Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Ladybass0711]

Ok I am taking the initiative to start a new thread Continuing from here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63613&page=38)

[SewingDeb]

Thanks Ladybass!

[mollymalone]

Fairy1

Not really. He's no different than any other criminal who wishes to appear "insane." I seriously doubt Warren Jeffs believes he will be incarcerated for long, but he's smart enough to hedge his bets.
He might be thinking that when it comes time for his parole hearing in November 2010 that he'll get out. Just because he gets a hearing doesn't mean he's going anywhere.

[LionRun]

Ok I am taking the initiative to start a new thread Continuing from here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63613&page=38)

Thank once again Ladybass:blowkiss:. And, thank you for all that you have contributed to case discussion here:).

Lion

[Leila]

Thanks Ladybass! :)

[Leila]

Fairy1

Not really. He's no different than any other criminal who wishes to appear "insane." I seriously doubt Warren Jeffs believes he will be incarcerated for long, but he's smart enough to hedge his bets.
He might be thinking that when it comes time for his parole hearing in November 2010 that he'll get out. Just because he gets a hearing doesn't mean he's going anywhere.

Molly,
The more I read of Warren Jeffs, the more convinced I am that this man is nothing more than a common criminal.

Does anyone know how it's handled if Warren Jeffs is convicted of the charges in the Arizona case? Will he serve his sentence in Utah, and when he's eventually paroled be turned over to Arizona to begin serving his sentence there? Or will the Utah and Arizona courts agree to Jeffs serving his sentences concurrent in one state, or consecutive in one state?

[FlowerChild]

Replying to SuzieQ in the last thread....

I realize there are some very distinct differences in the mainstream LDS faith and the splinter FLDS "Faith" - but I did want to point out that the premises Warren Jeffs is "selling" to his flock are based in the Book of Mormon and the history of the faith - starting with Joseph Smith and his many wives. Brigham Young may have been the one to WRITE the "Polygamy doctrine" (or reveal the revelation), but it was Joseph Smith who DID IT FIRST - and declared plural celestial marriage a requirement for becoming "Gods and Goddesses" in the afterlife...much to the dismay of his 1st (and only legal) wife. Warren Jeffs has used these early writings to fortify his position that Mainstream Mormons are the ones who have it all wrong and they (the FLDS) are the TRUE faithful - and the ONLY ones who will be going to heaven - because the LDS Church has supposedly turned it's back on the REAL TRUTH as revealed to Joseph Smith and his "apostles". Jeff's words are, like the best "cons and lies", built on a base of truth - giving his teachings that essential aura of respectability and legitimacy. And you know, I think at some point he got drunk on the power - pretty heady stuff for a nerdy, wimpy, unattractive little man... more and more power (and adoration, and yes "worship") made him believe his own BS... in his words, LDS members are referred to as "gentiles" by the FLDS - along with the rest of us...who are also "infidels". It's like Warren really thinks he is creating a new Israel with the FLDS - and maybe he has begun to think himself the modern "Jesus" - persecuted, imprisoned, punished (crucified in a way) by the heathens and the "beast" for his faith.....

Warren Jeffs (and his father Rulon Jeffs and his main Apostle Merril Jessop who is in charge at YFZ Ranch) have corrupted and distorted the Book of Mormon - as well as the history of the faith and Joseph Smith's story to support twisted, cruel, abusive beliefs and teachings. Like other intelligent and totally whacko "Leaders" before him (Charles Manson, Jim Jones et al) - Jeffs cleverly and deliberately distorted, took out of context, edited and convoluted selected parts and history of an established faith to make it FIT his vision and give him more control over his followers. He is very persuasive in a passive-aggressive way - his lectures sound so benign in tone and he appears so non-threatening (like Mr Rogers)- and yet the content chills me to the bone. And he goes into such long, protracted detail about every utterance made by the founders on polygamy (and so convoluted and boring) - and then suddenly goes off on a tangent and twists it all into some horrid edict of his it was NEVER intended to support. His egomanical delusions of grandeur and obvious enjoyment and pleasure in having total control over every aspect of every member's lives is clear - that monotone, emotionless voice sounds like it was born in the iciest heart in the depths of some black and festering place - where he (and the "men") create their own little piece of hell on earth for women and children.
My Opinion
Some background (excerpts)from Carolyn Jessop's book "Escape"
FLDS Beliefs
Page 17: The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy. Members, like the 19th century Mormons, believe that "[a] man must have multiple wives if he expects to do well in heaven, where he can eventually become a god and wind up with his own planet." Not every man marries multiple wives; being encouraged to take more than three signifies that you're considered important by the leaders of the community.
Page 25: In a favorite children's game, called Apocalypse, kids act out the FLDS vision of the end of the world. According to FLDS lore, Native Americans who were mistreated and killed in pioneer days will be resurrected in the end times, when God will allow them to wreak vengeance on those who wronged them - by killing FLDS enemies with invisible tomahawks that can sever a person's heart in half.
Page 37: Carolyn, who grew up in the FLDS communities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, was educated in a "public school," but the teachers and students, like the rest of the area community, were almost exclusively FLDS members. They were taught that dinosaurs never existed and man never landed on the moon.
Prophet Motives
Pages 72-73: The community's rules changed as different leaders—called prophets—established different priorities. When Carolyn was 18, the prophet was a man called Uncle Roy, who gave her permission to attend college, an honor granted to very few girls in the community. But there was one major caveat: In order to do so, Carolyn had to marry Merril Jessop, a 50-year-old man with a reputation for cruelty who already had three wives.
Page 313: When Uncle Roy died in 1986, a man called Uncle Rulon took over. But Rulon was elderly and frail, and his favored son, Warren Jeffs, held the reins for many years. Carolyn says that marrying off underage girls was relatively rare before Rulon: "When Uncle Rulon first came to power, girls didn't marry until they were over twenty. After his first stroke, the age dropped into the late teens. The sicker he got, the younger the brides in the community became."
Page 234: As the FLDS leadership became increasingly radicalized, Uncle Rulon began to discuss blood atonement, a draconian punishment for anyone who committed "immoral" acts for which there could be no forgiveness … such as fornication and adultery." Blood atonement, Carolyn explains, is "murder": The sinner submits to being killed as punishment for his or her crimes.
Bad Medicine
Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery.
Page 231: Uncle Rulon "began preaching that anyone who needed medical help to heal was a person of little faith. A person in harmony with God could heal him or herself with fasting and prayer
Page 275: Merril blamed Carolyn when their seventh child became gravely ill: "You can take him to every damn doctor you can find, but no one will be able to heal him. God is going to destroy his life because of the sins of his mother."
Warren Jeffs
Pages 216, 223, 231, and 234: As Rulon's deputy, Jeffs banned the color red; movies, television, and the Internet ("except for business purposes"); clothing with "large prints" or plaid; immunizations; and sex not for procreation.
Page 197: The Jeffs family had "a rigid rule … against becoming obese.
Pages 324-325: Jeffs began to kick young boys out of the community—"more than a hundred teenage boys" within a month's span, at one point—for crimes like "listening to CDs, watching movies, or kissing girls.
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/pagenum/all/

[FlowerChild]

Where does the FLDS find all those women?

-that each man partners with at least three women—is essential to salvation. How does the church get enough ladies to go around?The FLDS doesn't recruit from outside the ranks (http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ050604b.html). To reduce competition for wives, the church systematically expels adolescent boys
-It's estimated that the FLDS has thrown out between 400 and 1,400 male members in the last decade.Church elders excommunicate boys as young as 14 ostensibly for bad behavior—like flirting with girls, watching a movie, listening to rock music, drinking, playing basketball, or wearing short-sleeve shirts
-The sect also expels married men who violate religious tenets. After the wrongdoer leaves, the church leader reassigns his wives to loyalists. In theory, those who repent in earnest can be reunited with their families. In practice, almost no one is allowed back.
- Warren Jeffs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs), president of the priesthood from 2002 to 2007, is thought to have more than 50 children and at least 40 wives. When his father, Rulon Jeffs (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629320), died in 2002, he left behind an estimated 75 widows and 65 children.
http://www.slate.com/id/2189181/

[Mygirlsadie]

I heard when Warren Jeffs was arrested he was found in a Cadillac Escalade SUV eating a McDonals meal.. I wonder if his ''people'' knew this?

[Leila]

I heard when Warren Jeffs was arrested he was found in a Cadillac Escalade SUV eating a McDonals meal.. I wonder if his ''people'' knew this?

Here's a link to an article on Warren Jeffs arrest:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038

[DawnTCB]

Warren Jeffs
Pages 216, 223, 231, and 234: As Rulon's deputy, Jeffs banned the color red; (above from FlowerChild's excerpts of Carolyn Jessop's book).

The red Cadillac Escalade he was found in contained the trappings of a fugitive life, a well-heeled fugitive. (from above link to information about his capture).

This just made me snicker this morning. :crazy:

And as a part-time artist I wonder, how does one go about banning a color???

[Mygirlsadie]

Good God!! He sure wasn't living the ''prarie life'' now was he? I wonder what the Ipods were for? Big faker...





Here's a link to an article on Warren Jeffs arrest:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038

[golfmom]

This is Kathy Jo Nicholson blog, she grew up with many of the women at Eldorado and attended school at Alta Academy.

http://outofpolygamy.wordpress.com/

I’ve spent some time looking back over old Alta Academy year books. Most of the women from YFZ that you see in the media attended or taught at Alta. Warren Jeffs at that time was the headmaster of the school. Some of the women became his wives. I see their faces in the yearbooks and I ask myself, “What would they be like today if they had the same opportunity to be removed that the YFZ children now have?

Many people comment on how emotionless the women appear. This occurs over a lifetime of sacrificing your feelings for the sake of “the Work” or “the Principle”. Warren Jeffs used to come up behind me, grab me by the scruff of my neck and give it a very tight squeeze. “Are you keeping sweet?” He’d ask in a low voice.

[southcitymom]

Replying to SuzieQ in the last thread....

