he was arrested? What exactly are these guys up to in Las Vegas? Anything to do with selling young kids for sex? I am beginning to really think they are breeding kids to sell on the black market.

[Truly]

I can only access this article through Google Cache. Published April 1, 2004 it identifies David Steed Allred as the sole registered owner of the property. He was the only shareholder listed on the articles of incorporation for YFZ, L.L.C.

Not surprisingly, Allred is related to Jeffs.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:nXQ7A98BCW0J:www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%2520Pages/YFZ040104.html+eldorado+FLDS+ownership&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:nXQ7A98BCW0J:www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%2520Pages/YFZ040104.html+eldorado+FLDS+ownership&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us)

David Steed Allred. Yes, he is the one who showed up to purchase the property in Eldorado, Tx. ostensibly as a 'hunting retreat for his corporate clients'. What are his corporate clients hunting for? Sex with little girls??? :mad:

Are the authorities actively searching for the men whose names are highlighted above? This is the core group of criminals, imo, all of their false religious facades aside. This is not about religious persecution. It is about the prosecution of crimes against children.

[mollymalone]

From molly's last link:


So Western Precision, after changing it's name to NewEra Manufacturing, relocated it's headquarters to Las Vegas, Nevada?!! Probably to avoid having it's assets tied up in the disbursement of the UEP trust in Hillsdale. But Las Vegas?!!! I mean, they didn't move to the Little Ranch On The Prairie in Eldorado, Tx.

Nooooo...they headed straight for the den of iniquity itself! What is the FLDS doing in Vegas???Accompanied by Warren Jeffs, while he was on the run as one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted men. Where did he get that fifty grand cash he had in his pockets when he was arrested? What exactly are these guys up to in Las Vegas? Anything to do with selling young kids for sex? I am beginning to really think they are breeding kids to sell on the black market.Oh, it's no surprise that he headed to Las Vegas, there are companies and some of his followers living there. There were contracts awarded to some of the flds companies in Vegas.

Even though the UEP was in state hands, the money was still flowing directly to Warren Jeffs. They simply stopped paying into the UEP and funneled it through his brother and others close to him.

[mollymalone]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A313592
From government construction sites like one at the Las Vegas Springs Preserve to one at the Clark County Wetlands Park, a river is running. But it's not water that flows from these places. It's money, taxpayers' money. And a whole lot of it is going to JNJ Engineering. The company has nearly $10.5 million in government contracts with the City, County and Water District. Spokesperson J.C. Davis says $9.6 million of that is with the Water District alone. "They keep getting contracts because they keep bidding on contracts."

"JNJ Engineering's Jacob Jessop and his family live in a million-dollar home on Gilbert Lane in northwest Las Vegas and another one in Hildale, Utah.Nevada law requires government to award its contracts to the lowest responsive and responsible bidder. JNJ often undercuts the next lowest bidder by tens or hundreds of thousands, and their bids are also often hundreds of thousands less than the government engineer's own estimate. Flora Jessop says there's a reason for that. "A lot of what happens in these corporations is they use their children as the labor force and so they don't have to pay wages."

[Truly]

Yes, Molly, and consider this: All of the women who have managed to escape have reported that they were told that if they tried to run away to the 'outside world', they would be caught and 'forced to have sex with many men'. I am thinking that the free-spirited girls have been sold into sexual slavery in Las Vegas. Probably some of the boys as well. It would have been instant cash for Jeffs while he was on the run, and not traceable to defense contracts.:eek:

[mollymalone]

Yes, Molly, and consider this: All of the women who have managed to escape have reported that they were told that if they tried to run away to the 'outside world', they would be caught and 'forced to have sex with many men'. I am thinking that the free-spirited girls have been sold into sexual slavery in Las Vegas. Probably some of the boys as well. It would have been instant cash for Jeffs while he was on the run, and not traceable to defense contracts.:eek:From all I've read I think what the flds meant by telling the girls they would be "caught and forced to have sex with many men" was to scare the girls about going to the outside, that people out here would catch her and force her to cut her hair and do that to her. It's a psychological scare tactic.

If your idea is so, I don't think it would be Vegas, but across the border.

[Truly]

From all I've read I think what the flds meant by telling the girls they would be "caught and forced to have sex with many men" was to scare the girls about going to the outside, that people out here would catch her and force her to cut her hair and do that to her. It's a psychological scare tactic.

If your idea is so, I don't think it would be Vegas, but across the border.

