Deaths of Male College Students

[Trino]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S422920.shtml?cat=1

This is from the Star Tribune (Minneapolis). LE officials are taking a look at the deaths of male college students throughout the nation. In every case the cause of death has been drownings, but maybe not...

[SewingDeb]

There's a thread somewhere about missing male college students. One poster has mapped a lot of them and there seems to be a pattern.

[shadowraiths]

There's a thread somewhere about missing male college students. One poster has mapped a lot of them and there seems to be a pattern.
Yup. I mapped this back in 2006 after the blogger from Southern Sass on Crime contacted me, as well as writing her own article (http://southernsassoncrime.com/?p=362). I was initially skeptical but statistics certainly raised questions to my mind. I have since written 3 articles pertaining to the deaths, as well as setting up a forum. Links are as follows:

Crime map:

Corridor 94 (http://crimsonshadows.net/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,27/)
Articles:

Corridor 94 (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/54/49/)
Dark Waters (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/93/49/)
River's Edge (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/95/49/)
Forum:

Corridor 94 (http://crimsonshadows.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

[MCDRAW]

I'm glad LE are finally taking a closer look. There are just too many coincidences.

[SuziQ]

Trino, thank you for posting this thread. It's good to know someone in LE is taking a closer look.

Shado, thank you for reposting your info. I had read them way back when and will again tonight.

Jesse Ross is the case that got to me. For some reason his case closed the deal for me regarding whether something hinky was going on.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/1206/1204_jesse_ross.html

[SuziQ]

Shado, do you know of the detectives that are the focus of tonights report? If you don't, they may find your reporting and information gathering usefull. They may appreciate you emailing them links to your info.

[shadowraiths]

Jesse Ross is the case that got to me. For some reason his case closed the deal for me regarding whether something hinky was going on.
I recall Ross' case. That was also around the time I stumbled upon a myspace page titled "The River Killer" I highly doubt this guy was... well, anything... If you check out the following screen cap (his profile has since been deleted), you might (or not) see what I mean...

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/shadowraiths/Forums/eb1e9a6c.jpg

Even so, I did cache his stuff, as I highly suspected it would disappear.

Shado, do you know of the detectives that are the focus of tonights report?
Nope, have no idea who they are. Though, I will be interested to hear what they have to say.

As an aside, I could have sworn I posted the following... somewhere... but now I cannot remember where. :waitasec: So, I'll just repost it here. This is from an archived message that I wrote on January 1, 2007:


For reference, here is the Stuff Magazine article that was heavily quoted in the Crime Library article: click here (http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=817)

It was published in 9/2004, so there is no new info, but it's all on one page and easier to read, although the Crime Library story has more details.

After about 2 hours yesterday, I was able to identify the "John Doe" noted in the article (he's the one with the drowning fetish and obsession with serial killers). His name is John Blake Lilly III. I was also able to find the original 4/2003 newspaper story about the police trying to serve a warrant on him for threatening his former employer, and then the ensuing car chase, but I got the article from NewsBank, so I can't post a link.

Essentially, Lilly worked as a maintenance man at the Paul Funeral Home, in St. Charles, MO., for a couple of weeks before he was fired. He then made threatening phone calls to Nancy L. Paul and her husband, Rob Marchbanks.

Prior to this case, on 3/4/03, Lilly was charged with harassing a relative of his, Dr. J. Kevin McGraw, a St. Peters dentist. Police say Lilly made a threatening phone call to McGraw, making racist remarks about his adopted children.

While court records indicate Lilly was incarcerated on 3/4/03, he must have made bail, because he was out when he threatened the Paul/Marchbanks family.

On 4/18/03, Lilly was charged with harassment in the Paul/Marchbanks matter, but when the police attempted to serve the warrant on 4/22/06, he rammed a police car and took off, leading LE on a high speed chase through St. Charles, which was televised!

On 4/22/03, Lilly was charged with stalking (the Paul/Marchbanks family).

On 4/24/03, Lilly was charged with 2nd degree assault on an LE officer (for the ramming) and resisting arrest for a felony.

On 4/25/03, Lilly was ordered to have a psych exam, but the records made no mention of the findings. Apparently, Lilly continued to harass his former employer, as on 8/27/03, he was ordered not to mention Marchbanks's name in any of his correspondence, except to his attorney.

The above cases were consolidated, and Lilly pled guilty to all charges on 12/4/03. He was sentenced to the following:

6 months for the first harassment charge, to run concurrent with 7 years (suspended) and 5 years probation for the assault on LE. He got 3 months for the 2nd harassment charge and 6 months for stalking, to run consecutive with the other sentences. He got credit for time served on all the sentences and was released in either June or July of 2004 (depending on the source).

Notably, on 5/11/04, Marchbanks got a civil judgment against Lilly for defamation to the tune of $49,998.00.

It's seems Lilly couldn't stay out of trouble, as on 4/26/05 he was charged with: 3rd degree assault; tampering (or attempting to tamper) with a witness or victim; concealing a misdemeanor; and stalking.

Another case was filed on 4/29/05 charging Lilly with: 2 counts of 3rd degree assault with physical injury.

The above cases were consolidated and (although he initially pled not guilty by reason of mental disease) Lilly pled guilty. He was sentenced to 1 year on each count to be run concurrently, with credit for time served. He was originally incarcerated at Fulton State Hospital, but now may be at Farmington Correctional Center. He remains in custody, but with the credit for time served BS, who knows when he may be out; however, that 7 year suspended sentence may come back to haunt him.

I have more info on Lilly, but I've already gone on too long. The point is that he was is custody from 4/22/03 to June or July of 2004, then again from 4/29/05 to the present, so he couldn't have the perpetrated any murders during those times. He is still one scary guy though, and someone to keep an eye on.

ETA: I forgot to mention that the newspaper article stated Lilly had 6 aliases (!), but I wasn't able to find out what they were.

[SuziQ]

Omg, that Myspace is sick, that guy is sick.

[SuziQ]

Wow! Watch the video that automatically starts first:

DETECTIVES: Chris Jenkins murder connects dozens around country Could there be a calculated, cross-country plot to kill young college men, including some in Minnesota? It seems a little hard to believe, but two New York detectives say, they can prove it.

Now, they are revealing years of their evidence for the first time to 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS...

GO DEEPER INTO THE INVESTIGATION:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

[SuziQ]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421883.shtml?cat=

Extended video clips of detectives discussing the case Below are extended video clips of detectives Athony Duarte and Kevin Gannon discussing the case.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif The investigation http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s419714.shtml?cat=1v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif The missing http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s419713.shtml?cat=1v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif The mistakes http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S419710.shtml?cat=1v=1)

[SuziQ]

Shado, in your research and travels on this case, had you ever heard anywhere about an organized gang commiting these murders? Frankly, the thought is so far out there for me that it never crossed my mind.

What are the chances that Smiley faces would be near or at the water entry point for so many? Now watch, I'm going to start seeing smiley faces everywhere I look. I wonder if the smiley face symbol itself could lead to the ID of the killer or killers?

[SuziQ]

Just for Sh*ts and giggles I'm posting a Wiki link to the Smiley Face. Notice where the smiley originated from. Is that weird or what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley

Origin
The very earliest known examples of the graphic are attributed to Alex Kerr, who devised the face in 1963 for a Cumberland, Wisconsin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland%2C_Wisconsin), Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)-based insurance firm, State Mutual Life Assurance.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley#cite_note-0)

[SuziQ]

Anchor John Mason and Investgative Reporter Kristi Piehl sat down to talk about how the case and the story have developed since Chris Jenkins disappeared:

CLIPS:

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif How Jan and Steve Jenkins kept the story going http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S418339.shtml?cat=1v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif More about our relationship with the detectives http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S418338.shtml?cat=1v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif We doubted the Jenkins at first http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S418337.shtml?cat=1v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif What if it were young women that went missing instead of young men? http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S418332.shtml?cat=1v=1)

ENTIRE INTERVIEW:

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif A STORY YEARS IN THE MAKING: Interview with John Mason and Kristi Piehl http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S418341.shtml?cat=1&v=1)

[shadowraiths]

Shado, in your research and travels on this case, had you ever heard anywhere about an organized gang commiting these murders? Frankly, the thought is so far out there for me that it never crossed my mind.

What are the chances that Smiley faces would be near or at the water entry point for so many? Now watch, I'm going to start seeing smiley faces everywhere I look. I wonder if the smiley face symbol itself could lead to the ID of the killer or killers?
I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing they're basing their hypothesis on this revelation (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/11/21/news/z07student.txt). If you notice, in this article, LE indicates that at least two individuals were involved in Jenkins' death, and that one of the suspects was in custody in another state on charges for another crime. As for the question of a gang? Sure, I would think that is quite possible. If it is however the case, then I would expect to learn that these deaths were some sort of "initiation ritual" as opposed to, say... your classical serial killer scenario. As for the smiley face? Yes, kinda creepy, if you ask me. Reminds me of some movie (I forget which) wherein the crook donned a smiley face mask when he was committing some sort of heinous crime. Hmmm... now I'm gonna have to go find that movie...

[SuziQ]

Hmmm... now I'm gonna have to go find that movie...

And now I'm going to go to bed and have nightmares. I'm rather freaked out over all the info I've gone through tonight. Hollywood couldn't write a script this scary.

[Blink34]

Just for Sh*ts and giggles I'm posting a Wiki link to the Smiley Face. Notice where the smiley originated from. Is that weird or what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley

Origin
The very earliest known examples of the graphic are attributed to Alex Kerr, who devised the face in 1963 for a Cumberland, Wisconsin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland%2C_Wisconsin), Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)-based insurance firm, State Mutual Life Assurance.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley#cite_note-0)

Can somebody research any link between the Forest Gump movie reference where he wipes his face and "invents" the smiley T?