I realize there are some very distinct differences in the mainstream LDS faith and the splinter FLDS "Faith" - but I did want to point out that the premises Warren Jeffs is "selling" to his flock are based in the Book of Mormon and the history of the faith - starting with Joseph Smith and his many wives. Brigham Young may have been the one to WRITE the "Polygamy doctrine" (or reveal the revelation), but it was Joseph Smith who DID IT FIRST - and declared plural celestial marriage a requirement for becoming "Gods and Goddesses" in the afterlife...much to the dismay of his 1st (and only legal) wife. Warren Jeffs has used these early writings to fortify his position that Mainstream Mormons are the ones who have it all wrong and they (the FLDS) are the TRUE faithful - and the ONLY ones who will be going to heaven - because the LDS Church has supposedly turned it's back on the REAL TRUTH as revealed to Joseph Smith and his "apostles". Jeff's words are, like the best "cons and lies", built on a base of truth - giving his teachings that essential aura of respectability and legitimacy. And you know, I think at some point he got drunk on the power - pretty heady stuff for a nerdy, wimpy, unattractive little man... more and more power (and adoration, and yes "worship") made him believe his own BS... in his words, LDS members are referred to as "gentiles" by the FLDS - along with the rest of us...who are also "infidels". It's like Warren really thinks he is creating a new Israel with the FLDS - and maybe he has begun to think himself the modern "Jesus" - persecuted, imprisoned, punished (crucified in a way) by the heathens and the "beast" for his faith.....

Excellent post, FlowerChild - I simply edited for space. Everything religious leaders sell is based on some religious work (Bible, Torah, BOM, etc...) and this does lead credence and legitimacy to some pretty outlandish behavior and contentions. Some of the most brutal religious leaders in the world offer their flock just enough to truth to be dangerous and this small sliver of truth literally has the power to lead people into twisted and perverse systems of faith.

I also agree the maxim that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" sums up Jeffs to a tee.

[SuziQ]

FlowerChild, I agree with everything about Prophets. Prophets are a scary concept IMO. We'll have to agree to disagree about the Polygamy doctrine though. There is too much evidence to prove that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist nor had a polygamy revelation. If he was a polygamist, then why did he not father any children with his supposed plural wives? Because they were married to the same men Joseph Smith was trying to expel from the church at the time of his death for practicing polygamy. The way they fired back was to claim that Joseph also practiced polygamy. How dare Joseph try to expel them for polygamy when he was one himself. One of Joseph's accusers was Brigham Young. When asked who Josephs wives were, the accusers had their own wives say they were Josephs plural wives.

Up until his death all of Joseph's speaches, the restoration of the gospel (Book of Mormon), published papers and the way he lived, spoke against polygamy. However after his death, the supposed revelations were revealed and entered into Doctrine and Covenants and his supposed wives had themselves sealed to him in (1850?). How convenient when a dead man can't dispute or defend himself.

From your post above:
FLDS Beliefs
Page 17: The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy. Members, like the 19th century Mormons, believe that "[a] man must have multiple wives if he expects to do well in heaven, where he can eventually become a god and wind up with his own planet." Not every man marries multiple wives; being encouraged to take more than three signifies that you're considered important by the leaders of the community.
******
Those are the beliefs of the men that Joseph Smith was trying to expel from the church for practicing polygamy. Other than "someone said so", there is no proof that that revelation came from Joseph Smith. The FLDS can claim they are Mormons all they want, but it does not make it so.

IMO a better comparison to the FLDS, especially Jeffs, is not the LDS church and the Book of Mormon, but rather Brigham Young himself. He did not practice the true Book of Mormon, but rather changed and amended the later books to justify his own criminal actions. Also IMO, Brigham Young is an unfortunate chapter of the LDS church history. I've been asking around about Brigham Young and I've been told that he simply is not discussed and not part of any teachings.

[FlowerChild]

I love seeing the articles and blogs by former members of the FLDS popping up. The quiet revolution of women who escaped the FLDS is growing - and offering the WORLD valuable insight into the seamy, hidden repression that keeps women and children living an a communal prison without emotion, free will, or joy. And make no mistake - those women and children ARE PRISONERS in a pastel, organic, quiet world where their emotions, thoughts and spirits are as smothered as their bodies in 3 layers of religious clothing and salvation depends on "keeping sweet" and obeying a man (or men) without question.

They ALL say the same things - no matter where they were or what their life inside was life or at what age they left. They tell the same stories, recite the same rules, regurgitate the same litany of brainwashing techniques...and often such cruelty at the hands of Warren Jeffs himself IN PERSON - as well as by his followers like Jessop and Warren's brothers.

I will never hear the word "Sweet" again and not feel the cold wave of hate and pain that word became for thousands of children and women in the FLDS. All I can think of now is Warren Jeffs and hear that low, monotone voice saying "Keep Sweet" "Stay Clean" and enter into "Celestial Plural Marriage" where you will have such a perfect life and your husband will train you properly to obey obey obey - oh, and how to wear your hair.

No WONDER there are no smiles, no laughter, and no tears - What is there to smile or laugh about? There is no joy, no hope and no love - and my oh my, the tears of those women must have dried up eons ago.

Thank goodness for the overwhelming HUMAN SPIRIT! For the inborn drive to LIVE! For the STRENGTH inside us to fight when we think we can fight no more. For every 10 woman and girls that are crushed and broken under the FLDS hammer there are one or two who will NOT be broken and keep rising up every day and reaching for hope where it seems there is none.

And won't it be a beautiful sunny, noisy, day, filled with joy and laughter and freedom when because of those who Warren Jeffs punished, REJECTED, and pushed out and excised from their families and their lives for not being "good enough" or "sweet enough" or "obedient enough" triumph by breaking the chains off perhaps a generation (or two) of FLDS children and teenagers (and perhaps even some of their mothers) setting them free from tyranny and mind control FOREVER. Children are not naturally ROBOTS and given the chance to turn toward the sun, to feel joy (and yes, even tears) - I don't think they will ever be able to forget that freedom - and it's funny how that tiny chink - where light came in, grows and pushes and fights in the dark of a broken soul just keeps spreading and shining - brighter and brighter until no-one can deny it's power or it's truth. One child, one small child, can change the WORLD!


My Opinion

[SuziQ]

Good God!! He sure wasn't living the ''prarie life'' now was he? I wonder what the Ipods were for? Big faker...

I think Ipods were allowed as long as Jeffs sermons were the only thing listened to on them. Wouldn't you love to know what Jeffs really had downloaded on his Ipod? Hmmm, maybe some Britney Spears? lol.

[SuziQ]

I will never hear the word "Sweet" again and not feel the cold wave of hate and pain that word became for thousands of children and women in the FLDS.


I have the same feelings. I can't imagine what affect the words "keep sweet" have on his former members.

[golfmom]

- Warren Jeffs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs), president of the priesthood from 2002 to 2007, is thought to have more than 50 children and at least 40 wives. When his father, Rulon Jeffs (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629320), died in 2002, he left behind an estimated 75 widows and 65 children.
http://www.slate.com/id/2189181/

One of Warren's first acts was to marry some of his father's widows. As a matter of fact, he was captured with one of them.

[SewingDeb]

According to one blog or article I read. He married all of his father's widows and they had no choice in the matter. They considered themselves his mothers so it was like being forced to be married to your son.

Didn't his father have 75 widows? I read that online recently too.

[mollymalone]

Molly,
The more I read of Warren Jeffs, the more convinced I am that this man is nothing more than a common criminal.

Does anyone know how it's handled if Warren Jeffs is convicted of the charges in the Arizona case? Will he serve his sentence in Utah, and when he's eventually paroled be turned over to Arizona to begin serving his sentence there? Or will the Utah and Arizona courts agree to Jeffs serving his sentences concurrent in one state, or consecutive in one state?
From what I read once Utah's sentence is served AZ gets him, although we'll hear more about that depending on if he's convicted in AZ and depending on sentencing there. He's got two consecutive five year sentences to life and his parole hearing is November 2010 in Utah.

"Everyone with a first-degree sex offense has a hearing after three years automatically," said Jim Hatch, parole board spokesman. "It's pursuant to our administrative rules." "The hearing does not mean Jeffs would be released from prison at that time. Instead, it is his first chance to appear before the parole board, which reviews his presentence report, criminal history and guidelines on how much time he could serve. There is also input from the Utah Department of Corrections, and victims of a crime are allowed to speak at the hearing."

[mollymalone]

According to one blog or article I read. He married all of his father's widows and they had no choice in the matter. They considered themselves his mothers so it was like being forced to be married to your son.

Didn't his father have 75 widows? I read that online recently too.The reports of how many widows there were seems to fluctuate between 60 and 75, and one journalist called Warren the man with 80 wives. Regardless, there were a lot. All of his father's wives were married to him with the exception of 2. One seized the opportunity and left the FLDS immediately and the other point blank refused. Warren was furious and sent her back to her father with the edict that she would never be allowed to remarry.

[FlowerChild]

Well geeze - he has only 40 or so wives now - did he give some away? Put some "out to pasture"? I mean what do you do with ones "old wives"? The one he got arrested with was only in her mid-30's - probably "middle aged" in the FLDS World. Maybe like horses, you "stable" the young fillies with an experienced "brood mare" to keep them calm and "sweet" in your absence. I mean Warren was a busy man and even with 40 wives (and not 75) it must have been hard to "wrangle" the whole bunch on his own with constantly bringing in new younger "stock" and all.

And yeah - Warren, his brother and the "wife" in the "RED" Cadillac Escalade were NOT dressed in "prairie chic" and were NOT wearing the long underwear and 3 layers of clothing - they were wearing SHORTS and eating Fast Food and had several cell phones, computers and iPods with them...along with over $50K in cash - caught "leaving Las Vegas". The had been "on the run" for over 100 days when caught.

Yes...they (snicker) indeed got "caught" with their "protective underwear" down.....

My Opinion

[mysteriew]

According to one blog or article I read. He married all of his father's widows and they had no choice in the matter. They considered themselves his mothers so it was like being forced to be married to your son.

Didn't his father have 75 widows? I read that online recently too.

Does that mean he did marry his biological mother?

How many biological children is Jeffs reported to have?

[pooky169]

I have enough problems keeping up with 1 husband. That is just crazy!!!!!

[SewingDeb]

The reports of how many widows there were seems to fluctuate between 60 and 75, and one journalist called Warren the man with 80 wives. Regardless, there were a lot. All of his father's wives were married to him with the exception of 2. One seized the opportunity and left the FLDS immediately and the other point blank refused. Warren was furious and sent her back to her father with the edict that she would never be allowed to remarry.

