Should Texas have Raided FLDS?

[golfmom]

Time to vote!

[poco]

I would like to now your reasons for this poll. I undoubtedly agree with what they did, but either you don't or you have heard from other people who have disagreed - liked to know your thoughts!

[Truly]

lol, poco, I am sure that the three people who vote for door number one will be posting their reasons shortly. I think CPS have done what they are required to do by law- protect children from abusive adults.

Golfmom posted the poll because she mentioned in the CPS thread that this would be a great poll, and Floh said go for it!

[Floh]

lol, poco, I am sure that the three people who vote for door number one will be posting their reasons shortly. I think CPS have done what they are required to do by law- protect children from abusive adults.

Golfmom posted the poll because she mentioned in the CPS thread that this would be a great poll, and Floh said go for it!

Here is that thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64025

[Vegas Bride]

My hat is off to Texas for what I believe is doing the right thing.
IMO it will take a long time for the truth to come out about just what has happened behind the walls there. There are certain laws in our country that need to be followed, child abuse, mollestation and incest are good laws I believe and I don't care who you are or what religion you are, if you're breaking these laws or allowing your children to be victimised then you should not have control of your children.
I have to wonder, why has it taken so long, I really feel other states dropped the ball. If they had wanted to stop this years ago then this mess in Tx could have been avoided, way to many people in power just looking the other way and not willing to step up to do the right thing.


VB

[mollymalone]

Vegas, I think the reason the other states haven't done much about it was due to the polygamy issue. There were a great many descended from polygamist familes and it's a hot potato issue, that's the baggage they're carrying. Texas doesn't have that as a problem. Although the other two states have made some small headway in prosecuting for other crimes unrelated to the polygamy issue, the problem grew and grew until it spilled out onto their neighbor Texas. Now Texas is taking the lead and hopefully the other two will review and revamp their methods of dealing with the widespread, systemic abuse. The raid and the issues raised about abuse of women and children is prompting Canada to review their stance as well.

[KatK]

I'm torn. In a way, I think they did the right thing. Those girls were being abused, and the boys were being raised in a manner that wouldn't let them fit into the modern world very well if they should choose to leave their parent's religion. But, legally I don't know if they had a right to do it. I think they acted in good faith initially. But I am also disturbed to think that the camel is getting its nose into the tent of religion. This bears watching, they are going for the FLDS, who/what will they go for next, is what I wonder.

[Taximom]

Better safe than sorry, so I think TX is doing the right thing.

I really could care less about polygamists as long as it doesn't involve minors.

[Leila]

I feel Texas did the right thing in going into the YFZ ranch and subsequently removing the children.

This has been a very difficult task for all the agencies involved, due to the sheer numbers of children removed, and they've handled the task with care and concern, doing as much as possible to lessen the impact on the children.

I feel it will be sometime down the road before we learn the extent of abuse that was going on at the YFZ ranch.

[mollymalone]

I feel Texas did the right thing in going into the YFZ ranch and subsequently removing the children.

This has been a very difficult task for all the agencies involved, due to the sheer numbers of children removed, and they've handled the task with care and concern, doing as much as possible to lessen the impact on the children.

I feel it will be sometime down the road before we learn the extent of abuse that was going on at the YFZ ranch.I agree. There's several generations of people who've left and all of them, whether they're 13 or 30 or older, they all have reported incest, molestation and other physical and mental abuse. It's awful hard to dismiss it out of hand. I too think that CPS has shown it can step up to the plate and handle a difficult situation.

[golfmom]

I would like to now your reasons for this poll. I undoubtedly agree with what they did, but either you don't or you have heard from other people who have disagreed - liked to know your thoughts!

Poco, as Floh explained it was a conversation within a thread. There's been quite a bit of dispute over the actions Texas took and I thought it'd be interesting to see how our members feel. :blowkiss:

[lorann]

I believe Texas did the right thing. I have not posted on this because although I have read for hours and hours, I am sure I have missed many posts. Since I have missed many many posts, my bringing this is may have been discussed before. I remember either 60 minutes or Dateline, a long time ago, discussed the purchase of the property initially. It was supposed to be for hunting but it was already clear that the buyers were involved with the
FLDS. There have been women who has escaped, boys who have been turned out, for years. Had some intervention been done, many of these molestations, many of these babies taken from their mothers given away to who knows who or where, years of abuse, money added to the coffers of this horrible cult, much could have been avoided. Before they get the control they have gained in government in their other cities, why wasn't something done sooner? With the mateial seized, perhaps some real records were kept of what mother had which child. Do the children even know their real birthdates? The very young have a chance, the older children may not.