[SuziQ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley

Movies and Television
The film Forrest Gump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Gump_%28film%29) (Robert Zemeckis, 1994) comically featured the smiley being "invented" when the main character wipes his mud-covered face off with a yellow t-shirt, and says "Have a nice day", inspiring a struggling businessman with the makeshift design. This scene is not in the original book.

[eve]

There's a thread in Up to the Minute on this (LaCrosse drownings) too, that I just commented on after hearing a radio broadcast on this this morning. I wonder if these two threads should be merged?

Eve

[eve]

There's a thread somewhere about missing male college students. One poster has mapped a lot of them and there seems to be a pattern.

Is there another one or it is in Up to the Minute - LaCrosse drownings? I am really interested in these cases.


Eve

[SuziQ]

Is there another one or it is in Up to the Minute - LaCrosse drownings? I am really interested in these cases.


Eve

Thanks for finding that thread. You can PM a mod and ask they be merged. I'm bringing the link for the other thread over here for now for reference.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43709

[eve]

Thanks for finding that thread. You can PM a mod and ask they be merged. I'm bringing the link for the other thread over here for now for reference.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43709

Thanks Suz, I pm'ed Addie!

Eve

[Blink34]

Can anyone PM the contact info for either of the detectives- I couldnt find it and I have limited online access today. Thanks

[fran]

I'm glad to see they're FINALLY linking these cases. I've followed this for so many years, I can't even count. I used to have a great deal of research, including students from NY to DC to Louisiana to MN and on and on. There are many more than twenty if you really check it out. More like 40 or 50. Heck, there could even be more.

Google is your friend when researching this case. Use your imagination.

here's a link to start anyone new to these disappearances.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

This is what this case needed all along. A link. The 'happy face.' Interesting.

JMHO
fran

PS.....FWIW, I don't think it's a 'gang' type thing so much as a 'life style' type of organization, internet,....state to state connection. Yeah, I have a BIG imagination! and I have my theories. Because I think my theory is waayyy too bizarre, I think I'll wait to see what LE comes up with. I'm very patient! fran

[SuziQ]

We know that pedophiles have a symbol to give a heads up to others like them. What group does the smiley represent?

[SuziQ]

I keep thinking back to the Myspace page that Shado posted. It would normally be absurd to think the person responsible would put himself out there like that. However, the Myspace page is so sanitized and clean compared to what he posted in words that it bothers me greatly. Usually we see someone like that and their pages are blinged out with evil and gory images that match their words. IMO, if this guy isn't involved. He wants to be, or at least admires the work if you KWIM? He's not about to taint his admiration with foolish bling.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/shadowraiths/Forums/eb1e9a6c.jpg

[SuziQ]

Fran, that's a great link you provided. Copy and pasted below is from that link. Are we looking at a GHB type of thing?

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

January 12, 2006

Rumors are flying all over La Crosse about a University of Wisconsin student who says he had a near-death experience in the river. In a most remarkable story, the as of yet unidentified man claims he was drinking with friends in a downtown bar until about 1:45 AM on Sunday, January 8 -- but then somehow ended up in the middle of the Mississippi.

He doesn't know how he got in the water, but he knows how he got out.

According to an article in the La Crosse Tribune (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/01/12/news/00lead.txt), the student "found himself in the river, fighting a strong current that was rapidly carrying him downstream. After an estimated 15 minutes, he was able to grab onto a tall concrete structure and pull himself to shore, where he likely passed out . . ."

Around 7:00 AM that morning, the 21-year-old showed up at a nearby hospital. Confused, covered in mud, and missing his shirt and shoes, he was unable to provide any details of what had happened to him.

Apparently no one witnessed the incident or any of the events that led up to it.

If true, the student's bizarre experience may provide investigators with valuable information and insights into the drowned student phenomenon. Over a seven-year period, seven young men from La Crosse went missing and were subsequently found dead in area rivers.

The Tribune quotes police chief Ed Kondracki as being "relieved and pleased to know the man survived, but disappointed to hear another intoxicated young man had fallen into the river."

Not so fast, Chief.

No one should be relieved or pleased about this story. How do we know the man FELL into the river? Maybe he did, but then, why can't he recall where, when or how? Something doesn't add up here. Was he, in fact, ALONE the entire time?

Chief Kondracki may be relieved, but I'm unnerved to hear that -- as in so many of these mysterious cases -- this student had somehow become separated from his hat, coat, shoes and cell phone.

[SuziQ]

Much more info on the man that woke up in the river:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/01/12/news/00lead.txt

The man told police he and his buddies took a cab that evening from a home in the 400 block of South 20th Street to the downtown bars.

The man said he recalls being in a bar about 1:45 a.m., but remembers very little after that until he found himself in the river, fighting a strong current that was rapidly carrying him downstream. After an estimated 15 minutes, he was able to grab onto a tall concrete structure and pull himself to shore, where he likely passed out, he told police.

Later, the man awoke on a rocky bank near Gundersen Lutheran, with the sound of traffic over his left shoulder, he told police.

[fran]

We know that pedophiles have a symbol to give a heads up to others like them. What group does the smiley represent?

SuzieQ:

I don't know what group it represents. To whatever group is doing this, it could be a sign to their own group to signal it was them?

From your post 12 above with a link to Wikipedia, it says;

"The smiley is largely associated in the UK with the acid house dance music culture that emerged in during the second summer of love in the late 1980s, often used as engraving famous logos on ecstasy tablets at the time."

Just a thought. PLUS, that would coincide how some of these guys got taken so easily. Date rape drug, GHB.............

One of the articles I read earlier today, has a story of one guy who actually 'woke up' in the water and survived. He didn't remember how he ended up there, but he did survive and made it to a hospital, minus shirt and shoes, I believe.........interesting, huh?

JMHO
fran

PS....Another use of the smiley I found earlier today but can't find it now, was in a cartoon, a charactor that caused death and hovac..:(....fran

PPS...Oh, Suzie, I see you found the guy who woke up. I'll leave my post though, :)

[SuziQ]

Fran, you betcha that case of the guy who woke up in the river caught my attention! So does your connection on the smiley logo and Ecstasy tabs. The amnesiac(sp) factor is what stands out for me. And IIRC, GHB dissapates quickly in a body and wouldn't be detected in an autopsy right? What about ecstasy?

[fran]

LOL, oh Suzie, you're full of good info! :)

FWIW, if you look into the missing, found drowned, male persons in the midwest etc., missing from a night on the town, there are many young men. (meaning they can be say, under 30.)

JMHO
fran

[fran]

Fran, you betcha that case of the guy who woke up in the river caught my attention! So does your connection on the smiley logo and Ecstasy tabs. The amnesiac(sp) factor is what stands out for me. And IIRC, GHB dissapates quickly in a body and wouldn't be detected in an autopsy right? What about ecstasy?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't show up, Suzi.

I have felt for year these cases were related, but I could never get a connection per se. Now the smiley face, you betcha'!!

The problem has always been LE completely dismissed anyone who said they were related. Heck, even the FBI said a few years ago, no.

Now these two detectives have found a link. And that street name is spooky and {proof} of the connection.

TWO coincidences, NO WAY! There is 'no coincidence when it comes to murder.'

JMHO
fran

[fran]

This is kinda' spooky. Wonder if this group got their idea from this comic? :(

fran


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Ernie

Evil Ernie

Evil Ernie is a fictional character, an undead, psychotic killer with his own series, published by Chaos! Comics and Devil's Due Publishing.

<<snip>>

Ernest Fairchild is the root or core of Evil Ernie.

[SuziQ]

Here is a link to a pic of an ecstasy tablet. There are several out there. They differentiate by region:

http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=1434

[shadowraiths]

Some quick thoughts...

Def not paedos. By definition alone, they're into prepubescent children (under 12/13) whereas the mean age of these victims is 21.

They indicate this is the work of multiple people from various locations and then propose that is a serial killer scenario. I'm unsure if they do not fully understand the def of "serial killer" or...

Whatever the case, if there are commonalities, and it is the work of this so-called "gang"... again, I would say it would fall more into some sort of initiation ritual as opposed to your classic serial killer. Which brings me to the next bit.

The smilie. From the article, they say:

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/smileyface.jpg

The paint color and size of the face varies, but the detectives are convinced that it's a sick signature the killers leave behind.
Okay, so... assuming that all smilies look like this, I guess the first question that comes to mind is, what's up with the "cross" (?) on the forehead? That is so Manson-ish.

Jensen's mother is quoted as saying:

"I can honestly tell you that I've walked every step of the way and it is hard for me to believe," Chris' mother Jan Jenkins told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS. "The level of evil we are dealing with here is rampant, it's deep and it's widespread."
So, perhaps that is what they are alluding to? I suppose we'll find out... tonite, or tomorrow nite, or whenever they get around to telling us. One thing for certain, the news station sure seems to be playing their audience...

[SuziQ]

Here is a link to a drawing of Evil Ernie with the smiley face and crossbones.

http://www.toonopedia.com/evilrnie.htm

Shado, the cross is interesting. Could be indicative of religious undertones or a cult like one anyways. I certainly hope Channel 6 doesn't leave us hanging!

[SuziQ]

There are three threads going now. I've sent a request to the mods for a merger or forum since some of the vics are missing, missing and found and one ruled a homicide.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63890

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63931

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43709

[aj1020]

I just posted this on the other thread and realize it will be duplicated when the threads are merged, but check it out anyway. This is an article from June, 2007 giving a bit more background on the investigative work:

http://www.midiowanews.com/site/tab1... 554432&rfi=6

Also, the article appears to allude that Bolanos case is related to these others, the "tags" must be the smiley faces...