Yes, I remember that about the two now that you mention it. The one was smart to leave while the getting was good.

[SewingDeb]

Does that mean he did marry his biological mother?

I'm don't know...wondering the same thing.

How many biological children is Jeffs reported to have?

That's a good question too.

[SewingDeb]

Texas appellate court set to hear appeal

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- A Texas appeals court this morning agreed to hear arguments on whether the state can place more than 400 FLDS children into foster homes without giving their families individual hearings.
In a motion filed yesterday with the Third Court of Appeals in Austin, Texas RioGrande Legal Aid attorneys representing 48 FLDS mothers are seeking to halt foster care placements of FLDS children until their case can be heard. They want District Judge Barbara Walther to hold hearings at which each family would be able to respond to allegations of abuse.
"These families have the right to have their voices heard in the legal process," said attorney Robert Doggett in a statement released this morning. "The idea that these children can be taken away without giving their families the opportunity to address allegations and fight to stay together is absurd."

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_9039576

[SewingDeb]

My question about the appeal is what happens in the thousands of cases where children are removed from their homes by CPS? I thought there was a hearing. The problem is they don't know which child belongs to which parents until the DNA comes back and that's the parents' fault. Things would be much better if each set of parents had claimed their own children. Then individual allegations could be made.

What do y'all think of this appeal?

[Linda7NJ]

My question about the appeal is what happens in the thousands of cases where children are removed from their homes by CPS? I thought there was a hearing. The problem is they don't know which child belongs to which parents until the DNA comes back and that's the parents' fault. Things would be much better if each set of parents had claimed their own children. Then individual allegations could be made.

What do y'all think of this appeal?


Not much. When I was a foster parent I encountered two children that should have never been removed from their parents...it still took 6 months to straighten everything out. The system is usually very very slow.

[SewingDeb]

Not much. When I was a foster parent I encountered two children that should have never been removed from their parents...it still took 6 months to straighten everything out. The system is usually very very slow.

That's what I figured. Why do the FLDS parents expect more than any other parent gets from the system once the children are taken?

[SewingDeb]

Judge budges, won't split up moms, babies
Infants age 12 months and under should stay with mothers, she says

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9036404

Not sure if this is new news but it is dated today.

[Ladybass0711]

Reposting

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...273157,00.html (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273157,00.html)

Reid asks AG to review federal efforts regarding polygamous communities

[FlowerChild]

My question about the appeal is what happens in the thousands of cases where children are removed from their homes by CPS? I thought there was a hearing. The problem is they don't know which child belongs to which parents until the DNA comes back and that's the parents' fault. Things would be much better if each set of parents had claimed their own children. Then individual allegations could be made.

What do y'all think of this appeal?

The state of Texas is NOT going to return those children without knowing WHO their BIO PARENTS are. That will take AT LEAST a month AND the full cooperation of the parents. I don't care HOW MANY appeals and hearings they have - they KIDS themselves do not even know (or will not tell) who their own MOTHERS are so HOW can children be returned? Any one of the "Mothers" can show up and SAY "these" are my children but they appear not to have birth certificates or any "legal" (acceptable to the state) verification of parenthood of their children. And even when they DO have verification of MOTHERHOOD - there is the question of PATERNITY and IF the father is found to have also fathered a baby with one of the 14-17 year old girls and the MOTHER does not agree to LEAVE the father and have NO FURTHER CONTACT - then again, they are NOT GOING TO GIVE HER THE KIDS. It's not just about parental rights here, its about living in an environment where abuse is encouraged and condoned by the ENTIRE community. Isolated and cut off, the children have no protection and I am sure the authorities KNOW that by just giving the children back it is VERY LIKELY that the whole family will disappear into Mexico or Canada forever . Once they let go of those children, they must know from HISTORY with this group in other places they may NEVER see them again - and I cannot see any family court acting to reunite families under those circumstances. It would be CLEARLY putting the kids AT RISK - and on the state's watch. The STATE would get the blame and take the heat for NOT DOING THEIR JOB, in front of the WORLD - who are watching this very closely. Lots of scrutiny.

The FLDS Lawyers can run up billable hours and spend a lot of time in court - but I don't believe they have any chance of budging the State of Texas on this one. Now that THEY have the children and know even MORE of the facts of this group, they aren't going to let them go without a fight - and some set-in-stone continued oversight and restrictions over the kids (and their home-life) into the future.

My Opinion

[Floh]

I thought the Eldorado compound had emptied when they all did a moonlight flit a couple of days ago?

where are those claiming the children as theirs?

[ljwf22]

I've read that Warren Jeffs has spawned over 100 kids. And I think the redheaded mom who asked the reporter "Do you know the meaning of Zion?" is one of them. She looks like him.

And you're right, FlowerChild, how can one hand over a child to a person who claims to be the parent.

[Leila]

Good God!! He sure wasn't living the ''prarie life'' now was he? I wonder what the Ipods were for? Big faker...

From all appearances, Warren Jeffs is to some extent a faker. While in the FLDS community he acts the role of pious prophet, but outside the community, he shucks the trappings of that pious life and lives like anyone else - driving a red car, and having all the luxuries of modern living. If other reports are accurate - that he was wearing burmuda shorts - then one would have to assume he wasn't wearing the long holy underwear of the sect.

[golfmom]

From all appearances, Warren Jeffs is to some extent a faker. While in the FLDS community he acts the role of pious prophet, but outside the community, he shucks the trappings of that pious life and lives like anyone else - driving a red car, and having all the luxuries of modern living. If other reports are accurate - that he was wearing burmuda shorts - then one would have to assume he wasn't wearing the long holy underwear of the sect.

Somewhere I posted a website that had photos of him when he was arrested. He was wearing burmuda shorts and his wife (daddy's youngest wife) was wearing LEVIs!

[Pepper]

Somewhere I posted a website that had photos of him when he was arrested. He was wearing burmuda shorts and his wife (daddy's youngest wife) was wearing LEVIs!

Hypocrite :furious:

[Leila]

From what I read once Utah's sentence is served AZ gets him, although we'll hear more about that depending on if he's convicted in AZ and depending on sentencing there. He's got two consecutive five year sentences to life and his parole hearing is November 2010 in Utah.

"Everyone with a first-degree sex offense has a hearing after three years automatically," said Jim Hatch, parole board spokesman. "It's pursuant to our administrative rules." "The hearing does not mean Jeffs would be released from prison at that time. Instead, it is his first chance to appear before the parole board, which reviews his presentence report, criminal history and guidelines on how much time he could serve. There is also input from the Utah Department of Corrections, and victims of a crime are allowed to speak at the hearing."

Thanks Molly.............I know the rule of thumb is that most prisoners do not get a parole the first time before a parole board, and some may go through many parole hearings before finally getting parole. I hope that in this case, the state of Utah will keep Warren Jeffs for many years.

[mollymalone]

That's what I figured. Why do the FLDS parents expect more than any other parent gets from the system once the children are taken?They're trying to take advantage of any possible avenue they can. They think they should be treated special because they are being "persecuted." I agree with FlowerChild, it isn't going to happen fast. If they can't be bothered to step up to the plate and verify which child is BIOLOGICALLY theirs, then they obviously don't care enough about the child/children as they claim. The more they hamper the investigation by their piddly arsed games with names, birthdates etc. the less likely they're going to achieve their goals.

[mollymalone]

Thanks Molly.............I know the rule of thumb is that most prisoners do not get a parole the first time before a parole board, and some may go through many parole hearings before finally getting parole. I hope that in this case, the state of Utah will keep Warren Jeffs for many years.If not Utah perhaps AZ. Even if he serves the full two five year terms thats 10, he was 51? when sentenced. That puts him at 71, he'd still be a serious threat to the sect's welfare. Add in any sentence he might get in AZ that could keep him in prison for life.

He was sentenced to two consecutive 5 year terms to life. Does that mean the state of Utah could keep him for life, denying parole even if he beats the rap in AZ?

EDITED TO ADD: Answered my own question!! "11/20/2007: Warren Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive prison terms of five years to life. "It will be up to the Utah parole board to decide how long he actually stays behind bars." Source: SFGate.com"

[Floh]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again? :confused:

[mollymalone]

Well geeze - he has only 40 or so wives now - did he give some away? Put some "out to pasture"? I mean what do you do with ones "old wives"? The one he got arrested with was only in her mid-30's - probably "middle aged" in the FLDS World. Maybe like horses, you "stable" the young fillies with an experienced "brood mare" to keep them calm and "sweet" in your absence. SNIP
I read that the older wives who were no longer in favor concentrated on their husband's ascendancy. The (legal) first wives wield the most power over the other wives and there is jockeying for position between the others. Your analogy is pretty apt. That's why we saw the most trusted women spinning the pr. They can be trusted not to bolt from the stable and to tell on the others if they stop being "sweet."

Found this:
"Although the actual number of wives is unknown, it is estimated that Warren Steed Jeffs has between 40 and 70 wives. It is believed that approximately 12 of these women were married to his father. It is thought that Jeffs has approximately 56 children."

[Leila]

My question about the appeal is what happens in the thousands of cases where children are removed from their homes by CPS? I thought there was a hearing. The problem is they don't know which child belongs to which parents until the DNA comes back and that's the parents' fault. Things would be much better if each set of parents had claimed their own children. Then individual allegations could be made.

What do y'all think of this appeal?

How can there be any individual hearings if the FLDS won't cooperate in the DNA testing?

Even in the short history of this case, the FLDS has been uncooperative. The women who initially accompanied the children refused to give accurate information and were in contact with the men via cell phone as to what they should say.

I feel the state of Texas and CPS is doing the right thing in demanding DNA testing to assure that if any children were to be returned, they're returned to the parents and not some "caretaker." There's just too many reports of children who were sent, without their parents, to the YFZ ranch and place in the care of other families there.

[mollymalone]

In most of the pics I've seen of Jeffs he's got a semi-smirk on his face but this is the first time I'd run across one where he's smiling. Since he's dealing with apostates his smile looks like it's one of those cheesy fake ones. IMO
http://i.abcnews.com/TheLaw/story?id=3656629&page=1

[SewingDeb]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again? :confused:

Who knows? I'm not even sure they left or if those were rumors.

