DETECTIVES: Chris Jenkins murder connects dozens around country

[Woofie]

I KNOW there was a thread on this somewhere-but I've searched and searched so I'm starting a new one. I guess I am forum challenged...


Could there be a calculated, cross-country plot to kill young college men, including some in Minnesota? It seems a little hard to believe, but two New York detectives say, they can prove it.

See the story at the link:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

[Taximom]

How interesting. Many, many years ago I was interested in these "accidental" deaths around college campuses and worked on a spreadsheet with a lot of information about all the suspicious cases. I gave it up because LE in different areas was insistent these were just drunk college boys falling into local rivers.

The family and friends of some of these boys have been fighting FOR YEARS for LE to take this seriously. I'm glad someone finally has. Hooray for these detectives!

Thanks for the info, Woofie.

[Taximom]

The video at that link gave me goosebumps. I had no idea those wonderful detectives have been doing this on their own time, and with their money. That's amazing.

OH my GOD. A "smiley face" left as a killer's trademark? I hope they catch this killer/gang of killers. God be with them.

[sunrise]

That was really interesting. I have felt that all these college men missing may be linked together. Brian Shaffer, Kyle Fleishman(sp?) and others we read and post about on this website.

God Bless those detectives and I am definitely going to read up on all those links this weekend.

[Salem]

Could this be what happened to Nick Garza in Vermont?

Taximom - if you still have your old spreadsheet, these detectives might be interested in seeing it. Even though it is not updated, you may have been tracking something that they have not and when seeing it, it may be helpful to them.

[aj1020]

Creepy! I've heard of this connection before, but I'm so glad these detectives have been doing the legwork to figure this out.

I think that Paul Shuman-Moore might be related to these cases. He disappeared from Grinnell, Iowa where he was a student at Grinnell College. His body was later discovered in a swimming pool. http://users.rcn.com/shumanmo/

Godspeed to these detectives and other LE to bring these victims justice!

[Taximom]

I've been wondering that myself, Salem. Most of the information was garnered off the internet news articles and the blogs about the cases (from the families). It's on my old pc which crashed a few years ago. My brother fixed it up (he says) but I have never hooked it back up.

I'll see what I can do, but like I said the info wasn't anything "new"... I was just trying to make sense of what had happened up to that point. I wish I hadn't stopped. :(

[Salem]

Taximom - even if the info is not new, you may have organized it in such a way or tracked some common element that will help them. Also, you may have additional names that they haven't come across yet. :clap: I think it must be so difficult to track these types of crimes. While stuff gets put into the crime databases, I am sure on many occasions that one little thing that would connect the dots gets left out.

Anyway - I will cross my fingers that you can call it up and email it to someone in the hopes that it will be helpful. I know how it goes when the computer crashes. I started a book once and never backed it up. Lost about 3 chapters - such good chapters they were too:rolleyes:

Salem

[DeltaDawn]

When you think of the number of 20 something men that have disappeared after last being seen at a bar it is mind boggling. Many of the cases we have on here may be related to this cross country ring. I just can't even begin to understand how people who would do this would also know other people through out the country..is this like a wierd cult thing ? I mean they say he was abducted and tortured then murdered. I noticed on the family sight they have listed the link for sex offenders..which makes me think this was also sexually motivated. This is just awful..I wish we knew more info about this ring and how they interconnect and operate.

[Taximom]

I was really surprised to hear it might be a ring or gang of killers. That is so bizarre to me. I remember thinking back in the day that it might be some crazed college professor. It sure will be interesting to see how this pans out. I'm proud of those families that kept the interest up all this time.

[annemc2]

Whoa. This sounds like something out of a book. Completely bizarre.

Will be interesting to see how this turns out.