[txsvicki]

Heck yes they did the right thing. Pedophiles breeding children for their own use is illegal. Young girls being pregnant by ugly old geezers is proof enough that there is abuse. I think the government should totally outlaw some bunch setting up compounds and having lots of different families living there.

[Pepper]

Yes, and I'm just sorry it took so long. Now if only AZ and UT would grow some and step up to the plate......................:mad:

[Reader]

Yes, I think Texas CPS and LE did the right thing and the situation has been handled as well as it could given the lack of cooperation from the "parents".

[Floh]

So far 91.07% of voters here think Texas CPS did the right thing.

this is of course subject to change.

[Pepper]

I think the high yes vote is due to the great detective work of everyone active on this forum. Unfortunately I don't think the vote would be this positive if put before the general public and those who have not followed all the articles and read the research.

I heard some bald idiot lawyer type on Fox this morning screaming about the violation of rights in taking away the children. "No proof" was his mantra. Obviously he is not well versed on either the law or the actions and precautions taken by the CPS. He's probably of the belief that children are owned by their parents and have no rights of their own. Grrrrr.........:furious:

[mollymalone]

The sad fact is the children do not have as many rights as the adults in our country or many others.

[mysteriew]

Yes, I think that Texas did right by making the raid. I just wish that the other states had done it before they had ended up in Texas.

I noted with interest an interview with an FLDS woman, she echoed a statement I had seen on the web. She asked where the public was and why weren't they coming to the FLDS aid. I believe the FLDS thought that they could do like they did in Short Creek. Blame the government and appeal to those who are anti government. Claim religious persecution, and gain the support of the churches. Blame it on bias because they are different, and appeal to those who feel left out by society. But this time it didn't work.

This time there was national attention. This time there was the internet. This time there were many former members who had spoken out publically about their ordeals and made that info available to the public. This time, their was a clear statement of purposes in the raid. This time there have been too many books and movies about the situation and too much info available to allow them to get by with swaying public attention. So appeals to the public aren't working like they did at Short Creek. I bet that is a bitter pill to swallow.

[mollymalone]

Yes, I think that Texas did right by making the raid. I just wish that the other states had done it before they had ended up in Texas.

I noted with interest an interview with an FLDS woman, she echoed a statement I had seen on the web. She asked where the public was and why weren't they coming to the FLDS aid. I believe the FLDS thought that they could do like they did in Short Creek. Blame the government and appeal to those who are anti government. Claim religious persecution, and gain the support of the churches. Blame it on bias because they are different, and appeal to those who feel left out by society. But this time it didn't work.

This time there was national attention. This time there was the internet. This time there were many former members who had spoken out publically about their ordeals and made that info available to the public. This time, their was a clear statement of purposes in the raid. This time there have been too many books and movies about the situation and too much info available to allow them to get by with swaying public attention. So appeals to the public aren't working like they did at Short Creek. I bet that is a bitter pill to swallow.So right. With so many more sources of instant information we're all much more informed. Ironic isn't it? The very same "women" that they choose to subjugate are the ones who escaped and spoke out and have worked to get offical attention and help. And if Swinton's phone call was the one that got CPS/LE out there, ironic that a member of the very race their leaders decry, and a woman to boot made that call. Ironic that a female Judge is making the tought decisions and isn't under the control.

I got my hands on Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" today and I've started reading it.

[mysteriew]

So right. With so many more sources of instant information we're all much more informed. Ironic isn't it? The very same "women" that they choose to subjugate are the ones who escaped and spoke out and have worked to get offical attention and help. And if Swinton's phone call was the one that got CPS/LE out there, ironic that a member of the very race their leaders decry, and a woman to boot made that call. Ironic that a female Judge is making the tought decisions and isn't under the control.
I got my hands on Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" today and I've started reading it.

Good points. It is very ironic now that I think about it.

[Leila]

Yes, I think that Texas did right by making the raid. I just wish that the other states had done it before they had ended up in Texas.

I noted with interest an interview with an FLDS woman, she echoed a statement I had seen on the web. She asked where the public was and why weren't they coming to the FLDS aid. I believe the FLDS thought that they could do like they did in Short Creek. Blame the government and appeal to those who are anti government. Claim religious persecution, and gain the support of the churches. Blame it on bias because they are different, and appeal to those who feel left out by society. But this time it didn't work.

This time there was national attention. This time there was the internet. This time there were many former members who had spoken out publically about their ordeals and made that info available to the public. This time, their was a clear statement of purposes in the raid. This time there have been too many books and movies about the situation and too much info available to allow them to get by with swaying public attention. So appeals to the public aren't working like they did at Short Creek. I bet that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Excellent analysis!

I think one of the things that really backfired on the FLDS was opening the YFZ ranch to the media and putting the women out there for interviews. During the interviews the women were evasive as to their names, avoided questions, and acted rehearsed. Although they touched a tissue to their eyes frequently, there were no tears.

In one such interview that's been played a number of times, Marilyn and two other women recount the time they spent in the shelter. Marilyn says her daughter said to her, "Mama all they do is tell us lies." The reporter asked Marilyn what CPS lied about. Marilyn replied, "They tell us one thing and then do another. They say we'll be together, and then separate us." During this interview, Marilyn dabs at her eyes with a tissue, but there's no tears and no grief. It was a sham.

The tour Marilyn gave of her home, was enlightening in so far as it clearly illustrated a number of adverse things - the only pictures on the walls were of Warren Jeffs and other men in FLDS leadership; the institutional appearance of the kitchen and living room; the total lack of toys or playthings for children; and absolutely no personal touches one expects to find in a home. Marilyn herself acted as if she had rehearsed the tour a number of times before doing it in front of a camera. Her commentary was very stilted. If that's a typical FLDS home, it's cold and sterile like an institution.

The attitude of the FLDS women, their lack of honesty, and the fact that none of the men would show their face painted a clear picture of something very wrong.

[Vegas Bride]

Yes, their "home" during the tour looked very bare of anything to make it warm, welcoming and comfortable
No pictures on the walls of children, only Warren, ughhh that alone makes me :furious:

I bet the flds did think many would come to their aid because "their children were stolen" guess they weren't thinking about any truth coming out, just wait til all the dna tests are in! Oh wait, maybe a lot of that won't get done because mothers and fathers will not cooporate. Guess their children aren't that important to them after all.

VB

[mysteriew]

Among the responses to last week’s column — the one on polygamy co-authored by Religion Editor Patrick Butler — was a letter with a set of what seems, at first, to be a list of reasonable questions.


But they’re not. And I’ll explain why.


snip....The letter writer said he found our column “very interesting,” but added that it failed to explore many issues. He follows with three questions:


1. Does the state have the right to remove children who have been loved by their mothers and where no child abuse can be found, even if polygamy is present?


2. Can (a wife) be prosecuted for polygamy if one’s “husband” is a spiritual husband rather than a legal one?


3. If it’s right to remove children because a husband has been sleeping with more than one woman (his plural wives), should that apply in “normal” society when a man sleeps around with other women?
http://www.tylerpaper.com/article/20080504/OPINION0301/805030362

Excellent response to the questions.

[mollymalone]

Among the responses to last week’s column — the one on polygamy co-authored by Religion Editor Patrick Butler — was a letter with a set of what seems, at first, to be a list of reasonable questions.


But they’re not. And I’ll explain why.


snip....The letter writer said he found our column “very interesting,” but added that it failed to explore many issues. He follows with three questions:


1. Does the state have the right to remove children who have been loved by their mothers and where no child abuse can be found, even if polygamy is present?


2. Can (a wife) be prosecuted for polygamy if one’s “husband” is a spiritual husband rather than a legal one?


3. If it’s right to remove children because a husband has been sleeping with more than one woman (his plural wives), should that apply in “normal” society when a man sleeps around with other women?
http://www.tylerpaper.com/article/20080504/OPINION0301/805030362

Excellent response to the questions.Thanks for finding that and bringing it to us! After reading his response I looked at his other articles and this one brings up some very good points too.

http://www.tylerpaper.com/article/20080427/OPINION0301/804260375
There are also "unusual levels of child poverty," the newspaper added. "For example, across the street from Hildale in Colorado City, Ariz., every school-age child in town was living below the poverty level, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates from 1997, the most current available."

"But there's little question the raid was justified. Illegal activity was taking place - polygamy and the sexual abuse of children, at the very least. Let's all remember that as we see the FLDS begin its public relations campaign, and its defense of the indefensible."

[mysteriew]

Lawyers for the FLDS members have been arguing in the press that the entry and removal of the children constituted a "massive" violation of due process. Others have argued that the authorities' actions represent the unfair targeting of one religion.

Each of these arguments is singularly misguided.

The due-process argument

Whether or not the caller was legitimate, the important point is the lack of any government misconduct and the serious evidence of crimes to children.

snip...Before criticizing the Texas authorities who have witnessed the operation of the FLDS firsthand, one must stop to think about what was going on in this compound. This is a conspiracy of adults to commit systematic child sex abuse, where the men and the women force their girls to be "married" to much older men in order to have many children, and where they groom their boys to be the next generation of abusers, and then abandon some of their own boys in order to keep the numbers favorable for the abusing men.

What is most striking is that not a single adult from the ranch or the sect has been willing to admit to the obvious cycle of severe child sexual abuse. One of the most chilling statements I have ever heard -- and I have focused upon organizational child abuse, including within the Roman Catholic Church -- was that of the mother who would not answer a reporter's question about whether girls were married off to much older men, but rather asserted that whatever happened there happened out of "love."

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/620718.html

[Floh]

One of the most chilling statements I have ever heard -- and I have focused upon organizational child abuse, including within the Roman Catholic Church -- was that of the mother who would not answer a reporter's question about whether girls were married off to much older men, but rather asserted that whatever happened there happened out of "love."

:sick::sick::sick:

[Details]

I'm torn. In a way, I think they did the right thing. Those girls were being abused, and the boys were being raised in a manner that wouldn't let them fit into the modern world very well if they should choose to leave their parent's religion. But, legally I don't know if they had a right to do it. I think they acted in good faith initially. But I am also disturbed to think that the camel is getting its nose into the tent of religion. This bears watching, they are going for the FLDS, who/what will they go for next, is what I wonder. The girls weren't allowed to leave - and the boys weren't given the choice to stay in many documented cases.

As to the camel's nose - I think it goes the other way - FLDS is a camel's nose (and hump, imo) to the idea that religion gives you immunity from the laws everyone else must follow. We can't let our fear of fictional futures mean we allow child sacrifice (to take the extreme example - although not so extreme to read what these children do go through) if your religion demands it.

[Trino]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/16/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

A real problem. Perhaps only 5-6 girls were actually under 18. Texas may have to concede that most girls are adults.

[mysteriew]

I'm not so sure that wasn't partially deliberate. From what I am reading, the ones that were thought to be kids but were possibly adults were pregnant. And with FLDS telling lies about names and ages, there was always a question as to whether they would submit false documents, so the state tried to err on the side of the children. In some ways the FLDS bit off their own nose to spite their face..... if they hadn't started changing names and ages, switching ID bands, and things like that the state would have had to admit to those who were adults because they could have been identified sooner.

[luvbeaches]

Texas authorities did the right thing. Based on what they found in Texas, they should have probable cause to raid all these compounds, IMO. It's sickening what these people are doing to their children.

[SLY]

Don't Mess With TEXAS!!!

That is their motto on dealing with trash.

Sly

[ttrachel04]

if you're 15 and expecting your 3rd or 4th child (from someone 18+) ... hmmm this is a tough one ... or not !!!!!

i heard they were suspecting boys of being abused as well, how true is that?

this whole thing just makes me sooooo angryyyyyyyyyy

[Details]

They've found broken bones - more than should have been there - and they haven't even screened all the kids. I think there's a lot of reason to be suspicious. And there's a long record of 'lost boys' - teenage boys, 14-18 thrown out and cut off. Utah at the least does nearly nothing about it - apparently abandoning a child is only a misdemeanor.

[Pepper]

if you're 15 and expecting your 3rd or 4th child (from someone 18+) ... hmmm this is a tough one ... or not !!!!!

i heard they were suspecting boys of being abused as well, how true is that?

this whole thing just makes me sooooo angryyyyyyyyyy

What do you call it when the excess boys are driven 100 miles from home, dumped without food or money, and told to never return? Many of these "Lost Boys" turn to drugs and male prostitution to survive, since they have no education and no marketable skills. So why are they dumped like unwanted kittens on the side of the road? So they don't compete with the elder men in the cult who want more young brides! THAT IS ABUSE!!!!!!! :furious:

[mollymalone]

It's clear that the FLDS core group intends to continue their lifestyle irregardeless, and they won't as long as they have leaders such as he.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-polygamists_25tex.ART.State.Edition2.467ff56.html
Mr. Jessop said if sect members are ever allowed to return to the ranch, it would be a long time until they trust the government. While some kind of "cooperative" community policing model might work, he doesn't foresee sect members changing their lifestyle. "The belief of the people is that religion is not the problem, bias against religion is the problem," Mr. Jessop said

[yolorado]

Once again, the judicial system screws the majority public, generally, and abused children, specifically. I was proud of TX social services but their court system has got me back doubting that American government has the capacity to deal effectively with dangerous minorities. ;(

[yolorado]

It's clear that the FLDS core group intends to continue their lifestyle irregardeless, and they won't as long as they have leaders such as he.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-polygamists_25tex.ART.State.Edition2.467ff56.html
Mr. Jessop said if sect members are ever allowed to return to the ranch, it would be a long time until they trust the government. While some kind of "cooperative" community policing model might work, he doesn't foresee sect members changing their lifestyle. "The belief of the people is that religion is not the problem, bias against religion is the problem," Mr. Jessop said

Someday, I think this group may do something so bad, so destructive to its own members (Jim Jones or Space Ship cult bad) that it can no longer be ignored. If that happens, people will pour out of the wood work, screaming and knashing their teeth, demanding to know why the threat, always there, was not dealt with before this awful occurrance. At that point, I hope someone looks up the TX Supremes who allowed this insantity to continue and asks them that question.

Plainly, people in the FLDS cult in Texas follow the directives of a pedophile, and they teach children to do the same. There weren't crosses on the Walls at Yearing For Zealotry; there were pictures of convict, Warren Jeffs. There were pictures of him in photo albums too--kissing 12 year olds. These people know what he's done, they don't care. If people objected to 14 year olds forced into marriage, or profits deep kissing 12 year-olds, they wouldn't be following him, but they are. Warren Jeff's own nephew filed suit against him for sexual abuse. Still, his followers persist in their dogged admiration. But hey, according to wisdom of judicial giants, there's no proof of child abuse. Sometimes, I really hate this country.

[Jute]

:(Someday, I think this group may do something so bad, so destructive to its own members (Jim Jones or Space Ship cult bad) that it can no longer be ignored. If that happens, people will pour out of the wood work, screaming and knashing their teeth, demanding to know why the threat, always there, was not dealt with before this awful occurrance. At that point, I hope someone looks up the TX Supremes who allowed this insantity to continue and asks them that question.

Plainly, people in the FLDS cult in Texas follow the directives of a pedophile, and they teach children to do the same. There weren't crosses on the Walls at Yearing For Zealotry; there were pictures of convict, Warren Jeffs. There were pictures of him in photo albums too--kissing 12 year olds. These people know what he's done, they don't care. If people objected to 14 year olds forced into marriage, or profits deep kissing 12 year-olds, they wouldn't be following him, but they are. Warren Jeff's own nephew filed suit against him for sexual abuse. Still, his followers persist in their dogged admiration. But hey, according to wisdom of judicial giants, there's no proof of child abuse. Sometimes, I really hate this country.
And all of the unmarked graves in the Babyland cemetary-that just horrifies me. Why so many babies with no names associated with their graves? :furious: :(

[gryphon]

I think that Texas was right in doing the investigation. Taking the children and putting them in foster care was not the right thing. The men should have been barred from the ranch until the investigation was complete.
Foster care is probably worse than the conditions at the ranch. (other than the raping of young girls)

[SewingDeb]

I think that Texas was right in doing the investigation. Taking the children and putting them in foster care was not the right thing. The men should have been barred from the ranch until the investigation was complete.
Foster care is probably worse than the conditions at the ranch. (other than the raping of young girls)

You have a good point but what happens in the usual cases CPS investigates? They don't take the fathers away from the home. They take the children...then the police press charges against whichever parent is responsible for the abuse.

[gryphon]

Yeah, almost every kid and adult that I have known that has spent anytime in foster care usually comes out of it worse. There are exceptions of course. Most fostering is done for the money unfortunately.
Now, some of the children are back at the ranch. Maybe things will change. I find it a bit uncomfortable that the folks at YFZ ranch said they would comply with the laws of the state they are in. Whats to stop them for doing their marriages in states that allow 14 year olds to get married. The fact that their marriages are not even real marriages (with licenses etc) how is that going to stop them?

[mollymalone]

Yeah, almost every kid and adult that I have known that has spent anytime in foster care usually comes out of it worse. There are exceptions of course. Most fostering is done for the money unfortunately.
Now, some of the children are back at the ranch. Maybe things will change. I find it a bit uncomfortable that the folks at YFZ ranch said they would comply with the laws of the state they are in. Whats to stop them for doing their marriages in states that allow 14 year olds to get married. The fact that their marriages are not even real marriages (with licenses etc) how is that going to stop them?It won't. They'll continue to have their "security" thugs maintain a watch while they conduct these so called marriages at flds owned properties.