The attorneys are doing the appeals.

[SewingDeb]

Leila and Flowerchild, you both think like me on this issue. They should have claimed their children from the beginning without the lies.

[mollymalone]

It's reasonable to assume that some of the men may have quietly slipped away to other areas especially if they are among those who are well aware of the possibility of being prosecuted for various issues. The men that we've seen or heard from on tv or in articles don't seem to be anyone among the upper hierarchy. Merrill Jessop or the rest seem to be absent. Whether they are still on the ranch or not remains to be seen. I'd be interested to see a count of those those who were ordered to submit to DNA and how many of them did.

"Warren Jeffs scattered and mixed up hundreds of women and children — taking more than 20 of the younger girls for himself."

[gitana1]

Check out this link. Hopefully no one has posted it and I'm not just repeating. It's a strange remix of the polygamist women talking to the media. Very catchy and funny but with some inexplicable president Bush references. Anyhow, I thought it was hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tICf7MaXyKs

[Leila]

Question for all...................

I think we're all agreed that this case is likely to be lengthy. The children removed from the YFZ ranch in Texas are likely to remain in the custody of the state for a long time pending investigations and hearings.

There's children of all ages in the state's custody, ranging from newborn up to age 18. Let's hypothetically say the children are in the care of the state for a least a year.

What will happen if during that time some of the children decide they don't want to return to the FLDS? They may miss their mothers but enjoy the freedoms they experience in the outside world. I think this may be especially true of young teens. Younger children will easily adapt to outside influences too.

[gitana1]

ljwf22: I think the redhead is one of Merril Jessop's daughter. I saw Carolyn Jessop on tv talking about her and identifying her as such. I believe she might be one of Warren's wives. I think that Carolyn said Merril married her off to Jeffs, but I'm not sure.

[FlowerChild]

Have the FLDS members who reportedly left Eldorado now turned up again? :confused:

At last report about 2 dozen of the FLDS members have appeared in Eldorado for DNA testing - out of what - well over 100 adults? So no, it appears that right now the majority are not "there" - where they are might be the better question. And will THEY (the FLDS Members) show up in court, or just their LAWYERS? It's like they want all of this "action" but only if they don't have to appear in person to facilitate it. I don't think they accept that this isn't something they can do from afar and maintain their "privacy" and segregation from the outside world. They seem to do a lot of TALKING and posting online and appearing in the media when it suits their needs (and they can control it) but when they have to step up and face real questions - and provide FACTUAL, VERIFIABLE answers, they retreat into their shells and whine about persecution and DO NOTHING.

The majority of FLDS members from YFZ Ranch have apparently scattered - to somewhere. I am sure ONLY the members who they are SURE have no "issues" remain at the Ranch. The FLDS will use those members to try and ramrod the authorities - but it isn't going to resolve more than a few of the custody/parental issues. The remaining members cannot do anything to change the results for the REST of the members who cannot (or will not) stand up and be DNA tested. I can almost guarantee that the FLDS is trying it's hardest to get BIO PARENTS lined up for the hearings - even if they had to MOVE THEM IN from other compounds. Again - they will use lies and deceit to attempt to manipulate the authorities. The mothers will come forward and present the "fathers" of their kids, even if she hasn't lived with him for years and is now "married/sealed" to some child rapist. And as soon as "they" get custody - all bets are off as to where the kids actually live and with whom. There are dozens of children who have been removed from their bio parents and given to FLDS members at YFZ - those kids may not have any memory of their actual mothers/fathers at ALL. It would be like giving the kids to total strangers. This whole thing is going to turn into a clusterfunk because NOTHING about these people is NORMAL. And NOTHING they say can be trusted. Think about it - do you know ANY children who are able to SPEAK and who have supposedly been residing with their FAMILY who cannot readily identify a "mommy" or "daddy"? Come on!

This situation will rewrite the book on such organizations and child custody issues. The wrappings have been ripped off and the festering underneath is no doubt going to CONTINUE to defy all known standards for a long time. I just PRAY that this will FINALLY get the PTB to shut down these folks for good! This is AMERICA and we can no longer ignore such abuses of CHILDREN because their parents are allowed hide ABUSE behind religion and doctrine. I don't CARE what adults do, believe, worship or how many people they marry or if they live in a tent wearing sackcloth - if it's LEGAL, go for it! I DO CARE if they abuse their children and rape girls in the name of God! We cannot allow vulnerable, brainwashed, "trained" children to be returned to such a life and their participating parents...period.

My Opinion

[gitana1]

Leila: I think it is a good possibility that some, if not many of the kids will not want to return. The picture painted of this cult is of children who experience little affection and warmth from anyone, little attention from adults except to "discipline", virtually no free play, and tons of hard, hard work. I also want to talk about diet here. I have heard references in the media to the healthy, wholesome diet of these people. I even heard someone say "organic". But that is not some ex-members say. In Escape, for example, Carolyn Jessops describes a dismal diet in Merril Jesopp's home. I'm sure that's not true for all, but I have not heard of any natural or organic diet restrictions among this group. I heard they eat what is available.

[mollymalone]

There are huge orchards and fields that the women and children work in and part of their diet comes from those but their men do bring in goods from outside and they have their own store where they can shop for items.
I did read however from several women who'd left and they all say that if the husband decides he's having a restaurant meal out then the women and children do without or make do with little. The first wife and her children get new shoes, clothes etc and the other wives and children again make do because their money is being paid over to the husband.

Some of those children will be turning 18 either shortly or by the time their turn to go to court comes up and they'll at least have the opportunity to decide for themselves where/what they wish to do. The other children, I don't think many of them will be returning. (Those for whom abuse can be proven or those who are considered abandoned if the parents don't come forward or are considered unsuitable)

My question is, if a lawyer has a young client who wishes NOT to return, will they push for that child's wishes or will they be bamboozled by the so called parents? Some of them seem to have sided with the parents already after their one trip out to the ranch to see living conditions.

[DawnTCB]

I don't CARE what adults do, believe, worship or how many people they marry or if they live in a tent wearing sackcloth - if it's LEGAL, go for it! I DO CARE if they abuse their children and rape girls in the name of God! We cannot allow vulnerable, brainwashed, "trained" children to be returned to such a life and their participating parents...period.


I agree with everything you say, and I have one additional point... It is not ok with me if these women (over 18) are defining themselves as "spiritually married" in their personal life but "unemployed single mothers" on their welfare forms. First of all, it seems fraudulent to me - are you married and cared for by your husband or are you not? Can you just change sides when it suits you? Secondly, while I am not a person who frets over where every one of my tax dollars goes to, I do not think it is appropriate for anyone's tax dollars to subsidize a religious community. They can send my tax dollars to help schools, roads, people struck by disaster, but if I want to contribute to a religious group I need to make that decision on my own.

[Leila]

The judge's order was for 175 adults to be DNA tested. All others, outside the order, were asked to voluntarily give DNA in an effort to sort out the identities.

With less than two dozen adults showing up for the DNA tests, I don't think the state can possibly more forward with positive identifications of the children. So this will impede the hearings going forth.

I agree with Flower Child and others that those men who fathered children with underage girls have removed themselves from the ranch and are in hiding. Cowards!

[Mygirlsadie]

I wonder why they are in hiding if they ''thought'' what they were doing was right? They had no idea it was illegal my BIG BUTT!!




The judge's order was for 175 adults to be DNA tested. All others, outside the order, were asked to voluntarily give DNA in an effort to sort out the identities.

With less than two dozen adults showing up for the DNA tests, I don't think the state can possibly more forward with positive identifications of the children. So this will impede the hearings going forth.

I agree with Flower Child and others that those men who fathered children with underage girls have removed themselves from the ranch and are in hiding. Cowards!

[southcitymom]

.....My question is, if a lawyer has a young client who wishes NOT to return, will they push for that child's wishes or will they be bamboozled by the so called parents? Some of them seem to have sided with the parents already after their one trip out to the ranch to see living conditions.

If the parent has not been deemed unfit, the child will go where the parents go - that is the law and it is a good one. The government does not get to decide what is best for the child - the parent does.

[Mygirlsadie]

Eww he looks deformed or like there might be a little something wrong with him? (besides the obvious lol) Then again all the women I been seeing on TV look sick too. They look terrible. I think they need vitamins or something? Maybe it's the in-breeding.




In most of the pics I've seen of Jeffs he's got a semi-smirk on his face but this is the first time I'd run across one where he's smiling. Since he's dealing with apostates his smile looks like it's one of those cheesy fake ones. IMO
http://i.abcnews.com/TheLaw/story?id=3656629&page=1

[Leila]

Reposting

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...273157,00.html (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273157,00.html)

Reid asks AG to review federal efforts regarding polygamous communities

I wanted to comment on this last night before the new thread was started.........

WASHINGTON — Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has asked U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey to review the federal efforts to stop child abuse or other criminal activity in polygamous communities.

Reid said the raid earlier this month at the Fundamentalist LDS Church ranch in Eldorado, Texas, "illustrates the depth of the problem and the pressing need for federal leadership to combat this problem."


I hope the attorney general takes this request seriously. A federal task-force into child abuse and criminal activities of the various FLDS communities operating in a number of states could go a long way to reduce the problem.


I don't think it will end polygamy, but it will go a long way to stopping abuses. I don't think the FLDS can stand up to federal scrutiny, and certainly couldn't continue to function as they have with an oversight committee.

[Floh]

yyyyy

Comprehensive and full answer to my question. thank you so much.

no it cannot be allowed for these children to enter such a hopeless existence ever again. and to the point: time to rescue the others elsewhere, i say. :furious: :furious: :furious:

[Shamrock]

Eww he looks deformed or like there might be a little something wrong with him? (besides the obvious lol) Then again all the women I been seeing on TV look sick too. They look terrible. I think they need vitamins or something? Maybe it's the in-breeding.

HAHAHAHAA!!!! Sorry, you may not have meant that to be funny, but I had to laugh.

Jeffs seems to be such a cocky b@stard, I can't stand him. And the fact that he still seems to be in charge, while in prison, makes my blood boil.