[aj1020]

I KNEW Detective Gannon's name looked familiar, this was an article posted on Abel Bolanos' thread! It's from June of 2007 from Ames, Iowa. It gives a bit more background to the investigative work of these 2 detectives. It's a good read and says that the detectives have investigated more that 60 (!!) drowning deaths that are similar in nature.

http://www.midiowanews.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=18453015&BRD=2700&PAG=461&dept_id=554432&rfi=6

[aj1020]

another article on the detectives' work: http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/04/25/72166901

note that this story refers to the "full story" in Monday's edition, one of us needs to remember to go check for it. :)

[aj1020]

Sounds to me like Bolanos's death might be one of the "linked" cases... from the first article I posted, from June '07:http://www.midiowanews.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=18453015&BRD=2700&PAG=461&dept_id=554432&rfi=6

The "tags" must be the smiley faces. *shudder*


Throughout the entire process, I didn't ask the crew very many questions because, as I said, I have come to accept the fact that nothing at work will ever be "typical." But after they had been in the tunnel for another half an hour, I had to ask Gilbertson what they were doing.

According to Gilbertson, who also is an expert in gang activity, two unusual marks or "tags" have been found near the scene where a number of the drowning victims were found.

"Do you think they found it in the tunnel?" I asked.

"I don't think they would be in there this long if they didn't," Gilbertson said.

[SuziQ]

There is already a thread at the below link in the Crimes section. Actually there are various related threads all through WS that were created over the years. This really should be a in the crimes section as Chris' case is being investigated as a homicide. A request has been submitted to the mods to combine some of the threads.

Woofie, since your started this thread can you send a request to the mods to combine this one as well so we can keep track of all the valueable info that's being posted? TIA.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63890

[DeltaDawn]

AJ thank you for those links to the srticles. This is a very interesting and compelling case (s).

[SuziQ]

There are three threads going now. I've sent a request to the mods for a merger or forum since some of the vics are missing, missing and found and one ruled a homicide.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63890

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63931

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43709

[aj1020]

Thanks for staying on top of it SQ! Merged threads are always so fun to sort through, but having one place to reference will be great!

[SuziQ]

Thanks for staying on top of it SQ! Merged threads are always so fun to sort through, but having one place to reference will be great!

There is so much good info out there sleuthers have dug up. I'll keep my fingers crossed for a forum.

[SeriouslySearching]

However, on that fourth one, Suzi...since this one also deals with the women missing/murdered in WI...I think I will just copy the information over to the new thread that we compiled on the men here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51672

[SeriouslySearching]

Instead of a merge...maybe we should beg for a forum! LOL I see Suzi beat me to that request. :) (Did you ask for a forum instead of a merge from the Mods?!)

[aj1020]

Ooo, a forum would be even better! All crossables crossed!

[SuziQ]

However, on that fourth one, Suzi...since this one also deals with the women missing/murdered in WI...I think I will just copy the information over to the new thread that we compiled on the men here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51672

I didn't notice that, sorry!

[newshound81]

How interesting. Many, many years ago I was interested in these "accidental" deaths around college campuses and worked on a spreadsheet with a lot of information about all the suspicious cases. I gave it up because LE in different areas was insistent these were just drunk college boys falling into local rivers.

The family and friends of some of these boys have been fighting FOR YEARS for LE to take this seriously. I'm glad someone finally has. Hooray for these detectives!

Thanks for the info, Woofie.
Seriously, I could see a few "accidental" drownings here and there, but how could so many people just "stumble" into water? Unless all of these men were completely wasted or drugged, I just don't see that logically happening. They're all not just going to veer off the path or get lost on the way back to their college/apartment.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am so excited about this today. I wish Cheko would get on here! This is HUGE!!!!

[SeriouslySearching]

I will have to go back and find the article, but somewhere they actually put a fence up to stop the "drunk boys" from "falling into the river"! GRRRR!

[aj1020]

i know, me too :)

eta: that is, I'm excited about this, and I wish we could combine the threads into a forum so I can organize this all in my mind. ;)

[SuziQ]

However, on that fourth one, Suzi...since this one also deals with the women missing/murdered in WI...I think I will just copy the information over to the new thread that we compiled on the men here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51672

Thanks for the heads up. I removed the link from my list.

[SuziQ]

Instead of a merge...maybe we should beg for a forum! LOL I see Suzi beat me to that request. :) (Did you ask for a forum instead of a merge from the Mods?!)