Throughout the entire process, I didn't ask the crew very many questions because, as I said, I have come to accept the fact that nothing at work will ever be "typical." But after they had been in the tunnel for another half an hour, I had to ask Gilbertson what they were doing.

According to Gilbertson, who also is an expert in gang activity, two unusual marks or "tags" have been found near the scene where a number of the drowning victims were found.

"Do you think they found it in the tunnel?" I asked.

"I don't think they would be in there this long if they didn't," Gilbertson said.

[ladygator]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/70812772_05447a992a.jpg

[shadowraiths]

I remember watching the televised trial (though I was still a kid when the whole Manson thing went down). People involved in the trial (guards, etcetera) were totally creeped out by this guy. And now, as then, he had his followers... but anyway, for a side-by-side comparison of LG's find, the smiley, and an earlier pic, you may (or not) see why the smiley reminded me of the guy.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/70812772_05447a992a.jpg http://kstp.com/kstpImages/smileyface.jpg http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00113/Charles_Manson_113318h.jpg


ETA ~ outside of the creep factor, it's prolly nothing

[eve]

Fran, that's a great link you provided. Copy and pasted below is from that link. Are we looking at a GHB type of thing?

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

January 12, 2006

Rumors are flying all over La Crosse about a University of Wisconsin student who says he had a near-death experience in the river. In a most remarkable story, the as of yet unidentified man claims he was drinking with friends in a downtown bar until about 1:45 AM on Sunday, January 8 -- but then somehow ended up in the middle of the Mississippi.

He doesn't know how he got in the water, but he knows how he got out.

According to an article in the La Crosse Tribune (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/01/12/news/00lead.txt), the student "found himself in the river, fighting a strong current that was rapidly carrying him downstream. After an estimated 15 minutes, he was able to grab onto a tall concrete structure and pull himself to shore, where he likely passed out . . ."

Around 7:00 AM that morning, the 21-year-old showed up at a nearby hospital. Confused, covered in mud, and missing his shirt and shoes, he was unable to provide any details of what had happened to him.

Apparently no one witnessed the incident or any of the events that led up to it.

If true, the student's bizarre experience may provide investigators with valuable information and insights into the drowned student phenomenon. Over a seven-year period, seven young men from La Crosse went missing and were subsequently found dead in area rivers.

The Tribune quotes police chief Ed Kondracki as being "relieved and pleased to know the man survived, but disappointed to hear another intoxicated young man had fallen into the river."

Not so fast, Chief.

No one should be relieved or pleased about this story. How do we know the man FELL into the river? Maybe he did, but then, why can't he recall where, when or how? Something doesn't add up here. Was he, in fact, ALONE the entire time?

Chief Kondracki may be relieved, but I'm unnerved to hear that -- as in so many of these mysterious cases -- this student had somehow become separated from his hat, coat, shoes and cell phone.

Suz,

I agree with you. Not so fast. Too easy and lazy to blame yet another tragedy on drinking. It doesn't add up. It scares me as the mom of a young man in college at UW/Madison. I know the kids party which obviously has risks and my son tells me they use the buddy system but if the victims were slipped something...

Also I heard in several cases that LE searched sites where bodies were found for hours, finding nothing, and yet not long after, something belonging to one of the victims would be found, as Chris Jenkins' hat, I believe, was, placed neatly near the site.

Eve

[shadowraiths]

Fran, you betcha that case of the guy who woke up in the river caught my attention! So does your connection on the smiley logo and Ecstasy tabs. The amnesiac(sp) factor is what stands out for me. And IIRC, GHB dissapates quickly in a body and wouldn't be detected in an autopsy right? What about ecstasy?
Both GHB & Ketamine, actually. If you take a look at that home page (http://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php) of the link you posted (http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=1434), some types of ecstasy appear to include Ketamine. While Ketamine has long been considered a horse tranq, there seems to have been a surge in street use. And its effects do appear to include short term memory loss.

[shadowraiths]

Coroner puzzled by SIU student's drowning
April 04, 2008

A coroner says the drowning death of a Southern Illinois University graduate student from China is puzzling.

Jackson County Coroner Thomas Kupferer (KOOP'-fer-er) says no foul play is suspected in the death of 31-year-old Huaijun Meng (hew-eye-juhn ming).

Meng was found fully clothed and face down Wednesday in water about three feet deep on the Carbondale campus.

Full article: click here (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/illinoisnews/story/1E9B9AFEB10DE3A18625741F00571B74?OpenDocument)

Memorial: click here (http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage/paper1096/news/2008/04/25/Campus/Doctoral.Student.Remembered.By.Department-3348491.shtml)

[shadowraiths]

Former Plattsburgh State student drowned
Body pulled from Hudson River
By ANDREA VanVALKENBURG
April 23, 2008

Joshua Szostak's family and friends are in mourning after learning the former Plattsburgh State student drown in the Hudson River.

Exactly four months after the 21-year-old mysteriously disappeared from downtown Albany, his body was positively identified as the man who was pulled from the Hudson River Tuesday afternoon.

A fisherman spotted Szostak floating in the cold water near a boat launch in Coxsackie around 2 p.m., and when his body was pulled from the river, authorities found his wallet and other personal effects.

His body was positively identified during an autopsy Wednesday morning.

The Latham man disappeared early Dec. 23 after spending the night bar hopping and celebrating his friend's 21st birthday.

Full article: click here (http://www.pressrepublican.com/homepage/local_story_114214512.html?keyword=topstory)

[hockeymom]

Former Plattsburgh State student drowned
Body pulled from Hudson River
By ANDREA VanVALKENBURG
April 23, 2008



Full article: click here (http://www.pressrepublican.com/homepage/local_story_114214512.html?keyword=topstory)

I was just going to post this, as this is right near where I live. Something is really fishy with this story. From all accounts this kid was not totally smashed when he left the bar,and certainly not drunk enough to go walking into the Hudson River . I'm sure there was foul play.

[shadowraiths]

I was just going to post this, as this is right near where I live. Something is really fishy with this story. From all accounts this kid was not totally smashed when he left the bar,and certainly not drunk enough to go walking into the Hudson River . I'm sure there was foul play.
Hmmm... it looks like there's also a thread on this case: click here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57912)

Imho, it would be helpful if they did create a forum for missing and/or drowned college men.

[shadowraiths]

Omg, that Myspace is sick, that guy is sick.
Just as an fyi, I've uploaded the myspace cache to my server: click here (http://cyberpaths.crimsonshadows.net/riverkiller/)

[MCDRAW]

Omg, that Myspace is sick, that guy is sick.


Not only is he sick, but the 103 friends that he has are too. One of them is even holding a child. Could this be related to some type of cult?

[SuziQ]

Woo hoo! We're gonna get some more info tonight. This ought to be interesting:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

They have already taken all of this evidence in the Jenkins case to Minneapolis Police and Hennepin County prosecutors--so why haven't they taken action? We will ask them.

Watch 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Friday night at 10:00 to find out how Minneapolis Police and Hennepin County prosecutors responded.

[SuziQ]

I keep thinking back to the Myspace page that Shado posted. It would normally be absurd to think the person responsible would put himself out there like that. However, the Myspace page is so sanitized and clean compared to what he posted in words that it bothers me greatly. Usually we see someone like that and their pages are blinged out with evil and gory images that match their words. IMO, if this guy isn't involved. He wants to be, or at least admires the work if you KWIM? He's not about to taint his admiration with foolish bling.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/shadowraiths/Forums/eb1e9a6c.jpg

Mcdraw, I'm bumping this post up because it explains why that site bothers me. Myspace would be a great way to network. I still think this guy at least admires the River Killings. Scary.

Shado, when you originally found this page, did you find out anything interesting on this guy?

[SuziQ]

Don't know if this has anything to do with these cases...

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S425068.shtml?cat=1

Breaking news:
A body was recovered near the Mississippi River Friday night.
Police are at the scene near Lake Street and West River Parkway in Minneapolis.
Police tell 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS the incident may be suspicious in nature.
Stay with 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS and KSTP.com for updates as they become available.

[SuziQ]

The part 2 video isn't linked to the article yet. But at the front page of this site it's on the right under What are authorites doing about the Jenkins murder investigation. Click on next to find the video. On Monday there will be a report on the Albany NY case Shado listed.

http://www.kstp.com/

[shadowraiths]

For those interested in the statistical side of things, I've uploaded the data, stat info, and a couple of graphs. They can be found here (http://crimsonshadows.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1000).

NB: The BAC percentages pertains to only those with reported BAC (to avoid an unnatural skew)

[SuziQ]

For those interested in the statistical side of things, I've uploaded the data, stat info, and a couple of graphs. They can be found here (http://crimsonshadows.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1000).

NB: The BAC percentages pertains to only those with reported BAC (to avoid an unnatural skew)

Thank you so much and you have a pm.

[SuziQ]

Shado, looking at your list, the BAC is N/A. Does that mean they had no BAC? If so, then LE can't even use drinking as an excuse.

[MistyM]

oh wow if this subject could get it's own section that would be awesome. it's really hard to find all the information when it's scattered. i know some of these missing guys we have in here could be victims too.

ps. awesome info shadow.

[shadowraiths]

Shado, looking at your list, the BAC is N/A. Does that mean they had no BAC? If so, then LE can't even use drinking as an excuse.
Correct. Which I noted in my River's Edge (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/95/49/) article. Basically, the breakdown is as follows.