[FlowerChild]

If the parent has not been deemed unfit, the child will go where the parents go - that is the law and it is a good one. The government does not get to decide what is best for the child - the parent does.
Actually, depending on the age of the child and the information obtained in discovery the lawyer for the CHILD (not the parents) can ASK for the child to remain in foster care for the best interest of the child. It doesn't mean that the JUDGE will agree, but the child's lawyer can take the request/preference of the child under consideration when going to court. The lawyer is SUPPOSED to be the CHILD's LAWYER, not the parent's (they have their OWN lawyer).

And if the child would be returned to an ENVIRONMENT where previous abuse has been proven OR the child would/could be endangered by the collective and cooperative "group" also living in the same place OR could be exposed to persons who are known abusers ANYWHERE within the organization at ANY TIME - the courts may NOT allow the parents to just take the child anywhere or live in a communal situation with other (known or unknown) members of such an organization. This will probably end up being defined as kids being placed at RISK of condoned and approved ABUSE by a GROUP of people who cannot be controlled by the parents. The KIDS are NOT BEING PROTECTED - by ORDER of the organization. It isn't a situation where you have ONE ABUSER or offender - but a collective and organized GROUP of offenders who either participate in abuse or cannot or refuse to protect their children from the abusers.

Think of it like returning a school of children to an island where there are ONLY 100 adults who have been involved or have participated (or facilitated) previous abuse, rape and torture/mistreatment of children in their care. Even if the group contains their parents and the parents are NOT proven to be abusers personally and certainly FREE to live there, they cannot be permitted to take their children with them if they chose to keep residing with and near OTHER abusers....because these parents APPROVE of such abuses and do NOT find the others in the organization objectionable OR abusive does NOT give them the right to expose their kids to such and environment. And we already know that evidently parents in this group are interchangeable - what's to keep the approved parents from leaving their children with someone else and going off to live elsewhere for a year or two? Without oversight the kids end up right back where they started - with the COURTS's approval this time.

We cannot apply any previous known logic or standards to THIS CASE. This is like trying to corral the wind - it isn't going to be easy, if even possible. This isn't domestic abuse or even one or two endangered children in a single family home with one abuser and an absent/unsuitable mother. This is literally over 425 kids of all ages possible abused by a COLLECTIVE of ADULTS including the cooperation of their parental figures and encouraged by the LEADERSHIP of the group. These families live under the constant OVERSIGHT of Men who ENFORCE ABUSE at every level - of women and of children. The women have NO CONTROL, no education, no income and no escape. The can't just drive away and remove themselves or their children from the abuse because they are monitored 24/7/365 - and housed in a remote place where privacy, phone calls and all communication is controlled by OTHERS. We already know that even the vehicles the women are allowed access to are kept with very little fuel - so as to "prevent" escape from the compound.

Oh yeah, I think we should just give all those "innocent" parents "free will" to take those kiddies wherever they want. Sorry - in THIS CASE NO!

I am all for PARENT'S RIGHTS and their rights to educate and parent their children in their faith or belief system - so LONG AS THE CHILDREN ARE NOT ABUSED or passed around like party hats. Systematic ABUSE and an environment of ABUSE by OTHERS (not the parents) is NOT NEGOTIABLE for ANY CHILD! Regardless of what the parents believe.

My Opinion

[Medusa]

Eww he looks deformed or like there might be a little something wrong with him? (besides the obvious lol) Then again all the women I been seeing on TV look sick too. They look terrible. I think they need vitamins or something? Maybe it's the in-breeding.

They are crying out for exfoliation and moisturizer. Oh, and sunscreen!

[KR2tonenow]

Here's a link to an article on Warren Jeffs arrest:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038

Thanks for the article again.

This is the start of taking this sect down. Piece by piece. Starting with this #1 creep.:mad:

[Leila]

They are crying out for exfoliation and moisturizer. Oh, and sunscreen!

I checked out some close up pictures taken of the women who were interviewed, and while some appear to be quite young, in their 30's, a close up picture revealed a lot of lines. It must be the hours of working outside in the hot sun.

Now.......I'm older than the women pictured, but I don't have the lines they have and I live in a hot, dry climate.

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3152807


Now there may be very little room to doubt the phone call which prompted the FLDS raid in Texas was a hoax. An affidavit was unsealed in Colorado Springs showing several calls were made from cell phones belonging to Rozita Swinton. The document reveals that a Texas shelter received 16 calls in a week from a woman claiming to be "Sarah Barlow." Swinton has been named a "person of interest" in the Texas investigation. (more at link)

[SuziQ]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3155034

(snips)

Years after a polygamous sect founder banned books from the outside world, Colorado City is well on its way to having a library of its own. Stefanie Colgrove first dreamed up the idea only a few months ago, but the books have been pouring in with the support. "There's a lot of students here, high school students, who have been very excited because they have to go to St. George or Hurricane to do any kind of research," she explained, and that's an hour's drive.

The challenge now is to raise about $5,000 to bring the building up to city code. "We have a building, we just have to have it up to code, city code, we have to bring the plumbing and the electrical up to code," Colgrove said.
***

If you would like to help in the establishment of this new library, books and other help could be sent to:
Stefanie Colgrove
P.O. Box 1935
Hildale, Utah 84784 or in care of Charlotte at the Colorado City Post Office, Colorado City, AZ 86021.

[southcitymom]

Actually, depending on the age of the child and the information obtained in discovery the lawyer for the CHILD (not the parents) can ASK for the child to remain in foster care for the best interest of the child. It doesn't mean that the JUDGE will agree, but the child's lawyer can take the request/preference of the child under consideration when going to court. The lawyer is SUPPOSED to be the CHILD's LAWYER, not the parent's (they have their OWN lawyer). .....

Yes, I understand that the Courts in this case will probably appoint a guardian ad litem for each child. In most states, the Court will also take a child's desires into account when the child is in the 12-14 range. In terms of considering viewpoints, most Courts historically look first to the guardian ad litem, second to the parent and finally to the child.

I do agree that this case will certainly bring about some new legal precedents in the areas of parents rights, children rights and the right to practice a faith of one's choosing (not to mention the rights of government to storm into a community on the word of a fraud).

I would think the younger children will probably just want to be with their parents, wherever they are. The older children will probably have strong personal opinions one way or another. I am curious to see how the women will respond. Some will like what they see out here, but others will want to go back.

It is going to take a long time to sort out - imo, by the time many of these issues are settled, some of the children will be grown. The family structure of the FLDS is so different than the norm - that piece alone will take forever to resolve.

I am sure that no one involved wishes to send the children back into an abusive environment, but I will be very surprised if this group does not re-congregate in some form of fashion. And - I suspect that if they cannot congregate with their own children among them, they will just have more.

[SuziQ]

Shurtleff: FLDS Church members wanted him dead

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3154614

[golfmom]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5728316.html

25 mothers taken from FLDS ranch now believed to be minors

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Twenty-five mothers staying at a shelter for children taken from a polygamists' compound are now believed to be minors.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says the girls initially claimed to be adults but are now believed to be under 18. The girls are in state custody.

[FlowerChild]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5728316.html

25 mothers taken from FLDS ranch now believed to be minors

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Twenty-five mothers staying at a shelter for children taken from a polygamists' compound are now believed to be minors.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says the girls initially claimed to be adults but are now believed to be under 18. The girls are in state custody.

You see, NOTHING these people say is the TRUTH! The parents lie, the teenagers lie, the children lie. So now we have close to 40 or 50 GIRLS under 18 with CHILDREN conceived at ages 14 -17 by men they are NOT LEGALLY MARRIED TO at this ONE RANCH!

We can at least HOPE that the babies with these CHILDREN belong to the underage mother they are with??? Only DNA will tell for sure I guess...... And this naturally bring up the question of whether these underage girls have OTHER, OLDER children at large in the groups of children now removed to foster care? Having one infant with them is no guarantee that it is the 1st or only child. They may very well have MULTIPLE children by age 17 IN THIS GROUP.

This just gets sicker and sicker - and it has been permitted to go on for YEARS right under OUR NOSES. I am disgusted that this has been allowed to get this bad because the AUTHORITIES and LE were afraid of this group of fanatics! And it isn't like women who escaped haven't been speaking out and CRYING for help and support for a LONG TIME. WE KNEW and we just CHOSE to look away because it wasn't pretty and was going to be messy and hard and ugly and we didn't want to appear to be persecuting someone (or a group) because of their faith. THIS ISN'T FAITH, this is PERVERSION OF JUSTICE - not to mention suborning ABUSE because it's wrapped in a pretty religious package for public consumption..

TAKE THEM DOWN - ALL OF THEM, WHEREVER THEY ARE - and save those innocent, unprotected abused children from having to live one more day in such an environment, Wonder how many MORE pregnant or current mothers under age 18 are out there somewhere within this group?? 100, 200? Even one more is TOO MANY!

Excuse me while I :furious: and then :sick:

My Opinion

[SewingDeb]

One of the articles said 50 adults had shown up by Tuesday afternoon and there is no time limit for giving the DNA samples. Hopefully more have done so by now.

[SewingDeb]

Flower Child, where are you getting 40 or 50 from? The article says 25 and that's bad enough. Just wondering if I missed something.

[FlowerChild]

One of the articles said 50 adults had shown up by Tuesday afternoon and there is no time limit for giving the DNA samples. Hopefully more have done so by now.

Well it's probably taking a while to gather up and transport all the actual BIO parents to Eldorado from elsewhere. I mean they did take all their records and information so I betcha they are scrambling to remember who's kids are there - and figure out if they are from Husband A or B etc if the women have been "re-assigned" to new husbands along the way. And betcha SOME of the fathers and mothers aren't even IN the FLDS Church any more.

I LOVE DNA - i REALLY DO. For ONCE the truth will be undeniable! For ONCE these people will have to FACE the FACTS in a court of law where "being sweet" means NOTHING. They cannot wiggle out of THIS ONE - the DNA won't lie for them.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better! It's like the ugliness is endless and we are now peering into a bottomless pit of it.

My Opinion

[FlowerChild]

Flower Child, where are you getting 40 or 50 from? The article says 25 and that's bad enough. Just wondering if I missed something.
If I understand correctly....
They already HAD (I believe) 18 in custody - add this to the new 25 that they have newly determined are ALSO under 18. 18 and 25 and thats 43 underage MOTHERS - either pregnant or with child in arms from the YFZ Ranch ALONE!.