What border? Thailand? It is primarily American men who go for this sick sort of 'sexual tourism'. It is really bad for young kids in Thailand.

I am suggesting that the consequence for disobedience may well have been an FLDS-orchestrated sale of the child into a prostitution ring. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys run these rings themselves in Vegas.

[mollymalone]

What border? Thailand? It is primarily American men who go for this sick sort of 'sexual tourism'. It is really bad for young kids in Thailand.

I am suggesting that the consequence for disobedience may well have been an FLDS-orchestrated sale of the child into a prostitution ring. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys run these rings themselves in Vegas.Since the 1950s the FLDS has been sending disobedient girls or women into Canada, as wives or to work in flds industry there. He's also been building compounds in Mexico and that's the border to which I was referring.

[Truly]

Since the 1950s the FLDS has been sending disobedient girls or women into Canada, as wives or to work in flds industry there. He's also been building compounds in Mexico and that's the border to which I was referring.

Let me ask, have all of the 'Lost Children' been accounted for? It seems like it is all about sex with kids for these men. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs (i.e. modesty, etc....) They rape the young boys as readily as they rape the young girls. I think they are running a breeding operation; they are breeding kids like cattle. When the ranch is full...they haul them off to the sale barn. They may well be using the false religious dicipline to train children to become what their 'corporate clients' are looking for.

[Leila]

K, I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful. Again, I am not advocating for it, but I have seen a lot of speculation as to what life is like inside of the compound or the sect itself, but I have not see much that applies to this case, except evidence of underage marriage which I find personally abhorrent...there are lots of cultures outside of the US that function otherwise however.

Waterboarding babies, and the like-of course heinous behavior that needs to be punished severely and if the belief behind it is common, then the belief should be unlearned. Now, my understanding of Scientology is that the children are not to be angered, troubled or challenged-they are to be soothed rather than disciplined etc...and I have read some speculation that this is why Suri continues to carry a bottle at a time most of us would have weaned our children from it.

I am very scared about generalizing the need to de-program beliefs that we don't like...i am not expressing myself well...does anyone understand what I mean?

I understand what you mean.

There are a lot of religions in this country, and while any of us might disagree with their particular beliefs, the members of that religion aren't doing anything illegal or harming other people.

But, when a religion includes grooming young girls to have sex with older men when they reach puberty; physical or emotional abuse of children, and incest, then that's when those outside the religion must take steps to protect the children. Children have rights too, and in most cases parents protect their children. But, the FLDS mothers don't protect their children from abuse because they've been programmed for generations that this abuse is acceptable and an expected part of their life.

To fully understand the concern, it's important to know the background history. Most of the people who live at the Yearning For Zion ranch in Texas, are originally from Colorado City, Arizona and Hilsdale, Utah, two small towns a few miles apart, but with one on the Arizona side of the border and one on the Utah side of the border. Both towns are owned by the FLDS. Warren Jeffs is the president/prophet of the FLDS. He built the Yearning For Zion ranch in Texas in 2003 and started sending people there in 2004. He selected his most loyal followers from Colorado City and Hilsdale to go to the Texas ranch. He also took young children, ages 6 and under from their parents in Colorado City and Hilsdale, and sent them to Texas without their parents, placing them with other families. The FLDS members worship Warren Jeffs, and if he said that their child is to be removed from them and sent to Texas, they comply.

The documented abuses that have been discussed on this forum are from Colorado City and Hilsdale, the very towns and same families that now make up the population of Yearning For Zion ranch in Texas.

Warren Jeffs is the president/prophet of the FLDS. Merrill Jessop is one of several who are second in command, and is the leader of the Yearning For Zion ranch in Texas. It was Merrill Jessop who initially used the water-boarding of infants to instill fear and discipline them not to cry. He did this in Colorado City - does he still do it at the Texas ranch?

The problem with the FLDS is that the women are taught to give total allegiance to the prophet and their community leaders. If a leader decreed that all children are to be beaten by their fathers once a week, the women would accept this and allow it. The de-programming that's spoken of is to teach these women what abuse is, and what's not acceptable, and they have the right to protect their children from abuse.

[Truly]

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A313592
From government construction sites like one at the Las Vegas Springs Preserve to one at the Clark County Wetlands Park, a river is running. But it's not water that flows from these places. It's money, taxpayers' money. And a whole lot of it is going to JNJ Engineering. The company has nearly $10.5 million in government contracts with the City, County and Water District. Spokesperson J.C. Davis says $9.6 million of that is with the Water District alone. "They keep getting contracts because they keep bidding on contracts."