Reported to have been drinking, whose BAC was also reported = [BAC %]
Reported to have been drinking, whose BAC was not reported = [unknown]
Not Reported to have been drinking = N/A

[shadowraiths]

After listening to these two reports, it appears the purpose of this series is to garner public interest in hopes to pressure LE to investigate these cases further. At least, that's my take.

[SuziQ]

After listening to these two reports, it appears the purpose of this series is to garner public interest in hopes to pressure LE to investigate these cases further. At least, that's my take.

That's my take on it too. I'm hoping that LE working on Joshua's case in N.Y. will take an unjaded approach. and I'm hoping that the fact the two detectives are from N.Y. will cause their info to be more welcome. All we need is one of these agencies to accept the theory to get the ball rolling.

[shadowraiths]

Mcdraw, I'm bumping this post up because it explains why that site bothers me. Myspace would be a great way to network. I still think this guy at least admires the River Killings. Scary.

Shado, when you originally found this page, did you find out anything interesting on this guy?
Nope. Just noticed that a lot of those on their friends list were from La Crosse, seemed to be in their mid 30s, and seemed to be into serial killers. The creep factor is what compelled me to cache the page. That there were so many on their friends list is what compelled me to write it off. Now, with this latest theory, I got to thinking there might really be something there. Which is why I decided to upload the cached material to my server.

[MCDRAW]

Don't know if this has anything to do with these cases...

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S425068.shtml?cat=1

Breaking news:
A body was recovered near the Mississippi River Friday night.
Police are at the scene near Lake Street and West River Parkway in Minneapolis.
Police tell 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS the incident may be suspicious in nature.
Stay with 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS and KSTP.com for updates as they become available.


I'm wondering if this victim's name could be Luke?

[Seven]

I apologize if someone already posted this.
I just heard about it tonight.

In this video report they refer to a gang that murdered
Chris Jenkins, calling them the "smiley face killers"


http://i29.tinypic.com/vr4ga9.jpg

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s424705.shtml?cat=1v=1

SUMMARY SO FAR:

Watch part 1 of our investigation http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S421846.shtml?cat=1&v=1)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif THE JENKINS FILE: Rarely-seen documents related to the Chris Jenkins murder case (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421907.shtml?cat=63)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Interactive Map of victims possibly linked by the investigation (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s414698.shtml?cat=63)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Visual timeline of the Jenkins murder case in Minneapolis (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s417805.shtml?cat=10848)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Extended video clips of detectives discussing the case http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421883.shtml?cat=)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Kristi Piehl and John Mason talk about how the case has developed http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000video.gif (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421879.shtml?cat=63)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif List of possible Minn. and Wisc. victims (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421937.shtml?cat=63)

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Kristi Piehl: How the story came about
(http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421849.shtml?cat=63)
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/000arrow.gif Listen to Kristi Piehl talk about the story on the KQRS Morning Show (http://kstp.com/article/stories/s424554.shtml?cat=63v=1)


Monday morning on Good Morning America will also have a piece on this

[MeoW333]

This sounds more like some kind of "cult" or unorganized "gang"; i doubt they are affiliated with any known street gang.
We have to see what do all these young men that drowned have in common? Would they all be a member of the same "clique" if they knew each other? Did they all dress in a similar manner? Young white men, preppy, average style clothes? All were drowned after a night of drinking.
What do these young men represent to the killers? I think it may be more of a cult style scenario or group of organized people who are doing this for their own sick "fun" as opposed to initiation. Roofies definitely are involved or some kind of date rape drug; as the survivor didn't remember anything. Combined with alcohol, it should intensify the effects.

[SuziQ]

Very interesting interview with a radio station. Kristi starts of talking about how all the vics would have been best of friends had they known each other because they are all so much alike. They also discuss the "torture" issue. The torture they use doesn't leave evidence.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s424554.shtml?cat=63v=1

5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Investigative Reporter Kristi Piehl appeared on the KQRS morning show Friday morning to talk about her groundbreaking investigation surrounding the murder of University of Minnesota college student Chris Jenkins and the possible connection to other river deaths around the country…

[cheko1]

KSTP is notorious for keeping investigations going. JMO

Kristi & Tim Shivo from 5 News work very hard on there stories.

I am very glad that Chris Jenkins murder is once again in the News. To many college students have mysteriously drowned. Chris was in to good of shape not to of put up a fight. JMO

[SuziQ]

In the radio interview Kristi talks about a case that's particularly disturbing. Jeff Geesey. She says we'll find out more about him this week. Kristi also say the detectives point out that each pod has their own torture method. The men found are vics of mental torture. The pods who inflict physical torture dispose of the bodies so they aren't found.

Rain pours down on a cold Wisconsin night as a man fights the current of the Mississippi River. It’s almost 2 A.M., and Jeff Geesey, a college sophomore in La Crosse, Wisconsin, is drunk. Lightning illuminates the sky as Geesey struggles in the violent currents until his arms and legs go numb. Exhausted, he succumbs to hypothermia and disappears beneath the water.


http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=817

[hockeymom]

This reporter was on Coast to Coast last night. ( www.coasttocoastam.com.).
I hope this continues to get national attention.

[SuziQ]

Map of the Missing
Milwaukee agents have investigated an Ann Arbor, Mich., man accused of stalking an old girlfriend and her family. "In threatening e-mail messages, he uses the initials of some of the missing men," 12 News investigative reporter Colleen Henry said.

Most interesting is how closely his path mirrors the map of the missing men. He recently moved from Ann Arbor to the Minneapolis area. His old girlfriend is a student at Concordia University in Mequon, just 35 miles south of Sheboygan on Interstate 43.

The FBI declined comment and the bureau's official position remains that these disappearances are not related.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

[SuziQ]

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

Autopsy results:

Christopher Jenkins' Blood Alcohol Level was measured as
.12 in the aorta and .07 in the muscle tissue

Cause of death: Undetermined

Manner of death: Apparent Drowning

Mr. Jenkins had very little water in his lungs

[SuziQ]

SS or someone were looking for an article about the protective fencing being put up to prevent further drownings. I do remember the fencing. All I've found so far the info pasted below. I love how the authorities and civic leaders attempt to write the deaths off as drunken accidents backfired on them. Paybacks are a bitch aren't they?

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_2.html


August 25, 2004
The Cost of Doing Nothing
In the first civil suit to be filed in any of the Midwest missing student drownings, La Crosse and the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse have been accused of contributing to the drowning death of Jared Dion.

Authorities from the city and college immediately and repeatedly blamed Dion's strange disappearance and death on a dangerous combination of the open bank of the Mississippi River and student binge drinking.

So be it.

Seeking $250,000, parents, Bryan and Kim Dion, and brother, Adam, state in a notice of claim that the college encouraged binge drinking with repeated school newspaper ads for drink specials at downtown bars -- and that the city encouraged binge drinking by offering free rides to bars using what students call, "the drunk bus."

Echoing words spoken by Chief Kondracki during April's tumultuous town meeting, the suit will allege the city failed to adequately provide policing, fencing, surveillance cameras or other obvious safety measures near the river.

Considering the alarming numbers of young men from La Crosse who have turned up dead in the Mississippi -- city and University officials can't reasonably claim they weren't aware of the problem.

The notice states: "The university and city had notice of this dangerous combination of students’ binge drinking in taverns/bars near the Mississippi River from multiple other drowning deaths since 1997 involving similar circumstances to Jared Dion’s untimely death."

[eve]

I have sent Adnoid 2 links to the Up to the Minute and Crimes threads on these cases as he asked me, so he can merge them - if there are other threads to include will someone send the links to Addie? Thanks guys!

Eve

[SuziQ]

I have sent Adnoid 2 links to the Up to the Minute and Crimes threads on these cases as he asked me, so he can merge them - if there are other threads to include will someone send the links to Addie? Thanks guys!

Eve


We are actually going to get a forum. Chico is working on it this weekend. I asked that the threads be brought over to the forum and locked and one general discussion thread started. It's too much of a logistical nightmare to combine the threads.

[shadowraiths]

"Milwaukee agents have investigated an Ann Arbor, Mich., man accused of stalking an old girlfriend and her family. "In threatening e-mail messages, he uses the initials of some of the missing men," 12 News investigative reporter Colleen Henry said.

[...]

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

Here's the original news report (http://www.channel3000.com/news/1973837/detail.html).

[hockeymom]

I just heard that this story was going to be discussed on Fox news. I have to go out so won't see it,but obviously its getting alot of attention.
It seems to me there have been other "accidental" drownings in upstate NY of college men. I'm not saying they could all be related,but who knows?

[shadowraiths]

We are actually going to get a forum. Chico is working on it this weekend.
That's nice to know! Thanks SuziQ & Chico!

[eve]

We are actually going to get a forum. Chico is working on it this weekend. I asked that the threads be brought over to the forum and locked and one general discussion thread started. It's too much of a logistical nightmare to combine the threads.

Awesome, that's great. Thanks, Suz.

Eve

[SuziQ]

The mods will have to decide what the best course of action will be. But it appears that the best course of action regarding all the 40+ cases is not to pull their individual threads over to the forum because if they are found not to be related to The River Killer they will have to be moved back. A logistical nightmare. Sooooo, when the forum is started leaving their cases where they are seems to be the best way and create a catagory of possible related cases by State for discussion in the forum might be the best way to go. The mods have the final decision on that though.

[Littledeer]

I was just wondering...............are most of these colleges private or public?? Is there any correlation with that to known information?

[SuziQ]

I was just wondering...............are most of these colleges private or public?? Is there any correlation with that to known information?