[golfmom]

I'm afraid you did FC, the number of children has now jumped up to 462, because some of the girls were counted as women, which increases the number of minors with children and/or pregnant.

http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stories/042408kvuepolygamyupdate-cb.977d30d5.html
SAN ANGELO -- The number of children in Texas custody after being taken from a polygamist retreat now stands at 462 because officials believe another 25 mothers from the compound are under 18.

[golfmom]

http://www.abc15.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=f7d5d96d-1bcc-40ca-81d9-66e7421339eb

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says the girls initially claimed to be adults but are now in state custody. Earlier they had been staying voluntarily with their children at a shelter at the San Angelo Coliseum.

[southcitymom]

You see, NOTHING these people say is the TRUTH! The parents lie, the teenagers lie, the children lie. So now we have close to 40 or 50 GIRLS under 18 with CHILDREN conceived at ages 14 -17 by men they are NOT LEGALLY MARRIED TO at this ONE RANCH!...

I think they lie for many reasons. They feel attacked and persecuted. They do not know what is going on and what is going to happen to them and their children. The life they have known and made for years (and no matter how criminal we might consider that life, it is still a comfort and security to them) has ben ripped apart. They do not know if telling the turth will help them or hurt them. And on and on.

I can understand their terror and confusion. I can understand the lies. They do not trust the people who have taken them. Distrust does not engender open honest communication.

In the distant future the lives of these children and women may be better because of this dismantling of their way of life, but right now they can't see that and I wouldn't really expect them to.

[Linda7NJ]

PLEASE! I need a link to the video tour of a house that the FLDS woman gave reporters.

[golfmom]

PLEASE! I need a link to the video tour of a house that the FLDS woman gave reporters.

Is this the one: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/04/16/lkl.flds.polygamy.cnn?iref=videosearch

[FlowerChild]

I think they lie for many reasons. They feel attacked and persecuted. They do not know what is going on and what is going to happen to them and their children. The life they have known and made for years (and no matter how criminal we might consider that life, it is still a comfort and security to them) has ben ripped apart. They do not know if telling the turth will help them or hurt them. And on and on.

I can understand their terror and confusion. I can understand the lies. They do not trust the people who have taken them. Distrust does not engender open honest communication.

In the distant future the lives of these children and women may be better because of this dismantling of their way of life, but right now they can't see that and I wouldn't really expect them to.

If someone from CPS came to your home and investigated you - and TOOK your children, would you do everything to get them back...or lie? Would you encourage your children to lie? Would you get legal help and then TELL THE TRUTH? Get DNA testing ASAP if necessary? Would your children be able to identify you as their MOTHER? Would you give your correct information to the the authorities...or lie about your name, age, birthdate and if the children in your arms were yours or not?

I am sorry - the men in this Church use computers, have web sites and even many of the women had cell phones and were in constant touch with the men while in custody with the children. The men are out working in the "world" every day. I do NOT buy that these people are all so ignorant as to not UNDERSTAND the concept of TRUTH and giving basic factual information to authorities. And it's funny how they are all suddenly so frightened but have no problem going on TV to tell their side of the story when it appears that course of action HELPS THEM. And they have LAWYERS - it's not like they do not have PAID legal representation to ADVISE THEM out of their fright and help them navigate the courts. This church is worth an estimated 50 MILLION $$$ which they earn by working out HERE with us infidels - but they have no concept of laws, rules, codes and business practices???

GMAB - the whole helpless, paralyzed, frightened, don't understand spiel they have worked so hard (in the infidel based MEDIA they scorn) to sell to us is wearing very very thin. I think they understand TOTALLY what is going on and I think they certainly understand truth from lies. Lies are PUNISHED severely in their world (lies are definintely NOT "being sweet") - therefore I must assume they can grasp the concept that lies also are bad in THIS very important circumstance. And the MEN are still running everything and I KNOW they are NOT all dumb, frightened or ignorant of the real world and basic law. .. they take PayPal!

It's been DAYS - WEEKS and they have had lawyers since day TWO. Somewhere in that time I would ASSUME that their lawyers have patiently explained the concept of truth and facts and what can and did happen - and WHY. We do not accept IGNORANCE as a defense in OTHER crimes and abuse cases - why should we allow it to even be brought up in this one. These are ADULTS and not mentally deficient in any way - maybe many of the women are not highly sophisticated or educated but they are capable of understanding. There is a huge difference between frightened and willfully evasive - and between recalcitrance and shyness - and outright deception and FRAUD. Funny how these poor ladies can negotiate the rather complicated process of getting AID from the state and Govt for their children and themselves but then turn around and go mute when asked by CPS and the courts to prove which children are theirs and their ages when their legal custody of those same children is questioned.

Scared my right butt cheek - they are one step above con artists and definitely very well acquainted with defrauding the Govt they are suddenly so fearful of and do not "understand" when it benefits THEM.

My Opinion

[Linda7NJ]

Is this the one: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/04/16/lkl.flds.polygamy.cnn?iref=videosearch


Yes, that's part of it. Thank you! Any idea where I can view the whole thing?

[golfmom]

Yes, that's part of it. Thank you! Any idea where I can view the whole thing?

Gotta get back to Ugly Betty, but here's some youtube videos recently added.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=flds%20eldorado&uploaded=w

[southcitymom]

If someone from CPS came to your home and investigated you - and TOOK your children, would you do everything to get them back...or lie? Would you encourage your children to lie? Would you get legal help and then TELL THE TRUTH? Get DNA testing ASAP if necessary? Would your children be able to identify you as their MOTHER? Would you give your correct information to the the authorities...or lie about your name, age, birthdate and if the children in your arms were yours or not? ......

It's just not a comparable analogy for me. If CPS came to my house and took my children, they would be dealing with someone who lives fairly fully (moreso than these women and children) in the modern world and they would be dealing with a simple family structure - one husband, one wife, 2 kids. This is not the case for the FLDS.

Additionally, if my family were stormed on and accosted in the manner these folks were, I'd be out of my friggin' mind and I can't really tell you how I would respond. I don't know if it would be rational - it may well be criminal - it's hard for me to even envision. I can tell you that if I ever got wind that CPS was heading to my home to take my children, I'd be out of this country with them so fast your head would spin. But that's neither here nor there.

We can think they're crazy as loons and criminal for living the way they were living. We can want to protect the children and get them out of an abusive environment. But, even with those things in mind, it should not be hard to grasp the fact that - whether we like them or not - these woman and children are scared and they don't really know what to do and they don't trust the people who are trying to "help" them.

And you know what? - I'll bet if any of us found ourselves in their situation, we would feel the same way.

I think it benefits us to keep this in mind as this story unfolds.

[barb0301]

(bolding is mine)

Yes, I understand that the Courts in this case will probably appoint a guardian ad litem for each child. In most states, the Court will also take a child's desires into account when the child is in the 12-14 range. In terms of considering viewpoints, most Courts historically look first to the guardian ad litem, second to the parent and finally to the child..

Just a bit of clarification, ad litems have already been appointed to every child that was under the guardianship of the state of TX last week. The ones discovered today will be appointed ad litems within a few days. Attorneys from all across the state of TX have stepped up to the plate and are doing this on a pro bono basis.

As far as considering viewpoints, here in TX, the courts will historically look to the guardian ad litem, and then equally to the parent and CPS. A child has a legal right to speak at age 12 in TX, and can be heard at a younger age if deemed in the best interest of the child. Their preferences are certainly entered into the equation, based on the evidence presented by all other parties and witnesses (medical, psychological, etc).

[southcitymom]

(bolding is mine)



Just a bit of clarification, ad litems have already been appointed to every child that was under the guardianship of the state of TX last week. The ones discovered today will be appointed ad litems within a few days. Attorneys from all across the state of TX have stepped up to the plate and are doing this on a pro bono basis.

As far as considering viewpoints, here in TX, the courts will historically look to the guardian ad litem, and then equally to the parent and CPS. A child has a legal right to speak at age 12 in TX, and can be heard at a younger age if deemed in the best interest of the child. Their preferences are certainly entered into the equation, based on the evidence presented by all other parties and witnesses (medical, psychological, etc).

Thank you, barb. That's great to know about the guardians already being appointed and I appreciate the clarification about the TX courts. The little I know is from exposure here in GA.

[legallee]

It's just not a comparable analogy for me. If CPS came to my house and took my children, they would be dealing with someone who lives fairly fully (moreso than these women and children) in the modern world and they would be dealing with a simple family structure - one husband, one wife, 2 kids. This is not the case for the FLDS.

Additionally, if my family were stormed on and accosted in the manner these folks were, I'd be out of my friggin' mind and I can't really tell you how I would respond. I don't know if it would be rational - it may well be criminal - it's hard for me to even envision. I can tell you that if I ever got wind that CPS was heading to my home to take my children, I'd be out of this country with them so fast your head would spin. But that's neither here nor there.

We can think they're crazy as loons and criminal for living the way they were living. We can want to protect the children and get them out of an abusive environment. But, even with those things in mind, it should not be hard to grasp the fact that - whether we like them or not - these woman and children are scared and they don't really know what to do and they don't trust the people who are trying to "help" them.

And you know what? - I'll bet if any of us found ourselves in their situation, we would feel the same way.

I think it benefits us to keep this in mind as this story unfolds.

I agree with everything you've said. :clap:

[southcitymom]

I agree with everything you've said. :clap:

Thanks, legallee!

[Leila]

Yes, I understand that the Courts in this case will probably appoint a guardian ad litem for each child. In most states, the Court will also take a child's desires into account when the child is in the 12-14 range. In terms of considering viewpoints, most Courts historically look first to the guardian ad litem, second to the parent and finally to the child.

I do agree that this case will certainly bring about some new legal precedents in the areas of parents rights, children rights and the right to practice a faith of one's choosing (not to mention the rights of government to storm into a community on the word of a fraud).

I would think the younger children will probably just want to be with their parents, wherever they are. The older children will probably have strong personal opinions one way or another. I am curious to see how the women will respond. Some will like what they see out here, but others will want to go back.

It is going to take a long time to sort out - imo, by the time many of these issues are settled, some of the children will be grown. The family structure of the FLDS is so different than the norm - that piece alone will take forever to resolve.

I am sure that no one involved wishes to send the children back into an abusive environment, but I will be very surprised if this group does not re-congregate in some form of fashion. And - I suspect that if they cannot congregate with their own children among them, they will just have more.