"JNJ Engineering's Jacob Jessop and his family live in a million-dollar home on Gilbert Lane in northwest Las Vegas and another one in Hildale, Utah.Nevada law requires government to award its contracts to the lowest responsive and responsible bidder. JNJ often undercuts the next lowest bidder by tens or hundreds of thousands, and their bids are also often hundreds of thousands less than the government engineer's own estimate. Flora Jessop says there's a reason for that. "A lot of what happens in these corporations is they use their children as the labor force and so they don't have to pay wages."

(Molly, I always read your excellent links! The above took me to this interesting story)

I wonder what is going on in this trial? Warren Jeffs' brother, Seth Jeffs, hired his male cousin for sexual favors. The FLDS are a bunch of con men abusing any kid they can get ahold of.

FLDS First Family Update (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Guides/sxsw)

BY (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Guides/sxsw)JORDAN SMITH (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Archive/author?oid=oid%3A74272)

On Nov. 15, a federal grand jury in Denver indicted Seth Steed Jeffs, the 32-year-old brother of fugitive polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "prophet" Warren Jeffs, on a single count of harboring a fugitive, for allegedly helping big bro Warren evade capture.
Colorado cops arrested little brother Seth Jeffs on Oct. 28, after Pueblo Co. deputies were called about a possible drunken driver near the city of Pueblo. Police found Seth Jeffs and cousin Nathaniel Steed Allred in an SUV; Allred told police he'd been hired by Seth Jeffs to provide sexual favors to his cousin. Also inside the car, police found more than $140,000 in cash, numerous letters addressed to Warren Jeffs, and a glass bowl, affixed with a photo of Warren and labeled "Pennies for the Prophet." Seth is currently out of jail on $25,000 bond; if convicted, he could face up to five years in the federal pen and up to a $250,000 fine. On Nov. 17, he pled not guilty to one count of knowingly harboring and concealing brother Warren. Seth's trial is scheduled to begin Jan. 9 in Denver.


(http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Guides/sxsw)

[mollymalone]

Let me ask, have all of the 'Lost Children' been accounted for? It seems like it is all about sex with kids for these men. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs (i.e. modesty, etc....) They rape the young boys as readily as they rape the young girls. I think they are running a breeding operation; they are breeding kids like cattle. When the ranch is full...they haul them off to the sale barn. They may well be using the false religious dicipline to train children to become what their 'corporate clients' are looking for.I've heard the number 2,000 regarding lost boys, who were "asked to leave", in reality kicked out. That number I assume, is the boys that are known about. How many others disappeared from the other locations? In Canada the same exact thing was happening to boys there.

As for some young women who disappeared, their families continue to search for them, mostly without success. There are those who believe their daughter is at one of the loations but are unable to confirm thise due to intimidation and refusal to allow them to talk to them.

[mollymalone]

Truly, it looks as though Seth's trial already took place.

BTW, did anyone watch Dr. Phil the other day when Rulon Jeff's niece was on?
I ran across a post from someone who did watch it.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchentable/msg040039125187.html?7
"Rulon Jeff's niece was on Dr Phil yesterday. Rulon was an FLDS prophet (their words, not mine) for his entire life and more abusive man you'll never know. He is Warren Jeff's father. (On the side, and the woman on Dr Phil confirmed this, Warren Jeff's sisters were known to be vicious and abusive mothers, disciplining their children with beatings and emotional abuse as well.) Her mother (Jeff's sister, bred, born and raised in polygamy) took her children and ran many years ago. **MOLLY SAYS This would be Elaine Jeffs who left the FLDS** The niece was able to talk to her aunts, cousins, sisters, etc, still at the Texas compound. All of the women she talked to cried and pleaded to have their children returned to them.

Molly says
So the niece talked to her aunts, the ones who are Warren's sisters... the same ones who are abusive and they want their children back. How many of them were the ones we saw on tv being the mouthpeices?

[Vegas Bride]

About some being in and around Las Vegas, it's my understanding that Vegas was settled by the Mormons to begin with. Because of that they would have had ties there for many years I would imagine.

VB

[Truly]

About some being in and around Las Vegas, it's my understanding that Vegas was settled by the Mormons to begin with. Because of that they would have had ties there for many years I would imagine.

VB

Wow. I had no idea. Now I am convinced the FLDS are running child-prostitute rings. The Mormon Mafia. It all fits. Excuse me while I :sick: .