I believe they are both private and public. The below link has some of the vics and the colleges they attended. Make sure at the bottom of the page you go to page two updates.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_2.html

[Blink34]

Mcdraw, I'm bumping this post up because it explains why that site bothers me. Myspace would be a great way to network. I still think this guy at least admires the River Killings. Scary.

Shado, when you originally found this page, did you find out anything interesting on this guy?

He referes to a Pearl Street Cafe, Josh Szostak was last seen at the Bayou cafe on North Pearl Street in Albany- code?
And there is a smiley on Decibels myspace

[Littledeer]

Suzi:

Thanks for the quick response. In retrospect, that was a "not so bright question." I didn't think in any way that all of these college men came from just a public school or a private school. But more was thinking of the "gang serial killing" that is being tossed around by other posters. Was wondering if there was a correlation of whether the majority were public vs. private colleges and in relation to the states.......etc. etc. etc.

Now that I read above..........I find it hard to believe that it's a "gang serial killing" that goes to different states to kill young men in bars. However, there is no doubt............I feel there is some correlation between some of the cases. (not all, imo).

But then again, I have not been here long enough to question everything.......:bang:

[SuziQ]

Now that I read above..........I find it hard to believe that it's a "gang serial killing" that goes to different states to kill young men in bars. However, there is no doubt............I feel there is some correlation between some of the cases. (not all, imo).



You are in the same place I am with this.

[SuziQ]

He referes to a Pearl Street Cafe, Josh Szostak was last seen at the Bayou cafe on North Pearl Street in Albany- code?
And there is a smiley on Decibels myspace

Interesting. I hate Myspace and avoid signing into it at all cost. So thanks for digging deeper. And keep track of that info for future reference. I'm still creeped out by the matter of fact factor of that Myspace page. Usually when someone's page has comments like that, there is rediculous bling and or gory content to either show the person is a nut or joking. There is nothing on that Myspace page that shows the owner is anything but serious. IMO, it's very psychopathic, and calculating.

[Littledeer]

Nice to know I'm not all alone.............:blowkiss:

Hopefully, there will be a forum, all these threads and jumping around is getting ridiculous, especially one who has a broken wrist and is just trying to put some little input today.

[SuziQ]

Nice to know I'm not all alone.............:blowkiss:

Hopefully, there will be a forum, all these threads and jumping around is getting ridiculous, especially one who has a broken wrist and is just trying to put some little input today.

Omg, I hope you are ok? Get better quick. This is going to really start jumping on Monday.

[Littledeer]

Fine, Fine. Sorry, for going o/t and bringing up my problem. It was a case of the dog winning the war. :)

Now, I really am concerned about these missing men and the numbers of them last seen at a bar and then the drownings........

My son is in college and he is 23.........and I am feeling very very paranoid right now. The only blessing in disguise is that he is in a state that I have not seen yet mentioned. (Will not mention the state). See, that's how paranoid I am.

He has offered me some ideas on Nick's case.........and he has helped in how college guys behave, etc.

[Trino]

I believe they are both private and public. The below link has some of the vics and the colleges they attended. Make sure at the bottom of the page you go to page two updates.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_2.html

I wonder if it's small size schools vs. larger campuses. LaCrosse, for example, is public but small.

[Blink34]

Interesting. I hate Myspace and avoid signing into it at all cost. So thanks for digging deeper. And keep track of that info for future reference. I'm still creeped out by the matter of fact factor of that Myspace page. Usually when someone's page has comments like that, there is rediculous bling and or gory content to either show the person is a nut or joking. There is nothing on that Myspace page that shows the owner is anything but serious. IMO, it's very psychopathic, and calculating.

I have a seriously bad feeling about this whole situation, if you dont mind me stating the obvious..

[SuziQ]

Fine, Fine. Sorry, for going o/t and bringing up my problem. It was a case of the dog winning the war. :)

Now, I really am concerned about these missing men and the numbers of them last seen at a bar and then the drownings........

My son is in college and he is 23.........and I am feeling very very paranoid right now. The only blessing in disguise is that he is in a state that I have not seen yet mentioned. (Will not mention the state). See, that's how paranoid I am.

He has offered me some ideas on Nick's case.........and he has helped in how college guys behave, etc.

I'm glad you are ok and I'll be interested to hear what your son's thoughts are.

I just posted in another thread that I feel that men need to realize that they can become victims as easily as women do. And maybe easier sometimes because of the situations they put themselves in. For instance, IMO, men would be more likely to attempt to walk home drunk than a woman would.

Get that word out to your son and his friends. I'm going to have a discussion with my daughters fiance tomorrow at Sunday dinner. Him and his roomies fit the profile to a tee. Above average students and athletes, they looks like the vics and they are all under 27.

[Blink34]

I'm glad you are ok and I'll be interested to hear what your son's thoughts are.

I just posted in another thread that I feel that men need to realize that they can become victims as easily as women do. And maybe easier sometimes because of the situations they put themselves in. For instance, IMO, men would be more likely to attempt to walk home drunk than a woman would.

Get that word out to your son and his friends. I'm going to have a discussion with my daughters fiance tomorrow at Sunday dinner. Him and his roomies fit the profile to a tee. Above average students and athletes, they looks like the vics and they are all under 27.

I agree, and I think the no.1 rule that these men, or really anyone should employ, is to USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM!! Do not leave or go by yourself, that is the one thing all the vics have in common.

[Littledeer]

Same for my son, athletic, football player and does the college drinking.

I have really been on his case since I've become a member here and read all the horror stories of college men.

It appears to be more of the "small campus" types where most of the men disappear from.........again...........we need some type of a forum and spreadsheet to help us. Thank God for those detectives...........now us WS's can help them out I beleive with our collective expertise in different fields. :blowkiss:

(Blink: I posted on Mike's thread)

[Parmenides]

I have deleted this post, which I now realise was wrong and irresponsible. Please everybody accept my apologies.

[SeriouslySearching]

What is the problem here?<balance of quote deleted>.I am betting if one of those men were your son, you would have a different opinion.

ALL males are not immature and irresponsible! People do not get drunk in large numbers and walk into a river. If it happened only once or twice maybe I could buy it...but not this many. Common sense would tell you that it didn't happen that way. We do have plenty of men who are victims of crimes so I don't understand where you are coming from.

[Littledeer]

Only females are victims. All males are abusers, period.

I am NOT trying or going to start a war here. But, imo, this statement completely blew my mind away.

I find it reprehensible, offensive, etc. It is completely UNTRUE that ONLY females are victims and all males are abusers.

IMO, you need to read some more here Parmendies. I have two sons and neither one of them have abused any female in their lifetime. But any day, one of them could become a victim.

So please, if you need to speak your opinion, I appreciate that. But don't use the words "only" and "all" inclusive.

:blowkiss:

[shadowraiths]

Interesting blog: Footprints At The River's Edge (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/)

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree, and I think the no.1 rule that these men, or really anyone should employ, is to USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM!! Do not leave or go by yourself, that is the one thing all the vics have in common.My girlfriends and I always stick to that rule when we go out. We never let our pals out of our sight. Safety is always an issue when you are out on the town...male or female of any age! You are so right that it is the one thing all the vics have in common, Blink.

[shadowraiths]

People do not get drunk in large numbers and walk into a river.
Statistically speaking, this is quite true, actually. And it is one glaring thing that supports the serial killer(s) theory.

[Littledeer]

My son told me that when they are on campus, they feel like the entire area is "their home", so they feel completely comfortable walking alone at any time. (Big mistake I told him...........)

When they go to bars, etc. there is a buddy system in place along with a dd, but guys being guys.........he says the buddy usually ends up drinking anyways. That is the young male college mindset these days at his campus.

Probably not just his, but in most of the colleges.

[Littledeer]

So how are we coming along on getting a forum??

ss: DO YOU KNOW?? :blowkiss:

[shadowraiths]

I tried to ignore this post but just can't get past this bit...

Even if they were murdered, so what? Some sick males murdered some other males. Well, cry me a river.

Do you really feel this way? Or are you just having a bad day?

[Blink34]

What is the problem here? <balance of quote snipped>

I support your right to your opinion, however, here's mine: That is one of the most grossly irresponsible posts I have ever seen, and if you are not on this thread or any other to contribute productive and objective thought towards any of the many serious issues here, perhaps you could develop your own blog that I will never visit.

[SuziQ]

So how are we coming along on getting a forum??

ss: DO YOU KNOW?? :blowkiss:

Forum is in the works. Should happen in the next few days.

[MCDRAW]

What is the problem here?<balance of quote snipped>.

Wow. I have tons of males in my life...none are abusers. The fact that you could care less, if they were murdered; because they were males, really shows a lack of humanity on your part.

[Parmenides]

That is one of the most grossly irresponsible posts I have ever seen, and if you are not on this thread or any other to contribute productive and objective thought towards any of the many serious issues here, perhaps you could develop your own blog that I will never visit.

I apologise.

[MeoW333]

What if there is a few different serial killers doing the killing and they are not in contact with one another? Maybe it could have been a copycat effect off the first cases. We all are aware of the "smiley" signature; a smiley face is common enough.. maybe one sicko got the idea from reading about it and then another sicko did. So they may not necessarily be aware of who the others killing are. (just throwing out some scenarios)
If the young men are given roofies or a date rape drug and it is slipped into their drink while they are still in the bar with their friends, then it may get to a point where they aren't going to remember who went near their beers. Young men that age, not feeling well, may not want to mention it aloud (pride) and attempt to walk home or walk away to get sick or figure out why they are feeling like they are (drug slipped into drink). We also can't rule out that it's possible it is a female killer(s) involved also and is helping to lure these young men or even doing the killings.
The "x" type mark that is on the forehead of the smiley face almost looks like a target as if one were to be executed shot in the forehead, etc. I know at some point in the 1990's they were making t-shirts of smileys with a dripping blood bullet wound there.
I guess what the best to figure out would be can it be certain exactly how many killers could be out there? So do we have one (or 2 if this is a couple scenario) working and moving around or different killers working separately.
They are obviously organized; in that they know to leave no evidence of who they are.