A friend is a CPS worker and they have a standard procedure. Let's say a young child is taken away from it's parents because of neglect, and both parents are alcoholics. CPS will place the child in a temporary foster home, while they investigate and make recommendation to the court. The parents are court ordered to attend an alcohol rehab and to take parenting classes. The parents will start out with monitored visitation with their child. As the parents make progress in their alcohol recovery and parenting classes, they will move to unsupervised visitation, and then to weekend visitation before regaining custody. During this time, CPS is in contact with the rehab program to monitor the parent's progress, and will also keep in contact with the parenting program instructors to make sure the parents are attending.

The FLDS mothers have already demonstrated that they're not trustworthy. They've been evasive in answering simple questions, and have instructed their children to not answer questions as well. In a similar situation as I outlined above, I can't see the FLDS being cooperative. I feel that the minute they had the opportunity, they'd take the children a leave for parts unknown.

[Pepper]

Interesting Leila. I wonder how the CPS views the plural "marriage" situation as it replates to child welfare. Let's say there are 5 children from one mother and that mother is wife #6 and there are 35 other children in the household. The CPS worker investigates and determines that there is no physical or sexual abuse in the household with any of the minor children, BUT wife #6 will not leave her husband and wives 1-5 + 35 other children. Does the CPS worker allow the children and mother to reunite with the rest of the household, OR does CPS view the act of polygamy a crime and an endangerment to the children?

[tnajk]

Check out this link. Hopefully no one has posted it and I'm not just repeating. It's a strange remix of the polygamist women talking to the media. Very catchy and funny but with some inexplicable president Bush references. Anyhow, I thought it was hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tICf7MaXyKs


OMG That was hilarious. I hadn't seen that particular interview. Does anyone have the link to an unmixed version? I find it peculiar that the woman are suddenly SOOO animated. I mean,the smiles and voices and facial expressions are all so over the top!! lol It's obvious they were "told" to stop being so robotic like. Anyone else get that impression??

[Leila]

Interesting Leila. I wonder how the CPS views the plural "marriage" situation as it replates to child welfare. Let's say there are 5 children from one mother and that mother is wife #6 and there are 35 other children in the household. The CPS worker investigates and determines that there is no physical or sexual abuse in the household with any of the minor children, BUT wife #6 will not leave her husband and wives 1-5 + 35 other children. Does the CPS worker allow the children and mother to reunite with the rest of the household, OR does CPS view the act of polygamy a crime and an endangerment to the children?

That's a very interesting question! And one I'd like to pose to my CPS worker friend the next time I see her. I have the feeling though, that the situation in Texas is a unique situation. I'd venture to guess that most CPS workers don't run into a plural marriage situation in their entire career. I doubt they'd run into a plural marriage situation here in southern California.

I think CPS in Utah and Arizona must be involved in cases of minors leaving the FLDS in those areas. At the child brides website that has stories of those who escaped polygamy, it stated that two 16 year old girls who left the Colorado City, made their way to Phoenix. It was stated that a case worker placed them both together in a foster home. So, that had to have involved CPS.

[Leila]

Judge Denies Warren Jeff's Motion for a New Trial.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273465,00.html

The last line in the article states..................

Jeffs is also the father of an unknown number of children now in state custody in Texas.

[LionRun]

A friend is a CPS worker and they have a standard procedure. Let's say a young child is taken away from it's parents because of neglect, and both parents are alcoholics. CPS will place the child in a temporary foster home, while they investigate and make recommendation to the court. The parents are court ordered to attend an alcohol rehab and to take parenting classes. The parents will start out with monitored visitation with their child. As the parents make progress in their alcohol recovery and parenting classes, they will move to unsupervised visitation, and then to weekend visitation before regaining custody. During this time, CPS is in contact with the rehab program to monitor the parent's progress, and will also keep in contact with the parenting program instructors to make sure the parents are attending.

The FLDS mothers have already demonstrated that they're not trustworthy. They've been evasive in answering simple questions, and have instructed their children to not answer questions as well. In a similar situation as I outlined above, I can't see the FLDS being cooperative. I feel that the minute they had the opportunity, they'd take the children a leave for parts unknown.

Great post, Leila!

Lion

[gitana1]

tjnak: The original unmixed interview was from ABC I think. But I can't find it anywhere now. I saw it live. The redheaded girl was on a few interviews but I think her "preisthood heads" got wind of the fact that most people in the real world were very unnerved by the fact that she kept smiling and smiling at a time when she was supposed to be upset because "the children" had been taken away. So, she stopped appearing on interviews and I haven't seen her since. The unibrow lady seemed to have taken her place with the fake tears the cult seemed to think might appear more appropriate. Very strange.

[SuziQ]

I had seen the trailer for Banking on Heaven before but didn't find it again until tonight. Others may have posted it. Anyways, one woman talks about drowning deformed babies as acceptable behavior. Below is the link if you haven't seen if before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc

[mysteriew]

I had seen the trailer for Banking on Heaven before but didn't find it again until tonight. Others may have posted it. Anyways, one woman talks about drowning deformed babies as acceptable behavior. Below is the link if you haven't seen if before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc

So that may answer the question as to why with this much inbreeding we haven't seen a lot of disabled children.

[LillyRush]

I had seen the trailer for Banking on Heaven before but didn't find it again until tonight. Others may have posted it. Anyways, one woman talks about drowning deformed babies as acceptable behavior. Below is the link if you haven't seen if before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc

:mad: As if they didn't seem twisted enough already. Uh, that makes me despise the flds group even more. Good video, Suzi, thanks for posting it.

[SuziQ]

Here is the link to order the cd Banking on Heaven:

http://bankingonheaven.com/shopping.html

[SuziQ]

So that may answer the question as to why with this much inbreeding we haven't seen a lot of disabled children.

That may be the sad sick truth right there.

I need to try to find Flora Jessops interview where she talks about domestic violence in the FLDS. IIRC it comes from not so much the husband but the sister wives due to jealousy in a polygamist relationship. I'll try to find the interview. If anyone has the link please post it. TIA.

[SuziQ]

:mad: As if they didn't seem twisted enough already. Uh, that makes me despise the flds group even more. Good video, Suzi, thanks for posting it.

There are just not enough numbers out there to count the ways this is all wrong.

[mysteriew]

It's just not a comparable analogy for me. If CPS came to my house and took my children, they would be dealing with someone who lives fairly fully (moreso than these women and children) in the modern world and they would be dealing with a simple family structure - one husband, one wife, 2 kids. This is not the case for the FLDS.

Additionally, if my family were stormed on and accosted in the manner these folks were, I'd be out of my friggin' mind and I can't really tell you how I would respond. I don't know if it would be rational - it may well be criminal - it's hard for me to even envision. I can tell you that if I ever got wind that CPS was heading to my home to take my children, I'd be out of this country with them so fast your head would spin. But that's neither here nor there.

We can think they're crazy as loons and criminal for living the way they were living. We can want to protect the children and get them out of an abusive environment. But, even with those things in mind, it should not be hard to grasp the fact that - whether we like them or not - these woman and children are scared and they don't really know what to do and they don't trust the people who are trying to "help" them.

And you know what? - I'll bet if any of us found ourselves in their situation, we would feel the same way.

I think it benefits us to keep this in mind as this story unfolds.

It is my understanding that when trying to sort out the mothers/children they might approach a person thought to be a mother of a child. She might tell them her name was Sarah and her child was Jacob. The next time they went back to talk to the same person, she might say her name was Becky and her child's name was Matthew (I made these names up for clarity). One time she might say it was her child, the next time she might say it was someone else's child. To me, that shows a dispute over maternity. In order to prove it is her child, she is going to have to give DNA. Because according to her words, the child could be Sarah's or Becky's or someone else's. Since CPS doesn't know who the mother is, they will have to prove maternity before they know who to give the child back to. Otherwise, they could be returning the wrong child to the wrong mother.

Of the 25 new ones believed to be minors. I wonder if anyone has considered the number who returned to the compound. I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that some of those might be minors also but might have just appeared older?

[SuziQ]

Watch this interview of Carolyn Jessop describing her escape from the FLDS. All these years later, the anxiety in reliving that night is severe. You can see it in her face and hear it in her voice. Notice her breathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJAvqc5u9KM

[mysteriew]

Judge Denies Warren Jeff's Motion for a New Trial.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273465,00.html

The last line in the article states..................

Jeffs is also the father of an unknown number of children now in state custody in Texas.

I wonder if these are bio children or "reassigned" children? I had a reason for asking how many bio children Jeffs has. Earlier there was a link that indicated that Jeffs as a young man had a history of assaulting young boys. A history that has been alleged to have continued.

We all know that once a pedo assaults, they will often keep assaulting. Jeffs started at a young age- I think it shows a preference on his part for young males. I am wondering if in taking his father's wives he wasn't setting up a 'beard' for himself. Like perhaps he needed to show that he had normal wives, but didn't necessarily have relations with them much. Who is more likely to protect him and keep the secret than his father's wives? His father's wives would also be more likely to keep any new "reassigned" wives and children in control and quiet. And God help the new "reassigned" male children!

[SuziQ]

This isn't the interview of Flora that I'm looking for. But she does talk some about the DV between the wives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI6AWDs6UF0

[Mygirlsadie]

Suzi I read that yesterday and it even had me breathing hard and about to have an anxiety attack myself.. I wonder how she knew to get out? I wonder what made her realize this life was wrong and there was a different life/world out there...how did she know?




Watch this interview of Carolyn Jessop describing her escape from the FLDS. All these years later, the anxiety in reliving that night is severe. You can see it in her face and hear it in her voice. Notice her breathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJAvqc5u9KM

[SuziQ]

Laurie Allen is the filmaker of Banking on Heaven. Her bio is below:

http://bankingonheaven.com/bios.html

Laurie Allen
Laurie Allen was born into the infamous and violent LeBaron polygamous sect. Her uncle Ervil LeBaron killed 28 people, and became known as the Mormon Manson. Her cousin Jacqueline Tarsa LeBaron is on the FBI's Most Wanted list. When she was eight, a polygamist kidnapped Laurie from Chihuahua, got in some trouble with the law, and eventually fled to Central America, keeping her as his interpreter. Laurie fought off the religious indoctrination, escaped at age sixteen, and found passage back to the United States. Fluent in Spanish and dedicated to freedom and human rights, she earned a college degree and went on to film school. BANKING ON HEAVEN exposes a cult similar to the one that nearly absorbed her when she was very young and vulnerable.
Now Laurie Allen is a filmmaker with a vision and a goal. Her background makes her the one filmmaker who could produce BANKING ON HEAVEN, a documentary about the abuse and corruption inherent in America’s polygamous sects.