[Floh]

About some being in and around Las Vegas, it's my understanding that Vegas was settled by the Mormons to begin with. Because of that they would have had ties there for many years I would imagine.

VB

That is correct. i have visited what remains of the mormon fort:

http://lasvegas.about.com/od/historylandmarks/p/oldmormonfort.htm

[mollymalone]

A personal view of growing up in the flds under Rulon Jeffs

http://www.geocities.com/plygkid/
By Brian J. Mackert
"My father was a control freak. He would not allow us to call him Dad. We had to call him by the more respectful term, “Father.” Also if you needed anything you had to have his approval or you couldn’t have it. This applied to everything including clothes. I still remember my mom taking clothes that were hand-me-down’s from my older brother Ken, and putting them in father’s study with my name written on a piece of paper. They stayed there until father decided that I was worthy to have them. My sister Rowena told me that Father even denied her feminine hygiene products because she wasn’t worthy and made her use a rag."

"The mother who stayed home and took care of the children was abusive to the children. I remember siblings being beaten to the point that another child would grab her by the arm and ask if she meant to kill the child? This usually stopped the beating. She showed much favoritism toward her own children who never got punished with the level of violence we who weren’t her children experienced. I remember being beaten for telling the truth. She wanted me to lie and say that I had done something one of her children had done. After sticking to my guns she beat me with a wire coat hanger. I refused to cry out. And she kept saying that she was going to beat me until I broke down and cried. She lost that battle but I carried all the scars. I wasn’t able to sit down for three days because of the welts. Abuse like this was easy to hide. You see Father started his own private school to keep from having to send his children to public schools. This kept him from having to answer awkward questions from school officials."

[mollymalone]

http://survivorsucks.yuku.com/topic/29477/t/Merkyl-s-polygamist-ranch-shut-down-400-kids-removed-by-CPS.html?page=2
5th post down, by Lamont and Ray (on the next page or so there are other posts by this person regarding this subject)
I have a handful of very distant cousins who actually have been to the YFZ Ranch. (YFZ stands for Yearning for Zion), and I believe one of them is actually still there. A few of them are still in contact with my grandfather, who does a lot of genealogy work and tries to keep family members aware of situations. Technically, they're not supposed to be, but they are... mostly by email.

Ever since Warren Jeffs was sentenced last year, and "rounounced his priesthood" -- there has been a power struggle between his brother, Issac and Merrill Jessop, who is the "Presiding Elder" at the ranch. Sometime in January or February, Merrill apparently won the fight and Isaac and has disappeared with all of Warren's wives, children and possibly others, too.

"The investigations about the children started several months ago when a toddler was killed on the ranch when a young woman rolled a minivan or something because she wasn't paying attention. There have also been a ton of funerals lately on the ranch -- several of them attributed to vehicle accidents. One 14-year old girl was said to have died of leukemia back in December, but there are rumors that she actually bled to death after giving birth, and nobody sight medical attention for her because of her age and it would "attract attention."

[mysteriew]

http://survivorsucks.yuku.com/topic/29477/t/Merkyl-s-polygamist-ranch-shut-down-400-kids-removed-by-CPS.html?page=2
5th post down, by Lamont and Ray (on the next page or so there are other posts by this person regarding this subject)
I have a handful of very distant cousins who actually have been to the YFZ Ranch. (YFZ stands for Yearning for Zion), and I believe one of them is actually still there. A few of them are still in contact with my grandfather, who does a lot of genealogy work and tries to keep family members aware of situations. Technically, they're not supposed to be, but they are... mostly by email.

Ever since Warren Jeffs was sentenced last year, and "rounounced his priesthood" -- there has been a power struggle between his brother, Issac and Merrill Jessop, who is the "Presiding Elder" at the ranch. Sometime in January or February, Merrill apparently won the fight and Isaac and has disappeared with all of Warren's wives, children and possibly others, too.

"The investigations about the children started several months ago when a toddler was killed on the ranch when a young woman rolled a minivan or something because she wasn't paying attention. There have also been a ton of funerals lately on the ranch -- several of them attributed to vehicle accidents. One 14-year old girl was said to have died of leukemia back in December, but there are rumors that she actually bled to death after giving birth, and nobody sight medical attention for her because of her age and it would "attract attention."
That might have been true in the past, but it seems to have resolved itself according to this April 17 article.