[SuziQ]

I apologise <balance of quoted post snipped>.....

[Blink34]

I apologise. <balance of quote snipped>.....

[SeriouslySearching]

Interesting blog: Footprints At The River's Edge (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/)I did notice I was mistaken earlier as there is a case that happened in July and another in June. I thought all of them happened during what I would consider to be during the school session.

[SeriouslySearching]

The smiley faces were discovered by the two Detectives and were not released until this week...so there could be no copy cats using this as a "signature".

With the one who survived, he did not know anything that happened after he left the bar. It is not clear in anything I read that he tested positive for drugs in his system. GHB does stay in the system only a short time, but I believe he would have still have tested positive.

The Detectives mentioned a "hierarchy" of this group so they are very organized. Gang initiation was mentioned in the killing of Chris Jenkins. The PI found that a beating took place across from where he was last seen and they found blood plus a red feather like Chris had worn with his costume in a parking garage nearby.

I didn't know that until today, but it would make sense these could be gang related. We do know they have a network across the country and tagging is a gang activity. I have been researching their tagging, but haven't found anything conclusive yet. Smileys are used by certain gangs in their "art" tho.

I thought maybe it could be an underground Fraternity with this being their initiation, too. They have chapters across the country as well.

What if there is a few different serial killers doing the killing and they are not in contact with one another? Maybe it could have been a copycat effect off the first cases. We all are aware of the "smiley" signature; a smiley face is common enough.. maybe one sicko got the idea from reading about it and then another sicko did. So they may not necessarily be aware of who the others killing are. (just throwing out some scenarios)
If the young men are given roofies or a date rape drug and it is slipped into their drink while they are still in the bar with their friends, then it may get to a point where they aren't going to remember who went near their beers. Young men that age, not feeling well, may not want to mention it aloud (pride) and attempt to walk home or walk away to get sick or figure out why they are feeling like they are (drug slipped into drink). We also can't rule out that it's possible it is a female killer(s) involved also and is helping to lure these young men or even doing the killings.
The "x" type mark that is on the forehead of the smiley face almost looks like a target as if one were to be executed shot in the forehead, etc. I know at some point in the 1990's they were making t-shirts of smileys with a dripping blood bullet wound there.
I guess what the best to figure out would be can it be certain exactly how many killers could be out there? So do we have one (or 2 if this is a couple scenario) working and moving around or different killers working separately.
They are obviously organized; in that they know to leave no evidence of who they are.

[adnoid]

I have deleted this post, which I now realise was wrong and irresponsible. Please everybody accept my apologies.

Proper use of irony demands a level of awareness on the part of the audience, without which it fails. It failed here. Let's not try it again.

[shadowraiths]

I did notice I was mistaken earlier as there is a case that happened in July and another in June. I thought all of them happened during what I would consider to be during the school session.
I thought so too, until I ran the charts. Sadly, there's so many, it's easy to miss.

[shadowraiths]

Decomposed Body Found In River
April 26, 2008

A decomposed body was found in the river near The Ohio State University campus Saturday afternoon.
Full article: click here (http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2008/04/26/story_body_found.html?sid=102)

[galvino]

OT- LittleDeer- I have a broken wrist too! Makes posting more fun.

Happy Healing!

[MeoW333]

The smiley face "tag" that the killer(s) has been leaving is far from a professional tag. Does anyone know if the one of "sinsiniwa" has been made public? Organized gangs of taggers have very intricate tags they do and these smiley tags would make them a laughing stock. They are simplistic in nature (the smiley ones). The killer(s) are leaving them quickly as their signature. This kind of tag is not consistent with the tags of known street gangs.
Also, we have to take into account with the possibility of more than one killer; the more of a risk the killers put themselves into and likelihood to be found out. Two killers working together is more likely than different gangs of them. In comparison to known gang killings who deal with guns and stabbings as a way to mark their turf or get other messages across; these killers are doing this for the sole reason of love of murdering. The problem with having different gangs or "pods" of these killers is that the more people involved in something, the more messy it gets and the higher the risk would be of making sure things are kept under control and silent. That is why i'm not so sure on this "different gang" theory. The killers are going to have to be able to blend into their environment where they are finding their victims. For them to look too out of place may arouse suspicion, and with them being so organized i'm sure they've taken this into account.
The possibility of a few different serial killers working fits; yet working together and communicating.. i'd think they'd want to keep what they do private so to not get caught.
The first victim was around 1997, the internet age was also rising in boom, so there became more of a way to contact others over the internet. Yet, unless these killers know each other personally, it's hard to believe they would share such heinous activities with each other.
If it is a sexual fetish of some sort, maybe they are grouping over the internet. It's just hard to believe if there are a lot of killers, how was secrecy kept so tight over the years between them?

[Trino]

Research the Crozet Kidnappers

[Blink34]

Could you locate a lnik for the actual article for the grave desecration and not just the blog?

[hockeymom]

Can anyone PM the contact info for either of the detectives- I couldnt find it and I have limited online access today. Thanks

I would like that info too. I wonder if they know about the case in Albany? If they don't,someone should notify them.

[hockeymom]

http://www.crimerant.com/?p=520

The above is another possable victim.

[shadowraiths]

I would like that info too. I wonder if they know about the case in Albany? If they don't,someone should notify them.
I'm guessing they do, since the report showed Joshua Szostak's picture, and from what I could tell, seemed to hint they would be covering his case on their Monday show. I could be wrong but that was my take.

[hockeymom]

I'm guessing they do, since the report showed Joshua Szostak's picture, and from what I could tell, seemed to hint they would be covering his case on their Monday show. I could be wrong but that was my take.

Thanks. I know an Albany cop and if I get a chance,I'm going to find out if he knows something that has not been made public.

[SuziQ]

http://www.crimerant.com/?p=520

The above is another possable victim.

Cool I like Crimerant. I can't get your link to work though.

Nevermind it worked on the third try. lol.

[Blink34]

I'm guessing they do, since the report showed Joshua Szostak's picture, and from what I could tell, seemed to hint they would be covering his case on their Monday show. I could be wrong but that was my take.

I believe based on Josh's dad's statement they are

[shadowraiths]

Has anyone had time to read the Minneapolis Police Department Case file (pdf (http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf)) the station has on their site. Reading it after hearing the detectives comments is interesting, to say the least. Here are some things that stood out for me:

Page 20
A witness claims to have seen Jenkins at a Tobacco shop @ 5th & Hennepin. They also claim to have witnessed him having an altercation w/Black males (of whom one was named, Mohamed)

Page 21
An off-duty officer (Casey) who is apparently working as a security guard and remembers seeing Jenkins, ends up giving a friend, Ashley Rice, a ride home. Ms. Rice was Jenkins' girlfriend.

ETA ~ Page 22
Another off-duty officer (Johnson) describes Jenkins as being "pretty drunk". Yet, Jenkins' BAC is only 0.09%.

Page 37
On February 6, 2003, Stephen Michael Shaughnessy, alleges he killed Jenkins & one other, but later denies it, stating he was "just joking." His roommate is Matthew John Onken.

Page 49
On December 3, 2002, someone (Barnes) claims to have seen Jenkins while he (the witness) was riding his bike across the Hennepin Ave Bridge.

Page 50
John Doe, who the report identifies as Richard Blake Lilly (aka the John Blake Lilly III, that I mentioned earlier). So now we have two of his six aliases! LOL

The above are just brief notes, and I have an opinion (of course!) but would be interested in what others think.

[shadowraiths]

http://www.crimerant.com/?p=520

The above is another possable victim.
I wasn't aware of that case.

Imho, very odd they would rule it suicide so fast. Esp considering where he was found. The bit about the red head is interesting as well...

[shadowraiths]

Completely forgot about this guy!

The Happy Face Killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Hunter_Jesperson)
Crime Library (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/jesperson/murder_1.html)

[PrayersForMaura]

Does anyone see a bit of a pattern to these killings??

I am wondering if the dates these young men went missing play any role in the killer's (or killers') plan?

Perhaps the dates have something to do with business trips? The murderer is seeing these young men around college campuses and bars. Could he be a traveling salesman? A trucker? A speaker at school events?

[crypto6]

Has anyone had time to read the Minneapolis Police Department Case file (pdf (http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf)) the station has on their site. Reading it after hearing the detectives comments is interesting, to say the least. Here are some things that stood out for me:

Page 20
A witness claims to have seen Jenkins at a Tobacco shop @ 5th & Hennepin. They also claim to have witnessed him having an altercation w/Black males (of whom one was named, Mohamed)

Page 21
An off-duty officer (Casey) who is apparently working as a security guard and remembers seeing Jenkins, ends up giving a friend, Ashley Rice, a ride home. Ms. Rice was Jenkins' girlfriend.

ETA ~ Page 22
Another off-duty officer (Johnson) describes Jenkins as being "pretty drunk". Yet, Jenkins' BAC is only 0.09%.

Page 37
On February 6, 2003, Stephen Michael Shaughnessy, alleges he killed Jenkins & one other, but later denies it, stating he was "just joking." His roommate is Matthew John Onken.

Page 49
On December 3, 2002, someone (Barnes) claims to have seen Jenkins while he (the witness) was riding his bike across the Hennepin Ave Bridge.