I asked for a merge but suggested that a forum might be better because of how many vics there are and their different statuses. Each thread is slightly different but at the same time the same. An umbrella under a forum would be better IMO.

We do need everyone to start begging for a forum. lol.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, Suzi! Aj...if there are dozens and dozens as the Detectives have mentioned...it will require a forum to get them straight. Hopefully, this will happen soon. I can't imagine not having one and trying to get all this sorted out. We have so many threads within threads as it is now.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK Back to the actual cases: The mention of the cargo van caught my attention. Wasn't this mentioned in another case of a missing person on the East Coast? Something about a fake taxi?

[aj1020]

Yes, I meant a forum...to combine the threads. Sorry, I misspoke. :)

[aj1020]

I was thinking of the van too - I remember a van possibly being used to pick up Kyle Fleishman, but I also think that MAY have come from the psychic and thus wouldn't be entirely factual.

[SuziQ]

Thanks, Suzi! Aj...if there are dozens and dozens as the Detectives have mentioned...it will require a forum to get them straight. Hopefully, this will happen soon. I can't imagine not having one and trying to get all this sorted out. We have so many threads within threads as it is now.

And alot of the men don't have a thread here and they are deserving of one.

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, we will add those to the forum when we get one. (See how optimistic I am?! LOL)

[SeriouslySearching]

I find the smiley faces very interesting, too. I think this has to do with the internet. Maybe it is some twisted game that some people have developed and taken to extremes?

[SuziQ]

OK Back to the actual cases: The mention of the cargo van caught my attention. Wasn't this mentioned in another case of a missing person on the East Coast? Something about a fake taxi?

The mention of a van and Chris' mom saying he was driven around and tortured before being murdered caught me off guard. She obviously has info we haven't heard of yet. IIRC, his body didn't show any signs of trauma. I wonder what type of torture she is talking about? Mental?

[SuziQ]

I find the smiley faces very interesting, too. Do you think this has to do with the internet? Maybe it is some twisted game that some people have developed and taken to extremes?

Now Fran has in one of the other threads came up with two possibilities for the smiley. One is ecstasy tabs with smiley faces on them. Which is interesting since drugging could be a factor here. Then there is a link to a sinister comic book series about a psychopathic serial killer.

[aj1020]

I can't find a mention of a van in the Kyle Fleischmann thread, but I swear I remember reading that on someone's thread. It was around the time that the Hilton thing was going on, because we were thinking there might be a connection to whatever case it was. I also checked Justin Gaines and didn't see anything. Grrr.

[SuziQ]

I can't find a mention of a van in the Kyle Fleischmann thread, but I swear I remember reading that on someone's thread. It was around the time that the Hilton thing was going on, because we were thinking there might be a connection to whatever case it was. I also checked Justin Gaines and didn't see anything. Grrr.

I can back you up on that. I remember that too. It's talked about in the Hilton thread somewhere.

[aj1020]

I can back you up on that. I remember that too. It's talked about in the Hilton thread somewhere.

Thanks, I don't feel totally nutso. :)

I don't know what other "big" cases would have been in the forefront back in January. Hmmm, this is going to frustrate me now.

[SeriouslySearching]

It was discussed on the Hilton thread, but it was mentioned on an older case so it wouldn't be Jan.

[MCDRAW]

I hope other LE and the F.B.I. look into this. I hope they don't try to say these two detectives are crazy. Because I think they are on target. From the time I read about this, I have thought there was a serial killer. I wonder if Justin Gaines and Kyle Fleischman were targets too.

[MCDRAW]

I will have to go back and find the article, but somewhere they actually put a fence up to stop the "drunk boys" from "falling into the river"! GRRRR!


I remember reading that article.

[SeriouslySearching]

It made me so angry at the time, Mcdraw! I thought it was so ridiculous to think all these boys got drunk and simply stumbled into a river in the dead of winter. We have a river very near our busiest bar district and have only lost one young man due to him deciding to "raft" on an innertube while the water was high after a party as his house. It never made sense to me that drunk people would actually walk into a river!