[Fairy1]

It's just not a comparable analogy for me. If CPS came to my house and took my children, they would be dealing with someone who lives fairly fully (moreso than these women and children) in the modern world and they would be dealing with a simple family structure - one husband, one wife, 2 kids. This is not the case for the FLDS.

Additionally, if my family were stormed on and accosted in the manner these folks were, I'd be out of my friggin' mind and I can't really tell you how I would respond. I don't know if it would be rational - it may well be criminal - it's hard for me to even envision. I can tell you that if I ever got wind that CPS was heading to my home to take my children, I'd be out of this country with them so fast your head would spin. But that's neither here nor there.

We can think they're crazy as loons and criminal for living the way they were living. We can want to protect the children and get them out of an abusive environment. But, even with those things in mind, it should not be hard to grasp the fact that - whether we like them or not - these woman and children are scared and they don't really know what to do and they don't trust the people who are trying to "help" them.

And you know what? - I'll bet if any of us found ourselves in their situation, we would feel the same way.

I think it benefits us to keep this in mind as this story unfolds.

Southcitymom - I don't know exactly why you are defending these people, but your sympathy is tragically misplaced. It is true that - for the most part - the women and children do not know the magnitude to which they are pawns in a demented game. But trust me, the men know exactly what they are doing and their victims deserve protection and CHOICES. This truly is not about religion, but about sex, control and money. Religious freedom is not a factor here.

[SuziQ]

Suzi I read that yesterday and it even had me breathing hard and about to have an anxiety attack myself.. I wonder how she knew to get out? I wonder what made her realize this life was wrong and there was a different life/world out there...how did she know?

That's the same reaction I had to watching that vid. I'm thinking she realized how dangerous things were. As in deadly dangerous. Whatever it was, it had to be worth risking kidnapping and stealing a car.

BTW, the Tattered Cover Bookstore was one of my clients way back when I worked for a publisher. A really neat lady owns that store.

[mollymalone]

I think they lie for many reasons. They feel attacked and persecuted. They do not know what is going on and what is going to happen to them and their children. The life they have known and made for years (and no matter how criminal we might consider that life, it is still a comfort and security to them) has ben ripped apart. They do not know if telling the turth will help them or hurt them. And on and on.

I can understand their terror and confusion. I can understand the lies. They do not trust the people who have taken them. Distrust does not engender open honest communication.

In the distant future the lives of these children and women may be better because of this dismantling of their way of life, but right now they can't see that and I wouldn't really expect them to.All of this is likely true, but the fact remains that Warren Jeffs ordered his followers to LIE to outsiders, whether they be govt. or not. That was long before this incident happened. He's pitted them against each other, to spy and report bad deeds on each other. There's no telling how many lies were told against others just to gain points with him or the other men. Many lied when they filled out welfare applications as part of bleeding the beast. Lying has become part and parcel of their culture.

[Fairy1]

Laurie Allen is the filmaker of Banking on Heaven. Her bio is below:

http://bankingonheaven.com/bios.html

Laurie Allen
Laurie Allen was born into the infamous and violent LeBaron polygamous sect. Her uncle Ervil LeBaron killed 28 people, and became known as the Mormon Manson. Her cousin Jacqueline Tarsa LeBaron is on the FBI's Most Wanted list. When she was eight, a polygamist kidnapped Laurie from Chihuahua, got in some trouble with the law, and eventually fled to Central America, keeping her as his interpreter. Laurie fought off the religious indoctrination, escaped at age sixteen, and found passage back to the United States. Fluent in Spanish and dedicated to freedom and human rights, she earned a college degree and went on to film school. BANKING ON HEAVEN exposes a cult similar to the one that nearly absorbed her when she was very young and vulnerable.
Now Laurie Allen is a filmmaker with a vision and a goal. Her background makes her the one filmmaker who could produce BANKING ON HEAVEN, a documentary about the abuse and corruption inherent in America’s polygamous sects.

Thank you SuziQ - and Laurie -- YOU GO GIRL!!! Ervil was not smart enough to keep his perceived power under control - he killed his own daughter!!! But Warren Jeffs is and he is dangerous because of that. The US sects recognize him as their "prophet" and it will be difficult - maybe impossible - to counter that perception with sect members above the age of...say 13.

[Truly]

It's just not a comparable analogy for me. If CPS came to my house and took my children, they would be dealing with someone who lives fairly fully (moreso than these women and children) in the modern world and they would be dealing with a simple family structure - one husband, one wife, 2 kids. This is not the case for the FLDS.

Additionally, if my family were stormed on and accosted in the manner these folks were, I'd be out of my friggin' mind and I can't really tell you how I would respond. I don't know if it would be rational - it may well be criminal - it's hard for me to even envision. I can tell you that if I ever got wind that CPS was heading to my home to take my children, I'd be out of this country with them so fast your head would spin. But that's neither here nor there.

We can think they're crazy as loons and criminal for living the way they were living. We can want to protect the children and get them out of an abusive environment. But, even with those things in mind, it should not be hard to grasp the fact that - whether we like them or not - these woman and children are scared and they don't really know what to do and they don't trust the people who are trying to "help" them.

And you know what? - I'll bet if any of us found ourselves in their situation, we would feel the same way.




Look, everybody knows that children who have been imprisoned in a cult that forces them to have sex with old men are going to be scared. The cult leaders are the ones responsible for terrorizing them, not the people who have stepped in to help them.

Are you asking us to have sympathy for these con-men child molesters because they are afraid of facing prison terms? Are you asking us to equate the fear of the perps with the fears of their victims?

Because I could give a flying flip about how the perps feel. They have imprisoned and sexually assaulted hundreds of children. They need to face the music.

[mollymalone]

I wonder if these are bio children or "reassigned" children? I had a reason for asking how many bio children Jeffs has. Earlier there was a link that indicated that Jeffs as a young man had a history of assaulting young boys. A history that has been alleged to have continued.

We all know that once a pedo assaults, they will often keep assaulting. Jeffs started at a young age- I think it shows a preference on his part for young males. I am wondering if in taking his father's wives he wasn't setting up a 'beard' for himself. Like perhaps he needed to show that he had normal wives, but didn't necessarily have relations with them much. Who is more likely to protect him and keep the secret than his father's wives? His father's wives would also be more likely to keep any new "reassigned" wives and children in control and quiet. And God help the new "reassigned" male children!Hm, well, he did take on 20 "younger" wives, although I've not seen any report on how old those wives were and he has fathered children unless that's all a smokescreen too and many of those children were reassigned babies. Edited to add: I do believe he's continued to assault young males though. I don't think he's changed his behaviour.

[Fairy1]

Children are remarkably resilient. In this particular case, it seems many of these children do not actually know who their real parents are. That makes me believe that no real bonding between mothers and children has ever occurred. The children can and will assimilate.

[cheko1]

From all appearances, Warren Jeffs is to some extent a faker. While in the FLDS community he acts the role of pious prophet, but outside the community, he shucks the trappings of that pious life and lives like anyone else - driving a red car, and having all the luxuries of modern living. If other reports are accurate - that he was wearing burmuda shorts - then one would have to assume he wasn't wearing the long holy underwear of the sect.

He's one of them that says:
Don't do as I do / Do as I say!!!!!!

The Cadillac Escalade is quite the Luxury vehicle!
He is a hypoctie!!!! Makes me sick.....

[mollymalone]

There's a lot of those women who could be charged for child abandonment (for sons they put out on the street) and for not protecting their child from sexual or other abuse. Those who were raised and kept isolated I can see where they might not feel able to do anything, especially with the threat of physical violence or death hanging over their heads. But hell, even those isolated like Carolyn, or Flora, or the others we've read about KNEW instinctively that abuse wasn't right and knew they had to leave to protect their children. So I find it hard to find sympathy for many of those who are spinning the mantra of "there's choice here." I don't find an underage child having a "choice" in the matter of sex with an adult, nor do I find choice in putting up guard shacks, barbed wire and regimenting people's lives with fear.

[Ladybass0711]

Guys:

Is it me, or does the call sound like it is from a white person, and not a black person. To me it sounds like there is no way possible that a black person made those calls.

[mollymalone]

Children are remarkably resilient. In this particular case, it seems many of these children do not actually know who their real parents are. That makes me believe that no real bonding between mothers and children has ever occurred. The children can and will assimilate.

Taking a child from the mother at birth and handing it to several other "mothers" leaves little room for the bioligical mother to be able to bond with the child. It appears they may be taking those babies and not handing them over to women within their particular compound, but are sending them to others as well. It's no wonder those children have no idea who's their parents. There've been so many young children reassigned who have had to call each successive "father" their parent it's no wonder they're confused as to who daddy really is.

[Truly]

Children are remarkably resilient. In this particular case, it seems many of these children do not actually know who their real parents are. That makes me believe that no real bonding between mothers and children has ever occurred. The children can and will assimilate.

I know, Fairy1, and i love all of your posts. :blowkiss:

It's just that 'no real bonding between mother and child' is one of the most horrible things that can ever happen to a child.

I hate the FLDS for that most of all, more than anything else they have done.

[mysteriew]

Hm, well, he did take on 20 "younger" wives, although I've not seen any report on how old those wives were and he has fathered children unless that's all a smokescreen too and many of those children were reassigned babies. Edited to add: I do believe he's continued to assault young males though. I don't think he's changed his behaviour.

Pedos in the outside world have been known to marry single women with children, with the ultimate goal of obtaining access to her children.

[Fairy1]

I know, Fairy1, and i love all of your posts. :blowkiss:

It's just that 'no real bonding between mother and child' is one of the most horrible things that can ever happen to a child.

I hate the FLDS for that most of all, more than anything else they have done.

Me too. And not only is it horrible, but unnatural. The bond between mother and child transends nearly everything. I know that on these boards we read horror stor