Page 50
John Doe, who the report identifies as Richard Blake Lilly (aka the John Blake Lilly III, that I mentioned earlier). So now we have two of his six aliases! LOL

The above are just brief notes, and I have an opinion (of course!) but would be interested in what others think.

The way the factoids were so jumbled it looked like LE didn't want to find a unifying theme other than drunk near water. A lot of paper was dedicated to outlining male-female relationships in detail, but little attention was paid to questions such as, exactly what time did the CI see Chris other than “after supper”?

I thought the dust-up around the Tobacco Shop would lead somewhere, but LE didn’t seem to pursue very hard. Several witnesses to that incident were not interviewed by MPD, only by FBI, whose reports were not corroborated. Other witnesses or informants seem to not have been brought in for questioning and their street interviews stood, even if the result was only that they didn’t want to talk to MPD at that time.

In short, nothing was pursued very vigorously before the discovery of the body and very little since if this is the complete record. Your take??

C6

[PrayersForMaura]

So young men may have been missing since 1997, linked to these cases.
Seems to be a serial killer like a BTK or Dahmer.

Doesn't seem like any of the victims from MI and WI have been missing in the months of
March
May
July
August
December


Dates men were reported missing, from http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421937.shtml?cat=63

1) Charles Blatz 28 yrs---------Missing-9/28/97 La Crosse, Wisc.
2) Anthony Skifton 19 yrs------Missing-10/10/97 La Crosse, Wisc.
3) Nathan Kapfer 20 yrs--------Missing-2/22/98 La Crosse, Wisc.


14 months pass

4) Jeffrey Geesey 21 yrs.-------Missing-4/11/99 La Crosse, Wisc.

24 months pass....

5) Ken Christiansen 19 yrs.------Missing-4/13/01 Duluth, Minn.
6) Christopher Nordby 27 yrs.---Missing-11/07/01 Minneapolis, Minn.

10 months pass

7) Craig Burrows 23 yrs.--------Missing-9/29/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.
8) Christopher Jenkins 21 yrs.---Missing-10/31/02 Minneapolis, Minn.
9) Michael Noll 22 yrs.----------Missing-11/06/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.
10) Joshua Guimond 20 yrs.------Missing-11/09/02 Collegeville, Minn.


2 months pass


11) Nathan Herr 21 yrs.----------Missing-01/10/03 Sheboygan, Wisc.
12) Jeremy Stienkeoway 24 yrs.--Missing-01/20/03 Hinckley, Minn.


15 months pass


13) Jared Dion 21 yr.--------------Missing--4/10/04 La Crosse, Wisc.

10 months pass


14) Scot Radel 21 yrs.------------Missing-02/02/05 St. Cloud, Minn.

15) Joshua Snell 22 yrs.-----------Missing-6/12/05 Eau Claire, Wisc.
16) Patrick Kycia 19 yrs.----------Missing-9/23/05 Moorhead, Minn.


3 months pass


17) Cullen Fortney 21 yrs.-------Missing 1/08/06 La Crosse, Wisc.
18) Kenji Ohnri 20 yrs.-----------Missing-01/28/06 Madison, Wisc.
19) Lucas Homan 21 yrs---------Missing-9/30/06 La Crosse, Wisc.

[PrayersForMaura]

My guess is we're looking for a white male
who's been doing this since the late 90s
May be mid 40s
Someone who has business in both WI and MI
Possibly trucker or cab driver

May even be a professor or student teacher.
Murders seems to be void during the time most students are off campus...
Spring Break, summer vacation and in between semesters for the Christmas/December break.

[PrayersForMaura]

Late September (last week),
early April (second week),
January and October seem most often target times

[PrayersForMaura]

If there are missing guys in Ohio, Chicago or other northern-central states that may fill in the gaps, we can plot a map out.
I wonder how many of those have the "smiley face"

This is looking to be more like a trucker, bus driver or traveling business person.

[crypto6]

The smiley faces were discovered by the two Detectives and were not released until this week...so there could be no copy cats using this as a "signature".

With the one who survived, he did not know anything that happened after he left the bar. It is not clear in anything I read that he tested positive for drugs in his system. GHB does stay in the system only a short time, but I believe he would have still have tested positive. ......



I found only alcohol listed as an intoxicant. Interestingly the highest value of 0.12 grams per 100 ml doesn’t correlate with the heavy intoxication reported as Chris left the bar. Was he alive long enough to process some of his alcohol before being killed? Was another drug used and Chris only seemed so intoxicated due to that rather than alcohol?

I’m off to research the possibility that alcohol undergoes significant post mortem metabolism as an alternative explanation.

C6

[SuziQ]

I've been pondering if there is no serial killer(s), what would cause young men to just up and leave the place they are at so fast they don't tell anyone and head towards the water? Then I recalled that ecstasy causes extreme thirst and overheating of the body. I've heard of people drinking so much water from this that they drown from water intoxication, but never that anyone imersed themselves in water. So I started searching around and found the below link. The two vics did also have cocaine in their system so I'm not sure if ecstasy would cause this effect on it's own. Then there is the question of what would show up in the autopsy. I thought it was interesting though. Could this be a case of a bad batch of pills, made intentionally that way or not?

http://www.boardsie.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9118

(snip)
The post-mortem on their bodies found that both men had died from drowning with cocaine and ecstasy contributing as a cause.
The state pathologist, Dr Marie Cassidy, who carried out the post-mortem examination, said that ecstasy can cause hype- thermal that heats up the body.
She said the young men may have decided to go into the water to cool down but due to the combination of cocaine and ecstasy, they did not realise the danger they were letting themselves in for

[SuziQ]

Regarding detection of GHB after death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

Determining conclusively whether someone's death was caused by GHB is very difficult because a lab test will always detect the presence of some GHB in the human body, and levels of GHB can vary in the same individual depending on what part of the body is tested. GHB is a naturally-occurring substance that is always present in everyone, but little research has been done on what levels are normal in what parts of the body at what times.

[shadowraiths]

Found the source regarding the young man who escaped "the riverman":

Friday, Jan. 13, 2006 E-mail gone wild in the Coulee Region
Here's my story from Saturday's Tribune about the river e-mail.
FW: THIS HAPPENED HERE THIS WEEKEND IN LA CROSSE!
By REID MAGNEY
La Crosse Tribune

“I am still a little numb. We almost lost Cullen early Sunday morning.”

That’s how it started, with a concerned mother’s e-mail to two close friends on Tuesday, in which she tells the twisted tale of her son’s escape from death in the Mississippi River the previous weekend.

At least one of those friends forwarded the e-mail to three other people, one of whom forwarded it to eight more.

It’s impossible to say how many people have seen the e-mail, but it was forwarded 11 times in 24 hours before it reached a La Crosse Tribune editor at midday Wednesday.

And who knows how many people have seen it since the story hit local media Wednesday afternoon.

[...]

Exactly what happened last Saturday night remains unclear. La Crosse police interviewed the family on Thursday and Friday, and issued a brief statement Friday:

“Through the assistance of Mr. Fortney, investigators have been able to determine that he did fall into the Mississippi River but did not go under water. Mr. Fortney was able to get himself out of the river on his own and walked to the hospital. The investigation has shown no indications of criminal activity involving this case.”
Full article: click here (http://www.rivervalleyblogs.com/archives/january2006.php) (scroll down)

[SeriouslySearching]

I find it odd that in other reports he says he doesn't remember anything. (I just read that email supposedly from his mother. Wow!)

[Blink34]

I found only alcohol listed as an intoxicant. Interestingly the highest value of 0.12 grams per 100 ml doesn’t correlate with the heavy intoxication reported as Chris left the bar. Was he alive long enough to process some of his alcohol before being killed? Was another drug used and Chris only seemed so intoxicated due to that rather than alcohol?

I’m off to research the possibility that alcohol undergoes significant post mortem metabolism as an alternative explanation.

C6
If it helps, we explored this in another case that was listed as a hypothermia death, it appears there is no further metab of alcohol in the blood to change BAC content at TOD..

[Blink34]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59547

I subscribed to this thread for whatever reason when it came out, perhaps this may be related to the other men. Posting this thread on that one, hopefully it gets "ported" to new forum. If anyone has updates please post.

[crypto6]

Regarding detection of GHB after death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

Determining conclusively whether someone's death was caused by GHB is very difficult because a lab test will always detect the presence of some GHB in the human body, and levels of GHB can vary in the same individual depending on what part of the body is tested. GHB is a naturally-occurring substance that is always present in everyone, but little research has been done on what levels are normal in what parts of the body at what times.Right. Looks like huge doses with tissue levels >180-200 micrograms per ml are not seen in natural postmortem states, but the range of "normal" is so scattered that lower values can be either intoxication or post mortem.



Fatalities have been associated with GHB use.[157, 222, 245-247] The DEA has collected investigative, toxicology, and autopsy reports from cases in which GHB was found in biological samples of the deceased. Since 1990, the DEA reports that they are aware of 68 deaths associated with the use of GHB, most of which have occurred in the last 4 years. Details of the cases are not given.[157] In an article discussing pre- and postmortem GHB blood and urine levels, the authors refer to four fatalities attributed to the use of GHB.[246] Three of the fatalities had postmortem blood GHB levels ranging from 52-121 mg/L. In a series of forensic samples submitted for laboratory analysis, blood GHB levels ranging from 3.2-168 mg/L were found in 15 of 20 autopsy specimens, although the deaths were not thought to be GHB related. Furthermore, GHB was not found in samples from living subjects who did not take GHB. Because of these findings, the authors suggest that GHB may be a natural product of postmortem decomposition occurring in blood.[246] Other investigators suggest that the magnitude of GHB levels found in many fatality cases is too significant to be attributed to postmortem decomposition.[247]
Link (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418321_3)

Grab bag of references (http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/References/GHB_All.htm)

FBI lab (http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/jan2002/hornfelt.htm)

[crypto6]

If it helps, we explored this in another case that was listed as a hypothermia death, it appears there is no further metab of alcohol in the blood to change BAC content at TOD..