[Taximom]

The mention of a van and Chris' mom saying he was driven around and tortured before being murdered caught me off guard. She obviously has info we haven't heard of yet. IIRC, his body didn't show any signs of trauma. I wonder what type of torture she is talking about? Mental?

That caught me off guard too, SQ. When I was studying these cases, I don't recall seeing anything about signs of torture on their bodies. I don't remember though if the bodies were too bloated etc to tell though either. Maybe that's just something they kept from the public, but then again, these were ruled accidents in most cases... :confused:

[MCDRAW]

The mention of a van and Chris' mom saying he was driven around and tortured before being murdered caught me off guard. She obviously has info we haven't heard of yet. IIRC, his body didn't show any signs of trauma. I wonder what type of torture she is talking about? Mental?


I wonder if they really looked for any signs of trauma.

[SeriouslySearching]

Maybe they assumed incorrectly the men had bruising or cuts due to either being drunk/stumbling into things or the intial fall into the river or lacerations from being bumped into various things while in the water.

[MCDRAW]

It made me so angry at the time, Mcdraw! I thought it was so ridiculous to think all these boys got drunk and simply stumbled into a river in the dead of winter. We have a river very near our busiest bar district and have only lost one young man due to him deciding to "raft" on an innertube while the water was high after a party as his house. It never made sense to me that drunk people would actually walk into a river!


I just can't see that drunks would walk into water either and that they would drown. You may have one every now and then. But there are just too many "drunks" accidentally drowning and they are all around the same age. I also wonder if these killers go into a bar and pick their target. Then maybe slip the GHB drug in their drink then follow them out. Maybe they watch to see who ends up alone? I hope other agencies start to investigate too.

[MCDRAW]

SS, that is what I think happened. I think they assumed it was an accident. Saw the cuts, bruises, etc. and just asssumed it was from the "accident". And just didn't investigate any further.

[SeriouslySearching]

My thought was they did wait for them outside and "lead" them to the water where they were drowned on purpose. According to various reports, the men were drinking excessively tho so I don't think GHB was neccessary.

[annemc2]

I was wondering if part of the torture involved forcing the young men to drink large quantities of alcohol.

Apparently some of the guys had BALs high enough that they should have been comatose.

[SeriouslySearching]

I reasoned that whoever was doing this wanted their vics to be very drunk and unable to fight back effectively. I don't know if drinking more alcohol would have to be forced on a drunk person, but I guess it is possible.

[SeriouslySearching]

Here is an interesting website I ran across: http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

[SuziQ]

I think the fact they were inebriated only made it easier to slip something in their drinks. I think a drug would have been used to make sure the vics couldn't fight back and if they survived, they wouldn't remember much.

I know LE and civic leaders have been quick to point out that young college men drink way too much and that drunks do stupid things. But what about other populations of drinkers? Homeless drunks comes to mind. I would expect to see more of them than anyone else in the rivers. And college women are catching up to men in their behaviors. So why aren't we hearing about dozens of homeless men and young college women found dead in the rivers? I can understand not reporting on homeless deaths. The media rarely does. But young college women would have been.

[DeltaDawn]

Now Fran has in one of the other threads came up with two possibilities for the smiley. One is ecstasy tabs with smiley faces on them. Which is interesting since drugging could be a factor here. Then there is a link to a sinister comic book series about a psychopathic serial killer.

Just have to add this ..in Stephen Kings trilogy about THE STAND..his main evil character had as a teen left home..was a male and was raped..after that he felt he could never return to his old life/self. Guess what button he always wore on his lapels..a smiley face button. I noticed if you go to the Chris Jenkins rememberance site they have a link for people to click on to go to sexual predators link..could these crimes be committed by males who are in a sexual predator ring focusing on 20 something guys?

Since his mom knows he was driven around in a van for five or more hours and tortured before he was murdered and dumped in the water..could this be a wierd porno ring that videos sexual torture to males? Farfetched I know..but when I watched that video and read the other articles ..it made me go hmm......