* Merrill Jessop, bishop for the FLDS at the YFZ Ranch, has served as the community's liaison with Texas officials. Jessop, Isaac Jeffs and Lyle Jeffs have been granted the legal right to challenge the sweeping search of the YFZ Ranch. * Isaac Jeffs, brother of FLDS sect leader Warren Jeffs, who with Merrill Jessop, filed the initial challenge to the search warrants. Isaac Jeffs was with his brother at the sect leader's Nevada arrest in 2006.

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_8941292

[mollymalone]

That might have been true in the past, but it seems to have resolved itself according to this April 17 article.

* Merrill Jessop, bishop for the FLDS at the YFZ Ranch, has served as the community's liaison with Texas officials. Jessop, Isaac Jeffs and Lyle Jeffs have been granted the legal right to challenge the sweeping search of the YFZ Ranch. * Isaac Jeffs, brother of FLDS sect leader Warren Jeffs, who with Merrill Jessop, filed the initial challenge to the search warrants. Isaac Jeffs was with his brother at the sect leader's Nevada arrest in 2006.

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_8941292
Thanks for the update on that! I hadn't gotten around to looking for anything further on that yet.

[mysteriew]

Allegedly this is from 'Uncle Warren' explaining marriage and the "priesthood" blessings. Advises women not to command their husbands.

He recites some of the marraige ceremony (page 3) and says they are legally and lawfully married.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2626430/Warren-Jeffs-Transcripts-Tape-10-FLDS

[mollymalone]

Allegedly this is from 'Uncle Warren' explaining marriage and the "priesthood" blessings. Advises women not to command their husbands.

He recites some of the marraige ceremony (page 3) and says they are legally and lawfully married.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2626430/Warren-Jeffs-Transcripts-Tape-10-FLDSWell now, if the women aren't to command the men, there goes that "choice" and the spin that the women can decide when to have relations with them. :rolleyes:

[mollymalone]

http://www.lufkindailynews.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/04/13/0413eldorado.html

It also appears some medical care is available at the compound.
Texas Medical Board records show the state awarded a physician's license in 2005 to Lloyd Barlow, whose Eldorado practice is listed at the same address as the ranch. Barlow graduated from the University of Utah School of Medicine in Salt Lake City, Texas records show.

Officials said about 50 adults remained on the ranch after Child Protective Services took the children — and 139 women who left voluntarily — to shelters. Thursday morning, Doyle took Collins, the school superintendent, for a plane ride over the compound to see what things looked like post-raid.
They saw dump trucks humming, pickups moving and women working in the fields "like nothing ever happened," Doyle said.

[mollymalone]

The FLDS attorney Parker

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00364.htm

Suzan Mazur: You've got Rodney Parker, FLDS's registered agent for the FLDS corporations. He's a former Bush I Associate Deputy Attorney General who was on the immediate staff of the Deputy Attorney General of the US from 1988-989. Parker's now an attorney with the Utah law firm Snow, Christensen and Martineau, which represents the state of Utah.

[mysteriew]

Molly, I am going to be going to bed. But on this old article you might want to check out the comments and links provided by "FlowerFlorida", it looks like some of the links we may not have- but I haven't time to look at them.
BTW, the article says the DNA results may not be in until June 5th.

Also, the commenter further down, "w8ting" provides more info on the auto accident.
"Allen Rulon Jeffs, age 3, son of Isaac and Zevanda Jeffs and a passenger in the vehicle, was pronounced dead at the Schleicher County Medical Center by Dr. Pat Johnson."
Another three year old critical, and another three year old as well as the woman driver was treated and released.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/21/breaking-news-dna-results-on-sect-children-may-5/

[mollymalone]

Molly, I am going to be going to bed. But on this old article you might want to check out the comments and links provided by "FlowerFlorida", it looks like some of the links we may not have- but I haven't time to look at them.
BTW, the article says the DNA results may not be in until June 5th.

Also, the commenter further down, "w8ting" provides more info on the auto accident.
"Allen Rulon Jeffs, age 3, son of Isaac and Zevanda Jeffs and a passenger in the vehicle, was pronounced dead at the Schleicher County Medical Center by Dr. Pat Johnson."
Another three year old critical, and another three year old as well as the woman driver was treated and released.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/21/breaking-news-dna-results-on-sect-children-may-5/G'nite! I'll ck out those links, thanks!
On that link there was a comment about the woman possibly being another escapee and FLDSExpert posted this:

FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.
No, Barbara Joy Jessop was not trying to escape. She was distracted by children, looked up and hit a boulder. The child that survived was injured by the air bag deploying. The mother of the dead child is Zevanda Jeffs. Zavenda was originally married to Rulon Jeffs, then re-assigned to Ron Rohback (the father of the child). When Ron was kicked out she was then re-assigned to Leroy Jeffs, until he was "kicked." She was then assigned to Isaac Jeffs. Barbara Joy Jeffs is also a wife of Isaac.