Consistent with what I found. If anything, BAC increases post mortem.

C6

[SuziQ]

Shado, thank you for finding the info on Cullen.

We've discussed the possibility that the perp(s) could be truck drivers, cab drivers, traveling salesmen. How about the bands playing at the clubs and bars? Has LE taken a look to see if the same band is involved in any of these cases? To see if they were in the area at the time of the drownings?

[PrayersForMaura]

Shado, thank you for finding the info on Cullen.

We've discussed the possibility that the perp(s) could be truck drivers, cab drivers, traveling salesmen. How about the bands playing at the clubs and bars? Has LE taken a look to see if the same band is involved in any of these cases? To see if they were in the area at the time of the drownings?

Oh my gosh, my fiance asked the same question last night when I was telling him about this case.

[sunrise]

The band info is interesting. In Brian Shaffer case, the last his friends saw of him he left the table to talk to the band.

[DeltaDawn]

Could this be some sort of cult activity where they connect through the interent? I am reminded of the Son of Sam case where Berkowitz was arrested and charged. He is still in prison , but claims there were others involved. Infact , he doesn't want parole and doesn't want to name names due to fear for his family's safety. The case was reopened in 1996 and I beleive it is still open because lead detectives and the DA from the original case agreed that it was more then likely NOT just Berkowitz acting alone.

Which brings me to todays' techno savy revolution ..could there be a string of cults connected through internet activity that signal each other and carry out similiar crimes. The smiley face says to me that is their communication tool and their tool for taunting LE.

Also I think that some sort of drug is used to cause these vics to be controlled in the situation. I don't think anylonger that the torture was sexual in nature ..none of the vics that I could find info on were sexually assualted in anyway. So you were right on that part SS. But I am still thinking along the lines of a group or cult activity. Because to get these strong, active men into a cargo van would require atleast two people and a driver. Minimum of three people would have to be involved each time.

[SuziQ]

Not that what happened to my ex-bf has anything to do with these cases, but it goes to show how easily someone can be drugged. It happened about five years ago in Denver. I live in Utah and wasn't with him the night it happened. But he went for drinks with a couple that are long time friends of his. The place he went to was a regular hang out for them. Suddenly he did not feel well and excused himself to go to the bathroom. The next thing he knows it's the next morning and he's at home. He remembered nothing. His friends said he started raising cain near the bathrooms and they were all asked to leave by the bouncers. So they left and took him home. According to his friends he seemed a bit unstable but pissed. But not overly intoxicated. When he explained his amnesia, they all concluded something was slipped into one of his drinks. But for the life of them couldn't figure out how since their was always someone at their table and the drinks were not unatended and no one bought them drinks. The only thing they could figure is it would had to have happened behind the bar.

[SuziQ]

Also I think that some sort of drug is used to cause these vics to be controlled in the situation. I don't think anylonger that the torture was sexual in nature ..none of the vics that I could find info on were sexually assualted in anyway. So you were right on that part SS. But I am still thinking along the lines of a group or cult activity. Because to get these strong, active men into a cargo van would require atleast two people and a driver. Minimum of three people would have to be involved each time.

I'm leaning towards a drug being involved. Looking at Shado's chart listing the BAC. The guys were either too drunk to have been able to walk to a river or lake. Or they weren't drunk enough to fall in accidently if they did walk there. And a pattern I've noticed is the sudden walk off from their friends. They just up and leave with no explanation many times leaving their ride home behind.

[Salem]

I have not read all the way through the info on Chris - but nowhere did I see that water was found in the lungs. Has this been discussed? I thought when you died by drowning, there was water in the lungs. If no water, then it could be inferred that the person was dead prior to entering the water.

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Salem

[Salem]

Oh - I also wonder if this is a pharmactical (sp?) salesperson? Or someone with a medical background of some sort. What is the other drug that keeps you from remembering anything - sodium penathol? Is that something that can be slipped in a drink or is it only given intravenously?

Salem

[Salem]

So young men may have been missing since 1997, linked to these cases.
Seems to be a serial killer like a BTK or Dahmer.

Doesn't seem like any of the victims from MI and WI have been missing in the months of
March
May
July
August
December


Dates men were reported missing, from http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421937.shtml?cat=63

1) Charles Blatz 28 yrs---------Missing-9/28/97 La Crosse, Wisc.
2) Anthony Skifton 19 yrs------Missing-10/10/97 La Crosse, Wisc.
3) Nathan Kapfer 20 yrs--------Missing-2/22/98 La Crosse, Wisc.


14 months pass

4) Jeffrey Geesey 21 yrs.-------Missing-4/11/99 La Crosse, Wisc.

24 months pass....

5) Ken Christiansen 19 yrs.------Missing-4/13/01 Duluth, Minn.
6) Christopher Nordby 27 yrs.---Missing-11/07/01 Minneapolis, Minn.

10 months pass

7) Craig Burrows 23 yrs.--------Missing-9/29/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.
8) Christopher Jenkins 21 yrs.---Missing-10/31/02 Minneapolis, Minn.
9) Michael Noll 22 yrs.----------Missing-11/06/02 Eau Claire, Wisc.
10) Joshua Guimond 20 yrs.------Missing-11/09/02 Collegeville, Minn.


2 months pass


11) Nathan Herr 21 yrs.----------Missing-01/10/03 Sheboygan, Wisc.
12) Jeremy Stienkeoway 24 yrs.--Missing-01/20/03 Hinckley, Minn.


15 months pass


13) Jared Dion 21 yr.--------------Missing--4/10/04 La Crosse, Wisc.

10 months pass


14) Scot Radel 21 yrs.------------Missing-02/02/05 St. Cloud, Minn.

15) Joshua Snell 22 yrs.-----------Missing-6/12/05 Eau Claire, Wisc.
16) Patrick Kycia 19 yrs.----------Missing-9/23/05 Moorhead, Minn.


3 months pass


17) Cullen Fortney 21 yrs.-------Missing 1/08/06 La Crosse, Wisc.
18) Kenji Ohnri 20 yrs.-----------Missing-01/28/06 Madison, Wisc.
19) Lucas Homan 21 yrs---------Missing-9/30/06 La Crosse, Wisc.



Wow Prayers - Nice work. 19 young men here and it does not include the possibles outside the Minn/Wisc area. Very scary.

Salem

[SuziQ]

I have not read all the way through the info on Chris - but nowhere did I see that water was found in the lungs. Has this been discussed? I thought when you died by drowning, there was water in the lungs. If no water, then it could be inferred that the person was dead prior to entering the water.

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Salem

IIRC, very little water.

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

This article talks about many of the students and men on the list and some that we don't have threads for here yet. It is interesting reading.

[crypto6]

Wow Prayers - Nice work. 19 young men here and it does not include the possibles outside the Minn/Wisc area. Very scary.

Salem

If you haven't already, check out Shadowraith's work (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/). Nicely chronicled, lots of detail.

[SuziQ]

Woo Hoo! We have a forum!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

General Discussion thread #1
Continue Here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2168755#post2168755

[shadowraiths]

If you haven't already, check out Shadowraith's work (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/). Nicely chronicled, lots of detail.
Minor correction. "Footprints at the River's Edge (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/)" (while I agree is very nicely done) is not mine. But thank you for the compliment! :)

[crypto6]

Minor correction. "Footprints at the River's Edge (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/)" (while I agree is very nicely done) is not mine. But thank you for the compliment! :)

And I thought I was so careful to check that......

This is yours: River's Edge (Correct. Which I noted in my River's Edge (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/95/49/) article). I think....

C6

[Salem]

Thanks for the link Delta. Took me forever to read through it, but well worth the time.

They need to test the hair for drugs. They are not doing the tox reports right or something. There has to be a way to figure out what the drug is, because it appears that there is definitely a drug.

Would the GBH show up in the hair shafts at high concentrations? There has to be a way.

Salem

[Salem]

How do we make PrayerforMaura's post with the names and dates a sticky? It would be nice to keep that kind of stuff separate so we can refer to it quickly without going through pages of posts.

Crypto6 - I think I just got through "Footprints" I will go check out Shadow's work - thank you for the link. I was intriqued by Shadow's earlier comments at the beginning, when we first saw the links for the detectives.

Anyway - thank you and I'm going to look!

Salem

[SuziQ]

I've requested this thread be locked.

Please continue here, Thanks!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034

[crypto6]

Thanks for the link Delta. Took me forever to read through it, but well worth the time.

They need to test the hair for drugs. They are not doing the tox reports right or something. There has to be a way to figure out what the drug is, because it appears that there is definitely a drug.

Would the GBH show up in the hair shafts at high concentrations? There has to be a way.

Salem

Probably no go with the hair, since GBH is metabolized so fast it would be gone before it could be incorporated into the root, and its metabolites are substances normally found in the body. High tissue concentrations above 200 mg/liter seem indicative of GBH poisoning. Unfortunately, in most known GBH deaths, the concentration doesn't go that high, so there's a lot of overlap between poisoning and natural post-mortem processes for GBH. See post 138 this thread for more.

C6

[SieSie]

For those interested in the statistical side of things, I've uploaded the data, stat info, and a couple of graphs. They can be found here (http://crimsonshadows.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1000).

NB: The BAC percentages pertains to only those with reported BAC (to avoid an unnatural skew)
Interesting forum, thanks for the links and the stats and info. Great job! :blowkiss: