Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #1

[SuziQ]

So do you think that at the scenes of the other cases LE is looking and has found more- or the Det are releasing more as this case opens up because they are not getting the buy in they need? I would like confrimation of how they got to that number-

I think it's more information coming out from the detectives. There was a presser held yesterday in N.Y. and all I've found is snippets of it here and there. I think alot was disclosed in that presser. I would love to find a complete video of it, because I think different media outlets are reporting on just a few details that they find tantilizing.

[TGIRecovered]

I still like to think some of them are related, but I think it's one person doing it.

Hat is in ready position. LOL

I don't think a gang could have been doing this for so long without someone talking about it.

It does seem that it would be hard to kidnap so many young men from public places without assistance. If they were being lured, I think we would have some stories of double drownings or one that got away, since young men are likely to take a buddy with them if something sounds hinky.

Maybe we have a sick partnership. A psychopathic leader with a lackey?
(Maybe it's those annoying gypsy magazine sellers...geeze I wish they'd all disappear!)

Susan

[Blink34]

Got it, I was referring to the 22 smiley's , IIRC, there was only 6 previously. Yes, the "random" news coverage is maddening-

[eve]

I don't think a gang could have been doing this for so long without someone talking about it.

It does seem that it would be hard to kidnap so many young men from public places without assistance. If they were being lured, I think we would have some stories of double drownings or one that got away, since young men are likely to take a buddy with them if something sounds hinky.

Maybe we have a sick partnership. A psychopathic leader with a lackey?

Susan

I think maybe someone is talking about it, otherwise I don't see how the detectives' theory could be as developed as it appears to be, even with many items being witheld from the press right now. There is a story of a WI guy who woke up struggling in the water - the one who got away. There may be more. Having a blackout like that is extremely traumatic and embarassing -something like a rape. Some kids would be afraid to admit or reveal such an experience.

I think guys are actually more likely to just take off when the mood hits them (than girls) - to go elsewhere, or home, or whatever. My mantra to my son is now "buddy system, buddy system, buddy system!

Eve

[TGIRecovered]

Yes eve, I can see how that would be embarassing for a guy to admit he had been drugged.

I was thinking more along the lines of the killer(s) bailing out if they tried to lure one guy but he showed up with a buddy. If they were being lured rather than kidnapped, there would be no need to slip someone a mickey. What I am saying is that I doubt they were lured. I think they were very discretely "taken". Hence the need for more than one perp, but not a whole gang.

[Littledeer]

First, welcome all new posters! :blowkiss:

Blink: You might be getting the numbers confused with how many of the smiley faces had horns (6) as oppossed to the total number of smiley faces found (22) according to the NY detectives.

I am having a hard time believing that all of these disappearances/deaths were caused by a "gang" going to different states, but these days nothing is IMPOSSIBLE when it comes to crime, as people seem to get sicker and sicker in their mind with the type of crime they mete out every day.

Like Steve Huff and TaxiMom, I will keep an open mind and hope that all fellow WS's do the same. Does anyone know if the smiley faces were at the crime scene at the TIME OF DISCOVERY or only when these two NY detectives went their later to do their own investigation?? I'm sure this information is somewhere on this forum.............

[Blink34]

I think maybe someone is talking about it, otherwise I don't see how the detectives' theory could be as developed as it appears to be, even with many items being witheld from the press right now. There is a story of a WI guy who woke up struggling in the water - the one who got away. There may be more. Having a blackout like that is extremely traumatic and embarassing -something like a rape. Some kids would be afraid to admit or reveal such an experience.

I think guys are actually more likely to just take off when the mood hits them (than girls) - to go elsewhere, or home, or whatever. My mantra to my son is now "buddy system, buddy system, buddy system!

Eve

Absolutely and should be for everyone- eliminate the opportunity, eliminate the crime

[Blink34]

First, welcome all new posters! :blowkiss:

Blink: You might be getting the numbers confused with how many of the smiley faces had horns (6) as oppossed to the total number of smiley faces found (22) according to the NY detectives.

I am having a hard time believing that all of these disappearances/deaths were caused by a "gang" going to different states, but these days nothing is IMPOSSIBLE when it comes to crime, as people seem to get sicker and sicker in their mind with the type of crime they mete out every day.

Like Steve Huff and TaxiMom, I will keep an open mind and hope that all fellow WS's do the same. Does anyone know if the smiley faces were at the crime scene at the TIME OF DISCOVERY or only when these two NY detectives went their later to do their own investigation?? I'm sure this information is somewhere on this forum.............
:crazy: thanks LD, your right I did- my bad!

[Blink34]

Well NYPD is not interested in Gannon and Duarte's investigation either. I was hoping that because the detectives are one of their own, that NYPD would have been more receptive of Gannon and Duarte's work. Also, the first smiley face was found while investigating Chris Jenkin's death.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/04/29/2008-04-29_exnypd_cops_say_smiley_face_is_link_in_4.html

(snip)
"It screamed homicide," said Gannon. Jenkins was found floating on his back with his arms crossed on his chest - an unusual pose for a drowned person.
Jenkins' death was reclassified as a homicide, and the retired NYPD cops found the spot where Jenkins might have been thrown into the water.
It was there that they discovered the first smiley face.
FBI (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation) officials said they do not believe the deaths are the work of a serial killer or related.
And NYPD officials still say McNeill's death was an accident.
"We have no evidence to suggest otherwise, and no one has come forward with any evidence to suggest otherwise," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Paul+J.+Browne).

Let's see how they feel after Josh Szotak's autopsy tomorrow with Dr. Baden

[Littledeer]

No problem blink! LOL :blowkiss: It can get :crazy: trying to keep up with everything sometimes!!

Has anyone done a composite comparison between the males? I mean, number of similarities between descriptive factors (i.e. black hair, brown eyes, etc.). I've noticed some similarities between some and was wondering if maybe that could be a factor??

[hockeymom]

Let's see how they feel after Josh Szotak's autopsy tomorrow with Dr. Baden

Blink,you missed my posting and link, on previous page. That came back already(without tox screening). Showed accidental drowning. As I said on there,it still does not mean there was not foul play.
I checked out the maps of the downtown Albany area and Josh would have to have walked 2 miles in the opposite direction of where his car was parked,steal a car and drive a short distance,park the car and then take a walk 1,000 feet away to the river. It doesn't pass the smell test,in my opinion.
Maybe it isn't connected to any of these other cases,but because it involved a male and drinking it was dismissed by LE.

[DeltaDawn]

I am trying to look for any connections between these young men. Here are a couple I found for your consideration.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

Joshua Guimond
MISSING SINCE 11/9/02

St. John's University campus in Collegeville, Minnesota


Where is Josh Guimond?


Josh was playing cards at Metten Court
and left to return to his dorm, Maur House.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/sjuc.jpg
Bloodhounds

A bloodhound found both Josh Guimond and Christopher Jenkins' scent at the
university . On December 31, 2002, authorities were refused entrance to the campus monastery, then, on January 14, 2003 they were granted permission into the abby. Reportedly the dog picked up "definite scent activity with both boys but it was stronger with Josh."




Matt Kruziki's mother, Debbie, brother, Chris, and many, many others held out hope and searched, but feared the worst. Matt was the second Arrowhead graduate to go missing near the Mississippi River. For a time, Matt and drowning victim, Jared Dion, were Arrowhead varsity wrestling teammates.

Looks like Matt and Jared went to the same high school, both on the varsity wrestling team before entering college.

[Blink34]

Blink,you missed my posting and link, on previous page. That came back already(without tox screening). Showed accidental drowning. As I said on there,it still does not mean there was not foul play.
I checked out the maps of the downtown Albany area and Josh would have to have walked 2 miles in the opposite direction of where his car was parked,steal a car and drive a short distance,park the car and then take a walk 1,000 feet away to the river. It doesn't pass the smell test,in my opinion.
Maybe it isn't connected to any of these other cases,but because it involved a male and drinking it was dismissed by LE.

Your right I did, how did they explain his phone being at the scene of the stolen car- I agree about the smell test, perhaps he did die of drowning , but I do not believe how he got there, another example of investigating a MP as "no foul play" from the beginning is crucial, hopefully Mr. S is following up.

[Blink34]

I am trying to look for any connections between thses young men. Here are a couple I found for your consideration.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

Joshua Guimond
MISSING SINCE 11/9/02

St. John's University campus in Collegeville, Minnesota


Where is Josh Guimond?


Josh was playing cards at Metten Court
and left to return to his dorm, Maur House.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/sjuc.jpg
Bloodhounds

A bloodhound found both Josh Guimond and Christopher Jenkins' scent at the
university . On December 31, 2002, authorities were refused entrance to the campus monastery, then, on January 14, 2003 they were granted permission into the abby. Reportedly the dog picked up "definite scent activity with both boys but it was stronger with Josh."




Matt Kruziki's mother, Debbie, brother, Chris, and many, many others held out hope and searched, but feared the worst. Matt was the second Arrowhead graduate to go missing near the Mississippi River. For a time, Matt and drowning victim, Jared Dion, were Arrowhead varsity wrestling teammates.

Looks like Matt and Jared went to the same high school, both on the varsity wrestling team before entering college.

DD- I could net tell from the article if they were suggesting that their scent should not have been there- i would assume as students they would have but I am not familiar with that campus

[DeltaDawn]

My impression was that Chris and Josh's scent should not have been there because this area is where the monks live on campus and students would not normally go there. I could be wrong but there is more info at the site. You have to look through the whole site to get info..but at one point they put a restraining order against Guimond's father I believe, because he insisted there was foul play from the beginning and for quite sometime he was not even allowed on campus to search. Interesting .

The other odd thing is that Chris Jenkins attended U of Minn , not this college, but their two disappearances happened only 9 days apart...10/31/02 for Chris and 11/9/02 for Josh. Josh did attend this school.

[fran]

This was on that site also. Does not anyone else think this COULD be interesting? How many of the OTHER missing students attended colleges associated to the chruch? or there is a college within that city connected to the church? Not sayin' it IS connected, but.....interesting none the less, imo.

Just curious,
fran

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

May 01, 2002
Accused clergy remain at St. John's Abbey,
schools Abbot releases information to end 'culture of secrecy'
that aids abuse

ASSOCIATED PRESS

COLLEGEVILLE, Minn. -- Thirteen to 15 monks or priests live and work under restrictions at St. John's Abbey after being accused of or admitting to sexual abuse, the abbot for the monastery said.

The number represents about 7 percent of the 196 monks and priests affiliated with the monastery and nearby St. John's University, a preparatory school and a religious press.

Restrictions vary for the men, but they include keeping them off college or prep school grounds and out of university athletic facilities.

Abbot John Klassen, who has led the monastery in central Minnesota for 17 months, said he has been reviewing abuse allegations and wants to "clear the decks.''

He didn't offer a precise number of clergy who are restricted, in part because the types of cases vary. Klassen said the alleged victims were mostly boys ranging in age from 12 to 17, in incidents that took place in the 1970s.

. . . Klassen earlier sent a letter to St. John's University officials and students revealing abuse allegations against a former abbot, the Rev. John Eidenschink.

Klassen said he sent the letter because he wanted to put an end to "a culture of secrecy that makes sexual abuse and exploitation possible." He said the allegations had never been discussed, even within the monastery.

Eidenschink, who served as abbot from 1971-1979, was in poor health at the monastery and wasn't available for comment.

Klassen has made public eight other names: Cosmos Dahlheimer, Richard Eckroth, Finian McDonald, Brennan Maiers, Dunstan Moorse, Allen Tarlton, Fran Hoefgen and John Kelly.

Each has had "credible allegations'' levied against them, and -- except for Dahlheimer and Eckroth -- has acknowledged wrongdoing and sought treatment, Klassen said.

[hockeymom]

Your right I did, how did they explain his phone being at the scene of the stolen car- I agree about the smell test, perhaps he did die of drowning , but I do not believe how he got there, another example of investigating a MP as "no foul play" from the beginning is crucial, hopefully Mr. S is following up.

They are trying to say,he stole the car and dropped his cell phone,all this because he was supposedly so drunk. I will be very curious to see,just how drunk he really was,when the tox report comes back.
And let me ask you this? How many people know how to steal a car? I haven't heard if the DEC left it unlocked with the keys in it.And if they did,he just randomly found this car and decided to take it to the river? Did Josh,know how to hotwire a car? And if he was so drunk,would he be capable of it?

[Blink34]

I am trying to look for any connections between thses young men. Here are a couple I found for your consideration.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

Joshua Guimond
MISSING SINCE 11/9/02

St. John's University campus in Collegeville, Minnesota


Where is Josh Guimond?


Josh was playing cards at Metten Court
and left to return to his dorm, Maur House.
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/sjuc.jpg
Bloodhounds

A bloodhound found both Josh Guimond and Christopher Jenkins' scent at the
university . On December 31, 2002, authorities were refused entrance to the campus monastery, then, on January 14, 2003 they were granted permission into the abby. Reportedly the dog picked up "definite scent activity with both boys but it was stronger with Josh."




Matt Kruziki's mother, Debbie, brother, Chris, and many, many others held out hope and searched, but feared the worst. Matt was the second Arrowhead graduate to go missing near the Mississippi River. For a time, Matt and drowning victim, Jared Dion, were Arrowhead varsity wrestling teammates.

Looks like Matt and Jared went to the same high school, both on the varsity wrestling team before entering college.

IIRC, so did Luke Holman

[Ang50]

IIRC, so did Luke Holman

No, Luke went to Brookfield Central and was on the varsity basketball team. However, they are all from Waukesha County - and the cities are not that far apart. For sure, Luke Homan would have known ABOUT Jared, I don't know if they knew each other personally.

Luke and Jared were both at UW-L. Matt was out in Iowa - not sure what college.

[Ang50]

As I've mentioned before on my threads, the last three WI boys have well-connected families.

Matt Kruziki's father was a U.S. Marshal, and I believe he has been a driving force behind the FBI investigation into the deaths. (Matt, like Chris Jenkins, was "kicked out" of a bar prior to his death.)

Luke Homan and Jared Dion both come from very wealthy school districts. Both were varsity athletes in major sports, so the level of awareness of them personally is very high.

IMHO, if their families still believe there was foul play, they will team up with the Jenkins family in their quest for justice.

[Littledeer]

DD and Ang and others:

Exactly.............scratching the surface is correct. I had asked in an earlier post about similarities..........I was concentrating then on descriptive aspects (i.e. hair coloring, etc.) but these cases also need to be profiled in other ways. (as what you two were discussing about sports).

This would be a major undertaking..............just like what has been started here in breaking down into states..............further breakdowns might be needed??

[aj1020]

As I've mentioned before on my threads, the last three WI boys have well-connected families.

Matt Kruziki's father was a U.S. Marshal, and I believe he has been a driving force behind the FBI investigation into the deaths.

Well I'm glad someone is pushing the FBI on this - from the articles/videos on that MN news site, it looks like local LE isn't interested in this at all. I just don't understand how they don't at the very least owe it to the families to check the evidence out! It sounds like they're blatently ignoring it, and that is maddening to me.

[SeriouslySearching]

The head bouncer denied that Chris was kicked out of the bar, but the 3 other bouncers state the head bouncer told them to not to let him back in. So it is unclear to me that he was actually kicked out. (This was in the police paperwork on the tv site.)

It doesn't surprise me at all that LE isn't interested. You can use Madison as an example. I don't know if it is the overall view LE takes in all cases in WI...but they certainly are not active in pursuing so many murders.

LD I don't think there are any real similarities among these men as far as their physical attributes if you look at their photos. There is also an Asian in there and he is included in their cases.

[DeltaDawn]

LD,

I absolutely agree about the physical characteristics. When I have looked at colored photographs of these guys, some look like they could almost be brothers.

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/houk2.jpg
Jeremy Houk
18-year-old Tulane University student
MISSING: 3/1/03 New Orleans
FOUND: 5/14/03 Mississippi River
Cause of Death: Drowning


http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/nordby.jpg
Christopher Nordby
Former University of Minnesota student
MISSING: 11/7/01 Minneapolis, MN
FOUND: 2/11/02 Mississippi River
Cause of Death: Drowning

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/jenkins.jpg
Chris Jenkins



Darker haired guys


http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/getz.jpg
Ryan Getz
21-years-old,
MISSING: 12/31/97 East Lansing, MI
FOUND: 4/18/98 Red Cedar River
Cause of death: Drowning



http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/welzien.jpg
Brian Welzien
Northern Illinois University student
MISSING: 1/1/00 Chicago, IL
FOUND: 3/17/00 Lake Michigan
Cause of Death: Drowning



http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/blair1.jpg
Eric Blair
Delta College student from Bay City
MISSING: 10/20/01 East Lansing, MI
FOUND: 10/23/01 Red Cedar River
Cause of death: Drowning


http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/dion.jpg
Jason Dion


That's just a few in each category as far as dark hair vs light hair...but something to get you strated LD.

[SeriouslySearching]

DD, if you put 40 college boys together...you are going to find similiar characteristics in many of them. I just don't see this as a factor here tho. (You could say they were all men that many women their age would find attractive, too...but it doesn't mean it is what groups them together in any specific way.)

[Ang50]

Well I'm glad someone is pushing the FBI on this - from the articles/videos on that MN news site, it looks like local LE isn't interested in this at all. I just don't understand how they don't at the very least owe it to the families to check the evidence out! It sounds like they're blatently ignoring it, and that is maddening to me.

The FBI looked only at the La Crosse cases, to my knowledge, and said no foul play.

However, it at least got some people's attention. (And - this is the first time these cases have been collectively and thoroughly discussed even on Websleuths. I have been following both the MN, La Crosse and Kruziki cases for YEARS, but the threads have not been hot like they are now.) Hopefully we all will see movement on the cases.

[sunrise]

LittleRNB just posted this link on the Brian Shaffer board and I will repost the link here.

http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-04-29-0026.html

They are linking Brians case to the Murder Gang. Randy, Brians dad will be on TV tonight with an interview. Hopefully we will be able to catch that on the News website.

Very scary. I pray for all these young men.

[Ang50]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2173690]The head bouncer denied that Chris was kicked out of the bar, but the 3 other bouncers state the head bouncer told them to not to let him back in. So it is unclear to me that he was actually kicked out. (This was in the police paperwork on the tv site.)

[quote]

Hi SS!! Good to "see" you here. I had "kicked out" in quotes b/c it isn't clear in Jenkin's case, but is also not clear in Kruziki's case - there are conflicting reports.

In Kruziki's case, it was freezing temps and he left the bar w/o his jacket - or was kicked out and denied his jacket - again it is not clear.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thank you, Sunrise! Welcome to WS!! Yes, I can easily see how Brian's case could be connected. I look forward to hearing the interview from his dad.

[DeltaDawn]

Did anyone ever read the book The Manhattan Hunt Club by John Saul?

It isn't exactly like this but it was about very powerful people who had a little club where they would let someone go free, but then the object was to hunt them down and kill them. Very similiar in some ways.

[Littledeer]

SS:

Are you saying that it was all random...........with no similarities between the victims?

Has that kind of "serial killing" been done before that has been documented?

[ekj_88]

Hi! I attend the U of M in Minneapolis where Chris Jenkins went to school as well. I was reading our campus paper today and they had an article about him and the connections to the other cases. I don't know if this will have any new info but I figured I'd post the link anyway.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/04/29/72166961

[SeriouslySearching]

Hi SS!! Good to "see" you here. I had "kicked out" in quotes b/c it isn't clear in Jenkin's case, but is also not clear in Kruziki's case - there are conflicting reports.

In Kruziki's case, it was freezing temps and he left the bar w/o his jacket - or was kicked out and denied his jacket - again it is not clear.:blowkiss: Good to see you, Ang! I had no doubt you would join in. :)

Yes, it is curious there are conflicting reports. What would make the head bouncer so adamant he didn't kick him out and the other three followed his lead then shut up about it? I found it very interesting.

When people are kicked out of a bar, I have never heard of the bar holding onto personal items either! This is something that has come up a couple of times. It puts the men in an even more vulnerable state with no jacket or phone.

[SeriouslySearching]

SS:

Are you saying that it was all random...........with no similarities between the victims?

Has that kind of "serial killing" been done before that has been documented?No, I didn't say that. I just don't think their eye color, hair color, or physical characteristics besides being athletic type/healthy males played any part in their selection is all. It must be something else, imo.

[DeltaDawn]

DD, if you put 40 college boys together...you are going to find similiar characteristics in many of them. I just don't see this as a factor here tho. (You could say they were all men that many women their age would find attractive, too...but it doesn't mean it is what groups them together in any specific way.)

I agree SS. I was just responding to Littledeer's question about physical similarities.
I think that who ever does this is looking for similiar physical characteristics as in height, weight, age, phyiscal condition..I think that comes into play for the perps during the torture. Meaning they use the drugs to get them, but that when it is time for the torture they want smart, physically strong and healthy specimans. This is really sick, I even hated writing something like that. But I think that they would never prey on the weak, they just wouldn't get a thrill out of that so to speak. For some reason they seem to prefer a very specific individual that meets whatever their criteria is. Just disgusting what these people are doing.

[Blink34]

My impression was that Chris and Josh's scent should not have been there because this area is where the monks live on campus and students would not normally go there. I could be wrong but there is more info at the site. You have to look through the whole site to get info..but at one point they put a restraining order against Guimond's father I believe, because he insisted there was foul play from the beginning and for quite sometime he was not even allowed on campus to search. Interesting .

The other odd thing is that Chris Jenkins attended U of Minn , not this college, but their two disappearances happened only 9 days apart...10/31/02 for Chris and 11/9/02 for Josh. Josh did attend this school.

Do you know if the same dogs were used at both sites when they went missing or other?

[Silver~Bell]

If you are like I used to be, you might be unaware that the web is absolutely crawling with a lot of bizarre "fetish" groups. So I don't discount the idea of a "group" and think it more plausible than a "gang."

If you look at when these similar "drownings" began, some were back before the internet was used by very many people, but you'll note many more instances once the internet became common. One possible reason: These similar-minded perps were able to communicate with one another via their groups on the web. Birds of a feather flock together. There are literally 1000's and 10's of 1000's who participate in bizarre things and travel to do so. They just shut down an "orgy house" in Texas and it's not the only one by any means.

Even tiny towns where you'd think they'd be isolated can have these internet-based groups come in and buy a house and use it for terrible purposes.

There is an entire bizarre underworld going on 24/7. I for one find it to be almost like having some horrible nightmare and wishing to wake up because it's just so crazy. On top of the horrible news out of Austria about the captive daughter, the news out of Florida about a young man kidnapped and held for ransom, now this terrible specter of a group of killers.

By the way, I did a Google search of "smily face" (spelled funny on purpose) and one thing I saw was a site that said it had "smily faces with a bullet hole in head" backgrounds for MySpace pages. But I was too scared to click on the site.

[Blink34]

They are trying to say,he stole the car and dropped his cell phone,all this because he was supposedly so drunk. I will be very curious to see,just how drunk he really was,when the tox report comes back.
And let me ask you this? How many people know how to steal a car? I haven't heard if the DEC left it unlocked with the keys in it.And if they did,he just randomly found this car and decided to take it to the river? Did Josh,know how to hotwire a car? And if he was so drunk,would he be capable of it?

Unless I am wrong, they initally named him as a suspect in stealing the car but they publicly apologized for that and they no longer consider him a suspect- if that's incorrect anyone let me know-

[DeltaDawn]

Welcome ejk88..and thank you for that link.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/04/29/72166961


The investigators said the gangs leave specific graffiti at the sites of their killings, including a smiley face at the site of Chris Jenkins' murder, as well as 12 other symbols repeated throughout the 40 cases, Steve Jenkins said.
St. Cloud State University associate professor Lee Gilbertson, a member of the investigative team, said the private investigators had the benefit of seeing larger patterns in the evidence of the 40 disappearances, whereas local authorities looked at only the isolated cases. "In every case, the physical evidence led in one direction and the body was found in another," Gilbertson said.

I wonder what the 12 other specific symbols are?

[SeriouslySearching]

The investigators said the gangs leave specific graffiti at the sites of their killings, including a smiley face at the site of Chris Jenkins' murder, as well as 12 other symbols repeated throughout the 40 cases, Steve Jenkins said.

~snip~

Steve Jenkins said the graffiti represents concrete physical evidence and that the investigators also corroborated the accounts of alleged witnesses from other disappearances. Additionally, Jenkins said the investigators have identified suspects, although they've declined to release names.

~snip~

The investigators, who have been working unpaid on the cases for two years, met four weeks ago with Minneapolis police to present their evidence, but approached the national media after local authorities didn't act, Steve Jenkins said.

"There's a lot more evidence that they did not share (with police)," Steve Jenkins said. "They showed just enough to get the (authorities') interest in collaboration."

The investigators and families are hoping media attention will lead to FBI and other federal authority involvement; if that fails they'll pressure the U.S. Senate to convene a grand jury, Steve Jenkins said.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/04/29/72166961 (Bolded by me)

Welcome to WS, Ekj 88! Thanks for posting that link as it did bring up some new information...at least to me. :)

What are the other symbols besides the smiley faces?

I think the reason they chose to go public isn't for money for themselves, but was an effort to get the resources from the other LE agencies. If the local agencies and the state were to pick up the cases...they would have access to areas such as laboratories to help bring these cases together. It makes perfect sense to me for them to come forward to put pressure on LE now.

[DeltaDawn]

Do you know if the same dogs were used at both sites when they went missing or other?


I think that the same dogs were used at the college where both their scents were found..meaning this tracking occurred at the same time. So some one must have thought there could be a connection between the two disappearances to even have dogs tracking both the kids scent at the same college. I hope that made some sense.

[MissHolmes]

Couple of questions. The detectives in their GMA interview mentioned that at least two of the murders happened at the same time 600 miles apart. Has anyone found this connection?

And in the same interview when they showed the map of the states popping up where these murders have taken place Washington State was included. Has anyone found this/those murders?

Hope Im not repeating questions, just got home)

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Silver~Bell and Porkchop! :)

[Littledeer]

I agree SS. I was just responding to Littledeer's question about physical similarities.


And I thank you for that DD. And there are similarities...........what they are is what I was trying to look for. Started with physical...(which there are many that have the same)..........

But there are also others (built, etc.).

What's really scary IMO, is how smart these killers are. They lead the LE in one direction based on evidence and yet............the bodies are found in a completely different direction in most cases. (not all..........)

Someone mentioned before internet.......................I was posting before internet came from (blah blah blah) that started in (blah blah blah) and we got together at a picnic..............it was at that time just a group of HONEST PEOPLE, and it was surprising to actually see the individuals in person that belong to the nick they had. But in today's world, it is so scary because anyone can be anyone and yet NOT WHO THEY ARE.

No, I really am Littledeer who cares....................Just adding my 2 cents worth.

[Blink34]

I think that the same dogs were used at the college where both their scents were found..meaning this tracking occurred at the same time. So some one must have thought there could be a connection between the two disappearances to even have dogs tracking both the kids scent at the same college. I hope that made some sense.

yes, but I think it does dilute the result actually, it would have been better to use them seperately as Chris would not have had a reason to be there. k9 use can be excellent, but TES has told me it has alot of flaws when going to a well traveled site vs. say, a secluded area. Thanks DD

[SeriouslySearching]

Miss Holmes, we have people cross-referencing dates etc. to possibly connect the dots. I don't think they have come up with anything yet, but I could be mistaken.

I don't know about Washington State connections either. I will check on those. Anyone?

ETA: I started a thread for possible victims from WA state. Feel free to add cases which could relate.

[SuziQ]

Let's see how they feel after Josh Szotak's autopsy tomorrow with Dr. Baden

After conducting a second autopsy Monday on drowning victim Joshua Szostak, forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden apparently also concluded the death was due to accidental drowning, law enforcement officials said. (more at link)

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684577&category=ALBANY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=4/29/2008

[SeriouslySearching]

Baden performed the procedure at Parker Bros. Memorial Funeral Home in Watervliet. The pathologist, who has been involved in numerous high-profile cases, was tight-lipped when he came out, declining to make the results public. Calls to the Szostaks and to Baden were not returned. Law enforcement officials who said the latest autopsy also found the death was accidental did not want to be named.

~snip~

Unless something comes to the surface, indicating anything different, that's the way the case will stand," Detective James Miller, public safety spokesman, said Monday. "The autopsy by Dr. Baden was not requested by the Albany police or the New York State Police."

Hubbard had said that blood and tissue samples taken during his autopsy are being tested for traces of alcohol or drugs and that results would take about two weeks.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684577&category=ALBANY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=4/29/2008

It is important to note that none of this came from Dr. Baden and only from LE. I don't think I want to trust LE's take on Dr. Baden's results.

[DeltaDawn]

Hi Miss Holmes,

Shadow posted this and I think as we keep cross referencing we will find more. I am trying to work on the Halloween date of 10/31 and 11/1, since it would be 11/1 if it was after midnight.



Here's what I have, though, this may not even be remotely accurate:1997-12-31: Ryan Getz, Student, 21, East Lansing, MI [Drowning]1997-12-31: Larry Andrews, N/A, 22, NYC, NY [Drowning]

[removed non-identical dates]

2006-04-01: Wade Michael Lurk, Student, 17, Ste. Genevieve, MO [Drowning]2006-04-01: Brian Shaffer, Student, 27, Columbus, OH [Missing]

[SuziQ]

Hi! I attend the U of M in Minneapolis where Chris Jenkins went to school as well. I was reading our campus paper today and they had an article about him and the connections to the other cases. I don't know if this will have any new info but I figured I'd post the link anyway.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/04/29/72166961


Welcome to WS! I found the below quotes in bold, from your link interesting. Shows me why LE still may not be interested.


Steve Jenkins said the graffiti represents concrete physical evidence and that the investigators also corroborated the accounts of alleged witnesses from other disappearances. Additionally, Jenkins said the investigators have identified suspects, although they've declined to release names. "There's a lot more evidence that they did not share (with police)," Steve Jenkins said. "They showed just enough to get the (authorities') interest in collaboration."

[LillyRush]

I'm sure it's been a decade since I've followed anything about Dahmer. But LE just doesn't view males as victims. So much so that LE even delivered a vic back to Dahmer because of a lame story Dahmer gave them.

I remember that. It is sad to think how close that victim was to being saved. The way the victims were portrayed in that movie about it was also disgusting. I couldn't even watch the whole thing, it was like some wierd gay porn/murder film.

But, I agree, it just goes to show how LE views male victims so differently.

[SuziQ]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684577&category=ALBANY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=4/29/2008

It is important to note that none of this came from Dr. Baden and only from LE. I don't think I want to trust LE's take on Dr. Baden's results.

I wonder if any of this will now show up on Greta?

[SeriouslySearching]

I am surprised at Greta's lack of acknowledgement, but I remember how she got slammed for suggesting a serial killer during Kelly Nolan's case. Maybe she is going to be very cautious about her approach now. I have no doubt her crew is following this with great interest tho. :)

[hockeymom]

Unless I am wrong, they initally named him as a suspect in stealing the car but they publicly apologized for that and they no longer consider him a suspect- if that's incorrect anyone let me know-

Yes,LE did name him,but recanted. But it is obvious they still believe this to be true. Since I'm from the Albany area and very familiar with locations,I went back and researched the original news reports from December. I sort of mapped out what LE's theory would have had to be as far as what directions Josh went in. It makes very little sense. I'm not sure if I should post it here on on the New York thread specifically. Anyone have some guidance for me?

[Littledeer]

Posted by lilyrush

it just goes to show how LE views male victims so differently.

And therein lies the problem with so many of the male disappearances. The LE who investigate them are mostly made up of "males" and they remember when they were young and did the "drinking" and "female" thing in their youth. So, when a young male has disappeared and drinking was involved (as in last time seen was at a bar) those in LE think........well, so what.........he had a few............he's probably with a female right now or drinking it off and..................they go back in their squad car........ etc. etc. etc. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Done ranting..............

Dr. Baden is well known.......................most people believe his pathological reports..................but there have been other cases that some still question, even here on WS.

[Blink34]

Yes,LE did name him,but recanted. But it is obvious they still believe this to be true. Since I'm from the Albany area and very familiar with locations,I went back and researched the original news reports from December. I sort of mapped out what LE's theory would have had to be as far as what directions Josh went in. It makes very little sense. I'm not sure if I should post it here on on the New York thread specifically. Anyone have some guidance for me?


POST IT

:blowkiss:

[Silver~Bell]

Something I don't understand -- isn't drowning just drowning? I mean, would it not be almost impossible to determine if it's truly accidental if quite a bit of time had passed between death and finding the body? What I'm getting at is, if someone were held underwater by several people, or weighted with weights that are later removed (since the people who are doing this are really into complex, staged things), while drunk, they would not necessarily be bruised or show much struggling, but the reason they drowned would NOT be accidental...


I am snooping around on the net now, looking at Craigslist in some of those heavily-hit areas to see what I see...

[Silver~Bell]

BTW I'd love to know what those other symbols are that appear at the murder sites, but understand that they can't be revealed at this time...but they'd help at least in internet searching, may reveal political leanings (not Rep or Dem, weird leanings) and the use of symbols definitely has me thinking this is a widespread group of tight-knit weirdos doing this...

I will now be quiet and let the Big Brains post!!!

[Blink34]

I wonder if any of this will now show up on Greta?

I certainly hope so- aside from being a brilliant pathologist I find his delivery uncharacteristicly succint for FP

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, it would be almost impossible to say if a person was held underneath the water and drowned if they were already in an incapacitated state. If the person didn't fight back, it would be fairly easy to hold them underneath long enough to drown them and any evidence on their body such as fibers, hair, etc. would be washed away. This is why Chris' mother stated they were perfect murders, imo. However, Chris did show signs of a struggle with his own hair being in his hand.

Unless there are bruises or other evidence of a struggle, there isn't any way to actually distinguish a murder from an accidental drowning that I have found. They can only say that a murder occurred if the person was dead before entering the water.

[SeriouslySearching]

BTW I'd love to know what those other symbols are that appear at the murder sites, but understand that they can't be revealed at this time...but they'd help at least in internet searching, may reveal political leanings (not Rep or Dem, weird leanings) and the use of symbols definitely has me thinking this is a widespread group of tight-knit weirdos doing this...

I will now be quiet and let the Big Brains post!!!LOL Keep posting! Since we don't know what the other symbols are...speculation is all we have! :) While we do have some "Big Brains" here...most of us have normal size with lots of ideas and avenues to pursue. Collectively, we make a big brain tho. :D

(Maybe there is something to look at...party affiliation among the boys or their parents.)

[Blink34]

SS/SQ:
Do you think it wise to start a thread in this form for potential victims still missing as a databank, here's my thoughts- We get an article of remains recovered in x.. rather than sift through each individual thread of possible vics, it would be like a repository and then as they are Id'd we could move the data to the individual thread?
Thoughts??

[SeriouslySearching]

Sure! Go for it, Blink! :) I found another one in Texas today that popped up in a creek. Have no other details tho.

[SuziQ]

SS/SQ:
Do you think it wise to start a thread in this form for potential victims still missing as a databank, here's my thoughts- We get an article of remains recovered in x.. rather than sift through each individual thread of possible vics, it would be like a repository and then as they are Id'd we could move the data to the individual thread?
Thoughts??

Go for it.

[Blink34]

a regular thread, no sticky thingie??

[Kristins1223]

I had read back where a kid said he thought something had happened to him and ended up in the hospital. Do you think maybe the detectives are also coming out with this info to see if its happened to anyone else? It would also be interesting to find out if the smiley faces were drawn before the "crime" or after. I guess they could determine that by seeing if the picture had been folded.....like in someones pocket.

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

A guide published on the web charting the effects of alcohol (http://www.intox.com/physiology.asp) lists the following conditions of an average person with an alcohol level between 0.25 and 0.40 percent:

Stupor


General inertia; approaching loss of motor functions

Markedly decreased response to stimuli

Marked muscular incoordination; inability to stand or walk

Vomiting; incontinence

Impaired consciousness; sleep or stupor The effects of an alcohol level between 0.35 and 0.50 percent are listed as:

Coma


Complete unconsciousness

Depressed or abolished reflexes

Subnormal body temperature

Incontinence

Impairment of circulation and respiration

Possible death

[LillyRush]

Yes, it would be almost impossible to say if a person was held underneath the water and drowned if they were already in an incapacitated state. If the person didn't fight back, it would be fairly easy to hold them underneath long enough to drown them and any evidence on their body such as fibers, hair, etc. would be washed away. This is why Chris' mother stated they were perfect murders, imo. However, Chris did show signs of a struggle with his own hair being in his hand.

Unless there are bruises or other evidence of a struggle, there isn't any way to actually distinguish a murder from an accidental drowning that I have found. They can only say that a murder occurred if the person was dead before entering the water.

SS, That is a great point about his hair being in his hands. I wonder if they even deemed that as suspicious or looked right over it.

[SeriouslySearching]

a regular thread, no sticky thingie??I don't know how to make a "sticky thingie". LOL I guess the Mods do that.

[Littledeer]

It would also be interesting to find out if the smiley faces were drawn before the "crime" or after. I guess they could determine that by seeing if the picture had been folded.....like in someones pocket.

Thank you Kristens.............I've also have wanted to know the answer to this question and have posted it already.

Still waiting for a response though.

[SeriouslySearching]

Here is another one I ran across: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64160

Circumstances are: 20yo College athlete chased in a vehicle then ended up in a lake with mud packed into his mouth down to his vocal chords. They ruled it an "accidental asphyxiation". KBI are reinvestigating as a possible homicide.

[Littledeer]

DD:

Any way "weight" can be brought into that web chart you posted on the effect of alcohol??

[Blink34]

I don't know how to make a "sticky thingie". LOL I guess the Mods do that.

Well good than I can do all by "mineown" as my little girl used to say:blowkiss:

[hockeymom]

OK, here's the info I have gathered on Josh Szostak. He somehow gets lost from his friends at the Bayou cafe. He is seen on surviellence cameras on N.Pearl Street at 12:15. (Last text message on his phone is 12:17,but press didn't say what it said). According to tracking dogs,his scent was followed to Lincoln park,approximently 3/4's of a mile away from where he was last seen. It was in the direction of where he left his car and where hewas going to be sleeping that night. The dogs lose the scent there.
LE finds his cell phone 1 1/2 miles away in the opposite direction of his car,in the Port of Albany. It is near a stolen Dept of Environmental Conservation car. That car was stolen earlier(I have no idea how they know that). the garage that the car is stolen from, is no more than 1/2 mile from where it was parked.
LE would have you believe(although they have officially recanted ),that Josh,walked all that way,then turned around and walked in the complete opposite direction to steal a car,drive it along the river,park the car and then walk down to the river and fall in. All this while drunk and cold.(he only had a Tee shirt and sweatshirt on)
They really have no idea where he entered the river,but because his cell phone was found at the Port,they assume it was there. his body was found about 30 miles down river,after the ice melted.
It doesn't add up to me. And robbery wasn't a motive as he had his wallet on him with cash and credit cards. So why would someone just take someone and drop them in the river?

[SeriouslySearching]

I had read back where a kid said he thought something had happened to him and ended up in the hospital. Do you think maybe the detectives are also coming out with this info to see if its happened to anyone else? It would also be interesting to find out if the smiley faces were drawn before the "crime" or after. I guess they could determine that by seeing if the picture had been folded.....like in someones pocket.Welcome to WS, Kristins! While I don't know that is a reason they are coming out with it now, it could very well be a fortunate bi-product. There could be other men out there that will now come forward with their own stories!

I believe the smileys are actually painted or sketched on surfaces near the scenes and not on paper. They could possibly determine the age of the paint etc., but would not be done without help from the FBI labs, imo (in my opinion).

[SeriouslySearching]

Great job, Hockeymom! No, their theory doesn't sound plausible at all!

[Littledeer]

SS:

I would think if the smileys were drawn on paper, they are long gone by now due to rain, wind and other elements.

From the pics that were shown........the smileys were on a "board" of some sort.........maybe others were on a railroad tressel (you know, on the side) or on a bridge under a overpass of a highway)

[Littledeer]

SS:

Sorry..........just re-read your post...............you didn't say paper.

SO SORRY!!

But, I really wish you would push the fact on knowing when those "smiley faces" were first seen!!

[SuziQ]

OK, here's the info I have gathered on Josh Szostak. He somehow gets lost from his friends at the Bayou cafe. He is seen on surviellence cameras on N.Pearl Street at 12:15. (Last text message on his phone is 12:17,but press didn't say what it said). According to tracking dogs,his scent was followed to Lincoln park,approximently 3/4's of a mile away from where he was last seen. It was in the direction of where he left his car and where hewas going to be sleeping that night. The dogs lose the scent there.
LE finds his cell phone 1 1/2 miles away in the opposite direction of his car,in the Port of Albany. It is near a stolen Dept of Environmental Conservation car. That car was stolen earlier(I have no idea how they know that). the garage that the car is stolen from, is no more than 1/2 mile from where it was parked.
LE would have you believe(although they have officially recanted ),that Josh,walked all that way,then turned around and walked in the complete opposite direction to steal a car,drive it along the river,park the car and then walk down to the river and fall in. All this while drunk and cold.(he only had a Tee shirt and sweatshirt on)
They really have no idea where he entered the river,but because his cell phone was found at the Port,they assume it was there. his body was found about 30 miles down river,after the ice melted.
It doesn't add up to me. And robbery wasn't a motive as he had his wallet on him with cash and credit cards. So why would someone just take someone and drop them in the river?

My feeling is the cell phone either fell out of the car or was purposely left there by whoever stole the car. And I don't think where the car was left is where Josh entered the water. I think the car was there merely because whoever stole it lived near that location or their own car was near that location.

[SuziQ]

SS:

Sorry..........just re-read your post...............you didn't say paper.

SO SORRY!!

But, I really wish you would push the fact on knowing when those "smiley faces" were first seen!!

Not sure if you were asking a question, but I'll answer it anyways. lol.

The first smiley face was found at the scene related to the Chris Jenkings murder.

[SeriouslySearching]

One would have to assume the smiley faces were only first "seen" by the two detectives when they went to where they believed the bodies were put into the water. This won't give us any kind of timeline on when they were actually put there, but the detectives have reason to believe it was around the time of the murders. I guess we will have to wait for them to release their timeline of finding the rest of those.

[SeriouslySearching]

Not sure if you were asking a question, but I'll answer it anyways. lol.

The first smiley face was found at the scene related to the Chris Jenkings murder.Are you sure? I thought possibly this came up while investigating others in NY first, but then the connection was made to Chris partly because of them finding it.

[SuziQ]

Here you go SS. I gather alot of new info came out in the presser yesterday, although media has only reported on snippets of it. I've been searching high and low for a vid or transcript of the entire presser with no luck. I have an email into the Minnesota station asking for this, but have not heard back.

Well NYPD is not interested in Gannon and Duarte's investigation either. I was hoping that because the detectives are one of their own, that NYPD would have been more receptive of Gannon and Duarte's work. Also, the first smiley face was found while investigating Chris Jenkin's death.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/04/29/2008-04-29_exnypd_cops_say_smiley_face_is_link_in_4.html

(snip)
"It screamed homicide," said Gannon. Jenkins was found floating on his back with his arms crossed on his chest - an unusual pose for a drowned person.
Jenkins' death was reclassified as a homicide, and the retired NYPD cops found the spot where Jenkins might have been thrown into the water.
It was there that they discovered the first smiley face.
FBI (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation) officials said they do not believe the deaths are the work of a serial killer or related.
And NYPD officials still say McNeill's death was an accident.
"We have no evidence to suggest otherwise, and no one has come forward with any evidence to suggest otherwise," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Paul+J.+Browne).

[LillyRush]

In addition to the smiley faces, is there anything else to indicate that they could be copying some of the things from that Stephen King book?

[SeriouslySearching]

Ah, OK! Thanks, Suzi! I guess I missed that. I hope you do hear back from them soon.

I am leaning more towards the Manhunt game than the Stephen King novel personally. It seems to have more of the elements I would associate to this in the overall scheme of things. The only relation to the character in the novel is the pin on his lapel and he was evil.

[LillyRush]

Thanks for clarifying - I'll have to read more about the manhunt game.

[DeltaDawn]

Does anyone know when the ManHunt game was released?

I am just thinking that it may have been after some of these earlier murders. If so then there was something else driving these groups/cults previous to that.

Once again Son of Sam talked about the cult he was in, but would not name names nor details, just info about some of the crimes. So I guess when you add in the Manson Family ..well these kinds of strange evil people have been around a long time. I think the internet has just upped their game so they can all play with each other across the country..let their evil spread so to speak.

Well thank god for these detectives..they were able to get the broader picture then individual LE in assorted locales.

[SeriouslySearching]

You are right, DD.

Manhunt is a controversial third-person video game released by Rockstar Games in November 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(video_game)

[SeriouslySearching]

Didn't someone mention an older game they used to play?

[Littledeer]

Let me help SS here and others.

I'm a huge Stephen King fan............and have "THE STAND" along with his other written works all around my house. (yes....they are scattered, and when I retire and get organized I will put them all on in one bookcase) :)

The "smiley face" that is being seen at these sites IMO, have nothing to do with this novel. (even though it is good vs. evil right now here on this site).

Video games, which is being brought up, is IMO............the way to go.

I have never been into them, but my son used to play a lot of videos. Will give him a call and ask what he knows about Manhant and others that have been brought up. Also, will warn him and tell him to warn others on the campus where he lives at!!!!!!

[hockeymom]

My feeling is the cell phone either fell out of the car or was purposely left there by whoever stole the car. And I don't think where the car was left is where Josh entered the water. I think the car was there merely because whoever stole it lived near that location or their own car was near that location.

The thing about the Port of Albany is,its not destination spot,except in the day. At night its scary,nobody would go there. I don't believe its very well lit,but I can't say for sure. You would have to set out to go there.
Some people may say Josh was lost or disoriented,but #1 ,why wouldn't he have used his cell phone for help,and 2nd,Albany is very small and you really can't get disoriented. There are only a couple big buildings,if you keep them as your landmarks,its near impossable to get lost,even if you are a stranger to the area,and Josh was not.

[Silver~Bell]

Not only is there that game Manhunt, but by trying to see if there is some weird group, I also found the site manhunt.net, which I think is gay personals but I am fearful of clicking on it.

Also, the Mara Salvatrucha gang has certain cliques within it that they call the "devil's horns." I think it's 6 of the smileys with devil horns found so far? Don't know if there's a connection but that is a fearsome, viscious gang.

Didn't Nirvana have a weird smiley face for one of its albums?

[Silver~Bell]

Anyone know if some of the nicknames that were also found at the originating sites (where they actually went to put the bodies in the water, not the sites where they were found) are known? Have any of those nicknames that were painted onto the walls/boards been released?

[SuziQ]

Here is another one I ran across: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64160

Circumstances are: 20yo College athlete chased in a vehicle then ended up in a lake with mud packed into his mouth down to his vocal chords. They ruled it an "accidental asphyxiation". KBI are reinvestigating as a possible homicide.

This is a weird case. Also interesting from the above link:


Mitchell believes Derrick Heidt had some type of psychological breakdown the night at the lake.
Derrick Heidt had an unusually large amount of urine in his body - about four times normal - which Mitchell interprets as a sign that Heidt's mental state was in distress. "There was no physical obstruction, nothing was affecting his bladder. It was a mental effect," Mitchell said.

I've never heard of that before. Has anyone else?

[SuziQ]

http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-04-29-0026.html

(snip)
NBC 4's Tom Brockman spoke with Randy Shaffer on Tuesday, who said that without clear information and evidence, the new theory is just that -- another theory.
"It's hard for me to go on with my life. It still is. I'm just sort of stuck in limbo because of all this stuff sometimes," he said. "I listen to it and I guess I try to (say) -- whether it be psychics or this -- well, OK. If that's so, show me some information, some proof that you have, that you know this could have happened to my son. And I haven't seen that proof yet."

[shadowraiths]

KSTP
April 29, 2008
A scenic New York college campus has become the center of an air and ground search after the disappearance of one of their students from St. Paul.

William Jacobson, 19, is a freshman at Ithaca College. He was last seen leaving a costume party off-campus early Sunday morning.
Full article: click here (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S428484.shtml?cat=1)

[DeltaDawn]

I need to go back and watch the videos because I thought it was the spot where they believe the bodies went into the water is where the graffitti and smiley faces are. That would explain why local LE never saw them..they never traced back to the origin of where they went into water.

Help..someone correct me if I am wrong.

[DeltaDawn]

This is a weird case. Also interesting from the above link:


Mitchell believes Derrick Heidt had some type of psychological breakdown the night at the lake.
Derrick Heidt had an unusually large amount of urine in his body - about four times normal - which Mitchell interprets as a sign that Heidt's mental state was in distress. "There was no physical obstruction, nothing was affecting his bladder. It was a mental effect," Mitchell said.

I've never heard of that before. Has anyone else?

I have heard of this in torture situations where a person is told to hold their urine or there will be dire consequences. Actually in children that are abused this is quite common..they are given infinite amount of liquids ..then told to hold their pee..if not they will be beaten. This came out in many bizarre child abuse cases and abductions. The first case that came to my mind was that of Sybil.

[Cambria]

Here's an article on another student from Ohio, this one from Ohio University in Athens, who they think may have been one of the victims.

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2008/04/29/athens_drowning.html?sid=102

[Blink34]

I have heard of this in torture situations where a person is told to hold their urine or there will be dire consequences. Actually in children that are abused this is quite common..they are given infinite amount of liquids ..then told to hold their pee..if not they will be beaten. This came out in many bizarre child abuse cases and abductions. The first case that came to my mind was that of Sybil.
Ugh, childhood freaky movie I'm afraid. Thanks DD, that being said, are there any adult issues anyone is aware of at that level or bio-chemical reaons that would happen? Is it a comparative issue to other cases?

[SuziQ]

Video and entire statements at the below link:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S428411.shtml?cat=1

Police, FBI break silence about Jenkins case

STATEMENT FROM SPECIAL AGENT RICHARD KOLKO, WITH THE FBI HEADQUARTERS IN WASHINGTON DC:

STATEMENT FROM THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT:

STATEMENT FROM LA CROSSE POLICE CHIEF EDWARD KONDRACKI:

[SuziQ]

I need to go back and watch the videos because I thought it was the spot where they believe the bodies went into the water is where the graffitti and smiley faces are. That would explain why local LE never saw them..they never traced back to the origin of where they went into water.

Help..someone correct me if I am wrong.

You are correct. That's one of the main points that the reporter and the detectives made.

Thanks for the info regarding holding urine as a form of abuse. That's interesting and makes more sense than it's related to self induced stress of somesort.

[SeriouslySearching]

KSTP
April 29, 2008

Full article: click here (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S428484.shtml?cat=1)Thanks for posting. My heart just sank when I read this.

[SeriouslySearching]

STATEMENT FROM LA CROSSE POLICE CHIEF EDWARD KONDRACKI:
It is also important to note that no symbols of a smiley face were discovered at any of the La Crosse drowning cases.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S428411.shtml?cat=1 That is correct...there weren't any discovered because they were not looking for the point of entry of these bodies.

[DeltaDawn]

Well , after the facts of alcohol as in BAC, I posted earlier, I'd like to ask the chief in LaCrosse how someone with a BAC of .44 can even walk much less make it to the river and plunge themselves in. At .44 regardless of weight or height they would have been on the verge of collapse.

[ohwell1971]

Didn't someone mention an older game they used to play?


The other game(s) that came before are Grand Theft Auto.

[SuziQ]

Now posted on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/29/dnt.wi.smiley.face.killer.wtmj

Killer drowning college men? 1:10
Affiliate WTMJ reports on the drowning death of a college student that may be linked to others across the U.S.

[Trino]

So, how many more "drownings" will it take before the detectives are believed?

[SeriouslySearching]

Like they told the one father...until they can get a photo or a video of them being placed in the water.

[fran]

KSTP
April 29, 2008

Full article: click here (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S428484.shtml?cat=1)

I hate to hear this. This is like seven or eight this school year.

:(
fran

[SeriouslySearching]

The other game(s) that came before are Grand Theft Auto.Thanks, Ohwell. I have actually played that one.

I thought one of our posters came up with another game that they used to play on their old computer tho. I will have to go back and find that post. They were going to boot their old computer back up and have a look at the game again. :)

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if all the publicity...if it is a group...will cause them to go after more young men or if it will slow them down.

[Silver~Bell]

I would like to know IF:

Other colleges near rivers, lakes or ponds also have drowning deaths of their male students, all fitting a similar profile...

If for example LSU, with its ponds/small lakes, has these drownings, because Lord knows it has the drinking, I'd like to know..and I can name other colleges too near lakes/rivers and they are not reporting these drownings...

BECAUSE we ought to be seeing "X" amount of drownings per year at colleges due to drinking and falling into water, and the victims ought to be heavily male/good gpa/good athletics, or else THIS IS NOT RANDOM what has been happening and it is NOT accidental!!!

[fran]

I wonder if all the publicity...if it is a group...will cause them to go after more young men or if it will slow them down.

The thing is, it was localized for awhile until publicity stopped it. Then it moved to different jurisdictions. That's, IMO, why they haven't been able to connect them.

The reason some serial killers get away with so many is they travel. Think Ted Bundy and so many more. From state to state and county to county.

A couple of years ago there was a string of girls found killed, but they were in entirely different states. It wasn't until one LE officer realized a connection with one or two, they'd originated at the same truck stop in Oklahoma. THEN they connected several spanning out from there.

I'm not sure all of these cases are connected or that some of them weren't accidents, but there appears to be enough similarity that this needs to be thoroughly investigated, leaving no stone unturned. These were NOT throw away people, they had good futures, were responsible, and deserve to be given justice IF that's what it turns out to be.

JMHO
fran

[SeriouslySearching]

I can honestly say here at our Universities, we haven't had any deaths occur where men accidently end up drowning after a night of going out which are unexplained. We did have one college student who decided to raft after a heavy rainstorm and was swept away. We have the Arkansas river running through the city within a few short blocks of our most popular college bar hangouts. There are no fences or restraints on the banks. If a student ends up not going back to their digs...they are most likely in jail here...not dead.

[fran]

I would like to know IF:

Other colleges near rivers, lakes or ponds also have drowning deaths of their male students, all fitting a similar profile...

If for example LSU, with its ponds/small lakes, has these drownings, because Lord knows it has the drinking, I'd like to know..and I can name other colleges too near lakes/rivers and they are not reporting these drownings...

BECAUSE we ought to be seeing "X" amount of drownings per year at colleges due to drinking and falling into water, and the victims ought to be heavily male/good gpa/good athletics, or else THIS IS NOT RANDOM what has been happening and it is NOT accidental!!!

I've seen comments on forums from people that live in some of these 'rivered, college' towns that say they have NOT experienced this type of thing. So, I think at the least, the matter should be investigated completely.

There is too much of a coincidence to ignore these cases. We owe it to these young men and their families. Anyone wanting to argue with this, should think how THEY would feel if one of these young guys was their son. :(

We've come too far and there are TOO MANY to ignore this. What IF we waited another five years and there's another 20 or 40 and we realize they were right all along? After all, this serial killer theory has been around for at least six years that I know of.

Q.How many have disappeared and drowned since 2002?

A.From my list, I count about 40. Not that they're ALL connected, but what if 1/2 are?

JMHO
fran

[SuziQ]

Finally some LE is going to compare notes with Gannon and Duarte. I brought the below info over from the Nicholas Garza thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2174266&postcount=196

Video at the below link:

http://www.wptz.com/video/16065613/index.html

[Ang50]

Greta has coverage on this coming up...

(Greta's a WI girl!!)

[DeltaDawn]

I think whomever is the master mind behind this..and I believe there is one person calling the shots, with many sub-cultures below him in different areas of the country, he is relishing in this news coverage..and is communicating they should be doing the same.

I also believe that there will be more to come..this is too good for him to pass up at this point.

I also believe that art imitates life..meaning what great artist, playwrites, and novelists have written has been an expression of what others have felt..be it compassion, fear, kindness or anger. Therefore when we know that artists can conceive of these ideas..think what a person comsumed by these ideas might carry out.

Then think of Charles Manson, Son of Sam, any serial killer, or the common murderer..they exist, they are real, they are out there.

Then think of the women who write to these scum in jail..and even marry them while in jail...now you are onto the wave length of the followers..the worker bees in the organization of things. It's not too much of a stretch from there to believe that networks of evil, helped by internet communication, exist in our society.

[SuziQ]

Greta has coverage on this coming up...

(Greta's a WI girl!!)

She sure is. Let us know what is said. Thanks!

[SeriouslySearching]

Greta has coverage on this coming up...

(Greta's a WI girl!!)Thanks for the heads up, Ang~ I have been waiting on your WI girl to give this one a go! :blowkiss:

[shadowraiths]

Hmmm... this is interesting...

From the comments section (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621) of the ABC story, Detectives Chase 'Smiley Face' Murder Mystery (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621)just a comment to anyone who posted things regarding giving the police department "a break" for concluding these deaths as accidental "drownings"...i'm pretty sure that when high levels of GHB are found in pretty much ALL of their autopsy reports that something other than college boys getting drunk and "falling" is going on. And when experts said it was NOT physically possible for one of the boys bodies to be in the position that he was when he was found if he simply fell in the river the night he disappeared i believe that should throw up a red flag too. i'm not going on facts from this television show, i know, from personal experience, much of the "behind the scenes" info and please believe me when i say that there are many things that happened in LaCrosse and Minneapolis that the general public doesn't know (and may never know) that should've been HUGE red flags to law enforcement from the very beginning...so this is just one situation in which i will NEVER give law enforcement a "break" on because they didn't do their jobs correctly from the beginning...these deaths are connected...they don't give away everything they know to the public...these peoples focus is college aged men...in college towns...athletic build...ones who get lost from the group (usually because they're too wasted - probably because of the drug slipped to them - and want to 'head home early' or just end up getting kicked out of the bar because of their behavior)...and always, ALWAYS in a college town by a river. Please just be aware, and the next time you happen to be out for the night, stay close...i know guys make fun of girls for the whole "buddy system" thing, but it could end up saving your life. Don't let your guys out of your sight alone...or you could end up just like these friends of Chris Jenkins, or Chuck Blatz, or Nathan Kapfer, or Jeff Geesey, or Nathan Herr, or any of the other men...friends who thought nothing of it at the time, but will always look back and wonder "What if?"

Posted by: megie294 Apr-28Direct link to above comment: click here (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=user&loginCode=%7B7FDD3A57-38E9-4419-8C76-5CD422F2E9F5%7D)

(emphasis added, mind)

[SuziQ]

Thanks Shado, that is interesting. I would love to know what the poster knows. Regarding the GHB, and I may have read it posted here, that most ME's do not test for it. I wonder how many cases here weren't tested for GHB?

[SeriouslySearching]

It is too bad that they probably were not tested for GHB before being laid to rest in many of these cases. It wouldn't be a normal test to be done in an autopsy as far as I know.

Interesting post tho.

[Ang50]

They did test for GHB with Luke Homan, it was negative.

I believe that we read that it degrades over time, though, and would be untraceable after time, especially in water.

[dark_shadows]

Finally some LE is going to compare notes with Gannon and Duarte. I brought the below info over from the Nicholas Garza thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2174266&postcount=196

Video at the below link:

http://www.wptz.com/video/16065613/index.html
As I said on that thread, Middlebury Police do not believe that there is a connection. I believe that they are wrong. Watch the video because it is not as it appears when you post that LE is finally going to do something.

[Silver~Bell]

Fran I agree, even if "only" 1/2 of these are connected, it points to some nefarious things going on...I'm very disappoint in the FBI this time...

:-(

...othewise we'd be seeing the amount of drownings at all lakeside/riverside colleges being about the same number and we'd be seeing a much greater variety of college men who drowned...also just young people NOT attending college who hang at the college bars would drown in about the same numbers if this were just accidents...

You know, in science they say "When you hear hoofbeats being you, think horses, not zebras" but honestly, I am seeing zebras this time...also, it spooks me I wrote that, this whole thing reminds me of a very sophisticated version of the Zebra Killings...

[Ang50]

Greta's on...

Paint color and size of smiley face varied - it was found in 12 different places.

Chris Jenkin's death only ONE changed to homicide. The rest all ruled accidental.

"we know who killed Chris" and who was involved in Chris's murder.

We know names of those who were involved in other murders. - two statements from investigator for Jenkins family.

Josh Snell's brother on next....

[SeriouslySearching]

The one thing I picked up on with the PI on Greta just now was that he said it had more to do with the "demographics" of the group and not the rivers etc. He also let it slip that the person they believed killed Chris is in jail right now, but the others aren't.

[Silver~Bell]

Argh, the edit button won't work, what are my kids doing on the other computer, they are messing me up...should read "hoofbeats BEHIND you" not "being you."

Sorry

[DeltaDawn]

I caught that on Nic's thread too Dark Shadows. Which leads me to question why so many local LE 's don't want to admit something much more sinister is in play here. I am glad Nic's Mom is persuing this with the detectives.

I read all the comments on the news articles on these cases..and most locals seem to believe that something wicked this way comes..why can't the local LE see that? And if locals know this is an unusal number of deaths in that area due to drunkeness in the wee hours..why doesn't LE see that? I mean yes people drown..not but not at that hour of the night.

As always thank you so much DarkShadows for all your efforts in the local searches in your area. You are a blessing to all. God bless you.

[Ang50]

Josh's brother is saying the police say that Josh made up the story about people chasing him in order to impress the girl whose house he was going to. **HELLO - how many people making up stories end up dead??**

5,000 drowning deaths per year across the country, accidents are most common killer of young people. Some guy talking about how parents are grasping at reasons other than alcohol/accidents for these deaths.

At one time on Websleuths, I did the research to figure out how many people died in WI from drowning. (It's either on Homan's or Dion's thread.) In essence, although LE acts like this is a very common occurrence, it is not.

[SuziQ]

As I said on that thread, Middlebury Police do not believe that there is a connection. I believe that they are wrong. Watch the video because it is not as it appears when you post that LE is finally going to do something.


I don't think I posted that they will do "something". It appears to me that Middlebury LE is at least willing to listen and compare notes to what Duarte and Gannon have. Which is a hell of alot more than other agencies have done. What I posted was based on the following: The reporter says that Middlebury Police are reaching out to the two detectives. LE says so far they see no connection and nowhere do they state they are not interested. The website caption says "Police Look For Links Between Missing Middlebury Student And String Of Killings"

[DeltaDawn]

Josh's brother is saying the police say that Josh made up the story about people chasing him in order to impress the girl whose house he was going to. **HELLO - how many people making up stories end up dead??**

5,000 drowning deaths per year across the country, accidents are most common killer of young people. Some guy talking about how parents are grasping at reasons other than alcohol/accidents for these deaths.

At one time on Websleuths, I did the research to figure out how many people died in WI from drowning. (It's either on Homan's or Dion's thread.) In essence, although LE acts like this is a very common occurrence, it is not.


Why would Josh even do that..he was simply back in town to attend the wedding of a friend. That makes no sense he had no one to impress at 2 am. And then he doesn't even make it to her house..how impressive is that? The LE are full of bull in that remark.

[SeriouslySearching]

Dr. Baden threw me for a loop on Greta. Everything he said and the way he said it leads me to believe that he is leaning towards accidental drowning due to alcohol, too. (Which may mean he found nothing of evidence in the autopsy he just performed thus far...until the tox screen comes back, but he never mentioned that case.)

LE seems to have a habit of twisting words in certain cases to fit their own theory. They did the same thing in Mike Barbiere's case. In Josh's case, it is ridiculous to think he "made up that story so the girl wouldn't be mad at him later". WTH? What kind of people are we dealing with in LE that could not only believe it, but say it with a straight face?

[Ang50]

Found it on the Matt Kruziki thread -

I said in refuting the accident theory::::

I'll give you the best stat that I know of: In WI, in any given year, there are 1-2 deaths by accidental drowning in water (non-pool).

That means that each year in WI when a young man drowns in the Mississippi after drinking in downtown La Crosse, he accounts for 50-100% of that stat for WI for the entire year. There are a number of other towns in WI with drunk college kids and rivers, yet La Crosse seems to be the only community in which this happens on a regular basis. I went to UW, where there are fraternities located on the lake, the student union is on the lake, and believe me, people get DRUNK. Yet, the last student to drown was a suicide in 1997.

(Note that I now stand corrected - a male student did drown in Lake Mendota in 2005 or so.)

[shadowraiths]

The one thing I picked up on with the PI on Greta just now was that he said it had more to do with the "demographics" of the group and not the rivers etc.
I missed this bit, but if they really believe this, they're losing more points in the credibility department. Imho, they're coming across like they're grasping at straws to buttress a theory that already presents a very slim possibility (i.e., the nation wide smiley killer gang). Not good at all. Esp when they could have just as easily pointed to statistical probabilities. For example, while some of these cases are very likely accidents, the number and geographical concentration alone indicates that some of them may be related. Also, Dr. Baden's comment (which I did catch) seemed biased too. Yes, alcohol related drownings are quite common. What he failed to mention however is that the majority of those drownings involve water sports. (CDC report on drowning (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm))

[SeriouslySearching]

See! They are relying on stats which are not accurately depicting the scenarios. The Stats they are using are as a whole and not divided up into accidental drownings which happen while people were around such as boating, swimming, or diving accidents. We all know that those happen more frequently to men of that age group when related to alcohol...but they happen in the summertime, usually in the daytime or early evening, and the men were probably part of a larger group enjoying water activities.

LOL Shadow~ We posted at the same time. I will go read up on the CDC stats.

[SuziQ]

True SS, who wants to go swimming by themselves in a freezing river at 2am?

[SuziQ]

The PI that was on Greta, was he representing the families or was he a talking head?

[SeriouslySearching]

He is the PI for Chris Jenkin's family who has been working on that case.

[Truly]

Yes, and in addition, when a person is drowning, it is quite common for the people who rush in trying to rescue that person to also drown. So the drowning statistics for recreational swimmers sadly often include not only the initial victim, but also two or three rescuers.That is because a drowning person who is even barely alert will fight with all of their power for a breath. No evidence of struggle is a very odd sign in a drowning victim.

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't see them losing credibility because of the PI's statement. (The Detectives weren't on the program and weren't there to verify what he was saying.) That being said, what I think he was getting at is that the large river was only a convenience to where these occurred, but they are not concentrated in WI or MI because of the river where the men were found, but because of the location of these people who are doing this.

[SuziQ]

He is the PI for Chris Jenkin's family who has been working on that case.

Thanks SS! I hope Greta puts a video up.

[SeriouslySearching]

Well, even without a video...we should have the transcript soon. :)

[SeriouslySearching]

That is why we need to connect the dots around the country in other places. Are they clustered in other areas? Besides NY...are we seeing any other pattern emerge?

What are the various groupings in the places they are already investigating? Which drug gangs run there? Are there any Fraternities that have been thrown off campuses around the country?

Has there been any mention if these men were every in Boy Scouts? Eagle Scouts draw public acknowledgement across the country.

[Truly]

Greta's on...

Paint color and size of smiley face varied - it was found in 12 different places.


I had read elsewhere that more than twelve were found, some with horns, some not. Has only one photo been released? Also, has anyone deciphered the words next to the smiley face in the photo thread? TIA!

[DeltaDawn]

The one thing I picked up on with the PI on Greta just now was that he said it had more to do with the "demographics" of the group and not the rivers etc. He also let it slip that the person they believed killed Chris is in jail right now, but the others aren't.


That is not accurate from the PI that Chris' killer is in jail. Chris's parents have stated over and over again that these people need to be caught because they will continue to do this. Everywhere I have ever read about Chris' case, including the family site for him, they have never mentioned that the killer has been caught..only that he needs to be. That PI is not telling the truth.

[fran]

Re: Private Detective on Greta:

FWIW, he said they've identified 30 people being involved. (I believe he meant, killers!) The ones NOT IN CUSTODY are the ones the public needs to worry about!

JMHO
fran

[DeltaDawn]

Re: Private Detective on Greta:

FWIW, he said they've identified 30 people being involved. (I believe he meant, killers!) The ones NOT IN CUSTODY are the ones the public needs to worry about!

JMHO
fran

Thanks Fran that makes more sense then.

[SeriouslySearching]

He didn't come right out and say it...but Greta maneuvered him around to it. He said there were others involved who were not in jail..indicating there was the one in jail. Before that, he said he wouldn't get into it when asked specifically if the one responsible for Chris' killing was in jail.

I believe if you will read between the lines, you might find he is correct. He did not act alone even in Chris' death so others do remain at large.

Right! Thanks, Fran. :)

[SuziQ]

I had read elsewhere that more than twelve were found, some with horns, some not. Has only one photo been released? Also, has anyone deciphered the words next to the smiley face in the photo thread? TIA!

And I think I read 22, so who knows at this point. The words next to the smiley face says-Evil Happy Smiley Face Man.

[txsvicki]

I had read elsewhere that more than twelve were found, some with horns, some not. Has only one photo been released? Also, has anyone deciphered the words next to the smiley face in the photo thread? TIA!

I'm not finding the photo thread. Does anyone know where it is or have a link?

[SeriouslySearching]

So now the question: If one is in jail..why and where?

[DeltaDawn]

I'm not finding the photo thread. Does anyone know where it is or have a link?

Here it is:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64110

[SeriouslySearching]

LOL I need to beg a Mod to put stickies on some of those. :) Sorry.

[SuziQ]

Bumping this up about the number of smiley faces.

22 smiley faces were found.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292008/news/regionalnews/killer_gang_drowns_40__sleuths_108571.htm

(snip)

Gannon said McNeill's death was similar to that of Lawrence Andrews, 22, who vanished on New Year's Eve in 2006 after drinking near Grand Central Terminal.
His body was found Feb. 12, 2007, also off the 69th Street pier.
Gannon said that after studying the water flow and land contour, he concluded the similarities weren't coincidental.
In both cases, he believes the victims were drugged with GHB, a date-rape drug, and then placed in the water.

Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."

[shadowraiths]

LOL I need to beg a Mod to put stickies on some of those. :) Sorry.
I just did... beg, that is... for the following:Timelines (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64058)
Similarities (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64051)
Photos (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64110)
Persons of Interest (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64096)

[SuziQ]

So now the question: If one is in jail..why and where?

Could they be referring to John Lilly or Jaramy and Luis Alford? These guys were already on the radar. Maybe that's what LE means by there not being any new evidence?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64096

[RR0004]

Ang-thanks for posting about the Lake Mendota drowning? Do you know how they ruled that?

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.rememberchrisjenkins.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=72


This is part of a message left for Chris, from his sister, at the family site.

SNIP/
Chris is vindicated and we now know that the people that took his life took it for sport. How exactly do you deal with that? No answer is a good answer but these people just did it just because. He would have NEVER been put in this situation if it weren't for the Lone Treehttp://www.rememberchrisjenkins.com/forums/icon_smile_angry.gif. A Lone Tree employee had his coat, cell phone, wallet, and they kicked him out for SIMPLY NO REASON and did not provide him with his belongings. They sent him into Satan's den with nothing but a paper thin costume.
/SNIP

This is another message left on the family site:

SNIP/
HI- I didnt know Chris but I wanted to say that I understand what your family is going through. I was watching the news tonight and the man they think may have killed Chris is the same man who murdered my brother last year. This has been a long horrible year for us as we try to understand why our brother was murdered.
My heart goes out to your family. I hope that your family is not upset for me posting this.
/SNIP

[kellync]

BIG lurker here. Friend of Justin Gaines' family. No matter what, this is at least something that brings the cases to the forefront, and I want to thank all of you for doing this. Just putting each case together and doing what WBs do, I am humbled and so grateful. No matter what happens, you guys ROCK. 1,000 Thank You's..---K

[SuziQ]

I apologize to whoever posted this last night as they deserve credit for finding this. It's stuck with me so I'm going to repost the info. Jaramy and Luis Alford murdered Chris Miller who coincidentally owned a van. Who knows, maybe Chris Miller could have been involved with the other cases as well. And maybe, that got him killed.

http://wcco.com/topstories/Cedar.Rapids.Iowa.2.352667.html

(snips)
Two men suspected in a Minnesota slaying were arrested Friday in eastern Iowa after allegedly abandoning a stolen van in the Cedar River.

The men are accused of stealing a van Thursday from a burning mobile home in New Brighton, Minn., where authorities found Douglas Miller, 32, dead inside. Miller was not killed by the fire, officials said.

http://wcco.com/topstories/Jaramy.Lynn.Alford.2.354846.html

(snip)
The brothers had been living with Miller but were about to be evicted because they were stealing from him and not paying rent, witnesses told police. They were later arrested in Iowa after police recovered Miller's van.

ETA: some articles refer to Chris Miller and Douglas Miller.

[Truly]

And I think I read 22, so who knows at this point. The words next to the smiley face says-Evil Happy Smiley Face Man.
Thanks SuziQ! I could kinda sorta make out that part. What is written below that? It looks like it is signed.:waitasec:

Edit, sorry, it was the Man part that looks like something else to me. Mann, maybe, and an infinity symbol below? I dunno. Has there only been this one photo released?

[SuziQ]

BIG lurker here. Friend of Justin Gaines' family. No matter what, this is at least something that brings the cases to the forefront, and I want to thank all of you for doing this. Just putting each case together and doing what WBs do, I am humbled and so grateful. No matter what happens, you guys ROCK. 1,000 Thank You's..---K

Please don't be a lurker and join in. I can't imagine the pain family and friends are going through, and all because they want a simple answer. Hopefully an answer will come soon.

[SuziQ]

DD, from your above post:

A Lone Tree employee had his coat, cell phone, wallet, and they kicked him out for SIMPLY NO REASON and did not provide him with his belongings. They sent him into Satan's den with nothing but a paper thin costume.

That explains the odd reaction from the bouncers. they went beyond just kicking him out of the bar.

[SuziQ]

Thanks SuziQ! I could kinda sorta make out that part. What is written below that? It looks like it is signed.:waitasec:

Edit, sorry, it was the Man part that looks like something else to me. Mann, maybe, and an infinity symbol below? I dunno. Has there only been this one photo released?

IMO, it's Man. and I can't make out the rest.

[cecileew]

That was his girlfriend that had is cell phone and wallet, right? She was an employee

[Blink34]

BIG lurker here. Friend of Justin Gaines' family. No matter what, this is at least something that brings the cases to the forefront, and I want to thank all of you for doing this. Just putting each case together and doing what WBs do, I am humbled and so grateful. No matter what happens, you guys ROCK. 1,000 Thank You's..---K

Hi Kelly, hope you and Justin's family are well. As promised, I sent you a list of questions comprised of those WS'rs wanted to clarify-did you get?

[Blink34]

I apologize to whoever posted this last night as they deserve credit for finding this. It's stuck with me so I'm going to repost the info. Jaramy and Luis Alford murdered Chris Miller who coincidentally owned a van. Who knows, maybe Chris Miller could have been involved with the other cases as well. And maybe, that got him killed.

http://wcco.com/topstories/Cedar.Rapids.Iowa.2.352667.html

(snips)
Two men suspected in a Minnesota slaying were arrested Friday in eastern Iowa after