Posted by FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:30 p.m.
Sadly, the father of the dead child, Ron, was not allowed to go to the funeral to say his last farewells, because he still being shunned.

[Truly]

The FLDS attorney Parker

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00364.htm

Suzan Mazur: You've got Rodney Parker, FLDS's registered agent for the FLDS corporations. He's a former Bush I Associate Deputy Attorney General who was on the immediate staff of the Deputy Attorney General of the US from 1988-989. Parker's now an attorney with the Utah law firm Snow, Christensen and Martineau, which represents the state of Utah.

Holy chit. No wonder they never prosecuted.:furious:



Last week on these pages (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm) I cited a polygamy political coverup, which includes US Senator Orrin Hatch (Rep-UT), who is on record as condoning polygamy.

Says TAP co-founder Rowenna Erickson: "If Senator Hatch is supporting Utah's Attorney General Mark Shurleff's Safety Net Program, then there is a good chance federal funding is being used to enable polygamy and its crimes."l

Suzan Mazur: Why do you think he has not been more vocal on the issue?
Bob Curran: I don't think he has had to be. He's had a lot of cover.
Suzan Mazur: He counts on votes there in Washington County where the polygamists are most concentrated in Utah?
Bob Curran: His constituents and Senator Bob Bennett's, of course, are in Hildale, in Washington County, Utah. [The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints polygamists are headquartered on the Utah-Arizona border and incorporated in Utah as the United Effort Plan.] FLDS Colorado City, Arizona headquarters are part of Mohave County -- that would be Senator John McCain's and Senator John Kyl's territory. But they vote as a block there. They vote the way their prophet tells them.
Suzan Mazur: But they do vote.
Bob Curran: Oh yes they do. And there's a considerable block of votes for a candidate too in a small county.
Suzan Mazur: What's the Utah-Arizona FLDS population, 10,000 or so? Bob Curran: Exactly. What's interesting to me is why no one's really delving into the finances of it. They have tremendous resources in the polygamist community. They have all kinds of businesses. Interlocking directorships. Subsidiaries. They have crews [construction, trucking, etc.] going in all directions.

Suzan Mazur: You think campaign contributions have been going to Hatch and Bennett, also on the other side of the border to McCain and Kyl? They're not much on record about the polygamy issue, I've noticed. Bob Curran: That's right.

Suzan Mazur: McCain ducked two polygamy interviews with me - once for the cover of the Weekend Financial Times and then again for Scoop and CounterPunch.
Bob Curran: I don't know that much about the state of Arizona. But in the state of Utah there are only two reasons why the abuses could have gone on for so many years without being addressed. And this includes child protective services -- which falls under the prosecuting attorney's office. But most importantly, politicians.
Senator Hatch has been a very, very important senator.
So there are only two reasons why these abuses could have been allowed to go on all of this time. And that's if there were campaign contributions coming out of Hildale-Colorado City that would ensure no investigation, no one looking into the dirty little corners out there.
The other reason is that people in positions of authority - the sheriff, prosecuting attorney, etc. are members of the LDS church. And regardless of what the church says phony, baloney about excommunicating polygamists - all of these officials simply did not do their jobs for years and years and years. And in the wonderful state of family values, they sat on their hands. They knew these horrible terrible abuses were going on out there and chose to do nothing about them.

[Ladybass0711]

NEW TOTAL 462 kids

"As of Friday, the investigation had grown to 462 children as state officials determined that dozens of FLDS mothers thought to be adults are actually minors."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/27/sect-story-entails-new-perils/

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Holy chit. No wonder they never prosecuted.:furious:

lord ... Sweep it under the carpet ... with everything else that's been been "swept under the carpet". Can you image that "carpet" nowadays? It's no longer science-project of debris under there. It's land-reclamation that's created a hidden island accumulated by filth, lies, corruption, cults, drugs, guns, scandal, denial, money and blackmail. It's a global island being built, too. Ugh.

Lol, and this thread spreads faster than the Great Fire of London! Can't keep up and only 2 days ago I thought I was atop of it all.

[Seven]

K, I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that I would like to see cold hard proof that the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful. Again, I am not advocating for it, but I have seen a lot of speculation as to what life is like inside of the compound or the sect itself, but I have not see much that applies to this case, except evidence of underage marriage which I find personally abhorrent...there are lots of cultures outside of the US that function otherwise however.

Waterboarding babies, and the like-of course heinous behavior that needs to be punished severely and if the belief behind it is common, then the belief should be unlearned. . . .

I am very scared about generalizing the need to de-program beliefs that we don't like...i am not expressing myself well...does anyone understand what I mean?
Hi, believe09! :)

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Sorry, All. This has probably been posted a few times ... I just thought I'd submit in again on thread # 5 :crazy:

Snipped, edited and pasted from google:

CULT http://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+cult&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAE224AE226

1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

[Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel-1 in Indo-European roots.]
cultic, cultish adj. cultism n. cultist n.


As a Noun

1. cult - followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
2. cult - an interest followed with exaggerated zeal.
3. cult - followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or a falsely-created religion or sect; often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
4. cult - a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false;
5. cult - a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"


IMO: That criminal POS, Jeffs & "cronies" have, by their own devices, cultivated an illegal culture by depriving thousands of women their identity and rights, initially through false and methodical brainwashing followed by severe "sexual hypnosis" and have ordered them to instill this CULT's ways, unrecognized laws and way of life to their babies and children; outcasting young boys and the gross sexual, mental and social abuse of young girls.

The seemingly harsh "transition" is not the fault of American Society. It's because of these cult-leaders. It's unfair to the young, yes. But it has to be stopped and the pain of release is part of a cleaner, safer and more loving future for them all.

Options as to "how" to go about this are limited; nevertheless the children have been saved from further abuse. Some women welcome the :escape from it all". That's a positive step, IMO. The men? They have Jeffs and Co Inc (Inc for incarcerated) to thank. This is a MAN-made, unholy and immoral, defunct system. It is not Godly. Therein lies the real truth. I feel the authorities will be patient, understanding in their approach to these victims, and do so in a kind and responsible way - especially as the whole country is on the edge of their seats, watching.

Very sad status.

[golfmom]

G'nite! I'll ck out those links, thanks!
On that link there was a comment about the woman possibly being another escapee and FLDSExpert posted this:

FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.
No, Barbara Joy Jessop was not trying to escape. She was distracted by children, looked up and hit a boulder. The child that survived was injured by the air bag deploying. The mother of the dead child is Zevanda Jeffs. Zavenda was originally married to Rulon Jeffs, then re-assigned to Ron Rohback (the father of the child). When Ron was kicked out she was then re-assigned to Leroy Jeffs, until he was "kicked." She was then assigned to Isaac Jeffs. Barbara Joy Jeffs is also a wife of Isaac.

Posted by FLDSExpert on April 21, 2008 at 10:30 p.m.
Sadly, the father of the dead child, Ron, was not allowed to go to the funeral to say his last farewells, because he still being shunned.

Molly, I know that this is a grown adult woman, but I feel pity for her shuffled about being reassigned over and over.

It really struck me hard how women aren't even allowed their own salvation. By their beliefs, women's souls are hitched to their father/husband and only he permits them entry into heaven in the afterlife. If you don't stay sweet and please your husband/father, off to hell you'll go.

[Vegas Bride]

Molly, I know that this is a grown adult woman, but I feel pity for her shuffled about being reassigned over and over.

It really struck me hard how women aren't even allowed their own salvation. By their beliefs, women's souls are hitched to their father/husband and only he permits them entry into heaven in the afterlife. If you don't stay sweet and please your husband/father, off to hell you'll go.

The way it's been explained to me, the Mormon religion has it where the wife also is called into heaven by her husband, only getting to go there if he calls her. He does not call her by her legal name, but by her secret name which is given to her when they are married.
Can you imagine the power a man holds, he'd be able to tell his wife any time he felt like it that he would not call for her and she'd be denied heaven.

One thing I've wondered about is, what happens to a woman (young girl) if after they marry she does not cooporate and begin producing children? There is bound to be some who would have some type of fertility problems.

VB

[southcitymom]

Hi, believe09! :)

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

This is a noble post, Seven, and the intentions behind it honorable, I am sure. But there is danger in this way of thinking.

If we agree with the definition of discrimination against women posited in your post, many would say that mainstream Christian churches who do not allow women to hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church because the Bible says woman cannot teach men are doing this. Others would say that mainstream Christian churches who tell women it is a sin to use certain methods of birth control are doing this.

We can move from religion to religion and, in each one, we can find practices that some consider dangerous or abusive. How about performing a painful and medically unecessary medical procedure on the most sensitive part of an infant boy's body?

In a number of religions, homosexuals are told from birth that they cannot hope to go to heaven unless they deny an intrinisc part of their bodies and souls. This sounds similar to FDLS's contenion that "....a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven"

In my own church, underage people drink alcoholic communion wine every Sunday if they want and their parents allow it. This is clearly a practice and belief that is against the law in the USA.

I could go on and on - and I will if you want me to. My point is not to denigrate the practices of other faiths. My point is to say every faith in this world has some screwed up stuff about it in the eyes of some people (and its probably not unusual that the people who see these screwed up practices are not a member of that particluar faith).

I'll bet I could also find 6 aspects of the way of life that they are accustomed to that are beneficial to the FLDS - perhaps could even be beneficial to the rest of us.

Who gets to decide and based on what criterion that certain faiths are wrong and dangerous for XYZ reasons? This doesn't sound like religious freedom to me.

Please do not read this post to intimate that I believe adults anywhere (including in the FLDS) should have sex with and/or abuse children and not face the legal consequences of that. I clearly think that's wrong. In another thread, an Amish has been arrested for abuse and incest (and rumors of rampant abuse and incest have plaqued their faith and community for years), but we haven't gotten around to dismantling them yet.

What's happening in Texas to the FLDS may eventually be the best thing that ever happened to that community. But it should also scare the hell out of anyone who truly believes in religious freedom.

[golfmom]

Hi, believe09! :)

How about their belief in a practice that is against the law in the USA?

In addition to the fact that POLYGAMY is a human rights violation (according to the 1979 UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which defines discrimination against women as: ". . . any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.")*** . . . in addition to that .......

I can think of 6 aspects in which "the way of life they are accustomed to is harmful."
Can you think of ways in which a single one of them is not harmful?

1. Training from birth 50% of the children that they are subservient to, lesser than, must obey the other 50%.

2. Not educating children (except for a select few) past the 8th grade.

3. Training from birth that a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven, thereby leaving at least 2/3 of the male population without a wife and without any hope of heaven.

4. Training from birth that no matter what she does or doesn't do in life, a female cannot attain heaven unless her "husband" says she can.

5. The inbreeding in this closed society (50% are descendants from the original 2 families--Jessop and Barlow @ 1930) has produced an incomparably high incidence of a serious birth defect known as "fumarase deficiency."

6. Being expected to give birth to one child per year.

Thank you.
Seven

*** http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

Seven, I had to re-read your post several times to absorb it. Outstanding job! I know that some would like to separate the idea of polygamy versus child abuse. But, I strongly believe that polygamy IS abusive and you did a much better job at explaining why it is abusive than I've ever come close to.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[IrishMist]

This is a noble post, Seven, and the intentions behind it honorable, I am sure. But there is danger in this way of thinking.

If we agree with the definition of discrimination against women posited in your post, many would say that mainstream Christian churches who do not allow women to hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church because the Bible says woman cannot teach men are doing this. Others would say that mainstream Christian churches who tell women it is a sin to use certain methods of birth control are doing this.

We can move from religion to religion and, in each one, we can find practices that some consider dangerous or abusive. How about performing a painful and medically unecessary medical procedure on the most sensitive part of an infant boy's body?

In a number of religions, homosexuals are told from birth that they cannot hope to go to heaven unless they deny an intrinisc part of their bodies and souls. This sounds similar to FDLS's contenion that "....a man must have a minimum of 3 wives in order to attain heaven"

In my own church, underage people drink alcoholic communion wine every Sunday if they want and their parents allow it. This is clearly a practice and belief that is against the law in the USA.

I could go on and on - and I will if you want me to. My point is not to denigrate the practices of other faiths. My point is to say every faith in this world has some screwed up stuff about it in the eyes of some people (and its probably not unusual that the people who see these screwed up practices are not a member of that particluar faith).

I'll bet I could also find 6 aspects of the way of life that they are accustomed to that are beneficial to the FLDS - perhaps could even be beneficial to the rest of us.

Who gets to decide and based on what criterion that certain faiths are wrong and dangerous for XYZ reasons? This doesn't sound like religious freedom to me.

Please do not read this post to intimate that I believe adults anywhere (including in the FLDS) should have sex with and/or abuse children and not face the legal consequences of that. I clear