[SeriouslySearching]

I posted this on the other thread, but I think it is important to remember what kind of "gang" or group they consider are doing this:

As far as who this "gang" of people are that the Detectives reason to have done this...my initial theory would be it is connected to a college underground group perhaps associated to a fraternity or an internet group. As they are finding them to be connected in different states, it would suggest they definitely have a common goal or motive. They have to be in contact. Like they mentioned, there is even a Hierarchy involved.

[DeltaDawn]

I posted this on the other thread, but I think it is important to remember what kind of "gang" or group they consider are doing this:

As far as who this "gang" of people are that the Detectives reason to have done this...my initial theory would be it is connected to a college underground group perhaps associated to a fraternity or an internet group. As they are finding them to be connected in different states, it would suggest they definitely have a common goal or motive. They have to be in contact. Like they mentioned, there is even a Hierarchy involved.

Absolutely agree SS.. I am still thinking that they have a conection to the Smiley Face through Stephen Kings Trilogy and that represents something to them.

[SeriouslySearching]

I have been online researching any connection to the smiley face and groups. (Also looking at tattoos, symbols, and games.)

I looked it up and read through the characters and story line on wiki. I don't see it. Sorry.

Nothing I read would make a connection to murdering drunk college age males. It must have a significance to them which is a sign to other members as they did not expect the detectives to ever make the connection. Because they are leaving it as a sign of their deeds...who is looking? Are they taking photos and posting them somewhere of just the signs? They are meant for the rest of the group to see...so how are they "seeing" it if they are in other areas of the country? My guess would be the internet.

[Salem]

Wow - it has been years since The Stand was first published. I'm trying to think. I have the book here somewhere, let me find it.

Salem

[Salem]

OK Back to the actual cases: The mention of the cargo van caught my attention. Wasn't this mentioned in another case of a missing person on the East Coast? Something about a fake taxi?

I'm not sure I remember exactly, but weren't there some pictures of two kids (a boy and a girl) tied up in a white van several years back? It was thought the kids were some missing children but the van and the kids were never found.

And didn't the guy that murdered the young lady early this year at the state park drive a white van? I'm sorry I can't remember the names right now, I didn't follow the cases closely.

What exactly is a cargo van?

Salem

[DeltaDawn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Flagg

You can read about the background of Stephen King's arch villian in his trilogy here.

[Salem]

Delta Dawn beat me to it :) but here is another link. First published in 1978.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stand

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, but what would be the connection to the young men being drowned?

[RR0004]

The numbers of kids missing/drowned in Wisconisn alone should have alerted LE to some sort of serial killer. Why did it take NY detectives to piece this together? This is especially troubling to me as my daughter goes to school out there. There's a lot of strange things happening in her college town...but it seems that LE are a bit clueless. They've been unable to solve the 3 murders of young people that have occurred there in a year.

[SeriouslySearching]

Even the FBI looked at it and said they were accidents. They simply didn't investigate it well enough and chalked them up. It has bothered me for such a long time. I am so glad these Detectives and the Professor have all taken it upon themselves to do their jobs.

[SuziQ]

Even the FBI looked at it and said they were accidents. They simply didn't investigate it well enough and chalked them up. It has bothered me for such a long time. I am so glad these Detectives and the Professor have all taken it upon themselves to do their jobs.

Same here. In one of the vids that were released last night, a reporter explained that the FBI merely looked at the case files that local LE provided to them. And we know the case file for Chris was wrong. So others probably are as well.

[DeltaDawn]

Well these murders are not only disturbing but inter related. It is sad that no one previous to the NY detectives were looking for clues. The smiley faces are definitely a signature of some type..which is very rare in serial crimes. Killers may use the same means and access to kill , but rarely leave the same signature over and over. I am not talking about MO , but a signature. The ones that do are not only taunting LE , but if they are part of a crime ring leaving a message to other members.

I think we may be looking at a group of men who were raped as teens, and as adults have become part of an internet porn ring that deals with rape and torture of other men.
Then they dispose of the bodies in the easist access possible at their location. At the same time throwing off LE by leaving personal objects of the vic in another spot.

[SuziQ]

The part 2 video isn't linked to the article yet. But at the front page of this site it's on the right under What are authorites doing about the Jenkins murder investigation. Click on next to find the video. On Monday there will be a report on the Albany NY case Shado listed.

http://www.kstp.com/

Joshua Szostak
http://www.pressrepublican.com/homepage/local_story_114214512.html?keyword=topstory

[DeltaDawn]

Thanks SuziQ.. I will be interested to see what info that unvails for us.

[SeriouslySearching]

Well these murders are not only disturbing but inter related. It is sad that no one previous to the NY detectives were looking for clues. The smiley faces are definitely a signature of some type..which is very rare in serial crimes. Killers may use the same means and access to kill , but rarely leave the same signature over and over. I am not talking about MO , but a signature. The ones that do are not only taunting LE , but if they are part of a crime ring leaving a message to other members.

I think we may be looking at a group of men who were raped as teens, and as adults have become part of an internet porn ring that deals with rape and torture of other men.
Then they dispose of the bodies in the easist access possible at their location. At the same time throwing off LE by leaving personal objects of the vic in another spot.I don't disagree with you often, but here I find a need to. You are going into something that surely does not relate here.

[Taximom]

I'm still frankly surprised to hear this might be a "gang" although I know they are probably using that term lightly. Or maybe not.

Nothing would surprise me anymore. It could be like DeltaDawn says and maybe they share videos of what went down.

Like I said, I'm still bamboozled. I really thought this was the work of one person, moving from campus to campus finding their next victim.

[DeltaDawn]

I don't disagree with you often, but here I find a need to. You are going into something that surely does not relate here.


Which part SS, the porn ring of men raped as teens or the signature part? I am always open to other opinions. And I do value yours.

[RR0004]

It makes me wonder if the "signatures" have been overlooked in other locations because they thought it was a done deal COD-drowning. Period.
I definitely think that those responsible have something against those that have the priviledge of being able to attend college. It's almost as if they're taunting their "smarts" in carrying out these horrific crimes.

[DeltaDawn]

It makes me wonder if the "signatures" have been overlooked in other locations because they thought it was a done deal COD-drowning. Period.
I definitely think that those responsible have something against those that have the priviledge of being able to attend college. It's almost as if they're taunting their "smarts" in carrying out these horrific crimes.

That could very well be true. I can't wait to see the rest of the video about this.

[SeriouslySearching]

You asked and this was it: I think we may be looking at a group of men who were raped as teens, and as adults have become part of an internet porn ring that deals with rape and torture of other men.
Then they dispose of the bodies in the easist access possible at their location. At the same time throwing off LE by leaving personal objects of the vic in another spot.

I have to disagree.

[DeltaDawn]

Okay, thanks for replying SS.

I think whatever/whoever these people are they are leaving that smiley face not only as a clue to detectives but to each other. Is there a gang or frat that uses the smiley face as part of their sig? Have a happy day..wasn't that the slogan that went along with the smiley face? Are they using the smiley face to taunt LE?

[DeltaDawn]

Kristi is goingto be on GMA Monday morning along with the detectives. After that appearance they will be holding a press conference.

The second part of the video she discusses that the station has been swamped with emails and phone calls from people who think they may know of other cases and vics that the detectives need to look into. I doubt we will hear any personal response to the email I sent requesting a way to contact the detectives.

http://www.kstp.com/

[shadowraiths]

As of yesterday,

50% of the missing/drowned young men were college students
42% had been reported to have been drinking and/or inebriated
72% were from the midwest (by midwest, I'm speaking of the western great lakes region)

So, contrary to what our usual sensationalistic media has to say, the missing/drowned young men were most certainly not ALL college students. And, contrary to what LE claims, these cases do not appear to be PURELY alcohol related. If anything, the most striking thing about them is that 72% are situated in the midwest with a concentration in the La Cross & Eau Claire Wisconsin areas.

That said, after watching the second vid, I'm less inclined to think these two detectives are onto... well... anything. For a number of reasons, the least of which involves the statement by LE spokesperson, "Bring us evidence, not more theories." The other thing that raises questions to my mind wrt this latest theory is that they seem to be sweeping all of the missing/drowned cases into one grand conspiracy. Which, imho, makes it less viable.

Furthermore, while I was admittedly growing skeptical after finally finding time to listen to the first interview (where they referred to these alleged disparate groups as "pods"), what clenched it for me is the ludicrous "Smiley Face Killer" moniker that the talking heads dreamed up last night. This indicates to me these detectives have nothing more than a bunch of smiley faces that were found where these boys "allegedly" went into the water.

Yet, if you read the Jenkins case, the cost for determining where he went into the water was $100K. So, are these detectives saying they've spent half a billion dollars to determine where all 60 boys entered the water? Doubtful. Unfortunately, from where I sit, this appears to be a case of confirmatory bias at its finest.

And finally, as far as whether or not there's a serial killer (or killers) preying on young men in the midwest? I think that is possible. I am however very doubtful this is a case of some nation-wide smiley face killer gang.

Btw, and as an aside, for the person who wondered, the slogan that went along with the smiley was "Have a nice day" and Stephen King's "Stand" was about an apocalyptic "final battle" between good and evil, that was brought on by the release of a genetically engineered fast-spreading virus.

[SuziQ]

I think the more appropriate catagorization by the media should merely be the age range, the suspicious nature under which they disappeared and where they were found. The college connection shouldn't be the only connection. IMO, that would wrongly include cases that aren't related and exclude some that could be. Sometimes men do get drunk and sometimes accidentally drown or commit suicide. So not all of the cases will be found to be related. I think there's more likely to be a single serial killer or two working together than a gang. I think we may find that most of the cases outside the upper great lakes region are not related to The River Killers. I'm struggling with the gang theory myself.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am not struggling with it. I think they have sufficient evidence to back up their statements. They only had to spend that kind of money in the Jenkins case and could simply go back to find the smiley faces in the other cases...which they did. One Detective said he mortaged his home. He wouldn't have done that if he wasn't certain he was on the right track. They also have names to go along with that theory. When it all comes out...I think you will see they did their job well.

Of course, it is farfetched. I don't see many serial killer stories that aren't. Look at Hilton. Look at Bundy. Look at BTK. I bet when those theories were coming to light...they sounded pretty farfetched, too. It took them what...30 years to solve BTK crimes?

[Blink34]

Kristi is goingto be on GMA Monday morning along with the detectives. After that appearance they will be holding a press conference.

The second part of the video she discusses that the station has been swamped with emails and phone calls from people who think they may know of other cases and vics that the detectives need to look into. I doubt we will hear any personal response to the email I sent requesting a way to contact the detectives.

http://www.kstp.com/

I appreciate the effort anyway, thanks DD.

[SeriouslySearching]

It doesn't surprise me that LE doesn't want to follow up. They did, however, state publically they made a mistake in their investigation. It is a shame they are balking at this. It goes to egos and it is wrong.

It is quite telling that Chris pulled out his own hair, imo. Also, I think they are exactly right that with his shirt still tucked in and his slip-on plus oversized boots on that he did not go over the bridge. His head being turned is also evidence. With the ME's office changing it to a Homicide, I don't see how LE is not interested in what these men have uncovered. I think it is absolutely an ego problem with them.

Wow~ 40 cases!

[Blink34]

It doesn't surprise me that LE doesn't want to follow up. They did, however, state publically they made a mistake in their investigation. It is a shame they are balking at this. It goes to egos and it is wrong.

It is quite telling that Chris pulled out his own hair, imo. Also, I think they are exactly right that with his shirt still tucked in and his slip-on plus oversized boots on that he did not go over the bridge. His head being turned is also evidence. With the ME's office changing it to a Homicide, I don't see how LE is not interested in what these men have uncovered. I think it is absolutely an ego problem with them.

Wow~ 40 cases!

I suspect that might grow by at least 2 or 3 before weeks end, unfortunately. I hope this forum on this issue is available soon, I truly believe there is good WS info on them. At my count, I think there have been 3 new bodies found in missing cases in about a week

[crypto6]

As of yesterday,

50% of the missing/drowned young men were college students
42% had been reported to have been drinking and/or inebriated
72% were from the midwest (by midwest, I'm speaking of the western great lakes region)

So, contrary to what our usual sensationalistic media has to say, the missing/drowned young men were most certainly not ALL college students. And, contrary to what LE claims, these cases do not appear to be PURELY alcohol related. If anything, the most striking thing about them is that 72% are situated in the midwest with a concentration in the La Cross & Eau Claire Wisconsin areas.

That said, after watching the second vid, I'm less inclined to think these two detectives are onto... well... anything. For a number of reasons, the least of which involves the statement by LE spokesperson, "Bring us evidence, not more theories." The other thing that raises questions to my mind wrt this latest theory is that they seem to be sweeping all of the missing/drowned cases into one grand conspiracy. Which, imho, makes it less viable.

Furthermore, while I was admittedly growing skeptical after finally finding time to listen to the first interview (where they referred to these alleged disparate groups as "pods"), what clenched it for me is the ludicrous "Smiley Face Killer" moniker that the talking heads dreamed up last night. This indicates to me these detectives have nothing more than a bunch of smiley faces that were found where these boys "allegedly" went into the water.

Yet, if you read the Jenkins case, the cost for determining where he went into the water was $100K. So, are these detectives saying they've spent half a billion dollars to determine where all 60 boys entered the water? Doubtful. Unfortunately, from where I sit, this appears to be a case of confirmatory bias at its finest.

And finally, as far as whether or not there's a serial killer (or killers) preying on young men in the midwest? I think that is possible. I am however very doubtful this is a case of some nation-wide smiley face killer gang.

Btw, and as an aside, for the person who wondered, the slogan that went along with the smiley was "Have a nice day" and Stephen King's "Stand" was about an apocalyptic "final battle" between good and evil, that was brought on by the release of a genetically engineered fast-spreading virus.

Shadow:
They didn't do the 100K model; they reenacted with a mannequin and used tennis balls to study flow characteristics. It’s about 1/3 of the way down on the second page here (http://kstp.com/kstpImages/Jenkinsreenactment.pdf).

“Gang" was an unfortunate word to use in this context and implies ongoing, organized activity with a discoverable leadership hierarchy. The interesting question to me is where the smiley face leads us. If we accept that these killings are too similar to be unrelated, is this the work of one person, one with copycat(s), or a collection of people tied together somehow. And is the smiley involved at all?

If this is a copycat, how did he discover the smiley and tie it to the original? If it is a group, how/when/where/why? The implications are tremendous.

BTW, nice deconstruction of the "gang"theory.

C6

[Opie]

Hesitate to bring this up, as the person to whom I'm referring has been banned from here several times. Dare I use her name? Loretta with her misfits blog (which I used to read until I was made to feel very unwelcome there) some years back suggested there was a connection between at least some of these deaths. Perhaps she was on the right track after all. There were just too many in reasonable proximity to be total coincidence.

Really hope those detectives can help put an end to these terrible murders.

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

Dr. Lee Gilbertson, a St. Cloud State professor who specializes in the computer mapping of crime, has uncovered at least four startling coincidences among many of the missing/drowned victims:

Victims tend to vanish between Thursday 10:00 PM and Sunday 4:00 PM, during the first half of the month.
76% of the specific disappearances investigated, occured when "there's less than half of moon illumination."
The victims were attending college within 50 miles of I-94 between Moorehead and East Lansing. "Why is it so tight along that snake -- along I-94? It should be spread out."
The timeline of the drownings move in a consistent pattern. "East, west, east, west, east, west, north, south -- east, west, east, west, east, west, north, south. Now we start to see patterns that can't be explained."
"Now we can clearly say, it's definitely time to act."
-- Gilbertson




The link above talks about many of the men we are thinking of adding to the forum. Also a couple that don't have threads here. It was interesting reading.

[SuziQ]

I've requested this thread be locked.

Please continue here, thanks!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034